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Details are in this paste: http://paste.lisp.org/display/355177 2017-09-06T13:22:20Z pjb: boo or bar? 2017-09-06T13:23:10Z pjb: works for be with (bar): 2017-09-06T13:23:10Z pjb: (load (compile-file "/tmp/b.lisp")) 2017-09-06T13:23:10Z pjb: > Debug: division-by-zero detected 2017-09-06T13:23:10Z pjb: > performing / on (100500 0) 2017-09-06T13:23:38Z jackdaniel: svetlyak40wt: maybe you have some low debug and safety levels? 2017-09-06T13:23:41Z svetlyak40wt: bar, boo is a typo 2017-09-06T13:23:47Z pjb: and the restarts work. 2017-09-06T13:24:24Z pjb: So if you get an invalid-memory-access it may be because your program uses FFI and you have problems in the C code, or else it may be a bug in your ccl installation. 2017-09-06T13:24:30Z svetlyak40wt: I have (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (speed 1))) at the beginning of the file. Isnt this enought? 2017-09-06T13:25:07Z pjb: to be sure, add safety 3: (declaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (speed 1) (space 1))) 2017-09-06T13:25:11Z svetlyak40wt: No, I've created a test.lisp file and just start Emacs, then slime, then load file, then (bar) 2017-09-06T13:27:04Z pjb: restarts from sldb work, I've never seen them fall in CCL::INVALID-MEMORY-ACCESS 2017-09-06T13:41:15Z svetlyak40wt: Interesting. This error can be reproduced in my installation in 100%. 2017-09-06T13:42:31Z svetlyak40wt: Forgot to say, I start emacs with `ros emacs` command. Could this be a reason of the error? 2017-09-06T13:42:55Z svetlyak40wt: Is it possible to exclude emacs from this equation and to test frame restarts in plain CCL repl? 2017-09-06T13:53:52Z pjb: Of course, you can run ccl directly in a terminal. 2017-09-06T13:54:16Z pjb: Once in the debugger, type :r to list the restarts, and (:c #) to continue with the restart number #. 2017-09-06T13:55:30Z svetlyak40wt: But how to restart a stack frame? 2017-09-06T13:57:31Z pjb: There is no such notion. You just invoke one of the restarts. 2017-09-06T13:58:40Z pjb: eg. http://paste.lisp.org/display/355179 2017-09-06T14:00:23Z svetlyak40wt: But how SLIME restarts a frame when I hit 'r' on it in SLDB? 2017-09-06T14:00:44Z pjb: The same was as the ccl debugger: by calling invoke-restart 2017-09-06T14:01:37Z pjb: Err, no, it's different. 2017-09-06T14:01:39Z pjb: Let me see. 2017-09-06T14:02:39Z pjb: Ah, I reproduce your bug. 2017-09-06T14:03:11Z pjb: Indeed, r on a frame must be implemented by calling some implementation internals, and this has probably bit rot since it was implemented. 2017-09-06T14:03:21Z pjb: My guess is that it would work with some older version of ccl. 2017-09-06T14:04:14Z pjb: I never used this 'r' sldb command before. 2017-09-06T14:05:06Z jdz quit (*.net *.split) 2017-09-06T14:05:21Z pjb: it calls swank:restart-frame 2017-09-06T14:05:57Z pjb: which calls ccl:apply-in-frame. 2017-09-06T14:06:29Z pjb: it seems to be a public api (exported symbols), so we can consider it a bug in ccl perhaps. 2017-09-06T14:08:37Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-06T14:10:45Z _rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-06T14:11:40Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-06T14:14:17Z svetlyak40wt quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-09-06T14:31:23Z svetlyak40wt joined #ccl 2017-09-06T14:31:58Z svetlyak40wt quit 2017-09-06T14:33:04Z svetlyak40wt joined #ccl 2017-09-06T14:39:26Z svetlyak40wt: Sorry, I've been disconnected. Guys, are there any replies after "But how SLIME restarts a frame when I hit 'r' on it in SLDB?"? 2017-09-06T14:41:46Z svetlyak40wt: Oh, sorry, I found that channel's log https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/ccl/ccl-2017-09.txt is updated in realtime (which is awesome!) :) 2017-09-06T14:44:12Z svetlyak40wt: pjb: thank you for confirmation of my bug report. By the way, I found that frames are restartable from this great tutorial: http://malisper.me/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/ 2017-09-06T14:44:37Z jdz joined #ccl 2017-09-06T14:45:00Z pjb: Thanks. 2017-09-06T14:45:31Z pjb: Yes, there were more replies. you can check them in the logs: https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/ccl/ 2017-09-06T15:26:30Z _rumbler31: svetlyak40wt: so frames are restartable in ccl following the methods outlined in the blog post? 2017-09-06T15:28:50Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-09-06T15:37:26Z svetlyak40wt quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-09-06T15:38:52Z svetlyak40wt joined #ccl 2017-09-06T16:04:42Z svetlyak40wt quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-09-06T16:05:23Z svetlyak40wt joined #ccl 2017-09-06T16:43:54Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-09-06T16:59:11Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-06T18:19:50Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-09-06T18:25:52Z edgar-rft joined #ccl 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(make-broadcast-stream *standard-output*) to the log facility rather than *standard-output* directly; but to get there I did clean up the code area around logging and the cleanup is part of the commitdiff 2017-09-08T23:11:29Z dim: (and also a M-q that fixed the indentation in the .asd file, anyway) 2017-09-08T23:13:49Z sabetts: interesting 2017-09-08T23:26:54Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-08T23:27:02Z dim: I tried to reproduce with a minimal test case, but failed to do so 2017-09-08T23:27:54Z dim: in pgloader, it resulted into a stack trace, in my minimal test case it's pretty well handled, even if --batch