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2018-02-07T17:36:05Z KZiemian: I try 'standard-method and 'method-combination (blind shooting) 2018-02-07T17:43:26Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-02-07T18:00:14Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9) 2018-02-07T18:01:04Z sjl joined #ccl 2018-02-07T18:11:10Z KZiemian quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-02-07T19:14:33Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2018-02-07T19:48:58Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-02-07T20:02:00Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-02-07T20:08:33Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-02-07T21:20:35Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2018-02-07T22:18:02Z rme: I think I have almost talked myself into dropping support for 32-bit x86 in upcoming CCL releases. 2018-02-07T22:18:53Z jmercouris: rme: Do it 2018-02-07T22:19:52Z rme: But https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/906782773095968768 2018-02-07T22:19:54Z sabetts: what are the costs/benefits? 2018-02-07T22:21:43Z jmercouris: Dude, just do it 2018-02-07T22:21:51Z jmercouris: if it will advance the platform, don't waste your time on 32-bit 2018-02-07T22:22:23Z jmercouris: if anyone wishes to use 32 bit, there are still other implementations 2018-02-07T22:22:42Z jmercouris: I think you should cast a less wide net and focus on supporting your most common customer case 2018-02-07T22:22:45Z jmercouris: but, thats just my 2c 2018-02-07T22:22:59Z rme: sabetts: I would avoid having to spend several days debugging a number of x8632 code generation bugs, and it would simplify the x86-64 backend not to be parameterized for 32- and 64-bit. 2018-02-07T22:23:11Z rme: And version 1.11.5 still supports 32-bit and still works. 2018-02-07T22:23:51Z sabetts: rme: seems like a decent benefit. what's the cost? 2018-02-07T22:24:37Z rme: I'm most worried about shafting 32-bit Windows users, and people who want to distribute applications to 32-bit Windows users. 2018-02-07T22:24:59Z rme: I'm perfectly happy to drop 32-bit x86 on macOS, since Apple themselves are doing it soon anyway. 2018-02-07T22:25:15Z sabetts: yeah, that makes sense 2018-02-07T22:25:32Z sabetts: do you have any metrics on 32bit windows users? 2018-02-07T22:25:33Z jmercouris: Be the change you want to see in the world 2018-02-07T22:25:38Z jmercouris: 32 bit windows users should get with the program 2018-02-07T22:25:43Z jmercouris: I suggest you shaft them on purpose 2018-02-07T22:25:58Z jmercouris: if there is enough pressure, maybe they will use an OS from this century 2018-02-07T22:26:19Z jmercouris: otherwise, I should assume their needs can be met by existing versions of CCL 2018-02-07T22:26:40Z rme: Also, if someone wants to use an embedded 32-bit x86 computer, the lack of 32-bit support might cause them to look elsewhere, and I might lose the chance to have them as a client. 2018-02-07T22:27:09Z jmercouris: how many of your clients are for embedded applictions? 2018-02-07T22:27:27Z jmercouris: I imagine most of those devices are programmed in some assembler, or some c, no? 2018-02-07T22:27:37Z jmercouris: maybe at most some "pico" version of a mainstream language 2018-02-07T22:28:16Z rme: One client uses ARM, and another (which was cancelled) wanted to use 32-bit x86. 2018-02-07T22:28:42Z jmercouris: I guess then the question is, how much money are they paying you 2018-02-07T22:28:46Z jmercouris: do they justify your time? 2018-02-07T22:29:20Z rme: sabetts: I don't have a good idea of how many 32-bit Windows users of CCL there are. According to my recent survey, about 10% of the respondents used 32-bit x86. 2018-02-07T22:30:45Z rme: Well, that's just it: if 32-bit x86 is important to someone, we need to get in touch so that we can discuss how to fund the work needed to sustain the 32-bit x86 backend. 2018-02-07T22:33:24Z sabetts: does that 10% match the download stats for each of the CCL binaries? 