00:01:54 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D683.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:03:53 alright so, how do I increase the stack size for slime's lisp? 00:03:58 with sbcl 00:04:34 % sbcl --help |grep stack => --control-stack-size Size of reserved control stack in megabytes. 00:05:25 hm 00:05:36 thanks 00:05:52 I'm guessing I just change inferior-lisp-program to include the path-to-sbcl with that option? 00:06:09 yep 00:07:05 but why do you need it? do you have a deep recursion? 00:07:12 fegw [n=fegw@netblock-68-183-237-105.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:23 no, I have WAY too much shit loaded into memory and it's choking on itself 00:07:42 it kinda croaks at about 500M of RES (tried creating all the objects again, it died) 00:07:45 does anyone use mysql with lisp in here? 00:08:04 sykopomp: 500M on stack? 00:08:11 oh gah 00:08:14 the HEAP 00:08:14 ;_; 00:08:15 especially with unicode. mysql or postgresql 00:08:22 not the stack. gruh... sorry 00:08:28 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:08:33 fegw: are you asking about cl-sql, or are you looking for something like it? 00:08:51 sykopomp: then --dynamic-space-size option 00:09:35 sykopomp: I already know about clsql. I'm just really curious about unicode in sql database and file. 00:11:10 in sbcl. (map 'list 'char-code "°¡") --> (44032) 00:11:53 but, I save the same character in clsql wiht postgresql, and then.. 00:12:00 Joreji [n=user@u-5-061.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:12:53 fegw: is that one characther or my irc-client decomposed it? 00:12:57 I retrieve it, the result is (map 'list 'char-code *from-database-value*) --> (234 176 128) 00:13:27 I can show the real charater. it is from here http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/unicode/inx/tituac00.htm 00:13:30 first line 00:13:39 UTF8: 234, 176, 128; UNICODE: AC0 °¡ 00:13:43 Unless you can fiddle with the encoding settings everywhere, your best bet is probably to work with octets everywhere and encode/decode explicitly. 00:13:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:14:45 (well, everywhere... at the borders) 00:14:54 fegw: i see it like degree sign and spanish reversed exclamation mark 00:16:30 -!- Joreji [n=user@u-5-061.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has left #lisp 00:16:31 fegw: is the table defined to be utf-8? 00:16:36 yes 00:16:40 ah, right 00:17:33 but if the db expects input as 1 byte/char... 00:17:35 just a moment, i'll prepare it to ask question better.. 00:19:20 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:42 clsql manages unicode with MySQL properly, certainly 00:22:57 teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-059-008.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:57 (if it's told to; I think there was some setting or other) 00:24:51 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:36 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:30:51 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:39 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:26 -!- teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-059-008.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:38:03 mejja [n=user@213.114.36.125] has joined #lisp 00:41:18 -!- fegw [n=fegw@netblock-68-183-237-105.dslextreme.com] has quit [] 00:41:57 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.15.80] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:42:36 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-038-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:10 felzi1 [n=felzix@adsl-69-232-239-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:35 -!- ths [n=ths@port-212-202-236-178.static.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:47:07 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119114112.chello.sk] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:48:24 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:48:35 H4nsX: I wonder if the non-dying thread problems are related to these messages: 00:48:44 2008-10-04 16:36:14 [ERROR]] Error while processing connection: I/O timeout reading #. 00:50:13 possibly the client dying while still sending its request? 00:51:15 no, too many of them for that 00:51:25 they'd tend to build up 00:51:35 don't think there's a timeout at all on most platforms 00:51:59 (a timeout on reading the stream, that is) 00:52:16 scottj_ [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has joined #lisp 00:52:27 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:53:43 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:04 felzi2 [n=felzix@adsl-69-232-239-60.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:23 I've noticed it happening very occasionally 00:55:41 I have a thread which kills anything that's been hanging around too long periodically 00:56:55 what's going on here? http://paste.lisp.org/display/67947#1 .. huge difference in time .. is it the overhead of passing the keyarg ? 00:57:13 i might have missed something .. extremely tired over here.. heh 00:58:00 lnostdal: = accepts arbitrary count of arguments, while eq only to 00:58:02 *two 00:58:04 -!- felzix [n=felzix@adsl-69-232-224-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:07 *eql 00:58:12 george_ [n=george@189.107.153.249] has joined #lisp 00:58:36 hmok 00:58:53 lnostdal: try to test with (defun =* (a b) (= a b)) 00:58:54 is remove-duplicates clever enough to know that? 00:59:12 yeah, :test #'eql gives same fast result .. so it's not the keyarg 01:00:40 just about the same result, stassats .. at least with a flet .. don't think that should matter though 01:01:03 (i meant slow result this time) 01:01:19 i wonder if it's easy to fix this ..hm 01:02:18 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A26D25.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 01:03:07 3-times faster for me with =*, but still slower than eql 01:04:10 stassats: eql gets inlined, =* not, unless you delaim it inline 01:04:14 -!- scottj [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:23 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:04:26 do that with a lambda. (or wait for tcr's patch) 01:04:29 -!- felzi1 [n=felzix@adsl-69-232-239-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:43 is it possible for sbcl to derive that the test function for remove-duplicates, or reduce, etc., needs only two arguments? 01:07:20 i think it does in some cases, but might be harder when it is "passed around" instead of used directly 01:07:30 stassats: yes, but it doesn't do that right now. 01:08:30 just add (sb-ext:=* x y) .. there .. fixed .. .. haha :) 01:09:53 felzix [n=felzix@adsl-69-232-228-3.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:41 dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 01:12:23 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:13:01 felzi1 [n=felzix@69.232.232.65] has joined #lisp 01:13:21 -!- felzix [n=felzix@adsl-69-232-228-3.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:18:09 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:27 -!- george [n=george@189.107.186.203] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:23:49 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAE7EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:24:10 -!- felzi2 [n=felzix@adsl-69-232-239-60.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:22 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 01:42:37 ok, well mcclim works on this box with 1.0.20.3 01:42:37 time to upgrade and see if it breaks... 01:43:22 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:43:34 felzix [n=felzix@adsl-69-232-234-163.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:12 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 01:49:51 JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:06 xenoterracide [n=xenoterr@76.20.167.242] has joined #lisp 01:54:55 ok, and it works with current sbcl. looks like the problem must be in mcclim. 01:55:22 what's the problem? 01:56:00 -!- felzi1 [n=felzix@69.232.232.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:07 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:00:31 -!- trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-192-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:31 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c121h014.wless.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 02:03:37 is there any book to learn c++ for lisp users ? 02:05:03 kebomix_ [n=ahmed@41.233.44.76] has joined #lisp 02:05:05 why bother? 02:05:13 Free Programming ebooks With Direct Links Here http://request-ebooks.blogspot.com/ 02:06:11 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:06:46 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 02:07:26 weirdo: I find it important to know other languages, even if I have no desire to use them. Usually, there's something to learn, even if most of it feels ugh. 02:07:37 madmax [n=madmax@unaffiliated/madmax] has joined #lisp 02:08:23 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.15.80] has joined #lisp 02:08:32 -!- madmax [n=madmax@unaffiliated/madmax] has left #lisp 02:08:35 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.15.80] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:09:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 02:09:52 -!- kebomix_ [n=ahmed@41.233.44.76] has left #lisp 02:14:22 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 02:14:23 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@192.117.29.140.static.012.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:16:50 haha. slime does -not- like printing out a 1mil-cons-cell list. 02:16:51 :3 02:17:05 and it hates it a lot more when someone tries to C-c C-c in the middle of it. 02:17:38 blame emacs 02:17:55 you're right. slime is holy. :P 02:18:03 (I think it's better to blame myself for being a bad user) 02:19:49 blame yourself for not writing a better emacs 02:20:03 *sykopomp* cries 02:20:20 I should blame myself for being stubborn and insisting on stress-testing something I'm not familiar with ;P 02:21:16 it's important to decide who and for what to blame 02:21:26 ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-65-26-178-248.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:03 birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 02:23:32 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:24:32 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:46 mwaldman_ [n=chatzill@dynamic-oit-vapornet-a-2337.Princeton.EDU] has joined #lisp 02:33:13 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-133-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:34:13 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:36:32 -!- MHOOO [n=yeh@u-5-061.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:32 hi, I want to use mapcar but also pass the index in the list of the current item to the function I'm mapping to. I've been using dotimes and just iterating over it, but I feel like there has to be a better way with mapcar. 02:38:09 *Renatobico* está away.. [fora] [t7DS: pager/on, logging/on] 02:39:00 (loop for i in mylist for j from 0 collect (your function i j)) 02:39:52 thanks 02:41:32 don't think you can do it with mapcar 02:41:40 alright 02:43:40 (let ((index 0)) (mapcar #'(lambda (item) (incf index) )) list)) 02:44:34 Or maybe (mapcar #'(lambda (item index) ) item (iota (length list))), where (iota n) generates a list from 0 to n-1. 02:45:00 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-19-214.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 02:45:48 ooh, that's evil :) 02:46:10 No one said it had to be pretty. 02:46:54 Or, if you use series, (collect (#M (scan list) (scan-range :from 0))) 03:04:37 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:08:12 -!- fihi09``` [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:16:20 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:55 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:18:24 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:41:20 She pasted "ATP" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67951 03:46:32 -!- msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.dynamic.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:47:16 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:47 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:31 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-53-199.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:49 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:51:19 -!- scottj_ [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:56:16 SYKOSOMATIC> (length (store-objects-with-class ')) 03:56:16 3087562 03:57:31 RES: 992M (and going down with GC), and access is still fast. 03:57:48 H4nsX: guess I'm sticking with this. I can't give you enough kudos for such a good job :P 03:58:56 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:01:35 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:47 -!- lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:03:07 lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:13 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:05:01 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF4D70.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:20 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:07 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:07 *Renatobico* está de volta... [t7DS: - fora: 1hr 34min] 04:13:51 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:18:22 -!- felzix [n=felzix@adsl-69-232-234-163.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 04:22:50 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:26:27 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c121h014.wless.reed.edu] has quit [] 04:31:14 -!- Renatobico [i=t7DS@nbru03-1117.dial.bru.embratel.net.br] has quit ["The 7 Deadly Sins: faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive   [www.t7ds.com.br]"] 04:32:59 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:38:04 good morning 04:40:08 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c121h014.wless.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 04:43:08 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:43:17 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.90.66] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:44:27 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:03 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 04:55:46 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:56:01 -!- mld [n=user@cekyrij.olf.sgsnet.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:03 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:06:57 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:28 spacebat [n=akhasha@124-171-93-244.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:10:44 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@210-20-92-190.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit ["bye"] 05:16:01 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-53-199.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:17:54 abend_ [n=sasha@sub26-151.member.dsl-only.