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2017-12-01T21:15:17Z _rumbler31: There was a guy on your project who had started porting ccldoc to run in sbcl 2017-12-01T21:15:28Z _rumbler31: I don't remember how far he got but he put some work into it 2017-12-01T21:15:47Z _rumbler31: KZIemian_:^ 2017-12-01T21:19:02Z KZiemian_: rumbler31: yes I also see that he pust something to ccldoc github repository 2017-12-01T21:19:30Z KZiemian_: rumbler31: thank you for help, I must now go 2017-12-01T21:19:52Z KZiemian_: rumbler31: I will try to find him 2017-12-01T21:20:05Z KZiemian_: rumbler31: and talk to him 2017-12-01T21:20:13Z KZiemian_: sayoonara 2017-12-01T21:20:18Z KZiemian_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-12-01T21:22:37Z KZiemian_ joined #ccl 2017-12-01T21:22:46Z KZiemian_: phoe: are you here? 2017-12-01T21:34:05Z KZiemian_: I must go 2017-12-01T21:34:11Z KZiemian_: see you 2017-12-01T21:34:14Z KZiemian_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-12-01T21:57:12Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-12-01T21:59:34Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-12-01T22:04:56Z astronavt quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-12-01T22:38:35Z rme: KZiemian: if you ever come back I can try to help you. 2017-12-01T22:49:32Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-12-01T23:00:42Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-12-01T23:05:12Z astronavt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-12-01T23:28:32Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-12-01T23:50:28Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-12-02T00:01:27Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-12-02T00:06:07Z astronavt quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-12-02T00:49:06Z resttime joined #ccl 2017-12-02T00:52:49Z resttime: Are there any releases of CCL for the ARM "soft float" architecture? 2017-12-02T01:02:12Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-12-02T01:06:52Z astronavt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-12-02T01:33:20Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-12-02T01:45:07Z rme: I think ccl started expecting to use the hard-float ABI in version 1.10. 2017-12-02T01:45:50Z rme: Version 1.9 is old, but you could try it if you want. See https://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/ReleaseNotes/1.9 2017-12-02T01:46:53Z rme: Post-1.11, ccl is going to require armv7l (that is, it's dropping armv6, which is what the original Raspberry Pi is. Later Raspberry Pi models support armv7l). 2017-12-02T01:48:08Z resttime: Hmmmm, anyway to cross compile newer versions to the soft-float? Or does drop mean no more support whatsoever? 2017-12-02T02:08:37Z eschatologist: I still think it's really unfortunate to drop the original Raspberry Pi, there were a lot of them and CCL worked quite well on it. 2017-12-02T02:09:43Z rme: It might still work to build a lisp kernel with "make FLOAT_ABI_OPTION=-mfloat-abi=softfp", but C library math functions will probably not work right. 2017-12-02T02:16:04Z resttime: Thanks for the info, I suppose I'll just have to try working with version 1.9 2017-12-02T02:16:28Z rme: If I may ask, what are you using that is still on the soft-float ABI? 2017-12-02T02:18:09Z resttime: An ARM Cortex-A8 2017-12-02T02:18:25Z resttime: On a System on Module (SoM) that is 2017-12-02T02:19:20Z rme: And your OS doesn't support the hard-float ABI? The Cortex-A8 has an an FPU. 2017-12-02T02:20:27Z rme: There are so many ARM variants. It's just about impossible to keep them all straight. 2017-12-02T02:21:32Z resttime: I've checked binaries generated by the crosscompiler and they don't seem to have indication of hard float 2017-12-02T02:24:10Z resttime: And the linux being used might be "special" for this SoM from what I recall 2017-12-02T02:25:06Z resttime: I'm basically trying to get lisp running on flight hardware for a satellite :) 2017-12-02T02:25:54Z rme: Can you run "readelf -h a.out" on your host (or target) system? 2017-12-02T02:26:07Z rme: The Flags: line should say what ABI the binary uses. 2017-12-02T02:26:45Z rme: On my Raspberry Pi, I get "Flags: 0x5000402, has entry point, Version5 EABI, hard-float ABI" 2017-12-02T02:27:38Z resttime: Flags: 0x5000002, Version5 EABI, 2017-12-02T02:28:20Z resttime: (I crosscompiled a simple hello world and ran readelf on that) 2017-12-02T02:28:52Z resttime: On computer, I don't have access to the hardware right now so I'm hoping that's sufficient 2017-12-02T02:30:01Z resttime: https://i.imgur.com/fLtAMo1.png 2017-12-02T02:30:04Z resttime: Exact output 2017-12-02T02:31:55Z rme: It doesn't look promising. According to TFM, the 0x400 flag bit is supposed to indicate hard-float. What's "readelf -A a.out" say? Does in mention VFP registers? 2017-12-02T02:34:04Z resttime: Nothing on VFP: https://i.imgur.com/ucsyuP0.png 2017-12-02T02:37:07Z rme: Tag_ABI_HardFP_use: Deprecated? I have no idea what that means. 2017-12-02T02:38:05Z resttime: Neither do I, I'm just supposing it's no good. I checked some ARM hard float compiled binaries and they had the things you were asking about I think :P 2017-12-02T02:38:23Z resttime: So I guess it's a no go for hard float 2017-12-02T02:38:36Z rme: They always pick the weirdest stuff for flight hardware. 2017-12-02T02:40:10Z rme: If you build a trivial binary with "cc -mfloat-abi=hard foo.c", does that seem to work? 2017-12-02T02:44:19Z resttime: Error upon linking while "soft" and "softfp" work 2017-12-02T02:46:58Z rme: No luck. Bummer. 2017-12-02T02:47:29Z resttime: Ahh, found out my tool chain has a readelf, with some changes to output but likewise no 0x400 flag and no mention of VFP registers 2017-12-02T02:47:45Z resttime: Yeah :/ 2017-12-02T02:48:15Z resttime: Cross-compiling tool chain that is 2017-12-02T02:50:10Z resttime: And for completeness the output: https://imgur.com/a/NyZpV 2017-12-02T02:54:19Z rumbler31: its because EE's don't know enough to pick the right linux distro to support "all" the hardware 2017-12-02T02:55:05Z rumbler31: I have this problem at work, an ancient version of handrolled angstrom linux because the Aerospace engineer lead thought he could roll his own. But then lost the environment he used to make it so we couldn't safely upgrade the system 2017-12-02T02:55:48Z rumbler31: I am now the happy owner of an arm system running stretch, with full support for the hardware floats and the neon architecture 2017-12-02T02:56:26Z rumbler31: resstime try these https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/4677/how-can-i-tell-if-i-am-using-the-hard-float-or-the-soft-float-version-of-debian 2017-12-02T02:56:31Z rumbler31: I know its for a pi but 2017-12-02T02:56:59Z rumbler31: in other news are you on the east coast and are you hiring? :-) 2017-12-02T03:10:07Z resttime: Seems more confirmation for soft float since the toolchain tools have gnueabi instead of gnueabihf in the name 2017-12-02T03:13:24Z resttime: Also nope and nope. I'm a student doing club stuff. 