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2017-07-02T14:35:26Z mrottenkolber: Hey, so I am currently looking at enabling CCL’s USDT probes on Linux (via SystemTap), it works (yay). Doing that I ran into an issue with the Makefile I don’t understand: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/compare/master...eugeneia:dtrace#diff-31972b7ead13f092d3112e70a2b7ef94R87
2017-07-02T14:40:25Z mrottenkolber: eh... nevermind
2017-07-02T14:40:52Z mrottenkolber: you know when you type a question the answer will come to you 3 of 5 times.
2017-07-02T14:41:01Z mrottenkolber: The darwin Makefiles include a -I.
2017-07-02T14:44:17Z mrottenkolber: anyways, since I made some noise already might as well babble some more: I am interested in getting CCL play nicely with the perf tools on linux. One part is adding more probes to the CCL kernel, if you know any parts there where probes make most sense, let me know. Another thing I want to look is generating a perf map to be able to trace Lisp code (see https://lkml.org/lkml/2009/6/8/499). I haven’t looked into the
2017-07-02T14:44:17Z mrottenkolber: aict it boils down to recording function addresses in a file under /tmp.
2017-07-02T14:45:39Z mrottenkolber: general question: if your app crashes once a year because of a SIGABRT, what do you do? (likely a memory management bug in CCL itself, I guess)
2017-07-02T14:48:04Z mrottenkolber: specific theory: if I turn all DEBUG defines into USDT probes, that won’t affect performance much (i.e. in memory.c). Agree/Disagree? I could then trace my running app (for a year) and see what happened before the SIGABRT
2017-07-02T14:49:52Z mrottenkolber: distant dream: a way to emit USDT probes from lisp code could be nice, but tricky as you usually enable them via autogenerating a C header and then call a macro from that header.
2017-07-02T15:27:27Z mrottenkolber: rme: I want to iterate over all functions in the image, and access their name (if applicable), start address, and byte length in memory. Got any tips?
2017-07-02T15:32:02Z rme: mrottenkolber: ccl::%map-lfuns
2017-07-02T15:35:11Z rme: (uvsize (function-to-function-vector #'cons)) will tell you the size of the function in machine words
2017-07-02T15:36:24Z rme: A while ago we tried to get perf working using an address map, but we ran into trouble because the tools made some assumptions about what sort of mapped memory aresa executable functions could be in.
2017-07-02T15:36:43Z rme: This was probably a year or two ago.
2017-07-02T15:36:54Z mrottenkolber: hmm
2017-07-02T15:37:26Z mrottenkolber: Was this also using the /tmp/perf-$PID.map mechanism?
2017-07-02T15:37:33Z rme: yes, it was.
2017-07-02T15:37:45Z rme: I just found some old mail about this.  Let me forward it to you.
2017-07-02T15:37:59Z mrottenkolber: Since that is advertised for JITs I figured it should work for CCL
2017-07-02T15:39:23Z rme: Yes, that seems like a reasonable thing to conclude.
2017-07-02T15:41:17Z mrottenkolber: Fun story: yesterday I read about USDT probes and thought, let’s learn about that by adding probes to the CCL kernel. So I find gc-common.c and look for the place where GC start could be instrumented and... of course the probes are already there :D
2017-07-02T15:41:44Z mrottenkolber: I actually managed to trace them on Linux so that’s cool
2017-07-02T15:42:07Z rme: The whole map file idea seems like it would be ideal.  But if the code in question was in a memory-mapped file, the perf tools were expecting that file to be an ELF binary.  CCL's heap image file in not an ELF-format file, and tricks we used in the past to make it look like one had stopped working.
2017-07-02T15:42:22Z rme: Ha.  I had the same USDT idea myself. :-)
2017-07-02T15:43:56Z mrottenkolber: Right so the issue is that our “JIT” serializes the functions to a file when we dump image, and perf doesn’t expect JITs to do that...
2017-07-02T15:44:05Z mrottenkolber: meh
2017-07-02T15:47:17Z mrottenkolber: I am still somewhat confused about the linux instrumentation landscape, i.e. there is perf and there is systemtap, the latter implements at least parts of the dtrace APIs, they do similar things but are not the same? If I make stuff work for perf, does systemtap also benefit from it? Vice-versa? I bet its simpler on i.e. SmartOS where you have one thing to check out: dtrace
2017-07-02T15:49:26Z rme: I wish I knew myself.  The Linux performance testing landscape has undergone a lot of development lately.  Brendan Gregg wrote a big book on DTrace.  He's now at Netflix, and he speaks and writes frequently on Linux performance analysis.
