00:00:42 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:03:32 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #ccl 00:10:04 ipmonger [~IPmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ccl 01:20:47 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.158.32.164] has quit [Quit: Bye] 01:34:12 -!- alms_ [~alms_@209-6-130-32.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: alms_] 01:34:42 alms_ [~alms_@209-6-130-32.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #ccl 02:16:41 -!- ipmonger [~IPmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 02:28:52 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has joined #ccl 03:22:03 -!- alms_ [~alms_@209-6-130-32.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: alms_] 03:22:35 alms_ [~alms_@209-6-130-32.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #ccl 04:00:07 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ccl 04:04:45 I'm trying to get NST (a testing framework) to work right under CCL. I'm running into trouble with *PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH*. 04:06:07 Every time anything happens at all, the *PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH* gets copied and so new SET-PPRINT-DISPATCH definitions end up using a new table that the REPL's dispatch table isn't a descendent of. 04:06:48 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 04:09:12 I don't see it in the TRAC. 04:10:54 Most notably, if I put a form into a buffer: (LIST *PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH*) and then move onto and away from the *PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH*, then SLIME keeps updating the mini buffer to show me the current value of the symbol and it keeps moving around in memory each time I come onto it. 04:12:16 consolers [revolution@59.92.66.20] has joined #ccl 04:41:39 -!- rme [rme@6D10F4DD.4CC8819B.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:41:39 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.190.179] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:02:33 -!- consolers [revolution@59.92.66.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:08:46 pjb` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-180-69.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ccl 06:12:21 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-122-197.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:42:17 rme [~rme@50.43.190.179] has joined #ccl 07:41:59 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.190.179] has quit [Quit: rme] 07:42:03 jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has joined #ccl 07:59:56 patrickwonders: I don't use SLIME (and may have the details wrong), but under some circumstances SLIME evaluates expressions in a newly created thread, and threads have their own bindings of printer control variables like *PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH*. 08:17:24 consolers [print@59.92.70.59] has joined #ccl 08:35:26 -!- consolers [print@59.92.70.59] has quit [] 10:11:46 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:45:36 -!- alms_ [~alms_@209-6-130-32.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: alms_] 12:22:00 alms_ [~alms_@209-6-130-32.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #ccl 12:39:15 rme [~rme@50.43.190.179] has joined #ccl 13:05:41 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #ccl 13:44:54 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.190.179] has quit [Quit: rme] 13:44:57 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:46:20 gbyers: Yes, I have the same problem though with asdf:load-system. 13:47:31 The test framework NST didn't load/compile under 1.8, but it does under 1.9. Its output just shows without the pprint functions. 13:49:53 rme [~rme@50.43.190.179] has joined #ccl 13:56:38 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:57:28 Actually, I managed to get ASDF load to use a dispatch table in the lineage of the REPL, but then by the time that I (load "") a file containing tests, the dispatch table is different. 14:28:26 sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #ccl 15:06:33 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #ccl 15:21:23 jimmy99 [~bonsai@c-69-251-139-157.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #ccl 15:39:56 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 15:56:30 -!- jimmy99 [~bonsai@c-69-251-139-157.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:12 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:34:10 sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #ccl 16:35:06 -!- sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:36:58 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 16:45:40 -!- sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:46:05 sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #ccl 17:14:38 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #ccl 17:44:24 jimmy [~bonsai@c-69-251-139-157.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #ccl 18:13:47 patrickwonders: ASDF:LOAD-ASD (among other things in ASDF, for all I know) does (WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX ). Two questions: 18:14:12 1) What effect does that have on the value of *PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH* ? 18:15:08 2) what does this have to do with CCL, aside from the fact that CCL distributes a version of ASDF that does this ? 18:17:45 (with-standard-io-syntax *print-pprint-dispatch*) gives me the same output every time, but that is different than the output of just *print-pprint-dispatch* and different from what shows up in the mini buffer when SLIME tries to show me the current value. 18:18:41 It's looking to me more like it is (LOAD ) that's using a new *print-pprint-dispatch* 18:19:47 Eh not actually I dunno I'll spend some more time on it after work tonight... 18:20:15 Note that asdf:load-asd also binds *print-pprint-dispatch* 18:21:26 -!- sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:21:54 NST calls SET-PPRINT-DISPATCH on a bunch of its structs. And, it defines macros which invoke SET-PPRINT-DISPATCH on newly formed structs. 18:22:47 And if *PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH* is bound around a call to LOAD which does this, all of that will be undone when the binding exits, won't it ? 18:23:15 I am now getting the ones defined during the (ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM :NST) now, but not the ones that happen during the evaluation of macros during (LOAD ".../myfile") 18:24:22 But, if I load a file that prints the *print-pprint-dispatch* value, I get the same answer on every load and it agrees with what my REPL has it bound to. 18:24:45 (even if I load it with slime-load-file) 18:25:08 I'm just not getting through to these kids ... 19:10:39 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 19:30:39 sellout- [~Adium@c-50-134-130-65.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #ccl 19:32:26 In direct answer to the two questions above gbyers, (WITH-STANDARD-IO_SYNTAX ) doesn't seem to me to copy or modify *PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH* either during or after. And, as for #2, NST works fine under SBCL & CLISP but not on CCL because of the *PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH* differences... 19:48:16 With the same version of ASDF ? 19:52:00 I think ASDF now intentionally blocks permanent modifications of *readtable*, *print-pprint-dispatch* etc... 19:53:25 Because that would be too useful, presumably. 19:54:27 no, because there are libraries that do that unconditionally and screw up other libraries 19:57:15 Oh, I see. And code that tries to do it intentionally is just S.O.L. ? Sorry to sound hostile here, but someone seems to be trying to say that CCL is magically modifying and/or not modifying a variable that it only references in its source in a few well-defined places. I am very, very skeptical of that and can't reproduce that. 20:00:26 I'm quite certain it's ASDF 20:00:32 So am I. 20:01:38 the current code binds *readtable*, *print-pprint-dispatch*, *print-readably* and *package* while reading a .asd file 20:05:32 Someone that I used to work with used to characterize attempts to limit functionality that can be abused in ways that prevent it from being used productively by saying "children shouldn't play with sharp objects", only the way she said it made one sheepish about considering such a limitation. 20:14:49 I thought my ASDF would be coming from Quicklisp in both cases, but in SBCL & CLisp (asdf:asdf-version) shows 2.26 while in CCL it shows 2.32. That does seem a more likely culprit. 20:15:31 patrickwonders: I think ASDF is only loaded via QL if its newer than the one that would be loaded otherwise. 20:15:33 gbyers: I prefer "don't touch thing you don't own" 20:20:47 I prefer "If I understand the consequences of modifying a special variable that the language allows me to modify in code I load/compile, tools that are supposed to 'help' me compile/load that code shouldn't prevent me from doing so" 20:23:11 the problem is that quite a few people don't understand that and used to modify the readtable willy-nilly 20:25:43 I believe that most people don't understand what (DECLAIM (OPTIMIZE ...)) does; I've been reluctant to change CCL's handling of it because at some level I still believe that people who DO understand that shouldn't be penalized. It's clearly been a losing battle. 20:52:35 It's a losing battle because the people who get punished are not the people who don't understand, it's users of libraries trying to get something else done. But I think a funner approach (rather than having asdf get pre-emptively over-protective) would be for quicklisp to keep track of the known bugs in each library that can be worked around by binding stuff, and arrange to do that just for the buggy library 20:58:10 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-50-134-130-65.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:00:31 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 21:07:15 sellout- [~Adium@c-50-134-130-65.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #ccl 21:20:48 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:25:27 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.140.54] has joined #ccl 21:27:20 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #ccl 21:49:43 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #ccl 22:09:17 gz-: perhaps having a :bindings entry in the defsystem, and providing a default one when it's not present? 22:09:51 The default one being customizable by the power-user? 22:20:04 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-50-134-130-65.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:53:54 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-177-66-41.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:57:10 -!- alms_ [~alms_@209-6-130-32.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: alms_] 22:57:29 After getting ASDF out of the picture, it looks to me now like NST just isn't setting *print-pretty* true in some case. It looks like NST set it true at one point, but I'm not sure if that's still in scope at the point that's giving me problems. 22:57:45 alms_ [~alms_@209-6-130-32.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #ccl 22:57:57 My debugging got thrown way off track by SLIME copying the dispatch table every time I went near it. 22:58:27 Indeed, SBCL defaults to *print-pretty* as T whereas CCL defaults *print-pretty* to NIL. 22:59:58 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 23:13:01 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #ccl 23:15:35 |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-177-66-41.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #ccl 23:19:02 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ccl 23:23:40 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders]