00:00:09 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 00:03:08 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 00:06:07 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:27 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:18 disumu [n=disumu@p57A25C2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:59 derekv [n=dlverlee@java.csl.mtu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:10:51 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 00:11:08 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:35 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 00:14:02 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-3-93-192.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:14:21 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:41 -!- blakkino [n=BLaCk@host-84-221-80-80.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:15:10 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 00:15:21 blakkino [n=BLaCk@host-84-221-208-130.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:15:30 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:49 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:16:49 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:02 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-99.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:17:22 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:29 -!- bryteise [n=bryteise@c-76-115-234-122.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:18:21 bryteise [n=bryteise@c-76-115-234-122.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:47 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 00:19:36 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:19:37 -!- jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:19:48 -!- Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit ["leaving"] 00:19:49 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 00:19:59 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:20:05 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 00:20:47 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178061013.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:22:11 -!- ths [n=ths@port-212-202-236-178.static.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:23:34 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 00:23:52 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:35 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 00:26:01 quek [n=read_eva@210.253.202.182] has joined #lisp 00:26:04 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-99.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:42 -!- quek [n=read_eva@210.253.202.182] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:29:32 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:33:02 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:26 bordeaux-threads? *sigh*, just when I committed to acl-compat 00:33:40 with new information comes new decisions 00:34:57 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:11 someone earlier said hunchentoot has its own portable threading library 00:36:27 sort of. 00:36:47 -!- blakkino [n=BLaCk@host-84-221-208-130.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:53 blakkino [n=BLaCk@82.84.113.147] has joined #lisp 00:37:51 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:07 fusss: we abandoned it, sort of 00:38:30 fusss: and now use bordeaux-thread. although the decision may be revised. 00:39:59 i would say stick to sbcly stuff, they usually tend to work better (oops! ;-) 00:40:12 edi is a lispworkser 00:40:14 so yeah, bordeaux is good 00:40:21 bordeaux is pretty fantastic 00:40:23 (a lispsworker?) 00:40:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:40:32 -!- cmsimon [n=Casey_Da@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:40:37 workster 00:40:43 artisan, I would say 00:41:23 *** - EVAL: undefined function A 00:41:36 yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has joined #lisp 00:41:44 lemme guess, you're using LML derekv ;-) 00:42:03 that was clisp, sbcl does not seemto be installed on this computer 00:42:24 quabbin [i=cae92661@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-adfb0abf40d6ef6d] has joined #lisp 00:42:37 and function A does not seem to be defined 00:42:39 I get that error tons, now that I'm in the middle of transitioning from LML to CL-WHO 00:42:44 -!- quabbin [i=cae92661@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-adfb0abf40d6ef6d] has left #lisp 00:42:52 fusss: cl-who has different syntax. 00:43:02 (eval ' (a lispsworker?)) 00:43:10 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-48-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:43:45 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@h-188-232.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:46 I know, I went from LML2 -> LML -> back to LML2 as HTMLGEN and finally CL-WHO. I never restart my hunchentoot and different pages are served with different html macros 00:44:26 derekv: that was confusing 00:44:36 it was a lisp joke 00:44:43 but it didn't work 00:44:55 and it wasn't that funny 00:44:58 and i had to explain it 00:45:03 so it is a very bad joke 00:45:05 and you still are. Hm. 00:45:11 but at least it wasn't long. 00:45:21 oh, i can write an essay if you want. 00:45:21 the explanation was. 00:45:54 even long jokes can be made efficient with repetition, thanks to memoization 00:47:35 oh, i remember what i can here to ask 8 hours ago 00:48:03 "yes" or "yes, but" 00:48:32 I have a function MAKE-MATRIX which is argument compatible with MAKE-ARRAY, but I want to keep the required interface short and sweet; i.e. everything should be optional except for dimensions 00:49:08 (make-matrix rows cols &optional &key element-type initial-element initial-contents ...) 00:49:29 how can I use &allow-other-keys so I don't have to replicate the bloody interface? 00:49:50 _8david: does CXML export an interface for turning a string containing XML escaped text into a native Lisp string? 00:50:04 solus [n=solus@cpe-66-69-208-12.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:08 (defun make-matrix (rows cols &allow-other-keys) (make-array `(,rows ,cols) )) 00:50:12 I can has that? 00:50:17 how can I check to see if a letter is greater than another letter 00:50:22 like (> b a) 00:50:31 fusss: (defun make-matrix (&rest args &key &allow-other-keys) (apply 'make-array args)) or similar 00:50:37 solus: char< is one way 00:50:54 characters have no order, you use char-code maybe? 00:51:08 fusss: incorrect 00:51:22 oh 00:51:49 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:50 (char< #\a #\A) is guaranteed to be t? 00:52:16 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/13_af.htm 00:52:25 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Gone"] 00:53:15 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 00:54:48 anybody else using gordon here? 00:54:57 *fusss* way to change the subject ;-) 00:55:30 I think I figured it out .. sorta, but I'm getting bit by the :depth argument to make-tag-place-object2 00:55:37 ok, say I have a lst '(a b c) 00:55:41 fusss: (defun make-matrix (rows cols &rest rest) (apply #'make-array (list rows cols) rest)) 00:55:45 (first lst) isn't a character 00:55:58 solus: it's a symbol. 00:55:58 how can I compare it to (second lst) 00:56:04 can you compare symbols? 00:56:10 solus: you can compare their names. 00:56:15 how? 00:56:18 solus: they are acceptable arguments to STRING< 00:56:28 eq, eql, equal, equalp, ... 00:57:02 fusss: i haven't used gordon, but i suspect using it might require a pretty good knowledge of the low-level flash file format. 00:57:03 fusss: that's not comparison, that's test for equality 00:57:48 Xach: I didn't download the spec until this morning, and all week I was generating boxes, labels, and flash text editors on the fly 00:58:01 I ripped torta to pieces, actually 00:58:09 ok 00:58:55 *Xach* also wrote a cl flash generator, but it wasn't as complete as gordon 00:59:24 basically you run everything as (with-movie (..) (add-tag foo) ..) where tag is LABEL TEXT-ENTRY SHAPE BUTTON or whatever. and when you're done defining you start placing the objects on the screen by their IDs 00:59:37 it's like you're doing your own widget packing 01:00:18 Oh shiiiiite! 01:00:27 VP debate is about to start 01:00:48 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:49 this USian would like to sign off for the night gentlehackerfolk! 01:00:53 *Xach* made http://xach.com/img/flash/square.html with it 01:00:56 -!- fusss [n=irc@pool-72-66-35-198.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 01:04:18 *stassats* wrote the above (defun make-matrix... and still can't understand why it works 01:05:28 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-69-209-123-41.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:45 stassats: why wouldn't it? 01:07:00 stassats: don't you love spreadable argument list designators? 01:07:09 Xach: yeah, just read about it 01:10:08 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAC225.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:11:19 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-21ca38cc276a7826] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:12:25 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit ["Untill I come back."] 01:14:48 -!- yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:16:33 -!- blakkino [n=BLaCk@82.84.113.147] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:05 blakkino [n=BLaCk@host-84-221-208-21.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 01:18:56 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:26:11 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:28:04 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:34:06 yhara [n=yhara@raichu.3in.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:36:18 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:34 -!- yhara [n=yhara@raichu.3in.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 01:37:06 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:32 envi_office2 [i=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 01:37:47 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-85-73.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:07 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:41:51 MHOOO [n=yeh@6-022.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:42:31 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:42:55 Is it possible to use a macro expansion inside the variable declaration of a let expression? e.g. (let (mymacro-generating-variables someinput) t) 01:42:57 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:23 MHOOO: no 01:44:28 bigtalk [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:44:32 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:39 what do you think about Paul graham? 01:45:15 stassats: Hmm. So can I, depending on someinput, generate variables which can then be used? 01:45:24 So how* can I 01:45:26 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:45:57 MHOOO: generate entire let-form 01:46:00 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-99.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:46:27 Cool, that sounds like a plan. 01:46:30 Thanks. 01:47:50 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 01:49:23 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:49:29 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:49:53 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:59 -!- jazen [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:53:05 jazen2 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 01:53:12 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:53:40 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:52 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-99.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:15 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["*poof*"] 01:59:44 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:20 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 02:01:37 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has joined #lisp 02:01:43 -!- H4ns [n=hans@72-255-21-189.client.stsn.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:02:46 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:02:52 -!- bigtalk [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:03:35 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:43 Is there any way to create a local variable without using a macro? 02:04:07 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:04:27 do you want it at runtime? 02:04:46 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:51 yes 02:05:13 you can eval stuff, but its often abused 02:05:55 are you interpreting a stream of s-exps or something? 02:06:32 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:35 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.128.21] has joined #lisp 02:06:37 I'm not sure what a stream in lisp slang is, but I don't think so. 02:06:52 lets say a string 02:07:00 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:13 MHOOO: what do you want expect to use this local vaiable? 02:07:22 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@24.21.161.25] has joined #lisp 02:07:22 why do you want to create a local variable at runtime, as opposed to just compiling a let form with the rest of your code 02:08:17 I would like to invoke a method with a parameter. And I want to map the elements of the parameter (which is a list) to specific variables. 02:08:27 Since its a runtime variable, I can't seem to use macros. 02:09:23 runtime variable... you mean you don't know the name of it until the program is running? 02:09:35 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@24.21.161.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:09:39 No, I know the name during compile time. 02:09:51 MHOOO: destructuring-bind 02:09:54 I don't see the problem then 02:10:00 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:10:11 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:14 But I want to map the *contents* of the parameter to a variable name. 02:10:23 jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:10:39 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:10:45 MHOOO: what would refer to this variable? 02:11:08 ok so a function returns the name of a variable, and you then want to work with this variable 02:11:17 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:03 you could try find-symbol 02:12:09 Lemme do an example 02:14:08 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:15:25 MHOOO pasted "macro magic" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67829 02:15:38 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:16:32 MHOOO: so are you asking how to implement with-message-variables? 02:17:08 At run-time I get a message - and depending on the format specified at compile-time, I want to map the variables (specified inside the format) to the elements of the message list. 02:17:36 Yes - though as I understood it, that isn't possible since macros can't (for obvious reasons) handle variables. 02:17:44 MHOOO: er, no, that's perfectly possible 02:18:03 MHOOO: take a look at destructuring-bind or with-slots -- those are macros which do that sort of thing. 02:18:20 MHOOO: depending on what exactly a message is, one of those might already do the job 02:18:32 -!- tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:18:38 Cool, I'll take a look at those. Thanks. 02:19:27 MHOOO: the thing is, this is NOT "creating a variable at run time" 02:19:37 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:19:44 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:07 Well, I gave up the idea of using macros, which is why I figured its about run-time creation of variables. 02:20:11 MHOOO: since the symbols ?name and ?amount are in the source, they are available at macroexpansion time and so the macro can generate code to bind them 02:20:32 I suggest you pretend the concept "run-time creation of variables" doesn't exist 02:20:34 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 02:20:48 (note, not that you can't do it, but that that phrase doesn't mean anything) 02:21:39 *MHOOO* will do that 02:23:44 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:20 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:27:04 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:27:27 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 02:31:36 i just installed a fresh clbuild and had it get slime and sbcl, and built that minimal amount; but when I attempt to slime-connect to the ./clbuild preloaded the connection dies after it dispatch's it first event "The value NIL is not of type SWANK::CONNECTION." ... suggestions on what I should try next? 02:33:07 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.128.21] has left #lisp 02:35:36 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:49 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 02:36:03 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:16 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 02:42:25 Yuck. Spammers have found the oct mailing lists. 02:43:34 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A25C2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:46:54 Why does tagbody hurt me by not answering the value of its last non-tag form? 02:50:39 -!- blakkino [n=BLaCk@host-84-221-208-21.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:51:05 blakkino [n=BLaCk@78.13.139.154] has joined #lisp 02:53:00 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:54:28 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:56:40 sunwukong [n=vukung@210-20-92-190.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:57:17 blakkino2 [n=BLaCk@78.13.143.47] has joined #lisp 03:00:19 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092414]"] 03:02:05 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 03:02:23 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 03:03:59 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:05:42 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:06:32 is there a generalized use of @ as a function name? 03:07:17 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:04 blakkino3 [n=BLaCk@78.13.140.62] has joined #lisp 03:09:11 no 03:09:16 what would you make it? 03:09:44 -!- agilaz [n=agilaz@82.170.104.91] has left #lisp 03:10:39 Renatobico [i=t7DS@nbru03-1064.dial.bru.embratel.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:12:09 S11001001: (defmacro @ (object slot) `(slot-value ,object ,slot)) 03:12:19 just some sugar. 03:12:21 -!- blakkino [n=BLaCk@78.13.139.154] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:12:34 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:17 going through the clos book, lots of s-v going on. 03:13:31 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-202-26-26.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:14:35 you want to make APL from lisp? 03:14:41 @ is how instance variables are referenced in the language i'm most comfortable with, so @ seems an appropriate macro addition. 03:14:51 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF7D73.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:14:53 stassats: no, but a little sugar doesn't hurt. 03:15:09 i see a lot of '(something) and very little (quote something) 03:15:21 sure, as long as you don't show it to sombody else 03:16:03 that's you want a function to be descriptive doesn't mean it has to be a long-chain-of-english-words 03:16:12 er -'s 03:16:44 and slot-value is usually don't called directly, there are accessors for that 03:17:23 blakkino [n=BLaCk@78.13.142.130] has joined #lisp 03:17:37 bougyman: i prefer long-chain-of-english-words if it actually describes the purpose of the function 03:18:29 if you are tired to type, tell your editor to type it 03:18:37 stassats: i know, that was stated in the pcl (re use accessors instead of slot-value) 03:18:48 stassats: as I said, i type s-v 03:18:54 but @ is much shorter. 03:19:50 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has left #lisp 03:20:10 1/4 as much effort as even the shortest unique identifier. and s-v isn't always guaranteed to be the shortest unique identifier. 03:21:00 bougyman: 4x effort for others to read your code 03:21:14 not if it's well documented or convention. 03:21:23 i bet someone said that about '( vs (quote at some point. 03:21:52 that's a part of a language 03:22:05 anyway, these aren't conventions i'm looking to impose on anyone else, just shortcuts for my own use, wanted to make sure i wasn't conflicting with an accepted use for it. 03:22:11 every lisper knows what slot-value is, and what ' is 03:22:41 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 03:22:43 if you won't accept using accesors, at least use with-slots 03:23:11 hefner: i'm not against using accessors, i'm just at a part in keene's with a lot of slot-value. 03:23:51 preparing the next edition of the book? 03:24:03 me? 03:24:06 no, i'm just learning 03:24:10 i'm 20 days in now. 03:24:18 you won't be writing it to use @ then, I suppose. 03:25:10 bougyman: you just didn't read over-macrosed code, with "where the hell this function was defined and what does it do" 03:26:08 stassats: i've been through a lot of obfuscated LOC through the years, i understand that argument. 03:28:26 -!- blakkino2 [n=BLaCk@78.13.143.47] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:28:29 bougyman: abbrev-mode 03:28:57 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:03 I nearly went crazy typing out array_key_exists in PHP code, even with the power of M-/, before I abbreved it to ake 03:31:03 at least in lisp one can (desc @) and easily avoid any mystery. 03:31:23 -!- blakkino3 [n=BLaCk@78.13.140.62] has quit [No route to host] 03:31:26 describe, even. 03:31:39 sometimes i'm too used to tabcomplete 03:32:02 abbrev works for all languages, and can be customized for your own frequently-typed names without interfering with readability 03:32:06 bougyman: that is common for starters to redefine CL in a way they think it should be 03:32:35 a few never give up on that 03:33:42 S11001001: i'm assuming you're talking about some emacs thing, and my editor already has that. 03:34:09 (it still doesn't make s-v shorter than @) 03:34:28 Herb__ [i=t7DS@nbru03-1070.dial.bru.embratel.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:36:40 -!- MHOOO [n=yeh@6-022.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:37:05 bougyman: it makes s shorter than @ though 03:37:14 perhaps if you spend so much time accessing slots, you are doing something wrong 03:37:26 sure, S11001001. 