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jmercouris: https://gist.github.com/12969941b704b5a07a841a530c2404d0 2017-11-01T14:43:45Z jmercouris: As far as I am aware, the package QL, never appears anywhere in my source :\ 2017-11-01T14:44:05Z jmercouris: Ah shit, that's quicklisp, I am an idiot 2017-11-01T14:44:12Z jmercouris: Forget everything I just said 2017-11-01T14:44:23Z jmercouris: I didn't mean to turn this into a rubber-duck channel, apologies 2017-11-01T16:11:32Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-11-01T16:11:42Z mrottenkolber quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-01T16:27:47Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-11-01T17:37:27Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-01T17:52:06Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-01T17:59:44Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-11-01T18:20:19Z pjb` joined #ccl 2017-11-01T18:23:10Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-01T18:40:57Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-01T18:45:58Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-01T19:08:10Z kini quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-11-01T19:11:59Z kini joined #ccl 2017-11-01T20:43:56Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-01T21:29:03Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-01T21:40:58Z emaczen` joined #ccl 2017-11-01T21:44:09Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-01T21:56:28Z jmercouris: xrme: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/14 2017-11-01T21:56:36Z jmercouris: What do you think? 2017-11-01T21:57:58Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-01T22:30:15Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-11-01T23:07:00Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2017-11-01T23:42:01Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-01T23:47:42Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-02T00:18:20Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-02T00:22:35Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T00:22:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-02T00:38:46Z pjb` joined #ccl 2017-11-02T00:40:06Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-02T00:43:28Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T01:26:05Z dim 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2017-11-02T18:20:01Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T18:26:41Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-11-02T18:27:08Z jmercouris: I'm still trying to get a hang of the ccl syntax, trying to convert: - (void)replaceSubview:(NSView *)oldView with:(NSView *)newView; 2017-11-02T18:27:41Z jmercouris: My best guess is (#/replaceSubview: ns-view old-view :with new-view) 2017-11-02T18:57:03Z xrme: (#/replaceSubview:with: enclosing-view old-child-view new-child-view) 2017-11-02T19:02:01Z jmercouris: xrme: thankyou 2017-11-02T19:16:41Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-02T19:21:05Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-02T19:49:12Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-11-02T20:17:23Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-02T20:21:41Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T20:23:47Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-02T20:32:02Z pjb: jmercouris: of course, you can also just write [superview replaceSubview:oldView with:newView] 2017-11-02T20:32:08Z pjb: with Objective-CL… 2017-11-02T20:32:33Z jmercouris: Yeah, I keep visiting that thread :D 2017-11-02T20:58:22Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-02T21:18:08Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-02T21:22:21Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T22:08:28Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T22:18:56Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-02T22:21:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-02T22:23:44Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-02T22:33:34Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-02T22:35:26Z sjl_ joined #ccl 2017-11-02T22:37:37Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-03T00:08:01Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T00:22:16Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-03T00:23:55Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-03T00:25:20Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-03T00:39:14Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-03T00:52:17Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 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found an example again :D 2017-11-03T17:48:55Z jmercouris: I swear, I spend hours looking for this stuff, and as soon as I post it into the channel, I somehow magically come across the answer or resource I need 2017-11-03T17:49:21Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T18:11:49Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-03T18:14:55Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-03T20:32:19Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-03T21:01:55Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-03T21:31:32Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-03T21:32:00Z sjl_ joined #ccl 2017-11-03T21:33:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-03T21:42:40Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-03T22:00:58Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-03T22:52:24Z sjl_ is now known as sjl 2017-11-03T23:13:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-03T23:40:29Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-03T23:51:59Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-03T23:56:49Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 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(Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:23:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T20:25:26Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-11-06T20:52:32Z emaczen joined #ccl 2017-11-06T20:53:07Z emaczen: http://sprunge.us/WVMH -- I'm having some issue with running out of memory 2017-11-06T20:53:33Z emaczen: The code in the paste just calls #'display-raw-pixels indefinitely in a loop and within 10 minutes or so it will consume all application memory 2017-11-06T20:54:29Z emaczen: There are no obvious memory allocations in #'display-raw-pixels, so is there something I need to do with respect to the garbage collector? 2017-11-06T20:59:32Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-06T21:11:51Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-06T21:58:22Z rumbler31: I have used (ccl:heap-utilization :unit :mb :classes t) and (room) 2017-11-06T21:58:51Z rumbler31: as (time was telling me that my inner loop was spending time in gc every so often, I increased the amount of memory allocated to the heap upon expansion with (ccl:set-lisp-heap-gc-threshold (* 3 1024 1024 1024)) 2017-11-06T21:59:40Z rumbler31: During some experimentation I did run into a case where it seemed like waaaaaaay too much memory was being allocated by ccl and I couldn't get a handle on it, so I changed my workflow and didn't encounter that problem again 2017-11-06T21:59:51Z astronavt[m] joined #ccl 2017-11-06T22:00:01Z emaczen: rumbler31: I'm just looking at the ActivityMonitor and my program starts at like 4 MB and gets to 1GB then 2GB within a few minutes... 2017-11-06T22:00:19Z emaczen: 40MB* 2017-11-06T22:00:33Z rumbler31: I think you can get the above functions to output to *trace-output* 2017-11-06T22:00:45Z rumbler31: there you can at least measure "what" is in the heap with heap-utilization 2017-11-06T22:01:28Z emaczen: rumbler31: do you use with-autorelease pool? 2017-11-06T22:01:39Z rumbler31: I don't use the obj c stuff at all 2017-11-06T22:03:42Z rumbler31: is your code in the paste current? 2017-11-06T22:03:47Z rumbler31: er, can you re-link me? 2017-11-06T22:03:48Z emaczen: rumbler31: yes 2017-11-06T22:03:55Z emaczen: http://sprunge.us/WVMH 2017-11-06T22:04:38Z emaczen: the first initialize-instance method spawns the thread which indefinitely calls #'display-raw-pixels 2017-11-06T22:08:33Z rumbler31: yea I can't say I have the eyes to notice anything obvious here 2017-11-06T22:08:43Z rumbler31: is there anything interesting in the console.log app? 2017-11-06T22:12:40Z emaczen: nothing that I can tell 2017-11-06T22:18:07Z rumbler31: first off, are you aware about the fact that osx prefers many gui activities to take place on the main thread? 2017-11-06T22:18:25Z emaczen: rumbler31: yes 2017-11-06T22:19:52Z emaczen: rumbler31: but which functions can only be called on the main thread? 2017-11-06T22:20:00Z rumbler31: I have no idea 2017-11-06T22:21:17Z emaczen: I'm only calling two objective-c methods: setPixel:atX:y: and setNeedsDisplay: 2017-11-06T22:21:33Z emaczen: only those two methods in my indefinite loop 2017-11-06T22:26:49Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-06T22:26:59Z rumbler31: my very uneducated guess is that you might need to wrap something in a with-autorelease-pool macro but I don't know where 2017-11-06T22:27:29Z emaczen: rumbler31: Yeah, I've been trying different places 2017-11-06T22:27:54Z rumbler31: and as you watch activity monitor grow ram, are you watching the output of heap-utilization? 2017-11-06T22:28:02Z emaczen: this one place I just tried seems to be a lot better 2017-11-06T22:28:15Z emaczen: rumbler31: I haven't looked at heap-utilization yet 2017-11-06T22:28:21Z rumbler31: I suspect that if you're leaking cocoa objects you *wont* see that same utilization from the lisp side 2017-11-06T22:31:31Z emaczen: rumbler31: It might be good to go! It is staying around 50MB 2017-11-06T22:31:41Z rumbler31: ah, what did you change? 2017-11-06T22:32:32Z emaczen: rumbler31: I was trying to put objc:with-autorelease-pool around #'bt:make-thread or around the call to #'continuously-display 2017-11-06T22:32:52Z emaczen: this time I put it inside the loop of #'continuously-display 2017-11-06T22:33:11Z emaczen: does not seem like it would matter to me... 2017-11-06T22:33:26Z rumbler31: so (defmethod ... (with-autorelease-pool... (loop ? 2017-11-06T22:33:46Z emaczen: I actually put the autorelease-pool inside the loop 2017-11-06T22:33:59Z rumbler31: so do .. (auto... (display 2017-11-06T22:34:13Z emaczen: Yep, that's what I did 2017-11-06T22:34:19Z rumbler31: cool 2017-11-06T22:43:09Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-11-06T22:45:30Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T23:00:04Z astronavt[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:04:31Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-06T23:04:37Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-06T23:13:56Z astronavt[m] joined #ccl 2017-11-06T23:22:24Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-11-06T23:35:56Z astronavt[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-06T23:37:37Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-11-06T23:37:45Z jmercouris: emaczen: I am fairly confident that functions which touch drawing must be on the main thread 2017-11-06T23:45:48Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-06T23:53:32Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-06T23:55:45Z astronavt[m] joined #ccl 2017-11-07T00:32:11Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-07T02:45:34Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-07T02:58:41Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-07T03:02:23Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-07T03:27:13Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-07T03:50:00Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-07T05:23:32Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-07T05:30:32Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T05:37:59Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-07T05:43:58Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T05:44:22Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-07T05:52:22Z emaczen joined #ccl 2017-11-07T06:19:30Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-07T06:27:26Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-07T06:34:27Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-07T06:55:46Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-07T07:20:50Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-07T07:24:28Z lonjil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-07T07:24:37Z lonjil joined #ccl 2017-11-07T07:43:21Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-07T08:43:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-07T08:55:25Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-11-07T08:58:51Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-07T09:09:03Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-07T09:09:21Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-07T09:15:36Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-07T09:19:45Z plathrop joined #ccl 2017-11-07T09:47:02Z plathrop left #ccl 2017-11-07T13:24:15Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-07T13:26:35Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-07T14:41:43Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-11-07T14:47:59Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-07T16:03:31Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-07T16:40:55Z rk[ghost] joined #ccl 2017-11-07T16:41:22Z rk[ghost]: er, how do i quit ccl instance? 2017-11-07T16:48:05Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-07T16:52:26Z rk[ghost]: ok, it seems :q then (quit) resolved it 2017-11-07T16:52:35Z rk[ghost] left #ccl 2017-11-07T16:54:18Z pjb: lurkers will learn that you can also just (ccl::quit) from the debugger. 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It looks like process-interrupt doesn't work on those threads. 2017-11-09T11:17:48Z edgar-rft joined #ccl 2017-11-09T12:39:12Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-11-09T13:45:23Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-11-09T13:47:53Z jmercouris: Hey everyone, I have a peculiar error: https://gist.github.com/31151d58e724ecea7e1f12421c405863 2017-11-09T13:48:16Z jmercouris: I can select: 0: [CONTINUE] Redefine existing method to have new type signature. and everything works, but as far as I am aware, the signature looks exactly the same 2017-11-09T13:48:53Z jmercouris: You might be wondering why I am doing this instead of subclassing NS-Application, this is because I want it to work regardless of whether somebody opens my application via the IDE, REPL, or as standalone 2017-11-09T13:51:52Z pjb: You cannot redefine Objective-C methods. You can replace an Objective-C method. 2017-11-09T13:52:13Z pjb: https://blog.newrelic.com/2014/04/16/right-way-to-swizzle/ 2017-11-09T13:52:45Z jmercouris: pjb: Is there a mechanism for this in ccl? 2017-11-09T13:53:13Z pjb: jmercouris: Perhaps one could expect defmethod to do the swizzling. What does the bridge intend to do? 2017-11-09T13:53:55Z jmercouris: pjb: What does the bridge intend to do? I don't know, but "Redefining the existing method", functions as one would expect and my new method is called 2017-11-09T13:54:08Z jmercouris: The error about the signature being different is what perplexes me 2017-11-09T13:54:43Z jmercouris: I know that in other cases I can redefine methods all day long without issue, I can type slime-eval-defun multiple times in another objc:defmethod, and it has no problem 2017-11-09T13:55:14Z pjb: I think the error message is confusing because of the difference of concepts between CLOS and Objective-C. 2017-11-09T13:55:39Z jmercouris: I think the error message is simply incorrect 2017-11-09T13:56:10Z pjb: It should be corrected. But it may also be that there's a bug in there. This is why I ask about the specifications (the intent) of the bridge. For this we'd have to read the documentation or the source and try to infer the specifications from the sources… 2017-11-09T13:56:28Z jmercouris: I think the message arises under the following condition: 1. a method has already been defined in objective-c code (i.e. NSApplication is a good example, sendEvent is already implmented in objective-c), try to override it in Lisp, and you have problems 2017-11-09T13:57:10Z jmercouris: If you define a method using defmethod in Lisp, then redefine it again using defmethod, this problem does not present itself 2017-11-09T14:02:40Z jmercouris: pjb: I'm looking at the docs, and there does not appear to be a clear description of the behavior 2017-11-09T14:02:52Z jmercouris: I'm looking through the source now instead 2017-11-09T14:03:11Z pjb: ok. We're typically in the situation where method swizzling must occur. Again, does the bridge try to do it and fail, or doesn't it consider it? It should and it should do it correctly. 2017-11-09T14:03:33Z pjb: Or if it's specified not to do it, then you must not redefine pre-existing Objective-C methods, and you may try to do the method swizzling yourself. 