00:00:18 but i probably messed something up 00:00:40 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@208.49.99.251] has quit [] 00:01:09 salex: yeah, you're generating n randoms 00:01:16 you only need one 00:01:54 salex: what Tordek said, and you can also use `when x return y' 00:02:56 salex: plus why not use the :key parameter for reduce? and perhaps `+/2' rather than `+' 00:05:49 mjf [n=mjf@r6y176.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:06:21 whups, yeah the random should have been in a with 00:07:09 but adeht, i don't find any particular gain to wither of those 00:07:23 stylistic, the when x return y, bit 00:08:06 Tordek annotated #68135 with "using with" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68135#3 00:08:19 i guess it's pretty clear either way 00:08:44 but i should have used the :key param, sure 00:09:09 brain fart, that. 00:09:24 Hello. Somebody (my stupid lisp interpreter;) just told me that these two expressions are equivalent: "(quote . (((quote . a) . b) . c))" and "'((quote . a) . b) . c" ... can this be true? 00:10:03 the latter makes no sense 00:10:30 That's exactly what I wanted to hear... ;) 00:11:05 Tordek: yeah, that's basically it. 00:11:16 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:11:23 Bye, thanks. 00:11:25 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y176.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 00:11:33 although i don't like `random' as a var name ;) 00:12:33 Too bad mjf couldn't copy-and-paste... 00:13:03 who knows.. maybe "his" Lisp interpreter is buggy 00:13:27 obviously, he meant (equal (quote (((quote . a) . b) . c)) '(((quote . a) . b) . c)) 00:13:28 Tordek pasted "looping" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68138 00:13:44 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:55 is there a way to remove the explicit fors there? 00:13:59 or, in other words 00:14:07 Yes. 00:14:25 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 00:14:32 given a list like '(1 2 3 4), I want '((1 2) (2 3) (3 4)) 00:14:58 (a last (4 nil) wouldn't hurt; that's what it currently returns) 00:15:13 (defun duplicate (list) (loop for (word1 word2) on list while word2 collect (list word1 word2))) 00:15:32 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-43-247.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 00:15:36 pjb: nope 00:15:50 (duplicate '(1 2 3 4)) --> ((1 2) (2 3) (3 4)) 00:15:51 pjb: (car word1) (car word2) 00:15:51 -!- DanielRM_ [n=daniel@cpc2-grim8-0-0-cust248.nott.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:16:11 -!- DanielRM [n=daniel@cpc2-grim8-0-0-cust248.nott.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:16:20 or not :/ me sleepy 00:16:23 eh 00:16:25 wtf? 00:16:34 it didn't work when I tried it >_> 00:16:38 thanks :P 00:17:23 Tordek: (mapcar 'list list (rest list)) 00:18:01 Xach: Nice 00:19:04 xristos [n=xristos@93-97-209-110.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:19:47 øæ 00:20:03 that's the spirit, Xach ;) 00:20:14 anyway, bbiaw 00:20:22 bye, salex 00:20:40 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:20:45 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-117-107.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:20:59 Whatever character zpiro posted is screwing with weechat 00:21:11 lol 00:21:20 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:21:33 i blame this mac terminal window 00:21:59 Well a clear fixed it. 00:22:05 *Draggor* gets back to lispy things 00:23:23 Any one have an old linux box that doesn't have sse2? 00:23:52 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-118-240.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:23:53 cant you just compile whatever without sse2 support? 00:23:58 Mine has sse but not sse2. 00:24:13 -!- veritius [n=po@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 00:24:15 AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2200+ 00:25:02 *Draggor* has a pentium MMX box, and two PIII boxes 00:25:37 and here's me feeling depressed because I don't have 8 cores :( 00:25:52 jlpeters [n=james@c-71-231-200-164.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:22 sykopomp: I'm waiting for the next step after 8 cores to upgrade... 00:27:17 yeah, its much cooler to have 15 cores instead of 7 idle cores :p 00:27:23 pjb: I'm itching for an upgrade. Not like I can afford it, but 8 core boxes are pretty cheap nowadays 00:27:27 *idle 00:27:34 8 cores is just 4 times over 2 cores, not impressive, 1024 cores are more interesting 00:27:56 makes virtualization nice 00:28:02 neural networks tend to keep cores busy. 00:34:38 all you guys with multicore boxes need to be working on multithreading the language shootout programs =p 00:34:52 Well, if anyone wants to run a test for me, download the cmucl linux sse2 tar balls from common-lisp.net and see if it runs. 00:35:34 rtoym: on non-sse2 machine? 00:36:00 *rtoym* is quite happy with his core 2 duo machines. We don't need no stinkin' quad core +! 00:36:17 stassats`: That would be best. I already know the sse2 build works on sse2. :-) 00:37:22 ok, my 486 doesn't want to boot... 00:37:35 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-78-193.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:30 Oh. Hmm. Not sure if a 486 will work. I need a machine with a cpuid instruction. Can't remember if 486 has that or not. 00:38:40 teeZ_3 [n=ase23azz@p5115-ipbfp1503fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:39:53 I'm reasonably sure they don't. 00:40:22 *hefner* is less sure, the longer he thinks about it. 00:40:51 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-117-107.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:52 In that case, it might still be interesting to see. Just have to be sure to use -fpu x87 option when running cmucl. 00:42:21 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 00:43:58 sigh, this laptop with 486 doesn't work after i trod on it 00:44:17 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.147] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:44:28 -!- duranain [n=duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:43 they don't like that. 00:44:55 At the moment, I just say "sorry" to people who don't have sse2 and want to run Clozure CL. I don't suppose that's a totally reasonable position to cling to... 00:45:07 I don't think it's unreasonable. 00:45:11 screw'em. 00:46:15 ths_ [n=ths@X44f1.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:47:40 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.83.209] has joined #lisp 00:47:49 What about sse3? That could speed up complex arithmetic, if you're into that sort of thing. 00:48:18 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:52:24 CCL isn't exactly into handing floating-point arithmetic speedily. The compiler's scared to death to leave anything in an fp register, and won't rest until fp values are safely stored in memory. :-/ 00:54:02 Really? 00:54:11 There's definitely room for improvement. 00:54:25 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:50 Then adding x87 support would be way easier if everything is spilled to memory right away. :-) 00:55:37 hidan [n=hidan@212.100.69.12] has joined #lisp 00:56:05 I exaggerate a little bit, but compilers like Python make CCL look pretty bad in the floating-point performance area. 00:57:57 -!- ths [n=ths@X6ac4.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:15 Also, immediate single-floats on 64-bit platforms helps. 00:58:34 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:58:44 sudoer [n=jtoy@58.62.4.250] has joined #lisp 00:58:52 The fact that CCL has immediate single-floats, I mean. 01:00:43 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:12 *rtoym* once thought about immediate short floats for 32-bit archs. 01:03:08 Old MCL had them. 01:03:56 Really? Did you just basically do single-floats with a few bits lopped off? 01:04:39 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:04:40 Something like a sign bit + 5 bit exponent + 23 bit significand. (plus 3 tag bits). 01:05:35 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:06:18 (I wasn't around then.) 01:07:16 -!- booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:09:29 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.83.209] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:01 I have a crazy scheme floating around in my head (that will likely never get used) for immediate word-sized floats and signed and unsigned word-sized integers, plus no-extra-overhead immutable cons cells, by carrying around two extra bits of type information per word 01:10:01 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:11:27 -!- xristos [n=xristos@93-97-209-110.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:51 rme: Did it do floating-point in software then? My idea was IEEE single-float, but the low 3 bits of the mantissa were used for the tag bits. 01:12:38 chandler: Hello! 32-bit or 64-bit words? 01:12:47 rtoym: howdy 01:13:41 It depends on your processor. The crazy idea was for a pure C VM that didn't assume too much about its environment. 01:14:08 The two extra tag bits would denote float, unsigned int, immutable cons, or "other" 01:14:08 rtoym: It was software. Since most Macs didn't have floating-point hardware, I think it made sense---my impression is that the Apple SANE numeric libraries were slow. 01:14:57 -!- bpr [n=user@cpe-72-226-72-222.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:15:43 if "other", the high four bits of the value are a tag. if the high bit is 1, it's a signed int; the other eight tag values are for the usual suspects. The remaining 28 or 60 bits are for an index into a heap; if you assume that all allocations are word-aligned, you can get back another two bits of that for a total of 1GB maximum heap size on a 32-bit system. 01:16:10 It's a bit like the MIT Scheme tagging system, but with usablely large fixnums and a decent-sized heap. 01:17:06 oh, and on cons cells those high four bits are the two-bit tags of the car and the cdr (which explains why they're immutable conses!) 01:18:19 This is a high tagging scheme? Didn't clisp or something do that? 01:18:51 I don't know much if anything about the clisp implementation. MIT Scheme does that, but uses six bits for the tag, and the remaining 26 bits use byte addressing, not word addressing. 01:20:00 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:21:31 I think I remember reading that NIL used a similar idea. 01:21:50 ... useablely? That's a sign that I need to quit hacking for the night :-) 01:22:49 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@u-7-077.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:23:51 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:24:32 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:30 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:25:50 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-acd72b0351f6d91f] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:26:08 -!- hidan [n=hidan@212.100.69.12] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:26:09 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:57 Aha, here's the paper where it was mentioned. ftp://ftp.cs.arizona.edu/reports/1993/TR93-27.ps 01:27:13 "Representing Type Information in Dynamically Typed Languages" 01:27:37 Anyway, the idea was that a scheme like this combined with a compacting mark + sweep GC could work well on some of the smaller 32-bit MMU-less processors, especially if you were satisfied with -2^32 to 2^32-1 for your integers and single floats 01:28:20 ---_____ 01:28:40 morse code or ferret? 01:28:45 *chandler* guesses the latter 01:28:53 rme: neat, I'll have a look 01:29:29 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:30:06 sorry guys .. he managed to change windows, type some, and hit enter. 01:30:35 ooh. next he'll be shell-scripting 01:31:31 You might find it interesting, chandler; it's a survey of various tagging schemes and other type-representation techniques. 01:32:10 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:52 it looks horrible on screen; I'll print it out tomorrow. thanks! 01:34:49 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.10] has joined #lisp 01:37:22 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["Some days you are the pigeon, other days the statue."] 01:37:51 Hm. I am scrolling through it and I don't see any mention of an out-of-band tagging scheme like this. The two-stage tag that's described is like Python's lowtag/widetag. 01:38:01 Anyway, there is quite a lot of neat other stuff here. Thanks again. 01:39:52 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:54 chandler, by the way, there is very little merit to MIT Scheme's tagging scheme. The design that went behind it was basically: `We have this spiffy m68k machine that is capable of an address space of a whole twenty-four bits. That leaves eight bits left over any word for us to use as we please.' 01:42:36 Ten years later: `Gosh, twenty-four bits is awfully small, but this is hard to change now. At least we can free up two of those bits, which weren't being used by anything important anyway.' 01:45:22 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:41 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:50 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:57 Riastradh: heh. I merely point to it because it's the only cached example in my brain for "high tag + heap index" 01:53:30 Cymew [n=user@d193-205-190.home3.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:01 The tags aren't especially interesting themselves. Variable-length data structures, such as vectors or compiled code blocks or floating-point vectors (which look exactly like floating-point numbers, which are really just one-element floating-point vectors) have a manifest word at the beginning telling how long they are. 01:55:04 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:35 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.71.37] has joined #lisp 02:01:17 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.71.37] has left #lisp 02:03:05 what *are* vectors in lisp? 02:03:28 one dimensional arrays 02:03:36 clhs vector 02:03:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_vector.htm 02:04:59 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:07 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:54 *drewc* rsyncs like a madman. 02:07:20 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.78.214] has joined #lisp 02:13:46 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:16 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-43-247.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:18:08 if I do (let ((word (find value list))) (push othervalue word)), it doesn't work right? 02:20:03 Define `work'. 02:20:04 right, word must be a list 02:20:31 If VALUE, LIST, and OTHERVALUE are defined, then any conformant Common Lisp system will happily evaluate that expression. 02:20:58 eh, I guess it won't work as a minimized explanation... 02:21:08 PUSH doesn't care what value was stored in the place specified as its second operand. 02:21:32 and it's actually (find word list :key #'car), so it's a list 02:21:51 That expression will have no externally visible effects, but it will return a new list which you had not formerly encountered. 02:23:21 Riastradh: I do want to update list, to have the valued pushed into the proper place; ie (setf *blah* ((1 2) (2 3))) (func 1 *blah*) *blah* => ((1 somevalue 2) (2 3)) 02:23:45 (somevalue 1 2), actually 02:23:54 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:24:19 So you want to change the CDR of the sublist that you find, then. 02:24:45 yeah, that'd be the best 02:25:11 So do that -- (PUSH (CDR ENTRY)). 02:27:30 hmm, odd 02:27:40 Even! 02:27:45 Or: odd? 02:27:52 I have a function (defun subwords (word) (cdr word)) 02:28:09 but (push (subwords word)) doesn't work 02:28:24 while (push (cdr word)) dies 02:28:25 *does 02:28:37 That's right, because PUSH doesn't care only about the value of the expression (SUBWORDS WORD); it cares more about the *structure* of the form (SUBWORDS WORD), and it doesn't know how to deal with a form whose car is SUBWORDS. 02:28:43 It does, however, know how to deal with a form whose car is CDR. 02:29:21 clhs 5.1.2 02:29:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_ab.htm 02:29:22 This is confusing, because although the form (SUBWORDS WORD) is evaluated at some point in time (in order to find the original list onto which to cons a new element), the *form* means more than just an expression -- it's a place. 