2018-02-07T22:33:55Z sabetts: yeah, makes sense to ask that ~10% of the userbase how important it is 2018-02-07T22:34:07Z rme: The 32-bit and 64-bit binaries are all bundled together as one download, so it's not possible to say. 2018-02-07T22:34:21Z sabetts: oh, right 2018-02-07T22:35:03Z jmercouris: I say you drop support for new versions 2018-02-07T22:35:04Z sabetts: splitting them out into separate downloads could be illuminating... 2018-02-07T22:35:11Z jmercouris: if they need support, they will find a way to pay for it 2018-02-07T22:35:18Z jmercouris: if they cannot pay for it, they will not reach out, and it is not worth your time 2018-02-07T22:41:54Z eschatologist: definitely split out the downloads so you can get statistics 2018-02-07T22:42:00Z eschatologist: I bet that works reasonably well for SBCL 2018-02-07T22:42:16Z eschatologist: also SBCL still supports 32-bit x86 so if anyone really wants to use it, they can 2018-02-07T22:42:43Z eschatologist: (I found CCL nice and fast on my Intel Edison, which is 32-bit x86, compared to SBCL. But Intel doesn't make it anymore…) 2018-02-07T22:43:33Z rme: And again, ccl 1.11.5 will still run on 32-bit x86. 2018-02-07T22:43:50Z jmercouris: The choice is clear 2018-02-07T22:45:45Z rme: And I have to admit that because I wrote by myself most of the code to make CCL run on 32-bit x86, it's hard to let it go. But there's always more where that came from, right? 2018-02-07T22:45:47Z eschatologist: yeah, I find it sad I can't use current CCL on an original RPi, but that doesn't stop 1.11.5 from working 2018-02-07T22:47:05Z jmercouris: rme: The could lives on in your github history 2018-02-07T22:47:40Z jmercouris: s/could/code 2018-02-07T22:47:44Z jmercouris: I'm very tired :D 2018-02-07T23:06:05Z __rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-02-07T23:10:00Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-02-07T23:13:36Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-02-07T23:41:44Z sabetts: given that some ppl still use 32bit, I wonder if there would be a way to restructure the code to maintain support without it being a big hassle to keep it working 2018-02-07T23:42:11Z sabetts: compromise speed, memory, whatever in order to preserve support 2018-02-07T23:42:56Z sabetts: do both, in other words. 2018-02-08T00:00:28Z rme: Of course it's possible, but the question is whether I (or someone else) should spend a couple weeks of effort (or whatever) on that. 2018-02-08T00:10:05Z sabetts: yeah 2018-02-08T00:16:55Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-08T00:30:21Z __rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-08T00:35:09Z __rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-02-08T00:59:37Z pierpa joined #ccl 2018-02-08T01:46:50Z dim quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-02-08T01:47:30Z dim joined #ccl 2018-02-08T02:43:05Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-02-08T03:48:30Z milanj joined #ccl 2018-02-08T03:49:13Z pierpa_ joined #ccl 2018-02-08T03:50:59Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2018-02-08T03:51:46Z __rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-08T03:56:41Z __rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-02-08T04:15:01Z adlai: rme: one could always conduct a "reactor test": announce you're dropping support and measure the fallout. 2018-02-08T04:19:43Z rme: https://lists.clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2018-February/011786.html was my gentler attempt to introduce that topic. 2018-02-08T04:29:42Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-02-08T04:42:49Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-08T04:47:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-02-08T05:07:44Z sabetts: rme: pretty reasonable sounding email 2018-02-08T05:19:15Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-08T05:24:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-02-08T05:46:39Z pierpa_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-02-08T06:21:38Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-02-08T06:29:32Z eschatologist quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb2build2 - http://znc.in) 2018-02-08T06:30:15Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-08T06:30:23Z eschatologist joined #ccl 