2017-11-09T14:03:43Z pjb: What do the doc or bridge specification say? 2017-11-09T14:03:55Z jmercouris: Yes, I will try to figure that out, I haven't found anything about that in the bridge specification 2017-11-09T14:05:04Z jmercouris: I did find an interesting comment in apropos-window.lisp 2017-11-09T14:05:12Z jmercouris: ;;; Diasable automatic KVO notifications, since having our class swizzled 2017-11-09T14:05:13Z jmercouris: ;;; out from underneath us confuses CLOS. (Leopard doesn't hose us, 2017-11-09T14:05:13Z jmercouris: ;;; and we can use automatic KVO notifications there.) 2017-11-09T14:05:29Z pjb: :-) 2017-11-09T14:17:58Z jmercouris: pjb: I finally found the magical macro in objc-runtime.lisp, Line 3034, defmacro objc:defmethod 2017-11-09T14:18:31Z jmercouris: Another nice comment from that macro: ;; Hack-o-rama 2017-11-09T14:26:02Z jmercouris: You know, I'm looking through that macro, and I cannot discern the intended function of: %declare-objc-method 2017-11-09T14:26:41Z jmercouris: The error occurs in: resolve-existing-objc-method-info 2017-11-09T14:27:18Z jmercouris: If you can help me understand that function, then we should see what it is trying to do, can you please take a look? 2017-11-09T14:27:40Z jmercouris: ccl/objc-bridge/bridge.lisp - function resolve-existing-objc-method-info, line - 1087 2017-11-09T14:37:12Z sjl_ joined #ccl 2017-11-09T14:43:46Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-09T14:45:52Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-09T15:48:17Z edgar-rft joined #ccl 2017-11-09T16:17:05Z jmercouris: How can I access instance properties in ccl? 2017-11-09T16:22:22Z jmercouris: Ok, just learned about synthesize etc, figured it out 2017-11-09T16:33:00Z emaczen joined #ccl 2017-11-09T16:52:15Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T17:45:33Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-09T18:38:01Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-11-09T19:44:35Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-09T20:50:30Z _rumbler31: I'm playing around with dynamic-extend declarations in some code. I'm having a hard time measuring if they're taking effect 2017-11-09T20:51:31Z _rumbler31: it seems like the code takes the same amount of time and space to execute when I add in the declarations and recompile, as when I remove them and recompile 2017-11-09T20:53:32Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-09T22:42:57Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-09T22:43:12Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-11-09T22:50:42Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-09T22:52:27Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-09T22:55:07Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-09T23:21:41Z jmercouris: how can I make an nsstring from a lisp string? 2017-11-09T23:22:12Z jmercouris: ccl::lisp-string-from-nsstring? 2017-11-09T23:22:31Z jmercouris: what's the opposite way? 2017-11-09T23:23:09Z jmercouris: I feel like I keep asking simple questions, sorry for the interruption, I need to really bookmark: https://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/CocoaBridgeTranslation 2017-11-09T23:24:58Z pjb: Depends. 2017-11-09T23:25:12Z pjb: There are several kinds of Objective-C strings. 2017-11-09T23:34:37Z jmercouris: What are the different kinds? 2017-11-09T23:34:51Z jmercouris: I thought there was only C strings and NSStrings? 2017-11-09T23:45:34Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-09T23:49:25Z pjb: jmercouris: NSString is a class cluster. When you create a NSString instance, you can get an instance of any number of subclasses. 2017-11-09T23:49:51Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-09T23:50:09Z pjb: jmercouris: there are at least three classes that are of interest: NXConstantString and NSMutableString and non mutable NSString. 2017-11-09T23:52:23Z pjb: Now to simplify, you may always convert lisp strings (be they literal strings or run-time built strings) as NSString. I use [NSString stringWithCString:bytes encoding:NSUTF8StringEncoding] for this, having converted the lisp string to a utf-8 byte sequence. 2017-11-09T23:53:10Z pjb: check com.informatimago.objective-cl::ns-mutable-string or com.informatimago.objective-cl:objc-string 2017-11-09T23:53:41Z pjb: and have a look at com.informatimago.objective-cl:lisp-string 2017-11-09T23:57:45Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-10T00:00:48Z jmercouris: ok, will do, thank you as always! 2017-11-10T00:24:03Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-10T00:58:41Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T01:45:15Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-11-10T02:09:25Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T02:11:18Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-10T02:25:22Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T02:41:17Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T03:32:39Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-10T03:49:19Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-10T03:50:42Z milanj quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-10T04:11:17Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T04:24:28Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-10T05:11:47Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-10T05:16:37Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-10T06:52:05Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T07:13:23Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-10T07:18:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T07:41:00Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-10T07:45:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T07:58:49Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-10T09:05:34Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-11-10T10:02:58Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-10T11:16:11Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-10T11:20:33Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T15:06:12Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-10T15:17:40Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-10T15:22:24Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-10T16:18:41Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-10T16:22:41Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T17:39:45Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T18:19:19Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-10T18:23:35Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T20:19:59Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-10T20:24:31Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T22:14:47Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-11-10T22:20:43Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-10T22:21:22Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-10T22:24:51Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T22:59:06Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-10T23:24:18Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-10T23:28:11Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-10T23:30:32Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-10T23:34:25Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-10T23:49:14Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-11-11T00:21:25Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-11T00:26:09Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T00:29:07Z adlai quit (Quit: Not all who wander are lost) 2017-11-11T00:32:05Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T03:40:57Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-11T04:22:40Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-11T04:27:13Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T06:23:45Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-11T06:28:54Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-11T06:36:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T07:11:57Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T09:22:27Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-11T09:23:24Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-11T09:45:13Z phoe joined #ccl 2017-11-11T10:41:20Z adlai joined #ccl 2017-11-11T10:47:22Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-11-11T13:02:10Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-11T13:42:30Z emaczen` joined #ccl 2017-11-11T13:44:46Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-11T17:09:57Z pjb` joined #ccl 2017-11-11T17:10:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T18:49:51Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-11T19:26:34Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-11T19:31:13Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-11T19:32:02Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-11T19:59:22Z emaczen` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-11-11T19:59:28Z emaczen joined #ccl 2017-11-11T19:59:28Z emaczen quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-11T20:00:08Z emaczen joined #ccl 2017-11-11T20:02:06Z emaczen: Why are there differences in my application when running it through the REPL vs using build-application? 2017-11-11T20:02:10Z emaczen: My example is the following 2017-11-11T20:03:09Z emaczen: I have an NSTableView that when I click different rows it is highlighted blue (which is default behavouir) 2017-11-11T20:03:49Z emaczen: This only happens in the REPL though, after I build the application the clicked row will not be highlighted 2017-11-11T20:04:56Z emaczen: It will become highlighted if there is some redrawing like after I click through the tabs (my application uses a NSTabView) 2017-11-11T20:13:49Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-11-11T21:06:09Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2017-11-11T21:07:36Z pjb: emaczen: you have to consider the various environments and times. 2017-11-11T21:07:54Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ba.htm 2017-11-11T21:08:46Z pjb: saving and booting executable images implies that all the foreign stuff you perform before saving the image is lost (foreign pointers become dead pointers). 2017-11-11T21:09:14Z pjb: So you have to re-initialize foreign stuff (re-open the shared libraries, initialize them, etc), at launch time. 2017-11-11T21:12:03Z pjb: emaczen: also, with latest OSX versions, I've noticed that it's more sensible on when the drawing is done: you have to be more careful with your threads and your drawing. It looks like you cannot do drawing from timers in the run loop anymore. 2017-11-11T21:12:32Z pjb: So read again all the Cocoa documentation about drawing and about threads. 2017-11-11T21:16:03Z mrottenkolber_ joined #ccl 2017-11-11T21:19:36Z mrottenkolber quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-11-11T21:20:09Z mrottenkolber_ is now known as mrottenkolber 2017-11-11T21:42:31Z emaczen: pjb: Does that mean we have to wait like 1 minute to (require :cocoa)? 2017-11-11T21:46:04Z pjb: No the times in questions are read-time, compilation-time, load-time, run-time. Also, you have a bunch of hooks called at various times, such as image saving time, image launching time, etc. 2017-11-11T22:20:57Z Intensity quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-11-11T22:29:40Z Intensity joined #ccl 2017-11-11T23:01:38Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-11T23:15:32Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-11T23:29:15Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-12T01:50:10Z |3b|`` is now known as |3b| 2017-11-12T02:30:51Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-12T04:06:29Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T04:07:51Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-12T04:16:33Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T04:18:15Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-12T06:47:02Z pierpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T09:13:19Z xrme quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 2017-11-12T13:40:59Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-12T13:55:18Z pierpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-12T14:26:17Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-12T20:34:09Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-12T20:47:12Z BitPuffin|osx joined #ccl 2017-11-12T23:06:06Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-12T23:53:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T00:21:16Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-13T00:55:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T01:06:38Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-13T01:49:49Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-13T02:28:33Z pjb` joined #ccl 2017-11-13T02:30:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T03:02:02Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2017-11-13T06:11:23Z itruslove quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-11-13T06:24:05Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T06:48:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T07:15:14Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-13T08:20:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T08:51:18Z itruslove joined #ccl 2017-11-13T09:08:13Z svetlyak40wt joined #ccl 2017-11-13T09:20:53Z svetlyak40wt quit 2017-11-13T09:37:49Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-13T09:44:32Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-13T10:26:24Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-13T10:37:10Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-11-13T10:42:50Z jmercouris: How can one use a subclassed NS-Application from the Repl? 2017-11-13T10:42:57Z jmercouris: E.g. I've already invoked (require :cocoa) 2017-11-13T11:10:07Z jmercouris: How do you call super in a method? 2017-11-13T11:12:05Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-13T11:26:26Z jmercouris: I tried this, but it doesn't want to work: https://gist.github.com/c0bf8f3ec05283c6cea6429efafc76f2 2017-11-13T11:30:46Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: (call-next-method) is equivalent to calling super 2017-11-13T11:34:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T11:47:22Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-13T11:55:24Z pjb: '@[NextApplication method:(sendEvent:(:id)event) resultType:(:void) body:[super sendEvent: event]] --> (com.informatimago.objective-cl::define-objc-method ((:void :send-event (:id event)) next-application) (objc:send-super :send-event event)) 2017-11-13T11:56:51Z pjb: then it expands to detailed ccl stuff… 2017-11-13T12:42:19Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: It didn't like me calling (call-next-method), that's actually what I tried first 2017-11-13T12:42:34Z jmercouris: Maybe something about the runtime not being fully setup when sendEvent is invoked for the first time 2017-11-13T12:42:58Z jmercouris: pjb: I don't understand what your message contains, is that the expansion of my (send)? 2017-11-13T12:48:14Z jmercouris: pjb: Oh I just re-read your message several times, I get it now 2017-11-13T12:53:43Z pjb: jmercouris: I don't use objc:defmethod. 2017-11-13T12:54:30Z jmercouris: pjb: Do you use some utility from objective-cl? 2017-11-13T12:54:42Z pjb: I use all of objective-cl. 2017-11-13T12:54:53Z jmercouris: so you are using define-objc-method then instead 2017-11-13T12:54:59Z pjb: Yes. 2017-11-13T12:55:04Z jmercouris: pjb: Earlier you had spoke that it would be trivial to implement blocks 2017-11-13T12:55:14Z jmercouris: to instead use the observer method 2017-11-13T12:55:21Z pjb: (defmacro define-objc-method ((selector-arg class-arg) &body body &environment env) (ccl::objc-method-definition-form nil selector-arg class-arg body env)) 2017-11-13T12:55:42Z jmercouris: how much work do you think it would take to do that? 2017-11-13T12:55:53Z pjb: Let's say two days. 2017-11-13T12:55:53Z jmercouris: 2-3 days? do you think I could do it? 2017-11-13T12:55:56Z pjb: yes. 2017-11-13T12:56:22Z jmercouris: hm 2017-11-13T12:56:36Z pjb: You don't need to support all the possibilities of the block C API. Just use it to implement calling CL closures from block trampolines. 2017-11-13T12:57:07Z jmercouris: I'll investigate, I don't know anything about blocks 2017-11-13T12:57:13Z jmercouris: I've only used them as a user in the past 2017-11-13T12:57:41Z jmercouris: Overriding sendEvent seems like the best way of doing it 2017-11-13T12:57:42Z pjb: And if you have time, to wrap blocks in a CL closure so we may call them (but then you would have to deal with more details, more introspection of the block C structures). 2017-11-13T12:58:06Z pjb: Yes, there shouldn't be any problem with overriding sendEvent: in a subclass. 2017-11-13T12:58:10Z jmercouris: Unfortunately though, to override sendEvent, you have to have your own subclass of NSApplication 2017-11-13T12:58:21Z pjb: yes. 2017-11-13T12:58:22Z jmercouris: Which means, if I fire up Slime, and then run (require :cocoa) 2017-11-13T12:58:29Z jmercouris: I've alrady got an NSApplication that is the wrong instance 2017-11-13T12:58:37Z jmercouris: s/instance/class 2017-11-13T12:58:48Z jmercouris: I'd want it to be my Custom-NS-Application 2017-11-13T12:59:37Z jmercouris: There's a way around this though, you could have every user change their .ccl-init.lisp file, and you could shadow some things 2017-11-13T12:59:49Z jmercouris: I'll brb, I need to think about this more 2017-11-13T13:08:02Z jmercouris: pjb: have you tried to get objective-cl merged into ccl? 2017-11-13T13:08:59Z pjb: Nope. 2017-11-13T13:09:11Z pjb: It would need more work. 2017-11-13T13:09:52Z pjb: For example, for now the way types are handled in the parameter lists and results is not satisfactory. 