00:01:01 Xach: oopsla? 00:01:01 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.147] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:01:04 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:01:15 lukego: no can do, sorry. 00:01:20 lukego: ILC09 for sure though 00:01:32 who's #lisp ringleader for oopsla? sellout? 00:01:48 hmm, not sure...sellout's a good ringleader though 00:01:58 *rtoym* is still not sure if he can go to oopsla. Bad planning on his part. 00:02:15 Hello, lukego 00:02:43 stassats`: also, usocket doesn't support ecl from what i can tell 00:02:47 rtoym! long time, you've even grown a new letter :) 00:03:32 Long time indeed! The extra letter is for my mac, as opposed to me from work. 00:03:39 metasyntax [n=taylor@71.188.161.219] has joined #lisp 00:04:21 still hacking at ericsson in NC? active with lisp? 00:04:31 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483DB6E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:04:48 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:05:11 lukego: When will you be there? 00:05:12 -!- lichtblau [n=user@pD954311B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:50 I'm in LA now and I'll be in Nashville from the prior saturday to the day after lisp50, not attending any other bits of oopsla 00:06:26 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:49 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:56 actually I'm in San Jose right now about to meet up with timjr but I'm usually in LA lately :) 00:07:32 Nashville is an 8 hour drive for me. But I'm essentially out of vacation time. 00:09:11 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 00:09:12 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.4] has quit [] 00:16:05 -!- asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:16:08 -!- prxq [n=mommer@BAI3493.bai.pppool.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:17:01 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:31 -!- MHOOO [n=yeh@3-028.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:39 -!- aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:30 -!- bryteise [n=bryteise@c-76-115-234-122.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:34:17 pstickne [n=pstickne@71.236.177.238] has joined #lisp 00:35:00 -!- jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:04 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 00:38:29 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-75-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 00:40:14 bpr [n=user@cpe-72-226-72-222.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:19 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:29 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-206-234-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:33 sellout: howdy! I'm heading to oopsla's lisp50 now and arriving the saturday before. want to grab a beer or two? :) 00:44:58 alec_ [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-161.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:17 lukego: cool. I'm getting there on Saturday too. Beer sounds great. 00:45:30 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:45:45 -!- alec_ [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-161.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:46:08 have a spare bed in your hotel room? :-) 00:46:16 *Xach* submits his first ecl patch, crosses fingers 00:46:39 Also, I'm going to try to get out climbing a couple times while I'm there (hopefully one evening at a gym, and one outdoors at King's Bluff). Still need to find a local climber, but if you want to come along, that'd be cool. 00:46:45 lukego: Not sure. Lemme check. 00:46:53 does lukego scale? 00:47:04 alec [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-161.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:12 I've only been climbing once, I was totally outdone by a 15 year old kid from new york :) 00:47:29 Xach: you're a machine! 00:47:35 lukego: it says I have a 1 king or 2 queen room. 00:47:43 I'll call and try to specifically get the 2 queen 00:47:44 pkhuong: what kind of machine? 00:47:52 Xach: a patch writing one. 00:48:03 my patches sometimes fall on deaf mailboxes 00:48:04 sellout: if that's convenient I'd be glad to mooch, but it's not critical so don't put yourself out :) 00:48:50 lukego: No worries. 00:49:38 lukego: i've just started climbing. know a good group of climbers in LA if you're interested. 00:50:08 I'm not hyper-enthusiastic about climbing since climbers seem to have a lot of 1st or 2nd hand broken-lots-of-bone stories. I like diving :) 00:50:24 lemonodor: I've started planning a trip to Yosemite, thanks to your photos. 00:51:29 *Xach* is digging ecl 00:52:29 Xach: what're you doing with it? 00:52:35 Also, I thought this was Clojure week! 00:52:40 *stassats`* just removed split-sequence dependency from usocket, let's see if it breaks something 00:52:53 sellout: the same thing i do with every lisp implementation...take over the world! 00:53:22 ecl is pretty neat 00:53:43 it's slow as hell if you use it to build sbcl unfortunately 00:53:46 sellout: i'm doing a proof-of-concept small 8-lisp portable file that can fetch some stuff from the web to bootstrap into a more interesting system 00:54:02 (8 lisps supported so far, maybe more if it's not too tricky) 00:54:14 ah, nice 00:54:17 sellout: cool 00:54:33 Xach: multiple implementations? You're failing at dictatorship. 00:54:50 lemonodor: Also, the climbing will be great there when here is too wet for rocks and too warm for ice. 00:55:02 pkhuong: oh, but i control the cloud 00:55:09 *and* i'm a natalist 00:55:31 oops, only 6 lisps actually. 00:56:39 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:40 *Xach* has it fetching a tar-like-but-simpler file that contains chipz, unpacking it and loading chipz, then uncompressing a bigger and more interesting file that contains archive and more, so gzipped tarballs can be fetched and processed 00:57:50 and then it bootstraps into reasonable life? 00:58:16 sadly, i don't think even i can write a program that gives a lisp hacker a life 00:58:51 stassats`: that's all it does so far. there's a long way to go, but i'm pleased with what's working. 00:59:23 conway's life will be sufficient for the lisp hacker 01:00:41 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:01:44 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF7D59.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:01:50 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 01:03:14 -!- davo [n=davo@ip68-6-224-17.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:05:39 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:25 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:12:27 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:13:02 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-78-193.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:13:24 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@c-24-6-164-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:00 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:24:47 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 01:25:35 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:25:35 -!- bpr [n=user@cpe-72-226-72-222.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:29:01 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:29:52 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-14-237.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:03 chris_foster [n=chris@66.183.236.104] has joined #lisp 01:40:43 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:40:52 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:37 Hi, I've recently developed a curiosity for lisp, and I've learnt one of it's major uses is programming Artificial Intellegence. My question is, could lisp be used to program a MMORPG (wow, runescape, etc) bot? I have heard of programs to do this, but I'm guessing they would be pretty un-flexible, so I would perfer a programing language. All I would need is for the script to control my mouse to click in designated spots at designated times. Is lisp 01:43:37 capable of that, and how much work would it be compared to any other language? Thanks 01:44:55 depends on how you send windowing events 01:45:20 it will be equally difficult in any langauge 01:45:26 it would probably be easier in something that already has the interfaces you need to the operating system 01:45:42 on unix + x you can use xtest 01:45:48 but i am assuming this is Windows 01:45:51 in which case, i don't know 01:45:52 bpr [n=user@cpe-72-226-72-222.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:53 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:48:35 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:42 I'm running kubuntu 8.04 01:49:05 what is a windowing event? 01:49:14 thanks for the response btw 01:49:21 most the other channels are dead 01:51:38 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:51:57 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:53:58 it is friday night :) 01:54:30 lol, yeah i forgot about that 01:54:37 but basically, if you are on UNIX, using Lisp to move the mouse is possible 01:54:48 but you may need to, for example, write cffi bindings for the xtest library 01:54:53 not as difficult as it sounds, actually 01:55:04 but it may not be a good "first lisp project" :) 01:55:08 Boomer [n=browning@adsl-76-243-208-202.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:12 -!- birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:55:13 lol, okay 01:55:16 write x-server 01:55:18 in lisp 01:55:28 stassats`: how would that help? 01:55:31 is lisp relatively easy to learn (compared to C) 01:55:39 -!- Boomer is now known as Guest51708 01:55:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Client Quit] 01:56:08 I have some knowledge in python and I can write easily in basic (damn windows made it hard to learn python) 01:56:12 pkhuong: you get a way to interact with windows 01:56:33 stassats`: sure, you get to create and fill them. 01:57:10 -!- Guest51708 [n=browning@adsl-76-243-208-202.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 01:57:21 *rtoym* found Lisp to be somewhat hard, coming from a C background 01:57:27 !?! 01:57:42 it is easier to write correct code in lisp than it is to write it in C :) 01:58:23 okay, could you recommed a good lisp tutorial for me, please. I think it would be interesting to learn. 01:58:31 Maybe so, but everything is different, so it takes time to learn. 01:58:37 minion: tell chris_foster about pcl 01:58:37 chris_foster: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 01:58:48 chris_foster: for this stuff, you can probably just use CLX (rather than xtest or whatever) 01:58:57 clx send-event 01:59:04 is clx part of lisp? 01:59:09 specbot: hi there. 01:59:25 http://hoopajoo.net/projects/xautomation.html 01:59:34 Yay! It's building. 01:59:39 chris_foster: it's a library 02:00:02 okay, thanks all of you guys. I'm gonna go learn lisp 02:00:07 :) 02:00:18 Oh, dang. No it's not. 02:00:38 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-8d5f7b0413b539a4] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:00:45 fwiw, you can probably accomplish this task in python as well 02:00:58 lisp is not "magical", it's just a nice programming language 02:02:06 -!- chris_foster [n=chris@66.183.236.104] has left #lisp 02:02:21 Boomer [n=browning@adsl-76-243-208-202.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:31 -!- Boomer [n=browning@adsl-76-243-208-202.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 02:03:52 DrTilt [n=browning@adsl-76-243-208-202.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:30 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 02:11:21 -!- milanj- [n=milan@77.46.251.147] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:13:01 AWizzArd [n=wizzy@98-202-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:16 clhs prog2 02:18:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog1c.htm 02:18:31 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAF8D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:23:34 -!- lemonodor 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it with 'slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol 02:31:45 I think I use M-tab for that. 02:32:19 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:32:23 stassats`: that was what I also used a long time.. but I just checked out slime from cvs and there a slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol seems to not exist anymore 02:32:40 AWizzArd: it is in contrib 02:33:12 use (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) or (slime-setup '(slime-fuzzy)) 02:33:16 stassats`: oh oki, I will try that 02:35:17 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 02:38:00 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:38:17 stassats`: yes works, thanks 02:38:54 -!- DrTilt [n=browning@adsl-76-243-208-202.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:43:07 Zhivago: Around? 02:43:14 willb [n=wibenton@69.129.204.3] has joined #lisp 02:46:21 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:52:46 Isn't it C-c M-i for fuzzy-complete by default? 02:53:20 pkhuong: I did not include (slime-setup ...) in my .emacs 02:53:25 don't you mean `C-c C-i'? 02:53:46 Now as I did it works. 02:54:12 adeht: slime-fuzzy.el says that (require 'slime-fuzzy) adds the command C-c M-i 02:54:25 AWizzArd: that's either outdated or a very old version. 02:54:32 adeht: C-c C-i is C-c Tab. 02:54:51 pkhuong: that's what I use for symbol completion; but I don't use fuzzy completion. 02:55:22 pkhuong: its fresh from cvs 02:56:20 pkhuong: I now see that slime-fuzzy uses the keybinding you referred to. 02:56:57 -!- liemaj2 [n=e@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:57:08 adeht: but what is C-c C-i then? 02:58:13 -!- tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:58:15 awizzard: like pkhuong said, it's the same as `C-c TAB'. 02:58:48 which by default is bound to `slime-complete-symbol'. 02:59:50 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 02:59:56 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:00:05 And how can I get C-c M-q to work again, so it will autoindent the form and fill in all missing closing parens? 03:00:33 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 03:00:47 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has left #lisp 03:01:37 AWizzArd: it is C-c C-] now 03:01:40 awizzard: that's the `slime-editing-commands' contrib. 03:02:01 stassats: nope 03:02:29 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 03:03:39 adeht: and what it is now? 03:04:28 stassats: same keybinding; just need the contrib 03:06:02 C-c C-] only closes parens, right 03:06:58 anyway, paredit is better 03:07:31 uh 03:07:49 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:09:56 Hmm, (require 'slime-editing-commands) is implicit in slime-fancy as it seems, but this key combo does not work for me 03:10:17 Renatobico [n=t7DS@nbru03-1092.dial.bru.embratel.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:11:25 that's because you should use `slime-setup' to load the contribs.. it also calls `slime-editing-commands-init'. 03:12:21 there are some init functions commented in `slime-fancy'. 03:12:32 -!- beach` is now known as beach 03:12:58 good morning 03:13:25 Moin beach 03:14:19 awizzard: it's a bit messy. I don't use `slime-fancy', but list all the contribs I want explicitly. 03:14:49 thom_logn [n=thom@96.229.99.100] has joined #lisp 03:16:47 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@96.229.99.100] has quit [Client Quit] 03:17:13 -!- willb [n=wibenton@69.129.204.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:18:20 adeht: even when I include (slime-setup '(slime-editing-commands)) in my .emacs it wont install this key combo. 03:18:28 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 03:20:01 awizzard: really? what does it say when you do `C-h k C-c M-q' ? 03:21:14 Emacs answers: C-c M-q is undefined 03:21:27 are you in a slime buffer? 03:21:31 yes 03:22:20 do `M-: (slime-editing-commands-init) RET' and try again 03:22:25 Other stuff works now, like: C-h k C-tab (which is now slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol) 03:24:01 still is undefined 03:24:33 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:24:39 weird. 03:25:16 She pasted "ATP" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67904 03:29:06 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:29:56 adeht: at the end of slime-editing-commands.el I see: (define-key slime-mode-map "\C-c\M-q" 'slime-reindent-defun) 03:30:27 right 03:30:34 so why isn't it working? 03:30:41 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:30:42 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:51 I can call this manually via M-x slime-reindent-defun. What it does is closing all needed parens, but it is not indenting anything. 03:32:18 awizzard: wfm :/ 03:32:28 and for me 03:32:58 awizzard: maybe consider (ugh) restarting (ugh) emacs? 03:33:00 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:33:01 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 03:33:36 I restarted it several times now 03:33:43 well, what emacs version are you using? 03:33:45 in the past 30 minutes I mean 03:34:05 21.4.1 03:34:10 whoa 03:34:12 that's old 03:34:14 that's old 03:34:19 hm 03:34:26 upgrade to one of the original lisp machines :) 03:34:49 I use 22.3.1 and it works just fine. 03:35:21 Im still using Ubuntu 7.10, and dont want to upgrade to 8.4 but instead in two weeks directly to 8.10 03:35:31 maybe that will solve this problem 03:35:53 shouldn't be hard to install new emacs anyway 03:35:55 you can also build a newer emacs yourself 03:36:05 ./configure; make bootstrap; make install; 03:36:20 emacs 23 is niiice. 03:36:35 *sykopomp* runs emacs from cvs, weekly update, like a superhero. 03:36:54 sykopomp: I used to do that, but it broke too often. 03:36:59 really? 03:37:04 oh, it breaks all the freakin' time. 03:37:05 i have been very lucky with that strategy 03:37:05 sykopomp: notice any difference? 03:37:16 i have not noticed any serious breakage 03:37:24 stassats`: yeah. Some jerk patched it so that transset/transset-df no longer works on emacs. 03:37:31 Seems they feel entitled to disallow transparency. 03:37:33 :) 03:38:02 also, fonts are nicer than with 22, and I like having the emacs server. 03:38:40 no, i mean between every weekly build 03:38:42 I just use (modified) terminus 03:38:57 oh, none at all. Besides the constant breakage. 03:39:55 the default lambda glyph is ridiculous 03:40:46 emacs daemon is interesting, but i am lazy and don't want to read docs, configure it and catch the bugs 03:41:01 it's pretty easy 03:41:07 M-x server-start 03:41:14 then, in unix: emacsclient -c 03:41:20 and it starts up instantly :) 03:41:26 ah, that, that's old feature 03:41:32 oh <_< 03:41:37 *sykopomp* mutters 03:42:14 the new feature is that you can use that to have the same process driving frames in X and the terminal. 03:42:33 ah, new key '-c', i see 03:42:55 oh 03:43:01 well, that's how I use it 03:43:17 I use emacsclient -t -c when I ssh into my home box 03:43:56 And I run my main emacs session in a screen session. 03:44:04 which means X crash != emacs death 03:44:41 I spend almost all my time in emacs -> X doesn't crash ;) 03:44:54 when disconnecting clients, my emacs dies a horrible flaming death 03:45:02 it is really irritating because i can't figure out exactly why 03:45:13 i have C-x C-c rebound which seems to confuse it 03:45:24 but... why would i waste such a good keybinding for something i never do 03:45:34 do you guys ever work on different things in the same emacs instance? (because I can't stand it, and usually have two or three separate sessions going with different projects) 03:45:42 yes 03:45:49 hefner: one process for everything. 