02:29:50 so I'm stuck with cdr? (or something other than push, which I guess's better) 02:30:17 SETF, INCF, PUSH, &c., deal in places. You can define the meaning of your own places, too, including ones of the form (SUBWORDS ), in seventeen different ways. 02:30:26 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 02:30:28 (I'm not kidding about the seventeen, unfortunately.) 02:31:57 One simple way is to define the function named (SETF SUBWORDS): (defun (setf subwords) (words list) (setf (cdr list) words)) 02:34:49 Then whenever Common Lisp sees the form (SETF (SUBWORDS LIST) WORDS), it will understand that you want it essentially to evaluate ((SETF SUBWORDS) WORDS LIST), invoking the function just defined. 02:38:00 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:39:19 duranain [n=duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:08 alright, my brain is broken. I can't figure out how to extract cardinal and ordinal numbers from a single-'word' string. 02:40:29 so, to check if "100th" is a correct ordinal 02:40:32 :| 02:42:40 (multiple-value-bind (integer stop) (parse-integer string :junk-allowed t) (list integer (subseq string stop))) 02:42:53 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:43:37 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 02:43:56 sykopomp: I think the rule in english just goes to the last digit. If it's not 1,2 or 3, the ordinal is "th". Or is that what you're asking? 02:44:10 thanks. Sorry for the shameless recipe-begging. 02:44:25 aja: couldn't figure out how to do the splitting properly. heh 02:45:21 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:45:24 sykopomp: you have also to check whether integer is non-nil, and whether stop is not equal to the whole string length 02:46:02 aja: There's also the exception for the 10s place being equal to 1. Always "th" if (= 1 (mod (floor n 10) 10)). 02:46:10 Or something. That's what FORMAT is for. 02:46:33 stassats: yeah. Thanks :) 02:46:36 Non-programming-languages suck. 02:46:44 however, the latter isn't necessarily, the result will be empty string 02:46:47 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-2c8303bef4869b95] has joined #lisp 02:46:56 Piranha__: Heh - forgot the "teenth" stuff. Stupid English base-20 stuff. 02:47:04 -!- Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:47:07 doh, the former isn't necessary too... 02:47:31 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:10 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 02:48:47 -!- egn [n=egn@c-24-15-54-241.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:52:42 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:53:19 -!- Cymew [n=user@d193-205-190.home3.cgocable.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:56:53 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:58:00 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 03:00:00 fugue88 [n=dsowen@fugue88.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #lisp 03:02:45 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 03:03:02 good morning 03:03:23 morning. 03:05:52 hey beach 03:06:36 jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:13:56 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:12 -!- teeZ_3 [n=ase23azz@p5115-ipbfp1503fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:16:31 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:20:43 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:23:11 -!- jlpeters is now known as jlpeters|away 03:31:06 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:31:56 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:35:07 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:39:11 -!- fugue88 [n=dsowen@fugue88.dsl.xmission.com] has quit ["leaving"] 03:39:32 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@140.122.126.12] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:40:04 where does trac store its data? 03:40:42 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["zZZz"] 03:42:10 someplace like .../trac/openmcl/db, if that's what you mean. 03:45:15 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:19 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 03:50:29 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-56-240.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:53:03 CL doesn't have a func to convert a string to a float, right? (like "1.1" to 1.1) Converting a string float to a keyword symbol is a common way in cl (to compare the value)? 03:53:54 tomoyuki28jp: you could write it with parse-integer pretty trivially. 03:54:30 Somewhat surprisingly, there's no standard PARSE-FLOAT. 03:54:30 sykopomp: oh really. I will try that way then. thanks! 03:54:55 rme: yeah, pretty surprising. 03:55:18 I wrote a library to do that. It doesn't handle scientific notation. 03:55:29 I should probably release it, but I'll throw what I have online for now. 03:55:43 The parse-number library might be interesting to mention now. 03:56:08 I will say that mine will parse an arbitrary number of digits, exactly to a rational. 03:56:43 And print the same, with nickle's notation for periods in the decimal part (like the vernicular): 1/3 => "0.{3}" 03:58:29 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:37 mikezor: I was about to say ... 03:59:13 http://www.cliki.net/PARSE-NUMBER 03:59:15 Piranha__: That's cool, I was mainly responding to tomoyuki28jp request for a parse-float 04:00:23 Right. 04:00:56 http://ely.ath.cx/~piranha/etc/cl-exact-float-20081003.tar.gz 04:01:13 rpg__ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 04:02:10 Of course, with a little care, you can use READ-FROM-STRING. 04:04:06 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-7.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 04:05:40 rme: Heh. I didn't realize read-from-string also returned the number of characters read. 04:06:02 Split the string if it has dot, and parse the two string numbers to a integer and join them with a dot would be enough maybe? 04:07:24 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.243.124] has joined #lisp 04:07:37 tomoyuki28jp: Well, as rme implied, something like (values (read-from-string "314.159e-2")) seems to work. 04:08:23 aja: rme: Oh yeah, read-from-string just works nice to me. Thanks! 04:08:35 and sorry that I didn't aware what rme said 04:10:36 why didn't they call it PEPL? 04:11:23 sladegen: Because people giggle when you say "pead-eval-print"? 04:12:18 tomoyuki28jp: If you use READ-FROM-STRING, make sure to bind *READ-EVAL* to NIL. 04:12:30 It does disappoint me that that's not the default. 04:13:20 LEGO PEPL! 04:13:27 lego my eggo 04:15:11 Piranha__: What's gonna happen if the *READ-EVAL* is not NIL? 04:15:44 tomoyuki28jp: If you get your input from a malicious source, they can execute arbitrary code when *READ-EVAL* is T. 04:16:03 *sladegen* meant LOGO, oh just as well. 04:16:07 (read-from-string "#.(print \"I'm executing arbitrary code.\")") 04:16:45 Piranha__: Oh, I see. That is really important matter. Thanks for your advice! 04:17:00 (read-from-string "(FORMAT T \"I am a ninny\")") 04:17:00 For that reason, always keep that in mind whenever you use READ or READ-FROM-STRING. 04:17:15 Piranha__: yes, I will, thanks :) 04:18:25 -!- benny` is now known as benny 04:19:06 http://lispdoc.com/?q=*read-eval*&search=Basic+search has example 04:19:56 phadthai: nice example. I was looking for this right now. thanks. 04:24:45 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:30:53 How can I check a float is a short-float? 04:31:41 oh, maybe type-of? 04:32:11 I think I got it. thanks 04:32:23 or (typep 1.0s0 'short-float) 04:33:09 rme: thanks! 04:33:39 brb 04:34:08 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-56-240.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:35:53 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm73.sigma230.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:37:13 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:21 evening 04:37:24 w 04:37:32 w 04:37:39 w 04:37:39 -!- jlpeters|away is now known as jlpeters 04:37:41 . 04:37:45 slyrus_: g'day. 04:37:47 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:10 -!- jlpeters [n=james@c-71-231-200-164.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:38:32 JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:29 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:44:13 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:49 timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 04:46:07 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:46:11 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 04:46:19 Richard_ [n=Richard@cpc1-grim11-0-0-cust82.nott.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 04:46:35 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:46:35 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:46:40 timor2 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 04:46:59 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:02 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:47:07 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-81.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 04:47:49 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A15E3.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:51:06 kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 04:51:14 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 04:53:02 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 04:53:02 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45674.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:07 -!- jgrant`` [n=user@dsl231-043-085.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:55:07 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:40 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:59:38 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17E405.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:01:29 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 05:03:39 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:03:57 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:45 -!- zbrahead91 [n=Richard@cpc1-grim11-0-0-cust82.nott.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:06:21 *JuanDaugherty* looks for a good article describing bikeshedding 05:07:33 JuanDaugherty: is the canonical reference, I believe. 05:07:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality isn't bad 05:08:00 does AMOP work as a general reference to (at least SBCL's) MOP? 05:08:20 yes and no. 05:08:35 sykopomp: yes. Or you can use closer-mop as a compatibility layer. 05:08:52 it works for me at a conceptual level. 05:08:56 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4425F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:09:08 at a practical level I'd rather work with a code sample. 05:09:23 that and of course Kleenes ancient tome. 05:09:40 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:09:44 pkhuong, yes that's more direct to the term. 05:09:47 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:10:28 as an aside, out of sheer curiosity 05:10:37 is there a way to get prototype-like behavior out of CLOS? 05:18:12 sure 05:18:20 that's what the whole thing is about 05:18:27 it's roll your own OOP 05:18:37 not to mention what lisp is about 05:18:54 should be a package with that fuckus too 05:19:03 *focus 05:19:14 :-) 05:19:37 I have a semi-bad feeling I that I should be doing some wizardry with CLOS 05:19:46 semi-bad because I can't even write macros yet 05:19:47 >_> 05:19:56 how old are you? 05:20:21 ...what does that have to do with anything? 05:20:24 Everyone on #lisp is 31. 05:20:31 <- 54. 05:20:51 I mean, I'm 21, but I find the question to be somewhat odd. 05:20:56 don't think I had written any lisp before 30. 05:20:58 I created the parse-float function here. http://paste.lisp.org/display/68145 Any advice would be appreciated :) 05:21:15 though I had been programming since about 20. 05:21:20 I've been doing this 'programmering' thing for about a year :| 05:22:20 that's not the only thing you'll find odd about me. I have a Norsikan or Klingon in your face aspect. 05:22:45 I thought we were 31 a couple of years back. I guess we're all cartoon characters now. 05:23:40 *JuanDaugherty* looks beyond the birth-to-death JuanDaugherty to the eternal We. 05:23:50 tomoyuki28jp: READ-FROM-STRING can have side effects (interning of symbols), a function called PARSE-FOO usually denoted a function which does the parsins itself. 05:24:13 tomoyuki28jp: Look for PARSE-NUMBER, it's been done before. 05:24:42 pardon the pardons, it's really early and I just woke up 05:24:50 the typos, uhms 05:25:42 tcr: I think some other ppl told me about PARSE-NUMBER too. I will take a look at it. thanks. 05:31:39 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:32:45 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:58 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:37:17 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:38:50 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-84-44-241-87.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:38:51 JuanDaugherty: perhaps some day I will also be good at lisping :P 05:48:33 -!- rpg__ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:29 sykopomp, :) 05:55:24 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:56:45 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:57:13 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.10] has joined #lisp 06:01:11 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:01:29 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-093-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:34 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:06:00 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 06:07:45 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:08:59 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:35 athos [n=philipp@p54B85E98.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:49 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D15B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:11:22 -!- H4nsX [n=H4ns@p57A0D15B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 06:17:25 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 06:22:32 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:25:00 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:28:04 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9BAE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:42:29 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:43:47 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:44:04 gday lispers 06:52:30 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:55:50 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 06:57:00 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 06:59:24 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-114.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 07:01:19 -!- grigorij [n=user@0x5552ef45.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:01:30 grigorij [n=user@0x5552ef45.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:03:32 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:18:02 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:40 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 07:20:06 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:20:49 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:21:57 -!- grigorij [n=user@0x5552ef45.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:27:34 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:33:17 *slyrus* curses edi 07:33:56 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:34:50 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-099-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 07:42:01 -!- duranain [n=duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:42:42 weitz? what'd ei do? 07:44:12 *JuanDaugherty* guesses it's hunchentoot related. 07:49:31 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.243.124] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:37 -!- JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:56:15 -!- cods_ is now known as cods 07:59:37 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:37 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:03:28 -!- kij [n=user@0x50a10237.bynxx12.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:04:55 gigamonkey, switch to Emacs? Blasphemy! 