issues loads of information about the failure 2017-09-08T23:28:16Z dim: ccl --batch --eval '(progn (format t "~%") (close *standard-output*))' 2017-09-08T23:28:35Z dim: I don't know if that output is expected or not, but in case it's not, you can play with it! 2017-09-08T23:30:16Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-09-08T23:31:06Z dim: pgloader still has the strange docker issue with CCL at https://hub.docker.com/r/dimitri/pgloader/builds/bspgjmeudy5jisk2cnfis8m/ ; btw 2017-09-08T23:37:44Z pjb: dim: use also --norc in your tests… 2017-09-08T23:37:58Z pjb: --no-init for ccl. 2017-09-08T23:38:52Z pjb: And yes, it's not conforming to close *terminal-io* and *standard-output* and *standard-input* are usually bound to *terminal-io*… 2017-09-08T23:45:00Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-08T23:48:08Z sjl_ joined #ccl 2017-09-08T23:49:27Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-09-09T00:35:50Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-09T00:44:20Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-09T02:21:27Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-09-09T08:34:35Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-09-09T09:30:08Z BitPuffin|osx joined #ccl 2017-09-09T10:03:05Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-09T11:28:26Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-09T11:38:38Z mrottenkolber1 joined #ccl 2017-09-09T13:00:16Z milanj 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mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-11T12:00:35Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-11T12:36:12Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-11T13:09:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-11T13:10:51Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-11T14:00:03Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-11T14:49:29Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-11T16:03:02Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-11T16:25:23Z dim: hi, is it possible that ccl “eats” command line argument --debug in the same way it does --batch or --heap-reserve when saving an application as a binary image (with kernel)? 2017-09-11T16:28:55Z jackdaniel: dim: did you try to put it after -- ? 2017-09-11T16:29:12Z jackdaniel: like ./application --something-eaten -- --debug 2017-09-11T16:47:19Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-11T17:13:14Z ddp joined #ccl 2017-09-11T17:24:49Z dim: well then the application sees it as an argument rather than an option, if course 2017-09-11T18:44:20Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-09-11T19:28:16Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-11T19:39:38Z xrme: dim: yes, --debug is processed by the lisp kernel in the same way --batch is. 2017-09-11T19:40:22Z dim: ok thanks for confirming, I couldn't imagine another explaination 2017-09-11T19:40:37Z dim: in pgloader I have --client-min-messages debug too so users may use that 2017-09-11T19:40:56Z dim: (--client-min-messages allows more than quiet/debug/verbose, and looks like PostgreSQL log settings) 2017-09-11T19:49:13Z xrme: You could also use a shell wrapper: exec /path/to/my-ccl -n -- "$@" 2017-09-11T19:53:12Z dim: but then I would have to change the cli parser I'm using, which also parses -- into arguments rather than options, and then says that the --debug file isn't found 2017-09-11T19:53:17Z dim: anyway, --client-min-messages is good enough 2017-09-11T19:59:52Z mrottenkolber: Isn’t that something affected by the application-class? 2017-09-11T20:00:31Z xrme: args like --debug and --batch are processed by the lisp kernel (in C code) before lisp even starts 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2017-09-22T01:29:44Z edgar-rft quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-09-22T01:31:01Z edgar-rft joined #ccl 2017-09-22T01:45:06Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-22T02:41:54Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-22T04:10:08Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-09-22T04:44:53Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-22T06:16:46Z vrunhofen joined #ccl 2017-09-22T06:17:45Z vrunhofen: Hi there :) , how's everyone going? Is there any way to not print the welcome message header, on starting CCL? 2017-09-22T06:32:20Z pjb: vrunhofen: you can patch ccl. 2017-09-22T06:32:40Z sigjuice quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-09-22T06:37:49Z vrunhofen: pjb: Hmm, do you think it's baked into the kernel? And can't be modified in source even? https://github.com/Clozure/ccl 2017-09-22T06:37:51Z sigjuice joined #ccl 2017-09-22T06:38:41Z pjb: Not the kernel, but the CL sources. 2017-09-22T06:39:05Z pjb: ie. you can save a modified executable image. 2017-09-22T06:40:41Z |3b|: --quiet --batch 2017-09-22T06:41:13Z vrunhofen: |3b| !! thanks. 2017-09-22T06:41:36Z pjb: --batch is a different mode of operation… 2017-09-22T06:41:37Z |3b|: or -Q -b if you need to save characters for some reason : 2017-09-22T06:42:15Z |3b|: yeah, probably should check the implications of --batch 2017-09-22T06:45:22Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-22T06:45:46Z vrunhofen: -b makes it ineffective as a repl. no output.. no prompt even 2017-09-22T06:55:17Z vrunhofen: can remove most of it by altering CCL::*marketing-blurb* 2017-09-22T06:55:47Z vrunhofen: version header is still printed. 2017-09-22T06:59:55Z pjb: (setf ccl::*inhibit-greeting* t) and save a normal executable image. 