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2016-10-01T12:55:57Z amz3` looking for a frontend app to build...
2016-10-01T12:56:06Z amz3`: any idea of an app that can be useful?
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2016-10-01T13:18:51Z wasamasa: a todo app is always useful
2016-10-01T13:18:54Z wasamasa: see todomvc
2016-10-01T13:19:13Z wasamasa: alternatively, look at the elm examples
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2016-10-01T13:54:20Z amz3`: wasamasa: todomvc has only one route, I will look at elm examples thx
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2016-10-01T14:37:04Z jmd: I'm trying to run a procedure which I've retrieved from an alist.  But I always get an error "wrong type to apply" or similar.  What have I done wrong?
2016-10-01T14:40:26Z ecraven: jmd: how are you retrieving it? how are you applying it? what is the exact error message you get?
2016-10-01T14:41:36Z jmd: I've tried several things.
2016-10-01T14:41:47Z jmd: For example (apply ...)
2016-10-01T14:42:44Z jmd: In which case the error message is ERROR: In procedure apply:nconc2last: Wrong type argument in position 1: ()
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2016-10-01T14:43:32Z jmd: I've also tried just (...)  In which case the error is ERROR: Wrong type to apply: run-disks
2016-10-01T14:43:56Z jmd: ("run-disks" is the name of the procedure)
2016-10-01T14:43:58Z ecraven: jmd: if you type "(apply ...)" that will certainly not work.. paste more details in some pastebin
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2016-10-01T14:46:09Z wasamasa: jmd: are you sure there's a procedure in there and not a symbol?
2016-10-01T14:47:13Z jmd: http://paste.lisp.org/+70Q1
2016-10-01T14:47:31Z jmd: wasamasa: I did define such a procedure.
2016-10-01T14:48:19Z ecraven: what does assoc-ref return if it doesn't find the key? #f or '()
2016-10-01T14:49:17Z jmd: I'm not sure.  But it certainly is finding the key otherwise I wouldn't be getting that message.
2016-10-01T14:50:06Z jmd: (According to the manual it would return #f)
2016-10-01T14:52:31Z ecraven: what do your data items in the a-list look like? (foo bar baaz)?
2016-10-01T14:53:43Z jmd: In that particular case it is ("string" run-disks)
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2016-10-01T14:55:28Z ecraven: how do you construct the list? `("string" ,run-disks) or '("string" run-disks) ?
2016-10-01T14:56:24Z jmd: ecraven: You're right.  I forgot the ,
2016-10-01T14:56:27Z jmd: Thanks.
2016-10-01T14:56:40Z wasamasa: in other words, there was no procedure in the alist
2016-10-01T14:57:04Z ecraven: wasamasa: as you said, it was a symbol :)
2016-10-01T14:57:27Z ecraven: jmd: remember that if you use `,', you also need ``', not `''
2016-10-01T14:57:39Z ecraven: now that shows that quoting things with `' is not always a good idea :D
2016-10-01T14:58:47Z wasamasa: sometimes there is no way around it, in such cases people often grab eval as last resort
2016-10-01T15:00:55Z ecraven: wasamasa: sorry, I meant in describing things on this channel, as it leads to `` and ''. I have no problems with quasiquote at all, it is great!
2016-10-01T15:01:32Z wasamasa: I mean the case where you only get the symbol the procedure is known by
2016-10-01T15:03:25Z ecraven: wasamasa: in such cases I prefer to have a hash table that associates symbols with their procedures... but as you said, sometimes it isn't possible, then the only resort seems `eval'
2016-10-01T15:03:37Z wasamasa: right, I went for this before
2016-10-01T15:03:50Z wasamasa: or worse, with pointers as keys :D
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2016-10-01T22:06:18Z lritter: today's challenge: implement letrec without set!
2016-10-01T22:07:20Z lritter: the best i could come up with is starting off on the idea that you can implement let using lambda + an application
2016-10-01T22:08:04Z lritter: if you allow that the application itself has an environment that binds the lambda's arguments, then letrec is implement.
2016-10-01T22:08:07Z lritter: +ed
2016-10-01T22:09:14Z lritter: so that shifts from letrec as special form to rec-apply as special form
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2016-10-01T22:10:33Z lritter: i think that's what i'll use.
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2016-10-02T11:22:30Z amz3`: here is the resulting demo: https://amirouche.github.io/scheme-todomvc/
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2016-10-02T13:02:30Z jmd: How can I find out the type of a variable?
2016-10-02T13:05:56Z wasamasa: you can't
2016-10-02T13:06:04Z wasamasa: introspection is absent from the standards
2016-10-02T13:06:12Z wasamasa: instead you get a bag of type predicates
2016-10-02T13:07:21Z jmd: I see.
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2016-10-02T19:37:08Z ecraven: hm.. is it really the case that no two form elements (even in different forms) on a page can have the same `name' attribute? firefox seems to show the same content for all form elements with the same name, even in different forms :-/
2016-10-02T19:38:56Z qu1j0t3: ecraven: I don't believe that's the case. afaik, each form is its own NAME-space. :)
2016-10-02T19:39:09Z qu1j0t3: ecraven: but i could be mistaken, disclaimer, did not read doc
2016-10-02T19:39:32Z qu1j0t3: *today
2016-10-02T19:40:03Z ecraven: qu1j0t3: just looking at the raw HTML, it seems I'm actually sending the faulty data.. good thing, I was really wondering ...
2016-10-02T19:41:53Z ecraven: though I really don't understand *why* I'm sending it...
2016-10-02T19:42:31Z qu1j0t3: ecraven: how is form submit being triggerd?
2016-10-02T19:42:49Z ecraven: the problem seems to be the scheme code that actually creates the form
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2016-10-02T19:44:23Z ecraven: interesting, seems I pass the same object twice, instead of two different ones...
2016-10-02T19:50:25Z ecraven: lesson: don't push stuff into a list without checking first whether it's there already
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2016-10-03T02:45:03Z tom99: hmm. which scheme is best for math computations and/or making web servers?
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2016-10-03T05:09:49Z ecraven: tom99: most will work
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2016-10-03T09:01:43Z johnwhat: how to turn data to code?
2016-10-03T09:02:05Z johnwhat: except (eval)
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2016-10-03T09:09:30Z wasamasa: you need to be a bit less handwavey
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2016-10-03T10:19:53Z edgar-rft: johnwhat: source code or machine code or what do you mean?
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2016-10-03T10:30:05Z johnwhat: edgar-rft: source code
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2016-10-03T10:33:30Z edgar-rft: johnwhat: macros for example can transform anything into source code
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2016-10-03T10:56:08Z amz3`: I posted my experiment with biwascheme and snabbdom to HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12626351
2016-10-03T11:03:26Z ecraven: hm.. is (section (@ (class . "header")) ..) valid sxml? doesn't sxml use (@ (class "header")) normally?
2016-10-03T11:03:37Z ecraven: (i.e. list, not pair for the attributes)
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2016-10-03T11:46:14Z jmd: What is a good way to implement a FIFO queue in scheme?
2016-10-03T11:48:24Z wasamasa: step 1: define a record holding a list as storage and keeps track of the beginning and end
2016-10-03T11:49:23Z wasamasa: step 2: write procedures to enqueue/dequeue that update beginning and end appropriately
2016-10-03T11:49:38Z ecraven: wasn't there an srfi fairly recently?
2016-10-03T11:49:51Z ecraven: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-117/srfi-117.html
2016-10-03T11:51:34Z jmd: wasamasa: I can't imagine how the dequeue could work efficiently.
2016-10-03T11:52:10Z wasamasa: jmd: if you hold a reference to the last cons, it should be no problem
2016-10-03T11:54:42Z jmd: ok.  So I have a ref to the last cons.  And I want to deque something.  So I deref that reference and that is the thing I need to dequeue. And now, I write '() into where that cons was.   So far, so good. Now how do I find the new end of the queue? (without iterating the list)
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2016-10-03T11:57:09Z ecraven: I think the idea is to take from the beginning and add to the end
2016-10-03T11:57:32Z ecraven: also, look at that srfi, it has a reference implementation
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2016-10-03T12:00:49Z jmd: ecraven: OK.  I will do that.  Thanks.
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2016-10-03T13:31:30Z webshinra: I'm a little sad
2016-10-03T13:32:03Z webshinra: the more I study scheme, the more it seems that it is praticaly impossible to write interoperable code
2016-10-03T13:32:26Z webshinra: (implementation agnostic)
2016-10-03T13:32:52Z webshinra: Is it a misconception, or a terrible truth?
2016-10-03T13:33:02Z wasamasa: that's how scheme is
2016-10-03T13:33:09Z wasamasa: it's not about writing portable code after all
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2016-10-03T13:34:53Z webshinra: I can understand that gui/network/whateversystemlib would be interpreter-specific
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2016-10-03T13:37:44Z webshinra: but I can't see why it's so hard to get a "core" (ie within the same rnrs) that would allow interop
2016-10-03T13:38:28Z mario-goulart: webshinra: some cond-expand here and there sometimes help, but real-world practical tools can be hard to make portable.
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2016-10-03T13:41:44Z webshinra: mario-goulart, why? (especially when the language is that far from hardware)
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2016-10-03T13:42:45Z mario-goulart: webshinra: because many things related to the operating system interface are not standardized.
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2016-10-03T13:44:10Z webshinra: mario-goulart, that not that part that worry me
2016-10-03T13:45:02Z wasamasa: r7rs-small is closer to a scheme core usable for writing portable libraries
2016-10-03T13:45:18Z wasamasa: see the abandoned https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-srfis
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2016-10-03T13:47:21Z wasamasa: abandoned because taylan threw a fit about some recent SRFI things, not sure which
2016-10-03T13:47:33Z wasamasa: either having three hash table SRFIs or the record discussion
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2016-10-03T13:48:02Z mario-goulart: webshinra: what worries you?
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2016-10-03T13:48:37Z webshinra: wasamasa, I'll look a it more closely
2016-10-03T13:48:54Z pierpa: btw, is it known that the srfi mailing lists appear to work randomly now?
2016-10-03T13:50:10Z webshinra: mario-goulart, the absence of a clear entry point
2016-10-03T13:50:31Z mario-goulart: _That_ is not clear. :-)
2016-10-03T13:50:37Z webshinra: yes
2016-10-03T13:51:16Z mario-goulart: I mean, the meaning of "entry point" is not clear to me. :-)
2016-10-03T13:51:40Z webshinra: yes, that's what I understood
2016-10-03T13:52:10Z webshinra: as every interpreter implement it's own improvement (ex lambda* for guile etc.) and does not seem to clearly state what is standard, what is not, what is the alternative to it's specific construct
2016-10-03T13:52:40Z wasamasa: uh
2016-10-03T13:52:57Z wasamasa: why don't you look at the standard it implements and just use the relevant document for reference?
2016-10-03T13:53:31Z mario-goulart: If you want to make portable programs, you should look at the standard.
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2016-10-03T13:54:23Z wasamasa: also, the documentation of the scheme system would ideally include where they diverge from the standard and what extensions they include
2016-10-03T13:55:08Z ecraven: wasamasa: have you seen any Scheme system that actually does this?
2016-10-03T13:55:14Z wasamasa: ecraven: yes, CHICKEN
2016-10-03T13:55:28Z ecraven: ok, all the ones I know don't actually say what is standard and what isn't clearly
2016-10-03T13:55:43Z wasamasa: http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/Supported%20language
2016-10-03T13:56:05Z wasamasa: "Deviations from the standard", "Extensions to the standard"
2016-10-03T13:56:19Z ecraven: nice
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2016-10-03T13:56:26Z jmd: The great thing about standards is, that there are so many to choose from.
2016-10-03T13:56:35Z wasamasa: plus the following sections on non-standard read syntax, macros and special forms
2016-10-03T13:56:35Z gwatt: I think Chez documents where it deviates from r6rs
2016-10-03T13:57:37Z webshinra: I actualy use guile, without many elements on «how to choose your implementation»
2016-10-03T13:58:00Z jmd: Is it legal to use #f as the key to an alist?
2016-10-03T13:58:15Z webshinra: it seem like it
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2016-10-03T13:59:23Z wasamasa: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/R6RS-Incompatibilities.html#R6RS-Incompatibilities
2016-10-03T13:59:23Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/k433WHYC2H
2016-10-03T13:59:39Z wasamasa: no such thing for r5rs though
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2016-10-03T14:01:56Z webshinra: I was looking at Michele Simionato «sweet-macro» and was surprised that he can't buit is lib once and for all
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2016-10-03T14:02:37Z webshinra: (even with R6RS library system)
2016-10-03T14:02:51Z ecraven: jmd: yes it is
2016-10-03T14:02:58Z ecraven: you can use anything as a key in an alist
2016-10-03T14:03:05Z ecraven: even the alist itself, with some trickery :)
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2016-10-03T14:46:20Z jcowan: hey ho
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2016-10-03T14:46:34Z gnomon: Ahoy
2016-10-03T14:47:07Z jcowan: Amazing, it is a gnomon!
2016-10-03T14:47:14Z gnomon: WHAT WHERE
2016-10-03T14:47:22Z gnomon whirls around frantically
2016-10-03T14:47:48Z gnomon performs most actions frantically though, so don't get too excited
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2016-10-03T14:51:42Z webshinra: hum
2016-10-03T14:52:03Z webshinra: I think I'll try the R6RS mode of racket
2016-10-03T14:57:05Z jcowan: R6RS mode of anything is rather painful, because it's a whole-program standard.
2016-10-03T14:57:13Z jcowan: That said, I haven't tried Racket's.
2016-10-03T14:57:22Z qu1j0t3: gnomon: only after coffee, presumably
2016-10-03T14:58:35Z jcowan: What is this coffee of which you speak?
2016-10-03T14:59:58Z gnomon: jcowan, the spice must flow.
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2016-10-03T15:01:14Z qu1j0t3: ^^^
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2016-10-03T15:15:17Z webshinra: jcowan, a whole program standard?
2016-10-03T15:15:46Z jcowan: webshinra: Just so
2016-10-03T15:16:00Z jcowan: Oh, meaning it defines the meaning only of whole programs, not of REPL behavior.
2016-10-03T15:16:21Z jcowan: so typically R6RS mode on Scheme implementations that have it is a batch mode.
2016-10-03T15:16:32Z webshinra: oh
2016-10-03T15:16:57Z webshinra: that's why guile is contradict imself bettwen libs and repl
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2016-10-03T16:28:31Z wasamasa: webshinra: elsewhere
2016-10-03T16:28:32Z wasamasa: <davexunit> I think "standard scheme" is mostly a waste of time.  just pick a scheme and stick with it.  they are each unique languages in their own right.
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2016-10-03T16:31:26Z jcowan: wasamasa: That's perfectly reasonable for Scheme application programmers.  For library authors, though, it's a horrible cost: they have to maintain N versions of libraries to make them available to all Schemers.
2016-10-03T16:31:36Z webshinra: yep
2016-10-03T16:31:40Z jcowan: R7RS-small was designed to reduce that cost to something more manageable.
2016-10-03T16:32:12Z jcowan: R7RS-large in turn is meant to make application programmers' life easier, so they don't have to build castles out of matchsticks.
2016-10-03T16:33:25Z jcowan: But of the two, -small is far more important.
2016-10-03T16:33:48Z webshinra: that's supposed to be the intrinsec meaning of «standardisation»
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2016-10-03T16:35:11Z webshinra: I think I'll implement the logical core of my program using R7RS-small
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2016-10-03T16:35:40Z jcowan: webshinra: Yes, but there are different reasons to standardize.
2016-10-03T16:35:43Z webshinra: and use a more integrated scheme (Racket, guile) to interface it with an interface
2016-10-03T16:36:08Z jcowan: Most languages are standardized by having just one implementation, or one that is so dominant all others must play catchup.  Scheme hasn't gone down that route.
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2016-10-03T16:37:58Z webshinra: hum, I didn't practice that kind of languages
2016-10-03T16:38:29Z wasamasa: what did you program in then?
