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2019-01-01T15:17:00Z foof`: happy new year!
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2019-01-01T15:25:34Z pjb: foof`: good luck!
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2019-01-01T15:28:09Z amz3: happy new year all
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2019-01-01T19:10:35Z haziz: What is wron with:
2019-01-01T19:10:42Z haziz: (define atom?
2019-01-01T19:10:42Z haziz:   (lambda (atm)
2019-01-01T19:10:42Z haziz:     (and (not (pair? atm)) (not (null? atm)))))
2019-01-01T19:10:42Z haziz: (define firsts
2019-01-01T19:10:42Z haziz:   (lambda (lat)
2019-01-01T19:10:43Z haziz:     (cond
2019-01-01T19:10:43Z haziz:       ((null? lat) '())
2019-01-01T19:10:44Z haziz:       ((atom? (caar lat)) (cons (caar lat) (firsts (cdr lat) '())))
2019-01-01T19:10:44Z haziz:       (else
2019-01-01T19:10:45Z haziz:        (firsts (cdr lat))))))
2019-01-01T19:11:09Z wasamasa: you not using a pastebin
2019-01-01T19:11:19Z rain1: (firsts (cdr lat) '())  may be the biggest problem with it
2019-01-01T19:11:28Z rain1: the function takes 1 arg but you gave it 2 here
2019-01-01T19:11:47Z haziz: As the solution for "firsts" from the Little schemer?
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2019-01-01T19:12:31Z haziz: I don't think it worked without the empty list, will try again.
2019-01-01T19:13:17Z haziz: BTW what is a paste bin?
2019-01-01T19:13:40Z wasamasa: a website that lets you upload text and share a link to that uploaded text
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2019-01-01T19:29:11Z haziz: Thanks. Not sure I have it fully right but my newer iteration works in (some) scenarios.
2019-01-01T19:31:41Z rain1: when does it go wrong
2019-01-01T19:32:11Z haziz: This is my new iteration:
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2019-01-01T19:32:16Z haziz: https://paste.debian.net/1058245
2019-01-01T19:36:00Z pjb: haziz: what's wrong with it?
2019-01-01T19:36:31Z pjb: (firsts '(1 (2 3) 94 5 (6 8))) -> (2 6)
2019-01-01T19:39:30Z haziz: Not sure if this is what the authors intended, but pjb is correct. Will move on, rather than agonize over this. The book just does not dwell on it (or give a "final" solution) but just moves on to the next exercise.
2019-01-01T19:42:22Z pjb: haziz: what is the specification for firsts?  Usually the book gives it.
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2019-01-01T19:47:52Z haziz: I may have misunderstood, it maybe asking me to create a list from the CAR of each "sublist". I initially started coding it to include also atoms within the parent list. I think I misunderstood. Regardless this does work.
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2019-01-01T20:37:26Z haziz: Any idea when R7RS large, will make it's final grand entrance?
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2019-01-01T23:01:38Z Shambles_: Does anyone know why odd streams are expected to need to calculate one past the current value (this is the example used in the even streams writeup)?  Also, does anyone know why stream-scan is named as it is?  Is "scan" some standard term for moving-average-like calculations?
2019-01-01T23:02:41Z rain1: what are even and odd streams?
2019-01-01T23:03:25Z Riastradh: rain1: (delay (cons x y)) vs (cons x (delay y))
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2019-01-01T23:13:08Z Shambles_: Nobody knows?
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2019-01-01T23:31:18Z rain1: what's the even streams writeup?
2019-01-01T23:31:20Z Riastradh: Shambles_: How do you tell whether a stream is done?
2019-01-01T23:31:33Z Shambles_: Encountering stream null.
2019-01-01T23:32:10Z Shambles_: rain1: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-41/srfi-41.html
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2019-01-01T23:59:04Z Riastradh: Sorry, red herring, not paying attention.  The difference is whether you have to do any work up front in order to make a stream, whether or not you are going to use the first element immediately.  This figures into things like stream-filter, where you can't even return the stream until you've found the first element.
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2019-01-02T00:04:44Z jcowan: SRFI 41 is about even streams; the withdrawn SRFI 40 is about odd streams.  SRFI 127 is also about a kind of odd stream, one made from a list that may have a generator function in its tail (whereas in SRFI 41 all elements are promises).
2019-01-02T00:17:01Z Shambles_: It's hard for me to understand exactly what is going on, but as far as I can tell even streams are made of closures with a flag to tell if they've been evaluated yet (if so it stores the result instead of the closure in what amounts to the first field) and (normally) a closure in what amounts to its first field that does the calculation, and a closure in what amounts to its rest field that calculates the next node.
2019-01-02T00:17:41Z Shambles_: Everything seems to go to special effort to only build the code to run in the first field, not actually run it until you ask for it.
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2019-01-02T00:19:19Z Shambles_: I base this on what seems to happen with stream-reverse.  It's 'eager' in that it hangs on infinite streams, but it's 'lazy' in that it doesn't actually calculate /anything/.  It just rebuilds the stream in reverse (though I believe it does take up memory for every node then).  That and trying to understand what the code does despite the macro use.
2019-01-02T00:21:33Z Shambles_: I've made a toy implementation of streams that does not work this way, but does seem to work and avoid the off by one problem.  It's pretty much the same as odd streams only it treats the first 'iteration' specially.  'Generation' only occurs on later iterations.  That means I can't do the reverse trick though, because it could trigger errors avoidable in the even stream case.
2019-01-02T00:24:16Z Shambles_: So what I'm left wondering is if I've missed something that matters, if anyone else has done it this way, and if it's worth it to make errors harder to debug because they only go off 'late' only to make a few operations (like reversing a finite stream) work that I would probably never use with a stream (if you're going to generate the whole thing, why not just use a list?).
2019-01-02T00:24:27Z Riastradh: One basic idea of lazy evaluation is that you don't compute something until you're actually going to act on it.  The first thing you can `act on' with a stream is to test whether it is empty or not.
2019-01-02T00:24:41Z Riastradh: With even streams, the computation of the stream itself is lazy so that it doesn't even decide whether the stream is empty or not until you force it to.
2019-01-02T00:25:13Z Shambles_: In my toy implementation recognizing the empty stream works exactly like it does when you recognize the empty list.  It can be done immediately without getting any next nodes.
2019-01-02T00:25:14Z Riastradh: With odd streams that's not the case -- you have to do work up front that may not end up getting used, just to get a stream in the first place.
2019-01-02T00:25:18Z jcowan: Using a list is precisely the insight of SRFI 127
2019-01-02T00:26:15Z Riastradh: Now, this is only for the stream itself -- it's not about the elements of the stream; whether those are lazily evaluated, so that you don't force any element to be evaluated until you're going to act on it, is a separate question.
2019-01-02T00:26:55Z Shambles_: The answer to that question is a definite yes.  Even streams do not evaluate their elements until you stream-first them.
2019-01-02T00:27:35Z Riastradh: That's not quite what I meant -- with (delay (cons a d)), even stream-cdr will cause a to be evaluated, whether or not you're going to act on it.
2019-01-02T00:27:53Z Riastradh: With (delay (cons (delay a) d)), you don't evaluate a until you're actually going to act on it.
2019-01-02T00:28:10Z Shambles_: It took me a lot of time to figure out why, but it seems to be due to wanting to do things like the reverse operation where you would otherwise trigger errors.  You can now have reversed lists of "divisions by zero" without actually setting off the error, at least until you try to do anything useful with it after you've reversed it (that "anything useful" observation is why I feel unsure this is worthwhile).
2019-01-02T00:28:47Z Riastradh: Suppose you want to transform an eager computation like filter into a lazy one like stream-filter.
2019-01-02T00:29:31Z Riastradh: The natural transformation is to take all your constructors -- cons, nil -- and wrap them in delay; to take all your accessors -- pair?, null?, car, cdr -- and precompose them with force; and to take all your reductions and wrap them in lazy.
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2019-01-02T00:30:07Z Riastradh: (define (filter f l) (cond ((null? l) '()) ((f (car l)) (cons (car l) (filter f (cdr l)))) (else (filter f (cdr l]
2019-01-02T00:30:10Z Riastradh: becomes
2019-01-02T00:30:33Z Shambles_: That would not occur to me naturally.  Instead I'd think about how to 'delay' the 'next node'.  Which is exactly how odd streams work, or at least as far as I can tell.
2019-01-02T00:30:52Z Riastradh: (define (filter f l) (lazy (cond ((null? (force l)) (delay '())) ((f (car (force l))) (delay (cons (car (force l)) (filter f (cdr (force l)))))) (else (filter f (cdr (force l]
2019-01-02T00:31:03Z Riastradh: This is the natural transformation for _any_ lazy computation.
2019-01-02T00:31:08Z Riastradh: It's not just about streams.
2019-01-02T00:32:26Z Shambles_: I'm not sure how to deem something the correct natural transformation.  I suppose you would be right if you decided to solve your problem with pervasive lazy evaluation (and then you have two problems).  I would have just thought about delaying the part that was causing me problems (the 'problem' being that the next node doesn't actually exist yet).
2019-01-02T00:33:26Z Riastradh: The transformation I described applies to whichever parts of your computation you want to make lazy.
2019-01-02T00:33:57Z Riastradh: If you apply that transformation to the list _structure_, you get even streams.
2019-01-02T00:34:35Z Riastradh: You could independently apply it to the list _contents_; then you always know how long your lists are eagerly, but you don't compute what's in them until you're about to act on them.
2019-01-02T00:34:40Z Shambles_: The reason I was looking at this was trying to determine the best way to implement streams in a situation where they are not available.  What I've got so far does not set off the division by 0 problem in the example, but it is also not a true even stream (the values are calculated as part of producing the cons cell).
2019-01-02T00:35:58Z Shambles_: It has the benefit of reporting errors as soon as possible (e.g. if you generate a stream that would divide by 0 as soon as it was read (i.e. the very first stream cons cell), it will go off immediately, not at some indefinite point where it is read).  I have not found anything bad about it, but it's entirely possible that I missed something.
2019-01-02T00:37:01Z Riastradh: What's your goal here?  Why are you using streams?
2019-01-02T00:38:10Z Shambles_: To be able to generate sequences, mostly, though it might eventually prove useful for other things like file I/O.  I'm not sure that part is practical, but it is definitely useful for generating sequences (usually based on existing sequences).
2019-01-02T00:39:07Z Shambles_: Say you have some strings representing lines.  You want line numbers.  Stream the lines through some operations to attach the line numbers.
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2019-01-02T00:40:31Z Shambles_: I don't tend to like conversations that take this bent though.  Usually someone's trying to find a way to tell you they don't like what you're doing, even if they don't yet know what you're doing.  This language has no streams implementation.  They're nice to have.  I'm trying to do a not terrible job of fixing the problem.
2019-01-02T00:42:52Z Shambles_: I need to understand the implications of solving the problem by using, effectively "odd streams where the first 'iteration' is handled specially to avoid off-by-one errors".  I do know that what I've done precludes safely reversing the stream even if it's finite.  I can't think of a reason that would ever be a good idea to do to a stream.  I could be wrong.
2019-01-02T00:43:34Z Riastradh: What is your special handling?
2019-01-02T00:45:42Z Shambles_: It tends to follow the same pattern with different details depending on the stream, but here's an explanation for unfold.  On the first iteration the generating function is never called, but it does pass the "this is the first iteration" flag flipped (as an argument, no mutation involved).  Later iterations will begin by calling the generator function that might more intuitively been done when recurring.
2019-01-02T00:46:57Z Shambles_: As for why this matters, if the next call would fail, it only fails when you try to actually get that node.
2019-01-02T00:46:59Z Riastradh: Can you show code?
2019-01-02T00:47:14Z Shambles_: It's not uploaded anywhere and it's not in Scheme.
2019-01-02T00:48:21Z Riastradh: https://paste.asie.pl?
2019-01-02T00:48:35Z Shambles_: If you insist.
2019-01-02T00:48:49Z Shambles_: I don't think this will add anything to what I said.
2019-01-02T00:50:23Z Shambles_: https://paste.asie.pl/nnNq
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2019-01-02T00:53:43Z Riastradh: Can you show an example of how to write, e.g., filter in terms of this?  Can you prove that if (stream-head (stream-tail (stream-map f s) n) m) works then so does (stream-head (stream-map f (stream-tail s n)) m)?  Special handling for the first element sounds almost certain to invite trouble and difficulty in writing theorems.
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2019-01-02T00:55:58Z Shambles_: I don't have any intentions of wandering into formal proof land.  I'm not sure what is meant by head and tail.  If you mean do first/car and rest/cdr work, yes, they do (and their code is wholly uninteresting).
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2019-01-02T00:56:32Z duncanm: hello hello!
2019-01-02T00:57:04Z Riastradh: (stream-head s n) is a stream of the first n elements of s; (stream-tail s n) is a stream of all but the first n elements.
2019-01-02T00:57:18Z duncanm: Riastradh: happy new year!
2019-01-02T00:57:23Z Riastradh: I guess these are called stream-take and stream-drop in SRFI 41.
2019-01-02T00:57:33Z Riastradh: duncanm: Incrementation of a number!  Woo!
2019-01-02T00:58:03Z duncanm: yay!
2019-01-02T00:58:27Z duncanm: Riastradh: i think you told me once what the interrupts stuff does in MIT Scheme
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2019-01-02T01:00:28Z Shambles_: Assuming there are >= n elements head and tail should be possible to write.  Head would just first, then rest-first enough times to get the desired elements.  tail would just rest enough times to skip the desired elements.
2019-01-02T01:00:44Z duncanm: like this here: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/edwin/grpops.scm#n97
2019-01-02T01:02:04Z Riastradh: duncanm: Prevents ^C from causing internal data structures to get corrupted by a partial update.
2019-01-02T01:03:10Z duncanm: oh, that's what it is
2019-01-02T01:04:02Z duncanm: Riastradh: that's relevant only if edwin is running in a terminal, right?
2019-01-02T01:04:39Z Shambles_: Filter works by getting nodes until something satisfies the predicate or it encounters stream null (which it then passes along).  The usual looping and rest-firsting does the work.  Nothing interesting.  It has to retain its place in the stream by passing its stopping place to itself ('bind'ed) but that is not a problem.
2019-01-02T01:05:38Z Riastradh: duncanm: It is relevant if there is any mechanism of forcibly interrupting the thread that Edwin is running in, e.g. GC happens (as an interrupt) and decides there isn't enough space for comfort and aborts.
2019-01-02T01:06:20Z Riastradh: Shambles_: A prose description may sound all well and good but it doesn't run on a computer!  What sounds good in prose doesn't necessarily have lurking bugs.
2019-01-02T01:06:28Z duncanm: there's also a WITHOUT-INTERRUPTS form, is that the same thing?
2019-01-02T01:06:52Z Shambles_: Knuth's code has bugs, so that's not surprising.
2019-01-02T01:07:58Z duncanm: these cases I see in grpops.scm, they all set the mask to gc-ok, and then set it back at the end of the block
2019-01-02T01:08:12Z Riastradh: duncanm: Yes.
2019-01-02T01:08:27Z duncanm: so within the block, if a GC happens, it doesn't terminate, that's the semantics?
2019-01-02T01:08:44Z Riastradh: duncanm: In MIT Scheme, using without-interrupts here would have caused heap allocation of a closure; doing it this way does not.
2019-01-02T01:08:46Z duncanm: if an interrupt happens
2019-01-02T01:08:54Z duncanm: ahhh
2019-01-02T01:08:57Z Shambles_: If you see a problem with solving it by treating the first iteration specially as needed, please share.  It seems to be working for now.  I can understand there are some operations that do not work without delayed first fields, like reversing a stream that would contain invalid values.  I have not been able to determine if something important would break by not supporting it.
2019-01-02T01:09:08Z Riastradh: duncanm: OK, in this case, if a GC happens then it happens and it can still abort, but a ^C can't interrupt it.
2019-01-02T01:09:28Z Shambles_: Apparently for years Scheme implementations got by with odd streams so I'm guessing that whatever problems there were were not too onerous.
2019-01-02T01:09:54Z duncanm: Riastradh: i'm thinking of writing them into a (with-something form) using a macro
2019-01-02T01:10:10Z duncanm: and then for now, my lazy implementation can just do something and run the body
2019-01-02T01:10:23Z Riastradh: Shambles_: I dunno, you're the one proposing to do a wacky thing instead of the simple thing that everyone else has been doing for decades; if you want anyone to pay attention to your wacky thing the burden is on you to show it's interesting.
2019-01-02T01:10:29Z duncanm: if later on, it matters, then at least all the cases are marked by this form
2019-01-02T01:10:39Z Riastradh: duncanm: Why not without-interrupts as is?
2019-01-02T01:10:45Z duncanm: oh, i can do that too
2019-01-02T01:10:56Z Riastradh: duncanm: Only reason it was used here, I expect, is as a micro-optimization which maybe mattered in 1986 or whenever.
2019-01-02T01:11:03Z duncanm: yeah
2019-01-02T01:11:10Z Shambles_: I suspect my users only care if it works, not if it's interesting, wacky or otherwise.
2019-01-02T01:11:30Z duncanm: so the semantics of without-interrupts is the same as set to gc-ok, and then set it back?
2019-01-02T01:11:36Z duncanm: okay, if that's the case, that's easy
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2019-01-02T01:11:42Z Shambles_: And the simple thing is anything but simple in a language with no macros and no closures.
2019-01-02T01:11:47Z duncanm: i already have my lazy without-interrupts defined
2019-01-02T01:11:54Z duncanm: (define (without-interrupts thunk) (thunk))
2019-01-02T01:12:03Z Riastradh: duncanm: That's fine to get started, sure.
2019-01-02T01:12:07Z duncanm: cool
2019-01-02T01:12:17Z duncanm: Riastradh: do you think I should submit these little patches to MIT Scheme?
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2019-01-02T01:13:11Z duncanm: for now, i've been writing little shims to map MIT Scheme APIs into SRFI equivalents where I can find them
2019-01-02T01:13:32Z duncanm: for example, I found a few string APIs
2019-01-02T01:13:51Z duncanm: if you think cph would be interested, I could submit patches into MIT Scheme
2019-01-02T01:14:41Z Riastradh: Can't hurt.  String stuff is in flux right now, and I need to brush up a lot of the Edwin and IMAIL stuff in order for it to continue working.  Also some things have gotten really slow and will need some attention...
2019-01-02T01:15:00Z duncanm: okay, i subscribed to the mailing list the other day
2019-01-02T01:18:45Z duncanm: thanks Riastradh
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2019-01-02T02:26:07Z Riastradh: There we go, that made some things 10x faster in Edwin.
2019-01-02T02:26:26Z Riastradh: (only because they were made 10x slower recently by accident, though)
2019-01-02T02:35:38Z duncanm: oh wow
2019-01-02T02:35:43Z duncanm: what's the patch?
2019-01-02T02:36:04Z duncanm: Riastradh: here's another one? I noticed a place where it said
2019-01-02T02:36:16Z duncanm:  (system-pair-cons (ucode-type weak-cons)
2019-01-02T02:36:16Z duncanm:                           mark (group-marks group))
2019-01-02T02:36:28Z duncanm: I can replace that with (weak-cons mark (group-marks group)), right?
2019-01-02T02:36:45Z duncanm: oh, i see your commit
2019-01-02T02:39:51Z Riastradh: Yes.
2019-01-02T02:44:39Z duncanm: Riastradh: do you know how the edwin source tree gets loaded into different environments? does the order matter in how the files are loaded in edwin.ldr?
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2019-01-02T03:00:57Z duncanm: Riastradh: i'm trying to build mit-scheme on my Mac (Mojave)
2019-01-02T03:01:07Z duncanm: I got Xcode installed, and I have the autotools toolchain from Homebrew
2019-01-02T03:01:16Z duncanm: I ran ./Setup.sh and ./configure
2019-01-02T03:01:19Z duncanm: when I run make, I see
2019-01-02T03:01:45Z duncanm: ;  Generating SCode for file: "./bytevector.scm" => "./bytevector.bin"...
2019-01-02T03:01:45Z duncanm: ;MICROCODE-TYPE: Unknown name bytevector
2019-01-02T03:01:45Z duncanm: ;To continue, call RESTART with an option number:
2019-01-02T03:01:45Z duncanm: ; (RESTART 2) => Skip processing file /Users/duncan/git/mit-scheme/src/runtime/./bytevector.scm
2019-01-02T03:01:45Z duncanm: ; (RESTART 1) => Return to read-eval-print level 1.
2019-01-02T03:01:46Z duncanm: 2 error>
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2019-01-02T03:15:57Z Riastradh: duncanm: Start from the 10.1 distribution.
2019-01-02T03:16:51Z duncanm: and not with what's in Git?
2019-01-02T03:17:16Z Riastradh: You'll need 10.1 to build what's in Git.
2019-01-02T03:17:21Z duncanm: i see
2019-01-02T03:27:20Z jcowan: If you are doing this for use, as opposed to doing it to learn, I'd translate the SRFI 41 code into Go, or whatever that is.
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2019-01-02T09:20:14Z siraben: Say, anyone happen to see Zipheir?
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2019-01-02T10:43:35Z ecraven: Riastradh: any plans on blessing edwin with proper unicode support?
2019-01-02T10:43:44Z ecraven: (re string stuff in edwin and imail)
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2019-01-02T15:18:31Z Riastradh: ecraven: `plan' is a little too strong a word.
2019-01-02T15:19:59Z ecraven: Riastradh: maybe "intention"?
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2019-01-02T15:35:41Z siraben: Do people use edwin?
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2019-01-02T15:55:08Z edw: Nice email sig, jcowan.
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2019-01-02T16:43:40Z jcowan: Thanks.  Which one?  (There are 264 of them at present)
2019-01-02T16:43:47Z jcowan: edw: ^^
2019-01-02T16:45:21Z aeth: siraben: I'm sure you'll find someone, but my impression from the Internet is that nearly everyone who uses a Lisp (with the possible exception of Racket, which ships with its own editor, and Clojure, which probably has more options) uses GNU Emacs, with a minority using vim (which is a reversal of what's usual in Unix circles, where vim is more popular).
2019-01-02T16:46:05Z aeth: (And even people who prefer vim usually just use vim keys in Emacs for Lisps.)
2019-01-02T16:46:51Z jcowan the  `ex` troglodyte raises his hand
2019-01-02T16:47:09Z jcowan: I do go into vi-mode for paren bouncing, though
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2019-01-02T16:47:38Z aeth: jcowan: I'm disappointed that you don't use ed, the standard text editor. https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
2019-01-02T16:48:32Z jcowan: I'm willing to trade a little standardosity for a little convenience.
2019-01-02T16:50:18Z jcowan: If I ever get the R7RS-large monkey off my back, I have a design for a better `ex`, suitable for old farts (if any are left), blind people, and weirdos.
2019-01-02T16:50:34Z jcowan: perhaps command-line editing will become a hipster thing
2019-01-02T16:51:05Z edw: jcowan: The “Xmas is there to help us understand what a world that isn’t horrible is like” one. From your JSON Guile message.
2019-01-02T16:53:10Z jcowan: Ah, thanks.  I posted twice to that list. Yes, I love Northrop Frye and always have since I was a teenager
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2019-01-02T16:54:16Z aeth: jcowan: Command-line editing could work in a split screen, with the display on one side and the command history on the other.
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2019-01-02T16:54:40Z jcowan: Yes indeed.  I've actually run TECO in that mode on a vt100 terminal.
2019-01-02T16:55:03Z jcowan: (although the windows were vertically stacked, given 24 x 80 screens.
2019-01-02T16:55:20Z jcowan: I'll add that to the exx spec as a speculative idea
2019-01-02T16:55:55Z aeth: These days a left/right split would make more sense if edited fullscreen, but you'd probably want to support both in case someone is splitting the screen with something like tmux or a tiling window manager
2019-01-02T16:56:48Z jcowan: I am trying to keep the use of TUI to a minimum, though; so far I have only line starve (so that when you hit ENTER-ENTER-ENTER there aren't stupid blank lines between the text) and reverse video in certain highly specialized uses
2019-01-02T16:57:44Z jcowan: One definite decision is to bag terminfo and just use ANSI sequences.  If your terminal can't handle them, get a better terminal
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2019-01-02T18:47:04Z jcowan imagines some poor victim heaving a CRT terminal in the trash and buying a spiffy reconditioned VT525 from Ebay
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2019-01-02T20:12:45Z duncanm: siraben: are you interested in edwin?