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:17 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:22:26 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:23:00 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:26:01 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:34:14 -!- abend [n=sasha@sub26-151.member.dsl-only.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:43 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:36 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 05:48:58 Hrm. What now. 05:49:03 Morning beach. 05:49:10 hey tic 05:49:24 *tic* got up slightly too early. 05:49:51 vmaciel [n=vmaciel@200.251.4.237] has joined #lisp 06:01:51 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c121h014.wless.reed.edu] has quit [] 06:07:00 aja [n=aja@68.151.58.116] has joined #lisp 06:07:35 vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 06:11:15 Is She from ITA? 06:16:11 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:16:19 *beach* goes to the market to buy food. 06:20:05 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:22 what does "single pass compiler" mean? 06:29:42 it just does one pass in converting a source file into an object file? or so 06:29:47 maybe... 06:31:56 wolfboy23 [i=baumgold@tithonus.cs.brandeis.edu] has joined #lisp 06:44:43 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@196.0.0.197] has joined #lisp 06:45:04 -!- mejja [n=user@213.114.36.125] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:46:06 Hi. How to iterate over a SEQUENCE type? Understandably, CONS/CDR doesn't work on SEQUENCE types, only on LISTP. So, how do I iterate over a SEQUENCE? 06:46:34 loop across? 06:46:49 -!- mwaldman_ [n=chatzill@dynamic-oit-vapornet-a-2337.Princeton.EDU] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 06:47:04 mapcar? 06:47:09 I know it works for vectors anyways - could be bad advice but I know loop would have a term for use with sequences 06:47:09 oh wait, sequence 06:47:11 yeah, loop 06:47:21 there's various keywords for loop 06:47:26 but across is for vectors, yes 06:47:27 in for list 06:47:32 across for vectors 06:47:40 I wonder what's the term for seqs 06:47:48 possibly on 06:47:52 I can't remember. 06:47:54 clhs loop 06:47:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 06:48:26 I tend to recurse rather than loop. So ... there is no other way to run over SEQUENCEs, outside using LOOP? 06:48:34 there is none that works for sequences 06:48:43 clhs map 06:48:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map.htm 06:49:07 when I loop on a list I get successive cdrs 06:49:55 LeCamarade: a silly habit better to get rid of earlier than later, at least in the context of CL 06:50:22 Okay, I'll start looping, then. 06:50:57 I tend to prefer recursion, though. FP is my dirty secret, you see. :o) 06:51:00 I didn't say that :) There are other iteration constructs, too. Use the appropriate one. Sometimes it's loop. 06:51:38 Yeah, but LOOP is quite powerful, I think it is unwise to throw all that power away for the sake of prejudice. 06:51:47 sure 06:52:14 if map works for sequences, then a macro could turn its body into the lambda used in a map 06:52:40 spacebat: go right ahead :) 06:52:42 -!- wolfboy22 [i=baumgold@129.64.3.81] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:53:04 What's the eval bot in here called, again? 06:53:11 there is none 06:54:02 LeCamarade: if you want to stay "functional", you might like SERIES 06:54:15 <_YKY_> Can I get a pointer to an arbitrary object in lisp? 06:54:42 *LeCamarade* wishes she had her Lisp system here; 'tis at home. 06:55:15 _YKY_: what do you want to do? 06:55:26 Me lordy, should be nice to have an eval bot in here. Connected to an SBCL proc (with the error messages tamed, to save the logs). 06:55:26 <_YKY_> Change the element of a list 06:56:17 _YKY_, a member at CAR, or at a random position? 06:56:27 <_YKY_> It's at car 06:56:34 LeCamarade: spamming the channel? 06:56:56 _YKY_: (setf (car your-list) 42) 06:57:18 michaelw, Yes, SBCL barks at you when you do wrong. Writes a Nastygram, literally. 06:57:56 _YKY_, then SETF and AREF should suffice. 06:57:58 LeCamarade: that'd be quite terrible, in particular with SBCL's verbosity 06:58:01 <_YKY_> In the loop... I only have the car of the list 06:58:13 <_YKY_> I already obtained the car =( 06:58:28 _YKY_: then you need to do it differently 06:58:44 <_YKY_> I see.... 06:59:34 _YKY_: (loop with list = (list 1 2 3 4 5) for rest on list do (setf (car rest) 42) finally (return list)) 06:59:39 Maybe turn into a random-access data structure (vector, array, &c), and then loop with a number. 06:59:56 michaelw, Ah. :o) 07:00:10 <_YKY_> Thanks =) 07:00:54 you might want to think about (mapcar (lambda (x) (declare (ignore x)) 42) (list 1 2 3 4 5)), though 07:01:44 or, if you really want the destructive updates: (let ((list (list 1 2 3 4 5))) (map-into list (lambda (x) (declare (ignore x)) 42) list)) 07:02:48 here's a quick stab: (defmacro iterseq (var seq &rest body) `(map nil (lambda (,var) ,@body) ,seq)) 07:03:24 spacebat: s/&rest/&body/ 07:03:38 of course :) 07:03:54 and I'd probably call it dosequence 07:04:16 seems weird that its not in CL somewhere already 07:05:28 and then I would look at alexandria and see that they have dosequence already ;) 07:06:03 so is there a more or less agreed on way to push the CL standard forward? 07:06:39 I know that typical standardization processes are too slow and expensive 07:07:10 hurr, the implementation is slightly more complex than I expected... 07:09:02 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #lisp 07:11:25 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has joined #lisp 07:12:28 michaelw: i expect most implementations have something like that already, internally 07:13:22 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-96.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:14:34 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 07:19:14 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:24:24 (loop for x being the elements of sequence do ...) 07:24:28 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.129.215] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:24:37 ; requires forward-thinking implementation of lisp 07:26:38 FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:27:40 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 07:29:02 -!- JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:34:40 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2C101.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:55 -!- aja [n=aja@68.151.58.116] has quit [Client Quit] 07:45:05 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:50:03 michaelw: or (mapcar (constantly 42) (list 1 2 3 4 5)) or just: (make-list (length (list 1 2 3 4 5)) :initial-element 42) 07:52:04 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 07:54:55 done [n=done@p5790B394.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:29 -!- done [n=done@p5790B394.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:56:13 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:58:17 loop repeat ... collect 42! 07:58:29 :_) 08:00:54 -!- FufieToo is now known as Fufie 08:03:10 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ec61f67bbe936a90] has joined #lisp 08:03:16 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 08:03:19 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-205-104-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:05:15 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:25 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-214-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:12:19 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.206.63] has joined #lisp 08:15:54 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:02 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:21:24 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.206.63] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:23:51 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 08:32:21 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 08:34:20 lyte_ [n=lyte@60-242-109-30.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:34:31 hitguy [i=hitguy@119.129.237.70] has joined #lisp 08:35:46 -!- vmaciel [n=vmaciel@200.251.4.237] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:42:58 -!- lyte_ [n=lyte@60-242-109-30.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:44:24 wolfboy22 [i=baumgold@tithonus.cs.brandeis.edu] has joined #lisp 08:44:55 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:45:01 tja _zenon_. 08:45:01 -!- hitguy [i=hitguy@119.129.237.70] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:45:22 <_zenon_> tic, tjabba 08:45:51 <_zenon_> tic, har du upplevt någon storm som dom sa i radio/nyheterna? 08:46:05 <_zenon_> tic, jag ser bara regn regn regn, men ingen vind =/ 08:46:06 _zenon_, not really, except for the rain. 08:46:23 _zenon_, (off-topic talk in private messages, #lisp in English) 08:46:42 *_zenon_* apologizes 08:46:51 'sok, I started. :) 08:47:51 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:50:53 Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF6816.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:17 ths [n=ths@port-212-202-236-178.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:53:36 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:55:39 flight16 [n=flight16@p4062-ipbf1810marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:55:43 yo 08:55:51 hello flight16 08:56:02 deafmacro [n=user@61.12.19.50] has joined #lisp 08:56:18 Higher Order Perl Programming said that perl shares 6 of the 7 features that make lisp unique... including things like closures. So it resembles lisp mor ethan it does c 08:56:49 I'm not trolling. All I know about lisp was 7 years ago in a cs1101 class when we used scheme. 08:57:24 Fascinating. 08:57:29 Is lisp a good scripting language for data munging? ie. can it be as short as perl? 08:57:43 so, what it doesn't share is macros and homoiconicity 08:57:53 flight16: I suggest you learn it and decide for yourself. 08:58:04 flight16: depends... common lisp tends to be pretty wordy 08:58:07 flight16: if you want short unreadable names, you might like Arc 08:58:09 I plan to eventually. I haven't had much free time to sit down and play with it 08:58:21 but it also looks less like line noise and has less of a POSIX mindset 08:58:25 michaelw: just because I mentioned perl doesn't mean I code like a perl hacker! 08:58:51 my day job is perl 08:59:02 flight16: you asked for "as short as perl" 08:59:09 I assume there are standard libraries for things like hashes and lists and sorting? In the scheme class I took many years ago they never entioned any of that... and we made all data structures ourself out of cad and cdr 08:59:12 most things that make it worthwhile are indeed taken from lisp 08:59:29 flight16: there are 08:59:29 spacebat: same... with some c++ 08:59:51 flight16: but did you write car and cdr yourself using function definition :) 09:00:12 I'm just worried I'll lose things like nice json/yaml/network libraries if I use lisp. 09:00:18 haha.. uh.. no 09:00:22 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 09:00:29 is it possible to "prune" printing of array elements ? eg, (print (list (make-array 1000))) , prints "#" 09:00:30 and did you implement function definition...... somehow :) 09:00:45 lhz: set *print-array* to nil 09:01:02 michaelw: thanks :) 09:01:18 can I make lisp program my problem for me 09:01:23 lhz: note that this does not affect strings and bit vectors 09:01:24 if it's a programmable programming language 09:01:46 flight16: lisp does not magically solve problems for you 09:01:50 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:01:58 aw... 09:02:09 michaelw: ah, because vector is "super" of array ? 09:02:41 flight16: lisp is definitely worth learning 09:03:11 perl has its place but it comes nowhere near the metaprogrammability of lisp 09:03:39 *spacebat* scores today's multisyllabic prize 09:03:47 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:04:12 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-78-4-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:04:31 flight16: writing applications in Lisp has the advantage that you don't have to have a separate langauge for scripting it. Lisp can be as fast as C, and more dynamic than most scripting languages. 09:04:36 lisp is supercalifragilisticexpialidocious <-- I think the prize shall be mine :-P 09:04:36 lhz: no, because the spec says so :) 09:06:03 njsg, bananaphanafazertaser? 09:06:13 beach: but does it help me write fewer lines of code? 09:06:16 flight16: you may well lose your nice libraries with lisp 09:06:24 flight16, yes, thanks to macros. 09:06:34 spacebat: :( 09:06:40 in that sense, you may find yourself writing more code because there is nothing of the scale of the CPAN 09:06:43 flight16: if that's your only goal, you should definitely use APL rather than either Perl or Lisp. 09:07:01 flight16, it's good for getting rid of repeating (i.e. "boilerplate" code), as well as letting you describe your problem in the terms of the problem, instead of terms of the primitive language. 09:07:05 if that is my goal shouldn't I use perl, since everybody has already solved the problems and put the solution on cpan? 09:07:13 tic: hm. That's what I hear 09:07:17 tic: what does that mean? 09:07:43 have a look at http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/09/i-like-macros for one example. 09:07:45 flight16: I know all the benefits of perl 09:07:56 yet I *love* lisp 09:07:58 (I abstract away a bunch of lines with the same form into one line) 09:08:11 so if the CPAN is crucial, use Perl 09:08:21 but its still worth learning lisp 09:08:27 michaelw: oh.. that leaves the fog over my understanding of array vs vector :) 09:08:28 njsg, you can write your Lisp code as pseudo code, and then implement the pseudo code. 09:08:45 spacebat: neat... 09:09:15 BTW this is what tipped me over into the lisp world: http://search.cpan.org/~vkon/Language-Lisp-ECLs-0.27/lib/Language/Lisp/ECLs.pm 09:09:17 clhs vector 09:09:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_vector.htm 09:09:23 tic: I was talking about the word you wrote 09:09:28 njsg, what word? 09:09:35 boiler plate? 09:09:41 njsg, repeating code patterns. 09:09:43 lhz: which part of "Any one-dimensional array is a vector." is unclear? :) 09:09:48 njsg, bananaphanafazertaser? 09:09:58 njsg, oh. :-) It's from Munchkin. 09:10:06 njsg, in response to your supercalifrag.... 09:10:27 heh :-P 09:10:49 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:10:52 flight16: using that module you can get the best of both worlds if you want 09:10:57 let's see if there's still some flying umbrella in london... 09:11:06 michaelw: well if so, then sbcl should swallow vector and arrays when given to alien functions, but it just wants one of them. ( If I remember correct ). 09:11:23 but I think the HOP book might be exaggerating the similarities between Perl and Lisp 09:11:44 which though numerous, do not cover some crucial features that make Lisp so elegant 09:12:05 for me the defining points of a Lisp is 1. homoiconicity, which leads to 2. macros. 