2016-10-03T16:38:53Z wasamasa: inb4 C
2016-10-03T16:39:18Z webshinra: TeX can be put in that category
2016-10-03T16:39:50Z webshinra: but else, I mostly code in OCaml and c++
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2016-10-03T16:43:33Z qu1j0t3: hm, how many impl's of Ocaml are there? :)
2016-10-03T16:43:38Z webshinra: I was looking for an high level dynamic language, the two precedent being cool but a little rigid
2016-10-03T16:44:18Z wasamasa: ocaml is a single-implementation thing, no
2016-10-03T16:44:23Z wasamasa: like a more practical SML
2016-10-03T16:46:37Z webshinra: well, let's not compare INRIA and Guido van Rossum design decision making
2016-10-03T16:48:58Z webshinra: (and in fact ocaml is to caml what racket is for scheme)
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2016-10-03T17:01:50Z webshinra: ok, thank for your help
2016-10-03T17:02:48Z webshinra: I'll stay on «core in R7RS» and hope it'll not explode in my face
2016-10-03T17:03:05Z wasamasa is still not sure what exactly the problem is
2016-10-03T17:04:51Z webshinra: I would say mostly arstistical constraint
2016-10-03T17:05:45Z webshinra: the core code is meant to be usable (ie comprehensible a last, executable at best) in maybe 30 or 50 years
2016-10-03T17:06:12Z wasamasa: I have bad news for you
2016-10-03T17:06:21Z webshinra: I cannot then, use a specific implementation whoose design can change radicaly or be lost
2016-10-03T17:06:23Z qu1j0t3: of several kinds
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2016-10-03T17:07:33Z wasamasa is sort of sad webshinra is not shinmera
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2016-10-03T17:10:17Z webshinra: standard have most chance to be reachable in the futur, and the relative simplicity of scheme make it 1) easy to explain it roughly in ~10 pages 2) be «not that hard» to reimplement if someone doing «game archeology» decide to try
2016-10-03T17:10:46Z wasamasa: archival people can only laugh at your simplified world view
2016-10-03T17:11:54Z webshinra: well, there are rpg book 30 years old in my club's library
2016-10-03T17:12:33Z webshinra: and we played one of them last week
2016-10-03T17:12:43Z wasamasa: books are a whole lot better at this than anything digital
2016-10-03T17:12:56Z webshinra: yes, that's why i'm writing a book
2016-10-03T17:14:16Z webshinra: a tabletop RPG one, including a formal representation of the rules and game system in scheme
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2016-10-03T17:14:59Z wasamasa: I still don't get what the problem is
2016-10-03T17:16:24Z webshinra: I should have not understood which problem you'r speaking of
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2016-10-03T17:18:15Z wasamasa: I'll just refer to the backlog
2016-10-03T17:18:39Z mario-goulart: webshinra: you may also stick to a specific scheme implementation, use all its features, and hope that it will be able to be compiled in 30 or 50 years.
2016-10-03T17:19:03Z mario-goulart: Just keep the sources together with your app.
2016-10-03T17:19:22Z wasamasa: it doesn't sound like you're writing an actual game
2016-10-03T17:19:52Z wasamasa: so I don't see why going for portable scheme would be a problem
2016-10-03T17:20:04Z wasamasa: granted, it would be a bit verbose at times, but that wouldn't really matter
2016-10-03T17:21:45Z wasamasa: anyway, if you want a more qualified opinion on how it would be done, alan kay wrote on it
2016-10-03T17:22:06Z wasamasa: http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2015004_cuneiform.pdf
2016-10-03T17:25:23Z wasamasa: the prologue features a case of 16-year-old storage technology failing us hard
2016-10-03T17:28:09Z webshinra: well, for the digital support of the program, Software Heritage will probably be an answer
2016-10-03T17:29:25Z webshinra: but, notice i'm not saying that I will succede in making a software that could still be usefull in 30 years
2016-10-03T17:29:48Z webshinra: I'm just saying I'm doing my best for it
2016-10-03T17:30:03Z wasamasa: cute
2016-10-03T17:30:41Z webshinra: thank you
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2016-10-03T19:49:02Z jmd: How can I force  a number to be an integer?
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2016-10-03T19:56:11Z civodul: jmd: inexact->exact
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2016-10-03T19:56:43Z civodul: well, if the original thing is an "inexact number" such as 3.14
2016-10-03T19:57:20Z jmd: thanks.
2016-10-03T20:02:35Z ecraven: r7rs calls it `inexact'
2016-10-03T20:02:38Z ecraven: eh, exact
2016-10-03T20:05:01Z daviid: civodul: whaaat? :) (integer? (inexact->exact 1.2)) -| #f
2016-10-03T20:05:25Z ecraven: daviid: that might be 6/5
2016-10-03T20:05:43Z ecraven: or on mit-scheme, 5404319552844595/4503599627370496
2016-10-03T20:06:00Z civodul: ecraven: oh you're right
2016-10-03T20:06:10Z civodul: well, (inexact->exact (floor (* n 1.)))
2016-10-03T20:06:21Z civodul: never understood why it's this difficult to get an integer :-)
2016-10-03T20:06:30Z daviid: :)
2016-10-03T20:06:31Z ecraven: civodul: mit has truncate->exact
2016-10-03T20:06:35Z ecraven: others have similar things
2016-10-03T20:06:46Z ecraven: even floor->exact :)
2016-10-03T20:07:01Z civodul: give-me-an-integer :-)
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2016-10-03T20:39:48Z pierpa: In scheme 1.0 is an integer. This is different from most other languages. So floor, ceiling, and truncate returns integers.
2016-10-03T20:41:18Z pierpa: so, if one wants an EXACT integer, from an inexact number, then it's two operations.
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2016-10-03T20:41:44Z gnomon: Exactly.
2016-10-03T20:41:57Z pierpa: Integerly
2016-10-03T20:42:10Z qu1j0t3: let's truncate this right here.
2016-10-03T20:42:12Z gnomon: Rationally.
2016-10-03T20:42:15Z gnomon: DANG IT
2016-10-03T20:42:18Z gnomon: In past the buzzer.
2016-10-03T20:42:26Z qu1j0t3 hits the floor
2016-10-03T20:42:33Z gnomon drops a beat
2016-10-03T20:42:56Z gnomon: *clunk* *flop* *wub wub wub*
2016-10-03T20:42:59Z qu1j0t3: that, uh, went in an unexpected direction
2016-10-03T20:43:19Z gnomon: Nobody expects the unexpected direction!
2016-10-03T20:43:35Z qu1j0t3: I think we're floating past the point
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2016-10-03T20:43:43Z qu1j0t3: ...of no return!
2016-10-03T20:45:27Z pierpa: no return? use CPS.
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2016-10-03T20:51:36Z ijp: the continuation passing salesman never gets home :(
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2016-10-03T20:55:26Z ijp: Exercise: write a scheme program that generates a setup for a joke given a punchline and then run it on that line
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2016-10-03T20:59:28Z bsat98: i think i have a problem with understanding quote or something
2016-10-03T20:59:30Z bsat98: https://dpaste.de/8iEW
2016-10-03T21:00:04Z wasamasa: it should work if you (list + 1) instead
2016-10-03T21:00:06Z bsat98: that gives me simply "(+ 1 2)" which is what i want
2016-10-03T21:00:16Z bsat98: but it doesn't evaluate
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2016-10-03T21:02:35Z bsat98: wasamasa: i get a procedure if i use list instead of quote
2016-10-03T21:02:46Z bsat98: but when i try to apply it it says wrong type to apply
2016-10-03T21:04:27Z ijp: how are you using apply?
2016-10-03T21:04:35Z ijp: you definitely do not want to quote the +
2016-10-03T21:06:01Z pierpa: bsat: do you want this? (define (partial x y) (lambda (z) (x y z)))
2016-10-03T21:06:19Z pierpa: ((partial + 1) 2) ==> 3
2016-10-03T21:06:44Z pierpa: bsat98: ^
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2016-10-03T21:07:13Z ijp: <aside>When helping new lispers, I think people should avoid using quote for argument lists</aside>
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2016-10-03T21:07:33Z ijp: '(1 2 3 4 5) has been the cause of a lot of confusion
2016-10-03T21:07:57Z pierpa: ?
2016-10-03T21:07:59Z pierpa: why
2016-10-03T21:08:18Z bsat98: ijp: i didn'
2016-10-03T21:08:20Z bsat98: t use apply
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2016-10-03T21:08:48Z bsat98: i want to go from (+ 1) -> (+ 1 2) -> 3
2016-10-03T21:09:18Z bsat98: so i thought i would basically append 2 to (+ 1) and then apply it with (..)
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2016-10-03T21:09:25Z DeeEff[m]: pierpa: It's just as easy to write (list 1 2 3 4 5) and not have any ambiguity in terms of "is that a quoted expression" or "did you forget to close your quote?"
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2016-10-03T21:10:25Z ijp: bsat98: then no, you cannot do that
2016-10-03T21:10:37Z pierpa: DeeEff: hmmm  maybe
2016-10-03T21:10:51Z bsat98: do i have an error in reasoning
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2016-10-03T21:11:26Z ijp: probably several
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2016-10-03T21:11:38Z bsat98: mmk thanks
2016-10-03T21:11:45Z pierpa: bsat98: (define (partial x) (lambda (z) ((car x) (cadr x) z)))
2016-10-03T21:11:57Z pierpa: this a fixed version of your procedure
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2016-10-03T21:12:18Z pierpa: ((partial (list + 1)) 2) ==> 3
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2016-10-03T21:12:58Z bsat98: pierpa: that works
2016-10-03T21:13:11Z bsat98: i don't understand why mine didn't though
2016-10-03T21:13:40Z pierpa: first, '(+ 1)  is a list which contains a symbol and a number
2016-10-03T21:13:57Z pierpa: while (list + 1) is a list which contains a procedure and a number
2016-10-03T21:13:59Z DeeEff[m]: bsat98: because your procedure named "partial" returns the last expression, which is (list (car x) (cadr x) y)
2016-10-03T21:14:08Z ijp: rudybot:  (equal? + '+)
2016-10-03T21:14:09Z pierpa: do you understand why?
2016-10-03T21:14:09Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2016-10-03T21:14:09Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: #f
2016-10-03T21:14:16Z DeeEff[m]: which means car and cadr are evaluated, and then "list"
2016-10-03T21:14:18Z DeeEff[m]: so a list is returned
2016-10-03T21:14:28Z bsat98: i understand
2016-10-03T21:14:49Z bsat98: does "evaluating" a list with + is just a normal symbol not work
2016-10-03T21:15:04Z bsat98: how could i reify the +
2016-10-03T21:15:12Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-10-03T21:15:17Z jcowan: A symbol is not a procedure.
2016-10-03T21:15:35Z DeeEff[m]: you could theoretically quasi-quote / unquote to get what the symbol + is bound to
2016-10-03T21:15:44Z ijp: bsat98: rather than turning it from a procedure to a symbol and back again, just don't convert it in the first place
2016-10-03T21:16:00Z bsat98: ok
2016-10-03T21:16:04Z bsat98: thanks
2016-10-03T21:16:39Z pierpa: bsat98: to obtain the procedure given the symbol +, eval is the only way
2016-10-03T21:17:08Z bsat98: i see
2016-10-03T21:17:10Z pierpa: (apart from implementation-specific ways, I mean)
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2016-10-03T21:17:52Z ijp: which will fail in some circumstances anyway
2016-10-03T21:18:08Z pierpa: of course :)
2016-10-03T21:20:47Z pierpa: like, (top-level-value '+)  ==>  #<procedure +>
2016-10-03T21:21:06Z pierpa: but this works in chez, and in nothing else, I guess
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2016-10-03T21:26:36Z bsat98: reading these traces is difficult :P
2016-10-03T21:28:45Z bsat98: (define (partial x) (lambda (z) (append x (list z)))
2016-10-03T21:28:53Z bsat98: it seems like that should be the same thing?
2016-10-03T21:29:56Z pierpa: doesn't seem so to me :)
2016-10-03T21:30:45Z bsat98: i think i don't get the difference between an expression and a list
2016-10-03T21:30:51Z bsat98: i thought they were the same in scheme
2016-10-03T21:30:57Z bsat98: and you applied lists with (..)
2016-10-03T21:31:03Z pierpa: this new procedure returns a list, not a number
2016-10-03T21:31:30Z bsat98: (define (partial x) (lambda (z) ((append x (list z))))
2016-10-03T21:31:44Z pierpa: nope
2016-10-03T21:32:09Z bsat98: D:
2016-10-03T21:32:37Z bsat98: why does ((car x) (cadr x) z) apply it
2016-10-03T21:32:41Z pierpa: forget code = data, etc
2016-10-03T21:34:16Z pierpa: because the program (+ 1 2) applies the function bound to the symbol + to the numbers 1 and 2
2016-10-03T21:34:55Z pierpa: while (list '+ 1 2) applies a different function to different arguments
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2016-10-03T21:35:43Z pierpa: bsat98: do you know other programming languages?
2016-10-03T21:36:04Z bsat98: yes several
2016-10-03T21:36:28Z pierpa: for example?  a boring one?
2016-10-03T21:36:41Z pierpa: Java?
2016-10-03T21:36:58Z bsat98: java, scala, javascript, go, etc
2016-10-03T21:37:14Z pierpa: ok. Then Scheme is not different from Java in this regard
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2016-10-03T21:38:06Z bsat98: in the append version, where does + get quoted?
2016-10-03T21:38:30Z bsat98: it seems to me that the result is always (+ 1 2) where + is a procedure, since i stopped quoting it myself
2016-10-03T21:38:57Z pierpa: nowhere. in the append version there's a procedure in the list that you produce
2016-10-03T21:38:59Z bsat98: the difference is you use (car x) as the operator instead of trying to evaluate a list
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2016-10-03T21:39:29Z pierpa: yes, you are producing a list with the items you want in ti
2016-10-03T21:39:31Z pierpa: *it
2016-10-03T21:39:45Z pierpa: but a list is not code. a list is a piece of data
2016-10-03T21:40:23Z pierpa: you COULD use eval on that list to obtain something similar to what you want...
2016-10-03T21:40:25Z bsat98: so really i need to not consider a list of data as executable code
2016-10-03T21:40:39Z pierpa: exactly
2016-10-03T21:40:59Z bsat98: ok thanks
2016-10-03T21:41:16Z pierpa: then when you are more comfortable with the language you may look at macros :)
2016-10-03T21:41:41Z bsat98: how would you use a macro here
2016-10-03T21:42:21Z bsat98: or yoiu just wouldn't have a partial procedure because you'd have ad hoc macros
2016-10-03T21:42:37Z pierpa: no, a macro would not solve this problem
2016-10-03T21:42:48Z bsat98: ok
2016-10-03T21:42:51Z pierpa: but they are a way to build code at compile time
2016-10-03T21:44:04Z bsat98: i could probably use a macro to not have to specify `list` in the argument to partial though?
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2016-10-03T21:44:25Z pierpa: yes, you could do this
2016-10-03T21:45:56Z pierpa: btw, many schemes support a notation to ease this. I don't remember if it got in r7rs. It works like this: (define (((partial x) x) z) (x y z))
2016-10-03T21:46:22Z pierpa: sorry: (define (((partial x) y) z) (x y z))
2016-10-03T21:46:44Z bsat98: hmm i see
2016-10-03T21:46:58Z bsat98: i want to stick to very vanilla scheme for now
2016-10-03T21:47:01Z pierpa: this is equivalent to the first partial that I pasted.
2016-10-03T21:47:31Z bsat98: i still don't see the point of quote outside of eval or replacing `list` for it
2016-10-03T21:48:26Z pierpa: quote is needed to write constants in code
2016-10-03T21:48:49Z bsat98: it looks like it's a form of erasure
2016-10-03T21:49:07Z pierpa: in scheme code, variables are represented by symbols
2016-10-03T21:49:11Z bsat98: i've looked at different scheme codebases and i don't understand their use of it
2016-10-03T21:49:31Z pierpa: if you need to use a symbol, you can't, because it qould be seen as a variable
2016-10-03T21:49:36Z bsat98: my code there i thought would be a good application of it, but apparently not because of erasure
2016-10-03T21:49:41Z bsat98: the + lost its meaning
2016-10-03T21:50:08Z pierpa: so you need quote.  'x  is the symbol named x, while x is the variable named x
2016-10-03T21:50:40Z bsat98: but when do you ever use the symbol
2016-10-03T21:50:45Z bsat98: besides eval
2016-10-03T21:50:58Z bsat98: codegen?
2016-10-03T21:51:12Z pierpa: symbols are a data structure. the most common use is for their identity
2016-10-03T21:51:22Z pierpa: i.e. as keywords
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2016-10-03T21:52:03Z pierpa: then, of course, when handling source code, variables are represented with symbols
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2016-10-03T22:03:01Z jcowan: pierpa: No, it didn't get into R7RS-small.
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2016-10-04T16:04:50Z taylan: webshinra: wasamasa: wouldn't call it abandoned
2016-10-04T16:06:14Z taylan: my interest in r7rs-large has quite diminished over time, but the r7rs-large SRFIs tend to have sample implementations written in r7rs-small anyway so all I'd have to do would be to integrate them in the repo I guess
2016-10-04T16:06:31Z taylan: and older SRFIs have no reason not to be implemented as R7RS libraries
2016-10-04T16:10:02Z wasamasa: taylan: hmk, if you say so
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2016-10-04T16:10:20Z wasamasa: taylan: I recall you declaring losing your faith in r7rs
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2016-10-04T16:14:42Z taylan: r7rs-large.  I've lost interest in taking part in it because it seems it's really difficult to agree even on things that one might expect to be very obvious.
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2016-10-04T16:45:55Z ecraven: taylan: I'm hoping that by now making *everything* into an r7rs-large library, at some point in the future things will be reduced to a reasonable set
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2016-10-04T17:00:45Z pierpa: "It is a ways off before we see guile in emacs.  Year minimum." Usenet post, Date: 1999/07/15
2016-10-04T17:01:37Z taylan: pierpa: :D
2016-10-04T17:02:31Z taylan: if only somebody were to work on it (coughs at self), it might get done in ~5 years from the current status
2016-10-04T17:03:13Z taylan: well, I'm not that good in C yet, nor in Guile's and Emacs's internals in particular, so my progress would be especially slow when compared to bipt
2016-10-04T17:03:13Z pierpa: IMO, there's no hope, even in 20 years
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2016-10-04T17:03:29Z taylan: pierpa: you know Guile-Emacs runs right now, just with issues?