2017-11-13T13:10:24Z pjb: There are problems with literal strings (we already talked about that). 2017-11-13T13:10:26Z pjb: etc. 2017-11-13T13:11:20Z pjb: We may also want to provide more @ syntax or automatic conversion for literals, like in swift. 2017-11-13T13:13:48Z jmercouris: I see, so basically there are some barriers to it being "perfect" 2017-11-13T13:14:04Z pjb: Yes. 2017-11-13T13:14:17Z pjb: It's usable and useful, but you still need to know what you're doing… 2017-11-13T13:14:26Z jmercouris: I've noticed a lot of cruft in CCL 2017-11-13T13:14:31Z jmercouris: a lot of things in the repo that are now obsolte 2017-11-13T13:14:40Z jmercouris: I guess a consequence of using subversion so long ago 2017-11-13T13:14:53Z pjb: Of course, ccl is an old implementation. 2017-11-13T13:15:40Z jmercouris: I think for now, I must just override send-event 2017-11-13T13:15:47Z jmercouris: Doing the block thing is way beyond me at the present time 2017-11-13T13:15:57Z jmercouris: Perhaps it would be 2 days of work for you, but I could easily see it consuming 2 weeks of my time 2017-11-13T13:16:22Z jmercouris: Especially because I would then have to make a PR and get it merged before I would even want to use it in my codebase 2017-11-13T13:20:02Z jmercouris: Yeah, the ns-application subclassing will be the way to go, I'll let you all know if I figure out a nice way to load a custom ns-application even after having started the CCL process, I have a feeling there is a way 2017-11-13T13:20:53Z jmercouris: I mean, there is definitely a way to shadow the startup events from (require :cocoa), I mean more so in the sense of a way to handle the fact that my ASD file loads cocoa before executing any of my code 2017-11-13T13:34:40Z pjb: Notice that you never said what was wrong with your objc:defmethod… 2017-11-13T13:36:10Z jmercouris: pjb: Yeah, I still haven't figured that out 2017-11-13T13:36:19Z jmercouris: But, there is still one more problem with that methodlogy 2017-11-13T13:36:30Z jmercouris: I could not call the super retaining the original implementation 2017-11-13T13:36:45Z jmercouris: I only want to override some events sometimes, not rewrite the code to handle all of them 2017-11-13T13:37:48Z jmercouris: Maybe I can do something like this though (defparameter old-send-event (lambda (event) (#/SendEvent: nsapp event))), and THEN override sendEvent 2017-11-13T13:37:54Z jmercouris: so I can still call the old one 2017-11-13T13:38:55Z jmercouris: pjb: Just to clarify, you are referring to the problem I was working on a few days ago, yes? 2017-11-13T13:39:22Z jmercouris: Where I was directly trying to override (objc:defmethod (#/sendEvent: :void) ((self ns:ns-application) event)) yeah? 2017-11-13T13:40:52Z pjb: I tried this, but it doesn't want to work: https://gist.github.com/c0bf8f3ec05283c6cea6429efafc76f2 2017-11-13T13:40:54Z pjb: Why??? 2017-11-13T13:42:17Z jmercouris: pjb: You know, I really have no idea why that didn't work, it also really perplexed me that call-next-method wasn't working, so I restarted CCL, and then (call-next-method event) started working 2017-11-13T13:42:20Z jmercouris: so I just left it at that 2017-11-13T13:42:37Z jmercouris: Perhaps I had done something earlier that affected the image, and I didn't know about it 2017-11-13T13:42:58Z pjb: Obviously you need to call super, call-next-method is CLOS not Objective-C! 2017-11-13T13:43:28Z jmercouris: What you say is true, which is what makes it even stranger that it works 2017-11-13T13:43:31Z pjb: So in your defmethod, you don't have to send-super all the time. Process the event and call send-super only by default. 2017-11-13T13:43:50Z pjb: It's not cl:defmethod, it's objc:defmethod. 2017-11-13T13:44:15Z pjb: This is a reason why I prefer @[… method: … resultType: … body: …] 2017-11-13T13:44:20Z jmercouris: I have a like "next-event-process" utility for keyboard events 2017-11-13T13:44:29Z jmercouris: and it returns false when it can't handle an event 2017-11-13T13:44:36Z jmercouris: at which piont it should go through the standard event handling chain 2017-11-13T13:44:52Z jmercouris: pjb: How can I install objective-cl? is there an install guide? 2017-11-13T13:46:32Z pjb: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/objcl/documentation.pdf 2017-11-13T13:47:22Z pjb: basically: cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects ; mkdir -p com ; git clone git@github.com:informatimago/lisp.git com/informatimago 2017-11-13T13:47:33Z pjb: then (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.objective-cl) 2017-11-13T13:51:49Z jmercouris: pjb: Thanks for the instructions, I'll try giving it a spin 2017-11-13T13:52:31Z pjb: http://www.cliki.net/com.informatimago.hangman 2017-11-13T14:43:52Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-11-13T15:14:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T15:15:22Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-13T15:28:25Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-13T15:36:11Z BitPuffin|osx joined #ccl 2017-11-13T16:32:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T16:39:21Z _rumbler31 quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-11-13T16:44:13Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-13T16:48:48Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-13T17:42:10Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-13T17:44:33Z jmercouris: pjb xrme Can either of you think of a way that I can set a custom NSApplication class when invoking (require :cocoa)? 2017-11-13T18:00:48Z pjb: jmercouris: you have the sources! 2017-11-13T18:01:04Z jmercouris: pjb: A constant source of frustration :P 2017-11-13T18:01:22Z jmercouris: Ah, I'm just trying for so many hours each day to understand 2017-11-13T18:01:33Z jmercouris: I guess it took a long time to build all of this stuff, and I am trying to do too quickly 2017-11-13T18:02:49Z pjb: grep -nHiR NSApplication /usr/local/src/ccl-1.11/ 2017-11-13T18:03:42Z pjb: /usr/local/src/ccl-1.11/mac-ui/ccl-application.lisp has a interesting comment, and you see ccl-application is a subclass of NSApplication. 2017-11-13T18:04:04Z pjb: then: 2017-11-13T18:04:14Z pjb: grep -nHiR ccl-application /usr/local/src/ccl-1.11/ 2017-11-13T18:04:21Z pjb: and then you see that /usr/local/src/ccl-1.11/cocoa-ide/ide-application.lisp:18:(defclass ide-application (ccl::ccl-application) 2017-11-13T18:05:31Z pjb: [NSApplication sharedApplication] --> # (#x1439CE0)> 2017-11-13T18:05:59Z pjb: so with require :cocoa, your NSApp is already the instance of the subclass of a subclass of NSApplication! 2017-11-13T18:06:15Z pjb: jmercouris: so you didn't know about grep? 2017-11-13T18:07:42Z jmercouris: pjb: I know all about grep, I've been looking for NS-Application this whole time, not NSApplication 2017-11-13T18:08:21Z pjb: Well you have to be careful with spelling. If you have doubts, use .* 2017-11-13T18:08:31Z pjb: and -i NS.*Application 2017-11-13T18:08:39Z jmercouris: Yeah, that was my mistake :\ 2017-11-13T18:08:51Z jmercouris: Ok, I know what to do now, thank you! :D 2017-11-13T18:09:05Z jmercouris: Or at least, I have a good place to get started 2017-11-13T18:12:44Z pjb: try also: grep -nHiR 'make-instance.*application' /usr/local/src/ccl-1.11/ 2017-11-13T18:18:08Z pjb: But if you want to change it at load time, when you (require :cocoa), I think more analysis of the sources loaded from /usr/local/src/ccl-1.11/cocoa-ide/cocoa.lisp is needed. 2017-11-13T18:18:40Z pjb: I haven't find where the application is created yet. Perhaps they go thru the main bundle. 2017-11-13T18:21:02Z pjb: when you compile :cocoa, it creates the 'temp bundle64.app' in the ccl sources. /usr/local/src/ccl-1.11/temp bundle64.app 2017-11-13T18:21:34Z pjb: and in there, in Contents/Info.plis, you have NSPrincipalClassIDEApplication 2017-11-13T18:21:34Z pjb: 2017-11-13T18:22:23Z jmercouris: Yeah, that's true, that's actually how they do it in their demo app 2017-11-13T18:22:31Z jmercouris: they read in from the info plist file 2017-11-13T18:22:37Z jmercouris: and that's actually how they load the cocoa application 2017-11-13T18:23:00Z pjb: in cocoa-window.lisp in init-cocoa-ide then (open-main-bundle). 2017-11-13T18:23:11Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-11-13T18:23:27Z pjb: and get the NSPrincialClass then instanciate it with -sharedApplication. 2017-11-13T18:23:44Z jmercouris: This is what they do: https://gist.github.com/fcc9223a7c681fa07084ba0fb8b42887 2017-11-13T18:23:49Z jmercouris: At least in their demo app compilation 2017-11-13T18:24:08Z pjb: So one way could be to patch init-cocoa-ide, to use a different class, when you want to have fun while developping. 2017-11-13T18:24:21Z jmercouris: Yeah, that is what I will have to do I think :| 2017-11-13T18:24:36Z pjb: Otherwise the problem would be to have loaded your subclass before calling init-cocoa-ide, which is called when you require :cocoa :-) 2017-11-13T18:24:37Z jmercouris: Ah well, ASDF bites me again 2017-11-13T18:24:54Z jmercouris: Alright, it seems I need to chain ASDF files at the end of the day 2017-11-13T18:25:05Z jmercouris: because of course my ASD requires cocoa, AND THEN loads all of my source 2017-11-13T18:25:21Z jmercouris: But how can I load my subclass without having required cocoa... hmm 2017-11-13T18:25:42Z jmercouris: I've got to go shopping for dinner, brb 2017-11-13T18:25:55Z jmercouris: and cook actually, so maybe 2 hours or so 2017-11-13T18:25:59Z jmercouris: thank you again for your help pascal! 2017-11-13T18:28:44Z pjb: You can't. To do that I would advise to patch init-cocoa-ide 2017-11-13T18:30:15Z pjb: Actually, it's called from start-cocoa-ide, so better patch start-cocoa-ide. 2017-11-13T18:32:04Z pjb: (gui::start-cocoa-ide) is called from cocoa.lisp. So you could (defvar cl-user::*disable-start-cocoa-ide*) and replace (setq *NSApp* (init-cocoa-ide)) by (defun start-cocoa-ide … (unless cl-user::*disable-start-cocoa-ide* (setq *NSApp* (init-cocoa-ide))) …) 2017-11-13T18:32:38Z pjb: Then you would do: (defparameter cl-user::*disable-start-cocoa-ide* t) (require :cocoa) (ql:quickload :your-ns-application-subclass) (gui::start-cocoa-ide) 2017-11-13T18:33:46Z pjb: err, nope, I mean patch cocoa.lisp and replace (gui::start-cocoa-ide) by (defvar cl-user::*disable-start-cocoa-ide*) (unless cl-user::*disable-start-cocoa-ide* (gui::start-cocoa-ide)) 2017-11-13T18:34:25Z pjb: Sometimes I have stuff in the output buffers that is typed before I can flush it… 2017-11-13T18:39:51Z gendl quit 2017-11-13T18:40:25Z gendl joined #ccl 2017-11-13T21:23:25Z jmercouris quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T21:23:40Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-11-13T21:23:57Z jmercouris: pjb: In the output buffers? You mean within your head or within your irc client? 2017-11-13T21:25:05Z jmercouris: pjb: When you say patch, do you mean shadow? 2017-11-13T21:32:29Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-13T21:50:59Z xrme quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-13T21:51:00Z alms_clozure quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-13T21:51:45Z xrme_ joined #ccl 2017-11-13T21:51:46Z alms_clozure_ joined #ccl 2017-11-13T21:51:47Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-13T21:51:53Z alms_clozure_ is now known as alms_clozure 2017-11-13T21:51:56Z xrme_ is now known as xrme 2017-11-13T22:00:22Z astronavt[m] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-13T22:04:59Z pjb: jmercouris: in my head :-) 2017-11-13T22:05:11Z pjb: jmercouris: modify the source! 2017-11-13T22:05:50Z pjb: alternatively, cp cocoa.lisp jmercouris-cocoa.lisp ; emacs jmercouris-cocoa.lisp ; and then use (require :jmercouris-cocoa) 2017-11-13T22:06:52Z pjb: alternatively, cp cocoa.lisp ${jmercouris_project}/cocoa.lisp ; emacs ${jmercouris_project}/cocoa.lisp ; and then use (load "jmercouris_project/cocoa.lisp") ; <- or put it in your asdf file! 2017-11-13T22:07:15Z pjb: well the later may need more intensive modification, since now you have to tell it where to find the cocoa sources. 2017-11-13T22:07:30Z astronavt[m] joined #ccl 2017-11-13T22:22:08Z jmercouris: hmm so literally patch, yeah that is more or less what I wanted to avoid 2017-11-13T22:22:21Z jmercouris: I wanted people to be able to just use my source without having to modify CCL itself 2017-11-13T22:22:26Z jmercouris: but, as they say in german, so ist das 2017-11-13T22:26:12Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T22:39:09Z pjb: Then don't use ccl cocoa! 2017-11-13T22:39:14Z pjb: Write your own! 2017-11-13T22:39:23Z pjb: eg. by copying ccl cocoa-ide directory. 2017-11-13T22:41:48Z jmercouris: hmmm, that's a bit extreme, but it could be done 2017-11-13T22:42:32Z pjb: It's really easy to do. 2017-11-13T22:44:52Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-13T22:45:00Z jmercouris: Ok I'll try it, thank you 2017-11-13T22:45:57Z pjb: The path to the cocoa-ide can be found with a logical pathname. You can copy the directory, and patch cocoa.lisp with a simple lisp script. Then you can load the patched version. 2017-11-13T22:48:33Z jmercouris: I could also add it to my ccl-init file right? 2017-11-13T22:48:57Z jmercouris: I mean my .ccl-ide-init.lisp file 2017-11-13T22:49:44Z pjb: not if you want people to use it. 2017-11-13T22:50:16Z jmercouris: Yes, sure 2017-11-13T22:51:01Z jmercouris: but I'm saying I could make something like jmercouris-cocoa-ide, and then do (push pathname "cocoa-xyz") *module-search-path*) 2017-11-13T22:51:19Z jmercouris: that would be a relatively frictionless way of doing things I think 2017-11-13T22:51:29Z pjb: yes 2017-11-13T22:52:52Z jmercouris: I believe ccl-ide-init.lisp is called before the actual setup of the nsapplication 2017-11-13T22:57:28Z jmercouris: Ok, just looked at the source, I'm afraid I was wrong 2017-11-13T22:58:52Z jmercouris: Aha, but I know how I can do it with just one file I think 2017-11-13T23:09:59Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-11-13T23:37:17Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-13T23:38:07Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T23:41:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-13T23:47:15Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-13T23:52:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-13T23:53:05Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T00:05:08Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-14T00:45:16Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-11-14T00:46:41Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-14T01:57:12Z mdc_mobile joined #ccl 2017-11-14T02:30:57Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T02:47:11Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-14T02:51:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T03:11:56Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-14T03:30:07Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T04:07:46Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-14T04:30:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T04:57:42Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-14T05:31:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T09:08:08Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-14T09:08:40Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-14T09:22:05Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-14T10:19:08Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-11-14T10:54:16Z mrottenkolber quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2017-11-14T10:57:39Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-11-14T10:58:03Z mrottenkolber is now known as Guest33527 2017-11-14T11:02:02Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-11-14T11:08:48Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T11:11:24Z Guest33527 left #ccl 2017-11-14T11:12:53Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-11-14T12:36:32Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-14T14:46:21Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-11-14T14:54:25Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T15:02:48Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-14T16:12:22Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-14T16:17:54Z jdz joined #ccl 2017-11-14T16:21:12Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T16:30:42Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-14T17:26:02Z emaczen: I'm having problems with save-application that I 2017-11-14T17:26:08Z emaczen: I've never had before. 2017-11-14T17:26:21Z emaczen: Does save-application work with armcl and 32 bit systems? 