2017-12-02T03:18:31Z resttime: It actually feels kind of surreal that I get to be doing this kind of stuff. One year ago I wasn't into space stuff and one year later I'm doing bunch of stuff lol. 2017-12-02T03:26:00Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-02T03:26:04Z resttime: Well I suppose I'll be going with CCL v1.9 for sure then, I hope it's fairly stable and works 2017-12-02T03:26:42Z resttime: SBCL seems to also have an old version as well at 1.2.7 vs 1.4.1 but I've heard that it wasn't very stable opposed to CCL 2017-12-02T03:26:58Z resttime: SBCL 1.2.7 for armel that is 2017-12-02T03:36:37Z rme: Given that flight hardware is involved, I can't just say, "here's $35, kid, go buy a Raspberry Pi 3". 2017-12-02T03:37:50Z rme: In fact, it's probably not even the hardware. It's probably the operating system software. 2017-12-02T03:56:04Z pjb: resttime: you can get hardware properties from: cat /proc/cpuinfo 2017-12-02T04:02:42Z resttime: I'll try it when I get a chance. If it's actually only the OS, maybe it might be possible to recompile it with a newer toolchain that does hard float. 2017-12-02T04:04:16Z resttime: People have said that the current one is pretty old 2017-12-02T04:08:16Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-12-02T05:00:40Z rumbler31: that is likely going to be harder than it sounds 2017-12-02T05:15:03Z rumbler31: http://lispm.de/ccl#t106 2017-12-02T05:19:22Z rumbler31: er I suppose that is the opposite direction for you 2017-12-02T05:45:39Z resttime quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-12-02T06:09:42Z red-dot joined #ccl 2017-12-02T06:58:23Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-12-02T08:03:24Z easye joined #ccl 2017-12-02T08:25:51Z easye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-02T10:23:45Z BitPuffin|osx joined #ccl 2017-12-02T10:34:57Z liead is now known as adlai 2017-12-02T10:37:59Z KZiemian joined #ccl 2017-12-02T10:39:20Z KZiemian: Hello World! 2017-12-02T10:42:49Z adlai: rme: general point re: git - github is just some service for hosting git repos, and has been trying for years (decade!?) now to coerce their own view of correct git workflows onto the rest of the world... doesn't mean that their PR model has any sense behind it 2017-12-02T10:43:51Z adlai: once git is viewed as just a bunch of overglorified tools for syncing merkle-checksummed file trees, github vanishes in a puff of social media 2017-12-02T10:52:25Z KZiemian: I have a question 2017-12-02T10:52:40Z KZiemian: I need to learn ccldoc for the Common Lisp Ultra Space 2017-12-02T10:52:43Z KZiemian: project 2017-12-02T10:53:20Z KZiemian: which is the easiest way to do that, because learning materials looks scarses and quite advanced 2017-12-02T10:53:51Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-12-02T11:02:35Z KZiemian quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-12-02T11:15:45Z KZiemian joined #ccl 2017-12-02T11:16:16Z KZiemian: anyone have a tips for learning ccldoc? 2017-12-02T11:17:54Z jackdaniel: if I had to do that, I would experiment and try to generate docs from interesting snippets where it's is used 2017-12-02T11:18:06Z jackdaniel: s/it's is/it is/ 2017-12-02T11:22:57Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: thank you for information 2017-12-02T11:23:24Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: now I will try to run it on sbcl 2017-12-02T11:23:52Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: phoe made something for that but I can't understand how to use it 2017-12-02T11:24:40Z pjb: KZiemian: perhaps you could have a look at how ccldoc is used to generate the documentation of ccl firs.t 2017-12-02T11:24:46Z pjb: This would be a good example. 2017-12-02T11:25:08Z pjb: Then if you have difficulties making it run on sbcl, ask phoe about it. (it is probably a small difficulty). 2017-12-02T11:26:23Z KZiemian: pbj: where can I find firs.t? 2017-12-02T11:26:41Z KZiemian: pbj: I google last time for ccldoc 2017-12-02T11:26:51Z KZiemian: but I don't find that file at any side? 2017-12-02T11:27:54Z pjb: s/firs.t/first./ 2017-12-02T11:28:28Z pjb: KZiemian: that would be in ccl sources. I would just download ccl, and see what Makefile there is. 2017-12-02T11:29:24Z pjb: KZiemian: the README in doc says: http://trac.clozure.com/ccldoc describes how to obtain and use the CCLDoc tool to format the manual from the CCLDoc source in the manual/ directory. 2017-12-02T11:29:24Z pjb: 2017-12-02T11:30:10Z pjb: https://ccl.clozure.com https://ccl.clozure.com/download.html 2017-12-02T11:30:50Z KZiemian: I obtain ccldoc yesterday 2017-12-02T11:30:57Z KZiemian: I stuck in the (ql:quickload :ccldoc) 2017-12-02T11:31:12Z KZiemian: he rise condition when I run it 2017-12-02T11:31:17Z pjb: Yes. This is why I'm telling you to use the ccl ccldoc, instead of using phoe's. 2017-12-02T11:31:29Z pjb: So read ccl documentation! 2017-12-02T11:31:38Z pjb: It teaches you how to use ccldoc. 2017-12-02T11:32:04Z pjb: Then when you're able to do it with ccl, you will be able to help phoe debug his port off ccldoc on sbcl. 2017-12-02T11:32:38Z KZiemian: I try to read documentation two times 2017-12-02T11:32:53Z KZiemian: but I always stauck in some place/something doesn't work 2017-12-02T11:33:03Z pjb: That's great. It means you know more about ccldoc than most of us, including myself! :-) 2017-12-02T11:33:29Z pjb: If you follow clozure instructions to use ccldoc and there's a problem, then report a bug. 2017-12-02T11:33:34Z jackdaniel: KZiemian: when you get stuck, get your hands dirty and experiment with simple examples 2017-12-02T11:33:36Z KZiemian: okey 2017-12-02T11:33:46Z KZiemian: that is probably easiest way to do 2017-12-02T11:35:52Z KZiemian: pjb: thank you 2017-12-02T11:36:25Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: thank for advaice, it look that I need go the dirtiest road because it is most straidforward 2017-12-02T11:37:09Z jackdaniel: getting hands dirty doesn't mean that the road is dirty. gaining experience over theory is the true way of programming tao. ;-) 2017-12-02T11:38:10Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: of course it is, I just need some tips to start with it 2017-12-02T11:38:26Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: running first program is always the hardest part 2017-12-02T11:45:39Z jackdaniel: KZiemian: I thought you hang out on #lisp-pl, but I can't find you on channel names 2017-12-02T12:06:33Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2017-12-02T12:12:05Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: I never be on #lisp-pl 2017-12-02T12:12:15Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: or maybe one 2017-12-02T12:12:22Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: *once 2017-12-02T12:12:46Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: not big reason, just a habit to look for people on #lisp 2017-12-02T12:19:00Z KZiemian: thak you for the help 2017-12-02T12:19:13Z KZiemian: I go installing ccl 2017-12-02T12:19:22Z KZiemian: and learning ccldoc 2017-12-02T12:19:35Z KZiemian: see you 2017-12-02T12:19:38Z KZiemian quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-12-02T12:58:42Z BitPuffin|osx joined #ccl 2017-12-02T14:16:01Z motersen joined #ccl 2017-12-02T14:24:35Z red-dot joined #ccl 2017-12-02T14:45:21Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-12-02T15:26:59Z palter joined #ccl 2017-12-02T15:43:37Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2017-12-02T16:01:09Z KZiemian joined #ccl 2017-12-02T16:13:30Z KZiemian: hey 2017-12-02T16:13:51Z KZiemian: can you help me with one think? 