03:37:26 I can't recall ever naming a variable `s' in CL 03:37:32 so you could abbrev it to slot-value 03:37:35 hefner: i'm reading the book on CLOS and typing the code in a repl. 03:37:42 if you really want to pick on long, irritating names, turn your guns on multiple-value-bind 03:37:44 then you'd get an even better char than @ for typing, and code clarity for reading 03:38:05 bougyman: well, if you're playing at the repl, by all means do whatever you want 03:38:16 i like update-instance-for-different-class 03:38:27 who calls that 03:38:29 good morning 03:38:36 i do not like the side effects of accessors in clos. 03:38:53 eh? 03:39:03 if you (defun some-method-name) it gladly overwrited the generic function and the methods. 03:39:12 overwrites, that is. 03:39:21 the namespace is not necessarily bound to the object. 03:40:20 that makes no sense, but I see what you're getting at 03:40:25 i'm just starting to understand the task based vs message passing. 03:40:30 don't try to apply your previous practices to lisp, it will not help 03:40:59 accessors live in the same namespace as regular functions, and you plan accordingly 03:41:15 but I don't like that (defclass foo () ((name :accessor name))) replaces (defun name), though, and vice-versa. 03:41:18 (other functions, I should say, since they aren't particularly special) 03:41:45 bougyman: I suspect you'd get a warning if you did that in real code (as opposed to screwing at the repl) 03:41:54 you do get a warning in the repl as well. 03:42:08 bougyman: so give it another name 03:42:33 stassats: well of course. 03:42:45 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 03:42:46 Of course, you don't have to specify the :accessor slot option. 03:42:48 that an object is not also a namespace is the hurdle, i'm working on getting over it. 03:43:49 packages help here, obviously, for not polluting a global namespace, and keeping ones function names from colliding in a package should not be too difficult. 03:44:05 everyone is down on global namespaces 03:44:11 felideon [n=user@74.186.235.232] has joined #lisp 03:44:16 but when :using other packages i can see where collisions can happen. 03:44:52 ..but you can pack a lot of code in a flat namespace without much trouble 03:45:12 bougyman: that's why it is a bad idea to :use packages other than very stable ones, such as :common-lisp and :clim. 03:45:25 it would be sweet to see the community adopt a convention for constructors. 03:45:42 I think it adopted make-instance 03:45:52 or make- 03:45:59 bougyman: I suggest you worry about that a couple of decades from now when you have problems with make-instance. 03:46:35 beach: understood, but that seems on the surface to discourage transparent re-use. 03:47:07 or not, thus far I'm generally fully qualifying my interaction with other packages. 03:47:12 MHOOO [n=yeh@6-010.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 03:47:17 it seemed safest. 03:47:58 beach: again, this is from the clos book, talking about how it's standard to make a constructor, to type check the parameters and such. 03:47:59 -!- blakkino [n=BLaCk@78.13.142.130] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 03:48:31 kpreid: destructuring-bind doesn't seem to be working with variables either. So how can I map the contents of a list, which is only accessible through a variable, to parameters? 03:49:13 hefner: i haven't seen that make- in the packages i've used thus far. 03:49:19 MHOOO: (apply list) 03:49:39 hefner: that would be an appropriate convention, sure. 03:49:58 beach: ? 03:50:23 the full beauty of the common lisp situation is seldom appreciated and often misunderstood 03:51:34 beach: I want to map user-defined variables (specified at compile time in the code) to the contents of a variable which is a list and only determined at run-time. 03:51:46 MHOOO: I guess I misunderstood what you wanted to to. But that is how you take a list of stuff and map it to individial parameters (or a function). 03:52:06 MHOOO: those are not called parameters. 03:52:34 which is to say that given the power to change everything versus the reality that no one is listening and the language is static, the journeyman lisper learns to dismiss a whole class of subjective, superficial "great ideas" and get back to work 03:53:06 (standard disclaimer, ymmv) 03:53:49 beach: Sorry, misused that there. It should have been "variables". 03:55:08 MHOOO: I think you would have to do the destructuring-bind and then assign the variables. 03:55:51 But how can I call destructuring bind, when the contents of the list are only acessible through a local variable? 03:56:27 I get "The object to be destructured should be a list with 2 elements, not MESSAGE.", "MESSAGE" being a variable, whenever I try that. 03:56:54 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 03:57:45 MHOOO: you must be quoting it or something. (destructuring-bind (var1 var2) message ) 03:57:58 (let ((list (list 1 2))) (destructuring-bind (a b) list (+ a b))) => 3 03:58:33 MHOOO: also, I think that var1 and var2 can be special variables, so you can indeed use variables introduces by defparameter, defvar, etc. 03:59:16 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:55 -!- Renatobico [i=t7DS@nbru03-1064.dial.bru.embratel.net.br] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:59:57 Hmm. I'm passing the list as "message-vals" to a macro. And the macro then returns with `(destructuring-bind ,vars '(,@message-vals) ,body)) 04:00:07 MHOOO: (defparameter *a* nil) (destructuring-bind (*a*) '(123) *a*) => 123 04:00:10 hefner: funny, just the opposite attitude is what made the language i've most recently come from so popular. convention over configuration and the steady progression from DRY to DRA 04:00:30 MHOOO: there is a quote too many 04:00:38 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 04:01:02 Oh My God. 04:01:07 It works. 04:01:26 Too bad that only took 9 hours. 04:01:34 Thanks :) 04:01:57 wait... 04:02:11 message-vals contains things know at compile time? 04:02:27 No 04:02:46 message-vals is generated during run-time. 04:03:10 but you are accessing the contents of that variable at macro-expansion time. 04:03:23 so what does it contain at that time? 04:04:04 Eeats me. 04:04:12 is it a parameter to your macro? 04:04:14 Err, *beats. 04:04:18 Yes. 04:04:25 bougyman: I can google DRY, but what's DRA ? 04:04:33 hefner: don't repeat anyone 04:04:40 So what does a typical call to the macro look like, i.e. what do you pass as an argument to that parameter? 04:05:39 MHOOO: I guess it doesn't matter since it works, right? 04:05:50 something like (value1 value2), with value1 value2 being arbitrary values 04:06:27 I hope it does, only tested it in the REPL. 04:06:28 MHOOO: so it *is* known at macro-expansion time? 04:06:59 hefner: i feel some of that in the cl community, but it's more of a "here's some behavior(s) to use"', not "here's some behavior(s) to inherit and extend" 04:07:05 Ah, it probably is, since it all starts in a defmethod? 04:07:37 Well, if it *is* known at macro-expansion time, then the quote is appropriate. 04:08:16 Interesting, how come? 04:08:18 Otherwise, if you only pass it a variable, then you should have ,message-vals instead of '(,message-vals) or something like that. 04:08:32 I'll keep that in mind. 04:09:58 It all depends on whether you want the argument to destructuring-bind to always be a constant (which it can only be if message-vals is know at macro-expansion time, or if you pass any old form as argument for message-vals, in which case, you just stick that form in there. 04:11:31 bougyman: I don't think abstract discussions about a hypothetical CL community are meaningful 04:12:00 hypothetical community? 04:12:23 beach: Heh, I could have needed that information yesterday :) 04:12:35 beach: Thanks alot. Works like a charm now. 04:12:42 MHOOO: anytime 04:17:02 -!- Herb__ [i=t7DS@nbru03-1070.dial.bru.embratel.net.br] has quit ["The 7 Deadly Sins: Tem 1001 utilidades.   [www.t7ds.com.br]"] 04:17:42 bougyman: many people here feel that "community" is too strong a word for the set of Lisp programmers in the world, given that people in that set have very little in common. 04:18:27 ah, by community i meant those that contribute to what exist as the common library collections available publicly. 04:18:46 and, frankly, this place. 04:19:20 as libraries are often suggested in here when functionality that one provides is known. 04:19:24 I think the CL "community" is one of the most awesome things I've ever run into, and I can't possibly imagine finding the kind of genuine help and interesting discussion and competent insight I've found here anywhere else. 04:19:45 sykopomp: that's very kind of you to say so. 04:20:06 So imo, anyone that pops around in a forum or rants in their blog about the 'intimidating', 'elitist', or 'non-existent' lisp community is full of hot air and needs a reality check. 04:20:20 yeah 04:20:21 i agree wholeheartedly, sykopomp. 04:20:31 even in the #emacs channels you have jerks 04:20:34 I have no idea what I'm doing most of the time. I've been 'programming' for all of a year, in my entire life. I come from an arts background and I spent a nice 4 years without touching science or math. 04:20:36 channel* 04:20:44 those same people are regularly intimidated by parenthesis, as well. 04:20:53 heh 04:20:57 alright. nite guys 04:21:01 and I wouldn't have been able to get anywhere near as far as I have if it weren't for all the people in this channel, and the people I know in real life, and some other lispers I've met. 04:21:07 -!- felideon [n=user@74.186.235.232] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:21:12 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:21:13 tl;dr: lisp community iz awsum, stfu 04:21:14 >_> 04:21:59 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:22:39 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:22:57 I think #lisp participants can be pretty harsh with people who don't take advice, who refuse to use conventional terminology, who come here with prejudiced opinions, etc. (and I think that's a good thing). But other should be fine. 04:23:13 yeah, I think that's mainly it 04:23:17 *hefner* on the otherhand is just a grumpy ass 04:23:40 #lisp expects its members to be willing and able to check out documentation, to be willing and able to learn by themselves. There's no spoonfeeding here, and that's for the better. 04:23:53 *sykopomp* thinks hefner is a fluffy teddy bear in disguise 04:24:28 more of a masochist, if my ongoing attempts to use factor are any indication 04:24:34 also, #lisp tends to keep it quite a bit more on the civil and mature side than a lot of other IRC channels, which I really appreciate it (even though it's fun to be a jackass every now and then, but that's for other channels) 04:29:27 beach: i'd have to disagree that the set of lisp programmers has very little in common. 04:29:49 nowhereman [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:24 Well, depends on what you're looking at. A lot of it looks pretty homogenous coming from a Massachusetts resident like myself :P 04:30:39 (usually the sketchy, half-crazy hacker types is what I run into) 04:32:30 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-99.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:32:54 sykopomp: I think you're generally wrong. While #lisp is mostly fine, there are other parts of the Lisp community that are throughly elitist. 04:33:13 c.l.l needs to be nuked from orbit. 04:33:32 at least in the sense that new people are pointed away from there 04:33:56 what is c.l.l? 04:34:05 comp.lang.lisp 04:34:14 there's a quote I'm fond of, which ends ".. Common Lisp has no philosophy. We are held together only by a shared disgust for all the alternatives." 04:34:14 oh. 04:34:18 i've liked that. 04:34:31 ..which is probably as true in 2008 as whenever it was first said. 04:34:32 Adamant: ah, well, when you talk about Usenet, you're talking about a different world altogether. 04:34:34 c.l.l, that is. 04:34:57 i've been used to usenet since before www., though. 04:35:09 I used to use Usenet as well 04:35:24 it's nice to find adults in a forum, for once. people who remember to the time before the www. 04:35:26 since 2000 it's become increasingly less useful 04:35:34 before the rodent infestation. 04:35:35 I can't use usenet anymore, comcast cut off access to it :< 04:35:45 and I never really got into it in the first place. Heh. 04:35:59 sykopomp: you can get a Usenet provider 04:36:12 or use Google Groups 04:36:16 true 04:36:26 does google groups allow posting, though? 04:36:37 really though it's not worth unless you're leeching warez. 04:36:43 *worth it 04:36:55 sykopomp: it does, or did a few years ago. 04:36:56 yeah, probably not. I'm pretty happy with IRC+http 04:37:34 it does nowadays too, at least few weeks ago 04:37:57 I lost interest in c.l.l not long after Naggum left. Also, the idiotic trolling got really bad. 04:39:29 i read some inflammatory stuff about Arc and p-graham that showed up on a link. 04:39:31 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:30 hefner: I am still skimming it, but between Xah, Gavino, Harrop, and Kenny, it is getting pretty bad. 04:44:58 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@151.204.138.99] has joined #lisp 04:46:53 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 04:48:33 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 04:49:04 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:49:57 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:50:32 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:56:32 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-153.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 04:56:59 -!- MHOOO [n=yeh@6-010.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:01:01 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-48-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 05:04:03 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@151.204.138.99] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:07:34 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-99.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:53 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:32:19 adityo [n=user@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 05:32:47 -!- _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:52 good morning to all 05:34:34 -!- adityo [n=user@202.87.51.241] has quit [Client Quit] 05:54:03 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit ["Untill I come back."] 05:59:49 beach: I'm interested in arc, got a url for that? 06:00:21 I mean, I'm interested in new directions for lisp, as well as the old ways, and what people think of them :) 06:00:27 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:00:55 spacebat: I don't know the url, but you can start at Paul Graham's web site. 06:01:15 spacebat: the Arc site has a pretty nice rundown of Arc. Specially in relation to CL. 06:01:28 minion: tell spacebat about paul graham 06:01:28 spacebat: please look at paul graham: Paul Graham is a lisp hacker who wrote several books about Common Lisp, became rich and famous by making what became Yahoo!Store, and is now developing a new lisp dialect, Arc. http://www.cliki.net/paul%20graham 06:02:20 also known as the "Canonical Smug Lisp Weenie" 06:02:33 my goal in life is to one day be as smug as him 06:06:13 -!- prip [n=_prip@host58-125-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:10:53 sykopomp: I can put up with Graham because he at least, more or less, built his company strategy around Lisp and actually wrote one of the main books on CL. 06:11:18 good morning 06:11:27 Adamant: I don't consider "Smug Lisp Weenie" to be a bad title. 06:11:31 hello mvilleneuve 06:11:58 sykopomp: the four people beach mentioned probably all consider themselves Smug Lisp Weenies 06:12:03 except Gavino 06:12:11 *beach* leaves for work 06:13:23 sykopomp: also CL and Scheme aren't the only games in town at this point. the ML's and Haskell are also pretty advanced. 06:14:11 not to mention all the crazy research languages that use advanced expressive typing schemes that make my brain bleed 06:14:30 Agda, Epigram, etc. 06:14:54 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:18:02 prip [n=_prip@host9-123-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 06:19:13 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:19:23 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 06:20:13 turjo [n=fhs@pool-71-183-1-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:31 are any of the other languages homoiconic? I think Io is but its not often discussed 06:25:14 sorry I've been coming and going, I know who PG is, just finished ACL 06:25:54 I hope to be smug one day too 06:26:10 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:28:10 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:35 I hear that Arc's main 'optimization' seems to be shaving keystrokes off frequently used forms 06:28:40 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.164.95] has joined #lisp 06:28:49 but the way PG talks about it, he's aiming for something more fundamental 06:29:16 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 06:29:36 I'm not sure what he finds lacking in CL, but given he's using mzscheme to write arc, I guess he doesn't like lisp2, and does like call/cc and guaranteed TCO 06:30:07 It's perfectly ok to prefer scheme. 06:32:01 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-61-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:29 _zenon_ [n=x@dhcp-195-217.nomad.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 06:33:01 _zenon__ [n=x@dhcp-195-217.nomad.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 06:33:08 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@dhcp-195-217.nomad.chalmers.se] has quit [Client Quit] 06:33:26 -!- _zenon__ is now known as _zenon_ 06:33:46 for academic purposes at least :) 06:36:45 lurcio [n=marc@itsnotnormal.plus.com] has joined #lisp 06:42:25 -!- turjo [n=fhs@pool-71-183-1-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:43:52 -!- lurcio [n=marc@itsnotnormal.plus.com] has quit [] 06:44:51 spacebat: I think strong expressive static typing and Lisp-style metaprogramming are mutually exclusive - you can have one but not the other. 06:45:57 Adamant: why do you think that? 06:46:38 jdz: I thought that you couldn't do macros with static typing 06:46:59 Adamant: macros are nothing more than code transformations 06:46:59 I'd think you can. 06:47:11 The types can be checked during expansion. 06:47:32 jdz: I know Pre-Scheme gives you static typing for optimization, but no macros 06:48:04 Adamant: well that's no reason to conclude that it's not doable. 06:49:05 jdz: I was told the author didn't implement it because you couldn't. 06:49:34 hell, c++ does it 06:49:42 Adamant: look at liskell or whatever it is called 06:50:04 V-ille: C++ gives you real macros? 06:50:08 almost 06:50:18 jdz: actually this jogged my memory and I'm looking at that right now 06:50:42 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 06:50:43 the thing that sets lisp apart is that you can actually decompose the body given to macro and do anything with it 06:51:23 other languages allow treating the closure as a monolithic block but the contents are not available for decomposing 06:51:52 V-ille: in CL you can't decompose a closure too 06:51:54 although I don't know if forthcoming variadic templates would allow that for c++ in addition to closure 06:52:01 (whatever it means) 06:52:16 jdz: ok, not a closure, but a macro can fiddle with it's parameters as a normal list 06:52:46 V-ille: yes, code is a tree. if the tree contains type-declarations it's still a tree 06:53:07 many other languages allow (something before) (stuff given to macro or whatever) (something after) 06:53:24 lisp allows you to access the stuff given to macro and it's uniform 06:54:46 -!- Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:55:04 so, other languages (like c++) come close, but don't go the whole nine yards 06:55:24 there are usually more restrictions in the name of performance or whatever 06:55:53 I think the 'thing' about lisp is that it has all these things put together into a pretty easy-to-understand interface (s-exps are pretty easy to understand..) 06:56:38 so you have GC, compilation, great macros, pretty much any paradigm you want to work with (and mix and match them), CLOS, the MOP, etc. 06:56:39 yes, the uniformity. lisp macros are lisp. c++ templates are not c++ in the general sense :) 06:57:11 all in one pretty nice package. So sure, a lot of languages implement a lot of lisp's features, but they don't seem to do it as cleanly or as well as lisp takes all of those and puts them together. 06:57:16 and i think some people are put off by the fact that programmers are given complete freedom with respect to what code transformations they may do 06:57:41 A more dire difficulty to integrate macros comes from the distinction between statement and expression. 06:57:51 yes, you can inject code in between operations of a body of code given to a macro. oh the horror. :) 06:57:53 I think some people are put off by the idea of thinking when they code (such is the impression I'm getting from the Java class I'm taking) 06:58:04 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:58:04 "Shall I expand to if(){}else{} or to ()?():() ? 06:59:12 -!- derekv [n=dlverlee@java.csl.mtu.edu] has left #lisp 06:59:37 kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:02 there's a restriction, the language-that-shall-not-be-named allows only functions to be defined in a sort-of-macro way, you cannot expand to statements 07:00:33 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 07:00:37 morning 07:00:45 off to work -> 07:00:55 same here 07:03:53 -!- DanielRM [n=daniel@cpc1-grim8-0-0-cust625.nott.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:06:14 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:07:20 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:09:53 -!- marcoe [n=me@host81-158-133-32.range81-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Quitting"] 07:11:02 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:17:07 good morning 07:18:31 hi 07:18:39 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:19:54 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.164.95] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:23:32 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 07:24:10 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:26:46 -!- bryteise [n=bryteise@c-76-115-234-122.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:27:18 bryteise [n=bryteise@c-76-115-234-122.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:19 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [Client Quit] 07:28:44 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:29:54 -!- jk_ is now known as jk 07:34:36 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:38:50 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:39:56 -!- kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 07:41:20 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-48-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:44:20 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:26 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@dhcp-195-217.nomad.chalmers.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:45:02 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 07:47:32 anyone has experience with f2cl and its lapack package? i need some help. it's corrupting my lisp image. examples would be of great help. 07:52:57 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:56:25 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:57 -!- eaumontab is now known as abeaumont 08:01:36 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 08:01:55 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:08:46 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit ["Untill I come back."] 08:10:40 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:11:38 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:04 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:14:05 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:15:23 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 08:16:41 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:18:29 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:20:15 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 08:24:53 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:25:06 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:25:25 morning lispers 08:29:40 marcoecc [n=me@dial81-135-227-200.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 08:29:41 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:31:19 -!- hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:32:30 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 08:33:14 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:23 Armon [n=armon@58.207.152.246] has joined #lisp 08:40:12 pjb- [n=pjb@81-66-48-185.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:42:34 ths [n=ths@port-212-202-236-178.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:45:13 kami- [n=user@p4FD38EA9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:45:13 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:45:15 hello 08:46:12 -!- Armon [n=armon@58.207.152.246] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:49:05 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-48-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 08:49:50 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:15 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:55:03 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:55:19 does anybody know of subversion bindings for CL? 08:57:13 lyte_ [n=lyte@60-242-109-30.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:57:44 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:59:31 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.135.48] has joined #lisp 08:59:39 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-81-173-172-239.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:53 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:05:26 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-81-173-172-239.netcologne.de] has quit [] 09:08:07 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 09:08:18 kami-: What are subversion bindings? 09:08:23 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:10 cYmen: subversion has a C API which one could use (e.g. to embed subversion functionality in one's app). I thought maybe somebody is aware of say CFFI bindings for subversion. 09:12:10 I'm not aware of any; if cl-user.net and cliki come up empty, it's unlikely anybody has done them before 09:14:33 antifuchs: thank you. I have checked both. 09:15:59 Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF7D59.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:46 does slime repl buffers have a mode-hook? i want to enable paredit but can't finde the appropriate hook... 09:17:19 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2F45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:27 kami-: no need to be complete; just defcfun the libsvn functions you need as you need them 09:18:15 or libsubversion, I don't know 09:19:06 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:17 S11001001: thanks. I've started reading the CFFI manual. Will get to defcfun, soon. 09:20:59 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:21:53 jdz: slime-repl-mode 09:22:37 blandest: ok, thanks! 09:25:43 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.214.151] has joined #lisp 09:26:38 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-48-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:31:17 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B444.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:19 is Kevin Rosenberg on this channel ? I'd like to know if he is planning to mantain clsql, or he has abandoned the project, if so I would ask him to take over its maintenance 09:36:05 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 09:38:34 Youcontact him by mail 09:38:46 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483DB6E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:52 morning 09:38:53 You should contact by mail, I mean 09:38:55 still sleepy 09:39:25 morning Xof 09:40:24 do you know any news about Kevin Rosenberg and clsql, is this project maintained anymore ? 09:40:33 Xof ? 09:40:58 tcr, were you talking to me ? 09:41:01 H4ns [n=hans@72-255-4-111.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:43 kiuma: Sure 09:43:01 tcr, if I find his email ... 09:43:57 seems he stopped lisping on 2007 09:44:38 email found 09:45:38 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:59 I think a colleague tried to get some patches to cl-sql out last year sometime without getting a response. 09:46:45 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-85-73.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 09:48:39 e271, I posted a patch to add joins support too, but I see no activities neither on the ml, I wouoldn't like to fork, I hope kevin will answer to the email I've just sent to hmi 09:49:50 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.231.122] has joined #lisp 09:49:56 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:50:01 kiuma: If he makes contact, I've got a patch for Oracle support on SBCL. :-) 09:50:17 kiuma: I might try a "light" fork, then 09:51:18 I have come to "shadow" every ASDF package locally in a distributed version control (I'm using mercurial). 09:51:43 e271, what do you mean by "light"? 09:51:52 hg (aka mercurial) makes communicating diffs easier. 09:52:03 using an alternative git repo ? 09:52:30 "light" in the sense that I don't publish the changes, but track public patches that I can find. 09:52:44 A better word than "light" might be "internal" 09:53:14 kiuma: yeah. 09:53:45 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-153.kosnet.ru] has quit ["."] 09:54:27 borism [n=boris@195-50-206-234-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 09:55:22 e271, anyway I hope he may answer, I think unofficial repos are somewhat 'strange' 09:55:26 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 09:55:29 Agreed, 09:56:11 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host231.190-137-183.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:56:46 kiuma: I'll check to see if we ever got a response for clsql. 09:56:46 a maintainer that does not answer is as good as no maintainer 09:57:24 +1 09:57:29 if a package is apparently abandoned, it is always a good idea to offer taking over maintenance to the previous maintainer. clsql seems to be such a package. 09:58:02 H4ns, I've just sent him an email for this purpose 09:58:43 I find to be a really pity that this project seems to be abandoned 10:03:15 nah, it was wrong-headed from the start. which database server are you using? 10:03:37 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:03:45 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-206-234-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:04:44 ogod morning, by the way 10:05:22 ogod morning indeed 10:05:59 (ye gods and little fishes: each time I look at pcl/low.lisp and early-low.lisp, my brain explodes) 10:06:03 borism [n=boris@195-50-206-234-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 10:09:10 Ogedei, I try to create web application that may switch from oracle to pgsql and mysql transparently 10:09:28 and odbc connections too 10:09:46 do you plan to keep the databases in sync? 10:10:50 kiuma: oh, right, then you're stuck with clsql 10:11:40 antifuchs, It often happens that when you create a web application (resellable) you have to adapt it to the customer needs, sometimes he has oracle sometimes mysql, etc, (if he has mssql I usually abandon him) 10:11:50 ah 10:12:08 I thought you meant that there is one application that should reconnect to different DB systems transparently. 10:12:19 what you say makes sense - what I understood didn't (: 10:12:31 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-48-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:12:33 :) 10:12:55 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 10:13:38 rewrinting all queries in a big application would be terrible, it's for this reason that I use ORM tools 10:14:00 I mean generally in everyday work 10:14:22 I've found that usually I need queries too complicated to express in a portable way, so I've given up on database independence 10:15:48 says the author of postmodern ((: 10:16:15 I agree - it's very hard to achieve functionality and acceptable performance on big data sets without knowing which database you're targeting 10:16:21 harder than it's worth, most of the time (: 10:16:24 timor [n=sun@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:17:09 antifuchs: for small datasets, the approach can be viable. 10:17:14 sure 10:17:24 antifuchs: kind of like "give them some initial crack for free" :) 10:17:26 sometimes the value of "small" varies (-: 10:18:00 it worked for us until there were 1 million posts (which took a few weeks), then things had to be tuned for the db system 10:19:21 heh, that's very fitting 10:19:22 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-3-87.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:20:56 one could boldly claim that orms don't scale. that always makes a fine beginning of a pointless discussion. 10:21:04 it does 10:21:29 it's bad usage of ORMs that doesn't scale (: 10:23:21 antifuchs: "but it is inherently wrong" rah rah 10:23:26 tee hee 10:23:38 that's such a great way of convincing people (: 10:24:12 I'd say that if you want an object store, you shouldn't use a relation store 10:24:23 though of course, few objects store are as mature as the big SQL servers 10:24:29 *stores 10:24:48 -!- timor [n=sun@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 10:25:14 Ogedei: that is what the oracle guys in our company say - sure we know it's wrong and smells like shit, but we can handle that and all your load. 10:25:31 "there's got to be a pony in here somewhere!" 10:25:35 hahah 10:25:44 Ogedei: which object stores are nearly as mature as SQL servers? 10:25:47 i've been working with allegrocache -- it's not painless either 10:25:54 in fact, it's pretty painful 10:26:14 kami-: i used to work with versant, it was rather cool. 10:26:14 but not having the huge conceptual mismatch between tables and objects is nice 10:26:18 kami-: and mature, too 10:27:05 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:27:13 ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 10:27:29 H4ns: do you happen to know how much Versant costs? 10:27:43 kami-: "please contact sales for a quote" 10:27:49 :) 10:28:09 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-036-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:13 kami-: it is not exactly cheap. then, if you want cheap, go relational. 10:29:15 Some time ago, I read a lot about object DBs and there seemed to be some implemented in Lisp in the 80s. 10:29:52 Statice is one. I have a book of DB papers that inclueds one on the design of Statice. 10:30:21 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:30:44 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.135.48] has left #lisp 10:30:56 kami-: I have heard that too. I wonder if it was an initial version of Ingres or something like that. 10:31:56 Xach: yes, I've read about Statice. And there was another one... wait 10:32:01 statice looks really nice on paper 10:32:22 H4ns: the way you say that makes me think you have a horror story coming 10:32:53 Orion/ITASCA: developed on Lisp Machines as Orion and later sold as ITASCA. 10:33:15 Xach: no - it just is tied to symbolics hardware. you can't easily run it on opengenera, so i could never actually try it. 10:33:40 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:40 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:50 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B444.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:57 A chapter in a German book mentions all of them: http://wwwdb.informatik.uni-rostock.de/baeren/kapitel12/ 10:35:04 Statice sort of inspired ObjectStore, which is sort of nice and certainly mature 10:35:22 and bloody expensive, unless already dead (I haven't kept track) 10:35:41 Does anyone know if the standard says anything about violating the types annotated in the Arguments and Values section? 10:35:41 franz has a mapper for OS that one can buy, i think. 10:35:49 AllegroStore (which was before AllegroCache) was based on it 10:35:55 AllegroStore, yeah 10:36:10 I think it's purely implementation-dependent, and may depend on safety values etc; but perhaps the CLHS contains some note about it. 10:36:21 ah, there was gemstone, too. that looked kind of cool on paper, too 10:37:12 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAEC54.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:28 *Xach* should get dan weinreb to sign his chapter 10:39:32 tcr: clhs 1.4.4.3 10:41:34 -!- lyte_ [n=lyte@60-242-109-30.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:42:32 Xof: So it's totally undefined. Thanks. 10:43:39 there is one of those object databases that is ridiculously performant 10:43:53 I wish I could remember which one it was 10:44:05 all object databases are ridiculously, given the right benchmark. 10:44:28 insert "performant" in the proper position, please. 10:44:31 H4ns: this one put other object databases to shame IIRC 10:44:57 Adamant: ah, one that was fine-tuned to perform well on oodb benchmarks :) 10:46:00 Adamant: i've seen every single database vendor come up with examples where their strategy was vastly superiour to what the competition does. marketing pep talk, best ignored. 10:46:43 H4ns: it's entirely possible 10:46:43 but this one looked even more expensive than Verdant 10:47:40 haha 10:50:39 ok. turns out what I was thinking of is not an object database. 10:50:45 http://www.kx.com/products/ 10:51:01 H4ns: how's this one? does it live up to the speed hype? 10:51:05 lichtblau [n=user@pD954311B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:06 Adamant: this one is _truly_ different. they have all the features _and_ are 10 times faster than oracle. also, they scale indefinitely. it is because of the q language that they use 10:52:23 so, do believe the hype. 10:52:31 sure! 10:52:57 H4ns: does buying the program get you a little Flavor Flav bobblehead? 10:52:57 H4ns: wow, right there it was really hard to know whether you are being sarcastic (: 10:52:58 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:53:26 Adamant: you know, when mysql came to the market, they told everyone how fast they are and everyone ran their benchmarks and verified it. 10:53:52 H4ns: sorry if I'm naive about databases 10:54:12 Adamant: some people said "yeah, well, sure they are fast, because they don't have transactions", but that did not stop the crowd from deploying mysql in all sorts of situations. 10:55:01 nowadays, mysql has almost all the features every other real database has, and their performance is no better than, say, oracle or postgresql 10:55:17 sometimes, blatant lies and ignorance are a good way to become very successful. 10:55:27 the database world is mostly lies, and fud. 10:57:06 H4ns: well, it's just like this. some languages are much faster than others, in general. so I kind of assumed with different database architectures and such, you could get databases of vastly differing speeds. 10:58:08 all I ever use are SQL-derived databases, because they are The Standard. 10:58:36 Adamant: there is no silver bullet. any performance advantage that is in the orders of magnitudes comes with a significant drawback. 10:59:31 H4ns: ah. so the most you can hope for is that the drawbacks aren't a problem for your application. 11:00:44 yep. you just need to be very sure that the drawbacks really don't matter. this is the fud part. 11:03:03 Ogedei, it's java, but have you ever took a look at db4o, seems to work well 11:03:16 for a pure OO db 11:03:46 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.45.123] has quit [] 11:03:47 Does anyone happen to know how, in sbcl, PCL (CLOS) classes are created for conditions and structures that are part of the implementation of PCL itself? 11:04:39 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:33 aha, I have found it 11:07:02 hmmm, sf.net CVS repo rsyncing doesn't seem to be working now 11:08:16 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:09:19 they moved stuff around 11:09:21 check site status 11:09:34 ah 11:09:48 (all sorts of things changed, including IP addresses and ssh host keys 11:09:48 fixing the git repo mirror in a few hours, then 11:09:52 oooh 11:09:52 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:10:03 so that would explain why the manual upload didn't work, either 11:10:18 thanks (: 11:10:26 they changed access for web/shell stuff too,yes 11:10:53 nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:13:20 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:13:48 Good grief, why would they change ssh host keys? 11:14:19 Can you access news.gmane.org? 11:14:20 maybe for Debian reasons (: 11:14:52 _zenon_ [n=x@dhcp-195-217.nomad.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 11:17:13 kiuma: never heard of db4o before, taking a look 11:25:36 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 11:26:24 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:29 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:28:45 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 11:29:20 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:43 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.214.151] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:32:27 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:33:17 -!- me-so-stupid_ [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:34:16 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:25 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@dhcp-195-217.nomad.chalmers.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:41:35 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:42:37 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:15 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-78-4-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:47:34 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:49:17 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 11:49:36 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 11:52:58 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:54:07 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:54:28 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B444.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:57 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:01:41 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:06:58 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:10:08 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:11 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:13:29 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 12:14:11 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 12:17:59 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 12:19:28 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 12:20:50 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:40 silenius [n=jl@p5B25CF85.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:36 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:25:20 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119114112.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 12:26:49 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-57-50.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:26:53 -!- zpiro_ [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit ["leaving"] 12:27:05 Which portable threads library would you recommend to use? So far, I found "Bordeaux Threads" and "GBBopen". 12:27:10 Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 12:27:15 -!- Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Client Quit] 12:27:22 Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 12:28:58 hi guys, is anyone here using ECL? (noob here) when I run my test program from command line like this: "ecl -load test.lisp" everything works fine, but if I try "ecl -compile test.lisp" I get error "There is no package with the name ASDF.." 12:29:00 tomoyuki28jp: bordeaux threads is more maintained, but the functionality is limited. if you need more features (like, say, timeouts), portability is not really possible. 12:29:04 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@chello062178150152.7.14.univie.teleweb.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:30:07 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2F45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:30:12 -!- grc [n=user@217.33.170.226] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:31:02 H4ns: Oh, really. I am currently developing a web server, and do you think the limited functions would be enough? 12:31:10 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:33:54 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 12:34:13 inetic: You should require asdf first. 12:34:16 tomoyuki28jp: a http server? i would not use threads at all for that. 12:35:31 inetic: or more probably remove that asdf invocation from test.lisp. 12:35:34 H4ns, just curious, how about handling simutaneous requests ? 12:35:55 kmkaplan: (require 'asdf) is the first line in that script, I'll try to remove it 12:36:12 inetic: also remove any asdf invocation. 12:36:41 H4ns: yes, a http server. I am kinda learning and developing at the same time. 12:36:58 kiuma: with an event oriented scheme - basically, the server monitors a number of file descriptors and dispatches to non-blocking handler functions. 12:37:01 inetic: but have you tried using ECL's build system ? 12:37:02 kmkaplan: but then I'll not have the systems loaded, will I? 12:37:08 inetic: no. 12:37:26 inetic: but you do you need them to get things compiled? 12:37:35 H4ns, thx 12:38:25 kmkaplan: the program is using usocket, so I think I do have to load it 12:38:44 inetic: check asdf:make-build http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/re03.html 12:40:11 kmkaplan: I will, many thanks. one more question, you mentioned ECL's build system, is it ECL's own implementation of ASDF? 12:41:28 You can either use ECL's modified ASDF or specific compiler extensions. 12:42:20 the former builds on the later. Have a look at the chapter "Building programs" in the documentation. 12:43:06 going to check it out, thanks again 12:43:17 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 12:43:24 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:43:45 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2F45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:28 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:46:00 H4ns: Maybe I still didn't get it. My understanding is, without threads, CPU will execute one process at the same time. Therefore a http server will be able to handle only one request at the same time without threads. So let's say if request1 take 10 secs to return response, request2 will take 10 secs to start be processed. Is that correct? (I am not familiar with threads things, so I may be wrong.) 12:46:59 tomoyuki28jp: threads are only one approach to handling concurrency. another approach is to wait for multiple file descriptors and use non-blocking callback functions to handle incoming data. 12:48:18 H4ns: I will search for "file descriptors". Thanks for the info. 12:50:30 jewel [n=jewel@41.247.195.116] has joined #lisp 12:51:11 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:40 tomoyuki28jp: you may rather want to look at something high level, like http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/POSA/ 12:51:52 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 12:52:25 aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 12:52:38 antgreen [n=green@localhostlocaldomain.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:47 H4ns: I will look into it. thanks! 12:53:56 H4ns: are these non-blocking callback functions a standard in common lisp? 12:53:59 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:54:10 H4ns: I have read many source codes of web servers, but most of them were using threads including hunchentoot. Do you know any http server with uses the approach you just told me? 12:54:47 tomoyuki28jp: actually, UCW on clisp uses that technique. 12:54:53 since clisp has no threads. 12:55:08 matimago: oh really. Thanks for the info! I will look into it. 12:56:05 inetic: the primitives aren't part of the standard 12:57:32 inetic: the common lisp standard does not specify advanced i/o. 12:58:12 cheers 12:58:42 tomoyuki28jp: event driven is the new cool. iolib is event driven, xsocket, twisted and ace are frameworks for that in other languages 12:59:01 actually, event driven was always cool, but it is gaining popularity 12:59:47 the SEDA paper by matt welsh has an interesting architecture for hybrid non-blocking, event-driven and threads 13:01:37 -!- dbbddbdb_ [n=dbbddbdb@77.41.74.86] has left #lisp 13:03:14 H4ns: Why the hype? Or rather: why the turnover from threads? 13:03:53 tcr: threads are notoriously difficult to get right because of the locking issues involved. non-blocking techniques are far easier to reason about. 13:04:42 *H4ns* fondly remembers the openvms api which was fully event driven and had very clear semantics. then came pthreads. 13:05:10 jwz mentioned something about that in his interview for gigamonkey's book. the first netscapes were big state machines. then the new engineers came in with threads. 13:05:54 Xach, H4ns: are they talking about the same thing as we just did? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/47b1db06c2c7d5eb?fwc=2 13:06:12 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:06:19 inetic: yes, for some value of "same" 13:07:25 H4ns: I might be wrong, but the approach of Erlang is similar with the one you just told me? 13:07:46 H4ns: Does event-driven mean that there a few well-defined synchronization points? 13:08:00 tomoyuki28jp: erlang works on the language level and does everything through message passing, which is implemented in an event-driven fashion by the underlying virtual machine. 13:08:27 tcr: yes - it basically means that your function always runs to completion and is never interrupted. 13:09:43 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:09:59 H4ns: What's "your function"? Are you obligated to yield from that function explicitly, I guess? 13:10:12 __name__ [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 13:10:21 yield, as in give up computation 13:11:05 I wonder how well special variables mix with event-driven currency 13:11:09 tcr: correct. event driven systems have been extended to provide the cooperative multitasking model. coroutines formalize that appraoch, if you will. 13:11:15 tcr: incredibly well! :) 13:11:37 tcr: if your runtime knows how to switch stacks between activites, of course. 13:12:08 Ah, ok. 13:12:12 hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 13:12:15 please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can not use this approach in all the cases. e.g. if you use a foreign function that takes 10 seconds to generate an output, many times you can not afford to make the other requests wait for such time. 13:12:38 H4ns: But all that is not realy available for CL, and that's the reason why you took a look at clojure? 13:12:53 -!- hugopt is now known as hugo 13:13:46 tcr: yes - but i also like the infrastructure, the improved data structures and the reader of clojure. 13:14:06 tcr: i just discovered jconsole, and that almost made me cry :) 13:14:16 I didn't understand the not-interning part. How does the reader work in clojure exactly? 13:15:13 tcr: it does not intern the symbols that it reads, just saves the names. the cl reader wants to intern all symbols it reads, making it sorta difficult to read arbitary source code 13:16:11 What does clojure's reader return? In case of CL, it's mostly lists consisting of symbols. 13:16:44 it returns symbols in namespaces 13:17:10 but a fundamental property of symbols is their EQness, so they must be interned at some point 13:17:54 tcr: which is why there is no eq in clojure :) 13:17:56 Hm, or you scratch that, and make them identitfable by name 13:18:07 so no package system? 13:18:15 no, namespaces instead. 13:18:18 sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has joined #lisp 13:18:32 *Xach* belated makes his joke: "sellout scales" 13:18:40 :) 13:18:49 Could you say it's a Scheme? 13:19:00 tic: the author is firmly a common lisper. 13:19:45 ... and yet it's a Lisp-1 without proper symbols and packages? (that's how I understand it) 13:20:09 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has quit [Client Quit] 13:20:23 tic: what is "proper" in this context? 13:20:28 Yeah it's a bit of a leap. Not necessarily bad, though. 13:20:38 tic: i mean, in which respect do they not work/are they bad? 13:20:43 kami-` [n=user@p4FD38EA9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:57 sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has joined #lisp 13:21:01 H4ns, "they're not CL-ish". Maybe I misunderstood what Xach remark was supposed to mean. 13:21:03 H4ns: How does its macro system function? 13:21:18 it's all explained in the presentation. 13:21:54 tcr: it was quite remarkable. every clever lisp and scheme hacker wanted to know the same sorts of things the clever lisp hackers here would ask, and rich had explored the issues and made a good decision about it. 13:22:27 I missed that a video recording was published meanwhile. 13:22:28 except for the comma thing 13:22:35 tcr: i think it's a performance hard to duplicate as a second-tier reteller. 13:22:41 that really is kind of arbitrary 13:23:59 *tcr* continues trying to make the ship called CL sink less. 13:25:38 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:41 slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FEAF8D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:52 tcr: common lisp is still a lot better for trying out things and toying around 13:26:14 ahh.. event-driven versus threaded. It seems to me that things like ACE are gaining popularity because when you implement a reactor/proactor pattern, it can abstract away whether threads are used or not 13:26:17 tcr: and also, imperative and object oriented programming are fine techniques which are not available with clojure. 13:26:59 that means that the "old-style" of thread programming, where you directly mess with threads and locks, is replaced by a higher-level model 13:27:03 mulligan [n=user@e178017050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:27:12 lisp would be well-suited for such a model 13:27:15 V-ille: which is a good thing. threads are a very low-level mechanism, and the basic issue is that they require locks. if you abstract threads away and provide for mechanisms that do not require locks, that is fine. 13:27:26 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 13:27:27 exactly 13:27:46 I looked at a c++ example, Boost.Join I think, that was very eye-opening 13:28:08 futures (like in java) are similar, but they are only part of the story 13:28:56 such abstractions scale nicely, because they are (at least in theory) able to abstact away the detail of whether the code runs on uniprocessor, multicore, multi-processor or even cluster 13:29:15 there's something to really strive for 13:32:27 the only theoretical problem I see with these things is that when something goes awry, the users of such facilities might be totally unaware of threads/locks and concurrency in general, troubleshooting can be a bitch through such abstractions 13:32:41 but that's the age-old "morons should not program" problem. :) 13:33:16 :) 13:33:25 gah. work. 13:33:29 -!- H4ns [n=hans@72-255-4-111.client.stsn.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:34:27 -!- slash__ is now known as slash_^ 13:34:41 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:47 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD38EA9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:22 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAEC54.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:32 -!- slash_^ is now known as slash_ 13:36:47 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:38:44 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-57-50.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:16 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-036-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:48:06 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:06 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:58:36 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 13:58:44 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:03 H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:19 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:00:57 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 14:04:45 -!- marcoecc [n=me@dial81-135-227-200.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit ["Quitting"] 14:09:48 rickardg [n=user@c-e51ae455.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:10:00 gk3141592 [n=chatzill@81.214.133.44] has joined #lisp 14:12:12 -!- nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:12:17 good afternoon 14:13:44 gah, chipz doesn't compile cleanly on sbcl (defconstant issues) 14:13:54 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:45 yeah, sbcl catches several places here where people using ccl put a string or list in a defconstant when they needed to use our defconstant-equal macro instead 14:14:49 Xach: redefinition of? 14:15:10 sbcl's very fussy about devconstants :) 14:15:39 schasi [n=schasi@p54A2764C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:43 I would have expected nfroyd to know about that. 14:18:09 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:50 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:19:07 -!- gk3141592 [n=chatzill@81.214.133.44] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 14:20:14 matley- [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 14:21:22 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.247.195.116] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:21:57 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:22:40 jewel [n=jewel@41.247.195.116] has joined #lisp 14:23:03 telexicon [n=will@unaffiliated/chowmeined] has joined #lisp 14:23:10 -!- telexicon [n=will@unaffiliated/chowmeined] has left #lisp 14:24:59 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:27:17 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 14:28:53 arrrgh 14:29:05 and chipz also makes assumptions about the time #.+constant+ will work 14:29:35 ah assumptions :) 14:29:43 *Xach* blarg farg a largin blarg 14:30:09 trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-238-056.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:24 *chuckle* 14:31:39 NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-72.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:31:50 *Xach* feels his plans for world domination slipping away 14:32:42 nostoi [n=nostoi@98.Red-83-34-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:27 MHOOO [n=yeh@3-023.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:40:36 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119114112.chello.sk] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:40:48 Is there some way to check whether a given method (defined per defmethod) exists? 14:41:09 find-method 14:41:11 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-50.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:17 Ah, thank you. 14:41:54 i guess he wanted to know whether there are applicable methods to a certain set of concrete arguments. 14:41:58 but maybe not. 14:42:19 That would be even better. 14:42:57 clhs compute-applicable-methods 14:42:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comput.htm 14:43:26 Very nice, thanks again. 14:43:28 l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:44:04 MHOOO: see also no-applicable-method 14:44:04 user___ [n=user@p54923CE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:08 clhs no-applicable-method 14:44:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_no_app.htm 14:45:12 hi, is it possible (in a lisp implementation independent way) to set double-float as the default of every floating point related functions? e.g. (exp 1) 14:45:58 is clbuild threadsafe for executing "update --main-projects" and "buildsbcl" in paralell? (its not "buildsbcl" directly, since the command has changed, but the docu still mentions it) 14:46:12 no, the spec defines that the return values of those functions must be single-floats when called with rationals 14:46:38 beach: Can I "override" the behavior of no-applicable-method to generate a method on-the-fly? 14:46:52 MHOOO: no. 14:46:54 wow! chipz is tricky. is #+foo (bar baz #1=quux) #-foo #1# really kosher? 14:46:57 *Xach* reads 14:46:58 MHOOO: i tried that just last week. 14:47:08 MHOOO: sure. 14:47:08 MHOOO: unless you already have the generic method defined, that is. 14:47:08 Ah, too bad. 14:47:19 er the generic function. 14:47:22 bougyman doesn't know jack. 14:47:23 I always mistype that. 14:47:26 Yes, the generic is defined. 14:47:28 l4ndfo: (expt 1.0d0) 14:47:29 Xach: you taught me that jack! 14:47:29 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:47:32 there is no such thing as a generic method 14:47:33 bougyman: not enough jack. 14:47:53 H4ns: i corrected that mistype. 14:48:00 jsnell: thx, i was afraid of the same, just i don't know who the hell is using single-floats today.... 14:48:01 l4ndfo: some implementations have a switch for it; I think clisp's is *default-float-format* 14:49:01 l4ndfo: The return value will be adapted to the format you pass to numeric functions. So make sure that you're values are double float before you pass them. 14:49:03 rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:10 "your" 14:49:13 s/you're/your/ 14:49:16 tcr: yes i know, but my users may not, and it is a comfort problem as well 14:49:23 Xach: Can I simply define a new method on no-applicable-method which returns a method? 14:49:26 MHOOO: i thought you mean generate a method for which no generic function is already defined. that can't be done as no-applicable-method takes a generic function as a required argument. 14:49:46 MHOOO: i don't quite follow the use case. 14:49:57 MHOOO: what would be an example of doing that? 14:50:24 MHOOO: no, but you can define a method on no-applicable-method which defines a method and then calls the generic function again 14:50:26 Ensuring a default method for a generic method exists. 14:50:47 a primary method for a generic function 14:51:04 tcr: the problem i am writing a library which will communicate with other C related stuff (via network) which waits doubles, so i have to check and refuce to transmit the float if it is not double, it is the best i can do 14:51:05 MHOOO: just define a method with no specialized parameters. 14:51:17 MHOOO: i get that, but i guess i'm wondering about your specific situation where this is the solution. 14:51:24 l4ndfo: at least, you can set *read-default-float-format* 14:51:41 but what beach said 14:52:12 Xach: Maybe I'm overcomplicating things. I'll try with beach's approach (which should have been my initial approach...). 14:52:25 stassats`: that doesn't protect agains (exp 1) style things, so that is a half solution which is very dangerous... 14:53:15 i have to use doubles because it is the required precision, if i accidentally switch to single floats it can be a trouble 14:53:19 l4ndfo: Make your users use math functions from a customized package. 14:54:14 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:54:22 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:54:29 l4ndfo: then, write in the documentation which type you accept and accept only that type in your library 14:54:43 *Xach* concludes from the *READ-SUPPRESS* documentation that the trick nfroyd uses with #1= and #1# mixed with #+ and #- is not reliable 14:55:01 *Xach* is a little sad that chipz was apparently not tested on much other than sbcl :( 14:55:08 i cannot do that, the users can be any AI lisp programmer from the web, so i think stassats` last suggestion is the only possible way what i already implemented 14:55:14 Xach: why? 14:55:26 (not the *read-suppress* thing, the sad thing) 14:55:33 i just thought it is a common problem and a solution came up... 14:55:44 a common solution :) 14:55:44 Xach: thought you said it didn't compile properly on sbcl either 14:55:46 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:55:53 rsynnott: oh yeah, that too. 14:55:55 l4ndfo: coerce things to double-float within your interface functions 14:56:17 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.215.185] has joined #lisp 14:56:41 Xof: i always enjoy it when other people make it easy for me to reuse their work. some of these portability failures seem gratuitous and relatively easy to check. 14:57:21 Xof: yes it is my problem i have to coerce "all the things" and not just set a variable... 14:58:17 Xach: better they've published it at all than not, surely? 14:58:18 i am having some problem with packages 14:58:21 l4ndfo: You can use an implementation that supports a *default-float-format*; or you can hack your favorite implementation to support it. 14:58:27 i can make a package and get into it 14:58:29 some people presumably find testing on ten different impls tedious :) 14:58:29 Xof: I *think* chipz is intended to be portable. That it's not seems unfortunate to me. I would feel less sad if it leveraged sbcl-only features in some uniquely useful way. 14:58:32 Xach: I can see that having other people doing your work for you might make you happy; I'm not sure that other people not doing your work for you should make you sad 14:58:33 but once in i cant get out 14:58:42 (or don't have access to them; lots of people can't use CCL, for instance) 14:58:48 rsynnott: It's a great start. 14:58:48 says in-package is undefined!! 14:58:49 binarycodes: get into another package 14:58:59 but maybe I read too much into your statement 14:59:09 binarycodes: cl:in-package 14:59:14 Xof: the sadness comes from being initially happy about not having to work on decompression, then finding out I'm partly wrong. 14:59:15 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:59:33 I will, in fact, have to work on chipz to make it work for what I need. 15:00:06 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-239.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:00:18 sure 15:00:33 stassats`: ah it worked, so do i have to import every function is a new package ? 15:00:41 tcr: i think i wll put thse kind of notes into the documentation, i these are good ideas, but i want my library to be suitable for the most lisp impl.s 15:01:16 binarycodes: it's easier to use another package 15:01:22 -!- H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 15:01:59 hmm, ok thanks 15:02:02 binarycodes: (defpackage foo (:use #:cl)) 15:02:33 stassats`: umm, could you kindly tell me what that does? 15:02:48 oh nvm 15:02:55 got it in hyperspec :) 15:03:05 most of the time you will use at least common-lisp package 15:03:26 yes 15:04:30 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has joined #lisp 15:04:31 binarycodes: Read through PCL's symbols & package chapter. Its presentation is more suited to the beginner. 