2017-11-14T17:26:48Z emaczen: this is the only difference with my use of save-application before and now 2017-11-14T17:27:36Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-11-14T17:34:55Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T17:35:08Z pjb: I doubt it. save-application is to save a MacOSX application. 2017-11-14T17:37:07Z pjb: but perhaps I'm wrong I see nothing MacOSX specific in ccl:save-application. 2017-11-14T17:37:33Z jmercouris: pjb: I think you can produce a Linux binary with save-application as well 2017-11-14T17:37:34Z emaczen: pjb: Yeah, I've used ccl:save-application on linux before 2017-11-14T17:37:47Z jmercouris: It just persists the image to disk and then they should be able to load it with the right kernel 2017-11-14T17:37:59Z jmercouris: Is it possible to cross compile in this way? 2017-11-14T17:38:09Z jmercouris: I don't know how much the kernels vary in their implementation 2017-11-14T17:38:36Z pjb: and there's a %%save-application in arm-misc.lisp so… 2017-11-14T17:38:47Z emaczen: pjb: what does that mean? 2017-11-14T17:39:03Z pjb: It means that it invokes the application saving thru a tracp. 2017-11-14T17:39:06Z pjb: trap 2017-11-14T17:39:58Z emaczen: pjb: Oh maybe it is having problems with loading the foreign library? 2017-11-14T17:44:02Z pjb: Perhaps. There's all the code required, it seems, so it should be ok. 2017-11-14T17:47:23Z emaczen: pjb: The only error message I get is segmentation fault -- what else can I try or where else should I look? 2017-11-14T17:51:00Z pjb: you run it under gdb or lldb to find where the segmentation fault occurs. 2017-11-14T17:54:06Z jmercouris: emaczen: Not sure about linux, but when i start an OSX application via the command line, the stdout will go to that TTY, so that I can see what error might cause the seg fault, or I get a stacktrace or something 2017-11-14T17:56:13Z xrme: "save-application" could more properly be named "save-heap-image". It should work on all platforms. 2017-11-14T18:01:20Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-11-14T18:04:32Z emaczen: will someone explain which environments I need to worry about when using save-application? 2017-11-14T18:28:39Z jmercouris: emaczen: What's the question exactly? What do you mean by environments? 2017-11-14T18:37:41Z emaczen: jmercouris: I'm getting a "dead mac pointer" in my OSX application after I build it 2017-11-14T18:38:00Z jmercouris: emaczen: Did you try running it in the way I said? 2017-11-14T18:38:01Z emaczen: my question earlier was linux and I've decided to look at that later 2017-11-14T18:38:04Z sjl__ joined #ccl 2017-11-14T18:38:26Z jmercouris: Also, what does your application bundle look like? Do you have all of the files copied into there? 2017-11-14T18:38:52Z emaczen: I'm copying an image there now from the generic icons folder 2017-11-14T18:39:24Z jmercouris: emaczen: What about the plist file? 2017-11-14T18:39:31Z sjl quit (Disconnected by services) 2017-11-14T18:39:36Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2017-11-14T18:39:58Z pjb: jmercouris: yes, all the foreign stuff is thrown over the board when you save an image and reboot it. 2017-11-14T18:40:21Z pjb: jmercouris: that's why you have to re-initialize foreign stuff (and open files and sockets, etc), when you launch the image. 2017-11-14T18:41:39Z jmercouris: So an image is cross platform portable then? 2017-11-14T18:41:44Z jmercouris: I mean, surely it must be 2017-11-14T18:41:47Z pjb: nope. 2017-11-14T18:42:12Z jmercouris: I don't see why not, as long as you are not loading platform specific code 2017-11-14T18:42:37Z jmercouris: I've visualized it like the kernel is a VM, and the heap image is like a running instance of a VM 2017-11-14T18:42:52Z pjb: jmercouris: cf. ccl:*lisp-cleanup-functions* (on quit), ccl:*save-exit-functions* (on save), ccl:*restore-lisp-functions* (on restore), ccl:*lisp-startup-functions* (on startup). 2017-11-14T18:43:59Z pjb: jmercouris: there's also ccl:def-load-pointers (ccl::*lisp-user-pointer-functions* on load and now). 2017-11-14T18:44:20Z emaczen: pjb: Okay that probably makes sense then why my linux program isn't running becuase it opens a socket 2017-11-14T18:45:02Z pjb: jmercouris: http://sprunge.us/ZOLB 2017-11-14T18:46:05Z jmercouris: pjb: What am I looking at here exactly? 2017-11-14T18:46:09Z pjb: emaczen: so, for open files, clisp tries to re-open them if they still exist at the same path; perhaps ccl tries to? In any case, for not-reopened files and for sockets, you should get end-of-file errors or other errors next time you try to read or write them. 2017-11-14T18:46:25Z pjb: jmercouris: there may also be something about them in the ccl documentation. 2017-11-14T18:46:59Z pjb: jmercouris: it's for hooks to do stuff when you save an image, when you quit, when you restore an image, and when you launch it. 2017-11-14T18:47:32Z pjb: So you can close your files, free foreign resources, etc, and then re-open them, reallocate foreign resources, reload foreign libraries, etc. 2017-11-14T18:47:41Z jmercouris: Aha 2017-11-14T18:47:46Z jmercouris: I see now why it would not be portable 2017-11-14T18:48:32Z pjb: some other implementations have similar hooks. 2017-11-14T18:48:40Z pjb: (but not necessarily all, I've not checked). 2017-11-14T18:49:04Z pjb: In any case if you want portable it may be a good idea to 1- see what the other implementation do, 2- wrap all that in your high level API. 2017-11-14T18:49:26Z jmercouris: pjb: Yeah I've actually done that for my program 2017-11-14T18:49:47Z jmercouris: I've removed any platform specific code to an outer core which is loadable/compilable on all systems 2017-11-14T18:49:54Z jmercouris: and then on each system you just load up whatever you need 2017-11-14T18:50:25Z pjb: In the worst, you can always call the hooks explicitely before calling the image saving function of the implementation, and before the main function when you restore and relaunch the image. 2017-11-14T18:58:01Z emaczen: wait in my linux program, the state of the image when I call save-application has not opened any sockets yet... 2017-11-14T18:59:05Z emaczen: All I do is (asdf:load-system ...) (in-package ...) (save-application ... :toplevel-function #'start) -- start would open the socket etc... 2017-11-14T18:59:36Z emaczen: still the only difference would be armcl and loading a foreign library with CFFI 2017-11-14T19:00:07Z emaczen: jmercouris: For my OSX program it was forgetting to copy images... 2017-11-14T19:00:32Z emaczen: the default file icon GenericDocumentIcon.icns 2017-11-14T19:04:22Z jmercouris: emaczen: So it works now? 2017-11-14T19:05:47Z emaczen: jmercouris: just the OSX application, I'm guessing for linux it is having trouble with the foreign-libraries 2017-11-14T19:05:56Z jmercouris: emaczen: Congratulations!! 2017-11-14T19:06:02Z jmercouris throws cake at emaczen 2017-11-14T19:07:13Z emaczen: jmercouris: lol building executables with lisp... 2017-11-14T19:07:32Z jmercouris: Welcome to the world of lisp :\ 2017-11-14T19:07:43Z jmercouris: Ah, perhaps it was a stupid choice for my application :D 2017-11-14T19:09:50Z emaczen: nah it is always better with lisp 2017-11-14T19:32:52Z fortitude joined #ccl 2017-11-14T19:37:30Z emaczen: woohoo! I got my linux program to ubild 2017-11-14T19:37:31Z emaczen: build* 2017-11-14T19:37:36Z jmercouris: What was the issue exactly? 2017-11-14T19:37:46Z emaczen: pjb: Thanks, I was unaware of the hooks you mentioned 2017-11-14T19:38:03Z emaczen: jmercouris: I used a combination of hooks and eval-when 2017-11-14T19:38:13Z jmercouris: Ah okay, so some sort of initialization order issue 2017-11-14T19:39:00Z fortitude: I came across some notes recently that suggest SuspendThread/SetThreadContext/ResumeThread isn't a reliable way to deliver interrupts to threads on Windows; are ccl devs aware of those issues? 2017-11-14T19:42:35Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-14T19:54:11Z emaczen: pjb: I pushed a function which called cffi:define-foreign-library etc... to ccl:*restore-lisp-functions*, but what would I do to restore OSX libraries? 2017-11-14T19:54:21Z emaczen: For example 2017-11-14T19:54:37Z pjb: yes, in lisp you may have a lot of initialization in defvar, defparameter and other toplevel forms. This is no good when you save an image and launch it later: you must be careful at what time you want the initialization to occur! 2017-11-14T19:55:34Z pjb: emaczen: you can define the library at compilation time, AFAIK, but then you have to call cffi:load-foreign-library. 2017-11-14T19:55:56Z emaczen: pjb: My issue is that when I click a row in an NSTableView it isn't highlighted immediately 2017-11-14T19:56:08Z emaczen: If I click on another program and then come back to it later then it will be highlighted 2017-11-14T19:56:08Z pjb: The thing is that you will want to load the library both at compilation time (and development time) and at run-time. 2017-11-14T19:56:21Z pjb: emaczen: git? 2017-11-14T19:56:44Z emaczen: pjb: what about git? 2017-11-14T19:56:50Z pjb: where your code is? 2017-11-14T19:56:51Z jmercouris: emaczen: A link to your repository 2017-11-14T19:57:06Z jmercouris: The other important question is, are you doing any event handling that may be freezing the UI (on the main thread)? 2017-11-14T19:57:07Z emaczen: jmercouris: My code is all offline :) 2017-11-14T19:57:23Z pjb: it's inconvenient. 2017-11-14T19:58:27Z emaczen: pjb: would default-initargs in defclass forms be problematic? 2017-11-14T19:58:42Z pjb: emaczen: basically, you have to be very careful with condition signaling on the lisp side and the exception raising on the Objective-C, because any bug in your code will be masked and nothing will happen. You will want to add handler-bind to report the error (I write an error log file). 2017-11-14T19:58:56Z pjb: There's no a-priori reasosn why it should be problematic. 2017-11-14T19:59:25Z pjb: Now if it's for an objective-c class, I don't know if the bridge would handle them correctly; I'd assume yes, but there may be a problem there. 2017-11-14T20:00:12Z emaczen: pjb: I'm only having problems with the NSTableView 2017-11-14T20:01:37Z jmercouris: My delegate webViewDidFinishLoad method is never getting invoked, I've included all of the code below in a gist: https://gist.github.com/f28dd78a20f4fc428ef15b729016c99f 2017-11-14T20:01:42Z jmercouris: Any ideas what the problem may be? 2017-11-14T20:03:40Z jmercouris: Yes, it is true, I'm not using objective-cl yet :D 2017-11-14T20:03:42Z emaczen: pjb: Yeah that is the most toplevel form I use, I dont use defvar or defparam to much 2017-11-14T20:07:43Z pjb: I would stick to the Objective-C API… https://developer.apple.com/documentation/webkit/webview?language=objc 2017-11-14T20:08:49Z pjb: You know, alloc initWithFrame:frameName:groupName: Then you have 5 different delegates, so which one do you set? (using setDownloadDelegate: setFrameLoadDelegate: setPolicyDelegate: setResourceLoadDelegate: or setUIDelegate: ? 2017-11-14T20:08:51Z jmercouris: Ah yes, sorry, I am using the objective-c api 2017-11-14T20:09:06Z jmercouris: I have also tried with :frame-load-delegate 2017-11-14T20:09:15Z jmercouris: though I am not sure that is again the correct way to set that delegate 2017-11-14T20:09:28Z pjb: make-instance is a CL method. I have no idea where the arguments go. 2017-11-14T20:09:44Z jmercouris: hmm I'll try invoking setFrameLoadDeelgate then 2017-11-14T20:09:50Z jmercouris: after the instantiation 2017-11-14T20:10:15Z pjb: You realize that for it to work, each class would need a custom initialize-instance. Did you write those custom methods? 2017-11-14T20:10:18Z emaczen: pjb: what is wrong with using make-instance with metaclass ns:+ns-object? 2017-11-14T20:10:22Z pjb: ^ 2017-11-14T20:10:33Z emaczen: I define after methods for each 2017-11-14T20:10:50Z pjb: Not in the gist. Hence git! 2017-11-14T20:11:17Z jmercouris: pjb: Is the question about initialize-instane directed at me? 2017-11-14T20:11:29Z jmercouris: If so, I have written that for my classes yes 2017-11-14T20:13:25Z pjb: jmercouris: yes, it was for you, sorry for the confusion. 2017-11-14T20:15:03Z jmercouris: pjb: no problem, my mistake for not including it in the gist :D 2017-11-14T20:16:42Z emaczen: pjb: Which cocoa library am I supposed to be loading at compile-time development-time and run-time? 2017-11-14T20:17:14Z emaczen: pjb: That is my confusion with my NSTableView selection problem 2017-11-14T20:17:59Z emaczen: During dev time when I asdf:load-system and draw my gui I can click on the rows and they are highlighted as expected 2017-11-14T20:18:16Z emaczen: I don't ever have to load a library that I am aware of other than (require :cocoa) 2017-11-14T20:21:43Z jmercouris: emaczen: Should always just be require cocoa 2017-11-14T20:22:42Z emaczen: jmercouris: Why are my rows only showing the change in selection after a forced redraw? 2017-11-14T20:23:23Z emaczen: examples of "forced redraw" are clicking another program and then clicking my program, or clicking one of the other tabs in my program and then going back to the original tab 2017-11-14T20:33:18Z jmercouris: emaczen: I have no idea, so this doesn't happen when you launch from the repl, but only as a standalone? 2017-11-14T20:33:28Z emaczen: jmercouris: correct 2017-11-14T20:33:46Z emaczen: I'm not overriding row selection in an NSTableView either 2017-11-14T20:33:55Z jmercouris: All of your other views are responsive? 2017-11-14T20:33:59Z emaczen: yes 2017-11-14T20:34:15Z jmercouris: You do have a table vew delegate though yeah? 2017-11-14T20:34:20Z emaczen: yes 2017-11-14T20:34:34Z jmercouris: And your delegate, which object does it extend? 2017-11-14T20:34:45Z emaczen: ns:ns-object 2017-11-14T20:34:55Z jmercouris: And your metaclass is ns:+ns-object ? 2017-11-14T20:35:01Z emaczen: yes 2017-11-14T20:35:18Z emaczen: (:objc-protocols "NSTableViewDataSource" "NSTableViewDelegate") 2017-11-14T20:35:35Z jmercouris: If you remove your delegate methods except for numberOfRowsInTableView, and objectValueForTableColumn does the speed change? 2017-11-14T20:38:30Z emaczen: what do you mean by "speed change? 2017-11-14T20:38:43Z jmercouris: I mean, "does your problem persist"? 2017-11-14T20:38:57Z emaczen: I'll try rebuilding 2017-11-14T20:41:10Z emaczen: jmercouris: Hey that did it! 2017-11-14T20:41:24Z emaczen: I have #/tableView:viewForTableColumn:row: 2017-11-14T20:49:04Z pjb: emaczen: if you try to send a message to an Objective-C message without having loaded the library defining the message (or at least the interface file, but we cannot compile new interface files since ffigen has bitrotted), you will get an error. 2017-11-14T20:50:08Z pjb: emaczen: you need a thread running the Cocoa main loop. 2017-11-14T20:50:20Z pjb: Do you have # ? 2017-11-14T20:52:02Z emaczen: if all my other views are fine (jmercouris's suggestion worked for me) I would have to have that thread right? 2017-11-14T20:55:58Z jmercouris: emaczen: I'm sorry, I don't understand the question, can you rephrase it? 2017-11-14T20:56:32Z emaczen: jmercouris: I commented out #/tableView:viewForTableColumn:row: and now it works after I built it 2017-11-14T20:56:41Z emaczen: the row selection in the NSTableView works 2017-11-14T20:57:15Z emaczen: my NSTableView is kind of like a utility class I implemented for some nice defaults 2017-11-14T20:57:22Z emaczen: but I can't remember why I had that method? 2017-11-14T20:57:41Z jmercouris: emaczen: Aha! That is the problem 2017-11-14T20:57:47Z jmercouris: There are two types of tables actually 2017-11-14T20:58:03Z jmercouris: one that implements a lazy loading view cell based approach, and one that uses a standard cell 2017-11-14T20:58:18Z jmercouris: You should only implement viewForTableColumn when you are going to be supplying a custom view to populate each cell within the table view 2017-11-14T20:59:26Z emaczen: jmercouris: Yeah I have no idea why I implemented that method. We are talking about 1.5 years ago lol 2017-11-14T20:59:40Z jmercouris: Ah well, looks like you've been working on this program for a long time :D 2017-11-14T21:00:06Z emaczen: No, it is a utility class that I reuse in many OSX programs :) 2017-11-14T21:00:52Z jmercouris: Well, I've changed my code: https://gist.github.com/15b50d77911d85fc60632f20219594cf 2017-11-14T21:00:57Z jmercouris: And, still never gets invoked 2017-11-14T21:01:10Z emaczen: I have my own data-source that uses a lisp class for the actual data 2017-11-14T21:04:32Z pjb: How do you know it's not invoked? 2017-11-14T21:04:46Z jmercouris: because (print "called") isn't working 2017-11-14T21:04:51Z pjb: print doesn't work in main thread. 2017-11-14T21:04:52Z jmercouris: should show something to the standard otu 2017-11-14T21:05:20Z pjb: You should do something Cocoa instead. 2017-11-14T21:05:27Z jmercouris: like (quit)? 2017-11-14T21:05:36Z pjb: Like setting the text of some NSLabel. 2017-11-14T21:05:49Z jmercouris: I don't have any good references within that context 2017-11-14T21:06:07Z jmercouris: I could make my window invisible lol 2017-11-14T21:06:09Z jmercouris: let me try that 2017-11-14T21:06:39Z emaczen: jmercouris: Try a NSAlert? 