2017-07-02T15:49:40Z rme: http://www.brendangregg.com might be worth a look
2017-07-02T15:51:39Z rme: I have to go.  See you later!
2017-07-02T15:53:46Z mrottenkolber: Thanks for the help! PS: What is a “pure” function in CCL terminology? Or is it indeed in he function sense, i.e. no side effects?
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2017-07-02T16:58:55Z jackdaniel: referentially transparent I guess
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2017-07-02T17:53:31Z mrottenkolber: rme: seems like gary did almost all the work for me already, kudos! Regarding “the function that does this can't itself be in the readonly area when it runs”, that means I have to COMPILE it after loading the heap image?
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2017-07-02T22:01:48Z mrottenkolber: I found this blog a very helpful resource regarding USDT probes and BCC: http://blogs.microsoft.co.il/sasha/tag/tracing/
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2017-07-02T22:41:08Z mrottenkolber: jackdaniel: no it had to do with purify/impurify, i.e. functions in the :readonly area are “pure” (AFAIU)
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2017-07-03T13:35:11Z mrottenkolber: It works! :-) http://mr.gy/tmp/ring-bench.svg
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2017-07-05T12:06:56Z mrottenkolber: On x86_64, what does %rbp exactly point to? I am trying to find out how to get the name of the function executing out of a core dump, i.e. follow %rbp to the function object, extract its name out of there.
2017-07-05T12:07:14Z mrottenkolber:  I already know how to get the name out of the function object thanks to https://ccl.clozure.com/blog/?p=53
2017-07-05T12:08:32Z mrottenkolber: Just leaves getting to the function object from the frame pointer
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2017-07-05T12:25:19Z mrottenkolber: eh silly question
2017-07-05T12:26:00Z mrottenkolber: of course, %rbp (the frame pointer), is a pointer to the previous frame poiter
2017-07-05T12:41:58Z mrottenkolber: %cfp-lfun is the recipe
2017-07-05T12:45:16Z mrottenkolber: actually that yields the parent function, huh
2017-07-05T13:09:37Z mrottenkolber: %return-address-function is where the money is at
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2017-07-05T13:24:49Z mrottenkolber: if I understand correctly  a return address is a special value, i.e. not any possible value of the instruction pointer?
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2017-07-05T14:43:35Z rme: on x86, a return address is "tagged".  That is, the call instruction is aligned in such a way that the return address that is automatically pushed onto the stack has a particular tag value.
2017-07-05T14:44:16Z rme: there's some special-casing that goes on sometimes where the return address is compared to ret1valn
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2017-07-05T20:00:18Z mrottenkolber: rme: did I get that right? https://gist.github.com/eugeneia/a13f4b4b106af56a566d97065739c2ee
2017-07-05T20:03:17Z mrottenkolber: I don’t really get the movslq
2017-07-05T20:04:04Z xrme: Did you model this after tra_function() in lisp-kerne/x86-utils.c?
2017-07-05T20:04:29Z mrottenkolber: ooooh I now I get it I looed up the wrong instruction
2017-07-05T20:04:56Z mrottenkolber: no this is from ccl/level-0/X86/x86-def.lisp
2017-07-05T20:05:13Z mrottenkolber: I am trying to understand it
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2017-07-05T20:06:33Z xrme: on x86-64, if you say (movl (@ something) (% imm0)), the upper 32-bits of imm0 (aka rax) will always be cleared.
2017-07-05T20:07:30Z xrme: the movslq makes the mov sign-extend.  (movslq means "move sign-extended long to quad").  But it sounds like you already figured that out.
2017-07-05T20:08:44Z mrottenkolber: is the argument order reversed? i.e. this writes to imm0 right?
2017-07-05T20:10:14Z xrme: yeah, we use the at&t style operand order in ccl. The destination operand is on the right.
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2017-07-05T20:10:45Z mrottenkolber is catching up on his assembler moves so this is all still new
2017-07-05T20:19:16Z xrme: We used the at&t order because that is what the system assemblers (namely gas) all used.  As I recall, at the time, gas didn't support Intel syntax at all.