2017-09-22T07:00:27Z vrunhofen: yep.. just did that 2017-09-22T07:00:49Z vrunhofen: thanks pjb, |3b|, 2017-09-22T07:00:57Z vrunhofen quit 2017-09-22T07:37:14Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-22T08:03:50Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-22T08:06:04Z kini joined #ccl 2017-09-22T08:33:42Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-09-22T08:47:50Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-22T09:52:05Z dustinm` quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-09-22T09:55:13Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-22T09:56:15Z dustinm` joined #ccl 2017-09-22T10:43:31Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-22T11:35:01Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-22T12:44:35Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-22T13:03:22Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-22T14:00:20Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-09-22T14:56:13Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-22T15:35:11Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-22T15:51:39Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-22T16:31:27Z astronavt joined #ccl 2017-09-22T16:46:38Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-22T17:06:41Z BitPuffin|osx joined #ccl 2017-09-22T17:26:35Z ddp joined #ccl 2017-09-22T17:35:57Z ddp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-09-22T17:44:56Z ddp joined #ccl 2017-09-22T17:49:08Z ddp quit (Client Quit) 2017-09-22T17:50:16Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-09-22T17:58:52Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-22T17:59:21Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-22T19:55:35Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-22T20:23:40Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-22T21:18:53Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-09-22T21:41:40Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-22T21:41:53Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-09-22T23:47:04Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-23T00:41:00Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-23T00:45:21Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-23T01:52:04Z sjl_ joined #ccl 2017-09-23T01:52:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-09-23T02:22:55Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-09-23T02:23:05Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-23T02:30:48Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-09-23T02:31:07Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) 2017-09-23T05:10:41Z Intensity quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-09-23T06:04:59Z eschatologist quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2017-09-23T06:05:58Z eschatologist joined #ccl 2017-09-23T06:52:21Z Intensity joined #ccl 2017-09-23T07:21:35Z Intensity quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-09-23T07:30:09Z Intensity joined #ccl 2017-09-23T07:31:12Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-23T08:28:33Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-23T08:28:51Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-23T08:52:40Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-23T10:04:16Z stylewarning joined #ccl 2017-09-23T10:04:22Z stylewarning: Hey folks. 2017-09-23T10:04:59Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-23T10:05:49Z stylewarning: I can't really tell what's broken here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/356633 2017-09-23T10:06:28Z stylewarning: complex float arrays seem to usually be broken in CCL 2017-09-23T10:26:13Z stylewarning: Also, doesn't seem the github Darwin x86_64 lisp_kernel makefile received billstclair's -no_pie linker flag, which I needed in order to rebuild the kernel. 2017-09-23T12:52:16Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-23T12:56:17Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-23T13:06:15Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-23T15:43:00Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-23T16:09:28Z astronavt[m] joined #ccl 2017-09-23T16:16:22Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-09-23T17:34:57Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-23T17:52:00Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-23T18:14:32Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-23T18:50:11Z xrme: stylewarning: I seem to see the -no_pie flag in the sources from GitHub. 2017-09-23T18:51:39Z xrme: stylewarning: as for complex float arrays, you are probably right about bugs. There's one I know about for sure, namely https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/23 2017-09-23T18:51:50Z xrme: s/probably/certainly 2017-09-23T19:23:36Z stylewarning: xrme: I found another bug in it yesterday, possibly the source of many issues 2017-09-23T19:23:52Z stylewarning: getting the ivector pointer to a complex double-float array is off (too early) by 8 bytes 2017-09-23T19:36:09Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-23T20:51:07Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-09-23T22:49:26Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-23T22:51:38Z bugrum joined #ccl 2017-09-23T22:52:10Z bugrum: Hi everyone. I have a question regarding ccldoc. Is there some documentation on this file format and what tools are used to generate the documentation? 2017-09-23T22:53:27Z bugrum: I've been looking at the ccldocs provided within my installation of CCL but I didn't see anything that explicitly documented the markup or tools that are used to parse the markup 2017-09-23T22:53:43Z bugrum: sorry if this is documented somewhere, I'm still exploring the documentation 2017-09-23T22:59:14Z bugrum: never mind I think I found it :-) 2017-09-24T00:00:39Z eschatologist: If nothing else there’s the source, right? 