2016-10-04T17:03:51Z pierpa: no, I'm not following the saga
2016-10-04T17:04:33Z pierpa: no hope not because of thechnical difficulties, I mean
2016-10-04T17:04:33Z taylan: runs ERC, Gnus, Dired, whatever.  what's left is solving the performance and memory usage bugs and misc. issues...
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2016-10-04T17:07:55Z taylan: maybe I should start using coke to ramp up my motivation.  all I do is slack recently.
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2016-10-04T17:18:11Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-10-04T17:18:50Z gnomon: taylan, is there anything I could do to help?
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2016-10-04T17:21:18Z taylan: gnomon: dunno how up to date this is: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GuileEmacsTodo
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2016-10-04T17:24:46Z gnomon: taylan, thank you.
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2016-10-04T18:27:05Z jcowan: taylan: Where are these deep disagreements about R7RS-large?  We had just one that I know of, the problem with inherited record types, which I temporarily banished (and may just leave in limbo if nobody complains).
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2016-10-04T18:35:53Z ecraven: jcowan: I'm not taylan, but r7rs-large feels like a large heap of disconnected parts, not one nice whole so far. but that's still a lot better than the empty nothingness we have now :)
2016-10-04T18:38:26Z jcowan: Part of that is a process problem.  In order to do something this big, I have to work on the chunks separately without very much foreknowledge.
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2016-10-04T18:41:19Z ecraven: jcowan: I totally understand, if it were mere "design by committee", probably no-one would use it :-/ I'm really looking forward to the end result, I believe this is a good thing for Scheme, to gain a proper set of "standard" libraries (even if in a theoretical world they might be more unified in design)
2016-10-04T18:41:43Z ecraven: the scope of r7rs-large is more than CL, right?
2016-10-04T18:43:53Z pierpa: jcowan: are you aware that the SRFI mailing lists don't work well?
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2016-10-04T18:44:32Z pierpa: looking at the web site I see many messages that I haven't received by email. Just saying
2016-10-04T18:45:07Z jcowan: pierpa: No, I wasn't aware.  Please send an email to srfi-editors@srfi.schemers.org, as I have no control/influence over the SRFI system.
2016-10-04T18:45:17Z pierpa: ok
2016-10-04T18:46:10Z jcowan: ecraven: Well, it depends on what gets voted in, of course.  I would say that if everything goes in, it will be bigger and more diverse than the CL standard, though not necessarily than particular CL (or Scheme) implementations.
2016-10-04T18:46:21Z jcowan: In particular, I am not planning to include anything like CLOS.
2016-10-04T18:47:13Z jcowan: I really need at some point to write a coherent roadmap, but it's difficult, as I am by no means BDFL.
2016-10-04T18:47:21Z ecraven: jcowan: I think some sort of standardized posix support and threading alone would be a huge benefit
2016-10-04T18:47:37Z jcowan: Olin told me he is working on Posix.
2016-10-04T18:48:00Z ecraven: cool
2016-10-04T18:48:11Z jcowan: At an early stage the committee voted not to work on Posix, but I'm not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth, provided it actually arrives in a timely way.
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2016-10-04T18:49:02Z ecraven: just "standard" stuff like file access, directory listings, starting processes.. having a portable way to do that would make "scripting" much easier... though I realise that "standard" doesn't make it "easy" in any way
2016-10-04T18:49:45Z jcowan nods.
2016-10-04T18:50:05Z jcowan: Given scsh, if Olin can do it anyone can.  Of course, he won't be able to write a portable implementation.
2016-10-04T18:50:33Z ecraven: jcowan: personally, I don't think that's necessary.. just having the same procedure names and arguments would be a huge boon
2016-10-04T18:50:44Z jcowan: I think when r7rs-large is done it will subsume r6rswith just a few exceptions.
2016-10-04T18:51:16Z ecraven: do you have an eta for the next docket's vote?
2016-10-04T18:52:17Z jcowan: No, it depends on how fast we get through the current group of SRFIs, which is only partly under my control
2016-10-04T18:52:56Z jcowan: We may not have syntax-case (but will have some kind of low-level macros) and very likely will not have custom ports (it is very hard to make them portable unless I have a conceptual breakthrough).
2016-10-04T18:53:27Z jcowan: On threading I have personal views which make it impossible for me to accept plain SRFI 18
2016-10-04T18:54:26Z jcowan: I think shared-almost-everything threads with mutexes and condition variables are a really bad basis for concurrency.
2016-10-04T18:55:03Z jcowan: I want us to have mailboxes and shared-nothing-by-convention threads (which might be implemented as truly shared-nothing processes).
2016-10-04T18:55:05Z ecraven: I've heard good things about CML
2016-10-04T18:55:17Z jcowan: So have I, that's what Racket uses.  I need to look into it further.
2016-10-04T18:55:52Z ecraven: it would be good if the specification of threads would *allow* actual OS threads (not mandate them, but at least not prevent them)
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2016-10-04T18:56:19Z ecraven: there was an article not long ago about Golang vs. CML.. the conclusion seemed to be that both are good concurrency models, if a bit different
2016-10-04T18:57:36Z ecraven: also maybe termite is interesting
2016-10-04T18:57:50Z gwatt: ecraven: http://wingolog.org/archives/2016/09/20/concurrent-ml-versus-go ?
2016-10-04T18:58:18Z ecraven: gwatt: thanks, that was it! I didn't remember it was wingo who wrote that
2016-10-04T18:58:44Z wingo: since then i am very much in the cml camp i think
2016-10-04T18:58:46Z gwatt: he wrote a followup too
2016-10-04T19:00:25Z wingo: but that's on a practical level, there are many possible primitives underneath.  the ones i am working with are pthreads, atomic variables, delimited continuations, and epoll/kqueue
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2016-10-04T19:12:06Z pierpa: wingo: the Go people says they based their design on CSP: http://www.usingcsp.com/ is a worthy read
2016-10-04T19:14:32Z wingo: tx for the pointer
2016-10-04T19:14:44Z wingo: cml is also a csp system afaiu
2016-10-04T19:16:35Z pierpa: afaiu CSP is a simpler model (but I haven't studied cml other than in a superficial way)
2016-10-04T19:17:22Z pierpa: basically CSP is channels with share nothing between processes
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2016-10-04T19:31:51Z jcowan: wingo: that page is full of spam
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2016-10-04T19:32:51Z bsat98: https://dpaste.de/yiqT
2016-10-04T19:33:06Z bsat98: is the reason foo1 works there because define-syntax doesn't introduce a new lexical scope?
2016-10-04T19:33:47Z bsat98: foo2 doesn't get bound in the outer scope but foo1 does
2016-10-04T19:38:26Z bsat98: also i notice in the spec for the patterns it actually specifies the identifier in the first position instead of _
2016-10-04T19:38:38Z bsat98: is that idiomatic or just for clarity
2016-10-04T19:39:53Z pierpa: some people prefer to put the name other prefer _. I don't know if one is more used than the other
2016-10-04T19:40:35Z pierpa: anyway, it does not matter what you put there
2016-10-04T19:43:55Z bsat98: so my first question is pretty obvious now
2016-10-04T19:44:16Z bsat98: it's just a macro so obviously doesn't add a scope
2016-10-04T19:44:59Z jcowan: That's how define-syntax works.  Let-syntax and let*-syntax do create a scope.
2016-10-04T19:45:31Z bsat98: i see
2016-10-04T19:45:44Z bsat98: this example in the spec was neat
2016-10-04T19:45:44Z bsat98: https://dpaste.de/TwRN
2016-10-04T19:46:33Z bsat98: the 2 ellipsis is weird though
2016-10-04T19:46:49Z bsat98: can't there only be 1 car
2016-10-04T19:49:22Z bsat98: i actually have no idea what's happening there
2016-10-04T19:50:37Z jcowan: bsat98: (... ...) means literal ellipsis, so it is used in nested macros.
2016-10-04T19:50:49Z jcowan: the outer level transforms it into ..., which the lower level then sees
2016-10-04T19:51:58Z bsat98: oh i see
2016-10-04T19:52:05Z bsat98: thanks
2016-10-04T20:03:14Z bsat98: if it was 3 deep would it be (... (... ...))
2016-10-04T20:04:00Z bsat98: or would the first one transform that to just ... too
2016-10-04T20:04:04Z wingo: pierpa: tx again for that usingcsp link!  good things to chew on.
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2016-10-04T20:05:13Z bsat98: like the spec says it recursively applies the expansion, but i don't see how else you would get >2 macros nested
2016-10-04T20:05:29Z bsat98: with ellipsis
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2016-10-04T20:16:11Z pierpa: wingo: glad you like it. That book is a classic.
2016-10-04T20:26:13Z jcowan: bsat98: Yes, (... (... ...)) looks right to me.  There is another approach, which is to place your own choice of ellipsis as the first arg to syntax-rules, just before the list of literals.
2016-10-04T20:26:20Z jcowan: people often use *** or ::: for this
2016-10-04T20:30:19Z bsat98:  jcowan: like syntax-rules ::: () ?
2016-10-04T20:30:41Z jcowan: Yes
2016-10-04T20:30:52Z bsat98: then it won't need to be nested like that?
2016-10-04T20:33:09Z jcowan: Yes, then you don't need the (... ...) idea
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2016-10-05T06:36:17Z ecraven: how do you remember the order of parameters to the function in `reduce' or `fold'?
2016-10-05T06:36:24Z ecraven: I always get confused which is the accumulator :-/
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2016-10-05T06:53:00Z turbofail: well for fold it's usually in the same order you would use for `cons'
2016-10-05T06:53:08Z turbofail: i.e. accumulator goes second
2016-10-05T06:53:41Z turbofail: hence why they usually call the function argument to fold `kons'
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2016-10-05T06:55:25Z ecraven: turbofail: thanks, that is a great way to remember it!
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2016-10-05T06:57:22Z turbofai`: for `reduce' i have no idea, i never use that in scheme
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2016-10-05T06:57:59Z turbofai`: in other lisps though `reduce' usually has the accumulator first
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2016-10-06T01:20:57Z Dijkstra: Is Brandan Eich around? I have to warn him about a flaw in his design of with!
2016-10-06T01:21:37Z Dijkstra has been stuck in traffic since 1995.
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2016-10-06T01:52:58Z qu1j0t3: Dijkstra: he's on twitter.
2016-10-06T01:54:03Z Dijkstra: qu1j0t3: He came in here in late 1994 bragging he was building a mainstream Scheme. I have to stop him!
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2016-10-06T02:05:02Z qu1j0t3: he couldn't have failed more spectacularly.
2016-10-06T02:05:10Z qu1j0t3: so relax.
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2016-10-06T17:05:17Z jcowan: hey ho
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2016-10-06T17:27:14Z ecraven: hey
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2016-10-06T19:27:50Z ecraven: is the author of cyclone here?
2016-10-06T19:28:32Z wasamasa: I've seen them on #chicken before
2016-10-06T19:28:50Z ecraven: thanks
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2016-10-06T21:08:29Z DeeEff[m]: ecraven: IIRC you're looking for justinethier
2016-10-06T21:08:32Z DeeEff[m]: he seems to be in this channel
2016-10-06T21:09:31Z ecraven: DeeEff[m]: thanks! I've told the bot in chicken to tell him later :)
2016-10-06T21:09:40Z ecraven: in #chicken, actually :)
2016-10-06T21:10:15Z DeeEff[m]: Ah, good ol' vandusen
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2016-10-07T20:11:07Z names: karswell cross askatasuna hive-mind na_th_an emma aap bars0 taij33n Ravana jackdaniel jim pygospa snits gf3 Wojciech_K sosho clog_ dpk MorTal1ty stephe civodul abbe cameronfr stepnem octo_ vikraman rudybot fadein cantstanya alezost jao juanfra cjh` profan m1dnight_ shymega taylan enderby Guest44612 rotty gnomon Naraka DeeEff Khisanth githogori aking pierpa``` ym foof tessier cmatei vifino wasamasa momofarm emmanueloga makufiru GGMethos_ rgrinberg juhovh
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2016-10-08T14:25:17Z C-Keen: wingo: is the link spam in your blog's comments some kind of running gag? :)
2016-10-08T14:25:56Z C-Keen: wingo: I am referring to these comments here http://wingolog.org/archives/2016/09/21/is-go-an-acceptable-cml
2016-10-08T14:28:16Z qu1j0t3: running gag? just looks like link spam to me...
2016-10-08T14:28:47Z C-Keen: I guess the blog's becomming too famous
2016-10-08T14:29:02Z C-Keen: time to fall back to gopher
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2016-10-09T09:00:46Z Hestben: Hey guys. I get "Unbound variable: x" when using the procedure "double" defined in http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-1.41 and my "inc" defined as "(define inc (lambda (x) (+ x 1)))". What am I doing wrong?
2016-10-09T09:01:17Z Hestben: My scheme is MIT/GNU Scheme microcode 15.3
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2016-10-09T09:23:05Z jim: would I be correct in assuming that methods of a class have to specify they're taking self?
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2016-10-09T09:33:49Z wasamasa: Hestben: works fine here
2016-10-09T09:34:17Z wasamasa: (begin (define (double f) (lambda (x) (f (f x)))) (define (inc x) (+ x 1)) ((double inc) 0))
2016-10-09T09:35:59Z Hestben: wasamasa: Your definition works for me as well. Then something is wrong with my file where it is defined, then.
2016-10-09T09:37:15Z jim: oops wrong channel sorry
2016-10-09T09:37:28Z Hestben: wasamasa: nevermind. I had misspelled "lambda" as "lamdba".
2016-10-09T09:37:53Z jim: even harder to pronounce
2016-10-09T09:37:55Z Hestben: wasamasa: strange that the error message is only about x, though.
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2016-10-09T10:06:17Z wingo: C-Keen: i need to fix that :)
2016-10-09T10:06:30Z wingo: the link spam
2016-10-09T10:06:39Z wingo: strange, as all links are rel=nofollow, but whatevs
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2016-10-09T14:56:02Z YottaByte: when you have variables (is that what they're called?) with question marks at the end, is that just for readability purposes?
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2016-10-09T14:57:48Z ijp: yes, it also typically signifies that it is either a boolean value, or a function which returns a boolean value
2016-10-09T14:58:09Z ijp: e.g. you might have (define ready? #t) but not (define ready? "you betcha")
2016-10-09T14:58:39Z ijp: in languages with less liberal identifiers, you might see is_ready instead of ready?
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2016-10-09T15:15:52Z pjb: YottaByte: you may also see question marks in pattern matching expressions, to denote variables, instead of literal symbols. But usually, as prefix.
2016-10-09T15:18:23Z YottaByte: I see, thanks
2016-10-09T15:31:18Z qu1j0t3: suffix?
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2016-10-10T02:21:31Z YottaByte: so something like (define (p) (p)) and then using this like (test 0 (p)) in application-order evaluation just causes a stack overflow, right? it just keeps getting deeper in deeper in (p)?
2016-10-10T02:21:38Z YottaByte: can someone explain that in a better way?
2016-10-10T02:22:18Z YottaByte: test is just a procedure that checks if the first parameter is 0 (from sicp)
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2016-10-10T06:13:07Z noethics: does anyone know if it's defined what should happen if you do something like #\non-existent
2016-10-10T06:13:28Z ecraven: noethics: probably implementation-dependent
2016-10-10T06:13:49Z ecraven: MIT/GNU Scheme says  ;The object "non-existent", passed as an argument to name->char, is not in the correct range.
2016-10-10T06:13:54Z noethics: chez seems to just fail
2016-10-10T06:13:58Z noethics: in a weird way
2016-10-10T06:14:10Z noethics: and r7rs spec doesn't say if it's an error as far as i can tell
2016-10-10T06:14:48Z noethics: ecraven, but ok thanks
2016-10-10T06:15:42Z ecraven: not sure what chez does, it seems to just hang on input
2016-10-10T06:15:49Z noethics: yeah
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2016-10-10T06:23:16Z noethics: i wonder if anyone has ever grokd page 66 of r7rs ;D
2016-10-10T06:23:20Z noethics: besides alex shinn
2016-10-10T06:27:00Z noethics: it's like lambda calculus infused with some arcane arbitrary syntax and a variable that doesn't mean anything
2016-10-10T06:27:25Z ecraven: noethics: I did understand the one in r5rs, long ago, I think :)
2016-10-10T06:27:30Z noethics: :P
2016-10-10T06:28:30Z ecraven: it's fairly normal denotational semantics, I think
2016-10-10T06:29:59Z noethics: \sigma (new \sigma | L) [ 2 ] = false
2016-10-10T06:30:08Z noethics: i got lost at the damn axiom
2016-10-10T06:30:27Z noethics: is that application of sigma to (new \sigma | L)
2016-10-10T06:30:54Z noethics: (page 65)
2016-10-10T06:31:05Z noethics: a few paragraphs above abstract syntax
2016-10-10T06:31:59Z ecraven: I'd say yes :)
2016-10-10T06:32:08Z ecraven: the down array is sequence indexing
2016-10-10T06:32:21Z noethics: yeah
2016-10-10T06:32:27Z noethics: but the application makes no sense to me
2016-10-10T06:32:31Z ecraven: it might be sequencing
2016-10-10T06:32:34Z ecraven: not application
2016-10-10T06:33:59Z ecraven: hm... I don't have reference [36], unfortunately
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2016-10-10T11:16:58Z ovenpasta: hi, there is some effort in creating a universal ffi interface for scheme?