09:12:12 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16C4B8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:12:25 yes and perl/python/ruby are missing that 09:12:45 IIRC, McCarthy had a list of things which define a Lisp for him 09:12:57 though I hear Io is homoiconic 09:13:00 Like when McCarthy asked Norvig about those features of Python which he claimed to be another Lisp. 09:13:16 I want to see McCarthy's new language, is he ever going to release it I wonder 09:14:07 -!- wolfboy23 [i=baumgold@tithonus.cs.brandeis.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:15:16 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:15:32 elephant? 09:15:37 yes 09:15:40 that's it 09:16:18 it's on his web page. 09:16:29 http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/elephant 09:17:29 :) 09:17:41 sounds a little like macromedia's lingo 09:18:51 iffy syntax. 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How do you guys use find-tag function in slime-mode? Just bind it to some other key? 11:00:04 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.45.123] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:01:07 tomoyuki28jp: which tags would you use? 11:01:14 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 11:01:50 Xach: What do you mean? I use etags system, and I put a tag for each project. 11:04:03 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:48 vasa-work [n=None@212.98.167.157] has joined #lisp 11:04:49 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:05:04 tomoyuki28jp: Take a look at slime-find-definitions-function; you can customize that variable (M-x customize-variable) 11:05:46 tcr: Thanks for the info, I will take a loot at it. 11:05:57 tomoyuki28jp: for lisp, I think most people here don't use tags, but instead rely on the lisp system's definition search mechanism 11:06:23 *H4ns* uses etags for tags-search/tags-query-replace 11:06:27 antifuchs: oh, really. That is what I wanted to know. 11:06:29 ...as it seems to be much smarter about some things (like methods and ambiguous names) 11:06:36 tomoyuki28jp: glad to help. 11:07:11 antifuchs: Can I put a tag for a each project and specify which tag to search by slime? 11:07:42 I can't say, as I haven't used tags since I switched away from ILISP (-: 11:08:07 antifuchs: oh, really. thanks 11:09:20 it's really early in the morning for me, so it's hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or not. 11:09:47 if you are, I would appreciate a note, as I have better things to do (: 11:14:50 *michaelw* wishes for some lisp lore seeders :( 11:15:29 *Xach* willl 11:15:38 michaelw: if you're speaking about bittorrent, that can be arranged. 11:15:55 yes 11:15:57 lisp lore the book? 11:16:04 michaelw: have a link? 11:16:33 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 11:17:15 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:19:22 -!- Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has quit ["leaving"] 11:22:17 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 11:22:22 *Xach* keeps getting dupes of nikodemus messages 11:22:28 *michaelw* too 11:23:15 Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:10 user___ [n=user@p54926BDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:31 *user___* has just finished the first serious software project in his lisp. thanks to CL and the very helpful people in this channel. TVM! 11:25:44 gmane doesn't 11:25:52 s/his lisp/his life/ 11:25:55 the dates sent are the same 11:26:00 -!- kpreid___ is now known as kpreid 11:26:07 user___: blog about it! 11:26:59 michaelw: i dont like blogs, but i will tell me my friends in technical uni ( i am social sciences by myself, so probably they say: if even he can do it...) 11:27:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:28:19 Xach: I'm not getting duplicates; maybe you are being Bcc:ed (-: 11:28:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:28:35 (unlikely of course, if there's SF.net crud at the bottom) 11:30:25 antifuchs: and michaelw too 11:31:20 hm, then (: 11:31:35 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #lisp 11:31:56 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-42-95.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:32:12 schasi [n=schasi@p54A255F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:29 Cecen [i=Cecen@blk-7-133-26.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 11:37:19 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 11:44:06 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.197.104] has joined #lisp 11:46:37 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:47:32 alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 11:47:34 nickga [n=nick@93-97-121-81.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:50:41 michaelw: to be more precise and no fault excuse: really meant blogging by myself and not interacting with blogs in general, no offence at all intended to http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/log/programming/lisp/share-lisp-or-it-dies 11:51:14 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 11:53:23 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:55:40 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-78-4-246.netcologne.de] has quit [] 11:56:17 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 11:56:32 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 11:57:15 *tcr* wishes for MEMBER being a place so (pop (member ...)) would work 11:57:56 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:04 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:01:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:04:48 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-205-104-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:41 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 12:07:03 manuel_ [n=manuel@p54A3FB65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:12 manuel_: hi! 12:07:14 yo 12:07:18 H4ns: how's it going? 12:07:31 H4ns: clojure looks super interesting 12:07:37 manuel_: hacking clojure, having fun. jet lagged, though. 12:07:42 :} 12:08:28 manuel_: yep - i'm currently exploring interfacing with java, and that really is neat. see http://paste.lisp.org/display/67958 12:10:20 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 12:10:37 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 12:10:47 manuel_: btw, (long shot, but maybe worth a try) are you at Maschinenfest? (: 12:10:50 rad 12:10:55 antifuchs: when is that? 12:11:03 it's now, so the answer probably is no (: 12:11:05 is that some enki thingie? 12:11:13 oh no 12:11:28 industrial/something-or-other music festival; a few friends of mine are there (: 12:11:36 that looks to be a pretty gabbery lineup 12:11:41 ah 12:12:02 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.153.249] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:12 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:15:17 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 12:20:01 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:20:36 rswarbrick [n=rupert@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:53 slow internet day 12:22:26 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:43 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:26:04 manuel_: everyone is taking care of business, and working overtime 12:26:13 i'm not! 12:26:13 :} 12:26:23 neither am i! 12:26:31 actually i am 12:26:32 hah 12:26:49 manuel_: because your work is play! 12:27:01 it's turning more and more into marketing and managerial stuff 12:27:05 which i quite enjoy actually 12:28:56 *tcr* writes (code-char char-code) 12:30:33 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:30:41 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CDA1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:32 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:33:07 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:36:36 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:38:00 Does anyone have a stefil test suite I can look at for inspiration? 12:38:02 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.197.104] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:39:22 dlowe: this is a rather complex suite: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=cl-perec-cl-perec;a=tree;f=/test 12:39:53 attila_lendvai: thanks. How hard was it to switch over from fiveam? 12:40:47 but the basic idea is to create suites and tests using the following convention: - a toplevel suite called "test", sub suites like "test/persistence" and tests called "test/persistence/foo". they are all defun's and you can call any of them 12:41:17 dlowe: we wrote stefil on the way to accommodate our needs, so it wasn't that hard... :) 12:41:43 attila_lendvai: needs more documention :p 12:42:12 stefil is basically just a defun* that ensures some dynamic environment where some macros (like IS, SIGNALS, etc.) can record stuff 12:42:23 dlowe: but it has a testsuite! :) 12:42:39 who will test the testers? 12:43:04 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-78-4-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:47:00 alec [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-161.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:49 -!- vasa-work [n=None@212.98.167.157] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 12:57:46 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 13:00:38 hi guys 13:00:42 http://functionalrants.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/stumpwm/ 13:00:47 i'm sure everyone has seen this 13:00:48 sweet 13:01:42 i wonder how they got patrick stewart to narrate 13:01:57 heh 13:02:49 Héhé. 13:02:59 Sorry, wrong window. 13:03:07 the background music is annoying enough to make me close the window. 13:03:36 silence is just one key combo away :) 13:03:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:03:39 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 13:07:06 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:08:13 dlowe: there are some examples here, too: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=cl-dwim-wui;a=tree;f=/test and i've pushed some style changes to stefil, too 13:10:28 pgdx [n=pgd@219.84-48-173.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:31 With Common LISP, how would I pass a function a list? 13:20:55 clhs apply 13:20:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 13:21:10 Cecen: is that what you meant? 13:21:37 I don't think so. I don't know much about LISP to know. :( 13:21:41 Cecen: Can you be a little bit more explicit? I mean, the answer is, "just pass it". 13:21:46 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ca963c709f21e83f] has joined #lisp 13:21:49 Well, 13:22:00 I have a simple (defun test (a b) (list a b)) 13:22:14 Then I try to call it with (test ( (1 2 3) (4 5 6) ) ) and it crashes my interpreter 13:22:18 quote 13:22:23 Which leads me to believe I'm doing it wrong. Since it likes to crash when I'm doing something wrong. 13:22:25 '((123) (456)) 13:22:38 pgdx: no 13:22:38 it tries to evaluate the function 1 13:22:48 ehm? 13:23:01 (test '((123) (456))) 13:23:09 the car of a list that's evaluated is taken as a function 13:23:09 Cecen: (test (list 1 2 3) (list 4 5 6)) or (test '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) 13:23:11 nope, (test '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))) 13:23:27 oh, TWO lists 13:23:30 Oh, it seems to work. Thanks. 13:23:35 (test '(123) '(456)) 13:23:35 For some reason it wasn't working the first time I tried :( 13:23:39 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:24:26 Cecen: in lisp you can't just add parens. think of each non-quoted () as a function call for now 13:24:46 *exceptinlet* 13:25:16 outside of macros and special forms.... 13:31:15 allthoug, Cecen, you might try to replace the list-function with the append-function. 13:32:03 -!- pgdx [n=pgd@219.84-48-173.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 13:32:09 for what reason? 13:33:40 Cecen, have you looked at Practical Common Lisp? 13:34:01 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp419.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:38:00 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl274.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:12 anekos [n=anekos@pl274.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:41:21 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:04 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:49:59 -!- ths [n=ths@port-212-202-236-178.static.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:50:38 hrm, on http://paste.linuxhelp.tv/paste_entries/291, can someone help me return two values from read-until-done (bottom function) with multiple-bind-values or something other than just returning a list like i'm doing? 13:50:44 i keep failing on my attempts 13:50:52 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:17 bougyman: I think you can just replace "list" with "values" 13:51:35 that paste doesn't work for me. try lisppaste next time 13:52:02 Hun: lose the comma at the end of the URL 13:52:02 Then in your defn of command, just drop the car (it'll just use the primary value) 13:52:08 http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 13:52:31 Hun: what do you mean doesn't work? 13:52:40 bougyman, watch out for Limp indenting your LETs wrong. :) 13:52:40 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.221] has joined #lisp 13:52:40 -!- jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:52:43 msingh0 [n=user@203.171.123.8.dynamic.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:52:44 michaelw: ah, ok. i just trusted my emacs in there :) 13:53:05 jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 13:53:05 bougyman: Oh and your indentation for the socket method is v icky. The setf and read-until-done lines shouldn't be indented that far. 13:53:08 tic: is that supposed to be a two space indent instead of aligning with the variable declarations? 13:53:09 Hun: emacs did no wrong, comma does not delimit an URL 13:53:14 bougyman, yes. 13:53:17 true 13:53:28 bougyman: which editor do you use? 13:53:32 tic: same with the with-output-to-string indenting? 13:53:40 michaelw: vim with tic's limp 13:53:42 *michaelw* retracts the question 13:53:46 too late! 13:54:13 More importantly though, #rubyists ?!!! 13:54:24 bougyman, mhm. for some reason, it's doing wrong almost everywhere. :/ 13:54:29 bougyman: the indentation is messed up all over the place; w-o-t-s, when, etc. 13:54:34 bougyman, and unless. 13:54:35 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:58 bougyman, and oh, s/full_match matches/full-match matches/. 13:55:10 i.e., no _ in Lisp variables. You can, but it's not how you name things usually. 13:55:20 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:56:26 ah, that musta been an early one. 13:56:32 *tic* feels torned between a lot of tasks all of a sudden. 13:56:32 i've overcome my _ key now. 13:56:53 -!- Cecen [i=Cecen@blk-7-133-26.eastlink.ca] has left #lisp 13:59:27 tic: is (defun read-until-done (stream) 13:59:30 "Read a stream until an ending sequence occurs (OK or ACK)" 13:59:34 (let (full_match matches) 13:59:37 (list 13:59:41 (with-output-to-string (mpd-output) 13:59:44 "Build mpd-output from the stream" 13:59:48 (loop for line = (read-line stream nil nil) 13:59:51 while line do 13:59:55 (when (setf (values full-match matches) (cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings "^(OK|ACK)(\\s.