2017-09-24T00:07:36Z xrme: As you probably found, https://github.com/Clozure/ccldoc is the repository for the documentation system itself. The file ccldoc.ccldoc is the documentation for it. 2017-09-24T00:08:49Z xrme: https://trac.clozure.com/ccldoc/wiki/CCLDocOverview is a pre-formatted, though somewhat out-of-date, version. 2017-09-24T00:11:04Z eschatologist: I’m still occasionally playing with trying to get QuickLisp working with MCL, a little stymied by path handling at the moment. 2017-09-24T00:18:24Z xrme: A glutton for punishment, eh? 2017-09-24T01:32:45Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-09-24T02:35:47Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-24T02:37:09Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-09-24T02:38:07Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-24T02:58:10Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-24T03:23:24Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-24T03:32:10Z bugrum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-24T04:17:11Z stylewarning: is there documentation about CCL's hash tables and custom hash functions 2017-09-24T07:25:38Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-24T07:44:30Z judas joined #ccl 2017-09-24T07:44:53Z judas is now known as Guest65354 2017-09-24T07:47:26Z Guest65354 quit (Client Quit) 2017-09-24T08:18:42Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-24T08:22:08Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-24T08:39:53Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-24T10:42:50Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-24T11:37:49Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-24T12:00:10Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-24T12:42:35Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-24T12:48:27Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-24T13:08:26Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-24T13:08:46Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-24T15:08:44Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-24T17:48:16Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-24T17:53:10Z mrottenkolber quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-09-24T17:53:31Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-24T21:15:35Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-24T21:19:34Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-09-24T21:26:04Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-24T23:17:09Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-09-24T23:20:23Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2017-09-24T23:27:06Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-09-24T23:36:32Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-09-25T00:51:15Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-09-25T04:26:44Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-25T04:48:07Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-25T08:29:32Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-25T09:20:09Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-25T09:38:03Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-25T10:17:42Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-25T10:37:15Z BitPuffin|osx joined #ccl 2017-09-25T10:41:52Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-25T12:15:33Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-25T12:25:55Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-09-25T13:38:09Z lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 2017-09-25T13:57:45Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-25T14:28:30Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-25T15:07:54Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-25T16:27:59Z emaczen joined #ccl 2017-09-25T16:29:19Z emaczen: I've written declarations for my code and SBCL is executing my code significantly faster than CCL 2017-09-25T16:29:39Z emaczen: I used (declaim (ftype ... )) -- should this work with CCL? 2017-09-25T18:54:13Z _rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-25T19:38:25Z pjb: emaczen: you can check by using declaim optimizize and disassemble. 2017-09-25T19:47:14Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-09-25T19:50:23Z sabetts quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-25T19:50:38Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-09-25T21:05:39Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-09-25T22:36:34Z milanj_ joined #ccl 2017-09-25T22:38:14Z milanj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-09-25T22:52:04Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-09-25T23:32:46Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-25T23:37:06Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-26T01:58:03Z emaczen: pjb: Is there supposed to be any difference in declarations between CCL and SBCL, or do you usually have to do anything between the two? 2017-09-26T02:09:18Z xrme: emaczen: Different Common Lisp implementations make different trade-offs. SBCL works hard at optimizing code, and can deliver faster performance in certain circumstances. CCL generally tries to produce reasonable code very quickly. 2017-09-26T02:11:01Z xrme: You can often get CCL to generate better code, but it sometimes takes more work and more declarations. And sometimes, SBCL just beats it, plain and simple. That's often true on numerically-intensive code. 2017-09-26T02:11:37Z emaczen: Yeah, I get that. What can I expect with space efficiency? 2017-09-26T02:12:22Z xrme: I think it depends how you measure it. Usually, ccl's heap image sizes are smaller. 