2016-10-10T11:17:17Z ovenpasta: some kind of ffi srfi :)
2016-10-10T11:18:07Z ovenpasta: after all, c is always the same, and this could bring a lot of libraries to all scheme implementations
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2016-10-10T11:29:53Z ecraven: that would be great, but I haven't heard of any such effort
2016-10-10T11:30:07Z ecraven: the first divide might be ffis that need a compiler, and ones that don't
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2016-10-10T11:43:32Z wasamasa: doesn't r6rs have such a thing?
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2016-10-10T12:13:36Z ovenpasta: this is from chez scheme http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/ftypes.pdf
2016-10-10T12:17:12Z ovenpasta: I think it would be enough to create a compatibility layer taking into account as much implementations and possible, and encourage implementations to support it
2016-10-10T12:17:38Z ecraven: ovenpasta: I'm not sure there is any common ground between all ffis
2016-10-10T12:19:27Z ovenpasta: why only common lisp succeed in this kind of things? :)
2016-10-10T12:19:55Z ecraven: ovenpasta: well, in CL you *can* actually write portable programs :) maybe with r7rs-large this will be possible in Scheme too
2016-10-10T12:20:20Z jackdaniel: ovenpasta: regarding matching various implementations, CL has special libraries being portability layers
2016-10-10T12:20:27Z ecraven: ovenpasta: also, feel free to design a common ffi, and tell jcowan to put it into an r7rs-large docket.. it will be voted over, if it is accepted, it will be a part of r7rs-large
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2016-10-10T12:20:56Z jackdaniel: which provides the least common denominator functionality
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2016-10-10T12:21:13Z ovenpasta: :):)
2016-10-10T12:21:45Z ovenpasta: also there is a nice tool I've used called c2ffi , from the common lisp world, that uses clang to generate a json file with the description of c headers
2016-10-10T12:22:08Z jackdaniel: also having ffi isn't such a big win in practice, because foreign libraries usually are written in different style, so using them is more painful than native libraries (what leads to less common usage)
2016-10-10T12:22:10Z ovenpasta: then you process that file to generate a scm file with actual declarations, or on the fly
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2016-10-10T12:22:32Z ecraven: jackdaniel: I don't fully agree on that, oftentimes you have no choice.. and C libraries are ok to interface with
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2016-10-10T12:23:03Z jackdaniel: ecraven: yes, I agree with that, I'm just saying that it's not as big win as it seems at a first glance
2016-10-10T12:23:35Z ecraven: jackdaniel: well, if you need something like opengl, it's a huge win :)
2016-10-10T12:23:36Z jackdaniel: but it's better to have ffi than not to have it of course :-)
2016-10-10T12:23:44Z ecraven: but I agree that it's not the solution to all problems
2016-10-10T12:23:50Z ovenpasta: for system libraries or very spread libraries could be ok, as an example, yes opengl, sdl, cairo (stuff I'm using :))
2016-10-10T12:24:12Z ecraven: even crypto stuff, you don't want to implement that yourself again (incorrectly)
2016-10-10T12:24:25Z ovenpasta: libcurl
2016-10-10T12:24:27Z ovenpasta: hehe
2016-10-10T12:24:52Z jackdaniel: if it's reasonable though implementing native stuff is better – simpler building process
2016-10-10T12:25:00Z jackdaniel: I have these problems a lot with ECL on Android
2016-10-10T12:25:08Z ecraven: yes, I agree
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2016-10-10T12:25:20Z ecraven: in a perfect world, it would be scheme all the way down
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2016-10-10T12:25:25Z jackdaniel: C libraries need to be cross-compiled, while native stuff may be compiled directly on the device
2016-10-10T12:25:49Z ecraven: jackdaniel: but the interesting libraries are mostly those already available on the device, are they not?
2016-10-10T12:26:38Z jackdaniel: ecraven: if you develop application via swank (CL's geiser counterpart) on Common Lisp running on the device it's good to have ability to just load libraries (i.e via Quicklisp)
2016-10-10T12:26:47Z jackdaniel: I hope it's not too offtopic for the channel?
2016-10-10T12:27:20Z ecraven: jackdaniel: yea, I wish there were a way to develop scheme programs like that... I've used kawa to write android apps, but never got an interactive repl on the device
2016-10-10T12:27:27Z ecraven: (remotely, not on-screen)
2016-10-10T12:27:49Z jackdaniel: really nice feature, next thing I plan to work on is java ffi (via jni)
2016-10-10T12:28:11Z jackdaniel: so I will be able to call actual Android methods from REPL :)
2016-10-10T12:28:27Z ecraven: nice
2016-10-10T12:28:29Z ecraven: kawa does that
2016-10-10T12:28:46Z jackdaniel haven't used kawa so far
2016-10-10T12:28:57Z ovenpasta: maybe it would be nice to write a c compiler in scheme , that generates scheme or / and native / byte code
2016-10-10T12:29:11Z ovenpasta: heheeheh >:)
2016-10-10T12:29:12Z ecraven: I liked it a lot, if I needed to interop with java, that's the Scheme I'd use
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2016-10-11T12:54:10Z lalex: which is the common convention for compiler internal globals*
2016-10-11T12:54:30Z lalex: for example, like a compile time syntax t hat returns the current linux number in the source file
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2016-10-11T13:53:58Z ecraven: do people here use anaphoric if a lot?
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2016-10-11T14:20:44Z lalex: ecraven: why are you asking?
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2016-10-11T14:21:34Z wasamasa: you're in #scheme, so the answer is obviously no
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2016-10-11T14:25:37Z lalex: introducing implicit symbols like "it" just beg for clashes. I kind of like how Perl uses $_ as "it" sometimes. But it's a dynamic variable there, with the known problems.
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2016-10-11T14:30:28Z ecraven: I keep thinking it would be nice to have :)
2016-10-11T14:31:10Z lalex: yes, but it would be highly unexpected in hygenic scheme code. however, I use non-hygenic macros sometimes too.
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2016-10-11T17:02:14Z jmd: Is there a way to redirect the output of (system "..") to a port ?
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2016-10-11T17:12:01Z ecraven: which Scheme?
2016-10-11T17:12:15Z jmd: ecraven: Guile
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2016-10-11T17:13:43Z ecraven: maybe ask in #guile, but I'd guess there's another procedure that lets you capture output
2016-10-11T17:14:11Z jmd: #guile seems to be preoccupied at the moment.
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2016-10-11T17:22:00Z gwatt: jmd: open-pipe* in (ice-9 popen)
2016-10-11T17:22:01Z gwatt: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/docs/master/guile.html/Pipes.html#FOOT23
2016-10-11T17:22:01Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/wh7hA4c6z4
2016-10-11T17:22:25Z jmd: gwatt: No.  I tried that.
2016-10-11T17:22:56Z jmd: What that does it to execute a command and make its output available in a new port.
2016-10-11T17:23:21Z davexunit: that is the correct way
2016-10-11T17:24:06Z davexunit: the 'system' procedure is a wrapper around the 'system' function in libc.  capturing output is not a use-case.
2016-10-11T17:24:21Z jmd: But then, 1) I will have to explicitly read the port; and 2) the results wonly be available until the command is complete.
2016-10-11T17:24:34Z davexunit: the results are available as soon as they are written to the port
2016-10-11T17:25:07Z davexunit: and yes, there is no convenience procedure for this, but it's only a few lines of code.
2016-10-11T17:25:16Z davexunit: so you can easily make your own.
2016-10-11T17:25:37Z jmd: I'll have to fork/exec I suppose.
2016-10-11T17:25:39Z davexunit: the purpose of 'system' and 'system*' is to run an arbitrary program and return its exit status.
2016-10-11T17:27:03Z davexunit: you don't need to fork/exec with guile's pipes
2016-10-11T17:27:15Z davexunit: it launches the subprocess for you
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2016-10-11T17:28:04Z jmd: But then I'd still need to spawn thread.
2016-10-11T17:28:15Z gwatt: bit of a shame r6rs specifies a with-output-to-file but not with-output-to-port
2016-10-11T17:28:41Z jmd: gwatt: Yes.  That is what I was really looking for.
2016-10-11T17:29:09Z davexunit: jmd: if you want to do something else in the meantime, yes.
2016-10-11T17:29:18Z davexunit: but that is the case with 'system' and friends, too.
2016-10-11T17:30:02Z davexunit: to do otherwise needs an async i/o framework.
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2016-10-11T17:33:23Z gwatt: jmd: http://termbin.com/2onu
2016-10-11T17:34:36Z davexunit: gwatt: that implementation is rather incomplete because it doesn't successfully restore the current output port in the case of a non-local exit from 'thunk'
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2016-10-11T17:38:20Z gwatt: that's true
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2016-10-11T18:01:07Z jmd: davexunit: But set-current-output-port should affect execlp should it not?
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2016-10-12T10:30:36Z Nathuram: Hi
2016-10-12T10:30:44Z Nathuram: Can anyone help me understand the coin change problem
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2016-10-12T10:37:43Z wasamasa: to understand recursion, one must understand recursion
2016-10-12T10:38:34Z Nathuram: I just want to understand how this part is true " (map surf-to '("http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme" "http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/" "http://schemers.org/" "http://community.schemewiki.org/" "http:>>
2016-10-12T10:38:35Z Nathuram: 16:00:11      --> | Nathuram (~utkarsh@182.70.208.190) has joined #scheme                                                                   │ _0x5eb_
2016-10-12T10:38:37Z Nathuram: 16:00:11       -- | Topic for #scheme is "(map surf-to '("http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme" "http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/"       │ aap
2016-10-12T10:38:39Z jackdaniel: recursion: see recursion.
2016-10-12T10:38:40Z Nathuram:                   | "http://schemers.org/" "http://community.schemewiki.org/" "http://library.readscheme.org/"                              │ abbe
2016-10-12T10:38:41Z Nathuram:                   | "http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/" "http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/"                    │ aeth
2016-10-12T10:38:43Z Nathuram:                   | "http://www.htdp.org/" "http://www.scheme.com/tspl/"))"                                                                 │ aking
2016-10-12T10:38:45Z Nathuram: 16:00:11       -- | Topic set by Riastradh on Fri, 25 Apr 2014 19:20:49                                                                     │ akkad
2016-10-12T10:38:47Z Nathuram: 16:00:11       -- | Channel #scheme: 201 nicks (0 ops, 0 voices, 201 normals)                                                               │ amoe_
2016-10-12T10:38:49Z Nathuram: 16:00:16       -- | Channel created on Sun, 26 Nov 2006 12:12:46                                                                            │ antoszka
2016-10-12T10:38:52Z Nathuram: 16:01:13 Nathuram | Hi                                                                                                                      │ aries_liuxueyang
2016-10-12T10:38:53Z Nathuram: 16:01:21 Nathuram | Can anyone help me understand the coin change problem                                                                   │ ArneBab
2016-10-12T10:38:55Z Nathuram: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - │ ASau
2016-10-12T10:38:57Z Nathuram: 16:03:21      --> | ASau (~user@netbsd/developers/asau) has joined #scheme                                                                  │ askatasuna
2016-10-12T10:38:59Z Nathuram: 16:03:45      <-- | leppie (~lolcow@169-0-101-178.ip.afrihost.co.za) has quit                                                               │ asumu
2016-10-12T10:39:01Z Nathuram: 16:04:15      --> | jeapostrophe (~jay@pool-98-118-113-97.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) has joined #scheme                                       │ averell
2016-10-12T10:39:03Z Nathuram: 16:04:15      <-- | jeapostrophe (~jay@pool-98-118-113-97.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) has quit (Changing host)                                 │ bairyn
2016-10-12T10:39:05Z Nathuram: 16:04:15      --> | jeapostrophe (~jay@racket/jeapostrophe) has joined #scheme                                                              │ balkamos
2016-10-12T10:39:08Z Nathuram: 16:08:05      --> | leppie (~lolcow@169-0-101-178.ip.afrihost.co.za) has joined #scheme                                                     │ bars0_
2016-10-12T10:39:09Z Nathuram: 16:08:20 wasamasa | to understand recursion, one must understand recursion                                                                  │ benaiah
2016-10-12T10:39:11Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ bjz
2016-10-12T10:39:13Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ Blkt
2016-10-12T10:39:15Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ Blukunfando
2016-10-12T10:39:17Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ brendyyn
2016-10-12T10:39:19Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ C-Keen
2016-10-12T10:39:21Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ cameronfr
2016-10-12T10:39:23Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ cantstanya
2016-10-12T10:39:25Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ carc
2016-10-12T10:39:27Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ ccl-logbot
2016-10-12T10:39:29Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ chazu
2016-10-12T10:39:31Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ choas
2016-10-12T10:39:33Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ cibs
2016-10-12T10:39:35Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ civodul
2016-10-12T10:39:37Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ cjh`
2016-10-12T10:39:39Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ cky
2016-10-12T10:39:41Z jackdaniel: ./vote kick Nathuram
2016-10-12T10:39:42Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ clog
2016-10-12T10:39:43Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ cmatei
2016-10-12T10:39:45Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ cojy
2016-10-12T10:39:47Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ copec
2016-10-12T10:39:49Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ CORDIC
2016-10-12T10:39:51Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ cromachina
2016-10-12T10:39:53Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ cross
2016-10-12T10:39:55Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ CustosL1men
2016-10-12T10:39:56Z jackdaniel: ./ignore works too
2016-10-12T10:39:57Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ dan64
2016-10-12T10:39:59Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ davexunit
2016-10-12T10:40:01Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ DeeEff
2016-10-12T10:40:03Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ defanor
2016-10-12T10:40:05Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ DerGuteMoritz
2016-10-12T10:40:07Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ DGASAU
2016-10-12T10:40:09Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ dmiles
2016-10-12T10:40:11Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ dpk
2016-10-12T10:40:13Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ drot
2016-10-12T10:40:15Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ dsp
2016-10-12T10:40:17Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ eagleflo
2016-10-12T10:40:19Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ ec
2016-10-12T10:40:21Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ ec\
2016-10-12T10:40:23Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ ecraven
2016-10-12T10:40:26Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ elflng
2016-10-12T10:40:27Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ eli
2016-10-12T10:40:29Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ eMBee
2016-10-12T10:40:31Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ emma
2016-10-12T10:40:33Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ emmanueloga
2016-10-12T10:40:35Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ eska
2016-10-12T10:40:37Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ evhan
2016-10-12T10:40:39Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ fadein
2016-10-12T10:40:41Z dpk: my goodness
2016-10-12T10:40:41Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ fgudin_
2016-10-12T10:40:43Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ fiddlerwoaroof
2016-10-12T10:40:45Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ finnrobi_
2016-10-12T10:40:47Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ fizzie
2016-10-12T10:40:49Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ foof
2016-10-12T10:40:51Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ ft
2016-10-12T10:40:53Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ gabot
2016-10-12T10:40:54Z gabot: Nathuram: what?
2016-10-12T10:40:55Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ gf3
2016-10-12T10:40:57Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ ggherdov
2016-10-12T10:40:59Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ GGMethos
2016-10-12T10:41:01Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ githogori
2016-10-12T10:41:03Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ gko
2016-10-12T10:41:05Z Nathuram:                                                                                                                                             │ gnomon        ++
2016-10-12T10:41:07Z Nathuram: [16:09] [3] [irc/irc.freenode.net] 2:#scheme(+cnt){203}
2016-10-12T10:41:08Z ecraven: erraneous paste?
2016-10-12T10:41:09Z Nathuram: [Nathuram(i)] I just want to understand how this part is true "
2016-10-12T10:41:11Z Nathuram: oops
2016-10-12T10:41:13Z Nathuram: sorry copy paste error
2016-10-12T10:41:15Z Nathuram: it was an accident
2016-10-12T10:41:17Z Nathuram: jee
2016-10-12T10:41:19Z Nathuram: z
2016-10-12T10:41:23Z Nathuram: yep
2016-10-12T10:41:25Z Nathuram: I'm on a terminal irc client
2016-10-12T10:41:27Z Nathuram: and Ctrl C doesnt work
2016-10-12T10:41:29Z Nathuram: Anyway
2016-10-12T10:41:31Z ecraven: at least weechat is properly rate limiting
2016-10-12T10:41:43Z Nathuram: Can anyone help me understand the coin change problem
2016-10-12T10:41:48Z Nathuram: As described in SICP
2016-10-12T10:42:47Z Nathuram: specifically the part where it says that
2016-10-12T10:43:02Z Nathuram: "The nymber of ways to change amount a using n kinds of coins equal
2016-10-12T10:43:23Z Nathuram: 1) the number of ways to change amount a using all but the first kind of coin
2016-10-12T10:43:24Z Nathuram: plus
2016-10-12T10:43:44Z Nathuram: 2) the number of ways to change amount a - d using all n kind of coins, where d is the denomination of the first kind of coin
2016-10-12T10:43:48Z Nathuram: "
2016-10-12T10:43:49Z Nathuram:  
2016-10-12T10:43:55Z Nathuram: I just don't get how this works
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2016-10-12T10:47:27Z wasamasa: at this point I grab a piece of paper and start noting how a simple and a less simple "solution" to the problem looks like
2016-10-12T10:49:42Z cameronfr: Nathamuram: intuitively, I think it's just saying that the number of ways to count an amount of change is equal to (amount of ways to count change assuming you use the one coin) + (amount of ways to count change assuming you don't use the one coin)
2016-10-12T10:49:53Z cameronfr: *nathuram ^
2016-10-12T10:50:23Z Nathuram: Yes but how does this equation work
2016-10-12T10:50:42Z Nathuram: How would counting the number of ways you can change one way, and then another, and thhen summing them up
2016-10-12T10:50:56Z Nathuram: give us the exact number of way we can change it with
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2016-10-12T14:47:47Z jcowan: hey ho
2016-10-12T14:48:24Z ecraven: hey :)
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2016-10-12T15:12:58Z samth: wingo: about your blog post
2016-10-12T15:13:31Z samth: wingo: i think your characterization of 3 different styles is reasonable, but the 3rd style isn't "shared-nothing"
2016-10-12T15:13:56Z samth: in particular, neither Haskell nor Go nor Racket (or Gambit or other Schemes) are shared-nothing
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2016-10-12T16:03:25Z ijp: rudybot: implementations can be so selfish
2016-10-12T16:03:27Z rudybot: ijp: Well that's fair enough. People are selfish enough to write their own code with chars then, instead of using gchar, As God Intended
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2016-10-13T01:04:13Z n_blownapart: hi anyone here comment on emacs utility for learning scheme?
