00:00:12 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:01:01 ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-65-26-178-248.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:14 -!- vanLiempt is now known as Liempt 00:04:46 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:15:34 Anyone fancy making a dot graph for me? 00:17:16 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:18:37 http://xach.com/tmp/deps.lisp has data on the dependencies of every asdf-installable system on cliki i could actually load 00:19:24 car of each list is the system, cdr is the deps 00:19:27 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 00:19:44 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 00:23:09 Xach: neat 00:23:13 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:23:44 just put up a new one 00:23:48 sorted by dependency count 00:24:24 philip-jose is the "winner" 00:25:53 you forgot "dear lazyweb" 00:26:03 -!- dostoyev1ky is now known as dostoyevsky 00:26:34 sorry 00:26:35 Xach, isn't your deps.lisp to dot actually so trivial you could have written it in the time you typed on IRC? 00:26:50 sohail: no. plus i don't have graphviz tools handy. 00:26:55 hm 00:26:56 so i guess what i really want is the output. 00:27:03 a pretty picture or pdf 00:27:22 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-126-249.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:27:23 well, love to help you but I'm fighting with Perforce at the moment 00:27:37 ok 00:28:03 I don't think it's going to be a pretty picture 00:28:42 pdf, then. 00:30:12 no fair, you changed the format 00:30:34 sorry...i did mention that. 00:30:41 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-43-247.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:34:17 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-78-191.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:28 wee. ~no slow down on safe points. ~1.5% less time on a stupid consing loops, 2% more time on stupid non-consing loops. 00:35:35 Xach: I hope you have the side of a building to hang this on 00:35:57 (really, it's too big and crashes most of the output plugins) 00:36:13 ok 00:37:15 hefner: drewc's boat might be enough :) 00:38:15 I used deal with huge graphviz graphs and the only way I could figure out to view them was with some piece of crap java program that could read the partially-digested output from graphviz 00:38:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:39:05 rg123 [n=chatzill@69.134.246.86] has joined #lisp 00:40:11 hey Xach I did something that spits out a graph that I can't load if you want it ;-) 00:40:20 hefner: why not SVG? 00:40:30 that's a thought. 00:40:32 A decent browser should let you zoom in/out and pan. 00:40:38 what is it with your weenie computers? my graphviz can display it fine. 00:40:55 I wonder if such a decent browser existed in 2007 when I actually cared. 00:41:01 Opera? 00:41:05 hah 00:41:49 firefox today offers no zoom in/out 00:42:19 Xach, thought you said you don't have graphviz :-/ 00:42:19 you could do zoom via JS 00:42:33 xach is the local JS expert 00:42:40 All the whining made me install it. 00:43:08 ah 00:43:11 *hefner* wonders where the code to is JS/SVG function grapher went 00:43:36 Xach, no viewer I have can handle it 00:44:13 Xach: I hope you're going to put this on reddit with a comment about lisp having no libraries 00:44:46 hefner: if the graph is smaller than a small town when printed out, that's not a respectable amount of libraries. 00:45:44 just change the font size 00:45:51 ths_ [n=ths@X6ac4.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:47:12 god, cl-glfw is awful 00:47:49 the one with ~130 .asd files ? 00:47:54 yeah :) 00:48:15 fe[nl]ix: D: 00:48:18 omg D: 00:49:07 wow firefox does a pretty good job of viewing the dependencies in svg 00:49:25 it does, yeah 00:49:37 eog gave up 00:49:46 I'm inclined to take SVG more seriously than I did ten minutes ago 00:50:01 ff doesn't even blink it seems 00:52:51 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 00:53:09 can anyone suggest a nice way to dump a PDF in a sexp-like representation such that I could search around in Emacs to see how it's structured? (or a better idea for understanding the layout of a particular pdf document?) 00:53:54 time for tcr's object-graph-to-dot 00:55:18 -!- rg123 [n=chatzill@69.134.246.86] has left #lisp 00:56:14 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 00:56:17 -!- ths [n=ths@X43a7.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:36 http://xach.com/tmp/deps.pdf has a graph of a subset of the deps 00:56:54 r00k [n=ben@216.93.247.56] has joined #lisp 00:57:00 *hefner* watches evince go up in smoke 00:58:48 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.83.209] has joined #lisp 01:00:02 here's a graph from far in the past: http://adrian.gimp.org/rpm-graph/rpm-graph-1.jpg 01:01:16 sabetts` [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:17 *Xach* is still proud of his shout-out in http://adrian.gimp.org/rpm-graph/info.html 01:02:24 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:02:26 Can anybody teach me how I can make this symbol-macrolet work? http://paste.lisp.org/display/68080 01:03:56 tomoyuki28jp: this is one of those cases where i dont think sample code helps the situation :) 01:05:21 tomoyuki28jp: what is the error? 01:05:22 tomoyuki28jp: you could use defclass instead along with with-slots 01:05:35 seems like thats what yer shooting for 01:06:35 kpreid: The error msg is Compile-time error: malformed symbol/expansion pair: (Y (INTERN "MYSTRUCT-Y") STR) 01:07:07 kpreid: I removed "funcall" from the pasted one 01:07:44 -!- holymoly [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:08:15 tomoyuki28jp: how about `(,(intern "MAKESTRUCT-Y") str)? 01:08:17 tomoyuki28jp: then you have three things there which is wrong 01:08:29 sabetts`: no, iirc symbol-macrolet's expansion is not evaluated 01:08:48 kpreid: ah, ok then 01:10:20 kpreid: Could you tell me what the three things? 01:11:54 1) you have a malformed symbol/expansion pair: (Y (INTERN "MYSTRUCT-Y") STR) 01:12:27 tomoyuki28jp: what drewc said. you're mixing up the parts of the expansion with what symbol-macrolet wants, a single symbol and a single form (the expansion) 01:13:12 drewc: kpreid: yes, I got the point. thanks. 01:14:23 tomoyuki28jp: btw, unless *package* is varying, using intern there is silly 01:14:39 2) funcall is not a setf'able place 01:15:23 kpreid: I am trying to create with-struct macro, and I want to make a symbol name from a string. 01:15:42 drewc: apply is... ;) 01:15:59 pkhuong: i've abused that :) 01:16:35 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 01:16:38 tomoyuki28jp: then the with-struct macro should intern them and put them into the symbol-macrolet form 01:17:13 better hope you get the package right 01:17:30 tomoyuki28jp: why are you creating the symbol from a string? 01:17:40 drewc: because defstruct does 01:17:48 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:18:17 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:57 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:29 drewc: I am trying to do things like this (let ((x ((symbol-name (type-of struct-name)) "-X" instance))) ... ) 01:19:52 s/let/symbol-macrolet/ 01:20:30 Am I doing silly things? So that I don't have to pass the name of struct when I use with-struct macro. 01:20:46 tomoyuki28jp: you'll have to get the name explicitly, just like defstruct. 01:20:50 _badlambda [n=badlambd@201-67-191-136.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:21:06 in fact, it'd be even better to specify the accessors' full names. 01:21:17 tomoyuki28jp: this is silly yes. 01:21:33 drewc: Thanks to be so honest lol 01:23:28 tomoyuki28jp: you cannot possibly know the type of the struct at macro-expand time, so you have to write some extremely dynamic hackish code to make this work.. if it's at all possible to do. 01:24:12 if you have one specific instance where you need something like this, write a specialized macro. If you find yourself needing something like this often, you're doing something wrong :) 01:24:50 drewc: You are right. Thanks for your advice. 01:24:57 sunwukong [n=salvi@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 01:25:55 tomoyuki28jp: even better advice would be to use CLOS, structs are a rarely required optimisation hack. 01:27:25 structs are beautiful 01:27:37 except for the redefinition snafu 01:27:47 defstruct and die 01:27:53 defstruct is awesome. 01:29:20 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-161.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:30:23 drewc: When do we really need CLOS when we hack in lisp? I was thinking like package, structure, closure and macro give us enough stuff and we rarely need the type of class. I just started learning lisp, so I might mis-understand though. 01:30:43 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:59 clos is quite handy >_> 01:32:05 mixes quite well with a functional style, too 01:32:16 tomoyuki28jp: CLOS is an incredibly powerful object system that you should constantly be exploiting. 01:32:36 but you're never really forced to use clos. You don't *have* to use it. you can write all of your lisp code in C-style procedures if you want. 01:32:50 but it's about having tools handy that you could use to write code to make your life easier. 01:33:08 there is a middle way. 01:33:26 tomoyuki28jp: most lisp applications (all?) i have worked on used CLOS extensively. 01:33:30 and you can use generic fns without classes 01:33:33 -!- badlambda [n=badlambd@189-11-165-53.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:41 ABC, Always Be CLOSing 01:33:58 spacebat: yeah, I love the generic functions. 01:34:07 spacebat:not really.. no. you don't have to define classes, but you are using them. 01:34:09 Hmm, `Always Be Common-LOSing...' 01:34:10 Xach: lol > ABC 01:34:30 Always be consing 01:34:42 I'm a Common LOSer 01:35:01 got CONS? 01:35:50 Create Lots of Slots 01:35:56 lol 01:36:25 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-4aee18283a17804a] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:37:00 a sufficiently powerful object system is 'CLOS enough'. 01:37:23 (incf kpreid) 01:37:33 *hefner* realized he may have never gotten the name "closer-mop" 01:37:50 (I've had that thought around for a while, but not an opportunity until now) 01:38:41 sykopomp: When we hack in other langs, I think we only have two choices, one is c-style, and another one is OO. But in lisp, I think we have at least three styles, 1:c-style, 2:OO (w/wo class) 3:closure and macros. 01:39:13 and functional, and symbolic 01:39:23 but I may be talking our my arse 01:39:26 tomoyuki28jp: imagine what can happen if you combine these approaches! 01:39:28 s/our/out/ 01:39:30 4: asm style with labels and go :) 01:39:34 what's symbolic? using symbol property lists instead of structures or objects? :) 01:39:35 :) 01:39:56 drewc: yeah, you are right :) 01:40:10 from what I can gather, its delaying evaluation and using symbols for things instead of variables immediately 01:40:13 imperative functional object oriented meta-programming would best describe my approach :) 01:40:18 logic/functional PLs have even more possibilities 01:43:08 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 01:43:29 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Client Quit] 01:46:59 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #lisp 01:50:00 hmm... i'm installing alexandria... because of CL+SSL, because of CFFI. on older version of sbcl. it errors out with: "Symbol "SIMPLE-READER-ERROR" not found in the SB-INT package. 01:50:33 " ... any way out of it except for upgrading sbcl? 01:50:35 sladegen: use a more recent version of sbcl, or hunt the offending form, comment it out and hope it's not needed. 01:51:50 well it's in some (define-condition ...) form /hmmmsez. 01:53:28 sohail: in case you were too impressed with firefox's svg support, try this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Homeric_Greece.svg 01:54:55 hefner, thanks... not 01:55:01 it's still going 01:56:24 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:43 Xach: I just came across "Making a small CL project" during a google search. Very useful, thanks for taking the time. 01:59:03 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:59:07 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:00:50 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:51 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 02:02:47 pkhuong: commented out and hacked... compiled. praying ;) 02:04:22 skv [n=sasha@sub26-151.member.dsl-only.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:47 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:31 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:56 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 02:09:49 -!- xristos [n=xristos@93-97-222-156.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:50 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:10:56 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [Client Quit] 02:11:13 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:20:56 -!- abend_ [n=sasha@sub26-151.member.dsl-only.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:14 spiderbyte [n=spiderby@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 02:28:10 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:20 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:29:35 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:09 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-43-247.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 02:35:34 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 02:45:44 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.197.4] has joined #lisp 02:56:14 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.64.137] has joined #lisp 02:57:08 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:00:40 jgrant`` [n=user@dsl231-043-085.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:40 -!- jgrant` [n=user@dsl231-043-085.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:07:35 JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:41 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 03:15:31 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:20:02 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-65-26-178-248.indy.res.rr.com] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 03:23:47 good morning 03:25:10 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:25:47 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.64.137] has left #lisp 03:28:45 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:33:01 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 03:38:16 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 03:39:14 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 03:39:30 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:47:12 morning beach 03:48:59 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-78-191.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:49:56 Bon matin M. La Plage. 03:50:00 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:50:12 hey all, I'm trying to require something in my .sbclrc, and it loads fine at the repl once everything is loaded... but not in the rc 03:50:27 so maybe I'm missing something about how the init file is supposed to work >_> 03:51:40 sykopomp: what is the error you get in the latter case? 03:51:50 don't know how to require 03:52:20 checked quoting, checked spelling, copy-pasted. Works in repl, not in rc file 03:52:30 asdf hasn't loaded yet 03:52:47 I think (require :asdf) still works, via magic 03:52:48 so I should (require 'asdf) I guess? 03:52:53 k, thanks :) 03:53:08 ah yes, that would do it 03:53:40 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:53:55 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@XPLR-TS-10-VAN-67-201-133-74.barrettxplore.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:13 how does that work, anyway? 03:54:38 alien technology is my assumption 03:54:58 oudeis__ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-78-191.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:33 oh, I've probably had (require :asdf) in my .sbclrl for a hundred years. That explains it. 03:56:26 whats asdf needed for? 03:56:33 loading stuff :P 03:56:58 ok 03:58:18 haha. I just set up asdf-binary-locations 03:58:30 now proceeding to rebuild most of cl.net 03:58:38 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.197.4] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:59:04 it's sort of sad that I only use ironclad for a single password-hashing function. I feel like I should look for other places to use it in. 04:03:12 -!- jgrant`` [n=user@dsl231-043-085.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:14 jgrant`` [n=user@dsl231-043-085.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:51 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:06:12 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:06:41 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:08:11 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:19 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:09:33 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:09 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 04:14:47 sykopomp: you don't need asdf-binary-locations! 04:14:53 *drewc* hates that library 04:15:01 *sykopomp* likes it and is already using it 04:15:30 unless you know of something much easier and compelling than this :P 04:15:33 sykopomp: what's the use case? 04:16:01 I'm sick of having .fasls all over the place, and want to be able to delete an entire folder when I decide to start fresh. 04:16:19 find . -name \*.fasl | xargs rm 04:16:52 or I could just have everything in ~/.fasls and rm -rf ~/.fasls 04:17:00 :) 04:18:02 maybe a better solution would be not having to clear fasls in the first place 04:18:12 that would also be nice 04:18:19 then again 04:18:30 I'd rather just not have them in my source repo either way 04:18:47 makes it all cluttered-looking 04:21:02 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-38.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:21:08 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-114.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 04:21:29 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43EF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:04 gah .. this is not a good enough reason to have to add a bloody new parameter to your .sbclrc every time you want to run an sbcl from somewhere else than you've already specified. 04:22:19 *drewc* has more than a few sbcl's around. 04:22:30 you do? I don't >_> 04:22:39 also, it's one line :| 04:23:41 you complain about cluttered source repos .. i have a .boring and complain about cluttered .sbclrc's 04:24:41 hehe :P 04:24:53 I just use whatever works for me :3 04:25:00 (isn't that what lisp is all about?) 04:25:12 (besides making everything else look inferior) 04:25:17 mmmm smug 04:25:22 heh 04:25:36 in case it isn't obvious, i used to use that library. it used to work for me... 04:25:55 and of course, that's the exact argument i here from php programmers... 04:26:06 another group i was a part of :) 04:26:12 drewc: I don't run multiple sbcls. Heck, I don't even really run anything besides sbcl. Although, I use clisp as a calculator. 04:26:27 sykopomp: you will... mark my words you will. 04:26:32 ;_; 04:26:33 :D 04:26:49 I should be doing homework, not fixing bugs 04:26:54 sykopomp: Heh. Me too. Annoys some of my colleagues. 04:27:07 and you'll get pissed at asdf-binary-locations, and realize it's a solution looking for a problem :) 04:27:29 sykopomp: much more fun to discover this on your own though .. don't listen to me! :) 04:27:33 this whole go-back-to-college thing is starting to seem like a really bad idea now that I want to spend all my time on something more productive than playing video games :( 04:27:46 writing video games? 04:27:59 drewc: Yeah. I think Gentoo's trying to shift away for a-b-l, heven't been watching the message traffic. 04:28:17 hefner: well... yes. Although I'm having more fun with the general coding thing. The fact that I'm writing a video game is mostly an initial motivation. 04:28:21 reading reddit,,, 04:28:31 aja: gentoo has worse problems. common-lisp-controller is a lot more b0rken than a-b-l :) 04:28:42 I haven't really done anything particularly video gaming in the 3 or so months I've been working on it. Only now am I even able to log in and mess around with some stuff. 04:29:05 s/video gaming/video-gamey 04:29:38 I needed something to learn to program with >_> 04:29:42 drewc: c-l-c is gone for anyone working with the development branch of lisp on Gentoo, So, it's days are numbered. 04:29:58 hefner: Hi, I noticed earlier you expressed some disappointment at cl-glfw. If you want glfw bindings, there's antoher library called lglfw that might less awful. 04:30:08 aja: i'm glad they came to their senses. 04:30:34 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:30:48 mikezor: I was only complaining about the number of systems it defines clogging up the dependency graph 04:31:09 I see, too bad. And I was hoping for my first user ;) 04:31:25 I'm not sure what glfw is, but I aspire to some day be in the position to express a more informed disappointment. 04:32:13 Lightweight windowing framework for opengl programming, basically. 04:32:18 hefner: ha... i had the exact same moment.. you read xachs blog too i assume. 04:33:03 hmm, glfw... 04:33:07 i have been using sdl + opengl 04:33:15 seems to work well enough 04:33:16 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:33:34 any disadvantages compared to cl-glfw or lglfw? 04:35:06 jrockway: i was going to make the point (on reddit) that given specializer-direct-methods, one could make the argument that methods 'live' in classes in CL just like smalltalk. 04:35:25 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has joined #lisp 04:35:25 drewc: at times like this, I remember that I wanted to write a 3d graph visualizer hack 04:35:40 jrockway: it wasn't worth a post, but IRC seems like a good medium :) 04:35:45 heh 04:35:48 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45481.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:50 yeah, that article was getting kind of long 04:36:00 I never made any headway on 2d graph layout, but 3d seems like an easy way out 04:36:02 any intelligent discussion is way over the heads of most redditers anyway :) 04:36:19 jrockway: indeed, especially when lisp is involved :) 04:36:41 yeah 04:36:51 i remember the days when reddit was mostly lisp and haskell 04:37:04 jrockway: I used to use glfw back when I was doing c++ as it was smaller and could be statically linked. But I'm not sure any of that matters in a lisp context... 04:37:06 then one day, all good programming languages started becoming unpopular 04:37:17 i remember when haskell wasn't yet a topic :) 04:37:22 heh 04:37:27 it was all lisp and python BITD 04:37:51 i am ok with discussions about python 04:37:56 as long as they aren't "perl sucks" 04:38:07 but reddit is too favoriable to php and java now 04:38:59 ya, proggit has lost some of it's magic. Like Wiki before it, doomed by the influx of the masses. 04:39:08 yeah :( 04:39:13 news.yc isn't very good anymore either 04:39:23 now it is all business and "your abstractions don't matter, my website MAKES MONEY" 04:39:24 news.yc was never good imo :) 04:39:31 i liked it for a while 04:39:43 i am really unhappy with social news sites in general now though 04:39:43 too much pg fanboism 04:39:51 yeah 04:39:54 the pg fanbois died though 04:40:02 you can't use the word "blub" without getting downmodded 04:40:03 which i find sad 04:40:28 well, it's a bit of a silly term. 04:40:54 it made sense in context years ago, but i might downmod use of 'blub' myself. 