15:05:01 ok, thanks 15:05:06 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2DCEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:09 Is it possible to define several :after side-effects to one method? 15:07:28 MHOOO: It's possible to define multiple :after auxiliary methods for one generic function. 15:07:38 last night I was having some stability issues with sbcl and hunchentoot when my server got slammed. It was a 0.9 version of sbcl, and I've since moved over to a nice new server with a fresh sbcl 1.0.20. 15:07:46 MHOOO: Provided that they're not specializing on the same classes. 15:07:55 here is the backtrace I was getting: http://paste.lisp.org/display/67831 15:08:11 MHOOO: You can, however, write your own method combination which allows multiple :after methods on the same primary method. 15:08:14 anything before 1 is probably old enough to be avoided like the plague at thist point :) 15:08:41 tcr: Sounds like the thing I need. Is there any tutorial out there on how to go on about this? 15:09:06 MHOOO: Why do you think you need it? 15:09:28 MHOOO: keene's book is a good tutorial on CLOS 15:09:33 MHOOO: practical common lisp too 15:09:38 drewc had generously set up a new Xen instance for me, and I had procrastinated getting moved over to it 15:09:41 hrm, when I (describe 'some-class) the repl gives me a decent description, but a summary of the methods that specialize on it (there are X methods specialized for this class) 15:09:51 is there a function I can call on 'some-class to list those methods? 15:10:07 *Xach* has deja vu 15:10:24 sorry, was lost in code, not reading scroll. 15:10:35 tcr: Because I have one method which I want to invoke based on different arguments, which are both specialized on a parameter and specialized on the actual contents of a parameter. 15:11:00 bougyman: compute-applicable-methods is not quite the same thing. 15:11:04 Xach: I'll look up keene's book. 15:11:06 /last xach is not showing me the function. 15:11:15 the hyperspec is somewhat helpful: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffac.htm 15:11:41 clhs compute-applicable-methods 15:11:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comput.htm 15:11:46 Xach: describe obviously knows how to find them, what is it using to give that number? 15:11:49 bougyman: In Xref speak, it's called who-specializes; unfortunately SBCL does not provide it. (At least, its swank backend does not implement it.) 15:11:56 um 15:11:59 how can I put this? 15:12:08 sb-mop:specializer-direct-methods 15:12:14 That is one of the best ways to put it. 15:12:15 -!- aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has left #lisp 15:12:26 *Xof* bows 15:13:07 ok, describing that, it's a generic method. 15:13:13 damnit 15:13:14 no it isn't 15:13:15 generic function 15:13:31 aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 15:14:00 I think I totally misunderstood what bougyman request was about 15:14:12 it happens to be a generic function that does almost exactly what you want 15:14:27 tcr: maybe, but I think who-specializes is basically identical to sb-mop:specializer-direct-methods 15:14:49 I'll take a look at it then. 15:16:10 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178017050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:16:25 mulligan [n=user@e178017050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:16:36 i'm confused, Xof. 15:16:43 maybe we all are 15:16:47 i have to implement that interface with a primary method? 15:16:52 no 15:17:04 you call something like (sb-mop:specializer-direct-methods (find-class 'some-class)) 15:17:12 and it gives you a list of all the methods specialized on that class 15:17:49 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:18:17 (which I thought was what you wanted, and also what tcr said didn't exist) 15:18:49 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:19:05 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-036-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:22 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1C630.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:20:39 Xof: It's not provided by sb-introspect. If it turns out to be that easy, I'll provide a patch. 15:21:05 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 15:21:10 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2F45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:21:27 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:24:36 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-78-4-246.netcologne.de] has quit [] 15:24:37 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25:01 Xof: yes, exactly what I wanted, thank you very much. 15:25:06 Xof: got me right to where I needed to be. 15:25:20 (/usr/lib/sbcl/site/usocket-0.3.7/backend/sbcl.lisp) 15:26:58 tcr: that would be cool 15:27:21 -!- matley- is now known as matley 15:29:59 i'll get the hang of procedural introspection. odd that CLOS implementations differ on that function, though. 15:30:30 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E444EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:57 nick seelenquell 15:31:01 -!- seelenquell__ is now known as seelenquell 15:31:51 seelenquell: new here? :) 15:32:01 yes 15:32:54 That was a somewhat unfortunate uttering to be the first one, but you are welcome here anyway. 15:33:31 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1FDDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:51 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:34:19 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 15:34:23 thx 15:34:55 is here a german isp channel? 15:35:31 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:33 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:35:50 I suspect not, but maybe tcr or antifuchs would know. 15:35:56 You are probably better of trying a german lisp board (if there actually is any). 15:37:01 *beach* thinks it would be strange to discuss Lisp in any other language but English. 15:37:32 seelenquell: The percentage of German speaking people among the regular channel citizens is quite high. But we all speak english to a degree that it seems to be comprehensible by others. 15:37:58 I wouldn't have a clue as to how to translate the verb "to cdr" into any other language. 15:38:18 "cdrer", in French :) 15:38:24 my english is very bad, sorry 15:38:27 seelenquell: If you live near Berlin, or Hamburg, there are Lisp user groups with semi-frequent meetings. The Lisp user group here in Munich seems to be dysfunc 15:38:28 "zum crd" ?^^ 15:38:33 cdr* 15:38:37 mvilleneuve: thanks (I guess! :) 15:38:47 cudieren 15:39:08 beach: apress has indicated interest in a german translation of Practical Common Lisp to gigamonkey. 15:39:18 lets make that "kudieren" then :) 15:39:24 ah, yes. 15:39:28 tcr: nice! 15:39:56 beach: Honestly, I'd never touch a German translation of a technical book. 15:40:10 tcr: I know how you feel exactly. 15:40:19 It's either full of english terminology, so you could have written it in English directly. 15:40:46 Or every terminus is translated, which makes it awkward to read, and later on difficult to communicate with peers. 15:40:47 tcr: I did, though I was 14 or so back then. 15:41:05 *user___* once send in a ticket to his uni library to get him a german lisp book from "the basements". it was not worth the effort at all :-( 15:41:24 *tcr* read a German translation of SICP back when he was 15. He enjoyed it. 15:41:30 tcr: the situation in French is not quite as bad, because we regularly come up with good words that integrate well into the French langauge, and that often become well-established. 15:42:39 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go home"] 15:42:39 *beach* likes the word "ramasse-miettes" (for garbage collector) for instance. 15:42:41 seelenquell: I just joined #lisp.de; feel free to ask me questions there in German. 15:43:06 wow! What service! 15:43:08 *stassats`* read a russian translation of sicp, it was quite good translation 15:43:31 umm, whats this sicp ? 15:43:39 minion: sicp 15:43:39 sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 15:44:29 oh i saw the first couple of lectures 15:45:36 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 15:46:02 mvilleneuve: that reminds me of one of my colleagues who invented "checkouter". 15:47:29 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:21 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbdd59.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:52:14 H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:08 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@198.49.81.62] has joined #lisp 15:54:45 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:50 tcr: sometimes translations are better than the original, like LiSP for instance :) 15:56:49 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:12 beach: Is it? The original is very good. 15:57:36 kmkaplan: beach's wife translated it, he is biased... 15:57:43 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-17-17.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:50 Xach: sshh! 15:57:50 howdy 15:57:53 (but it is a pretty good translation) 15:57:57 hello slyrus_ 15:58:26 hey beach. my time in the purgatory-like state of Kansas is nearing an end. 15:58:51 slyrus_: what on earth (or hell) are you doing in Kansas? 15:58:57 hrm... is mcllim and/or xof's clx busted on recent OSXen? or perhaps it's this patch I applied a while back... 15:59:07 in any case, I can't seem to open mcclim windows 15:59:11 Ha ok. 15:59:21 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-78-4-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:59:30 slyrus_: i saw that too 15:59:32 smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has joined #lisp 15:59:45 wasn't worried about it but now i'm getting a new mac so i'll have to care :( 15:59:57 getting sb being given 16:01:10 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-239.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 16:01:17 kmkaplan: it's so good that at some point it beat Harry Potter on Amazon.ca. 16:01:18 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has left #lisp 16:01:21 kmkaplan: dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/amazon.ca.ps 16:01:29 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has quit [] 16:01:39 beach: I remember that price error. 16:01:54 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 16:02:03 it's too bad only one person (that i know of) got the book delivered at that price :( 16:02:18 nunb [n=user@213-140-17-106.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:02:38 Xach: I thought nobody did. Who is the lucky one? 16:02:50 -!- NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-72.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 16:03:02 beach: i'd have to review logs to be sure, but the price was spotted by someone on #lisp a month or two before the buying frenzy 16:03:31 slyrus_: the machine I tried it on had an updated X11, so I wondered if it were that 16:03:40 beach: there was speculation that it was a cheap photocopy, or a foreign edition, or something. one guy bought it to see. he got a perfectly fine copy delivered, so i mentioned it on my blog... 16:03:54 salex: this is the vanilla X11, IIRC. I'll dig into it when I get back home. 16:03:54 that was the first mistake... 16:04:15 Xach: I see. That makes sense. 16:04:35 a few orders per month and perhaps we'd all still have cheap LiSP copies coming... 16:04:42 hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633014.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:05:32 exactly! 16:05:32 Xach: it's all your fault. 16:05:38 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@210-20-92-190.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit ["sleep"] 16:06:42 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 stable pre-release (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:07:09 ah, it was "REPLeffect" 16:07:56 -!- carlf [i=carlf@photocarl.org] has left #lisp 16:08:46 he ordered it July 17th, it arrived August 7th, i blogged it august 8th. 16:09:53 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@98.Red-83-34-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:09:57 Xach: though, I must say, without your blog, my family would never have understood how important my wife is to the Lisp "community". They got it when she was ahead of Harry Potter. :) 16:10:59 haha 16:11:14 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:39 i wish my family could appreciate it when i say "Wow! i got an email from daniel weinreb!" 16:11:46 Can I add several methods with the progn method-combination type to one generic method? 16:11:58 Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 16:12:08 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633321.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:28 beach: that's excellent! 16:12:39 MHOOO: you can add several methods to any generic function. primary should specialize on different things, though, or they'll replace each other. 16:12:48 primary methods should, rather 16:13:18 Xach: my favorite story is this: When I did my PhD in Baltimore, me and my father called each other regularly. On day he said "what's up" and I said "I am getting my PhD, and me and Kathleen are moving to Bordeaux for me to work at the university" and he said "well, you know, there is not much going on here either". 16:13:30 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:13:53 heh 16:14:42 Xach: Something like (defmethod mymeth progn (somearg) t) seems to be a primary method then, since I get a warning about the generic function being replaced. Is that correct? 16:14:44 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:04 MHOOO: i don't think that's what the warning says, but yes, that's a primary method 16:16:13 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:17:04 MHOOO: generic functions can be thought of as a bundle of methods, some of which are selected and combined to implement the functionality for a given set of arguments. the selection is based on the classes of the arguments and the specialization of the method arguments... 16:17:08 Xach: So how can I use the progn method-combination type then? My methods simply replace eachother, instead of being progn'ed. 16:17:22 MHOOO: specialize the methods. 16:17:33 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.199.253] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:43 MHOOO: if the methods aren't specialized, why have the functionality in two different method bodies? it doesn't work that way. 16:17:47 MHOOO: you can have at most one method for a particular combination of classes. 16:18:26 Hmm, unlucky. 16:19:05 MHOOO: not really! it works pretty well. what problem do you have where you think that's the solution? 16:19:13 beach: one _primary_ method 16:19:15 So, is there any way to write a custom specializer? I would like to specialize depending on a variable which has a certain format. 16:19:32 MHOOO: tell me more! you might not have to do anything extra. 16:19:49 MHOOO: what are you trying to do? 16:19:53 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:24 adeht: right, thanks! 16:22:16 MHOOO: it might also be possible that CLOS isn't the best way to do what you want, in which case you shouldn't be shy about using something else... 16:22:25 I want to do something like: (mymethod (sender receiver '(request something 200)). This should - depending on "something" - invoke a method which the user has specified in code like this: (defmsgmethod mymethod (sender (receiver someclass) (message (request something ?amount))) t) 16:23:30 Basically I want to specialize depending on the "message", which is an argument of format (ident1[, indent2, ...] var1[, var2, ...]) 16:24:03 ml-style pattern matching? 16:24:31 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 16:24:46 tic: Um, no idea. Came up with that on my own. 16:25:26 Xach: my wife sais to tell me that one reason the translation is better is that she collaborated very closely with Christian and so it was his second chance in some ways. 16:25:48 MHOOO: Sounds like something for DESTRUCTURE-CASE. It's defined in SWANK. 16:25:54 *says to tell *you* 16:25:57 gee! 16:26:53 tcr: Destructuring is not really my problem. My problem is setting up different methods for the different message formats. 16:26:56 beach: "plan to throw one away" (: 16:27:01 heh 16:27:04 I didn't realize this applied to book projects, as well (: 16:27:16 antifuchs: yeah, that fits well with the course I am teaching at the moment. 16:27:27 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.231.122] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:27:31 it's Brooks who said that (but you probably know this already) (: 16:27:38 I do yes. 16:28:07 antifuchs: it continues "you will anyway!". 16:28:19 indeed 16:28:53 very good book. And unfortunately still very accurate. 16:29:02 MHOOO: Perhaps you should introduce a generic-function sender-dispatch which takes an arglist like (receiver ident1 ident2 &rest args), and implement sender as (defun sender (receiver msg) (sender-dispatch receiver (first msg) (second msg) (cddr msg)) 16:29:41 antifuchs: next week, I'll spend probably an entire lecture on "how to choose your programming language" 16:30:22 antifuchs: which currently seems to be done by somone reading vaguely-computing-related rags with no scientific nor technological contents 16:30:33 ouch 16:30:36 tcr: I'll try that. 16:32:10 antifuchs: I mean, in the software industry (since my course is about software project management). 16:32:30 ojno [n=ojno@cpc1-pool5-0-0-cust38.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:30 antifuchs: I think it helps my credibility that I have experience with the software industry in 4 (or at least 3) different countries, either as an employee or as a consultant. 16:34:07 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:02 will it hurt your credibility if your lecture consists of thinly disguised arguments in favor of using lisp? 16:35:29 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:32 :-) 16:35:47 Is there any kind of shorthand for the [what seems to this lisp noob to be] boilerplate (lambda (x) (> x 5 #| or any other single test |# )) ? 16:35:51 hefner: I was the teacher of many of the students two years ago in a Lisp-based course, so I don't think they would be surprised. 16:36:40 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:43 ojno: not in standard lisp, no 16:36:45 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:49 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:36:49 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:36:56 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:58 ojno, you could write such a function though. 16:37:02 ojno: several people have written shorthand reader macros that do this, but I'm not sure if that makes the code any more readable 16:37:07 ojno: sometimes there's a :test key parameter you can use 16:37:09 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 16:37:24 ojno: Take a look at CURRY, and RCURRY. It's for example provided by the alexandria library. 16:39:33 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-78-4-246.netcologne.de] has quit [] 16:40:47 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:42:23 I'm surprised one wasn't in the standard lib, acutally 16:42:35 that particular operation is beloved of formal maths people 16:42:58 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:42:59 rsynnott: there are so many people being very surprised about so many things that are not in the Common Lisp standard. 16:43:02 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:04 Hmmm, I think it's going to be too much effort for the typing it saves 16:43:06 Thanks anyway 16:43:32 Dylan has both curry and rcurry 16:44:09 rsynnott: and there are so many people thinking the current standard is too large as it is. 16:44:16 beach: what kind of project management philosophy(ies) do you utilize? 16:44:40 ojno: indeed, in the general case (lambda (x) (> x 5)) is simple and concise enough (especially if you use pretty-lambdas) 16:44:41 bougyman: me? I am a professor, not a software developer. 16:44:44 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.45.123] has joined #lisp 16:44:59 beach: so you teach many different methodologies? 16:45:04 yeah. 16:45:16 i suppose as a teacher you can't show preference, but you must prefer one. 16:45:29 are even software developers required to utilise project management philosophies? 16:45:31 adeht: maybe I'm just having python withdrawal symptoms :D 16:45:44 I'm not exactly sure I could name one :) 16:45:56 rsynnott: in lean methodologies everyone utilizes the PM philosophy. 16:46:08 ojno: oh? what does python have there? 16:46:14 adeht: I don't think using pretty-lambda.el is a good idea, as it could trick you to belief you're farther away from some column limit than you actually are 16:46:32 bougyman: I tell my students that it depends on two parameters, the "type of product" (real-time, office application, viedo game) and the "development situation" (in-house, contractual, etc.) 16:46:34 believe even 16:46:38 tcr: I've come to the conclusion that column widths are not as important as they used to be 16:46:47 and also confuse you if you ever have to look at your source in somethuing other than your own emacs 16:46:58 hmm 16:47:07 adeht: I think they still are. But the limit should be increased to at least 90 columns, if not 100. 16:47:17 from experience, I can tell you that video games are developed with a sort of mad panic for about a year 16:47:29 there doesn't seem to be much methodology to it 16:47:32 beach: we disagree on that, i believe lean methodologies allow for more productivity regardless of the product or development situation. 16:47:40 *_3b* still like 80col 16:47:58 the toyota way certainly proves lean methodologies work on the largest of scale. 16:47:58 rsynnott: well, the purpose is only partly to describe reality, and mostly to make recommendations. 16:47:59 adeht: exactly the same but without the brackets, "lambda x: x < 5" :P 16:48:01 what does lean methodology mean? 16:48:13 <_3b> though even 80 col is a bit wider than i'd really prefer on 100dpi displays :/ 16:48:20 tcr: I still oblige with the 80, and the average much lower, though I suppose there are those rare >80 cases due to pretty-lambdas 16:48:28 bougyman: oh yeah? So you would use XP for control systems of nuclear power plants? 16:48:35 rsynnott: tom and mary poppendeik, came from the Toyota Way of process management. 