2017-09-26T02:12:34Z emaczen: Right now I am getting a 400MB executable and my other executables for similar programs are around 150M 2017-09-26T02:12:43Z emaczen: xrme: I added up everythin 2017-09-26T02:12:50Z emaczen: heap stack and static 2017-09-26T02:13:18Z emaczen: xrme: It could be that this program is just larger -- I don't really know 2017-09-26T02:14:23Z xrme: You could look at the output of ccl:heap-utilization to see what objects are taking up memory. 2017-09-26T02:22:29Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-09-26T02:25:39Z emaczen: xrme: My heap size was about 129M and the size of the static space was about 280M 2017-09-26T03:07:00Z emaczen: xrme: the static space is for loading your code right? 2017-09-26T03:07:51Z xrme: Approximately yes. When you do save-application, functions (which are at least mostly "pure") are relocated there so the gc has less work to do. 2017-09-26T03:08:59Z emaczen: xrme: Yes, I will be satisfied if I can just reduce the size of the static space 2017-09-26T03:09:53Z xrme: static space is mmap'd in from the image file, so it's not necessarily all resident, by the way. 2017-09-26T03:10:40Z emaczen: xrme: You mean in RAM right? 2017-09-26T03:10:49Z xrme: resident in ram, yes 2017-09-26T03:11:06Z emaczen: what defines "pure" 2017-09-26T03:11:35Z xrme: maybe immutable would be another word 2017-09-26T03:11:54Z emaczen: xrme: got it. 2017-09-26T03:14:15Z emaczen: I'm probably loading more code than ever gets used, because some of my dependencies have grown and I have not split them into separate asdf systems 2017-09-26T03:19:51Z pjb: emaczen: my point is be sure to (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (space 3) (debug 0) (safety 0))) to get the fastest (and buggiest) results. And be sure to eliminate any further optimize declarations in your libraries! 2017-09-26T03:20:15Z pjb: emaczen: you wouldn't want to compare #+sbcl (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (space 3) (debug 0) (safety 0))) with #+ccl (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (space 0) (debug 3) (safety 3))) 2017-09-26T03:24:14Z emaczen: pjb: They are using the same (declaim (optimize ...)) forms of course 2017-09-26T03:24:38Z emaczen: (DECLAIM (OPTIMIZE (SPEED 3) (SPACE 3))) -- is what I am using at the top of each file 2017-09-26T03:25:34Z pjb: emaczen: no, never put optimize declarations in your source files! 2017-09-26T03:25:46Z pjb: emaczen: put them in your compilation scripts! 2017-09-26T03:26:12Z pjb: And if you don't specify space and debug, you inherit previous values that can be different! 2017-09-26T03:27:37Z emaczen: pjb: I have a macro that generates that form, but that could be several hours of removing... 2017-09-26T03:28:29Z emaczen: pjb: Any suggestions for reducing the size of the static space (that is my top priority at the moment) 2017-09-26T03:28:37Z xrme: You could possibly save some space by setting ccl:*save-source-locations* to nil. 2017-09-26T03:29:16Z pjb: Write a tree shaker. ;-) 2017-09-26T03:31:37Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-09-26T03:32:51Z emaczen: pjb: Where can I find info on declarations? Doesn't the standard just say that an implementation can do nothing? 2017-09-26T03:33:46Z pjb: it says. Therefore you will find more info in the documentation of the implementation (or its sources). And of course, with your experience. 2017-09-26T03:37:51Z emaczen: pjb: Do you know of any texinfo sources for CCL? 2017-09-26T03:40:47Z pjb: /usr/local/src/ccl/doc/manual/ is written mostly in ccldoc format. I guess you could implement it to generate TeXinfo. 2017-09-26T03:41:38Z pjb: emaczen: https://github.com/Clozure/ccldoc 2017-09-26T03:41:51Z pjb: Seems it can already generate LaTeX. 2017-09-26T03:42:05Z pjb: even if not-quite-complete. 2017-09-26T03:42:44Z xrme: I'm not willing to write documentation in texinfo format. And especially not in DocBook. 2017-09-26T03:43:26Z pjb: Actually, we'd only need to generate from ccldoc to one of the format supported by pandoc, and use pandoc to convert to TeXinfo. 2017-09-26T03:44:00Z pjb: ie.: docbook, haddock, html, json, latex, markdown, markdown_github, markdown_mmd, markdown_phpextra, markdown_strict, mediawiki, native, opml, org, rst, textile 2017-09-26T03:44:40Z emaczen: I just wanted to view it in emacs 2017-09-26T03:45:04Z pjb: Use M-x w3m-browse 2017-09-26T03:45:15Z pjb: or read the ccldoc sources. 2017-09-26T03:45:32Z xrme: you can view https://ccl.clozure.com/docs/ccl.html 2017-09-26T03:48:24Z emaczen: I guess w3m isn't so bad 2017-09-26T04:05:14Z milanj_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-26T05:43:23Z emaczen quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-09-26T07:23:49Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-26T07:48:04Z milanj_ joined #ccl 2017-09-26T08:53:56Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-26T09:07:40Z adlai joined #ccl 2017-09-26T09:51:46Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-09-26T11:04:08Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-26T11:45:29Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-26T12:01:01Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-26T13:00:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-09-26T13:03:48Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-26T13:56:19Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-26T14:30:46Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-26T16:25:30Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-09-26T16:40:06Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-26T18:50:26Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-26T18:50:43Z milanj_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-26T20:40:31Z _rumbler31: is there a log for this channel? 