2017-11-14T21:07:01Z jmercouris: emaczen: Can you please show me an example? 2017-11-14T21:07:22Z emaczen: sure 2017-11-14T21:07:48Z emaczen: (make-instance 'ns:ns-alert) 2017-11-14T21:07:59Z emaczen: (#/setMessageText: ...) 2017-11-14T21:08:04Z emaczen: (#/runModal ...) 2017-11-14T21:08:27Z emaczen: jmercouris: it will open a dialog box with whatever text you set in #/setMessageText 2017-11-14T21:08:36Z jmercouris: Right, let me give it a try here 2017-11-14T21:09:21Z jmercouris: What are the args to runModal? 2017-11-14T21:09:29Z emaczen: just the alert 2017-11-14T21:09:39Z jmercouris: Ah okay, I made a typo then 2017-11-14T21:10:08Z jmercouris: Ok i've successfully made an NSAlert, now let me see if it gets called 2017-11-14T21:15:49Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-14T21:16:07Z jmercouris: pjb: Confirmed, it is definitely not being called 2017-11-14T21:18:48Z jmercouris: I have one other theory 2017-11-14T21:18:54Z jmercouris: maybe the delegate must exist and cannot be constructed inline 2017-11-14T21:19:54Z pjb: with something like: (let ((win [[[NSApplication sharedApplication] orderedWindows] objectAtIndex:1]) 2017-11-14T21:19:54Z pjb: (label [[NSTextField alloc] initWithFrame:(unwrap (make-nsrect :x 10.0 :y 10.0 :width 200.0 :height 30.0))])) 2017-11-14T21:19:54Z pjb: [label setStringValue:(objcl:objc-string "Hello")] 2017-11-14T21:19:54Z pjb: [[win contentView] addSubview:label]) 2017-11-14T21:20:56Z jmercouris: pjb: It is okay, I already have the NSAlert code in place, it definitely works, it just is not being invoked 2017-11-14T21:21:00Z pjb: ok. 2017-11-14T21:21:12Z jmercouris: Something fishy going on with the delegates 2017-11-14T21:21:13Z pjb: Read the documentation. 2017-11-14T21:21:26Z jmercouris: Did I miss something? or are you just saying in general? 2017-11-14T21:23:55Z pjb: in general. 2017-11-14T21:24:10Z pjb: It may be teddious, but it's the only way to improve. 2017-11-14T21:24:14Z jmercouris: The CCL Documentation or the Objective-C stuff? 2017-11-14T21:24:25Z jmercouris: I've read the objective-c stuff many times over now 2017-11-14T21:24:25Z pjb: Cocoa stuff. 2017-11-14T21:24:32Z jmercouris: Maybe I should start with a cocoa book 2017-11-14T21:24:59Z pjb: Sometimes, I write a little Objective-C program in Xcode to debug my Cocoa stuff. 2017-11-14T21:28:44Z jmercouris: pjb: I am an idiot, I keep looking at UIKit Documentation 2017-11-14T21:29:02Z jmercouris: The delegate method for Cocoa on MacOS is different!!!!! 2017-11-14T21:29:45Z pjb: :-) 2017-11-14T21:34:16Z jmercouris: For anyone reading in the future, the proper signature for webview is: webView:didFinishLoadForFrame 2017-11-14T21:34:48Z emaczen: I'm surprised they didn't make OSX and IOS more similar so that code could be easily ported? 2017-11-14T21:34:59Z jmercouris: Yeah, me too, it really frustrates me 2017-11-14T21:35:18Z jmercouris: I remember this was such an issue during the early days of iOS programming, I would always come across conflicts in API 2017-11-14T21:35:35Z pjb: The first iPhone and iPad were really limited with only 512 MB RAM and a slow processor. 2017-11-14T21:35:48Z pjb: So they had to simplify and optimize the frameworks a lot. 2017-11-14T21:35:50Z jmercouris: Now, it is the other way around, I have trouble finding OSX specific things with the deprecation of carbon, and the cocoa on osx being slightly different 2017-11-14T21:36:24Z jmercouris: Also, I don't like how they introduced swift 2017-11-14T21:36:37Z jmercouris: now it's like a chasm between these two languages, they share a runtime, but the syntax is so different 2017-11-14T21:36:51Z jmercouris: objective-c really is such a nice language IMO, not sure why it needed to be scrapped for a kotlin copy cat 2017-11-14T21:37:46Z emaczen: I'm more shocked that C, Java and Javascript are popular 2017-11-14T21:38:49Z jmercouris: emaczen: What is shocking about that? 2017-11-14T21:39:16Z jmercouris: emaczen: Sun was a massively influential company, and the nectar of cross-platform JVM was too alluring for cheap companies, so they drank the java kool aid 2017-11-14T21:39:43Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-14T21:39:52Z jmercouris: Javascript, livescript really, a pseudo language with syntax made of wet-noodles was only popularized by netscape during the and era 2017-11-14T21:42:40Z emaczen: jmercouris: I understand why, but any non-lisp language isn't homoiconic and therefore doesn't have the macros that we benefit from 2017-11-14T21:43:10Z emaczen: Well prolog is homoiconic 2017-11-14T21:44:02Z jmercouris: What you don't know, doesn't hurt you, and I think most programmers don't really care, I would suggest only a small percentage of programmers actually care about programming - in industry 2017-11-14T21:44:28Z jmercouris: In other words, for them, it is a job, a means to an end, rather than the end in of itself 2017-11-14T21:44:53Z emaczen: so they are willing to do things their entire life (or most of their life anyway) and just not care? 2017-11-14T21:44:56Z rumbler31: Do you guys feel your investments to learn cocoa have been worthwhile? 2017-11-14T21:45:20Z jmercouris: rumbler31: I saw a several hunder percent performance increase in my application, so yes 2017-11-14T21:45:44Z jmercouris: emaczen: I think so, many people are satisfied with a 9-5 grind, never questioning if there is a "better" way 2017-11-14T21:46:05Z jmercouris: It seems to me there is a point where people stop growing and learning, and they are just "doing" 2017-11-14T21:46:09Z rumbler31: jmercouris: what do you mean 2017-11-14T21:46:21Z jmercouris: rumbler31: My UI was way more responsive in Cocoa than in other solutions 2017-11-14T21:46:28Z emaczen: rumbler31: Yes, I use #'make-instance and #'initialize-instance via the metaobject protocol that is built into the cocoa-bridge 2017-11-14T21:46:52Z emaczen: rumbler31: You can't use multiple-inheritance 2017-11-14T21:47:04Z rumbler31: jmercouris: what were the other things you tried? 2017-11-14T21:47:15Z jmercouris: rumbler31: QT 2017-11-14T21:47:28Z jmercouris: I didn't try McClim or anything, but it will most likely be slower than Cocoa 2017-11-14T21:47:56Z jmercouris: If you are not doing anything high performance, I think you can get away with McClim 2017-11-14T21:48:22Z rumbler31: how long did it take you to feel proficient in cocoa to get work done. GUI stuff in lisp has always lead me to unsatisfactory dead ends and much wasted time 2017-11-14T21:48:55Z jmercouris: rumbler31: Depends, do you have prior experience with cocoa? 2017-11-14T21:49:02Z emaczen: rumbler31: a week maybe? 2017-11-14T21:49:04Z jmercouris: How long have you been programming? Which other GUI systems have you worked with? 2017-11-14T21:49:31Z jmercouris: I think a week is an underestimate, I would say in 3 weeks you could be pretty good 2017-11-14T21:50:11Z emaczen: jmercouris: I guess it depends how much cocoa you want to do 2017-11-14T21:50:36Z emaczen: I try to get away with as much lisp as I can 2017-11-14T21:53:15Z rumbler31: no prior experience with cocoa. I've worked in apps that used wxwidgets for a few months but wasn't responsible for heavily re-working the ui. (a long time ago) 2017-11-14T21:53:28Z rumbler31: I've been programming for several years 2017-11-14T21:53:39Z rumbler31: never really broken into gui and graphics stuff 2017-11-14T21:54:33Z rumbler31: i've heard talk of the "live coding" your gui app which was always really cool sounding, and one of the reasons I got into lisp 2017-11-14T21:54:46Z jmercouris: Yeah, this is possible with CCL/Cocoa 2017-11-14T21:54:58Z jmercouris: It's not that cool, but I can do things to the GUI from the REPL 2017-11-14T21:55:13Z jmercouris: It's useful to avoid the compile loop for sure, way faster to program 2017-11-14T21:55:26Z jmercouris: I would say give it a spin, the worst you will lose is time, and you will gain experience at the least 2017-11-14T21:55:54Z rumbler31: you're in the middle of using your app, and you want to try some new functionality, its already loaded so you can just make some changes, that sort of stuff 2017-11-14T21:57:35Z jmercouris: rumbler31: Yeah, certainly possible 2017-11-14T21:58:01Z jmercouris: I think McClim is the "coolest" GUI in lispworld, based on public sentiment, but if you are going to be working with OSX, nothing comes close to Cocoa 2017-11-14T21:58:57Z rumbler31: I've fought with that xserver bs too many times, and I can't successfully re-deploy that environment the same way everytime 2017-11-14T21:59:14Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-11-14T22:00:37Z rumbler31: and I've heard about ffigen being bitrotted, I assume its part of the build system for ccl to make bindings to osx frameworks? 2017-11-14T22:02:13Z jmercouris: rumbler31: Yeah, it needs to make some special header files, I can't remember what they're called right now 2017-11-14T22:02:46Z rumbler31: I've got experience in build system guts, not afraid to get my hands dirty 2017-11-14T22:03:22Z jmercouris: rumbler31: https://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter12.7.html 2017-11-14T22:04:50Z jmercouris: pjb: Did I translate this correctly? - (void)webView:(WebView *)sender didFinishLoadForFrame:(WebFrame *)frame; 2017-11-14T22:04:51Z jmercouris: (objc:defmethod (#/webView:didFinishLoadForFrame: :void) ((self web-view-delegate) web-view-sender frame-loaded) 2017-11-14T22:05:02Z jmercouris: Ah right, of course, you use objective-cl nvm 2017-11-14T22:11:12Z jmercouris: Alright, I've just installed/loaded objective-cl: Performing ASDF load-op on system "com.informatimago.objcl" 2017-11-14T22:11:17Z jmercouris: That's the system I've gotta load right? 2017-11-14T22:13:58Z jmercouris: At any rate, it is loaded now, time to try to use the macros 2017-11-14T22:26:17Z pjb: jmercouris: it looks like it. 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I only want it to be evaluated when I am developing, now when CCL is started to use ccl:save-application or ccl::build-application 2017-11-15T19:34:55Z emaczen: Can I check for a feature? 2017-11-15T19:36:31Z pjb: emaczen save-application or build-application have an option to specify the init file. 2017-11-15T19:37:17Z emaczen: pjb: thanks... 2017-11-15T19:37:41Z pjb: You may also override application-init-file for your CL application class, returning a list containing the init file you want. 2017-11-15T19:38:06Z pjb: eg. (defmethod application-init-file ((application patchwork-application)) (directory #P"PW-USER:PW-inits;*.lisp")) 2017-11-15T19:38:32Z pjb: But actually, only the first file is loaded. I made a patch to load them all, but it is currently unsatisfactory. 2017-11-15T19:44:10Z edgar-rft joined #ccl 2017-11-15T19:45:10Z emaczen: pjb: I see a keyword argument for init-file for save-application but not build-application 2017-11-15T19:51:45Z emaczen: In my Makefile I think it will be sufficient to use --no-init 2017-11-15T19:58:21Z BitPuffin|osx joined #ccl 2017-11-15T19:59:05Z pjb: ok, for save-application. 2017-11-15T20:00:41Z pjb: in the case of build-application you would pass your own subclass of application (or cocoa-ide) to :application-class and imlpemnt the application-init-file method. 2017-11-15T20:03:08Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-15T20:07:29Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T20:16:11Z emaczen: pjb: Ok, hopefully I will remember 2017-11-15T20:34:16Z rumbler31: IOKit, sheesh 2017-11-15T21:35:27Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-15T22:04:01Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-15T22:08:47Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-15T22:13:20Z X-Scale joined #ccl 2017-11-15T22:44:26Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-15T22:59:10Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-15T23:09:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-16T00:10:03Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-16T00:14:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-16T00:46:38Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-16T00:50:32Z rumbler31: where are you guys accepting bugs, as pr's on git? patches to the mailing list? 2017-11-16T00:51:36Z xrme: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl please 2017-11-16T00:52:29Z rumbler31: ty 2017-11-16T00:55:38Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-16T01:22:46Z peccu quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-16T01:22:47Z MetaYan quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-16T01:28:19Z peccu joined #ccl 2017-11-16T01:28:19Z MetaYan joined #ccl 2017-11-16T02:11:10Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-16T02:37:46Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-16T03:13:53Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-16T03:19:44Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-16T03:20:40Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-16T03:33:38Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-16T03:52:04Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-16T04:01:40Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-16T04:16:24Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-16T04:39:12Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-16T05:06:00Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-16T05:51:33Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-16T06:25:01Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-16T08:42:26Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-16T09:12:03Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-16T09:25:02Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-16T09:49:53Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-11-16T09:54:41Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-16T10:57:49Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-16T10:58:38Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-16T12:03:44Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-16T12:49:11Z sixbitslacker joined #ccl 2017-11-16T12:50:28Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-16T13:47:08Z norserob quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-16T14:56:08Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-16T14:57:36Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-11-16T15:01:36Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-16T15:11:33Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-16T15:12:23Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-11-16T15:28:06Z emaczen` joined #ccl 2017-11-16T15:32:10Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-16T17:27:07Z sjl__ joined #ccl 2017-11-16T17:27:12Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-16T17:27:20Z emaczen` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-16T17:33:19Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-16T17:43:04Z emaczen joined #ccl 2017-11-16T17:57:45Z fortitude joined #ccl 2017-11-16T18:43:37Z emaczen: I'm having the same problem I had on Linux the other day and not being able to build an executable... 2017-11-16T18:43:44Z emaczen: I'm using the same code 2017-11-16T18:43:51Z emaczen: I've deleted ~/.cache/common-lisp 2017-11-16T18:44:14Z emaczen: It still works on my one linux machine but not the others... 2017-11-16T18:48:38Z emaczen: Any suggestions with system parameters? 2017-11-16T18:49:10Z emaczen: I thought I fixed it a few days ago by using eval-when and the ccl:*restore-lisp-functions* hook 2017-11-16T19:39:19Z _rumbler31: I'm trying to get the trace macro to break on evaluation of a form. Trying to get the syntax right but I don't understand what the doc for the prototype is telling me 2017-11-16T19:39:20Z _rumbler31: https://pastebin.com/5pVxR2Ez 2017-11-16T19:52:42Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2017-11-16T20:08:27Z pjb: (trace (ccl::basename :break-before '(if (directoryp (car ccl::args)) t nil))) ; but :break-before takes a boolean. 2017-11-16T20:11:05Z pjb: well, no it takes a boolean form, but why didn't my test work? 2017-11-16T20:11:30Z pjb: Ha, directoryp not defined… 2017-11-16T20:12:32Z _rumbler31: oh its a ccl thing 2017-11-16T20:12:39Z pjb: it's in ccl. 2017-11-16T20:13:02Z _rumbler31: i mean, its yea. 2017-11-16T20:13:39Z pjb: doesn't seem to work as we wish… 2017-11-16T20:14:04Z pjb: Anyways, the syntax is to wrap each function with option in parentheses, since trace takes several function-with-optional-options 2017-11-16T20:16:35Z _rumbler31: thank you, that was the clarification I needed 2017-11-16T20:19:34Z _rumbler31: pjb: the (if.. form doesn't need to be quoted 2017-11-16T20:20:25Z pjb: ah right, of course! 2017-11-16T20:32:09Z _rumbler31: I'm glad its clear to someone, I had to guess :-) 2017-11-16T20:32:16Z _rumbler31: oh well, and now my first pr ever is submitted! 2017-11-16T20:32:45Z pjb: Congratulations! 