04:41:07 it is a good generic argument :) 04:41:19 lately I've realized that if I were to suddenly become an "enterprise", I wouldn't know how or what to write my applications in 04:41:20 "i think php is great, you don't need a MOP or closures or ..." 04:41:22 "blub." 04:41:26 given that arc is a blub, i think it invalidates the whole idea. 04:41:33 now that is true 04:41:44 pg's fear of OO is really unfortunate 04:41:46 hefner: ACL :) 04:41:56 i think java left a very bad taste in his mouth 04:42:13 pg is a smart guy, but he's not much of a lisper IMNSHO 04:42:24 he has changed 04:42:29 ANSI Common Lisp was generally pretty good 04:42:30 he always came off as a schemer to me :\ 04:42:39 although i just found 'graham crackers' today and agree with it 04:42:53 i never did more then flip through ansi common lisp. 04:43:33 http://pastebin.ca/1221435 04:43:40 On Lisp was eye-opening, mostly because he is an engaging writer. but after reading PAIP, On Lisp seemed .. immature? 04:43:54 I need to get myself a copy of PAIP :( 04:44:31 i need to get some lisp books... 04:44:48 I have more java books than lisp books, how awesome is that? 04:44:50 i learned CL from combining my experience with elisp and then reading AMOP 04:44:52 I wonder if anyone else found the "GPS" program at the beginning briefly exciting, or if I'm just a retard. 04:44:55 3 vs 2 04:44:56 :| 04:44:56 and then reading the CLHS 04:45:11 this leaves cute holes in my understanding... i just learned with list* did a few days ago :) 04:45:18 s/with// 04:45:27 actually, "i just learned what list* did" 04:45:28 can't type. 04:46:20 jrockway: AMOP is amazing.. blew me down first time i read it. 04:46:43 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has joined #lisp 04:46:53 hefner: i loved the GPS.. i got exited by the whole idea :) 04:46:57 excited 04:48:11 jrockway: I still discover functions that CL has that i've implemented in various forms... it takes years to intern all this stuff! 04:48:32 yeah 04:48:36 in general, i have no complaints 04:48:55 i was reading someone's scheme code tonight and thought, "why isn't he using a destructuring bind here!?" 04:48:56 drewc: That is reassuring. 04:49:00 well, because scheme doesn't have one :) 04:49:23 doesn't it? seems like that's a pretty important macro to have. 04:49:52 it is not in the "bind" sections of any documentation i could find 04:50:01 and there are some blog posts about how to implement it with a macro 04:50:14 you can also hack around it: 04:50:24 though i guess that a lack of complex lambda lists that do all the fun bits... i suppose i can see why they don't. 04:50:28 ((lambda (x & xs) ....) '(foo bar baz)) 04:59:31 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:02:08 freelab [n=freelab@58.63.83.209] has joined #lisp 05:02:33 -!- freelab [n=freelab@58.63.83.209] has quit [Client Quit] 05:05:02 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:14:06 asdf-binary-location: wfm 05:18:46 wfm? 05:19:54 Works For Me. 05:20:02 good morning 05:20:16 Good Morning! 05:20:28 pjb: yeah. Pretty much. Good solution for now, since I don't have horrible sbcl-mess yet. 05:21:14 That said, I only use it for gentoo installed packages. I don't mess with it. 05:25:21 I want to make some command line tools using sbcl. Can I compile sbcl in a way that the core image size can be saved a bit? 05:27:45 -!- bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:26 huangjs: no, sbcl cores are big. 05:28:36 (assuming that's what you mean) 05:28:41 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-66.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:28:57 drewc: yeah, I know sbcl cores are big 05:29:11 -!- jgrant`` [n=user@dsl231-043-085.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:29:34 jgrant`` [n=user@dsl231-043-085.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:57 morning 05:30:24 huangjs: you might want to consider clisp, which is small, or ecl. which is probably better suited to 'executables', whatever i mean by that. 05:30:47 drewc: hmm...maybe 05:30:58 also, disk space is cheap :) 05:31:20 jrockway: kinda silly to distribute the likes of 'find' in 30mb-format, though. :P 05:31:30 distribute, yes 05:31:33 keep for yourself, who cares 05:31:57 if he's keeping it to himself, he probably has no need to create a core image, since he can just install sbcl and be done with it. 05:32:11 the core loads much faster than sbcl --load foo.lisp 05:32:23 hence the attractiveness for command-line utilities 05:35:05 bzexe is another option. 05:35:18 or run a Lisp shell. 05:35:42 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 05:36:44 has anyone tried to keep a sbcl around running in the "background" all the time? .. and create a small C program that sends "commands" to this (shared) sbcl core? 05:36:47 ..orsomethinglikethat.. 05:37:13 i mean .. "find" could just be a function in the sbcl image .. invoked by some ipc (?) 05:37:26 lnostdal: it has been done .. rob warnock perhaps .. but it's in the c.l.l archives somewhere. 05:37:55 and you don't even need the c program .. it's just a pipe 05:37:58 yeah, some of his posts has some real cool tricks 05:38:23 |ceci ce n'est pas un pipe| .. i just got that. 05:39:00 beach: i think that was your joke .. lol! 05:39:08 indeed 05:39:21 -!- skv is now known as abend 05:39:24 french makes me thinks of monkeys and tables. 05:39:31 milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.147] has joined #lisp 05:40:34 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.147] has quit [Client Quit] 05:41:09 and branches 05:42:43 spiaggia: took me a while :) 05:42:57 *drewc* is a bit slow 05:43:24 it's late, no wonder! 05:43:57 tic: IIRC the joke was made this morning (PST) .. so no, i'm just slow. 05:44:21 drewc, ack 05:44:41 "joke" ... it was more of an amusing anecdote .. but regardless, i just got it now. 05:47:40 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@XPLR-TS-10-VAN-67-201-133-74.barrettxplore.com] has joined #lisp 05:50:44 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:55 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:58:53 drewc: hi - i passed out jet lagged yesterday evening. did you move already? do you want to do it today? 06:00:01 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 06:01:53 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:04:46 borism [n=boris@195-50-205-119-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 06:09:06 eli_ [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has joined #lisp 06:09:09 -!- eli_ is now known as enn 06:11:09 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-197-39-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:12:15 FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:32 H4ns: i didn't see you, so waited. we'll do it today (probably better to do it in the evening EST) 06:16:04 evening est is like night here, so i can't promise to be available for a very long time 06:16:39 sorry, gotta go 06:16:58 bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has joined #lisp 06:21:00 good morning 06:22:27 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:23:33 -!- xenoterracide [n=xenoterr@76.20.167.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:24:57 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:25:47 andrerav_ [i=andrerav@tvilling2.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 06:26:12 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-43-247.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:27:56 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:48 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:33:54 -!- seelenquell_ is now known as seelenquell 06:36:04 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 06:42:18 -!- Soulman [n=knute@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:46:42 dkcl [i=d97d49e3@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-584414ed86e1a607] has joined #lisp 06:46:56 slyrus___ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:57 -!- slyrus___ is now known as slyrus_ 06:48:03 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:28 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:15 -!- dkcl [i=d97d49e3@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-584414ed86e1a607] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 06:53:46 vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 06:58:59 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:07:08 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:07:46 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:07:46 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:17 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:11:51 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:12:24 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.80.242] has joined #lisp 07:13:12 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-156-132.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:12 all windows messed up in slime again ... x) 07:18:31 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 07:19:00 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:40 is there some other way to restore how things where before an exception? .. i used to tap the q key 07:24:13 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:26:30 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:26:49 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:29:03 -!- sabetts` is now known as sabetts 07:29:57 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 07:32:22 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:10 QV [n=viosys@cpe-24-175-17-39.elp.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:03 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:38:51 -!- spiderbyte [n=spiderby@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 07:38:59 spiderbyte [n=spiderby@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 07:39:12 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 07:42:56 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:44:04 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 07:46:35 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.228.26] has joined #lisp 07:48:35 (merge-pathnames "foo" "/bar/baz.lisp") gives me #p"/bar/foo.lisp" -- is there a way to specify a pathname that has NO type component, rather than an unspecified type? I'm trying to find something that will merge to #p"/bar/foo" 07:49:48 (make-pathname :name "foo" :type nil :version nil :defaults some-other-pathname) ; could be what you're looking for 07:49:52 "/bar/baz" does not work ? 07:50:34 the second argument I haven't really got control over 07:50:43 -!- spiderbyte is now known as macdaddy 07:51:51 antifuchs: thanks! I hadn't expected that to behave differently from (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :name "foo" :type nil) "/home/baz.lisp") 07:52:13 here's to having nil mean "please fill this when merging" (: 07:53:23 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 07:53:41 that must be the 'complicated defaulting behaviour' the spec talks about 07:54:17 it's DWIM for platforms our grandparents used (: 07:55:33 -!- JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:57:26 -!- macdaddy is now known as spiderbyte 07:58:24 Soon, "just use clojure" will become the standard answer to this kind of question. 07:59:26 (Not sure whether that answer is compatible with "just use cusp" though.) 07:59:53 oh wait, i can first make a name-less pathname, and then merge that 07:59:54 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 08:05:55 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 08:09:32 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:09:37 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:11:00 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 08:11:41 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 08:18:26 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:18:44 morning lispers 08:19:29 hi kiuma 08:20:46 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:57 this portion of the broadcast has been pre-recorded :) 08:28:49 -!- sunwukong [n=salvi@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has quit ["bye"] 08:31:48 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 08:32:34 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 08:33:13 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:38:03 morning 08:39:08 morning Xof 08:39:58 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit ["Untill I come back."] 08:40:20 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:48:34 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-76.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:49:40 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:51:12 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 08:51:12 -!- jgrant`` [n=user@dsl231-043-085.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:53:09 jgrant`` [n=user@dsl231-043-085.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:25 good morning 08:56:58 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:57:13 hidan [n=hidan@212.100.69.12] has joined #lisp 08:57:37 moin nikodemus 08:58:32 -!- FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:59:31 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["leaving"] 08:59:44 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 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has joined #lisp 10:18:01 turbo24prg [n=turbo24p@mail.turbolent.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:01 jsimonss [n=jesse@urda-140.teknologforeningen.fi] has joined #lisp 10:18:01 p8m [n=dmm@codezen.org] has joined #lisp 10:18:01 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-49-80.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:01 faheem [n=faheem@cpe-071-077-007-143.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:20 -!- tarbo is now known as Guest45791 10:18:20 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-66.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 10:19:01 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 10:19:33 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-18-194.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:21:25 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:21:53 does anybody have tried openpandora with sbcl ? 10:22:08 EvanR__ [n=chatzill@adsl-250-238-122.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:14 -!- EvanR__ is now known as EvanR 10:23:34 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:24:44 kiuma: how do you mean? 10:24:52 -!- hidan [n=hidan@212.100.69.12] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:25:03 -!- thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@unaffiliated/printk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:25:11 -!- bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:25:28 thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@facepunch.mobi] has joined #lisp 10:28:32 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:31:36 gz` [n=gz@209-6-158-10.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:31:54 -!- mrd- [n=mrd@c-24-147-145-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:32:06 mrd- [n=mrd@c-24-147-145-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:07 benny [n=benny@i577A1D3C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:32:21 -!- p8m [n=dmm@codezen.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:32:25 -!- sbok_ [n=kobs@you.cant.haxit.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:32:25 p8m [n=dmm@codezen.org] has joined #lisp 10:32:36 sbok [n=kobs@you.cant.haxit.org] has joined #lisp 10:33:50 bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has joined #lisp 10:34:57 -!- hans_ [n=H4ns@p57A0D15B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 10:35:46 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D15B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:37:56 -!- EvanR_ [n=chatzill@adsl-250-238-122.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [No route to host] 10:42:38 cmm http://openpandora.org/index.php 10:43:16 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:43:19 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 10:43:46 holycow [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:55 DanielRM [i=5c2b4207@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c5f3bf257962626a] has joined #lisp 10:44:50 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:44:51 MHOOO [n=nah@u-6-141.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:45:40 -!- Guest45791 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[n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 10:50:00 eirik__ [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 10:50:24 esden_ [n=esdentem@atradig126.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:50:28 jsimonss_ [n=jesse@urda-140.teknologforeningen.fi] has joined #lisp 10:50:47 jgracin [n=jgracin@89-172-60-194.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:51:08 mikesch [n=axel@static-87-79-66-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:51:22 -!- turbo24prg [n=turbo24p@mail.turbolent.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:22 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:23 -!- eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:23 -!- esden [n=esdentem@atradig126.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:23 -!- jsimonss [n=jesse@urda-140.teknologforeningen.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:23 -!- pok [n=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:52:34 -!- lde [n=lde@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:55:36 -!- qebab_ is now known as qebab 10:57:52 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:58:58 -!- Zhivago [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:58 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:58 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:58 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:30 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:05 kiuma: sbcl doesn't run on arm 11:02:18 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:02:19 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:02:23 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:02:58 -!- jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:03:38 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-207-63-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:03:55 pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 11:04:21 sigh 11:04:30 a pity 11:04:48 it could be my auto xmass gift 11:05:44 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 11:05:47 an arm port could of course be made :) 11:06:15 but probably not by christmas -- at least not unless nyef gets on the case :) 11:09:17 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:09:54 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-205-119-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:27 -!- pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:12:27 -!- p8m [n=dmm@codezen.org] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:12:27 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-49-80.austin.res.rr.com] has 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irc.freenode.net] 11:43:26 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:44:11 -!- eirik__ is now known as eirik 11:44:58 ramus` [n=ramus@75.34.7.77] has joined #lisp 11:45:38 pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 11:45:38 Guest93156 [n=martin@82.68.80.108] has joined #lisp 11:45:38 p8m [n=dmm@codezen.org] has joined #lisp 11:45:38 parodyoflanguage [n=klh@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:38 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:38 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 11:45:38 Guest44882 [n=Leonidas@chronon.pointtec.de] has joined #lisp 11:45:38 isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:45:38 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has joined #lisp 11:45:38 cky [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:45:38 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:45:38 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joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 11:51:52 aumontabe [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:52:03 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:52:03 -!- Guest93156 [n=martin@82.68.80.108] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:53:33 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:55:39 -!- Zhivago [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has quit ["leaving"] 11:56:16 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 11:56:33 -!- FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:56:59 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:57:02 -!- pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:58:00 dangit 11:58:10 anyone have a mirror of cl-alsa? download site is down. 12:00:20 pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 12:01:42 ugh. 12:01:46 The CC environment variable has not been set in SB-GROVEL. Since this variable should always be set during the SBCL build process, this might indicate an SBCL with a broken contrib installation. 12:02:24 hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 12:02:51 how do I set that? 12:04:01 export CC="some value" 12:04:47 -!- pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:04:47 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:04:47 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-49-80.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:04:47 -!- oof [n=keram@Macaw.cens.UCLA.EDU] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:04:47 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:04:47 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=klh@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:04:47 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 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12:31:08 isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:06 kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@84.14.121.138] has joined #lisp 12:32:09 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:33:24 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-6-171.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:34:59 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:46 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 12:35:58 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 12:37:20 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:37:46 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:31 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:39:06 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:39:08 how do I flush an output stream in CL? 12:39:26 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:39:41 clhs force-output 12:39:45 spacebat: force-output or finish-output, depending on whether you want to wait. 12:39:52 thanks 12:39:55 *michaelw* pokes specbot 12:40:14 I'm trying ext:run-program in ECL, but its deadlocking so I think a flush is in order 12:41:55 http://l1sp.org/cl/force-output has the docs! 12:42:04 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@u-6-141.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:42:25 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 12:42:25 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 12:42:37 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:42 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:10 ths_ [n=ths@p549AFFE5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:58 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc24.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:44:01 minion: memo for chandler: why no specbot? 12:44:01 Remembered. I'll tell chandler when he/she/it next speaks. 12:44:03 heya 12:44:11 doesn't CL have a flatten list function? 