*?)?$" line)) 13:59:58 (return)) 14:00:02 (write-line line mpd-output))) 14:00:05 ah crap 14:00:08 wrong buffer, sorry 14:00:10 i meant: http://paste.linuxhelp.tv/paste_entries/294 14:00:33 is that indented correctly now? 14:00:38 bougyman, paste at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 14:00:43 *looking* 14:01:20 i have a cli util for the paste.linuxhelp.tv, I asssume there's one for paste.lisp.org, too? 14:01:32 weird indentation on (list ... 14:01:39 bougyman: for emacs, yes 14:01:41 bougyman: lisppaste.el, of course 14:01:54 like was suggested above, replace (list ...) w/ (values ...) 14:01:57 emacs != command line 14:01:59 Hm. 14:02:09 *tic* needs to write a lisppaste.cl obviously. :-) 14:02:22 ECL's gotta have socket stuff. 14:02:47 it does 14:02:51 it also has usocket 14:03:00 (portable socket stuff) 14:03:38 bougyman pasted "indent right?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67970 14:04:00 ehu, nifty. 14:04:03 _zenon_ pasted "Failing on example from PCL book" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67971 14:04:24 <_zenon_> someone willing to throw a look at this? 14:04:31 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:04:44 bougyman, two spaces is the standard indentation. missed that for values. 14:05:04 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:34 tic: ah, limp goes one space after a newline for parameter lists 14:05:40 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 14:06:02 *user___* notes that sb-ext:process-kill does not implicitly call sb-ext:process-close 14:06:24 tic: is that using vim's standard lisp autoindent? 14:07:18 bougyman, it /should/ but for some reason it's slightly screwed up and I haven't been able to pinpoint the location :/ 14:07:45 _zenon_: Have you defined report-result anywhere? 14:07:55 You've only pasted report-result2 14:08:07 (it's used in check3) 14:08:23 <_zenon_> rswarbrick, you are right! 14:08:43 Well, I asked a question, so I'm not sure how I can be right... but anytime! :) 14:08:51 <_zenon_> rswarbrick, well spotted,, yeah it's defined in the same file. 14:09:12 _zenon_, btw, I saw your folder name. You can call it LISP if you like, of course, but these days it's spelled Lisp. 14:09:33 (unless you're referring to the entire language family circa 30 years ago) 14:10:46 good morning 14:10:46 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:17 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:32 *michaelw* keeps getting nikodemus mails 14:11:37 tic: same behavior without limp, it's vim's filetype support for lisp (built-in on 7.1 here) 14:12:00 bougyman, it should be sane, if you have set lisp and set filetype=lisp and filetype plugins enabled. 14:12:48 <_zenon_> hm, still the same error 14:15:49 tic: it's sane, just has the bugs mentioned above 14:16:11 tic: i'm going to make the necessary changes via IndentAnything. 14:16:22 makes it easier than hacking on the vim-supplied indentation. 14:16:41 http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=1839 14:16:49 _zenon_: what is with-gensyms ? 14:17:03 kmkaplan, convenience macro. 14:17:30 <_zenon_> kmkplan http://gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html 14:17:33 Better than (let ((result (gensym)) ...) ? 14:17:55 kmkaplan, shorter, obviously. 14:18:09 kmkaplan, and more readable, some might argue. 14:18:58 tic: nm, limp was still loading. you're right, without limp the vim indenting is spot-on. 14:19:20 In this case the length would be the same. 14:19:39 bougyman, yup. I'm sorry about that. 14:19:46 kmkaplan, I'm talking about the general case. :-) 14:19:53 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-78-4-246.netcologne.de] has quit [] 14:19:55 bougyman pasted "vim standard indentation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67973 14:20:17 But OK. The question is: does the macro exists in the package where the file is read. 14:20:42 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:21:05 tic: in limp, %= does the same thing as \ft, so it's overriding something in the indenting logic. 14:21:17 *bougyman* digs 14:21:46 bougyman, it does more than that, and \ft is the wrong place to look. 14:22:01 (I don't know where, and I've yet to make a binary search -- too lazy) 14:22:02 <_zenon_> kmkaplan, yeah, I believe so 14:22:10 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:22:30 <_zenon_> kmkaplan, trying to define it myself, it whines ... DEFUN/DEFMACRO(WITH-GENSYMS): # is locked 14:23:21 clisp has its own with-gensyms 14:23:22 clisp defines and exports WITH-GENSYMS from EXT 14:23:28 and CL-USER on clisp uses EXT 14:25:31 <_zenon_> ,,, 14:25:39 _zenon_: CLisp's with-gensyms is quite unlike PCL's. 14:26:19 http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/macros3.html#with-gensyms 14:26:27 <_zenon_> kmkaplan, is it? ... that might be a source of problem 14:26:33 it's a combo, tic. 14:26:43 without mode.vim it's all single-space indenting. 14:27:00 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 14:27:10 with mode.vim it goes to that extended indenting of forms lining up on the parameter lists. 14:27:18 <_zenon_> kmkaplan, yeah, that was it 14:27:37 so something before mode.vim is doing the single space thing, and mode is doing the far-out indenting. 14:27:39 <_zenon_> kmkaplan, it loads now 14:27:47 <_zenon_> also, thanks for the page 14:27:51 tic: jvaughn and I will keep digging. 14:30:21 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@p54A3FB65.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 14:32:50 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 14:38:14 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-55-80.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:39:55 morning 14:40:44 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:41:36 mncharity [n=jobsearc@c-98-216-110-149.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:59 <_zenon_> morning 14:43:19 hello slyrus 14:43:33 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-188-161-219.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:34 slyrus: you really need to come here for the Friday-night-once-every-month-or-so wine-and-cheese-tasting evenings. 14:44:53 sounds nice! one of these days! :) 14:46:19 huh. I get reminder mail about pending request for a common-lisp.net mailing list, yet the web interface says no pending requests. 14:46:24 slyrus: Yeah, either plan to stay for a few months, or plan to show up when one is on! :) They are such a wonderful mixture of French arbitrariness and professionalism. 14:47:54 that's a nice tag line: "Oh, what's he like?" "Well, you know, arbitrary, but professional!" 14:47:58 bleifreidenker [n=user@p5B075625.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:16 slyrus: I can't explain it. It has to be experienced. 14:48:26 I can imagine :) 14:48:38 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 14:50:53 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085019.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:51:32 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 15:01:57 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 15:04:16 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 15:06:18 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16C4B8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:06:40 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:06:42 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-55-80.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:08:44 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-55-80.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:12:08 Could I get a sanity check? I've a 400k lisp file (mechanically generated). Current sbcl, x86_64, 2GB memory+lots-of-swap. With parts of the file deferred to runtime with eval, I can both compile and run (though using near 2 GB each time). Attempting to compile the whole thing isn't working. --dynamic-space-size 2500 runs out of heap. 3000 continues to make progress, but eventually memory faulted (one trial). so question is, 15:12:22 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:13:06 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:13:57 mncharity: you got cut off after "so question is," 15:14:10 Is this a case of "you are trying to do something obviously insane - pay the (high) cost of breaking up that file". or "set X to bound something or other". or "try clisp instead". or "that shouldn't happen - check your code for pathologies". or "known bug or limitation". or something else? 15:14:18 any thoughts, guidance? 15:14:35 *_3b* is guessing 'check the code' 15:15:12 <_3b> at least from what little you said so far 15:15:30 <_3b> i guess if it is a 400k defun, that would probably be hard to compile 15:15:37 once I had a mechanically generated file that was killing allegrocl, I found the whole thing was wrapped in a "progn", I removed that and it used much, much less memory 15:16:04 pretty much every compiler assumes that individual function definitions aren't huge. 15:17:00 <_3b> 230k file full of short defuns takes a while to compile, but never noticed problems beyond that 15:17:16 I'd probably start with sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* bound to :interpret and loading the file 15:17:37 michaelw: depends on mncharity's goal with that file. 15:18:16 awesome. sounds like a resounding "not obviously insane". and since there are some large let-ish or progn constructs, and a large defun or two, there are some obvious things to work on next. 15:18:57 <_3b> well, generating 400k of something that isn't a list of ffi bindings sounds a bit insane :) 15:19:02 <_3b> thats what macros are for :p 15:20:54 re goal, I'm bootstrapping a language on CL. the first cut at the compiler, self-compiled, was that large file. 15:21:15 cool 15:21:41 <_3b> yeah, that was my best guess for a sorta sane reason :) 15:21:51 lol 15:22:22 mncharity: so you could just use the interpreter, until you're self hosted. 15:22:59 ...unless you're compiling to CL and that's typical output for your compilation scheme. 15:23:23 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has left #lisp 15:23:31 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 15:24:50 mncharity: which language/ 15:26:13 Hun` [n=Hun@p4FCF6816.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:50 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:50 regrettably the objective is to create a comfortable place for people to flesh out the compiler. and non-precompiled, the edit-test cycle is glacial. so I'm afraid it's both "can't wait", and "typical". 15:31:18 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp419.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 15:33:59 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1CA0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:00 perl6. pity the POPL invited keynote on it never happened. there are other implementation efforts - a defunct-but-may-reawake haskell implementation which got pretty far, and a vm-based effort. but neither are remotely close to self hosting, and more critically, neither is attracting the developer resources needed for completion any time soon. though that might change when the new ghc comes out. 15:34:24 george_ [n=george@189.107.153.249] has joined #lisp 15:34:42 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D396.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:13 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF6816.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:19 jazen3 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 15:35:45 mncharity: if people are intended to edit this compiler output, should the individual functions not be quite small and logically arranged? 15:35:59 having just had this conversation at the boston lisp group, I note "perl6 != perl". re output, 15:36:10 (I don't know if there are scalability problems with huge files of small, logically-arranged functions in sbcl; it's still entirely possible) 15:36:13 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:38:11 people are not intended to edit the emitted CL. There's a very small handwritten CL core (eg, to do non-conformant generic functions), and some hybrid primitives, but it's mostly written in p6. 15:38:14 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:38:18 gashale [n=kvirc@81-208-31-216.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:39:31 without looking at your generated CL, it's hard to say whether it's insane or not 15:40:08 indeed. but there are some very large forms, so that's what I'll experiment with first. 15:41:52 how large is "very large" (e.g., in lines of code)? 15:42:41 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:42:47 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:43:29 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.221] has left #lisp 15:43:50 does wrapping forms in (locally (declare (optimize (speed 0) (size 0))) ...) actually make the compilation faster in sbcl, or are some analyzes of super-linear complexity still performed? 15:44:42 <_3b> presumably you would want compilation-speed 3 also 15:44:53 re how large, total is 7k lines, 40k words, 400k char. I'd be unsurprised to find several forms each enclosing 10+% of that. with maybe a 30+% spike. 15:44:54 I wouldn't expect much improvement in compilation speed. 15:45:24 I'll explore. And report if people are curious. 15:46:24 <_3b> might try ccl if you use a supported platform, isn't it supposed to compile quickly? (though no guarantee that translates to lower space requirements) 15:49:53 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:10 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:58 my thanks for the key "not necessarily insane", and for all the good suggestions. 15:52:21 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:43 rpg_laptop [n=rpg@2861-host241.dsl.visi.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:58 superkiwi [n=erik@ti211110a080-7997.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:58:40 MHOOO [n=nah@u-6-027.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:59:42 Hello, what does #\ mean in lisp? Can't find anything about it on google. 15:59:50 character 15:59:59 -!- jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:09 "foo" => vector with contents #\f #\o #\o 16:00:11 hmm. But I thought 'c is a character 16:00:12 jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 16:00:16 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 16:00:17 that's symbol 16:00:34 (more generally: quote) 16:00:37 i see. 16:01:30 I understand, elt returns #\ aswell on string a string. Thanks, think I got it. 16:02:05 superkiwi: ancient lisps used symbols whose names were single characters to represent characters, but that's not generally done any more 16:02:32 er, whose names were strings of one character, to be excruciatingly precise :) 16:03:13 kpreid: but ancient Lisps didn't have strings, so symbol-names weren't string :) 16:03:22 strings* 16:03:32 hence EXPLODE 16:03:45 kreuter: heh, point 16:04:11 KABOOM 16:04:20 lol:asplode 16:04:47 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:40 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:06:49 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:08:46 -!