2017-09-26T20:56:42Z pjb: yes. 2017-09-26T21:07:23Z pjb: ah if only there was a kind of system where you could type something like irc log ccl, and it would give you the name of the server where it's stored. And perhaps even the path to the directory where the log files are stored… 2017-09-26T21:07:31Z pjb: I wonder if we could something like that… 2017-09-26T21:08:19Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-26T21:08:26Z pjb: In the sixties, they have databases on disk pack… But I don't think it could scale… http://www.masswerk.at/google60/ 2017-09-26T21:10:20Z _rumbler31: yes I suppose that was rather low effort 2017-09-26T21:18:26Z _rumbler31: pjb: earlier you wrote that optimization declaims shouldn't be put in source files but rather in compilation scripts. From the standpoint of quickloading a system you wrote, where should that go? I suppose there must be some asdf hook where you add the "when compiling, do this" work? 2017-09-26T21:20:38Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-09-26T21:32:44Z pjb: _rumbler31: why are you quickloading? 2017-09-26T21:33:01Z pjb: You see, the optimization level depends on what you are doing, why you are compiling. 2017-09-26T21:33:18Z pjb: If you are compiling to check the syntax, you want compilation-speed, but you don't care about anything else. 2017-09-26T21:33:40Z pjb: If you are compiling to test and debug, then you want debug 3 and safety 3, but again, you don't care about speed or space. 2017-09-26T21:34:12Z pjb: If you are compiling to run on a high end server with terabytes of RAM, you may care more about speed than space, but not about debugging (safety always 3). 2017-09-26T21:34:37Z pjb: If you are compiling to run on small PC, you may want speed and space and not debug (but still safety 3; always safety 3). 2017-09-26T21:35:09Z pjb: ok, there's one case you may use safety 0, it's when you're compiling a library to be used by C programmers… But AFAIK, only ecl allows you to do that. 2017-09-26T21:35:16Z _rumbler31: i suppose what I meant to say was that I know what you say makes sense but I haven't seen someone describe an actual workflow that reflects mechanically how to do these things 2017-09-26T21:35:29Z pjb: But again, if the C programmer uses a lisp library, it's for safety 3, otherwise he'd use a C library. 2017-09-26T21:36:03Z _rumbler31: I've seen someone describe how to wire asdf to run tests on your package, but if you're sitting in the repl and you want to compile the world for a certain optimization set then you.... 2017-09-26T21:36:18Z pjb: So the workflow is that when your rc files are loaded, you're in for interactive development and debugging work, so (speed 0) (space 0) (debug 3) (safety 3) (compilation-speed 3). 2017-09-26T21:36:44Z pjb: And if you quickload a library that fucking change those optimization levels, you may be hosed and lose days in debugging some fucking safety 0 code! 2017-09-26T21:37:02Z pjb: So no optimization level in source code. 2017-09-26T21:37:08Z pjb: Only in rc files and other compilation scripts. 2017-09-26T21:37:08Z _rumbler31: either have already loaded the code somehow and need to "recompile" or else you have to start over, set optimization options and then load everything? 2017-09-26T21:37:32Z pjb: When you generate the binaries for a given target, you have a generate-application.lisp script that you run without the rc files (-norc). 2017-09-26T21:38:05Z pjb: So it can load quicklisp (not necessarily from your home dir also), set the optimization level, quickload your sources and dependencies, and save the executable image. 2017-09-26T21:38:32Z pjb: and yes, since asdf is not too good, you will have to clean ~/.cache/common-lisp first! 2017-09-26T21:38:53Z pjb: Notice also that usually while developping you won't have the same set of *features* as when generaring the production binaries. 2017-09-26T21:39:22Z pjb: So you definitely want to kill ~/.cache/common-lisp each time you switch between development builds and production builds (and even more often). 2017-09-26T21:40:08Z pjb: The cache should be keyed on the *features* list… Oh well, it's already good it's keyed on the implementation, version and host (or was on the host, damned they removed it, so now you cannot compile on NFS shares!). 2017-09-26T21:40:30Z _rumbler31: I see 2017-09-26T21:40:34Z pjb: Perhaps it should be advised to configure a different .cache/common-lisp to compile in generate scripts… 2017-09-26T21:41:54Z pjb: The thing is that there are a lot of little details that come into play when you start thinking about those different use case for a lisp compiler. There are a lot of different situations. So we have to separate the information that is relevant to the source code, from the other parameters, relevant to the specific situation. 2017-09-26T21:42:39Z pjb: For example, when you're developping/debugging, you will be using slime/swank so your lisp image will be full of threads. But some implementations cannot save images when there are threads running! 2017-09-26T21:43:03Z pjb: Hence the use of a generate script that runs on a bare lisp, and with a controlled set of loaded libraries. 2017-09-26T21:43:57Z pjb: There's the notion of reproducible builds. The idea being that if you checkout a given revision, you should be able to build the same binary now, or ten years later, or on a different workstation, etc. 2017-09-26T21:44:16Z pjb: https://reproducible-builds.org 2017-09-26T21:44:27Z _rumbler31: I'm a fan of reproducible builds 2017-09-26T21:44:36Z pjb: So this is also a consideration. 