12:44:24 no 12:44:36 but all lisp college courses do! 12:44:41 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F6E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:42 haha, that seems strange 12:44:48 if I remember alexandria has one 12:44:58 *dlowe* hasn't ever needed to flatten a list in production code. 12:45:15 yeah it's for quickly hacking together a unit-test 12:45:36 to simplify the iteration 12:45:44 *sykopomp* thinks of flatten-list as the factorial example of macros. 12:45:50 not really needed, just strange that it doesn't have a flatten 12:46:24 yvdriess: well, there IS (apply #'concatenate 'list lists) 12:46:47 yvdriess: practically, the usual answer is that you should change whatever generated the nesting to generate a flat list 12:46:57 hm apply isn't exactly nice here 12:47:08 (otoh, that can be expensive if the way to do that is repeated APPENDing, so I can see a tree being a nice intermediate...) 12:47:13 if your implementation doesn't like huge argument lists 12:47:18 yes 12:47:39 what about reduce :) 12:48:03 sure, just make sure you :from-end t 12:48:25 why's that 12:48:37 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-8-113.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:48:56 because appending requires that you walk (and copy, unless destructive) the left-side list 12:49:07 yeah I used nconc :) 12:49:19 so if you use reduce to nconc n lists, it's O(n^2) 12:49:33 it's for unit testing, so I don't mind 12:49:51 ah yes 12:49:55 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:58 I see what you mean 12:50:08 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #lisp 12:51:04 pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 12:51:41 mtd_ [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:41 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 12:52:05 -!- mtd_ is now known as Guest13523 12:55:18 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:00:16 yvdriess: the fastest is probably to use an existing unit test framework :) 13:01:17 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:19 michaelw: using lisp-unit 13:05:14 -!- oudeis__ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-78-191.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:05:19 yvdriess_ [n=yvdriess@progmc49.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:05:20 minion: discard my memo 13:05:21 OK, I threw it out. 13:05:48 kpreid: hm. again? I don't know why it's failing to start, and debugging causes too many annyoing quits / joins to too many channels 13:06:02 chandler: I did a panacea and it didn't appear 13:06:25 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:39 yes, despite the fact that it does explicitly start specbot 13:06:51 I'm half wondering if freenode is doing some kind of connection throttling 13:07:38 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086130.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 13:08:08 if drewc is still planning on setting up a separate VPS for lisppaste & co, I'll split minion and specbot out of the same Lisp image as lisppaste itself, which could improve the situation. 13:08:38 minion: memo to drewc: remind me to talk to you about setting up a separate VPS for Lisppaste at some point. 13:08:38 Remembered. I'll tell drewc when he/she/it next speaks. 13:08:39 if freenode were doing throttling you'd think that lisppaste* would notice 13:08:43 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 13:08:47 Yes, that's why I'm confused. 13:09:23 I turned off the mute by default in an attempt to debug, but when specbot fails to start it doesn't make any noise at all. 13:11:10 -!- Guest448` is now known as Leonidas 13:15:40 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-111.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:18:20 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc24.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:19:15 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:31 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086130.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:21:15 florist [i=shreyas@dhruva.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:22:10 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:22:43 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc13.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:23:30 name 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joined #lisp 13:47:10 -!- sebastian__ [n=sebastia@p5B0B493E.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 13:47:45 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@abdallo.cs.unibo.it] has joined #lisp 13:48:54 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.228.67] has joined #lisp 13:51:29 blast 13:51:38 lisp-unit doesn't have = assert 13:51:47 -0 is not eql to 0 :) 13:51:59 equal sorry 13:52:29 nope-> (eql (complex 0.0d0 -0.0d0) (complex 0.0d0)) 13:52:32 nil 13:54:39 -!- hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:20 -!- boyscare1 is now known as boyscared 13:55:37 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc13.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 13:56:45 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@nblzone-240-27.nblnetworks.fi] has joined #lisp 13:59:21 jao` [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:55 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 14:01:36 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084024.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 14:01:47 -!- aumontabe is now known as abeaumont 14:02:35 borism 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[n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:39 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:09:42 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 14:10:00 -!- esden`away is now known as esden 14:13:00 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:13:19 nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:13:47 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@nblzone-240-27.nblnetworks.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:15:14 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-6-171.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:16:36 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2E93E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:41 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:19:30 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 14:25:05 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084024.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:25:42 -!- besiria` [n=user@ppp083212084208.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:58 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-121-2.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:01 bhyde [n=bhyde@static-71-243-120-39.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:37 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 14:30:57 -!- robot_jesus [n=csanders@hoovers-241.hoovers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:07 nikodemus_: i haven't gotten any duplicates from you today 14:34:13 nikodemus_: until i got a dupe of your dupe apology :( 14:34:13 I have. 14:36:37 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:36:49 kpreid: it depends on how you use it: (prog1 (first list-of-list) (reduce (lambda (r x) (last (nconc r x))) list-of-list)) is O(sum(length(l);l in list-of-list)) 14:37:42 -!- holycow [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 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[n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:53 -!- ehu [i=91dd3448@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2e09ce748f32ab1d] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:10:27 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:55 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 15:11:33 salex [n=user@c-98-196-228-130.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:35 Xach: did you get any mail from me in the "--script" thread yet? 15:12:20 cu tomorrow 15:12:23 Do any common-lisp.net admins lurk here? 15:12:25 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:13:28 kreuter: yeah, just did 15:13:32 Guest26197: what's up? 15:13:36 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084208.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 15:13:56 salex: hi! 15:14:09 I sent in a project request several days ago, but haven't gotten a reply. Perhaps it got lost .... 15:14:12 salex: another guy is using vecto to generate chord diagrams on the fly with vecto 15:14:29 *Xach* hates forgetting the start of his sentence by the time he is writing the end of it 15:14:35 *Xach* digs up URL 15:15:00 Xach: huh, didn't see that. Otoh, I want vector based... 15:15:09 but yeah, i'd like to see it 15:15:20 everything I found didn't do something I wanted. 15:15:40 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 15:17:30 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-156-132.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:17:49 -!- egn_ is now known as egn 15:18:21 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:25 Xach: which message did you receive? the one about banner printing, or the one about ASDF? 15:19:43 kreuter: both 15:20:06 okay. so it is probably sourceforge crappiness, rather than my ISP's MTA's crappiness. 15:21:01 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 15:21:05 nikodemus[_`]: note that clbuild doesn't load .sbclrc either, so --script users would have to write #!/path/to/clbuild lisp --script 15:21:44 (that's unless they edited .sbclrc in a clbuild-compatible way, but users clever enough to do that might as well dump a core file, I think) 15:22:14 I received nikodemus's reply to me once directly and then three times via lists.sourceforge.net, so I think SF is experiencing a substantial amount of crappiness right now. 15:23:15 Xach: i googled but haven't found the vecto one. Do you know how flexible it was? If I finish this up, maybe I'll add a vecto backend 15:24:08 salex: it was created by jeremy english, but apparently it's not running any more. http://www.jeremyenglish.org/lisp-stuff.html 15:24:27 salex: it wasn't especially advanced, but you might find it interesting anyway. 15:25:10 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084208.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25:10 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit [No route to host] 15:25:12 (i think you'd have to contact him to get it) 15:26:44 thanks. may be overlap in what we'd want to do with it.... 15:26:51 char and bit are the only two accessors for specialized but not necessarily simple vectors, right? 15:27:00 the online stuff I found wasn't very capable 15:27:49 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:29:01 hm. bit works on arrays other than vectors. 15:32:52 vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 15:34:23 -!- chandler is now known as CHANDLER 15:34:28 segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1CBDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:28 -!- CHANDLER is now known as chandler 15:34:29 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:43 -!- r00k [n=ben@216.93.247.56] has left #lisp 15:35:21 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E124.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:36:09 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbc8c1.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:37:00 DanielRM [i=51655cf9@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-36a894cef33dedab] has joined #lisp 15:37:48 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:38:11 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.200.179] has joined #lisp 15:38:49 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.200.179] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:39:03 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.200.179] has joined #lisp 15:39:54 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:09 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:41:02 xristos [n=xristos@93-97-209-110.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:41:39 lichtblau: oh, right. i suppose there are users who use clbuild to *run* lisp :) 15:42:05 except that only one argument is guaranteed to work on shebang lines 15:42:53 (i just append stuff to *central-registry* in .sbclrc) 15:43:50 nikodemus`: did you consider and reject my suggestion of making --userinit/--sysinit default to nil when --script is supplied, but letting the user override that on the command line? 15:44:21 chandler: i don't see the point, since only one argument works on shebang lines 15:44:32 oh. I didn't read what you just wrote, I guess 15:44:39 and also, I wasn't aware of that 15:44:57 on some systems you _can_ get away with multiple arguments, but it's not portable 15:45:03 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9BAE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:45:22 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:45:24 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:29 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17DCC6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:47 ok, horrible suggestion: --script doesn't load init files; --script/init does 15:46:21 creddy_ [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-8-113.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 15:46:32 I doubt you're allowed slashes 15:46:40 rsynnott: allowed by whom? 15:46:57 i use slashes in command line arguments rather a lot. 15:47:05 almost every time i use a file name, in fact. 15:47:10 jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 15:47:13 Indeed. 15:47:27 even with --script (and assuming library-location is solved) things still won't work with /usr/bin/env sbcl 15:49:22 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:35 george_ [n=george@189.107.132.9] has joined #lisp 15:52:28 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:53:37 -!- rpg_laptop [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:53:50 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:51 #!/usr/bin/env, i mean 15:53:51 rpg_laptop [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has joined #lisp 15:53:52 -!- creddy_ is now known as creddy 15:54:25 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:55:50 -!- jazen3 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:55:56 -!- jao` is now known as jao 15:57:27 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:13 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 16:02:49 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:03:25 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-99.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:32 yo gigamonkey 16:10:03 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-49-80.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:17 user__ [n=user@p549273BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:06 kreuter: When will you have time today? 16:14:36 tcr: how about in 45 minutes? 16:14:50 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:09 I'll try to be around then. 16:15:13 okay 16:15:18 if that's not good, when? 16:15:54 It should be fine. 16:16:01 *tcr* afk 16:16:49 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:17:38 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 16:18:11 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:07 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:22:59 -!- rickardg [n=user@egaws2272.stu.lu.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:51 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:20 -!- salex [n=user@c-98-196-228-130.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:24:23 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4751F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:40 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43EF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:27:05 slyrus___ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:07 -!- slyrus___ is now known as slyrus_ 16:29:59 -!- mikesch [n=axel@static-87-79-66-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:30:12 -!- lesceil [n=lesceil@gateway.penguincomputing.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:31:57 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:14 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:35:01 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 16:35:06 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:34 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D15B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:13 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:36:23 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:26 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:24 timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:47 -!- timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 16:40:31 Buganini [n=buganini@140.122.126.12] has joined #lisp 16:46:03 -!- DanielRM [i=51655cf9@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-36a894cef33dedab] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:49:14 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:07 some cliki .asd files do a lot of load-time work 16:50:14 i found it a little scary 16:50:31 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-66.kosnet.ru] has quit ["L0v3."] 16:51:26 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 16:52:44 Yo Xach. 16:53:24 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:54:32 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:54:36 Xach: some examples ? 16:54:40 xach, did you publish that scare graphvis file? 16:54:52 s/vis/viz/ 16:55:13 dcrawford: no, just the pdf, sorry. 16:55:27 dcrawford: as someone else said, generating one is not too tricky 16:55:40 fe[nl]ix: one of yours, if i remember rightly :) 16:55:45 the pdf? I see the lisp result file.. 16:56:04 xach.com/tmp/deps.pdf 16:56:12 might crunch your pdf viewer...certainly stresses evince 16:56:21 loads ok in Preview.app 16:57:08 I once used graphviz to make a dependency graph of the classes in our Java product and printed it as a big poster and put on the door to my office. It was mostly a mess but at the very middle of the graph was a class Magic containing the definitions of magic numbers. One of our more savvy investors walked by and looked at it and said, "Ah, I'm glad to see everything depends on magic." 16:58:34 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:24 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:36 a friend of mine did the same thing many years ago for red hat package dependencies 17:00:05 and one of debian's package managers even has it built in as a flag, iirc 17:01:20 Sometimes you can make the graph a bit more managable by forcing nodes into specific columns (or rows). 17:01:30 MHOOO [n=nah@u-6-110.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:01:43 Based on the direction you think the dependencies *ought* to flow. 17:01:54 hmm, maybe i'll mess around with that 17:02:04 ooh, looks like kghostview is multithreaded, it sure popped my processor load 17:02:24 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-6-170.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:03:17 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@static-71-243-120-39.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:05:22 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-240-156.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 17:06:12 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 17:07:39 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F6E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:07:50 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 17:08:59 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-84-44-241-87.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:09:57 Xach: for inter-component dependencies, cyclo works better than dot 17:10:07 (at least for the convoluted kind you get in mcclim) 17:10:58 lukego [n=lukegorr@208.49.99.251] has joined #lisp 17:11:05 dot seems to prefer laying out somewhat tree-like graphs 17:11:15 antifuchs: is that part of graphviz or totally separate? 17:11:20 it's part of graphviz 17:11:30 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 17:11:35 there are lots of non-dot graphviz tools that nobody knows about (: 17:11:49 but they're totally worth knowing. check out the man page, it lists them (: 17:12:02 i tried using circo but it crashed 17:12:06 i will try cyclo 17:12:09 erm. 17:12:13 I meant circo 17:12:20 it crashed? ouch. 17:12:51 on my laptop, yeah. 17:12:55 bus error, even. 17:13:00 nikodemus`: aroundp 17:13:35 kreuter: I'll be available in about 15min 17:13:41 just making coffee -- gimme a second 17:13:46 tcr: okay! (what do we have do discuss again?) 17:13:47 nikodemus`: sure. 17:14:03 at least it wasn't a bus that crashed into your laptop 17:15:04 ok 17:15:31 nikodemus`: I'm trying to figure out how strongly you feel about having script-mode load some initialization file. 17:16:17 i would love to see new tools to make it easier/more concise to do that manually (instead of merge-pathnames, user-homedir-pathname verbosity) 17:16:18 kreuter: my reader changes? 17:16:39 rpg__ [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has joined #lisp 17:16:47 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:16:53 (require :sb-script) => all manner of convenient magics 17:16:55 I think it'd be weird for every script I run to pull in all the same libraries. 17:17:43 not very. but i do think that if we load some, we should load both sysinit and userinit (and have a separate scriptinit seems nasty) -- and if we don't load initfiles something like asdfrc loaded by ASDF would IMO be needed 17:17:54 each should use at least the anaphora/cl-utilities/alexandria flavour of the month (: 17:17:55 i don't really get the fixation on asdf 17:18:07 s/have a/to have a/ 17:18:17 i don't think asdf should be a privileged participant in a --script interface. 17:18:27 Xach: it's not 17:18:36 ok, right. yeah, you mentioned, sorry. 17:18:55 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 17:18:56 gas [n=gashale@81-208-31-216.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:18:56 defsystem people can implement .sysdefrc if they want :P 17:19:07 so, two things about .asdfrc 17:19:11 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:19:15 ok 17:19:19 (1) first, would we be loading it only in "script mode"? 17:19:27 no, always 17:19:50 so all the *central-registry* gunk people keep in .sbclrc could be moved to .asdfrc 17:20:04 always-always, or always-except-during-SBCL-build? 17:20:09 nikodemus`: how about having a (setq #--script t) as the first line DTRT? (-; 17:20:09 um 17:20:24 (playing on "set -e" in bash) (: 17:20:41 erm, setf. tired. 17:20:45 if always-always, I think my argument against to ASDF's recently-removed load-preferences applies. 17:20:46 #--script ?! 17:20:52 joking, joking. 17:20:56 (half) 17:21:20 just sec, i'll clean up on thing and paste 17:21:25 okay 17:21:31 there's a second line of questioning 17:21:49 Are we discussing shell scripting? 17:21:57 tic: hard to say :) 17:22:31 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 17:22:33 *tic* continues listening. 17:24:09 nikodemus pasted "something like this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68109 17:24:10 -!- rpg_laptop [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:24:48 khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@151.204.138.236] has joined #lisp 17:25:13 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:16 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-99.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:18 nikodemus`: in general i don't want to intermingle the configuration of my interactive development environment and the configuration of scripts. 