2019-01-02T20:13:20Z edw: I am very interested in Edwin.
2019-01-02T20:15:15Z duncanm: heh, that's your name!
2019-01-02T20:15:45Z edw: I'm very sentimental about me. And things that remind me of me.
2019-01-02T20:19:17Z edw: That's a Bender Bending Rodríguez paraphrase, btw.
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2019-01-02T21:21:07Z edw: Hey folks, over the last week I built a new Emacs IDE for Gerbil, a really nice Scheme I've been working with. <https://github.com/thunknyc/emacs-treadmill>
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2019-01-02T22:03:19Z siraben: duncanm:  I'm intrigued by it
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2019-01-02T22:20:40Z edw: Name jokes aside, I love the idea of having an editor as deeply integrated with its underlying programming languages as Emacs where the programming language is Scheme. Elisp is cool until you start trying to do simple things like implement `fold`, and that's when you realize it's garbage. But there is nothing that exists today closer to a lisp machine than Emacs. Maybe Squeak? But I'm talking for the parentheses set.
2019-01-02T22:21:31Z rain1: hey
2019-01-02T22:21:37Z rain1: i am working on improving my little scheme interpreter
2019-01-02T22:21:55Z rain1: would like some more tests to run on it, any ideas?
2019-01-02T22:22:07Z rain1: im mostly just putting in rosettacode puzzles
2019-01-02T22:26:07Z siraben: rain1: a meta circular evaluator
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2019-01-02T22:26:30Z Jackie[m]1: If scheme can be used on Android
2019-01-02T22:27:01Z Jackie[m]1: Especially termux
2019-01-02T22:27:33Z rain1: hmm but what will i run in the evaluator
2019-01-02T22:28:34Z rain1: im googling for a metacircular eval
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2019-01-02T22:41:10Z jcowan: edw: see https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GuileEmacsBuild for instructions on building Guile Emacs, which supports both Elisp and Guile Scheme
2019-01-02T22:45:07Z edw: jcowan: Thanks. I was vaguely aware of that, but paid it little mind, assuming it would soon suffer from bitrot and become irrelevant, a monument to idealistic futility. Does it work with Emacs 26.1?
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2019-01-02T22:45:58Z jcowan: It's a separate branch of both Guile and Emacs.  Try it and see: nobody has reported back here in a looooooong time
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2019-01-02T22:49:28Z edw: jcowan: Between the impending Guile 3.0 and the usual random changes in Emacs, for sanity's sake I must assume that it's pushing up daisies. That's the problem with GSOC stuff: all too often it's just dumped into the void and abandoned.
2019-01-02T22:50:01Z edw: Is anyone running it right now? I need a reason to type `./configure`.
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2019-01-02T22:53:38Z jcowan: "If there are no philosophers [in the Yellow Pages], does that mean there can *never* be any philosophers?"  --a guy who tried to get himself listed under "Philosophers"
2019-01-02T22:54:05Z jcowan: It has to begin somewhere, with somebody.
2019-01-02T22:54:09Z duncanm: who else works on Guile other than wingo?
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2019-01-02T22:59:33Z edw: I mean, if the person who did the work isn't using it…
2019-01-02T23:00:01Z edw: (And you're talking to a philosopher trying to make a living in New York.)
2019-01-02T23:00:09Z jcowan: Ludovic Courtes for sure
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2019-01-02T23:01:11Z jcowan: My father was a philosopher among lawyers and a lawyer among philosophers
2019-01-02T23:02:08Z edw: I'm not enamored with new fangled stuff for its own sake, but this seems like a job for Docker. A continuous integration build of a Guile/Emacs Docker image would be trés bien.
2019-01-02T23:02:17Z rain1: a job for docker you say?
2019-01-02T23:03:57Z edw: jcowan: That's my situation to a t: my academic friends tell me to foreswear my craven commercial ways and join them. My startup buddies find my allusions to  Nietzshe et al. curious, perhaps frightening.
2019-01-02T23:04:26Z jcowan: My mother translated several books of Nietzsche, as it happens
2019-01-02T23:05:15Z edw: rain1: You a Docker aficionado? Aren't you dying to create an image to build this?!: <https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GuileEmacsBuild>
2019-01-02T23:06:02Z rain1: I do think someone should do it
2019-01-02T23:06:28Z edw: Come on, i typed three pieces of punctuation in a row. Make it happen!
2019-01-02T23:06:32Z ober: edw: Gerbil has one :P
2019-01-02T23:07:23Z ober: edw: actually I can send you mine that installs all of the ones from ecraven's tests. but it's gentoo based
2019-01-02T23:07:30Z edw: ober: I am vaguely aware. :P I was planning to ask you to see if you could write a recipe to launch the Gerbil image in such a way to make it easily connectable to Treadmill.
2019-01-02T23:07:43Z jcowan: Alternatively there is already a recipe for building guile-emacs on Guix
2019-01-02T23:08:27Z ober: edw: yeah... I do that now using just gxi though.
2019-01-02T23:08:40Z ober: easy enough to use it as a base with a custom command
2019-01-02T23:08:41Z edw: You do what, ober?
2019-01-02T23:09:05Z ober: edw: recipe for launching gerbil docker image
2019-01-02T23:09:33Z edw: What is Guix? Apt in Guile?
2019-01-02T23:10:09Z ober: e.g. `docker run -e GERBIL_PATH=/dd/.gerbil  -e PATH='/root/gerbil/bin:/usr/local/gambit/current/bin:/bin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin' -v $PWD:/dd -it gerbil/scheme:centos bash -c "cd /dd && ./build.ss static"` let's me build any package, and keep from exposing the runtime to the host system.
2019-01-02T23:13:07Z edw: ober: I find Docker interesting as a packaging mechanism, even as a Mac guy. What stops me from playing with it is not knowing how I could set up a Gerbil environment on my local filesystem and then make it work with the image, meaning making it work with gxi, gxc, and gxpkg. I think you might create more enthusiasm for the Docker image if you could document how to set up Docker-savvy aliases for those commands.
2019-01-02T23:17:32Z edw: I don't know how much you're interested in forwarding the cause -- the Gerbil cause, that is -- but a write up or a "screencast" (ugh) or something similar that shows how to develop or deploy a Gerbil app with Docker would be cool.
2019-01-02T23:19:39Z jcowan: unfortunately Gui doesn't support Mc OS
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2019-01-02T23:21:58Z jcowan: okay, just downloaded the docker image, running "guix pull" now
2019-01-02T23:22:01Z wasamasa: old mcapple had an OS...
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2019-01-02T23:22:24Z jcowan: takes real time, though
2019-01-02T23:23:59Z jcowan: you can install docker for mac and get a dockerhub account, and then it's https://hub.docker.com/r/bmpvieira/guix/
2019-01-02T23:24:04Z edw: This is my first visit to Paris where I haven't visited McDonald's. I could really go for a Royale avec Fromage right now.
2019-01-02T23:24:42Z edw: I have all the prerequisite Docker b.s.
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2019-01-02T23:46:25Z ober: edw: sure. thanks for the input
2019-01-02T23:47:24Z jcowan: okay, installing guile-emacs with guix package -i guile-emacs
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2019-01-02T23:56:47Z Riastradh: jcowan: Was it you or someone else asking me about restarts a few weeks ago?  I finally found a use for them today, but it's gonna be a little disappointing.
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2019-01-03T00:00:06Z jcowan: It was me
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2019-01-03T00:00:32Z jcowan: I need to walk home, but tell me about them anyhow, if you would.  I'll see it when/after I get there.
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2019-01-03T00:05:00Z pjb: edw: you can get Royale avec Fromage anywere else! Why go to Paris?
2019-01-03T00:06:35Z pjb: edw: don't be an idiot, go eat at  "13 Menthe Basilic"; 13, rue de Clichy; 75009 Paris; instead.
2019-01-03T00:06:52Z pjb: http://www.13menthebasilic.com
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2019-01-03T00:11:35Z Menche: huh, can not get http://gambitscheme.org to load
2019-01-03T00:12:16Z Menche: has a frame to http://dynamo.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit which redirects back to http://gambitscheme.org?
2019-01-03T00:13:02Z Menche: can not get a non-blank page
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2019-01-03T00:42:21Z duncanm: Riastradh: i'm interested in restarts too
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2019-01-03T00:54:15Z ober: Menche: it's down atm
2019-01-03T00:54:39Z ober: Menche: https://gitter.im/gambit/gambit
2019-01-03T01:11:15Z duncanm: Riastradh: I'm looking at this http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/edwin/calias.scm
2019-01-03T01:11:56Z duncanm: Riastradh: I don't see any usages of define-alias-key and undefine-alias-key, which means the calls to remap-alias-key is just returning what was passed in
2019-01-03T01:29:51Z jcowan: Riastradh: back
2019-01-03T01:30:38Z jcowan: What confused me before was that I didn't realize there are two ways to use restarters: ambient restarters that are pushed on the dynamic stack, and condition-associated restarters that are tied to a condition.
2019-01-03T01:31:06Z jcowan: The first kind don't interact with the signaler, so abort and retry are good examples
2019-01-03T01:31:28Z jcowan: The second approach is suitable for restarters that need the cooperation of the signaler.
2019-01-03T01:31:56Z jcowan: Of course, the signaler can add restarters to the stack just before signaling, and that basically has the same effect
2019-01-03T01:32:33Z jcowan: ABORT and (in some cases) RETRY make sense as ambient restarters, but NEW-VALUE and STORE-VALUE do not, because it's the signaler that needs to know what to do.
2019-01-03T01:33:01Z jcowan: An IGNORE restarter also shouldn't be used unless the signaler is prepared to cope with it.
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2019-01-03T01:42:01Z Riastradh: jcowan: I found a bug in LIAR's code generator where it incorrectly allowed a machine register (eax/rax) dedicated to a particular purpose at a particular time (returning an interpreter variable lookup) to be allocated for something use (a temporary for popping a dynamic link).
2019-01-03T01:42:15Z Riastradh: duncanm: Check the commit history!  No idea what it's about.
2019-01-03T01:44:29Z Riastradh: jcowan: However, it turns out that all the code paths I could find would not actually exercise this case.  Interpreter variable lookups happen when a variable is undefined, unassigned, a macro rather than a variable, &c., rather than returning a value.
2019-01-03T01:45:05Z Riastradh: Interpreter variable assignments also happen in the case where the variable appears in the operator position of procedure calls, for which little stubs are cached, making assignments much more expensive -- those are not error cases.  But assignments don't return values.
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2019-01-03T01:45:20Z Riastradh: However!  In error cases, you can restart!
2019-01-03T01:46:03Z Riastradh: So that's how I was able to exercise the miscompiled code and get a result like (1 2 3 . #[false 15 #xea9c18]) instead of the (1 2 3) that a test program was supposed to return.
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2019-01-03T01:48:07Z Riastradh: (define null #|unassigned|#) (define (map f l) (let loop ((l l)) (if (pair? l) (cons (f (car l)) (map f (cdr l))) null))) (bind-condition-handler (list condition-type:unassigned-variable) (lambda (condition) condition (use-value '())) (lambda () (map + '(1 2 3))))
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2019-01-03T01:51:12Z Riastradh: jcowan: Also, yes, what you said about restart(er)s is all correct.
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2019-01-03T02:12:33Z jcowan: Great.  I'm glad I understand it, and it is indeed an interesting use case
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2019-01-03T02:14:36Z Riastradh: I have a vague recollection that I actually found this bug a decade ago but didn't act on it because I wasn't clever enough to see how the code could be exercised.
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2019-01-03T02:38:46Z groovy: can someone help me with this
2019-01-03T02:38:47Z groovy: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/6518defa/
2019-01-03T02:44:01Z Riastradh: groovy: Your parentheses aren't balanced the way the indentation suggests they should be.
2019-01-03T02:44:22Z groovy: Riastradh: i'm sorry?
2019-01-03T02:44:24Z Riastradh: groovy: If you use Emacs, put the point at the beginning of `(define (groovy ...' and hit C-M-q to reindent it.
2019-01-03T02:44:32Z groovy: i use vim
2019-01-03T02:44:49Z Riastradh: 'Fraid I can't help with that!
2019-01-03T02:45:15Z groovy: Riastradh: what do you mean they aren't balanced? is that why i'm getting the #t error
2019-01-03T02:45:37Z groovy: in vim every ( has a ) when highlighted
2019-01-03T02:45:39Z Riastradh: The indentation suggests a different structure from what you have, and yes, it is related.
2019-01-03T02:46:02Z Riastradh: It's not that they're not _balanced_; it's that they're not in the places you seem to think they should be, based on the indentation you've chosen.
2019-01-03T02:46:15Z groovy: oh
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2019-01-03T02:46:57Z Riastradh: I don't know how to automatically reindent code in vim, but probably someone has taught it how to do that so you can see the disparity.
2019-01-03T02:48:25Z Riastradh: What it will reveal is that on line 4, you're missing a `)', which is why you have to enter one last `)' at the end.
2019-01-03T02:48:33Z Riastradh: Because that's missing, Scheme will treat
2019-01-03T02:48:38Z Riastradh: ((<= j k) (sum-square i j))
2019-01-03T02:48:43Z Riastradh: (else sum-square i j)
2019-01-03T02:48:59Z Riastradh: as the things to evaluate in the single branch of the cond.
2019-01-03T02:49:24Z Riastradh: If j <= k, then (<= j k) returns #t, and ((<= j k) (sum-square i j)) will try to apply #t as if it were a procedure, which it's not, leading to the error you saw.
2019-01-03T02:50:29Z groovy: this is confusing :<
2019-01-03T02:50:59Z Riastradh: Right -- that's why I suggest you get your editor to automatically indent for you, so that the parentheses and indentation serve as consistency checks for one another.
2019-01-03T02:51:59Z Riastradh: My editor (Emacs with paredit) even automatically inserts and deletes `(' and `)' only in balanced pairs, and reindents locally when the structure changes.
2019-01-03T02:53:22Z groovy: ok i will look at emacs thank you
2019-01-03T02:55:35Z Riastradh: You will probably also want `(else (sum-square i j))' instead of `(else sum-square i j)'; the latter simply returns j and discards the values of sum-square and i.
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2019-01-03T03:05:41Z groovy: Riastradh: thx
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2019-01-03T05:21:49Z edw: pjb: There are times when sometimes you just want to sit somewhere warm and order and pay for a snack without having an interaction with a person who you are inconveniencing and irritating by being nearly useless at their language. Besides, I'm here for over a month, and not every meal is a sacred experience. Chill.
2019-01-03T05:22:49Z edw: I eat plenty of toe-curling meals here.
2019-01-03T05:24:49Z siraben: groovy:  I think https://ptpb.pw/GRkD is what you want
2019-01-03T05:25:16Z siraben: Well the indentation depends on how you like your "else" clause
2019-01-03T06:06:21Z duncanm: Riastradh: in MIT Scheme, is there a convention to name an API xfoo instead of foo to mean something?
2019-01-03T06:06:55Z duncanm: Riastradh: like, I see xkey instead of key
2019-01-03T06:13:26Z Riastradh: Maybe `extended'?
2019-01-03T06:17:41Z duncanm: yeah, it looks like xkey means it could be a key or a list of keys
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2019-01-03T06:32:43Z edw: I've also seen it used to mean "existing" or "old", but not in MIT Scheme.
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2019-01-03T09:55:45Z ogamita: edw: furthermore, McDo is even more expensive than normal good French restaurants…
2019-01-03T09:56:10Z ogamita: edw: there are pleinty of cafés for warm and cosy places to stay.
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2019-01-03T11:16:01Z edw: ogamita: Thanks for the unsolicited advice. Of the hundred+ meals I've had in France, three have been in a McDonalds.
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2019-01-03T14:25:25Z Jackie[m]1: You got McDonald's on France?
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2019-01-03T14:35:35Z ogamita: Jackie[m]1: yes, incredibly enough, they have customers…
2019-01-03T14:36:10Z ogamita: Last time I ate at McDo, the fries tasted like cardboard.  It was more than ten years ago.
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2019-01-03T14:40:22Z Jackie[m]1: Wow fast food on France
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2019-01-03T14:55:10Z aeth: probably for the tourists, like the Starbucks in Italy
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2019-01-03T16:49:30Z edw: Jackie[m]1: See Pulp Fiction. The folks in McD's in France predominantly spoke French. There is a place for utilitarian, brutalist food. France's love affair with McD's is well documented.
2019-01-03T16:52:17Z edw: If you just want a little snack to hold you over and you don't feel like interacting with humans, an expresso and a cheeseburger (or the Royale avec fromage above) can tide on over. Also, when you're riding your motorcycle across a continent, a McD's can be an oasis. You can't always afford to be a smug pseudo-elitist.
2019-01-03T16:56:58Z Riastradh: edw is above smug pseudo-elitism.      *sniff*
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2019-01-03T16:59:27Z edw: Riastradh: Exactly. The true cosmopolitan does not shit on things just because they aren't to his or her tastes.
2019-01-03T17:00:00Z wasamasa: yet here we are, unable to recommend a scheme working well on windows
2019-01-03T17:00:15Z aeth: edw: Considering the environmental footprint of cattle, McDonald's is probably a net negative in the world and not just a matter of taste.
2019-01-03T17:00:43Z edw: aeth: So you're all about McD's salads?
2019-01-03T17:01:29Z duncanm: haha
2019-01-03T17:02:01Z ggole: Isn't that equally true of almost any restaurant?
2019-01-03T17:02:55Z aeth: edw: Just because they have other options, it doesn't mean that McDonald's does not promote a bad food source as its primary product.
2019-01-03T17:02:58Z edw: aeth: I would also posit that your typical visit to a McD's results in less consumption of beef than some upscale "quick service restaurants" like, I dunno, whatever people eat now that Chipottle is guaranteed to give you e coli.
2019-01-03T17:03:32Z aeth: edw: McDonald's also promotes soda with every meal, and the appropriate amount of soda consumption anyone should have is 0
2019-01-03T17:04:27Z aeth: Since McDonald's advertises pretty heavily, perhaps the most out of any restaurant, I'd say it's a pretty bad company.
2019-01-03T17:04:28Z edw: aeth: Gimmie a break. Are you an expert on McD's. I haven't had anything but coffee or water at McD's in the last dozen years.
2019-01-03T17:04:51Z edw waits for aeth to now complain about plastic water bottles
2019-01-03T17:06:39Z jcowan: You eat brutalist food, you break all your teeth in short order.
2019-01-03T17:06:44Z aeth: edw: When a company actively promotes things that are, on the whole, bad for society, that company should not get a free pass. As for plastic water bottles, that's not the topic we're discussing, and even if they are bad, by my standard people buying water bottles wouldn't be at fault: the companies promoting water bottles would be. After all, advertising creates demand, especially with food and drinks.
2019-01-03T17:06:51Z edw: jcowan: Milkshakes.
2019-01-03T17:06:58Z Riastradh: Concrete milkshakes?
2019-01-03T17:07:04Z jcowan: Eww.
2019-01-03T17:07:11Z Riastradh: mmmm slurp crunch ow
2019-01-03T17:07:20Z jcowan: Exactamundo
2019-01-03T17:07:24Z edw: aeth: So alcohol companies? Evil?
2019-01-03T17:07:51Z edw: Cigarettes? Drug dealers? Where does it end?
2019-01-03T17:07:59Z aeth: edw: Alcohol is fine. Advertising alcohol shouldn't be allowed, just like advertising tobacco isn't allowed in most contexts.
2019-01-03T17:08:26Z edw: If I were BDFL and could rid the world of Facebook or McD's, I would choose the former.
2019-01-03T17:08:27Z aeth: I cringe when I watch live sports and half the commercials are alcohol commercials.
2019-01-03T17:08:54Z aeth: edw: Facebook is merely one of many platforms by which McDonald's attempts to spread its memes (in the classic sense of "meme")
2019-01-03T17:09:19Z edw: aeth: Live sports? Panem et circenses.
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2019-01-03T17:10:23Z edw: aeth: No, Fb is an agar for growing human blinkeredness.
2019-01-03T17:10:57Z edw: It weaponizes what's worst about immutable human nature.
2019-01-03T17:11:15Z aeth: Facebook is a platform designed for advertisements. Companies for fast food, soft drinks, etc., are companies that pretty much only exist because of advertising. They're two sides of the same coin.
2019-01-03T17:11:50Z edw: I would rather have type 2 diabetes than Trump as president.
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2019-01-03T17:12:05Z aeth: And Trump is a president who's only there because of advertising. :-p
2019-01-03T17:12:27Z edw: Ergo McDonald's?
2019-01-03T17:12:57Z edw: It's not McD's that drove the digital programmatic adveritsingification of everything.
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2019-01-03T17:13:33Z aeth: But when I think of companies that basically exist because of advertising, I think of McDonald's and Coca-Cola.
2019-01-03T17:14:51Z edw: A Coke at McD's tastes quite good. Having one once in a while with a Quarter Pounder and some fries is not going kill the planet.
2019-01-03T17:15:27Z edw: As Paracelsus said, the poison's in the dose.
2019-01-03T17:15:33Z Riastradh: de gustibus non disputandum est -- only with gusto can taste be disputed
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2019-01-03T17:16:03Z edw rummages for his Bartlett's…
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2019-01-03T17:17:09Z Riastradh: death by a thousand paperclips of capital
2019-01-03T17:17:18Z aeth: edw: I have a soda about once a year or so, but it's becoming less frequent because the less I have it, the less I'm used to the taste (and I can feel it on my teeth, especially if I have several in a two week span). Also, the high fructose corn syrup versions of soft drinks in the US are imo worse tasting than the international versions of the same drinks (especially Pepsi).
2019-01-03T17:17:32Z aeth: I don't have McDonald's because I'm a vegetarian, though.
2019-01-03T17:18:19Z aeth: One of the advantages of being a vegetarian is that I can't be pressured by other people to eat trash food because almost all of the trash food (excluding most kinds of pizza) has meat (although it's probably only like 3% actual meat)
2019-01-03T17:18:39Z rain1: cool
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2019-01-03T17:19:04Z edw: aeth: Three percent meet. Uh-huh.
2019-01-03T17:19:28Z aeth: Exaggeration for effect. The quality of the meat isn't very good, though. Some of my vegetarian or vegan meat-substitutes taste more like meat. :-p
2019-01-03T17:19:53Z edw: It's all corn when you get down to it, I think we can agree, which I find ... is there a word for fascinatingly distressing?
2019-01-03T17:20:09Z aeth: Fake meat has gotten very good in the past 10 years. Sometimes too close, in which case I don't like those foods because I've lost the taste for meat.
2019-01-03T17:20:31Z edw loves seitan.
2019-01-03T17:20:33Z aeth: edw: I knew someone who has a corn allergy. Probably the worst thing you can have in the US
2019-01-03T17:20:59Z edw: aeth: Well, those of us who happen to have been born in the US, we deserve whatever we get.
2019-01-03T17:21:53Z edw: aeth: For all Xs where X is in the set of bad things.
2019-01-03T17:24:31Z aeth: If you're referring to the actions of the US government, the US people don't really have too much influence over what the government does. Especially foreign policy, where both parties essentially have identical views.
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2019-01-03T17:25:53Z edw: aeth: Opinions... everyone's got one.
2019-01-03T17:26:01Z aeth: I don't really talk about politics anymore, though, because that's a great way to start a flamewar on the Internet, especially post-2016.
2019-01-03T17:31:36Z aeth: edw: People don't have opinions anymore, they have absolute facts, and they believe that their political opponents should be in jail.
2019-01-03T17:31:40Z edw: IIRC it was equally possible to do it on the internet in 1991. But I kept my rantings out of comp.sys.mac.programmer and partook only in alt.atheism and sci.skeptic.