2017-07-05T20:29:34Z mrottenkolber: Can you think of a way to find out the current function only by looking at the frame pointer, instruction pointer and heap? I.e. %cfp-lfun returns the parent function because its underlying mechanism only works on specially crafted return addresses and exception frames. That already gets me quite far already, but the innermost function would still be “unknown” to dtrace (using only this meachanism).
2017-07-05T20:31:29Z xrme: there's a register named %fn that nearly always contains the current function
2017-07-05T20:31:42Z mrottenkolber: oh
2017-07-05T20:31:46Z mrottenkolber: :D
2017-07-05T20:34:29Z mrottenkolber: what x86_64 register is that mapped to?
2017-07-05T20:34:57Z xrme: r13
2017-07-05T20:35:06Z xrme: I knew you would ask, so I looked it up.
2017-07-05T20:35:11Z mrottenkolber: haha
2017-07-05T20:36:04Z xrme: see compiler/X86/X8664/x8664-arch.lisp
2017-07-05T20:38:05Z mrottenkolber: sure its not r9?
2017-07-05T20:39:37Z mrottenkolber: and of course I have to ask what nearly always means? Sometimes it contains the function to be tail-called?
2017-07-05T20:52:27Z xrme: There is (or was) an interval during the function calling sequence where %fn wouldn't be right.  There might be other cases, but I don't remember at the moment.
2017-07-05T20:58:11Z xrme: r9 is temp1
2017-07-05T20:58:46Z xrme: there's an xfn name that maps to temp1 sometimes
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2017-07-05T21:33:51Z mrottenkolber: can I test if %fn is bogus by asserting its (function) tag? And is the second last constant in a function object always its name?
2017-07-05T21:38:29Z xrme: I would try to get away with assuming that %fn always contains some function when running lisp code.
2017-07-05T21:39:33Z xrme: You can always check its tag if you want to be super-careful.
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2017-07-05T23:50:14Z mrottenkolber: xrme: Good night, and thanks for the input! :-)
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2017-07-06T13:59:16Z mrottenkolber: rme: I am somewhat stuck at getting the symbol name from a symbol, so apparently a symbol with its last four bits masked off does not point to its underlying uvector?
2017-07-06T14:09:25Z mrottenkolber: instead there is %symptr->symvector which subtracts 1 from the symbols lowest byte, yielding the underlying uvector supposedly. But what I get at this way doesn’t look like a uvector...
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2017-07-06T14:38:52Z rme: On x8664, symbols have their own tag (x8664::tag-symbol, which is 6).  But they are laid out in memory just like a regular miscobj (i.e., a uvector).  x8664::tag-misc is 5.
2017-07-06T14:39:43Z rme: if you have a "symptr", depending on what you are doing, you might be able to use (symptr.pname s)
2017-07-06T14:42:12Z mrottenkolber: hmm the symbol I’m looking at in GDB appears to have a 0x2E tag, I should read up one more time on the tagging scheme(s)
2017-07-06T14:42:14Z rme: maybe looking in l0-symbol.lisp will be helpful
2017-07-06T14:42:47Z rme: there's the pointer, which will have a tag, and then the uvector header, which also has a subtag (in the low byte)
2017-07-06T14:43:15Z mrottenkolber: right actually, I’m looking at a pointer with tag 0xE
2017-07-06T14:46:06Z mrottenkolber: F would be a function, so E is the symbol pointer tag?
2017-07-06T14:46:33Z rme: so that's x8664::fulltag-symbol.  so, to mask/subtract off the tag bits and show the uvector elements, say something like  x/5g 0xdeadbeefe - 0xe
2017-07-06T14:46:47Z rme: I have to run.  I might be back on the channel in a bit.
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2017-07-10T03:47:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm having issues with the Objective-C bridge
2017-07-10T03:47:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I try to run the example in section 14.5.1 here: https://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter14.5.html#Defining-Objective-C-Classes
2017-07-10T03:48:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: I get an error "class_addIvar failed" (ccl HEAD, commit 1aa27a22)
2017-07-10T03:48:43Z fiddlerwoaroof:  
2017-07-10T03:52:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, maybe this has something to do with the fact that I'm not defining the class in the right thread...