03:45:52 i have irc, emacs, perl repl, slime, lisp project, a few perl work projects, ... 03:45:57 I have one emacs for code, one emacs for IRC, and one emacs for Bitlbee 03:45:59 get yourself iswitchb and be happy :) 03:46:02 hefner: yep 03:46:05 bah 03:46:26 typical emacs session: http://disk.jrock.us/bingo/public/random/irc-color.png 03:46:28 though synchronous stuff sometimes make it painful 03:46:37 I was running them all on one instance, but one of the three things would kill EVERYTHING, and having 3 emacsclients running really lagged up 03:46:39 (no comments on the lisp. it's stolen from the emacswiki :P) 03:47:07 i also got xmonad to remove the border around full-screen windows recently :) 03:47:32 jrockway: so slime doesn't wreck your window layout every 30 seconds? :) 03:47:33 now emacs is 6240 pixels bigger! 03:47:39 hefner: yes, it does 03:47:51 it doesn't wreck it, but it randomly pops up restart suggestions in random windows 03:47:58 gnus wrecks the fuck out of it though 03:48:01 -!- ramus is now known as ramus` 03:48:10 gnus should rename itself to "random delete jrockway's windows for no fucking reason" 03:48:19 heh 03:48:33 it is a little annoying 03:48:35 I still can't figure out how to configure gnus :( 03:48:41 I wish I could stop using thunderbird already 03:48:51 but i have shift- to switch between windows, and it is too convenient 03:49:04 (if i didn't use that, i could make 3 frames. then gnus and slime would do the right thing) 03:49:28 it is on my list of "something to fix someday" 03:49:45 I simply don't keep gnus running at all times. 03:49:47 i believe there are helpful functions in ... ecb ... i think 03:50:19 adeht: gnus random deletes my windows when i reply to an email 03:50:31 it also random adds windows when i switch from a group summary back to the list of newsgroups 03:50:38 never experienced that 03:50:43 the behavior is too odd to describe, that's why i haven't fixed it yet 03:51:11 i really need to get slime to split the REPL in half for restarts 03:51:16 and then unsplit when i pick one 03:51:35 (and i need to get git-commit to do that; right now it deletes a random window, requiring like 4 winner-undo's to fix) 03:54:07 I updated to emacs 22.1.1 but unfortunately C-c M-q is still not bound and manually calling slime-reindent-defun only adds missing parens at the end. Any ideas? 03:54:35 FWIW, it doesn't work on my emacs23 either 03:54:52 "symbol's value as a variable is void: major" 03:56:55 envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:56:57 awizzard: you can inspect the slime-mode-map variable, looking for the keybinding.. and fumble with the `slime-reindent-defun' impl. to see what it's doing 03:57:15 but I'm going to sleep now, it's 07:00 ;) 03:57:28 6:00 here in Germany 03:57:39 so, I will better also go to bed now *g* 03:57:43 Thanks and good night 03:57:52 gnite :) 03:58:32 -!- AWizzArd [n=wizzy@98-202-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:01:18 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:04 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:04:52 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 04:05:51 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-161.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:07:45 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:08:13 -!- envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:08:13 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 04:09:39 envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:13:54 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:55 aumontabe [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 04:19:57 PERR0_HUNTER [n=pepper@189.169.79.89] has joined #lisp 04:20:00 ? 04:20:01 hi 04:20:22 If I got 2 arrays , how can I replace arrayA with arrayB ? 04:20:46 clhs replace 04:20:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_replac.htm 04:21:15 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:21:49 (replace arrayA arrayB) 04:22:04 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:22:12 would this be the same as arrayA = arrayB in other procedular language 04:22:13 ? 04:22:41 probably not. it would be the same as assigning all the elements of arrayA to those of arrayB with a loop. 04:22:48 yeah 04:22:55 if you modify arrayA afterwards, arrayB does not change 04:23:01 if you do that in C, it will change both 04:23:08 The problem I have is , arrayA has a diferent size than arrayB 04:23:24 -!- envi_home is now known as envi^home 04:23:38 I'll assume you aren't just looking for (setf arrayA arrayB) 04:24:11 what I tryed was creating arrayB with size (arrayAsize + 1) placing all the arrayA items there plus a new item and now I'd like to replace arrayA 04:24:21 clhs setf 04:24:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_setf.htm 04:24:36 clhs push 04:24:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_push.htm 04:25:53 I think im not allowed to use alrady existing push/pop functions since it is what the homework is about :/ 04:26:14 so im trying to implement a stack on an array 04:26:33 without using list or pop/push 04:26:51 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:26:54 I suppose you can't use vector-push-extent and vector-pop then, either. 04:26:59 (setf foo (cons "thing i am pushing" foo)) ? 04:27:02 nop 04:27:09 then you should do it without our help also 04:27:13 clhs list* 04:27:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_.htm 04:27:19 clhs aref 04:27:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm 04:27:22 you should look into cons and cdr then 04:27:27 on lists 04:27:27 hahaha , i've been trying for several hours now :/ 04:28:35 it is nice to see common lisp being required for homework, though 04:28:40 usually they use scheme 04:28:47 yeah, no doubt 04:28:52 :) 04:28:58 I'm impressed enough that they're using arrays instead of lists. 04:29:27 most beginners that use arrays in lisp use them because they don't understand lists, though 04:29:34 is that a requirement to use arrays? 04:29:36 and are trying to transfer over their java / c "skills" 04:29:44 yeah that's my impression 04:30:02 a list is a much more natural choice, i'd think 04:30:11 well , my professor, just said "impement the function push and pop of a stack" and I assume that if I use the already existing pop and push im not going to look very smart o_o , 04:30:39 you can code that up using lists and cons and cdr and setf 04:30:40 Macroexpand push and pop, then turn that in :p 04:30:41 when I once had to do lisp homework, I got permission to use all of common lisp, and so most problems turned into one or two liners :) 04:30:58 hefner: haha 04:31:18 qbg: evil :) 04:31:31 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4765B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:50 it does expand to what you'd expect though 04:31:50 Macroexpand ? what's that O_O 04:31:57 wouldn't that macroexpansion run the risk of not being implementation independent? 04:31:59 (setq foo (cons 'bar foo)) 04:32:29 jrockway: that would insert the list bar at the begining of foo ? 04:32:30 but if you turn in the actual macroexpansion, you will have a lot of explain'in to do 04:32:44 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 04:32:47 nope 04:32:49 only an element 04:32:54 =O 04:32:56 if you want to append a list to a list, use the append function 04:33:03 please read up on cons cells :) 04:33:11 they are key to understanding lisp :) 04:33:15 im on it n_n 04:33:23 PERR0_HUNTER: you should go read chapters 12 and 13 of http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 04:33:35 *aja* still thinks list* would be useful 04:33:56 list* and append are different 04:34:02 -!- eaumontab [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:34:02 lol, there is no list ? 04:34:10 haha 04:34:13 jrockway: That would explain the different symbols, then. 04:34:44 :) 04:35:04 bpr: thanks ill give it a try ! 04:35:08 cool 04:35:16 i think im going to use lists after all 04:35:25 It's the best explaination of cons cells (ie. lists) that i know of 04:37:17 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 04:39:06 evening 04:41:35 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:42:16 is there a way to know the size of a list ? 04:42:24 clhs length 04:42:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_length.htm 04:42:59 w00t 04:43:00 thx 04:43:43 .... 04:43:53 PERR0_HUNTER: You will benefit (and be much less likely to be abused here) by using a reference work like pcl for such questions. 04:44:46 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:07 pcl ? sorry im a complete n00b 04:45:14 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html 04:45:51 PERR0_HUNTER: read that book. If you have questions, try CLHS. If CLHS doesn't have the answer, or if you still don't get it, ask here. 04:46:05 PERR0_HUNTER: hefner's citation is from "Practical Common Lisp" (PCL, get it?). That's the online version. After you discover how much you like it, buy the dead tree version from Apress. 04:46:21 yeah, i did 04:46:34 aja: lol 04:46:39 i printed it into dead tree form, and also bought it haha 04:46:42 it's that good 04:47:44 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47325.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:49:01 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:49:23 hmm, setf is not working on newlisp , even if the site talks about setf being fixed 04:49:38 *hefner* chokes 04:50:02 are you specifically using newlisp for the class? 04:50:48 PERR0_HUNTER: what operating system are you using? 04:50:59 newlisp is different than common lisp, which is what I at least would expect a class to use 04:51:00 Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard 04:51:06 hmm 04:51:18 how's sbcl's support for OS X? 04:51:48 anyone know? 04:51:49 certainly usable for homework 04:52:05 o_o;;; i don;t know 04:52:16 *bpr* was hoping to be able to recommend lisp in a box haha 04:52:20 steel bank common lisp ? 04:52:22 bpr: ReadyLisp combines SBCL and Aquamacs/Slime in a single executable. 04:52:32 oh nice :-] 04:52:57 PERR0_HUNTER: yeah 04:53:28 PERR0_HUNTER: I've never used ReadyLisp, but based on what aja just said, that sounds nice 04:53:30 downloading readylisp 04:53:36 =) 04:54:09 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:54:10 good deal 04:54:39 Karpar [i=karpar@2001:da8:8000:d010:0:5efe:7dd9:f6d9] has joined #lisp 04:54:55 clhs setf 04:54:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_setf.htm 04:55:28 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 04:56:43 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:58:24 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:10:02 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:12:56 I just realized that when I hit enter, sometimes it do the same procedure 2 times, is that normal ? 05:14:25 Is there a easy explanation for the use of lambda, i just dont get it 05:16:05 it's an anonymous function... it's actually quite useful 05:17:03 you could say it creates a function and returns it 05:17:06 but i'm failing to come up with a simple explanation of it 05:18:06 rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:31 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 05:19:00 which is admittedly *very* contrived 05:19:15 so you can imagine (defun foo (x) (list 'hello x)) internally as doing something like (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (lambda (x) (list 'hello x))) 05:20:54 (I think fdefinition would've been better to use there; whatever) 05:21:46 and you can call the value returned by a lambda form: (funcall (lambda (x) (+ 100 x)) 23) => 123 05:22:21 felzix [n=felzix@adsl-69-232-230-242.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:44 -!- drforr_ is now known as DrForr 05:22:45 is there a way to use save-lisp-and-die within slime? 05:22:51 (or some equivalent) 05:22:55 =O 05:23:29 felzix: It doesn't work for me on SBCL, due to multiple running threads issues. Might be me. 05:24:10 -!- Renatobico [n=t7DS@nbru03-1092.dial.bru.embratel.net.br] has quit ["E assim mais uma vez o dia foi salvo graças às meninas super poderosas!   [www.t7ds.com.br]"] 05:25:27 -!- Karpar [i=karpar@2001:da8:8000:d010:0:5efe:7dd9:f6d9] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:26:08 JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:00 aja: that's my problem, too 05:27:19 I suppose I should have stated that initially... 05:28:54 felzix: I never found a workaround. Tried selectively killing threads, but ended up killing Slime's REPL before I could issue the save command. Opening up a raw SBCL, setting up environment, and then calling save-lisp-and-die worked. Again, the inability to get it working under slime could have been me. 05:29:29 ah, I see what you meant now 05:30:12 wouldn't it make more sense to disconnect slime and s-l-a-d from the *inferior-lisp* buffer? 05:30:27 (not that I know whether that will work, or if you'll still have to kill off threads) 05:31:52 hefner: I think you'd still need to kill threads, as SBCL itself objects to more than one running at all. But I didn't spend much time investigating - your approach might be worth looking into. 05:32:12 what package is save-lisp-and-die in? 05:32:19 sb-ext 05:32:41 still need to kill threads :( 05:33:25 do you want SLIME running in the image? 05:33:45 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-78-193.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:34:16 hmm. I didn't think about it that far. I wanted to save an image in slime and reload it in slime. 05:34:55 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-78-193.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:36:18 the component of slime that runs in sbcl is called swank and it opens ports to listen on and starts a thread to handle connections 05:36:47 so maybe you should write a "toplevel" function which restarts swank and whatever other threads you want 05:36:53 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Saving-a-Core-Image.html 05:38:19 or, i think you could save-lisp-and-die using your workaround, and modify how SLIME (the emacs component) starts sbcl so that it explicitly starts your image 05:38:54 it's possible that both of those would be necessary. I've never looked into how to do that haha 05:39:03 or neither even haha 05:39:08 lol 05:40:06 thanks for insights, #lisp 05:42:36 rread_ [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:36 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:42:47 a good example of a function that does nothign ? =) 05:43:38 (lambda () (values)) 05:44:07 the other day I looked for a noop but there wasn't one :) 05:44:19 (a function named noop that is :) 05:44:54 phadthai: (defun noop ()) 05:44:54 how about (lambda ()) 05:44:58 not that #'(lambda () nil) wouldn't suit also though :) 05:45:04 or that 05:45:26 bpr: it does return nil 05:45:34 hmm i see 05:45:47 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 05:46:09 that's interesting 05:46:13 -!- scottj_ [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:46:13 thx 05:46:22 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 05:47:07 PERR0_HUNTER: why do you need a function that does nothing? 05:47:26 stassats`: Windows simulator? Badum-ching. 05:47:30 do-nothing-unless-not 05:47:36 felzix: iirc uncommonweb starts swank when you load it, maybe you'd want to check into how it does it's thing... 05:48:34 stassats: because im afraid of using the function (not()) so im having empty if's and using the else =P 05:48:39 bpr: thanks. I'll look into it 05:48:55 stassats: everytime i use not() in a condition something goes in wrong 05:48:55 PERR0_HUNTER: consider using WHEN and UNLESS 05:49:04 PERR0_HUNTER: Random irrational fears are seldom good design specifications. 05:49:27 scottj [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has joined #lisp 05:51:44 wchogg_ [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-7.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:36 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.90.66] has joined #lisp 05:56:09 I know everyone is going to kill me for this quesiton but, is there a way to set a specific value on a list to another ? example : i got a 4x4 matrix and i'd like to set the value (matrix 0 2) to "a" is that posible ? 05:56:42 (setf (aref matrix 0 2) "a") 05:56:49 PERR0_HUNTER: did you try setf? 05:57:11 i havnt finished downloading readylisp 05:57:15 so im still in newlisp 05:57:28 <- really slow internets T_T 05:59:29 PERR0_HUNTER: do you have a multidimensional array or a list of lists as your matrix? 05:59:45 or if your matrix representation in list, then (setf (elt (elt list 0) 2) "a") 05:59:56 s/in/is/ 05:59:59 I started with a 4x4 array, but I quited , so now im using lists, however im open to any ideas 06:00:09 newlisp isn't a common lisp 06:00:14 hah! stassats` just gave you the ans for both cases 06:00:18 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:00:24 pkhoung: im starting to realize that D: 06:02:38 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:02:50 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:34 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-19.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:07:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:32 clhs read-line 06:09:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm 06:12:56 -!- Elly [n=pyxy@PHYREXIA.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["leaving"] 06:13:53 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.228.174] has joined #lisp 06:14:41 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-170.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:23:58 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 06:26:38 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #lisp 06:31:57 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [] 06:46:22 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:55:01 -!- Jarvellis is now known as xarxanto 06:57:39 kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has joined #lisp 06:58:08 felzi1 [n=felzix@adsl-69-232-200-241.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:10 morning lispers 06:58:18 hello kiuma 06:59:58 Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-109-200.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 07:02:56 -!- felzix [n=felzix@adsl-69-232-230-242.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:14:36 lurcio [n=marc@itsnotnormal.plus.com] has joined #lisp 07:14:55 nostoi [n=nostoi@124.Red-83-54-15.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:47 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:50:22 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@124.Red-83-54-15.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:54:34 parodyoflanguage [i=pseudony@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:30 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:30 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 07:57:00 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:59:52 -!- turjo [n=fhs@pool-71-183-1-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:07:36 I finished the hw 08:07:38 thanks guys 08:07:40 everyone ! 08:07:44 im going to sleep 08:08:01 if anyone need helps with php,ajax,or mysql, thats where i can help =) (perrohunter.com) cheers 08:08:06 -!- PERR0_HUNTER [n=pepper@189.169.79.89] has quit [] 08:08:09 -!- 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has joined #lisp 09:14:37 Morning everyone. 09:14:57 mornin 09:15:08 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-17.