2017-12-02T16:13:58Z KZiemian: I try too run ccldoc 2017-12-02T16:14:24Z KZiemian: and page of documentation said to 2017-12-02T16:14:26Z KZiemian: run 2017-12-02T16:14:27Z KZiemian: (defparameter *d* (ccldoc:load-document "ccl:doc;manual;ccl.ccldoc")) 2017-12-02T16:14:33Z KZiemian: this work 2017-12-02T16:14:40Z KZiemian: but I want to create 2017-12-02T16:14:55Z KZiemian: html from ccldoc 2017-12-02T16:15:02Z KZiemian: in other catalog 2017-12-02T16:15:16Z KZiemian: say /hom/user/ccldoc/about.ccldoc 2017-12-02T16:15:29Z KZiemian: I have no idea 2017-12-02T16:15:44Z KZiemian: how to make this thing works 2017-12-02T16:15:55Z KZiemian: I broke my Emacs seven times 2017-12-02T16:16:03Z KZiemian: trying diffrent way 2017-12-02T16:16:35Z KZiemian: what is proper format for path string? 2017-12-02T16:17:00Z pjb: Have you tried: (ccldoc::output-html *d* "/tmp/ccl.html" :stylesheet "ccl.css") ? 2017-12-02T16:17:25Z pjb: Is your home dir at path "/hom/user/" ? 2017-12-02T16:17:49Z pjb: KZiemian: read: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/19_.htm 2017-12-02T16:18:16Z pjb: (you can use physical pathnames, which are like unix paths). 2017-12-02T16:22:58Z KZiemian: pjb: yes 2017-12-02T16:23:22Z KZiemian: it create ccl.html in any catalog I want 2017-12-02T16:23:59Z KZiemian: I have problem with creating *d* which is diffretn that than from "ccl:doc;manual;ccl.ccldoc" 2017-12-02T16:24:30Z pjb: just use a different pathname. 2017-12-02T16:24:47Z pjb: say: say "/hom/user/ccldoc/about.ccldoc" 2017-12-02T16:26:22Z pjb: Only, be sure you don't make any typo! 2017-12-02T16:46:49Z KZiemian: something insane is going on 2017-12-02T16:47:25Z KZiemian: I run (defparameter *d* (ccldoc:load-document path)) with legitame path to .ccldoc 2017-12-02T16:47:48Z KZiemian: and ccl put to me 2017-12-02T16:48:13Z KZiemian: 90 line from beging of this file 2017-12-02T16:48:16Z KZiemian: and [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR] 2017-12-02T16:50:50Z KZiemian: can be the case that .ccldoc is not stand alone file and I must load more? 2017-12-02T17:21:49Z pjb: KZiemian: usually, there's an error message explaining the error… 2017-12-02T17:25:15Z rumbler31: KZiemian: ccldoc uses code from ccl implementation itself. As phoe discovered, if you attempt to load it in sbcl, you will likely get several errors relating to missing symbols and the like. phoe started porting or stubbing those out in his version of ccldoc. So what *exactly* are you doing, and *what* error messages are you seeing? 2017-12-02T17:28:46Z motersen joined #ccl 2017-12-02T17:50:32Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-12-02T18:00:25Z KZiemian: pbj: only error I can find is: No arguments allowed in chapter reference: 2017-12-02T18:00:45Z KZiemian: rumbler31: I change my *inferior-lisp* to ccl 2017-12-02T18:01:17Z KZiemian: I find one .ccldoc that is loaded 2017-12-02T18:01:27Z KZiemian: I will try work around it 2017-12-02T18:26:57Z KZiemian: insenity is moving on 2017-12-02T18:27:10Z KZiemian: I check with PROB-FILe 2017-12-02T18:27:34Z KZiemian: that PATH is path to existing file 2017-12-02T18:27:49Z KZiemian: now after evaluating 2017-12-02T18:28:05Z KZiemian: (defparameter *d* (ccldoc:load-document PATH)) 2017-12-02T18:28:11Z KZiemian: my promt change from 2017-12-02T18:28:18Z KZiemian: CL-USER> 2017-12-02T18:28:29Z KZiemian: to CCLDOC> 2017-12-02T18:28:48Z KZiemian: and it looks that new REPL is opened 2017-12-02T18:39:19Z KZiemian: this is to much craizness for one day 2017-12-02T18:39:33Z KZiemian: (defparameter *d* (ccldoc:load-document "ccl:doc;manual;ccl.ccldoc")) 2017-12-02T18:39:36Z KZiemian: all right 2017-12-02T18:40:02Z KZiemian: (defparameter *d* (ccldoc:load-document good-path)) 2017-12-02T18:40:30Z KZiemian: new REPL is opened with prompt CCLDOC 2017-12-02T18:40:40Z KZiemian: anyone understand something about this? 2017-12-02T18:44:46Z jackdaniel: probably load-document doesn't bind *package*, so when it calls (in-package ccldoc) it affects your repl 2017-12-02T18:50:36Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: you are rigth after commenting out in-package 2017-12-02T18:50:56Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: this problem wanish but new errors are generated 2017-12-02T18:52:22Z KZiemian: anyone have simple idea how cure that? 2017-12-02T18:52:34Z KZiemian: if not I will stop for today and go back tomorrow 2017-12-02T18:53:54Z jackdaniel: (let ((*package* *package*)) (ccldoc:load-document path)) 2017-12-02T18:54:01Z jackdaniel: that should "cure" it 2017-12-02T18:54:14Z rme: KZiemian: you want to be using the ccldoc from https://github.com/Clozure/ccldoc 2017-12-02T18:55:01Z rme: If you downloaded it from Subversion, please re-fetch it from GitHub. (I just updated https://trac.clozure.com/ccldoc/ to say that) 2017-12-02T18:56:06Z KZiemian: rme: I try load ccldoc.ccldoc from this github repository, and most of my problems are about trying loading that 2017-12-02T18:56:14Z KZiemian: rme: I do something wrong? 2017-12-02T18:56:22Z rme: Let me try it myself right now. 2017-12-02T18:58:56Z rme: I went into my ccldoc clone, started ccl, did (load "home:quicklisp;setup"), then did (push "/Users/rme/ccl/ccldoc/source/" asdf:*central-registry*) so that ASDF would find it. 2017-12-02T18:59:13Z rme: (ql:quickload :ccldoc) loaded it, and then (defparameter *doc* (ccldoc:load-document "ccldoc.ccldoc")) worked. 2017-12-02T19:00:17Z rme: It did leave me in the ccldoc package because of the reason jackdaniel explained. 