2017-11-16T20:33:52Z _rumbler31: ty! it looks embarrasingly small for the amount of time it took me to figure out what was going on 2017-11-16T20:56:39Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-16T23:02:01Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-17T00:11:37Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-17T00:55:22Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-17T01:42:16Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-17T02:01:55Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-17T02:03:00Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-17T03:10:14Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-17T03:15:17Z milanj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-17T03:42:49Z eschatologist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-17T03:43:27Z eschatologist joined #ccl 2017-11-17T04:07:26Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-17T05:07:21Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-17T05:08:34Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-17T05:11:46Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-17T08:02:53Z jdz: Experience is what you get when you do not get what you want. 2017-11-17T08:03:08Z jdz: -- Erik Naggum 2017-11-17T08:42:06Z emaczen` joined #ccl 2017-11-17T08:44:23Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-17T09:09:29Z hhdave_ joined #ccl 2017-11-17T09:40:39Z jackdaniel: so many experienced people.. ;_) 2017-11-17T09:42:25Z emaczen`` joined #ccl 2017-11-17T09:43:52Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-17T10:44:32Z emaczen`` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-17T11:25:37Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-11-17T12:59:34Z norserob joined #ccl 2017-11-17T13:03:43Z norserob quit (Client Quit) 2017-11-17T13:04:09Z norserob joined #ccl 2017-11-17T13:04:37Z rumbler31: I can't tell if Naggum is considered a troll or what, but that quote sounds exactly right 2017-11-17T13:06:45Z jackdaniel: Erik Naggum is a well-recognized lisper (who passed away in 2004) known for his in-depth knowledge and something what some may call unacceptable attitude towards other people 2017-11-17T13:06:48Z jackdaniel: s/is/was/ 2017-11-17T13:07:29Z jackdaniel: soryr, passed away in 2009 2017-11-17T13:12:04Z jdz: This is off-topic, and this is all I'm going to say, but in my opinion "unacceptable attitude" was actually a heroic effort of dealing with "the shouting class": http://noahpinionblog.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-shouting-class.html. 2017-11-17T13:34:15Z edgar-rft joined #ccl 2017-11-17T15:04:50Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-17T16:23:38Z fortitude joined #ccl 2017-11-17T16:32:32Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-17T16:54:57Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-17T17:43:02Z hhdave_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-17T17:55:57Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-17T18:00:32Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-17T18:12:46Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-17T19:53:52Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-11-17T19:56:44Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-17T20:01:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-17T21:57:57Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-17T22:03:53Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-17T22:51:17Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-17T23:01:32Z emaczen joined #ccl 2017-11-17T23:02:01Z emaczen: How can I override the menu-bar or remove pieces of it in temp-bundle? 2017-11-17T23:03:56Z pjb: You would edit the nib files with Xcode. 2017-11-17T23:04:37Z pjb: Or you can of course do it at run-time. I prefer this. 2017-11-17T23:05:10Z pjb: emaczen: or, for a custom application, you would just provide your own copy of the nib files. 2017-11-17T23:09:27Z emaczen: pjb: I want to override it in temp-bundle specifically while I develop 2017-11-17T23:10:07Z emaczen: C-v is bound to paste and I want it to to do scoll-up-page 2017-11-17T23:10:37Z emaczen: I have my own key entry evaluation too so I don't want to use the menu-bar or any OSX features here 2017-11-17T23:11:23Z pjb: But modifying the temp-bundle (which resides in the ccl source directory), would impact all the projects, even future, or of the other users on your system! 2017-11-17T23:11:35Z pjb: You can modify the menu at run-time all you want. 2017-11-17T23:11:47Z pjb: Or if you sure you can edit the nib files. 2017-11-17T23:12:21Z emaczen: pjb: Ok, I'll try at runtime I misunderstood you 2017-11-17T23:13:25Z pjb: But I don't see that C-v is bound to paste; it's ⌘-v. 2017-11-17T23:14:25Z pjb: Yep, in hemlock windows, C-v scrolls down. 2017-11-17T23:14:35Z pjb: There's no situation where C-v is paste. 2017-11-17T23:16:23Z emaczen: pjb: Oops I meant M-v 2017-11-17T23:17:01Z emaczen: And (#/setMainMenu #/sharedApplication ...) did the trick 2017-11-17T23:17:01Z pjb: But you're using ⌘- for M- ! 2017-11-17T23:17:30Z emaczen: I am 2017-11-17T23:19:21Z pjb: M-v is bound to scroll window up. You can see it with C-h c opt-v 2017-11-17T23:19:40Z pjb: The main menu doesn't apply to hemlock windows. 2017-11-17T23:20:06Z pjb: (or perhaps it's taken into account first). 2017-11-17T23:20:11Z emaczen: pjb: this is a custom program 2017-11-17T23:20:19Z emaczen: with emacs-like bindings :) 2017-11-17T23:27:48Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-17T23:31:02Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-17T23:43:32Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-17T23:48:06Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-17T23:53:07Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-18T02:06:21Z pjb` joined #ccl 2017-11-18T02:08:10Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-18T02:28:17Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-18T02:57:12Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-18T04:27:20Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-18T05:15:49Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-18T08:04:13Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-18T10:33:09Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 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xrme is now known as rme 2017-11-21T19:47:27Z rme quit 2017-11-21T19:47:43Z rme joined #ccl 2017-11-21T19:51:32Z ChanServ has set mode +o rme 2017-11-21T20:33:57Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-21T20:39:04Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-21T20:39:22Z rme: Argh. I banged my head against the wall all day yesterday trying to figure out why I couldn't build ccl-1.11 from sources hosted on GitHub. It turns out I was using the 1.12-dev version of the interface databases. 2017-11-21T20:45:57Z mdc_mobile quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-21T20:50:37Z mdc_mobile joined #ccl 2017-11-21T21:57:41Z mrottenkolber: rme: argh :/ :) 2017-11-21T22:14:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-21T22:28:47Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-21T23:07:13Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-21T23:10:34Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-21T23:13:12Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-11-21T23:36:35Z astronav_ joined #ccl 2017-11-21T23:39:15Z astronav_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-22T00:27:34Z hifitim joined #ccl 2017-11-22T00:38:41Z hifitim quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-22T00:45:05Z rme: does https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/85 ring any bells? 2017-11-22T00:45:43Z rme: googling the error message isn't too helpful 2017-11-22T00:46:22Z pjb: Perhaps related to trying to run a 32-bit executable on a 64-bit system? (The addresses look 64-bit to me). 2017-11-22T00:53:06Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2017-11-22T00:59:15Z rme: Tomorrow, perhaps I'll make a 32-bit VM and see what happens there. 2017-11-22T01:46:25Z rme has set mode -o rme 2017-11-22T03:00:52Z mrottenkolber quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-22T03:01:40Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-11-22T03:02:04Z mrottenkolber is now known as Guest2347 2017-11-22T03:20:18Z bugrum joined #ccl 2017-11-22T04:27:39Z bugrum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-22T05:04:26Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-22T08:08:21Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-22T09:03:08Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-22T09:04:54Z eschatologist joined #ccl 2017-11-22T09:48:50Z Guest2347 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2017-11-22T09:49:39Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-11-22T09:50:14Z mrottenkolber is now known as Guest75719 2017-11-22T11:54:20Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-11-22T11:54:22Z jmercouris: is there an already existing way to make a standalone cocoa app not 2017-11-22T11:54:22Z jmercouris: crash on an exception and instead show a repl / listener with the 2017-11-22T11:54:22Z jmercouris: appropriate restarts? 2017-11-22T11:54:42Z jmercouris: sorry for the formatting, my client had some issues 2017-11-22T11:55:11Z jmercouris: if I sign off or my connection gets cut, I will check the log later, so any responses won't fall on deaf ears ;) 2017-11-22T11:59:38Z jmercouris quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-22T12:04:38Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-22T12:06:24Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-22T12:39:19Z Guest75719: rme: when I google for "bad frame in 32bit rt sigreturn frame" I get linux signal handler stuff 2017-11-22T12:40:58Z Guest75719 left #ccl 2017-11-22T12:42:04Z Guest75719 joined #ccl 2017-11-22T12:43:07Z Guest75719 left #ccl 2017-11-22T12:45:47Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-11-22T12:46:31Z mrottenkolber: rme: seems to come frome here: https://lkml.org/lkml/2008/9/5/356 2017-11-22T12:49:24Z mrottenkolber: rme: why are bug fixes from the master branch backported to 1.11, instead of i.e. just landing in a 1.12 release? (trying to understand the merge flow) 2017-11-22T13:44:04Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-22T14:45:05Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-22T15:00:10Z sjl__ joined #ccl 2017-11-22T15:30:32Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-22T15:35:41Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-22T15:53:46Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2017-11-22T15:58:47Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-11-22T16:22:31Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-22T16:29:22Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-11-22T16:33:31Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-22T16:51:27Z mdc_mobile quit (Read error) 2017-11-22T16:58:28Z rme: mrottenkolber: Good question. Let me try to explain briefly. 2017-11-22T17:00:28Z rme: When we used Subversion, there were really two branches of interest at any given time, namely the release branch (1.11 in this case), and the trunk (the bloody, leading-edge development branch). 2017-11-22T17:01:05Z rme: The idea is that the release branch would be stable, and would get only important bugfixes, while daily development would take place on the trunk. 2017-11-22T17:01:31Z rme: I can see that I'm not going to do well on the "briefly" already. 2017-11-22T17:02:27Z rme: Anyway, there have been a lot of compiler changes (involving a new register allocation scheme) in the trunk (now master branch). 2017-11-22T17:04:46Z rme: There are still a number of bugs involving those changes. For instance, the 32-bit x86 ports are failing a number of tests. There are other known bugs too, some of which are difficult. 2017-11-22T17:05:55Z rme: https://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/1410 is one that I have been looking it, for example. 2017-11-22T17:09:00Z rme: I want to make a new release very soon. It's been way too long. It will take some time to debug the 1.12 development branch. 2017-11-22T17:10:13Z rme: So, I decided that I'd port the bugfixes from the 1.12 development branch (i.e. from master) to 1.11, and make an updated 1.11 release as an interim measure while we get the 1.12 branch debugged. 2017-11-22T17:15:43Z rme: In retrospect, the new register allocator changes should not have been merged to the trunk. They should have remained on a feature branch until they were thoroughly debugged. 2017-11-22T17:23:10Z rme: So, there isn't any sort of designed merge flow happening here. It's a short-term workaround. 2017-11-22T17:45:03Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-22T18:55:28Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-22T18:55:54Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-22T19:02:21Z mrottenkolber: rme: Cool! I didn’t even know 1.12 included such substantial changes :-) 2017-11-22T19:12:38Z rme: see https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/blob/master/doc/compiler-changes-in-CCL-1.12-trunk.pdf 2017-11-22T19:44:08Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-22T20:06:57Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-22T20:07:12Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-11-22T20:13:41Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-22T20:52:44Z rme: I tried Ubuntu 17.10 with a 32-bit kernel, and I still get the signal-related crash mentioned in https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/85 2017-11-22T21:16:43Z edgar-rft joined #ccl 2017-11-22T22:38:21Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-22T22:45:42Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-22T22:48:01Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-22T23:07:30Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-11-22T23:45:06Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-23T01:01:50Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-23T01:16:54Z rme: I now have a branch based on 1.11, with a bunch of bug-fixes from master applied, now passing all the tests (on macOS, at least). I'll test it on the other platforms and then make a 1.11.5 release. 2017-11-23T01:17:17Z rme: I miss the buildbot. That automation was really nice. It was a casualty to the switch to GitHub. 2017-11-23T01:27:59Z rme: It's nice to have some time to work on CCL again. 2017-11-23T02:09:03Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-23T02:10:34Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-23T04:52:28Z eschatologist: Excellent news 2017-11-23T04:59:28Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-23T08:41:35Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-23T08:41:37Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-23T09:14:12Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-23T09:28:32Z hhdave_ joined #ccl 2017-11-23T09:28:33Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-23T09:28:33Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2017-11-23T10:54:47Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-23T11:57:35Z sjl__ joined #ccl 2017-11-23T12:48:58Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-23T13:54:02Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-23T14:07:05Z pjb` joined #ccl 2017-11-23T14:08:11Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-23T14:24:22Z pjb` 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2017-11-27T20:26:12Z fe[nl]ix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-27T20:26:12Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-27T20:26:24Z Blkt joined #ccl 2017-11-27T20:26:25Z fe[nl]ix joined #ccl 2017-11-27T21:18:04Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-27T21:27:45Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-27T21:57:10Z rme: $1200/mo for health insurance for a family of 5. What a rip-off. 2017-11-27T21:57:21Z rme: whoops, wrong channel, sorry. 2017-11-27T22:25:15Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-27T22:58:34Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-27T23:17:04Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-28T00:54:44Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-11-28T01:40:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-28T01:45:53Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-28T01:51:17Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-11-28T01:59:34Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-28T03:21:07Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-28T05:29:41Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-11-28T05:48:38Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-28T05:49:40Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-11-28T06:15:11Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-28T06:25:07Z BitPuffin|osx joined #ccl 2017-11-28T07:42:14Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-11-28T07:42:55Z jdz: We agree, anyway. 2017-11-28T07:44:06Z jackdaniel: heh 2017-11-28T07:50:06Z svetlyak40wt joined #ccl 2017-11-28T08:19:47Z 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2017-11-29T11:37:01Z mrottenkolber: rme: congrats on the 1.11.5 release! I see you are, like me, having trouble navigating the GitHub UI? ;-) 2017-11-29T11:51:00Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-29T12:06:02Z mrottenkolber: rme: some nitpicking: 1.11.5 again doesn’t include the prebuilt manual as HTML, and apparently also no LICENSE/COPYING file? 2017-11-29T12:10:00Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-29T12:43:25Z mrottenkolber: rme: actually never mind the prebuilt docs, having to build it myself is reasonable, being the package maintainer. 