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:19:59 lispm [n=joswig@e177158143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:20:59 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=jap@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:21:01 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:15 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2FFB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:13 hello 09:33:54 FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:36:55 lichtblau [n=user@pD9540274.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:32 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:38:08 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:38:52 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4765B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 09:40:43 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 09:42:55 oudeis 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[n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 11:13:22 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-53-199.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:15:29 michaelw: i think now i want a SHARE LISP OR DIE shirt 11:15:29 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:15:30 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF4D70.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:16:14 I was thinking about that joke, but it's not exactly right, or is it? 11:16:49 it is 11:17:28 ok (: 11:19:36 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:19:38 I don't get it. 11:20:04 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 11:20:10 tic: see michaelw's blog for enlightenment (: 11:21:01 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp419.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 11:21:02 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:21:13 :-) 11:21:35 I'm doing my sharing at Stack Overflow. 11:23:19 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:22 |gas| [n=kvirc@81-208-31-216.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:25:27 Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF4D70.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:43 -!- xarxanto is now known as Jarvellis 11:26:16 -!- turjo [n=fhs@pool-71-183-1-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:27:55 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:28:02 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 11:29:10 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:30 -!- |gas| [n=kvirc@81-208-31-216.ip.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 11:29:42 |gas| [n=kvirc@81-208-31-216.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:30:02 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 11:31:21 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [Client Quit] 11:32:49 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:45:02 md3 [n=user@cpc2-walt9-0-0-cust714.popl.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:50:28 scottj_ [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has joined #lisp 11:52:43 *persi* replaced a defun with a method and it was faster! Go sbcl. 11:52:52 alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 11:54:49 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.162.246] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:06 lurcio [n=marc@itsnotnormal.plus.com] has joined #lisp 11:55:12 -!- lurcio [n=marc@itsnotnormal.plus.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:57:38 -!- md3 [n=user@cpc2-walt9-0-0-cust714.popl.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 11:57:51 md3 [n=user@cpc2-walt9-0-0-cust714.popl.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:42 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:02:51 -!- scottj [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:05:10 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:06:15 scottj [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has joined #lisp 12:07:51 -!- scottj_ [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:09:36 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:13:01 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-17.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:13:59 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:16 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 12:16:15 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 12:21:05 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:25:48 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:26:39 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:36:39 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:39:33 schasi [n=schasi@p54A26D25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:03 -!- FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:53:00 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:11 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-558140759edb5218] has joined #lisp 12:57:57 yay, my ecl patch was applied 12:58:05 cool, Xach 12:58:18 Xach: to what? 12:59:35 ensure-directories-exist did not merge its argument before trying to create the hierarchy 12:59:43 that would fail if *d-p-d* did not exist and the argument was relative 13:00:56 it was one-liner to merge before checking the paths 13:02:59 *hefner* would have answered "to ECL!" 13:05:38 for SCIENCE! 13:07:27 dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 13:08:54 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 13:11:43 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 13:11:47 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:48 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:41 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp419.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:17:07 n 13:17:13 o 13:20:09 p 13:20:19 e 13:20:42 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.166.2] has joined #lisp 13:22:40 -!- vasa-work [n=None@212.98.167.157] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:23:58 vasa-work [n=None@212.98.167.157] has joined #lisp 13:26:32 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:32:42 prxq [n=mommer@Xa613.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:53 hi 13:37:29 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-558140759edb5218] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:38:57 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:39:08 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-165-174.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 13:41:52 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.198.40] has joined #lisp 13:42:41 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:44:38 -!- stassats changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . New: SBCL 1.0.21, CFFI 0.10.2 13:44:43 When I compile a function in slime, I get an error window with notes, errors, etc. If I leave it by pressing 'q', I am not returned to the buffer I was editing. Any ideas? I've checked out code from two weeks ago, and it still behaves that way. 13:46:59 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-19-214.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:47:12 prxq: what function? 13:48:23 any function. I runs slime, load a file, compile a form from it using C-c C-c. 13:48:47 press q and end up in another buffer. 13:49:46 -!- md3 [n=user@cpc2-walt9-0-0-cust714.popl.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:49 do you use recent? 13:50:26 that problem seems to be there since some version in august. I was using a freshly checked out version. 13:51:25 hmm, i have file with "(defun foo () 1/0)" and end up in the same buffer after 'q' on error 13:51:37 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 13:52:12 stassats: do you have '(slime-compilation-finished-hook (quote (slime-list-compiler-notes))) in your .emacs? 13:52:22 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.45.123] has quit [] 13:52:26 no 13:52:33 vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 13:53:44 stassats: when you compile that file, does a window appear with a tree of the notes, errors, etc? 13:53:51 s/file/function/ 13:54:13 prxq: changed to that value, still works 13:54:48 prxq: yes, tree of compiler notes, errors 13:55:07 so maybe that option is no longer needed now. 13:55:40 the version from 31 of july works the way i expected with my setup. Hm. 13:55:42 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:17 prxq: no, behavior changed when i changed that variable 13:56:40 default is slime-maybe-list-compiler-notes 13:57:07 so it not always shows notes, but 'q' works the same 13:57:50 slime from cvs does not behave correctly for me. 13:58:04 hm 13:59:10 maybe some other options affect it 14:00:33 i've been going through it. What emacs version are you using? Mine's 21.4.1 14:01:06 21 is slightly old, i use 22.x 14:01:31 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:01:52 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.198.40] has quit [] 14:02:36 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:08 stassats: that might be the reason. Well, I'll use the version from july for now. 14:06:50 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633014.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:07:29 -!- prxq [n=mommer@Xa613.x.pppool.de] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:07:29 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp419.studby.uio.no] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:07:29 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:07:29 -!- scottj [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:07:29 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:07:29 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:07:29 -!- ths [n=ths@port-212-202-236-178.static.qsc.de] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:07:29 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-49-80.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:07:29 -!- jsimonss 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internship exist in the technical world 14:35:43 heh. 14:35:55 i'd take as many as would apply 14:36:07 i never thought about putting internships out there. 14:36:11 Dodek [i=dodek@77-253-125-102.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 14:36:19 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:44 how can i get utf-8 representation of character (the corresponding bytes)? 14:40:16 > (sb-ext:string-to-octets "Nøstdal") => #(78 195 184 115 116 100 97 108) 14:40:18 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.215.191] has joined #lisp 14:40:35 thank you 14:41:24 ..the function takes some keyargs by the way .. i think you get it :) 14:41:44 also .. there is babel .. it might not be needed though 14:42:00 http://common-lisp.net/project/babel/ 14:43:12 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:43:24 -!- emma is now known as emma42 14:43:35 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:39 hans [n=H4ns@p57A0FC8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:58 _YKY_ [i=YKY@116.49.126.12] has joined #lisp 14:46:45 -!- emma42 is now known as emma 14:47:10 <_YKY_> I have a very long list and I have a pointer to the list, I can increase the pointer by cdr, but how can I decrease the pointer? 14:47:25 _YKY_: you can't 14:47:28 you can't, as far as i know 14:47:31 -!- hans is now known as H4nsX 14:47:38 lists are single linked 14:47:56 <_YKY_> I see... 14:48:11 if you want random access, you can use an array 14:48:22 (more precise, they're degenerated trees) 14:48:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:32 -!- sely_ [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:48:48 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:48:50 <_YKY_> Ok 14:48:51 is an array a degenerate n-ary tree, for very large n? =p 14:48:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:35 Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:41 hm.. :) 14:50:21 when displaced arrays and fill-pointers come in, it gets complicated 14:51:30 does format support some control string that if (format "hello~..." "world") prints out "hello world" and when (format "hello~..." nil) prints out "hello" ? 14:51:49 or I have to use an if condition ? 14:51:59 clhs ~[ 14:51:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgb.htm 14:52:08 disumu [n=disumu@p57A265BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:11 (~@[ is what you want) 14:52:31 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 14:53:06 H4nsX, thanx 14:55:57 H4nsX, just to know, in the new hunchentoot do you use event driven fast i/o ? 14:56:15 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@124-171-93-244.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit ["leaving"] 14:56:50 kiuma: no. we have made the threading behaviour controllable, but we have not done any significant architectural changes. if you're looking for an event driven http server, look at iolib 14:57:55 yep, lnostdal told me he is working that way 14:58:09 that is a different one, but yes, that too 14:59:06 i think it is possible to use iolib with hunchentoot using H4nsX branch btw., kiuma 14:59:22 k 14:59:23 ..via that new connection-manager class (if i recall) 14:59:47 yes, it should be possible 14:59:50 lnostdal: i'd like to know more about that. did you try it? someone else? 14:59:51 ...I just woke up. I was having a dream about bknr and WITH-TRANSACTION 15:00:04 sykopomp: i'm sorry :) 15:00:12 :( 15:01:09 was it a bad dream? 15:02:45 not really, it was a class teaching CL, and I ended up helping the prof because I'd already used bknr 15:02:57 Patrick [n=Patrick@ool-435665cf.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:03 but I woke up disturbed when I realized that (I think) cl-stm also uses with-transaction 15:03:12 and it was one of these unreal moments when the world doesn't make sense 15:03:28 -!- Patrick is now known as Guest42747 15:04:11 -!- alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:05:44 ouch. 15:05:46 H4nsX, nope, i haven't tried it .. but it shouldn't be impossible .. it requires changes to process-connection in server.lisp though (breaking it into "pieces") .. and some changes to the response stuff also 15:05:56 the tutorial on cl-stm is less than stellar. 15:06:14 ..so in addition to a new connection-manager subclass .. a new subclass of server i guess, H4nsX 15:06:16 bougyman: it is a bit bold to even call it a tutorial 15:06:43 lnostdal: that was the idea, but i think there are several intricacies that would need to be solved to actually make it work. 15:06:55 ..the process-request function in server.lisp needs to be customized and "broken up" in pieces too 15:06:55 am I being judgemental or realistic when I've come to the conclusion that lack of tutorial-type usage examples are lacking in CL libraries in general? 15:07:04 it's certainly been my experience thus far. 15:07:17 until I could adequately grok API documentation, i felt pretty lost. 15:08:01 bougyman: no, that observation is right. there is not a lot of "howto" style documentation. you can't get away without reading the books. 15:08:25 H4nsX: is that by convention, tradition, a sadistic gene lispers share, what? 15:08:39 -!- Guest42747 is now known as pjm 15:08:44 -!- pjm is now known as patrick 15:09:15 -!- patrick is now known as Guest48051 15:09:17 bougyman: it is by tradition. lisp started long before linux made howto- and mess-around-computing popular 15:09:17 bougyman: writing good documentation for a variety of audiences is hard work, and time is short. 15:09:36 bougyman: but you can change that! :) 15:09:43 Xach: i kind of love it. 15:10:02 Xach: at the same time the community gets a bad rap and probably dissuades talent in the process. 15:10:10 -!- Guest48051 is now known as pjm 15:10:32 bougyman: I don't think more documentaiton is a bad thing, I just think it's hard work that people don't have much time to do. 15:10:34 you will get more experience while reading the source, not documentation 15:10:46 i never looked at CL simply because of my perceptions of it and biases against a 15 year old version of some lisp I used on a job. 15:11:22 I like to make things that do a particular task for me. Making it reusable for other people is about ten times more work. 15:11:27 stassats: always. 15:11:40 Xach: it shouldn't be, i don't think. 15:11:40 It's often worthwhile, but still hard and time consuming work, and life is short. 15:11:50 if it can do the task for you it should be able to do that task for Joe, and Sue. 15:12:51 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633014.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16BEFC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAE7EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-133-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- envi_office2 [i=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl182.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- hsaliak_ [n=hsaliak@cm73.sigma230.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.dynamic.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- esden`away [n=esden@repl.esden.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- azuk` [i=azure@s2.org] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- vcgomes[away] [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@host14-140-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:12:51 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:13:02 i've not looked yet, but i'm hoping there's something like the newgem system i'm used to in .rb for delivering packages of software in a portable way with not much work. 15:13:15 Nope. 15:13:17 it would wrap the asdf- stuff. 15:13:19 no? 15:13:21 oh neat. 15:13:21 bougyman: I don't think you can apply induction to programming 15:13:31 i can port newgem i did a good portion of the code. 15:13:50 How much of it uses method_missing? 15:13:56 none at all. 15:14:03 i don't use method mising for much. 15:14:13 it's very high overhead, and smell bad, in my opinion. 15:14:20 but great for some corner cases. 15:14:35 dash [n=dash@dslb-088-065-133-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:59 those corner cases don't really exist, in CLOS. 15:14:59 I would love to see more and better tools, but I think in many cases the people with the skill to make them work on more interesting projects. 15:15:09 multimethod functionality can be implemented with method_missing. 15:15:15 it becomes your generic dispatch. 15:15:27 ruby can be discussed in #ruby 15:15:49 *Xach* failed at making a bad joke 15:16:01 i bet, they discuss CL in #ruby 15:16:13 i dunno, never been there. 15:16:40 <_YKY_> How to repeat something 10 times without using a variable? 15:16:42 it is discussed in rb forums often though. 15:16:53 _YKY_: (loop repeat 10 do (print 'boo)) 15:16:55 bougyman: (dotimes (i 10) ...) 15:17:04 -!- dash [n=dash@dslb-088-065-133-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 15:17:07 bougyman: oops 15:17:07 <_YKY_> Thanks=) 15:17:08 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633014.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16BEFC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-133-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 envi_office2 [i=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 brandelune [n=JC@pl182.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 esden`away [n=esden@repl.esden.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 hsaliak_ [n=hsaliak@cm73.sigma230.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.dynamic.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 azuk` [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 Bucciarati [n=buccia@host14-140-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 vcgomes[away] [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:17 _YKY_: that was for you. there is no need to use the variable. 