2019-01-03T17:32:25Z aeth: I believe that the main difference between now and in 1991 is what I just said, that it has become fairly mainstream among the politically active of both major parties in the US to call for their political opponents to be arrested. You see that with both opponents of Clinton and and opponents of Trump.
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2019-01-03T17:33:50Z drewc: Vegan here! Crazy lisper mostly organic vegan, been in Ketosis this entire moon-cycle. High fat high protein and < 20g net carbs a day.
2019-01-03T17:33:56Z edw: Phew, I was listening for the battering ram at my door from the Committee of Public Safety.
2019-01-03T17:34:01Z drewc: When I was Ovo-lacto vegetarian I used CL. Now that I've gone vegan, scheme all the way :P
2019-01-03T17:35:14Z aeth: drewc: If you're making fun of my diet, please note that I only brought up that I was a vegetarian so I could explain why I don't eat at McDonald's. The vegetarian options there are extremely limited, if there are even any.
2019-01-03T17:36:56Z drewc: d00d, i've been a veggie for over 23 years, and a vegan for 5. I'm totally serious.
2019-01-03T17:39:53Z edw: Fries. Apple pies. Shakes. Salads. Eggs. Coffee. Hash browns. Sundaes. Yogurt. Cookies. Apple slices. The entire Mc Cafe menu.
2019-01-03T17:40:25Z edw: If I were again a vegetarian I'd get an Egg McMuffin sans ham with an extra egg.
2019-01-03T17:40:51Z aeth: Those are pretty much all sides with the exception of the egg mcmuffin and maybe the salads.
2019-01-03T17:42:16Z edw: Not disagreeing. Not recommending that vegetarians or vegans visit their local McDonald's. I have no idea how you would've survive on my ride to Alaska this year; it's not like there are a lot of food options for picky eaters.
2019-01-03T17:42:41Z edw: I'm not even recommending meat eaters go to McD's. It's a tool in the toolbox.
2019-01-03T17:42:52Z aeth: Vegetarianism and especially veganism is a luxury of location in place and time. Definitely possible in most of the world in 2019, but not everywhere.
2019-01-03T17:42:53Z edw: Like bash.
2019-01-03T17:42:55Z pjb: edw: the point is that normal restaurants are cheapers and offer better food than McDo. There's no need to be smug pseudo elitist.
2019-01-03T17:43:05Z drewc: Have not eaten at McDonalds since '94, and when not in Keto, eat mostly local organic produce. I also program in scheme for a living, work for myself, live on a sailboat off a small island and get my internet with a really high strength WiFi antenna/ So, not at all "average", and I choose it that way, every moment. Limitations? Not exactly.
2019-01-03T17:44:22Z drewc: Having said that, I have heard wonderful things about their coffee, and if ever near one, I might try it :)
2019-01-03T17:44:24Z edw: pjb: But you're saying nothing about the salient features of McD's that led me to go a few time in the last two years.
2019-01-03T17:44:39Z aeth: Anyway, it's not an absolutist thing. If I was put into circumstances where I had to eat meat, I would. I am fortunate enough to not be in such circumstances. Similarly, I would encourage people to eat less meat, especially the meat with the most impact, which is cattle. Easier than giving it up entirely.
2019-01-03T17:45:35Z aeth: And even veganism doesn't produce 0 harm to animals, it just reduces it.
2019-01-03T17:46:40Z drewc: I do not care about harm to animals, per se. That has very little to do with my choices, save for helping one animal to survive a lot longer. Me.
2019-01-03T17:47:55Z aeth: Well, it's not just about animals. The higher in the trophic level you eat, the less efficient it is. Eating meat is like writing a web app in Electron when you have other options.
2019-01-03T17:48:03Z aeth: s/web app/"native" app/
2019-01-03T17:48:41Z edw: aeth: I applaud your attitude. Truly. I went to a vegan houseparty about ten years ago. I was no longer a vegetarian or vegan at that point, and some asshole accosted me five minutes after I got off my bicycle after a ten hour ride, whether I was "a flesh eater." I said, yeah, once in a while. And he rolled his eyes in smug derision.
2019-01-03T17:48:46Z edw: The next morning, as he was hanging with the girlfriend he brought with him (he was a polyamorist, of course) I asked him if he'd be willing to eat meat if I could get the entire planet to east 95% less meat. He said no. I told him what a fucking narcissist clown he was and didn't make eye contact with him until I left.
2019-01-03T17:49:16Z aeth: Inefficiency in production is generally expressed in the form of environmental harm. At a small scale, it's not really noticable, but when industrialized and globalized, it can have a major impact. Livestock, according to a quick check of [[Cattle]] on Wikipedia, are 18% of our greenhouse gas emissions
2019-01-03T17:50:06Z drewc: If we look at the evolutionary history of the Homo genus, along with the brain size expansion and our survival as a global species, eating meat, cooking food, and massive brain are linked like CAR and CDR.
2019-01-03T17:50:45Z aeth: edw: I mean, the vegans have a moral high ground, but vegan food isn't there yet in terms of affordability and taste ime. Most of the good vegetarian food is non-vegan because of eggs and cheese. Maybe half or 2/3 of my diet is vegan, but not all of it.
2019-01-03T17:50:49Z drewc: So, eitisim over food consumption is egotism to the NTH degree.
2019-01-03T17:51:01Z aeth: But individual choices aren't really going to make an impact as far as food goes, a broader cultural change will.
2019-01-03T17:51:21Z edw: aeth: I don't concede them the moral high ground. That's the problem: That they think they have the moral high ground.
2019-01-03T17:51:25Z pjb: nope, they don't have any moral high ground. They're dumb, and they have nothing to say about our ecosystem.  If they don't want to eat meat, they can go to India.
2019-01-03T17:51:53Z drewc: I prefer to refer to myself as a whole plant food eater, as vegans, though they spout truth as their propoganda, are harming society and helping to to not improve.
2019-01-03T17:52:09Z Riastradh: Maybe you folks can take this to ##foodeologies?
2019-01-03T17:52:33Z dTal: vegans definitely have the moral high ground
2019-01-03T17:52:46Z dTal: they might be annoying about it, but they definitely have it
2019-01-03T17:52:57Z edw: I am convinced that a hundred years from now that meat eating as it currently exists will seem like the practices of Japanese whale hunters: Anarchronistically gross. If global human civilization survives.
2019-01-03T17:53:16Z edw: Riastradh: Gladly.
2019-01-03T17:53:16Z pjb: dTal: you're wrong.
2019-01-03T17:53:35Z drewc: Moral high ground = egotism.
2019-01-03T17:53:42Z Riastradh: pjb: If you're gonna pick a fight, take it outside.
2019-01-03T17:53:45Z aeth: edw: If everyone was vegan, we would actually be better off because of basic physics, really, and what I said about eating various trophic levels and the inefficiencies that come from eating higher up on the trophic levels. I mean, dairy is still inefficiently processed solar energy that goes through several levels (Sun -> plant -> cow)
2019-01-03T17:53:47Z dTal: Noted. Also noted, your approach to discussion.
2019-01-03T17:53:52Z edw: Which is a distinct channel from #foodieology.
2019-01-03T17:54:20Z edw: aeth: I was agreeing w/ you there w/ my story. Yes: food chain, etc.
2019-01-03T17:54:25Z drewc: aeth: I'm a mammal, and the very first food I had was milk.
2019-01-03T17:54:32Z aeth: edw: But ethics needs to be practical, and I don't think veganism is practical in most places. Maybe if you're in like San Francisco where (1) the local culture is there so your options are large and (2) you're probably a high-paid software engineer because everyone else has been driven out of the city with rising costs so the costs don't matter.
2019-01-03T17:54:49Z edw: I'm trying to take Riastradh's advice here, folks...
2019-01-03T17:55:00Z pjb: There's always #lispcafe
2019-01-03T17:55:40Z edw: I need to go to dinner soon at a local restaurant that features an enormous mechanical polar bear. Strangely, not a McDonald's.
2019-01-03T17:56:18Z Riastradh: aeth: gastronomical didactics --> ##foodeologies
2019-01-03T17:58:10Z aeth: In the very long run, when technology is permitting, even veganism will seem strange, if we can get the energy we require directly from the Sun or fusion power rather than going through plants. Of course, judging vegans by the standards of the 24th century wouldn't be fair because they don't have 24th century technology.
2019-01-03T18:02:43Z Riastradh: aeth...
2019-01-03T18:03:47Z aeth: Yes, we're moving to #lispcafe
2019-01-03T18:03:57Z aeth: You would know if you were there.
2019-01-03T18:04:19Z aeth: I can only conclude that you hate coffee and are therefore an enemy of the people.
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2019-01-03T18:20:35Z jcowan: McD fries contain beef tallow: http://nowiknow.com/lyin-fries/
2019-01-03T18:21:51Z jcowan: I also hate coffee
2019-01-03T18:23:01Z aeth: I love coffee. But I drink my coffee without adding anything to it, so I'm much pickier than most people when it comes to coffee that I can actually drink.
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2019-01-03T19:45:45Z duncanm: la la la
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2019-01-03T23:12:48Z edw: jcowan: I have no illusions about what you mentioned; I simply think it’s useful to identify which is the instrumental good is and which is the ultimate good.
2019-01-03T23:13:10Z jcowan: Not sure what you mean.
2019-01-03T23:14:06Z edw: I acknowledge that X may be necessary for Y, so we need X, but what I really _want_ is Y.
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2019-01-04T04:54:15Z Riastradh: 6x performance improvement in promises, not bad.
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2019-01-04T07:41:53Z Jackie[m]1: Is Racket any good
2019-01-04T07:56:12Z siraben: Jackie:  by what metric?
2019-01-04T08:00:32Z Jackie[m]1: In general
2019-01-04T08:01:25Z Riastradh: I would rate it at approximately 13 1/2, in general.
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2019-01-04T10:57:05Z Jackie[m]1: Any matrix Schemers?
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2019-01-04T11:37:35Z rain1: is there a matrix room?
2019-01-04T11:39:06Z siraben: Jackie: me!
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2019-01-04T12:16:06Z ogamita: Yes, there's #matrix
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2019-01-04T12:59:35Z Jackie[m]1: Oh the bridge now has a flair
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2019-01-04T13:26:33Z edw: Riastradh: Obviously.
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2019-01-04T22:32:12Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/racket-peg/issues/67#issuecomment-451588135  I made a better solution to the bracket expansion problem using the PEG parser
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2019-01-05T01:15:08Z siraben: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/lojban-mode.el
2019-01-05T01:15:13Z siraben: Oops wrong room
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2019-01-05T10:31:40Z ecraven: coi ro do ;)
2019-01-05T10:31:49Z ecraven: also, not exactly wrong, look at jcowan ;)
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2019-01-05T11:09:33Z Jackie[m]: There should be a matrix version of Emacs room
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2019-01-05T11:30:26Z ecraven: Riastradh: you're pondering moving mit to a nan-tagging representation?
2019-01-05T11:33:41Z ecraven: is there any Scheme that uses nan-tagging? (apart from those compiling to js)
2019-01-05T11:33:59Z ecraven: hm. nan-boxing actually, not nan-tagging
2019-01-05T11:35:03Z ecraven: ls
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2019-01-05T15:32:45Z Riastradh: ecraven: Thought about it.  Would probably be another weekend's worth of work.
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2019-01-05T15:35:28Z siraben: doi la jcowan xu do tavla fo la lojban
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2019-01-05T16:54:38Z jcowan: doi siraben. mi'e djan. .i mi xlali se bangu la lojban.
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2019-01-05T20:40:12Z amz3: hello... again.
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2019-01-05T20:41:29Z rain1: hi!
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2019-01-05T20:50:51Z amz3: what do you think of the latest edition of reasoned schemer?
2019-01-05T20:51:06Z rain1: not seen it, what did they changed?
2019-01-05T20:51:45Z rain1: For this second edition, the authors have greatly simplified the programming language used in the book, as well as the implementation of the language. In addition to revising the text extensively, and simplifying and revising the “Laws” and “Commandments,” they have added explicit “Translation” rules to ease translation of Scheme functions into relations.
2019-01-05T20:52:07Z amz3: they changed the typography to get started and it much better now. The code snippets look much better.
2019-01-05T20:52:50Z amz3: this might be superficial but it's important to make it easy for people to actually type the code
2019-01-05T20:53:16Z amz3: which lead me to my second point, there is not full listing of the code in the book :(
2019-01-05T20:54:39Z amz3: last point, the book should follow some kind of versioning. I know there various versions of minikanren / microkanren but at the end of the day being able to lookup minikanren 2.1 is much easier than going throught the code to figure meh that is (only) microkanren
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2019-01-05T20:55:38Z amz3: last but no least, some should do an interactive version of the book
2019-01-05T20:55:48Z rain1: cool  I like minikanren
2019-01-05T20:55:56Z rain1: the book was great so if they improved it awesome
2019-01-05T20:56:00Z amz3: here is the code https://github.com/TheReasonedSchemer2ndEd/CodeFromTheReasonedSchemer2ndEd
2019-01-05T20:58:09Z amz3: I will ask the permission to do an interactive version of the book using chibi
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2019-01-05T21:04:11Z jcowan: amz3: Using the Emscripten build?
2019-01-05T21:04:14Z amz3: yes
2019-01-05T21:04:35Z amz3: I need no permission lol, it will be a surprise :)
2019-01-05T21:06:13Z rain1: I should try running minikanren in my scheme
2019-01-05T21:06:37Z rain1: I'll have to change the syntax-rules macros to defmacro though
2019-01-05T21:06:44Z rain1: because i don't have a proper macro system
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2019-01-05T21:10:06Z jcowan shudders
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2019-01-05T21:11:17Z jcowan: one of the array SRFIs uses  defmacros, I'm in process of converting it to er-macros
2019-01-05T21:11:28Z jcowan: hopefully trivial, but annoying
2019-01-05T21:13:11Z jcowan: I have too many irons in the fire
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2019-01-05T21:35:24Z amz3: I am in the very same situation, but less productive
2019-01-05T21:36:15Z rain1: whats a nice 1  file mk implementation?
2019-01-05T21:36:25Z rain1: i cant be bothered joining all the files together from this one I found..
2019-01-05T21:40:20Z amz3: well, that is the problem...
2019-01-05T21:40:38Z amz3: this is the most official release of the latest minikanren
2019-01-05T21:41:01Z amz3: you can use cat FILE1 FILE2 FILE3 > OUT
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2019-01-05T21:42:24Z amz3: you can use: $ cat FILE1 FILE2 FILE3 > OUT
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2019-01-05T22:59:22Z amz3: is it possible to make 'resume' or more precisly 'sexp_resume' return to chibi interpreter the string passed as argument?
2019-01-05T23:00:03Z amz3: actually, I want to know how to send things to the chibi interpreter
2019-01-05T23:04:55Z amz3: it is 'string-eval-script'
2019-01-05T23:05:02Z amz3: this program is awesome
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2019-01-06T02:14:37Z amz3: plop
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2019-01-06T04:03:32Z duncanm: jcowan: why er-macros? i thought only scheme48 uses ER macros
2019-01-06T04:04:58Z jcowan: MIT, Chicken, Scheme48/scsh, Sagittarius, Picrin, Chibi, Larceny (with different syntax).  All sc-macro systems do er-macros as well.
2019-01-06T04:05:23Z duncanm: sc-macro is only available in MIT Scheme?
2019-01-06T04:05:36Z duncanm: ahh, larceny has ER macros, right
2019-01-06T04:05:53Z duncanm: I've been learning to write syntax-case macros, i'm slowly getting the hang of it
2019-01-06T04:06:07Z jcowan: MIT, Chibi, and Picrin
2019-01-06T04:08:10Z jcowan: Larceny doesn't have sc-macros, Will Clinger told me, because he witnessed too many debates over their exact semantics to ever be sure he could get them consistently right.
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2019-01-06T04:22:25Z duncanm: hey Riastradh
2019-01-06T04:31:38Z Riastradh: Hi!
2019-01-06T04:31:40Z Riastradh: I'm about to evaporate.
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2019-01-06T06:54:57Z amz3: edw: tx for the json parser, very useful :]
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2019-01-06T07:56:58Z amz3: https://scheme-lang.com/cons/
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2019-01-06T07:57:23Z amz3: https://github.com/amirouche/scheme-lang/commit/15fbb9639fb7743d2a82b478bb3fb0f734cc2464
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2019-01-06T08:56:47Z edw: amz3: Oh, you're welcome. I'd forgotten about that. Glad you found it.
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2019-01-06T13:39:19Z amz3: hello people, I need your feedback on my little game: http://scheme-lang.com/cons/
2019-01-06T13:39:37Z amz3: does it work on your side? does it a lot of time to load?
2019-01-06T13:39:43Z amz3: is it readable?
2019-01-06T13:39:51Z amz3: did you find any bug?
2019-01-06T13:45:27Z wasamasa: lol, parsing json in scheme running in a browser
2019-01-06T13:47:24Z wasamasa: I've found a bug, yes, it tells me that 24 isn't the right answer for (* 2 3 4)
2019-01-06T13:47:40Z dTal: I was asked ";; What is (+ 41 1)" and I typed "(+ 41 1)" and got ";; Ok!"
2019-01-06T13:47:45Z wasamasa: probably because it's the last exercise
2019-01-06T13:47:46Z dTal: I'm not sure what I'm supposed to have learned...
2019-01-06T13:47:59Z wasamasa: wow, clever
2019-01-06T13:48:16Z wasamasa: but that doesn't allow me to pass (* 2 3 4) ;_;
2019-01-06T13:50:02Z dTal: Why not use BiwaScheme for something like this, instead of Chibi in WebAssembly?
2019-01-06T13:50:24Z dTal: I imagine it would be much faster
2019-01-06T13:50:38Z dTal: at least to load
2019-01-06T13:52:15Z wasamasa: I guess it manages to be far worse than chibi
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2019-01-06T13:59:36Z jcowan: This is Chibi/WASM as opposed to Chibi/JS?
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2019-01-06T14:02:43Z wasamasa: seems so
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2019-01-06T14:25:10Z amz3: wasamasa: I made some error when doing the math, the registrer good value is 18
2019-01-06T14:25:15Z amz3: I will fix it
2019-01-06T14:26:06Z amz3: yes there is also a bug when you hit the last question
2019-01-06T14:26:19Z amz3: jcowan: it use chibi/wasm
2019-01-06T14:27:22Z amz3: after the initial loading the program is smooth.
2019-01-06T14:28:03Z amz3: I tried previously with biwascheme, I posted on chibi an explanation of how it works, it will be published eventually
2019-01-06T14:28:20Z amz3: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/chibi-scheme
2019-01-06T14:28:49Z amz3: biwascheme is less good in terms of error reporting, also I was hitting the recursion depth limit on similar or simpler programs
2019-01-06T14:28:58Z amz3: also biwascheme doesn't have 'eval' afaik
2019-01-06T14:29:16Z amz3 is happy
2019-01-06T14:29:23Z siraben: doi la jcowan ku'i  ue do pu ciska lo xunre cukta
2019-01-06T14:32:04Z amz3: ??
2019-01-06T14:32:26Z siraben: that's lojban for you
2019-01-06T14:32:35Z amz3: what does it mean?
2019-01-06T14:33:00Z siraben: "jcowan: however, (surprise) you wrote the red book"
2019-01-06T14:33:17Z jcowan: .ie
2019-01-06T14:33:22Z siraben: the red book being https://mw.lojban.org/papri/the_Complete_Lojban_Language
2019-01-06T14:34:06Z jcowan: Actually complete only as to the grammar: it isn't a dictionary also.  Wordlists are available online, though.
2019-01-06T14:34:14Z jcowan: siraben: are you on #lojban?
2019-01-06T14:34:21Z siraben: jcowan:  yep
2019-01-06T14:34:41Z siraben: jcowan:  I noticed you are not?
2019-01-06T14:34:41Z jcowan: I haven't been there in a long time.
2019-01-06T14:34:53Z siraben: Any particular reasons why?
2019-01-06T14:35:18Z jcowan: I am only minimally involved with Lojban these days.  The Red Book is being revised and I am a small part of that.  Can't do it all.
2019-01-06T14:35:37Z siraben: How much of the book did you write?
2019-01-06T14:48:27Z wasamasa: amz3: tell me, why can't I type quotes into the repl
2019-01-06T14:49:11Z wasamasa: amz3: worse, doing so renders me unable to type anything else
2019-01-06T14:49:44Z wasamasa: amz3: double quotes that is
2019-01-06T14:51:41Z wasamasa: amz3: ah, it's because it throws an error in the console and kills the scheme system
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2019-01-06T15:06:24Z jcowan: What it says in the intro: all but specified chapters
2019-01-06T15:06:41Z jcowan gets down his hardcopy Red Book (whose cover is in fact a very nice deep red)
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2019-01-06T15:10:43Z jcowan: siraben: http://lojban.org/publications/cll/cll_v1.1_xhtml-chapter-chunks/chapter-about.html#credits
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2019-01-06T15:12:21Z amz3: wasamasa: tx for the bug report
2019-01-06T15:12:46Z wasamasa: my nefarious plan was to test whether the issue about accepting (+ 41 1) is exploitable
2019-01-06T15:12:52Z wasamasa: apparently not (yet)
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2019-01-06T15:18:21Z amz3: wasamasa: I found the issue, it's a bug in the json parser. I doesn't support quoted "
2019-01-06T15:18:30Z wasamasa: lol
2019-01-06T15:18:33Z amz3: s/quoted/escaped/
2019-01-06T15:18:50Z wasamasa: I still find it hilarious that you parse json in scheme running on top of JS that can parse JSON already
2019-01-06T15:19:16Z wasamasa: is there no JS interop?
2019-01-06T15:19:43Z wasamasa: or would it be useless here?
2019-01-06T15:32:11Z amz3: there JS interop, but you can only pass integer and strings
2019-01-06T15:32:19Z amz3: there *is* JS interop, but you can only pass integer and strings
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2019-01-06T15:48:51Z mejja: Riastradh: 👍 Yes please fix "consing a closure entails writing instruction memory" asap if you can 👍
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2019-01-06T16:09:57Z ecraven: Riastradh: I'd guess moving to nan-boxing would make immediate floats perform much better?
2019-01-06T16:10:07Z ecraven: (as all floats would then be immediate, right?)
2019-01-06T16:18:02Z Riastradh: Yes.
2019-01-06T16:20:41Z gwatt: Does it reduce performance in other areas?
2019-01-06T16:20:49Z Riastradh: With any luck, only marginally.
2019-01-06T16:21:07Z ecraven: it's just another tagging scheme, shouldn't have much influence compared to any other tagging scheme, right?
2019-01-06T16:21:22Z Riastradh: Also it reduces the available address space and the size of fixnums to _only_ (say) 46 bits.
2019-01-06T16:21:34Z Riastradh: So, if you have a petabyte of RAM, you might be sad that you can't use it all in one address space.
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2019-01-06T16:21:53Z Riastradh: (If you run MIT Scheme on a machine with a petabyte of RAM I would definitely be curious to hear about it!)
2019-01-06T16:22:14Z gwatt: free -m: 15448
2019-01-06T16:22:17Z gwatt: that's a no from me
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2019-01-06T16:23:40Z Riastradh: As for fixnums, well, 58 bits of fixnum (including sign) is pretty arbitrary anyway.  Maybe 48 bits would be nice so you can do 24x24 multiplies but cutting down from 6 to 4 tag bits requires a lot of work and is probably not worth it.
2019-01-06T16:24:17Z gwatt: So if you have large fixnums, performance will suffer in nan-boxing systems
2019-01-06T16:26:36Z ecraven: gwatt: well, that depends on what your alternative tagging format is
2019-01-06T16:26:48Z ecraven: gwatt: it will only suffer if your other scheme uses *fewer* bits to tag fixnums
2019-01-06T16:27:07Z ecraven: also, open-coding float ops is trivial, as nothing that isn't a float looks like a float any longer
2019-01-06T16:27:08Z gwatt: Chez for example uses 3 bits for fixnums
2019-01-06T16:27:46Z gwatt: uses 3 bits for everything, in fact, but sometimes that requires double dereferencing
2019-01-06T16:27:52Z ecraven: (expt 2 46) -> 70368744177664
2019-01-06T16:28:23Z ecraven: I'm no numerologist, but not sure which sort of programs would use numbers bigger than this but smaller than (expt 2 59) a lot
2019-01-06T16:30:50Z gwatt: fair enough
2019-01-06T16:31:48Z Riastradh: Float operations are already open-coded in MIT Scheme.