2018-02-08T06:36:24Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2018-02-08T07:30:44Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-08T07:35:32Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-02-08T08:00:24Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-02-08T08:32:40Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-08T08:37:04Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-02-08T08:39:42Z milanj joined #ccl 2018-02-08T09:22:13Z BitPuffin joined #ccl 2018-02-08T09:29:47Z hhdave joined #ccl 2018-02-08T10:24:28Z kolb: rme: I guess make an issue offering commercial work on 32bit, until it doesn't pay your bills follow your heart and hack on whatever you want to hack. 2018-02-08T10:24:48Z kolb: *while it doesn't 2018-02-08T10:25:16Z kolb: Anxiety is definitely misplaced! :-) 2018-02-08T10:26:48Z kolb: It's not like 11.5 will cease to be a full featured, commercial quality CL impl any time soon 2018-02-08T10:49:47Z jackdaniel: from my experience in closed-source projects "commercial quality" software (as in - sold commercially) is usually much worse quality than FOSS software 2018-02-08T10:50:15Z jackdaniel: of course there are exceptions (or maybe I had a bad luck with employers) 2018-02-08T10:50:44Z jackdaniel: but given I'm not biased too much I think it is valid to say, that "commercial quality" phrase is often misused :-) 2018-02-08T10:59:43Z kolb: I interpret "commercial quality" as "worth to pay for" / "competitive with commercial solutions" but maybe that's just me 2018-02-08T11:04:27Z jackdaniel: I much better like phrasing "production ready" or "competetive quality" - quality and being commercial are orthogonal (imo), there are various reasons why software may be worth paying for (technical support, no other options, unique problem you need to have software written for) - maybe word "commercial quality" is misleading only for me though 2018-02-08T11:05:34Z jackdaniel: sorry for nit-picking phrasing (I knew what you meant of course), I just couldn't resist the urge to express my opinion on this particular words 2018-02-08T11:11:41Z jackdaniel: /not to mention, that many commercial solutions are sometimes heavily dependent on foss libraries -does it make their quality non-commercial, or underlying code doesn't count?/ 2018-02-08T11:49:16Z lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 2018-02-08T11:54:03Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-02-08T11:55:58Z pjb joined #ccl 2018-02-08T11:59:28Z red-dot joined #ccl 2018-02-08T12:33:55Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-08T12:38:53Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2018-02-08T13:03:34Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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That might be the cause. What are the conflicting symbols in question? 2018-02-11T23:47:55Z rk[ghost]: query and, let me try and find the other one 2018-02-11T23:48:06Z rk[ghost]: however, now i just get a case where it crashes -.- 2018-02-11T23:48:12Z rk[ghost]: i think something else might be awry. 2018-02-11T23:48:46Z rk[ghost]: i was able to get it to work when just loading armcl with nothing (although it conflicted earlier o.O) 2018-02-11T23:49:08Z rk[ghost]: however, when i try to (use-package :postmodern) after loading in my code.. then now it just crashes. 2018-02-11T23:50:05Z rk[ghost]: err, i wasn't planning to dive this deep at the moment... thought it was going to be a straightforward port from one box to another.. 2018-02-11T23:50:13Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-11T23:50:20Z rk[ghost]: rme: thanks for being ready to help.. i'll come back later when i am ready to resolve.. 2018-02-11T23:51:01Z rme: OK. Please don't hesitate to make an issue at https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/new if necessary. 2018-02-11T23:51:29Z pjb: rk[ghost]: either: 1- never use the cl-user package, since its contents are implementation dependent, anything you do in that package is not conforming, or: 2- clean it up in your rc file: (mapc (lambda (package) (unuse-package package "COMMON-LISP-USER"))(set-difference (copy-seq (package-use-list "COMMON-LISP-USER")) (delete nil (list #| A list of all the "CL" packages possible: |# (find-package "COMMON-LISP") (find-package 2018-02-11T23:51:29Z pjb: "IMAGE-BASED-COMMON-LISP"))))) 2018-02-11T23:52:40Z rk[ghost]: pjb: thanks for 1 and 2 2018-02-11T23:52:43Z rk[ghost]: 1, dually noted. 