08:05:36 tic ? 08:06:41 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:06:57 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 08:09:02 tic has switched to emacs? 08:09:17 from what ? 08:09:23 vi ? 08:10:41 Yup. 08:10:45 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 08:12:03 better then ed :) 08:12:30 That's why he's hacking away at that there limp lisp ide all the time. 08:12:47 hoh bit of a lag. 08:13:07 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 08:22:05 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B85E98.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:22:51 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 08:26:49 good morning 08:29:36 hello mvilleneuve 08:30:00 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:15 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-43-247.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 08:32:08 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 08:33:15 zbigniew_ [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 08:35:04 morning 08:35:53 lo Xof 08:36:03 hello Xof 08:40:42 *tic* has not switched to emacs 08:41:48 -!- albino_ [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:35 -!- timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [No route to host] 08:45:43 -!- timor2 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:45:53 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:12 timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:46:36 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 08:48:35 matrixiaN [i=matrixia@89-215-122-14.2072964232.ddns-lan.pl.ekk.bg] has joined #lisp 08:49:14 any X11 experts around? 08:49:39 DanielRM [i=5c2b4207@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1599535be91d7370] has joined #lisp 08:56:25 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:58:05 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:38 what are you working on? 09:01:07 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone!"] 09:01:59 slyrus's VISUAL-INFO bug, or more generally how to get current clx and anything that uses xrender to coexist 09:02:47 -!- DanielRM [i=5c2b4207@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1599535be91d7370] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 09:02:50 is there any automatic documentation system for lisp like there is doxygen for c/++/#/java? 09:02:56 yes, lots 09:03:02 a dozen. 09:03:03 they all suck, just like doxygen sucks 09:03:15 ;) so nothing good? maybe a special way to write docstrings? 09:03:31 atdoc is one such system 09:03:48 ecraven: I'm fond of the slightly lo-tech approach taken by sbcl 09:04:04 something which extracts docstrings into texinfo snippets, and then writing a real document which can include those snippets 09:04:19 if you don't like texinfo, use a different format -- but that's the basic approach I like 09:05:14 so there are conventions on how to format your docstring, in order to automatically process it? 09:07:44 mild ones 09:07:53 but tool-specific ones, too 09:09:56 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:28 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:10:36 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:10:48 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:57 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:18 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:27 user__ [n=user@p54925FEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:50 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:14:11 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit 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has joined #lisp 09:15:04 agemo [n=jovdmeer@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:15:04 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 09:15:04 larstobi [n=larstobi@213.151.142.3] has joined #lisp 09:15:04 keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:04 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 09:15:04 [eDu] [n=edu@193.153.239.204] has joined #lisp 09:15:04 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 09:15:04 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 09:16:12 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host172.190-137-247.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:17:01 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:26 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:33 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:17:36 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 09:18:36 Tordek [n=tordek@host172.190-137-247.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 09:19:26 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host172.190-137-247.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Client Quit] 09:19:42 Tordek [n=tordek@host172.190-137-247.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 09:21:31 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633014.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 09:22:04 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633014.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 09:22:31 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-020-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:41 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4556E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:30 ecraven: luis extracted the sbcl texinfo thing: http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/git/texinfo-docstrings/ 09:33:06 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:14 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-141-158.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:54 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:34:46 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-84-44-241-87.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:35 DanielRM [i=5c2b4207@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-789205c39a866683] has joined #lisp 09:40:28 -!- aiur [n=Jan@218.109.78.214] has quit [Client Quit] 09:40:40 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 09:41:09 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 09:42:08 hello 09:42:25 yello 09:44:22 ah, mail duplication. 09:44:22 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45674.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:44:26 I just saw this mail.log entry: 09:44:33 Oct 8 10:19:46 localhost postfix/smtp[7042]: CD6C05DFB7: to=, relay=mx.sourceforge.net[216.34.181.68]:25, delay=1770, delays=1675/0.08/1.6/94, dsn=4.4.2, status=deferred (lost connection with mx.sourceforge.net[216.34.181.68] while sending end of data -- message may be sent more than once) 09:44:42 so that might be the cause of this. 09:45:51 -!- spiderbyte is now known as macdaddy 09:49:10 -!- esden is now known as esden`away 09:50:09 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:53:20 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-140-61.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:53:34 hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 09:59:41 michaelw: thanks! 10:00:46 -!- bedlam [i=bedlam@case.rit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:04:43 bedlam [i=bedlam@case.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 10:05:21 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 10:05:26 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 10:08:01 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@58.62.4.250] has quit [] 10:08:30 -!- timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:09:20 -!- bedlam [i=bedlam@case.rit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:10:34 is this right: (defun (setf myfunc) (place value) (setf (myfunc place) value)) ? 10:10:42 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:11:13 no, it's (new-value arg1 arg2 arg3) 10:11:13 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:24 the lambda list of your setf function, I mean. 10:11:41 also, that invokes that function all over again 10:12:18 (defun (setf myfunc) (value place) (setf (myfunc place) value)) 10:12:25 still, it calls itself 10:12:27 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:12:56 so... I have to do it like (defun (setf myfunc) (value place) (setf (cddar place) value)) 10:12:57 yes, in the body you need to specify what you want to do if you use (setf (myfunc place) something) (: 10:13:02 yea, that's it (: 10:13:17 :/ 10:13:26 that's... ugly >_> 10:13:29 erm. 10:13:54 it makes me have to duplicate the way I find the value I'll replace 10:13:55 what do you expect? that the lisp knows magically what you want to happen if somebody uses (setf (myfunc ...) ...)? 10:14:23 ah, yeah, it might make sense to use something other than lists as a data structure then (: 10:14:36 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 10:15:00 try a more structured data type like class instances... or arrays, or hash tables (: 10:15:21 also, wouldn't (let ((place (myfunc arg))) (setf place value)) do... what I expect it to do? 10:15:31 nope 10:15:45 explain, please? 10:15:51 that would bind the variable PLACE to a value, and you'd change that variable to the new value 10:15:59 it won't affect place at all, only what value PLACE holds 10:16:32 Tordek: places are not first-class objects in Lisp 10:16:40 so the original data structure'd be unchanged 10:16:51 Xach: the mail duplicate thing is marked as "closed", by the way. we can only hope that they fix it before the weekend 10:16:51 :/ 10:19:28 hackity hackity hack 10:19:33 Tordek: do you know the C language? 10:19:36 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-10-94.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:19:37 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-172.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:19:39 people who were complaining about clx being broken with freetype/truetype: please try now 10:19:50 spiaggia: too well for my likings 10:19:52 Xof: hey, nice! 10:20:26 Tordek: if you do int x = a[i]; and then x = 10, does that set a[i] to 10? 10:20:34 -!- zpiro is now known as Ifur 10:21:01 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X44f1.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:22:23 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:23:03 ths [n=ths@p549AE7E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:17 I know; still, this is lisp, not C, where you can do (setf (cdar list) 1), and that does make list[1]=1 10:24:05 bedlam [i=bedlam@case.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 10:24:13 cpape [n=user@p5484FD98.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:28 But that's not at all the type of situation you suggested above. 10:25:19 (setf (cadr list) 10) is similar to list[1] = 10 in C which is perfectly legal. 10:26:49 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-2c8303bef4869b95] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:26:50 so I still don't understand why you _expected_ that to work in Lisp. 10:27:08 huh... wait... I have (let ((word (word-info word1))) (push (list word 1) (subwords word))) (with properly defined (setf subwords))... and it does do what I expected 10:28:13 (where (defun word-info (word) (find word *db* :key #'car))) 10:28:44 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [""That's our secret... we kill you with kindness. What's your secret?""] 10:29:40 *sigh* 10:31:05 Tordek: In C, that would be similar to this: person p = mumble(x); p -> age = 31; 10:31:07 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl274.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:31:09 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:31:21 anekos [n=anekos@pl274.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:31:27 Tordek: don't you see the difference between modifying a variable and an object pointed to by that variable? 10:31:52 there is a great youtube video about that =) 10:32:05 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 10:32:54 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pmWojisM_E 10:33:40 Tordek: There is no difference in the evaluation models of C and Lisp in this respect, so if it doesn't work in C it doesn't work in Lisp either. The main difference is that in C you can sometimes have first-class places (using &mumble for instance) and in Lisp, you can program what is acceptable to the assignment operator. 10:33:46 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:16 Tordek: but in no way can you convince Lisp to treat places as first-class objects. 10:35:45 Tordek: If given a choice, it is better to adjust your expectations to reality than to wonder why reality is not like your expectations. 10:36:11 http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/small-cl-src/2004-June/000016.html 10:37:32 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:37:53 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:38:59 xjrn_ [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:31 -!- xjrn_ is now known as xjrn 10:42:46 -!- DanielRM [i=5c2b4207@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-789205c39a866683] has quit [Client Quit] 10:44:10 DanielRM [i=5c2b4207@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d2f282d2543695a4] has joined #lisp 10:44:49 so... the whole difference is between (let ((v (cdr a))) (setf v 1)) and (let ((v (cdr a))) (setf (car v) 1)) 10:45:09 what if I wanted to change v in a? 10:46:01 (well, yeah, probably delete and insert, I guess) 10:48:41 EinarDogfin [n=user@c-67-185-77-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:22 makes sense now, thanks spiaggia 10:51:18 -!- EinarDogfin [n=user@c-67-185-77-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:52:21 anekos_ [n=anekos@pl274.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:53:04 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl274.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 10:53:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:55:34 no problem. 10:55:35 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:55:52 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 11:01:58 (and, what I'm doing isn't exactly x = a[i]; x = 10; ; it's x = (a + i); a = 10; x = &a; ; more pointer juggling, same result, but with this way I can do x->place = 1;, since x stores a reference, not a value) 11:03:08 still, lisp, not C. 11:05:59 -!- DanielRM [i=5c2b4207@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d2f282d2543695a4] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 11:06:20 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-093-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:08:59 EinarDogfin [n=user@c-67-185-77-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:12 -!- EinarDogfin [n=user@c-67-185-77-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 11:10:33 nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:10:54 athos [n=philipp@p54B86D39.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:01 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:11:43 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:01 vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 11:15:36 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 11:16:53 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2F57F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:27 rdd`` [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:18:41 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:20:49 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9AF8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:05 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9BAE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:21:07 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 11:21:22 -!- sburson [n=gyro@c-98-234-71-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:21:54 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:22:31 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:22:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:25:46 Am I right in thinking that in SBCL, the evaluation environment is the same as the startup environment but the compilation environment is not the same as the evaluation environment? 11:27:49 rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:25 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B86D39.