2017-09-26T21:45:07Z pjb: Yeah, we should definitely use a separate cache directory for builds… 2017-09-26T21:45:55Z _rumbler31: i forgot about the cache 2017-09-26T21:47:13Z _rumbler31: ty pjb: 2017-09-26T21:47:30Z pjb: yrw 2017-09-26T21:48:56Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-09-26T21:56:00Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-26T23:11:20Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-26T23:15:47Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-27T00:22:10Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-09-27T00:27:50Z jdz joined #ccl 2017-09-27T02:57:06Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-27T03:12:55Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-09-27T04:19:50Z rumbler3_ joined #ccl 2017-09-27T04:30:19Z rumbler31 quit (*.net *.split) 2017-09-27T07:46:56Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-27T07:50:48Z dim quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-09-27T07:51:55Z dim joined #ccl 2017-09-27T08:06:31Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-27T08:33:16Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-09-27T09:16:22Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-27T09:30:24Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-27T10:08:21Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-27T11:15:27Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-27T12:12:54Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-27T12:13:25Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-09-27T12:36:01Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-27T13:31:34Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-09-27T13:39:36Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-27T13:57:55Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-27T14:33:47Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-09-27T16:09:53Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-09-27T16:53:34Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-27T17:11:26Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-27T17:20:44Z ddp joined #ccl 2017-09-27T17:24:06Z ddp quit (Client Quit) 2017-09-27T17:24:24Z ddp joined #ccl 2017-09-27T17:29:06Z ddp quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-09-27T18:06:36Z edgar-rft joined #ccl 2017-09-27T18:52:24Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-09-27T19:22:53Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-27T19:28:00Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-27T19:33:39Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-27T19:39:09Z eschatologist joined #ccl 2017-09-27T20:48:39Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-27T21:27:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-09-27T21:41:55Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-09-27T22:41:06Z milanj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-27T22:41:41Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-27T22:47:07Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-27T22:51:06Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-27T23:05:45Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-09-28T02:06:39Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-09-28T02:25:26Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-09-28T02:40:02Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-28T03:14:34Z Intensity quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-09-28T03:41:12Z Intensity joined #ccl 2017-09-28T04:00:10Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-28T04:13:26Z fe[nl]ix quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-28T04:13:46Z Blkt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-28T04:14:36Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-28T04:18:36Z Blkt joined #ccl 2017-09-28T04:18:45Z fe[nl]ix joined #ccl 2017-09-28T08:07:25Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-09-28T08:10:25Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-09-28T08:16:45Z adlai joined #ccl 2017-09-28T10:09:08Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-28T10:20:12Z adlai joined #ccl 2017-09-28T11:01:37Z BitPuffin|osx joined #ccl 2017-09-28T11:14:15Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-28T12:42:05Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-28T12:45:23Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-09-28T12:56:48Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-28T13:07:30Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-09-28T13:26:59Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-28T13:35:50Z BitPuffin|osx joined #ccl 2017-09-28T13:57:03Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-28T13:57:32Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-28T14:03:46Z adlai: any way to kill a nonresponsive process? 2017-09-28T14:04:04Z adlai: (just the one thread, without losing the entire image) 2017-09-28T14:09:15Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-28T14:22:38Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-09-28T14:28:18Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-09-28T15:23:03Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-28T16:35:15Z edgar-rft joined #ccl 2017-09-28T18:59:37Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-28T20:04:18Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-09-28T20:15:58Z judas joined #ccl 2017-09-28T20:16:21Z judas is now known as Guest26102 2017-09-28T20:16:54Z Guest26102 quit (Client Quit) 2017-09-28T20:34:25Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-09-28T20:43:35Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-28T21:43:23Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-28T21:59:05Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-28T21:59:34Z jdz joined #ccl 2017-09-28T22:18:15Z xrme: adlai: have you tried process-kill ? 