17:25:18 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 17:25:25 except #-sbcl-hooks-require does not do quite the right thing 17:25:43 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 17:25:50 the second question is whether there's really much more to configuring ASDF than setting *CENTRAL-REGISTRY*, in which case, do we really want a second Lisp file that can do anything, or some more specific mechanism. 17:26:11 e.g., couldn't we consult an environment variable to initialize *CENTRAL-REGISTRY*. 17:26:14 kreuter: there is -- automagic fasl recompilation, for exmaple 17:26:15 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 17:26:25 Xach: so how would you make your scripts find eg. cl-ppcre? 17:26:50 *nikodemus`* hates environment variables for that sort of thing 17:27:25 nikodemus`,pjb: how does clisp do it? 17:27:30 they're annoyingly ephemeral, making debugging harder 17:27:48 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:28:06 nikodemus`: I don't know. 17:28:35 nikodemus`: right, but for this purpose, all we have to do is print *central-registry* after we fail to find a system. 17:29:08 hi 17:29:17 and I think it's less liable to evolve into a mess than a whole second initfile (well, actually a third and fourth). 17:29:41 clisp doesn't do anything with respect to asdf. 17:30:02 kreuter: fair enough. what about recompilation? 17:30:20 I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of automatic recompilation. 17:30:24 I prefer to use clisp to write the script finding the asd files and collect their directories in asdf:*central-registry*. Why would you want to do that with an inferior shell script to pass it thru an environment variable? 17:30:42 it might work, or it might be a surprising pain in the neck for users. 17:31:03 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:24 I have a list with a shape like ((word1 (sub-word2 weight) (sub-word3 weight)) (word4 (sub-word5 weight))), and I need a function that returns only the sub-words/weights pairs, how can I do it? 17:31:25 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 17:31:26 Basically: (setf asdf:*central-registry* (append (remove-duplicates (mapcar (function keep-only-directory) (directory "/some/root/**/*.asd"))) asdf:*central-registry*)) 17:31:37 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:08 (so far I have (cdr (car (remove-if-not (lambda (x) (eq word (car x))) list)), but I guess there's something better) 17:32:15 kreuter: hence i think it's something we should allow users to patch in .asdfrc (though for sb-ext:invalid-fasl it is really quite robust) 17:32:35 -!- florist [n=florist@unaffiliated/florist] has quit ["Changing server"] 17:32:52 gigamonkey pasted "A bit of asdf foo I use" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68110 17:33:02 florist [n=florist@dhruva.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 17:33:07 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 17:33:13 Tordek: (defun subwords (word-info) ...) (mapcan (compose copy-list subwords) word-info-list) 17:33:17 environment variables are also a minor pain on windows -- not that i care very much, but i am not sure we should make things harder for windows users then they already are... 17:33:33 I've mentioned that bit of code before but it provides--I find--a fairly easy way to control what libraries I'm using from where. 17:34:08 I can have a top-level .asdf file that REGISTERs a single directory which in turns REGISTERs a whole bunch of libraries. 17:34:18 so, I'm of the (probably unpopular) opinion that loading libraries shouldn't need to go through ASDF or any other full-blown build machinery. 17:34:48 For Xach's scenario, I'd have two different top-level .asdf files, one for scripts and another for my normal environment. 17:34:49 pjb: maybe I didn't express properly; I don't need the whole list of subwords; I'm trying to make the subword function 17:35:04 if there's a better way than the cdr-car-remove-if-not 17:35:11 Tordek: you've presented a list of word-info... 17:35:50 So if you only have word-info = (word1 (sub-word-1 weight-1) (sub-word-2 weight-2) ...) how would you defined subwords? 17:36:07 let's scale this back a bit. do we want to load userinit & sysinit under --script? aside from libraries, is there anyone who actually wants that? 17:36:21 as I put it above: (defun subwords (word) (cdr (car (remove-if-not ...)))) 17:36:30 I don't. 17:36:32 nikodemus`: i don't think so. 17:36:54 Tordek: try: (let ((word-info '(word1 (sub-word-1 weight-1) (sub-word-2 weight-2)))) (rest word-info)) 17:37:01 ok. so let's say for the sake of argument we don't process them -- taking that as a given for now 17:37:21 so I'm asking if (and surely) there is a function that returns the first match, instead of ussinf (car (remove-if-not)) 17:37:22 we should still process --eval and --load options, etc, if they exist, yes? 17:37:34 Tordek: what match? 17:37:58 nikodemus`: that sounds good to me. but you mentioned a problem with OS support for that, right? 17:37:59 You asked for a function that returns only the sub-words/weights pairs. 17:38:08 Tordek: how about FIND-IF 17:38:15 I have no opinion on that. the script contents can do any of that, and it might not work right for shbang-lines, right? 17:38:17 eg: (find 'word1 word-list) => (word1 (subword2 weight) (subword3 weight)) 17:38:21 Xach: yeah, you can't really use them with a shebang line 17:38:39 Tordek: Don't mix two things in a single function. 17:38:46 but if you for some reason run with --script outside a shebang line, they're fine 17:39:07 (defun find-word-info-for-word (word) ...) (defun subwords (word-info) ...) (subwords (find-word-info-for-word 'word1)) 17:39:31 similarly, if a --userinit or --sysinit is explictly given, we should process it even under --script, yes? 17:39:37 fair enough 17:39:38 thanks 17:39:49 Tordek: also, you'll see you can build your program much more easily if you can express precisely and completely what you want, Don't miss half of the problem statement. 17:39:57 nikodemus`: seems ok to me. 17:40:17 also, re: find-word-info-for-word; how should I handle word-list? 17:40:19 I also have no opinion on that. 17:40:26 ok. and i have not heard any objections to implicit --noinform and --disable-debugger 17:40:31 Tordek: good. You can use FIND 17:40:37 globals are bad, so pass it as parameter every time? 17:40:54 nikodemus`: you're hitting all the good points of your plan :) 17:41:07 we don't disagree about the things we agree about, after all. 17:41:10 just making sure which bits we agree on :) 17:41:18 Tordek: if it tends to stay the same, you might use a closure 17:41:19 nikodemus`: i'm actually not especially fond of the default handling of --disable-debugger, but that's a separate issue 17:41:21 Tordek: question of style, but yes, you can pass the word-info-list. 17:41:26 -!- Riastrad1 is now known as Riastradh 17:41:28 so i think the semantics or --script are pretty much settled (including exit after the file has been loaded) 17:41:30 okay, I stand corrected. 17:41:33 nikodemus`: (it usually scrolls way the hell off my screen) 17:41:46 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:41:48 (defun word (word-info) ...) (defun find-word-info-for-word (word word-info-list) (find word word-info-list :key (function word))) 17:42:16 pjb: yeah, I'm asking if there's some somewhat agreed-upon way to handle it 17:42:25 (as a side point, it might be that the disable-debugger function should be implemented differently, since you can circumvent it without calling enable-debugger, by assigning *debugger-hook*.) 17:42:40 Xach: you'd want a shorter or no backtrace? (but yeah, that's a separate issue) 17:42:58 Tordek: well, if your word-info-list is a global resource, using a global variable would be good. If it is relative to some changing context, then it is better to pass it where you need it. 17:43:15 nikodemus`: yeah. as kreuter mentioned i usually tweak *invoke-debugger-hook* in situations where i get really annoyed. 17:43:25 and Hun: I'm making a silly markov-chain-based random phrase generator, so the list is updated sometimes, but only by a single function 17:43:28 kreuter: good point 17:43:29 that is, i want what --disable-debugger sort-of does, but less chatty 17:43:49 Tordek: For example, you can do (defun find-word-info-for-word (word &optional (*word-info-list* *word-info-list*)) ...) so you can override the global word-info-list when needed. 17:43:52 Tordek: then you can have the find-function and the update-function close over something like word-list 17:43:55 at any rate, the way --script should work seems to be pretty clear 17:44:13 (let ((word-list '(initial-stuff))) (defun foo ()...) (defun bar () ...)) 17:44:31 nikodemus`: i'm very glad you kicked off the discussion! i hope this happens soon, one way or another. 17:44:57 *Xach* also hopes his embedded-core runtime-saving options concept gets in somehow :) 17:45:04 hmm 17:45:13 interesting, thanks Hun and pjb 17:45:16 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:45:17 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:40 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:30 gigamonkey: i'm a little sad you didn't post that in your blog in response to my call for little things that make your life easier :) 17:46:32 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.228.1] has joined #lisp 17:46:37 grrrr. spec says consp and listp return generalized boolean, so expected the list to come out the other side -- got t instead :( 17:47:03 dcrawford: well half the (logical) time you'll get /a/ list out of it. ;) 17:47:03 regarding "how to find libraries". am i the only one who wants (require :asdf) (require :random-library) to work under --script, and wants to have an :around method on load-op to recompile invalid fasls? 17:47:12 dcrawford: depends on the implementation. And you could get :true or (happy birthday) for true... 17:47:33 -!- bpr [n=user@cpe-72-226-72-222.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:47:37 well I know t is valid for generalized, but was a fun surprise :( 17:48:04 nikodemus`: gee, when you put it like that, I can't disagree with you without say "I want it not to work". 17:48:11 :P 17:48:15 I want it not to work! 17:48:23 thanks! 17:48:24 am on ccl 10668 17:48:27 sorry for the passive aggressive phrasing 17:48:33 schasi [n=schasi@p54A26B09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:49 s'cool. I've gotten used to it. 17:48:51 :) 17:49:09 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:15 so, I wouldn't object if --script implicitly required asdf. 17:49:16 you can kick me when i do it -- i don't really like doing it *accidentally* 17:49:33 I would object. 17:49:38 me too 17:49:40 okay. 17:49:40 dcrawford: same on sbcl, even with evil optimising 17:49:47 (I wouldn't object if sbcl fasl loading was a lot faster...) 17:49:54 ah 17:49:59 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:50:14 Does SBCL support concatenated fasls? 17:50:14 I am in a "pay for what you use" frame of mind. 17:50:20 gigamonkey: it does. 17:50:21 yes 17:50:33 cool. 17:50:36 hm. 17:51:14 *gigamonkey* wonders about whether supporting gziped concatenated fasls would be cool or just stupid. 17:51:17 (find word *db* :key #'car) <-- so much prettier :P 17:51:33 ISTM there are two separate issues: (1) how to initialize *central-registry* and (2) whether to do automatic recompilation. 17:51:42 right? 17:51:45 yes 17:51:55 there might be others, but those for certain 17:52:11 Tordek: not really. It will become pretty ugly when you db will grow so much you need a hashtable or some other database. Better encapsulate it in a find-word-from-word-list abstraction. 17:52:12 faslz .. the new lisp 17:52:27 s/when you/when your word list/ 17:52:37 pjb: yeah, it is---that's the body of the function now 17:52:38 kreuter: I'm here. 17:52:44 nikodemus`: Got some time, too? 17:52:48 though i would phrase (2) how to allow users to do automagic recompilation 17:52:48 Tordek: ok :-) 17:52:58 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:52:59 tcr: i'm already spending a bit too much on this... 17:53:02 gigamonkey: would it gain that much? 17:53:02 i'm not _that_ noobish ;P 17:53:03 pjb: maybe fazl 17:53:23 nikodemus`: With "on this", you're talking about irc, or the subject? 17:53:26 but i can listen -- thinking and responding not guaranteed :) 17:53:31 then there's ccl lx64fzl maybe 17:53:32 subject 17:53:38 salex: dunno. I was just envisioning having a big concatenated fasl of all the libraries I need for some script. And then another one, and another. 17:53:44 nikodemus`: No, I want to talk about my reader changes. 17:53:44 dcrawford: haha 17:53:52 gigamonkey: ah, gotcha 17:53:55 my concern about automatic recompilation is that there's no particular reason to suppose that an arbitrary SBCL version in some random deployment environment can successfully rebuild things. 17:53:57 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:00 I want them separate to be sure about what I'm loading but they'd be a bit big. 17:54:22 kreuter: right. but that does't help you automatic or otherwise. you're sol 17:54:41 so in the fairly common case, automagical doesn't suck 17:55:22 I'd rather we just bail out with an error. 17:55:31 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 17:55:38 it would suck to have the recompilation side-effects getting injected into your pipeline at unexpected times. 17:55:40 at least in a batch script mode. 17:56:07 oh wait, we're talking batch mode right? nm. i forgot that detail 17:56:21 *Xach* is a happy automagic recompilation user otherwise 17:56:24 I mean, does any other language run the equivalent of make as the failover for load errors? 17:56:25 kreuter: quite. it's the right thing for sbcl. but it's the wrong thing for my hackish script just after i've updated sbcl -- which i do all the time, no surprise 17:56:46 so i don't think it should be cooked into sbcl 17:57:03 i suspect most of us have a hackish script like that 17:57:04 kreuter, lisp = dwim dammit 17:57:32 pozic [n=Pozic@unaffiliated/pozic] has joined #lisp 17:57:46 dcrawford: well I don't normally mean for hello-world-that-uses-some-library.lisp to spend ten minutes rebuilding things. 17:57:56 I think I'd rather it just fail. 17:58:20 say hey, I'd fail. should I fix myself? 17:58:21 you still have to spend those 10 minutes rebuilding things 17:58:25 I think recompiling should be easy and optional. 17:58:33 conditions ftw! 17:58:44 Also, nobody liked my let-the-initfiles-decide-about-script-loading idea? 17:58:54 plus a shell var for autofix=t 17:59:16 shell/init etc 17:59:23 the pathological case would be when you have two versions of SBCL running scrips under cron, and each time a script one got run, all the libraries would get recompiled. 17:59:34 kreuter: furthermore, if you have (require :foo) pulling stuff in via asdf, it may still recompile because sources have been updated -- so fighting extra hard against recompilation for scripts seems pretty pointless to me 17:59:54 that's where you have versioned libraries, esp for things like running py2.4 and py2.5 etc 17:59:54 if you want a static and stable app, dump a core with all the dependencies 18:00:22 kreuter: the nice way to do that is with versioning 18:00:27 so, what's wrong with eval ing by default? 18:00:27 then you only build twice 18:00:34 ^what we said :P 18:00:35 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:00:36 *with the interpreter. 18:01:01 dv____ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:01:05 dcrawford: are python `object' files compatible between minor versions? 18:01:13 pkhuong: yes 18:01:20 when I have pairs, such as in (subword weight), is there any compelling reason to use (subword . weight)? 18:01:29 kpreid: i think we voted against initfiles being loaded under --script 18:01:41 pkhuong: they're compatible across all 2.5.* for example 18:01:43 that's what I thought. Not as nice for sbcl. 18:01:44 Tordek, with the second you could use alist stuff 18:02:01 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:20 and with the first plist stuff 18:02:22 sure, there are workarounds and asdf extensions that can solve the problem, but if we're talking about taking our current ASDF and having it always recompile things when LOAD fails, I think that's a mistake for scripting purposes. 18:02:28 also, the first one needs slightly more ram 18:02:38 ok, so it seems that people have wildly different use-cases for --script, where library locations and recompilation stuff have different requirements 18:02:46 kreuter: python does that 18:02:55 nikodemus`, and make it all work! :P 18:03:00 and fast and easy 18:03:52 kreuter: i was't suggesting that, really. i think that there should be a way for people to get the behaviour their use-case needs without jumping though hoops 18:04:39 jump jump ... jmp jpz jnz 18:04:49 i think failing hard and fast is a great default 18:04:58 it seems to me that if the fasl is invalid, it should be treated as if it didn't exist 18:05:03 djn.f #0, <-10 18:05:06 and so if there's a .lisp also. load that 18:05:14 nikodemus`: how about a variable in ASDF? 18:05:23 kreuter: where would i set that? 18:05:36 in an initialization file, maybe? :P 18:05:46 see, that's your trouble, since I'm never going to turn it on. :) 18:05:57 hah 18:06:00 hum 18:06:35 nikodemus`: actually, that's a thing to think about. would *all* scripts always want the same behavior here? 18:06:52 Tordek: using one cons to hold a 'pair' makes a little more sense than using two, IMO. 18:06:53 drewc, memo from chandler: remind me to talk to you about setting up a separate VPS for Lisppaste at some point. 18:07:30 chandler: do we want a separate VPS fo lisspaste? I doubled the RAM for cl-net mostly specifically for lisspaste (And cliki.net). 18:07:48 foom: the more I think about your suggestion, the more I like it. incompatible change for SBCL, though. 18:07:50 my actual position on the matter is this: it ought to be possible for 'scripts' to make use of asdf systems the user has installed. how this is accomplished I don't much care. 18:08:01 Tordek: it doesn't matter: you should use abstractions (defun weight (item) (... item)) (defun subword (item) (... item)) We don't care what you put in ... 18:08:05 -!- user__ [n=user@p549273BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:08:37 user___ [n=user@p549273BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:56 foom: in fact, my .sbclrc has a function called LOAD* that does just that. 18:08:58 pjb: the voice of reason! :) 18:08:58 hrmn. looking on docs to build ccl as the lisp in a clbuild instance. anybody have an URL? 18:09:12 kreuter: between if* and defclass*? ;) 18:09:19 pkhuong: nah. 18:09:45 ./clbuild compile-implementation ccl ? 18:10:07 pkhuong: the thing is, loading the source file instead of the fasl only works when you know that the author of the source file isn't doing anything sneaky. 18:10:16 it wants $CCL to be set to something, but it's unclear what. 18:10:17 hans__ [n=H4ns@p57A0D15B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:18 you'll probably need a valid lisp (and maybe lisp (maybe ccl)) beforehand too 18:10:32 i have a valid sbcl on the path. 18:10:35 -!- hans__ is now known as H4nsX 18:10:48 probably an existing binary of ccl, it might only be selfcompiling - not on sbcl 18:11:04 sbcl is more flexible than some lisps wrt that 18:11:30 silenius [n=jl@e178012187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:11:32 Fade: yes, ccl can only be built on ccl 18:11:37 it's the nasty sort of self-hosting 18:11:43 ahh. okay. 18:11:45 bulbous [n=bulbous@c-67-177-39-155.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:01 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:12:04 so... I am trying to spawn a command from elisp, running it from a specific directory. (shell-command-to-string "pwd") works fine, but regardless of the value of the variable: default-directory, it always runs it in the same place (my home directory) 18:12:11 anyone know of a command that you can call that allows you to specify the directory? 18:12:23 it's the sort of thing that I'm sure must be easy to do, but I've been messing around with it for about an hour and haven't figured out how 18:12:28 bulbous: you'll probably want to ask over in #emacs. 18:12:33 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:12:41 This channel is about Common Lisp. 18:13:14 cool thanks giga -- someone referred me here, couldn't find an elisp channel, didn't think about just straight emacs, thought perhaps this channel covered elisp as well 18:13:22 tcr: can you remind me again how to pull from a public git repo? 18:15:33 bulbous: i think #emacs is the place for elisp questions 18:15:40 oops, sorry for the redundancy 18:15:55 kreuter: i different scripts may well have different needs, yeah 18:16:12 -!- bulbous [n=bulbous@c-67-177-39-155.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:16:35 nikodemus`: in other inquiries, should I commit the change to move the banner printing into Lisp? and should I add a --noinform option to the toplevel, too? 18:16:57 i don't object to the first 18:17:01 okay 18:17:36 as the the second, i'm thinking maybe we should relax the split between runtime and toplevel options 18:18:01 dunno exactly how, or what the semantics should be, though 18:18:02 hm. I seem to have a read-macro that parses "relax" into "lots of hairy code, on both sides". 18:18:16 autoreload and noreload could be options too 18:18:19 it's not that hairy 18:18:31 the runtime could just remove the options that it parses out 18:18:36 and pass the rest to the toplevel 18:18:41 it already does. 18:18:53 but, it currently stops when it sees one it doesn't recognize 18:19:06 Xach: but it does so in a pretty simple way, just stopping when it sees -end or something that isn't a runtime option. 18:19:12 dah, what foom said. 18:19:14 and they should share a common --end-sbcl-options 18:19:15 kreuter: I'm not git expert, I'd try git clone 18:19:20 buh. still having trouble building sbcl from clbuild on OS X/ppc32, even with garth's patch from september 9th. 18:19:22 something like that, yes 18:19:29 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:37 nikodemus`: did --script imply --end-toplevel-options in your patch? 18:19:44 nope 18:19:55 has anybody else fixed this? I clearly don't know enough about the osx toolchain. :P 18:20:03 it ought to, so that #! scripts work right 18:20:15 Fade: that's the error? 18:20:20 foom? 18:20:56 http://paste.lisp.org/display/65293 18:20:57 s/that's/what's/ 18:21:14 nikodemus`: with #!/usr/bin/sbcl --script at the top of a file, that script should get all the command-line arguments no matter what they are 18:21:21 but what if you want to do #!/usr/bin/sbcl --script --sbcl-option .... (plus script takes more sbcl options from cmd) 18:21:27 dcrawford: you can't 18:21:34 dcrawford: it's literally impossible 18:21:50 -!- gas [n=gashale@81-208-31-216.ip.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 18:21:51 yikes i'd forgotten how long sbcl's run-tests.sh take on an old G4 18:22:01 #! can only take a single argument 18:22:10 (nikodemus) 18:22:14 ...except on platforms where it takes more... 18:22:15 ? I thought it did take more 18:22:29 ah, it does 18:22:33 on one of the BSDs, on certain versions, it can 18:22:39 not on linux. iirc linux treats the whole end of line as a single argument 18:22:46 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:22:54 yeah, not something that's consistent 18:23:06 so, like I said, it can only take a single argument. :) 18:23:07 so your example would have "--script --sbcl-option" as argv[1] 18:23:27 seems fine for me, then sbcl would just have to parse that 18:23:33 except on those platforms where --sbcl-option would just get dropped... 18:23:36 just be able to split argv options 18:23:48 lalala! can't hear you! 18:23:58 nikodemus`: this is the patch I was trying http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/11816 18:24:04 if you want to do more, use #!