2017-11-29T12:44:19Z svetlyak_ joined #ccl 2017-11-29T12:44:20Z svetlyak_ is now known as svetlyak40wt_ 2017-11-29T12:45:16Z svetlyak40wt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-29T12:52:34Z rumbler3_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-29T12:58:29Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-29T13:26:17Z svetlyak40wt_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-29T13:27:03Z svetlyak40wt joined #ccl 2017-11-29T13:40:14Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-29T13:43:56Z jmercouris joined #ccl 2017-11-29T13:44:15Z jmercouris: based on this webpage, am I correct in assuming that FFIGEN has not been updated since 1996? http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/lth/ffigen/ 2017-11-29T13:55:16Z pjb: jmercouris: yes. 2017-11-29T13:55:24Z pjb: And you need an old MacOSX to run it. 2017-11-29T13:55:48Z pjb: It's a patch of an old gcc, and nowadays MacOSX has clang, not gcc. 2017-11-29T14:03:50Z jmercouris: pjb: that's bad news :( 2017-11-29T14:05:12Z pjb: On the other hand, ffigen is a rather simple patch on gcc. I could be redevelopped easily enough with libclang (llvm). 2017-11-29T14:05:51Z jmercouris: when you say easily enough, what are we talking about in terms of hours and skill? 2017-11-29T14:05:58Z jmercouris: does one have to be an experienced compiler developer to do it? 2017-11-29T14:06:05Z pjb: jmercouris: if you're looking for a short project where you'd learn a lot and be a ccl hero, that would be it. 2017-11-29T14:06:37Z jmercouris: I don't know if I can do it, that's all, maybe I'm just underestimating myself 2017-11-29T14:07:14Z pjb: You'll have to understand the current ffigen (dig a little in gcc); you'll have to learn about llvm/clang (good investment!); you'll have to learn about the Objective-C run-time (good investment for a macOS/iOS developper, swift uses the same run-time). 2017-11-29T14:07:44Z pjb: I'd say it could be done in 2 weeks if you don't already know those subject. In 2 or 3 days if you do. 2017-11-29T14:08:08Z jmercouris: hmmm 2 weeks is quite a bit of time for me, as I wanted to start working on the Linux port of my software 2017-11-29T14:08:47Z jmercouris: on the other hand, the knowledge could be useful for the linux port, as I will need to generate some now headers using CFFI for WebkitGTK 2017-11-29T14:08:53Z pjb: The alternative is to produce cffi by hand or by help of swig, but swig doesn't handle all the fineses of C headers. 2017-11-29T14:08:55Z jmercouris: s/now/new 2017-11-29T14:09:21Z jmercouris: pjb: What does it mean to produce the CFFI by hand? inspect all of the H files and make stubs? 2017-11-29T14:09:22Z pjb: So it would be time-consuming. I'd say you can avoid ffigen only if you have a small foreign API to use. 2017-11-29T14:09:34Z pjb: Yes, write the defcfun, defcstruct, etc. 2017-11-29T14:09:58Z pjb: One big problem being that the layout of the structures changes on each target… 2017-11-29T14:09:59Z jmercouris: pjb: The only API I wish to use is that of WKWebView, the other ones have headers which have not significantly changed 2017-11-29T14:10:31Z pjb: You can have 32-bit, 64-bit, change of order of the fields in the structures, little-endian vs. big-endian, and other problems. 2017-11-29T14:10:50Z jmercouris: Can you please give me some more background on FFIGEN 2017-11-29T14:10:56Z jmercouris: so I can understand what it does 2017-11-29T14:11:13Z jmercouris: basically it loads some library in via GCC, CLANG, whatever, does some sort of inspection on it, and spits out a bunch of header files? 2017-11-29T14:11:22Z pjb: It hooks into gcc to extract high level information about defines, variables, types and functions. 2017-11-29T14:11:28Z jmercouris: and the reason it uses the compiler is because the compiler already knows how to parse and load these types of files? 2017-11-29T14:11:43Z pjb: Yes. 2017-11-29T14:12:02Z jmercouris: Does anyone use clang on Linux? 2017-11-29T14:12:13Z pjb: and foremost about classes and methods obviously! 2017-11-29T14:12:15Z jmercouris: If I do this work, will it only be useful for OSX? 2017-11-29T14:12:21Z pjb: Yes, clang is used on Linux. 2017-11-29T14:12:25Z jmercouris: or will someone be able to generate headers for C libraries in Linux as well? 2017-11-29T14:12:44Z pjb: Nope, if you use libclang, you will be able to compile it on linux and run it on linux too. 2017-11-29T14:12:53Z jackdaniel: drop a word on #clasp too when you're done 2017-11-29T14:13:02Z jmercouris: lol, that's a really big IF :D 2017-11-29T14:13:03Z jackdaniel: they may be interested in ffigen 2017-11-29T14:13:36Z pjb: jmercouris: hey! you could also write it in Common Lisp! 2017-11-29T14:13:37Z jmercouris: I appreciate the vote of confidence in your phrasing though, "when you're done" :D 2017-11-29T14:13:57Z jmercouris: pjb: Does that add a layer of challenge to it? 2017-11-29T14:14:40Z pjb: more or less: you have to use libclang thru CL FFI ; but it may be more pleasant and easier to write CL code than C code. 2017-11-29T14:15:36Z jmercouris: It definitely is, I'm rusty in C, haven't used it at any great length since my undergraduate 2017-11-29T14:23:50Z pjb: Somebody has already done a good libclang FFI IIRC> 2017-11-29T14:24:16Z hhdave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-29T14:24:25Z pjb: Yes, clasp, indeed. 2017-11-29T14:26:29Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h31pURzgYX8 2017-11-29T14:27:21Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-29T14:28:14Z pjb: But I'm not sure there's a module extractable and usable… 2017-11-29T14:28:29Z pjb: and it's written in C++ anyways… 2017-11-29T14:28:34Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-29T14:28:53Z jmercouris: you can tell this guy is a C++ developer 2017-11-29T14:29:06Z jmercouris: ;; multiline comments, and hanging parenthesis 2017-11-29T14:30:46Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-29T14:31:00Z jmercouris: you know, I think I could actually do this, let me do some more research 2017-11-29T14:32:47Z jmercouris: pjb: Can you point to a minimum example of some C program, and some FFIGEN output so I can study what the format should look like? 2017-11-29T14:34:43Z pjb: Not really: I don't have a working ffigen anymore. :-( 2017-11-29T14:35:29Z jmercouris: So what should my first step be? producing an AST from a loaded program in LLVM and loading it as an SEXPR in lisp? 2017-11-29T14:35:33Z pjb: I've got some old files. 2017-11-29T14:40:16Z pjb: jmercouris: -> ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/users/pjb/clipboard/example-ffi.tar.bz2 2017-11-29T14:40:40Z pjb: jmercouris: first step would be to read the sources of ffigen and understand them. 2017-11-29T14:40:55Z pjb: There you already have the generation of the .ffi file part, so you don't have to rewrite that. 2017-11-29T14:41:10Z pjb: It's the gcc patch that you need to understand. 2017-11-29T14:43:39Z jmercouris: right I see 2017-11-29T14:43:58Z jmercouris: or rather how to get something LLVM to output something the ffigen part can understand, not necessarily patching it 2017-11-29T14:47:25Z pjb: Nope. 2017-11-29T14:47:52Z pjb: You would use libclang to READ the C headers, and the code in ffigen to WRITE the .ffi file that ffigen GENerates.s 2017-11-29T14:48:46Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-29T14:51:06Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-29T14:51:27Z jmercouris: Ah okay, so we only need the headers 2017-11-29T14:51:30Z jmercouris: that doesn't seem too bad 2017-11-29T14:52:23Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-11-29T14:58:50Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-11-29T15:16:31Z pjb: minion: memo for jmercouris: have a look at: git clone http://git.informatimago.com/public/clang-ast 2017-11-29T15:23:58Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-29T15:26:07Z rumbler31: I imagine the idea of doing the c header read in lisp is too 2017-11-29T15:26:34Z rumbler31: onerous? otherwise, we still end up with a solution where an end user needs to have a patched llvm to do this 2017-11-29T15:28:04Z svetlyak40wt joined #ccl 2017-11-29T15:40:47Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-11-29T15:43:31Z pjb: rumbler31: it's not too onerous, it only requires a C parser. 2017-11-29T15:44:04Z pjb: rumbler31: the problem there is that you need a C parser that parses the same thing as gcc or clang! (including the implementation specific extensions). 2017-11-29T15:44:11Z pjb: this is why ffigen is a patch on gcc. 2017-11-29T15:44:31Z rumbler31: I noticed that part... 2017-11-29T15:45:06Z rumbler31: I feel like that is something I could tackle 2017-11-29T15:45:07Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-29T15:45:08Z pjb: So, you can implement a C parser in CL (I've started doing that last year, eventually I guess I'll complete it). 2017-11-29T15:45:22Z pjb: But what's hard is to track the evolution of gcc and clang. 2017-11-29T15:45:46Z pjb: I already have the C pre-processor in CL. 2017-11-29T15:46:15Z rumbler31: so I imagine whats also hard is that osx has changed the compiler used to generate their libraries, so supporting older osx platforms involves figuring out which one is being used 2017-11-29T15:46:25Z rumbler31: or leaving ffigen step to the user 2017-11-29T15:46:48Z pjb: Well, there's not a lot of pressure to support older versions in the Apple ecosystem. 2017-11-29T15:57:29Z svetlyak40wt quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-11-29T15:58:39Z svetlyak40wt joined #ccl 2017-11-29T16:01:03Z rumbler31: would a different set of.. uh, .ffi files be necessary for different osx versions? 2017-11-29T16:01:45Z pjb: Definitely. 2017-11-29T16:01:54Z pjb: At least in theory. 2017-11-29T16:02:54Z pjb: In practice, Apple tries to keep its framework versions compatible, so you can still use an old .ffi with a newer framework. 2017-11-29T16:03:25Z pjb: But eventually there will be too many deprecated APIs. It all depends on what you use. 2017-11-29T16:04:22Z rumbler31: I see 2017-11-29T16:05:01Z pjb: and sometimes you want to use newer stuff too, so you'd need new .ffi. 2017-11-29T16:29:45Z rumbler31: oh I see. so since apple doesn't publish the changes they make to clang, if they've changed the way c headers are parsed, we can't take advantage of that 2017-11-29T16:30:24Z rumbler31: ostensibly 2017-11-29T16:32:56Z pjb: Well, it's in the header, it's not the way it's parsed, it's what syntax is used in the headers. 2017-11-29T16:33:08Z pjb: In particular, implementation specific extensions. 2017-11-29T16:34:11Z pjb: There's of course another possibility, which is to load the shared libraries (frameworks), and to analyze the debugging information in them, in addition to the symbolic information provided. 2017-11-29T16:34:40Z pjb: But it may be incomplete. (eg. no symbolic constants (#defines)). 2017-11-29T16:42:41Z rme: mrottenkolber: I'm bad at using GitHub and bad at sing git. I sense a pattern here. 2017-11-29T16:43:09Z rme: s/sing/using/ of course. I cannot imagine a git song. 2017-11-29T17:42:05Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-29T18:33:03Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-29T18:47:54Z mrottenkolber: rme: the first time I was supposed to do a release on GitHub, I couldn’t find the button to create a new release. I looked for half an hour for sure. I ended up asking Luke... I could have sworn that button was invisible! 2017-11-29T18:56:19Z rme: I think the best way is to use the GitHub API to do all that. I made this release by hand. It took me all day to build and upload all the archives. 2017-11-29T18:56:45Z rme: And my slow DSL upload speed made it worse. 2017-11-29T18:57:40Z rme: When I moved out here to the Seattle area, I thought I'd have good net access at last, but it's still just as bad as it ever was at my old house. 2017-11-29T18:59:59Z rme: Maybe I'll have good net access if I move to France like I keep saying I will. 2017-11-29T19:06:49Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-11-29T19:08:58Z mrottenkolber: rme: I have a theory that wealthy countries have bad cable because it would be expensive for the telcos to modernize there 2017-11-29T19:09:26Z mrottenkolber: i.e. germany is notoriously badly covered 2017-11-29T19:10:34Z mrottenkolber: I hear Slovenia has 100Mbps and IPv6 everywhere 2017-11-29T19:12:43Z rme: That would be nice. 2017-11-29T19:17:42Z rumbler31: you could start your own isp 2017-11-29T19:18:41Z rme: Been there, done that, bought the modems. 2017-11-29T19:20:37Z rme: (I really did start an ISP back in the dial-up era.) 2017-11-29T19:54:23Z mrottenkolber: it took 2.5 hours and cost 10 bucks to download a 12MB game back then! The times! 2017-11-29T20:48:22Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-29T20:56:38Z svetlyak40wt joined #ccl 2017-11-29T20:57:22Z svetlyak_ joined #ccl 2017-11-29T20:57:22Z svetlyak_ is now known as svetlyak40wt_ 2017-11-29T21:01:19Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-29T21:06:28Z svetlyak40wt_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-29T21:11:54Z svetlyak40wt joined #ccl 2017-11-29T21:15:57Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-29T21:25:37Z eschatologist: rumbler31: You don’t have to figure out different compiler versions to use the latest Mac or iOS headers to target earlier versions of the OS. 2017-11-29T21:26:10Z rumbler31: oh hmm 2017-11-29T21:26:33Z eschatologist: rumbler31: It’s a commercial end user operating system. There’s binary compatibility. 2017-11-29T21:29:12Z eschatologist: The way Darwin-platform developers handle this is to set their Deployment Target setting in Xcode to the lowest OS version they support. That causes -mOS-version-min=VERSION to be passed to the compiler and linker, so (1) any compiler or linker behavior needed for the old OS is preserved and (2) an appropriate os_VERSION_MIN_REQUIRED preprocessor macro is set. 2017-11-29T21:29:39Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-11-29T21:29:54Z eschatologist: Eg to target Mac OS X 10.6 in Xcode 9.1, you set macOS Deployment Target to 10.6, it causes the compiler and linker to receive -mmacosx-version-min=10.6, and the preprocessor macro MACOSX_VERSION_MIN_REQUIRED is set to 10.6. 2017-11-29T21:31:21Z eschatologist: That in turn results in header magic in et al and in so APIs newer than 10.6 are marked __attribute__((weak_link)) and therefore are NULL when accessed on an earlier OS. 2017-11-29T21:32:28Z eschatologist: This information is also picked up in other ways, e.g, in Xcode’s documentation. 2017-11-29T21:32:32Z pjb: of course, C macros and C linkers are not used by CL programs. 2017-11-29T21:33:17Z pjb: Furthermore, since foreign libraries and frameworks are linked dynamically, you could support any macosx version, determining it at run-time. 2017-11-29T21:33:50Z eschatologist: So you really need to use libclang to parse Apple’s headers, and have an understanding of the clang command line parameters that are commonly used (so you can pass them to libclang). 2017-11-29T21:33:58Z pjb: But you would still need to process the headers once for each version, to know the set of available functions and methods, and the variants in constants (#defines), and types. 2017-11-29T21:34:30Z eschatologist: Sure. But you don’t want to do nil checks everywhere, you want to do “(if (macos:version ...))” checks. 2017-11-29T21:34:38Z pjb: I don't remember if and how you can specify #define macros to libclang to select a given version… 2017-11-29T21:35:54Z eschatologist: Actually, with a new enough clang, the __attribute__ that’s used is actually the version number, so you can associate it with the symbol. 2017-11-29T21:37:05Z eschatologist: So instead of just __attribute__((weak)) the compiler gets ((introduced=10.6)) or something like that. 2017-11-29T21:37:30Z eschatologist: You can make a single pass over a header and get all info for a platform. 2017-11-29T21:37:43Z eschatologist: (Again, with a new enough clang and a new enough SDK.) 2017-11-29T21:40:40Z eschatologist: rumbler31: Also Apple does publish our clang changes, after all we created clang... 2017-11-29T21:41:06Z pjb: This new attribute is cool indeed. 2017-11-29T21:50:35Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-29T21:50:55Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-11-29T21:51:17Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-29T22:09:55Z rumbler31: ah wow thanks for the info 2017-11-29T22:15:48Z rumbler31: so a set of .ffi files would be generated for each mac os version, which could be selectively loaded 2017-11-29T22:18:54Z eschatologist: Or a database could be generated covering all versions. 2017-11-29T22:20:14Z eschatologist: Then there are also FFI issues that could be made easier by other annotations that are used in Apple's headers. 