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:28:29 I have a list of pairs (this one is different) like '((1 2) (2 1) (3 2)), and I want the pair whose second element is the minimum of the list 11:28:47 with (loop ... minimize) I get the minimum value, but not the pair 11:28:51 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:07 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 11:29:08 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:29:10 Tordek: I went through some of this ages ago; cliki's page on extremise should set you straight 11:29:16 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 11:29:16 thanks 11:29:44 sburson [n=gyro@c-98-234-71-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:46 athos [n=philipp@p54B86D39.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:22 hmm? I get no results for (google "cliki extremise") ;( 11:31:32 minion: extremise? 11:31:33 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``extremise''. 11:31:49 No cliki page for extremise or extremize... 11:32:02 damnation 11:32:08 extremum? 11:32:24 Success! 11:32:31 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:32:32 aweseome 11:33:15 And if so, that the main reason for having the first two the same is that otherwise, essentially the startup environment would have to be cloned in order to obtain the evaluation envrionment? 11:33:47 saintiss [n=saintiss@143.129.75.18] has joined #lisp 11:33:54 hi all 11:34:00 hello saintiss 11:34:02 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 11:34:04 could anyone tell me the standard reference for lazy evaluation? 11:34:17 (as in scientific paper or something) 11:34:41 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:35:02 saintiss: http://scholar.google.fr/scholar?q=lazy+evaluation&hl=en&lr=&btnG=Search 11:35:15 This is THE reference... 11:35:27 -!- matrixiaN [i=matrixia@89-215-122-14.2072964232.ddns-lan.pl.ekk.bg] has quit [] 11:35:36 matimago, do you mean the first one that pops up? 11:35:46 I mean, google scholar. 11:35:58 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:36:04 matimago, yeah, but that way I can't find the *standard* reference... only related work 11:36:49 so... Xof: I have to copy an implementation from there? or is there any library I use? 11:37:01 hi there, may be anyone will can help me. I'm trying to run SLIME+SBCL on OSX (Aquamacs) and get this error log: http://paste.defun.ru/d77e4ef1d (Sorry for x-post from #emacs) (: 11:37:17 saintiss: unfortunately, http://www.iso.org/iso/search.htm?qt=lazy+evaluation&searchSubmit=Search&sort=rel&type=simple&published=true returns no match. 11:37:29 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:38:28 matimago, no no, not a standard, just the "standard reference", as in like the original paper which proposed it 11:39:16 Oh! The original. 11:39:28 saintiss: #haskell probably would have flooded you with references... 11:39:49 Tordek: up to you. (It's four lines of code, though) 11:40:14 I don't mind copying, just wondering if there's a "proper" way 11:40:19 <_8david> matimago: perhaps you should write the bibtex maintainers and tell them that their software is obsolete, since everyone can just write [jfgi] for every citation 11:40:32 :-) 11:40:38 michaelw, aha, interesting :) 11:41:10 saintiss: henderson/morris, 1976, "a lazy evaluator" 11:41:34 H4ns, brilliant, thanks 11:41:59 -!- _8david is now known as lichtblau 11:44:09 In a way, lazy evaluation was invented with the FEXPR, in LISP 1, in 1959. 11:44:40 Tordek: with series: (let ((z (scan '((1 2) (2 1) (3 2))))) (collect-min (#Msecond z) z)) => (2 1) 11:50:57 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:04 -!- saintiss [n=saintiss@143.129.75.18] has left #lisp 11:52:39 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:53:09 hello Fade 11:53:21 vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 11:53:27 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:54:36 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177125142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:29 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:55:58 vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 11:55:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:58:21 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4684D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:49 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:59:16 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 12:00:26 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 12:00:36 -!- macdaddy is now known as spiderbyte 12:03:26 schlarf [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 12:04:09 i have a question on the meaning of multimethods 12:04:27 V-ille: ping me wrt sharing some NIO-centric lisp porting adaptations to a jvm runtime. i sent a PM. /me heads for sleep. 12:04:32 can i say (len obj1 obj2) and get the length of both? 12:06:26 you want (len obj1 obj2) to return (values (len obj1) (len obj2)) ?? 12:08:37 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:09:00 if you want (list (len obj1) (len obj2)), you can (mapcar 'len (list obj1 obj2)) 12:09:16 if you want the sum of the length... sum the lengths :S 12:09:27 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 12:09:41 yes i was just trying to understnd generic functions and multimethods, havent encountered them before 12:09:42 schlarf: and all this is not about multimethods anyway 12:09:47 just message passing 12:09:51 h4ns: ok 12:09:58 yeah, what H4ns said 12:10:24 schlarf: a multi method is a method that has multiple dispatch, so (len obj1 obj2) calls a method depending on *both* obj1 and obj2 (as opposed to e.g. java, where obj1.len(obj2) only depends on the value of obj1) 12:10:39 esden [n=esdentem@atradig126.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:12 mozzyb_ [n=mozzyb@168.85-200-128.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 12:11:37 -!- esden [n=esdentem@atradig126.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:11:47 ecraven: that last part doesn't really make sense (for me at least); len may be overloaded and have different meaning for str.len(int) and str.len(float) 12:11:58 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4556E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:59 esden [n=esdentem@atradig126.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:12:06 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44489.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:16 Tordek, you should read through the multimethod section in Practical Common Lisp. Done so? 12:12:27 Tordek: if you overload len for Class1 and Class2, java will chose whatever the static type is, it will *not* perform dynamic dispatch based on parameter types 12:12:47 int vs. float is static method selection, not dynamic method dispatch 12:13:21 Tordek, this might be interesting regarding your length-question: http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/07/extension-methods-greenspunning-generic-functions 12:13:22 (this actually is a major hassle, if you need multimethods.. that's why lisp rules, and java doesn't ;) 12:13:26 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 12:13:39 icebox [n=chatzill@91.80.252.173] has joined #lisp 12:13:46 ah i see 12:13:46 tic: original question is schlarf's 12:13:53 Oh. 12:14:05 still, thanks 12:14:08 well, schlarf, then. :) 12:15:02 multimethods is the shit. 12:15:09 haha 12:15:30 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:15:40 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:15:46 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:34 schlarf: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html#generic-functions-and-methods 12:16:59 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 12:18:03 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4684D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:54 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:23:01 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:27:14 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:28:35 could be a stupid question, but... with multimethods and all, why does (map) need a sequence-type parameter? 12:29:20 -!- schlarf [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 12:29:25 Tordek: the sequence type specifies the result sequence type. 12:30:57 -!- mozzyb [n=mozzyb@180.84-48-169.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:31:35 robyonrails [n=robyonra@host185-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:38:20 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:06 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:41:17 ... which is useful when you want to convert from one sequence type to another while mapping 12:41:21 It would save users some typing if there was a convenience function that defaults the return type based on the arguments though. 12:41:48 Dylan has that: `map' doesn't take a return type argument, while `map-as' is the general CL:MAP-like case. 12:43:01 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:43:10 (Which makes sense, I think. Typing CONCATENATE 'STRING gets old after the first couple of thousand times.) 12:43:42 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:44:52 plage [n=user@laptop-147-210-129-92.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 12:45:12 *g* 12:45:23 lichtblau: dylan could have been such a nice lisp 12:45:26 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:46:58 Yeah, Borland should have sold a Turbo Dylan for $99. It would have been a hit. 12:47:08 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:49:37 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:49:52 If you're using concatenate 'string more than once, you're doing it wrong. 12:50:30 *H4ns* hands dlowe a "smug lisp wheenie" badge 12:50:48 *dlowe* waves his string streams in the air. 12:51:11 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:17 "it is (concatenate 'string ...) to educate you that you should use string streams instead" 12:52:27 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:58 i use something like (defmacro catstr (&body args) `(concatenate 'string ,@args)) 12:53:19 i'm in the habit of concatting strings with format. is that a bad practice? 12:53:19 less typing .. :) 12:54:27 *H4ns* uses string streams because he found concatenate 'string too tedious to type 12:55:10 but then, concatenating strings does not happen too often in my life. there are often much better ways to do things than by concatenating strings 12:55:47 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 12:55:51 i was about to say, since you showed me with-output-to-string i don't seem to use that much (concatenate) 12:55:57 *attila_lendvai* welcomes the relative openness towards criticizing lisp 12:56:42 re: lichtblau: I'd have made functions like (to 'string (map #'fun list)) 12:57:13 but, I see some optimization, perhaps, in doing (map-as 'string) 12:58:51 is there any fixed-precision, "decimal" type in lisp? 12:58:59 and, is it faster than float? 12:59:09 there are ratios, but they'll be slower than floats. 12:59:40 floats are hardware accelerated, rationals and bigints are processed in software. 13:00:35 Tordek: but the change from fixnums to bignums is transparent if you don't care. you'll not see your integers be converted to float unless you explicitly make it so. fixnums on 64 bit platforms are rather large. 13:01:43 I have a little raytracer, and I work with normalized values (it's either that, or doing (/ (* val1 val2) 255) every time) 13:01:49 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 13:02:25 [Which'd not be such a hassle to change had I built it somewhat well from the beginning] 13:02:39 I might be the only person who's never written a ray tracer, so I'll just ask the dumb question: how would decimal arithmetic help here? 13:02:42 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 13:03:24 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:03:35 I asked if it were faster; I end up (floor (* 255 val))'ing every color, so any precision over 3 decimals is unnecessary 13:03:57 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:05:49 I didn't try using integer arithmetic, normalizing every change, but I don't think it'd be an improvement 13:06:01 (also, yeah, I need to refactor it quite a lot) 13:07:12 invisio [n=some0ne@ip70-185-96-119.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:34 matley [n=matley@83.225.43.89] has joined #lisp 13:09:41 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E473F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:57 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #lisp 13:12:48 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #lisp 13:15:43 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:13 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:16:23 -!- schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:24:01 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44489.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:24:43 -!- capca [n=some0ne@ip70-185-96-119.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:26:16 -!- mozzyb_ [n=mozzyb@168.85-200-128.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:26:50 Tordek: you probably have a bad representation. If you used floating point numbers between 0.0 and 1.0, you could just (* val1 val2). 13:27:26 uhm, matimago, that's my current action 13:28:07 (actually, more like (mapcar #'* color1 color2), but whatever) 13:29:19 Tordek: when nobody understands at all what it is you're asking about, chances are you didn't explain your question very well 13:30:06 eh, lichtblau, I asked 2 questions: is there, and is it faster than float, a fixed-precision decimal type. 13:30:15 everything else was chit-char 13:30:17 *chat 13:30:28 Tordek: there's none in the standard 13:30:34 there may be libs to do it 13:30:47 highly unlikely to be faster than float on most platforms, though 13:31:04 (modern computers have dedicated hardware to do horrible floating-point stuff) 13:31:33 rsynnott: some high-end machines have (or will soon have) decimal floating point hardware. 13:31:50 yep 13:32:07 very unlikely to be supported by random lisp impl, though :) 13:32:13 well, I'm still confused how binary-coded decimals ended up in the same question as raytracing. 13:32:18 true. 13:32:24 lichtblau: me too! 13:32:39 bcds? as in the wacky antiques beloved by IBM? 13:33:25 bhyde [n=bhyde@96.237.127.60] has joined #lisp 13:35:56 rpg__ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:59 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:39:38 rsynnott: they're poised to come back into fashion. IEEE 754 is likely to incorporate a them, and ISO C will include them as an extension (already implemented in GCC 4.x, I think). 13:40:27 oh, why? 13:40:33 what are they used for? 13:40:40 monetary calculations, mostly. 13:40:51 http://speleotrove.com/decimal/decifaq.html 13:41:34 generally speaking, you're probably breaking the law if you use binary floating point arithmetic to do a monetary calculation. 13:41:59 sctb [n=sctb@s204-191-25-129.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:06 -!- sctb is now known as sebell 13:42:11 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:43:45 lichtblau: is there a way to use xmlspam on html without converting the latter to xhtml? 13:44:18 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-7.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:17 -!- segv__ is now known as segv 13:47:18 disumu [n=disumu@p57A25B13.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:12 (first.. "while" would be better) 13:49:52 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:37 -!- plage [n=user@laptop-147-210-129-92.labri.fr] has left #lisp 13:59:39 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:05:18 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl182.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:05:20 i've got a list of two-member lists which i'd like to use to create an instance, in such a manner: (make-instance 'foo :item0-list0 item1-list0 :item0-list1 item1-list1 ... 14:06:05 *kreuter* smells APPLY of APPEND a-comin'. 14:06:39 bougyman: use plists, and then apply 14:06:45 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-140-61.netcologne.de] has quit [] 14:07:14 bougyman: define a boa constructor make-foo for the class, then use (mapcar #'make-foo ) 14:07:29 that's kinda what i'm doing now. 14:07:32 benny [n=benny@i577A15E3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:36 bougyman: you could also use lambda instead of the named constructor. 14:08:01 i'm making the constructor, i just don't know now to coerce the item0's to keywords. 