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2016-10-13T01:16:15Z DeeEff[m]: n_blownapart: emacs is not necessary for learning scheme
2016-10-13T01:16:53Z DeeEff[m]: using geiser for development can be nice, but any text editor that can match parens and a REPL that's easy enough to install is good enough to learn on
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2016-10-13T01:17:12Z DeeEff[m] taught himself scheme using vim + tmux + CHICKEN / Guile
2016-10-13T01:17:39Z n_blownapart: DeeEff[m]: thanks, at UC Berkeley a famous professor is a big advocate of emacs / scheme, not sure why.
2016-10-13T01:18:07Z DeeEff[m]: well emacs is built on top of emacs lisp, which like scheme is part of the lisp family of languages
2016-10-13T01:18:13Z DeeEff[m]: so the editor goes hand in hand
2016-10-13T01:18:41Z DeeEff[m]: a lot of people will tell you emacs is the only way to get into "serious" lisp development, but nowadays it's not a big deal IMO
2016-10-13T01:19:01Z n_blownapart: DeeEff[m]: thanks, hey I'm having a hell of a time with sicp. Only on problem 1.20 after months of work. any thoughts?
2016-10-13T01:19:32Z n_blownapart: not a programmer ^ but the math is getting easier
2016-10-13T01:19:41Z DeeEff[m]: Well it took me the better part of a summer to get through chapter 1, and then between the rest of my classes that semester after I worked through the rest
2016-10-13T01:19:58Z DeeEff[m]: the thing with SICP is that MIT students take it after a semester of calculus and some basic programming
2016-10-13T01:20:14Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: i think keep doing what you're doing. make progress, if you get stuck, ask for help
2016-10-13T01:20:49Z DeeEff[m]: If you just want to learn Scheme / recursion / functional programming, keep at it as much as you can (skipping symbolic differentiation may be worthwhile), but also check out "The Little Schemer" if it's not the math that's bogging you down
2016-10-13T01:21:06Z DeeEff[m]: the math mostly disappears into chapter 2 and beyond, and more general concepts start to come forward
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2016-10-13T01:21:36Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: DeeEff[m] word. do you mean if it *is* the math thats bogging me down?
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2016-10-13T01:22:04Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: that's not clear to me yet... :)
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2016-10-13T01:22:11Z DeeEff[m]: n_blownapart: no, if the it's the math bogging you down, then the little schemer won't bring too much to the table in terms of learning the language
2016-10-13T01:22:26Z DeeEff[m]: then you'd want to switch to a math textbook :P
2016-10-13T01:22:43Z n_blownapart: I'm in chapt 4 of little schemer.
2016-10-13T01:22:53Z DeeEff[m]: if it isn't the math that's bogging you down, but the language instead, then the little schemer will be very helpful in teaching some scheme
2016-10-13T01:23:35Z DeeEff[m]: ah, yeah, that's a good place to be. The Little Schemer is a very good way to get your feet wet with recursion and some of the basic constructs.
2016-10-13T01:23:53Z DeeEff[m]: The Seasoned Schemer follows up well afterwards.
2016-10-13T01:24:08Z n_blownapart: ok thanks DeeEff[m] qu1j0t3 I am working on the math with some people. I'm beginning to get recursion. very cool
2016-10-13T01:25:02Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: i notice that you really only pop in here like once a month. maybe you should just come in more frequently to discuss particular exercises. there is a lot of people to tap in here
2016-10-13T01:25:09Z DeeEff[m]: no worries. Like I said, once you hit chapter 2 the math starts to disappear a bit and isn't quite as hardcore. The picture language can be daunting but if you're using one of the Scheme's that supports the picture language (mit-scheme, racket, I think) then it shouldn't be too bad
2016-10-13T01:26:38Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: DeeEff[m] thanks. yeah I've been getting some in person help . I work on a college campus.
2016-10-13T01:27:04Z n_blownapart: + I don't like asking too many questions here that are basic but thanks qu1j0t3
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2016-10-13T01:37:49Z lgstate: what's the sicp equiv of "how to write a typed scheme" ?
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2016-10-13T01:56:47Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: hey could  I ask you something re: problem 1.20 ?
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2016-10-13T01:59:15Z n_blownapart: this is 1.20 's solution http://www.billthelizard.com/2010/01/sicp-exercise-120-gcd.html
2016-10-13T01:59:38Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: sure
2016-10-13T01:59:49Z n_blownapart: thanks one sec
2016-10-13T02:04:30Z n_blownapart: in the first longer blue box .. How is that constructed? ( on line 11 here) : https://www.refheap.com/123290
2016-10-13T02:04:47Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: ^
2016-10-13T02:05:47Z n_blownapart: I see that b goes to the a position. then its nested. thats confusing.
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2016-10-13T02:10:40Z qu1j0t3: well you can understand it as iterative
2016-10-13T02:11:23Z qu1j0t3: because it's tail recursive, you can look at it as not nested, but just sequential
2016-10-13T02:11:25Z n_blownapart: right so variables are updated without expansion
2016-10-13T02:11:44Z qu1j0t3: yeah, the activation is just with a new a and b, from that call
2016-10-13T02:12:23Z n_blownapart: so this is in the b parameter : (remainder 40 (remainder 206 40)
2016-10-13T02:12:33Z n_blownapart: how does that get there?
2016-10-13T02:13:02Z qu1j0t3: if i were sketching this I might list all the activations vertically then draw an arrow from the `b` in the call to the `a` in the new activation, and likewise from the remainder to the `b`
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2016-10-13T02:13:32Z qu1j0t3: so you'd end up with a list vertically, with a lot of diagonal arrows
2016-10-13T02:13:41Z qu1j0t3: no nesting
2016-10-13T02:15:39Z n_blownapart: ok what is that comment on line 13 of the paste? qu1j0t3
2016-10-13T02:16:27Z n_blownapart: is that 'remainder of 1'  ?
2016-10-13T02:16:43Z qu1j0t3: no
2016-10-13T02:16:59Z qu1j0t3: the point of the exercise is to count evaluations of `remainder` under applicative order and normal order.
2016-10-13T02:17:07Z qu1j0t3: so that comment is saying that it's been evaluated once
2016-10-13T02:17:28Z n_blownapart: oh the function remainder has been evaluated
2016-10-13T02:17:58Z qu1j0t3: yes
2016-10-13T02:18:25Z n_blownapart: ok thanks I see where this is going qu1j0t3
2016-10-13T02:20:16Z n_blownapart: this is essentially hand written to mimic the recursion . is that correct?
2016-10-13T02:21:02Z qu1j0t3: yes
2016-10-13T02:21:09Z qu1j0t3: but you don't have to deal with nesting, because it's tail recursive
2016-10-13T02:21:23Z qu1j0t3: as you observed, the a and b just get substituted each time and you evaluate from the top
2016-10-13T02:21:45Z qu1j0t3: the final value is just the value of the last activation of gcd
2016-10-13T02:21:51Z n_blownapart: I guess this is lazy evaluation. I was just reading about haskell qu1j0t3
2016-10-13T02:22:11Z qu1j0t3: Scheme is strict
2016-10-13T02:22:22Z qu1j0t3: except for special forms
2016-10-13T02:22:43Z qu1j0t3: which is i guess why it asks you to pay attention to evaluation rules for `if`
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2016-10-13T02:23:33Z n_blownapart: so you mean with if statements the remainder calculations are deferred in this rare case in scheme?
2016-10-13T02:25:04Z n_blownapart: *deferred in the case of an if statement I meant
2016-10-13T02:25:48Z n_blownapart: one thing, so this is essentially lazy eval?
2016-10-13T02:25:50Z qu1j0t3: actually i beg your pardon, now that i go read the linked text on the substitution model, yeah you would have to use nesting in that case
2016-10-13T02:26:12Z qu1j0t3: so your paste does that
2016-10-13T02:27:30Z qu1j0t3: ' This alternative ``fully expand and then reduce'' evaluation method is known as normal-order evaluation, in contrast to the ``evaluate the arguments and then apply'' method that the interpreter actually uses, which is called applicative-order evaluation. '
2016-10-13T02:28:22Z qu1j0t3: the point they are trying to make in the exercise is
2016-10-13T02:28:43Z qu1j0t3: that these two regimes will do different amounts of work
2016-10-13T02:28:56Z n_blownapart: right but the structure is still tail-recursive since no operations occur left of the gcd function calls
2016-10-13T02:29:05Z qu1j0t3: yes, it certainly is.
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2016-10-13T02:30:53Z qu1j0t3: i might have to do this exercise myself. i didn't commit anything to my repo for it
2016-10-13T02:31:05Z qu1j0t3: i must have done it on paper but because it didn't produce code...
2016-10-13T02:32:05Z n_blownapart: thanks qu1j0t3 some day soon I'd like to ask about the the prior little exercise in the book to this, where they bring up lame's theory. yeah try it , its different than hand-writing output. It threw me off a bit.
2016-10-13T02:33:06Z n_blownapart: It goes back to use binet's formula fibonacci. dang its rough they dont relent a bit in chapter one!
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2016-10-13T02:33:34Z qu1j0t3: haha
2016-10-13T02:33:37Z qu1j0t3: yeah it's a long chapter
2016-10-13T02:33:50Z n_blownapart: thanks a million gotta go. talk later.
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2016-10-13T02:39:47Z qu1j0t3: np
2016-10-13T02:40:05Z n_blownapart: pax
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2016-10-14T06:35:15Z des_consolado: Hey what's the connection between Chez Scheme and Cisco? I see that ChezScheme is here: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme on the Cisco GitHub, however I can't find any mention of what the history of the connection is (if any) anywhere? :O
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2016-10-14T06:37:51Z wasamasa: the author of chez scheme is employed by cisco, some day it got acquired by them, then years later open-sourced again
2016-10-14T06:38:04Z wasamasa: s/again//
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2016-10-14T06:39:24Z ecraven: I think it was just part of the entire company that got acquired. akeep mentioned that there's some use inside cisco for it that he didn't specify any closer :)
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2016-10-14T06:43:24Z des_consolado: Yeah I was just wondering if it's used in any of their stuff :D
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2016-10-14T06:54:52Z des_consolado: Hm I just started reading this "Structure & Interpretation of Computer Programs" and it uses Scheme. I'm running Archlinux. For Common Lisp I've used Emacs/SLIME/sbcl, for Clojure I've used Emacs/Cider, what do you guys use for Scheme? It looks like I already have the guile package installed from the repo's, this must have been a default with installing Arch maybe.
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2016-10-14T06:56:47Z des_consolado: oh guile isn't in base/base-devel... I must have installed it some other time, or maybe it was a dependency of something else
2016-10-14T06:57:23Z des_consolado: oh required by gdb and make
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2016-10-14T16:47:55Z kori: des_consolado: emacs/geiser/guile should be fine
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2016-10-14T17:18:28Z yottabyte: I'm using drrackets to work through sicp, is that all interpreted? I've saved some of my exercises and they save as like some .rct file or something (I forgot the extension exactly). Those are proprietary files, right? What's the standard scheme file extension?
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2016-10-14T17:30:31Z asumu: yottabyte: .rkt are Racket files. You can save them as .scm if you like and they should still run in DrRacket.
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2016-10-14T17:37:30Z jcowan: yottabyte: There is no standard Scheme extension:  various people use .scm or .ss for plain source and .sls for R6RS library code.  R7RS libraries can be .sld but not always.
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2016-10-14T17:58:22Z yottabyte: but how do I run them? do I just open in drracket and press the run button? but is that just interpreting it, or compiling?
2016-10-14T17:58:35Z yottabyte: I've only done java and c before, and that's compiled if I'm not mistaken
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2016-10-14T18:12:54Z pjb: yottabyte: in any case, lisp programs are usually "compiled" when you load the source file, and executed as binary programs. Interpreting the source code is rarely done nowadays (it's actuall easier to implement a compiler than an interpreter IMO).
2016-10-14T18:15:30Z yottabyte: isn't javascript on the browser interpreted?
2016-10-14T18:15:56Z qu1j0t3: JIT
2016-10-14T18:16:00Z gwatt: I think FF chrome and IE all use compilers now
2016-10-14T18:16:15Z qu1j0t3: java: also JIT to native. fwiw
2016-10-14T18:18:11Z yottabyte: is lisp jit?
2016-10-14T18:18:34Z gwatt: one could be.
2016-10-14T18:19:24Z gnomon: yottabyte, almost every browser includes an interpreter layer and a JIT layer.  Tracing optimizers seem to be very popular in that space these days too.
2016-10-14T18:19:32Z gwatt: The syntax/semantics of a language don't actually require a particular implementation. Just because a language is usually or always implemented one way doesn't exclude other implementations
2016-10-14T18:19:37Z yottabyte: how about scheme and drrackets sicp scheme
2016-10-14T18:20:16Z jcowan: yottabyte: See http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/CompilerAvailable for how different Schemes do things
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2016-10-14T18:21:29Z pjb: yottabyte: and compilers are fast enough that you easily can compile each expression at the REPL before executing it.
2016-10-14T18:22:05Z jcowan: Well, depends on the compiler.  That's not practical for Gambit, Stalin, or Chicken
2016-10-14T18:22:06Z pjb: The notion of compiler/interpreter (and all the 50 shades of grey in between) is entirely orthogonal to the dichotomy between batch processing and interactive processing (REPL).
2016-10-14T18:22:39Z pjb: Yes, I meant, some compilers are fast enough and can work efficiently on small pieces of code.
2016-10-14T18:23:06Z pjb: Of course, some other compilers are optimized for global analysis and batch processing.
2016-10-14T18:23:32Z jcowan nods.
2016-10-14T18:23:43Z gnomon nods.
2016-10-14T18:23:55Z yottabyte: interesting
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2016-10-14T18:24:38Z jcowan: I wrote a Stalin REPL in Chicken that actually does kick off the Stalin and gcc compilers whenever you type an expression to the REPL.  Definitions are stored and output before the expression, so it gives the feeling of a (rather slow) genuine REPL.
2016-10-14T18:24:41Z qu1j0t3 nods, in order not to be seen as strange
2016-10-14T18:24:56Z gnomon nods at qu1j0t3, who is definitely strange
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2016-10-14T18:25:12Z jcowan nods *because* he is strange
2016-10-14T18:25:21Z pjb: jcowan: yep, that's the curse of modern fast computers :-)
2016-10-14T18:25:32Z qu1j0t3 feels better about the general company, and smiles instead of nodding
2016-10-14T18:25:39Z jcowan smiles too
2016-10-14T18:25:43Z jcowan: (in RL)
2016-10-14T18:25:46Z pjb: jobs that would have taken three hours 30 years ago are under one second nowadays, and can become interactive :-)
2016-10-14T18:26:14Z yottabyte: how are Compilers to private bytecode different from native compilers?
2016-10-14T18:26:32Z jcowan: native compilers generate x86 or x86_64 or ARM machine code
2016-10-14T18:27:02Z yottabyte: ah
2016-10-14T18:27:14Z yottabyte: so should I be using those or is drracket sufficient enough?
2016-10-14T18:27:21Z yottabyte: I want to eventually get into some common lisp or clojure
2016-10-14T18:27:43Z pjb: Once upon a time, I had a DELL Lattitude 90ST laptop (pentium 90 MHz).  Compiling linux took 13 hours on it.  Then (7 years later), I bought an Athlon 1200 MHz desktop computer, and compiling Linux took less than 4 minutes.  The first few days, I typed all the commands twice, to be sure I actually ran them.
2016-10-14T18:27:48Z jcowan: If you have a well-debugged program and Racket is not fast enough, switch, but many things in Racket don't have equivalents elsewhere.
2016-10-14T18:28:22Z jcowan: But read https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations too.
2016-10-14T18:28:23Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/sbR7vrszxw
2016-10-14T18:28:37Z jcowan: including the comments
2016-10-14T18:29:53Z jcowan: "To choose an implementation is to choose a tribe. Since Scheme is so minimal, you begin to rely on extensions that are only present in your implementation, and so through code you bind yourself to a world of code, people, and practice, loosely bound to the rest of the Scheme world through a fictional first-person-plural. This is OK! "
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2016-10-15T06:32:45Z spauldo: I'm working with syntax-rules, and I need to pass a symbol name that's named in the pattern without substitution.  Any good way to do this?