16:48:51 beach: that has actually happened, I believe 16:48:51 beach: no, XP is agile but not necessarily lean. 16:49:08 though an XP zealot will tell you "sure, we can do a nuclear plant" 16:49:14 I would use all the formal methods I could afford for those systems. 16:49:20 (dubious software used for controlling non-essential systems; caused an emergency shutdown in one of the TVA plants a while back) 16:49:30 beach: they tend to do so for the safety-critical stuff 16:49:31 lean is not an informal method. 16:49:35 adeht: What's your opinion about the :macro-char vs. :macro-chars issue? 16:49:43 six-sigma even has a lean standard now. 16:49:53 tomsw [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 16:49:59 rsynnott: that's exactly my message: it depends on the kind of stuff you want to write! 16:50:01 but for the non-essential things like waste water pumps, they often use cheap-and-dodgy software 16:50:14 Lisp in 80 col is difficult, I think. 16:50:17 of course, failure in those things will still generally cause a massively expensive shutdown 16:50:20 tcr: the former.. :macro-char sounds more like a type than :macro-chars 16:50:23 what does this do: (defmethod foo or (arg1 arg2 arg3) ... ) 16:50:43 (the TVA shutdown was caused by a naughty pump controller flooding its ethernet with random crap) 16:50:46 probably for booleans, tomsw. 16:50:49 adeht: That is true, but I find it looks awkward reading the actual (with-readtable-iterator ... form 16:50:52 all of the lean software methodologies have test-first at their base, as a formality i think that's an important one. 16:51:05 hey, where is my Keene? *search* 16:51:12 they apparently wrote their own network stack for it, or something 16:51:15 whether BDD/TDD or AOP. 16:51:27 *beach* hands tic one of his copies 16:51:53 tic: don't have a copy of Keene, yet 16:52:11 bougyman: testing is sometimes not enough. 16:52:26 is Keene's book any good? 16:52:32 bougyman: and I have to take that into account in my course. 16:52:35 rsynnott: yes 16:52:36 I keep seeing it mentioned, but have never read it 16:52:37 beach, thanks. I found mine by the bed, thought it was in one of my Billies. 16:52:37 testing is certainly not a replacement for clear and critical reasoning 16:52:43 does it cover MOP? 16:52:50 rsynnott, nopes. 16:52:54 ah 16:52:55 tic: Ah, IKEA terminology? 16:52:59 beach, indeed! 16:53:00 *rsynnott* must get a copy of AMOP 16:53:13 must of what I currently know is gleaned from looking at libs which use MOP 16:53:23 tcr: then you could change the name `macro-char-types'.. I'm not sure to what though 16:53:25 rsynnott, you should get a copy of both books. Start reading the Keene book (it's really well-written!), and you'll know when to start read The AMOP. 16:53:27 tic: It might interest you that they didn't translate or modify the name in IKEA France. 16:53:59 bougyman: TDD is not a substitute for formal methods when they are really needed. at all. 16:54:02 so how would an "or" specialised method behave? 16:54:13 tomsw: like "or" 16:54:27 tomsw, return a generalized boolean. 16:54:38 beach, that's interesting indeed, seeing how everything in French gets translated. 16:54:41 tomsw: the applicable methods are called until one returns true. 16:54:54 bougyman: it can defer the use of formal methods in cases where it would be nice to have more reliable software but it's not as critical 16:54:58 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:03 tic: yeah, IKEA did the opposite: play the Swedish card all the way. 16:55:18 tcr: w-p-r has :internal :external :inherited, not :internal-symbol etc. analogously, you could have :dispatch :non-dispatch 16:55:32 beach: thanks 16:55:43 tic: in addition, at IKEA France you can get nice things like Norrlands beer and Aquavit. 16:55:54 tomsw: anytime 16:56:06 adeht: Could you post a short note about that to the mailing list, please? 16:56:24 they're finally opening one here, after assuring the government that they were a nice responsible company and not walmart 16:56:25 tcr: I'll have to think about it a little more 16:56:32 I'm quite excited :) 16:56:41 tic: the French flock to the lunch restaurant for meatballs and salmon. 16:56:42 (very large shops are generally illegal here) 16:56:45 the contrast between IKEA and Volvo is sort of weird as an outsider 16:56:53 rsynnott: where's here? 16:56:56 Ireland 16:57:12 rsynnott: did they have to promise not to sell condoms? 16:57:27 rsynnott: ah, you have zoning nazis 16:57:45 beach: I love Kottbular, too! 16:57:49 beach: no, no, as of 15 years ago we're allowed do that :) 16:58:02 rsynnott: ah, I might visit Ireland then. :) 16:58:08 Adamant: yep; I'm not convinced it's a bad thing 16:58:12 beach, that good quality? wow. 16:58:32 rsynnott: it's sort of an admission that people would go to the store. 16:58:32 *user___* comes back when the irc repl doesnt contain nazi anymore 16:58:36 -!- user___ [n=user@p54923CE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:58:42 beach: we've finally gotten rid of most of our silly laws from the scary-catholic era 16:58:47 mmm köttbullar.. 16:58:52 tic: they make an effort to satisfy the French market, which is pretty hard. 16:58:59 beach, I can imagine so. 16:59:12 user__ - I'm mostly being ironic 16:59:34 rsynnott: I'll tell my wife. That way we can make Ireland a vacation destination in the near future. 16:59:40 Karpar [i=karpar@2001:da8:200:900e:0:5efe:7dd9:f6d9] has joined #lisp 16:59:44 *tic* only eats eggs at the moment, though.. 17:00:34 -!- __name__ [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:00:37 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@198.49.81.62] has quit [Success] 17:00:57 flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has joined #lisp 17:01:22 Adamant: what kinds of formal methods? 17:01:48 bougyman: the kind that prove as much correctness as you can afford and require 17:01:54 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 17:01:56 test-first (via TDD/BDD/AOP) is only one of the formalities, it's not the whole harness. 17:01:59 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.163.228] has joined #lisp 17:02:03 ah 17:02:05 Adamant: i meant which ones. 17:02:07 then it's fine 17:02:26 CSP is out there 17:02:36 Continuous integration complements the initial TDD/BDD/AOP specifications. 17:03:27 booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:45 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:05:01 shortsightedsid [n=chatzill@122.167.142.151] has joined #lisp 17:05:16 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@154.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:05:21 continuous integration is analagous to CSP. 17:06:56 user__ [n=user@p54923CE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:13 communicating sequential processes? 17:08:27 yes. 17:08:53 methinks you're all on drugs. 17:09:17 not until the weekend starts. 17:09:21 -!- shortsightedsid [n=chatzill@122.167.142.151] has left #lisp 17:09:58 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:10:01 tcr pasted "WITH-READTABLE-ITERATOR test case" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67864 17:10:08 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:10:17 adeht: Does your implementation of W-R-I return T for that one? 17:10:22 S11001001: Does yours? 17:10:59 Dinner, I'll be back later. 17:12:07 is there any equivalent to python's range() in common lisp? i.e. (range n) => (0 1 2 ... n-1), (range x y) => (x x+1 x+2 ... y-2 y-1) ? 17:12:21 tcr: what is the first char in the list? did you intend for it to be #\Space ? 17:12:26 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:12:40 ojno: LOOP can be used for that 17:12:43 adeht: Yes. That is required to be bound to some function that signals an error, as per the spec. 17:12:44 ojno: (loop for i from x to y collect i) ? 17:12:54 ojno: (defun range (n) (loop for i upto n collect i)) 17:13:07 though in python I believe the major use for that is to fake for loops, anyway? 17:13:14 rsynnott: that's xrange! 17:13:17 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:22 in which case you might like series :D 17:13:28 Xach: only if you have a newish python :) 17:13:37 adeht: clhs 2.4.8.21 17:13:46 rsynnott: "new" in the Lisp sense of the last 10 years? 17:13:57 like "CLOS is a new part of Lisp" 17:14:00 rsynnott: ... maybe. :P 17:14:14 "the condition system might not catch on, so its CLOS integration is spotty" 17:14:28 tcr: I asked that because I see only a single space between the "#\" and "#\<" 17:14:44 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:14:48 adeht: It's supposed to be #\Space 17:15:13 adeht: Probably some stupid space munling introduced by copy&paste 17:15:14 ojno: i posted a more full-featured one a few days ago on lisppaste 17:15:33 mangling, I mean 17:15:46 Is there a python to lisp idiom guide anywhere? I shouldn't bother you with all this stuff, but couldn't find one using google... 17:15:58 ojno: http://paste.lisp.org/display/67468 17:15:58 Xach/rsynott: basically iota, no? 17:16:03 try norvig's 17:16:08 ojno: That function is commonly called IOTA (the name comes from APL); it's included in Alexandria, too. 17:16:12 why, yes!: http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html 17:16:34 ojno: i recommend just learning lisp on its own instead of trying to find compatibility points from python. 17:16:34 -!- nunb [n=user@213-140-17-106.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:54 tcr: returns nil here 17:16:55 Hun: what do you use that for? 17:17:00 ojno: the closest (and most efficient) is probably (scan-range :from x :below y) from series 17:17:24 hefner: nothing yet. but i used that for some complicated stuff in python and included it in my utilities :) 17:17:25 adeht: Then take the set-equal out, and show me what (next-entry) returns, please. 17:18:09 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 17:19:36 adeht annotated #67864 with "subchars" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67864#1 17:20:11 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has quit ["((lambda (lambda) `(,lambda ',lambda)) `(lambda (lambda) `(,lambda ',lambda)))"] 17:20:53 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.163.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:29 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.247.195.116] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:01 adeht: That's non-conformant. Clisp can use that stuff in their initial readtable, but not in what (copy-readtable nil) returns 17:22:10 the reader macros for #", #Y, and #\, 17:22:14 tcr: this is both with -ansi and without 17:23:44 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:50 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:25:19 adeht: Right, look at orig_readtable() in io.d 17:25:22 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 17:26:06 adeht: Should not be hard to make it do the right thing. 17:26:11 milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.147] has joined #lisp 17:26:18 right 17:26:50 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 17:26:53 basically, have orig_readtable return a standard-readtable, then make *readtable* in init_reader = orig_readtable + #", #Y, #\, 17:27:53 yes, add an init_readtable function and call that instead 17:28:19 replor__ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:29:30 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["eaten by grue"] 17:29:36 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-61-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:29:58 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:09 tcr: did you write a test-suite for w-r-i ? 17:31:02 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:33:22 replor___ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:33:42 Any way to specialize eql (used as a specialized in defmethod) to a given class? 17:33:51 specializer* 17:35:44 mhooo: it's likely that your design is bad if you want it 17:35:54 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 17:36:59 That is a possibility. 17:37:09 Though I really don't care about that :) 17:37:32 At least not 1 month into lisp. 17:37:57 using a new language excludes you from having to know how to program? ;) 17:38:39 what are you actually trying to do? 17:38:49 also, did you mean something like (defmethod foo ((class (eql (find-class 'bar)))) ...) ? 17:38:51 ojno: saving typing is not such a win. But I understand you concern about lambda, for reading it. I configure my emacs so that it displays as: ( (x) (< x 3)) 17:39:09 -!- pjb- is now known as pjb 17:39:25 adeht: that's how i read it 17:39:31 pjb: pretty-lambda was mentioned, but recommended against. 17:39:40 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A2764C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:39:45 jrockway: Yes, for now I'd like to get it to run, otherwise I won't be motivated to continue :) 17:39:48 it's a slippery slope down to (defmethod add ((x (eql 2))(y (eql 2))) 4) 17:40:16 pjb: do you make λ a wrapper too? 17:40:20 pjb-: how'd you do that? 17:40:23 MHOOO: still not sure what you're doing, but you just need to wrap your value in a class 17:40:24 ojno: actually, my code does it for all the greek letters :-) 17:40:39 salex: no, it's only a display facility. I still type lambda in extenso. 17:41:03 adeht: I meant somethind like: (defmethod foo ((class (eql (find-class 'bar)))) ...), where class is compared to 'bar depending on the slots (which have possibly different values) of class 17:41:22 pjb: yeah, there's pretty-greek, but it's too much, substituting for symbols anywhere 17:41:24 ah ok. i kind of like it in the source code. easy enough to map it to ascii if/when needed too 17:41:28 fisxoj: have a look at pretty-greek in http://darcs.informatimago.com/darcs/emacs/pjb-sources.el 17:41:42 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:41:59 i think i prefer that appraoch to behind-the-scenes stuff 17:42:24 (like you describe) 17:42:31 mhooo: I'm not sure I understand what you're after 17:42:42 same 17:42:45 adeht: No I didn't, but I'm considering writing a few cases. But it's hard to come up with really portable test cases. 17:42:49 method dispatch != (cond) 17:43:14 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:47 tcr: it doesn't have to be exhaustive 17:44:35 MHOOO: (defmethod foo ((class bar)) (with-slots (quux) class (cond ((eql quux 42) ... 17:44:56 ivarrefsdal [n=ivarrefs@sos1-1x-dhcp072.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 17:45:13 adeht: I understand eql as an operator==. What I want, is that a particularly specialized instance of foo is only called when class== 17:46:09 lispm [n=joswig@e177158143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:46:15 mhooo: since we're into programming language analogies.. eql is more like &a == &b, i.e. test for identity. 17:46:22 make a subclass 17:46:25 and specialize on that 17:46:37 or... just test for the inside the method 17:46:55 mhooo: that's what eql specializers are for, then. 17:47:02 adeht: Yeah, well - identity is not what I want. Which is why I'd like to "overload" eql. 17:47:12 *Xach* boggles 17:47:38 mhooo: please read Kent Pitman's article about equal and its friends 17:48:21 "EQUAL rights--and wrongs--in Lisp" ? 17:48:21 MHOOO: your design seems not very object-oriented. why do you insist on using OO mechanisms for it? 17:48:30 mhooo: yes. 17:48:38 adeht: k, will do. 17:48:57 when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. common lisp gives you a whole *bag* of hammers! 17:49:09 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 17:49:10 and screwdrivers. 17:49:24 Speaking of eql ... did anyone read the Baker equality paper after Rich mentioned it? 17:49:26 and duct tape :) 17:49:28 I'm looking for it now. 17:49:31 and double-ended screwdriver/hammers. 17:49:46 A double-ended hammer. That's a man's tool! 17:49:50 with a few sharp blades thrown in the corners , just to make getting things out of the bag interesting. 17:49:54 xach: when all you have is a hammer, you don't have problems, unless they are eql to that hammer 17:50:11 michaelw: It is object oriented, in that I want to specialize the method foo depending on classes (multiple dispatch really) - and at the same time I want to dispatch based on the *contents* of a class/variable which is also a parameter to the method. 17:50:32 Xach: so is that where `dumb as a bag of hammers' came from? 17:50:49 ;) 17:51:19 schme: this is a man's tool: http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/tools/8b97/ 17:51:26 mhooo: there's a predicate dispatch paper 17:51:27 -!- replor__ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:41 sellout: , this one? 17:51:42 MHOOO: Lemme see if I got this right. You want to specialise on class foo. and also on whatever some slot in the class is bound to? 17:51:42 mhooo: that's very different from eql specializers 17:51:47 michaelw: I think so. 17:51:56 That's the one I found anyway :) 17:52:04 schme: Yes, basically the values of the class. 17:52:04 pjb: My god, that's crazy. 17:52:09 ;-) 17:52:14 pjb: no no no. That's a nerds tool. 17:52:15 pjb: I see no use for it whatsoever, but I *do* want one. 17:52:17 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:31 stupid cut-n-paste. 17:52:41 schme: I hardly see how one could use it, without hurting oneself... 17:52:43 MHOOO: Ok. Now I understand the issue, and I wish you the best of luck :) 17:52:46 http://www.toolfetch.com/Category/Masonry_Saws/Cut_Off_Saws/968339102.htm?utm_source=&utm_medium=GS&utm_campaign=toolfetch&cm_ite= 17:52:54 *that* is what's called a `mans tool' ;) 17:53:08 ok. 17:53:11 yes, I have to have that knife. 17:53:21 lets stop posting links to "mans tool" before we get penises. 17:53:22 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 17:53:24 michaelw: At Boston Lisp, Rich explained why he didn't have a ton of equalities, and he asked if anyone read this paper, and I think no one had, which surprised me (because I feel like all these Lispers generally have a ton of references to drop on any issue). 17:53:25 heh 17:53:35 " mhooo: that's very different from eql specializers" What is? 17:53:39 sellout: too bad I wasn't there :) 17:53:56 sellout: :) 17:54:18 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:54:31 sellout: I read that paper a year ago or so.. but I didn't see it as something conflicting with Pitman's 17:54:43 hrm. i found a bdd library, but it's for elisp. 17:54:45 MHOOO: Normally you'd specialise on a class and maybe a specific instance.. what you want sounds more like what jrockway suggested with the COND and all. 17:54:56 doesn't look to be hard to move it to cl from elisp. 17:55:10 michaelw: I remember reading your post (now that I see it), but I didn't follow through to the paper then. 17:55:12 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d78e7a50c1059747] has joined #lisp 17:55:13 mhooo: you seem to want something like http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/dynlangs/Talks/clos-pred.htm 17:55:18 bougyman: if you declared all the variables special, it could even be rather easy. 17:55:30 pjb: i dunno what you mean 17:55:38 http://github.com/technomancy/dotfiles/tree/master/.emacs.d/behave/behave.el 17:55:43 emacs lisp has no lexical variables. Only special variables. 17:55:48 Is there a simple loop construct to loop over several dimensions? Mixing say 1 to 3 as (1 1), (1 2) (1 3) etc. 17:56:19 (Not like (loop for a from 1 to 5 collect (loop for b from 1 to 5 collect (list a b)))) 17:56:31 adeht: Sounds about right. Basically its dispatching not only based on the class, but also based on the contents of a variable (predicates). 17:56:33 ivarrefsdal: that's a nested loop by nature 17:56:42 ivarrefsdal: why not? (loop for a from 1 to 5 nconc (loop for b from 1 to 5 collect (list a b))) 17:56:53 MHOOO: duct typing based on slots? 17:56:53 notice nconc (or append) 17:56:57 er slot values, even. 17:57:10 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:57:14 salex: hmm ok I guess 17:57:17 mhooo: well, the paper contains an implementation, iirc, though there ought to be efficiency issues 17:57:24 ivarrefsdal: sorry, i may have misread you 17:57:29 schme: The COND thing I did not really understand. Furthermore I didn't see it being specilized on the contents of the parameters. 17:57:30 are you trying to avoid nesting loops 17:57:36 yes 17:57:39 or do you just not like the form it put it in? 17:57:53 bougyman: Err, duct taping? 17:57:58 avoiding nesting loops is impossible at some level 17:57:59 well, just avoiding nesting I guess 17:58:08 because what you are doing is nested 17:58:15 so you'll do it implicitly or explicity 17:58:19 MHOOO: It's not specialised on the contents. It's specialised on the class, and then you extract the slots you want, and do different stuff depending on the contents after the dispatchery. 17:58:22 ivarrefsdal: (loop for i from 0 below (* n m) collect (multiple-value-list (truncate i m))) 17:58:26 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:58:28 salex: here's the erlang code I wrote: http://ivarref.at.ifi.uio.no/vs.txt (I think it looks nice) 17:58:28 adeht: I'll take a look at the paper, thanks for the link. 17:58:34 what don't you like about pjb's loop? 17:59:03 ivarrefsdal: (let ((n 3) (m 4)) (loop for i from 0 below (* n m) collect (multiple-value-list (truncate i m)))) --> ((0 0) (0 1) (0 2) (0 3) (1 0) (1 1) (1 2) (1 3) (2 0) (2 1) (2 2) (2 3)) 17:59:17 pjb: aha, funky :) 17:59:21 ivarrefsdal: but notice that a division is much more costly than another loop. 17:59:28 yeah True 17:59:43 MHOOO: It's not a normal CLOS thing to do what you want, and as someone mentioned it is not so very "OO". But I wish you the best of luck with your crazy idea there, I'm all for crazy ideas :) 17:59:46 So my best choice is to just unroll the nesting if I want things pretty 17:59:55 schme: Yeah, but I'd like to execute a body which the user specifies, so I can't just do it inside one generic function. I need access to the body which the user specified - so I figured I might just define a generic method which specializes on the parameters and then executes the user-specified body. 18:00:00 ivarrefsdal: ? 18:00:16 -!- replor___ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:00:29 MHOOO: duct typing, making a decision based on the behavior of an object rather than its identity. 18:00:38 fg 18:00:40 MHOOO: Where is this body specified though? 18:00:49 pjb: Say I want X levels. Then I would need X-1 nested (loop things) inside the first loop? 18:00:56 heh. duct typing? 18:00:58 MHOOO: You might want to write a new object system ;) 18:00:59 MHOOO: you only expect that the object _does_ X and Y, you don't care what the object itself is (in duct-typing) 18:01:05 uh. duck typing. 18:01:05 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:01:11 ("pretty" is subjective of course) 18:01:14 schme: I think that totally depends on whether you see multiple dispatch as an OO principle. In the end, its just specializing on some data. And a different class is nothing but different data. 18:01:14 duck typing, yeah. 18:01:16 bougyman: more like state of object, not its behavior.. you map the state to behavior 18:01:22 ivarrefsdal: yes. But if the depths varies at run-time you need another algorithm. 18:01:26 i dunno why I always type duct. 18:01:30 yes true 18:01:38 adeht: in some languages those things are not separate. 18:01:41 because of duct tape? 18:01:47 schme: The body is specified through a macro in the code. 18:01:52 ivarrefsdal: so you're finding constraints. you could make a macro that creates the loops for you in an efficient way. You doul have it prune the search (not like code you have linked), too 18:01:53 it's a pun gone misspelling gone mainstream (: 18:01:55 *hefner* never liked the term "duck typing" 18:02:01 I still don't (: 18:02:04 i.e., in ruby an objects' state and behavior are inseperable. 18:02:06 nor I. 18:02:07 bougyman: it doesn't have much to do with programming languages :) 18:02:08 of course, that assumes you know how many levels 18:02:13 when you expand the macro 18:02:28 MHOOO: But the general idea is to do stuff depending on class, and not depending on data, no? But we can call it all OO, I don't mind. :) I seriously think you might want to remodel your code though, it sounds less painful than doing what you want :) 18:02:29 if you don't you can build state to do it 18:02:30 bougyman: Okey, I get the duct taping thing. 18:02:37 ivarrefsdal: see for example arrangement-with-repeat in http://darcs.informatimago.com/darcs/lisp/common-lisp/combination.lisp 18:02:43 salex: True true :-) It could beat all the other approaches (kinda) 18:03:28 schme: Oh well, I'll read through the papers linked by adeht and see whether maybe I can come up with something different. 18:03:39 ivarrefsdal: and rloop in http://darcs.informatimago.com/darcs/emacs/pjb-emacs.el 18:03:45 ivarrefsdal: but this is the strength. It is in some sense not interesting to make something as trivial as nesting loops simpler; more interesting to make it easier to generalize 18:03:53 MHOOO: Maybe just dump that there function body in some slot :) 18:03:58 salex: Well I don't really want to tune the search to be honest as the point is just to see how the language is performing "by default" 18:04:01 MHOOO: Good luck anyway! 18:04:07 Thank you :) 18:04:53 ivarrefsdal: sure, but then how `nice' it is is less interesting. 18:05:08 well, a little bit 18:05:38 it's just trivial fun, nothing serious 18:06:05 pjb: thanks for links :) 18:07:33 salex: by generalize you mean to generalize to X levels and possible some Y solutions? 18:08:37 asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:35 ivarrefsdal: writing a Miranda-esque collect macro is not all that hard (though more low-level than what pjb proposed) 18:09:57 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 18:10:21 ivarrefsdal: yes, and/or runtime information 18:12:08 salex: okey, sounds pretty nice (although my lisp skills are not that strong) 18:12:38 what is better: absence of documentation, or documentation written in a bad english? 18:12:53 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-8d5f7b0413b539a4] has joined #lisp 18:13:11 absence :) 18:13:27 nah, docs of any sort can be useful 18:13:31 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has joined #lisp 18:13:57 um 18:14:13 I meant to say the other thing, honest 18:14:15 rsynnott: then i'll write it in russian 18:14:18 michaelw: hm, maybe I will try 18:14:28 stassats`: sounds like nginx 18:14:40 docs are a cop-out for people who are afraid to read the code! 18:14:40 -!- flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:15:53 how about German documentation like in CLISP ;-) 18:16:24 heheh 18:16:49 stassats`: in any case, your English seems to be at least as good as the average native speaker's 18:16:52 lispm: neither german not russian would scare me off ;P 18:17:09 -!- asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:17:13 (English speakers have low expectations, because so many native speakers can barely speak it at all) 18:17:25 michealw, you are from where? 18:17:26 (See any speech by Sarah Palin if you do not believe me) 18:17:35 betcha! 18:17:36 ;-) 18:18:13 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:18:49 okflo [n=user@62-47-184-117.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:19:05 *stassats`* learned german at school, though i can barely speak in it now, it's suitable to read clisp's comments 18:19:33 in german, everything sounds like a declaration of war 18:19:34 clisp's comments have been translated long ago. 18:20:48 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:53 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:20:53 ooh, bloody horrible computers keeping me in work late 18:21:32 -!- tomsw [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:21:38 I always wondered why there was no german language mode in CLISP for the symbols of Lisp 18:22:02 doesn't it accept UTF-8 source files now? 18:22:04 ouch 18:22:14 rsynnott: yes, for a long time it has. 18:22:52 (definiere-funktion haupt-funktion (zahl) (when (größer-p zahl 42) (drucke "hallo" *standard-ausgabe*))) 18:23:11 when? 18:23:26 wenn? 18:23:27 wenn 18:23:44 falls > wenn 18:23:48 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:23:52 Venn. 18:24:49 lispm: well, this would not be CL. Otherwise, trying to do it as a layer over CL is easy for functions and macros, but poses some problems with variables and constants. 18:24:59 Notably keywords. 18:25:16 ISO CL 18:25:45 it's not like switch is translated in c++ (is it?) 18:25:50 AppleScript has (had?) this feature, it could translate source code depending on the OS language 18:25:57 so did access 18:26:02 madness, if you ask me :) 18:26:07 just set the symbol value of the german keywords to be the same as the expected english keywords, right? :) 18:26:18 foom: :-) 18:26:22 a few symbol-macros 18:26:29 xcintas [n=xcintasa@gw-lt-s1.bt.ktu.lt] has joined #lisp 18:26:59 lispm: what's with specials? 18:27:22 -!- MHOOO [n=yeh@3-023.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["Check out me Blog at mhooo.mirrormoon.org !"] 18:27:24 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbb149.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 18:27:25 MHOOO [n=yeh@3-023.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:27:43 hmm 18:28:04 dkcl [n=dan@67.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:29:29 (schlingen für k als die Prüftabelleschüsseln in h unter Einsatz von (Prüftabellegröße k) ...) XD 18:29:32 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 18:29:43 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD38EA9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:30:06 war das die Google-Übersetzung? 18:30:10 -!- H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:30:25 Nein, das war meine Übersetzung. :P 18:30:43 asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:59 auf englisch svp 18:31:11 Ich weiß nicht, was hashtable, hashkey, etc, auf Deutsch ist 18:31:27 flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has joined #lisp 18:31:31 Xach wird schon nervös 18:31:37 *dlowe* chuckles. svp? 18:32:03 -!- flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:32:16 what, there's no german for 'hashtable'? :) 18:32:20 sind Sie Deutsch, lispm? 18:32:22 who asked for the german lisp channel? 18:32:24 flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has joined #lisp 18:32:48 rsynnott: german is not my first language :P 18:33:22 ojno, ja 18:33:55 for the german readers, there is a german introduction to computer science using Lisp that 18:34:05 uses german words for the concepts 18:34:06 someone in whatever body is in charge of the Irish language decided it'd be a good idea to make up lots of computery terms, for some reason :) 18:34:15 what format-directive emits a \t? 18:34:20 rsynnott: i once read "streuwerttabelle" ;-) 18:34:31 lispm: i have a german SICP. worst mistake ever. 18:34:42 the author writes about 'die lineare Flechte' -> verkettete Liste 18:34:54 he uses a lot of interesting words 18:35:11 actually I tend to like that book 18:35:23 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:35:40 michaelw: I have a german ANSI CL - Paul Grahams book 18:35:51 okay, you win :) 18:35:55 is it true that paul graham is a vimmer? 18:36:41 michaelw: not really, I guess your german SICP is better 18:37:21 nm found it 18:37:35 btw., I saw that there is a torrent for 'Lisp Lore: A guide to programming the Lisp Machine' if anyone is interested 18:37:59 lispm: where ? 18:38:10 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:38:15 search the usual torrent sites 18:38:46 okflo` [n=user@62-47-184-117.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:38:48 lispm: the guy that translated that book was my mentor 2 years ago :) 18:38:52 it is a large PDF made of copied files 18:38:59 ansi cl 18:39:24 Hun: I know him from conversations 18:39:37 it is some time ago, though 18:40:06 -!- flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:24 flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has joined #lisp 18:40:51 fe[nl]ix, let me know if you need help finding it 18:41:23 Bob|Newcomp [n=chatzill@mask247.ups.edu] has joined #lisp 18:41:27 -!- Bob|Newcomp [n=chatzill@mask247.ups.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:41:51 -!- okflo` [n=user@62-47-184-117.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:42:03 lispm: I found it 18:42:08 :-) 18:42:35 there seems to be lots of interest in Lisp these days, it is amazing 18:42:52 lots of people were downloading the Norvig/Pitmap style guide 18:43:06 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:43:34 lispm: he started a new company bout 2 months ago. haven't heard from him since. nothing public yet :) 18:44:04 lispm: perhaps the novelty has finally worn off java :) 18:44:05 lispm: i hope to encourage that. 18:44:07 I have a page about the Lisp-like Dylan which was mentioned on Reddit AND news.ycombinator.com - lots of traffic from thre 18:44:15 lots of traffic 18:44:18 kreuter: ping 18:44:19 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46DCA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:28 tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:44:31 lispm: one of 'em was me :) 18:44:31 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbdd59.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:34 Hun: what was his name 18:44:48 stefan landvogt 18:44:57 fe[nl]ix: there were some thousand others... 18:45:10 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d78e7a50c1059747] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 18:45:11 before that, he used to work for equinux 18:45:15 Hun: was he also working for izware some time? was it him? 18:45:34 lispm: Norvig told me (in August) that he asked his publisher if he could put an online version of PAIP text, and is waiting for a reply. 18:45:48 don't know that. but i sure learned a lot from him 18:45:57 adeht: that would be very welcome. 18:46:00 publishers seem to be getting nicer about such things of late 18:46:17 it's almost as if they are willing to forego the massive revenues of a lisp title to benefit the lisp community 18:46:18 are PCL, keene's and AMOP adequate prerequisites to PAIP? 18:46:31 bougyman: PAIP is an introduction to Lisp on its own. 18:46:32 Hun: I think Stefan wrote the new user interface for the Mirai 3d modeller 18:46:41 bougyman: yes 18:46:41 bougyman: I don't remember if it delves much into CLOS, though. 18:46:48 Hun: at least he worked on that 18:46:53 Xach: not much 18:46:57 Xach: well that's the order i'm tackling them. 18:47:01 bougyman: I was reading PAIP and PCL at the same time, I was completely new to Lisp then. 18:47:01 -!- flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:47:02 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B444.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:47:17 i was wondering what to get once i'm done with PCL, keenes (both done) and AMOP (in-progress) 18:47:18 adeht: that would be very cool 18:47:23 bougyman: but PCL is not really a prerequisite 18:47:38 AMOP does not help for PAIP 18:47:55 though AMOP helps you to get near Nirvana ;-) 18:48:05 any reason to get ANSI lisp once i've completed the above and PAIP? 18:48:21 bougyman: how about On Lisp? 18:48:23 bougyman: there's also On Lisp 18:48:25 not really 18:48:29 bougyman: completeness, i suppose. 18:48:38 yeah, i heard on-lisp was like 600 pages of macro-fu. 18:48:47 true 18:48:47 i'm saving that one for a vacation week. 18:49:01 bougyman: 600? I remember it being like 300 or so. 18:49:24 adeht: i've not seen it yet, but even so that's one i'd like to have a lot of free-hack time to spare. 18:49:49 On Lisp is available as a PDF for download, btw. 18:50:04 bougyman: it's simpler than PAIP, imho 18:50:10 i have a really hard time reading texts like that on a monitor. 18:50:34 i did the first couple runs of PCL on a web browser and didn't get near as much out of it as the third time with the dead tree version. 18:50:42 [Head|Rest] [n=jap@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 18:51:24 plus i like spending money to support the authors, and cl in general. 18:53:25 not publisher? 18:54:18 -!- rickardg [n=user@c-e51ae455.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:54:26 -!- okflo [n=user@62-47-184-117.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:42 bougyman: I agree with reading paper vs electronic, but as far as supporting the author, just mail him a check for the full amount then :) 18:55:58 Ijeroj [n=yeh@u-4-124.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:56:46 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E444EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:56:52 -!- ivarrefsdal [n=ivarrefs@sos1-1x-dhcp072.studby.uio.no] has quit [] 18:57:42 edi weitz uses some e-paper reader 18:59:52 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 19:00:19 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:22 tcr: NIL 19:00:51 -!- xcintas [n=xcintasa@gw-lt-s1.bt.ktu.lt] has quit [] 19:01:01 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:01:20 *user__* likes to read long documents with dark pdf-reader background colors ("accessibility options") 19:01:45 flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has joined #lisp 19:02:02 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 19:02:30 -!- flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:03:08 S11001001 annotated #67864 with "ccl subchars" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67864#2 19:03:12 -!- abkhazia [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has quit [Success] 19:03:57 I printed On Lisp at Lulu.com. 19:04:10 H4ns [n=hans@m1f5a36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:28 I was at JAOO the other day. I saw a demo of Microsofts F#. Would you like to guess at how much was "shared" from Lisp? :-) 19:05:03 brill: Well, it's OCaml, no? 19:05:28 Yeah, MS O'Caml. 19:05:29 flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has joined #lisp 19:05:45 Yeah. So they say. But so much of the syntax was easily recognizable as Lisp decendant. 19:06:02 can it manipulate its code as data? 19:06:04 sharing is safe in a functional language 19:06:04 Even the REPL at Visual Studio. :-) 19:06:27 Sharing in the sense of nicked. :-) 19:06:38 Stolen. High-jacked. 19:06:54 From O'Caml, yes. 19:07:10 I felt like someone from the rebel alliance at a stormtrooper meeting. 19:07:12 brill: Perhaps you're thinking of Petit Larceny? ;) 19:07:13 excellent. maybe they'll make something that doesn't suck 19:07:46 dlowe: There's a small hope in that, yes. 19:07:50 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 19:08:09 sellout: I'm thinking grand larceny. 19:08:23 why does ~T emit blanks rather then a 'real' \t? 19:08:24 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:08:25 However, this isn't a war, and nothing was stolen. 19:08:28 # 19:08:28 # 19:08:29 a foundational simplicity with similar roots to Scheme, 19:08:34 http://research.microsoft.com/fsharp/fsharp.aspx 19:08:39 sorry about the two # 19:08:49 brill: The joke is that Petit Larceny is the name of a Scheme implementation. 19:08:56 slash_: the meaning of a "real \t" is not well defined 19:09:15 -!- Karpar [i=karpar@2001:da8:200:900e:0:5efe:7dd9:f6d9] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:09:15 -!- flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:21 Microsoft has also another new language that seems to take something from Lisp 19:09:22 H4ns: it's the octet #x09 19:09:25 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:26 ok i i define \t as in C 19:09:36 Hence, stealing from Lisp ... although the .Net version is Common Larceny, but that's not as funny 19:09:38 flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has joined #lisp 19:09:42 dlowe: i did not say "the representation is not well defined" 19:10:06 http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Windows/The-Origins-of-Microsofts-Oslo-Software-Modeling-Platform/1/ 19:10:06 slash_: that is the way to go if you want exactly the tab character and don't care about non-ascii character sets 19:10:36 The language for 'Oslo' is D. 19:10:39 'The ML functional programming language was another influence, he said, as was LISP.' 19:10:48 And then I went to a lecture on Fortress by Steele. Really interesting. 19:11:07 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178017050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:11:14 lurcio [n=marc@itsnotnormal.plus.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:48 brill: I thought Fortress kind of stalled? 19:11:48 heh, based on "TLA+" 19:11:51 -!- user__ [n=user@p54923CE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:12:12 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:12:26 lispm: Not according to Steele.They're even using utf-8 to good effect in Emacs. 19:12:40 They're displaying math as math. 19:12:55 *Riastradh* coughs. 19:13:02 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bc7317cbcd86265f] has joined #lisp 19:13:07 H4ns: you mean i should use \t? 19:13:08 They're using symbols from conventional mathematical notation. 19:13:30 -!- MHOOO [n=yeh@3-023.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:32 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-48-185.rev.numericable.fr] has left #lisp 19:13:37 That's very different from displaying formulae as one would see typeset in a published book or journal. 19:13:50 slash_: you could use ~C and #\tab and it would work mostly. 19:14:01 ok 19:14:02 Riastradh: Exactly. They're no longer forcing people to use notation meant for a keyboard. 19:14:41 so, anyone has an old APL keyboard lying around? ;) 19:14:48 You could choose the one best suited for the job. Just like mathmaticians do all the time. 19:14:50 The input method is a different subject entirely. But they're still just using sequential, line-oriented text. 19:14:59 ojno: :-) 19:15:00 turjo [n=fhs@pool-71-183-1-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:39 pjb [n=pjb@81-66-48-185.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:17:11 hmmm, I don't think even APL had blackboard bold in it... 19:18:36 DAPA seems to have dropped funding for Fortress though. 19:18:45 sorry: DARPA. 19:20:03 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085226.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 19:20:54 -!- Ijeroj is now known as MHOOO 19:21:17 brill: I guess SUN wanted to sell them some boxes with the JVM and Fortress 19:21:56 rofl, Visual APL.NET 19:22:06 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:34 lispm: Yeah. Something like that. 19:24:41 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47325.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:53 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:28:17 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 19:29:37 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:30:37 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:33:03 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@d515336D7.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 19:36:30 ojno: I haven't seen an APL keyboard for the past 30 years. Last time I used something similar to APL, I used J, which is fine with an ASCII keyboard. 19:37:02 -!- silenius [n=jl@p5B25CF85.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:37:48 *Xach* discovers to his distaste that some implementations warn about redefining functions in a different "place" even after the function in question has been fmakunbounded 19:38:19 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46DCA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:40:34 jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:53 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:48:09 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:22 -!- H4ns [n=hans@m1f5a36d0.tmodns.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:48:53 -!- MHOOO [n=yeh@u-4-124.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:51:18 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:51:31 does anyone have an idea what state the beagle mcclim backend is in? 19:51:38 should it load? 19:51:44 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:49 Tordek [n=tordek@host172.190-137-247.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:52:02 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:57:17 l_a_m_ [n=l_a_m@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:26 lispm: it /might/ load (: 19:58:36 lispm: I think it hasn't been tested in months 19:58:47 so if you try in recent CCL, it might or might not work 19:59:02 yeah, CCL changed a bit 19:59:24 I can remember that somebody fixed some errors a few months ago 19:59:57 davo [n=davo@ip68-6-224-17.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:58 I'm supposed to give a CLIM presentation end of the month for the Hamburg Lisp users and wonder what to show 20:00:09 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-48-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:00:37 -!