14:08:04 or is there no way to do so? 14:08:15 (intern item0 :keyword) 14:08:18 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-204-29-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:08:20 also, how to make this a plist instead of a two item list? 14:08:24 bougyman: you could, but why do you want to do that? 14:08:32 (loop for s in (cl-ppcre:all-matches-as-strings "(\w+): (\d+)" mstatus) collecting (cl-ppcre:split ": " s)) 14:09:00 adeht: I don't think so. 14:09:04 the last collecting returns a two item list, is there a function/macro to make that a plist? 14:09:10 I would work if closure-html had a streaming API like klacks or sax, similar to what cxml offers. 14:09:14 bougyman: use nconcing instead of collecting 14:09:15 Unfortunately, closure-html parses the entire document into memory first, and I'm not sure how much work you'd have to invest to refactor it so that it doesn't have to do that. 14:09:23 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 14:09:41 very nice. 14:09:44 ok, so I have a plist now. 14:09:55 lichtblau: I see 14:09:56 a plist doesn't have to be symboled for its keys? 14:10:04 bougyman: no 14:10:20 -!- robyonrails [n=robyonra@host185-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:11:21 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:11:58 but in this case you still need extra work to get something suitable for make-instance 14:12:46 Xach: the plist is not getf-able on those strings. 14:12:59 right. 14:14:05 (loop for s in (cl-ppcre:all-matches-as-strings "(\w+): (\d+)" mstatus) for (key value) = (cl-ppcre:split ": " s) nconc (list (intern key :keyword) value)) ? 14:14:17 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-211-101-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:15:07 intern should only be used for data from trusted sources that have an upper bound on the distinct strings that they can generate to be interned. 14:15:13 mike [n=user@ec2-67-202-38-234.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:24 -!- mike is now known as Guest83306 14:15:38 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 14:16:09 yeah, add when (member key '("foo" "bar" ...) :test #'string-equal) 14:16:12 stassats`: STRING-UPCASE on key, but perfect. 14:16:28 the input stream is in the hands of the enemy 14:16:35 the regex tests for that already. 14:16:42 if it's not \w+ it will not be run through that. 14:17:05 bougyman: you want to constrain the possible keywords passed to your function 14:17:20 bougyman: seriously, for your application, you should use find-symbol, not intern. the keywords must exist if they are useable as initargs. 14:17:34 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:18:03 find-symbol works well. 14:20:00 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.89.184] has joined #lisp 14:20:53 http://xach.com/tmp/philip-jose.png 14:21:48 H4ns: how would the constructor look in that (mapcar) function above? 14:21:53 http://xach.com/tmp/hunchentoot.png is tame by comparison :) 14:22:04 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-099-1.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:22:25 bougyman: i did not know that you want to read the keys from an external source, so my comment does not apply. 14:22:31 that's an idea... make your own username asdf-installable with all the systems you like to have 14:22:34 i've got (let (status-list ((loop for s in (cl-ppcre:all-matches-as-strings "(\w+): (\d+)" mstatus) for (key value) = (cl-ppcre:split ": " s) nconc (list (find-symbol (string-upcase key) :keyword) value)))) 14:22:39 *lichtblau* wants "clbuild show-all-project-dependencies-as-png" 14:22:42 and i also find http://xach.com/tmp/zs3.png interesting... 14:22:59 (make-instance 'the-object (what to put here?)) 14:23:08 bougyman: are you sure that "\w" in regex will work? 14:23:21 it works on the repl, will it need \\ in the file? 14:24:27 Xach: heh 14:24:31 *Xach* thinks he did something wrong 14:24:35 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:50 *Xach* guesses not 14:24:56 bougyman: you have a strange repl 14:25:08 antifuchs: any requests? 14:25:15 *Xach* is a graphing machine 14:25:21 :D 14:25:38 Xach: I'd love to actually see all clbuildable projects in one png. 14:25:43 the secret to a truly impressive graph is depending on iolib 14:26:12 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:26:14 Can you do that? (I'd also do it myself, if you'd share your source code.) 14:26:15 lichtblau: hmm, i'll see what i can do. 14:26:53 lichtblau: it's built on xach.com/tmp/deps.lisp 14:27:31 envi_home2 [i=envi@220.121.234.227] has joined #lisp 14:28:10 Okay, that seems to contains lots of projects clbuild doesn't even know about. 14:28:18 and vice versa. 14:28:19 s/contains/contain/ 14:28:27 i just grabbed the asdf-install list off cliki 14:29:31 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:51 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.128.13] has joined #lisp 14:30:44 Right. Well, clbuild-based or not, I'd be curious to see a comprehensive picture of projects that are actually buildable. I'm guessing that the asdf-installable stuff from cliki includes projects which don't fulfil that criterion. 14:33:31 Drawing http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/clbuild/dependencies might be an easy way out. It shows project dependencies, not system dependencies. But it's close. 14:33:38 (And who cares about private systems like cxml-test anyway?) 14:33:56 bhyde_ [n=bhyde@96.237.135.36] has joined #lisp 14:34:26 probably nobody. 14:34:59 on the other hand, "private" isn't a formal concept. 14:35:34 s-sql is very useful outside of postmodern, for example, but it comes bundled with it 14:36:15 Is it possible to add a line at the beginning of a text file without reading everything and rewriting it after writing the line ? 14:36:33 auclairb: not on systems that are popular today. 14:37:41 Hmm. The most formal concept that makes sense (I think) is to look at .asd files, since that's the level at which inter-project dependencies actually work in ASDF. (Outside dependencies on systems without their own .asd file only cause trouble, because ASDF won't find them unless you're lucky and that .asd file was already loaded.) 14:38:08 lichtblau: oh, that sounds good to me. 14:38:49 -!- envi_home2 [i=envi@220.121.234.227] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:39:22 MHOOO [n=nah@u-4-027.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:39:47 envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:40:06 -!- user__ [n=user@p54925FEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:44:52 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B86D39.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:20 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:42 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:45:50 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:47:00 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:17 Xof: thanks for the clx fix! 14:48:30 does it work for you? 14:48:35 indeed. 14:48:52 Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:02 -!- Brucio-8 is now known as beslyrus 14:49:15 yay. mcclim-truetype beirc goodness. 14:49:43 beslyrus: awesome! 14:51:26 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@96.237.127.60] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:08 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:53:51 <_8david> oh, does that mean I can read Planet Lisp in pretty antialiased fonts again? 14:54:18 i changed the stylesheet to use aliased fonts, so: no 14:54:20 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:59 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 14:55:24 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:56:21 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:56:51 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:57:37 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:58:41 Xach: i can't seem to turn a string into something usable for keyword args. 15:02:00 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:02:01 bougyman: intern it in the keyword package 15:02:05 also, upcase 15:02:12 no, each one is fine. 15:02:29 but the macro (or function) generates (MAKE-INSTANCE 'MPD-STATUS ":VOLUME 100 :REPEAT 1 :RANDOM 1 :PLAYLIST 1029 :PLAYLISTLENGTH 1028 :XFADE 1 :SONG 377 :SONGID 377 :TIME 102 :BITRATE 245 :AUDIO 44100 ") 15:02:41 a string instead of keyword args. 15:03:01 bougyman: find-symbol is one way. intern is another. 15:03:34 you can convert that string into something else with READ-FROM-STRING. (that's getting a little ugly) 15:04:05 lisppaste: url 15:04:05 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 15:04:10 bougyman: paste the macro ^ 15:04:44 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.194.114] has joined #lisp 15:05:52 http://xach.com/tmp/split-sequence.png and http://xach.com/tmp/cl-ppcre.png are variations...they show dependees of the respective systems. 15:06:21 circo on the dotfiles did not go well. 15:06:37 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:06:53 tee hee 15:06:53 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:07:06 these are more or less tree-shaped, so dot should do a good job (and does) 15:09:31 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:10:13 persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:18 circo made my computer go pear-shaped. 15:10:43 *persi* tips his hat at Xach for ZS3. Works great out of the box. 15:11:00 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:11:08 persi: cool, glad to hear it. 15:11:27 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:43 Xach, many libraries depending on cl-ppcre indeed. 15:11:50 -!- persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 15:13:03 ugh, this is so circular. 15:13:13 lichtblau: gwking had such tests at some point: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-containers/asdf-status/website/output/ 15:13:16 Xach: should be called pearo (-: 15:14:08 bougyman: what you're running into is a failure of incremental adjustments of approach. 15:14:39 nothing on google for string to keyword arguments re: lisp. 15:14:53 it feels like i'm trying something it can't do. 15:14:55 antifuchs: for anything more than a handful of nodes, Walrus3D likely is a better tool than dot. 15:15:01 bougyman: intern will do it. 15:15:19 bougyman: a keyword as an argument is just an argument. 15:15:29 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 15:15:31 Xach: keywords. 15:16:02 Xach: i have a string in a variable: ":VOLUME 100 :REPEAT 1 :RANDOM 1 :PLAYLIST 1029 :PLAYLISTLENGTH 1028 :XFADE 1 :SONG 377 :SONGID 377 :TIME 102 :BITRATE 245 :AUDIO 44100" and I want lisp to run (make-instance 'foo that-string-as-args) 15:16:09 bougyman: your problem is that you try to generate a string, but without looking at the source of the macro, we can't help you further. 15:16:23 yes, why generate a string? 15:16:25 well, i can't, but maybe someone with magic ninja mind reading skills can. 15:16:28 there is no macro anymore, i'm just trying it on the repl. 15:16:45 bougyman, I'd make it a list instead. '(:volume 100 :repeat 1 ...) 15:16:54 tic: it's a list before it's a string! 15:17:04 bougyman: this reminds me of someone who has gone off the trail and is in thick forest and is asking his friends "hey, this is rough going. could you please hand me a chainsaw to cut down all these trees?" 15:17:05 bougyman, well there you have it. 15:17:20 tic: I asked re: the list, too. 15:17:29 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:17:47 so I have (:VOLUME "100" :REPEAT "1" :RANDOM "1" :PLAYLIST "1029" :PLAYLISTLENGTH "1028" :XFADE "1" :SONG "377" :SONGID "377" :TIME "102" :BITRATE "245" :AUDIO "44100") 15:17:49 bougyman: APPLY is the thing to use. 15:17:50 bougyman: the answer was "apply" 15:17:52 and want to do the same thing. 15:17:54 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-4-242.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:17:57 (loop for (key val) on (split ...) collect (find-symbol (substr key 1) :keyword) (collect (parse-integer val))) 15:18:26 bougyman: ^ like that, properly adjusted and tweaked to taste. it is something lisp is quite capable to do. 15:18:29 MAKE-INSTANCE is a normal function. 15:18:45 (apply 'make-instance 'foo your-arguments) is it? 15:18:45 bougyman: also remove some extra wrong parens etc. 15:18:54 Well, a normal generic function :) 15:19:04 tic: sure. 15:19:09 tic: with your-arguments as a list? 15:19:14 bougyman: yes. 15:19:37 bougyman, (apply 'make-instance 'foo '(:volume 100 :repeat 1 :random 1 :playlist 1029 ...)) 15:19:43 stassats said that quite early. 15:19:57 hm. #'make-instance, no? 15:19:57 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp419.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:20:02 tic: doesn't matter. 15:20:12 *tic* checks the dictionary for func. designator. 15:20:15 Xach: < stassats`> bougyman: use plists, and then apply <<< wasn't very clear. 15:20:28 i got the plist part down, apply was giving me hell. 15:20:37 but I was applying some silly macro, not make-instance. 15:20:39 bougyman, did you look at the spec for APPLY? 15:20:40 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp419.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 15:20:48 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:20:52 Greetings! 15:20:54 *Xach* spreads his argument list designators like delicious nutella 15:20:56 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 15:21:31 tic: yeah, and have pg 252 of the PCL open. 15:21:36 ergh, Nutella. Nusspli is so much tastier 15:22:18 same errors with apply as before. 15:22:19 peanut butter ftw! 15:22:23 bougyman, paste! 15:22:26 attempt to use VALUES-LIST on a dotted list: SLIST 15:22:47 well, the macro, input & output? 15:23:35 I was contemplating using TYPE-OF to specify the element-type of an ARRAY. But experience and reading the hyperspec leads me to think there is a better way to specify a type based on the binding of symbol. Any recommendations? 15:24:16 For example, (type-of 1) in SBCL returns BIT, when I am looking for integer. 15:24:47 Or maybe even FIXNUM 15:24:59 tmh: than specify 'integer manually 15:25:04 then 15:25:06 bougyman pasted "keyword args from a list" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68168 15:25:21 tmh: generally, the programmer needs to manually specify the intentional type in such cases 15:25:35 never mind! 15:25:40 i see it now, it's in the class definition. 15:25:55 bougyman: also, you wrongly quote slist 15:26:14 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@u-4-027.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:26:20 bougyman: (in its usage. in the definition, you forgot the quote) 15:26:33 H4ns: i tried with and without 15:26:34 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085095.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 15:26:39 tic's had quotes. 15:26:48 er a quote 15:27:11 (defvar slist '(values...)) (apply 'make-instance 'mpd-status slist) 15:28:07 bougyman; given the vast size of the search domain, random probing is not going to get you far. It's probably faster in the long run to just sit down and read up on CL's evaluation rules. 15:28:28 heh, "sit down and read up" 15:28:36 you didn't get the error because slist was already defined, and (:value ...) wasn't evaluated 15:28:55 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483EDA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:09 bougyman annotated #68168 with "against the unquoted list" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68168#1 15:29:42 bougyman: your initargs in your defclass are not keywords 15:30:06 bougyman: the error message is completely clear about that. no magic keywordifying is going on in defclass. 15:30:20 bougyman: you can use any symbol as initargs. they need not be keywords (and it's useful to avoid keywords to allow package management of slot names and initargs) 15:30:24 bougyman, you should (but don't have to) use earmuffs for your defvars, btw. 15:31:08 yep, that was it. 15:31:29 i thought that's what the last line of debugger output meant. 15:31:57 "T)"? 15:32:06 but I also thought initarg were accessible by keywords even if you define them as not. 15:32:18 the one above the T 15:32:19 bougyman: no. initargs are used as they are defined. 15:32:41 bougyman: in your original defclass, you could do (make-instance 'mpd-status 'volume 3 'repeat 9 ...) 