2016-10-15T06:32:48Z spauldo: for example, I need to pass '(sym1 sym2 sym3) as actual symbols, not their values from the pattern
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2016-10-15T17:52:23Z teurastaja: is there a multi scheme compiler platform for matrix algebra on GPUs?
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2016-10-15T17:53:04Z teurastaja: (gauche array) is sub-optimal
2016-10-15T17:53:16Z teurastaja: handy but not fast at all
2016-10-15T17:54:22Z teurastaja: it could make me choose another language if i dont find GPU-based matrix libraries
2016-10-15T17:54:58Z teurastaja: but id like to use scheme for my AI robotics project
2016-10-15T17:56:07Z teurastaja: i could write some drivers but im not familiar with the SSE and MMX instruction set
2016-10-15T17:56:39Z teurastaja: and id prefer to use my time elsewhere as this is a huge project
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2016-10-16T10:25:35Z jmd: I have a procedure A bound to a symbol S.  I have passed S as an argument to procedure B.  From within B how can I apply A ?
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2016-10-16T10:43:12Z ym: (apply (eval 'S) '(a r g s))
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2016-10-16T10:52:45Z jmd: ym: I get "Wrong type to apply"
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2016-10-16T10:53:39Z ym: Do you pass a quoted list?
2016-10-16T10:54:05Z jmd: Ahh no.
2016-10-16T10:54:57Z jmd: But now I get Wrong number of arguments to #<procedure eval (_ _)>
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2016-10-16T10:57:33Z jmd: primitive-eval perhaps?
2016-10-16T10:59:09Z ym: Can you provide actual code you trying to eval?
2016-10-16T10:59:54Z jmd: I'll have to cut it down a bit...
2016-10-16T11:00:53Z ym: Seems like for R5RS you also should pass (scheme-report-environment 5) as second argument to eval.
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2016-10-16T11:14:05Z jmd: ym: http://paste.lisp.org/display/328699
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2016-10-16T11:24:23Z ym: (apply (eval accessor (scheme-report-environment 5)) '(realm)) ; doesn't work?
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2016-10-16T11:30:19Z jmd: ym: Different error:  Unbound variable: scheme-report-environment
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2016-10-16T11:38:02Z jmd: ym: And when I ad the necessary "use-modules (ice-9 rsr5)" the error becomes:  Unbound variable: xyzzy-default-domain
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2016-10-16T12:00:25Z ym: I don't have xyzzy functions definitions, so I can't check all your paste. But with (ice-9 r5rs) and (eval accessor (scheme-report-environment 5)) it seems to work for me.
2016-10-16T12:01:04Z jmd: Hmm.
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2016-10-16T14:56:34Z zacts: hi schemers
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2016-10-16T15:10:08Z qu1j0t3: zacts: o/
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2016-10-16T16:08:46Z zacts: o/ qu1j0t3
2016-10-16T16:10:46Z qu1j0t3: zacts: ltns
2016-10-16T16:11:24Z zacts: what does ltns mean?
2016-10-16T16:14:56Z qu1j0t3: long time, no see
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2016-10-16T17:02:43Z zacts: qu1j0t3: don't you use vim?
2016-10-16T17:02:48Z zacts: cool re ltns
2016-10-16T17:03:14Z zacts: iirc
2016-10-16T17:03:27Z ecraven: long term no service?
2016-10-16T17:03:51Z ecraven: long term no support, actually :)
2016-10-16T17:07:01Z qu1j0t3: zacts: yes I do use vim
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2016-10-16T17:07:33Z qu1j0t3: ecraven: leave the net, sir!
2016-10-16T17:07:38Z zacts: qu1j0t3: how do you get vim to work with scheme?
2016-10-16T17:07:42Z zacts: I have it setup a bit
2016-10-16T17:07:51Z qu1j0t3: zacts: ehhh well i don't write much scheme, but you could try the -l option
2016-10-16T17:07:54Z zacts: I'm using neoterm with nvim, and also I have an indent setup I made
2016-10-16T17:08:21Z qu1j0t3: zacts: i really just use it as an editor, i don't do anything fancy.
2016-10-16T17:08:28Z zacts: yeah
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2016-10-17T13:43:05Z BW^-: here comes a funny question:  do you see any code transformation that could be applied to Scheme code, such that it would detect RAM corruptions e.g. bit flips?
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2016-10-17T14:20:41Z Riastradh: Not without a model of how the Scheme code interacts with RAM.
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2016-10-17T14:52:11Z qu1j0t3: what if the bit flips are in your instruction stream
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2016-10-17T14:57:39Z wasamasa: then we're doomed
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2016-10-17T15:38:15Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan
2016-10-17T15:39:48Z jcowan: hey ho
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2016-10-17T15:47:39Z ecraven: :)
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2016-10-17T16:45:18Z gnomon: wingo, dammit, I'm looking up horse height calculation charts now.  This is all your fault.
2016-10-17T16:45:25Z gnomon: J'ACCUSE
2016-10-17T16:45:28Z wingo: :)
2016-10-17T16:45:40Z wingo: and what happens when it's 14 hands and 2.5 inches?
2016-10-17T16:45:44Z wingo: that's my question
2016-10-17T16:46:00Z gnomon: If this turns into a calc-mode pull request I'm'a point the finger straight at you.
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2016-10-17T16:46:33Z gnomon: Presumably there's an accuracy bound when calculating horse heights?
2016-10-17T16:46:51Z gnomon: Equestrian-interval arithmetic?
2016-10-17T16:53:29Z gnomon: I'm looking at the source code of http://www.onlineconversion.com/horse_height.htm (specifically curl -s -H 'Range: bytes=481-2315' 'http://www.onlineconversion.com/horse_height.htm' ) and I feel like I don't want to adapt this specific codebase.
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2016-10-17T16:57:33Z jcowan_: AAAAAAAA
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2016-10-17T16:58:20Z jcowan_: It's not so much that the code is awful, it's that the idea of entering 10 hands 2 inches as 10.2 is detestable.
2016-10-17T16:58:49Z gnomon: Isn't it just, though?
2016-10-17T16:58:55Z ecraven: jcowan_: what could be wrong with 14.11?
2016-10-17T16:58:58Z gnomon: Too detestable to let it languish in obscurity!
2016-10-17T16:59:07Z ecraven: and isn't it obvious that 14.11 is *larger* than 14.9?
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2016-10-17T17:02:44Z gwatt: to be fair, neither 14.9 nor 14.11 are valid hand.inches
2016-10-17T17:02:49Z gwatt: since a hand is 4 inches
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2016-10-17T17:04:27Z ecraven: gwatt: ah, very good point indeed...
2016-10-17T17:04:34Z ecraven: metric sometimes is simpler :)
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2016-10-17T17:18:46Z jcowan: But why not?  14 hands 9 inches, what's wrong with that?  No worse than 10 feet 32 inches.
2016-10-17T17:19:09Z jcowan: Not something you'd say, but something you'd expect to be understood.
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2016-10-17T17:30:09Z qu1j0t3 isn't sure overloading the decimal point here is helping
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2016-10-17T17:36:05Z pierpa: what's the customary way to write measures in feet and inches?
2016-10-17T17:36:15Z qu1j0t3: 6' 10"
2016-10-17T17:36:17Z pierpa: 3'23" ?
2016-10-17T17:36:20Z pierpa: ah, ok
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2016-10-17T17:38:42Z qu1j0t3: some people would use the proper typography 6′ 10″
2016-10-17T17:38:50Z qu1j0t3: (like minutes-seconds)
2016-10-17T17:39:24Z jcowan: yeah, context has to tell you whether it's length or time
2016-10-17T17:39:58Z qu1j0t3: 4' 33"
2016-10-17T17:40:04Z qu1j0t3 runz
2016-10-17T17:40:15Z pierpa: we need a piano...
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2016-10-17T22:10:43Z DeeEff[m]: ft. and in. are also acceptable
2016-10-17T22:10:50Z DeeEff[m]: 3ft. 10in.
2016-10-17T22:10:51Z DeeEff[m]: etcf
2016-10-17T22:10:59Z DeeEff[m]: although it is pretty verbose
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2016-10-17T22:34:37Z rain1: [repeating my question from #racket] is there a repo with some nice test programs, ones that stress all sorts of different aspects of the scheme language - closures, etc..
2016-10-17T22:43:40Z asumu: Repeating answer from #racket in case it helps others: R6RS came with an executable formal semantics + lots of tests. http://www.r6rs.org/refimpl/
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2016-10-18T15:41:58Z DeeEff[m]: rain1: IIRC ecraven has put together some benchmarks at https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-benchmarks
2016-10-18T15:42:17Z DeeEff[m]: granted these are specifically r7rs benchmarks, and don't test specific Scheme implementations in full.
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2016-10-18T17:39:03Z 
2016-10-18T17:39:03Z names: ccl-logbot davorb cemerick grettke zwwwdr cantstanya DerGuteMoritz CustosL1men defanor rotty balkamos cky rsully owickstrom kori LeoNerd aap Blkt NNaNDude CORDIC stamourv ski_ jackdaniel em clog_ ovenpasta jlongster jmd AlexDenisov sethalves rgrinberg stevenspasbo excelsior justinethier khisanth__ joneshf-laptop JoshS momofarm pierpa annodomini nckx freedom01 karswell` groscoe blackwolf ezekielnoob webshinra hive-mind lritter rx80 xoui fiddlerwoaroof jim
2016-10-18T17:39:03Z names: _sjs Menche Ravana ArneBab cibs Kkiro dsp yoosi ozzloy juhovh abbe M-krsiehl DeeEff[m] mkmgcom[m] leppie jcowan zacts rmrfchik niklasl arbv mlaine snow_bckspc zaquest ym groovy2shoes mach joast ddp shymega jyc aking qu1j0t3 sake kwmiebach__ weinholt m1dnight1 _antoszka_ klutometis SirDayBat snits spauldo-afk tessier carc cojy pchrist micmus stasku_ ecraven eska gnomon vifino- brendyn fadein z0d DGASAU` Neet dmiles jcloud neuri8 wasamasa des_consolado drot
2016-10-18T17:39:03Z names: \k tristero averell stux|work mario-goulart NhanH JackMc npr evhan tm512 MorTal1ty jrslepak ohama fgudin micro`_ foof lalex davexunit stephe sbauman f32ff mbrock fizzie kbtr C-Keen bars0_ eMBee sosho woona Kryo Tenhi dpk samth XTL 7YUAAFB4P akkad GGMethos gko m1dnight_ cmatei na_th_an eli M_D_K bairyn juanfra gabot jrd0 lloda yrdz Wojciech_K gf3 metaf5_ ineiros ijp dan64 zbigniew ft ec\ yosafbridge r0kc4t _0x5eb_ wingo Nycatelos jefrite asumu cjh`
2016-10-18T17:39:03Z names: vikraman cameronfr taij33n askatasuna Hijiri gwatt elflng chazu leo_song aeth tokik mikeyhc DeeEff profan rudybot cross retroj copec benaiah finnrobi_ choas amoe_ mrowe eagleflo
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2016-10-18T17:58:15Z paroneayea: hello!
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2016-10-18T17:58:40Z paroneayea: http://community.schemewiki.org/kali-scheme/ whoa
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2016-10-18T23:05:54Z YottaByte: hi guys I want to get mit scheme for sicp on emacs but I'm having trouble getting geiser to install... on windows
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2016-10-19T13:10:08Z yottabyte: ok since I can't seem to get geiser on windows, screw it, how can I use mit-scheme on emacs and just run mit scheme and maybe have a repl like drracket? I have mit scheme installed. for working through sicp
2016-10-19T13:11:07Z ecraven: yottabyte: use emacs with SLIME, or use edwin (mit-scheme --edit, I think)
2016-10-19T13:11:18Z ecraven: edwin is like emacs (a bit) :)
2016-10-19T13:13:21Z yottabyte: no edwin is too hard
2016-10-19T13:13:31Z yottabyte: do you use emacs?
2016-10-19T13:13:32Z jackdaniel: when I have to use Windows, first application is firefox, which is used to find cygwin
2016-10-19T13:13:36Z jackdaniel: and cygwin is your solution :-)
2016-10-19T13:14:42Z ecraven: yottabyte: yes, I use emacs with SLIME
2016-10-19T13:15:02Z ecraven: https://github.com/ecraven/mit-scheme-swank
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2016-10-19T13:23:26Z yottabyte: what is swank?
2016-10-19T13:23:36Z ecraven: the server that slime connects to
2016-10-19T13:23:38Z yottabyte: jackdaniel: yeah I wanted to avoid cygwin. but bash for windows 10 is out. I might try that
2016-10-19T13:23:49Z ecraven: the thing that needs to run in your scheme so that emacs/SLIME can connect to it
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2016-10-19T13:35:21Z jackdaniel: does scheme work with swank? didn't know about that
2016-10-19T13:35:26Z jackdaniel: s/swank/slime/
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2016-10-19T13:49:24Z ecraven: jackdaniel: some schemes have swanks
2016-10-19T13:49:31Z ecraven: guile I think? mit-scheme does
2016-10-19T13:50:13Z davexunit: you would use Geiser with Guile
2016-10-19T13:50:39Z ecraven: davexunit: last I checked SLIME supported quite a few useful things that geiser didn't... but of course it depends on your swank as well
2016-10-19T13:50:55Z ecraven: I'm still using SLIME with mit-scheme, because it can do much more than geiser
2016-10-19T13:51:12Z davexunit: I've never used SLIME so I don't know, but Geisier is *the* official way to interact with Guile in Emacs.
2016-10-19T13:52:03Z davexunit: so I wouldn't recommend any other tool.  every guile dev uses it.
2016-10-19T13:55:08Z ecraven: davexunit: ok. I didn't want to disparage it, I just seem to remember there was something like slime for guile.. though I'm not sure any more, it might have been chicken that has a swank?
2016-10-19T13:55:27Z davexunit: not sure, never used chicken.  never used any scheme besides guile, actually.
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2016-10-19T14:50:58Z DeeEff[m]: CHICKEN has the SLIME egg, which provides a swank server
2016-10-19T14:52:01Z DeeEff[m]: Geiser supports more than the SLIME egg at present. As far as I know Dan Leslie, who wrote the SLIME egg and does support for CHICKEN on Geiser decided to put more work into Geiser than to push the SLIME egg much further
2016-10-19T14:52:25Z DeeEff[m]: IIRC it's because SLIME models Common Lisp well, but doesn't work quite the same with Scheme.
2016-10-19T14:52:33Z DeeEff[m]: So some things are missing because we lack for e.g. restarts
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2016-10-19T16:24:41Z ecraven: DeeEff[m]: mit has many of these things, thus SLIME is a good fit in some ways
2016-10-19T16:25:22Z DeeEff[m]: well, to be honest, Gesier does have some really nice integration in Emacs.
2016-10-19T16:25:31Z DeeEff[m]: IMO the nicest thing about SLIME is that I can use it from vim as well
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2016-10-19T16:26:03Z DeeEff[m]: granted depending on the dialect of Scheme sometimes just using vim+tmux+repl is better
2016-10-19T16:26:41Z DeeEff[m]: (this doesn't work well on windows, given that tmux and a nice console emulator can be a hassle to use and install)
2016-10-19T16:26:52Z ecraven: DeeEff[m]: slime has actual debugging support, decent tracing support, and more keybindings I'm used to, to name a few.. but geiser is clearly the way to go in the future
2016-10-19T16:27:02Z ecraven: I should pimp the mit backend some more :)
2016-10-19T16:27:19Z DeeEff[m]: You should try to make a generic r7rs backend, IMO
2016-10-19T16:27:28Z DeeEff[m]: that way any Scheme can try to take advantage of SLIME
2016-10-19T16:27:35Z DeeEff[m]: :)
2016-10-19T16:28:47Z ecraven: that is impossible. the wire protocol for slime includes stuff like #.(
2016-10-19T16:28:55Z ecraven: nil, t, and so on
2016-10-19T16:29:03Z ecraven: it is hard enough to get this right in *one* scheme :)
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2016-10-19T19:47:24Z ecraven: hm.. why does assq-ref have reversed arguments compared to assq?
2016-10-19T19:53:20Z ijp: presumably by analogy with list-ref and vector-ref
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2016-10-19T20:14:40Z jcowan: ecraven: Where is assq-ref from?
2016-10-19T20:15:16Z ecraven: jcowan: guile has it https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/docs/docs-1.6/guile-ref/Retrieving-Alist-Entries.html
2016-10-19T20:15:17Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/hI2vWkQstD
2016-10-19T20:15:19Z ecraven: it seems useful :)
2016-10-19T20:15:33Z ecraven: but the parameter order is definitely a problem :-/
2016-10-19T20:15:50Z ecraven: that's the kind of thing I wish r7rs could fix :-/
2016-10-19T20:15:57Z ijp: guile 1.6 is over a decade old now
2016-10-19T20:16:15Z jcowan: I think ijp is right: it is meant to look like other *-ref functions with "collection key" order
2016-10-19T20:16:17Z ecraven: well, new guile still has it
2016-10-19T20:16:39Z pierpa: r7rs should fix the argument order of functions in guile?