- jazen3 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:27 I'd expect low debug and compilation-speed to help a little bit 16:13:13 bleifrei` [n=user@p5B075625.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:17 -!- bleifreidenker [n=user@p5B075625.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:14:38 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:16:53 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:17:37 why does (car nil) yield nil? 16:17:49 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-007-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:06 jewel: that's how it's specified 16:18:09 jewel: it's defined this way. like cdr 16:18:16 is there a historical reason? 16:18:18 jewel: because some hacker thought it'd make life simpler 40 years ago. 16:18:48 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 16:20:00 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.211.108] has joined #lisp 16:21:27 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 16:23:27 I still like that behavior 16:24:17 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:24:36 bougyman, [digging] great! 16:25:01 (I'm sure the newly-converted the Clojure way will now point at me and laugh at my old-fashioned wedded-to-cons-pairs alist-using ways) 16:26:21 i found some weird stuff in clojure too ;) 16:26:34 Does customize-target-features.lisp go in the top-level SBCL or in the src dir? 16:26:38 ('a 3) => nil; ('a 3 5) => 5 16:26:49 gigamonkey: toplevel 16:27:45 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has joined #lisp 16:28:33 Hun`: lemme guess: the symbol named "a" is also a function (assoc 'a), like with keywords? 16:28:56 michaelw: thanks. 16:29:00 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 16:29:02 doesn't explain the second example or the fact that nil is returned instead of a type error, though :) 16:29:03 One of these months I'll remember that. 16:29:11 asso2 [n=asso@host192-27-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:29:22 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:14 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:31:26 ah, wait, presumably the second arg to Clojure's assoc functions is the default. there goes the second example, then 16:31:49 cmm: it's a lookup function in e.g. maps 16:31:50 -!- asso2 [n=asso@host192-27-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [" mIRC in Italiano by www.mircmania.it"] 16:32:09 Hun`: yeah. only 3 is not a map 16:32:15 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 16:32:16 and lookup just returns second-arg on not-found, or throws third-arg if non-nil 16:32:41 Is there a function or better way to do this?? (loop for i in '(:key1 "value1" :key2 "value2") when (keywordp i) collect i) 16:32:44 true. that counts as not-found. i talked with the implementor that i didn't expect this behavior 16:32:56 makes sense, but 3 is still not a map :) 16:33:09 my words ;) 16:33:25 Hun`: how quaint 16:33:29 tomoyuki28jp: remove-if-not. 16:35:35 BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.215.61.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 16:35:42 what's a good date library that has good timezone handling and all? 16:35:42 pkhuong: this works! thanks! (remove-if-not #'keywordp '(:key1 "value1" :key2 "value2")) 16:35:54 I had been looking for this for a long.. 16:36:49 ? 16:36:56 minion: tell BW^- about local-time 16:36:57 BW^-: direct your attention towards local-time: local-time is a development library for manipulating date and time information in a semi-standard manner. http://www.cliki.net/local-time 16:37:01 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 16:37:51 cmm: thanks! 16:37:53 is this The Thing? 16:37:56 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:44 no idea, but supposedly yes 16:41:00 sellout [n=greg@user-0cevff8.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:06 -!- bleifrei` [n=user@p5B075625.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:43:19 -!- sellout [n=greg@user-0cevff8.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44:42 turjo [n=fhs@pool-71-183-1-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:06 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host172.190-137-247.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:46:22 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:47:54 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:48:34 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:24 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:30 vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:50:34 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:53:45 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:43 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb8bbf.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 16:57:59 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:58:03 -!- _YKY_ [i=YKY@116.49.126.12] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:59:09 -!- superkiwi [n=erik@ti211110a080-7997.bb.online.no] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:59:46 gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-55-51-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:18 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:05:22 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:06:33 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:07:10 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A255F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:11:06 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:24 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 17:13:23 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:00 -!- gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-55-51-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:15:15 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 17:15:54 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-007-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:15:56 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:18:22 wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:20 oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-24-236.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:23:34 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-193-127.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:22 xokaido pasted "xokaido's dmesg" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67982 17:25:09 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-5-050.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:26:57 Are timezone UTC offsets date dependant? 17:27:09 I.e., is CET or MST different depending on if it's july 1 or november 1 ? 17:27:41 yes. 17:27:55 BW^-: you mean with daylight saving? 17:28:13 michaelw: i think that's the only thing that affects hour:minute offsets, yes 17:28:31 on second level, there's an adjustment of a second or two depending on year also, right? 17:29:15 btbngr [n=btbngr@5ad9f24b.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:23 BW^-: I'm not sure but I think UTC takes hat into account. So that you would not see it on a UTC offset basis. 17:29:34 s/hat/that/ 17:29:42 kmkaplan: that sounds fair. 17:29:45 Now, I want to parse "Thu, 02 Oct 2008 14:26:00 MST" to a) its UTC date representation, and b) to an epoch time, in seconds. 17:29:52 what's the algorithm to do this? 17:30:34 or let's skip b), i'm clear on that one already, presuming one has a). 17:30:44 metasynt1x [n=taylor@pool-71-188-161-219.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:00 BW^-: that one is relatively easy. 17:32:32 so how do a)? 17:32:40 You can read it with whatever DST and then apply the one that matches the result you get. 17:32:42 BW^-: can't net-telent-date parse it? 17:33:14 kmkaplan: how do you mean? 17:33:22 BW^-: the difficult (unsolvable?) one is when you read a date that occured at two different moments. 17:34:27 robewald [n=user@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:28 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:04 Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:10 -!- Brucio-8 is now known as beslyrus 17:35:17 yeah. beirc still works. 17:35:19 I.e. what is Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:30:00 CET. 17:36:34 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:37:21 -!- btbngr [n=btbngr@5ad9f24b.bb.sky.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:37:27 kmkaplan, the interpretation of that string as an RFC (2)822 date is undefined. 17:37:52 But BW^- didn't specify (until he mentioned it in a parallel conversation in #scheme) that he meant RFC (2)822 dates. 17:37:52 That does not help much. 17:38:54 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-19-214.kosnet.ru] has quit ["Have a nice day!"] 17:39:03 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:39 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@u-6-027.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:41:12 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-188-161-219.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:41:42 Riastradh: ok, I had not seend the RFC mention. 17:42:33 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 17:43:00 Note, by the way, that if we're talking about the HTTP, there are no questions about time zones: the dates always say `GMT' and mean UTC. 17:43:20 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 17:43:39 BW^-: I seem to remember that michaelw is right: net-telent-date does it. 17:43:57 Riastradh: but BW^- mentionned MST timezone. 17:44:20 that's correct, RFC 822 allows only a very little range of timezones. 17:44:22 Yes, well, BW^- was confused: he told me that he was asking about RSS, whose latest specification refers to RFC 822 date formats. 17:44:28 (local-time:local-time :universal (net.telent.date:parse-time "Thu, 02 Oct 2008 14:26:00 MST")) => @2008-10-02T23:26:00+02:00 17:44:31 http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc822.html 17:44:37 That, or BW^- is trying to parse confused RSS documents. 17:44:43 page 25 17:44:46 right 17:44:50 completely broken actually 17:44:58 they have ~15 different date formats in them 17:45:25 hi, on sbcl and slime I have a problem while loading a system and the debugger gives me a #. I expect I can inspect that value, but how? 17:45:26 BW^-, the first thing to do is to inform the creators of these RSS documents that they are drooling cretins and don't deserve the bandwidth that they are occupying. 17:45:32 minion: memo for tomoyuki28jp: but if you have a property list, some values may be keywords. Are you sure you want to keep them? If not, remove-if-not won't do. Try: (loop for (k v) :on plist :by (function cddr) :collect k) 17:45:33 Remembered. I'll tell tomoyuki28jp when he/she/it next speaks. 17:46:13 xokaido pasted "xokaido's lsmod" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67984 17:46:29 BW^-, then you have to guess what the intent is, because any heuristic that you choose for interpreting the dates is likely to be just as bogus as the heuristic that the drooling cretins with whom you are trying to interact chose to present the dates. 17:47:13 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-007-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:42 hehe 17:47:47 m 17:47:57 well indeed it's not fun that dates are a mess, 17:48:04 though there's good methods to create clarity. 17:48:13 (You are, of course, welcome to substitute your favourite epithet for `drooling cretin'. Other colourful choices include `incorrigible numbskull', `blathering blothead', `brain-damaged poltroon', &c.) 17:48:33 Yes, good methods such as bludgeons. 17:48:39 robewald: hmm, what does it give you exactly? 17:49:17 jazen3 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 17:49:21 -!- jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49:25 robewald: usually the real error is in the compiler output earlier in the compilation under ERROR or WARNING 17:49:26 -!- rpg_laptop [n=rpg@2861-host241.dsl.visi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:36 -!- beslyrus [n=Brucio-8@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:08 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:57 hrmm... mcclim-truetype, OTOH, seems busted. 17:54:05 -!- Hun` [n=Hun@p4FCF6816.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:29 kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 17:54:46 slyrus_: what are you doing? 17:55:02 just trying to get basic mcclim apps up and running again. 17:55:14 slyrus_: excellent initiative! 17:55:20 I'm considering trying to do some chemical structure drawing in mcclim. 17:59:02 What broke them. I haven't updated for a while, so things are still working here. 17:59:40 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-24-236.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:00:02 not sure. zapping fasls and upgrading to the latest sbcl before digging in. 18:00:19 OK, keep us updated. 18:03:18 *Xach* is pretty excited about his bootstrapping scheme 18:03:26 if you do any drawing in the listener, you'll probably have to disable the "eval in background thread" trick 18:06:12 jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 18:06:49 Xach: bootstrapping what? 18:07:09 michaelw: anything at all 18:07:10 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:07:40 michaelw: i'd like to do a replacement for asdf-install for starters 18:07:49 yes, please! :) 18:08:36 hrm... The value NIL is not of type XLIB:VISUAL-INFO. 18:09:25 oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-24-236.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:09:55 hefner: no, we fixed the main problem with that. 18:10:39 what was the main problem? I'm thinking that none of the stream functions are thread safe, and it misbehaves. 18:11:20 Oh, that's possible. We fixed the assignment of the streams before the new thread was created. 18:11:50 flavioc [n=flaviocr@217.129.160.175] has joined #lisp 18:11:56 To pop an element from a list, and that element is supposed to be sought in the list, is there some nice way of doing it? 18:11:57 *Xach* has lots of ideas that seem like they might require a lot of effort, is trying to figure out how to make it manageable and/or automated 18:12:52 hmm. abcl.org expires today. how should I proceed to secure it for ABCL? Anybody any ideas? (I know, only vaguely Lisp related, but it's Lisp-project related and I can use some good ideas here...) 18:13:19 ehu: the registrar usually does not care who pays 18:13:40 you mean: approach the registrar? 18:13:50 slyrus_: what's wrong with mcclim-truetype? 18:14:01 Xach: actually, there error is actually not important, I am insterested in the file that it occurs in, especially its path. I had hoped that I could do that. 18:14:03 rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 18:14:04 ehu: there are services for acquiring expiring domains. google might show some. 18:14:33 robewald: usually the compilation process says "; compiling /foo/bar/baz.lisp" 18:15:51 -!