2018-02-11T23:52:46Z rk[ghost]: 2, cool thanks.. 2018-02-11T23:53:04Z pjb: By the way, it's rather funny that the standard specifies CL-USER in such a way that anything you do in the REPL is non-conforming by design. 2018-02-11T23:53:07Z rk[ghost]: rme: aye, i will once i iron out it repetiting if it isn't user error. 2018-02-11T23:53:18Z rk[ghost]: =P 2018-02-11T23:53:34Z rk[ghost]: REPL is the userspace of lisp. handy, but i suppose not the core.. 2018-02-11T23:53:48Z rk[ghost]: so, then we need to define a public standard for cl-user, eh? 2018-02-11T23:54:07Z pjb: Yes, but the minimum for a standard would be to specify it so that you can get conforming results by default. 2018-02-11T23:54:20Z rk[ghost]: ha, aye. 2018-02-11T23:54:27Z rk[ghost]: i don't know what i was doing with cl-user.. i'll have to poke around. 2018-02-11T23:54:35Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-02-11T23:54:45Z rk[ghost]: i was adding something new to old code 2018-02-11T23:54:55Z pjb: rk[ghost]: well, the simpliest is to just use your own packages. I have a mkupack function to do that. 2018-02-11T23:54:58Z rk[ghost]: decided recently to play around with adding in postgres support to my program. 2018-02-11T23:55:30Z rk[ghost]: right, i might have imported cl-user in to my own package? i don't know.. i need to poke around a bit. refamiliarize myself with the several years old bits.. 2018-02-11T23:55:52Z pjb: Often, CL-USER doesn't export anything, so importing it won't do anything. 2018-02-11T23:56:08Z pjb: but then again, non-conforming. 2018-02-12T00:00:19Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-12T00:05:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-02-12T00:10:24Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-12T00:15:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-02-12T01:05:55Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2018-02-12T03:03:57Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-02-12T03:04:08Z eschatologist joined #ccl 2018-02-12T05:25:15Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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2018-02-13T18:21:03Z rme: I spend a non-trivial amount of effort making releases that are as easy to install as I can make them. Downloading a release from https://ccl.clozure.com/download.html is not complicated. 2018-02-13T18:59:21Z ddp joined #ccl 2018-02-13T19:01:19Z ddp quit (Client Quit) 2018-02-13T19:01:38Z ddp joined #ccl 2018-02-13T19:03:36Z ddp quit (Client Quit) 2018-02-13T19:03:52Z ddp joined #ccl 2018-02-13T19:37:36Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2018-02-13T19:54:40Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-02-13T19:55:27Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2018-02-13T19:58:52Z jackdaniel: looking at the PR message their concern is that its not built from the source (but rather installed from a binary) -and this is preasumbly not in-line with their rules 2018-02-13T20:13:17Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-02-13T20:13:28Z eschatologist joined #ccl 2018-02-13T21:33:53Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2018-02-13T22:35:21Z __rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2018-02-13T22:57:49Z rme: Someone tried to make a Debian package of CCL some time ago, and he ran into the "must be built from source" problem. CCL is written in itself. 2018-02-13T23:12:58Z sjl joined #ccl 2018-02-13T23:17:22Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-02-13T23:37:14Z sjl__ joined #ccl 2018-02-13T23:39:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-02-14T00:13:53Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-14T00:13:59Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2018-02-14T00:20:14Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-14T00:25:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2018-02-14T01:01:36Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-14T01:27:40Z pierpa joined #ccl 2018-02-14T02:14:23Z pjb: rme: how do they build gcc from sources? 