15:17:19 it uses variable under the hood, anyway 15:17:23 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-133-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:38 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16BEFC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Success] 15:18:19 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16BEFC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:20:03 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:22:45 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAE7EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:25 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-133-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:27:20 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:34:04 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1FDDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:46 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1CA0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:45 ..this "lisp isn't php" thing on reddit is really annoying 15:35:52 pixel5 [n=pixel@194.126.158.106] has joined #lisp 15:36:04 proggit? 15:36:26 yeah, same old crap 15:36:32 "need new standard .. blablabla" 15:36:38 b.s. 15:36:39 Hm. Which URL? 15:37:09 *tic* reads Share lisp or it Dies meanwhile. 15:38:03 *H4nsX* continues to explore clojure meanwhile 15:38:13 no url in particular really .. or well, many .. a couple the last week or two 15:38:18 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A265BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 15:38:35 ah, read your comment. 15:39:13 on friday, one of my collagues who was involved in creating ansi common lisp said: "you know, at the time, we at some point decided that we just need to get this done, but we never wanted that to end the development of lisp". 15:39:27 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 15:39:40 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:39:52 that's one of paul graham's favorite sentiments 15:40:00 "see, the people who made it didn't even like it!" 15:40:06 yeah, it's an "illusion" the whole standard thing, H4nsX .. "we can't do or add anything" 15:40:21 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 15:41:00 Xach: i see it more as an encouragement to try new things. 15:41:28 *H4nsX* tries "leveraging the java platform", which is really not that easy :) 15:41:39 you just need the right lever! 15:41:54 and balance point... 15:42:10 and error message parser! and ide! 15:42:34 it's kind of like with common lisp and emacs. you can't meaningfully develop java related software in emacs. 15:43:10 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:12 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.166.2] has quit [] 15:43:15 H4nsX: I've found a bit of a happy medium. 15:43:30 For most things, JDE+CEDET is pretty good on emacs, and emacs is just generally great for editing. 15:43:36 I beg to differ, H4nsX. I do exactly that in my day job. 15:43:46 (Develop Java in Emacs, that is.) 15:43:52 and I use eclipse for the more heavy IDE stuff, like building, project management, etc. 15:44:31 I just use Ant in a shell for building. 15:44:34 H4nsX, but in practice, are new things tried based on Common Lisp? 15:44:48 (curious, I'm rather unaware of such projects) 15:44:54 pjm: it is possible in the same sense that you can develop lisp software in vim. it works, can be done, yet you'll not get the same experience that other java developers get when developing. 15:45:06 jdz [n=jdz@87.110.168.120] has joined #lisp 15:45:14 We have several developers using vi for Java, as well. ;-) 15:45:20 pjm: like, say, api exploration inside your ide, which really is something that helps getting up to speed. 15:45:47 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-71-194-156-206.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:57 tic: sure - pascal costanza does a lot of advanced language level stuff with common lisp. 15:45:58 JDE will let you do that, although admittedly not with the point-and-drool interface of Eclipse. 15:46:16 tic: ContextL 15:46:23 (pascal costanza) 15:46:33 The COP stuff, yeah. Hm. Might be that I'm asking the wrong question here... 15:46:39 also, I believe AspectL was first on the AOP front, too? Maybe? 15:46:41 On the other hand, Emacs + Ant + shell is much less intrusive than using and IDE and being bound to the Eclipse or NetBeans way of doing things. 15:46:59 pjm: less intrusive if you're used to emacs, true enough. 15:47:11 pjm: Ant? 15:47:43 pjm: I'm trying to get away from eclipse, but it's kinda hard to find support on how to get set up with a proper java environment unless you're using netbeans/eclipse 15:47:45 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:47:55 Not just if you're used to Emacs. vi and Emacs users can work on the same project without worrying about conventions and restrictions imposed by the IDE. 15:48:00 official answer seems to be "use eclipse" (not much unlike 'use emacs' for lisp) 15:48:33 What is it that you want in your environment, sykopomp? 15:48:42 sykopomp: using eclipse is a very good way to not waste time on infrastructure creation. 15:49:15 I've heard that argument from some of my colleagues who are using Maven. I tried it and it's not for me. 15:49:25 true. documentation just works there... that's cool, compared to getting the javadoc to run for clojure 15:49:41 I do like the forthrightness of the developers, though. On their website they say "If you don't like the conventions we enforce, Maven isn't for you." 15:49:42 pjm: I want something with code browsing/svn management/basic error-checking/in-IDE compiling/proper code generation 15:50:06 Code generation is a design smell. ;-) 15:50:13 The rest you can get with Emacs and JDE. 15:50:17 pjm: then macros are a design smell? 15:50:31 jde does code generation. But Java is a bit special because you have to write so much boilerplate. 15:50:38 That's not code generation in the sense of code you generate and then modify. 15:50:46 I'd rather auto-generate getters/setters. I'm too used to lisp's delicious :accessor 15:50:49 True, sykopomp. 15:50:51 depends on the macro 15:51:00 you just don't see the intermediate code 15:51:09 Getters and setters are a design smell, too. ;-) 15:51:16 java is a design smell 15:51:25 but this isn't ##java, so I'll stop 15:51:37 That's the whole point, Hun. You extend the language with Lisp macros. Java doesn't have anything like that. 15:51:47 but if you have any advice on how to get a full-fledged dev environment in emacs, please /q me, I could use the help. 15:52:15 I prefer doing code generation myself rather than have tools doing it for me. 15:52:22 where's the fundamental difference? (i am not a lisp newbie and wrote a fair deal of macros) 15:52:25 (as in, it's readable and makes sense) 15:52:38 in one case the compiler expands, in the other the ide 15:52:46 because you see the turtles. 15:52:55 it makes me fuzzy inside. 15:53:01 I'm coming to the conclusion that those of us who started programming before Java existed are not going to understand the appeal of Eclipse. I consider Emacs and the shell to be a full-fledged development environment. 15:53:07 and since a lot of people see the ide as `the compiler', the perceived difference can be smaller then it seems 15:53:21 the only bad thing about code generation is editing the generated code. otherwise, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. 15:53:39 that's my point, H4nsX 15:53:39 pjm: I think there's certainly advantages to fully integrated environments like eclipse, and slime 15:53:41 Right, generating code is a two-stage pass. 15:53:48 (two-pass stage?) 15:53:56 but they make people a bit dependent, which makes me a bit worried. 15:54:24 sykopomp: emacs is totally different! as is vi! you can switch any time, whereas eclipse locks you in! 15:54:28 true. i could only start learning more clojure since the slime support worked. repl-only feels awkward 15:54:41 I'll be more explicit, Hun. Generating code that is never regenerated and only used for extension isn't a code smell. Using RealMacros (tm) isn't a code smell because the code is never touched. Generating code that needs to be regenerated and modified is a code smell. 15:55:15 pjm: that sounds acceptable to me. 15:55:18 H4nsX: Eclipse doesn't lock you in, though. You can configure indentation, code style, etc, edit the source code in external files. 15:55:21 Now, I would argue that code generation in Java is a language smell, because it usually is done because of the sheer verbosity of the language. 15:55:30 sykopomp: i meant to be ironic 15:55:33 oh 15:55:44 internet-irony isn't my forté 15:56:01 sykopomp: i think eclipse is not quite so bad in supporting emacs style keyboard commands 15:56:01 Accented characters are, though. 15:56:24 you're lucky it's just the Internet-irony you don't get! us born in the 80s can't deal with it at alll! 15:56:42 tic: I was born in the 80's :< 15:56:43 wait 15:56:47 ..... 15:57:08 pjm: when your first language requires accents, you tend to have your keyboard configured to write them :P 15:57:15 ;-) 15:57:56 H4nsX: There's a nice plugin for eclipse that also gives you emacs-style line-indentation (which I've grown to love), as well as some out-of-the-box emacs-like bindings. 15:58:16 and as I said, you can always configure eclipse to edit certain source files in an external editor 15:58:18 sykopomp: no doubt. eclipse is used by former die-hard emacsers, too. 15:58:45 whoa :o really? 15:59:00 I really hope they get JDE back in shape, though, it would be wonderful. 16:00:22 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@194.126.158.106] has quit ["bbl"] 16:01:05 -!- parodyoflanguage [i=pseudony@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [] 16:01:48 I was born in the 80's too. I really like irony. 16:02:23 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-71-194-156-206.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:03:03 is it irony or sarcasm, though? two different animals. 16:03:06 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@71.188.161.219] has quit ["leaving"] 16:03:30 tic: this is a terrible conversation to get into. We're better off discussing 'begging the question' 16:04:15 EvanR [n=chatzill@adsl-250-238-122.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:47 is there a filter type function that 'mutates' the list so as to remove anything that doesnt satisfy the predicate 16:04:47 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:05:02 and returns the rest 16:05:15 remove-if / remove-if-not 16:05:17 EvanR: why do you need to mutate the list? 16:05:54 because its imperative style, duh :) 16:06:03 is APPLY the function to use when you want to apply a function with the same arguments to a larger list of objects? 16:06:05 (setf list '(a b c 10 d 30)), (setf list (remove-if #'numberp list))? 16:06:31 remove-if returns what was removed? 16:06:42 clhs remove-if 16:06:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 16:06:46 read the doc. 16:07:18 cool 16:07:25 EvanR: in general, removing the first element of a list is not possible in the general sense, so you actually have to update your references. 16:07:46 sykopomp: i don't understand your question 16:07:50 welcome to the redundancy redundancy department. 16:08:16 department of redundancy department 16:08:27 EvanR: even better. bear with me. 16:08:27 stassats: let's say I have a function I want to apply, and a list of objects. I have some arguments, and I want to apply the function to the entire list of objects, with the exact same arguments. 16:08:42 (yes, easy with a loop, but I'm trying to learn the different map/reduce functions) 16:08:50 EvanR: You'd write (setf list (delete-if-not #'predicate list)), if the list in LIST can be modified destructively. 16:09:20 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:09:22 sykopomp: not sure that i understand you, you might be looking for reduce or mapc(ar) 16:09:24 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:09:24 is this efficient in that it uses only one iteration through the list? 16:09:34 sykopomp: there's nothing built in to do what I think you're thinking. you would use dolist, loop, or some variety of map. 16:09:51 EvanR: if you need efficiency, consider using other data structures, too. 16:09:55 EvanR: Why should it iterate through the list twice? 16:09:57 yeah, sounds like loop is probably the simplest way to go :P 16:10:21 tcr: i have no idea, but that is what i would get with two filter calls in python :) 16:11:04 no worries, CL is more than twice as fast as python, so that makes up the difference =p 16:11:04 python the compiler? 16:11:34 stassats: sure, that 16:11:35 EvanR: I'm confused how my expression is supposed to contain two direct function invocations 16:11:56 you could do something like (loop for i in list for p = (funcall pred i) if p collect i into trues else collect p into falses finally (return (cons trues falses))) 16:12:12 tcr: it isnt supposed to, and i didnt think it did 16:12:47 are any of you guys running a current clbuild of sbcl on OSX/ppc? 16:12:55 EvanR: you can't write fast lisp code unless you have a basic understanding of how lisp works. learn some lisp first, then learn how to optimize. common lisp is compiled and can produce code that is very fast 16:13:21 EvanR: Perhaps I misread your actual endeavor; you want a function that works similiar to Haskell's partition? 16:13:32 (10.5.1) 16:13:38 i dont think any of us have any problems 16:13:42 EvanR: it's usually not that hard to get lisp running fast when your code is properly written. but do it once it works 16:13:46 i totally understand youre answers 16:13:55 your*** 16:13:58 uhg 16:14:26 remove-if is the key 16:14:40 or delete-if-not 16:15:01 EvanR: stick with the non-destructive versions first. 16:15:09 hmm... java is weird. why does BigInteger have the fields ZERO, ONE, TEN (and only those)? 16:15:32 Why do you ask me? 16:15:42 lispers know everything. 16:15:48 true 16:15:54 hefner: the value 16:15:56 but not the cost 16:15:58 lispers know everything because they invented everything 16:16:52 Is this for serious? 16:17:04 I hope not. 16:17:16 trolling is a art 16:17:20 Xof, Krystof: Happen to be around? 16:19:46 hello 16:19:57 tcr: i mean to say, it returns a list that satisfy the predicate, but removes the ones that dont from the original list, you could do this with a loop... 16:20:11 errrr wait, no, it removes the ones that do 16:21:27 EvanR: you could do things with a loop, or you could use a more abstract and concise higher-order function >_> 16:21:34 Krystof: How was the MOP function called again that's basically who-specializes? 16:22:30 sykopomp: yes, i am sure, and also i could write the higher order function to do it, unless its already written :) 16:22:39 mmm delicious. Yes. 16:23:34 Yay, the answer "Common Lisp" to "What rare programming tools do you use?" is rated highest at StackOverflow. :) 16:23:48 hehehe 16:23:56 sb-mop:specializer-direct-methods 16:24:00 Thanks! 16:25:05 good luck 16:25:44 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:29:17 morning 16:30:46 -!- jdz [n=jdz@87.110.168.120] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 16:32:30 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.215.191] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:33:02 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:34:55 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-110-59.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:30 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:40:11 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-170.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 16:40:27 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084244.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 16:40:50 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:07 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-78-4-246.netcologne.de] has quit [] 16:41:10 felzix [n=felzix@adsl-69-232-224-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:15 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-17.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:42:44 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-89-250.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:44:35 dumb question about method dispatch... if I have a method that I don't want to really touch, but want to, for now, wrap in something, will an :around method work? (I'm thinking here of bknr's datastore, where slot-changes need to be wrapped with WITH-TRANSACTION. It would be nice to leave regular methods intact and just have something wrap around them) 16:45:11 sykopomp: you can, but you can wrap :around slot access only on the meta level 16:45:32 not sure what you mean by the meta level 16:45:51 sykopomp: if i understand you right, you want one automatic transaction for each slot written? 16:46:08 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 16:46:34 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:46:45 sykopomp: meta level -> implemented in the metaclass. 16:46:46 that would be even handier. The idea is that, until I'm sure bknr is what I want, I want to keep stuff abstracted, in case I have to swap it out for something else in the future. 16:47:00 and heck, I don't really mind writing the :around methods myself, if that's what it takes. 16:47:32 sykopomp: just use with-transaction to group your write accesses and replace the macro by something else if you need to switch the underlying store 16:48:08 sykopomp: it is always a good idea to group persistent accesses, and most other persistence implementation will require that or something similar. 16:48:10 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:48:45 I'm not sure how I would group accesses like that, but it might be more obvious as I go along 16:49:40 if you don't find a better place, use with-transaction in your top-level command processing function 16:49:52 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-110-59.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 16:50:23 that sounds ugly, but maybe not such a bad idea 16:50:37 why is it ugly? 16:50:57 don't with-foo macros use unwind-protect? 16:51:04 that makes a lot more sense than making each write/read a stand-alone transaction. 16:51:09 mld [n=user@cekyrij.olf.sgsnet.se] has joined #lisp 16:51:16 isn't it a bad idea to wrap your entire code in unwind-protect? >_> 16:51:26 sykopomp: why would that be bad? 16:51:35 I guess I don't understand. Sorry. 16:52:26 also, you said "top-level command-processing function" and I thought "main loop", so I misread, as well 16:52:29 Occupies precious stack space.. 16:52:32 that does sound like a good idea. 16:55:15 -!- felzi1 [n=felzix@adsl-69-232-200-241.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:48 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:17 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:57:24 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:59:09 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:55 H4nsX: I'm guessing there's no way I can, say, store hash tables of function objects with bknr, right? I may have to keep cl-store on the side for stuff like this. 17:00:19 sykopomp: no, you can't store functions directly. 17:00:24 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:00:32 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:01:07 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:06:27 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@77-253-125-102.