2017-12-02T19:01:19Z KZiemian: rme: I do something with subversion 2017-12-02T19:01:39Z KZiemian: rme: but I copy ccldoc.ccldoc from github to work on it 2017-12-02T19:02:02Z KZiemian: rme: I will try git on quicklisp 2017-12-02T19:02:23Z rme: Please use the sources from GitHub. They have fixes that the Subversion repo doesn't have. 2017-12-02T19:05:13Z KZiemian: rme: thank you, I remove old I use command from the page 2017-12-02T19:16:06Z KZiemian: thank you all for help 2017-12-02T19:16:14Z KZiemian: it now work 2017-12-02T19:17:32Z KZiemian: today this was to much fighting with strange code behavior 2017-12-02T19:17:39Z KZiemian: see you :) 2017-12-02T19:17:43Z KZiemian quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-12-02T19:18:47Z rme: if something is acting strangely, it's better ask about it rather than struggle with it. 2017-12-02T19:18:58Z rme: but you won't see that, since you left... 2017-12-02T19:31:05Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-12-02T22:02:19Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-12-03T00:39:12Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-12-03T01:29:12Z hhdave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-12-03T01:30:00Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-12-03T01:35:26Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-03T01:46:50Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-12-03T01:47:30Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-12-03T03:10:12Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-03T07:00:20Z red-dot joined #ccl 2017-12-03T08:14:39Z BitPuffin|osx joined #ccl 2017-12-03T11:42:23Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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(www.adiirc.com)) 2017-12-05T15:39:11Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2017-12-05T16:39:30Z rme: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/67 is the issue about package-local nicknames, by the way. 2017-12-05T17:01:10Z emaczen joined #ccl 2017-12-05T17:14:04Z emaczen: I'm having trouble with a stack overflow in CCL, but with SBCL it appears there is a tail call optimization. How can I get CCL to do the same optimization? 2017-12-05T17:15:08Z rme: ccl generally does tco at standard optimize settings. 2017-12-05T17:15:50Z rme: I don't remember off the top of my head when it won't. Maybe when debug is more than 1? 2017-12-05T17:16:27Z emaczen: How can I check my settings? 2017-12-05T17:16:39Z emaczen: (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (space 0) (debug 0) (safety 3))) -- I placed this in .ccl-init.lisp 2017-12-05T17:16:56Z rme: (declaration-information 'optimize) 2017-12-05T17:18:00Z emaczen: rme: Wow it toally ignores my optimization settings in .ccl-init.lisp? 2017-12-05T17:18:24Z emaczen: rme: How would I fix that? 2017-12-05T17:18:59Z rme: If you load some file with (declaim (optimize ...)), that will have persistent effects. 2017-12-05T17:19:35Z rme: I think there's a variable *load-preserves-optimization-settings* or something like that. you might want to set it to t. 2017-12-05T17:41:38Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-12-05T18:20:31Z milanj_ joined #ccl 2017-12-05T18:22:55Z milanj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-12-05T18:52:26Z milanj__ joined #ccl 2017-12-05T18:53:53Z milanj_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-12-05T19:56:51Z milanj__ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-12-05T20:50:22Z milanj__ joined #ccl 2017-12-05T23:13:30Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-12-05T23:47:03Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-12-06T01:31:57Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-12-06T02:07:41Z _rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-06T02:19:20Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-12-06T02:33:17Z red-dot joined #ccl 2017-12-06T02:41:07Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-12-06T02:49:29Z milanj__ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-12-06T02:49:53Z milanj__ joined #ccl 2017-12-06T02:50:14Z milanj__ quit (Client Quit) 2017-12-06T04:19:46Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-12-06T04:40:08Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-12-06T04:51:39Z milanj__ joined #ccl 2017-12-06T04:55:46Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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I hope you don't mind I have highlighted you with request for review here: https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/pull/37 ? 2017-12-10T05:53:32Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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Is there something simple I am missing? the implementation in hemlock seems to have a lot of moving parts 2017-12-15T22:04:21Z rme: You just have to implement it in the usual Cocoa way. 2017-12-15T22:05:54Z rme: Looking at the way hemlock "works" is not a good example for anything. 2017-12-15T22:06:10Z jmercouris: In other cocoa apps it seems to just work 2017-12-15T22:06:26Z jmercouris: when I press Cmd+v it pastes into my text-field in the repl 2017-12-15T22:06:32Z jmercouris: but when I compile as a standalone, that no longer works 2017-12-15T22:10:16Z rme: That's odd. 2017-12-15T22:10:30Z rme: Do you have an Edit menu that includes the items for copy/paste? 2017-12-15T22:11:23Z jmercouris: rme: No, literally no menu 2017-12-15T22:12:29Z rme: that's why, then. 2017-12-15T22:12:45Z jmercouris: That's strange, the menu enables and disables copy/paste? 2017-12-15T22:12:54Z jmercouris: I would have never imagined it would be related to having that menu 2017-12-15T22:13:13Z jmercouris: perhaps I will end up doing my own implementation of copy and paste then, not sure I want to faff around with making a menu 2017-12-15T22:13:21Z rme: The menu items process the shortcuts. 2017-12-15T22:13:42Z rme: I googled and found http://cocoa.thedizzyheights.com/2010/07/cut-copy-and-paste-in-lsuielement-applications/ 2017-12-15T22:14:23Z jmercouris: THat's slightly different 2017-12-15T22:14:34Z jmercouris: I do have a menu bar, it's just not populated with anything other than the title of my program 2017-12-15T22:14:59Z jmercouris: I think this is for applications that are un-alt-tabbable 2017-12-15T22:15:07Z jmercouris: Only those don't have a menu-bar 2017-12-15T22:15:35Z jmercouris: Oh, I just understood the purpose of you sending this 2017-12-15T22:15:37Z jmercouris: I am an idiot, sorry 2017-12-15T22:16:08Z rme: It's pretty easy just to add an edit menu. See code in ccl:cocoa-ide;menus.lisp and look for a function called @edit-menu 2017-12-15T22:16:44Z jmercouris: Ok, I'll keep that in mind 2017-12-15T22:16:52Z jmercouris: Thank you for your help 2017-12-15T22:17:09Z jmercouris: Btw, I don't know how free or busy you are, but I am always looking for critique, would you be interested in trying my program? 2017-12-15T22:18:33Z red-dot joined #ccl 2017-12-15T22:19:06Z rme: I can't make any promises, but what's your program? 2017-12-15T22:19:20Z jmercouris: rme: http://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT 2017-12-15T22:19:25Z jmercouris: it's a really super fast web browser 2017-12-15T22:20:30Z jmercouris: I'm sure you would cry if you looked at the code lol, but I think you could actually like using it 2017-12-15T22:21:21Z rme: Thanks. I'll bookmark it. 2017-12-15T22:21:39Z jmercouris: No problem, please let me know if you try it 2017-12-15T23:04:41Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-12-15T23:06:39Z rme: I wish I hadn't accidentally fried my Odroid C2. That was my only 64-bit ARM machine. 