15:32:56 bougyman: and you could control which initargs users could access via the package system 15:33:06 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1CBDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:09 bougyman: keyword initargs are much more common in my experience, though. 15:33:17 -!- Richard_ [n=Richard@cpc1-grim11-0-0-cust82.nott.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 15:33:37 segv [n=mb@p4FC1ECD3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:00 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:35:35 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:36:36 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17E405.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:08 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 15:38:05 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 15:38:18 'morning 15:39:26 -!- envi_home is now known as envi^home 15:43:40 hello salex 15:43:47 and good evening everyone 15:47:39 hello beach 15:51:22 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 15:53:37 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.128.13] has left #lisp 15:53:49 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-4-242.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:55:27 milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.147] has joined #lisp 15:56:33 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A25B13.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 15:58:48 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9AF8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:59:18 -!- bhyde_ [n=bhyde@96.237.135.36] has quit [] 16:00:09 -!- icebox [n=chatzill@91.80.252.173] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 16:01:22 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:55 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 16:06:45 bhyde [n=bhyde@96.237.135.36] has joined #lisp 16:07:49 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:08:29 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:09:12 schasi [n=schasi@p54A275F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:23 is there any way to use an uri (from puri) as a key in a hash-table? the :test keyword only accepts eq, eql, equal, equalp - none of them treat two uri equal 16:12:38 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:40 -!- birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:12:45 minion: genhash 16:12:45 genhash: NET.HEXAPODIA.HASHTABLES This is a Library for generic hash tables. http://www.cliki.net/genhash 16:13:13 turbo24p1g: you can use eq if you intern the URIs 16:13:16 see puri:intern-uri 16:14:39 thanks! 16:15:13 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:07 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:18 xristos [n=xristos@93-97-209-126.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:17:51 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:59 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:17 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-160-83.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:27:18 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085095.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:16 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:29:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 16:29:26 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:29:34 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:16 -!- aiur [n=Jan@218.109.89.184] has quit [Client Quit] 16:35:14 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:38:58 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:32 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-107-99.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:44:26 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:46:43 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:47:20 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.228.1] has joined #lisp 16:48:23 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 16:54:36 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp419.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:54:42 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.43.89] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:56:24 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:56:48 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 16:58:41 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 16:58:59 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 16:59:17 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:59:36 hmm, turns out that at some point between sbcl 1.0.12 and .20, handling of soft links changed :( 16:59:58 in what respect, and how are you being affected? 17:00:13 I recall changing the implementation of TRUENAME last fall. 17:01:01 cl-fad's traverse directory thing (same version of cl-fad) returns pathnames with the real directory in .20, even when told to crawl the link 17:01:05 the old definition's semantics were embarrasing to write out in english. 17:01:54 (so, for instance, if /home/user/site/current links to /home/user/site/r1234, then crawling, say, /home/user/site/current/templates will return things like /home/user/site/r1234/templates/bla.html 17:01:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:02:10 whereas in the old version it would have given /home/user/site/current/templates/bla.html 17:02:17 it's not actually a problem now I know about it :) 17:02:25 but was wondering why my app was breaking 17:02:43 right, though the old version did resolve symlinks in the directory under some circumstances. if it matters to you, I can dig it out. 17:03:27 basically, I noticed that POSIX has had this routine called realpath(3) since 1990 or something, and GNU claptrap aside, we might as well use it on Unix systems. 17:03:41 nope, not a problem now I know it does it that way 17:04:00 ok 17:04:03 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 17:04:14 (was irritating to find, because my whole template caching system is a bit of a scary mess, and was catching the errors on the way down silently) 17:04:23 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 17:05:18 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:05:39 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 17:05:47 hippee-lee [n=hippee-l@sta-206-168-218-28.rockynet.com] has joined #lisp 17:06:46 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:06:59 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:07:12 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 17:07:15 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 17:10:35 -!- hippee-lee [n=hippee-l@sta-206-168-218-28.rockynet.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:11:30 angelixd [n=pcmantz@adsl-99-140-235-155.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:10 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633014.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 17:13:26 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:20 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 17:20:09 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:32 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:23 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp419.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 17:24:12 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-81.kosnet.ru] has quit ["Looooooo ve."] 17:26:41 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student166-32.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 17:30:31 <_8david> does anyone have a script to build patch files containing all definitions changed in Lisp source code between two specified versions? 17:31:44 <_8david> ISTR that the primetader people talked about a script they had for this purpose at ECLM. And that it was "pretty easy to write" or so :-), but I'm not sure what the best approach is. 17:31:53 espen vestre once sent me his patchmaking script. it wasn't very sophisticated. 17:32:27 _8david: I had some of one once. depending on what it's supposed to do, it can be hard. 17:32:27 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:32:35 ISTR it was mostly powered by SET-DIFFERENCE or something like that 17:33:31 <_8david> Right, I think Espen Vestre is the "primetader people" I meant. :-) 17:33:35 um. order of evaluation? 17:33:50 i'll paste what he sent me. it's not much. 17:34:10 (defun foo (x) (bar x)) (defmacro bar (x) ...) <--- not commutative. 17:34:42 <_8david> Next time I'll try to spell PrimeTrader correctly. 17:35:37 http://xach.com/tmp/patch.txt 17:36:00 <_8david> thanks 17:36:26 (just over 4 years ago...) 17:37:03 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:25 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 17:39:09 okay, he does preserve the order of forms. 17:39:11 <_8david> kreuter: I'm currently copying entire files into the patch out of laziness, while my colleague carefully builds hand-crafted patches. Any (semi-)automatic solution must be more attractive than either, even if it's not perfect. 17:40:40 I think I remember getting stuck thinking about whether I had to construct (declaim (notinline ...)) forms when the old file had inline declarations and the new one didn't. 17:40:52 -!- nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:40:53 <_8david> slime doesn't have a "recompile changed definitions" feature I could steal, has it? 17:40:59 and probably some other stuff having to do with inline declarations, too. 17:41:12 _8david: i vaguely remember someone did a naive version of it that nobody liked. 17:41:41 though it might have just been a highlighting of uncompiled edits 17:42:39 -!- agemo [n=jovdmeer@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has quit ["phoenix is going down for reboot NOW"] 17:43:17 kreuter: (defun foo (x) (bar x)) (defmacro bar (x) ...) what are you expecting that to do? 17:43:22 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 17:43:33 foom: lose. 17:43:39 kreuter: oh okay, that's fine then. :) 17:43:54 I thought perhaps you were saying someone might do that on purpose 17:44:23 no, I was thinking that SET-DIFFERENCE, by itself, could produce results with the forms out of order. 17:44:27 yeah 17:46:22 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:48:54 <_8david> Hmm. I think I'm not a fan of the reader-based solution after all, because I'd prepare patches on Linux and it wouldn't notice that a #+mswindows section of the file just changed. 17:50:30 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:53 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-17-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:09 bougyman pasted "package namespace weirdness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68177 17:57:48 both (intern and (find-symbol return nil when using the mpc:status-to-list function, but return what is expected when i define status-to-list in the common-lisp package. 17:58:48 does that make any sense? 18:00:08 timor1 [n=martin@w0833.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:19 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:20 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:00:38 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-bdba553c70925506] has joined #lisp 18:02:13 -!- timor1 [n=martin@w0833.dip.tu-dresden.de] has left #lisp 18:02:14 i doubt that the default package is "COMMON-LISP" 18:02:14 thei're interned in the wrong packages? 18:02:30 interesting that sbcl inlines the list creation in (list 1 2) and (multple-value-call #'list (values 1 2)) but not in (multiple-value-call #'list (values 1) (values 2)) 18:02:44 oh hell 18:02:51 it's the \w in my regex 18:02:56 timor1 [n=martin@w0833.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 18:03:09 in the repl \w works, in a file it has to be \\w 18:03:38 aren't strings read in the same way? 18:04:05 nope 18:04:10 _8david: I wonder if Emacs couldn't do an okay job of it for you. 18:04:48 tic: typed in the repl "\w" matches a word class, but it has to be represented as "\\w" in a file. 18:04:58 bougyman: you're wrong. 18:05:15 bougyman: type just "\w" in the repl. 18:05:21 and then RET 18:05:25 What does it display? 18:05:52 agemo [n=jovdmeer@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 18:06:24 <_8david> kreuter: how so? 18:06:31 bougyman annotated #68177 with "repl, \\w vs \w (\\w works in a file)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68177#1 18:06:45 pjb: just pasted an example. 18:07:08 _8david: well, it's got stuff already for parsing CL, without being as finicky as the CL reader. 18:07:34 bougyman: answer pjb's question 18:07:54 * "\w" 18:07:55 "\\w" 18:08:09 bougyman: they you don't have the standard reader macro. 18:08:23 bougyman: you have botched the *readtable* used by the REPL. 18:08:33 probably linedit doing so. 18:08:41 (setf *readtable* (copy-readtable nil)) to restore it. 18:08:43 it's the repl wrapper i'm using. 18:08:57 i probably missed that in the linedit doc. 18:09:08 That's the problem with "sophisticated" tools... 18:09:17 linedit is like sb-readline on steroids. 18:10:03 That's quite a problem, if the same string is not read the same in the REPL and in the source files... 18:10:30 kij [n=user@0910ds2-vbr.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 18:11:14 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-107-99.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 18:11:46 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-36.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:57 kij` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 18:13:59 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 18:15:33 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AE7E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:17:27 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:28 DanielRM [i=51655cf9@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3e76aeec11d24f43] has joined #lisp 18:18:33 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:10 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 18:19:59 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 18:21:01 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:21:52 -!- DanielRM [i=51655cf9@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3e76aeec11d24f43] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 18:22:27 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 18:22:29 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:22:29 jgracin__ [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:22:43 -!- jgracin__ [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:23:05 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:05 how do you guys feel about typing like haskell? Would it be relevant to lisp? 18:23:07 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:23:12 booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:14 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-172.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 18:23:18 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:24:24 "like haskell" "like haskell" "like haskell" 18:24:36 no, doesn't sound relevant to me 18:24:40 dcrawford: that's not relevant to Lisp. 18:24:43 dcrawford: you are irrelevant! 18:25:30 *dcrawford* "loves" the english language 18:25:37 I guess I formed that sentence in a funny way. What I guess I meant to say is 'can lisp take advantage of something like that, or does implementing that kind of typing sacrifice all these other things?' 18:25:38 sykopomp: I suspect it would influence the way software is developed, so people who are used to the way it is developed in Lisp probably would not like it. 18:25:39 tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 18:25:52 WodkaSchlunz_ [n=WodkaSch@xdsl-87-78-19-197.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:13 How can I change my nick name? 18:26:21 WodkaSchlunz_: /nick 18:26:22 "/nick foo" 18:26:30 thank you 18:27:12 -!- WodkaSchlunz_ is now known as Schlunz 18:27:15 sykopomp: have alook at Qi 18:27:25 drewc: I've seen that, yeah. 18:27:41 sykopomp: that is very close to 'typing like haskell' 18:27:42 but do you really need to have a pure functional language in order to have at least some of the advantages of a typing system like that? 18:27:49 no 18:28:28 jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:32 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 18:28:36 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:29:19 -!- kij [n=user@0910ds2-vbr.