2018-02-14T02:15:01Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2018-02-14T02:15:14Z pjb: rme: you could provide a version of ccl as shell script hex dump, and then use it to compile from sources. 2018-02-14T02:16:26Z pjb: rme: and even, only the image needs to be provided, you can always compile the kernel with gcc… 2018-02-14T02:17:01Z pjb: So no cheating, you don't have to chmod anything. 2018-02-14T02:19:37Z 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ccl-logbot joined #ccl 2018-02-17T11:45:33Z 2018-02-17T11:45:33Z names: ccl-logbot eschatologist rumbler31 sjl gko itruslove dustinm` jdz kini MetaYan pjb stylewarning carvite @ChanServ kolb rk[ghost] jackdaniel sigjuice gendl @rme gbyers billstclair alms_clozure gz_ dim sixbitslacker brucem Intensity adlai phoe fe[nl]ix norserob swflint Blkt |3b| fiddlerwoaroof peccu3 2018-02-17T12:04:24Z ccl-logbot joined #ccl 2018-02-17T12:04:24Z 2018-02-17T12:04:24Z names: ccl-logbot eschatologist rumbler31 sjl gko itruslove dustinm` jdz kini MetaYan pjb stylewarning @ChanServ kolb rk[ghost] jackdaniel sigjuice gendl @rme gbyers billstclair alms_clozure gz_ dim sixbitslacker brucem Intensity adlai phoe fe[nl]ix norserob swflint Blkt |3b| fiddlerwoaroof peccu3 2018-02-17T12:05:47Z carvite joined #ccl 2018-02-17T12:24:19Z jackdaniel: is there a way to get file-stream file descriptor? 2018-02-17T12:24:36Z jackdaniel: I know it is in ioblock-descriptor, but how to extract ioblock from the stream? 2018-02-17T12:28:19Z jackdaniel: I'm mostly interested in getting file descriptor from the process which I start with ccl:run-program 2018-02-17T12:28:45Z jackdaniel: (working on cl-charms being able to work on terminals started with run-program) 2018-02-17T12:29:34Z pjb: what about ccl::stream-ioblock? 2018-02-17T12:31:08Z jackdaniel: huh, I don't know how I have missed it... thank you 2018-02-17T12:31:14Z pjb: (ccl::ioblock-device (ccl::stream-ioblock stream)) 2018-02-17T12:31:41Z jackdaniel: stream-ioblock has second obligatory argument, but yes 2018-02-17T12:31:44Z jackdaniel: that's what I needed 2018-02-17T12:32:52Z pjb: (ccl::ioblock-device (ccl::stream-ioblock stream t)) ; we need a errorp argument here. 2018-02-17T12:40:16Z milanj joined #ccl 2018-02-17T12:42:55Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2018-02-17T13:24:58Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-02-17T14:25:29Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-17T14:30:25Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 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2018-02-19T03:05:51Z consolers joined #ccl 2018-02-19T03:06:07Z consolers: ARM is behind the campaign to kill off x86-32 isn't it 2018-02-19T03:06:57Z consolers: i strongly suspect they were behind apple dropping ppc too 2018-02-19T03:10:52Z pierpa: I believe they are behind global warming too 2018-02-19T03:13:51Z pierpa: (and anyway both x86 and arm will be swept away bt risc-V, in the long run. 2018-02-19T03:13:58Z pierpa: ) 2018-02-19T03:47:50Z rme: What campaign? Did I miss the memo? 2018-02-19T03:48:11Z consolers: no :) 2018-02-19T03:48:43Z rme: More importantly, did I miss the incentive payment? 2018-02-19T03:48:59Z consolers: hehe 2018-02-19T03:49:03Z rme: :-) 2018-02-19T04:29:07Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2018-02-19T04:55:47Z consolers quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2018-02-19T06:03:21Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2018-02-19T06:03:49Z eschatologist joined #ccl 2018-02-19T08:39:47Z pjb joined #ccl 2018-02-19T08:40:02Z pjb is now known as Guest70280 2018-02-19T08:46:56Z Guest70280 is now known as pjb` 2018-02-19T08:47:11Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2018-02-19T09:06:07Z hhdave joined #ccl 2018-02-19T09:14:27Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2018-02-19T09:30:01Z milanj joined #ccl 2018-02-19T10:55:52Z hhdave joined #ccl 2018-02-19T11:50:02Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2018-02-19T14:13:26Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2018-02-19T14:32:21Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2018-02-19T15:13:56Z rumbler3_ 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