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:08:31 sykopomp: i'd like to see cl-store do functions too 17:11:05 pkhuong: it was doing functions for me, unless I did something weird and got it to work by accident. 17:11:40 Renatobico [i=t7DS@nbru03-1117.dial.bru.embratel.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:12:42 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:15 Dodek [i=dodek@77-253-106-38.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 17:17:33 sykopomp: it only stores the name (as a symbol) if there is one. 17:18:01 ah yes 17:18:06 I don't actually mind it being that way 17:18:14 that 17:18:19 s really not a lot of code then. 17:18:59 it would be nicer if it was serializing the actual function (awful redefinition problems), but having -some- way to make a persistent hash table with functions in it is incredibly useful, particularly with what I'm doing. 17:19:41 sykopomp: dumping an image may be the easiest way to get that form of persistence. 17:19:57 sykopomp: not very modular, but practical and straightforward. 17:20:08 or a fasl (: 17:20:14 if you can store lists then you could always store stuff like `(lambda (x)) then evaluate it later 17:20:50 felzix: unless you need the environment, too. 17:20:53 felzix: that doesn't help to store closures, though 17:21:16 H4nsX: well, what I do is that I have a hash table of verbs keyed by strings, associated with a method object that represents that verb 17:21:26 and this is a table that changes a lot as verbs are added/removed 17:22:18 sykopomp: are you sure that methods are the best way to store these associations? i.e. is every verb executing different code that changes at run time? 17:22:45 yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:23:10 errr, sorry, they're functions, now, with methods inside them 17:24:01 so the verb 'get' is associated with a function that handles breaking down the syntax tree the parser generates, and the code inside it dispatches differently depending on the context (and contents of the syntax tree) 17:24:45 it was a nice way, I found, to associate the string of a verb that the AST picks out with the actual code for it >_> 17:24:58 and no, I can't really think of any other way. There probably is, though 17:28:06 -!- persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 17:31:01 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 17:31:15 LiamH1 [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:20 -!- LiamH1 [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:31:45 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-19-214.kosnet.ru] has quit ["Marafon!"] 17:33:32 -!- jk_ is now known as jk 17:35:52 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084244.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:37:01 H4nsX: I know you're not a fan of threaded hunchentoot, but the problem I mentioned before seems to be due to the fact that the worker threads hang around longer than the should. listing all threads shows 258 threads active. 17:37:16 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:06 kpreid: that code snippet is awesome. 17:40:52 pkhuong: why, thanks. how'd you find it? 17:42:18 planet haskell. 17:42:28 ah 17:43:14 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 17:43:17 I already find sizeof(*foo) a bad pun, so sizeof * foo is pretty much off the charts, just a bit below duff's. 17:43:49 Do you think that (who-specializes 'foo) should also include methods specializing on subclasses of FOO? 17:45:49 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:53 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:46:02 which equality test does case use? 17:46:09 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:12 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:46:18 Dodek: eql 17:46:19 Dodek: eql 17:46:20 Dodek: EQL 17:46:28 damn, xach beat me 17:46:30 Dodek: everything uses eql unless otherwise specified. 17:46:45 can one change it to equal? it doesn't work with strings. 17:47:06 I bet alexandria has something like that. 17:47:10 Dodek: Look for SWITCH in Alexandria 17:47:21 you could do a macro for that (i read something about one that expanded into a trie-search) 17:47:27 Dodek: or, another thing you can do is (case (find-symbol the-string :keyword) (:foo ...) (:bar ...)) 17:47:28 or you could cheat and use intern 17:47:36 Hun: no, use find-symbol 17:47:38 Hun: pkhuong wrote a fancy one 17:47:42 does Alexandria mean 'yet another library required project'? 17:47:46 by project* 17:48:03 Dodek: it's simple enough to just use COND or something else 17:48:16 so i'll do that. 17:48:31 there's a simpler 80% solution I should actually post some day. 17:49:01 i wonder why some functions provide optional test argument and some don't though. 17:50:13 case isn't a function, and it was probably meant to be implementable efficiently (hash table lookup + computed goto). 17:50:18 Dodek: Erik Naggum showed another solution: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/a79ba3b04895a4d8 17:50:56 Dodek: I don't think there are that many that don't; GET, GETF, and GET-PROPERTIES spring to mind 17:51:47 michaelw, that seems like overkill to me 17:51:58 i'd just write similar macro under another name. 17:52:18 hallelujah 17:52:19 go right ahead, then 17:52:45 well, i have an sbcl 1.0.17 binary, but I cannot compile another since apple updated gcc. 17:52:56 So does anyone have an opinion re: who-specializes and subclasses? 17:53:36 tcr: yes 17:53:50 and yes. (it is not a very strong opinion) 17:54:37 Fade: what version of OS X? 17:54:49 (and XCode) 17:55:38 osx 10.5.1, xcode 3.1 (and 3.1.11) 17:56:07 er, 10.5.5 17:56:56 wfm 10.5.5/3.1 (SBCL 1.0.20.28) 17:56:58 on a 32bit powerpc box 17:57:54 pkhuong: I'm not sure what that means. 17:57:57 ah. Someone else may have tried that recently (slyrus?). On what does it choke and how? 17:58:37 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 18:01:40 fade pasted "osx build failure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67926 18:02:23 fails the same way with vanilla 1.0.18 release source, current checkout in clbuild, and with the macports sbcl. 18:04:02 fade annotated #67926 with "gcc version::" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67926#1 18:05:04 yay, more gas breakage. 18:05:18 gas breakage? :) 18:05:57 this has been broken for some time; i only just returned to this machine a few days ago. last time I tried was about a month ago. 18:06:15 Garth Corral posted a patch on sbcl-devel on Sept 9th. 18:08:41 basically, replace the _/**/name hack for string concatenation by _ ## name. Not sure why that was needed, nor whether that'll break on older XCodes. 18:11:39 thanks for the pointer pkhuong 18:12:25 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-48-185.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:21:23 user_ [n=user@p5492644B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:28 turjo [n=fhs@pool-71-183-1-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:16 dlisboa_ [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 18:24:37 -!- dlisboa_ [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has left #lisp 18:25:12 slyrus: what problem did you mention? 18:26:48 pjb [n=pjb@81-66-48-185.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:27:00 -!- bedlam [i=bedlam@129.21.135.74] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:27:27 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:28:06 lispm [n=joswig@e177122000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:28:28 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177122000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:29:51 bedlam [i=bedlam@case.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:31:02 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:31:51 done [n=gerd@p5790BC84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:49 S11001001: You here? 18:33:23 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:23 -!- H4nsX [n=H4ns@p57A0FC8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:33:30 H4nsX [n=H4ns@p57A0FC8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:24 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:35:00 H4nsX: the problem where hunchentoot dies running out of threads after some period of use (or perhaps after some period of heavy activity) 18:35:09 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:28 -!- done [n=gerd@p5790BC84.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 18:35:29 slyrus: ah - yeah, i would expect that. there is no thread management in hunchentoot. 18:35:29 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-89-250.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:35:59 slyrus: i'm not sure if i will fix that beyond providing the hooks that makes it possible to write thread managers. 18:36:35 does hunchentoon simply spawn a thread for every request or is there a pool of fixed size? 18:36:38 yeah, but the problem seems to be that some threads stick around, and others don't. if it was just that all threads persisted, it would die much sooner. 18:36:56 drewc: it spawns a thread for every incoming connection. 18:37:24 drewc: it certainly depends on how long the client keeps connections open. 18:37:29 ouch... and here i am recommending it. 18:37:46 =( 18:38:10 drewc: :persistent-connections nil and a proper frontend work for me just great. i'd not expose it without a frontend, though. 18:38:13 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-89-250.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:38:21 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:38:43 H4nsX: what are you using in front? 18:38:46 H4nsX: didn't someone submit a patch for a thread pool a while back? 18:38:46 what's frontend in this context 18:38:49 drewc: squid 18:38:53 *rsynnott* uses pound in front 18:39:08 mynick [n=mynick@81-208-31-216.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:39:10 thinking of switching to nginx, though; pound in not terribly flexible 18:39:11 rsynnott: yes, but i think that was not against the development version or something like that. 18:39:11 drewc: how's your ucw refactoring coming up ? 18:39:13 i've been evaluating nginx in other applications. 18:39:31 -!- mynick [n=mynick@81-208-31-216.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:38 fe[nl]ix: it's done actually, just have to clean it up and push it. 18:39:40 squid is the only caching proxy that i could find that revalidates cache entries instead of dropping them after they have expired 18:39:41 (in particular, it does plain round-robin load-balancing; one of my servers is considerably faster than the others) 18:40:03 jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:10 rsynnott: i've been using pound for years, works quite well. 18:40:17 most of my dynamic content is HIGHLY dynamic, so not too worried about caching it at that level 18:40:33 (some page fragments are cached using memcached) 18:40:41 but not generally whole pages 18:40:53 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 18:41:11 drewc: yep, my only issue with it is that I can't weight servers 18:41:50 H4nsX: i'm pretty confident i fixed the issues with xen on new.cl-net ... should we do the move today or wait for tomorrow? 18:42:00 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.45.123] has joined #lisp 18:42:20 what's the reason that cvs tends to be so slow on c-l.net? 18:42:24 -!- |gas| [n=kvirc@81-208-31-216.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:42:26 drewc: i'll not be able to do much on either day - i'm back in on monday. 18:42:38 tcr: big cvs repositories are generally pretty slow anyway 18:42:50 H4nsX: ok, we'll wait until then. 18:43:14 H4nsX: i'd rather have you available to help fight the inevitable fires that will erupt. 18:43:25 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:43:28 drewc: monday would be fine for that. 18:43:33 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:43:36 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:43:56 H4nsX: ok, monday it is. 18:44:13 H4nsX: would you recommend the dev hunchentoot over Edi's latest release? 18:44:42 rsynnott: depends on who i'd talk to, but generally yes. 18:45:18 what changes have been made? Haven't looked at it in a bit 18:45:23 was thinking of upgrading 18:45:35 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 18:46:00 rsynnott: there are several incompatible api changes that are meant to help with application specific request handler classes. 18:46:58 rsynnott: i would recommend against upgrading at this point in time. we will try to push a release out in the next few weeks, and may eventually include a backwards compatibility package for old applications. 18:47:15 cool, might wait 'til then 18:52:46 still in private beta mode, anyway :) 18:53:13 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:54:35 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:02:28 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:04:44 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 19:06:24 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 19:08:46 Does anyone know if flexi-streams can be used with ECL? 19:09:53 delYsid: i don't think so, because of char-code-limit incompatibilities. 19:11:04 right, thats what I see here... 19:11:25 so no zip.asd on ecl either :-( 19:11:42 non unicode lisps must die 19:11:56 *Xach* wonders how zip uses flexi-streams 19:12:11 delYsid: fwiw, i have chipz working fine on ecl 19:12:20 that only does gzip and deflate though 19:13:36 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:42 flexi-streams works fine on ecl 19:14:10 fe[nl]ix: how? 19:14:47 it worked on openmcl before that wasa unicode, I think 19:15:04 delYsid: by compiling ecl with --enable-unicode 19:15:13 ahh 19:17:58 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:08 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:16 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:19:15 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:22 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:19:43 hmm, but that, doesn't build :-) 19:21:54 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:06 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:22:08 "Frame stack overflow, cannot grow larger." 19:22:59 delYsid: try the patch I just sent to the ecl list 19:23:51 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:05 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:25:30 I'm trying to look up ` in clhs, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to look for. 19:25:37 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 19:25:52 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:26:01 it might be linked off the page for QUOTE, possibly 19:26:09 there's a page for the default readtable somewhere iirc 19:26:13 clhs ` 19:26:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 19:26:18 probably in the reader section 19:26:30 michaelw: thanks! 19:26:32 hah, or that 19:26:42 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:30 booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:12 goodness, Norvig is a political blogger, now :) 19:29:55 rsynnott: link ? 19:30:02 `now'? He did the same thing last elections 19:30:15 http://norvig.com/election-faq.html 19:30:20 ah, I never saw that 19:30:49 it's actually one of the better articles I've seen on the subject 19:32:11 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:33:11 MHOOO [n=yeh@u-5-108.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:34:44 Anyone here knows how I can get sldb-show-source to work? Whenever I try it I get "frame-source-location not implemented. (frame: #
)". 19:35:08 MHOOO: which lisp? 19:35:08 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:25 clisp 19:35:46 With cvs emacs + cvs slime 19:36:10 And clisp v 2.46 19:36:35 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 19:37:04 MHOOO: I don't know about clisp, but sbcl can do it 19:37:14 tcr: who-specializes and _sub_classes? What's your use case? 19:38:06 michaelw: I'm on an windows environment. SBCL isn't maintained well enough I think. Oh well... 19:41:18 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 19:42:06 joshe: You mean ecl-catch-stack-overflow.patch? 19:42:13 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:43:31 whichever one just moves ECL_SET(@'si::*interrupt-enable*', Ct); to inside of the else clause at the bottom of init_unixint() 19:43:47 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:45:08 joshe: is that for x86_64 only ? ecl compiles fine here 19:45:09 alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 19:45:30 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:45:30 dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 19:45:40 -!- fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 19:46:22 it's for people who happen to not be lucky when using uninitialized data 19:46:30 Keith_M_ [n=keith@oit-134-195.OIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:47:06 -!- Keith_M_ [n=keith@oit-134-195.OIT.EDU] has left #lisp 19:47:07 Keith_M_ [n=keith@oit-134-195.OIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:47:17 -!- Keith_M_ [n=keith@oit-134-195.OIT.EDU] has left #lisp 19:48:08 metawilm [n=willem@78.52.98.112] has joined #lisp 19:48:35 MHOOO: #+clisp (getf (get 'f 'system::doc) 'system::file) 19:48:45 Krystof: It's how ccl's who-specializes behaves. I had no opinion, so I went for the only opinion I heard, and that was Xach's. 19:50:07 pjb: What exactly am I supposed to do with that line :?) 19:50:39 delYsid: it looks like sourceforge has not yet deigned to relay my email to the list, but you can just open up src/c/unixint.d, to the bottom of the file, and move ECL_SET(@'si::*interrupt-enable*', Ct); one like up 19:50:43 *one line up 19:51:49 where has SQLisp gone? I can't find any sources. The project page at cl.net says "No files have been checked into CVS". And Googling for it doesn't find anything useful. 19:52:22 jgracin: what was it? 19:52:26 SQL interface? 19:53:32 rsynnott: "SQLisp is a functional modeling of the relational algebra in Common Lisp" 19:54:00 MHOOO: use to to implement sldb-show-source on clisp. 19:54:06 s/to to/it to/ 19:54:32 I've heard about it several times. This is the first time I tried looking for it. 19:55:04 -!- vasa-work [n=None@212.98.167.157] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 19:55:11 pjb: Can I do that without recompiling clisp? 19:55:26 MHOOO: (apropos "FRAME" "SYSTEM") 19:55:36 *MHOOO* does 19:55:40 silenius_ [n=jl@p5B25DB35.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:10 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.15.80] has joined #lisp 19:57:11 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 19:58:04 joshe: that appears to have helped, thanks! 19:58:38 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 19:58:46 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:00:43 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:01:42 jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 20:06:35 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2206460f7ae41a85] has joined #lisp 20:07:51 you're welcome 20:08:08 -!- silenius [n=jl@p5B25D84C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:09 -!- jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:09:17 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:49 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:02 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@77-253-106-38.