2017-09-28T22:19:04Z adlai: xrme: yeah 2017-09-28T22:23:24Z xrme: how about (ccl::process-initial-form-exited bad-process :kill) 2017-09-28T22:25:38Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-28T22:26:53Z adlai: well, i already killed it in anger, but i'll report back next time the similar situation resurfaces (seems to happen every few months) 2017-09-28T22:27:35Z adlai: (might arise from some race condition in chanl) 2017-09-28T23:46:15Z xrme: You probably know this, but process-kill will try to run unwind-protect forms, so if there's something in there that gets wedged, your process won't ever die. There's a macro called with-interrupts-enabled that you can use if you want unwind-protect forms to be interruptible. 2017-09-28T23:47:08Z xrme: well, process-kill doesn't actually run the unwind-protect forms, of course... 2017-09-28T23:54:29Z adlai: i'll have a look, that could be the issue 2017-09-28T23:54:36Z adlai: thank you for pointing it out 2017-09-29T00:16:52Z eschatologist quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in) 2017-09-29T00:17:44Z eschatologist joined #ccl 2017-09-29T01:07:09Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-09-29T01:41:36Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-29T02:33:43Z ddp joined #ccl 2017-09-29T02:33:51Z ddp quit (Client Quit) 2017-09-29T03:11:33Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-09-29T03:12:39Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-09-29T03:28:49Z adlai joined #ccl 2017-09-29T07:28:06Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-09-29T08:13:06Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-29T08:20:57Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-29T08:24:39Z hhdave joined #ccl 2017-09-29T09:42:24Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-29T09:45:05Z kini joined #ccl 2017-09-29T10:10:16Z milanj joined #ccl 2017-09-29T11:17:39Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-29T13:02:13Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-09-29T13:34:57Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-29T14:26:56Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-09-29T14:50:52Z rumbler3_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-29T14:59:07Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-29T15:04:21Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-29T15:50:19Z _rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-29T15:54:09Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-29T17:06:57Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-09-29T17:32:18Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-09-29T18:52:16Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-09-29T19:14:00Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-29T20:05:08Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-29T20:18:14Z milanj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-09-29T20:51:53Z sabetts joined #ccl 2017-09-29T20:58:20Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-09-29T21:38:27Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-09-29T22:20:36Z sjl joined #ccl 2017-09-29T23:23:45Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-09-29T23:45:12Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-09-30T00:09:20Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-30T00:40:05Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-09-30T01:32:53Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-09-30T01:37:49Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-30T02:56:06Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-09-30T03:51:03Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-30T04:06:15Z _rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-30T04:48:19Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-30T05:20:23Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-30T06:24:59Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-30T08:11:12Z sabetts quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2017-09-30T10:57:39Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl 2017-09-30T13:10:05Z rumbler31 joined #ccl 2017-09-30T13:18:37Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-30T14:24:24Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-09-30T15:22:13Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-30T15:50:19Z emaczen joined #ccl 2017-09-30T15:51:22Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-30T15:51:25Z emaczen: which make outputs /usr/bin/make but running (ccl:run-program "/usr/bin/make" nil) outputs: make: error: unable to find utility "make", not a developer tool or in PATH 2017-09-30T16:14:12Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-30T18:57:19Z ddp joined #ccl 2017-09-30T19:49:02Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-09-30T20:20:46Z sjl_ joined #ccl 2017-09-30T20:22:26Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-09-30T21:00:02Z pierpa joined #ccl 2017-09-30T21:07:19Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2017-09-30T21:52:31Z pjb joined #ccl 2017-09-30T22:25:35Z eschatologist quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-09-30T22:26:05Z eschatologist joined #ccl 2017-09-30T22:27:44Z eschatologist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-09-30T22:30:01Z eschatologist joined #ccl 2017-09-30T22:38:52Z mrottenkolber joined #ccl