2017-07-10T03:58:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: It seems to occur mostly when I define a class and then attempt to redefine it.
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2017-07-10T04:27:47Z rme: I think there are restrictions on re-definining Objective-C classes.
2017-07-10T04:29:13Z rme: I'd have to review the Objective-C runtime documentation, but I seem to recall that after a class is added to the runtime, it's not allowed to add/remove instance variables from it.
2017-07-10T04:30:57Z rme: Objective-C doesn't have update-instance-for-redefined-class, after all.
2017-07-10T04:31:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I haven't entirely been able to figure out when it happens: it definitely happens the second time I try to define a class with the same name
2017-07-10T04:31:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: even if I don't change the slots at all
2017-07-10T04:31:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, it also seems to happen the first time, in a sort of random way.
2017-07-10T04:32:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there any tutorial for writing cocoa apps around?
2017-07-10T04:33:13Z rme: In general, or with CCL?  There's https://github.com/Clozure/dpf that might possibly be helpful.
2017-07-10T04:33:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: With ccl
2017-07-10T04:37:17Z rme: The existing tutorial-ish stuff on trac.clozure.com/ccl has become rather out-of-date, so I hesitate to point you there.
2017-07-10T04:37:46Z rme: The UI situation certainly does need some attention.
2017-07-10T04:38:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I was hoping to revive mcclim's cocoa backend
2017-07-10T04:39:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I don't know either mcclim or cocoa well enough to do this yet...
2017-07-10T04:40:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is the code that's causing issues for me at the moment: https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM/blob/master/Backends/beagle/native/lisp-bezier-path.lisp
2017-07-10T04:41:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: the form at line 28 fails with "class_addIvar failed" and I haven't figured out why yet.
2017-07-10T04:44:00Z rme: Does (find-class 'beagle::lisp-bezier-path) returns non-nil before evaluating that?  I expect it must.
2017-07-10T04:46:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, I get an error "Class named LISP-BEZIER-PATH not found." for that find-class
2017-07-10T04:49:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, it does seem to be creating an objective-c class, though
2017-07-10T04:52:45Z rme: Note that Objective-C class names are in a single namespace, so the lisp package the Objective-C class is defined in doesn't really matter.  (ccl::lookup-objc-class "LispBezierPath") would show you if the Objective-C runtime already knows about that class.
2017-07-10T04:55:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I don't know what else would define this...
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2017-07-10T05:00:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting... if I load the class via slime it fails (maybe compiling + then loading a class counts as a redefinition)?
2017-07-10T05:01:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: If I use the "evaluate all" option from the ccl ide, it loads fine....
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2017-07-15T16:18:23Z billstclair: Is it a known thing that compiler/optimizers.lisp takes forever to compile in Windows 64-bit?
2017-07-15T16:18:35Z billstclair: I usually develop on Mac.
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2017-07-16T10:00:03Z billstclair: The problem was that I’m not accustomed to using the Git repository for CCL.
2017-07-16T10:00:16Z billstclair: I was trying to compile the trunk sources with a 1.11 binary.
2017-07-16T10:00:26Z billstclair: git branch 1.11 origin/1.11; git checkout 1.11
2017-07-16T10:00:33Z billstclair: Then the build worked fine.
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2017-07-17T18:11:13Z xrme: You can download free virtual machines from Microsoft for testing: https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/
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2017-07-22T23:08:50Z pjb: hi
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2017-07-23T00:45:15Z pjb: rme: I was wondering about the status of ffigen4.  I'm currently implementing a CoreMIDI layer with CFFI, because ffigen4 doesn't work on current systems.
2017-07-23T00:47:14Z pjb: From the sources, I've got the impression there's one module to generate the ccl ffi files, and the rest are very small patches to hook into gcc.  I guess similar patches could be made to hook into clang; but then apple doesn't distribute its version of clang, so we'd want to do it without patches, using apple's llvm libraries.
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2017-07-23T17:08:25Z billstclair: ffigen is convenient, but it’s CCL-specific. I use CFFI for most of my projects. I have not personally used its .h file groveller, but it appears to work, as some of the libraries I have used DO use it.
2017-07-23T17:32:04Z pjb: Well, I assume ffigen is better for Objective-C bridge stuff.  It's true that CoreStuff C API, cffi seems to be enough.