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:21 jazen3 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 20:16:01 Now I get "The symbol STREAM-ELEMENT-TYPE is bound to an ordinary function and is not a valid name for a generic function." in in-memory.lisp. 20:16:14 which doesn't make sense at all. 20:17:15 delYsid: you need to patch trivial-gray-streams 20:19:02 delYsid: or simply add this to your .eclrc : 20:19:03 (when (fboundp 'gray::redefine-cl-functions) 20:19:03 (gray::redefine-cl-functions)) 20:19:59 in package.lisp? 20:20:47 jjgarcia posted a patch on the ecl list a few months ago 20:21:32 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 20:22:41 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:53 fe[nl]ix: thanks, that helped. 20:23:01 -!- alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:04 *rvirding* says hello everyone 20:24:18 MOP question... any class that inherits a class that uses a metaclass will also inherit that metaclass, correct? Inheritance works as normal? 20:25:05 sykopomp: yep, seems to :) 20:25:11 wonderful, thank you :) 20:27:33 delYsid: it seems that trivial-gray-streams HEAD already has that patch 20:27:55 -!- birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:28:30 -!- silenius_ is now known as silenius 20:31:01 -!- jazen2 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:39 I don't think so. That doesn't make sense with multiple inheritance. 20:33:02 fe[nl]ix: I didn't find its cannonical dev repo, where is it? 20:33:32 *tcr* finds a bug in his with-readtable-iterator implementation. 20:33:49 delYsid: :pserver:anonymous@common-lisp.net:/project/cl-plus-ssl/cvsroot 20:35:07 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dslb-082-083-038-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:41 dkcl [n=Dan6688@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 20:35:45 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:36:10 fe[nl]ix: I get some strange PAM error when trying to use that CVSROOT. 20:36:20 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:36:41 done [n=gerd@p5790BC84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:53 unrecognized auth response from common-lisp.net: pam failed to release authenticator 20:37:07 delYsid: try to login first 20:37:08 -!- jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:37:37 cvs login with empty password gives the same error 20:37:50 argh, nm 20:39:01 jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 20:39:38 rsynnott: gives bad advice. You must explicitly state a metaclass if it is not to be standard-class for defclass forms (or structure-class for defstruct forms) 20:39:53 vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 20:40:29 ah :( 20:41:42 Keith_M_ [n=keith@oit-134-195.OIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:41:46 -!- Keith_M_ [n=keith@oit-134-195.OIT.EDU] has left #lisp 20:42:42 -!- dkcl [n=Dan6688@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["Back in a bit"] 20:43:14 timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:44:02 -!- done [n=gerd@p5790BC84.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:44:58 done [n=done@p5790BC84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:14 -!- done [n=done@p5790BC84.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:51:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:52:01 *sykopomp* is generating 500,000 persistent objects for testing. This will take a while 20:52:25 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:52:27 it will? :) 20:52:32 Oh? That's exactly what I wanted to talk about. (Persistence.) 20:52:38 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-24.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:52:53 oh wow. Maybe I shouldn't do this right now 20:52:59 833 hours D: 20:53:08 -!- timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:15 sykopomp: Are you using Elephant? 20:53:26 no, I'm using bknr's datastore 20:53:50 Overall, how do you like it? I know it's a loaded question. 20:53:51 wait, no, my math sucks. Ugh 20:53:59 I'm just very dismayed at my options. 20:54:20 My problem is that I want a very hard problem solved for free. 20:54:22 Piranha__: give me a little while before I can judge. So far, it looks fantastic. It took me about 20 minutes to convert my entire program over to it (I was using cl-store before) 20:55:07 I want everything in Lisp to be persisted to disk; even classes and objects (eg cons cells) not explicitly considered "persistent" with systems like Elephant. Oh, and the dataset is expected to be larger than RAM capacity. 20:55:46 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has quit ["leaving"] 20:56:06 Probably my best bet is to bite the bullet and either do SQL contortions or an explicit disk-based approach (especially for my data indices; lots of binary twiddling to do there). 20:56:54 looks like it'll take about 50 minutes to generate a database of 500,000 objects to run tests on >_> 20:57:20 Piranha__: bknr is pretty neat, from what I've read (and tried). It keeps everything in-memory and writes logs of changes to disk 20:57:34 which means, less disk abuse, if you can afford to keep everything in-memory (you usually can) 20:57:49 it also has support for BLOBs, for when you don't want to load up large binary junk 20:57:51 depends on how much larger, the architecture, etc. You could just go with a huge image. 20:58:29 *hefner* is fascinated by persistence, wishes he had an excuse to explore the possibilities 20:58:31 pkhuong: My experience, at least on machines with slow disk I/O (encrypted swap, Xen, etc.) is that SBCL GC + swap is a nightmare. 20:59:29 also... clisp is fantastic. I was using python for quick command-line arithmetic, but clisp's shell repl is great :D 20:59:33 Minutes-long pauses when a full GC occurs. 20:59:43 Piranha__: so make sure they don't get GCed 20:59:58 <_zenon_> sykopomp, might I suggest ghci as well for fast command line arithmetics? 20:59:58 sykopomp: I use always clisp as a calculator too. 20:59:58 -!- jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:18 _zenon_: I have that installed, too :) 21:00:30 <_zenon_> sykopomp, nice :) Are you an original Haskelller as well? 21:00:33 pkhuong: I like CLOS. =/ Sorry, I know I've brought this up before. 21:00:37 <_zenon_> haskeller* 21:00:44 Piranha__: huh? 21:00:50 nope, I was running xmonad for some time, and I'm slowly trying to learn haskell when I have a lot of free time 21:01:18 <_zenon_> sykopomp, Well, you'll love it. ;) Type-safety really cuts the bugs 21:01:28 pkhuong: IIRC, you suggested that I do something like allocate memory on heap outside of garbage-collected memory, such as with the FFI. Then do low-level manipulation of that memory. 21:01:36 This was some months ago. At least I think it was you. 21:01:46 I like lisp. Haskell looks interesting. Not terribly convinced by the types argument, but I don't mind learning something :P 21:02:06 I've heard some fantastic stories about haskell's type safety, though. 21:02:23 jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 21:02:26 jsnell has some code somewhere which allows to view mmap()ed memory as a CL array 21:02:30 Haskell is cool. It's a new paradigms, and they're always good to knomw. 21:02:36 MHOOO: well, it seems there's not enough information kept in the executable, and not enough information exported from SYSTEM to be able to do it purely in lisp. 21:02:39 Piranha__: that's certainly an option, depending on the requirements. I simply meant that you can control what gest GCed. 21:02:43 tic: LIES! JAVA IS ALL YOU NEED! 21:02:51 <_zenon_> correction: haskell is awesome 21:02:54 pkhuong: How else would I do that? mmap? 21:03:05 pjb: Yeah, I thought so too. 21:03:07 SBCL has a generational GC on x86(-64). Evict your big data to the oldest generation, and make sure it never gets GCed 21:03:16 pstickne, ...? 21:03:32 pkhuong, nursery/mature or more? 21:03:49 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:04:06 pkhuong: That's something I haven't heard of. Presumably there's a way to ensure that new objects don't make it into the oldest generation, in order to avoid accumulating garbage, right? 21:04:08 tic: ahh, that's the mentality of certain teachers here ... it has to be ``OO'' (and, since it's Java, it has to be bad OO at that :-) nevermind that functional and "OO" paradigms aren't orthogonal 21:04:34 tic: just brainwashing of CS students, that's all ^^ 21:04:40 Piranha__: nope. You'll want a minute-long GC from time to time. However, with 6-7 generations, you'd have to be pretty unlucky. 21:04:51 pstickne, what are you on about? :) 21:04:53 pstickne: (defclass function () (...)) (defmethod apply ((self function) &rest args) ... ) ;-) 21:05:11 tic: [certain] "CS teachers" at my school :P 21:05:41 ``This design is not object oriented'' 21:05:44 640kB is all you need... 21:05:50 15 minutes into object generation: 13M transaction-log 21:05:52 pstickne, when I went to school we were being taught Haskell first, then Java, fwiw. 21:05:56 I need a faster hard drive D: 21:06:05 -!- jazen3 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:06:06 <_zenon_> sykopomp, well, I fell in love with lisp after an BNFC assignment in programming languages class where you had to define the lisp grammar in BNFC, it was so simple, and elegant. 21:06:14 tic: one is a die-hard OO fanatic (only uses/KNOWS Java?) -- yet he scoffs at ST and seems to think that functional and object-oriented paradigms are orthogonal concepts 21:06:28 _zenon_: CL is nothing like that, really. 21:06:34 tic: our "survey" course isn't until Junior year :( 21:06:46 _zenon_: I like lisp because it does what I like. Common Lisp is a gigantic monster, though. 21:06:48 tic: an it doesn't cover pure FP or declarative 21:07:09 sykopomp: LOVE THE LOOP! 21:07:30 pstickne: not a lot of people do, and I avoid it unless necessary 21:07:36 pstickne, deal with it, write Lisp on your spare time. 21:07:47 pstickne, for bonus points, make CLOS versions of all assignments. 21:08:12 you could also hack a small object system that works like javas... 21:08:13 <3 clos so much 21:08:24 Hun: .... :| 21:08:39 sykopomp: CL has like, what, 25 special forms. that's hardly a monster... 21:08:47 tic: I find the "deal with it" a bogus solution -- I try to promote other languages as much as I can and point out misunderstandings. I've moved at least one student from C# to F#/Haskell/Clean and another from Java to Scala :-) 21:08:47 Hun, lambda and closures? 21:09:52 tic: I end up using Scala -- because I like it, it works nice with Java and I can convince my teachers that it's "just a better Java with a different syntax" :-) 21:10:10 tic: why not? it's enough for simple cases 21:10:20 Hun, I haven't disapproved. 21:10:21 jazen3 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 21:10:31 (people at my school are scared of parenthesis -- I swear they must all code in notepad :-/) 21:10:31 Hun, rather pointless in Lisp when you have CLOS, though. 21:10:32 <_zenon_> michaelw, well, I've just started reading Practical Common Lisp , and It doesn't seem off from what I remember, what is so grammatically different ? 21:10:33 did the same to learn some ruby (which i don't really like or grok) 21:10:38 FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:00 -!- jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:19 Piranha__: fwiw, I think I mentioned the low level access to foreign memory because you were worried about `performance', in which case the regular CLOS object layout is far from ideal. 21:12:11 <_zenon_> tic, you in Gothenburg? 21:12:17 _zenon_: you can't parse CL with a BNF grammar because the reader is user-extensible 21:12:34 zenbalrog, yeah. 21:12:57 you can parse s-exps though! :) 21:13:10 that one is pretty trivial :) 21:13:23 You can parse the standard reader macros. 21:13:36 tic: s-exps cannot be read without standard reader macros. 21:13:48 pkhuong: So, when you mention eviction to the oldest generation, do you mean there's an option to do that explicitly (ala "purify")? 21:13:59 I can't find any mention of such a feature. 21:14:03 pjb, so add quote. 21:14:54 Piranha__: (loop repeat 7 do (sb-ext:gc :full t)) 21:15:27 ouch. 21:15:35 Heh, interesting. 21:15:41 or only once, actually. 21:15:45 <_zenon_> michaelw, how do you mean? 21:15:58 _zenon_, yeah, Gothenburg. 21:16:02 yeah, once is enough. 21:16:17 _zenon_: Common Lisp's syntax is customizable. 21:16:20 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:16:39 <_zenon_> tic, okay, me 2 21:16:45 pkhuong: Thanks for letting me know about that. 21:16:57 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:17:04 <_zenon_> tcr, mhm. 21:17:14 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-24.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:17:28 _zenon_, you should have a look at Practical Common Lisp. 21:17:35 minion, tell _zenon_ about that-dead-sexy-book 21:17:36 _zenon_: direct your attention towards that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:17:37 <_zenon_> tic, I'm reading it 21:17:42 _zenon_, good. 21:18:39 re parsing cl with a bnf grammar: doesn't it depend when you do macro expansion, while reading or after? 21:18:40 -!- user_ [n=user@p5492644B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:18:48 -!- jazen3 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:00 rvirding: macro expansion is never done while reading. 21:19:04 jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 21:19:11 I don't think it discusses reader macros. Fwiw, the controversial book _Let Over Lambda_ discusses them. 21:19:37 but then you should be able to parse with a bnf 21:19:54 pjb: I'm not sure if I should mention #., because I know you know it, etc 21:20:40 #. makes a macroexpansion time, compilation time and runtime be interleaved in a read time. But this macroexpansion is done in the interleaved macroexpansion time, not during the enclosing read time. 21:20:42 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 21:21:32 *tcr* should not have mentioned it :) 21:22:11 rvirding: On my REPL I can enter +3+1/2 and it evaluates to 7/2. this is not standard, so how would you catch that with a BNF without knowing about it from the beginning? 21:23:00 but then you're not entering an sexpr are you? And that is what i thought discussion was all about 21:23:33 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 21:24:02 (atom +3+1/2) => T, (type-of +3+1/2) => RATIO 21:25:03 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:26:21 but then you have entered an atom, so what is the problem? 21:27:02 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:27:03 atom is s-exp 21:27:26 -!- FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:56 that is what i mean, you have netered an atom which is an s-expr, which can be parsed byt bnf 21:27:59 rvirding: s-expr is the textual representation of Lisp objects, not the object's (readable) print representation 21:28:13 rvirding: a BNF is a static description; Lisp syntax is dynamic. 21:28:51 tcr: s-expr are symbolic expressions, that is, atoms or lists of s-expr. 21:29:01 There's nothing textual in s-expr. 21:29:04 dynamic in what way, the structure of an s-expr in static. 21:29:13 A single s-expr has several textual representations. 21:29:32 eg. the s-expr 1/2 has as textual representations: "1/2" and "2/4". 21:29:33 *tcr* leaves Babylon, getting something done instead. 21:29:42 rvirding: Lisp syntax isn't limited to s-expressions 21:29:55 adeht: what else can you read? 21:30:14 pjb: whatever your macro reader function can read 21:30:36 atoms and lists form a partition of all lisp objects. 21:30:57 Whatever you can build from a reader macro will be either, thus a s-expr. 21:31:01 -!- booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:31:08 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:31:09 ah well, you just crushed one of my most cherished beliefs, it's back to operators and fixed syntax then. :-) 21:31:30 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 21:31:58 pjb: by `s-expressions' I am talking about a specific textual representation. I guess you have a different definition for that. I won't argue over definitions. 21:32:38 adeht: that's an important feature of lisp: it's not defined from textual representations, but from s-expressions that are structured objects. 21:32:55 (contrarily from scheme, for example). 21:33:03 adeht: I discovered a bug in my with-readtable-iterator implementation; it returned #\# twice. The specification doesn't say anything about it, I think it should. 21:33:33 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:40 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:55 pjb: I recognize the feature, but I don't call it "s-expressions". 21:34:16 tcr: good idea 21:35:06 chitech [n=khuongdp@0x573a1fb3.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:35:52 -!- Jarvellis is now known as Musashi 21:35:53 persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:36:00 -!- Musashi is now known as Jarvellis 21:37:49 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:38:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:52 manas [n=alekar@cpe-76-170-76-65.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:38 -!- persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 21:39:57 I am trying to run SBCL 1.0.20 with aquamacs 14:38 *** NAMES manas Adamant persi chitech daniel obsethryl Liempt jazen schme_ lemoinem fe[nl]ix vasa teilzeitstudent rvirding arbscht_ ehu gonzojive ikki silenius metawilm schoppenhauer rdd dthomp sabetts MHOOO LiamH jmbr ace4016 alexsuraci emma eno _zenon_ x6j8x jlouis oudeis H4nsX bedlam pjb turjo name lemonodor Renatobico boyscared araujo smolyn mld bombshelter13 jew 21:39:58 el felzix sohail EvanR replor_ manic12_ njsg segv_ slash_ chris2 dash__ herbieB enn ahaas drewc vcgomes[away] Bucciarati kg4qxk azuk` Partyzant Tristam hefner thijso msingh slyrus hsaliak_ sykopomp esden`away brandelune cods housel envi_office2 hugod pjm Paraselene__ kpreid _YKY_ bobrown`` NoorDextor cmm jk Guest26197 Adrinael mvilleneuve lucca Xach chii jamesjb patmatch guenther__ SUNWjoejaxx Fractal cipher kuhzoo 21:39:58 fnordus pdewacht jrockway r0bby tic sboyette Paraselene_ mqt zbigniew thedonvaughn radu9 specbot minion dfox Balooga Chrononaut andrewy olejorgenb delYsid sburson REPLeffect mcxx dboswell bunz Fade chandler bohanlon mathrick scode aking rumbleca joga tessier maxote Buganini cmeme dublpaws Patzy z0d srcerer jkantz te jgrant CrazyEddy kreuter billstclair Xof bdowning manveru wolfboy22 e271 simias ineiros cYmen jollygo 21:40:03 od_______ authentic rsynnott duranain xinming Soulman_ fihi09``` Draggor froog wlr djkthx bob_f m4thrick_ Thas nasloc__ DrForr jlf` cracki abend weirdo moesenle dostoyevsky pierre_thierry S11001001 nullwork nullwork_ solus Eno_ fisxoj mogunus yahooooo Khisanth l_a_m mgr JuanDaugherty adeht l4ndfo amnesiac xan isomer Krystof Tordek gigamonkey rtoym dto cky ramus` foom qebab bfein erg zenbalrog Zhivago mikezor esden R 21:40:06 oh god 21:40:08 iastradh maskd johs gz sbok_ egn pok sad0ur oof lde mtd spiaggia joshe dcrawford mrd- eirik turbo24prg jsimonss p8m _3b faheem Jarvellis yango beach ak70 Belaf ths sunwukong holycow tst__ tarbo Jabberwo_ trebor_home jgracin Hun scottj ia schasi prxq hkBst tcr tltstc stassats willb puchacz jpcooper Yuuhi albino_ borism_ antoszka ``Erik Ifur plutonas Piranha__ dmiles_afk prip nowhereman xjrn phadthai kmkaplan felipe k 21:40:08 ugh 21:40:10 http://dadadadaaa.110mb.com/ 21:40:11 Death to manas 21:40:12 ahm 21:40:13 leppari jsnell ccl-logbot Aisling pkhuong ianmcorvidae eevar_ bougyman sely BrianRice djinni`` awayekos clog lisppaste hnaz mornfall @antifuchs Leonidas technik pragma_ xian michaelw V-ille [eDu] lnostdal keithr larstobi wgl agemo 21:40:14 -!- manas [n=alekar@cpe-76-170-76-65.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:18 What now? 21:40:19 wow, spam 21:40:23 tcr: greetings 21:40:33 Yay! It's everyone in the channel! 