2017-12-15T23:19:15Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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(this is the version available in Quicklisp) 2017-12-16T20:23:45Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure how much it is advertised, but I was pointed at this tarball: ftp://clozure.com/pub/CLX/clx-060601.tar.gz from somewhere 2017-12-16T20:23:58Z jackdaniel: (by somewhere I mean from this issue thread: https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM/issues/334) 2017-12-16T20:30:13Z rme: I don't even know what the CLX situation is. 2017-12-16T20:30:44Z rme: It seems like it would be better not to have a CCL-specific CLX. 2017-12-16T20:32:27Z jackdaniel: my point exactly 2017-12-16T20:32:52Z jackdaniel: portable CLX is maintained in sharplispers repository (mostly by me) 2017-12-16T20:40:48Z rme: It sounds fine to me to prefer the sharplispers CLX, as long as it works as well as the CCL-specific one. I don't recall anywhere that we advertise the clx-060601.tar.gz archive, but if we do, I'd be happy to update it. 2017-12-16T20:41:21Z jackdaniel: as I've mentioned, I was pointed to it 2017-12-16T20:41:36Z jackdaniel: it didn't work as well, I've just backported some changes which fix that issue 2017-12-16T20:41:49Z jackdaniel: (at least they fix it on my host, still waiting for confirmation from other issue peers) 2017-12-16T20:43:37Z rme: I think CLX wants a store-conditional function. I remember that CCL has that for CLX's benefit. 2017-12-16T20:46:28Z jackdaniel: you mean cas operation? 2017-12-16T20:46:35Z jackdaniel: yes, this one is used 2017-12-16T22:23:17Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-12-16T22:45:47Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-12-17T01:38:03Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-12-17T03:02:52Z red-dot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-17T03:03:02Z red-dot joined #ccl 2017-12-17T03:13:37Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-12-17T04:14:30Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-12-17T05:19:10Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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(www.adiirc.com)) 2017-12-17T19:55:25Z red-dot joined #ccl 2017-12-17T20:08:02Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-12-17T20:08:31Z jmercouris: Is there a consistent way to get the (#/sharedApplication) for SLIME, and as a standalone application? 2017-12-17T20:12:24Z jackdaniel: you have to start a swank server from application directly 2017-12-17T20:12:38Z jackdaniel: I don't remember exact commands, ponder the web for them (swank package) 2017-12-17T20:12:44Z jmercouris: I've already set that up 2017-12-17T20:12:53Z jmercouris: but if I am understanding you correctly, you can't just load your system any more? 2017-12-17T20:13:05Z jmercouris: you have to start your application as a standalone always and incrementally develop that way? 2017-12-17T20:14:26Z jackdaniel: you still can save lisp image, why not? 2017-12-17T20:14:54Z jmercouris: I guess it doesn't truly matter 2017-12-17T20:15:06Z jmercouris: I just won't be able to slime-load-system "next" 2017-12-17T20:15:10Z jackdaniel: some implementations have limitation, that there must be only one thread running, not sure if it applies to ccl 2017-12-17T20:15:10Z jmercouris: which makes me a little sad 2017-12-17T20:15:28Z jackdaniel: uhm 2017-12-17T20:16:19Z jmercouris: I'm going to try to figure out a way around this 2017-12-17T20:19:23Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: ccl has a global called *nsapp*, setf'd in the IDE on startup 2017-12-17T20:19:37Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I can also setf it in my call to (call-in-initial-process) :) 2017-12-17T20:19:41Z jmercouris: oh this makes me so happy :D 2017-12-17T20:19:49Z jackdaniel: good for you 2017-12-17T20:20:01Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but if you are not, thank you 2017-12-17T20:21:17Z jackdaniel: I'm not a sarcastic person. If you want explanation, here goes: I'm glad you found your answer, I'm not overjoyed though (because I don't care that much) 2017-12-17T20:21:53Z jmercouris: Ah, fair enough, :) I just wasn't sure if you were mocking me or not, as "good for you" in the US is often used in this way 2017-12-17T20:27:47Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-12-17T20:55:11Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2017-12-17T20:56:10Z red-dot joined #ccl 2017-12-17T21:56:24Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2017-12-17T21:57:34Z red-dot joined #ccl 2017-12-17T22:18:39Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-12-17T22:57:32Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2017-12-17T22:58:11Z red-dot joined #ccl 2017-12-17T23:01:05Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-12-17T23:23:32Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-12-17T23:42:15Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-12-17T23:58:23Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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But why not just use ccl? 2017-12-21T14:54:05Z pjb: kolb: consider MCLGUI. 2017-12-21T14:54:14Z pjb: https://framagit.org/patchwork/mclgui 2017-12-21T14:55:39Z pjb: kolb: Now, you can choose between MCL (OpenMCL) and RMCL. MCL works on 680x0, so you'd need an old MacOS system (system 8 or system 9). RMCL is a powerpc port that can run in the bluebox on early versions of MacOSX and on old (powerpc) hardware. 2017-12-21T14:56:56Z pjb: If you have old Mac hardware, then you are legally entitled to the corresponding MacOS. Unfortunately AFAIK, they're not available for download from apple.com anymore. So you'd better locate floppies or CD/DVD to perform a clean installation. Or find them on Torrent, but this may be dangerous. 2017-12-21T14:58:54Z pjb: IIRC, OpenMCL (and then ccl of course) ran on MacOSX/ppc. This may be the easiest to run, if you don't want the antique experience. 2017-12-21T14:59:53Z kolb: https://code.google.com/archive/p/mcl/ <- this says "Open source version of the Macintosh Common Lisp development environment. Works on Intel and PPC computers with MacOSX 10.4 and up, including MacOSX 10.6 "Snow Leopard"." 2017-12-21T15:00:03Z kolb: I guess this is OpenMCL 2017-12-21T15:00:15Z pjb: Currently, MCLGUI is used by Patchwork, which is not too intensive on widgets. So not everything is implemented yet. Help would be very welcome to improve MCLGUI. 2017-12-21T15:00:33Z pjb: kolb: yes, this looks more like OpenMCL. 2017-12-21T15:01:17Z pjb: I based MCLGUI from rmcl. 2017-12-21T15:01:40Z kolb: I am mostly interested in the IDE that comes with OpenMCL, i.e. to see for myself what digitool was selling 2017-12-21T15:02:08Z pjb: This google mcl page distributes rmcl, not the old MCL on MacOS. 2017-12-21T15:02:46Z pjb: Rigth. The IDE is basically the same as ccl. The main difference is that ccl uses Hemlock, while mcl had an editor named Fred. 2017-12-21T15:03:10Z kolb: I see 2017-12-21T15:03:13Z pjb: Fred was based on the TextEdit toolbox manager. I've re-implemented it in MCLGUI, so a port of Fred would be envisageable. 2017-12-21T15:05:15Z kolb: oh there is even a qt version of portable hemlock in quicklisp! 2017-12-21T15:05:26Z kolb: interesting 2017-12-21T15:06:45Z pjb: Yes. But the fork of hemlock in ccl is different, adapted to MacOSX. 