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:20 anekos__ [n=anekos@pl274.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:32:13 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:19 -!- Schlunz [n=WodkaSch@xdsl-87-78-19-197.netcologne.de] has left #lisp 18:32:32 _8david: with some effort diff-sexp could perhaps be used. I wouldn't have thought so myself, but Oudeis managed to use it for HTML diffing, IIRC. 18:33:54 -!- angelixd [n=pcmantz@adsl-99-140-235-155.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:02 hi people, should macroexpand be capable of expanding macros defined in a surrounding macrolet? 18:35:05 dlisboa [n=dlisboa@189-38-236-89.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 18:35:12 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:35:33 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:35:35 I'm looking at the pfdietz ansi tests, namely push.5, pop.3 and pushnew.21 18:35:43 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-118-240.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:35:44 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 18:36:26 abcl fails all those, repl claiming "undefined function (setf %m)" 18:36:36 looks to me that something is wrong with the expansion 18:37:29 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-75-0-208-118.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:18 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-0-240.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:39:10 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@dsl017-097-067.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:29 Is there any web page which describes the list of types in cl and the memory size of them? 18:39:58 The memory size depends on implementation? 18:40:03 yes 18:40:12 never mind my question, the hyperspec says that local macros are considered.. 18:40:26 tomoyuki28jp: lichtblau had a tool to visualize sizes for sbcl, IIRC 18:41:28 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-126.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:28 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-36.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:42:46 michaelw: I could not find the info on the web. Do you know a way to get the tool? 18:43:55 <_8david> http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/dot/ 18:44:45 *Xach* misses blubba 18:45:55 _8david: thanks! I will take a look at it. 18:47:01 -!- anekos_ [n=anekos@pl274.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:13 -!- timor1 [n=martin@w0833.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:36 <_8david> also, http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl.git?a=blob;f=src/compiler/generic/objdef.lisp could be considered a "web page which describes" the types and their sizes 18:47:39 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:43 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@dsl017-097-067.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [] 18:57:03 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-0-240.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:12 ths [n=ths@X44f1.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:36 -!- sebell [n=sctb@s204-191-25-129.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 18:59:18 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-75-0-208-118.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:51 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student166-32.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 19:00:43 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:14 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A15E3.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:27 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:07:48 Xach: aroundp? 19:07:53 gah. p? 19:08:27 hullo 19:09:32 I'm curious how many of the 450 .asd files you've recently analyzed subclass cl-source-file or compile-op in order to do something interesting before, after, or around calling cl:compile-file. 19:09:49 I'm afraid I don't have them handy at the moment. 19:10:00 I should put up a tarball of just the asd files though, because I think they're interesting. 19:10:06 okay. would it be easy for you to tar up the .asd files at some point? 19:10:11 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 19:10:14 It took a while to get them, and I don't think anyone else should have to do it! 19:10:14 -!- tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:10:19 :) 19:10:27 I'll see what I can do. 19:10:47 thanks. 19:10:58 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.121] has joined #lisp 19:11:19 I think that Ironclad rebinds *READTABLE* around compile-op. 19:11:26 yeah. 19:11:34 taht screwed me up in some context or another. 19:11:51 so, that'd be a case where automatic recompilation when the fasl exists but is old can't really work. 19:12:01 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:12:13 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:12:36 since you really need ASDF to figure out that it must construct a plan with the right mojo. 19:12:48 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:13:08 *Xach* wonders if asdf is really the right place for such intervention 19:13:23 *kreuter* thinks such intervention isn't a great idea. 19:13:31 (a separate wondering from whether there is any current alternative) 19:14:44 -!- Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit ["leaving"] 19:15:36 Ifur [n=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 19:16:16 well, for readtables, there's tcr's proposal. or just a macro which sets *readtable* 19:16:24 *Xach* used a macro in the past 19:17:21 but *print-base* or *features* is not re-bound by compile-file, so that's more tricky 19:17:36 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:18:10 right, but the larger point is that "building" an ASDF system can mean anything, and so it's not generally the case that we can just call COMPILE-FILE on a source file when LOAD says the fasl is for a different SBCL version. 19:18:37 yes, sure. 19:18:59 I was thinking of ways to get around using asdf for that 19:19:55 -!- Ifur is now known as zpiro 19:21:22 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:22:39 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 19:23:08 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:25:08 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:44 anyone here use paredit? I can't figure out how to properly handle mismatched parentheses from copy/pasting 19:29:01 although I should probably be killing entire s-exps, as opposed to highlighting.. 19:29:14 when that happens to me, I just copy and paste more parentheses to fix it 19:29:34 I just kill paredit-mode, rebalance, and M-x paredit-mode again 19:30:01 C-q ) 19:30:11 what kreuter said 19:30:20 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:30:35 what about removing extra parens? 19:31:13 I usually kill-region them 19:31:23 sounds like a plan 19:31:45 -!- zpiro [n=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit ["leaving"] 19:31:47 sykopomp: if you double-click on a paren, it'll select the whole expression 19:31:59 that involves touching the rat :| 19:32:02 Ifur [n=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 19:32:32 dlowe: eh, why would I do that instead of just killing the whole expression (C-M-k)? 19:32:35 -!- Ifur [n=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:46 Ifur [n=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 19:33:40 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:34:57 When sykopomp said "highlight," it seemed reasonable that he was talking about mouse-work 19:34:58 C-M-Space M-w should also work 19:35:15 because the region always exists 19:35:49 dlowe: oh. sorry, I always highlight with C-SPC :P 19:37:06 aiee. zmacs mode is the work of the devil 19:37:33 hijole [i=IceChat7@ppp85-140-190-251.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:38:23 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:38:28 -!- simias [n=simias@caladan.myrix.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:41:43 C-u DEL 19:42:28 xbxb [n=xb@p54ABF550.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:28 damn, cursor in slime's repl jums up after evaluation, very annoying 19:44:41 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-43-247.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:45:28 N-Dex1 [n=gentoo@c-67-164-213-131.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:12 Hi everyone. Anyone know how to get the weblocks demos to run? 19:48:01 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54ABF550.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:48:28 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:49:21 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 19:49:21 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:49:28 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:51:06 N-Dex1: point a shotgun at them and make threatening gestures 19:52:21 not very nice! 19:52:35 It would probably be better to ask a specific question, rather than assume there's a widely-known problem with running them that hasn't been documented in any obvious spot or fixed. 19:53:40 on the other hand, not many people here use weblocks (Zhivago, maybe?) so there also might be a better venue. 19:53:46 (but on the other hand, the demos might get scared and actually -do- run!) 19:54:24 ok, I load the weblocks-demo.lisp file and do (start-weblocks-demo), refresh my browser on localhost:8080 and nothing changes. 19:54:43 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@96.237.135.36] has quit [] 19:55:36 -!- xristos [n=xristos@93-97-209-126.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:57:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-114.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:57:21 (e.g. I still have the "Hello!" from the "Our First Weblocks Application" from http://trac.common-lisp.net/cl-weblocks/wiki/UserManual#BreakingtheIce) 19:57:27 rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:35 Xach: any idea of a better IRC room to ask in? 19:58:52 n-dex1: try (weblocks:reset-sessions) 20:00:08 N-Dex1: don't know, sorry. 20:00:28 adeht: nothing 20:01:35 will-power [n=The_Mani@c-98-200-239-171.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:18 N-Dex1: the weblocks page suggests their google group for support 20:03:01 fugue88 [n=dsowen@fugue88.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:09 -!- dlisboa [n=dlisboa@189-38-236-89.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has left #lisp 20:03:16 Xach: yeah, I was hoping for something quicker and more interactive :-) 20:04:10 *Xach* struggles to resist the "drunk searching for car keys" anecdote 20:04:10 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:04:26 nicolas_e [n=nicolas@ARennes-358-1-27-127.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:04:42 heh 20:04:48 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-8-113.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Operation timed out] 20:05:23 -!- rpg__ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:46 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 20:05:55 *salex* performs the canonical new computer test: how long to compile latest sblc 20:06:05 (find ... :key #'car) ? 20:06:59 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E458B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:23 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:35 salex: What are some typical numbers? 20:10:05 kreuter: as a one-off, http://xach.com/tmp/asdf-installable.txt has some interesting patterns 20:10:55 hm 20:11:06 wgl: for build times? I think someone had a chart... 20:11:36 No, I mean for your particular new computer test. 20:11:42 salex: my new laptop is the fastest computer i've ever personally used. it's a little weird. (it's also the quietest and not nearly the hottest) 20:11:53 Xach: same here, now 20:12:03 (the laptop arrived today) 20:12:08 -!- spiderbyte [n=spiderby@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:35 fsvo `fast', anyway. I'm exluding the clusters. 20:13:00 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.121] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:05 hmm. run-tests.sh hit ldb with heap exhausted, not good 20:13:07 what kind of laptops you guys using? i need a new one. 20:13:07 threads? 20:13:22 drewc: most lispers have Mac laptops. 20:13:24 salex: in which test? 20:13:25 drewc: macbook. 20:13:32 macbook pro 20:13:36 the core 2 duo is, as they say, "hot shit" 20:13:47 *stassats`* has thinkpad 20:13:48 sigh.. i might have to give in and go apple. 20:13:55 hm. Darwin is a slightly funky platform for SBCL. 20:14:03 thinkpad 20:14:11 dell laptop here, thinking of getting an eee >_> 20:14:14 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-160-83.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:14:18 I have a macbook with the core 2. However, it is running in 32 bit mode, and I suspect that the 64 bit amd will beat it in a performance test. 20:14:24 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 20:14:26 At els2008, there were about 98% macs, 2% pcs. 20:14:27 but main stuff done on an amd x2 pc 20:14:30 yes, the new eee, and just ssh into a real workstation. 20:14:31 *dcrawford* A21p whispers from 2001AD 20:14:32 i was thinking of a thinkpad too. 20:14:39 kreuter: cor-test-27646/core-test.core 20:14:41 wgl: what are you running on it that is running in 32-bit mode? 20:14:50 I can't imagine why you'd buy a MacBook and not run OS X on it. 20:14:54 mac osx 20:15:01 salex: core.test.sh? 20:15:07 yeah, looks it. 20:15:09 put in a preorder for a pandora: openpandora.org 20:15:15 i'll look into it properly later 20:15:22 that shouldn't happen. 20:15:23 I fully leverage the power of OS X by using my new laptop for xterm, emacs, firefox, and sbcl. 20:15:30 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 20:15:31 fwiw, i didn't pick or pay for this machine, but it is nice :) 20:15:43 chandler: osx runs 32 bit mode so far as I can tell. 20:15:48 kreuter: that's what i'm thinking 20:15:52 :) 20:16:01 wgl: and how are you "telling" that? 20:16:17 also, which part of OS X are you looking at? 20:16:27 that test script should print a few output messages if pieces succeed. do you see any successes? 20:16:29 chandler: file /usr/local/bin/sbcl says Mach-o executable i386 20:16:44 that's not OS X. 20:17:13 chandler: excuse me? 20:17:28 that's SBCL, not OS X. 20:17:28 kreuter: sorry, it's scrolled past now, rebuild without threads. So I'll try again once I have a useable system 20:17:39 spiderbyte [n=spiderby@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 20:17:43 salex: okay. 20:17:59 chandler: Well, gcc is also i386 on the box. 20:19:07 *sigh* 20:19:10 heh. 20:19:50 chandler: Much of /usr/bin is i386, but there are some _64 bits there. 20:19:58 Yes, Xcode's gcc is a 32-bit binary. It is perfectly capable of producing 64-bit binaries. 20:20:16 wgl: if there are *any* 64 bits there, that tells you something, no? 20:20:20 chandler: that's unpossible! sixty-four is clearly bigger than thirty-two! 20:20:35 Yes, it does. Then why is sbcl i386? 20:20:43 Because it was compiled that way. 20:21:46 in case anyone is curious, the time is about 4 1/2 min 20:22:05 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E473F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:06 Xach: this machin also has as much memory as any of mine have (4Gb) 20:22:10 kind of crazy 20:22:13 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 20:23:15 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:24 xbxb [n=xb@p54ABF550.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:39 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:24:49 -!- hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:08 -!- tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2F57F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:30:15 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:36 kreuter: http://xach.com/tmp/asdf-install-systems.tgz has almost all of them. 20:30:53 salex: what speed is the processor in that laptop? 20:31:38 my 2.4GHz C2D MacBook Pro does not build that fast. 20:32:04 build what how fast? 20:32:06 oh, you're probably building x86, not x86-64 20:32:18 minion: tell Ifur about logs 20:32:18 Ifur: please see logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 20:32:19 kreuter: a quick grep shows only 16 files (out of 750) use :around at all. 20:32:47 -!