2019-01-06T16:32:39Z Riastradh: The cost is that storing them in variables requires allocating memory which costs more runs of the garbage collector.
2019-01-06T16:34:12Z ecraven: Riastradh: I mean you don't need any additional checks except for checking for NaN at the end
2019-01-06T16:38:59Z Riastradh: Actually you don't even need to do that.
2019-01-06T16:39:10Z Riastradh: IEEE 754 floating-point operations never return signalling NaN.
2019-01-06T16:42:15Z Riastradh: (Except for the three quiet-computational ones abs, copysign, and negate, but only if the input is signalling NaN too.)
2019-01-06T16:43:06Z ecraven: yes, I mean (+ x y) can just do a floating point add, then check whether the result is a NaN, if it is, then it needs to analyze what x and y actually are (if you want to focus on float performance)
2019-01-06T16:43:23Z ecraven: like doing fixnum operations and only spilling to bignums if that overflows
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2019-01-06T17:35:39Z ecraven: hm.. 70368744177664 cm is less than 0.5 AU, so for solar system dynamics approximations, you'd probably want the larger number
2019-01-06T17:36:16Z ecraven: 58 bits would give you 1926 AU, that might be enough for some systems
2019-01-06T17:36:48Z ecraven: but then, you might want to calculate astrodynamics in floats anyway, not in integers
2019-01-06T17:50:52Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/scheme_interpreter/commit/28158fe4f93e6e7936ea50ed512ee70f977ea0ff I have been improving my interpreter and it can run minikanren now, factoring 30 in binary as a test
2019-01-06T17:51:10Z rain1: https://gist.github.com/rain-1/d82962cacad652e70be73ff8a4c916d0 and there is a single file minikanren implementation for chez
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2019-01-06T17:58:47Z Riastradh: ecraven: You're doing solar system dynamics approximations...in integer arithmetic?
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2019-01-06T23:36:38Z gwatt: rain1: which minikanren? From the minikanren github, there's miniKanren, faster-miniKanren, simple-miniKanren, and others
2019-01-06T23:37:05Z rain1: it's got == and =/=
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2019-01-07T00:50:19Z siraben: What's the smallest minikanren implementation with disequality?
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2019-01-07T00:50:41Z siraben: Trying to find something along the lines of microkanren
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2019-01-07T18:17:48Z ober looks for input on popular templating format in the lispy/scheme world
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2019-01-07T18:38:04Z jcowan: ober: You mean HTML-ish templating?
2019-01-07T18:39:55Z vyzo: just general text templating
2019-01-07T18:40:03Z vyzo: html too
2019-01-07T18:43:31Z aeth: jcowan: I'm guessing ober is referring to something like https://mustache.github.io/ (which actually does have a Racket version)
2019-01-07T18:44:13Z ober: yeah jinja/mustache/twig sort of things
2019-01-07T18:44:14Z ober: settled on jinja2
2019-01-07T18:44:42Z aeth: As I explained in #lisp though, this approach is fairly rare in Lisps/Schemes as opposed to generating strings from s-expressions. e.g. (html "Hello, world!") -> "<html>Hello world</html>"
2019-01-07T18:44:58Z wasamasa: yeah, I don't get why you'd want to forsake type safety
2019-01-07T18:45:39Z wasamasa: the s-expression approach allows you to separate contexts cleanly and deal with unsafe user input appropriately
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2019-01-07T18:46:09Z wasamasa: for example, inside a css or script tag you'd have different escaping rules than in regular html
2019-01-07T18:47:22Z aeth: (My example macro ate the punctuation in the output, oh well... I guess I need to fix the implementation of it by adding more coffee.)
2019-01-07T18:47:47Z wasamasa: nevertheless, I occasionally see mustache style things
2019-01-07T18:47:52Z wasamasa: the last two in CL and elisp
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2019-01-07T18:50:28Z ober: think outside html. Config management, or any dynamical file generation needs.
2019-01-07T18:50:29Z ober: i.e. systems
2019-01-07T18:50:59Z wasamasa: I still find jinja2 inadequate for ansible
2019-01-07T18:51:36Z wasamasa: especially exceptions in it such as foo: bar {{ baz }} being fine, but foo: {{ bar }} baz not
2019-01-07T18:52:12Z wasamasa: because the value may not start with {{ and must therefore be quoted
2019-01-07T18:53:11Z davexunit: quasiquote is the lisp templating system
2019-01-07T18:53:32Z davexunit: and sxml is a good example of a system that does that
2019-01-07T18:54:08Z davexunit: jinja2, mustache, etc. all have the problem of being special languages that are limiting. quasiquote doesn't have this issue.
2019-01-07T18:57:50Z ecraven: ober: I use sxml for xml
2019-01-07T18:57:51Z ecraven: and html
2019-01-07T18:58:36Z ecraven: and css, and javascript and basically everything, actually
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2019-01-07T19:01:33Z rain1: HTML templating is different to text templating because you need to escape things differently based on the context they're in
2019-01-07T19:02:26Z ecraven: for text templating, skribe seems interesting (https://www-sop.inria.fr/members/Manuel.Serrano/publi/jfp05/article.html)
2019-01-07T19:02:45Z ecraven: basically, [ escapes to text, and ,( escapes back to s-expressions
2019-01-07T19:03:28Z ecraven: hehe: For instance, the size of the Skribe source files of this paper is about 52,500 characters long, and running it through Skribe produces 76,200 characters in LaTeX and 0 characters in HTML.
2019-01-07T19:03:38Z ecraven: I guess that 0 in HTML is not quite correct
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2019-01-07T19:29:55Z lightslategrey: Hi. Is it possible for not especially smart programmer to learn some scheme in 4 days up to the level of being able to "script" some app. (Scheme considered to be embedded into normal app I write). I it will take weeks?
2019-01-07T19:30:15Z lightslategrey: scheme in question is Kawa
2019-01-07T19:34:38Z lightslategrey: I mean, php programmer can start writing some basic python immediatelly. Python programmer can write some basic Java in probably hour after learning how to run run javac and discovering official java tutorial. How hard is would be with Kawa scheme?
2019-01-07T19:36:43Z Riastradh: About the same, I would expect.  (Never used Kawa, though, and I stay away from all things Java-related.)
2019-01-07T19:40:24Z ecraven: kawa can be very java-like or very Scheme-like, depending on how you use it
2019-01-07T19:40:59Z lightslategrey: Riastradh, I am also new to java. I just need to make some android app. And It would be practical for both me and customer to be able to evaluate some code from strings without reloading APK but just pushing new scripts from network. I consider Kawa because they explicitly support android. https://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/Building-for-Android.html This is how I spot this scheme
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2019-01-07T19:46:11Z pjb: lightslategrey: as for everything it takes ten years.  But yes, the basis of scheme is sufficiently simple, that you can learn quickly enough to be able to start usign it.
2019-01-07T19:47:56Z lightslategrey: ecraven, you have experience with kawa? can you please tell me - I can't find this their docs - is this possible for java code to execute scheme script stored in a string? without first compiling it into .class on desktop?
2019-01-07T19:48:29Z lightslategrey: pjb, :)
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2019-01-07T20:05:40Z ecraven: lightslategrey: (eval (read (open-input-string "(+ 1 2)"))) probably
2019-01-07T20:06:28Z ecraven: I've written non-trivial android apps in kawa years ago, it was partly fun
2019-01-07T20:06:43Z lightslategrey: ecraven, saving this piece to my notebook, thank you
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2019-01-07T20:09:03Z lightslategrey: ecraven, even non-trivial? then it definitely works on android. thank you. it' very important to know it already works for some people
2019-01-07T20:14:06Z ecraven: probably bitrotten, but that worked at some point https://github.com/ecraven/SchemeAndroidOGL
2019-01-07T20:14:31Z ecraven: this is the relevant file: https://github.com/ecraven/SchemeAndroidOGL/blob/master/src/Main.scm
2019-01-07T20:14:50Z ecraven: not very Schemey code, but it does not cons, and thus runs smoothly
2019-01-07T20:18:07Z lightslategrey: wow
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2019-01-08T04:25:52Z duncanm: la la la
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2019-01-08T06:17:24Z siraben: how can I implement tail call elimination?
2019-01-08T06:17:42Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline_(computing)
2019-01-08T06:18:05Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_call#Through_trampolining
2019-01-08T06:18:43Z aeth: I'm not sure if they removed the example code or if I didn't link to the related page that has it. It was helpful, though.
2019-01-08T06:18:49Z siraben: Would it be difficult to implement it?
2019-01-08T06:19:04Z siraben: I'd just have to analyze the current procedure being evaluated and the procedure being called next, right?
2019-01-08T06:20:09Z siraben: Oh never mind, I see the trompoling article
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2019-01-08T06:21:16Z siraben: What type of expressions can be tail call optimized?
2019-01-08T06:23:57Z aeth: You just return a thunk. Something like this if the thunk is `(thunk . (lambda () ,function-call) then iterate (do ((x thunk ((cdr x)))) ((not (and (pair? x) (eq? (car x) 'thunk))) x))
2019-01-08T06:24:27Z aeth: in other words, iterate calling the cdr of x until x is not a pair with the car 'thunk
2019-01-08T06:24:41Z aeth: (or use another data structure, but that's fairly simple)
2019-01-08T06:25:48Z aeth: I think this only has to be done at the implementation of lambda.
2019-01-08T06:26:01Z aeth: as in, lambda would return the thunk instead of the value
2019-01-08T06:26:37Z aeth: It has been a while so I might have a few details slightly off.
2019-01-08T06:29:43Z aeth: Hmm, actually I do a thunk in each form, but there aren't many in r7rs-small.
2019-01-08T06:29:55Z Riastradh: siraben: Implement in terms of what?
2019-01-08T06:35:05Z siraben: Riastradh: I'm thinking of implementing a Scheme based on the SICP register machine implemented in Forth
2019-01-08T06:36:58Z ecraven: siraben: just remember whether the form you are currently evaluating is in a tail context, if it is, don't 'call' but 'jump'
2019-01-08T06:37:07Z ecraven: (after adjusting the stack, if needed)
2019-01-08T06:38:49Z Riastradh: siraben: Register machine?  Not a stack machine, in Forth?
2019-01-08T06:39:37Z Riastradh: Suppose you're using a stack machine.
2019-01-08T06:40:00Z ecraven: if you're on a two-stack forth, tail-calling is even simpler, just drop from the operand stack, but leave the return stack untouched
2019-01-08T06:41:01Z Riastradh: And let's say you're _not_ using two-stack Forth, to illustrate the tricky part.
2019-01-08T06:42:06Z Riastradh: Let's say you're using an x86-style calling convention where to call a procedure, you push arguments onto the stack first, and then push a return address, and then jump to the procedure's address.
2019-01-08T06:42:41Z Riastradh: If the stack grows left-to-right, and we push the last argument first, then when we enter g in (f (g x y) z), the stack will look something like this:
2019-01-08T06:42:57Z Riastradh: ... z y x <retaddr>
2019-01-08T06:44:00Z Riastradh: Now suppose we have (define (g x y) (h y x)), say.
2019-01-08T06:44:18Z Riastradh: The naive thing to do would be for g to push some more arguments onto the stack, and push a new return address on the stack, and jump to h:
2019-01-08T06:44:31Z Riastradh: ... x y z <retaddr> x y <retaddr'>
2019-01-08T06:46:30Z Riastradh: Notice that the stack is now taller than it was when we invoked g.
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2019-01-08T06:46:48Z Riastradh: If we kept doing this, the stack would continue to get larger and larger and larger, and perhaps eventually overflow.
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2019-01-08T06:48:32Z siraben: So I could make use of Forth's return stack instead of implementing my own, then
2019-01-08T06:49:19Z Riastradh: Well, this would happen whether you use two stacks or one, if you do the naive thing to compute g as above.
2019-01-08T06:49:43Z Riastradh: Tail call optimization is arranging to compute g so that when the machine enters h, the stack looks like this instead:
2019-01-08T06:49:56Z Riastradh: ... z x y <retaddr>
2019-01-08T06:50:03Z siraben: Ah so we just transfer control to h directly
2019-01-08T06:50:08Z siraben: Without returning through g
2019-01-08T06:50:11Z Riastradh: I.e., we don't push a separate return address, but we _do_ update the arguments (reverse the order).
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2019-01-08T06:50:51Z Riastradh: But this also means that it must be the callee's responsibility to pop all the arguments off the stack.
2019-01-08T06:51:11Z Riastradh: For instance, what if instead we had (define (g x y) (h y x 1 2 3 4 5))?
2019-01-08T06:51:22Z Riastradh: Then on entry to h, the stack would look like
2019-01-08T06:51:30Z Riastradh: ... z 5 4 3 2 1 x y <retaddr>
2019-01-08T06:54:20Z Riastradh: If h simply returned to <retaddr> and left all its arguments on the stack, the caller in (f (g x y) z) would have no idea how many items to pop off.
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2019-01-08T07:37:49Z Jackie[m]: Why doesn't MIT scheme work on termux from compiling via portable
2019-01-08T07:38:25Z Riastradh: Be more specific?
2019-01-08T07:38:49Z ecraven: Jackie[m]: what exactly does not work? compiling? running? which error messages do you get exactly?
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2019-01-08T10:51:49Z Jackie[m]: Compiling
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2019-01-08T10:52:07Z Jackie[m]: Saying that I have unknown config
2019-01-08T10:59:21Z Jackie[m]: https://schemers.org
2019-01-08T11:06:02Z ecraven: Jackie[m]: maybe try pasting the exact error message in some pastebin, so we can look at it?
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2019-01-08T11:18:44Z Jackie[m]: Sure
2019-01-08T11:26:26Z Jackie[m]: https://gist.github.com/Archangel45/2718814193eb6cf40d841baae363cc35
2019-01-08T11:26:30Z Jackie[m]: ecraven:
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2019-01-08T11:53:17Z ecraven: probably MACHINE_TYPE is undefined
2019-01-08T11:53:38Z ecraven: is this an arm?
2019-01-08T11:54:00Z ecraven: Riastradh should know more about this, I never built mit on anything but intel processors
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2019-01-08T11:59:15Z Jackie[m]: aarch64
2019-01-08T11:59:17Z Jackie[m]: This phone is armv8
2019-01-08T11:59:28Z Jackie[m]: I will try faking it
2019-01-08T11:59:42Z ecraven: look in confshared.h for the other archs
2019-01-08T11:59:45Z Jackie[m]: With `linux32`
2019-01-08T11:59:52Z ecraven: no idea whether mit actually works on aarch64
2019-01-08T12:00:04Z ecraven: seems it should, with __aarch64__ defined
2019-01-08T12:00:19Z Jackie[m]: I saw an `arm`
2019-01-08T12:00:45Z ecraven: hm.. what's an IBM RS6000 and does it really have 63 bit floats?
2019-01-08T12:01:10Z Jackie[m] sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/uGLjZwSexZzmRUyOEvBicWUp >
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2019-01-08T12:04:18Z Jackie[m]: How does one manually define it
2019-01-08T12:04:41Z ecraven: should be defined somewhere or by your compiler
2019-01-08T12:05:03Z ecraven: seems the compiler should define it
2019-01-08T12:05:58Z ecraven: says https://sourceforge.net/p/predef/wiki/Architectures/
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2019-01-08T12:09:23Z Jackie[m]: Yeah but this is clang
2019-01-08T12:10:35Z ecraven: according to stackoverflow, clang --target=... -mcpu=... -E - -dM </dev/null  should show you the predefined macros
2019-01-08T12:11:11Z ecraven: which clang version?
2019-01-08T12:12:03Z Jackie[m]: 7.0.1
2019-01-08T12:12:23Z ecraven: I have clang 6.0.1 here, and clang --target=arm64 -E -dM - < /dev/null | grep __aarch64__ shows that it is indeed defined for that target
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2019-01-08T12:15:14Z Jackie[m]: <freenode_ecr "I have clang 6.0.1 here, and cla"> Needs input files
2019-01-08T12:15:43Z ecraven: something went wrong there with your matrix gateway
2019-01-08T12:15:53Z ecraven: there: http://ix.io/1xNk
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2019-01-08T13:58:38Z francogrex: hi, can someone help me with this please? https://pastebin.com/fAfJDZDG
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2019-01-08T14:00:08Z francogrex: i know it's the wrong way. I want to have a push that alters the list on which it operates (like in common lisp)
2019-01-08T14:00:35Z francogrex: they call it a destructive function?
2019-01-08T14:02:47Z francogrex: wait i will try this before: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1080328/append-in-scheme
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2019-01-08T14:17:27Z jcowan: francogrex: It's not possible; you need to write it as a macro (as `push` is in CL).
2019-01-08T14:18:15Z jcowan: In particular, you can't mutate the empty list.
2019-01-08T14:18:26Z jcowan: There Can Be Only One ().
2019-01-08T14:20:21Z francogrex: jcowan: yes true, xpected object of type pair(i.e. non-empty list), but got: , "()"
2019-01-08T14:20:55Z francogrex: with a non-empty list it works fine
2019-01-08T14:21:07Z jcowan: Here's a version that like CL pushes to the beginning (and is efficient):
2019-01-08T14:21:39Z francogrex: jcowan: I don't mind pushing to the end but ok
2019-01-08T14:21:57Z jcowan: (define-syntax push (syntax-rules () ((push elem place) (set! place (cons elem place))))
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2019-01-08T14:23:23Z jcowan: woops, need extra paren at the end
2019-01-08T14:27:51Z ogamita: francogrex: you can design you stack ADT purely functional.   (push element stack) -> stack   (top stack) -> element   (pop stack) -> stack
2019-01-08T14:28:45Z ogamita: (define (push element stack) (cons element stack)) (define (top stack) (car stack)) (define (pop stack) (cdr stack)) (define (stack-empty? stack) (null? stack)) (define (empty-stack) '())
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2019-01-08T14:31:28Z ogamita: francogrex: (let ((stack (empty-stack))) (push + (push 2 (push 3 stack))) (let ((op (top stack)) (stack (pop stack))) (let ((arg1 (top stack)) (stack (pop stack))) (let ((arg2 (top stack)) (stack (pop stack))) (push (op arg1 arg2) stack)))))
2019-01-08T14:34:58Z ogamita: Sorry, I meant: (let ((stack (empty-stack))) (let ((stack  (push + (push 2 (push 3 stack))))) (let ((op (top stack)) (stack (pop stack))) (let ((arg1 (top stack)) (stack (pop stack))) (let ((arg2 (top stack)) (stack (pop stack))) (push (op arg1 arg2) stack))))))
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2019-01-08T14:42:56Z francogrex: the macro of jcowan works perfect. good to put macro into use sometimes
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2019-01-08T16:08:37Z Riastradh: Jackie[m]: No aarch64 until 10.x, sorry!
2019-01-08T16:12:05Z Riastradh: Well, it might work to just apply 843f33de6d8133b3e2c9e3783e16d0ce38085b06 and 26b57e5fe7eb0e09e4e2f336fa1d4ab05bde29c3 (in that order) from Git.
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2019-01-08T16:13:24Z Riastradh: Oh, huh, those didn't get merged in any of the 10.x releases that have gone out either.
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2019-01-08T20:38:00Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/racket-peg/blob/master/IMPLEMENTATION.md  I wrote a explanation of how the parser works
2019-01-08T20:48:30Z Jackie[m]: Riastradh: it now can be compiled on    termux?
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2019-01-09T06:42:15Z ecraven: Jackie[m]: maybe try the git version, not the release
2019-01-09T06:42:53Z Riastradh: Jackie[m]: I don't know what termux is, but the two commits I cited are necessary to make it build at all on aarch64.
2019-01-09T06:43:12Z Riastradh: They should apply cleanly on top of the 10.1.4 release if you want to try that.
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2019-01-09T07:36:56Z Jackie[m]: Not scheme but lisp related, is this a good
2019-01-09T07:36:58Z Jackie[m]: Book
2019-01-09T07:37:00Z Jackie[m]: http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
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2019-01-09T15:42:38Z gwatt: Riastradh: termux is an android app that provides a terminal emulator and a debian-ish environment
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2019-01-09T23:59:47Z jcob: Man has chicken scheme changed all a sudden (and it seems like for the better, too!)
2019-01-10T00:00:24Z jcob: does anyone know what happened? Is there some article detailing the release of chicken 5?
2019-01-10T00:06:08Z evhan: jcob: The release announcement is probably a good starting point: http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/chicken-announce/2018-11/msg00001.html
2019-01-10T00:06:38Z evhan: Someone is working on a more involved article but there isn't one yet.
2019-01-10T00:06:53Z evhan: There's also #chicken if you have questions.
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2019-01-10T00:08:35Z jcob: thanks evhan :)
2019-01-10T00:10:12Z jcob: wow some of this stuff is a little jaw dropping :D I can't believe they've gotten to full numeric tower (without extensions im assuming) and REPRODUCABLE BUILDS.
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2019-01-10T19:04:20Z amz3: o/
2019-01-10T19:16:19Z gwatt: \o
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2019-01-10T20:29:29Z oats: what are some schemes with nice, featureful repls?
2019-01-10T20:29:35Z oats: I'm thinking stuff like tab completion
2019-01-10T20:30:03Z jcowan: oats: Generally people use Emacs and Slime for that purpose.
2019-01-10T20:30:28Z oats: sometimes I wish I were an emacs person :<
2019-01-10T20:30:47Z oats: but, I'll look into it anyways, thanks!
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2019-01-10T20:35:44Z gwatt: Chez Scheme has a pretty feature-ful repl. tab completion, multi-line editing / history
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2019-01-11T03:13:49Z metreo: how is scheme these days?
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2019-01-11T03:23:18Z dTal: practical and widely used in well-paid industry jobs
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2019-01-11T03:43:42Z aeth: Scheme is finally, slowly moving on from r5rs (1998) era Scheme
2019-01-11T03:44:40Z aeth: Programming languages tend to move very slowly.
2019-01-11T03:48:09Z ahungry: hi everyone - I've been tinkering with libguile and nodejs custom addons.  I'm at the point where my nodejs can define a function, and scheme can call the function from inside a scm file or running repl session, and the node can scm_eval any arbitrary scheme and get out the result.  If interop could be greatly smoothed over, think the idea has any merit?
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2019-01-11T04:26:22Z metreo: Interesting to hear, we are being given it in our programming languages class, eventually to build bespoke compilers
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2019-01-11T14:05:43Z wasamasa: every now and then you can spot someone obviously not used to scheme: https://github.com/radare/radare2-bindings/blob/master/guile/test-asm.scm
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2019-01-11T15:19:02Z aeth: wasamasa: if you know ASM you don't need to learn how to write Scheme properly, though, because they're basically the same thing. Just insert ( and ) on either end of a line before the ;-prefixed comment
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2019-01-11T16:37:55Z dTal: wasamasa: what's obviously unschemely about that, besides the brace style
2019-01-11T16:38:05Z wasamasa: the indentation?
2019-01-11T16:38:21Z wasamasa: the naming?
2019-01-11T16:38:29Z dTal: they've typed it C-style in a regular text editor, I do that sometimes
2019-01-11T16:38:30Z wasamasa: the fact you call them braces?
2019-01-11T16:38:43Z dTal: no, I called it brace style
2019-01-11T16:39:14Z dTal: I know they're called parens, but when you type them like that I think it's an appropropriate term :p
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2019-01-11T16:40:01Z dTal: the only unusualy thing I see about the naming is the use of capitals
2019-01-11T16:40:24Z dTal: they still use kebab case though
2019-01-11T16:40:54Z wasamasa: this is particularly silly
2019-01-11T16:41:07Z wasamasa: if it were at least consistent, but no
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2019-01-12T01:15:35Z siraben: aeth: Someone who didn't know Scheme still was able to make a pull request to https://github.com/siraben/zkeme80/blob/master/forth.scm
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2019-01-12T02:41:07Z siraben: how do I reset the guile compilation cache?
2019-01-12T02:41:52Z aeth: siraben: #guile might be a better place to ask questions specific to guile internals
2019-01-12T02:41:59Z jcowan: Just delete the .guile/cache directory in $HOME.
2019-01-12T02:42:07Z siraben: jcowan:  ah, thanks
2019-01-12T02:42:07Z siraben: aeth:  ok
2019-01-12T02:42:08Z jcowan: (I think that's it's name)
2019-01-12T02:42:24Z siraben: ~/.cache/guile
2019-01-12T02:42:26Z aeth: siraben: lol or someone could answer a few seconds after my answer!
2019-01-12T02:42:29Z jcowan: sorry, yes
2019-01-12T02:42:48Z aeth: sorry about answering so soon I'm just used to seeing people ask niche questions in places where there's a better fit and then never get an answer
2019-01-12T02:42:57Z siraben: Don't worry about it
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2019-01-15T13:57:06Z ManDay_: Given a list like (list l1 l2 ...) is there any better way to realize (or l1 l2 ...) then writing the whole recursion oneself?
2019-01-15T14:02:28Z ogamita: (not (member #f list-of-bools))
2019-01-15T14:03:00Z ogamita: Well, no, it should be (null? (member #f list-of-bools))
2019-01-15T14:05:02Z ogamita: Ah, no, member returns a boolean instead of an empty list (at least in mit-scheme). So not was right.  (map (lambda (list-of-bools) (not (member #f list-of-bools))) '((1 2 3) (#f #f) (4 5 #f 6 7))) -> (#t #f #f)
2019-01-15T14:05:38Z ogamita: Why is it not member? instead of member ?
2019-01-15T14:08:47Z Zipheir: Because member doesn't return a boolean on success, it returns the sublist with the car you're looking for.
2019-01-15T14:08:48Z lloda: ManDay_: srfi-1 has (any (list l1 l2 ...))
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2019-01-15T14:14:01Z Zipheir: lloda: any takes a predicate, so (any p? (list l1 l2 ... ln)).
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2019-01-15T14:16:46Z ManDay_: ogamita: ah, of course! list searching!
2019-01-15T14:16:50Z ManDay_: didn't think of that :)
2019-01-15T14:17:29Z ManDay_: uhm, though...
2019-01-15T14:17:36Z Zipheir: ogamita's version does indeed seem best, unless you absolutely need to shortcut the remaining list.
2019-01-15T14:18:07Z ManDay_: (member #f ...) wouldn't that return just the whole list if it looked like (list #f #f #f "not-false" #f #f) ?
2019-01-15T14:18:14Z ManDay_: Whereas "or" should return "not-false"
2019-01-15T14:18:29Z ManDay_: that doesn't seem to make sense, or am I missing something
2019-01-15T14:18:46Z Zipheir: What do you mean by "non-false"?
2019-01-15T14:19:04Z ManDay_: exactly that
2019-01-15T14:19:24Z ManDay_: (or #f #f "not-false" #f #f)  -> "not-false"
2019-01-15T14:19:39Z ManDay_: ogamita's version seems far from doing that?
2019-01-15T14:19:55Z Zipheir: Ah, sorry, brain is not fully caffeinated yet.
2019-01-15T14:20:09Z Zipheir: Right, you want the first truthy value.
2019-01-15T14:20:14Z ManDay_: yeah
2019-01-15T14:20:31Z ManDay_: but i guess another member-version will accomplish that
2019-01-15T14:20:35Z ManDay_: the search-idea is nice
2019-01-15T14:20:50Z ManDay_: memp, i suppose
2019-01-15T14:21:27Z ManDay_: (memp (lambda (x) (or x)) l)
2019-01-15T14:21:31Z ManDay_: kinda silly
2019-01-15T14:21:44Z ManDay_: sorry, that is
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2019-01-15T14:21:49Z ManDay_: (memp (lambda (x) (or (car x))) l)
2019-01-15T14:22:22Z ManDay_: that's really silly, lol
2019-01-15T14:22:27Z ManDay_: could also be (and (car x))
2019-01-15T14:22:45Z ManDay_: ah wait, just memp identity
2019-01-15T14:23:03Z ManDay_: (haven't had a coffee in years, so I'm excused :-P)
2019-01-15T14:23:45Z Zipheir: Have you looked at find from SRFI-1?
2019-01-15T14:24:21Z ManDay_: (memp car the-list) seems just fine
2019-01-15T14:24:53Z ManDay_: Zipheir: nope, not yet
2019-01-15T14:24:56Z Zipheir: (find values <list>) should give you the first truthy value of <list>.
2019-01-15T14:26:38Z Zipheir: (I'm using values as a portable identity function here)
2019-01-15T14:26:45Z ManDay_: hrm
2019-01-15T14:27:51Z ManDay_: i'll rather use the memp one
2019-01-15T14:28:09Z ManDay_: if I don't need the srfi, why use it
2019-01-15T14:28:28Z ManDay_: (it's memp identity l, though, as I initially had it)
2019-01-15T14:28:46Z ManDay_: or values, if that's more portable ;)
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2019-01-15T14:31:51Z Zipheir: ManDay_: If it works, go for it :)
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2019-01-15T19:20:09Z rain1: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/30904691/is-it-possible-to-bootstrap-mit-scheme-from-portable-c-to-native
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2019-01-15T19:43:53Z francogrex: Hi any users of kawa?
2019-01-15T19:46:33Z ecraven: yes, some here have used it and maybe still do
2019-01-15T19:48:48Z francogrex: ok, I know that it is possible to call java methods, constructors etc. but any idea of how to use/call java (lambda) functions (as https://www.boraji.com/java-8-javautilfunctionfunction-example)?
2019-01-15T19:50:11Z francogrex: this here is for methods etc: http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/Method-operations.html
2019-01-15T20:05:06Z wasamasa: francogrex: I'd expect it to be a matter of calling the apply method
2019-01-15T20:07:29Z francogrex: wasamasa: but one would need to write first the java function syntax in the scheme interpreter
2019-01-15T20:08:02Z wasamasa: it just desugars to an anonymous inner class or something
2019-01-15T20:08:28Z wasamasa: you can most likely use kawa's lambdas here
2019-01-15T20:08:36Z wasamasa: they have a callback example or two in the manual
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2019-01-15T20:31:21Z duncanm: francogrex: what are you trying to do?
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2019-01-15T20:51:22Z francogrex: duncanm: https://beginnersbook.com/2017/10/java-8-filter-a-map-by-keys-and-values/
2019-01-15T20:51:47Z francogrex: I already said, write a java lambda function in kawa
2019-01-15T20:52:04Z wasamasa: but why?
2019-01-15T20:52:11Z wasamasa: you have the full power of scheme at your hands
2019-01-15T20:53:47Z francogrex: wasamasa: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/util/Map.html in that interface, functions are parameters, and java functions are expected
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2019-01-15T20:54:44Z francogrex: wasamasa: I know it is much simpler to use scheme lambda's but sometimes for example, easier to use java constructs (like map and hashing) and functions there must be j functions not (lambda ())
2019-01-15T20:54:58Z francogrex: unless callbacks that you mentioned may work
2019-01-15T20:55:40Z wasamasa: it is also much simpler to use scheme hash tables
2019-01-15T20:55:50Z wasamasa: I wouldn't touch the java stuff unless absolutely required
2019-01-15T20:56:16Z francogrex: maybe
2019-01-15T20:57:37Z wasamasa: > 19.2.1 Lambda as shorthand for anonymous class
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2019-01-15T23:28:45Z duncanm: wasamasa: ahh, turns out there's SAM conversion in Kawa, so maybe a lambda will work in places expecting a java.util.Function
2019-01-15T23:28:46Z duncanm: https://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/Anonymous-classes.html#Lambda-as-shorthand-for-anonymous-class
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2019-01-15T23:29:30Z wasamasa: yeah, it's neat
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2019-01-15T23:34:15Z daviid: duncanm: it seems there is a tipo in the manual "Such a class is sometypes called a SAM-type ..." instead of "sometimes called ..." I guess
2019-01-15T23:34:30Z duncanm: ahh
2019-01-15T23:34:36Z duncanm: daviid: maybe that can be fixed in a PR ;-)
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2019-01-16T00:23:15Z duncanm: wasamasa: you're using Kawa too?
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2019-01-16T01:30:18Z duncanm: daviid: Per fixed the typo! Thanks!
2019-01-16T01:30:44Z daviid: duncanm: welcome, thanks to you and Per of course
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2019-01-16T01:34:31Z duncanm: ha, the code for SAM conversion is pretty straight-forward
2019-01-16T01:34:50Z duncanm: it's `checkType` in `gnu/expr/InlineCalls.java`
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2019-01-16T07:06:46Z wasamasa: duncanm: yeah, I used it for one java project: https://github.com/wasamasa/waka
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2019-01-16T07:07:31Z duncanm: wasamasa: i learned about `tools.dep` from the Clojure people recently, and I kinda wanna do something like that for kawa
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2019-01-16T07:07:54Z wasamasa: yeah, figuring out the classpath was the most painful aspect for this proje ct
2019-01-16T07:08:10Z duncanm: wasamasa: don't you think it'll be a cool hack?
2019-01-16T07:08:29Z wasamasa: it depends, tooling is something easy to get wrong
2019-01-16T07:08:37Z duncanm: when i realized/learned how tools.deps worked, it made me realize that it's not as complicated as I thought previous
2019-01-16T07:08:58Z wasamasa: I hate that leiningen is slow precisely because it does recalculate the classpath every single time and that enabling caching is not a silver bullet
2019-01-16T07:09:11Z duncanm: it's a program to that a file with a listing of jars, downloads them and construct a classpath string
2019-01-16T07:09:24Z duncanm: hmm
2019-01-16T07:09:37Z wasamasa: something like the clj/deps tools would be nice
2019-01-16T07:09:45Z duncanm: i just didn't know how to fetch jar files before without maven
2019-01-16T07:09:54Z duncanm: and even with maven, i'd just use the IDE
2019-01-16T07:09:56Z wasamasa: but even for them I hate that the main interface is the deps file, not the CLI arguments
2019-01-16T07:09:59Z duncanm: so it all seemed like magic to me
2019-01-16T07:10:10Z wasamasa: so I can't just override the classpath as I wish
2019-01-16T07:10:15Z duncanm: wasamasa: what do you think the right interface should be?
2019-01-16T07:10:33Z wasamasa: offer both, kind of like rarun2 does
2019-01-16T07:10:42Z duncanm: I'm just jealous of other people that can use java libraries by copying the pom.xml snippet from their README file
2019-01-16T07:10:47Z duncanm: that felt like magic to me before
2019-01-16T07:10:53Z wasamasa: you can switch between passing a list of arguments and having a file with a list in it
2019-01-16T07:11:23Z duncanm: with kawa, i felt like i was completely cut off from that, and now that I understand how grape/tools.deps worked, i realized kawa doesn't have to be cut off
2019-01-16T07:11:43Z duncanm: i'll look into rarun2
2019-01-16T07:12:07Z wasamasa: maybe not the best example because radare2 is famous for having an ugly interface, but I like it
2019-01-16T07:12:37Z wasamasa: https://radare.gitbooks.io/radare2book/content/tools/rarun2/intro.html
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2019-01-16T07:33:06Z fhdhsni: Hi, Could you please clarify what is *a* and *b* in this snippet. I'm confused. http://ix.io/1yrm
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2019-01-16T08:19:11Z ecraven: does *any* Scheme implement the new names from r7rs large red edition?
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2019-01-16T08:34:01Z wasamasa: fhdhsni: a continuation and an escape lambda I guess
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2019-01-16T08:34:34Z wasamasa: fhdhsni: this reminds me that I should review the continuation papers again
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2019-01-16T10:48:49Z siraben: wasamasa:  which continuation papers?
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2019-01-16T10:49:53Z wasamasa: Call With Current Continuation Patterns, A Better API For First-Class Continuations
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2019-01-16T15:18:02Z ManDay: Does anyone know either a plugin for gedit, geany or kakoune or an editor which would reasonably well indicate/highlight parens-blocks / if-else branches and lets?
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2019-01-16T19:29:57Z ecraven: Riastradh: hm.. just got the 10.1.4 tarball, per manual ran ./configure && make, and got:
2019-01-16T19:30:09Z ecraven: ;The object #t, passed as an argument to merge-pathnames, is not an object satisfying #[compiled-procedure 13 ("pathnm" #x9) #x1a #x9a8f0a].
2019-01-16T19:30:24Z ecraven: when compiling x11. I guess I need to first build only the microcode and no plugins, then install, then build the rest?
2019-01-16T19:30:28Z Riastradh: Hm.
2019-01-16T19:30:37Z Riastradh: That's not supposed to happen.
2019-01-16T19:30:38Z Riastradh: Stack trace?
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2019-01-16T19:32:12Z ecraven: http://ix.io/1yu7
2019-01-16T19:32:26Z ecraven: I do have an old git version of mit-scheme 9 or so installed on my system, but that shouldn't influence things, right?
2019-01-16T19:32:50Z ecraven: I did not run ./Setup.sh or anything, just plain ./configure && make from the tarball
2019-01-16T19:33:04Z Riastradh: ecraven: Yes, can you do this?  cd x11 && ../run-build --load compile.scm
2019-01-16T19:33:29Z ecraven: ;Unable to find file "x11-types.bin" because: No such file in system library path.
2019-01-16T19:33:39Z Riastradh: Sorry,
2019-01-16T19:33:46Z Riastradh: cd x11 && ../run-build --prepend-library . --load compile.scm
2019-01-16T19:34:11Z ecraven: worked, dumped x11-unx.pkd
2019-01-16T19:34:22Z ecraven: however, running make in x11 does not work
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2019-01-16T19:34:58Z ecraven: ah, you have to love automake... that Makefile is just insane :-/
2019-01-16T19:35:44Z ecraven: ah, maybe MIT_SCHEME_EXE is my system mit-scheme, not the newly-built one in ./compile.sh
2019-01-16T19:36:09Z Riastradh: It should be ../run-build.
2019-01-16T19:36:19Z Riastradh: Can you `make -n' to see what it would run?
2019-01-16T19:36:28Z Riastradh: (delete the .bin files to make it redo if you must)
2019-01-16T19:36:33Z Riastradh: Oh, wait.
2019-01-16T19:36:35Z Riastradh: (cd x11 && MIT_SCHEME_EXE=mit-scheme-x86-64 make)
2019-01-16T19:36:37Z Riastradh: What?
2019-01-16T19:37:11Z Riastradh: (quoting from your transcript)
2019-01-16T19:37:18Z ecraven: so if I run ./compile.sh, MIT_SCHEME_EXE is definitely mit-scheme, not ../run-build
2019-01-16T19:37:27Z Riastradh: This may have changed in master but not in 10.1.4, grr.
2019-01-16T19:37:46Z ecraven: might be good to merge this into 10.1.5 at least
2019-01-16T19:38:35Z Riastradh: commit f9240424db225dafffa5fb6078d371ce1cd0bad8
2019-01-16T19:38:35Z Riastradh: Author: Chris Hanson <org/chris-hanson/cph>
2019-01-16T19:38:35Z Riastradh: Date:   Thu Nov 15 23:03:45 2018 -0800
2019-01-16T19:38:36Z Riastradh:     Change plugins to use the already-compiled toolchain.
2019-01-16T19:38:49Z ecraven: that's way before the 10.1.4 release though :-/
2019-01-16T19:39:03Z Riastradh: This did not git merged into 10.1.4.  Can you send a note to mit-scheme-devel with: 1. the transcript of the build, 2. reference to this commit?
2019-01-16T19:39:31Z Riastradh: Yes, but 10.1.x is not just sequential snapshots of master; Chris cherry-picks commits from master to make the 10.1.x releases.
2019-01-16T19:39:37Z ecraven: ah, ok
2019-01-16T19:41:03Z Riastradh: So, yes, you will have to build with --disable-plugins or whatever, install (I usually do `./configure --prefix=$PWD/root' for this stage), and then rebuild with the newly installed one.
2019-01-16T19:42:12Z ecraven: thanks, sent
2019-01-16T19:42:26Z ecraven: just trying to update all my old code to work with the 10.1 series
2019-01-16T19:42:40Z ecraven: do you perchance know when define-library might hit a release?
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2019-01-16T20:05:00Z Riastradh: No idea.
2019-01-16T20:11:05Z Riastradh: Now, the commit I cited is essentially wrong, because it breaks cross-compilation...but that's a separate issue that needs to be resolved anyway, so as a short-term workaround it's an expedient hack.
2019-01-16T20:12:11Z ecraven: ;)
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2019-01-16T21:59:08Z jcowan: Ah, someone just voted. My life is redeemed.
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2019-01-16T22:58:22Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/single_cream/blob/master/doc/IMPLEMENTATION.md I wrote documentation about the implementation of my scheme interpreter
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2019-01-16T23:44:31Z amz3 reading
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2019-01-16T23:50:31Z amz3: interesting +fav +watch
2019-01-16T23:51:56Z amz3: jcowan: you forogot, I think, the link to the form to vote for tangerine edition, or what is on purpose?
2019-01-16T23:53:19Z amz3: I will try hard, I try to vote this time
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2019-01-17T00:04:14Z jcowan: yeah, I've been repeating it, it's tinyurl.com/tangerine-ballot
2019-01-17T00:04:20Z jcowan: but yes, I forgot it this time
2019-01-17T00:05:08Z amz3: I will post it to chibi
2019-01-17T00:05:29Z amz3: tx
2019-01-17T00:07:21Z jcowan: sent to all lists now
2019-01-17T00:09:34Z amz3: :)
2019-01-17T00:11:58Z rain1: ty amz
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2019-01-17T00:27:04Z cosmez: interesting read, thanks
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2019-01-17T00:35:00Z siraben: jcowan:  how many votes to tangerine so far?
2019-01-17T00:35:19Z jcowan: 18 (vs. 30 for Red)
2019-01-17T00:35:29Z jcowan: all: vote, vote, vote!
2019-01-17T00:41:26Z siraben: when does voting end?
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2019-01-17T01:52:45Z jcowan: siraben: noon UTC on February 2
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2019-01-17T04:20:31Z duncanm: is there a page online that shows which scheme implementation supports which SRFIs out of the box?
2019-01-17T04:21:16Z duncanm: ahh - https://practical-scheme.net/wiliki/schemexref.cgi?SRFI-18
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2019-01-17T04:29:39Z duncanm: what's the relationship between SRFI 18 and SRFI 21?
2019-01-17T04:29:45Z duncanm: what does real time mean in teh name?
2019-01-17T04:32:57Z aeth: duncanm: usually real-time means low-latency
2019-01-17T04:34:07Z duncanm: hmm
2019-01-17T04:34:10Z Riastradh: guaranteed latency, not low latency
2019-01-17T04:34:22Z aeth: well, yeah, you have some goal, e.g. a target framerate, and you want to keep it
2019-01-17T04:34:28Z duncanm: hey Riastradh!
2019-01-17T04:34:41Z Riastradh: In this case, `real-time' means `supports specifying thread priorities'.
2019-01-17T04:34:55Z duncanm: Riastradh: does MIT Scheme support that?
2019-01-17T04:34:59Z Riastradh: Nope.
2019-01-17T04:35:10Z duncanm: my guess is that it has its own threading API, similar in capability?
2019-01-17T04:35:13Z aeth: with real-time generally every 30 seconds or 50 seconds or 60 seconds or 100 seconds or whatever you have a goal to make (or in HFT, many more times a second)
2019-01-17T04:35:28Z aeth: often seen in e.g. graphics
2019-01-17T04:36:11Z aeth: games often have two framerates to meet, the logic tick and the graphical one because the graphics rate can very but the logic one might be fixed
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2019-01-17T04:36:32Z aeth: s/very/vary/
2019-01-17T04:36:33Z Riastradh: Has its own (green) threading API.  No priorities.
2019-01-17T04:36:42Z duncanm: so similar to SRFI 18
2019-01-17T04:36:48Z Riastradh: Yes.
2019-01-17T04:37:32Z duncanm: Riastradh: SRFI 18 is implemented by a few Schemes, you'd say it's a reasonable API?
2019-01-17T04:38:11Z aeth: I guess this real-time is a less common RT definition
2019-01-17T04:38:27Z aeth: well, time is a key part of it so idk
2019-01-17T04:38:33Z Riastradh: duncanm: *shrug* For what it is, pretty much.
2019-01-17T04:38:43Z duncanm: fair
2019-01-17T04:39:09Z duncanm: Riastradh: how goes the MIT Scheme hacking?
2019-01-17T04:39:29Z Riastradh: I inadvertently wrote an aarch64 compiler back end this past weekend.
2019-01-17T04:40:04Z duncanm: ahh, that's why you've been quiet ;-)
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2019-01-17T04:40:44Z duncanm: so aarch64 is similar to arm64?
2019-01-17T04:40:48Z duncanm: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/31851611/differences-between-arm64-and-aarch64
2019-01-17T04:41:06Z Riastradh: It is the instruction set used by 64-bit ARM CPUs.
2019-01-17T04:41:13Z duncanm: ahh
2019-01-17T04:41:26Z duncanm: Riastradh: do you have a device to test it on?
2019-01-17T04:41:34Z Riastradh: Not all aarch64 CPUs are ARM CPUs -- notably, Cavium implements the aarch64 instruction set but does not make ARM CPUs.
2019-01-17T04:42:19Z Riastradh: I think the name aarch64 is a little silly but it's what, e.g., gcc uses for the architecture name.
2019-01-17T04:42:23Z Riastradh: I sometimes call it aargh64 instead.
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2019-01-17T04:42:31Z duncanm: ha, that's something new I learned today
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2019-01-17T04:44:21Z Riastradh: Anyway, yes, I have a Pinebook to test it on, although I haven't tried running it yet.
2019-01-17T04:44:50Z duncanm: Oh, those look kinda neat!
2019-01-17T04:46:16Z Riastradh: (need to debug the debugger under NetBSD first)
2019-01-17T04:46:22Z duncanm: so you've been cross compiling?
2019-01-17T04:46:33Z Riastradh: Yep.
2019-01-17T04:46:45Z duncanm: fun fun
2019-01-17T04:47:00Z Riastradh: Everything should be easily cross-compilable.  If it's not cross-compilable then it's probably misengineered to have an incestuous relationship with the host.
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2019-01-17T07:21:46Z ecraven: Riastradh: how long did you wait for your pinebook? I registered at least a year ago, but haven't heard anything back
2019-01-17T07:26:41Z tolja: They haven't been able to deliver 14" models for a while
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2019-01-17T08:12:26Z ecraven: I think I wanted the 11.6" one
2019-01-17T08:14:16Z tolja: I was in a line for that for a few months last year, but ended up not buying it when it finally became available
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2019-01-17T12:04:16Z siraben: Today I learned that Coq can perform code extraction to Scheme
2019-01-17T12:04:42Z siraben: Anyone here read https://softwarefoundations.cis.upenn.edu/lf-current/toc.html ? I'm currently working through it and Coq is finally clicking
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2019-01-17T12:45:49Z jcowan: apparently amr64 vs. aarch64 is mostly a tweetle-beetle battle
2019-01-17T12:46:09Z jcowan: the Linux kernel has always used arm64, gcc has always used aarch64
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2019-01-17T12:46:51Z jcowan: for a while there were competing llvm backends, arm64 from Apple, aarch64 from other arm vendors; they were merged using arm64 as the basis but renaming it aarch64.
2019-01-17T12:47:08Z rain1: i might implement a mustache library in the scheme programming language. anybody want to join in?