/bin/sh 18:24:26 then you can put whatever arguments you like in 18:24:30 ah does nikodemus` not want to have split-on-space in his arg parser :) 18:24:32 Fade: sorry, i don't have a sufficiently new ppc to test this 18:24:42 -!- dv____ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Gone"] 18:24:46 :( 18:24:49 would a core not be a reasonable option, rather than all this #! stuff? 18:24:54 rsynnott: no 18:24:56 (executable core) 18:25:05 your best bet is to roll up your sleeves, and dig into docs and code 18:25:09 i'm willing to help work through it.. but i really don't know a lot about the sbcl build process. 18:25:16 rsynnott: six of one, half a dozen of the other. 18:25:25 '[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ 18:25:35 fuck sorry .. ferret. 18:25:47 (drewc begins work on the hairiest arc anaphoric lambda ever) 18:26:02 i was thinking clojure, but yeah :) 18:26:26 ferret? 18:26:26 "that's one hell of a desctructuring! 18:26:27 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:26:33 as in the weasel-like thing? 18:26:38 rsynnott: that's the guy. 18:27:05 i have three of the little stink-monkeys. 18:27:11 you need that anti-cat-on-keyboard software (assuming that ferrets have a similar jumping on keyboards pattern) 18:27:22 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46D97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:25 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbb03e.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 18:27:39 my cat, rather amazingly, once managed to reboot a machine on me 18:27:43 then you can't do fist-pound of doom comments! 18:27:46 Fade: at the point where the build fails, edit src/runtime/globals.h, cd src/runtime, run make, repeat till gcc likes the code (you can just play with the first line that it complains about) 18:27:55 that's the thing .. they don't :) the ferrets seem to find one key and stand on it... it' 18:27:55 jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:15 that's the thing .. they don't :) the ferrets seem to find one key and stand on it... 18:28:25 lalala I'm relaxing on your keyboard ... on the paste key :) 18:28:32 aha! the sourceforge ferret has been bedeviling nikodemus 18:28:33 once you figure out the new syntax you can worry about the next step 18:28:40 (and the ferret proves him wrong by pressing up AND enter) 18:28:40 so i often come back to a screen full of gnome-help-center or screenshots. 18:28:52 xhanjian [n=Jan@218.109.78.223] has joined #lisp 18:29:04 ya ... he's a tricky little guy. 18:29:15 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:29:21 yet another reason why I always lock my screen when away 18:29:25 *rsynnott* wants one of those 'welcome datacomp' keyboards 18:29:46 a fingerprint scanner in every key? 18:29:47 um, how do you compute the git:// URL from a repository's web interface? 18:29:48 foom: back to shebang lines. i think i still missed the point. what are the arguments that should be ignored with --script, and where would they come from? 18:30:07 nikodemus`: thanks for the pointer. I'll see how it goes. 18:30:21 an old third-party apple keyboard would occasionally output 'WELCOME DATACOMP' for no obvious reason. It has actually turned up in a few books 18:30:21 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A26B09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:30:33 nikodemus`, was it because he was only thinking of systems that took one #! arg? 18:30:54 kreuter: i don't think there's a robust way 18:30:59 :( 18:31:00 kreuter: you can't. they're unrelated 18:31:07 kij [n=user@0x50a10237.bynxx12.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:31:07 kreuter: do you have a specific git host in mind? 18:31:23 http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/tcr.git 18:31:32 the web interface tends to have a git:// url somewhere you can copy & paste it from 18:31:40 repo.or.cz has a predictable relationship, iirc. 18:31:46 like git://repo.or.cz/sbcl/tcr.git 18:31:51 git://sbcl.boinkor.net/sbcl/tcr.git 18:31:58 oops 18:32:02 fe[nl]ix: boinkor? 18:32:13 I copied the wrong thing 18:32:19 it's what nikodemus` said :) 18:32:41 okay, thanks 18:32:59 (the url is on the web-page, next to "Mirror URL") 18:33:19 FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:38 oh, I was looking at one of the trees. 18:33:43 that makes vastly more sense. thanks. 18:33:57 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 18:36:16 gnus 18:40:09 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4751F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:39 drewc: welcome to usenet! 18:40:51 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:41:07 -!- aiur [n=Jan@218.109.80.242] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:50 Xach: i think i've decided to frequent c.l.l again. :) 18:42:30 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 18:42:44 tcr: somehow, I hoped you wouldn't need to change read-token. :( 18:42:44 the world's last functioning USENET group! 18:42:52 ah, now i understand what foom ment 18:42:57 *kreuter* pokes out eye, so that only half as much ugly gets in. 18:43:03 he's right, as ususla 18:43:10 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:43:50 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-acd72b0351f6d91f] has joined #lisp 18:44:44 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbc8c1.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:26 --script needs to imply --end-toplevel-options so that when you have a #!/usr/local/bin/sbcl --script thingie, and you run it as "foo --eval '(nuke)'" the --eval (nuke) ends up in *posix-argv*, instead of being processed by sbcl 18:47:03 you know, the patch I posted did all that :p 18:47:06 and when you need to pass in sbcl options in addition to script (on systems where you can), just put them before --script? 18:47:12 drewc: Are you a planet lisp admin? 18:47:20 Guest26197: I am the planet lisp admin. 18:47:22 Sorry ... common-lisp.net admin? 18:47:31 Guest13523: T 18:47:36 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:47:50 could you have it imply that as long as --end-toplevel-options isn't also explicitly found? 18:47:56 nikodemus`: the unix script patch I sent in long ago did that :( 18:47:59 I sent in a request for a new project ... and I haven't heard back yet. 18:47:59 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:48:21 dcrawford: no, because what if the script or the thing it does gives meaning to --end-toplevel-options? 18:48:56 dcrawford: if you want to do something strange, run sbcl --whatever --script instead of --whatever 18:50:05 bah, it's just that everything to #!/usr/bin/sh seems to take more than one #! option I think 18:50:30 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:51:09 Guest26197: I see no emails from "Guest26197", can you be a little more specific? 18:53:35 The email is from Robert Brown. 18:54:01 that was completely obvious :P 18:54:12 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 18:54:18 don't you have your nifty reverse-hash-functions ready? tsts 18:54:43 tcr: I think I'd like the changes to the reader/package conditions to be a separate change than the cleanup stuff in tcr-reader-hacking. 18:55:29 *user___* would award the designers of LOOP (1$ full price) 18:55:55 ahm 1 million of course 18:56:15 ooh, reverse-hash-functions .. was about to have to write out that myself in a minute or two myself :P 18:57:04 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:38 nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:57:48 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:58:46 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:01:52 kpreid: actually i tried to find it, but my local sbcl-devel archives didn't go back far enough 19:02:20 kpreid: if you still have it around, feel free to resend 19:03:46 kpreid pasted "old sbcl --load-script patch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68113 19:03:53 ta 19:04:54 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 19:05:38 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:05:38 for all that I'm grumbling at the moment about reinventing a wheel (slightly rounder, thoug), I'm pleased that a lot of people are discussing it and want it 19:05:46 benny` [n=benny@i577A15E3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:51 vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 19:06:05 ok. your C side handling is nicer then mine 19:06:10 TAKEN 19:06:29 but i'm not too wild about hacking CL:LOAD 19:06:44 drewc: Perhaps my email was lost in recent common-lisp.net disk fullness? 19:06:52 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:33 drewc: oh, I guess I didn't realize that the clnet's memory had been increased. 19:07:52 drewc: the other problem I notice with clnet is that there are a *lot* of disk-heavy cron jobs that run on the host, and slow other activity to a crawl 19:08:06 (since you can just (with-open-file (f pathname) (let ((start (read-line f))) (when (mismatch "#!" start :end2 (min (lenght start) 2)) (file-position f :start)) (load f)) ; or something like that 19:08:08 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:18 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 19:09:03 *Fade* partially succeeds 19:09:11 Fade pasted "new failure!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68114 19:09:54 -!- pozic [n=Pozic@unaffiliated/pozic] has quit ["leaving"] 19:10:16 does the build require I explicitly disable threading in customize features? 19:11:25 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AFFE5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:13:05 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1D3C.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:13:15 *Fade* gives it a shot 19:14:51 -!- xhanjian [n=Jan@218.109.78.223] has quit [Client Quit] 19:15:06 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:46 -!- nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["going home"] 19:16:55 kreuter: I changed read-token in so far as making it throw distinguished conditions; I actually need that in an application 19:17:25 tcr: right. I like that, but I'd like to do it a little differently. 19:17:36 um, give me a couple minutes. 19:18:52 kreuter: re: different changes; I think git lets you cherry pick what you want, and think should be together 19:22:10 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@208.49.99.251] has quit [] 19:22:28 ths [n=ths@X6ac4.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 19:22:57 hidan [n=hidan@212.100.69.12] has joined #lisp 19:23:08 I can't find it, but I'm pretty sure I posted a patch once to split the reader-package-errors there into 3 subclasses: something like, no-such-package, symbol-not-found, symbol-not-external, with some restarts around each. 19:24:11 for what you're calling package-not-found-error, I think a use-value restart that return-from'd read-token would be nice. 19:24:37 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:24:58 Yeah, I wanted to come up with some generalized way to signal errors with such restarts established 19:25:26 but I wasn't sure how much that was wanted, so I kept my hands from it until my reader changes were incorporated 19:25:35 okay. 19:26:00 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 19:26:02 something like (fancy-error (:use-value "Yadda") (:continue "Frob it anyway.") ...) 19:27:23 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 19:27:25 um 19:27:55 for the package-not-found case, I can't think of what CONTINUE would mean. the reader has to return something. 19:28:17 minion: memo for nikodemus: I'm not particularly wild about the cl:load hacking either. Does passing in a stream preserve source location info, though? 19:28:17 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 19:28:45 anyway, I think my thinking is "don't prematurely generalize" :) 19:28:57 lispm [n=joswig@e177125142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:29:01 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:29:28 It's a different can of worms, and as I said I kept my fingers from it. I surely didn't want to make the impression that this was related to my other changes. 19:29:30 -!- Guest13523 [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit ["leaving"] 19:30:37 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:22 ok 19:31:29 kreuter: the problem is that the package cleaning depends on the conditions as I've named them, if you change that part, that'll most likely create conflicts. 19:31:33 kpreid: the source-locations stuff does work on streams now. 19:31:39 but does that matter for scripts? 19:32:26 tcr: isn't the package cleaning a separate branch? 19:32:27 grigorij [n=user@0x5552ef45.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 19:33:03 kreuter: Yes it is, but it moved the conditions from condition.lisp to reader.lisp; so it depends on them in a source-line way, not a conceptual way 19:33:26 I missed the previous discussion, and what --script does exactly; is it now possible to compile stuff from a stream? 19:33:31 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:33:55 tcr: not that I'm aware of. 19:34:52 well, it wasn't entirely the threading. 19:35:05 is gencgc not supported on ppc32 systems? 19:35:20 that would be interesting though -- just piping the stream to the standard-input repl, compiled and ran 19:35:40 fade annotated #68114 with "it wasn't (entirely) threading" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68114#1 19:35:44 minion: memo for nikodemus: thought: if we don't expose #! handling as a LOAD option, we should expose it as a separate function so that one can load a script when one already has an image up (say for debugging) 19:35:44 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 19:35:55 Fade: gengc is supported on ppc, but threading is not supported. 19:36:30 lukego [n=lukegorr@208.49.99.251] has joined #lisp 19:36:31 i suppressed threading explicitly in customize-target-features.lisp 19:36:39 but I get that build failure. 19:36:49 dcrawford: it would be more interesting for slime 19:38:29 kpreid: I dunno about you, but most of the things I do in scripts would screw up a long-running Lisp. 19:38:56 kreuter: sure, I'm imagining a lisp set up for debugging that script 19:39:03 stuff redefined, swank connection, etc etc 19:39:40 in an ordinary (not dispatch) reader macro, am I allowed to UNREAD-CHAR the macro character, or do nasal demons lurk here? 19:40:25 chandler: Interesting question. 19:41:10 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:41:26 clhs 2.2 19:41:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_b.htm 19:41:28 eh, was going through backtraces and saw CCL::MAGIC 19:41:44 chandler: can you think of a reason why that wouldn't work? 19:41:45 doesn't seem to leave any room for the reader to do something funny that would disrupt UNREAD-CHAR 19:42:12 I guess unread-char might not work on some kinds of stream. 19:42:24 chandler: It doesn't say explicitly that READ-CHAR is used to read the character 19:43:05 -!- esden`away is now known as esden 19:43:27 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.228.1] has quit [] 19:43:38 kreuter: I don't think there's any leeway for that in the standard, is there? 19:43:54 chandler: otoh, the way unread-char is specified "(or some other input operation which implicitly reads characters)", I think you can scratch my comment 19:44:19 chandler: in the worst case, since you get the macro character as an argument, you could construct a concatenated stream whose first stream was a string stream with a 1-char string containing the character, and whose second stream is the real stream, and pass that to whatever would do a subsequent read operation. 19:44:23 clhs unread-char 19:44:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_unrd_c.htm 19:44:35 gah tcr beat me 19:45:14 kreuter: Oh! I had forgotten all about concatenated streams. 19:45:25 CL contains multitudes of nonsense! 19:45:44 concatenated multitudes even! 19:45:48 of cats! 19:45:51 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-111.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 19:45:53 yeah you can use them together with echo streams to implement multiple-character-look-ahead buffers 19:46:09 Does CL contradict itself? Very well, it contradicts itself. It is large. It contains multitudes. 19:46:30 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 19:46:34 tcr: hey! I was just typing "I once implemented a rewindable stream that for some reason involved concatenated streams and symbol streams". 19:47:13 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-76.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:47:19 synonym-streams, I mean. 19:47:25 ah yeah you need them, too 19:47:45 For context, I'm making what would ordinarily be a constituent character a macro character, and would like to have it disabled by default unless the user requests it for their package. 19:50:18 what is "user" here? 19:50:22 a library user? 19:50:45 Yes, a library user. 19:50:58 wait, I was about to say anyone else would be luser, but would that be library user :P 19:50:59 IIRC, XMLisp does something similar 19:51:39 chandler: Why don't you just provide a enable-foo-syntax function which the user is supposed to use? 19:51:40 michaelw: Ah. And even the same character, then :-) 19:51:43 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl10-157-203.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:51:59 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-111.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:52:32 tcr: ILTWYS"J". Since it is an ordinary constituent character, it really should be enabled on a per-package basis lest the user install the macro and then load another library which happens to use symbols like . 19:53:01 chandler: oh dear... :) 19:53:06 My named-readtables let users specify custom readtables on a per file basis 19:53:59 -!- florist [n=florist@unaffiliated/florist] has quit ["leaving"] 19:54:00 That's nice. 19:54:25 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-06fe5bc440c23742] has joined #lisp 19:55:02 It'll only work on implementations implementing my (not yet officially published) CDR document specifying with-readtable-iterator; it's been so far implemented for sbcl, ccl, and clisp. 19:56:02 chandler. darcs get http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/editor-hints/ 19:57:03 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 19:57:07 -!- FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:57:56 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-7.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:36 drewc: herep? how's common-lisp.net migration going? 19:59:22 ehu: today is the day 19:59:50 drewc: did you see my response re disk thrashing on clnet? 19:59:51 great! 20:00:31 drewc: ehu: what's this migration you're talking about? 20:02:06 chandler: i see that. hmm. i can drop the RAM in the new instance and provision another VPS .. but it would be on the same physical machine .. so, we can probably achieve the same effect by running those disk-heavy cron jobs with a higher `nice` than the critters. 20:02:56 drewc: part of the problem, of course, is the way I'm storing pastes. fixing that is on my "round tuit" rewrite list, of course. 20:03:28 robot_jesus [n=csanders@hoovers-241.hoovers.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:31 oh cool. SET in sbcl is special cased for t and nil :) 20:04:44 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:46 Anyone here from England? 20:05:53 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:18 drewc: see ionice(1), it really helps 20:06:20 gigamonkey: are you looking for somebody to translate PCL into English? :) 20:06:25 antifuchs is now "from" england! 20:06:33 i am from england 20:06:38 fe[nl]ix: i'll check that out, probably perfect 20:06:39 Or know enough about England to know whether traffic lights there are red, green, and yellow (amber) as in the U.S. and not red, green, and blue? 20:06:45 kreuter: ouch. 20:06:47 To England! 20:06:47 ;-) 20:06:53 gigamonkey, amber 20:07:13 okay, just making sure one of my interviewees simply misspoke. 20:07:16 Thanks. 20:07:26 np 20:07:45 (and of course HIM Cabbage) 20:07:49 only blue lights are emergency services 20:07:50 Would folks there typically say "amber" or "yellow"? 20:07:59 amber for traffic lights 20:08:33 i tend to think of the colour as "sodium yellow" but that's just because on old traffic lights it looked like it 20:10:29 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 20:10:36 *gigamonkey* has no idea what "sodium yellow" looks like 20:11:03 traffic lights :) 20:11:08 gigamonkey: never seen a sodium lamp ? 20:11:27 it is the main colour in sodium's emmision spectrum 20:11:29 Not that I was aware of. 20:11:33 gigamonkey: I'm sorry. the last few times I've been around you've been asking people about translations. 20:11:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_vapor_lamp 20:11:45 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:11:46 kreuter: nah, I get it. Good joke. ;-) 20:12:38 what's the preferred compiler for commonlisp on win32 20:13:07 hidan: open source, CLISP; commercial: Allegro or Lispworks; bleeding-edge: SBCL 20:13:09 hidan: there are a few and they fill different niches. 20:13:16 depends on budget etc 20:13:17 corman lisp makes some happy too. 20:13:17 or Corman. 20:13:25 well, the compiler in SBCL isn't that bleedy 20:13:55 Xach: what would you recommend? 20:13:57 kreuter: are you picking nits (compiler vs. everything else) or actually saying the Windows SBCL is ready for prime time? 20:14:11 are these all cli generated compiler interfaces? 20:14:13 gigamonkey: nits. 20:14:17 hidan: if i wanted to develop programs on windows that windows users would like, i think i would try lispworks. 20:14:47 Xach: i'll take a look at it; oh and i came across your book ;) going to purchase it over the week. 20:14:58 hidan: thank you! the lesser author is here too. 20:15:10 he wrote everything *inside* 20:15:11 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:27 don't you know we read a book by it's cover :P 20:15:41 *only* its cover. 20:15:46 ;] 20:15:49 thank you everyone for joining today's gigamonkey roast 20:16:44 hidan: i would probably evaluate corman lisp too, but i think if i was writing programs for windows users my budget might allow for a lispworks license. 20:17:04 the lispworks user community is helpful and has a lot of serious application experience. 20:17:13 Ah, we've placed a lower bound on the price of Xach's soul. 20:17:24 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 20:17:30 *rvirding* asks what have I missed? 20:17:37 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbb03e.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:17:51 -!- silenius [n=jl@e178012187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:00 drewc: Any sign of my email to admin? 20:18:32 Xach: i'll take a look, and evaluate which i prefer 20:18:41 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:52 doesn't one of the lisps have a per-distributed copy royalty? 20:19:02 Guest26197: subject line? do you just want to re-send it anyway? 20:19:08 dcrawford: acl 20:19:39 Though if you really want to use Allegro it's worth talking to them to see if you can do some kind of deal. 20:20:06 i had 'dr scheme' once, that wasn't too bad (for scheme). 20:20:09 not like any lisp program has lots of users anyway :) 20:20:17 perhaps, something similar. 20:21:06 dcrawford: why not? 20:21:15 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:53 hidan: writing programs that have lots of users in *any* language is kind of hard 20:22:06 vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 20:22:26 Xach: i suppose. 