2017-12-21T15:07:26Z kolb: I am somewhat intrigued by the idea of a cross-platform CCL IDE as pitched by rme recently 2017-12-21T15:08:09Z pjb: If you want to try out mclgui with patchwork with ccl on MacOSX, instructions are here: https://framagit.org/patchwork/patchwork/blob/master/README.txt 2017-12-21T15:08:33Z pjb: There's already MCLIDE.app, perhaps this could be made portable? 2017-12-21T15:08:34Z kolb: so what’s the difference between mclgui and the ccl MacOS IDE? 2017-12-21T15:09:04Z pjb: mclgui is a CLOS library layering over the Macintosh Toolbox. 2017-12-21T15:09:32Z pjb: So you get the Macintosh CL experience of 1990+, on MacOSX in 2017 :-) 2017-12-21T15:10:27Z pjb: The purpose is to be able to port easily Mac Apps written in MCL on the Macintosh in the 90s to ccl on MacOSX today. 2017-12-21T15:11:07Z pjb: Happily, MCL apps didn't use the toolbox directly for the most part, they went thru this CLOS library. 2017-12-21T15:11:55Z pjb: bbl 2017-12-21T15:32:31Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-12-21T15:33:38Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-12-21T16:26:03Z KZiemian joined #ccl 2017-12-21T16:27:05Z KZiemian: hello world! 2017-12-21T16:27:20Z pjb: Hi! 2017-12-21T16:28:40Z KZiemian: pbj: Hi 2017-12-21T16:29:18Z KZiemian: if I can, I have a question to man resposible for mantaining ccldoc 2017-12-21T16:29:37Z KZiemian: I think that is rme? 2017-12-21T16:29:43Z pjb: The ported fork in quicklisp or the one in ccl? 2017-12-21T16:30:00Z pjb: rme is amongst the maintainers of ccl, AFAIK. 2017-12-21T16:30:24Z KZiemian: pbj: currently in ccl 2017-12-21T16:30:57Z KZiemian: problem is that when working on CLUS (do you hear about that?) 2017-12-21T16:30:59Z pjb: There are several ccl maintainers (even connected right now); you should probably just ask. 2017-12-21T16:31:28Z KZiemian: we decide to dig up in ccldoc deep enough to rewrite it 2017-12-21T16:31:34Z KZiemian: to suit our purposes 2017-12-21T16:31:58Z pjb: :-) 2017-12-21T16:32:27Z KZiemian: so as side effect we decide we can make comments and documentation to code that we understand 2017-12-21T16:33:01Z KZiemian: in that situation 2017-12-21T16:33:16Z KZiemian: because we now work in parrarel threds 2017-12-21T16:33:26Z KZiemian: and my task is to dig into ccldoc code 2017-12-21T16:33:53Z KZiemian: I want to ask people mantaing ccldoc 2017-12-21T16:34:02Z KZiemian: if they are interested in such effort 2017-12-21T16:34:05Z KZiemian: and if so 2017-12-21T16:34:17Z KZiemian: what standard of commenting we should use? 2017-12-21T16:35:58Z KZiemian: so I look for people which mantaning ccldoc now 2017-12-21T16:36:50Z pjb: Perhaps it would be a good question for the mailing list. mailto:openmcl-devel@clozure.com https://ccl.clozure.com 2017-12-21T16:37:53Z pjb: Maintainers are in the USA, so they usually answer later. 2017-12-21T16:38:33Z KZiemian: pbj: thank you for information 2017-12-21T16:38:52Z KZiemian: I have problem with lack of time recently 2017-12-21T16:38:58Z kolb: KZiemian: I would open an issue here https://github.com/Clozure/ccldoc 2017-12-21T16:39:15Z KZiemian: I need end 1 000 000 things and run out of steam 2017-12-21T16:39:24Z KZiemian: kolb: great! 2017-12-21T16:40:35Z pjb: The asynchronousity of email and mailing list may remove some time-related stress. 2017-12-21T16:41:30Z KZiemian: I will send mail and open an issue on GitHub 2017-12-21T16:41:43Z KZiemian: but maybe after Christmas 2017-12-21T16:42:00Z KZiemian: I need some break from all things that need ending soon 2017-12-21T16:42:31Z KZiemian: pbj, kolb: thank you for help 2017-12-21T16:42:41Z pjb: Merry Christmas! 2017-12-21T16:42:57Z KZiemian: Merry Christmas to all! 2017-12-21T16:43:08Z KZiemian: see you in the future 2017-12-21T16:43:15Z KZiemian quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-12-21T18:13:22Z rme: I'm happy for people to contribute to ccldoc (and to ccl). 2017-12-21T18:16:01Z rme: kolb: I have a VMware virtual machine with Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard Server on it. That will run the "RMCL" variant of MCL. (That's MCL hacked up by Gary Byers so that it will work under the Rosetta code translator). 2017-12-21T18:18:03Z rme: I have some copies of MCL (both for PowerPC and 68k), so if you are dedicated enough to get a working emulated Macintosh and need an MCL distribution, let me know. 2017-12-21T18:19:05Z rme: MCL is way better than the current CCL IDE, I think. 2017-12-21T19:11:37Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2017-12-21T19:19:50Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-12-21T20:02:37Z eschatologist: Yeah, but it doesn’t seem like it’d be hard for an enterprising developer with time on their hands to bring a lot of MCL goodness to the CCL IDE. :) 2017-12-21T20:03:03Z eschatologist: One thing I do wish was that the IDE talked to an external Lisp process by default. 2017-12-21T20:03:18Z eschatologist: (Or N external Lisp processes.) 2017-12-21T20:04:31Z eschatologist: (Possibly on other hosts.) 2017-12-21T20:10:50Z rme: I have some time on my hands. :-) 2017-12-21T20:11:59Z rme: I agree that being able to "tether" the IDE to an external (or remote) lisp is a valuable feature. 2017-12-21T20:13:47Z rme: I spent the past year at a Clojure job, but I left it a few weeks ago. 2017-12-21T20:16:15Z rme: I'm inclined to reboot the IDE entirely. 2017-12-21T20:31:05Z jmercouris: rme: Ah, so you want to redo the IDE? 2017-12-21T20:31:22Z jmercouris: rme: May I suggest instead working on FFIGEN to be able to make new headers instead :D 2017-12-21T20:31:28Z jmercouris: Not that I have any vested interest in that :P 2017-12-21T20:39:51Z eschatologist: ha 2017-12-21T20:39:58Z rme feels guilty 2017-12-21T20:40:31Z eschatologist: If the IDE is rebooted, any chance you'll be sure to use a platform-independent layer so someone could implement (say) a Gtk+ backend too? 2017-12-21T20:40:52Z eschatologist alas still can't actually contribute to the language or IDE due to conflict of interest 2017-12-21T20:42:15Z jmercouris: eschatologist: Platform independent layer sounds like a recipe for problems 2017-12-21T20:42:21Z rme: I vacillate between thinking I only care about the Macintosh, and trying to make something cross-platform. 2017-12-21T20:42:42Z jmercouris: I've made the mistake too many times with cross-platform promises throughout my life 2017-12-21T20:42:55Z jmercouris: they are always half baked solutions that make compromises 2017-12-21T20:43:03Z jmercouris: please just leave it as OSX Only 2017-12-21T20:43:21Z jmercouris: anyone who wants GTK can simply use the GTK bindings on Linux, this is the best "cross-platform" solution for an app out there 2017-12-21T20:43:38Z jmercouris: rme: Since you have more time, did you try my browser yet :D? 2017-12-21T20:44:08Z jmercouris: rme: Here's the download link: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/releases/download/0.06/nEXT.dmg 2017-12-21T20:44:16Z rme: haha 2017-12-21T20:44:44Z jmercouris: I sound like a used car salesman don't I? lol 2017-12-21T20:45:19Z jmercouris: I'm just so happy with it that I want people to try it you know? IDK, it's been a long time dream of mine, and it's finally becoming a piece of software (at least from the interface perspective), that I can be proud of 2017-12-21T20:45:36Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2017-12-21T20:45:39Z jmercouris: The codebase leaves a lot to be desired but it is constantly evolving 2017-12-21T20:46:47Z rme: I wouldn't even know what user-interface toolkit to use for, say, a Linux-based IDE. 2017-12-21T20:49:38Z rme: I think Windows is a suitable target for an IDE, but I don't think I have the energy to learn the Windows API. I've never really used Windows as my main computing system. 