2017-11-29T22:20:17Z pjb: It would depend on whether the ffi format would support it. 2017-11-29T22:20:32Z pjb: AFAIK, there's no provision for versionned symbols in .ffi files. 2017-11-29T22:20:54Z eschatologist: Yeah, *I'm* not talking about .ffi files, I'm talking about "an FFI." 2017-11-29T22:21:19Z pjb: Let's not rewrite the whole FFI subsystem. 2017-11-29T22:21:28Z eschatologist: For example, we have concepts of enum-like strings and enums that are exclusive vs non-exclusive, which are all indicated by __attribute__ and typedef and some importing of C++ syntax into ObjC. 2017-11-29T22:21:54Z eschatologist: That way things like notification name globals are translated to Swift enum values. 2017-11-29T22:22:01Z pjb: Yes, the NSString keys could be mapped to keywords. 2017-11-29T22:22:47Z eschatologist: I've suggested CFFI extend its support for those sorts of things, since they're based on general-purpose clang extensions that are useful in many contexts. (E.g. CFFI to libdispatch on Linux.) 2017-11-29T23:00:42Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-29T23:03:28Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-29T23:05:17Z jdz joined #ccl 2017-11-29T23:05:34Z pjb` joined #ccl 2017-11-29T23:08:10Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-29T23:08:56Z rme: OK, well, I suppose that the 1.11.5 is official. https://ccl.clozure.com/blog/?p=200 2017-11-29T23:11:07Z rme: I'm all too well aware that we have to do something about bringing ffigen up-to-date (or perhaps replacing it). 2017-11-29T23:12:46Z rme: That's almost certainly a thankless piece of work if ever there was one. 2017-11-29T23:53:12Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-30T00:10:12Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-11-30T00:56:19Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-30T01:01:23Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-11-30T01:23:17Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-11-30T01:31:03Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-30T02:31:12Z pjb` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-30T02:58:18Z pjb` joined #ccl 2017-11-30T04:01:57Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-30T04:03:26Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-11-30T05:23:08Z svetlyak40wt joined #ccl 2017-11-30T05:24:17Z svetlyak_ joined #ccl 2017-11-30T05:24:17Z svetlyak_ is now known as svetlyak40wt_ 2017-11-30T05:28:32Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-11-30T05:30:43Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-30T05:34:16Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-11-30T05:35:25Z BitPuffin|osx joined #ccl 2017-11-30T05:38:52Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-30T06:02:29Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-30T06:06:51Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-11-30T06:06:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-11-30T06:17:27Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2017-11-30T07:01:17Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-30T08:49:16Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-11-30T09:02:45Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-30T09:05:01Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-11-30T09:07:11Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-11-30T09:36:24Z milanj_ joined #ccl 2017-11-30T09:39:36Z milanj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-30T09:39:38Z carvite quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-30T09:40:35Z carvite joined #ccl 2017-11-30T09:54:33Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-11-30T10:03:25Z jackdani1l joined #ccl 2017-11-30T10:09:28Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-30T10:09:58Z alms_clozure quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-30T10:10:00Z jackdaniel quit (*.net *.split) 2017-11-30T10:12:42Z kini joined #ccl 2017-11-30T10:15:27Z alms_clozure joined #ccl 2017-11-30T10:42:37Z jackdani1l is now known as jackdaniel 2017-11-30T11:14:28Z astronavt[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-30T11:22:54Z norserob quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-30T12:02:12Z BitPuffin|osx joined #ccl 2017-11-30T12:28:39Z astronavt[m] joined #ccl 2017-11-30T12:44:02Z dustinm` quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-11-30T12:53:46Z dustinm` joined #ccl 2017-11-30T13:03:21Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-30T13:07:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-30T13:09:16Z hhdave_ joined #ccl 2017-11-30T13:10:02Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-11-30T13:10:02Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2017-11-30T13:26:54Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-30T13:33:26Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-30T14:30:48Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-30T14:32:28Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-11-30T16:58:12Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-30T17:44:10Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-11-30T18:05:30Z fortitude joined #ccl 2017-11-30T18:15:22Z rme: hi 2017-11-30T18:18:11Z svetlyak40wt_ quit 2017-11-30T18:52:21Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-30T18:58:30Z eschatologist joined #ccl 2017-11-30T19:16:47Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-11-30T19:37:03Z jackdaniel: hey, congrats on the new release 2017-11-30T19:45:41Z milanj_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-11-30T19:46:27Z milanj_ joined #ccl 2017-11-30T19:54:55Z rme: Thank you. It's basically just a lot of bug-fixes, but I thought it was important to bring things up-to-date. 2017-11-30T19:55:30Z rme: So, for all the git and GitHub users who are more expert than I am... 2017-11-30T19:56:21Z rme: When I used Subversion, I just committed changes to the tree. Am I not supposed to do that any more? That is, am I supposed to make a pull request from my private fork for every change I make? 2017-11-30T19:58:19Z rme: At my most recent job (which I just left), we would always make PRs for every change, but we did it in a branch in the same repository. That is, we didn't have private forks. 2017-11-30T19:58:44Z jackdaniel: you can push directly to the main repository 2017-11-30T19:58:50Z jackdaniel: you just need to set the origin 2017-11-30T19:59:07Z jackdaniel: of course if you have someone, who will do peer reviews it's better to have them 2017-11-30T19:59:30Z jackdaniel: but otherwise there is nothing what prevents you from commiting locally and you computer and doing git push directly to ccl project 2017-11-30T19:59:44Z jackdaniel: re bug fixes, these are often more important than features 2017-11-30T19:59:57Z rme: I want everyone else to make PRs, but I want to push to the main repository directly myself. :-) 2017-11-30T20:00:17Z rme: I suppose I should follow the same procedure that I ask everyone else to follow. 2017-11-30T20:01:14Z jackdaniel: well, it makes only sense if you have someone else who will review them and merge for you 2017-11-30T20:01:53Z jackdaniel: otherwise making pull request is just a formality which: 1) distracts you, 2) is tedious 2017-11-30T20:01:56Z jackdaniel: imo ofc 2017-11-30T20:07:09Z rme: I think you have a good point. Making PRs is currently a useless formality for me. I will look forward to the day when I can make PRs and have additional CCL hackers available to review them. 2017-11-30T20:08:19Z mrottenkolber: rme: you should set the master branch to protected (in the GitHub UI) to prevent accidental force pushes 2017-11-30T20:09:14Z mrottenkolber: rme: regarding PRs, they can be nice for documenting ongoing work, but I also omit them for projects where I mostly commit myself 2017-11-30T20:09:52Z mrottenkolber: I would recommend making lots of short and long lived branches for features though. That is really the area where git shines. 2017-11-30T20:10:33Z mrottenkolber: It makes it very easy to track/combine/cherry-pick things from the various fronts of development 2017-11-30T20:11:09Z mrottenkolber: usually, my git repositories get mostly merge commits on master, i.e. each merge is some feature or bug fix with its own history 2017-11-30T20:11:50Z mrottenkolber: makes it easier to roll back individual features (groups of commits) using git revert 2017-11-30T20:12:26Z rme: That's what we did at $recent_job. 2017-11-30T20:13:29Z rme: But here's what has me wondering: I just changed a little message that gets printed out when ccl starts up. https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/commit/2742cf78b97ab065644ef00bc4a256b6ab0899c2 2017-11-30T20:14:17Z rme: I made a PR for that. That seemed a bit too much 2017-11-30T20:14:40Z mrottenkolber: tend to agree 2017-11-30T20:14:54Z jackdaniel: do you have someone to merge it? 2017-11-30T20:15:07Z mrottenkolber: jackdaniel has a point :-) 2017-11-30T20:15:13Z rme: No, I merged my own PR. 2017-11-30T20:16:23Z rme: I was just thinking I should follow the process I want everyone else to follow, but maybe I'm just causing myself extra hassle for no benefit. 2017-11-30T20:16:41Z jackdaniel: I'm too selfish to skip my name - I just slapped it right after names of prominent hackers who created ECL ;) but I would feel unease if there were information about consultancy etc 2017-11-30T20:17:17Z rme: Are you commenting on the blurb itself, jackdaniel? 2017-11-30T20:17:28Z jackdaniel: I think nobody will mind if maintainer pushes changes, I'd say most people do PRs conciously 2017-11-30T20:17:39Z jackdaniel: yes 2017-11-30T20:17:46Z jackdaniel: blurb as in "commit content" ? 2017-11-30T20:18:22Z jackdaniel: so they understand the purpose of making PR (i.e peer review, or acceptance from the maintainer) 2017-11-30T20:18:52Z jackdaniel: ah, that's also commit message, yes, that was about the blurb 2017-11-30T20:19:33Z rme: Yes. Re the blurb, I wanted to make it clear that CCL is free software, and that it is not Clozure Associates' proprietary product. 2017-11-30T20:19:49Z jackdaniel: understandable 2017-11-30T20:20:02Z rme: And by implication that it welcomes and needs help from other, non-Clozure sources. 2017-11-30T20:20:03Z jackdaniel: but I never had impression, that it's not free software (myself) 2017-11-30T20:20:20Z jackdaniel: but maybe it's just me 2017-11-30T20:20:59Z mrottenkolber: actually, when I first stumbled upon CCl I though it was non-free, and only later realized it was apache licensed 2017-11-30T20:21:02Z jackdaniel: I remember some people were suspicious about ABCL maintainers doing consultancy services (as if it were something wrong) - what is crazy imo 2017-11-30T20:21:21Z jackdaniel: earlier it was llgpl I think 2017-11-30T20:21:46Z jackdaniel: lgpl-2.1, sorry 2017-11-30T20:21:57Z mrottenkolber: the "open source is voluntary unpaid work" myth needs to go imho 2017-11-30T20:22:22Z rme: I'm not even a Clozure Associates employee any more. I don't want people to be under the impression that Clozure Associates is 100% funding the development of CCL. 2017-11-30T20:22:47Z rme: I really want to get more people involved in working on CCL. 2017-11-30T20:23:34Z jackdaniel: https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/906782773095968768 regarding open source ;) 2017-11-30T20:23:39Z rme: So, I thought that the "CCL is developed and maintained by Clozure Associates" line was misleading. 2017-11-30T20:23:47Z jackdaniel: agreed 2017-11-30T20:24:26Z jackdaniel: and regarding more people involved, I think that it's aspiration of each maintained free implmentation. But I think you'll gather contributors soon enough. CCL is pretty popular 2017-11-30T20:24:56Z rme: That gives the impression that you can just sit back and relax because Clozure Associates will pay all the CCL bills. And that's simply not the case. 2017-11-30T20:25:45Z jackdaniel: I have to go, congrats again :) 2017-11-30T20:25:51Z jackdaniel: I'll read the backlog later 2017-11-30T20:26:14Z rme: see you 2017-11-30T20:26:16Z mrottenkolber: on the topic of getting involved, I think I want to finish that monotonic time stuff I was working soon. I didn’t get much response from other implementations or cl-monotonic-time, and I figured its a good feature to have out of the box. 2017-11-30T20:26:27Z mrottenkolber: laters jackdaniel :-) 2017-11-30T20:26:54Z jackdaniel: mrottenkolber: I still have it "starred" in my email to respond some day 2017-11-30T20:27:06Z jackdaniel: since we're at it – I plan to implement it in ECL – when I have time ™ 2017-11-30T20:27:40Z mrottenkolber: jackdaniel: cool. I think once the platform code is *somewhere* it will be easy to port to all implementations 2017-11-30T20:30:56Z rme: I wonder if we should an a lisp kernel function called lisp_gettime() or something. Then, we could do the platform conditionalization stuff at the C level. 2017-11-30T20:31:45Z rme: Then, from lisp, we'd just do (%ff-call (%kernel-import target::kernel-import-lisp-gettime)) 2017-11-30T20:32:51Z rme: But if you want to make get-internal-real-time use a monotonic clonk on more platforms than ccl, maybe doing in lisp will better help meet that goal. 2017-11-30T20:33:19Z rme: "monotonic clonk"? 2017-11-30T20:33:39Z mrottenkolber: I question the general assumption that it is desireable to have C code instead of lisp code (: 2017-11-30T20:34:02Z rme: haha 2017-11-30T20:34:05Z rme: burn the witch! 2017-11-30T20:34:15Z mrottenkolber: net even that 2017-11-30T20:34:18Z mrottenkolber: *not 2017-11-30T20:34:42Z mrottenkolber: I would feel a bit defeated I guess^^ 2017-11-30T20:35:52Z mrottenkolber: of course it might, all things given, be simply the simplest way to avoid consing up boxed numbers on 32bit platforms 2017-11-30T20:36:24Z rme: I took this approach for interfacing to stat(2) and friends. But that's almost a pathologically bad case, since stat (especially on Linux) is super weird. 2017-11-30T20:36:44Z mrottenkolber: I figured there might be some CCL ffi stuff that I don’t know about which deals with foreign integers that I can use 2017-11-30T20:37:51Z mrottenkolber: what’s with ffigen btw? it depends on an API of an unsupported version of $compiler or what was the trouble there? 2017-11-30T20:38:57Z mrottenkolber reads the ticket 2017-11-30T20:38:59Z rme: ffigen is a set of patches to gcc-4.0. that's getting pretty old, and there are header constructs that gcc-4.0 doesn't understand. 2017-11-30T20:39:08Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-11-30T20:40:42Z mrottenkolber: c2ffi looks attractive 2017-11-30T20:40:46Z rme: The last time ffigen was updated, I think it was to teach it how to handle something called transparent unions. 2017-11-30T20:40:58Z mrottenkolber: ouch 2017-11-30T20:42:06Z rme: rpav's thing? Yeah, I think that might be worth a look. I hate to have to bring in all of llvm, but it's going to understand all the modern stuff. 2017-11-30T20:43:06Z rme: There's a library called libclang that is stable and has a C interface, but I'm not sure it provides enough info (like about C preprocessor macros). 2017-11-30T20:43:10Z mrottenkolber: but if I understand correctly c2ffi would be something of a standalone tool, and we just parse the json? I.e. an advanced build-dependency 2017-11-30T20:43:48Z rme: Yes, that's true, of course. 2017-11-30T20:43:56Z mrottenkolber: or can ffigen generate new bindings at runtime? (I don’t know) 2017-11-30T20:44:12Z astronavt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-30T20:45:07Z rme: no, no, it just generates an s-expression style representation of the info in the header files. The code in ccl:library;parse-ffi.lisp turns it into the .cdb files that the #_/#$/#& reader macros use. 2017-11-30T20:45:45Z mrottenkolber: Again regarding c2ffi, being able to just quickload a json parser and get going seems nice. (: 2017-11-30T20:49:07Z mrottenkolber: have to look at the s-expression representation to get an idea I guess 2017-11-30T20:52:30Z rme: yeah. ffigen is a possibly tedious, but important, piece of work that we're going to have to address soon. 2017-11-30T20:54:59Z rme: I protected the master and 1.11 branches, by the way. Thanks for that tip. 2017-11-30T20:58:01Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-11-30T21:21:06Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-11-30T21:40:16Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-11-30T21:45:11Z astronavt quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-11-30T21:57:17Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-11-30T22:04:12Z sabetts quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.3.1) 2017-11-30T22:04:30Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-11-30T22:12:28Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-11-30T22:39:32Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-11-30T22:41:14Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-11-30T22:46:23Z astronavt quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2017-11-30T23:02:42Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-11-30T23:42:15Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-11-30T23:47:03Z astronavt quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)