20:22:43 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Client Quit] 20:23:12 i've heard InspireData has lots of users, so dcrawford is being silly. 20:23:20 -!- user___ [n=user@p549273BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:23:31 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:43 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:02 ;] 20:24:10 clbuild fails to build cl-ppcre for want of cl-unicode. anyone suggst a workaround or how to get? 20:24:19 users through web does count? 20:24:20 is this cormanlisp cli ? 20:24:56 lukego: http://weitz.de/cl-unicode/ is probably too easy an answer? 20:25:03 lukego: one way is to add cl-unicode into projects 20:25:17 can someone here fix it in clbuild and I just do 'darcs pull'? 20:25:20 ediware-get or get-ediware 20:25:46 minion: yoohoo how many users have you? 20:25:46 what's up? 20:25:58 lukego, I think I read that recently -- it had to do with cl-ppcre test suite, not cl-ppcre itself 20:26:15 hidan: If you are looking for a solution with an integraded IDE, I'd suggest trying LispWorks. 20:26:21 s/integraded/integrated/ 20:26:35 really nice if someone makes 'clbuild build cl-ppcre' work in one way or another :) 20:26:40 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-43-247.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:26:51 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 20:27:06 -!- tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2E93E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:27:10 chandler: oh, hmm alright. 20:27:54 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.200.179] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:31:18 lukego: BTW, how does the smalltalk world fare in the library installation department? 20:32:24 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 20:33:44 what's the opinion on splitting off a large project into several .asds following the com.domain.package naming scheme? (and using the same scheme for the packages, using one packages.lisp per 'module') 20:34:13 sykopomp: I do it. 20:34:16 I hate com.domain.package naming. But that's just me. 20:34:26 gigamonkey: I know -you- do, I read your book :P 20:34:45 Oh, yeah. Well, I do it in real life too. 20:35:10 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 20:35:32 hm. Is there a particular reason why it's a good idea to use your domain for it? 20:35:54 bpr [n=user@cpe-72-226-72-222.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:59 (just trying to make sense of it. I'm torn. I have it all with com.domain.package now, and I'm not sure how I feel about it) 20:36:26 I use strings in defpackage forms, too, so I might be the anti-progress type. 20:36:28 The main trick with com.domain.package names is if you ever have to fully qualify a symbol you lose. 20:36:58 But if you ever have to fully qualify a symbol name, it could be argued that you've already lost so making it that much more painfully obvious might be considered a feature. 20:37:32 I am also the one who put the feature into SLIME that it automatically abreviates the package name in the prompt to just the PACKAGE part of COM.DOMAIN.PACKAGE. 20:37:36 What do you mean by fully qualify a symbol? Having to use com.domain.package:exported-symbol? 20:37:42 yeah. 20:37:45 -!- spiderbyte is now known as nmox 20:37:45 ah 20:37:51 -!- nmox is now known as dcl 20:38:09 veritius [n=po@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:38:14 Though you could always create a nickname. But that sort of defeats the purpose of using domain-style package names. 20:38:31 sykopomp: ASDF might not like dots in system names. 20:38:45 kreuter: no, it's fine. I do it all the time. 20:38:59 kreuter: bknr uses it, without the domain style, and I'm using it now, I haven't run into issues, either. 20:40:01 Do packages nest? 20:40:23 I don't believe so... 20:40:26 Like com.domain.package:com.anotherdomain.anotherpackage:exported-symbol 20:40:32 no 20:40:36 V-ille: no. 20:40:43 that would be hilarious though 20:41:19 well, then one could do com.domain:package:exported-symbol, maybe 20:41:23 oh, right. it's dots in component names that make problems. never mind. 20:41:26 michaelw: not very excellent in Squeak, there's a central repository and some support for saying "this program is tested with squeak version X" but in practice lots of frustrating incompatibilities 20:42:26 cool, just like on this side of the fence :) 20:42:35 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4425F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:50 So I can't export a package? Bummer. I thought that is possible. 20:43:09 V-ille: that does not make sense 20:43:12 Never played with packages much, though. 20:43:13 You export symbols from a package and then other packages can use that package. 20:43:16 exporting is a symbol-level operation 20:43:16 booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:20 Ok. 20:43:31 have a look at chapter 11 of the CLHS 20:43:45 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:44:37 FWIW, I disagree with gigamonkey about com.foo.blah packages, and also on fully-qualifying symbols. 20:44:47 V-ille: you could still write something that exports everything in a package :) 20:44:57 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 20:45:03 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@u-6-110.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:13 michaelw: which part of "fully-qualifying symbols" do you disagree with? 20:45:16 MHOOO [n=nah@u-7-077.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:45:38 kreuter: that one has automatically lost if fully qualification is needed 20:45:47 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:50 o 20:45:51 ok 20:46:24 bpt [n=bpt@12-184-64-194.att-inc.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:11 if only the standard would have called it namespace instead of package, I think a lot of confusion would have been prevented. 20:47:49 Because "namespace" isn't overloaded at all in the lisp world. 20:48:11 :)) 20:48:27 michaelw: on Squeak they do have people maintaining "images" containing lots of packages that have been integrated and play nicely together, so that can save a lot of headaches to get up and running "batteries included". but installing random not-super-popular programs additionally is a mixed bag 20:49:27 but with clbuild I strongly feel that the point is that if "clbuild build world" fails then you should not work around but should contact someone responsible-looking and say "hey 'clbuild build world' fails, it will fail on your computer too, please make it work and tell me!" 20:49:53 -!- _adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 20:50:13 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 20:50:15 lukego: sure, but since everything is a moving target that's bound to happen. 20:50:57 gigamonkey: I said "hate" wrt com.domain.package style names; hate is a strong word, and I certainly don't mean to insult you or others who like that style (though I myself don't care for it.) 20:51:02 gigamonkey: well, FLURB is not overloaded from what I can tell, but that doesn't make it a good choice either... 20:51:05 lukego: I want to set up a buildbot for clbuild. 20:51:15 -!- hidan [n=hidan@212.100.69.12] has left #lisp 20:51:23 rme: yeah, no worries. 20:51:48 speaking of batteries for programs, I looked at lispbuilder the other day. how come I don't hear more about that 20:51:52 gigamonkey: I _hate_ the com.domain style, with all the strength that implies! 20:52:05 drewc, so, not at all? ^_^ 20:52:15 michaelw: I'm just saying, one of the main issues with packages is newbies seem to expect to be able to export functions and variables, not symbols. Well, we have a lot of stuff that talks about separate function and variable "namespaces" so I think the confusion would be at least as bad. 20:52:33 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-06fe5bc440c23742] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:52:40 only because i do not think it's a bad thing the package qualify symbols, and i do it all the time. 20:52:44 *tic* tries to bring back the Package Confusion while it's still somewhat fresh in mind. 20:52:50 to package qualify* 20:52:50 drewc: I resent the project request. I cc'd your gmail account directly. I got a bounce from the common-lisp.net postfix: #@common-lisp.net> (expanded from ): unknown user: "#" 20:53:12 I also want my project setup at c-l.net! 20:53:17 *tic* stresses drewc out 20:53:31 I resent that project request too! 20:53:32 H4ns: do you know anything about the b0rken admin@? 20:53:38 Guest26197: that sounds like newaliases fun 20:53:55 s/new// 20:54:00 -!- bpt [n=bpt@12-184-64-194.att-inc.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:54:00 gigamonkey: resent .. lol :) 20:54:49 -!- dcl [n=spiderby@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 20:55:27 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a6c6a41079e835b6] has joined #lisp 20:55:51 Guest26197: did you get a ticket number back from rt ? 20:56:06 heh, I also wondered why Guest26197 resents the request. :) 20:56:14 gigamonkey: rock and hard place, then. It's also too bad that the spec did not leave a backdoor open for a proper module system 20:56:41 drewc: I also got the following error, which may help pinpoint the problem: temporary@common-lisp.net> (expanded from ): unknown 20:56:47 Well, Lisp is pretty much nothing but back doors at some level. 20:57:08 If someone wants to define "proper module system" they could probably implement it on top of Common Lisp. 20:57:16 michaelw: i think provide and require are underspecified enough to be considered a giant backdoor. 20:57:21 My impression is that nobody really knows what a proper module system looks like. 20:57:34 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46D97.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:57:42 hang on, disambiguation time. modules or modules? 20:57:51 drewc: Yes, this time I got a message from RT. My ticket id is 23. 20:57:59 how odd. 20:58:14 I keep hearing about this "proper" module system regarding a bunch of languages. I concur with gigamonkey, nobody knows what such a "proper" module system would be. 20:58:18 kreuter: not CL modules 20:58:25 gigamonkey: at that level, does it makes sense to call them `back' doors? 20:58:26 Guest26197: regardless, you won't be getting it until later tonight after the migration :) 20:58:26 i.e., modules in the CLHS are basically systems without any fancyschmancy structure. modules in the sense of "proper module system" are something else. 20:58:41 salex: yeah, that metaphor got a bit mangled. 20:58:50 drewc: there is no way to influence the reader's interning. having that would help 20:58:52 gigamonkey: more like walls having handy door-making capabilities :) 20:59:11 michaelw: that's true. I've long wanted "intern-macros" 20:59:12 drewc: OK. I'm just happy that it's in the queue somewhere ... 20:59:39 michaelw: i have a meta-protocol for the reader/packages in mind that would fix exactly that. 20:59:40 DanielRM [n=daniel@cpc2-grim8-0-0-cust248.nott.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:54 doors? I don't need no doors, I don't need no stinkin' doors 20:59:55 i should really write that up as a CDR. 21:00:05 drewc: write it up, I'd look at it. I am sure tcr would, too. 21:00:20 the scheme48 module system is pretty nice, FWIW. 21:00:37 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:00:45 drewc: would that allow you to hook into the reader to make 123m be read as some arbitrary form (like (meters 123))? 21:00:53 I think Cloure's got an interesting take on symbols, namespaces, and bindings. 21:01:08 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:12 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:01:12 gigamonkey: that 21:01:20 that's one use case yeah. 21:01:54 gigamonkey: do you want that for all possible tokens, or only ones with potnum syntax? 21:02:00 -!- cky [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit ["BRB, restarting X server :-)"] 21:02:09 kreuter: well, for full generality, probably all tokens. 21:02:12 *kreuter* sees no reason not to have a *parse-potnum-hook*. 21:02:16 emilbarton [n=eb@66.192.84-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:39 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:02:55 cap'n hooks for all! 21:02:56 kreuter: I extended RATIO syntax to allow 3/2 to be written as 1+1/2. it was slightly painful 21:03:05 cky [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:03:14 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 21:03:24 michaelw: in what sense? 21:03:52 michaelw: I was thinking about that the other day. Of course I wanted to write 1 1/2 which requires hooking into the reader much lower down (and introduces all kinds of possible ambiguity into the parse.) 21:03:55 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:04:15 silenius [n=jl@e178012187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:04:34 But conceivably if such numbers always ended with a unit of some sort it could work, e.g. 1 1/2" 21:04:35 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 21:04:44 kreuter: loop for char across "+-0123456789abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ" 21:05:05 michaelw: huh? 21:05:23 oh, I see. 21:05:35 yeah, I've done that before too. 21:05:39 kreuter: I had to install the ratio reader on a lot of characters... 21:06:31 I guess it makes me happy enough that I can do it that I don't find it all that horrible. 21:07:18 kreuter: you just described how i feel about common lisp in general :) 21:08:35 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a6c6a41079e835b6] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:08:54 lukego: so, if some things are provided by image maintainer A, and others by image maintainer B, I completely lose, eh? 21:09:50 bah, battery is almost dead and the power brick's at work 21:09:55 *michaelw* bows out 21:10:23 ah, the travails of the mobile hacker 21:10:53 *drewc* cannot wait for Mr. Fusion. 21:12:43 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:13:58 Hmmm. My happiness at finding that I could make symbols with names not known at runtime via (set) has been slightly dampened by my apparent inability to write a function which doesn't return an error message after running code which I've run outside the function successfully. 21:14:07 names not known at compile-time* 21:14:43 it'd be more interesting if their names weren't known at runtime, too. 21:14:58 you realize that you can't SET a lexical variable, right? 21:15:16 Apparently not. 21:15:46 I should probably read more before trying to put incomplete knowledge to use. 21:15:47 kreuter: So what about the changes? 21:15:47 clhs set 21:15:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set.htm 21:15:51 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-066-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:09 DanielRM: always a good idea. what are you actually trying to achieve? 21:16:10 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:07 tcr: I'm okay with tcr-reader-hacking, though I think I want to split into a few different commits (cleanups, immutable readtables, distinguished conditions) 21:17:15 I haven't looked at the other branches. 21:17:58 salex: making a function which takes several arguments, amongst them a string, and makes a vector containing the rest of the arguments with name equal to the string. 21:18:35 salex: that is to say, the vector's name is the string.* 21:18:53 kreuter: Yes, of course. Notice that I haven't implemented immutable readtables; I'd prefer merging what I have, and adapting it some time later when the other changes are applied, too. 21:18:54 tcr: did we talk about whether to have an immuability flag for readtables? 21:19:10 ok 21:19:24 I don't feel strongly about it. Nikodemus seemed for it. 21:19:28 DanielRM: What do you mean by "the vector's name"? 21:21:29 DanielRM_ [n=daniel@cpc2-grim8-0-0-cust248.nott.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:35 salex: what was the last thing I said? 21:21:36 gigamonkey: the name by which the vector is referred to. 21:21:41 tcr: I non-SBCL work I have to get done before the end of the week. would you have the time to split up tcr-reader-hacking into prohibiting modifying the standard readtable, the reader/package errors (& maybe restarts), and misc. cleanups? 21:21:51 I have non-SBCL work, that is. 21:21:51 DanielRM: that doesn't actually make sense. 21:21:56 -!- DanielRM [n=daniel@cpc2-grim8-0-0-cust248.nott.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:22:03 -!- DanielRM_ is now known as DanielRM 21:22:13 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:22:16 DanielRM_ [n=daniel@cpc2-grim8-0-0-cust248.nott.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:19 kreuter: Yes, I think I'll find some time for it. 21:22:25 thanks. 21:23:14 In code you might have a variable whose value is a vector and in that sense you might think of that being "the name" of the vector but the vector is independent of the name (and can have other names in other contexts.) 21:23:16 milos_ [n=milos@92.36.171.38] has joined #lisp 21:23:27 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 21:23:41 gigamonkey: would it be better to refer to 'a' name for the vector, then? 21:24:27 Well, you could. The real question is, in what context do you want to create a "name"? 21:24:54 gigamonkey: would it help if I pastebinned the (defun)? 21:24:59 perhaps. 21:25:34 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:40 tcr: I notice you've got some tabs in your commits. could do the canonicalize-whitespace step before committing? 21:26:01 Or tell us what you're *really* trying to do. (I.e. why do you think you want to create a named vector.) 21:26:15 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.132.9] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:26:19 kreuter: What do you have in your .emacs to prevent it from inserting those? 21:26:30 tcr: hair! 21:26:32 hang on 21:26:56 I think DanielRM is trying to intern a new symbol and bind his vector to it 21:26:56 ultimately, (setq indent-tabs-mode nil) 21:27:09 I'll paste 21:27:22 (setf (symbol-value (intern "FOO")) (apply #'vector args))? 21:27:33 bicbw. DanielRM, last thing you said was "the vectors name is the string" 21:27:41 salex: ah, thanks. 21:27:45 gigamonkey: something like that, but I'm guessing 21:27:52 DanielRM: why do you want to do this? 21:27:59 salex: I'm on a very bad connection so I keep being dropped. 21:28:35 gigamonkey: except "FOO" is more like (format nil "~S" name) or whatever 21:29:06 salex: probably (string-upcase name) is what he really wants. 21:29:15 true 21:29:19 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:29:41 Except to the extent that this whole line of desire will turn out to be misguided. (Don't worry DanielRM, we've all been there.) 21:30:03 It's an extraordinarily basic evolution simulation and I'm trying to make it so that the user can define a new species, it being modelled by a vector of properties, and then the species' vector can be referred to internally by the name given. 21:30:25 gigamonkey: I've never been anywhere but there it seems. :( 21:30:27 gigamonkey: right 21:30:41 DanielRM: In that case, it sounds like what you want is a hash table. 21:30:59 DanielRM: we can tell you how to write that function so it works. But you almost certainly don't want to do it 21:31:20 You could use the global variable environment but it's a bit odd. 21:31:22 gigamonkey, salex: I bow to your experience. 21:31:24 pwnded by gigamonkey. sounds like a hash would be good 21:31:56 Can hash tables be made of variable size in the same manner that vectors can? 21:32:08 in an even better manner, in this case 21:32:08 They grow (and possibly shrink) as needed. 21:32:20 gigamonkey: sounds perfect then. 21:33:00 I'll read PCL again then and pay attention when it mentions hash tables. 21:33:02 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:33:03 *Fade* conquers his ppc build 21:33:16 DanielRM: that's the way to butter him up ;) 21:33:26 You can also use plain old strings as the keys though there may be reasons to prefer symbols. 21:33:45 yes. hard to say without seeing exactly how they're used. 21:33:49 gigamonkey: are you the actual gigamonkey? Seibel himself? :O 21:33:56 http://l1sp.org/pcl/make-hash-table 21:34:14 DanielRM: yup. 21:34:35 gigamonkey: good god. 21:34:47 so when he says, been there, done that, wrote the book -- he means it :) 21:34:50 gigamonkey: it's like being in the presence of royalty. 21:34:56 heh 21:35:34 gigamonkey: mind if I worship you? Reading the first few chapters of your book is what interested me in Common Lisp in the first place! 21:35:35 some of us remember his first steps on c.l.l., discussing the merits of a new book with Kent ;) 21:35:42 *gigamonkey* has been so busy working on Coders at Work, he's going to have to go back and reread PCL one of these days to remember any Lisp. 21:35:57 giga: ETA? :-) 21:36:04 DanielRM: Worship Lisp. I am only it's prophet. ;-) 21:36:04 gigamonkey, it's very simplL. )))))) 21:36:05 DanielRM: you do realize the book quotes this channel on its cover, right 21:36:07 salex: you're amongst those people? 21:36:13 Xach's endorsment, even 21:36:37 lukego: Yeah. Dunno. Sooner if I'd shut this IRC window. 21:36:46 so you shouldn't be completely gobsmacked he still graces us with his presence.... 21:36:51 salex: I didn't know he'd still hang around #lisp 21:37:34 salex: book authors have always been vague celestial beings in my mind, above mere mortals like myself. XD 21:37:41 there's some other place on the intertron where lisp weenies hang out? :) 21:37:46 kreuter pasted "My SBCL source hooks, for tcr" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68128 21:38:03 how better to procrastinate while finishing the new book, right gigamonkey ? 21:38:12 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl10-157-203.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:16 tcr: um, that's using CVS Emacs version 21:38:17 exactyl. 21:39:50 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:40:27 *DanielRM* looks around. 21:40:35 Lispniks, the princes of programming. 21:41:25 gmlk [n=gmlk@alicia.demon.nl] has joined #lisp 21:42:46 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has left #lisp 21:44:41 heh, in reddit talk about open sourcing the old lisp code: "In the beginning, there was Lisp..." 21:45:29 -!- rpg__ [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:45:33 I like the xkcd comic which talks about Lisp in the manner Obi-Wan referred to lightsabres. 21:46:40 Anyone knows whether I can determine a cygwin environment through CFFI? (for some reason cl-opengl uses the libs for :unix instead of :windows) 21:46:43 What were the exact words? "An elegant language from a more civilized age"? 21:47:08 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:38 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:16 ericklc [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 21:48:44 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:49:28 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["eaten by grue"] 21:49:56 -!- ericklc [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Client Quit] 21:50:54 zbrahead91 [n=Richard@cpc1-grim11-0-0-cust82.nott.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:35 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:51:37 dcrawford: shouldn't that be "In the beginning, there was LISP ... " ? 21:51:58 DanielRM: i find that thread ironic considering the number of reddit clones done in lisp.. there is even a video FFS. 21:51:58 salex: referring to McCarthy's original version? 21:52:12 Erm, as for LISP,any tips on how to learn it from a C++ perspective? 21:52:21 RAWR @ DnaielRM 21:52:22 forget the c++ ? 21:52:22 drewc: lol 21:52:32 minion: tell zbrahead91 about that-dead-sexy-book 21:52:33 C++ is too powerful 21:52:34 zbrahead91: hello. 