- jazen3 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:13 *robewald* blushes 18:17:08 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 18:18:00 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-140.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:36 robewald: is there something like that in there? 18:21:07 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-55-80.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 18:22:06 gonzojive [n=red@75.55.51.80] has joined #lisp 18:24:20 Xach: yes, sure, I was just not looking there. 18:24:48 ok, cool 18:25:11 capca [n=some0ne@ip70-185-96-119.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:31 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbb05a.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 18:29:28 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:30:59 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:31:19 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-24-236.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:31:44 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:34:51 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.211.108] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:46 i'm lost with the macro interpolation thing. 18:38:27 bougyman pasted "command has to be a string, why?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67987 18:38:33 i found it helpful to think of ` as a template system that is easy to use with macros. it's not required for macros and it's not useful only for macros. 18:39:15 (make-command "foo") works great, (make-command (format nil "~a" "foo")) fails. 18:39:32 bougyman: because the list (FORMAT NIL "~a" "foo") is not a string. 18:39:37 i'm sure this is a commond problem. 18:39:42 Xach: yes, i understand that. 18:39:44 bougyman: macros get unevaluated source code and return new source code. 18:39:44 bougyman: then, probably the argument isn't evaluated 18:39:48 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:39:53 i can't seem to make it evaluate that, though 18:40:00 i've tried a let in the macro, all sorts of stuff. 18:40:03 bougyman: change what you want. 18:40:08 seems i'm going in circles. 18:40:18 -!- rswarbrick [n=rupert@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 18:40:25 bougyman: make it a function then. 18:40:43 make a function to make functios? 18:40:46 bougyman: what would you really want to do, instead of that format nil experiment? 18:40:54 tcr: pop and seek sound antinomic, don't you think. That might explain why no answer for 30 minutes... 18:40:57 bougyman: MAKE-FOO is a naming scheme used for constructor _functions_; DEFFOO, or DEFINE-FOO for macros which introduce new definitions. 18:41:03 hefner: I get that error I mentioned above: The value NIL is not of type XLIB:VISUAL-INFO. 18:41:12 tcr: noted, will modify that part. 18:41:16 the colormap's visual-info slot is nil for some reason 18:41:52 Xach: (dolist (command (list of commands)) (make-command command)) 18:41:57 slyrus_: sorry, missed that. doesn't ring a bell. 18:42:05 that's what I want to do. 18:42:19 bougyman: in that case i'd use a top-level macrolet. 18:42:31 keeps defining 'C' (the variable in my actual code) 18:42:41 *Xach* tries to find an example of when he did something like that 18:43:33 hefner: I'm guessing it's a CLX problem 18:44:39 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb8bbf.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:15 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:45 I did make some changes to clx recently 18:47:48 but hefner knows about them 18:49:56 it is possible that I goofed 18:50:41 slyrus_: can you check without mcclim-truetype? 18:52:01 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 18:53:50 bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:22 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-007-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:03:14 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:03:23 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633014.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 19:03:47 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:04:21 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633014.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:08:41 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbb05a.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:07 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:30 *rvirding* says hello everyone 19:09:51 -!- gonzojive [n=red@75.55.51.80] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:54 hello, rvirding 19:10:17 gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-55-51-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:38 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 19:13:20 oh, look, RESOURCE-ID-MAP-TEST 19:14:06 hm, 19:15:09 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-007-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:28 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:32 slyrus_: are you there? Do you have any kind of a reproducible test case? 19:17:34 Xach: i don't understand why do-primes from http://gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html works with his (random 100) but my define-command fails with a (format) function as an argument. 19:18:26 bougyman: evaluation rules. 19:18:46 bougyman: (random 100) is substituted into a position that is evaluated in the expansion. the first argument to defun is not evaluated. 19:19:11 bougyman pasted "Why won't 'cmd' evaluate inside the ,(intern ...) ?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67992 19:19:15 -!- flavioc [n=flaviocr@217.129.160.175] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:19:26 Xach: aha. 19:19:40 so it's the fact that i'm using it as the function name that makes it different. 19:19:55 but why isn't it evaluating in the ,(intern ...) ? 19:20:31 bougyman: it will evaluate 19:20:49 bougyman: it evaluates CMD, which is a variable. 19:20:50 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:21:10 bougyman: the value of CMD is a list, which is passed as an argument to INTERN 19:21:35 Xach: why is it a list instead of the evaluation of that form? 19:21:50 slyrus_: even some kind of backtrace would be interesting 19:21:50 bougyman: because macros do not evaluate their arguments (that's the point of macros) 19:21:50 does this have to do with macroexpansion time vs runtime? 19:22:43 sort of. 19:22:51 is there a workaround to solve my problem? 19:23:05 i would use macrolet at the top level. 19:23:05 i'd like to loop through a list and run define-command on the members. 19:23:11 i don't know what a macrolet is. 19:23:27 local macro 19:23:39 i'll try to show you an example. 19:23:41 *Xach* writes 19:23:45 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 19:24:05 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:50 vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 19:27:05 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Client Quit] 19:27:47 kjbrock_ [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-140.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:17 -!- alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:30:06 bougyman: how many commands are there to define? 19:30:07 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:30 Xach: never know. 19:30:31 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 19:30:36 Xach: at least 35 19:30:54 variable, from 35 to 45 19:31:11 depends on the server version. 19:31:11 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:32 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 19:31:54 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:31:55 Xach annotated #67992 with "options" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67992#1 19:32:29 bougyman: that's all about mpd? how do you know at compile-time which server version will be at run-time? 19:34:43 hrm. 19:34:50 stassats: i don't. 19:35:06 stassats: that's why I want this macro. 19:35:30 and how it will help? 19:35:37 stassats: i've changed to a function which evals the `(defun ,(intern ... and it works. 19:35:40 but I feel dirty. 19:35:49 stassats: on connect it creates the client methods. 19:36:21 i mean functions, of course. 19:36:31 based on the servers "commands" listing. 19:36:35 bougyman: check my annotation for alternatives. 19:36:53 oh, that won't work. 19:36:54 Xach: will do. I assume i'm right re: the stinkiness of eval. 19:37:08 bougyman: what's the point? 19:37:24 if you're getting the command names at runtime from external input, there's no reason to defun them at all. 19:37:26 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 19:37:37 Xach: unless the purpose is repl usage 19:37:48 *Xach* is unconvinced 19:38:03 the point of what, the macro? to avoid having to define them statically. 19:39:13 i just define all commands 19:39:50 *Xach* doesn't know much about mpd, but would probably define all commands up front and keep a table of supported commands that's checked at runtime in each command. 19:39:58 they're all identical 19:40:10 you end up with a ton of the exact same function. 19:40:14 with a different name. 19:40:18 that's what the macro is for. 19:40:24 to give them all their names. 19:40:26 but you wouldn't use the macro at runtime. 19:40:39 (mpc:next), (mpc:pause), etc. 19:40:44 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:58 runtime (connect time) is the only time you know what commands are supported. 19:41:10 they aren't all exact 19:41:11 sure they could all be defined then checked against some table or what-not. 19:41:14 bougyman: is the set of commands unlimited, and determined only by a server? 19:41:21 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:41:27 but that's a lot of state-maintenance for nothing, seeing as every server has this information available. 19:41:39 Xach: it's limited 19:41:40 Xach: for programming purposes, yes. 19:41:52 the current mpd server implementation in use has a certain set. 19:42:10 but the protocol is open, another implementation could support a greater set, or subset. 19:42:23 bougyman: how would you make use of new commands in programs? 19:42:31 bougyman: then applications which are written to use those commands can use a define-command macro... 19:42:58 bougyman: make the definitions in terms of what the clients know, not the server, since the client is more static 19:43:18 kpreid: that's not very dynamic. 19:43:19 some commands have different arguments types, some different return values 19:43:52 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-140.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:43:57 the two current versions of this i've done generate the command methods (or functions) on connection, that's all i'm trying to emulate. 19:44:01 so you can't define them according to the list of available commands, if you want a good library 19:44:13 stassats: no, the only argument type is a string, and the only return value is a string. 19:44:29 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:44:40 i have a (parse-return-string) and (parse-command) that abstracts the details of those strings. 19:45:08 bougyman: say, volume returns and accepts integers (in a string, yeah) 19:45:24 *Xach* has a tcl flashback 19:45:27 kreuter: does 1 or 2 fd/thread seem like a reasonable cost for hopefully more robust GC? 19:45:28 if you want a good library, you should parse that string 19:45:33 that's what the above functions handle. 19:46:04 a command can return a song-list, a song an mpd-status, etc. 19:46:19 but the command body doesn't change. 19:46:25 how can i continue my loop until it returns a true value from a function ? 19:46:34 bougyman: but how do you know it from the list of available commands? 19:46:35 capca: loop until 19:46:43 what would the until value be 19:46:44 stassats: you don't, and don't need to. 19:46:58 capca: the value that must not be false. 19:47:21 stassats: parsing the return string determines the object you return. 19:47:27 pkhuong: how do i get that from my function? 19:47:53 __name__ [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 19:48:06 *drewc* hands capca SETQ 19:48:20 ah ok sorry 19:48:22 stassats: but even if you narrow it to the set of commands that do the exact same thing (no args, only return OK or ACK), the macro would be beneficial. 19:48:24 -!- robewald [n=user@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:48:27 even just at load time for that. 19:48:48 there are about 12 of those, no? 19:49:00 capca: (loop until (this call returns a true value) ...) 19:49:04 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45D67.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:04 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:49:05 capca: or simply (loop :until (my-func ...)) 19:49:16 ohh 19:49:49 (defun next () (command "next")) (defun prev () (command "prev")) 19:49:55 doing 18 of those seems silly 19:50:05 bougyman: that's what a macro is for. 19:50:12 Xach: I know! 19:50:23 Xach: that's what i'm trying to use this one for. 19:50:26 the macro isn't for defining the functions at runtime based on input from the server. 19:50:35 Xach: ok, so take that silly idea away. 19:50:39 i can't do it at load time either. 19:50:50 not without the eval stinkiness i've added 19:50:55 bougyman: did you see my annotation? 19:51:03 Xach: checking. 19:51:32 For anyone curious about my "sbcl compiling a large file blows the heap" problem from earlier, it now appears to resolve as: (1) wrapping things in nested top-level (LET () ...)'s can be very costly, even when they create no variables. (2) A 60kB defun containing 100 (mutually-independent) lambdas (solely to stuff them into a datastructure), is vastly more costly than a 60kB LET with 100 vars setq to lambdas and a tiny defun. 19:52:09 mncharity: a toplevel LET loses toplevelness, so sbcl compiles all the definitions as one huge form. 19:52:28 Xach: could commands be a list? 19:52:45 vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 19:52:45 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:51 bougyman: where would the list come from? 19:52:53 *stassats* used to have a general macro, but decided to switch to a simple macro 19:52:58 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Success] 19:53:03 pkhuong: that doesn't sound unreasonable, you can't create a gazillion threads anyway. what were you thinking of? 19:53:05 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.127.104.13] has joined #lisp 19:53:08 that's how it looks http://github.com/stassats/mpd/tree/master/commands.lisp now 19:53:09 -!- arbscht_ is now known as arbscht 19:53:19 Xach: a file, db, any external data source. 19:53:24 vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 19:53:35 bougyman: the list wouldn't be part of the source? 19:53:43 bougyman: that's not much different than getting it from the server. 19:53:54 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:56 jsnell: I'm thinking of implementing the `magic page fault to stop the world' trick. 