2019-01-17T12:47:14Z rain1: http://mustache.github.io/
2019-01-17T12:47:29Z ecraven: I just use s-expressions :P
2019-01-17T12:47:38Z rain1: i take that as a no
2019-01-17T12:48:32Z ecraven: well, I might even be interested, but have no time :-/
2019-01-17T12:48:43Z ecraven: (or rather, have other more urgent things I'd like to spend my free time on)
2019-01-17T12:48:50Z rain1: oh i just saw there is already a racket version
2019-01-17T12:49:21Z ecraven: it always pays to check racket and chicken, they have a lot of things already
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2019-01-17T13:05:29Z ecraven: oaue
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2019-01-17T16:10:43Z Riastradh: ecraven: Can you specify on the mailing list _exactly_ what version you are using to build, and _exactly_ what version you are building, and _exactly_ which tarball you used?
2019-01-17T16:11:15Z ecraven: how do I find out the exact locally installed version?
2019-01-17T16:11:32Z ecraven: any way to get a git commit?
2019-01-17T16:12:23Z Riastradh: If you changed the git tree, no, it isn't recorded anywhere.
2019-01-17T16:14:52Z ecraven: Riastradh: do I actually *need* a local Scheme for anything when using the prebuilt binary tarball?
2019-01-17T16:15:08Z ecraven: sent a mail, hope that info helps
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2019-01-17T16:20:47Z Riastradh: ecraven: Exact URL of the tarball, not just the page you got it from.  There are several choices.
2019-01-17T16:23:27Z ecraven: ah, sorry, I missed that
2019-01-17T16:25:08Z ecraven: hm.. actually, this might all be my fault, maybe I *didn't* get the prebuilt binary version, but just the sources
2019-01-17T16:26:48Z ecraven: yes, seems like that is the case :-/ sorry for the confusion...
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2019-01-17T16:48:09Z ecraven: Riastradh: do you have any idea whether support for import on the repl is planned and when?
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2019-01-17T16:48:57Z ecraven: also, if I import a library, where will mit-scheme look for it?
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2019-01-17T17:30:44Z Riastradh: ecraven: I have no idea about MIT Scheme R7RS stuff, sorry!
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2019-01-17T18:40:42Z ecraven: no problem, sorry that I always keep bothering you, but you're the only one I know of that is on IRC ;)
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2019-01-17T22:39:11Z rain1:  I can't think of any good way to implement LETREC in my scheme interpreter
2019-01-17T22:39:25Z rain1: is there a way to do it without mutable variables or Y combinator?
2019-01-17T22:39:30Z rain1: I have mutable boxes though
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2019-01-17T22:45:25Z Riastradh: rain1: That's how you do it.
2019-01-17T22:45:32Z Riastradh: You can use the U combinator to make the Y combinator.
2019-01-17T22:46:20Z rain1: it just gets so complicated when letrec has multiple functions each with a different number of parameters
2019-01-17T22:46:30Z Riastradh: Well, yes.
2019-01-17T22:46:53Z rain1: I guess I should implemet mutation conversion just so that I can use the mutable boxes to do it
2019-01-17T22:47:09Z Riastradh: Exercise: write a program that takes a list of parameter lists, and returns the multi-way U combinator for a sequence of functions with those parameter lists.
2019-01-17T22:47:20Z Riastradh: Or, just do it with mutation.
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2019-01-17T23:18:45Z jcowan: rain1: Once you have boxes you can also do assignment conversion, which greatly simplifies supporting lexically scoped variables: you can copy them as much as you want because they re all immutable
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2019-01-18T17:50:48Z rain1: uff I need a new way to do LETREC without Y combinators or mutable variables
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2019-01-18T18:16:02Z gwatt: why?
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2019-01-18T18:16:52Z rain1: both ways are difficult to do in my interpreter
2019-01-18T18:17:02Z rain1: generating all the right n-ary y combinators
2019-01-18T18:17:08Z rain1: implementing mutation conversion
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2019-01-18T18:23:25Z ggole: Flat closures? But they aren't really any simpler.
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2019-01-18T18:24:47Z ggole: Probably the easiest method is Y with tuples used for multiple bindings
2019-01-18T18:24:52Z ggole: At least, if you have tuples.
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2019-01-18T23:26:49Z rain1: where can I get a set of simple LETREC correctness tests?
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2019-01-19T03:02:48Z meepdeew: Hopefully this is the right place to ask this (I tried yesterday in #Racket but got a reply) - I'm just seeing that htdp is in the topic greeting message here.
2019-01-19T03:03:01Z meepdeew: s/a/no
2019-01-19T03:03:05Z meepdeew: Anyone mind lending me a brain for a moment with what should be a pretty straightforward question from section 11.3 in htdp? https://pasteboard.co/HWWWyDN.jpg
2019-01-19T03:03:21Z meepdeew: Since any predicate passed to the check-satisfied test necessarily accepts only a single argument (the result of the prior check-satisfied expression) how can I compare the elements of that list with the input to the aforementioned second check-satisfied expression? At this point in the book, neither lambdas, nor local variable bindings have been introduced into the BSL language yet.
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2019-01-19T07:39:27Z pjb: meepdeew: closure.
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2019-01-19T07:40:07Z pjb: meepdeew: The predicate passed to the check-satisfied doesn't need to be generic. It can be a specific function that validates a specific sorted list.
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2019-01-19T07:42:57Z pjb: (define (sorted-list-validator list) (lambda (sorted-list)  (equal? sorted-list (sort list <))))     (map (sorted-list-validator (list 4 4 3 2 5 1))    (list (list 1 2 3 4 4 5) (list 1 2 4 3 4 5))) -> (#t #f)
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2019-01-19T07:48:36Z meepdeew: pjb, thanks. Unfortunately that won't run at this point since the book is incrementally building up language constructs available.
2019-01-19T07:49:04Z pjb: Then you can hardwire the result.
2019-01-19T07:50:05Z pjb: The question is for a test case.
2019-01-19T07:50:20Z meepdeew: Maybe I'm shoe-horning my expectations but the way the writing has been, I feel like there's maybe a clever solution they're expecting.
2019-01-19T07:50:53Z meepdeew: No map, or any applicative functions, are available either :)
2019-01-19T07:51:15Z pjb: (let ((in (list 1 2 3))) (check-satisfied (lambda (result) (equal? result '(3 2 1))) (sort>/bad in)) ; modulo the signature of check-satisfied.
2019-01-19T07:51:24Z meepdeew: It's just brute recursing everywhere
2019-01-19T07:52:42Z pjb: Again, the question is not to prove that any random function is not a sorting funciton, but to prove that the specific sort>/bad is not one.
2019-01-19T07:52:58Z pjb: So it suffice to prove that there exist one list that sort>/bad doesn't sort.
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2019-01-19T07:55:49Z meepdeew: I just don't see how they could expect that when we can't use anything like a lambda
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2019-01-19T07:57:08Z pjb: (define (321-validator? result) (equal? result '(3 2 1)))  (check-satisfied 321-validator? (sort>/bad (list 1 2 3)))
2019-01-19T07:57:18Z meepdeew: For the 2nd arg to check-satisfied, it's just the function name, like (check-satisfied 1 even?), so I think it's input is coupled to the single output of sort>/bad
2019-01-19T07:57:19Z pjb: Just give a name to your functions.
2019-01-19T07:57:34Z pjb: (check-satisfied? (sort>/bad (list 1 2 3))  321-validator)
2019-01-19T07:58:08Z meepdeew: Ahhh
2019-01-19T07:59:48Z meepdeew: Ok, thank you
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2019-01-19T13:15:23Z lisbeths: So what's the difference between linear lambda calculus and lambda calculus?
2019-01-19T13:16:36Z rain1: in linear lambda calculus each variable must be used exactly once
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2019-01-19T13:22:39Z lisbeths: How does that relate to reverse polish notation?
2019-01-19T13:23:28Z rain1: it isn't related to RPN
2019-01-19T13:24:38Z lisbeths: I am trying to invision a concatenative lambda calculus
2019-01-19T13:24:58Z lisbeths: /s/invision/envision/
2019-01-19T13:30:35Z rain1: de bruijn notation may be the closest
2019-01-19T13:30:47Z rain1: but it is really just not concatenative
2019-01-19T13:31:15Z rain1: on the other hand you can write S K combinator expressions in RPN (or just PN)
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2019-01-19T14:16:39Z lisbeths: I see
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2019-01-19T14:26:59Z lisbeths: makes me wonder
2019-01-19T14:27:14Z lisbeths: maybe there are some combinators that are better for a concatenative ski lambda calculus
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2019-01-19T14:28:54Z rain1: well there are lots !
2019-01-19T14:29:07Z rain1: SK is just a minimal* set (actually you can do it with a single combinator)
2019-01-19T14:29:27Z rain1: http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/cus/combinator/birds.htmlyou could have a big set of combinators like
2019-01-19T14:29:31Z rain1: ooops
2019-01-19T14:29:33Z rain1: http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/cus/combinator/birds.html
2019-01-19T14:31:47Z lisbeths: The goal is not to have to do parentheses
2019-01-19T14:32:07Z lisbeths: Simply to apply the next term to the current lambda
2019-01-19T14:34:09Z rain1: well polish notation and de bruijn indices would work for that
2019-01-19T14:34:40Z rain1: (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y))) could be written  lambda lambda $ 1 0
2019-01-19T14:35:46Z rain1: ((x y) z) vs (x (y z))  is  $ $ 0 1 2 vs $ 0 $ 1 2
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2019-01-19T15:22:28Z margaritamike: Anyone here use mit-scheme with SLIME?
2019-01-19T15:44:57Z ecraven: I do ;)
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2019-01-19T17:12:08Z margaritamike: awesome :)
2019-01-19T17:12:42Z margaritamike: ecraven: Did you have to use a cloned slime from git just to be able to set it up for mit-scheme -- aka use the slime-contribs stuff?
2019-01-19T17:12:56Z margaritamike: Happen to have written a guide? :P
2019-01-19T17:14:23Z ecraven: I use either https://github.com/ecraven/mit-scheme-swank  or  https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-swank/
2019-01-19T17:14:33Z ecraven: the latter works with many schemes, but doesn't have all the features of the former (yet)
2019-01-19T17:14:51Z ecraven: the former might not actually work well with current (10.1.4) mit without very minor updates
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2019-01-19T17:19:49Z margaritamike: The former is more featureful than https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/e6d215d77148079799d2fc3253ef402b5d9ed4d7/contrib/swank-mit-scheme.scm ?
2019-01-19T17:20:22Z margaritamike: It looks like the former doesn't require me to reinstall slime from a cloned git version which is nice :)
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2019-01-19T17:22:23Z ecraven: the problem is, neither the version that comes with slime nor the version that comes with mit scheme actually work, as far as I know
2019-01-19T17:22:35Z margaritamike: O_o
2019-01-19T17:22:55Z wasamasa: yeah, not surprising that these swankers don't care about us schemers
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2019-01-19T17:23:36Z ecraven: wasamasa: I spoke to some of them, they definitely do *not* want to support anything but CL
2019-01-19T17:23:44Z ecraven: which is ok, I understand that they don't want to cater to other languages
2019-01-19T17:24:02Z ecraven: they took one PR I had which fixed a problem I was having, because it had no influence on CL
2019-01-19T17:24:04Z margaritamike: wasamasa: are you saying the first one you linked doesn't work either? :(
2019-01-19T17:24:10Z wasamasa: they could at the very least, like, document their protocol and think about how to version it
2019-01-19T17:24:19Z ecraven: yea, but why should they :P
2019-01-19T17:24:28Z ecraven: they write the server and the client, they don't *want* other clients
2019-01-19T17:24:34Z wasamasa: to prove that they're not complete morons?
2019-01-19T17:24:36Z ecraven: like signal, which doesn't want other clients on its protocol
2019-01-19T17:24:39Z wasamasa: to not screw themselves over?
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2019-01-19T17:24:47Z wasamasa: but who am I kidding
2019-01-19T17:24:59Z wasamasa: that would require actual design
2019-01-19T17:25:01Z ecraven: well, I don't think slime is a perfect fit for Scheme anyway, it's just the best thing I've found so far
2019-01-19T17:25:07Z ecraven: maybe some day geiser will overtake it
2019-01-19T17:25:24Z ecraven: but then, the various schemes have much less in common than all the CLs
2019-01-19T17:25:26Z wasamasa: I don't have much hopes for that as long as they stick to in-band signalling
2019-01-19T17:25:48Z ecraven: wasamasa: what do you mean by in-band signaling exactly?
2019-01-19T17:26:27Z ecraven: slime communicates over a socket, reading and writing s-expressions
2019-01-19T17:26:33Z ecraven: geiser uses the repl, I think?
2019-01-19T17:26:33Z wasamasa: yeah and geiser doesn't
2019-01-19T17:26:40Z wasamasa: which is a huge problem
2019-01-19T17:26:44Z ecraven: yea, I question that decision too ;)
2019-01-19T17:26:53Z ecraven: but short of redoing everything, that's not something that is simple to change
2019-01-19T17:26:57Z Riastradh: wasamasa: The vitriol is unnecessary.
2019-01-19T17:27:03Z wasamasa: if I use geiser with CHICKEN, it starts with prompt #9, then prompt #18, then prompt #27...
2019-01-19T17:27:05Z ecraven: thus I still prefer working on my r7rs-swank
2019-01-19T17:27:25Z ecraven: well, I think geiser wants to be a thin veneer, while slime just boldly replaces the existing repl
2019-01-19T17:27:40Z ecraven: hm.. there's something new for gerbil, not sure how that works
2019-01-19T17:30:33Z ecraven: wasamasa: so actually just starting a server in a running application and connecting to it is really hard with geiser?
2019-01-19T17:30:43Z wasamasa: I suppose so
2019-01-19T17:31:27Z ecraven: I'm not even sure how useful the sort of interactivity slime has actually is for Scheme... all the Schemes I know are - as much as I can tell - much less dynamic than CL
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2019-01-19T17:31:44Z ecraven: so you just cannot mutate and inspect all the things, as you can in CL
2019-01-19T17:31:57Z wasamasa: people keep telling me how dynamic racket, guile, mit-scheme are
2019-01-19T17:32:07Z ecraven: yea, don't believe them :P
2019-01-19T17:32:24Z Riastradh: Such as?
2019-01-19T17:32:45Z wasamasa: all I know is that my cycle with CHICKEN is hardly interactive
2019-01-19T17:32:50Z Riastradh: Mostly CL just makes it a lot harder to separate the semantics of the program from its side effects.
2019-01-19T17:33:07Z ecraven: Riastradh: inspecting the stack / locals often does not show me everything I'd like to see
2019-01-19T17:33:15Z ecraven: (though it might not do that in CL either, not sure)
2019-01-19T17:33:33Z ecraven: (I've tried using edwin, but even edwin's excellent debugger does not always show values for every local)
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2019-01-19T17:34:15Z ecraven: but again, maybe this is my fault for just not knowing enough about the various schemes. though many of them for example disallow redefining non-exported functions in libraries, for example
2019-01-19T17:35:45Z Riastradh: ecraven: This is not something you can reliably get in Common Lisp either.  The compiler may not store every variable in a place the debugger will reliably be able to get at it.
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2019-01-19T17:36:10Z ecraven: but CL has (declaim (debug 3)) (?) to remedy that, doesn't it?
2019-01-19T17:36:34Z ecraven: but yes, I understand that sometimes (very often?) optimizations will prevent full debugging
2019-01-19T17:36:53Z ecraven: mit is definitely the most dynamic Scheme I've found (though I haven't used guile as much)
2019-01-19T17:37:15Z ecraven: chez is much less dynamic, allowing it to generate faster code (though that might not be the only reason)
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2019-01-19T17:37:36Z daviid: what does 'most dynamic' means?
2019-01-19T17:44:10Z Riastradh: ecraven: Proper tail recursion can also lead to discarding locals sooner than you may have wanted while debugging.  (It's not necessary to do so to guarantee proper tail recursion, but often that's the easiest way.)
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2019-01-19T17:44:33Z Riastradh: ecraven: You can ensure that the variables hang around by doing (reference-barrier (list x y z)) after the point where you want to make sure they're there.
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2019-01-19T18:51:25Z ecraven: Riastradh: thanks, a great tip!
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2019-01-20T00:18:51Z margaritamike: trying to install mit-scheme and seeing this error
2019-01-20T00:19:12Z margaritamike: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/PAkWBNcv/
2019-01-20T00:19:22Z margaritamike: any idea what this means?
2019-01-20T00:19:25Z margaritamike: trying to compile*
2019-01-20T00:20:39Z pjb: margaritamike: try: ls -l runtime.com
2019-01-20T00:21:10Z pjb: and: ls -l /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/mit-scheme/runtime.com
2019-01-20T00:21:25Z pjb: then you may try:  find / -name runtime.com
2019-01-20T00:22:33Z Riastradh: margaritamike: Install how?  Can you share (a) exactly what code you downloaded, (b) exactly what version of MIT Scheme you have installed already, and (c) exactly what you typed to try to build this, including the full output?
2019-01-20T00:22:37Z pjb: I find it in /opt/local/lib/mit-scheme-c/runtime.com  (mit-scheme is installed in /opt/local by MacPort on this system).
2019-01-20T00:23:32Z Riastradh: margaritamike: (Also, why do you seem to have 9.2 and not 10.1.4?)
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2019-01-20T00:23:42Z Riastradh: margaritamike: For (a), I mean the exact URL of the distribution you downloaded the code from.
2019-01-20T00:23:52Z Riastradh: I have to run now, but I can get back to this later tonight.
2019-01-20T00:23:56Z margaritamike: Riastradh: I'm trying to use SLIME
2019-01-20T00:24:02Z margaritamike: and it requires mit-scheme 9.2
2019-01-20T00:24:04Z margaritamike: for support
2019-01-20T00:24:35Z Riastradh: margaritamike: OK.  Please answer the other questions too, and I'll take a look when I get back.
2019-01-20T00:25:16Z margaritamike: I'm trying to install via https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mit-scheme/stable.pkg/9.2/mit-scheme-9.2.tar.gz
2019-01-20T00:25:31Z margaritamike: I have mit-scheme 9.1.1 installed already
2019-01-20T00:25:35Z Riastradh: (For (b), the answer might be of the form `I'm on Ubuntu 18.04, and I typed ``apt-get install mit-scheme'', and ``dpkg-query -W mit-scheme'' reports the following version.', for example.)
2019-01-20T00:25:45Z Riastradh *poof*
2019-01-20T00:27:00Z margaritamike: I installed mit-scheme on Ubuntu 18.10 via 'sudo apt-get install mit-scheme' I have 9.1.1 from that installation.
2019-01-20T00:27:13Z margaritamike: I tryed to install 9.2 via the following:
2019-01-20T00:27:55Z margaritamike: cd mit-scheme-VERSION/src
2019-01-20T00:28:23Z margaritamike: ./configure --prefix=/usr/bin/mit-scheme
2019-01-20T00:28:26Z margaritamike: make
2019-01-20T00:28:45Z margaritamike: I was stopped during make and got the error log I linked above
2019-01-20T00:29:07Z margaritamike: It ran for quite some time though, so maybe there's one small thing I'm missing
2019-01-20T00:29:16Z margaritamike: pjb, I couldn't find anything via your commands
2019-01-20T00:29:36Z pjb: margaritamike: indeed. this is the problem. mit-scheme cannot find it either.
2019-01-20T00:30:18Z pjb: TryL dpkg-query -L mit-scheme | grep runtime.com
2019-01-20T00:30:25Z pjb: s/TryL/Try:/
2019-01-20T00:33:07Z margaritamike: I get nothing back
2019-01-20T00:33:37Z margaritamike: I've never heard of such a thing
2019-01-20T00:33:38Z pjb: So it looks like a packaging error.
2019-01-20T00:33:39Z margaritamike: runtime.com
2019-01-20T00:33:58Z margaritamike: sudo apt-get install runtime.com ?
2019-01-20T00:33:58Z pjb: I'd advise you to get the sources, and compile them yourself.
2019-01-20T00:34:04Z margaritamike: ohhh
2019-01-20T00:34:11Z margaritamike: sources for runtime.com?
2019-01-20T00:34:20Z pjb: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/
2019-01-20T00:34:23Z pjb: for mit-scheme.
2019-01-20T00:34:33Z margaritamike: Yes that is what I've been trying to do! :P
2019-01-20T00:36:09Z pjb: Then why don't you have the Stable release 10.1.4?
2019-01-20T00:36:21Z pjb: http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mit-scheme/stable.pkg/10.1.4/mit-scheme-10.1.4.tar.gz
2019-01-20T00:37:09Z margaritamike: Because slime requires 9.2 to work
2019-01-20T00:37:16Z margaritamike: And I'm ok with that.
2019-01-20T00:37:50Z pjb: ok. But don't get it from apt-get, fetch the tarball and configure and compile it yourself.
2019-01-20T00:38:45Z margaritamike: I have to have a running version of scheme already
2019-01-20T00:38:47Z margaritamike: For some reason
2019-01-20T00:38:53Z pjb: debian/ubuntu packagers tend to split hairs in four, and split software into multiple binary packages.  They obviously either missed the runtime.com file, or split it out to some other package, with a missing dependency.  It's easier to compile the sources than to debug the packaging.
2019-01-20T00:39:25Z pjb: Anyways, I'm going to bed. Good night!
2019-01-20T00:40:51Z margaritamike: goodnight
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2019-01-20T01:27:28Z margaritamike: this is the dumbest shit
2019-01-20T01:27:38Z margaritamike: xD
2019-01-20T01:27:51Z margaritamike: how do i get runtime.com?
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2019-01-20T02:32:17Z jcob: Does emacs have a built in memory cap? If so, can I increase it?
2019-01-20T02:32:53Z jcob: (ive had a problem with lots of buffers being open & lots of overlays and it crashing emacs)
2019-01-20T02:32:59Z jcob: oh shoot
2019-01-20T02:33:00Z jcob: fudge
2019-01-20T02:33:04Z jcob: wrong channel
2019-01-20T02:33:31Z jcob: I apologise 🙍
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2019-01-20T02:45:02Z jcowan: jcob: Make sure you don't have a ulimit that's too small for what you want to do.
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2019-01-20T03:49:23Z margaritamike: I'm trying to install scheme 9.2 but getting the following errors with make install
2019-01-20T03:49:25Z margaritamike: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/aRs9vROn/
2019-01-20T03:49:40Z margaritamike: Doesn anyone know how I could get runtime.com, so this baby will build?
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2019-01-20T04:05:30Z sarkic: Far as I can see it should have been in there already. I've never used or built MIT scheme though.
2019-01-20T04:06:49Z sarkic: I'll say 'sudo make install' makes me cringe though -- is there a reason to not use a package via the distro's package manager?
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2019-01-20T04:19:43Z margaritamike: The distro's package manager only provides mit-scheme 9.1.1, sarkic.
2019-01-20T04:19:56Z margaritamike: I need 9.2 for what I'd like to do.
2019-01-20T04:20:28Z sarkic: Alas. Well, perhaps you can look into any patches it may have applied to get 9.1.1 to compile.
2019-01-20T04:22:19Z sarkic: Or maybe for some reason it needs a plain 'make' first. There's nothing in that log actually being compiled.
2019-01-20T04:24:01Z margaritamike: I did run a make beforehand
2019-01-20T04:24:08Z margaritamike: and a ./configure before that
2019-01-20T04:25:12Z margaritamike: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/nZAOGG2A/
2019-01-20T04:25:22Z margaritamike: If you're interested, sarkic
2019-01-20T04:26:05Z margaritamike: nothing in there about runtime or *.com though
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2019-01-20T04:32:48Z sarkic: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/mit-scheme-devel/2016-05/msg00000.html mentions runtime.com, regarding building pkg for 9.2.1 and
2019-01-20T04:32:51Z sarkic: ' debian/rules, debian/mit-scheme.install: Install runtime.com.  A
2019-01-20T04:32:52Z sarkic: >     9.1.1 runtime.com was needed to build THIS package.'
2019-01-20T04:33:26Z sarkic: So... looks like grab 9.1.1's.
2019-01-20T04:34:00Z sarkic: Or try 10.x if possible since it apparently exists now.
