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2016-11-01T12:29:43Z des_consolado: hey I'm in guile in geiser in emacs, and I'm trying (iota 4 2.5 2) as it says here: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/SRFI_002d1-Constructors.html
2016-11-01T12:29:43Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/4cILyVwudC
2016-11-01T12:29:47Z des_consolado: I'm getting a wrong number of arguments, it only takes one argument apparently :(
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2016-11-01T12:44:55Z cromachina: des_consolado: you need to load the appropriate srfi that the extended function is located in
2016-11-01T12:45:08Z cromachina: (use-modules (srfi srfi-1))
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2016-11-01T13:07:03Z des_consolado: oh is this like extra libraries, like cpan in perl or something like that I guess?
2016-11-01T13:07:12Z des_consolado: cheers anyway, that makes sense
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2016-11-01T16:22:26Z pflanze: Hello. I'm growing tired of (cond (expr => (lambda (val) yes)) (else no)), because I keep forgetting entering the => or sometimes the else keyword.
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2016-11-01T16:22:36Z pflanze: Also, parens.
2016-11-01T16:22:51Z pflanze: (I mean, it just looks a tad too cluttered)
2016-11-01T16:23:24Z pflanze: Anaphoric if is one thing, but I often do need to nest them and capture things in separately named variables.
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2016-11-01T16:24:33Z pflanze: I've just written an |if-let| macro that works like (if-let ((foo expr)) yes no), but wonder if there's some better idea.
2016-11-01T16:25:04Z LeoNerd: It's a useful behaviour to have
2016-11-01T16:25:28Z LeoNerd: Iuse it in perl all the time {  if( my $foo = expr ) { yes } else { no }  }  and I'm always annoyed that other languages like C and JS don't have it
2016-11-01T16:26:04Z pflanze: It's really a bit of pattern matching. But I'm wary of big pattern matching libraries, perhaps for no good reason.
2016-11-01T16:26:23Z pflanze: LeoNerd, you forgot a defined( ) around your my statement above.
2016-11-01T16:26:45Z LeoNerd: I was being conditional on truth. Is that the intention of  if-let  ?
2016-11-01T16:26:57Z gwatt: LeoNerd: they do, you just have to declare `foo' prior to the if statement
2016-11-01T16:27:03Z pflanze: LeoNerd, or rather I usually use the safer list idiom in Perl:  if (my ($oo)= expr) { } { }
2016-11-01T16:27:09Z LeoNerd: gwatt: Yes, I know.. kinda icky though
2016-11-01T16:27:15Z gwatt shrugs
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2016-11-01T16:27:46Z pflanze: LeoNerd, it's really a mixed-up Maybe type here.
2016-11-01T16:27:52Z LeoNerd: Mmm Maybe
2016-11-01T16:28:10Z LeoNerd: I'd expect a Scheme macro called  if-let  to behave consistently with  if  and  let
2016-11-01T16:28:59Z pflanze: LeoNerd, yes, do you see any inconsistency with my example?
2016-11-01T16:29:32Z LeoNerd: Hm?
2016-11-01T16:29:58Z pflanze: Aha you mean re Maybe
2016-11-01T16:30:21Z pflanze: What I mean is that #f vs everything else is not really a check for boolean, but a check for Nothing versus Just a value.
2016-11-01T16:30:34Z gwatt: pflanze: what about (let ((val expr)) (if val yes no))
2016-11-01T16:31:05Z gwatt: is that what your if-let macro does?
2016-11-01T16:31:18Z pflanze: Only that the Maybe type isn't using a contains relationship in Scheme but an inheritance relationship, kinda.
2016-11-01T16:31:51Z pflanze: gwatt, yes, except val should only be visible in the yes branch.
2016-11-01T16:32:28Z gwatt: why?
2016-11-01T16:32:52Z pflanze: And that's also the reason I don't like your suggestion; it's really a maybe-val at that point, but it would also be tedious and stupid to write maybe-val in the yes expression.
2016-11-01T16:32:54Z gwatt: Obviously it's #f, but there's no reason to prevent it from being in the no branch
2016-11-01T16:33:17Z LeoNerd: What's the semantics for multiple variables?   (if-let ((one 1) (two 2)) yes no)   ?
2016-11-01T16:33:33Z pflanze: The reason for the if check here is "existence" and being able to access the variable when the thing it refers to doesn't exist is quuite wrong.
2016-11-01T16:34:02Z pflanze: LeoNerd, I'm thinking of checking `two` in this case.
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2016-11-01T16:34:22Z LeoNerd: So the truth of `one` is ignored?
2016-11-01T16:35:12Z pflanze: LeoNerd, yes. Maybe have an if-let* that checks all variables in sequence and stops on the first?
2016-11-01T16:36:15Z LeoNerd: Perhaps an  if-let*  that assigns/checks them all in order, and an  if-let1  that specifically does one variable
2016-11-01T16:36:21Z LeoNerd: (if-let (one 1) yes no)
2016-11-01T16:36:26Z LeoNerd: (if-let1 (one 1) yes no)   even
2016-11-01T16:39:50Z pflanze: I've defined an iflet macro too for the one-variable case.
2016-11-01T16:40:15Z pflanze: I kinda find it not to be very nice looking though, in fact; the (( )) are more like what you expect for variable assignments.
2016-11-01T16:41:07Z LeoNerd: Hm.. well, maybe keep them but only define it for one set
2016-11-01T16:41:18Z LeoNerd: So that my one/two example above becomes an error
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2016-11-01T16:42:06Z pflanze: Not sure I'd need that error checking, it's like a let with multiple assignment; if you assign it you'll have a reason to, the same way with let or if-let.
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2016-11-01T16:42:27Z LeoNerd: Yes but then it confuses people reading the code, because it's unclear how the 'if' part relates to it
2016-11-01T16:42:38Z pflanze: Hm yes fair point on that one.
2016-11-01T16:43:09Z LeoNerd: I asked the question of how it handles one/two not so much because I was interested in the answer, but to point out that it's an ambiguous behaviour that has such a question in the first place
2016-11-01T16:43:54Z pflanze: Maybe have if-let check all variables, too (just not make them visible to the other expressions).
2016-11-01T16:43:59Z pflanze: That's more consistent.
2016-11-01T16:45:27Z pflanze: (At the slight cost of requiring the user to move assignments that might validly receive #f outside the if-let form.)
2016-11-01T16:46:09Z pflanze: (Which is philosophically correct, too, as they can be allowed to be visible in the no branch as well.)
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2016-11-01T17:03:09Z jcowan: I'm planning to write a library that simulates Maybe while still being Schemish by treating #f as Nothing, but wrapping anything else (including #f).
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2016-11-01T17:07:01Z pflanze: jcowan, hm, would be interesting to see how it fares.
2016-11-01T17:07:23Z jcowan: The trick is to fit it into a framework of simple monads
2016-11-01T17:07:47Z pflanze: I've written Maybe as a wrapper (using (Nothing) for the nothing case), only thing is it necessitates separate if-let style macros.
2016-11-01T17:08:05Z jcowan: Right.  The trick is to integrate nicely with Scheme if.
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2016-11-01T17:09:11Z jcowan: By itself it isn't much:
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2016-11-01T17:10:25Z pflanze: jcowan, I've been working on monads on and off for a long time, I would be interested in what you're doing.
2016-11-01T17:10:47Z jcowan: (define-record-type <just> (Just slot) just? (slot just))
2016-11-01T17:11:03Z jcowan: (define (maybe? obj) (or (just? obj) (nothing? obj)))
2016-11-01T17:11:22Z jcowan: (define (nothing? obj) (not obj))
2016-11-01T17:11:35Z jcowan: (define Nothing #f)
2016-11-01T17:13:44Z pflanze: I wonder whether simply changing |if| to only accept #f and #t, and using other syntax to deal with maybe types isn't the way to go.
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2016-11-01T17:43:54Z jcowan: pflanze: That's what I would have done if I were quux, but fortunately for all I'm not
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2016-11-01T18:07:04Z pflanze: I want to use Scheme systems that allow me to redefine |if| (if only local to a module).
2016-11-01T18:08:18Z gwatt: I think that's evey scheme
2016-11-01T18:08:30Z LeoNerd: Scheme is all about lexical state
2016-11-01T18:08:30Z gwatt: (at least, every scheme that has modules)
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2016-11-01T18:20:57Z pflanze: Yes, I said that in response to jcowan; i.e. have a Scheme variant that requires me to separate checks for booleans and maybe types without having to be Quux.
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2016-11-01T18:21:37Z pflanze: But the only-wrap-Just-case approach may be worthwhile, too.
2016-11-01T18:22:55Z ecraven: will x/1000.0 - x/1000.0 always be 0.0 with ieee 754 floats (if x is the same value)?
2016-11-01T18:23:03Z ecraven: or could it be -1e-50 or so?
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2016-11-01T18:49:04Z gwatt: (let ([num (/ 1e400 1000.0)]) (- num num)) => +nan.0
2016-11-01T18:50:07Z ecraven: gwatt: thanks. unfortunately x in this case is an int32, I don't think that can be used to create infinity :-/
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2016-11-01T18:51:59Z jcowan: That's because 1e400 is +inf.0
2016-11-01T18:52:20Z gwatt: ecraven: yeah, that (- num num) held true for values less than +inf.0
2016-11-01T18:52:30Z gwatt: (- num num) == 0, i mean
2016-11-01T18:58:24Z jcowan: Actually it applies for infinities too, but not for NaN: dividing an infinite number by a finite number gives you NaN, as you'd expect
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2016-11-01T18:59:09Z ecraven: I should really learn more about floating point numbers, I'm never sure which behaviour is guaranteed and what might be different next time
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2016-11-01T19:53:45Z wingo: schemers
2016-11-01T19:53:48Z wingo: good evening.
2016-11-01T19:54:04Z dpk: wingo, the same to you!
2016-11-01T19:54:12Z wingo: srfi-18 question for those in the know: it would appear that attempting to lock an abandoned mutex should throw an exception.
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2016-11-01T19:54:35Z wingo: however!  should attempting to lock the same mutex a second time from the same thread still throw an exception?
2016-11-01T19:55:35Z wingo: the spec would seem to suggest that the first lock attempt changes the state of the mutex to unlocked/abandoned
2016-11-01T19:55:43Z wingo: which resets the owner thread afaiu
2016-11-01T19:56:20Z wingo: it is a hard document to read :P
2016-11-01T19:56:42Z kori: good evening wingo
2016-11-01T19:56:50Z kori: cheers
2016-11-01T19:56:54Z wingo: :)
2016-11-01T19:56:56Z wingo waves
2016-11-01T19:57:29Z MoronicAcid: What does the underscore character (_) mean?