2016-10-19T20:17:09Z ecraven: pierpa: no, it should make the order of function arguments the same for all "similar" functios
2016-10-19T20:17:13Z ecraven: r7rs-large that is
2016-10-19T20:17:20Z ecraven: in r7rs-small, it is probably already fine
2016-10-19T20:17:31Z ijp: just one more thing for schemes to ignore
2016-10-19T20:17:37Z pierpa: I understand assq-ref is not a r7rs function?
2016-10-19T20:18:04Z jcowan: It is not
2016-10-19T20:18:27Z pierpa: so... :)
2016-10-19T20:18:27Z jcowan: atm there is no alist library proposal, but someone could write one
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2016-10-19T20:21:26Z jcowan: perhaps based on guile
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2016-10-19T20:45:15Z ecraven: is there anything like "string-null-or" which takes the first non-empty string?
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2016-10-19T20:58:31Z DeeEff[m]: ecraven: `(find (compose not string-null?) list-of-strings)`
2016-10-19T20:58:36Z DeeEff[m]: or is that not what you want?
2016-10-19T20:58:39Z DeeEff[m]: find is in SRFI-1
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2016-10-19T21:09:45Z ecraven: DeeEff[m]: it is, but it seems verbose :-/
2016-10-19T21:10:02Z ecraven: is it just because I'm not a native speaker of english that `unless' seems hard to grok?
2016-10-19T21:10:13Z ecraven: I keep resolving it to (if (not ..) in my head
2016-10-19T21:10:28Z DeeEff[m]: ecraven: `unless` and `if-not` aren't quite the same
2016-10-19T21:10:37Z ecraven: implicit body?
2016-10-19T21:10:39Z DeeEff[m]: I mean, unless doesn't have an `else` branch
2016-10-19T21:10:53Z DeeEff[m]: and returns an unspecified result
2016-10-19T21:10:58Z ecraven: yes, but you know what I mean? (when (not  would be more exact :)
2016-10-19T21:11:05Z DeeEff[m]: whereas `if` always returns the last evaluated expression
2016-10-19T21:11:43Z DeeEff[m]: I suppose I sort of get it. You could always just define your own name for the procedure though
2016-10-19T21:12:20Z DeeEff[m]: like `(define (string-or list-of-strings) (find (compose not string-null?) list-of-strings))`
2016-10-19T21:13:15Z ecraven: yea, I've started a personal util.scm for things like that
2016-10-19T21:13:25Z DeeEff[m]: I suppose if you're gonna do that you may want a macro though
2016-10-19T21:13:36Z DeeEff[m]: something like "or" usually has delayed evaluation for a reason
2016-10-19T21:14:01Z ecraven: I know how to write it, I'm just not sure whether it's a good idea
2016-10-19T21:14:25Z DeeEff[m]: also you may want to write it as `(string-or "" "" "" "a" (really-expensive-string-op ...))`
2016-10-19T21:14:46Z DeeEff[m]: well, I don't know what you're trying to do, so I can't vouch for whether writing the procedure is a good idea.
2016-10-19T21:15:07Z DeeEff[m]: but since it only relies on SRFI-1 which is included in just about everything, I doubt you're adding much overhead with the procedure alone
2016-10-19T21:15:17Z DeeEff[m]: depends how often you use it I guess.
2016-10-19T21:15:25Z ecraven: well, down that path lies string-or, number-or, ... :-/
2016-10-19T21:15:36Z ecraven: sometimes, a polymorphic Scheme doesn't seem so bad :)
2016-10-19T21:16:12Z DeeEff[m]: maybe, but if you find yourself writing a set of utilities for each type, maybe you're writing something that's too specific from the get-go
2016-10-19T21:16:29Z DeeEff[m]: hence why instead of Scheme providing a string-or, it provides find instead
2016-10-19T21:26:07Z ecraven: DeeEff[m]: I know, but string-or (if you know what it does) is much clearer than find (lambda ....)
2016-10-19T21:26:19Z ecraven: to me at least, I think
2016-10-19T21:27:04Z DeeEff[m]: sure, but if you use string-or in one or two places in your code, you're paying the cost of naming and maintaining the API for it, whereas you can avoid that cost if you use a lambda
2016-10-19T21:27:13Z DeeEff[m]: again, depends on how prevalent it is in your code
2016-10-19T21:27:30Z ecraven: I've probably read too many forth books on refactoring :-/
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2016-10-21T09:03:34Z BW^-: emm, do you see any scheme code transformation that could be applied to guarantee that the code was correctly executed?
2016-10-21T09:04:04Z BW^-: just doing such a simple thing as running operations doubly, should be fine
2016-10-21T09:04:15Z BW^-: hmm. code pointers could jump and mess up though.
2016-10-21T09:04:42Z BW^-: maybe the outermost results of a computation need to be checked in altogether independent environments and then compared, to know that it worked
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2016-10-21T09:16:10Z BW^-: ah, realization: ultimately the scheme can't do foolproofness checks, because, the scheme can't know what the result endpoint will be or how it works, so that correctness would be automatically achieved
2016-10-21T09:16:36Z BW^-: so correctness is an application-specific concern.
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2016-10-21T09:19:45Z jim: you would have to define to it what correctness is
2016-10-21T09:20:19Z jim: not necessarily in general, but just for the case you're thinking about
2016-10-21T09:20:38Z BW^-: exactly.
2016-10-21T09:21:01Z BW^-: jim: and then I need to run *two* evaluations, preferably on separate systems, and check that they got the same result.
2016-10-21T09:21:48Z BW^-: and if they did not, then, reevaluate.
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2016-10-22T13:17:12Z jiada`: (define (linear-combination a b x y)
2016-10-22T13:17:12Z jiada`:     (add (mul a x) ( mul b y)))
2016-10-22T13:17:13Z jiada`: I know that the value of abxy is determined by  environment . How about the value of add  and mul?Does those go with abxy? What's the difference with Java 's interface ?
2016-10-22T13:17:13Z jiada`:     
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2016-10-22T20:28:40Z Danieru: yo yo.. so i'm using edwin in linux and i'm unable to get my vars to return values.. i am guess it is because of a setting but i'm not exactly sure how to get it running properly.. any ideas?
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2016-10-22T21:26:56Z Danieru:  hey.. so anyone know how to get mit-scheme edwin working properly?
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2016-10-24T14:41:48Z jcowan: hey ho
2016-10-24T14:42:02Z ecraven: hey :)
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2016-10-24T14:45:01Z justinethier: hey
2016-10-24T14:46:04Z justinethier: ecraven: would it be possible for you to re-run your r7rs benchmarks for cyclone?
2016-10-24T14:46:14Z justinethier: just released version 0.3 :)
2016-10-24T14:47:32Z ecraven: justinethier: yes, but last I tried the arch linux pkgbuild was broken
2016-10-24T14:47:36Z ecraven: give me a minute :)
2016-10-24T14:47:42Z ecraven: I think I tried to reach you on IRC, but didn't succeed
2016-10-24T14:47:57Z ecraven: compiling now
2016-10-24T14:48:06Z ecraven: gc.c:428:9: error: ‘port_type {aka struct <anonymous>}’ has no member named ‘mem_buf’
2016-10-24T14:48:07Z justinethier: ah, sorry about that
2016-10-24T14:48:15Z justinethier: hmmm
2016-10-24T14:48:22Z ecraven: gc.c:429:9: error: ‘port_type {aka struct <anonymous>}’ has no member named ‘mem_buf_len’
2016-10-24T14:48:32Z ecraven: those two errors prevent compilation :-/
2016-10-24T14:48:54Z justinethier: is that with the latest 0.3?
2016-10-24T14:49:01Z ecraven: whatever the arch linux pkgbuild uses
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2016-10-24T14:49:16Z justinethier: OK, let me look into it
2016-10-24T14:49:42Z ecraven: seems to link to https://github.com/justinethier/cyclone-bootstrap/archive/v0.3.tar.gz
2016-10-24T14:49:54Z ecraven: is there a newer version?
2016-10-24T14:50:04Z justinethier: that's the latest
2016-10-24T14:50:10Z justinethier: just updated it last Friday
2016-10-24T14:50:21Z ecraven: which gcc do you use?
2016-10-24T14:50:29Z ecraven: 6.2.1 on arch
2016-10-24T14:50:58Z justinethier: Yes, I've had it build with that version
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2016-10-24T14:52:02Z ecraven: hm.. seems to build fine if *not* run under makepkg
2016-10-24T14:53:30Z justinethier: hmm
2016-10-24T14:55:28Z ecraven: not quite sure what the error actually is, it looks as if for some reason it doesn't quite know what struct port_type is
2016-10-24T15:00:25Z ecraven: if I run make CC=clang, I get the same error under makepkg
2016-10-24T15:01:05Z justinethier: OK, I think the problem is that it has the wrong path to the header files
2016-10-24T15:01:27Z ecraven: did you look at the PKGBUILD? it does set CFLAGS explicitly, maybe that is wrong
2016-10-24T15:01:36Z justinethier: it should be using the ones for the version it is building. on your machine it is finding an older version. on my machine here, it doesn't find anything because I uninstalled cyclone
2016-10-24T15:02:12Z ecraven: hm.. I added -Iinclude to make libcyclone.a, seems to help.. but linking also fails
2016-10-24T15:02:57Z ecraven: icyc.c:(.text+0x84): undefined reference to `set_env_variables'
2016-10-24T15:06:40Z justinethier: it looks like it is using its own build options instead of the ones in Makefile.config
2016-10-24T15:06:50Z justinethier: I wonder if that is the problem
2016-10-24T15:06:57Z ecraven: justinethier: how do you normally build it?
2016-10-24T15:07:00Z justinethier: sorry about all this
2016-10-24T15:07:17Z ecraven: justinethier: not your fault, maybe the person who wrote the PKGBUILD didn't do things right
2016-10-24T15:07:31Z justinethier: unfortunately, that was me :)
2016-10-24T15:07:31Z ecraven: wait, it says that's you :D you should know!
2016-10-24T15:07:33Z justinethier: hah
2016-10-24T15:09:02Z ecraven: can you reproduce the build problems locally?
2016-10-24T15:10:10Z ecraven: if I can do anything to help, just ask me :)
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2016-10-24T15:15:11Z justinethier: Thanks, I appreciate it
2016-10-24T15:15:31Z ecraven: justinethier: I'll try to also add cyclone to my r7rs-coverage (very much a WIP)
2016-10-24T15:15:37Z justinethier: I can repro here so let me look into the build... I'll let you know when its in a better place
2016-10-24T15:15:42Z justinethier: ok
2016-10-24T15:15:50Z ecraven: great, thanks!
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2016-10-24T15:24:13Z Menche: issues building cyclone on OpenBSD http://lpaste.net/298302
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2016-10-24T15:36:55Z justinethier: Menche: thanks, looks like AI_V4MAPPED and AI_ALL are not defined on BSD?
2016-10-24T15:37:04Z LeoNerd: Doesn't surprise me
2016-10-24T15:39:12Z Menche: I have built it successfully on FreeBSD
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2016-10-24T16:12:10Z justinethier: ecraven: when you have a moment, can you try building cyclone again from the AUR using cyclone-scheme 0.3-2?
2016-10-24T16:12:32Z justinethier: Menche: good to know about FreeBSD, thanks :)
2016-10-24T16:12:38Z ecraven: building now
2016-10-24T16:12:43Z justinethier: awesome
2016-10-24T16:12:46Z justinethier: sorry about thta
2016-10-24T16:12:51Z justinethier: that
2016-10-24T16:13:34Z ecraven: no problem at all, thanks for fixing it
2016-10-24T16:13:40Z ecraven: compiling fine so far :)
2016-10-24T16:13:56Z ecraven: justinethier: also, cyclone looks really nice! thanks for making it!
2016-10-24T16:14:10Z justinethier: ecraven: no problem :)
2016-10-24T16:14:40Z justinethier: I am trying to speed it up to make it competitive with some of the other schemes out there
2016-10-24T16:14:48Z ecraven: running the benchmark now
2016-10-24T16:14:53Z justinethier: thanks
2016-10-24T16:15:31Z ecraven: browse 22.37s
2016-10-24T16:15:55Z ecraven: I'll ping you when I've updated the benchmarks page, probably late tonight or tomorrow morning (CEST)
2016-10-24T16:17:14Z justinethier: sounds great, thanks
2016-10-24T16:18:11Z ecraven: great to see more r7rs schemes!
2016-10-24T16:18:22Z ecraven: justinethier: do you plan to follow r7rs-large too?
2016-10-24T16:19:05Z justinethier: cyclone is written in r7rs, too :)
2016-10-24T16:19:13Z ecraven: nice!
2016-10-24T16:19:23Z ecraven: I'll need to look at the source soon, so far I haven't investigated :-/
2016-10-24T16:19:36Z justinethier: That's the tentative plan, I have already added some of the data structures
2016-10-24T16:19:40Z ecraven: cool
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2016-10-24T16:20:37Z justinethier: so we'll see where the r7rs-large goes and what speed bumps we run into, but that's the plan
2016-10-24T16:21:08Z justinethier: no worries, but feel free to browse the source if you are interested
2016-10-24T16:21:43Z justinethier: I tried to keep things simple because it had to bootstrap itself, so initially the code avoided advanced features
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2016-10-24T17:12:32Z ecraven: ah, who doesn't love makefiles that do not have proper prerequisites and break when run with -j8 :-/
2016-10-24T17:12:46Z qu1j0t3: :-)
2016-10-24T17:13:07Z ecraven: argon2, in this case
2016-10-24T17:14:13Z justinethier: uh oh :)
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2016-10-24T17:39:19Z ecraven: justinethier: http://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html
2016-10-24T17:39:45Z ecraven: justinethier: there, cyclone is fastest on one benchmark
2016-10-24T17:40:05Z ecraven: benchmark equal
2016-10-24T17:42:54Z justinethier: ecraven: thank you!
2016-10-24T17:45:33Z ecraven: justinethier: very welcome!
2016-10-24T17:45:39Z ecraven: thanks for fixing the pkgbuild
2016-10-24T17:46:09Z justinethier: no problem, I need to do a better job of keeping track of that
2016-10-24T17:47:26Z justinethier: I actually switched over to developing on arch linux instead of ubuntu (it is so much faster when you only run what you absolutely need), so I don't have any excuses :)
2016-10-24T17:47:47Z justinethier: by the way, thanks for putting the list of benchmarks together
2016-10-24T17:48:07Z justinethier: its really useful to be able to compare all these different implementations
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2016-10-24T17:50:31Z ecraven: oh, they aren't really mine, I just kind of updated the script and did a bit of (still crappy) visualization
2016-10-24T17:50:58Z ecraven: I still hope I'm not doing something *really* wrong in running the benchmarks, but they do seem to kind of match expectations
2016-10-24T17:51:13Z justinethier: I know where they come from, but it still seems like you did a lot of work to put everything together and get r6rs schemes to work
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2016-10-24T17:52:18Z justinethier: I have been running them on a slower machine and the numbers seem to more or less add up.
2016-10-24T17:52:38Z justinethier: but I only have cyclone installed, not all of the other schemes
2016-10-24T17:52:50Z ecraven: there should be arch linux packages for all of them :)
2016-10-24T17:53:02Z justinethier: maybe I'll pull a few more down
2016-10-24T17:53:37Z gwatt: ecraven: at least in the equal test, it looks like building the data structures is included in the benchmark
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2016-10-24T17:53:48Z justinethier: have you talked to Will Clinger much about this? I wonder if he is planning to keep track of r7rs benchmarks on a regular basis?
2016-10-24T17:54:11Z ecraven: gwatt: hm.. I'll have to look at this. I didn't touch the actual benchmark code if I could avoid it
2016-10-24T17:54:26Z ecraven: justinethier: no, never talked to him yet :-/
2016-10-24T17:54:34Z justinethier: no worries
2016-10-24T17:54:39Z ecraven: wait, maybe I did send an e-mail, whether it was ok to use the benchmarks
2016-10-24T17:54:55Z justinethier: I think your page says something about that
2016-10-24T17:55:02Z justinethier: used with permission or such?
2016-10-24T17:55:22Z ecraven: yea, the benchmarks are the larceny benchmarks in essence
2016-10-24T17:55:28Z justinethier: yup
2016-10-24T17:55:54Z justinethier: his benchmark page is a bit misleading though, because larceny is (apparently) so much faster than the other r7rs schemes
2016-10-24T17:59:58Z justinethier: by the way, what is r7rs-coverage?
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2016-10-24T18:05:51Z ecraven: https://ecraven.github.com/r7rs-coverage/stats.html
2016-10-24T18:06:10Z ecraven: a first crude attempt to find out which parts of r7rs the different implementations support
2016-10-24T18:06:25Z ecraven: including faking (import ) support (which most are still missing)
2016-10-24T18:08:46Z gwatt: Is there something wrong with the mosh column? every single criteria is a red x
2016-10-24T18:09:50Z ecraven: gwatt: ah, I had a non-working implementation of mosh on my system at some point, maybe that's why they all failed
2016-10-24T18:09:51Z ecraven: I'll check later
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2016-10-24T18:14:59Z justinethier: cool. I tried adding cyclone to see what would happen but am getting "line 151: [: ==: unary operator expected" errors. no worries though, probably just missed some other necessary modifications to your scripts
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2016-10-24T18:17:08Z ecraven: justinethier: I'll add it in a few minutes :)
2016-10-24T18:17:27Z ecraven: the coverage script is very unstable... I've thought about actually writing those scripts in Scheme, instead of bash
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2016-10-24T18:34:25Z justinethier: ecraven: thanks :)
2016-10-24T18:37:01Z justinethier: the scripts might be more robust if they used r7rs exception handling to handle assertions
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2016-10-24T18:37:38Z justinethier: otherwise how do you know the status of subsequent asserts
2016-10-24T18:38:13Z justinethier: but the scheme would need to support exception handling...