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2019-01-20T15:33:43Z margaritamike: Unfortunately all those links are dead in that archive
2019-01-20T15:34:06Z margaritamike: Also building 10.x gives similar errors
2019-01-20T15:34:10Z margaritamike: ubuntu is pure shit
2019-01-20T15:34:14Z margaritamike: :p
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2019-01-20T19:43:38Z margaritamike: I take back my negative ubuntu comments
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2019-01-20T19:52:04Z Riastradh: margaritamike: It appears that Ubuntu's mit-scheme has been mispackaged if for some reason it doesn't include runtime.com.
2019-01-20T19:52:41Z margaritamike: Yeah really hasn't been fun
2019-01-20T19:54:09Z Riastradh: It is _possible_ that from 9.1.1, if you edit src/Makefile.tools.in to remove `--band runtime.com', it might work by accident.  But I don't know.
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2019-01-21T15:50:54Z ecraven: maybe we should just let go of characters, given all the problems they bring.. iterating over a string would just give you smaller strings  ;)
2019-01-21T15:51:40Z rain1: lol
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2019-01-21T15:55:40Z jcowan: ecraven: I strongly agree, but it was too big a change to the IEEE base to contemplate.
2019-01-21T15:56:34Z jcowan: the Java BreakIterator classes allow you to iterate over a string by code units, code points, grapheme clusters, words, sentences, paragraphs ....
2019-01-21T16:09:45Z Riastradh: Heh.  Pretty much what I proposed over a decade ago when I still cared about pushing stuff around here.
2019-01-21T16:10:21Z Riastradh: Also calling it something other than `string' so that you wouldn't have to update old code that was built for `string == octet sequence'.
2019-01-21T16:10:43Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/proposals/new-text.txt
2019-01-21T16:16:31Z Riastradh: (Having some notion of a default iterator (not that we have it, but, e.g., C++ and Python do) that just gives smaller strings is not good, though.  You should have to specify exactly what kind of thing you want to iterate.)
2019-01-21T16:18:32Z jcowan: BreakIterator actually returns code-unit indexes from iteration rather than strings themselves.  You can copy them if you want to, though since Java strings are immutable there isn't much point.
2019-01-21T16:24:46Z Riastradh: Yes -- that's what I was proposing a decade ago, not directly returning the substrings.
2019-01-21T16:26:43Z jcowan: What it eliminates, though, is characters as a disjoint type (of course Java has those too).  But Java is anything Sun/Oracle says it is, whereas Scheme has no dominant implementer that can dictate results.
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2019-01-21T17:44:21Z gwatt: so would characters just become strings in this scheme?
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2019-01-21T17:48:16Z pjb: The idea is that there would be no characters. Only strings, some of them of length = 1.
2019-01-21T17:48:24Z Riastradh: `length'
2019-01-21T17:48:48Z Riastradh: gwatt: Strings or integers, sure.  Integer code points; strings of grapheme clusters.
2019-01-21T18:01:49Z gwatt: I'm asking with particular interest in the string library. If characters become strings of `length' 1, then would the character functions go away or be repurposed to work on strings?
2019-01-21T18:02:38Z gwatt: obviously functions that have duplicate functionality - char=? vs string=? - could go away, but what about char-numeric?
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2019-01-21T18:10:41Z Riastradh: Unicode character properties for the code points, e.g. nt=De or any of the other values for nt.
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2019-01-21T18:37:22Z Zipheir: char-numeric? and friends would presumably test each codepoint in a string if their argument were of length > 1.
2019-01-21T18:38:13Z Zipheir: Or just error out. Weird in any case.
2019-01-21T18:40:48Z gwatt: Zipheir: that's what I was wondering. Both are Ok, but weird
2019-01-21T18:47:31Z Riastradh: I suggested preserving them as defined on US-ASCII, and then using entirely different names for a modern Unicode replacement.
2019-01-21T18:49:58Z Riastradh: Instead, we spend a decade futzing around with halfway compatible kludges and I'm still fixing code that used to think `string' was one thing and now has to be taught to think it's another...
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2019-01-21T18:52:11Z Riastradh: (This mistake has been repeated in various places, because apparently we as humanity don't learn and get possessive about the word `string'.)
2019-01-21T18:53:16Z gwatt: Doesn't help that there are multiple different things all called "string"
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2019-01-21T18:53:40Z Riastradh: Simpson's individual stringettes!
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2019-01-21T20:01:49Z jcowan: The ship has sailed now.  The current battle is over the various competing string libraries.
2019-01-21T20:02:24Z jcowan: right now I am researching which Schemes use UCS4/UTF-32 representations. Riastradh do you know the answer for MIT?
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2019-01-21T20:26:49Z ecraven: jcowan: chars are ucs4 + bucky bits in mit, strings have changed, they used to be octets, now I'm not sure
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2019-01-21T20:29:06Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme does not use UCS-4/UCS-32.
2019-01-21T20:29:23Z jcowan: Okay, thanks.  What does it use?
2019-01-21T20:29:26Z Riastradh: Rather, for immutable strings, it chooses the narrowest option that fits between 1, 2, or 3 bytes per character.
2019-01-21T20:29:41Z Riastradh: For legacy mutable strings it uses 1 byte per character, and I don't think there are non-legacy mutable strings.
2019-01-21T20:30:10Z jcowan: Ah.  I didn't know anyone used that system, though it has been widely discussed.
2019-01-21T20:34:34Z Riastradh: But I don't know whether anyone has ever built any applications that actually use this.  Edwin and IMAIL still use legacy strings as byte strings and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
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2019-01-21T22:42:47Z Riastradh: Woo!  MIT Scheme cold load completed on aarch64.
2019-01-21T22:47:47Z gwatt: nice
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2019-01-21T22:51:20Z gwatt: jcowan: I think Chez uses something kind of like UCS4. At the very least, characters are represented as a 29 byte integer (3 bit tag)
2019-01-21T22:51:49Z jcowan: That's typical even where strings are more limited
2019-01-21T22:52:59Z gwatt: actually it may be 24 bytes
2019-01-21T22:53:12Z Riastradh: byte??
2019-01-21T22:53:15Z zachk: bit or bytes?
2019-01-21T22:53:18Z zachk: bits
2019-01-21T22:53:37Z gwatt: bits, sorry
2019-01-21T22:53:57Z gwatt: On the C side: #define Scharp(x) (((uptr)(x)&0xFF)==0x16)
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2019-01-21T22:55:35Z Riastradh: In MIT Scheme, a `character' is a 21-bit code point together with up to four bucky bits.
2019-01-21T22:56:05Z gwatt: which is weird, since that definition potentially overlaps with fixnums...
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2019-01-21T22:59:57Z Riastradh: Darn.  Did not get through compiling Edwin.
2019-01-21T23:01:47Z jcowan: Chicken has a 4-bit low tag, 21 bits above that, and then however many bits of waste, depending on the word size.
2019-01-21T23:02:35Z rain1: https://rain-1.github.io/scheme-7#Diagram theres my tagging scheme
2019-01-21T23:02:40Z zachk: has anyone ever gotten chez scheme working on windows via msys2 recently?
2019-01-21T23:03:53Z Riastradh: rain1: Here's a trick you might use: if you make the fixnum tag be 000, then the machine word representing an integer n is the integer 8*n, which makes arithmetic work out nicely.
2019-01-21T23:05:09Z rain1: that is a nice idea ! I remember choosing things to have false be all zeros - just noticed error in this document
2019-01-21T23:05:29Z Riastradh: rain1: In particular, 8*(n ± m) = 8*n ± 8*m, 8*(n*m) = (8*n)*(8*m)/8. and floor(8*(n/m)) = floor((8*n)/(8*m))*8.
2019-01-21T23:06:06Z rain1: that's pretty cool, i had worried abuot all the unboxing and boxing of integers causing overhead
2019-01-21T23:06:46Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme has all zeros for false.
2019-01-21T23:06:52Z Riastradh: I don't know how the tradeoff falls.
2019-01-21T23:09:07Z Riastradh: (But MIT Scheme also uses high tagging, not low tagging, so it's not as straightforward.)
2019-01-21T23:10:09Z Riastradh: (Should maybe use all ones for negative fixnums and all zeros for positive fixnums in that case.)
2019-01-21T23:26:03Z gwatt: zachk: On windows I just use the official installer
2019-01-21T23:26:19Z duncanm: la la la
2019-01-21T23:28:57Z zachk: will it work with msys2?
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2019-01-22T00:10:31Z gwatt: zachk: It works without msys at all
2019-01-22T00:13:33Z zachk: trying to use idris version 2 prototype and it uses chez scheme as a backend and its faster then their old C backend, my idris build uses msys2 though
2019-01-22T00:15:14Z Zipheir: Wow, Idris is using a Scheme backend? That's very cool.
2019-01-22T00:21:38Z zachk: ask edwinb :)
2019-01-22T00:21:52Z zachk: he wanted to get the self hosting compiler up fast so he went with a scheme backend
2019-01-22T00:27:04Z siraben: Idris, the dependently typed language?
2019-01-22T00:28:23Z zachk: yea
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2019-01-22T00:29:06Z zachk: for proofs of just math stuff though, I would rather use isabelle with all its automation features
2019-01-22T00:29:22Z zachk: you can let it run for a few hours and sometimes it will just give you back a proof script
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2019-01-22T00:33:21Z siraben: I'm going through logical foundations, which teaches the Coq theorem prover
2019-01-22T00:33:33Z siraben: The exercises are pretty non-trivial. It's quite fun actually.
2019-01-22T00:34:22Z siraben: https://softwarefoundations.cis.upenn.edu/lf-current/index.html
2019-01-22T00:36:01Z zachk: I tried coq a bit
2019-01-22T00:36:39Z zachk: I have minor interest in understanding general topology, and coq, agda and idris mostly has to do constructive mathematics, and there isn't much on constructive topology
2019-01-22T00:37:45Z siraben: I see.  I know nothing of topology myself, I'm much more oriented towards constructive mathematics; type theory, number theory etc.
2019-01-22T00:38:16Z siraben: Logical foundations doesn't do too good of a job of teaching how to prove number theory propositions, though.
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2019-01-22T00:38:50Z siraben: Is there a theorem prover written in Scheme/
2019-01-22T00:38:51Z siraben: ?
2019-01-22T00:39:26Z siraben: The kernel for proof assistants isn't too large, very "microkanren"-esque
2019-01-22T00:41:40Z Zipheir: siraben: c.f. The Little Typer!
2019-01-22T00:42:12Z Zipheir: siraben: https://github.com/the-little-typer/pie
2019-01-22T00:42:55Z Zipheir: Currently Racket only, but there's nothing in the language preventing it from being ported to other Scheme, AFAICT.
2019-01-22T00:49:44Z siraben: Zipheir:  what sort of type system is it?
2019-01-22T00:49:59Z siraben: Ah, dependent
2019-01-22T00:50:31Z Zipheir: It's not really a theorem prover, except in the Curry-Howard sense :)
2019-01-22T00:50:47Z siraben: I should try implementing the TNT system from Gödel Escher Bach
2019-01-22T00:51:01Z siraben: First order peano artihmetic
2019-01-22T00:51:06Z siraben: arithmetic*
2019-01-22T00:51:38Z Zipheir: Everyone should play peano once in a while.
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2019-01-22T01:00:37Z zachk: can you play ragtime on the peano?
2019-01-22T01:00:59Z zachk: peano made alot of sense to me with strong types and algebraic data types in haskell like languages
2019-01-22T01:01:09Z zachk: previous exposure was math books, and I was like ... waaaaa
2019-01-22T01:06:19Z Zipheir: GEB is probably where I'd point non-math people who want to understand Peano arithmetic
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2019-01-22T01:10:04Z Zipheir: But his axioms would be taught to kids learning arithmetic, if humanity had a more enlightened attitude toward math education. But I digress...
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2019-01-22T01:12:54Z siraben: Yeah, I think math education should not be afraid of formal theory
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2019-01-22T03:59:01Z nisstyre: Zipheir: there is a book that Bertrand Russell wrote called Introduction to Philosophy of Mathematics where he gives a basic English explanation of all that shit
2019-01-22T03:59:08Z nisstyre: peano arithmetic and so on
2019-01-22T03:59:12Z nisstyre: in the first chapter actually
2019-01-22T03:59:50Z nisstyre: * Introduction to Mathematical Philosophy is the title
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2019-01-22T06:23:34Z Zipheir: nisstyre: ty, yes, that's been on my list to read for a while. Russell is a really good writer on ... pretty much everything.
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2019-01-22T08:30:39Z ecraven: hehe, "the eyes to the right, the nose to the left" is just one of the best mis-hearings (?) I know
2019-01-22T08:32:08Z wasamasa: sounds like picasso
2019-01-22T08:32:24Z aeth: There's a whole subreddit for stuff like that, which started when someone posted "bone apple tea" somewhere. https://www.reddit.com/r/BoneAppleTea/top/?sort=top&t=all
2019-01-22T08:32:38Z ecraven: british parliament, "the AYEs to the right, the NOs to the left", when counting votes
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2019-01-22T08:36:59Z ecraven: aeth: hehe, thanks for that link
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2019-01-22T09:03:58Z Riastradh: It compiles and runs some tests now!
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2019-01-22T14:50:04Z nisstyre: Zipheir: he wrote it in prison actually too, and it was meant for the general population, not just high brow people
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2019-01-22T20:13:44Z ecraven: whoever came up with xml namespaces :-/
2019-01-22T20:15:12Z Zipheir: wat, those exist?
2019-01-22T20:15:25Z amz3: :/
2019-01-22T20:15:42Z wasamasa: lol
2019-01-22T20:15:59Z ecraven: xml without namespaces really isn't so bad, but namespaces are just a complete and utter mess imho :-/
2019-01-22T20:16:42Z Zipheir: Oy veh, the syntax is even worse...
2019-01-22T20:17:56Z ecraven: does anyone know how I can get ssax:xml->sxml to just read namespaces as namespaces, and *not* prefix the symbols by the namespace?
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2019-01-22T20:25:17Z wasamasa: I'm sure I've found out once, with a less than intuitive solution
2019-01-22T20:25:54Z ecraven: I tried passing #t or #f as the namespace argument, no luck there.. I'll look at the source later
2019-01-22T20:26:04Z ecraven: or I'll just port mit's xml code, that was very nice to work with
2019-01-22T20:26:04Z wasamasa: I think it was an empty string
2019-01-22T20:26:48Z wasamasa: I have some code here where I pass an empty list as second argument
2019-01-22T20:27:12Z ecraven: yes, that just leads to *no* namespaces (everything prefixed by the namespace) here :-/
2019-01-22T20:27:20Z ecraven: maybe my version of ssax isn't ideal
2019-01-22T20:28:10Z wasamasa: it must have been something else then
2019-01-22T20:31:18Z wasamasa: or no, an alist where the car was #f and the cdr the uri
2019-01-22T20:32:53Z wasamasa: yeah, the source code confirms it
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2019-01-22T21:02:56Z jcowan: ecraven: Why do you want that?  You mean disable the recognition of namespace attributes?
2019-01-22T21:04:12Z ecraven: no, I want the parser to recognize namespaces, and put them all into a list somewhere, only using the prefixes, not the full uris
2019-01-22T21:06:04Z wasamasa: then you'll have to pass '((prefix . uri))
2019-01-22T21:06:57Z ecraven: wasamasa: I don't want to know the prefix and uri
2019-01-22T21:07:05Z ecraven: it's part of the xml anyway, why can't the *parser* extract it?
2019-01-22T21:07:12Z wasamasa: good question
2019-01-22T21:07:28Z wasamasa: but so far I've had to pass that list in every single xml parser I've used to disable that nonsense
2019-01-22T21:07:59Z ecraven: I just don't understand how *I* am supposed to know all possible namespaces that some stupid SOAP wsdl can use, and define them all, instead of just using the ones I get
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2019-01-22T21:09:04Z wasamasa: clearly you parse twice, once to find the namespaces, once to resolve them :P
2019-01-22T21:09:29Z wasamasa: I remember writing a namespace stripping sxml-transforms thing
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2019-01-22T21:46:41Z Zipheir: "XML is simply Lisp done wrong." --Alan Cox
2019-01-22T21:48:48Z LeoNerd: Hehe
2019-01-22T21:55:45Z dTal: I don't know much about XML, but maybe it's possible to write some XSLT to remove the namespacing before passing it to the parser?
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2019-01-22T21:59:10Z ecraven: it is, but I need the namespacing, just in a form I can actually use
2019-01-22T21:59:15Z ecraven: mit's XML parser does this correctly
2019-01-22T21:59:39Z ecraven: (it creates nested records instead of sxml, with proper xml name records, which contain a prefix, a uri, and a local name)
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2019-01-22T23:34:49Z duncanm: ecraven: wow, people still use WSDL files?
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2019-01-23T00:38:10Z jcowan: ecraven: multiple URIs can be bound to the same prefix in different scopes, and indeed multiple prefixes can be bound to the same URI in the same or different scopes.  What sxml does is the only general thing to do.
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2019-01-23T02:41:13Z Riastradh: A further answer about char-whitespace? and stuff: aside from providing a predicate giving the answer for a particular code point, we should have regular expressions for matching these things in text.  Regular expressions work out nicely: you can compile them to efficient state machines no matter what underlying string representation you use.
2019-01-23T02:41:26Z Riastradh: s/predicate/table/1
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2019-01-23T03:39:02Z Riastradh: Whee, lots of tests are passing and Edwin is running too.
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2019-01-23T05:09:19Z duncanm: Riastradh: on your PineBook?
2019-01-23T05:09:23Z duncanm: or PicoBook?
2019-01-23T05:09:31Z duncanm: the little ARM64 computer
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2019-01-23T05:22:08Z Riastradh: Pinebook, yep.
2019-01-23T05:22:35Z Riastradh: I had Edwin running before, but only with the byte code interpreter, not with native code.
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2019-01-23T05:34:31Z adhoc: Whats Edwin ?
2019-01-23T05:35:03Z Riastradh: An Emacs clone that runs on MIT Scheme.
2019-01-23T05:41:32Z adhoc: ah, nice
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2019-01-23T08:11:48Z Riastradh: Made it through the test suite with only a few floating-point bugs, whee.
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2019-01-23T08:54:46Z ecraven: jcowan: just noticed yesterday that you were in on XML too! you've travelled wide and far ;)
2019-01-23T08:55:29Z ecraven: jcowan: so the prefix is in essence irrelevant, only the namespace name counts?
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2019-01-23T09:48:26Z ecraven: has anyone read this https://epsil.github.io/gll/ and understands how to add a new combinator "zero-or-more" for example?
2019-01-23T09:59:31Z wasamasa: funny, that's from one of the people behind evil
2019-01-23T10:01:31Z ecraven: I really like the interface, but I don't understand it well enough after the last modifications to actually write my own meta-combinators :-/
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2019-01-23T13:03:16Z siraben: How do I write a macro with define-syntax that does this: (foo a b c d) => (a bar b bar c bar d bar) ?
2019-01-23T13:03:29Z siraben: ((_ a b ...) (a (tick!) (seq-run b ...))))
2019-01-23T13:03:33Z siraben: Doesn't seem to work
2019-01-23T13:03:38Z siraben: in the syntax-rules
2019-01-23T13:03:49Z siraben: https://ptpb.pw/Zrz7
2019-01-23T13:09:12Z siraben: Hm Oleg seems to have written macro combinators http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html#ck-macros
2019-01-23T13:24:15Z ecraven: siraben: you can't generate new names (like bar) easily (that'd be unhygienic)
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2019-01-23T13:38:30Z siraben: I see.
2019-01-23T13:39:37Z ecraven: what do you want to do exactly?
2019-01-23T13:39:48Z ecraven: you can do (foo bar a b c) -> (a bar b bar c bar)
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2019-01-23T14:11:39Z siraben: Ah it's fine, I no longer need it
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2019-01-23T14:59:33Z jcowan: ecraven: Yes, I'm the XML John Cowan too (but not the bluegrass singer/player John Cowan)
2019-01-23T15:01:29Z jcowan: And yes, the prefix is a purely local identifier for the namespace, which is global, though readability (by humans) is enhanced if all prefixes are declared in the document (top-level) element once and for all.
2019-01-23T15:02:17Z jcowan: The reason for making them local is the possibility that when creating an XML document in a streaming fashion, a lower-level component might need to introduce a namespace, whether previously known or not, that its callers know nothing about.
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2019-01-23T18:00:03Z ecraven: yea, I think I understand now. thanks for explaining. my main gripe is that with 'http://foo.bar/baaz:quux means I have to do string->symbol and then find the rightmost : to separate the namespace name and local again :-/
2019-01-23T18:00:03Z rain1: siraben: what are you making with gll?
2019-01-23T18:00:31Z ecraven: t'was me ;) nothing yet, as I don't understand how to add more meta-combinators :-/
2019-01-23T18:00:40Z ecraven: but I'd like to use it for whatever, parsing xml, json, things like that
2019-01-23T18:00:42Z rain1: oh
2019-01-23T18:00:47Z rain1: have you seen my PEG library?
2019-01-23T18:01:04Z ecraven: nope, please link ;)
2019-01-23T18:01:15Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/racket-peg
2019-01-23T18:01:25Z rain1: also this https://github.com/epsil/gll/issues/4
2019-01-23T18:01:42Z ecraven: is it racket-specific?
2019-01-23T18:01:52Z ecraven: I'll look into it ;)
2019-01-23T18:02:06Z Riastradh: laaaaaaaaalr
2019-01-23T18:02:38Z ecraven: rain1: I don't understand that issue ;)
2019-01-23T18:02:47Z ecraven: Riastradh: you don't happen to be an expert in those gll parsers too?
2019-01-23T18:03:05Z ecraven: what kind of parser is *parser in mit?
2019-01-23T18:03:12Z Riastradh: *parser is a dumb recursive descent parser.
2019-01-23T18:03:17Z rain1: https://pkgd.racket-lang.org/pkgn/search?q=gll https://pkgd.racket-lang.org/pkgn/search?q=peg
2019-01-23T18:04:05Z rain1: I agree about lalr though
2019-01-23T18:04:07Z Riastradh: I'm not an expert in parsers.  I'm not interested in anything that hides exponential time and space costs in a cute syntax and the fashionable word `combinator'.
2019-01-23T18:04:29Z ecraven: how would you parse xml and json and whatever? hand-written parsers?
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2019-01-23T18:05:36Z Riastradh: A system for making parsers should be able to (a) guarantee completion, (b) tell you up front about ambiguity, and (c) tell you up front what it's going to cost.  LALR parsers do all of these.
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2019-01-23T18:06:18Z ecraven: thanks ;)
2019-01-23T18:06:31Z Riastradh: There's nothing either magic or wrong about `combinators' -- you could express a LALR grammar, with parsing actions, in combinators, and then compile it to a parser.
2019-01-23T18:06:42Z duncanm: hey jao!
2019-01-23T18:06:44Z rain1: https://github.com/schemeway/lalr-scm
2019-01-23T18:07:15Z Riastradh: As far as the desiderata I listed go, it's like saying `this parser uses software and has parser actions'.
2019-01-23T18:07:28Z rain1: this will be extremely difficult to get working in racket because of immutable pairs
2019-01-23T18:07:40Z rain1: it is endlessly irritating to me that they did that
2019-01-23T18:09:09Z Riastradh: rain1: There's two set-car!s and set-cdr!s in the whole thing.  How hard could it be to (a) use Racket's mutable pairs, or (b) just replace them by recorsd?
2019-01-23T18:09:12Z Riastradh: records
2019-01-23T18:09:55Z gwatt: presumably you'd also have to replace all cons with mcons
2019-01-23T18:10:24Z rain1: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/lang/scheme/code/parsing/lalr/ I found another lalr parser
2019-01-23T18:12:41Z ecraven: the main problem isn't mcons vs. cons but all the *other* functions that expect immutable pairs (like all of srfi-1, iirc)
2019-01-23T18:13:09Z rain1: i am not sure how good either lalr library is
2019-01-23T18:13:14Z rain1: are they hygienic?
2019-01-23T18:13:24Z Riastradh: What does it mean for a lalr parser library to be hygienic?