2016-11-01T19:58:07Z wingo: sometimes it means "match anything" in a pattern
2016-11-01T19:58:13Z wingo: otherwise it is just an identifier
2016-11-01T19:58:21Z wingo: so depends on what it's bound to :)
2016-11-01T19:58:32Z MoronicAcid: wingo: Thanks.
2016-11-01T19:59:08Z gnomon: wingo, I hear your question, but I'm afraid I have nothing of substance to contribute as a response.  Just giving you some feedback that you're not going unheard.
2016-11-01T19:59:41Z wingo: haha thank you gnomon :P
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2016-11-02T07:19:27Z des_consolado: Hey I'm using Guile in Emacs, every time I hit return to evaluate an expression, my M-f key to go forward a word doesn't work until I've moved to the right some other way - C-f works, right-arrow works, C-e works, just not M-f
2016-11-02T07:20:36Z des_consolado: My workflow is usually like blah blah blah bish bash bosh some stuff and M-p however many times to get some previous expression back from the history, and then M-f to move forward through it by the word until I get to where I need to get to
2016-11-02T07:20:54Z des_consolado: so this is a slight annoyance... not earth-shattering though obviously lol, just slightly odd behaviour
2016-11-02T07:21:01Z des_consolado: I should probably askin #emacs too I guess
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2016-11-02T12:09:27Z ecraven: does any srfi contain a procedure to randomize a list (make the order random)
2016-11-02T12:09:31Z ecraven: "shuffle" it :)
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2016-11-02T13:42:43Z foof`: ecraven: complex nans/infs were intended in the spec. i don't like it myself, but can understand the arguments for it.
2016-11-02T13:44:25Z foof`: the inability to read them is a bug in chibi, i should really fix it but have been too busy.
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2016-11-02T13:44:36Z ecraven: thanks for clarifying this!
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2016-11-02T15:54:40Z jcowan: ecraven: Numbers like +inf+2i can be understood by understanding floats as intervals of the real line.  Each finite float corresponds to a specific subinterval of the interval of represented floats, +inf.0 corresponds to the interval of every real number larger than that, and -inf.0 to the interval of every number smaller than that.
2016-11-02T15:55:04Z jcowan: +nan.0 corresponds to either of two intervals: the whole number line or none of the number line, depending on how it is formed.
2016-11-02T15:57:12Z jcowan: so +inf.0+2.0i is the area whose x-coordinates correspond to the large positive interval, and whose y-coordinates correspond to the interval around (mathematical) 2.
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2016-11-02T18:41:05Z jonaslund: does any impl allow dot notation calls ?
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2016-11-02T18:41:50Z jonaslund: ie (define y (list 3 4 5))   (vafun 1 2 . y)
2016-11-02T18:43:30Z pflanze: I would suspect that Racket does if you add a macro for function application that turns it into apply ? Don't know though.
2016-11-02T18:44:09Z pflanze: But yes I wonder what the reason is that Scheme doesn't support that out of the box?
2016-11-02T18:44:49Z pflanze: Ah one problem is:
2016-11-02T18:45:05Z pflanze: (define (y) (list 3 4 5))  (vafun 1 2 . (y))
2016-11-02T18:45:57Z pflanze: i.e. you need |apply| anyway in the general case.
2016-11-02T18:46:20Z jonaslund: sounds good
2016-11-02T18:46:34Z jonaslund: fiddling with stack frames and crap
2016-11-02T18:46:39Z jonaslund: call/cc will be enough of a headache
2016-11-02T18:47:00Z jonaslund: (punting implementing that initially also)
2016-11-02T18:48:39Z ecraven: jcowan: I think my bewilderment was due to the fact that chibi seems to produce such numbers readily, but cannot read them back
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2016-11-02T18:55:51Z jcowan: jonaslund: experience suggests that you will have to rip up the whole thing to do that, unless you are very careful to avoid implementing Scheme calls and returns with calls and returns in the implementation language.
2016-11-02T18:55:59Z jcowan: (do that = implement call/cc)
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2016-11-02T18:58:26Z jonaslund: jcowan: yeah, not 100% on how to do it elegantly but considering only allowing "toplevels" callbacks into the scheme runtime and not allow mixed stack frames
2016-11-02T18:59:01Z jcowan: Most impls don't worry about call/cc that crosses C/Scheme boundaries, if that's what you mean.
2016-11-02T18:59:14Z jonaslund: yeah
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2016-11-02T18:59:40Z jonaslund: jcowan: i'm doing a jit compilation experiment
2016-11-02T18:59:56Z jcowan nods
2016-11-02T18:59:58Z jonaslund: jcowan: the idea is that if call/cc occurs i move all active frames to the heap
2016-11-02T19:00:13Z jcowan: If you control the stack, that's fine.
2016-11-02T19:00:17Z jonaslund: yup
2016-11-02T19:00:58Z jonaslund: and unless i've mess up somewhere every return address should be on a "operation" boundary
2016-11-02T19:01:28Z jonaslund: so i just continue compiling from that operation when the heap call version returns with new stack info
2016-11-02T19:01:30Z jcowan: http://lampwww.epfl.ch/teaching/archive/advanced_compiler/2006/assignments/part5/continuations.pdf is totes worth reading
2016-11-02T19:01:31Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/7TOxZYUnnY
2016-11-02T19:03:32Z jcowan: also http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/stack.pdf which is cited from the previous article and gives details on Chez's strategy
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2016-11-02T21:17:17Z MoronicAcid: Is a define clause within a let clause valid?
2016-11-02T21:18:30Z jcowan: MoronicAcid: Yes
2016-11-02T21:18:54Z MoronicAcid: jcowan: Guile does not seem to like it.
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2016-11-02T21:19:44Z MoronicAcid: " no expressions in body in form (let ((foo (quote foo))) (define (bar x) x))"
2016-11-02T21:20:13Z Riastradh: MoronicAcid: You need an expression after the definition too.
2016-11-02T21:21:09Z MoronicAcid: Riastradh: Okay.
2016-11-02T21:30:04Z Riastradh: The definition provides a local binding of a name within the LET, just like another LET clause, except the definition can be recursive.
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2016-11-02T21:34:12Z jcowan: If there are multiple definitions, they can have forward references.
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2016-11-03T06:31:47Z ecraven: does BEGIN not provide a proper define context like LET does?
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2016-11-03T08:33:33Z webshinra: ecraven, what?
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2016-11-03T08:38:52Z ecraven: webshinra: is (begin (define (add1 x) (+ x 1)) (add1 3)) valid?
2016-11-03T08:39:12Z ecraven: (not in a top-level context)
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2016-11-03T08:39:56Z webshinra: well, I would said yes
2016-11-03T08:40:23Z webshinra: but does not testing it being faster than asking ?
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2016-11-03T08:42:23Z ecraven: webshinra: I did test it under mit scheme, which complains
2016-11-03T08:42:39Z ecraven: thus I wanted to ask whether this standard behaviour, or just an idiosynchrasy
2016-11-03T08:43:22Z ecraven: guile complains too
2016-11-03T08:43:32Z ecraven: chicken works
2016-11-03T08:43:38Z ecraven: (if #t (begin (define x 3) x) 5) is what I tried
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2016-11-03T08:45:22Z webshinra: gosh don't complain
2016-11-03T08:46:10Z webshinra: but chibi does.
2016-11-03T08:46:43Z webshinra: well, I'll let more experimented people answer you.
2016-11-03T08:47:31Z webshinra: I would said, as a general concideration that alterning the toplevel inside a nasty  expression should be looked at with defiance
2016-11-03T08:48:32Z ecraven: webshinra: that is not what is happening at all
2016-11-03T08:48:34Z ecraven: this isn't CL
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2016-11-03T08:50:03Z webshinra: well, trying to use nested define inside begin instead of let don't seem a good idea either
2016-11-03T08:51:22Z ecraven: webshinra: why? why would I not want local defines in a begin block, like inside a let?
2016-11-03T08:53:20Z webshinra: because that's the semantic defference between them?
2016-11-03T08:54:15Z webshinra: dif*
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2016-11-03T08:56:47Z webshinra: Definitions can occur at the beginning of a hbodyi (that
2016-11-03T08:56:47Z webshinra: is, the body of a lambda, let, let*, letrec, letrec*,
2016-11-03T08:56:47Z webshinra: let-values, let*-values, let-syntax, letrec-syntax,
2016-11-03T08:56:47Z webshinra: parameterize, guard, or case-lambda). Note that such a
2016-11-03T08:56:47Z webshinra: body might not be apparent until after expansion of other
2016-11-03T08:56:47Z webshinra: syntax. Such definitions are known as internal definitions
2016-11-03T08:56:49Z webshinra: as opposed to the global definitions described above.
2016-11-03T08:57:12Z webshinra: So having emmebeded define seems invalid in R7RS
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2016-11-03T09:07:07Z webshinra: to be honnest ecraven I can't see the interest of «local define» when you can have let-like structure?
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2016-11-03T10:15:38Z ecraven: webshinra: it has just hit me a few times when putting local define in code that macro-expands into a BEGIN (and thus breaks)
2016-11-03T10:15:55Z ecraven: maybe BEGIN should macro-expand to (let () ....) :p
2016-11-03T10:16:27Z ecraven: also, I'm not sure I see the *reason* for disallowing it
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2016-11-03T16:38:26Z jcowan: ecraven: There are two types of begin.  The type that is an expression does not allow definitions, and can be replaced by (let () ...), which does.
2016-11-03T16:39:09Z jcowan: The other type happens when you are in a context that allows definitions already (the top level or a block), and then you can wrap definitions possibly followed by expressions in begin, which is pure syntax noise and disappears.
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2016-11-03T17:50:13Z ecraven: jcowan: which one is (if #t (begin (define x 3) x) 5)? isn't that the former?
2016-11-03T17:50:27Z ecraven: ah, sorry, misread your statement
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2016-11-03T17:50:42Z ecraven: jcowan: any particular reason *why* it doesn't allow definitions, if it can be replaced with (let () ...) anyway?
2016-11-03T17:51:44Z jcowan shrugs
2016-11-03T17:51:50Z jcowan: Hysterical raisins, I suppose
2016-11-03T17:54:12Z jcowan: Algol 60 had both "compound statements" (no declarations) and "blocks" (with declarations), both wrapped in begin ... end keywords.
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2016-11-03T19:54:50Z taylan: hmm, might be interesting to specify that expression-begin is equivalent to (let () ...)
2016-11-03T19:55:45Z taylan: OTOH it might cause a lot of confusion b/c half the time 'begin' "leaks" its local defs and other times doesn't.
2016-11-03T19:56:15Z taylan: (that'd be under the new spec, that is)
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2016-11-03T20:39:40Z jcowan: IMO the non-expression begin should be something different, like wrap.
2016-11-03T20:39:43Z jcowan: Too late now.
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2016-11-03T21:31:27Z ecraven: jcowan: you mean it should be called "wrap" instead of "begin"?
2016-11-03T21:31:41Z jcowan: ecraven: yes
2016-11-03T21:32:04Z Riastradh: You could spell it `let()' and it would be the same number of characters!
2016-11-03T21:33:06Z jcowan: I don't mean the let() version, I mean the version of begin that encapsulates definitions or definitions+expressions.
2016-11-03T21:33:22Z jcowan: Calling that wrap.
2016-11-03T21:34:24Z Riastradh: The other day I was trying to tell Arthur Gleckler about the zany ideas I've been sending your way here on #scheme for R7RS, but I couldn't remember any of them.
2016-11-03T21:35:54Z Riastradh: Can you remember any of them?
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2016-11-03T21:39:07Z jcowan: Alas, no.  I can't remember anything that isn't recorded in writing in an easily findable place.
2016-11-03T21:39:25Z jcowan: Best bet tends to be email to cowan@ccil.org, because there's a systematic archive back to 1999.
2016-11-03T21:39:52Z jcowan: I have logs for IRC, but I'm not always able to recover them, esp. from work machines like this one.
2016-11-03T21:41:01Z gnomon: On the topic of IRC logs, I just happen to have put a little bit of work into building up a functional IRC log grepper based on codesearch.
2016-11-03T21:41:09Z Riastradh: There are also logs at <http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/scheme/>.
2016-11-03T21:41:17Z jcowan nods
2016-11-03T21:41:42Z gnomon: Riastradh, sadly there's a nasty little bot-stopper in place that makes grabbing the tunes logs rather difficult.
2016-11-03T21:41:48Z Riastradh: Hmm, I see.
2016-11-03T21:42:08Z jcowan: If I knew something specific, I'd google for it (or does the bot-stopper block Google, too?)
2016-11-03T21:42:38Z gnomon: jcowan, good question, I'm not sure.
2016-11-03T21:42:44Z jcowan: but searching for "crazy idea" isn't likely to get anywhere.
2016-11-03T21:43:24Z gnomon: jcowan, the bot blocker may not block the googlebot, but /robots.txt sure does.
2016-11-03T21:43:40Z jcowan nods again
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2016-11-03T21:55:34Z qu1j0t3 goes around behind jcowan and discovers he's just a maquette stuck on a spring
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2016-11-03T22:16:50Z Riastradh: Ah, there's one: I suggested introducing tensor contraction into the array library.
2016-11-03T22:23:41Z Riastradh: I'm sure there were others but I can't find them now.
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2016-11-03T22:30:07Z jcowan: Yes, I remember that now that you mention it.  I have no objection to it, but I'm not competent to do it myself.  As it turns out, I did a lot of work on arrays, but the new array SRFI is 122, which is Brad Lucier's, not mine.
2016-11-03T22:34:52Z Riastradh: Does R7RS have hexadecimal floating-point notation yet?
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2016-11-03T23:14:07Z Riastradh: Ah, there's another one: constant-time bignum arithmetic, so one can write crypto in Scheme!
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2016-11-03T23:27:04Z pierpa: how would that work?
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2016-11-03T23:31:39Z Riastradh: `Constant-time' here means that the time of some operation is a function only of the maximum magnitude of its inputs, if you have some such maximum, e.g. 2^32 - 1 or 2^256 - 1 or 2^4096 - 1.
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2016-11-03T23:38:52Z pierpa: ah! ok. ty.
2016-11-03T23:40:30Z pierpa: a very specialistic application, though.
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2016-11-04T11:29:25Z wispy: where is the emacs init.el for lispbox..i'd like to add scheme to the start
2016-11-04T11:30:05Z wispy: been looking for it but not in the lispbox folder. i have other emacs separate from lispbox
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2016-11-05T00:19:08Z Riastradh: Are empty vectors always supposed to be eqv?
2016-11-05T00:19:17Z Riastradh: Too lazy to pull up the relevant clause in the R5RS or anything.
2016-11-05T00:21:00Z Riastradh: (let ((u (vector)) (v (vector))) (list u v (eq? u v) (eqv? u v) (eqv-hash u) (eqv-hash v) (= (eqv-hash u) (eqv-hash v))))
2016-11-05T00:21:03Z Riastradh: ;Value 20: (#() #() #f #t 50128200 50128192 #f)
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2016-11-05T00:25:16Z cromachina: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_sec_6.1
2016-11-05T00:25:16Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/yHsl2JGvQV
2016-11-05T00:25:44Z Riastradh: So unspecified.
2016-11-05T00:25:49Z Riastradh: Pfeh.
2016-11-05T00:26:33Z cromachina: use equal? instead :^)
2016-11-05T00:27:36Z Riastradh: No, need the opposite.  Will use EQ? instead.
2016-11-05T00:27:50Z Riastradh: This is a mistake that Chris added back in 1987, apparently!
2016-11-05T00:29:34Z Riastradh: And failed to reflect back in 1993 when he added eqv hash tables.
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2016-11-05T15:59:04Z Riastradh: jcowan: Are empty vectors supposed to be eqv in the R7RS?
2016-11-05T15:59:07Z Riastradh: foof`: ?
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2016-11-05T18:22:35Z ecraven: Riastradh: page 30 says "same location" vectors are eqv?, "distinct location" vectors are not eqv?
2016-11-05T18:24:02Z ecraven: page 31 says eq? and eqv? are guaranteed to have the same behaviour on non-empty strings, vectors, and bytevectors (assuming that means non-empty vectors and non-empty bytevectors)
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2016-11-06T07:34:18Z wlop: can someone explain what the terms lexical closure and closure mean? I understand lexical(static) scope and dynamic scope, but can't seem to understand closure...
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2016-11-06T10:13:28Z amz3: héllo #scheme and not #schemers because that channel doesn't exist :)
2016-11-06T10:13:33Z amz3: I have two questions
2016-11-06T10:13:43Z amz3: 1) do you know any programming competition in scheme?
2016-11-06T10:15:42Z wasamasa: lisp game jam will be soon
2016-11-06T10:15:50Z wasamasa: you are free to use any lisp dialect, including scheme
2016-11-06T10:16:09Z wasamasa: here's the website for the last one: https://itch.io/jam/spring-2016-lisp-game-jam
2016-11-06T10:19:26Z amz3: 2) we need to take back #scheme or #schemers on twitter because it's filled with garbage or find another hashtag to promote stuff on twitter (and other social network, even tho on diaspora it's not really an issue since there isn't much activity on those channels)
2016-11-06T10:19:44Z amz3: ah ok so there is only lisp game jam
2016-11-06T10:21:18Z wasamasa: that's the only lisp competition I'm aware of
2016-11-06T10:21:32Z wasamasa: there could be more, but it takes effort to hold them regularly
2016-11-06T10:21:40Z muelleme: you can use scheme in google codejam
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2016-11-06T10:23:02Z wasamasa: ugh: https://twitter.com/schemers
2016-11-06T10:23:26Z wasamasa: and @scheme is suspended
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2016-11-06T10:31:21Z amz3: wasamasa: what do you mean it takes effort to hold them regularly?
2016-11-06T10:32:29Z amz3: I am thinking about running such a competition, something like django dash but for all schemes
2016-11-06T10:32:37Z amz3: cf. https://twitter.com/djangodash their website is down
2016-11-06T10:32:51Z wasamasa: you need to advertise your existence, pull people in, organize it, etc.
2016-11-06T10:33:02Z wasamasa: also, consider what your target group is
2016-11-06T10:33:10Z amz3: and the competition will not be limited to web things
2016-11-06T10:33:21Z wasamasa: people splittered across way too many implementations who'd rather write their own one-off library to do a thing
2016-11-06T10:33:57Z amz3: that would be the point of such a competition
2016-11-06T10:33:59Z wasamasa: some people are using scheme because they're interested in PLT, not to write applications :P
2016-11-06T10:34:16Z amz3: the goal is to promote scheme a good language for building stuff
2016-11-06T10:34:41Z amz3: to get started there will be only one track where people will be able to submit whatever they created during the sprint
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2016-11-06T10:35:27Z amz3: as good language for building stuff
2016-11-06T10:35:46Z amz3: I even have an idea for the prize
2016-11-06T10:37:39Z amz3: I would need to create a jury also
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2016-11-06T10:45:54Z wasamasa: how many people are you expecting for the competition?
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2016-11-06T11:08:38Z amz3: what about ten?
2016-11-06T11:09:24Z wasamasa: expect to advertise your plan to ~100 schemers then :P
2016-11-06T11:09:59Z amz3: they are already more than 100 schemers here :)
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2016-11-06T11:10:29Z wasamasa: mostly lurkers
2016-11-06T11:10:39Z wasamasa: like on nearly every IRC channels
2016-11-06T11:11:12Z amz3: #nlp channel is so boring because of that
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2016-11-06T12:47:33Z foof`: Riastradh: unspecified
2016-11-06T12:50:02Z foof`: the example (eqv? '#() '#()) => <unspecified> is given in both R5RS and R7RS
2016-11-06T12:55:20Z foof`: the spec for `vector' says it returns a "newly allocated vector," but the discussion of the storage model in 3.4 specifically gives license for this case:
2016-11-06T12:55:22Z foof`: "It is also understood that empty strings, empty vectors, and empty bytevectors, which contain no locations, may or may not be newly allocated."
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2016-11-07T17:43:11Z rain1: any scope sets experts?
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2016-11-07T18:28:19Z jcowan: rain1: Might have better luck at #racket.
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2016-11-07T22:30:02Z matheusmoreira: are delimited continuations more general than call/cc? is there a reason to have both?
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2016-11-07T22:31:30Z jcowan: an undelimited continuation (aka call/cc) is basically a delimited continuation whose mark is at the top of the stack, so given that you can implement call/cc using dc.
2016-11-07T22:31:37Z gnomon: matheusmoreira, delimited continuations are less general than CALL/CC, and those limitations make them easier to implement and easier to reason about.  There is a reason to have both.
2016-11-07T22:31:47Z jcowan: You can also (with storage costs) implement DC using CC.
2016-11-07T22:35:16Z jim: queen-tonic, you are of course welcome to ask one
2016-11-07T22:35:41Z matheusmoreira: jcowan: I was just imagining something among those lines. I thought about an implementation where if call/cc, it looks for a mark in the stack, and stops at the top if it finds none...
2016-11-07T22:36:28Z matheusmoreira: So delimited continuations are less general than undelimited, but the former can be implemented on top of the latter?
2016-11-07T22:37:28Z matheusmoreira: I definitely agree with gnomon that delimited continuations were much, much easier to understand, and after I understood them I kind of grokked undelimited too
2016-11-07T22:41:33Z jcowan: If you use the copy-the-stack mental model (which is not necessarily how your favorite Scheme does it),
2016-11-07T22:41:54Z jcowan: then calling call/cc copies the whole stack and stashes it as something you can call (but there is no way back)
2016-11-07T22:42:29Z jcowan: whereas calling shift deletes the whole stack up to the last reset and stashes it as something you can call and return from.
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2016-11-07T22:45:16Z matheusmoreira: if the last reset was at the beginning of the program, do they behave equivalently?
2016-11-07T22:45:52Z matheusmoreira: something such as a source file containing: (reset (begin <expressions> (shift k 'value)))
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2016-11-07T22:46:40Z matheusmoreira: I mean, there's no way to return from the top of the stack
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2016-11-07T22:52:15Z jcowan: matheusmoreira: In essence yes.
2016-11-07T22:52:51Z jcowan: You can get some weird behavior in the REPL when invoking call/cc at the top level: the continuation may wind up being somewhere in the REPL code, depending on how the REPL is implemented.
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2016-11-07T23:31:14Z cojy: gnomon: that was a lie delimited continuations are not less general and call/cc can be implemented in them
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2016-11-07T23:48:46Z rain1: when is (letrec ((<name> <thing>) ..) ..) used with thing not being lambda?
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2016-11-07T23:50:40Z ski: promises, streams
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2016-11-07T23:53:45Z rain1: hm a promise isn't that just (lambda () ?)
2016-11-07T23:53:55Z rain1: i guess it could be a macro expanding into lambda
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2016-11-08T00:01:37Z ski: a promise could be its own thing
2016-11-08T00:02:34Z rain1: ah okay
2016-11-08T00:02:48Z rain1: i jst imagine everything comes back to lambdas
2016-11-08T00:03:05Z rain1: so in that world i guess it's not a restriction to limit letrec to lambda
2016-11-08T00:03:45Z ski: iirc, Racket allows you to construct cyclic values as well, though perhaps that was with a variant of `letrec' ..
2016-11-08T00:04:41Z ski: .. i mean like cyclic lists, not all cycles indirected via a delayed form like a `lambda' or `delay' or ..
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2016-11-08T00:12:40Z matheusmoreira: does scheme support asynchronous programming?
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2016-11-08T00:14:59Z cojy: matheusmoreira: yes scheme is the original asynchronous programming language
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2016-11-08T00:45:13Z matheusmoreira: how so?
2016-11-08T00:46:04Z matheusmoreira: I ask because I'm studying asynchronous programming patterns and I'd love to see how scheme approached that problem
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2016-11-08T00:55:57Z cojy: matheusmoreira: it was created studying the actor model which encompasses that
2016-11-08T00:56:35Z cojy: the whole point of closures and then call/cc is giving you an way to make something that can be resumed when the asynchronous signal comes in
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2016-11-08T00:57:42Z cojy: thats why any time you see async stuff in any programming language you will see them either being provided lambda callbacks
2016-11-08T00:57:55Z cojy: or things like async/await or coroutines which are single-shot continuations
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2016-11-08T01:23:55Z matheusmoreira: indeed in C# async/await are explicitly referred to as continuations
2016-11-08T01:24:00Z matheusmoreira: I never realized this
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2016-11-09T03:12:00Z Carborane: hiya
2016-11-09T03:12:33Z Carborane: Does MIT scheme have arbitrary precision built in? What about Racket?
2016-11-09T03:15:13Z asumu: Carborane: Racket does.
2016-11-09T03:15:58Z asumu: (it has bignums and bigfloats---arbitrary precision floats)
2016-11-09T03:16:38Z Carborane: Thanks. Which flavor would you recommend for doing Project Euler problems?
2016-11-09T03:19:16Z pierpa: both are good. I used Racket for many Project Euler problems with good results.
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2016-11-09T03:19:40Z pierpa: (this does not mean that MIT Scheme would not have been as good)
2016-11-09T03:21:11Z Carborane: It seems like Racket has a richer ecosystem/libraries than MIT Scheme. Would you say that's accurate?
2016-11-09T03:26:34Z pierpa: it's many many years since last time I used MIT so, I can't say for sure. Racket comes with the kitchen sink bundled.
2016-11-09T03:26:42Z Carborane: Nice.
2016-11-09T03:26:58Z Carborane: I'll probably try Racket for sure. thanks
2016-11-09T03:27:12Z pierpa: ;)
2016-11-09T03:27:14Z Carborane: >probably
2016-11-09T03:27:17Z Carborane: >for sure
2016-11-09T03:27:30Z Carborane: :^)
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2016-11-09T06:39:16Z ecraven: Carborane: MIT/GNU Scheme has bignums, but no bigfloats, I think
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2016-11-09T16:34:24Z jcowan: hey ho
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2016-11-09T16:45:17Z gnomon: jcowan, hidely-ho, neighbour.
2016-11-09T16:47:55Z jcowan: Thanks.
2016-11-09T16:48:07Z jcowan: I have Irish citizenship, but my family does not
2016-11-09T16:48:24Z jcowan: Still, we survived Andrew Jackson, murderer and genocide
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2016-11-09T16:51:21Z gnomon: jcowan, take care, friend.
2016-11-09T16:51:39Z jcowan: I will.
2016-11-09T16:52:25Z gnomon: Can I do anything to help?  Would you like some cat pictures?
2016-11-09T16:53:07Z qu1j0t3 rummages, comes up with https://twitter.com/ksheely/status/796062847251791873
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2016-11-09T17:36:23Z jcowan: gnomon: Thanks.  Actually my cat is a Trump supporter
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2016-11-09T17:45:19Z qu1j0t3: how do you know?
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2016-11-09T18:08:45Z jcowan: qu1j0t3: Her general attitude.  "I'm a winner and you are all losers who only exist to make me win even more."
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2016-11-09T18:10:16Z pierpa: then all cats are Trump supporters!
2016-11-09T18:13:10Z gnomon: jcowan_, egads.
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2016-11-09T19:45:56Z amz3: hey :)
2016-11-09T19:46:12Z ecraven: hey :)
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2016-11-09T19:54:39Z amz3: I made a small website for my frontend framework https://forward.frama.io/website/
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2016-11-09T20:31:47Z amz3: my little frontend framework
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2016-11-09T21:26:55Z n_blownapart: hello basic question: the h function uses compose on two functions. in compose, (x) is its own function. Is there another way to write that on lines 13-15 ?  https://www.refheap.com/123756
2016-11-09T21:28:44Z taylan: n_blownapart: for a two-arguments compose function that's pretty much the most straightforward way to do it I'd say
2016-11-09T21:29:33Z n_blownapart: i.e. I'm confused because x is not written as a parameter, but as , I believe, a higher order function, correct taylan ?
2016-11-09T21:31:05Z taylan: n_blownapart: x is a parameter there.  anything that ... (lambda (goes here) ...) is a parameter.
2016-11-09T21:32:32Z taylan: so you define 'compose' to be a function of two parameters, (a b), which when executed returns a function of one parameter, (x), which when executed applies b to x and a to the result of b
2016-11-09T21:32:48Z taylan: does that make sense?
2016-11-09T21:32:55Z n_blownapart: thanks taylan. one moment please
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2016-11-09T21:36:56Z n_blownapart: also x is technically a higher order function, just in the sense that it is its own lambda. is that incorrect taylan  ?
2016-11-09T21:37:25Z n_blownapart: in the sense that it is being passed around and is defined itself.
2016-11-09T21:37:29Z gwatt: that is incorrect.
2016-11-09T21:37:34Z gwatt: x is a parameter
2016-11-09T21:37:48Z gwatt: (lambda (x) (a (b x))) is a higher order function
2016-11-09T21:37:50Z taylan: n_blownapart: x is a parameter, not a function.  the only higher order function within the compose definition is the (lambda (a b) ...) because it takes functions as arguments
2016-11-09T21:38:12Z taylan: gwatt: er, unless my terminology is wrong, I thought the HOF is the one that takes functions as arguments, not applies them
2016-11-09T21:38:48Z gwatt: taylan: according to the wikipeds, you are correct. (lambda (x) (a (b x))) is merely a closure
2016-11-09T21:38:50Z taylan: I'd say, (lambda (x) ...) is just a closure returned by the higher order function
2016-11-09T21:38:57Z taylan: right
2016-11-09T21:39:32Z n_blownapart: one sec processing that...
2016-11-09T21:40:24Z taylan: n_blownapart: in the expression (lambda (foo) ...), 'foo' is not the name of the function being defined, just the name of the parameter the function takes.  the function has no name, unless it's bound to an identifier like in (define compose (lambda ...))
2016-11-09T21:41:24Z n_blownapart: right so you're defining a parameter which cannot take functions itself because its just a single variable.
2016-11-09T21:41:31Z n_blownapart: with (x)
2016-11-09T21:42:25Z taylan: saying "defining a parameter" doesn't make much sense.  parameters are one part of a function definition.  the correct way to say it would be "defining a function taking parameters ..."
2016-11-09T21:43:07Z taylan: the function (lambda (x) ...) *could* also take functions for the value of 'x', but it doesn't have to.  it could take any type of argument.
2016-11-09T21:43:09Z n_blownapart: ok still not a higher order function in the case of (lambda (x)
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2016-11-09T21:44:12Z taylan: yeah, it's not defined so that it specifically takes other functions as arguments; it only deals with the argument it takes (which is put into the parameter 'x') as a generic value, passing it on to a different function.  so it's not a higher-order function.
2016-11-09T21:45:12Z taylan: on the other hand (lambda (a b) ...) is specifically defined in such a way that the arguments for the 'a' and 'b' parameters *must* be functions, because within the body there appears the form (a (b ...)) meaning both a and b are applied as functions at some point
2016-11-09T21:45:43Z taylan: (if scheme had a static type system, all this would be more obvious because the type signature would have to say which parameters are functions and which are not)
2016-11-09T21:45:55Z n_blownapart: ok, thanks. so where gwatt says " you're right (lambda (x) (a (b x))) is merely a closure " , if you put (lambda (x) at the beginning, the meaning isn't changed.
2016-11-09T21:46:00Z taylan: (since it doesn't have static types, we deduce it from the body of the function whether it's higher-order or not)
2016-11-09T21:46:35Z taylan: n_blownapart: you mean if the whole thing is wrapped in another (lambda (x) ...) ?  that wouldn't make it higher-order either, yeah.
2016-11-09T21:47:17Z taylan: well, I'm not 100% sure about that actually, because that would be a function that *returns* another function, though it doesn't *take* other functions as arguments...
2016-11-09T21:47:43Z taylan: I'm not sure if functions that don't take other functions as arguments, but do return another function as a value, also count as "higher order functions".  a matter of semantics...
2016-11-09T21:48:15Z gwatt: I think any function that takes a function as a parameter or returns a function is higher order
2016-11-09T21:48:18Z taylan: according to Wikipedia, that also makes a function higher-order, but then again it says [disputed -- discuss] :-)  so it seems there's no consensus on that.
2016-11-09T21:48:49Z n_blownapart: yikes
2016-11-09T21:49:16Z taylan: here's the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Higher-order_function#Curried_functions_higher_order
2016-11-09T21:49:16Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/IiXM4GpYZ6
2016-11-09T21:49:36Z n_blownapart: btw I believe this problem is leading to a way to do it with currying.
2016-11-09T21:49:49Z n_blownapart: leading meaning, in a little tutorial.
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2016-11-09T21:50:25Z n_blownapart: taylan:  oh I see that is the subject of the article !
2016-11-09T21:53:42Z n_blownapart: taylan gwatt thanks kindly.
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2016-11-09T22:48:57Z n_blownapart: if you're still interested, I wrote another one where g takes two arguments. https://www.refheap.com/123759  I have a question here ...
2016-11-09T22:49:09Z Carborane:  /SET use_status_window OFF
2016-11-09T22:49:23Z Carborane: n-NEVERMIND
2016-11-09T22:49:25Z Carborane: NEVERMIND THAT
2016-11-09T22:49:28Z Carborane: IRSSI NOOB HERE
2016-11-09T22:49:34Z n_blownapart: taylan: gwatt et al
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2016-11-09T22:50:23Z n_blownapart: how to write this better so that you can pass in the two variables g uses to h ?
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2016-11-09T23:16:04Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: ...you don't need to?
2016-11-09T23:16:45Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: maybe I don't understand the objective. It seems here you've done a neat job of defining a concrete f, g, an HOF to compose them, and an example.
2016-11-09T23:17:42Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: thanks but I don't like how the def of h doesn't show two parameters. if I add them like this : ...
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2016-11-09T23:18:47Z qu1j0t3: well, it's very easy to change h to take parameters. (define (h a b) ((compose f g) a b))
2016-11-09T23:20:51Z n_blownapart: oh yeah that's how you do it. thanks I had it slightly wrong.
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2016-11-09T23:21:36Z qu1j0t3: maybe you'd see it if you broke it into: 1) how to make h take parameters   then 2) how to apply the result of compose to them
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2016-11-09T23:28:35Z n_blownapart: yeah in a way I like not using ((compose f g) a b)) , but I think for clarity the number of args needed to have it work should be clear in function h. do you agree qu1j0t3
2016-11-09T23:28:37Z n_blownapart: ?
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2016-11-10T10:04:28Z ecraven: Riastradh: MIT/GNU Scheme: should (make-decoded-time 0 0 0 1 1 1900) work? I get errors from mktime: The primitive encode-time, while executing the mktime system call, received the error: No such file or directory.
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2016-11-10T10:06:30Z ecraven: ah, the errors are in decoded-time->universal-time, not make-decoded-time
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2016-11-10T10:20:12Z ecraven: I don't see why  (decoded-time->universal-time (make-decoded-time 0 0 0 1 1 1920)) doesn't work :-/
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2016-11-10T14:39:44Z Riastradh: ecraven: Depends on your libc.  Try writing a little C program that calls mktime with the same parameters and see what you get.
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2016-11-10T14:55:11Z ecraven: Riastradh: that works
2016-11-10T14:55:36Z ecraven: I'll try to instrument the microcode later, to see the exact parameters that are passed :-/
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2016-11-11T15:32:19Z safinaskar: how to express "run foo, then run bar"?
2016-11-11T15:32:50Z safinaskar: for example, (if (= 1 1) (baz) <...>)
2016-11-11T15:33:03Z safinaskar: i want to insert to <...> this: run (foo), then (bar)
2016-11-11T15:33:04Z wasamasa: (begin ...)
2016-11-11T15:33:13Z safinaskar: wasamasa: thanks
2016-11-11T15:33:35Z wasamasa: many special forms have an implicit begin
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2016-11-11T20:57:21Z rain1: hello
2016-11-11T20:57:43Z rain1: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/chez-scheme/ccXcY9TLXMQ
2016-11-11T20:57:45Z rain1: new code release
2016-11-11T20:57:56Z rain1:  A pattern match macro for chez-scheme
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2016-11-11T23:13:50Z ecraven: that's not nice, (integer? 3.) returns #t on mit-scheme, but some functions will choke on being passed a non-integer integer :-/
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2016-11-12T00:28:35Z aeth: ecraven: Does mit-scheme have an "exact?" procedure?
2016-11-12T00:29:33Z aeth: ecraven: I think you want "(and (exact? n) (integer? n))" instead of "integer?"
2016-11-12T00:31:03Z aeth: CL's integerp function behaves like you expect, but Scheme's (at least r7rs Scheme's) procedures are a bit higher level, more mathematical than about types. They don't map 1:1
2016-11-12T00:31:25Z dpk: exact-integer?
2016-11-12T00:31:26Z aeth: (I wrote about half of a Scheme in Common Lisp. The number stuff was *not* as easy as it looked because of slight mismatches like this.)
2016-11-12T00:31:42Z aeth: dpk: you're right, there is an exact-integer?
2016-11-12T00:31:47Z dpk: is the procedure you want
2016-11-12T00:33:28Z aeth: my bad, I was literally looking at my big file of macros that included a define-scheme-predicate (exact-integer? z)
2016-11-12T00:33:33Z aeth: I am not sure how I missed that
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2016-11-12T00:36:49Z aeth: Oh, I missed that because I wrote my code before I looked at the Scheme language...
2016-11-12T00:37:48Z gwatt: is exact-integer? part of rnrs?
2016-11-12T00:39:00Z aeth: It is. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be in my code.
2016-11-12T00:39:05Z aeth: It looks like it is just r7rs, though
2016-11-12T00:39:18Z aeth: It's not here: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2016-11-12T00:46:37Z aeth: Is there a way to get geiser to run on a Scheme that's not a foo in geiser/scheme/foo/geiser?
2016-11-12T00:47:44Z jao: aeth, no.  geiser needs the scheme to collaborate and give it most of the information it handles.
2016-11-12T00:48:41Z jao: so one has to write supporting code, which is always unportable
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2016-11-12T00:56:30Z aeth: jao: Yes, I mean, is there a way to write the supporting code independent of geiser and then use geiser?
2016-11-12T00:57:49Z jao: aeth, one also typically needs a bit of elisp to glue it all together, for things like initialisation, loading the code, launching the scheme
2016-11-12T00:58:41Z jao: aeth, that part is usually almost trivial, but needs to be there... schemes are very idiosyncratic and i didn't want to force a rigid interface
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2016-11-12T01:04:41Z aeth: What I have is about 1/3 to 1/2 of an r7rs scheme. I want to be able to run it in geiser (and then implement the rest of the Scheme by repeatedly testing it in geiser) because I want access to a SLIME-like REPL because it's so much more convenient to work with than my current methods of testing.
2016-11-12T01:06:08Z aeth: Obviously I'll have to write the parts of Scheme that geiser uses first, too.
2016-11-12T01:07:05Z rain1: aeth, link?
2016-11-12T01:09:43Z aeth: It's not on the Internet iirc. I guess that means a fire that wiped out my backup drives and my computer would wipe out all traces of the Scheme.
2016-11-12T01:09:54Z rain1: oh
2016-11-12T01:10:46Z cojy: why not post it now?
2016-11-12T01:11:09Z aeth: It's not that impressive, it's written in CL and so it gets a lot for free e.g. GC and the data structures like lists and the various vectors.
2016-11-12T01:11:40Z aeth: It's not like Pseudoscheme, though, because it aims at compliance rather than transpiling.
2016-11-12T01:16:05Z aeth: It's basically only going to be useful for my particular niche of using Scheme as a sandboxed scripting language on top of CL, calling CL libraries from Scheme. I'm not sure who else would have such a niche use case.
2016-11-12T01:18:56Z rain1: do you think there will be a fire?
2016-11-12T01:19:04Z jao: aeth, one would write a r7rs implementation of both sides then, and reuse it
2016-11-12T01:19:40Z ski . o O ( "Would be a shame if something happened to your fine project, here .." )
2016-11-12T01:19:42Z jao: aeth, but r7rs doesn't support like 50 or 60% of geiser's functionality
2016-11-12T01:19:43Z aeth: rain1: No, it's just that it has one point of storage failure, location
2016-11-12T01:20:41Z cojy: but why not post it?
2016-11-12T01:21:11Z aeth: jao: Since it can foreign-call CL, I should be able to cheat and use various CL functions directly until the proper Scheme stuff is written.
2016-11-12T01:22:13Z rain1: well it's good thath you're safe, I know some people in australia whose house burned down during the bush fires
2016-11-12T01:23:11Z aeth: The two points are (1) I get access to tons of CL stuff for almost free from an otherwise toy language and (2) I can ideally write the Scheme runtime so I can sandbox these scripts, so I can use it as a scripting language for my CL game engine
2016-11-12T01:23:23Z rain1: aeth, probably the best thing to focus on is knowing your escape route, how to quicjly evacuate with any animales/pets and lastly any important belongings
2016-11-12T01:24:09Z aeth: cojy: Why would I post 1/3 of a Scheme? It has no use in its current state.
2016-11-12T01:24:35Z cojy: so people can read it and see how it works
2016-11-12T01:25:12Z aeth: I still haven't finalized my ideas for the runtime, for stuff like call/cc
2016-11-12T01:25:23Z aeth: And it's not a Scheme until then
2016-11-12T01:25:56Z aeth: Basically, I have the built in functions, but no define
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2016-11-12T01:26:29Z aeth: s/functions/procedures/
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2016-11-12T01:28:53Z aeth: The interesting parts are lambda, call/cc, define, define-syntax, etc.
2016-11-12T01:29:13Z aeth: s/interesting parts/interesting parts of a Scheme/
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2016-11-12T01:32:00Z ski: tail calls
2016-11-12T01:32:12Z aeth: tail calls are trivial
2016-11-12T01:32:20Z rain1: hey ski!
2016-11-12T01:32:29Z rain1: I released my patten matcher, dunno if you saw!
2016-11-12T01:32:37Z aeth: maybe the rest is trivial too, but if it is, I haven't found it
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2016-11-12T01:34:28Z ski: rain1 : have we talked before ?
2016-11-12T01:34:53Z rain1: I think so!
2016-11-12T01:40:10Z noethics: you can't really determine if tail calls are trivial until you've written apply
2016-11-12T01:40:23Z ski doesn't recall it, but doesn't dispute it either
2016-11-12T01:40:26Z noethics: which requires you to have environments
2016-11-12T01:42:05Z noethics: which uh, if you have everything besides environments.. seems like you did it the wrong way around
2016-11-12T01:42:15Z noethics: because i'm not sure where your functions live
2016-11-12T01:42:32Z aeth: noethics: I have a placeholder, but the principle is going to be the same in the final version. Just iteratively run the tail-recursive functions in a trampoline that are wrapped in a thunk until it stops getting thunks
2016-11-12T01:43:15Z aeth: I benchmarked the whole trampoline/thunk thing and it's quite fast as well as quite simple.
2016-11-12T01:44:17Z noethics: it's simple until you have to account for everything else scheme has :)
2016-11-12T01:44:30Z noethics: even then it's still pretty simple, given you've designed everything *properly*
2016-11-12T01:45:31Z cojy: noethics: do you have a scheme compiler posted online?
2016-11-12T01:45:41Z noethics: cojy, not yet
2016-11-12T01:46:14Z aeth: noethics: The only thing afaik that would complicate that is call/cc, which afaik can be expressed "regularly" via continuation passing style.
2016-11-12T01:46:29Z aeth: What's held me up is trying to find a way to compile to CPS.
2016-11-12T01:47:03Z noethics: call/cc itself isn't too bad
2016-11-12T01:47:26Z noethics: and with cl it's pretty easy if you choose to use core.async
2016-11-12T01:47:40Z noethics: i wouldnt but yeah
2016-11-12T01:48:59Z ski . o O ( Danvy & Filinski )
2016-11-12T01:50:17Z aeth: I don't think I'd want to use a library that assumes it's being used with CL code rather than a language built on top of CL.
2016-11-12T01:50:45Z noethics: definitel
2016-11-12T01:50:45Z noethics: y
2016-11-12T01:51:16Z noethics: my biggest pain was actually the reader
2016-11-12T01:51:37Z aeth: I don't have to use actual CL lambdas as the building blocks of Scheme procedures, and probably shouldn't. I just need a way to let CL call Scheme and let Scheme call CL
2016-11-12T01:51:46Z noethics: damn numeric tower
2016-11-12T01:51:50Z aeth: noethics: what language are you writing your Scheme in?
2016-11-12T01:51:56Z noethics: go
2016-11-12T01:52:07Z aeth: ah
2016-11-12T01:52:35Z aeth: See, I get the numeric tower entirely for free afaik. The only issue is that if I do this, I do not get the NaN and inf stuff that r7rs recommends but iirc doesn't require
2016-11-12T01:52:40Z aeth: Because those aren't in CL portably.
2016-11-12T01:53:11Z noethics: lucky i guess
2016-11-12T01:53:24Z noethics: but the inf and nan stuff are pretty big caveats
2016-11-12T01:53:26Z aeth: I do *not* get read for free, though. Unlike Psuedoscheme, I can't just write some reader macros on top of CL. Scheme's syntax has diverged too much from CL for this to be convenient.
2016-11-12T01:53:49Z aeth: noethics: I think what I might do is try to find a way to get nan and inf non-portably in CLs that support it
2016-11-12T01:55:19Z aeth: That's not a priority for now, though. It just means that I can't easily use the compliance tests for r7rs since they assume that optional feature is there.
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2016-11-12T01:58:59Z aeth: e.g. sb-ext:single-float-positive-infinity and sb-ext:double-float-positive-infinity
2016-11-12T01:59:16Z aeth: They're there, in some CLs. Just not exposed, and they always give an exception, which I'd have to find a way to work around
2016-11-12T01:59:30Z aeth: (I mean, when yielded as a result they give an exception)
2016-11-12T02:01:04Z aeth: Alternatively, I might just hardcode it to SBCL and take patches later for other CLs where they support it
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2016-11-12T02:05:47Z aeth: The harder part is the nil vs #f and '() part.
2016-11-12T02:06:47Z rain1: definitely a lot harder than things like tail calls and call/cc
2016-11-12T02:07:08Z aeth: Well the hard part is that it necessitates an ugly hack of some sort
2016-11-12T02:08:27Z aeth: Usually I think that means encoding Scheme false as something like e.g. :false because Scheme doesn't have keywords and so you won't notice from the Scheme side. And then running everything that interoperates through something like e.g. (if nil :false t) or soemthing
2016-11-12T02:09:54Z aeth: The lack of case sensitivity in CL is also a problem with interoperability. Inverting the case probably works the best because CL defaults to upcasing everything with all of its functions in caps while Scheme idiomatically has everything written in case-sensitive lower case.
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2016-11-12T02:11:17Z aeth: And then there needs to be some edge way to handle if someone for some reason wants to use the symbol T in Scheme, especially if t gets inverted to T when stored in CL.
2016-11-12T02:13:11Z aeth: The dozen or more little incompatibilities makes an r7rs that wants to conform a lot uglier than you might think even though a lot of the data structures look like they map 1:1
2016-11-12T02:14:58Z aeth: Strings are tricky. "\n" becomes "n" in CL but stays as "\n" in Scheme.
2016-11-12T02:19:39Z aeth: So strings need to be read and printed specially because "\n" needs to store a newline but show "\n" at the REPL, and "\t" with tab, etc.
2016-11-12T02:21:12Z aeth: I guess that's why I haven't uploaded it yet. Lots and lots and lots of edge cases.
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2016-11-12T02:51:58Z aeth: Hmm, well I just solved my number problem by talking about it outloud here... I'll just only use nan and +/- inf if it's running on SBCL, and port it to other supported CLs later. And seeing the internal representation of "\n" etc strings fixed that problem. The escapes really are just a fancy way of printing the actual characters (e.g. "\t" is string-length 1 because it's really just a tab char)
2016-11-12T02:52:11Z aeth: Maybe I should have complained on IRC 8 months ago
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2016-11-12T16:14:07Z YottaByte: hey guys, I just got a MacBook and I want to set up Scheme on it, specifically MIT/GNU scheme for SICP, should I use Geiser or SLIME? I want a REPL and stuff. Previously I was using DrRackets on Windows
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2016-11-12T16:33:46Z pjb: YottaByte: I install MIT/GNU scheme from https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/ and X11 from https://www.xquartz.org/ and that's it.  MIT/GNU scheme provides edwin, an emacs clone written in scheme that lets  you do things with scheme like emacs does for emacs lisp.
2016-11-12T16:34:20Z pjb: YottaByte: and of course, you can also use MIT/GNU scheme from inferior-lisp in emacs. (or M-x run-scheme).
2016-11-12T16:34:47Z YottaByte: I downloaded the OS X binary from there, but I don't know what to do with it. are you using a mac?
2016-11-12T16:34:51Z pjb: To use slime, you'd have to update the swank backend.
2016-11-12T16:34:57Z pjb: Yes.
2016-11-12T16:35:10Z YottaByte: I got the .dmg or whatever it was, do I just drag into Applications?
2016-11-12T16:36:09Z pjb: If you launch X11, you can type in a X terminal: open '/Applications/MIT:GNU Scheme.app' # and it will open in an X11 window.
2016-11-12T16:36:21Z pjb: Double-click the .dmg; it'll open a virtual disk.
2016-11-12T16:36:28Z pjb: dmg = Disk iMaGe
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2016-11-12T16:37:11Z pjb: Then either you have an installer .pkg in the virtual disk (open it to start the installation), or you have directly the application bundle, .app, that you just copy in /Applications.
2016-11-12T16:37:56Z YottaByte: yeah, it's a .app
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2016-11-12T16:42:02Z pjb: YottaByte: did you already have X11.app or Xquartz.app ?
2016-11-12T16:42:28Z YottaByte: nope, but I just installed it from xquarts.org and started xterm
2016-11-12T16:43:24Z pjb: Actually, double-click on /Applications/MIT:GNU Scheme.app will open the window in X11 automatically, so you don't even need to go thru the xterm.
2016-11-12T16:44:10Z YottaByte: when I try to click that app, it says "MIT/GNU Scheme can't be oepened because it is from an unidentifed developer"... let me look in System Preferences
2016-11-12T16:44:29Z pjb: Yes, allow it.
2016-11-12T16:45:01Z YottaByte: k it started edwin
2016-11-12T16:45:23Z YottaByte: can I use this as a scheme repl
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2016-11-12T16:50:09Z pjb: YottaByte: yes. In the *scheme* buffer, you can type expressions and C-x C-e to evaluate them.
2016-11-12T16:50:20Z pjb: (load "file.scm") C-x C-e (fun) C-x C-e etc.
2016-11-12T16:50:54Z pjb: You can type C-x C-e after an expression in any buffer, so you can easily try out new code while you're editing it.
2016-11-12T16:51:03Z pjb: Just like in emacs with emacs-lisp.
2016-11-12T16:51:03Z YottaByte: ah nice, I see now
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2016-11-12T18:20:33Z muelleme: I am trying to understand call/cc but struggling a bit with the examples and explanations in the Dybvig book. Anyone knows a good introduction to that topic?
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2016-11-12T20:04:32Z ilammy: Hi! If you were a Unicode-complying Scheme implementation, would you normalize identifiers? If yes, then what normalization form would you use? What about |escaped identifiers|, -peculiar-ones-, and special numbers like +inf.0?
2016-11-12T20:05:36Z noethics: ilammy, what do you mean by normalize
2016-11-12T20:06:28Z ilammy: I mean those normalization forms like NFC, NFKD, etc.
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2016-11-12T20:07:33Z noethics: that sounds really painful to implement
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2016-11-12T20:08:27Z ilammy: well, normalization algorithms themselves are not that painful
2016-11-12T20:09:02Z ilammy: but they tend to interact badly with um... open-ended identifier syntax of Scheme
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2016-11-12T20:10:11Z ilammy: on one hand it is desired to use them, but on the other hand they can either do a wrong thing
2016-11-12T20:10:31Z ilammy: i'm just curious if anybody ever did something consistent about them
2016-11-12T20:10:36Z noethics: i personally wouldn't bother but i don't really see the benefit either
2016-11-12T20:12:01Z ilammy: as far as i know, most implementations simply treat anything non-ASCII as valid identifier constituent and just match them as binary data
2016-11-12T20:12:56Z noethics: the scheme i'm messing with allows utf8 characters in identifiers
2016-11-12T20:13:05Z noethics: and parses them as such
2016-11-12T20:13:43Z pierpa: ilammy: I would normalize everything on reading and on interning. Either D or C would work. Anything different is just disasters waiting to happen.
2016-11-12T20:14:19Z qu1j0t3: yeah
2016-11-12T20:14:28Z qu1j0t3: oops wroong chat, but happy to add emphasis
2016-11-12T20:14:35Z qu1j0t3 runs emphasis as a service
2016-11-12T20:14:39Z ilammy: :)
2016-11-12T20:16:03Z noethics: matching them naively sounds bad though
2016-11-12T20:16:09Z ilammy: i'm currently reading through the mailing list archive for SRFI 52 to see what thoughts were on this before
2016-11-12T20:16:45Z noethics: i'm not sure how that could ever be to spec
2016-11-12T20:16:55Z ilammy: from one point of view, KC/KD is better that C or D as it folds more differences and may be better for case-insensitive matches
2016-11-12T20:17:35Z ilammy: but then it can normalize an identifier into something that actually parses as a number
2016-11-12T20:17:46Z pierpa: K normalization cancels differences which are not to be canceled.
2016-11-12T20:19:46Z pierpa: well, ok, one can argue also for K normalizations
2016-11-12T20:21:03Z ilammy: yeah, the point is that in some cases K does a good thing with folding
2016-11-12T20:21:23Z ilammy: like with all those mathematical letters which look exactly like normal letters
2016-11-12T20:21:24Z pierpa: yes. It can argued both ways
2016-11-12T20:21:33Z pierpa: *it can be argued
2016-11-12T20:22:57Z pierpa: *any* normalization anyway would be progress
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2016-11-13T15:14:29Z ryoshu: hi
2016-11-13T15:14:34Z ryoshu: common lisp vs scheme?
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2016-11-13T15:22:33Z qu1j0t3: why not both!
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2016-11-13T15:36:13Z wasamasa: ryoshu: you're asking this on #scheme, what could the answer possibly be...
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2016-11-13T15:37:19Z TheLemonMan: neither ?
2016-11-13T15:37:38Z ryoshu: is there a comparison of scheme interpreters?
2016-11-13T15:37:40Z ryoshu: compilers
2016-11-13T15:38:09Z ryoshu: http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations here is something, but I would like to see more details rather that alive/or not
2016-11-13T15:41:22Z wasamasa: well, the major points would be what standard they implement, what extra stuff there is and what the implementation has been made for
2016-11-13T15:42:11Z wasamasa: like, if you want executables, you'll probably not be happy with racket
2016-11-13T15:42:36Z wasamasa: or if you want introspection/debugging, CHICKEN is terrible
2016-11-13T15:43:16Z ryoshu: I see
2016-11-13T15:45:25Z ryoshu: I would like to find an alive implementation, rather powerful for writting/debugging and used on native platform (not .NET, JVM etc) - with slime-like experience
2016-11-13T15:45:51Z wasamasa: common lisp is over there
2016-11-13T15:46:05Z ryoshu: I see
2016-11-13T15:48:11Z wasamasa: "used on native platform" is rather ambigous though
2016-11-13T15:48:16Z wasamasa: what does that even mean?
2016-11-13T15:48:43Z ryoshu: without intermediate runtime platform
2016-11-13T15:49:15Z wasamasa: did you know that your processor's instruction set is an "intermediate runtime platform"?
2016-11-13T15:49:17Z ryoshu: like jvm
2016-11-13T15:49:38Z ryoshu: native for posix
2016-11-13T15:49:44Z ryoshu: or C
2016-11-13T15:52:35Z ryoshu: klisp looks good
2016-11-13T15:53:04Z wasamasa: even SBCL is a weird case under that requirement as it dumps an image with loads of native code inside it
2016-11-13T15:53:22Z wasamasa: lol
2016-11-13T15:53:42Z wasamasa: congratulations, you managed to pick something even more obscure than scheme
2016-11-13T15:54:38Z ryoshu: thanks :)
2016-11-13T15:55:41Z wasamasa: not only that, klisp fails all criteria you've mentioned
2016-11-13T15:56:15Z wasamasa: it's an interpreter, hardly alive, little to no ecosystem and most certainly got no debugger
2016-11-13T15:56:24Z ryoshu: I see
2016-11-13T15:59:19Z ryoshu: and picrin?
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2016-11-13T16:05:10Z ryoshu: hmm gambit is more alive
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2016-11-13T16:18:37Z jmarciano: I would like to append a string to the list
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2016-11-13T16:27:12Z wasamasa: (append ... (list ...))
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2016-11-13T16:31:06Z jmarciano: ohhh thank you
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2016-11-13T16:31:18Z jmarciano: basically I just put the string into (list x)
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2016-11-13T17:39:24Z yotta: hi, I'm trying to set up scheme on macOS. I installed the MIT/GNU Scheme application and that works now when I open it, it starts x11 and Edwin
2016-11-13T17:39:51Z yotta: but I want to use emacs instead of Edwin, and right now when I type "scheme" it tells me: can't find a readable default for option --band. 	searched for file all.com in these directories: 	/usr/local/lib/mit-scheme-x86-64
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2016-11-13T17:42:16Z jmarcian`: sounds interesting...
2016-11-13T17:42:37Z jmarcian`: how about you just try other implementation that works
2016-11-13T17:43:07Z cojy: ryoshu: chez, mit, racket, are all great
2016-11-13T17:43:16Z cojy: chez is fastest, racket is most alive and by far best debugging
2016-11-13T17:43:31Z jmarcian`: I am using Guile https://www.trevisrothwell.com/2015/03/gnu-guile-on-os-x-via-macports/
2016-11-13T17:43:38Z yotta: jmarcian`: I'm trying to work through SICP
2016-11-13T17:43:52Z jmarcian`: don't know that abbreviation
2016-11-13T17:44:24Z jmarcian`: I like readline, completion of functions, I get some speed in REPL
2016-11-13T17:44:43Z yotta: It's a book, Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
2016-11-13T17:44:52Z jmarcian`: aha yes, I see.
2016-11-13T17:45:07Z jmarcian`: OK so you run MIT Scheme and you get REPL?
2016-11-13T17:45:10Z jmarcian`: you get prompt?
2016-11-13T17:45:26Z yotta: well, if I launch the program I do get Edwin and it works. But I want to get it working in emacs
2016-11-13T17:45:57Z yotta: so even trying to get the REPL in the terminal is throwing that error
2016-11-13T17:46:05Z jmarcian`: OK, so you will use Geiser I guess?
2016-11-13T17:46:13Z jmarcian`: maybe the scheme is run with some option...
2016-11-13T17:46:31Z jmarcian`: because when I run mit-scheme --help, I see they mention "bands", but I don't know that terminology yet.
2016-11-13T17:46:38Z yotta: I think I'll use geiser afterwards, yeah. I just want to get the REPL working in the terminal right now
2016-11-13T17:46:55Z jmarcian`: so maybe some script is running scheme, instead of directly?
2016-11-13T17:46:58Z jmarcian`: try directly
2016-11-13T17:47:07Z yotta: Inconsistency detected. even when I type "scheme --help"
2016-11-13T17:47:11Z yotta: hmm do I have to set an alias
2016-11-13T17:47:33Z jmarcian`: I see "moriturus te saluto"... :-)
2016-11-13T17:47:39Z cojy: jmarcian`: how were you starting it when it opens edwin?
2016-11-13T17:47:54Z jmarcian`: I don't open edwin, it looks stupid to me.
2016-11-13T17:48:10Z cojy: how were you running it though?
2016-11-13T17:48:17Z cojy: what did you do
2016-11-13T17:48:18Z jmarcian`: I just type: mit-scheme
2016-11-13T17:48:35Z jmarcian`: but it may have different binary name on others systems, I cannot know.
2016-11-13T17:48:54Z cojy: it shouldnt open up edwin by default hmm
2016-11-13T17:49:11Z jmarcian`: maybe there is some initialization file there?
2016-11-13T17:49:15Z yotta: if you get the application, it does
2016-11-13T17:50:05Z jmarcian`: to open it with edwin, I do: mit-scheme --edit
2016-11-13T17:50:22Z yotta: ok when I go to the application folder and navigate to the Resources directory and run "mit-scheme", the repl does start in the terminal
2016-11-13T17:50:27Z yotta: so I think my "scheme" alias is wrong
2016-11-13T17:50:44Z jmarcian`: that is what I was thinking....
2016-11-13T17:51:20Z jmarcian`: edwin is interesting, but I need to setup fonts, what is this small ...
2016-11-13T17:51:37Z yotta: so the alias should be to that mit-scheme file? is it called an executable?
2016-11-13T17:51:50Z jmarcian`: I don't know why you need alias really
2016-11-13T17:52:04Z jmarcian`: just type mit-scheme or if you need with edwin, mit-scheme --edit
2016-11-13T17:52:29Z cojy: theres also mit-scheme --emacs for inside emacs
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2016-11-13T17:52:59Z jmarcian`: ohhh, interesting
2016-11-13T17:53:23Z cojy: for the band thing you need to set an environment variable to it in the folder where mit scheme is installed
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2016-11-13T17:54:42Z cojy: for me its --band /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/mit-scheme/all.com
2016-11-13T17:54:59Z cojy: or export MITSCHEME_BAND=/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/mit-scheme/all.com
2016-11-13T17:55:52Z yotta: jmarcian`: you need the alias else I'd need to navigate to that directory each time, no?
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2016-11-13T17:56:27Z jmarcian`: aha that is on your OS like that? I have it in PATH, so I don't navigate there
2016-11-13T17:56:49Z yotta: what OS are you on?
2016-11-13T17:57:17Z yotta: err
2016-11-13T17:57:52Z cojy: ohhh i got confused who was who
2016-11-13T17:58:11Z cojy: yotta: what OS are you on?
2016-11-13T17:58:13Z cojy: im on linux
2016-11-13T17:58:19Z yotta: I'm on macOS
2016-11-13T17:58:20Z jmarcian`: I am on GNU
2016-11-13T17:58:40Z cojy: ahhh
2016-11-13T17:59:06Z cojy: yea you'd need to inspect whatever the command you are running is doing
2016-11-13T17:59:12Z jmarcian`: if you cannot use PATH, make a symlink in your currrent directory
2016-11-13T17:59:25Z yotta: isn't the alias sufficient
2016-11-13T17:59:36Z jmarcian`: if it works, then yes
2016-11-13T18:00:40Z yotta: yep, it's working
2016-11-13T18:01:06Z cojy: it was running with --edit and --band ...
2016-11-13T18:01:23Z cojy: you could just copy the --band part and change it to --emacs
2016-11-13T18:02:12Z yotta: yeah I'm gonna get the emacs stuff set up once I get back
2016-11-13T18:02:24Z yotta: happy to have gotten the repl working in the terminal though
2016-11-13T18:02:31Z yotta: thanks guys, be back later
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2016-11-15T05:12:51Z haziz1: (testing)
2016-11-15T05:13:22Z haziz1: (testing 1 2 3)
2016-11-15T05:15:56Z haziz1: How do I set up transcript-on with chez-scheme to record only the REPL while running within Emacs/Geiser?
2016-11-15T05:22:27Z haziz1: Any plans for R7RS support within chez-scheme? What about R7RS large once approved?
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2016-11-15T22:33:50Z Menche:  O_o
2016-11-15T22:34:46Z wasamasa: what are you gawking at?
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2016-11-15T22:35:36Z Menche: oh that's what /amsg does, oops
2016-11-15T22:35:47Z Menche: sry
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2016-11-15T22:47:23Z n_blownapart: hi, I'm wondering if currying is used a lot in scheme or marginally
2016-11-15T22:47:52Z n_blownapart: ie considered good practice
2016-11-15T22:51:44Z cojy: if you need it you need it, if you don't you don't
2016-11-15T22:52:01Z cojy: scheme itself doesn't do it
2016-11-15T22:52:10Z cojy: and most code you see wont
2016-11-15T22:52:33Z n_blownapart: cojy: thanks I'm doing a tutorial .. if you have time, something else ....
