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2018-10-04T11:29:26Z hhdave: rme: I posted some messages about a problem in CCL to the #lisp channel by mistake. I thought I might have found the cause of a longstanding problem in our code which causes intermittent crashes, but I haven't. I did find a bug in #'replace, but it was fixed in commit 956d89398e2840ee7f5adda0af242eae721e22f1#diff-c51d0aad3eb21a87a37b579343b117be, so don't worry about it. I still wonder if it's related to the problem we are having, but I stll can't 
2018-10-04T11:29:28Z hhdave: replicate that.
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2018-10-04T13:59:03Z rme: hhdave: ok.  If you can find an updated test case, please let me know (as a github issue or wherever)
2018-10-04T14:00:37Z hhdave: rme: Thanks, will do. I was hopeful for a while that I had found a way to reliably replicate it.
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2018-10-07T05:57:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there any way to get the cocoa stack from the debugger
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2018-10-07T17:47:30Z phoe: rme: I have a minor request for MOP compatibility
2018-10-07T17:47:54Z phoe: I have been tracking down https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1796568 in SBCL and decided to check the same thing in CCL
2018-10-07T17:48:19Z phoe: CLASS-NAME does not necessarily have to return a symbol and SETF CLASS-NAME can accept any Lisp data as the new value
2018-10-07T17:50:16Z phoe: See http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-name.html and http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/setf-class-name.html
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2018-10-07T17:53:09Z phoe: Which means that https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/blob/master/level-1/l1-clos.lisp#L1779 would need to go for MOP compatibility, and then someone (read: me) would need to check how much of CCL blows up the moment we name classes after non-symbols.
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2018-10-07T21:27:04Z rme: On the other hand, the spec says that a class is named by a symbol.
2018-10-07T21:28:10Z rme: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_class_.htm#class-name
2018-10-07T21:47:30Z phoe: rme: yes, this is where the spec and MOP disagree.
2018-10-07T21:47:52Z phoe: MOP explicitly conflicts with the specification here in order to extend it.
2018-10-07T21:48:19Z phoe: I've been reading these for a longer while now.
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2018-10-08T01:20:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are there any introspection facilities for objective-c objects?
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2018-10-08T02:39:06Z PuercoPop: phoe: given that (setf class-name) is a generic function, can't you just specialize on your class to support more general class names?
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2018-10-08T05:42:35Z phoe: PuercoPop: any Lisp data can be assigned to the name of any function according to the MOP. Specializing can't solve this general case.
2018-10-08T05:42:46Z phoe: s/function/class/
2018-10-08T05:45:59Z phoe: In particular, a standard-class may have any Lisp data as its name. How do I specialize on that case?
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2018-10-08T06:06:31Z PuercoPop: phoe: You would specialize on standard-class. The CLASS-NAME's default method should specialize on the CLASS system-class. Note that what you are asking is not for CCL to behave in an unportable manner but to behave against the CL Spec. From the a "laywer's" point of view there is no conflict between the MOP and the CLHS, only a more restrictive specification in the latter one. If one wants to the broader set of val
2018-10-08T06:06:31Z PuercoPop: ues accepted it seems reasonable to expect it to work only for classes outside of the ones defined in the CLHS.
2018-10-08T06:22:05Z phoe: PuercoPop: I can't portably specialize on standard-class. Defining a method where all specializers are in the CL package is undefined behavior.
2018-10-08T06:22:33Z phoe: ...and where the GF is in the CL package as well.
2018-10-08T06:22:46Z phoe: In particular, (defmethod class-name ((class standard-class)) ...) is UB.
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2018-10-08T16:05:42Z PuercoPop: phoe: Why is defining a method where all the specializers are in the CL package undefined behaviour?
2018-10-08T16:07:00Z phoe: the spec saya so somewhere
2018-10-08T16:07:17Z phoe: could you ask that on #lisp? I'm in classes now
2018-10-08T16:07:34Z phoe: will be able to respond in a few hours
2018-10-08T16:08:23Z Shinmera: it isn't, but it is when it's a standard generic function. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
2018-10-08T16:08:37Z Shinmera: See point 19
2018-10-08T16:08:41Z PuercoPop: Thanks Shinmera!
2018-10-08T16:13:25Z PuercoPop: But that would mean only that the program is non-conforming (not portable), not that the behaviour is undefined.
2018-10-08T16:18:55Z |3b|: non-conforming, and likely to conflict with other programs that do the same thing
2018-10-08T16:19:32Z |3b|: actually, top says undefined
2018-10-08T16:20:04Z |3b|: presumably because it could overwrite implementation methods in that case
2018-10-08T16:21:15Z PuercoPop: |3b|: You are right, my bad
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