2019-01-23T18:13:34Z rain1: the thing i don't like about rackets built in ragg/bragg is that it is not hygienic
2019-01-23T18:13:44Z Riastradh: Oh, it is a macro.
2019-01-23T18:13:58Z Riastradh: Well, looks like the answer is no, then.
2019-01-23T18:14:08Z rain1: https://github.com/mbutterick/brag/issues/3
2019-01-23T18:14:46Z rain1: so yeah i would probably implement a new LALR parser with syntax-case macros, for hygiene's sake
2019-01-23T18:16:21Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/rain-1.github.io/blob/master/racket-parsing-libraries.md you can read/edit my blog post about rackets parser libraries
2019-01-23T18:19:12Z ecraven: maybe Someday™ we'll have portable r7rs-large xml and json libraries :D
2019-01-23T18:23:06Z rain1: parsing XML sounds like something that you could do 99% of in 15 mins but the last 1% would take 20 years
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2019-01-23T18:41:39Z rain1: what i think we need is to do a survey of implementors
2019-01-23T18:41:45Z rain1: and figure out which ones are actively against standardization
2019-01-23T18:41:48Z rain1: and just forget about them
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2019-01-23T19:01:10Z Riastradh: rain1: I think `passively against' (or `passive-aggressively against') is more likely.
2019-01-23T19:01:21Z rain1: hah!
2019-01-23T19:01:22Z rain1: yeah
2019-01-23T19:01:40Z rain1: it's just that we need to accept that some are not interested, otherwise we're not going to get anywhere
2019-01-23T19:02:54Z Riastradh: I dunno, you could use C++.
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2019-01-23T19:17:47Z ecraven: that cmu code seems really nice
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2019-01-23T20:06:55Z wasamasa: it may be surprising, but not everyone out there is going to be all in for you
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2019-01-23T21:37:02Z friscosam: technically Oleg's sxml [etc] packages are portable :p
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2019-01-24T08:03:43Z ecraven: friscosam: yes, that's what I'm using now ;)
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2019-01-24T11:47:01Z rain1: which schemes accept or reject the empty symbol?
2019-01-24T11:55:53Z ecraven: '|| ?
2019-01-24T11:56:45Z ecraven: hm.. none of the ones I've just tried rejects it
2019-01-24T11:57:08Z ecraven: which have you seen that rejects it?
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2019-01-24T12:09:18Z rain1: oh nothing rejected it
2019-01-24T12:09:31Z rain1: but i had an idea for something where I wanted to use empty symbol in place of null
2019-01-24T12:09:37Z rain1: and im starting to realize that it's a bad idea
2019-01-24T12:09:46Z rain1: although i think nobody actually ever uses ||
2019-01-24T12:09:54Z ecraven: I'm still on the fence on how to map json null to scheme :-/
2019-01-24T12:09:56Z rain1: it still feels bad to disallow it
2019-01-24T12:10:00Z ecraven: no good solution seems available
2019-01-24T12:10:03Z rain1: yeah it's sort of related to thaht stuff!
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2019-01-24T12:10:16Z ecraven: same for objects, actually... alists? hash tables?
2019-01-24T12:10:32Z rain1: on the json thing i was really thinking about why we haven't got [] and {} brackets in scheme for complex quoted literals
2019-01-24T12:10:39Z rain1: like hashtables maybe, sets
2019-01-24T12:10:50Z ecraven: ah, that's a deep rabbit's hole ;P
2019-01-24T12:10:58Z rain1: it's interesting to me :D
2019-01-24T12:11:00Z rain1: but um
2019-01-24T12:11:11Z rain1: I guess the main thing being overlooked is a basic head tagged list format
2019-01-24T12:11:11Z ecraven: as long as the default reference operation is "hash-table-ref/default", that is just way too long for something you use all the time
2019-01-24T12:11:19Z rain1: verbose but totally clear and simple
2019-01-24T12:11:22Z ecraven: I don't like the way closure does this (making hashes applicable), but it sure is more succinct
2019-01-24T12:11:34Z rain1: (json-hash stuf here) (json-array stuff here)
2019-01-24T12:11:36Z ecraven: (object (foo . bar)) ?
2019-01-24T12:11:38Z rain1: yeah
2019-01-24T12:11:46Z ecraven: well, arrays map nicely to vectors
2019-01-24T12:11:50Z ecraven: or even lists
2019-01-24T12:12:24Z rain1: yeah  but guile-json was having issues with mapping to lists .. and then that overlapping with other head tagged list objects (i think)
2019-01-24T12:12:33Z rain1: or it was mixing up assoc lists with arrays
2019-01-24T12:13:03Z rain1: it does need to be properly solved - i don't think we have it yet
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2019-01-24T14:52:50Z amz3: I need to re-read and understand this time the 'art of the propagator'
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2019-01-24T15:37:06Z jcowan: ecraven: JSON for sure (modulo the vote).  XML is more shaky.  Personally I'd rather have a MicroXML library, though that isn't good from the point of view of reading random XML documents.
2019-01-24T15:37:48Z jcowan: "be XML in what you accept, be MicroXML in what you generate"
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2019-01-24T22:35:36Z rain1: it would be interesting to generate a LALR parsing by partially evaluating a general "CFG interpreter"
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2019-01-24T22:42:47Z rain1: https://github.com/mikesperber/pgg/tree/master/examples/ll-parser
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2019-01-24T23:19:17Z Riastradh: That's what Essence does, isn't it?
2019-01-24T23:20:10Z rain1: yeah i just discovered it!
2019-01-24T23:20:19Z rain1: it's cool how this is actually practical
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2019-01-25T00:20:05Z friscosam: in my experience both xml and json are better served by having a lower level token/event api and then putting whatever DOM like (or whatever) on top of that
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2019-01-25T00:28:27Z jcowan:  I definitely agree for XML, but I don't agree for JSON.  I know there are use cases for yuge JSON documents, but I think they are a mistake.  Most JSON "stream" parsers seem to only handle cases where the top level is an array and each element has a more reasonable size.  In addition, there is RFC 7464, which specifies a JSON Sequence, a sequence of JSON values preceded by #x1E and followed by LF.
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2019-01-25T00:47:13Z friscosam: people make many "mistake"s in the wild, having tooling that can adapt is nice.  I'm working on a racket language that converts a json protocol description to code, having a json parser that can tracks source locations is good.
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2019-01-25T01:12:25Z ober looks for a column(1) support to format output to look like org-mode tables. is srfi-48 the right way to do that?
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2019-01-25T03:38:21Z Riastradh: rain1: Well, `practical' may be a strong word...
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2019-01-26T21:42:30Z duncanm: Quiet
2019-01-26T21:45:20Z pjb: Quiet!
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2019-01-26T21:53:27Z amz3: very
2019-01-26T21:54:39Z wasamasa: if you're looking for a project idea, I'm currently implementing a chip-8 emulator in elisp
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2019-01-27T13:32:42Z siraben: wasamasa:  is it public?
2019-01-27T13:32:51Z wasamasa: not yet
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2019-01-27T13:34:23Z wasamasa: all you get for now is some WIP screenshots: https://niu.moe/@wasamasa/101481823013491032
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2019-01-27T13:52:48Z siraben: wasamasa:  are you planning on hand-writing Emacs bytecode for performance?
2019-01-27T13:52:58Z wasamasa: lolno
2019-01-27T13:53:01Z siraben: maybe the bytecode compiler is good enough these days
2019-01-27T13:53:25Z wasamasa: well, there's a bunch of optimizations it has yet to learn, like loop unrolling
2019-01-27T13:55:48Z wasamasa: https://nullprogram.com/blog/2017/01/30/
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2019-01-27T17:58:03Z wasamasa: https://icosahedron.website/@bvtsang/101489763400240327
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2019-01-27T23:14:33Z jcowan: Someone pointed out a cool example in R7RS-small 6.2.6 (found in earlier RnRS as well):  `(real? #e1e10)`
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2019-01-28T07:19:04Z ecraven isn't sure he understands why that is a cool example :-/
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2019-01-28T08:23:14Z wasamasa: ecraven: EIEIO
2019-01-28T08:25:49Z ecraven: hehe, emacs puns!
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2019-01-29T08:09:49Z ManDay: Could anyone, in their own words, describe what they'd practically use dynamic-wind for? http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-14.html#node_idx_764
2019-01-29T08:10:39Z ManDay: Reading this and the weird example, I wonder whether perhaps I have never grasped the point of Lisp in the first place...
2019-01-29T08:10:45Z ManDay: Just... why... ?
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2019-01-29T08:41:34Z ecraven: ManDay: I think the idea is to provide a way to reliably free resources when they aren't needed any more
2019-01-29T08:42:06Z ecraven: release a resource in the after thunk, and it will be released even if control exits via an exception and not normally
2019-01-29T08:46:21Z ManDay: ecraven: Unhuh! They should cite you in there! ;)
2019-01-29T08:46:25Z ManDay: thanks! :)
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2019-01-29T12:47:49Z ManDay: ping
2019-01-29T12:47:52Z ManDay: welp
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2019-01-29T12:49:02Z ManDay: I have a feeling that the elegance of Scheme for prototyping algorithms is rendered all useless by those impossibly incapable debuggers
2019-01-29T13:01:39Z LeoNerd: I still feel that honestly, "print to stderr" (or local equivalent) is good for about 95% of all debugging needs
2019-01-29T13:02:06Z LeoNerd: I have an electronics lab full of equipment and yet most of the time, I just make an LED flash at the right time, and that does most of my digital electronics work :)
2019-01-29T13:02:33Z amz3: +1
2019-01-29T13:03:45Z pjb: ManDay: you can always write a more capable debugger.
2019-01-29T13:04:30Z pjb: ManDay:  see for example cl-stepper https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/common-lisp/lisp  (written for Common Lisp, but something similar can be done for scheme).
2019-01-29T13:04:43Z pjb: ManDay: but LeoNerd is right.
2019-01-29T13:05:44Z ManDay: LeoNerd: it's sufficient but incredibly inconvenient. i'm used to being able to examine the stack and variables and step
2019-01-29T13:05:55Z LeoNerd: Oh sure.. sometimes it's useful to have more
2019-01-29T13:07:14Z ManDay: i don't even have a specific trouble with guile's dbg, for instance. i just don't understand it. it seems to "randomly" omit frames (non optimized) and local variables and it apparently can deal with locally bound lambda
2019-01-29T13:07:39Z ManDay: *can't deal
2019-01-29T13:08:04Z ManDay: so indeed, i end up doing most of my debugging by adding "pk"s everywhere
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2019-01-29T15:11:13Z rain1: I wonder what debugging tools a scheme implementation could provide
2019-01-29T15:11:20Z rain1: i have got stack traces when it crashes
2019-01-29T15:11:29Z rain1: i wanted to add profiling but didn't get around to it
2019-01-29T15:11:37Z rain1: there could als obe something like interactive tracing?
2019-01-29T15:11:53Z rain1: maybe someone could come up with a really good debugging system
2019-01-29T15:15:37Z pjb: rain1: try Racket. I've got the impression it has one of the best debugging tools.
2019-01-29T15:15:49Z pjb: For example it's able to display the backtrace as arrows over the source code.
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2019-01-29T17:06:58Z amerigo: (define b
2019-01-29T17:06:58Z amerigo:   (lambda () (set! top-scope 'b)))
2019-01-29T17:06:58Z amerigo: (define a
2019-01-29T17:06:58Z amerigo:   (lambda () (let ((top-scope 'a))
2019-01-29T17:06:58Z amerigo:           (b)
2019-01-29T17:06:58Z amerigo:           top-scope)))
2019-01-29T17:07:10Z amerigo: why is (a) returning 'a
2019-01-29T17:07:14Z amerigo: and not 'b ?
2019-01-29T17:07:53Z amerigo: is there a way to modify top-scop from inside b function?
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2019-01-29T17:10:44Z gwatt: 1) use a pastebin please. 2) scheme is strictly lexically scoped.
2019-01-29T17:11:32Z gwatt: You may wish to check out either parameters or fluid-let
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2019-01-29T17:23:43Z pjb: You didn't define top-scope.
2019-01-29T17:23:54Z pjb: in b.
2019-01-29T17:24:55Z pjb: So you have a choice: either you define it as a global (top-level) lexical variable, or you define it as a dynamic parameter.  But as a free variable, it's up to the implementation what it will do.
2019-01-29T17:26:37Z gwatt: Even if they had defined top-scope at a level visible to both functions a and b, a will always return 'a
2019-01-29T17:27:56Z pjb: gwatt: sure. Since it would be lexical.
2019-01-29T17:28:02Z pjb: But at least, it'd be clear.
2019-01-29T17:28:24Z gwatt: Yes.
2019-01-29T17:28:41Z pjb: If you didn't want lexical, you'd use parameters (or fluid-let), and again, it'd be clear.
2019-01-29T17:28:43Z gwatt: of course, that person is gone.
2019-01-29T17:28:58Z pjb: of course :-/
2019-01-29T17:28:59Z gwatt: so now we're just arguing amongst ourselves ;-p
2019-01-29T17:29:00Z pjb: There's also an aternative, using closures.
2019-01-29T17:29:03Z pjb: :-)
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2019-01-29T19:57:30Z jcowan: https://blog.racket-lang.org/2019/01/racket-on-chez-status.html <-- tl;dr Racket on Chez is done
2019-01-29T19:58:15Z jcowan: "The current Racket implementation is fundamentally put together in the wrong way (except for the macro expander), while Racket CS is fundamentally put together in the right way."
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2019-01-29T20:05:32Z rain1: yikes
2019-01-29T20:05:57Z jcowan: however, new Racket is still slower, especially for I/O and mutable pairs
2019-01-29T20:13:49Z jcowan: listening to the RacketCS talk
2019-01-29T20:15:00Z jcowan: Flatt pronounces `vector?` as vector-huh instead of vector-pee
2019-01-29T20:15:21Z gwatt: I would expect immutable pairs to be slower, since Chez has no notion of immutable pairs
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2019-01-29T20:16:11Z ecraven: gwatt: it uses chez's mutable pairs immutably, and has different mutable pairs, I think
2019-01-29T20:16:28Z gwatt: Seems odd
2019-01-29T20:16:30Z gwatt: but ok
2019-01-29T20:17:15Z gwatt: jcowan: as for pronouncing, I like "vector-what"
2019-01-29T20:17:51Z jcowan: most Racket programs use immutable pairs only, so they are highly optimized
2019-01-29T20:18:10Z jcowan: which is how (mutable) pairs are in Chez, so it makes sense to reuse them
2019-01-29T20:18:18Z jcowan: mutable pairs in Racket are a record type
2019-01-29T20:19:06Z jcowan: Chez compiles more slowly, of course
2019-01-29T20:20:06Z jcowan: since it is AOT rather than JIT
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2019-01-29T20:24:25Z jcowan: Only two people have been able to touch the Racket macro expander in 20 years, whereas 6 people have been able to hack on the Racket7/RacketCS macro expander, which is only about 7 months old
2019-01-29T20:24:40Z jcowan: a crude maintainability metric, but there it is
2019-01-29T20:26:11Z jcowan: to build your own Racket implementation, just write 1450 primitives and it's done
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2019-01-29T20:26:46Z gwatt: seems like a lot
2019-01-29T20:28:53Z jcowan: yes, so this design involves much less of that, because so much more is in either Racket or Chez
2019-01-29T20:30:01Z jcowan: reduced to only 1000 plus about 40 new ones used internally only
2019-01-29T20:31:25Z jcowan: takes 500 to run just the expander
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2019-01-29T20:35:28Z jcowan: also, Chez compiles to machine code which inherently requires more memory
2019-01-29T20:38:22Z gwatt: The size for Racket CS is almost 3x larger than Racket for Mac and Linux
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2019-01-29T20:43:52Z lmln: in couple of benchmarks racketCS is faster than chez
2019-01-29T20:44:34Z lmln: or maybe not couple
2019-01-29T20:44:44Z lmln: significantly only in one
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2019-01-29T20:47:30Z gwatt: It's interesting that normal Racket is significantly faster than Chez and R/CS on collatz
2019-01-29T20:49:49Z jcowan: perhaps a better ratio library, I don't know
2019-01-29T20:49:50Z lmln: what's tak/takr/takl?
2019-01-29T20:50:34Z jcowan: tak is a recursion benchmark
2019-01-29T20:53:40Z jcowan: takl is a variant that represents an integer n as a list of length n in order to eliminate arithmetic from the benchmark
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2019-01-29T20:54:22Z lmln: I see
2019-01-29T20:54:38Z jcowan: takr has multiple (originally 100) differently named copies of tak and chooses which one to invoke at random as a cache-busting measure
2019-01-29T20:56:11Z jcowan: an interesting feature is that Chez can realize that (let (x (h)) x) in tail position is a tail-call of h and optimize accordingly, but because of Racket's continuation marks this difference is visible, and so the optimization has to be suppressed
2019-01-29T20:56:28Z jcowan: potentially visible
2019-01-29T20:58:25Z lmln: idris 2 is also using chez as a backend
2019-01-29T20:58:28Z jcowan: http://rpgpoet.com/Files/Timrep.pdf gives details on all the classical "Gabriel" benchmarks for Lisp
2019-01-29T20:59:32Z lmln: wow, very cool
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2019-01-29T21:00:53Z amz3: wow
2019-01-29T21:01:40Z jcowan: the systems being benchmarked are long since dead, of course, but the benchmarks themselves survive
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2019-01-29T21:23:47Z friscosam: has anyone ported the Richards benchmarks to scheme?
2019-01-29T21:39:10Z jcowan: friscosam: url?
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2019-01-29T22:09:39Z friscosam: https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mr10/Bench.html
2019-01-29T22:10:09Z friscosam: Now that I've thought on it I think there was a copy that ran on Larceny
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2019-01-30T17:25:27Z amz3: if you interested by my hacks using chibi and biwascheme to work with scheme in the browser you might be interested by https://github.com/amirouche/ff.js#ffjs
2019-01-30T17:27:00Z amz3: I also posted it at https://news.ycombinator.com/shownew
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2019-01-30T17:31:27Z rain1: very nice amz!
2019-01-30T17:31:43Z rain1: it has been a problem to get a proper scheme working in browser for a while
2019-01-30T17:32:36Z amz3: chibi scheme works well with wasm backend, I still need to make asynchronous server calls work, it's only a time issue, I mean I don't forsee any troubles
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2019-01-30T17:35:42Z amz3: asynchronous server calls is XHR also known as AJAX
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2019-01-31T10:48:18Z amz3: o/
2019-01-31T11:00:30Z amz3: rain1: hey, you triggered some interest with single cream project https://github.com/rain-1/single_cream
2019-01-31T11:00:56Z rain1: hi
2019-01-31T11:04:14Z amz3: bravo!
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2019-01-31T11:04:34Z amz3: I am wondering whether it will be a good host for my browser things
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2019-01-31T11:12:31Z rain1: it can compile to browser, i tried wasm but i didn't try running the tests
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2019-01-31T11:25:35Z rain1: it's not fully featured though just a very cut down interpreter
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2019-01-31T11:42:25Z ecraven: jcowan: what's a bytestring?
2019-01-31T11:42:48Z ecraven: how is it different from a bytevector?
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2019-01-31T14:35:32Z jcowan: It's a library for using bytevectors as if they were ASCII-only strings.  Useful for things like wire protocols, which often have ASCII bits embedded in them.
2019-01-31T14:37:53Z ecraven: ah, thanks, sorry that I didn't understand that from the linked document
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2019-01-31T18:21:41Z johnjay: correct if i'm wrong, but would this first example work in scheme?
2019-01-31T18:21:42Z johnjay: https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/28979/error-void-variable-in-mapcar
2019-01-31T18:22:11Z johnjay: it looks like the function func1 is defined to apply itself to the first element of a list? infinite recursion?
2019-01-31T18:28:59Z jcowan: if its argument is a list, it applies itself to each element of that list; if not, it just returns its argument.  So basically it copies a tree of pairs.
2019-01-31T18:29:07Z jcowan: And yes, func2 would work fine in Scheme
2019-01-31T18:29:43Z jcowan: modulo that mapcar is called map in Scheme
2019-01-31T18:34:59Z wasamasa: johnjay: you may find this helpful: https://wiki.call-cc.org/chicken-for-emacs-lisp-programmers
2019-01-31T18:35:40Z pjb: johnjay: why are you asking a common lisp question in #scheme?
2019-01-31T18:35:55Z pjb: or an emacs lisp question in #scheme?
2019-01-31T18:36:20Z pjb: johnjay: Please read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html
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2019-01-31T19:04:59Z jcowan: It's not a CL question.  He wanted to know if that code (modulo name issues) would work in Scheme, and the answer was yes.
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2019-01-31T19:57:42Z ecraven: aren't name issues just about the only issues?
2019-01-31T19:58:15Z ecraven: I mean, with changing the names and sufficient additional definitions, almost anything would "work in Scheme", right?
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2019-01-31T20:08:32Z gwatt: You would also have to deal with macro differences and dynamic scope.
2019-01-31T20:09:15Z gwatt: also, CL lets you insert definitions into packages. scheme does not let you do that in libraries
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2019-01-31T20:37:13Z ecraven: gwatt: you mean add definitions to existing libraries? mit allows that, I think that is an implementation restriction, not something r5rs or r7rs mandate
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2019-01-31T20:48:47Z gwatt: I didn't think r5rs even had libraries, and neither r6rs nor r7rs provide any way of externally modifying a library's export set
2019-01-31T20:49:21Z gwatt: I guess you could fudge that all with environments.
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2019-01-31T21:22:05Z meepdeew: Hello. I'm confused about the type signatures as written in the docs for some of HTDP's BSL library functions.
2019-01-31T21:22:05Z johnjay: jcowan: so in either case it's copying a list? so like a shallow copy i assume?
2019-01-31T21:22:36Z meepdeew: Woops, I don't want to hijack
2019-01-31T21:23:15Z johnjay: well there wasn't really a convo so it's fine.
2019-01-31T21:24:09Z meepdeew: Alrighty, thanks. So, for example, on-mouse accepts a mouse-expr. https://docs.racket-lang.org/teachpack/2htdpuniverse.html#%28form._world._%28%28lib._2htdp%2Funiverse..rkt%29._on-mouse%29%29
2019-01-31T21:24:10Z johnjay: j #chicken
2019-01-31T21:24:12Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/LbiaNv0Bjg
2019-01-31T21:24:23Z meepdeew: Why is that mouse-expr described as `mouse-expr : (-> WorldState integer? integer? MouseEvent HandlerResult)` instead of `mouse-expr : (WorldState integer? integer? MouseEvent) -> HanlderResult`?
2019-01-31T21:25:02Z gwatt: johnjay: it's a deepcopy of lists. If there are other composite types like vectors, those would be shallow copied
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2019-01-31T21:27:36Z gwatt: Wait no, vectors or others wouldn't be shallow copied, they would just be the exact same object as in the original tree
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2019-01-31T21:29:05Z johnjay: so if I fed it '(a b c) I would get back a second list with a,b,c as elements?
2019-01-31T21:30:27Z gwatt: yes
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2019-01-31T21:34:05Z friscosam: meepdeew: it's a different, equivalent, way to write the type signature
2019-01-31T21:34:58Z friscosam: meepdeew: its a bit more scheme-y with the arrow at the head of the list
2019-01-31T21:35:35Z friscosam: meepdeew: in other parts of Racket that notation is used for contracts (dynamic type checks) and also in Typed Racket
2019-01-31T21:41:43Z meepdeew: Ah, ok, cool friscosam, I'm seeing the docs for Function Contracts, Contracts, and Barriers`! So main takeaway is all arguments until the last, which is the type to be returned? I'm seeing there's also ->*, ->i, and ->d, but I'll keep reading for differences. Just seemed strange to use that notation for the BSL HTDP uses before it's even introduced lambdas.
2019-01-31T21:42:02Z meepdeew: Thanks
2019-01-31T21:42:48Z friscosam: yeah all those other arrows are variant for the contract system.  You don't need to know them to just do HTDP.
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