19:54:27 pkhuong: re toplevelness, yeah. I was thinking "an empty let is just like a progn...". but isn't of course, per spec. :/ too much scheme lately. 19:54:54 and to wait on a pipe to know when to resume execution. 19:54:58 stassats: you're repeating all of the work that's on the server side? 19:55:36 bougyman: i don't want to send commands which i know are bogus 19:55:37 mncharity: an empty let is most definitely not like a begin in scheme either. 19:55:57 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:21 pkhuong: ah. I missed the start of the conversation, so thought you were talking of heap exhaustion. is there some particular bug with the current stop-the-world? 19:56:43 stassats: it's just a lot of maintenance. 19:57:03 (I'd always figured the magic page fault trick to be for performance, not robustness) 19:58:00 bougyman: mpd isn't changing its command set every month 19:58:07 jsnell: that'd let us remove pseudoatomic sequences and open the door to more precision. 19:58:47 not that you missed any conversation; I was discussing that elsewhere. 19:58:50 right, removing pa is the performance benefit. but how does it give accuracy? 19:59:49 -!- birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:59:51 bougyman: if i'm writing a program that uses it, i think i'd tend to write against some set of known defined commands rather than whatever the server sends along. if the server sends stuff i don't know about it, i can't write programs using those commands anyway. 20:00:37 jsnell: if we only have a few places where execution can be interrupted, associating IPs to a description of the register/stack layout becomes feasible. 20:00:52 rickardg [n=user@c-e51ae455.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:01:01 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:01:25 how does ccl do its precise collector? 20:01:30 ok, fair enough 20:01:58 I already have a patch that segregates descriptor and non-descriptor stack TNs, but nyef mentioned that even without foreign code, we had trouble getting precise backtraces during unwinds 20:02:09 pkhuong: two bits, my "but isn't of course" misses the point, given earlier suggestions to watch out for large progns. ie, form size, rather than toplevelness would seem the issue. re scheme, I certainly could be wrong, but I believe (let() X) is identical to ((lambda()X)) and thus to X. you dialectical mileage may vary. 20:02:16 presumably every foreign call place will also need a register 20:02:18 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:02:20 stack map 20:02:29 grr... 20:02:34 "a register or stack map" 20:03:14 jsnell: mega recently posted a patch that saves IP/SP around foreign calls. 20:04:00 mncharity: internal defines. 20:04:20 I was thinking of this from a different angle. do we really want to wait for gc until all foreign calls return? 20:04:32 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:43 I'm kind of thinking not, but it seems hard to make thing safe if we don't stop those threads 20:05:13 sabetts: hi. did you get my message about your latest (few weeks ago) clx bug? 20:05:34 well, it was pointed out in a previous discussion on the topic that programs that passes pointers to unpinned values to foreign code deserve to die. 20:05:45 Krystof: where'd you send it? 20:05:55 sabetts @ gmail.com 20:05:58 16th September 20:06:23 Krystof: hmm, maybe it got spammed by accident 20:07:08 jsnell: but yeah, we'd need stack maps in call VOPs too. 20:07:23 __name___ [n=name@chello062178002083.1.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 20:07:38 Xach: thanks for the load-time macro fu, i didn't know about macrolets at all, that's great. 20:08:13 and some way of stopping the threads whenever they try to re-enter lisp by any way (return from ffi call, enter signal handler, etc). presumably with the page fault trick too 20:08:13 i use it from time to time when i have a set of very similar functions but don't need a named, general macro to write them. 20:08:25 -!- __name__ [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:08:38 -!- __name___ [n=name@chello062178002083.1.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 20:08:48 jsnell: right. 20:08:50 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 20:09:13 why use pipes for waking up the threads instead of eg. semaphores? 20:09:42 pkhuong: re internal defines, eeep, yes - since r5rs. ok, nm. 20:10:16 I'm no good at system programming. read/write are safe to use from handlers, and I can understand them (: 20:11:30 Krystof: what's your email or the topic of that mail? 20:11:41 my thinking is that everything is in practice safe in a synchronous signal handler 20:11:41 -!- gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-55-51-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:12:42 gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-55-51-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:52 is there a way to export a symbol from a package other than in defpackage? 20:13:03 clhs export 20:13:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_export.htm 20:13:05 bougyman: via EXPORT 20:13:20 i just got an error on that usage, musta used it wrong. 20:13:25 bougyman: i'm not a big fan of that style...i like having defpackage as a guide for exported stuff. 20:14:35 (you could put a check for exportedness in define-command to help keep things straight...) 20:14:47 -!- mncharity [n=jobsearc@c-98-216-110-149.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:14:56 From: Christophe Rhodes 20:14:56 Subject: Re: [Portable-clx] :destroy-notify weirdness 20:15:12 sabetts: I can resend if you want 20:15:54 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:16:47 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:44 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-96.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:38 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:26:28 prxq [n=mommer@Xc8be.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 20:26:34 -!- prxq [n=mommer@Xc8be.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:21 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:45 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 20:33:03 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:33:29 -!- gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-55-51-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:33:54 gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-55-51-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:00 prxq [n=mommer@Xc8be.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 20:35:20 pkhuong: sounds scary. context? 20:38:59 pkhuong: never mind. 20:41:31 -!- prxq [n=mommer@Xc8be.x.pppool.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:42:40 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:45:55 Krystof: ahh, yes i did get that email. i thought krystof and christophe rhodes were 2 different ppl :) 20:47:54 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-14-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 20:50:09 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-5-220.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:51:21 -!- chitech [n=khuongdp@0x573a1fb3.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:53:09 sabetts: careful, Xof may be listening in (: 20:53:37 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092414]"] 20:53:42 antifuchs: hehe, i think that's why i thought they were different 20:59:35 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:32 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:02:28 if only I did have 48 hours a day 21:04:01 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:04:29 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:05:06 anybody have an idea what's up with the sf mailing list's repeating today? 21:06:10 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:06:27 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:53 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45D67.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:09:01 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2C101.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:10:07 FirstLight [n=fr33fall@95-201-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:21 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.127.104.13] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:10:25 oh wow, I am seeing this after all. looks quite goofy 21:11:13 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:46 <_3b> been getting some week late deliveries from sf lists lately too 21:12:06 -!- FirstLight [n=fr33fall@95-201-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:12:25 guess I've been lucky so far 21:12:26 it seems they are tuning the usability of their site (: 21:14:03 tuning it down. 21:14:25 I would have thought that to be difficult 21:14:33 but they managed it anyway 21:14:36 did anybody come up with a specification for a mechanism for portably detecting whether an implementation implements a specific CDR? 21:14:42 their last redesign has already improved hilarity by an order of magnitude 21:14:56 I don't know how they are going to go even further (: 21:15:41 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:15:52 for me SF was unusable with ABCL 21:16:30 do we need a package called CDR which implements functions to allow feature inspection? 21:16:44 ehu: I wrote this up once: http://www.progn.net/static/tmp/cdr-feature-cdr.txt 21:16:53 that would badly interact with *features*... 21:17:03 oh. wow. lemme check 21:17:11 -!- Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-109-200.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has left #lisp 21:17:47 basically, asking CDR document authors to say "please push CDR- onto *FEATURES* if you implement this". 21:19:39 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 21:19:46 kreuter: what's keeping you from submission? 21:19:58 *ehu* scanned the document: it looks good 21:20:32 the only feedback I got was negative, and I guess I discourage easily. 21:21:50 negative in what way? I mean say that I'll implement the proposed CDR-6 in ABCL: how will slime know if it's looking at a supporting ABCL version? 21:22:03 (other than hard-coding version numbers) 21:22:58 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:23:23 -!- gashale [n=kvirc@81-208-31-216.ip.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 21:24:26 ehu: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/cdr-discuss/2007-August/000052.html 21:25:57 -!- rickardg [n=user@c-e51ae455.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:27:15 anyway, nothing prevents you from using :CDR-6 in *FEATURES* to tell SLIME that you implement *INSPECTOR-HOOK*. 21:28:26 ehu: Look at sbcl-with-symbol in swank-sbcl.lisp 21:28:43 minunea_konsole [n=yaib@86.120.70.89] has joined #lisp 21:29:18 ehu: Basically, you'd write #+#.(swank-backend::abcl-with-symbol '*inspector-hook* 'extensions) (defimplementation call-with-inspector-hook (...) ...) 21:30:32 tcr: clisp, with its current standard readtable makes it easy to get readtables equivalent to the initial readtable.. with a stricter standard readtable that'll suffer 21:30:36 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ca963c709f21e83f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:32:25 tcr: access to the initial readtable at any time is also something lacking from CL 21:32:34 Indeed. 21:32:42 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:32:49 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:33:23 PERR0_HUNTER [n=pepper@189.169.79.89] has joined #lisp 21:33:25 hello 21:33:26 most people seem to interpret "the standard readtable" as "the initial readtable". 21:34:33 ths [n=ths@X5070.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 21:34:34 tcr: where is your git repository? 21:34:50 repo.or.cz 21:34:51 (for SBCL) 21:35:00 kreuter: in what respect? it's obviously not the initial readtable.. 21:35:06 http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/tcr.git 21:36:39 kreuter: We can go through the changes tomorrow. I've got to go to bed now, as I've have to wake up early tomorrow. 21:36:51 tcr: okay, that sounds good. 21:37:06 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:03 conrad` [n=conrad@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:05 -!- conrad` [n=conrad@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 21:38:06 -!- PERR0_HUNTER [n=pepper@189.169.79.89] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:25 -!- minunea_konsole [n=yaib@86.120.70.89] has left #lisp 21:38:28 persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:29 PERR0_HUNTER [n=pepper@189.169.79.89] has joined #lisp 21:39:08 kreuter: tcr-reader-hacking contains cleanups of reader.lisp; package-cleaning contains moving the reader into sb-reader (depends on tcr-reader-hacking), and with-readtable-iterator contains the implementation of the w-r-i cdr (also depends on tcr-reader-hacking) 21:40:00 -!- user___ [n=user@p54926BDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:40:32 Excuse me just jumping right in. Is there a better way to do: (let ((s nil)) ((lambda (&rest args) (apply (if s #'+ #'-) args)) 1 2)) 21:40:37 (let ((s nil)) ((lambda (&rest args) (apply (if s #'+ #'-) args)) 1 2)) 21:41:11 What is that supposed to do? What are you actually trying to do? 21:41:33 I have long function call like (foo 1 2 3 4 5 6 7) and need to call with the same arguments bar once in a while. 21:41:48 Dont want to write (if s (foo ...) (bar ...)). 21:42:08 ths_ [n=ths@X5070.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 21:42:47 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:51 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:42:54 In a scheme like would be. ((if s 'foo 'bar) 1 2 3 4 5) 21:43:09 dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has joined #lisp 21:43:14 (let (s) (funcall (if s #'+ #'-) 1 2)) 21:43:41 duh! 21:43:48 stassats: thanks much! 21:44:46 doh/duh 21:48:53 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:13 adeht: I take back what I said about readtables. 21:49:58 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 21:49:58 -!- gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-55-51-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:50:21 gonzojive [n=red@75.55.51.80] has joined #lisp 21:50:44 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-145.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:48 however, I think the glossary entry for "standard readtable" makes it unnecessarily unclear what counts as "the standard readtable". 21:51:15 dkcl [n=dkcl@28.66.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:51:42 adeht: Clisp could export an *initial-readtable*; but I guess this makes our wished change more impalatable. 21:51:46 gonzojive_ [n=red@75.55.51.80] has joined #lisp 21:52:08 Krystof: patch sent 21:52:20 kreuter: "conforms to standard syntax" is very weasel-wordy, too. 21:52:41 -!- bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has quit ["leaving"] 21:52:41 but we had that discussion yesterday 21:52:57 oh, I missed that. 21:53:33 -!- rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:40 tcr: right 21:54:13 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@75.55.51.80] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:54:19 bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:27 tcr: how big a change is splitting the reader into sb-reader? 21:54:58 for example, does any of the packages in clbuild break? 21:55:02 gonzojive_ [n=red@adsl-75-55-51-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:27 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:55:30 tcr: ah, we can discuss this tomorrow. 21:56:17 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@28.66.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:56:27 dkcl [n=dkcl@28.66.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:56:52 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-056-045.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:58:09 gonzojive__ [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:15 alexandria breaks because it uses a condition from sb-int which I moved to sb-reader; if backwards compability is wished for, sb-int could just reexport that condition along side of sb-reader. 21:58:31 -!- ths [n=ths@X5070.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:58:43 sykopomp: Just a note before I leave. I finally switched to Arch and learned how to use asdf. I'm happy as ever :) 21:58:53 great :) 21:59:07 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-197-39-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 21:59:29 sykopomp: See ya some other day :) 21:59:48 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:49 tcr: groan. let's talk about this tomorrow. 22:00:31 Right, I'm out. 22:00:37 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:01:02 mozzyb [n=mozzyb@180.84-48-169.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:37 esse_eh_o_samba_ [n=dqzgxb@200-199-78-155.user.neoline.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:04:51 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:24 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:54 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-14-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:07:35 -!- dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:02 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:08 -!- gonzojive__ [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:10:30 -!- esse_eh_o_samba_ [n=dqzgxb@200-199-78-155.user.neoline.com.br] has quit [Client Quit] 22:10:38 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:55 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:11:17 -!- gonzojive [n=red@75.55.51.80] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:04 -!- nickga [n=nick@93-97-121-81.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:12:37 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:13:12 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:13:18 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:14:43 Tordek [n=tordek@host172.190-137-247.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:16:52 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@adsl-75-55-51-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:12 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24:32 -!- mozzyb [n=mozzyb@180.84-48-169.nextgentel.com] has quit ["leaving"] 22:26:49 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has joined #lisp 22:33:38 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:36:44 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-17.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:36:47 birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 22:37:02 I hate when lisp gives me a completely and utterly unreadable traceback that doesn't give me even the slightest clue of where an error might be. 22:37:38 sykopomp: not lisp. A specific implementation of lisp. 22:37:43 Which one? 22:37:46 sbcl 22:37:47 :| 22:37:49 this is when you paste it to lisppaste (: 22:37:57 Or switch to clisp. 22:39:33 sykopomp pasted "unreadable traceback. What's getting called?!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68002 22:40:28 that's what I get for using continuations + threads, I guess 22:40:29 22:40:32 nice (: 22:40:45 does "v" on any of the frames in the backtrace give you anything meaningful? 22:40:54 sec 22:42:01 wow. Not in the least 22:42:07 hmpf. 22:42:22 you could try declaiming a higher debug value 22:42:31 (and recompiling) 22:42:38 there's something, though 22:42:50 something binds SYSKOMATIC::AVATAR 22:42:53 I can't believe it won't even tell me what function is the one getting called with the wrong number of arguments 22:42:58 erm, syksomatic. 22:43:28 anyway, it would be in the places that have this binding, probably in a form that expands to with-recursive-lock 22:44:05 *sykopomp* cries 22:44:11 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 22:44:28 sykopomp: check who's using the "client-list-lock" 22:44:39 actually, it does tell you which it calls with the wrong number of args 22:44:43 it's the top frame, no? 22:45:01 that lambda takes 2 args, and gets just one, that function. 22:45:04 ...and not an avatar 22:45:40 clhs empty? 22:45:42 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for empty?. 22:45:46 clhs empty 22:45:46 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for empty. 22:46:00 PERR0_HUNTER: (zerop (length something))? 22:46:01 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:34 I got an example that says ( if(empty ? wd)(or #f bool) 22:46:40 I dont understand the ? 22:46:44 that looks like scheme 22:46:55 r5rs empty 22:46:56 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for empty. 22:47:21 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:47:22 sykopomp: so, two useful places to look: things that use both the client-list-lock, and a variable called avatar 22:47:56 ...and are calling a function with one argument where it expects two, of course. did you see a style warning at compilation, maybe? 22:50:11 PERR0_HUNTER: in Common Lisp, empty? is ENDP. 22:50:15 ....it stopped happening. 22:50:15 what the heck 22:51:09 PERR0_HUNTER: in lisp (eg. Common Lisp, or Scheme), any character is valid in the symbol names. If you fancy using ? or ! or * or anything else in symbol names, up to you. 22:51:29 sykopomp: did you recompile anything? 22:51:35 PERR0_HUNTER: Scheme likes to use a postfix ? where CL would use a postfix P or -P. 22:51:53 I reloaded it. I'm so confused :| 22:51:57 They have no meaning, for the lisp language. 22:52:04 but hey. If it works... 22:52:18 dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has joined #lisp 22:52:28 sykopomp: yeah; could be that you changed a function definition once and didn't recompile all call places? 22:52:43 that's possible 22:52:49 that's a pretty big relief :-\ 22:53:01 heh 22:53:08 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 22:53:37 with every backtrace, you'll see more things that you can use the next time (: 22:53:55 chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 22:55:20 dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:55:51 *rvirding* says good night all 22:56:05 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 22:58:58 esse_eh_o_samba_ [n=dqzgxb@200-199-78-155.user.neoline.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:00:08 -!- esse_eh_o_samba_ is now known as edudius 23:00:26 rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:51 r5rs empty? 23:00:51 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for empty?. 23:01:31 how do you use booleans ? 23:05:43 -!- edudius is now known as ehello 23:05:50 hello everybody 23:06:29 -!- ehello is now known as edudius_ 23:06:42 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:13 gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-55-51-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:21 -!- solus [n=solus@cpe-66-69-208-12.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:59 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:02 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAC28C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:15:19 PERR0_HUNTER: with boolean operators. 23:15:32 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:15:32 PERR0_HUNTER: AND, OR, NOT, IF, COND. 23:16:01 union, subtract, difference? 23:16:37 -!- dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:17:23 Can I make a hash-table without using (make-hash-table) like this? #(...) 23:17:23 tomoyuki28jp, memo from pjb: but if you have a property list, some values may be keywords. Are you sure you want to keep them? If not, remove-if-not won't do. Try: (loop for (k v) :on plist :by (function cddr) :collect k) 23:17:48 tomoyuki28jp: you could, if you defined a reader macro to build your hash-table from some syntax. 23:18:43 minion: Thanks a lot for the memo! appreciate it. 23:18:43 no problem 23:19:02 Is that a bot?? 23:19:06 Yes. 23:19:12 oh, ic 23:19:22 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:41 pjb: Thanks for the info regarding hash-table. 23:19:42 tomoyuki28jp: In clisp, there's a reader syntax for hash-tables: #S(HASH-TABLE :TEST EQUALP (k1 . v1) (k2 . v2) ...) 23:19:57 oh, but not a common one? 23:20:04 Nothing in CLHS. 23:20:10 ic 23:20:20 tomoyuki28jp: it's trivial to write a reader macro. 23:20:39 tomoyuki28jp: also, an alternative, is to use #. 23:20:44 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:20:46 pjb: yeah 23:21:22 pjb: You mean use a vector instead of a hash-table? 23:21:45 Hash-table is mush faster than a vector dot list? 23:21:45 #.(htable '(k1 v1 k2 v2) :test (function equal)) ; just define the HTABLE function. 23:21:59 what does "vector dot list" mean? 23:22:15 like #((key . "value")) 23:22:30 depends for what kind of accesses. 23:22:43 yeah, you are right 23:23:07 Is it possible to have an asdf module depend on another module? (didn't find anything in the manual) 23:23:57 pjb: What does the #. mean?? 23:23:59 tomoyuki28jp: in the Alexandra library, there's a function like HTABLE. 23:24:05 clhs #. 23:24:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 23:24:38 #. reads a form, evaluates it, and returns the result as object read. 23:24:49 (read-from-string "#.(+ 1 2)") --> 3 23:24:58 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 23:26:27 pjb: oh, I see. thanks. Maybe I can use that and put it inside of eval-when form then. 23:26:54 -!- thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@unaffiliated/printk] has quit ["Changing server"] 23:26:56 tomoyuki28jp: #. evaluates the expression when it is read. eval-when comes too late. 23:27:30 #. looks really handy 23:28:46 pjb: oh really? If so, using (make-hash-table) in eval-when form will be faster than that, right? Eval is usually slow. 23:29:18 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:29:18 tomoyuki28jp: faster WHEN? 23:29:43 hint, hint 23:30:20 pjb: If we already make hash table when we compile the program, we don't have to eval the #'() thing when we really need it. Am I wrong? 23:30:36 s/#'()/#.()/ 23:30:52 #. evaluates its form when it is read. 23:31:09 tomoyuki28jp: you're very probably worrying about unimportant stuff. 23:31:09 The source of a program is read long before it is compiled. 23:31:27 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:31:52 pjb: I understand it. thanks 23:33:30 thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@unaffiliated/printk] has joined #lisp 23:37:23 #'hash-table 23:37:24 maybe its too early in the morning for me, but when would read-time evaluation be useful? 23:37:39 hey, how would I purge all defined functions and variables in a REPL 23:37:45 why not eval with the rest of the code, or at compile time 23:38:03 #'hash-table 23:38:16 pjb pasted "times" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68004 23:39:20 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:39:39 egn: you really don't want to do that. (do-symbol (s) (if (fboundp s) (fmakubound s)) (if (boundp s) (makunbound s))) Think about it! What do you really want to do? 23:39:50 Ijeroj__: yes, just do it like you do for individual files, but in the :module expr. (:module "foo") (:module "bar" :depends-on ("foo")) (syntax may not be exact) 23:40:49 pjb: pretty much I just want to purge everything and start fresh. there have been a few instances where I just end up exiting and re (load)ing my functions from file 23:40:59 Aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-23-56.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:27 egn: have a look at mkupack in http://darcs.informatimago.com/darcs/lisp/common-lisp/interactive.lisp 23:42:04 pjb: thanks 23:42:07 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CDA1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:42:40 minion: tell Aszarsha about clbuild 23:42:41 Aszarsha: have a look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 23:43:12 kpreid: Strange, I get an error from asdf, telling me it could not find the dependency of "bar" which is "foo" in: ((module :core :componens (:file "foo")) (module :other :components (:file "bar" :depends-on "foo") :depends-on (:core))) 23:44:19 tomoyuki28jp: are you trying to get the CLHS page about hash-table with your #'hash-table? 23:44:51 -!- PERR0_HUNTER [n=pepper@189.169.79.89] has quit [] 23:45:18 pjb: Oh, no. Sorry I made mistake. I was trying to put that on my repl.. 23:45:29 ok. 23:46:46 -!- gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-55-51-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:46:57 gonzojive [n=red@75.55.51.80] has joined #lisp 23:47:41 Ijeroj__: you can have dependencies between modules, but not dependencies between files in different modules. just take out :depends-on "foo" 23:48:04 kpreid: Ah, ok. Thanks alot. 23:49:26 Ijeroj__: asdf is quite uniform in this. systems depend on systems, modules depend on modules, files depend on files 23:49:42 (well, I expect that if you had a file and a module at the same level they could depend on each other) 23:49:56 I'll keep that in mind :) 23:49:58 (er, one could depend on the other...can't have circularity :) 23:52:26 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 23:52:36 By the way, I was trying to use iolib rather than threads to create a http server. As H4ns told me, I felt it is a good idea, but it looks a bit more difficult. iolib has no docs, and maybe I have to write mode code to handle events. I had been struggling for the past two days. 23:53:09 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:53:15 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 23:53:47 Thx minion 23:55:06 tomoyuki28jp: it will be easier to get something to run with threads, but it will be harder to make it robust. 23:55:24 tomoyuki28jp: if you're just looking for some good old fun, use bordeaux-threads 23:55:49 tomoyuki28jp: or maybe even better, use clozure cl which has a process abstraction, nice synchronization primitives and a manual. 23:56:06 H4ns: Oh you are here. Thanks for the info. 23:57:03 H4ns: I had been reading the source code of iolib and sw-http for the past two days. I understood why iolib is better. That's really cool. 23:58:38 tomoyuki28jp: "better" does not always mean "practical" :) 23:59:51 gonzojive_ [n=red@75.55.51.80] has joined #lisp 23:59:51 -!- gonzojive [n=red@75.55.51.80] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]