2016-11-15T22:53:10Z n_blownapart: still getting higher-order functions. so far I understand them to be:
2016-11-15T22:54:04Z n_blownapart: functions that take one function or more as parameters. or a func that returns another function. but I came across this which I find interesting:
2016-11-15T22:54:41Z n_blownapart: Functions of order i, i >= 2, are called higher-order functions
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2016-11-15T22:55:32Z n_blownapart: cojy does that define all higher-order funcs?
2016-11-15T22:56:11Z n_blownapart: I would think that is just a reality of anything recursive
2016-11-15T22:56:40Z n_blownapart: perhaps I don't understand what it means by "an order of"
2016-11-15T22:56:57Z n_blownapart: *of order
2016-11-15T22:57:04Z cojy: wellf or example a first order language one is just where you can't pass functions as values
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2016-11-15T22:57:59Z n_blownapart: ok but could you explain "the order of i , i >= 2 part ?
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2016-11-15T22:58:31Z n_blownapart: I realize a lot of sicp so far uses base cases which are > 2
2016-11-15T22:58:48Z n_blownapart: >= 2
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2016-11-15T23:00:44Z cojy: its not really important
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2016-11-15T23:01:22Z cojy: i wouldn't know any meaningful reason to distinguish any particular numbers other than first-order and high-order
2016-11-15T23:01:59Z cojy: might help to relate it to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher-order_logic
2016-11-15T23:02:24Z n_blownapart: interesting thank you .. er, one moment please
2016-11-15T23:04:48Z n_blownapart: cojy if you care to look the first little box in red will show the context of my query : http://people.cs.aau.dk/~normark/prog3-03/html/notes/higher-order-fu_themes-intr-section.html
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2016-11-15T23:06:13Z n_blownapart: I guess that does not refer to base case or predicates ..
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2016-11-15T23:14:17Z cojy: im sure there's some languages where this might matter but i don't have any examples
2016-11-15T23:15:06Z n_blownapart: cojy thanks, just to verify, that i is not referring to how you set the base case, right?
2016-11-15T23:15:18Z cojy: nope
2016-11-15T23:16:04Z n_blownapart: thanks kindly I will try to find what its referring to
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2016-11-16T02:29:41Z yotta: anyone ever get mit scheme working in emacs? the repl and stuff?
2016-11-16T02:29:46Z yotta: I'm on macOS
2016-11-16T02:31:13Z Riastradh: Haven't tried it on a Mac in years, but Chris still runs it on a Mac.
2016-11-16T02:34:20Z yotta: I installed the Mac application, and I have the repl working in terminal now by typing "scheme" via an alias and a symbolic link, but whenever I try to do M-x run-scheme, it gives me an error can't find readable default for option --band
2016-11-16T02:34:45Z yotta: I was getting this in terminal too, and I fixed it by adding an environmental variable. maybe emacs doesn't have access to it?...
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2016-11-16T02:35:38Z Riastradh: Maybe.  Could try doing M-x setenv MITSCHEME_LIBRARY_PATH in Emacs.
2016-11-16T02:35:48Z Riastradh: Should point to somewhere in the .app bundle, if I recall correctly.
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2016-11-16T02:38:27Z yotta: tried that, same error, emacs is saying it can't find option for --band in /Application/MIT-GNU Scheme.app/Contents/Resource, which is where the environmental is set working in terminal
2016-11-16T02:38:41Z yotta: it was saying that before even doing setenv
2016-11-16T02:38:55Z Riastradh: Dunno, send mail to mit-scheme-users@gnu.org and hope Chris answers?
2016-11-16T02:38:55Z yotta: is setenv temporary?
2016-11-16T02:39:11Z Riastradh: The effect is limited to the Emacs process -- if you restart Emacs, it will go away.
2016-11-16T02:39:21Z Riastradh: But it is inherited by children, I believe.
2016-11-16T02:39:22Z yotta: how do I check what it's set to?
2016-11-16T02:39:28Z Riastradh: M-x getenv MITSCHEME_LIBRARY_PATH RET
2016-11-16T02:39:52Z Riastradh: If it was already saying that, though, odd.
2016-11-16T02:40:16Z yotta: hmmm I restarted emacs and see that that environmental variable is already set
2016-11-16T02:40:33Z yotta: so it is getting my environmental variables, something else is awry..
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2016-11-16T07:03:54Z chatter: Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:04:05Z chatter: sun is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:04:17Z chatter: moon is not doing Allah is doing
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2016-11-16T07:06:42Z chatter: stars are not doing Allah is doing
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2016-11-16T07:07:00Z chatter: planets are not doing allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:07:19Z chatter: galaxies are not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:07:34Z chatter: oceans are not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:07:51Z chatter: mountains are not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:08:08Z chatter: trees are not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:08:22Z chatter: mom is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:08:32Z chatter: dad is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:08:43Z chatter: boss is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:08:55Z chatter: job is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:09:22Z chatter: dollar is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:10:56Z chatter: degree is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:11:09Z chatter: medicine is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:11:24Z chatter: customers are not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:12:45Z chatter: you can not get a job without the permission of Allah
2016-11-16T07:17:02Z chatter: you can not get married without the permission of Allah
2016-11-16T07:19:47Z chatter: nobody can get angry at you without the permission of Allah
2016-11-16T07:20:30Z chatter: light is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:21:52Z chatter: fan is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:23:40Z chatter: businessess are not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:23:52Z profan: more religious spam lol
2016-11-16T07:23:57Z chatter: america is not doing Allah is doing
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2016-11-16T07:25:33Z chatter: fire can not burn without the permission of Allah
2016-11-16T07:27:14Z chatter: knife can not cut without the permission of Allah
2016-11-16T07:28:42Z chatter: rulers are not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:28:59Z pierpa can /ignore shit without the permission of allah
2016-11-16T07:29:16Z chatter: governments are not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:31:10Z chatter: sleep is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:31:26Z chatter: hunger is not doing Allah is doing
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2016-11-16T07:46:38Z chatter: food does not take away the hunger Allah takes away the hunger
2016-11-16T07:48:06Z chatter: water does not take away the thirst Allah takes away the thirst
2016-11-16T07:48:30Z chatter: seeing is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:48:52Z chatter: hearing is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:49:38Z chatter: seasons are not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:50:14Z chatter: weather is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:50:54Z chatter: humans are not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:51:15Z chatter: animals are not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T07:52:07Z chatter: the best amongst you are those who learn the Quran and teach it
2016-11-16T07:53:53Z chatter: one letter read from book of Allah amounts to one good deed and Allah multiplies one good deed ten times
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2016-11-16T07:55:15Z chatter: hearts get rusted as does iron with water to remove rust from heart recitation of Quran and remembrance of death
2016-11-16T07:55:28Z chatter: heart is likened to a mirror
2016-11-16T07:55:58Z chatter: when a person commits one sin a black dot sustains the heart
2016-11-16T07:58:17Z chatter: to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
2016-11-16T07:59:27Z chatter: read book http://www.fazaileamaal.com
2016-11-16T08:00:54Z chatter: read book http://www.muntakhabahadith.com
2016-11-16T08:02:17Z chatter: need spiritual teacher visit http://www.alhaadi.org.za
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2016-11-16T08:03:48Z chatter: Allah created the sky without any pillars
2016-11-16T08:05:23Z chatter: Allah makes the sun rise from the east and Allah makes the sun set in the west
2016-11-16T08:06:19Z chatter: Allah makes the day into the night and Allah makes the night into the day
2016-11-16T08:06:34Z chatter: Allah gives life and Allah gives death
2016-11-16T08:07:16Z chatter: all creation are useless,worthless,hopeless
2016-11-16T08:07:24Z chatter: can not do
2016-11-16T08:07:30Z chatter: can not benefit
2016-11-16T08:07:35Z chatter: can not harm
2016-11-16T08:08:18Z chatter: Allah is the doer of each and everything
2016-11-16T08:08:19Z lambda-11235: I just noticed there aren't any ops.
2016-11-16T08:08:57Z chatter: when Allah wants us to stand we stand
2016-11-16T08:09:19Z chatter: when Allah wants us to sit we sit
2016-11-16T08:09:59Z chatter: i am not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T08:10:20Z chatter: you are not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T08:10:58Z chatter: atom bomb is not doing Allah is doing
2016-11-16T08:11:21Z \h: samth: ping
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2016-11-16T08:19:51Z chatter: all creation get together can not create one grain of rice
2016-11-16T08:20:18Z chatter: all humans get together can not stop rain
2016-11-16T08:20:52Z chatter: all humans get together can not make anybody hungry
2016-11-16T08:22:08Z chatter: all humans get together can not move sun one second up or down
2016-11-16T08:22:35Z chatter: we can not count the hair on our head
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2016-11-16T08:23:09Z chatter: we can not count the rain drops
2016-11-16T08:23:43Z chatter: we can not count the particles of sand
2016-11-16T08:24:31Z chatter: medicine has no power to cure
2016-11-16T08:25:23Z chatter: two people take same medicine one passes away and one does not
2016-11-16T08:25:47Z chatter: degree has no power to give job
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2016-11-16T08:26:31Z chatter: many people have degrees but do not have jobs
2016-11-16T08:27:11Z chatter: sustenance does not depend on effort
2016-11-16T08:27:48Z chatter: one person is working very much but is earning very less
2016-11-16T08:28:29Z chatter: other person is working very less but is earning very much
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2016-11-16T08:30:27Z sosho: some ppl just lik 2party :)
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2016-11-16T08:33:11Z C-Keen: that's been allah spamming without allah, buddhist spamming then?
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2016-11-16T16:57:48Z jcowan: hey ho
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2016-11-16T23:47:35Z MapMan: Hi! I'm on windows using dr racket. How do I stop it from outputting (printing) fractions and always give me decimals?
2016-11-16T23:48:19Z MoronicAcid: Wrap your output with the function exact->inexact.
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2016-11-16T23:51:24Z MapMan: MoronicAcid: thank you, that worked perfectly :)
2016-11-16T23:52:51Z MapMan: MoronicAcid: wrapping the input in exact->inexact worked too, as it snowballed through the program
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2016-11-16T23:54:10Z MoronicAcid: MapMan: yw
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2016-11-18T17:56:12Z leppie: rudybot: (set! weekend #t)
2016-11-18T17:56:15Z rudybot: leppie: your sandbox is ready
2016-11-18T17:56:15Z rudybot: leppie: error: set!: assignment disallowed; <NEWLINE>  cannot set variable before its definition <NEWLINE>   variable: weekend <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2016-11-18T17:56:38Z leppie: you are not a real REPL, rudybot
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