21:40:38 /ignore is your friend ^^ 21:40:41 Hooray! 21:40:51 Now that we're all awake, how is everyone's Saturday going? 21:41:01 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 21:41:07 tessier, fine thanks! 21:41:09 *S11001001* writes an exerciser for a Clozure maybe-bug 21:41:17 S11001001: Heya. 21:41:19 manas [n=alekar@cpe-76-170-76-65.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:24 it includes a bisect implementation if anyone wants one 21:41:34 tessier: very well, thanks... wasting time looking @ lolcats :p (lambda cats are known by heart :p) 21:41:36 *_zenon_* ? 21:42:24 lemoinem: +b is better :) 21:42:45 PriceChild [i=pricechi@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.pricechild] has joined #lisp 21:42:57 SUNWjoejaxx: that's a buggy client 21:43:00 Ijeroj [n=yeh@3-053.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:43:02 lemoinem: lambda cats? 21:43:04 SUNWjoejaxx: good idea too, but it's requiring someone with the access 21:43:23 well, that was shockingly pleasant, working the first time and all 21:43:23 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 21:43:36 -!- MHOOO [n=yeh@u-5-108.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:41 btw tcr, I don't think it needs to be explicitly mentioned that an iterator ought to return each character only once 21:43:44 _zenon__ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:43:47 tessier: yeah... http://arcanux.org/lambdacats.html 21:43:54 Are there any known issues with SBCL and SLIME that ships with Aquamacs ? SLIME keeps aborting, saying sbcl-swank not found. It seems SBCL refuses to compile some swank code. I am running 1.0.20 and SLIME 2006-04-21, well that is the one which ships with the latest aquamcs. 21:43:57 tessier, http://arcanux.org/lambdacats.html -- beware though that the Haskell community rules them :) 21:44:12 found the problem bisecting between 10 and 1000 in 10 trials 21:44:33 stassats: what buggy client spams nicks into the channel? 21:45:00 S11001001: as expected :) 21:45:01 SUNWjoejaxx: that's not a spam 21:45:29 michaelw: well I expected to have to fight more bugs in my test first :) 21:45:29 heh...nice 21:45:42 SUNWjoejaxx: It was not the client. I made a mistake. I am using emacs to connect to IRC. 21:45:53 http://myblog.rsynnott.com/2008/06/few-lispcats.html lispcats are better 21:45:56 *reads backlog* 21:46:08 manas: you probably need a newer slime 21:46:13 i was hoping someone on #lisp actually wanted to talk to me specifically, but i guess not 21:46:17 i am so sad now :'( 21:46:19 pjb: I guess a lot of disputes come from the fact that the term "expression" is ambiguous, as the CLHS glossary entry shows. 21:46:24 S11001001: Instead of "... invocation of (name) will return the macro characters, one by one, from the readtable.", it now says "... invocation of (name) will return the macro characters, one by one but each one once, from readtable." 21:46:25 is there anyone else running a very recent Clozure (at least r10867) who can verify my results? 21:46:38 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16BEFC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:46:49 rsynnott: is there a new release or do I need to pull it from CVS ? 21:46:50 stassats: oh great... was hoping for them ;) 21:47:01 pull it from cvs 21:47:02 manas: i also use emacs to connect to IRC, and i have never pasted the entire channel list into a channel 21:47:05 or there's a nightly tarball 21:47:08 i'm not even sure how i would do that if i *wanted* to 21:47:24 S11001001: 1.2-r10892M-trunk here 21:47:38 jrockway: mistake with the mouse, perhaps 21:47:58 stassats: mass highlighting is spam ;) 21:48:09 i have pasted stuff into the erc buffer with the mouse, but not sent it to the channel 21:48:14 S11001001 pasted "a trial (load it and call find-eql-method-failure)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67940 21:48:24 jrockway: you need to be stupid enough. rsynott: no, I moved paragraphs in the wrong window. 21:48:36 anyway, my rage has subsided now 21:48:41 jrockway: haha :) 21:48:43 it is hard to get mad at people who use emacs 21:49:00 jrockway: :P 21:49:11 erm, RMS? :) 21:49:39 S11001001, adeht: I think implementations are allowed to extend the predefined set of standard macro characters in their standard readtable. 21:49:45 hahah, rms just makes me giggle 21:49:58 "we must not use git for emacs!" 21:50:07 Could we stay on topic, please? 21:50:08 ok, sure... you can call whatever you use official, and everyone else will use git 21:50:17 jazen3 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 21:50:17 lispers, apologies for my brain-dead-ness 21:50:37 manas: you should apologize to everyone by name! :) 21:50:52 stassats annotated #67940 with "results" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67940#1 21:50:57 jrockway: I think there are large contingents of Mercurial and Bazaar users who will object, but thanks for bringing that up 21:50:58 tis call-by-name semantics confuse me 21:51:16 good, that's exactly what I got, thanks stassats 21:51:16 S11001001: here they are 21:51:29 if you're free to not use cvs, he's also free to choose whatever system he prefers :) 21:51:56 that would be fine if he were still the maintainer :) 21:52:03 but anyway, this *is* off topic 21:52:15 and i don't care all that much, since i have a grand total of about 20 lines of code in emacs 21:52:24 jrockway: haha ! I don't remember how I can do that :P 21:52:31 :) 21:53:01 oh my god. bknr.datastore is fantastic 21:53:22 sykopomp: how so? 21:53:24 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:31 S11001001: Do you have any opinion on the :macro-char vs. :macro-chars issue? 21:53:51 rsynnott: I just finished creating 450,000 objects. No problems (except I got impatient and killed the loop before it got to 500k) 21:53:54 tcr: no 21:54:05 cool :) 21:54:08 take long to do? 21:54:10 I killed the snapshot process halfway, killed the inferior-slime session 21:54:13 and I'm now reloading everything 21:54:17 do you have indexes and so on on them? 21:54:20 it's doing it pretty fast, actually 21:54:25 no, no indexes yet 21:54:36 I'm gonna have to do that next, but I'll try it overnight 21:54:41 oh, why did it need hunchentoot, in the end? 21:54:42 (loop repeat 500000 do (cons 'new 'object)) ; I just created 500,000 objects too! 21:54:54 tcr: does it say so explicitly? 21:55:08 hefner: ah, but yours aren't in scary XML now :) 21:55:10 (make-list 500000) 21:55:12 hefner: I prefer dotimes when I'm just doing something a bunch of times 21:55:29 hefner: and these are persistent objects. It took about 45 minutes to generate them all 21:55:39 which is nice, considering it was all written to HDD 21:56:26 I find this appallingly inefficient, but that's just the price of a persistent moon on a stick 21:56:27 adeht: clhs 2.4 says "The macro characters defined initially in a conforming implementation _include_ the following: " (emphasis mine) 21:56:38 actually, sykopomp: sounds like terrible performance 21:56:53 elephant does better, certainly 21:56:58 but is possibly messier 21:57:24 bnkr's probably designed for low write volumes 21:57:37 depends on hardware 21:57:40 you don't make sense. 21:57:48 me? :( 21:58:05 what software uses mel-base? need some examples 21:58:05 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:58:27 oudeis: mel, probably stamp 21:58:37 mel had vanished from the intarweb last time I looked for it 21:59:18 no, i was referring to the "elephant certainly does better" thing. 21:59:20 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:59:27 ah 21:59:31 in terms of write speeds 21:59:46 I'm honestly quite impressed about generating, serializing, and writing all those objects in a pretty short amount of time 21:59:49 hefner: looking for stamp on cliki can't find anything 21:59:58 and honestly, this many objects would only ever be created over the span of years, if ever 22:00:11 oudeis: http://common-lisp.net/projects/stamp/ 22:00:17 sykopomp: 45 minutes for 500k objects does not really sound impressive to me, though. 22:00:27 sykopomp: are you committing them all one by one? 22:00:39 H4nsX: yup 22:00:52 ah, that would explain it :) 22:01:01 george [n=george@189.107.186.203] has joined #lisp 22:01:05 well, whatever (dotimes (i 500000) (make-instance 'object)) does, which is probably write them one at a time :P 22:01:05 sykopomp: probably not the best way to use it 22:01:29 tcr: that speaks of the initial readtable, but I don't think there's any requirement that it be a copy of the standard readtable at the time the Lisp image is started (it would be weird otherwise). 22:01:33 is art of metaobject protocol a good book ? 22:01:33 actually, I apologise; elephant probably does similarly under those conditions 22:01:34 sykopomp: wrap it in a with-transaction :) 22:01:39 george: ack 22:01:40 185 objects per second, or ~10 million machine cycles per object :) 22:01:49 H4nsX: alright, let's try that 22:01:51 H4nsX: will it tolerate that much data per transaction? 22:01:53 H4nsX: ack ? 22:01:57 imagine that on a 486... 22:02:00 george: yes. 22:02:05 rsynnott: lets see. 22:02:13 sounds enterprise grade to me ;) 22:02:25 should be read before or after on lisp ? 22:02:26 hefner: most of it is probably IO wait rather than proper machine cycles 22:02:44 rsynnott: I'm skeptical of that. 22:02:55 adeht: I didn't understand your comment. 22:03:04 sykopomp: how much storage do your 500k objects take on disk? 22:03:16 george: on lisp is about macros, and amop is about CLOS 22:03:22 hefner: thanks 22:03:30 tcr: the sentence you quoted speaks about what is "defined initially", i.e. the initial readtable. 22:03:34 adeht: Notice that the initial readtable is specified to "conform to standard syntax" just like the standard readtable. And "conforms to standard syntax" is weasel-wordy enough. 22:03:37 stassats: so what is better to learn first ? 22:03:56 -!- silenius [n=jl@p5B25DB35.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:03:57 if it's using an implicit transaction per object, then it's presumably flushing to at least the OS 500,000 times 22:04:00 which ain't cheap 22:04:12 (your average disk can do MAYBE 200 tps) 22:04:21 hehehe... heap-exhausted >_> 22:04:23 george: do you think more in objects doing fancy stuff or mangling languages around? 22:04:31 george: i'd go with on lisp, or first with keene's book 22:04:45 rsynnott: even with the new cover sheet? 22:04:46 amop sounds rather advanced 22:04:56 -!- manas [n=alekar@cpe-76-170-76-65.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 22:04:58 new cover sheet? 22:05:04 Hun: do you have a third option ? =/ 22:05:05 hefner: the current/ folder is 157M. That includes a snapshot and a transaction-log 22:05:21 adeht: I first thought "standard readtable = exactly what standards specifies"; "initial readtable = standard-readtable + impl-dependent stuff"; but that thought seems not to be correct. 22:05:27 george: going back to javaland? :P 22:05:36 michaelw: thanks 22:05:38 manas [n=alekar@cpe-76-170-76-65.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:03 stassats: kenne's book ? is about what ? 22:06:07 tcr: how come? 22:06:19 minion: tell george about keene 22:06:20 george: have a look at keene: "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya E Keene. http://www.cliki.net/keene 22:06:35 Hun: i speak c++ ... i come in peace 22:06:42 Hun: =) 22:06:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:07:11 george: i'd read it before AMOP, but not sure about before/after On Lisp 22:07:16 adeht: Because 2.1.1.3 says that the initial readtable conforms to standard syntax, too. And exactly the same phrase is used in 2.1.1.2. 22:07:36 adeht: i.e. the requirements for the standard readtable is not expressed more strictly 22:07:41 tcr: conforms to standard syntax means that it "contains" the behavior of the standard readtable. 22:08:08 adeht: Indeed 22:08:12 george: the third choice: read them in parallel 22:08:18 adeht: That's my point 22:08:36 tcr: so it doesn't speak of the non-standard syntax. which is consistent with initial readtable = standard readtable + extensions. 22:08:51 stassats: should i start migrating from scheme to lisp with "pratical common lisp" ? 22:08:59 rsynnott: the CVS snapshot works like a charm. I will just say that I replaced the slime folder located in "/Applications/Aquamacs Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/site-lisp/edit-modes" with latest slime in case this gets logged somewhere. 22:09:07 george: it's a good book, yes 22:09:15 stassats: or you recommend the kenne book first ? 22:09:27 adeht: 2.1.1.2 doesn't say "The standard readtable is defined by standard syntax", but "the standard readtable conforms to standard syntax" 22:09:40 george: no, PCL is certainly first 22:09:51 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:55 sorry guys, i will have to drop common lisp (clos) in favor to more efficient language as Java or SmartEiffel :( 22:09:58 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:10:16 stassats: pcl < kenne's < amop < on lisp ? 22:10:36 stassats: or should i change ? 22:10:49 i think: pcl < keene OR on lisp < amop 22:10:55 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:11:46 adeht: Of course, I still think that putting extensions into the standard readtable is a silly thing to do. But if you really want to "fix" clisp that way, I'd ask the maintainers first. I recall them being picky about it. 22:11:47 also, beware of PG's War on COND :) 22:11:51 -!- _zenon__ is now known as _zenon_ 22:12:51 maxote: efficient in what way? have you measured? 22:13:00 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:13:19 in the way of manage many objects (aprox. 10 millions of objects) 22:13:21 stassats: what about paip ? 22:13:42 sykopomp: did you run the 500k make-instance's in one transaction? did your heap explode? 22:13:45 george: it's good too 22:13:51 we found in erlang, and I expect it is the same in lisp, that when you finally get down to it the application isn't slower 22:13:53 H4nsX: yeah, heap exploded :P 22:14:08 maxote: what types of objects? 22:14:17 george: i'd place on the PCL's "level" 22:14:25 it 22:14:28 objects of the hierachy of classes 22:14:46 H4nsX: anyways, they're all created, so I ran some tests. Took 172 seconds to asdf-load everything (which ends with (make-instance 'mp-store .. ) ) 22:14:53 vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 22:15:06 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:15:07 why should that wok better in another language? 22:15:08 sykopomp: not completely unexpected - the transaction is logged to the heap. you might consider increasing your heap limits if you are working with stores with more than 500k objects. 22:15:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:15:20 tcr: I agree with your 2.1.1.1 argument, but that doesn't answer my initial question. I asked if it said so explicitly, and the answer is, I suspect, "no". 22:15:22 stassats: ok ... because i intent to move to robottics and algorithims latter 22:15:42 stassats: how much time to read PCL btw ? 22:15:54 H4nsX: never really gonna do massive operations like these. I just needed something to run tests with 22:15:58 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:16:16 adeht: I found the "include" argument pretty explicit; but I read over the "initially" 22:16:16 maxote: Sorry to come in late, but Java isn't going to be more efficient for handling large numbers of objects. 22:16:18 -!- manas [n=alekar@cpe-76-170-76-65.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:16:32 pjm, and Eiffel? 22:16:36 george: can't say, i read it sporadicaly 22:16:44 I work with Java to build distributed systems in my day job, and the footprint is pretty large. 22:16:49 I don't know Eiffel, sorry. 22:17:18 an object is an object, it will take about the same space in most systems, i guess 22:17:29 I believe, from minimal exposure, that Eiffel is closer to C/C++ in terms of footprint, but don't quote me. 22:18:01 rvirding: Well, Java's JVM isn't particularly efficient in the ways it stores objects. 22:18:05 tcr: so I think both agree that, from what we know, clisp is conforming. 22:18:22 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:18:32 We typically recommend that our customers create a byte array for the data they don't need to search on, then reinflate the object on the other side. 22:18:44 dkcl [n=Dan6688@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 22:18:49 didn't think so anyway 22:18:53 -!- jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:18:57 H4nsX: also, I think it took me about 10 minutes to convert everything to bknr.datastore. Thanks for the awesome work :) 22:18:58 jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 22:19:12 is this for *storing* objects or *sending* them somewhere 22:19:15 ? 22:19:29 it's for persistence 22:19:32 or prevalence 22:19:45 it's for objects to not poof when your lisp dies 22:19:48 sykopomp: you're welcome, glad you like it. what compiler do you use? 22:19:51 adeht: I'd phrase it the other way around; it's not possible to argue gaplessly for its non-conformance. :-) 22:19:59 H4nsX: sbcl on i686 22:20:03 on linux 22:20:11 err .20 22:20:18 then you must store on disk anyway, so I don't get why lisp would be worse 22:20:20 1.0.20 22:20:20 :) 22:20:23 sykopomp: ok, good. i do have an issue with unbound slots on clozure cl, but that won't affect you. 22:20:32 :P 22:22:13 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-17.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:22:37 tcr: so it needs to be phrased as a question to the clisp developers: wouldn't it be nice if the standard readtable contain just the standard syntax behavior? 22:22:40 H4nsX: everyone making such a system seems to have an issue along those lines 22:22:51 elephant has ccl weirdness too 22:23:16 H4nsX: is there a way to make a snapshot without blocking or slowing things down that doesn't make things crash and burn in hellfire? I'm haping I can take snapshots in the background without slowdown 22:23:27 *looks nervously at rsynnott as he hacks on cl-sql under ccl* 22:23:40 tcr: or rather, just the _defined_ standard syntax behavior.. 22:23:42 pjm: oodbs, that is 22:23:47 adeht: yes, it looks like we have to keep the textual interpretation for s-expression and m-expression, because both, once read, resolve to atoms and lists... 22:23:49 clsql should probably be fine 22:24:03 Cool, thanks. 22:24:28 rsynnott: i think ccl's mop is just slightly immature and buggy 22:24:45 adeht: clhs carefuly avoids to define s-expression... 22:24:58 sykopomp: you can fork and snapshot from there. i always meant to implement that as part of the regular snapshotting procedure, but never implemented it. 22:24:59 I'm using it because I haven't upgraded my laptop from PPC yet and I need threads. 22:25:52 H4nsX: won't that cause problems with slot-changes during snapshotting? 22:25:58 pjm: ccl is fine for most things. the unbound slot problem is the first real problem that i have with the mop, and the clos performance is not stellar 22:26:07 or will it ignore any changes after the snapshot call? 22:26:09 MHOOO [n=yeh@u-5-061.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:26:11 sykopomp: not if you do it right 22:26:24 adeht: Yes, and the person who posts this question should also include a comment that it's him who'd be willing to do the necessary changes. (wink) 22:26:34 heh, what would be doing it wrong? 22:26:48 sykopomp: so you need to coordinate the fork and snapshot obviously. before forking, you must switch to a new transaction log. 22:26:59 tcr: or maybe even already come up with a patch 22:27:04 H4nsX: I'll probably switch to SBCL when I move to the production machines, but it's working well for now. 22:27:21 sykopomp: and you'd want to have some mechanism in place that makes sure that you can restart if your snapshot process fails for some reason. 