2017-12-21T20:51:22Z jmercouris: rme: GTK! 2017-12-21T20:51:24Z rme: Apple's choices sometimes annoy me, but the Mac is still the best thing in town, for me at least. 2017-12-21T20:54:14Z rme: Not OSF/Motif, which is still a shambling zombie horror that haunts my dreams? 2017-12-21T20:57:07Z rme: If I had to program using Motif again, I'd quit the computer business. 2017-12-21T21:11:18Z jmercouris: rme: Lol, GTK is a different kind of nightmare, people have spent a lot of time dressing it up though 2017-12-21T21:16:04Z eschatologist: rme: Just write a layer to insulate from the Mac APIs but still assume that layer works like the APIs. Then you get the best of both worlds, and anyone who implements a separate back-end also winds up with a nice Mac-like app. :D 2017-12-21T21:29:52Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-21T22:27:43Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-12-21T22:31:33Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-21T22:36:13Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-12-21T23:28:20Z kolb: rme: what about mcclim, which seems to get some traction lately? 2017-12-21T23:29:59Z rme: I need to learn more about it. 2017-12-21T23:30:07Z kolb: it can do menus, ttf fonts, other drawings. It looks a bit old but the GUI elements are rendered in lisp so its hackable. 2017-12-21T23:31:27Z kolb: don’t know how well Mac OS’s X11 works 2017-12-21T23:32:22Z rme: But I'm thinking of musicians, engineers, artists, and other people who are not already computer nerds, and who are kept away from Lisp by the incidental complexity of things like emacs and slime. 2017-12-21T23:32:43Z rme: I want to see if we can bring those people into the Lisp community. 2017-12-21T23:32:48Z kolb: I totally agree with that line of thinking 2017-12-21T23:33:18Z kolb: I think the editor/IDE should be as simple to use as notepad 2017-12-21T23:34:44Z kolb: ideally that is^^ 2017-12-21T23:34:49Z rme: Yes. This is not to say it needs to be dumbed-down, but it does need to be very easy to approach. 2017-12-21T23:36:06Z pjb: Implementing the IDE independently from the user interface would be a good idea. You could probably cooperate with beach for the APIs. 2017-12-21T23:38:50Z rme: I really should move to Bordeaux. 2017-12-21T23:39:46Z kolb: what’s keeping you? 2017-12-21T23:40:46Z rme: visa bureaucracy 2017-12-21T23:41:16Z pjb: Just take a flight to Afghanistan or Lybia. 2017-12-21T23:41:23Z pjb: No need for any paper (on the contrary). 2017-12-21T23:44:20Z rme: Of course, bureaucracy is an essential feature of France. 2017-12-21T23:44:40Z kolb: (-: 2017-12-21T23:51:43Z kolb: rme: how did the clojure gig go? I recently read about clojure’s new "spec" system that can do runtime invariant checking and(!) semi-automatically (guided?) generate quickcheck like tests for your specs. So far IIRC you can "spec" arbitrarily structured lists/maps/data and functions. That sounded very useful to me! 2017-12-21T23:53:05Z kolb: I really like that in CCL type declarations usually lead to more invariant assertions in code (with safety >= 1 I guess), this seems to be the logical extension of that. 2017-12-21T23:55:36Z rme: A lot of Clojure code that I have seen involves processing maps (hash tables). I think spec is fundamentally a way to define a sort of schema that the data in map (or sequences) must conform to. 2017-12-21T23:56:08Z rme: For instance, instead of a bunch of keyword arguments, Clojure functions will often take an options map. 2017-12-21T23:56:36Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-12-21T23:57:48Z rme: Anyway, my impression of Clojure is colored by the fact that people I was working with came to Lisp via Java, and I was coming to Java via Lisp. 2017-12-21T23:58:08Z rme: So, we sometimes didn't look at things quite the same way. 2017-12-22T00:00:57Z rme: We ended up passing around tons of json, and spec (and plumatic schema) is handy to ensure that the json you generate is valid (and that the input you receive is valid). 2017-12-22T00:03:58Z rme: The dumb joke about Clojure vs. CL that I like the best is that Clojure has "defn" and CL had "defun". Clojure doesn't like fun? 2017-12-22T00:43:33Z red-dot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-22T00:43:41Z red-dot joined #ccl 2017-12-22T01:09:55Z kolb: hmm I see :-) 2017-12-22T01:37:39Z kolb: so... I think if the IDE was cross platform (well, run on linux that is) I would probably be interested in using and hacking on it. 2017-12-22T01:38:04Z kolb: I get that cross-platform (like portability in general) is a hairy business. 2017-12-22T02:38:33Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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2017-12-25T14:56:51Z santakolb: what exactly is the issue with FFIGEN being based on gcc 4.0.0? New gcc extensions used in headers which we subsequently can’t parse? 2017-12-25T14:57:05Z santakolb is looking at https://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/BuildFFIGEN 2017-12-25T15:06:21Z santakolb: rme: btw I was able to get a used 2007 macbook off ebay, and hope to be able to install an oldish OSX on it, so I will get back to you rearding RMCL someday soon 2017-12-25T15:10:27Z santakolb: I see the patches ffigen4 applies to gcc are bitrotted? 2017-12-25T15:11:49Z santakolb: it tries to patch and can’t find a file objc-act.c.orig in my case 2017-12-25T18:48:55Z pjb: and gcc4 can't be compiled on newer macOS systems. 2017-12-25T18:49:38Z pjb: and gcc is not used anymore to compile macOS headers. 2017-12-25T18:49:43Z pjb: (now Apple uses clang). 2017-12-25T18:50:16Z pjb: and since those dumases of clang developers didn't put it under GPL, Apple doesn't publish its private extensions to clang. 2017-12-25T18:50:37Z pjb: so there's no way to patch a clang that can parse Apple headers, since we don't have the sources. 2017-12-25T18:51:29Z pjb: 🖕 2017-12-25T18:52:37Z pjb: Now, perhaps I'm too harsh, and perhaps in practice one can still parse Apple headers with a standard clang, but we'll never know until our apps crash. 2017-12-25T18:53:22Z rumbler31 quit 2017-12-25T18:54:55Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-25T19:06:54Z |3b|: are you sure those "clang developers" aren't apple to start with so could have kept their extensions private anyway? 