21:52:37 zbrahead91: please look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:52:49 zbrahead91: ammonia is powerful. it's bad to internalize, however. 21:52:59 All I have seen is C&Ped text from that book by DanielRM in vague attempts to call it his onw 21:53:07 own* 21:53:08 :P 21:53:12 zbrahead91: i suggest you approach lisp on its own terms .. it is most certainly not c++ 21:53:20 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:22 zbrahead91: I never called it my own. 21:53:24 i understand that 21:53:24 no, I mean when learning a different language trying to compare it to another from a different family just confuses everything 21:53:29 DanielRM: thank you so much for that one :D *bursting into laughter* 21:53:37 pixel5: ? 21:53:42 DanielRM: the comic is great 21:53:56 pixel5: heh, xkcd is brilliant. 21:54:08 My only use really for lisp is a decent interpreted language 21:54:09 pixel5: there was another Lisp one as well. 21:54:14 zbrahead91: gah! 21:54:23 zbrahead91: eventually, when you're good at it, you can sorta think about aspects of Lisp and C or C++ in the same light, but trying to learn one by translating concepts from the other is not effective, anecdotally. 21:54:26 zbrahead91: most implementations compile it. 21:54:26 except, the repl is most often still compiled 21:54:48 zbrahead91: I did explain that earlier today or yesterday I'm sure. 21:54:50 Dynamic compiling then 21:54:52 In-line 21:54:55 What haveyou 21:55:10 inline is something else also :) 21:55:15 meaning, you can compile something in at runtime from what I see 21:55:17 Meh 21:55:25 disumu [n=disumu@p57A278C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:45 zbrahead91: it's correct that Lisp has a function called COMPILE. 21:55:46 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 21:55:56 I know that -.- 21:55:59 but really read the PCL link above 21:56:10 PCL confuses me a little 21:56:29 And i would like it in 'dead-tree' form 21:56:46 feel free to buy it, sure gigamonkey will appreciate it :) 21:56:48 zbrahead91: that can be arranged. 21:56:48 zbrahead: if you have a specific question, you may ask it here 21:57:16 It costs money D: 21:57:33 zbrahead91: I'll buy you it as a Christmas present. 21:57:35 zbrahead91: what were you saying about compiling things at runtime? 21:57:39 hej adeht; I'm seriously considering making the generator return the terminating flag also. the gmane interface for cdr-discuss seems to be broken, though, at the moment. 21:57:48 adeht: It's a bit unfortune because I'm running out of time. 21:57:56 From what I see, the REPL is compiled, right? 21:58:15 except when it isn't, but usually 21:58:20 ARGH! 21:58:27 Dont confuse me more D: 21:58:29 tcr: I see, that's why my message didn't get through I suppose. did you get my privmsgs the other day? 21:58:30 zbrahead91: that's implementation-specific, but some implementations do compile forms that you enter at the REPL, yeah. 21:58:31 Usually it isn't 21:58:33 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:47 Is CLISPs REPL compiled? 21:58:50 tcr, sbcl is in its standard repl 21:59:19 tcr: what do you think about adding something to CDR 6 asking implementors of the API to push :CDR-6 onto *FEATURES*? 21:59:22 How does that make it usual? 21:59:29 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:59:44 people around here usually talk about SBCL? :) 22:00:10 I think I know of others, just not as positive 22:00:20 SBCL is very idiosyncratic on this one. 22:00:23 I really like Clisp's REPL. 22:00:31 I believe Corman Lisp does. 22:00:35 Does Allegro? 22:00:52 is CLISPS REPL compiled? 22:00:55 adeht: Yes, I did. I replied something, but I think you didn't get what I replied. 22:01:09 I didn't. 22:01:11 adeht: I cannot remember what you said, neither can I remember what I replied. :) 22:01:16 zbrahead91: not everyone here uses Clisp. 22:01:20 :) 22:01:23 zbrahead91: no. 22:01:31 Blast 22:01:34 kreuter: Allegro doesn't as far as I understand it -- not sure why not 22:01:37 zbrahead91: It doesn't matter much if what you type at the REPL is compiled or isn't. 22:01:37 So it's interpretd? 22:01:45 argh >.< 22:01:51 It's *evaluated*. 22:01:58 Ow blah 22:02:01 So 22:02:02 zbrahead91: worse, Clisp only compiles to a byte code, which it then has to interpret! heavens to betsy! 22:02:06 Is this possible: 22:02:11 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:21 the horror! 22:02:32 connections being reset? yes 22:02:32 *gigamonkey* braces for 'producing standalone executable' question. 22:02:36 lol kreuter! They only say Heavens to Betsy in Enid Blyton books :p 22:02:47 zbrahead91: I'm bringin' it back. 22:02:58 kreuter: I didn't include that one because I did not have any reference. You never submitted your cdr. 22:03:02 no. no one laughs at kreuter. no possible :P 22:03:16 kreuter: heavens to Betsy, what a worthy cause! You have my fullest support. 22:03:17 s/no p/not p/ 22:03:30 kreuter: In the case of CDR6 it's not so important, though. It's likely only used by slime, and there we have implementation specific backends anyway. 22:04:14 So is this possible: I create a program which edits itself 22:04:23 then makes another copy of itself 22:04:33 So there are 2 copies 22:04:39 The original 22:04:42 And the modified 22:04:43 zbrahead91: define "edit" and "copy" 22:04:50 oh, time to go. 22:04:53 How about talking in whole sentences? 22:05:01 bye, #lisp. 22:05:15 kreuter: thanks for your time earlier 22:05:39 Later, kreuter. 22:06:03 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-214-15-221.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:15 zbrahead91: read this: http://www.generation5.org/content/2000/ga00.asp 22:06:57 zbrahead91: and maybe this before that: http://www.generation5.org/content/2000/ga.asp 22:07:04 Im talking in C++ Object terms here, but copy is a something like two instances of a class i.e.class foo{}; foo a,b;. and edit means that a is different than b at the code level, yet they both exist 22:07:22 Heh! 22:07:30 Thats what Im attempting to do, sort of 22:07:54 I have no real idea what you're trying to do but the answer is almost certainly, yes. 22:08:22 I need to *understand* lisp :( 22:08:34 How to edit files in Lisp? 22:08:45 with an editor 22:08:47 zbrahead91: trust me on this a) you can do pretty much anything you want to (some assembly required) adn b) try to forget everything you know about c++ when learning 22:08:49 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:56 ^ 22:08:57 By typing into the keyboard in front of you 22:09:00 Meeeh >.< 22:09:05 minion: slime 22:09:06 slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 22:09:15 zbrahead91: there are (open) and (close) functions. 22:09:16 zbrahead91: suggest emacs + slime + sbcl, for starters 22:09:25 zbrahead91: and safer (with-file-open) functions etc. 22:09:35 I meant from within the program, something like C++s fstream 22:09:35 zbrahead91: if you mean file I/O. 22:09:35 with-open-file 22:09:40 is a macro 22:09:50 Hun: that's the bunny. 22:10:34 -!- milos_ [n=milos@92.36.171.38] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:10:49 zbrahead91: you mean file I/O. there are many facilities for this. Read, and thou shall be enlightened. One hopes. 22:11:02 Emacs does my head in. It is an text editor spawned in a convoluted way by a man who thinks that GNU Hurd is good :P 22:11:18 heck, you might find you want to toss c++ entirely after a while (I did) 22:11:19 No it is not, kid. 22:11:31 written first in what, TECO ? 22:11:32 Mr Stallman, is it not? 22:11:35 I just prefer vim to emacs. 22:11:44 hey guys 22:11:46 minion: limp 22:11:46 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``limp''. 22:11:53 screw text editor wars 22:12:05 When in Linux, I use Code::Blocks for my C++ :P and gedit for almost everything else 22:12:06 real men use ed 22:12:07 limp isn't in minion ? 22:12:08 damn, I was just going to start argueing for ed 22:12:08 sykopomp: but that's half the fun of running a Unix-like OS! 22:12:13 zbrahead91: GNU Emacs was modelled on emacs-like editors which existed since the seventies 22:12:19 I just love it when another poor soul has found Lisp and tries to map C++ down over it, not getting the deeper points 22:12:27 Ogedei: ed is the STANDARD EDITOR ! 22:12:28 zbrahead91: if you want to have a smoother time learning lisp, go with slime/emacs/sbcl. Get over your emacs-phobia. It's deprecated. 22:12:39 lol ok. 22:12:44 zbrahead91: also, www.gigamonkeys.com/book <-- use that 22:12:44 *zbrahead91* glares at DanielRM 22:12:46 read that book 22:12:50 zbrahead91: ? 22:12:50 but seriously, emacs has some real advantages for lisp 22:12:51 Heh, Will do. 22:12:55 tcr: though you can't, I don't think, deny that Stallman was involved in the creation of Emacs in those days. 22:12:56 when you're done with that book, ask questions 22:13:07 zbrahead91: just because I hate emacs doesn't mean you have to. 22:13:15 I dislike it too 22:13:19 jlouis: it helps if your hate for the braindamage in c++ has driven you to find lisp, though. 22:13:20 we're not talking about embracing emacs as the one true editor .. it happens to be the host for slime, which kicks ass. 22:13:23 But you introduced me to it :OP 22:13:27 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:13:35 Nah 22:13:44 DanielRM is forcing me into Lisp 22:13:48 zbrahead91: to be fair you introduced me to Linux. 22:13:57 nobody is forcing you to give up your trusty text editors... emacs is not a text editor. 22:14:00 Seeing as I cannot understand the code :p 22:14:01 salex, Lisp used in anger ;) 22:14:12 zbrahead91: Who forced you into C++? S/he's the one that should be punished. Hard. 22:14:21 zbrahead91: I couldn't care less what language you do it in now. You're trying to model in too much detail for my liking. 22:14:25 I bought the book :P 22:14:28 C++ should be considered a crime against humanity in international law. 22:14:32 It was a shit book :( 22:14:33 jlouis: template metaprogramming can drive anyone to drink. better to be driven to defmacro ;) 22:14:39 maybe then we'll start seeing people hang. 22:14:57 But it gave me the basics. (I had first learned PHP) 22:14:57 ...and we're off in the weeds 22:15:02 *gigamonkey* is glad he at least bought the book. 22:15:15 salex: aha, you're here 22:15:17 *gigamonkey* hopes it wasn't a used copy. 22:15:21 hey Krystof 22:15:21 ? 22:15:21 salex, ever tried an ML functor? It is a bit down the same path ;) 22:15:28 gigamonkey: i think it was another book he meant 22:15:32 he/she/it 22:15:39 minion: limp? 22:15:39 limp: Limp, a Lisp IDE for vim. http://www.cliki.net/limp 22:15:42 jlouis: indeed 22:15:50 Why is Lisp more powerful than C++, in pure power terms? 22:16:00 better design. next question? 22:16:02 C++ is easier to grasp 22:16:07 In my opinion. 22:16:08 .... BAH! 22:16:08 haha 22:16:10 wha? 22:16:10 zbrahead91, go read the gigamonkey book and then ask that question 22:16:22 salex: can you confirm for me my intuition that there is an algorithm analogous to Viterbi that produces not the maximum-likelihood state sequence from an HMM given observations, but a sample from the probabilitiy distribution over internal states given an observation sequence? 22:16:23 i don't think we should go there 22:16:31 zbrahead91, you must form your own opinion on that rather than trust other people 22:16:33 stassats`: if that page doesn't load because of my rubbish connection then I will murder you for making me aware of its existence. :( 22:16:59 zbrahead91: go learn lisp. Happy hacking :) 22:17:06 \o/ Stassets 22:17:14 stassats* 22:17:14 stassats`: it didn't load. D: 22:17:22 zbrahead91: if you're really stubborn like a friend of mine, pick up clisp and do everything in system-scripting-style with a fancy repl. 22:17:33 llol 22:17:34 actually, grab clisp anyways. It's a great calculator. 22:17:35 zbrahead91: thank tic 22:17:43 Krystof: that sounds right, but hang on a sec, someone is talking to me (in office) atm 22:17:44 lol 22:17:48 ask them! 22:17:50 That may get me into vim :P 22:18:11 zbrahead91: the One True Editor. 22:18:20 ed 22:18:21 zbrahead91: if you're used to Eclipse, there's also CUSP. You might try that as well. 22:18:41 Huzzah! Page is loading after the third attempt at visiting it! 22:18:41 but then you'll have to be shot 22:18:42 Eclipse is a right royal pain in the backside 22:18:52 And the person who invented it needs to be shot. 22:18:59 It's just another link! D: 22:19:03 zbrahead91: what editor do you use for C++? 22:19:09 Code::Blocks 22:19:36 Its a bloody good one IMO that makes development in C++ deliriously easy for multi-file projects 22:19:53 Krystof: you're are *not* meaning the forward algorithm, correct? 22:20:11 Okay. Well, you can't use that for Lisp. So you're either going to give up on Lisp or learn something new. 22:20:15 I might be meaning a modified version, but no, not just computing the likelihood 22:20:42 The good news is that Emacs + SLIME is a bloody good development environment for Lisp. 22:20:50 I like learning programming Languages, i've just stuck to ALGOL derived ones :P 22:21:03 I mean given an observation sequence, give me a hidden state sequence corresponding to that observation sequence, with probability proportional to the .. bah, words 22:21:12 zbrahead91: Personally, I didn't care much for emacs until I tried SLIME. Now, I find it painful to develop with anything else. 22:21:14 which "base" package should I use for my packages? cl-user? 22:21:15 erm, forward gives probability of given seqn, viterbi gives ML 22:21:16 zbrahead91, no you haven't ;) 22:21:17 If Lisp is so good, why isn't there an OS written in it, BTW? 22:21:18 I want to have a q* with probability P(q*|O,\lambda) 22:21:26 Tordek: :common-lisp 22:21:29 Tordek: cl 22:21:34 thanks 22:21:37 zbrahead91, there is 22:21:46 zbrahead91, see lisp machine 22:21:47 I want to sample from the possible hidden state sequences given an observed sequence 22:21:54 zbrahead91: google lisp machines, too late... 22:21:59 lol 22:22:06 zbrahead91: you're going into some pretty complex politics here. There's something called Lisp Machines that used to be all the rage until AI croaked. 22:22:11 we're still trying to get to that level again 22:22:12 -!- persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 22:22:17 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 22:22:17 My fondest dream is to have a Lisp machine. 22:22:20 *sykopomp* watches the sudden stream of 'lisp machines' 22:22:29 Krystof: gotcha, which isn't quite the same. ok, i understand what you're after. 22:22:31 sykopomp, infinite? 22:22:33 DanielRM: it's called emacs 22:22:36 *salex* ducks 22:22:40 A machine that runs Lisp down to the OS sounds heavenly. 22:22:41 You know, you guys talking about dead computers are interfering with my machine learning discussion 22:22:44 They are just hardware REPLs from what ican glean from first few minutes off of wiki 22:22:45 *gigamonkey* folks almost got me a Symbolics machine for me birthday a few years back. But then they came to their senses. 22:22:49 salex: but it lacks a decent text editor! :P 22:22:52 minion : Lisp Machines 22:22:54 minion : Lisp Machine 22:22:56 Oops. Meant to say that. 22:22:56 and I can point to lisp code that makes my discussion more on topic than your discussion 22:23:07 zbrahead91: seriously, stop speaking nonsense. Learn yourself a new language and stop trying to judge it before you know it. 22:23:20 Im not judging it. 22:23:31 I'm going to cook dinner. Goodbye all. 22:23:58 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.228.67] has quit ["sleep"] 22:24:06 zbrahead: there's also Movitz, which is something you can play with on an IA32 22:24:24 rpg__ [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:39 salex: so I think it is some trivial manipulation of the viterbi algorithm, something like using \sum instead of \max and possibly dividing on the backward branch by the observation probability 22:24:47 -!- xristos [n=xristos@93-97-209-110.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:24:50 Im the unfortunate kind of person who judgies things as they see them at that moment in time, and my opinions are so volatile (as DanielRM will tell you). :(. But from what I see so far, my outlook is a load of blahdigook for something that seems to have less features. 22:24:51 but then I think that, erm, wait, surely someone else has written it down somewhere 22:24:56 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:24:57 But it has one winner feature 22:24:57 and then my google skillz fail me 22:24:59 operating systems are obsolete anyway... it's all about VM now... 22:25:05 That I *really* want to use :D 22:25:13 Krystof: I don't recall doing this myself, but it seems like it should be fairly immediate 22:25:21 @sladegen, what OS you run VM in then? 22:25:25 ok, maybe it's too trivial for anyone to have written down 22:25:28 zbrahead: you seem to be more interested in discussing your preconceptions about Lisp rather than learning it.. 22:25:34 i'm scribbling now, trying to trigger a memory 22:25:41 stassats`: having gotten the page to load Limp looks heavenly. 22:25:45 Im reading the book as we speak -.- 22:25:55 Krystof: in what context are you using this? 22:25:58 it might be as simple as \alpha_t(i) normalized 22:25:59 i mean the appraoch 22:26:09 zbrahead91: intertibezos 22:26:24 the canonical application of HMMs to symbolic music is harmonizing Bach chorales 22:26:24 yeah, soemthing like that. assuming i've got the notation straight 22:26:26 silenius_ [n=jl@e178012187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:26:28 intertubezos... bah silly typos. 22:26:31 sladegen, You what!? 22:26:40 zbrahead: might I suggest a more sequential approach, then. first, rafb. then, ask questions. 22:26:52 zbrahead91: maybe it'd be a less confusing book if you gave it a bit of focus. 22:26:55 the problem with a simple application of Viterbi is that, by definition, the harmonization it comes up with is more probable than the one Bach chose 22:26:55 Krystof: heh. sigh, that sounds like much more fun that what I've been spending the last few weeks on . 22:27:03 DanielRM: thank tic, the author, i'm not even using limp 22:27:08 Krystof: right. ML is like that 22:27:18 the scary thing is that I have seen papers saying that this is a fundamental problem of the whole machine learning approach 22:27:19 i assume it's more mechanistic, in some sense 22:27:20 Yeah, Im gonna forget trying to apply C++ ideals to it, so thanks for that tip :) 22:27:33 and that's why I've said "erm, wait, isn't it possible to sample from the posterior?" 22:27:33 ideals and C++ ... hehehe 22:27:35 hence my question 22:27:44 Oh, Gigamonkey, Your page sections need links at the bottom of the page -.- 22:27:51 Krystof: that's silly though! Right, this should be exactly what you want to do 22:27:59 if the shape of the distribution is reasonable 22:28:01 the typical set of the posterior is likely to be much more "interesting" than the maximum likelihood sequence 22:28:09 lots of what you'd get should sound interesting 22:28:18 zbrahead91: to what? 22:28:28 Krystof, but not as "interesting" as the shape of the posteriors 22:28:36 The next section 22:28:58 Krystof: ok. crap, i've got a 5:30 meeting. let me think about this and catch you back here as can. 22:29:05 So i dont keep having to go back all the time 22:29:15 dcrawford: you're going to have to explain that, unless it is a reference not to statistical distribution but to anatomy 22:29:19 :) 22:29:23 bingo 22:29:23 salex: fine. E-mail would be better; IRC is sporadic 22:29:27 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-84-44-241-87.netcologne.de] has quit [] 22:29:27 -!- emilbarton [n=eb@66.192.84-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:29:33 stassats`: you still pointed me to it, although I'm not sure if that was your intention. 22:29:40 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o Krystof 22:29:40 And thanks for saying use emacs :P 22:29:42 I will 22:30:20 Yeah. Well, there are only 32 chapters so it's only 63 total clicks to read nearly 500 pages worth of text. 22:30:22 Krystof: good point. Do you have my current co-ordinates? Have yours changed? 22:30:29 it's been a while since we emailed, I think! 22:30:31 night. 22:30:38 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 22:31:57 @gigamonkey dont worry, only something I noticed that annoyed me as I was navigating 22:32:13 It maay be perfectly fine for everyone else :) 22:32:18 gigamonkey, my own unimportant complaint is that you don't have a favicon set, so my bookmark does not stand out as much as I'd like 22:32:19 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:28 Jasko: send me one! 22:32:43 The CLISP Menorah, perhaps? 22:32:50 what, I have to work for my free stuff now? 22:32:55 lol! 22:34:03 freedom never ends... 22:34:57 -!- silenius [n=jl@e178012187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:34:59 @gigamonkeys: Your book is good, I just had to settle down and actually read chapter 3 instead of gibbering at the Weird syntax :D 22:35:18 zbrahead91: cool. 22:35:40 reading and parsing stuff tends to work better than try to build a rhime on the 3 longest words of each sentence 22:35:45 I have read Chaps 1 and 2 before 22:36:01 zbrahead91: you forgot the eval 22:36:04 I tended to skip 3 :/ 22:36:22 lol 22:36:31 This was when DanielRM first got hooked 22:36:41 I nearly got hooked, but I fell asleep :P 22:36:50 don't you know "bless this thy hand grenade" ... "no 2 unless immediately followed by 3" 22:37:13 (set 'nil 3) 22:37:22 Oh god... Limp is beautiful! 22:37:32 BTW Anyone know of a REPL for WM? 22:37:34 but not as beautiful as SLIME :P 22:37:37 Windows Mobile* 22:37:46 Erm, Normal lads say that about girls 22:37:51 Though strangely, the folks who did the original work on LIMP (when it had a different name) abandoned it and went off to use Emacs. IIRC. 22:37:53 and normal girls say that about boys 22:38:06 zbrahead91: you're not normal. Who are you to talk? 22:38:22 Im *more* normal :3 22:38:23 gigamonkey: No, that's not correct. LIMP is a new endeavor by a recent channel newcomer. 22:38:30 Ooops. Sorry. 22:38:31 gigamonkey: bah, they were heretics if so. 22:38:40 tcr: who? 22:38:45 gigamonkey: tic 22:39:01 And what's the line on how long until he gives up and switches to Emacs. ;-) 22:39:10 No REPL for WM? 22:39:12 Oh well 22:39:18 gigamonkey: You're thinking of an earlier attempt by larry clapp; he uses Lispworks now. 22:39:20 im off ot bed and my PDA :3 22:39:28 Thanks god 22:39:56 tcr: yeah, that's the one I was thinking of. I seem to have misremembered all the salient details. 22:40:20 Still, it's a good myth. In the spirit of the current US campaign season, I'm going to keep telling that story. 22:40:22 He uses a heavily customized version of the Lisp editor, from what I read. 22:40:35 Lispworks editor, I mean 22:40:55 Gotta go walk the dog. Later folks. 22:41:31 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:40 Newlisper [n=lqdshado@75-132-41-59.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:47 gigamonkey: speak later oh Lord. 22:41:47 which is better: (apply '+ '(1 2 3)) or (apply #'+ '(1 2 3)) 22:42:03 second 22:42:05 #'+ 22:42:14 one works :) 22:42:24 per clhs both work 22:42:26 timor: In case of CL symbols, it doesn't matter much. 22:42:31 (apply + '(1 2 3)) 22:42:32 doh, true 22:42:34 Strangely, so does '+ in sbcl 22:43:08 it's just a runtime redirection 22:43:12 Newlisper: symbols are function designators; they denote the function of their symbol-function slot 22:44:01 i also thought second one better style, since if one has a namespace for functions, why not use it? but i've seen the first version recently and it confused me 22:44:14 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A278C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 22:44:37 but when i use first one, i can redefine the function globally and it will take effect 22:44:56 so the first one seems to be more like a "pointer" 22:45:16 Quick question from a guy who is trying to dive headfirst into some lisp development -- Should I use mod_lisp, Huchentoot, allegroserve, or some other framework for developing a nice MVC-architected web system? (I asked this on #lispcafe, too, so forgive me for duplications.) 