22:27:44 pjm: avoid unbound slots :) 22:27:52 heh, I'll read through docs and tutorial, I don't really understand what you're talking about, but it's probably because I'm dense and I've never dealt with forking 22:28:03 H4nsX: it keeps the whole dataset in memory, yep? 22:28:03 Now on Showtime -- CCL Unbound! 22:28:09 adeht, S11001001: The current version of the draft can be found typeset at http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/with-readtable-iterator.pdf 22:28:28 rsynnott: "it" as in "bknr datastore"? then yes. 22:28:32 yep 22:28:39 -!- jazen3 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:59 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-214-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 22:29:11 sykopomp: implementing fork on snapshot would not be hard, but possibly i'm the only person that thinks so :) 22:29:40 tcr: unnecessarily 22:30:41 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-89-250.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:31:17 S11001001: Why? 22:31:20 -!- Ijeroj [n=yeh@3-053.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:31:27 there's only one `c' 22:31:51 Pardon? I don't follow 22:31:54 pjm: plugging that into my tivo after californication 22:32:07 tcr: you write "unneccessarily" on the first page 22:32:08 tcr: typo in your pdf 22:32:30 also there's a blocky thing after the  on page 3 22:32:31 haha, ok. 22:33:35 I can't manage to get rid of that 22:34:48 Using texinfo to write such a document is kind of convenient, but sort of a kludge, I figure. 22:35:19 so you are using @result{} then... 22:35:20 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-75-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:38 hell 22:35:43 -!- dkcl [n=Dan6688@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:16 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:36:17 I'm using the @res{} thingie ripped from cffi's manual, actually. Don't know if it was in fact you who introduced it there :-) 22:36:28 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:48 but it's synonymous to @result{} for pdf creation 22:37:45 SYKOSOMATIC> (time (dotimes (i 1000000) (store-object-with-id 400000))) 22:37:45 0.251 seconds of real time 22:37:50 I think -that- is pretty cool 22:37:52 :) 22:37:58 tcr: I think :dispatch and :non-dispatch are better to use than the current ones. 22:37:59 no, I just wrote the tutorial, wrapper generators, and a couple of the chapter introductions 22:39:38 and it's strange that S11001001 said that he has no opinion of it. after all, it was his argument that the current names are a hack and that the linguistically natural partitioning is "dispatching" and "not dispatching". 22:40:09 I don't think he heard of your suggestion of using :dispatch :non-dispatch 22:41:30 adeht: that was for :macro-char vs :macro-chars, and indeed neither one strikes me as better than the other 22:41:44 S11001001: oh 22:41:50 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119114112.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 22:42:09 I briefly thought about using :simple-macro-char, and :dispatch-macro-char. I'm not content with the first one either. 22:42:48 some of my thoughts are driven by the CCL implementation 22:43:10 While some implementations store dispatchies apart from non-dispatchies, CCL doesn't 22:43:22 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:43:43 Yeah. That separation actually led me to implement the macro incorrectly on SBCL. 22:43:46 so there you have to iterate through just as many slots, you just move the test from the wri user into the generator function 22:44:54 S11001001: my grovel3 local functions in make-readtable-iterator is superfluous. 22:45:03 s/functions/function/ 22:45:27 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:45:30 tcr: anyway, tomorrow I will send my comments to the cdr mailing list. 22:45:54 dkcl [n=dan@28.66.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:46:32 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:53 hi guys, i wonder, is there a chance to get sbcl running on an arm cpu? the page says that it can be ported to RISC processors and ARM is kind of a RISC derivation? or am I completely of the track? 22:47:05 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 22:47:34 inetic: if you are prepared to spend some months on it, it would propably be possible. 22:47:41 tcr: Popping the stack for a moment, are you planning to add simple-warning-reporter.darcs.patch to editor-hints? 22:47:50 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-5-220.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:48:22 H4nsX: I'm spending time learning lisp right now so I don't think I would be very usefull at this point 22:48:26 inetic: I think clisp and ecl already work on ARM, if that would be useful 22:48:32 inetic: so no. 22:49:18 rsynnott: yes, I was going to bet on ecl as well 22:49:31 S11001001: I applied that patch, but haven't pushed since, because I got side-tracked while revamping cruft.lisp. 22:49:41 -!- zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@75.28.91.31] has left #lisp 22:50:03 I forgot to reply to your mail. 22:50:51 tcr: you are using the terms "undefined" and "unspecified" in your spec. are you concious of their differences? (actually, I didn't check the CLHS use of them; at the moment I borrow their meanings from the C++ standard terminology - "unspecified" requires the implementation to document the unspecifiendum (heh)) 22:51:25 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2206460f7ae41a85] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:51:47 adeht: I am. I would have liked to make the second "Consequences are ..." paragraph say "unspecified" rather than "undefined", but 3.6 says "undefined" for hash-tables, packages, etc. 22:52:20 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2FFB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:52:24 adeht: undefined means "potentially nasal demons", unspecified means "mostly harmless" 22:53:01 araujo_ [n=araujo@190.37.191.69] has joined #lisp 22:53:58 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:54:11 -!- araujo_ [n=araujo@190.37.191.69] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:24 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 22:54:28 yes.. maybe I confused the C++ terminology too - it's been a few years :).. "unspecified" means there are a finite number of possibilities from which to choose, and doesn't require the implementation to document (that would be "implementation-defined").. "undefined" keeps the possibilities endless. 22:55:43 H4nsX: but if it allready works on RISC doesn't it mean it will automatically work on ARM? sorry, my understanding of the RISC <-> ARM relationship isn't very clear 22:56:44 no inetic, RISC is an entire class of proccessors, ARM is a specific architecture 22:56:52 inetic: no, risc and arm are two very distinct srchitectures and arm consists of multiple families. you can only use compilers for exactly the specified target and host environment. everything else is porting work. 22:57:38 She pasted "ATP" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67943 22:58:03 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:58:06 ARM is a subset of RISC, as x86 is a subset of CISC 22:59:17 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:17 Jarvellis, H4nsX: thanks, I didn't know that 22:59:37 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 22:59:41 Jarvellis: now that is nonsense. arm is in the risc family of instruction sets, and x86 is in the cisc family. 23:00:17 yes, how does that conflict with my statement? 23:00:43 Jarvellis: family membership is not the same as being a subset 23:00:44 i think, inetic meant PA-RISC 23:01:13 stassats: arm is not a pa-risc subset either. 23:01:18 the set of all ARM chips is a subset of all RISC chips... 23:01:30 happy now? 23:01:31 H4nsX: and i didn't say that 23:02:08 Jarvellis: yeah, as much as all bmw cars are a subset of all four wheel vehicles. not a very useful classification, after all. 23:02:19 stassats: certainly not you :) 23:04:45 H4nsX, you realise that your comment about RISC and ARM being very different architectures is complete nonsense, right? 23:05:36 Jarvellis: no, i certainly do not. we are discussing this in the context of porting compilers, and in that context, they are two very different architectur 23:05:49 Jarvellis: note that risc also is a specific risc architecture. 23:06:21 Jarvellis: which sbcl runs on (used to run on). but all this are very confusing details and we should best leave it at "no, sbcl does not run on arm" 23:06:39 H4nsX, PA-RISC you mean? 23:06:39 hmm, i have router with mips inside, though it has too little memory for sbcl.. 23:07:08 Jarvellis: oh, yes, i mean pa-risc. you see, i am confused, too. but my last statement is true anyway. 23:07:17 for that matter, ARM is more MIPS than RISC-1 heritages 23:07:27 though both are generally referred to as RISC these days 23:07:27 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:07:41 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:07:47 and x86s are generally secretly rather risc-like these days, to add to the confision 23:08:01 H4nsX, i was attempting to say why it didn't follow that running on one RISC chip didn't follow from running on another 23:08:21 wow, it is quite confusing, I would leave it as well on what H4nsX suggested, I'll do some googlin for now 23:09:30 but many thanks for your responses 23:09:32 sorry if i confused you inetic 23:09:44 Jarvellis: you're trying to confuse me more, don't you? do you mean to say "it runs on one risc, so it runs on another" implying that "it runs on mips (which is a risc) so it runs on arm (which is a risc)"? 23:10:07 lol 23:10:14 (do ho ho) 23:10:16 inetic, try looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risc it gives a reasonable overview i think 23:11:00 H4nsX, i was saying more or less the oposite of that, and no i wasn't trying to confuse you 23:11:03 Jarvellis, thank you 23:11:22 oh and it might be worth searching for cisc also 23:11:26 Jarvellis: ah, ok. we're level. glad to have this cleared :) 23:11:44 -!- metawilm [n=willem@78.52.98.112] has quit [] 23:11:44 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:12:13 H4nsX, somehow we seem to have managed to confuse each other, but i wouldn't worry too much about that :-) 23:12:13 and RISC-1 and MIPS, if you want the historical perspective 23:12:29 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-161-172.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:12:43 you can spend half your life reading interesting proccessor history 23:13:11 yeah. i'll propably be searching for the iapx432 manuals for the rest of my life 23:13:46 I first thought that comment was being ironic, but I'm not sure anymore 23:14:14 sounds genuine to me 23:14:20 sympathy is yours 23:14:23 the legendary mother of all cisc processors! object oriented to the gate! a multi-million dollar failure! 23:14:27 Jarvellis: and it's not the worst way to spend your life :) 23:14:47 H4nsX: as were most (all?) of Intel's innovative non-x86 designs 23:15:06 rsynnott: you can't reasonably call x86 to be a "failure" 23:15:09 rsynnott, i wasn't meaning to imply it was a bad way to spend time 23:15:33 H4nsX: that's what I'm saying; x86 was a success, but all attempts to depart in interesting ways were failures 23:15:34 rsynnott: the iapx432 was the abandoned because the x86 design was ready and the market took it. 23:15:49 (the i900 thing, Itanium, iapx432) 23:15:52 worse is better... 23:18:25 maybe a bit off topic, but would it make more sence to do a port to the LLVM bytecode? 23:18:43 though I'd be a little surprised if x86 survives the increasing use of JIT 23:19:01 inetic: it would be interesting, at least 23:19:05 *rvirding* says goodnight everyone 23:19:16 rsynnott: x86 is more or less a virtual machine nowadays. 23:19:20 at that point, the complex hardware layer which turns x86 into what the processor can actually execute becomes an expensive liability 23:19:26 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:19:35 H4nsX: yep, but one implemented in an expensive fasion 23:20:15 it'd make far more sense just to strip that layer away and allow the compilers to target the underlying arch, once most thing are JIT-ed 23:20:29 *stassats* is awaiting for quantum computers 23:20:30 rsynnott: other virtual machines are much nicer, but x86 has a huge software legacy. future processors will propably be able to switch between, say, executing x86 and jvm on the fly, between processor partitions. 23:20:42 (maybe they already do and i lost track) 23:20:49 -!- prxq [n=mommer@Xa613.x.pppool.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:21:21 Sun has made a couple of attempts to build java-machines 23:21:32 azulsystems has them 23:21:53 yep 23:22:04 afaik, some arms are able to execute java bytecode 23:22:06 and there's even a simple open-source implementation 23:22:13 lisp machines should come back 23:22:32 or is that too obvious? 23:22:48 just spend a few years with scary Xilinx tools and you could make one! 23:22:51 Jarvellis: the thought is not completely original :) 23:23:43 i just need to choose a lisp, and an architecture, and spend 30 years getting the skills... 23:23:46 somehow, the line of argument of rhickey is not too bad: the jvm is a fine virtual machine in many respects, so it makes a proper lisp machine already 23:23:47 Jarvellis: lisp performance isn't problem nowadays, but there is no usable LispOS currently 23:24:16 multiple dispatch is still a bit of a problem on it, I think 23:24:53 it's OSS now though isn't it? could be improved whilst still supporting java bytecode 23:25:37 rsynnott: there are tradeoffs, but there are always tradeoffs. 23:25:49 how about llvm? 23:26:03 stassats: I saw some lisp os on sourceforge, but not sure if it wasnt ment as a joke more less 23:26:11 rsynnott: and an azul box running lisp on 600 cores is something that resembles much of the lisp machine cult :) 23:26:15 the JVM has the advantage that almost everyone already has it 23:26:18 inetic: movitz? 23:26:47 H4nsX: can that be done? 23:26:51 ABCL, I suppose 23:27:09 rsynnott: that is rhickey's story, with clojure for a lisp 23:27:21 H4nsX: sounds like Connection Machine 23:27:23 oh, yep, clojure's quite nice 23:27:25 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:28 (though certainly not a CL) 23:27:37 so how much of clojure applies to lisp? 23:27:44 in many ways it feels more erlang-y than lisp-y 23:28:00 stassats: the cm was data parallel, so it was more akin to a modern graphics card than to a general purpose computer 23:28:19 stassats: http://sourceforge.net/projects/losak/ 23:28:25 one thing i wonder is if it will at some point become usefull to translate a .lisp to .clojure then compile it to jvm? 23:28:33 dmiles_afk: a lot - it is also very different. 23:28:43 dmiles_afk: not viable. 23:29:18 H4nsX: he company i work with compiles .lisp to .java .. but it puts in some crazy atrifacts 23:29:21 rsynnott: i planned to implement a component that i need in erlang, but i'm glad that i can do it in clojure instead :) 23:29:35 inetic: there is also movitz, which works 23:29:42 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 23:29:57 dmiles_afk: if you want cl, using a cl compiler that compiles to jvm bytecode makes more sense than compiling to clojure. 23:30:05 H4nsX: i dont have access to tr5anslator code yet, but it originated for tha .lisp to .c 23:30:13 stassats: works, but has no infrastructure to speak of. 23:30:23 yet 23:30:34 H4nsX: i guess thats what ABCL does what it does 23:30:45 what/why 23:30:49 H4nsX: it's more limited than erlang in some ways; though; it doesn't have the simple IPC as yet 23:30:54 stassats: how do you think is that going to change? 23:31:20 H4nsX: i hope 23:31:26 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 23:31:43 rsynnott: i can't say that i have understood everything in clojure yet, but i think that agents can make up for most of the message passing use cases 23:31:47 is one of the things that clojure has on its side the avoidiance of boxing? 23:32:15 rsynnott: and if one really needs message passing, implementing it on top of clojure primitive does not look like being something very complicated. 23:32:58 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:33:01 sorry, explained myself badly 23:33:10 specifically transparent interMACHINE IPC 23:33:52 rsynnott: erlang's inter-machine ipc is not transparent, and as far as i understand, the runtime does not provide primitives for robust distribution. 23:34:17 what are primitives? 23:34:36 rsynnott: so, from my perspective, erlang's inter-machine ipc is a primitive system that one can use to implement robust distributed systems, but that can also be done in c or java or lisp. 23:34:39 like compiled functions? 23:34:50 dmiles_afk: low-level operations that are defined as part of the language 23:34:56 *sykopomp* keeps murdering his heap 23:35:09 H4nsX: ah 23:35:32 for robust distribution of code? 23:35:39 no, not particularly 23:36:10 the IPC is close to transparent ,though, once the link is set up 23:36:33 there is a class load transformer that i have been looking at that i am hoping to contribute to ABCL soon that looks for binary mathmatic operations on fixnums and removes the unboxing/reboxing 23:37:20 but hoping it will eventualy do alot more 23:37:46 rsynnott: robust inter-machine communication between tightly coupled agents. as long as all your machines are always up, it is trivial. supporting fault tolerance is a different thing, thoiugh. 23:38:22 oudeis [n=oudeis@192.117.29.140.static.012.net.il] has joined #lisp 23:39:46 -!- Jabberwo_ [n=jens@dslb-082-083-125-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 23:39:49 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:39:51 rsynnott: so erlang gives you the primitives to set up such a system, but the mechanisms to achive fault tolerance you need to implement yourself. this is why i am not that impressed by the "distributed" part in the erlang marketing pep talk. 23:40:15 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:25 H4nsX: so uhhh... if I'm trying to load a pretty gigantic database, and it hangs at loading transaction log, with no hdd or cpu activity. What would you say? 23:40:53 H4nsX: ah, I see your point, yes 23:41:03 sykopomp: i would not say anything but press ctrl-c and look at the stack 23:41:17 doesn't respond :P 23:41:32 sykopomp: is it a remote machine? 23:41:36 nope, this is local 23:41:45 sykopomp: slime wants C-c C-c i think 23:41:46 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:41:54 yup, C-c C-c is what I did 23:42:27 sykopomp: your lisp died upon you. i blame sbcl :D 23:42:31 using a nice 508M of RES, after blowing the stack earlier 23:42:46 (I could also just be trying to push this way beyond what it can handle) 23:43:03 maybe I just need to bump my stack limit a bit. How would I do that? 23:43:08 sykopomp: 500m should be fine 23:43:27 hm 23:49:22 stassats` [n=stassats@78.37.165.174] has joined #lisp 23:49:22 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:49:33 -!- stassats` is now known as stassats 23:49:35 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:49:41 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:50:53 kpreid___ [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:24 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:14 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]