2017-12-25T19:12:22Z pjb: AFAIK, clang was not originally an Apple project, nope. 2017-12-25T19:13:08Z pjb: Or if it was, then the fault falls back to LLVM developers. Same. 2017-12-25T19:16:01Z |3b|: wikipedia claims it was 2017-12-25T19:21:31Z pjb: Yes, it seems that clang was an Apple project. So I mean LLVM developers, who let it go as not GPL. 2017-12-25T19:21:52Z pjb: Anyways, failure to apply GPL leads us to this situation. 2017-12-25T19:22:31Z pjb: Perhaps libclang can be used on macOS? 2017-12-25T19:22:37Z |3b|: is there actually a problem or just hypothetical? 2017-12-25T19:22:52Z |3b| would assume it works since that's why apple wrote it in the first place 2017-12-25T19:23:40Z pjb: There are differences between the public clang you have eg. on Linux and the clang used on macOS. The question is whether they are significant for our purposes. 2017-12-25T19:25:31Z |3b|: no idea. i think i've seen people use (linux) libclang to generate FFI for normal C libs running on osx, so presumably at least handles some of it 2017-12-25T19:26:03Z |3b|: not sure about the objc stuff though, don't think that generator even tries to look at that 2017-12-25T19:27:54Z |3b|: actually i guess it does claim it should work, if untested ( https://github.com/rpav/c2ffi/ ) 2017-12-25T19:45:30Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-25T19:50:36Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-25T21:18:06Z santakolb: yeah I can’t build gcc-4.0.0 either 2017-12-25T21:19:11Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-12-25T21:26:43Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-25T22:34:03Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-25T23:23:28Z itruslove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-25T23:23:43Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-12-26T01:20:32Z pjb quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.1)) 2017-12-26T01:56:55Z itruslove joined #ccl 2017-12-26T02:28:50Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-26T03:40:17Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-12-26T04:05:38Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-26T08:09:41Z eschatologist: So far as I know there are no “unreleased clang extensions” involved in Apple’s headers. 2017-12-26T08:11:12Z eschatologist: In fact, you can build a complete toolchain yourself with LLVM/clang/Swift/lldb, Xcode against it. 2017-12-26T08:11:21Z eschatologist: And run Xcode against it. 2017-12-26T08:12:11Z eschatologist: That’s how a lot of work on the Swift compiler and on clang is done by the community. 2017-12-26T08:13:24Z eschatologist: IMO the best route forward for FFIgen would be to build something atop libclang that can be used to parse Apple’s headers on Macs, MS’s headers on Windows, Linux‘s headers, etc. 2017-12-26T08:14:06Z eschatologist: And there’s no worry about incompatible licensing because libclang fortunately isn’t GPL. 2017-12-26T09:01:41Z red-dot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-26T09:06:25Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-26T09:11:02Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-12-26T13:06:57Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-26T13:11:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-12-26T14:23:10Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-12-26T14:55:51Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-12-26T14:56:51Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-12-26T15:59:02Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-26T16:59:59Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-12-26T16:59:59Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2017-12-26T17:47:43Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-26T17:56:21Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2017-12-26T18:02:19Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-26T19:17:07Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-26T20:17:36Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-12-26T20:37:52Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-26T20:42:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-12-26T21:03:59Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-12-26T21:22:51Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-26T22:44:45Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-12-27T01:08:04Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-27T01:08:28Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-27T01:48:48Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-27T01:49:10Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-12-27T01:58:16Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-27T02:01:24Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-27T02:04:36Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-27T02:27:03Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-12-27T03:22:21Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-12-27T03:53:19Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-27T04:24:56Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-27T05:10:02Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-27T05:13:23Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-27T05:19:13Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-27T06:10:55Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-12-27T07:41:45Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-27T07:46:33Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-12-27T09:05:14Z jdz quit (Quit: ZNC - 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(www.adiirc.com)) 2017-12-31T22:33:11Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-12-31T22:33:24Z red-dot joined #ccl 2017-12-31T22:57:56Z emaczen joined #ccl 2017-12-31T22:58:44Z emaczen: are there any known bugs with ccl:save-application? 2017-12-31T22:58:54Z emaczen: I am using armcl on a 32 bit machine too 2017-12-31T23:00:08Z emaczen: I am currently getting a segmentation fault 2017-12-31T23:08:25Z rme: emaczen: The 1.12 development branch is not working correctly on the Raspberry Pi 3. 2017-12-31T23:09:05Z rme: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/22 2017-12-31T23:09:07Z emaczen: rme: I think I'm running 1.11 let me check 2017-12-31T23:09:16Z rme: The 1.11.5 release should work fine. 2017-12-31T23:09:42Z emaczen: I'm running 1.11-r16635 2017-12-31T23:10:06Z rme: Are you using a Raspberry Pi 3? 2017-12-31T23:10:11Z emaczen: rme: Yes 2017-12-31T23:10:53Z emaczen: I got save-application to work with one of my pis, and the only noticeable difference is the gcc version 2017-12-31T23:11:05Z emaczen: I tried changing that to an older version without any luck though 2017-12-31T23:11:37Z rme: Please try installing ccl-1.11.5-linuxarm.tar.gz from https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/releases/tag/v1.11.5 2017-12-31T23:11:58Z emaczen: rme: sure 2017-12-31T23:12:22Z rme: If you have trouble with that, let me know and I'll see about investigating. 2017-12-31T23:33:16Z emaczen: I'm going to have to wait till tomorrow. I can't get anything to download... 2017-12-31T23:33:29Z emaczen: I have really bad internet service 2017-12-31T23:33:29Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2017-12-31T23:34:52Z red-dot joined #ccl 2017-12-31T23:36:05Z rme: ok