- nicolas_e [n=nicolas@ARennes-358-1-27-127.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:34:37 You're discussing something related to ASDF. Distribution? 20:35:29 tic: i fetched nearly all asdf-installable programs from cliki, and kreuter wanted to know some statistics about certain things in their .asd system files. 20:35:37 staffordrootbeer [n=shaun@nat/yahoo/x-248ae6827ec33859] has joined #lisp 20:35:52 Xach, cool, thanks. 20:36:02 What's it ultimately for? 20:36:04 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 20:36:09 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:36:20 Xach: ok. 20:36:40 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:36:55 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:58 salex: don't suppose you've worked out the answer to my hmm question yet? 20:36:58 Krystof, memo from salex: I've got some thoughts about the posterior sampling. I'll try and make them sensible and email. 20:37:02 oh, look 20:37:15 hey presto. In return, I offer you a clx that stands a chance of working with truetype 20:37:18 tic: I'd like to make something that's like asdf-install, but better. I'm trying to get metadata related to asdf-installable stuff. 20:38:03 Xach, aha, the blob-and-portable-tar you were discussing yesterday was it? What's the win over how it works now? 20:38:08 from some of that data i made http://xach.com/tmp/hunchentoot.png for example. 20:38:26 *tic* has a look at the honkin' chicken 20:39:19 So you're going to do deps better, I presume. 20:39:23 tic: Well, I don't have anything anyone can use right now, so I lose at that. 20:40:08 asdf-install suffers from some unfair things, like an identically-named fork that works in subtly different ways and that doesn't work in nearly as many places Common Lisp does. 20:40:12 I think you might have fun clustering dependencies and inferring social interactions between their maintainers 20:40:37 ASDFBOOK 20:40:46 Krystof: cliki itself is a social cluster phenomenon too. 20:40:51 Xach has probably seen this before, but some others might not: in about 2004 I made 20:41:09 Jikes. Has ASDF-INSTALL's evil twin spread? 20:41:11 Xach: for sure. (Just last week I added yet another Proposed%20ANSI...) 20:41:16 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:41:32 since i was made to scroll, i had to test how long it would take to compile sbcl-1.0.19 and it was 4 min 13 seconds 20:41:42 tic: well, since the very high level idea is pretty good, it's not surprising. 20:41:43 but noticed it only used one core when compiling 20:41:50 well, yes 20:42:07 tic: and the original doesn't work on anything but sbcl, so that helped spur distribution as well. 20:42:08 lisp compilation is not easy to parallelize 20:42:16 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:16 Xach, ah. 20:42:34 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.194.114] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:42:52 What do you guys think? I wrote what I did to get a Lisp web development enviroment running starting from a fresh Debian stable install: http://kzar.co.uk/blog/?p=13 20:42:56 perhaps we should have the build scripts spawn dummy threads, just so the other cores don't get cold. 20:42:58 Krystof: for example, no walter g. pelissaro software on cliki 20:43:05 Krystof, not like that is an issue, firefox tends to break if you compile too much at the same time. Tho, on a quadcore system, that hurts a little 20:43:22 Ifur: no Carl Shapiro software either 20:43:26 oe of the reasons why xcvb started was to be able to gain parallelized compilation 20:43:36 whoops, that was meant for Xach (and was a snide comment anyway) 20:43:53 was about to google it 20:43:54 hehe 20:44:02 dcrawford: that only works if the files are actually completely independent and the underlying lisp doesn't have a big compiler lock anyway 20:44:14 LispWire also springs to mind 20:44:28 Krystof: nah, they start a fresh Lisp instance for each source file. 20:44:35 That 'Proposed ANSI...' is quite long. 20:44:49 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:44:53 If making lots of small, single-purpose (one might say "trivial") libraries is encouraged, parallel compilation is just a fork() away! 20:45:21 kreuter: ok, then files which don't have significant compile-time effect 20:45:37 Krystof: that's what "cfasls" are for! 20:45:39 Krystof, that's what cfasls are for 20:45:42 heh 20:45:47 jynx 20:46:03 if you demand that the sky be green, the problem becomes acquiring sufficient paint. 20:46:05 I hope this brave new ITA world is working for you 20:46:08 A little bird told me that Marc Battyani might be at this month's Boston Lisp meeting 20:46:40 Xach: no walter g pelissaro lisp software on the Internet, as far as Google knows 20:47:08 Krystof: I've screwed up his name. Let me dig up the right spelling. 20:47:09 I seem to be completely missing out on the source of this snideness. 20:47:26 http://xach.livejournal.com/139782.html has some info 20:48:06 aha 20:48:50 Xach, do you buy that last comment alleg by walter? 20:49:16 dcrawford: sure. the planet lisp effect killed his website for a day. 20:49:26 um 20:49:31 planet lisp killed a site? ouch :P 20:49:38 how many visitors does planet.lisp get in a day? 20:49:39 xristos [n=xristos@93-97-209-126.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:49:40 yeah, but it was quota-related. 20:49:49 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:56 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:50:13 bhyde [n=bhyde@96.237.135.36] has joined #lisp 20:50:16 not like it actually hit a physical network or hardware limit. 20:50:28 more importantly, howcome there isn't a spiffy visualization of how many visitors planet.lisp gets? :) 20:50:42 _8david: Is there any particular reason why CXML checks for wide character support every time I load it? 20:50:44 -!- hijole [i=IceChat7@ppp85-140-190-251.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit ["A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well"] 20:50:45 planet.lisp-2.0 20:50:49 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 20:51:02 kreuter: I don't really know how many visitors read it per day, but about 1800 subscribe via google and 250 via newsgator. 20:51:16 chandler: I think I'm the source of the snideness 20:51:42 Heh. 20:52:17 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["eaten by grue"] 20:52:17 Xach: that can be visualized! 20:53:17 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:46 *Xach* doesn't have the interest 20:54:35 and 0.5% less interest from today, right? 20:54:53 (ho ho, I am funny am I not) 20:54:57 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 20:56:06 Krystof: I'm sorry, but I don't get the basis point. 20:56:32 kzar: that is a cool idea. 20:56:46 kzar: can that be wrapped up in a deb? 20:57:25 kzar: i find the scrolly box a little hard to read, too. 20:57:25 -!- rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:57:39 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54ABF550.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:57:44 chandler: am liboring you? 20:57:52 xbxb [n=xb@p54ABF550.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:53 Xach: Yea I was having trouble getting blody wordpress to display it properly 20:58:04 isch wordpress. :( 20:58:11 Xach: Yea you could do it as a .deb I guess, never done one though but 'tis a good idea 20:58:14 mozzyb [n=mozzyb@135.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:18 *tic* hates the piece of crap that drives his web site; alas there's nothing better. 20:58:38 write your own in lisp 20:59:10 Xach: Would be awesome to do like apt-get install lisp-web-enviroment and then wait a while 20:59:10 a blog has to support so much crap, so it's easier to just work around the problems in WP and hack away. 20:59:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 20:59:28 i have to write trackback support :} 20:59:37 stassats`, moreover, I don't have the time to spend to write a full-featured CMS. 20:59:46 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54ABF550.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:59:52 i got around the admin interface cheaply by implementing xml-rpc and just doing the work in a blog client app 21:00:06 Krystof: Hah. I think you've won. 21:00:15 xbxb [n=xb@p54ABF550.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:27 manuel_: Don't bother. Trackback is full of spam these days :-( 21:00:38 I had to turn it off. 21:00:40 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@96.237.135.36] has quit [] 21:00:45 oh 21:00:48 well then comments 21:00:52 at the least 21:01:13 thing is wordpress deals with all spam courtesy of the akismet service. 21:01:29 there's just so much infrastructure built around wordpress there's no point in making your own, even though wordpress sucks. :) 21:01:47 (at least if you don't have a bunch of time) 21:01:59 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-908418c56cddcda0] has joined #lisp 21:02:05 tic: Yea that's what I figured pretty much 21:02:22 or if you don't care about trackback or comments 21:03:05 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:03:37 wordpress makes for such admin overhead though 21:03:47 spending some time to write comment handling code with spam integration 21:03:51 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:03:52 is not so unproductive as it may seem 21:06:09 kreuter: aroundp? 21:06:33 Krystof: hi! haven't got round to gathering my thoughts into email, but I'll try to soon 21:06:38 -!- thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@facepunch.mobi] has quit ["leaving"] 21:06:57 OK, I look forward to it 21:07:08 thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@unaffiliated/printk] has joined #lisp 21:07:33 main issue is the `shape' of the underlying distribution, I think. If it's `pointy' in roughly the right spot, you can get a decent estimate, but that doesnt' mean you'll get great samples. if you follow 21:08:16 definitely looks like .21 is dying in core.test.sh with threads enabled 21:08:36 (on this mac) 21:09:03 salex: hi 21:09:40 really? there isn't a forward-backward algorithm analogue? That sucks 21:10:15 Krystof: well, no, i'm not sure, but it didn't drop out immediately 21:10:21 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:26 i'm playing around with it (and asked a couple of people) 21:11:33 it seems like it should work. anyway, i'll sketch out where i've got to as soon as I get 3 other things of my list. 21:12:28 kreuter: las message i get is "writing 11 lutexes to the core ... \n done] 21:12:32 if that helps at all 21:12:57 is this in an unthreaded build? 21:13:06 no, threaded 21:13:10 ok. 21:13:11 can you do 'sh run-tests.sh core.test.sh > test.log 2>&1'? 21:13:12 unthreaded passes fine 21:13:18 and post the log someplace? 21:13:27 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:13:29 of course 21:13:34 thank you 21:14:35 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:00 -!- will-power [n=The_Mani@c-98-200-239-171.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:16:19 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:16:43 http://www.math.uh.edu/~simon/test.log 21:17:17 -!- fugue88 [n=dsowen@fugue88.dsl.xmission.com] has quit ["leaving"] 21:17:20 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 21:18:07 salex: what's your current e-mail address? 21:18:38 simon at math dot uh dot edu 21:18:55 (also at that link, minus the file 21:20:19 Krystof: btw, what I'm `worried' about is that these training approaches all have an EM algorithm flavour to them, correct? And in that case, you can get away with substantial disturtions of the underlying approximaged distribution, so long as the main `peak' isn't moved. 21:20:33 So i'm trying to convince myself they aren't distorted 21:20:46 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:27 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:36 ah, ok, deep machine learningy stuff. I tend to the belief that everything is a Gaussian unless I am told otherwise :) 21:21:46 Krystof: oh, and what's your most used address these days? 21:21:56 heh. yeah, that simplifies life, true! 21:22:02 technically, my work address is c.rhodes at gold.ac.uk 21:22:03 that's odd, the first save-lisp-and-die test isn't doing anything interesting. how can we get through make-target-2.sh if slad doesn't work? 21:22:04 michaelw: http://xach.com/tmp/shlad.png is not quite there 21:22:20 but csr21 at cantab.net tends to be more fun to read 21:22:25 gotcha. 21:22:44 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A275F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:57 Ifur_ [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 21:23:02 i'm also trying to keep things off the uh one to some degree, under assumption it will go away soon 21:23:39 kreuter: ??? 21:23:43 -!- Ifur [n=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:23:49 -!- Ifur_ is now known as Ifur 21:24:15 oops, the file is there now. 21:24:25 and it is "shlad" 21:24:52 i predict this new macbook will make our old G4 ibook damn near unusable. 21:24:53 *Xach* has a very short vecto program that needs adjustment for output quality 21:25:08 shouldn't it be shlod? 21:25:19 erm, slod. in that case? 21:25:21 benny [n=benny@i577A10DE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:25:50 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:25:52 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:26:52 Krystof: anyway, promise I'll have more of a look at this as soon as can manage 21:27:09 I'm about to send you a scary plain-text e-mail, if I can finish it before falling asleep 21:27:48 ok great. I'm a bit under the gun as I have a couple of job applications to send out this weekend and I've been putting off the `research statement' and `teaching statement' crap 21:27:55 so i've got that, on top of the usual 21:28:10 oh, and bashing this new machine into shape so we can demo on in on friday. 21:28:32 kreuter: did you learn anything useful from that? 21:29:52 um, how big is the core file that gets dumped? 21:30:04 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:20 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 21:31:29 the printout suggests that there's 1.48 GiB allocated in generation 0. that also seems fishy. 21:31:31 mythos [n=mythos@091-141-068-025.dyn.orange.at] has joined #lisp 21:32:04 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:32:36 yeah, i saw that. 21:33:15 the size of the core file isn't important. 21:33:27 i had to break it to get out though, and can't find the core (never finished, or trying to dump a monster one?) 21:33:45 no, the test cleans up after itself. 21:34:07 -!- N-Dex1 [n=gentoo@c-67-164-213-131.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:26 hm. can you start a fresh instance, save-lisp-and-die into some core, and then start up with that core? 21:34:27 ah, there it is. 25m 21:35:11 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:50 ok 21:38:20 no complaints from that. the new core is about 25M as expected 21:38:41 runs ok with --core "new.core" . anything I should try? 21:38:46 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-6-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 21:39:24 *kreuter* is confused. 21:39:24 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:47 there must be some bug that's triggered by code in the test infrastructure. 21:40:09 did I do this correctly? I ran ./src/runtime/sbcl --core output/sbcl.core 21:40:15 dumped that, re-ran 21:40:21 yeah 21:40:34 ok, just checking. so the test is tickling something else 21:40:45 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 21:40:51 an easy test would be to define some function, save the core, and then run that function in the new core. 21:41:06 (that's actually what the first test in core.test.sh does, IIRC) 21:41:10 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:41:18 k, just asec 21:42:17 Xach: Do you think the scrolly box is easier now? 21:42:20 -!- xbxb is now known as xbxb|afk 21:42:24 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:42:30 worked fine (defun f (x) (pprint x)) 21:43:01 kreuter: we can play with this another time, but I have to go 21:43:06 okay 21:43:11 i'll see if I can trigger on my other mac, just 'cause 21:43:17 bbl 21:43:23 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit ["meetings. bah!"] 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