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2017-07-31T19:37:52Z phoe_: (require :cocoa-application) on macOS El Capitan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/352178
2017-07-31T19:38:51Z phoe_: I need help with this - I have no idea what exploded here.
2017-07-31T19:44:15Z phoe_: Actually, this works if I run this from terminal.
2017-07-31T19:44:28Z phoe_: But crashes if I do it from spacemacs, from example.
2017-07-31T19:44:37Z phoe_: I actually tried to load McCLIM's beagle backend and ran into this.
2017-07-31T19:48:40Z phoe_: Okay - I restarted my whole Lisp image and got it to run further. Which is still bad - right after ;Loading #P"ccl:cocoa-ide;fasls;xinspector.dx64fsl.newest"... CCL completely crashes.
2017-07-31T19:53:48Z phoe_: HAH! I know why it crashes!
2017-07-31T19:53:56Z phoe_: I encountered this bug before - and it was on Windows.
2017-07-31T19:55:07Z phoe_: There's an error in another thread and that thread wants to capture "Shared Terminal Input" or whatever it is.
2017-07-31T19:55:20Z phoe_: It succeeds - if CCL is run from terminal.
2017-07-31T19:55:35Z phoe_: If CCL is run from a graphical application like emacs or Windows Explorer - crash.
2017-07-31T20:02:20Z pjb: phoe_: interesting.
2017-07-31T20:02:45Z pjb: I get the same here.
2017-07-31T20:02:53Z phoe_: pjb: ah-ha!
2017-07-31T20:03:00Z phoe_: Time to file a bug report.
2017-07-31T20:03:03Z phoe_: ........tomorrow.
2017-07-31T20:03:42Z pjb: But in general, I do:  (require :cocoa)
2017-07-31T20:03:50Z pjb: and (require :build-application)
2017-07-31T20:05:16Z pjb: If you call (require :cocoa-application) without having called (require :cocoa) it seems to work, and compiles and saves the application /usr/local/src/ccl-1.11/Clozure CL64.app/
2017-07-31T20:05:44Z pjb: If you load libraries such as McCLIM, the backend will have loaded :cocoa already, so it will break.
2017-07-31T20:06:15Z phoe_: I see.
2017-07-31T20:06:59Z pjb: So you should do like I do, (require :cocoa) (ql:quickload …) (require :build-application) and (ccl::build-application …)
2017-07-31T20:07:13Z phoe_: Let me try.
2017-07-31T20:07:21Z pjb:  (require :cocoa-application) is to build and save a pristine Closure CL.app
2017-07-31T20:07:31Z phoe_: I see. Thanks.
2017-07-31T20:07:43Z phoe_: ...
2017-07-31T20:08:14Z phoe_: (require :cocoa) right after starting a quicklisped CCL is enough to crash it.
2017-07-31T20:08:32Z pjb: No good. Here it works.
2017-07-31T20:08:42Z pjb: Even in slime.
2017-07-31T20:08:58Z pjb: Do you have write access rights to the ccl directory?
2017-07-31T20:09:11Z pjb: You need them to compile stuff when (require :cocoa).
2017-07-31T20:09:30Z phoe_: I do.
2017-07-31T20:09:33Z phoe_: It's in /opt/ccl/
2017-07-31T20:09:36Z pjb: ok.
2017-07-31T20:09:42Z phoe_: and my user owns the ccl dir and everything inside.
2017-07-31T20:11:12Z pjb: What does (require :cocoa) say?
2017-07-31T20:11:45Z phoe_: It spits out a lot of compilation output, then it... seems to return the values.
2017-07-31T20:11:54Z phoe_: :COCOA ("IDE-BUNDLE" "OBJC-PACKAGE" ...)
2017-07-31T20:12:00Z phoe_: And right after that, it crashes.
2017-07-31T20:13:06Z phoe_: I need to run to sleep now. I will debug more from home later.
2017-07-31T20:14:26Z pjb: ok. Good night!
2017-07-31T20:15:39Z phoe_: I'm debugging from a Lenovo hackintosh but I don't think it matters much in this case since I have a vanilla kernel and Intel CPU/GPU.
2017-07-31T20:19:36Z pjb: Probably not.  Intel processor should do it.
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