22:45:30 timor: In all likelihood, your implementation will also insert an indirection for the second form, precisely to enable you the possibility of redefinition 22:45:56 Newlisper: You should not develop a web system. 22:46:16 There are plenty good ones out there, try to leverage one of them. 22:47:06 tcr: just checked, sbcl doesnt seem to 22:48:30 tcr: Sorry, I may have misused the term "system". My plan is to write the stuff that creates an HTML page via lisp. An example of what I am looknig for: Catalyst, combined with FastCGI, delivers a MVC-style architecture for perl serving the webpages. One feature that makes it extra nice is when the perl leverages the Template Toolkit, so that you can separate out some of the html/javascript design from the rest of the system. 22:49:00 I have no interest in rewriting apache. :) 22:49:06 uh, what tcr said 22:49:11 so, you want to write web pages. 22:49:38 a web-application-framework? 22:50:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:50:18 Newlisper: please, don't write a web application framework until you're tried all the existing ones and learned a lot of lisp on the way 22:50:23 you've 22:50:30 Newlisper: you just described hunchentoot and cl-who 22:50:41 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:43 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:53 timor: File compilation seems to have an effect here. 22:50:56 timor: manic12_ suggested allegroserve to me, too... can anyone explain the differences? 22:51:36 Newlisper: allegroserve sucks off of allegro lisp, and everybody uses hunchentoot 22:51:38 tcr: that means cmucl and clisp dont, but sbcl does? that can break things 22:51:40 is huchentoot Edi's program? 22:51:52 Newlisper: try both of them, and you'll see which one you prefer. 22:51:52 timor: If you just C-c C-c, the indirection will be inserted even for #'foo, with C-c C-k it won't if the function definition of foo is in the same file, and comes before its reference 22:52:08 manic12_: yes 22:52:09 manic12_: yes, EdiWare(tm) 22:52:47 drewc, what have you against allegro? 22:52:52 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:52:56 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17DCC6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:52:57 manic12_: acl-compat 22:53:08 manic12_: and, nobody uses it anymore.. so why bother? 22:53:17 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17E405.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:19 does it paserve even compile these days? 22:53:34 err .. me grammar some weird. 22:54:27 -!- silenius_ [n=jl@e178012187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:54:27 some of you confuse SBCL with "all of Lisp" 22:54:33 I plan to run sbcl behind everything anyway. ;) I like its compilation, speed, and multithread capabilities. It sounds like Huchentoot might be the way to go. CL-WHO seemed a bit unrefined. 22:54:56 manic12_: i host 30-40 lisp web applications, and i don't think any of them are allegroserve anymore. 22:55:04 Newlisper: define unrefined 22:55:18 if you're using sbcl, that's fine 22:55:19 manic12_: i don't thikn you'll find a better authority on this subject :) 22:55:44 that said, if i was using ACL i'd probably give it a go. 22:56:21 drewc: I didn't bring up "web stuff", I brought up "what is it about allegro that you don't like?" -- and you said acl-compat 22:56:25 timor: From what I read (not used; I am gathering info first) tutorialwise, it looked like it was too close to the surface. Some things are common and should be abstracted. 22:56:33 my stuff is pretty abstract in the backend having gone from paserve->araneida->mod-lisp->customhttpd->hunchentoot 22:56:49 manic12_: i have nothing against allegro, we were discussing allegroserve 22:58:24 Newlisper: interesting, like what? 22:58:27 I guess I just didn't like the way you phrased "acl compatibility" as "sucks off of" 22:58:42 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:07 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:22 it's just awefully biased 22:59:26 He was just saying that aserve works well only on Allegro CL. 22:59:38 nevermind 22:59:55 manic12_: what he said, and yes, i'm biased towards working solutions. 23:00:26 working solutions or *free* working solutions 23:00:27 Newlisper: i found that an interesting read: http://web.telia.com/~u43518104/articles/lispweb.htm 23:00:33 Krystof: still around? 23:01:43 if the sbcl ran on win x64 I would be an sbcl person too 23:01:57 manic12_: i never said a word about SBCL, wtf are you ranting about? 23:02:04 webs3 annotated #68102 with "webeconomy3.lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68102#1 23:02:08 Zen_Clark [n=user@99-136-80-191.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:10 you did say acl-compat 23:03:00 manic12_: all i said was that allegro serve is a terrible platform when not used with ACL. 23:03:26 timor: Taking a second glance to refresh my memory... Yeah, I am not interested in creating webpages directly via lisp (replacing HTML language with lisp language, as it were). I am looking for something that reacts to incoming requests and packages those up nicely for me. That said, it looks like an interesting way to approach the page creation... but I have a preference for something like LSP (http://lemonodor.com/archives/0001 23:03:32 manic12_: this comes from a long experience in attempting to do so, and supporting a vast array of uses who do similar work to what i do. 23:03:37 timor: Thank you for the reference; I will take a look. 23:03:54 manic12_: if you want to push an anti-sbcl agenda, don't twist my words to do so ;) 23:04:11 drewc: I'll try huchentoot then when I get time for web hacking 23:04:38 I'm not anti-sbcl, but I am pro-allegro 23:05:21 but I don't say things like "huchentoot sucks off of sbcl" 23:05:24 manic12_: good, but what do you know about web programming .. the topic at hand before you went off? 23:05:56 drewc, I was a web programmer from about 1998 through 200... something 23:06:06 timor: The only thing about lsp is its tight binding to AllegroServe; it should have returned a string that represented the changed HTML page instead of directly sending it to the server. 23:06:07 manic12_: because it doesn't? you can't honestly tell me the paserve+ acl-compat is a good solution for web development. 23:06:18 manic12_: In Common lisp? 23:06:45 is it absolutely out of the question flat-out to *get allegro* ?? 23:06:50 timor: (a string or somesuch other structure) 23:06:51 cause in 2003, when i did my first lisp web app, paserve was a reasonable solution, and i in fact recommended it. 23:07:26 manic12_: i have allegro and have used it .. what 23:07:33 you're point exactly? 23:07:39 what is* 23:07:42 your 23:07:44 damnit 23:07:50 is it bad to steer newbies that direction? 23:07:51 *drewc* is doing way to mauch at once. 23:07:54 muchg 23:07:58 much 23:08:00 :( 23:08:15 yes, let's steer newbies to crippleware! 23:08:46 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:08:47 jsnell: where did you come up with that one? 23:08:55 manic12_: this is not about the bloody implementation.. it's about a webserver. I'd suggest a newbie use hunchentoot with ACL ffs 23:08:55 Newlisper: http://www.cliki.net/Hunchentoot LSP ? 23:09:08 angelixd [n=pcmantz@adsl-68-72-131-232.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:21 Newlisper: the 'lsp' idea is about 3 lins of lisp to implement yourself. 23:09:39 i dont like the interface of LSP 23:09:41 Newlisper: it's also 'the wrong way' to do things IMO. maybe manic12_ disagrees. 23:09:43 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:10:08 While we are pondering web stuff, I have another question I will need to resolve... Is there a recommended ORM or object-like interface to a backend database available? 23:10:10 what do I maybe disagree with? 23:10:15 i think every wep-app is special enough to deserve its own abstractions 23:10:24 Newlisper: use postmodern + postgres 23:10:44 Newlisper: unless you want a real object db and not orm. 23:10:50 Newlisper: Allegroserv + Allegrocache (or huchentoot + allegrocache) 23:11:02 drewc: I do not understand; separating presentation from the code that creates the presentation, as much as possible, is very beneficial in a group with mixed skill levels. 23:12:08 drewc: What would be a preferable way to generate a page? (Not intended to be a loaded question... pages vary in complexity. :)) 23:12:11 Newlisper: http://www.cliki.net/Elephant 23:12:12 manic12_: doesn't the acl "express edition" (nee trial version) have a tiny heap limit, and require periodic license updates? 23:12:36 Newlisper: I use yaclml and generate very simple html code that i style via CSS. 23:12:47 jsnell: I dunno, I don't use it 23:12:50 at least I would consider that to be pretty crippled as far as language implementation go 23:13:05 timor: Copying links for reading. Thanks again. 23:13:20 Newlisper: it's a lot cleaner than mixing lisp and html and javascript and sql in a big soup.. 23:13:21 I wouldn't recommend "express edition" 23:13:23 ah, good luck steering newbies to something that costs an arm and leg, then 23:13:30 i just use lisp to generate these :) 23:13:31 unless you're just experimenting 23:13:43 whenever I've had the urge to test code in ACL, I seldom get past "oops, my license expired again" 23:13:53 Newlisper: you will eventually come around to this way of thinking yourself .. i'd bet on it :) 23:14:04 (assuming you stick with lisp) 23:14:07 hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 23:14:15 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:22 so what am I, a paradox? 23:14:25 we are at _free_node 23:14:40 hmm... is there a prettier way to handle lambdaing over a list of pairs that doesn't involve first/second-ing every element? (like, something like loop where you can do for (a b) in list) 23:15:05 on list by #'cddr 23:15:08 now, don't take this as a knock on franz. they do what they have to do to survive in the cruel world of selling programming language implementations 23:15:11 Tordek: how about (loop for (a b) on list by #'cdr) 23:15:12 Tordek: destructuring-bind 23:15:28 oh 23:15:34 Tordek: oh, missed the question in there, sorry. 23:15:41 i think adeht got it right 23:15:43 drewc: I was trying to use lambdas with no loops, if possible 23:15:43 jsnell: they are actively moving in the direction of being a database company 23:15:51 -!- jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:01 Tordek: why? :) 23:16:02 (otherwhise, yeah, i'd loop for (a b)...) 23:16:03 drewc: Heheh, I am not religious in my like of LSP. :) I will be looking at the various techniques to see what makes a decent fit. 23:16:04 but I honestly doubt that there are that many newbies who are willing to pay $$$ up front + royalties on deployment 23:16:10 Tordek: why? ooc. 23:16:12 Thank you all for suggestions. 23:16:26 Newlisper: PCL has a few chapters on web stuff that are very good. 23:16:28 And yes, I've avoided Franz if for nothing else but that there is money involved. 23:16:30 no particular reason, it looks a bit nicer to me 23:17:29 Tordek: are you using the Y combinator or something? because there is no way using just lambdas can look nice in that sense... 23:18:02 franz people have always been super-helpful to me in my process of learning more and more lisp 23:18:34 loop over lambda? 23:18:43 manic12_: i'm super helpful to my paying customers as well. 23:18:49 manic12_: it's a hard sell, though: everyone expects devtools to be free these days. 23:18:50 that's nice manic12_. It really isn't a very practical option for the typical newbie who ends up here. Probably not for the typical newbie. 23:18:52 lemme do a paste... 23:18:55 drewc: I don't pay them. 23:19:10 manic12_: you are using the express edition? 23:19:32 no, the enterprise or whatever it is called 23:19:35 or they are taking royalties? I was under the impression that allegro was a business. 23:19:50 Tordek pasted "Lambdas vs Loop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68135 23:19:50 franz even. 23:20:20 manic12_: there are certainly situations where acl makes sense, maybe compelling sense. But as a place to start? 23:20:24 churches are businesses, healthcare is a business 23:20:55 manic12_: he was pointing out that you were, in fact paying them. Unless you pirated acl, I mean. 23:20:58 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:21:05 you may have prepaid, but you paid :) 23:21:10 I was playing the other night with building a looping construct out of lambda, funcall, and the multiple value operators, curious to see how well SBCL could optimize it when I inlined everything. It did okay, but it couldn't optimize away the multiple value stuff. 23:21:29 I'm not pirating either 23:21:48 ok. so you paid. or someone did for you. can we move on now? 23:21:50 manic12_: are you purposely being obtuse? 23:21:59 drewc: that's the code 23:22:01 isn't it fun when people act all cryptic and then pretend you're stupid for not understanding what they're saying? 23:22:03 drewc: Is there a mysqlmodern? 23:22:04 Tordek: looks buggy 23:22:04 manic12_: cause it's annoying as hell. 23:22:09 drewc: I guess I am :| 23:22:17 adeht: it's not been totally checked yet 23:22:19 Newlisper: no, if you've come all the way to lisp, please use a real database! 23:22:34 Newlisper: j/k.. clsql works with mysql 23:22:36 drewc: :) 23:22:37 a non-lisp database? 23:22:39 but please, don't. 23:23:05 Well, I've been curious about erlang's mnesia and hoping that there was something similar in the lisp world. 23:23:07 -!- rpg__ [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:23:15 Tordek: in any case, loop has a `summing x into y' clause that you might want to check, and also a `return z' clause. 23:23:20 Newlisper: check out rucksack, which is my new favorite toy. 23:23:39 there is also elephant and the bknr-datastore, which are different approaches 23:23:50 minion: rucksack? 23:23:50 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``rucksack''. 23:23:53 gah? 23:24:04 minion: elephant? 23:24:04 elephant: Elephant is a LLGPLed portable object database based on Sleepycat (Berkeley DB) or relational databases. http://www.cliki.net/elephant 23:24:10 minion: bknr 23:24:10 bknr: bknr is an object datastore, a template system, a web framework and support for images, blogs, billboards, etc. http://www.cliki.net/bknr 23:24:12 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-111.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:24:23 cods_ [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:27 Newlisper: actually .. bknr might be just the thing you are looking for :) 23:24:45 adeht: yeah, the return wouldn't make that much of a difference anyway, would it? 23:24:49 newlisper: allegrocache is fun, you should try it as well 23:24:52 and thanks for the summing thing 23:25:07 (incf (incf bknr)) 23:25:14 Tordek: you probably don't mean "for total = 0" 23:25:15 <``Erik> the bknr journal thing looks neat 23:25:38 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:25:53 salex: no, but thanks to adeht now I see I can use summing v into total 23:26:07 drewc: Does postgres handle transactions yet? 23:26:15 yet? 23:26:18 heh 23:26:28 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:30 Tordek:both versions are buggy, btw 23:26:46 <``Erik> hasn't postgres always? mysql was the retarded child for that stuff, I thought? :) 23:26:47 salex: I figured, I haven't tested them 23:26:50 Tordek: it indeed wouldn't make much of a difference right now - the function would still look buggy :) 23:26:51 Does postgres have the ability to *not* have transactional integrity yet? :) 23:26:51 methinks transactions were implemented in the first LISP implementation of POSTGRES some 20 odd years ago. 23:27:18 indeed it's mysql which lacked them for almost forever 23:27:18 Tordek: what are you actually trying to do with those, sample from a list with weights? 23:27:28 Doh, did I get those two confused? Shaaame... 23:27:30 Tordek annotated #68135 with "summing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68135#1 23:27:32 spiderbyte [n=spiderby@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 23:27:37 -!- fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 23:28:05 foom: you can, however, violate constraints by abusing postgres's OO features (hello generic functions and inheritance!) 23:28:38 Tordek: iow, you are assuming all the p's sum to one? 23:28:53 salex: not particularily, no 23:28:57 Gast_946_ [n=Gast_946@dslb-088-068-113-094.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:59 Bitte spendet mir was, hab grad erst neu angefangen. Brauche jeden Cent um mir ein Bier zu holen!!! http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7842526/ 23:29:02 Bitte spendet mir was, hab grad erst neu angefangen. Brauche jeden Cent um mir ein Bier zu holen!!! http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7842526/ 23:29:02 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 23:29:05 Bitte spendet mir was, hab grad erst neu angefangen. Brauche jeden Cent um mir ein Bier zu holen!!! http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7842526/ 23:29:08 -!- Gast_946_ [n=Gast_946@dslb-088-068-113-094.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 23:29:22 freenode seems to be getting a lot more spammy lately 23:29:22 Wow, do those guys show up often? 23:29:56 minion needs a spam filter. 23:30:29 -!- Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:30:43 anything I could do about (let ((word)))? (which, yeah, is missing a parentheses) 23:31:04 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:31:25 Tordek: `with x = y' 23:32:20 zpiro [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 23:32:36 Tordek: but it is likely that to solve your problem you don't need that, or any assignment really 23:32:48 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-43-247.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 23:33:02 Zen_Clar` [n=user@99-136-80-191.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:20 Tordek: sorry, I meant v's. Your variable naming is confusing, there. 23:33:45 salex: no, weights are integers 1+ 23:34:17 (the <= may be wrong but that's not my concern right now) 23:34:56 Tordek: ok, back up. What are you actually trying to achieve? 23:35:19 and are (a b) pairs really the data structure you'll want? 23:35:23 getting a weighted random element from a list of pairs of (element weight) 23:35:58 drewc: Okay, object datastore is probably not what I am looking for (although I may use it in some other areas). Are there any "pure" (as in fairly close) relational model packages out there, similar to the style of Tutorial D? Yeah, I've been reading a bit of CJ Date lately. ;) 23:36:00 (a b) or (a . b); it's always pairs. 23:36:02 ok. first off, you'll have to either sum to total first or (probably better) normalize thme 23:36:27 so weights already sum to 1 (and rescale elsewhere, as needed) 23:36:51 Newlisper: not that i'm aware of. that said, it would be a fun project. 23:37:04 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-99.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:10 salex: no, it's not necessary. you can choose a random (non-weighed) element from a list by transversting the list only once: 23:37:38 drewc: I agree... although I am not sure I am yet up to the task of coming up with a full DBMS that would be optimized to support that kind of interface. 23:37:46 oh, hang on, your sample isn't supposed to be according to the weights? 23:37:49 generate a random number between 1 and the position of the element, and if it is equal to 1, then replace the stored selected element with the current one 23:37:54 drewc: Thanks anyway. 23:38:31 newlisper: allegrocache will get you farther faster, you should call franz and ask about it 23:38:33 I did some maths and it applies when you replace 1 for the weight of the element, and the position for the sum of weights. 23:38:38 Newlisper: fair enough. have a look at rucksack, it integrates well/ 23:38:55 neat trick for selecting in O(n) single-pass 23:39:22 -!- Newlisper [n=lqdshado@75-132-41-59.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit ["Time to get back to reading."] 23:39:22 -!- angelixd [n=pcmantz@adsl-68-72-131-232.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:42:10 ok, your notation was confusing i guess. `neat trick' == `expensive' here, compared to the usual way of doing these things... 23:43:33 hmm, fair enough, I guess it's easier to go through a list twice than generating (length list) random numbers 23:44:04 yes. but also, it's easier to maintaing normalized weights 23:44:15 (usually, depends on exactly what you're doing) 23:44:27 what happens when an item has zero weight? 23:44:38 it floats 23:44:43 sorry 23:44:52 anyone use ecl much? 23:45:33 adeht: that may or may not make sense. also, often you'll use the CDF in practice. 23:45:36 well, no, in this case I don't think so; I get the sum of weights, generate a random, and then I (loop for (e w) in list summing w into p until p >= random return e) 23:46:20 then whenever I modify a weight I only change that one 23:46:28 right 23:46:45 adeht: no item has 0 weight: it can't be decreased, only increased 23:46:46 so it really depends exactly how you use things which is faster 23:46:48 salex: right, that's one reason why I said it "looks" buggy.. I don't know the intention 23:46:56 -!- Zen_Clark [n=user@99-136-80-191.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:47:19 Tordek: depending, it may make sense to maintain two lists also 23:47:34 rather than always desctructuring. 23:47:42 again, depends. 23:48:03 it's not time-critical, in this case, but thanks 23:48:34 oh, i meant for code clarity, not time 23:49:19 hmm, I see 23:50:26 -!- hugopt is now known as hugo 23:50:34 (loop with x = (random 2)) sets x only once, right? 23:50:46 No. 23:51:15 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-066-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51:25 Sorry, I mean yes. 23:51:52 heh. yes, Tordek you can get rid of your let's around loops like that. 23:54:14 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:15 Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:54:28 The equivalent of (let ((x (random 2))) body), no? 23:55:08 In the above case, (let ((x (random 2))) (loop)) 23:55:19 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-17-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:47 (let ((x (random 2))) body) == (loop with x = (random 2) repeat 1 do body) 23:56:08 or (loop with x = (random 2) do (print x) (return)) 23:56:12 Ah, that makes sense. 23:56:17 (let ((x (random 2))) body) == (loop with x = (random 2) named (gensym) repeat 1 finally (return (progn body))) more exactly. 23:56:34 oh, yes 23:57:19 what if body contains declarations? :) 23:57:42 (starts with some) 23:57:54 yes, and if there's a surrounding block named nil it won't work either. 23:58:21 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-43-247.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:58:28 (loop named #1=#.(gensym) with x = (random 2) repeat 1 finally (return-from #1# (locally body))) 23:59:16 ((lambda (x) (print x)) (random 2)) 23:59:16 doesn't that lose m-v? 23:59:33 locally or progn don't. 23:59:47 salex annotated #68135 with "something like this, perhaps" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68135#2 23:59:50 ah, right. 23:59:53 if you wanted to loop it