- hmmmbird [n=antoine@196.211.3.106] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 20:06:32 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbb149.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:32 dudius [n=eu@189.71.20.96] has joined #lisp 20:07:49 algum brasileiro in here? 20:07:57 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:08:24 -!- trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-238-056.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:10:51 -!- tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2DCEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:11:14 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 20:11:32 oie 20:12:48 dudius: got a lisp question? 20:12:49 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:52 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bc7317cbcd86265f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:16:02 Boomer [n=browning@adsl-76-243-208-202.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:34 -!- Boomer is now known as Guest39741 20:17:17 -!- dudius [n=eu@189.71.20.96] has quit [] 20:18:08 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [] 20:19:46 -!- Guest39741 [n=browning@adsl-76-243-208-202.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:23:31 milosF [n=milos@92.36.154.192] has joined #lisp 20:23:56 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 20:24:04 -!- Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit ["leaving"] 20:26:34 S11001001: That's not conformant either, I think. 20:31:40 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.215.185] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:33:33 S11001001: I think, I may be reading too much into the spec 20:34:47 rpg_laptop [n=rpg@c-75-72-22-252.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:30 plutonas [n=plutonas@h-188-232.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:37:54 tcr: I think 2.1.1.3 says you are right. But one thing at a time :) 20:39:15 greased_boy [i=d8cde040@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8b00bb906120a239] has joined #lisp 20:40:17 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:41:10 -!- cky [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit ["Back in a bit"] 20:42:29 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-140-18.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:42:53 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:45:11 -!- flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:45:45 weird, somewhat OT question --- anyone know of org-links for CL code? I.e., a way to have org-mode links refer to defuns, defmethods and so on? Just a random question... 20:47:07 cky [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:47:44 -!- cky [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Success] 20:47:49 Ifur [n=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 20:48:35 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@74.5.120.137] has joined #lisp 20:49:32 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 20:50:56 -!- greased_boy [i=d8cde040@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8b00bb906120a239] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:50:57 has anyone been able to emerge amule with gcc-4.3.1 ? 20:51:08 oops, wrong channel :-/ sry 20:52:47 is anybody using the dev version of hunchentoot in production at the moment? 20:54:20 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:40 -!- sely__ [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:55:52 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.229.172] has joined #lisp 20:56:16 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-17.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:59:08 using the dev version in production :D 21:01:11 rsynnott: I am. it crashes after a couple weeks or so. 21:02:52 ooh-er 21:04:59 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 21:06:35 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:57 dkcl [n=dan@67.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:08:38 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:00 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 21:10:15 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:34 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.4] has joined #lisp 21:10:35 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:10:43 *rvirding* says hello everyone 21:13:37 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 21:14:20 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has quit [] 21:15:01 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host172.190-137-247.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 21:17:32 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:18:11 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:00 Tordek [n=tordek@host172.190-137-247.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:21:00 birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 21:21:38 hey rvirding 21:22:20 hi louis 21:24:17 rvirding, was the lack of static types from erlang mostly a historical thing due to the prolog heritage? 21:24:49 I should probably have asked in #erlang, heh 21:25:19 yes, our previous experience with declarative languages was dynamically typed, lisp and prolog 21:25:37 though we were all statically typed low-languages 21:25:42 low'level* 21:25:59 fortan, pascal an c 21:26:12 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:26:36 salex: it almost looks like we're using the null backend by default 21:26:49 can't spell tonight, fortran, pascal and c 21:27:06 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp419.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 21:27:46 rvirding, that would have been my guess as well. What you know dominates pretty much when chosing type discipline 21:28:13 interestingly, erlang also has optional type declarations of a sort 21:28:24 (do the type guards provide a performance improvement?) 21:28:48 and also the type systems around on functional languages in those days weren't so good 21:28:56 unintelligble error messages :-) 21:29:08 This is the point where I remind you that ML was from the 70's ;) 21:29:23 the optional type decl are for dialyzer and other type checkers 21:29:47 I know they are old 21:30:16 I don't think type guards generate much optimisation 21:30:19 Interestingly enough, you see a lot of research going on to get static and dynamic types to coexist peacefully 21:31:04 my view is i prefer dynamically typed languages but have nothing against checking tools of all sorts 21:31:09 It may happen as fallout from getting dependent types into languages like ML/Haskell 21:31:28 I seldom make type errors :-) 21:31:52 You don't have any type checking phase... how can you? 21:32:07 learning to type helps against type errors 21:32:26 boasting: first time I type checked lfe dialyzer found 2 type errors 21:32:40 *rvirding* cheers and looks triumphant 21:32:50 -!- lurcio [n=marc@itsnotnormal.plus.com] has quit [] 21:33:08 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:33:16 dialyzer is a separate tool you run on your code 21:33:20 well, I feel you need different approaches. For a dynamic language you can just start off with a vague idea and then hack it into shape 21:33:48 in fact, that's really useful 21:33:55 for a statically typed language, the hard part is getting the right type, then you just squeeze and shake until the code falls out 21:34:10 yes it is, it checks more than just types too 21:34:20 it's a nice tool 21:34:23 and it knows about the standard libraries 21:34:26 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:34:28 rvirding, yeah. I use the dialyzer a lot on the etorrent project. So much it has its own makefile target ;) 21:35:17 well I haven't got that far, also i'm running on windows and the latest version has to be initalzed which I haven't got around to doing yet 21:36:12 my guess is that I also make more erlang errors than you ;) 21:36:34 silenius [n=jl@p5B25D84C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:51 I make errors, just seldom type errors, though looking at how I type here you wouldn't believe it 21:36:53 My hunch is that 9/10 errors would have been caught by a type checking phase. At least with the class of errors I do 21:37:35 yes many are, but in one way they are the easy errors 21:37:59 the tough ones are when you return the right stuff, but it's all wrong :-( 21:38:21 or your algorithms are all screwed up 21:38:53 or your type system is just too weak 21:39:09 lichtblau: there? 21:39:37 it could very well be that my knowledge of what type systems can do is a bit old 21:41:36 in principle a type could be so constrained that only the right program is allowed. But then it is impossible to use. So you opt for some kind of approximation. Some languages are much luckier with what they got than others. 21:42:50 My own experience is, however, that it is much easier to succeed with a program written in a dynamically typed language than it is with a statically typed one 21:42:56 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:43:08 I sometimes think that having a system which is fault tolerant may mean that you tolerate more errors in your code 21:43:14 or perhaps not 21:43:29 that's probably true 21:43:54 I mean I wouldn't like to put my name to code which I don't feel is right 21:43:56 if something non-essential will just recover anyway when it breaks, there's far more of a temptation to leave it than if it'll cause a segfault, say :) 21:44:09 (and in companies far more of a business drive) 21:45:24 of course designing/building such systems all you think about are errors and who should handle them 21:45:44 you become as paranoid as a true security expoert 21:45:49 expert* 21:45:58 -!- l_a_m_ [n=l_a_m@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:59 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:28 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:51 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 21:51:08 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has left #lisp 21:51:18 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 21:53:51 prxq [n=mommer@BAI3493.bai.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 21:54:05 Uh oh. Is the common-lisp.net CVS hosed? 21:54:48 Updating SLIME doesn't seem to want to happen, complaining about "No space left on device." 21:54:59 ewh 21:55:05 that'll be an unhappy server 21:55:29 *e271* has enough space locally. 21:55:38 /var says 4.0GB used 0 free 21:55:46 That's it then. 21:55:54 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 21:55:56 what distribution? 21:56:23 *e271* is not a common-lisp.net member. "Should I write an email to the common-lisp admin list?" 21:56:33 e271: as a workaround, you can download a daily snapshot from the slime page 21:56:37 yes 21:56:52 and you might still be able to rsync the CVS archive itself 21:57:10 common-lisp.net::project/slime/cvsroot/ 21:57:40 http://common-lisp.net page blank? 21:58:10 yes 21:58:18 H4ns [n=hans@mb80736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:26 prxq: I am fine with SLIME, so it isn't urgent. I was just going to check out the last week's changes. 21:58:46 *prxq* .oO(hm... sbcl no longer has threads by default on x86-64..) 21:58:47 I assume they will find out about the problems without my mail. 21:59:09 H4ns: are you aware of problems with cl.net? 21:59:36 stassats`: nope, i'm on the commute. did you mail admin@ already? 22:00:22 smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has joined #lisp 22:00:34 H4ns: no 22:01:17 Just mailed admin@common-lisp.net 22:01:27 thanks. 22:02:32 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:13 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:31 sure enough, mail does not seem to work :/ 22:03:36 what's the problem? 22:04:02 Started by noticing I couldn't CVS update SLIME. 22:04:03 if /tmp is full, that machine is likely to be somewhat autistic 22:04:14 gna. 22:04:17 /var says 4.0GB used 0 free 22:04:27 well, that all will be better as soon as we've moved. 22:04:34 Then started to look for a common-lisp.net mailing adress to use (I don't have a login). 22:04:52 Noticed that http://common-lisp.net is balnk. 22:05:15 So, it is liely a full disk. 22:05:58 i managed to download the slime snapshot a few minutes ago 22:06:06 i feex i feex 22:06:06 just /var; / where projects are is only 98% full 22:06:17 2.7GB in /var/log 22:06:21 Now CVS updae works. 22:06:49 But http://common-lisp.net is still blank. 22:06:59 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@74.5.120.137] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:00 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp419.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 22:09:55 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:10:32 -!- milosF [n=milos@92.36.154.192] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:10:39 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:10:49 -!- antgreen [n=green@localhostlocaldomain.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:13:12 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:13:30 It seems sb-threads is no longer included by default in the binary packages of sbcl. Anyone here knows the reason? 22:13:54 ok, 700mb of rsync logs deleted, web site regenerated. 22:14:04 *cough* 22:14:12 it seems like the thread feature should be automatically enabled at build time on platforms that it's known to work on. 22:14:54 foom: it's a bit weird on macos still 22:15:05 it is not enabled in the binary for x86-64 I downloaded a few minutes ago 22:15:15 it's included in that binary package for 32bit linux for 1.0.20, anyway 22:15:15 ah 22:15:16 rsynnott: so maybe it shouldn't be enabled by defautl on macos yet 22:15:22 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:15:29 *the 22:15:51 so I'm compiling it from sources now. But I wonder what the reason might be. It used to be included by default. 22:16:00 it's not included by default when you compile from source 22:16:07 probably whoever compiled that one forgot to turn it on 22:16:25 -!- rpg_laptop [n=rpg@c-75-72-22-252.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:16:53 IMO it should be enabled by default when compiling from unaltered source, on linux-x86/x86-64 at least. 22:17:11 foom: I agree. 22:18:28 -!- H4ns [n=hans@mb80736d0.tmodns.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:21:44 antgreen [n=green@localhostlocaldomain.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:22:14 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:09 probably not on OSX though, as there are caveats 22:25:56 it tends to get upset if, say, 20 threads are doing things at once 22:26:53 sely_ [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:04 slime's got a bug :-). When I compile a function, and leave the error window by pressing 'q', I end up in another buffer. 22:33:05 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:27 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:40:24 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:41:42 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.229.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:34 -!- ths [n=ths@port-212-202-236-178.static.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:46:17 -!- ojno [n=ojno@cpc1-pool5-0-0-cust38.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:49 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-036-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:41 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:44 Which library for concurrent programming would you recommend to develop a http server? I was thinking to just use threads as normal, but a gentleman from this channel told me that the event-driven model is better than threads. 22:53:23 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:28 there's a lot to choose from. There's also the possibility of continuations (hah) 22:53:53 but there's issues with using threads for an http server, mostly because threads on sbcl are big and bulky 22:54:12 if you want a nice threading library, though, I definitely recommend bordeaux-threads. 22:54:23 erlang/lfe/otp (sorry couldn't help that) 22:54:33 avoid threads like the plague 22:54:53 lfe ain't quite common lisp, though, is it? :) 22:55:07 tomoyuki28jp: iolib, perhaps? 22:55:28 no, the good bits from cl and erlang :-) 22:55:37 imao 22:56:19 CLOS? ;) 22:56:19 I wonder why IOlib was never mentioned to me before :< 22:57:50 rsynnott: I will take a look at IOLib. Thanks. 22:57:51 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:55 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:58:07 tomoyuki28jp: it's a pain to instalkl 22:58:13 but I've heard quite good things about it 22:58:58 what's so hard about iolib? >_> 22:59:15 fetching the dependencies 22:59:41 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 22:59:58 oh. That's not so bad. There's worse projects out there. 23:00:12 Is there a documentation page of iolib? 23:00:14 hefner: oh come on, I've even put the complete list of deps on the download page 23:00:29 it's just 20 seconds of cut&paste in a terminal 23:00:37 and they're all bloody darcs 23:00:44 lies. There's some git 23:00:55 *rsynnott* has been unable to convince my laptop to install darcs 23:00:56 correction: one git 23:01:00 rsynnott: I don't use darcs, but some deps do 23:01:05 so I get them elsewhere and then transfer them 23:01:09 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:35 fe[nl]ix: not too much info about iolib on the site. Does it do much more than help you set up basic server/client io? 23:04:04 no 23:04:10 k then <_< 23:05:09 So any recommendations besides iolib? 23:05:27 iolib seems quite nice 23:05:40 I may end up porting my current server code to it 23:05:54 so... looks like that's the way to go >_> 23:06:15 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-19.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:06:19 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-19.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:35 tomoyuki28jp: you could also try cooking up your own thing by using a socket API with continuations. 23:06:42 :P 23:07:03 sykopomp: yeah, that is one way. 23:07:52 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:08:04 sykopomp: But in that case, I don't know how I can use multi-CPUs. 23:08:08 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has quit [] 23:08:41 you could spawn worker threads to do other server-related things other than IO 23:08:46 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:22 sykopomp: oh, yeah 23:09:39 -!- booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:09:59 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:10:37 So iolib doesn't have any docs? 23:10:43 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:59 use the source 23:11:18 *sykopomp* stops himself from making a star wars joke. 23:11:56 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 23:12:01 stassats`: okay, I will read the source anyways. 23:13:28 -!- antgreen [n=green@localhostlocaldomain.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 23:20:01 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 23:24:26 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:27:03 *rvirding* says goodnight all 23:27:08 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:27:24 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085226.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:34 By the way, do you know any good cl continuation implementation? I know cl-cont and PG's one in the book "On Lisp", and I just found out arnesi. 23:29:00 one good vote for cl-cont 23:29:41 tomoyuki28jp: i have been using arnesi for 4 years or so. 23:29:44 does ecl have network-related functions? are they documented? 23:29:54 ramus [n=ramus@adsl-75-34-7-77.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:56 tomoyuki28jp: the nice thing about arnesi is that the interpreter can omit reasonable error messages. 23:31:18 drewc: sounds cool :) 23:31:19 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone!"] 23:31:19 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-188-161-219.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:31:28 drewc: omit? 23:31:35 emit, sorry 23:33:59 :-)) 23:34:13 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has left #lisp 23:34:54 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:35:00 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:43 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.45.123] has quit [] 23:36:21 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:29 Xach: iirc, it has a sockets module that's compatible with sb-bsd-sockets 23:36:31 Xach: what do you mean by "network-related" ? sockets ? 23:36:49 fe[nl]ix: yes 23:36:59 joshe: thanks. ouch. of all the interfaces, they had to pick that one. 23:37:17 I could be wrong, check the docs on the website 23:37:52 you're right, just didn't see it at first glance 23:37:53 cky [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:38:03 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@75.31.253.217] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:11 lol 23:38:28 Xach: it's basically sb-bsd-sockets with inline C 23:38:41 ok 23:38:45 *Xach* will give it a whirl 23:42:30 MHOOO [n=yeh@3-028.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:45:28 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 23:45:34 Is there any function which can turn a defmethod like specializer syntax (e.g.: "((arg1 class1))") into a find-method friendly specializer syntax (e.g.: "(list (class-of class1))")? 23:47:21 whee! 23:47:25 *Xach* adds ecl to his checklist 23:49:10 Xach: you don't use usocket? 23:49:12 lukego [n=lukegorr@c-24-6-164-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:20 _8david [n=user@pD9540274.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:49:40 stassats`: not for this project. 23:49:46 milanj- [n=milan@77.46.251.147] has joined #lisp 23:50:40 Xach: what is the reason? 23:51:49 stassats`: too big and with too many dependencies 23:52:07 okay see all of you bastards at the lisp50 oopsla shindig and hopefully for a few beers on the weekend leading up too 23:52:10 *Xach* has the functionality he needs, for 6 lisps, in a 500 line file with no dependencies 23:52:46 actually, only about 300 lines is portable network stuff. 23:53:44 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:55:00 does bknr support saving of, say, hash tables that contain function objects? 23:55:40 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-17.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]