2016-10-24T18:39:59Z justinethier: I guess it just depends how much granularity is needed
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2016-10-24T18:40:57Z ecraven: justinethier: what do I need to import to get all of r7rs-small?
2016-10-24T18:41:13Z ecraven: justinethier: for most tests, there should be only a single assert
2016-10-24T18:41:24Z ecraven: when more schemes support r7rs exception handling, that might be an option :-/
2016-10-24T18:41:57Z justinethier: fair enough
2016-10-24T18:42:31Z justinethier: most things are in (scheme base) but not everything
2016-10-24T18:44:47Z justinethier: technically you would need to import all of the libraries mentioned in Appendix A: http://justinethier.github.io/cyclone/docs/r7rs.pdf
2016-10-24T18:47:57Z justinethier: this is a good case for having separate files for everything (like you do now) because if a library is not supported there is not a portable way of testing for that
2016-10-24T18:50:02Z ecraven: justinethier: seems most things work, except for +nan.0, +inf.0, something about rationalize, exact-integer-sqrt
2016-10-24T18:50:08Z ecraven: I'll upload a new page soon :)
2016-10-24T18:51:02Z justinethier: ecraven: cool, thanks
2016-10-24T18:51:14Z ecraven: exact-integer-sqrt seems to be missing entirely
2016-10-24T18:51:20Z ecraven: same for +nan.0 and +inf.0
2016-10-24T18:51:36Z justinethier: the reader needs to be enhanced for nan and inf
2016-10-24T18:52:11Z justinethier: hmm, exact-integer-sqrt seems like it would be simple to add though
2016-10-24T18:52:29Z ecraven: just use sqrt and exact :p
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2016-10-24T18:53:43Z ecraven: mosh has this, I think: http://paste.lisp.org/display/329456
2016-10-24T18:54:14Z ecraven: probably doesn't work with sufficiently large bignums
2016-10-24T18:55:21Z jcowan_: justinethier: Across R7RS implementations, cond-expand can tell if a library is present
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2016-10-24T18:56:35Z justinethier: ecraven: cool, thanks. should work fine for "normal" integers though
2016-10-24T18:57:12Z justinethier: jcowan: ah, using the library form?
2016-10-24T18:57:39Z jcowan: Yes
2016-10-24T18:58:53Z jcowan: Thus a cond-expand term of (library (scheme complex)) tells you if complex numbers are supported (assuming nobody will implement complex numbers without complex functions, though it's possible in principle to do so)
2016-10-24T19:04:03Z justinethier: good to know - looks like there is another feature to add to cyclone
2016-10-24T19:04:08Z justinethier: works great in chibi :)
2016-10-24T19:05:05Z jcowan: justinethier: Is Cyclone r7rs from scratch, or are you enhancing an r5rs system?
2016-10-24T19:05:43Z justinethier: from scratch, but bits and pieces are borrowed from other schemes
2016-10-24T19:06:13Z justinethier: for example, the macro system is based on ER macros so a lot of macros are based on ones from Chibi
2016-10-24T19:06:30Z ecraven: now with cyclone :) https://ecraven.github.com/r7rs-coverage/stats.html
2016-10-24T19:07:33Z justinethier: ecraven: cool, thanks
2016-10-24T19:08:38Z ecraven: I really need to update this to show the actual error message, so people can investigate what the exact problem is and how to fix it :-/
2016-10-24T19:11:05Z justinethier: that would be good
2016-10-24T19:11:15Z justinethier: you might need to label the asserts in order to make that happen though
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2016-10-24T19:13:19Z justinethier: I mean, you don't have to, but it could let you report more information for a failure
2016-10-24T19:13:56Z justinethier: ecraven: Hey, cyclone supports SRFI 1 if you add the import (srfi 1)
2016-10-24T19:16:27Z ecraven: justinethier: yea, I just need to figure out a good way to do this.. I can't have two import lines, right? I need to import everything at once
2016-10-24T19:17:36Z ecraven: justinethier: they are labelled by the comments
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2016-10-24T19:17:52Z ecraven: but all of this was a quick afternoon hack, so many things need to be fixed
2016-10-24T19:21:33Z justinethier: technically 2 import declarations are probably allowed, but cyclone only supports one
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2016-10-24T19:21:55Z ecraven: right now, I load the "global" prelude, then the srfi-specific one. so I'd need to coalesce those into one
2016-10-24T19:27:30Z justinethier: OK
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2016-10-24T20:18:39Z ecraven: will r7rs-large talk about keywords? as in keyword parameters?
2016-10-24T20:22:21Z jcowan: Possibly.  I have a proposal that portably implements them, but they are identifiers so they have to be exported with care.
2016-10-24T20:30:20Z Riastradh: I hope they work like this: http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/mit-keyword.scm
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2016-10-24T20:34:44Z jcowan: Well, of course you can do that too.  No, keywords in this proposal are runtime objects such that keywords are equal if their names are equal.
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2016-10-24T21:35:55Z pflanze: Hello. In macros that generate macros, how is scoping?
2016-10-24T21:36:23Z pflanze: Say, I've got a macro FOO, that generates a macro BAR which should be only visible in the scope of the FOO form.
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2016-10-24T21:39:16Z pflanze: Using CL style macros here just for the sake of demonstration: (defmacro (BAR) `(void))  (defmacro (FOO e) `(begin (defmacro (BAR) `(display 42)) ,e))   (FOO (BAR)) (BAR)
2016-10-24T21:39:26Z pflanze: This should output 42 once, not twice.
2016-10-24T21:39:35Z pflanze: How would I do it?
2016-10-24T21:42:06Z pflanze: I guess that's what let-syntax is for when using syntax-rules.
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2016-10-25T00:41:01Z n_blownapart: well I'm stumped by the towers of hanoi sicp problem. I can complete the physical puzzle itself with little elegance (8 disks), but do not get the algorithm.. looking at a solution here: https://www.refheap.com/123508
2016-10-25T00:41:02Z n_blownapart: I believe the problem is not even included in the book. its on the lecture video #2  ^
2016-10-25T00:47:10Z pierpa: what's the problem?
2016-10-25T00:53:36Z qu1j0t3: Hanoi can be tricky to figure out from zero. I always forget how it's done, too. :)
2016-10-25T00:54:14Z qu1j0t3: but i think for this reason it remains a good recursive modelling drill
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2016-10-25T01:08:58Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: sorry I had to leave my desk. yeah its the toughest exercise so far. I can barely conceptualize the puzzle itself even though I can complete the 8 high disks physically.
2016-10-25T01:09:31Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: You have to use the normal ways of attacking a recursive problem
2016-10-25T01:09:47Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: "How can i solve this in terms of a smaller problem?"
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2016-10-25T01:10:15Z n_blownapart: in the video, they don't complete it, and strangely it is not (so far) required in the book.
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2016-10-25T01:12:53Z qu1j0t3: well, it's up to you. you can skip it, or use it as an opportunity to practice recursive design
2016-10-25T01:16:35Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: I'd like to know it. at this stage I cannot wrap my mind around it.
2016-10-25T01:17:57Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: I want to know all of it especially higher math. the 1.19 exercise covers a lot and I understand it except for some nuances.
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2016-10-25T01:19:12Z n_blownapart: all of it meaning the whole turing machine thing, the metacircular idea, y-combinator, the whole bit.
2016-10-25T01:21:01Z n_blownapart: thanks for responding qu1j0t3 I am slightly ill. going home...
2016-10-25T01:21:41Z qu1j0t3: np
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2016-10-25T01:24:06Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: are you typically on the channel at this hour?
2016-10-25T01:24:39Z n_blownapart: with the hope of going over the problem soon...
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2016-10-25T02:51:21Z crucify_me: hi anyone walk me through how the hanoi tower algorithm works? can't get my head around it at all. thanks https://www.refheap.com/123510
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2016-10-25T02:53:45Z kori: what are the bigger scheme communities?
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2016-10-25T03:10:23Z qu1j0t3: crucify_me: what's the context? where did this code come from?
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2016-10-25T03:12:33Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3, hi ... aka crucify_me here ... context? it's a solution I got in someone's git repo. I don't get it. "move top disk" means what?
2016-10-25T03:13:26Z n_blownapart: each disk should be numbered say 1-8 so I don't know why they chose that
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2016-10-25T03:17:50Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: my advice would be to go back to pencil and paper
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2016-10-25T03:18:07Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: try and work out a way to do it by hand
2016-10-25T03:20:59Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3, yeah I would except I am still trying to understand the puzzle in physical form . I went through it with 8 disks on an online puzzle app. I can do it but in a way far from the most efficient.
2016-10-25T03:22:04Z n_blownapart: I don't think I could do it numerically. apparently the mathematics of it is well-understood.
2016-10-25T03:25:43Z qu1j0t3: well, it's a physical puzzle.
2016-10-25T03:26:46Z n_blownapart: http://vornlocher.de/tower.html     this is a cool app .. 8 disks took me a long while
2016-10-25T03:26:51Z qu1j0t3: just draw 3 towers, put N disks (say a small number to start) on tower 1, work out the steps on paper to move all pieces from tower 1 to empty tower 2.
2016-10-25T03:27:14Z qu1j0t3: i assume you know the rest of the rules.
2016-10-25T03:28:02Z qu1j0t3: you can try and reverse engineer other people's solutions if you don't mind spoilers. for me, i hate spoilers, i prefer to work it out myself even if it takes me a day (and Hanoi always takes me a while because i always forget the solution  :)
2016-10-25T03:29:07Z n_blownapart: yeah I'd like to understand from a math point of view. there are "perfect" and "normal" solutions apparently. thanks frankly I have used spoilers since I began sicp. I need the solutions. even with them in front of me, I am often clueless.
2016-10-25T03:29:11Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3,
2016-10-25T03:29:15Z qu1j0t3: anyway hopefully doing it by hand, together with the principle that the algorithm should be recursive, and a recursive method is just: I know how to solve THIS problem once a smaller subproblem has been solved. -- should be enough
2016-10-25T03:29:29Z qu1j0t3: there's not really a 'math point of view' here.
2016-10-25T03:29:44Z qu1j0t3: it's just 1) physical puzzle + 2) develop a recursive solution.
2016-10-25T03:29:56Z qu1j0t3: i think Hanoi is only useful in that it's practice for the latter.
2016-10-25T03:30:21Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: Do you understand binary search trees?
2016-10-25T03:31:17Z n_blownapart: cool, other types of recursion I do understand fairly well, so far. binary search trees? not by their title at least.
2016-10-25T03:31:42Z qu1j0t3: ok.
2016-10-25T03:31:55Z n_blownapart: Is that like the linear recursive fibonacci problem?
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2016-10-25T03:32:35Z qu1j0t3: only in the general sense that a recursive answer is "I can solve the problem in front of me in 1 step assuming this slightly smaller subproblem is already solved."
2016-10-25T03:32:45Z qu1j0t3: keep that principle firmly in mind
2016-10-25T03:33:22Z qu1j0t3: for example, list length. for a non-NIL list, "It's 1 + (the length of the list tail)"
2016-10-25T03:33:45Z qu1j0t3: the "smaller subproblem" is "length of tail/CDR" and the "one step" is "add one"
2016-10-25T03:33:54Z qu1j0t3: Hanoi is no different
2016-10-25T03:34:17Z qu1j0t3: and nor are the other recursive problems we've talked about like integer exponentiation or, yeah, the Fibonacci evaluation
2016-10-25T03:35:15Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: those last two have two different reduction steps, that's all. that makes them a bit more interesting than list length.
2016-10-25T03:35:19Z n_blownapart: man I wish I could hire you as a tutor for a bit. you're residing in another continent, sadly . qu1j0t3
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2016-10-25T03:35:36Z qu1j0t3: yeah it would be fun
2016-10-25T03:35:45Z qu1j0t3: i'm a student too, tho :)
2016-10-25T03:36:45Z n_blownapart: very kind of you to help
2016-10-25T03:37:13Z qu1j0t3: see if you can solve a really small Hanoi on paper. it's possible the intuition will leap out
2016-10-25T03:37:55Z qu1j0t3: that's why i call it "practice". it's great you tackle those other problems because the more time you spend in recursive-land, the easier it gets.
2016-10-25T03:38:53Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: Did you get hold of the book "Thinking Recursively" ?
2016-10-25T03:39:14Z n_blownapart: the binary exponentiation "trick" in problem 1.119 is fascinating. I'm still greping the subtleties. the book? no did you mention it?
2016-10-25T03:39:34Z n_blownapart: *1.19
2016-10-25T03:39:42Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: I think even before you tackle Hanoi, you should aim to understand integer exponentiation solution *completely*.
2016-10-25T03:39:57Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: I think I may have mentioned it long ago, but if not -- I recommend it.
2016-10-25T03:40:20Z n_blownapart: integer exponentiation solution? e.g ?
2016-10-25T03:40:37Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: the one we were discussing in days past. from sicp
2016-10-25T03:40:55Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: If there's any part of that you don't get, we should fix that :)
2016-10-25T03:43:39Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3, yeah thanks a lot. if we worked on it, chances are I understand it decently well. ... as I mentioned earlier, I'm slightly ill. I need to sign off qu1j0t3   .. but, looking now, you are recommending a book on java recursion?
2016-10-25T03:44:46Z qu1j0t3: no.
2016-10-25T03:44:48Z qu1j0t3: definitely not.
2016-10-25T03:44:56Z n_blownapart: oh hold on
2016-10-25T03:45:11Z qu1j0t3: the book i recommended is by Eric S. Roberts
2016-10-25T03:46:48Z qu1j0t3 has to go too
2016-10-25T03:47:14Z n_blownapart: ok later, yeah he wrote another one " "... in Java.
2016-10-25T03:47:16Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3,
2016-10-25T03:47:44Z n_blownapart: thanks much for the help
2016-10-25T03:48:40Z qu1j0t3: yw
2016-10-25T03:49:33Z Riastradh: n_blownapart: Here's an amusing variation on the theme of square-and-multiply exponentiation, in the setting of computing multiplicative inverses in finite fields: http://mumble.net/~campbell/2015/01/21/inverse-mod-power-of-two
2016-10-25T03:50:43Z n_blownapart: good lord Riastradh . one moment please...
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2016-10-25T03:55:30Z n_blownapart: Riastradh, thanks for that.. way over my head .. though I did tackle Binet's formula for fibonacci numbers in the sicp book
2016-10-25T03:57:06Z n_blownapart: Riastradh, by the way, any pointers on how is a self-taught student of scheme to learn this stuff without a cs background? I'm having a hell of a time.
2016-10-25T03:57:21Z Riastradh: Which stuff do you want to learn?  What's your goal?
2016-10-25T03:59:19Z n_blownapart: Riastradh, I want to master scheme, the turing machine, eval /apply , lambda calculus, the whole bit. eventually to make a good living programming. I am excited to learn higher math as well. so someone advised me to learn scheme about a year ago
2016-10-25T03:59:34Z n_blownapart: really *master* it
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2016-10-25T04:00:12Z n_blownapart: I find sicp and the video lectures very opaque to say the least.
2016-10-25T04:00:46Z Riastradh: If SICP isn't your speed, you might try _How to Design Programs_, <http://www.htdp.org/>.
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2016-10-25T04:01:25Z n_blownapart: hmm.. I'm getting a lot from sicp, but it is *dreadfully* slow without a physical classroom.
2016-10-25T04:01:39Z Riastradh: You might also try _The Little Schemer_.
2016-10-25T04:02:07Z Riastradh: You might also find a SICP reading group to participate in, if you're following slowly but lacking in society.
2016-10-25T04:02:18Z n_blownapart: oh boy. yeah I have that . frankly I got stuck halfway through chapter 4. bloody complicated.
2016-10-25T04:02:26Z n_blownapart: ^ little schemer
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2016-10-25T04:03:17Z n_blownapart: but its looking easier now that I've been working on sicp. there is a study group for sicp but its in silicon valley. I live in Berkeley CA
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2016-10-25T04:17:27Z n_blownapart: Riastradh, also if you have time, I'd like to study programming so that I can learn math along the way. My goal is the most interesting, challenging coding job possible. I was told by a scholar that in two years tens of thousands of coding jobs in big Data will be unfilled. That was encouraging.. any comments?
2016-10-25T04:20:38Z Riastradh: Big Data is hot right now.  I'm sure there are zillions of `data scientist' positions open right now to anyone who can breathe and bang out a program in R or a trivial application of Tensorflow.
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2016-10-25T04:27:25Z n_blownapart: thanks Riastradh . more generally, more and more I'm excited by mathematics. I find that scheme code actually helps me grasp math. so should I just keep chugging along with sicp / little schemer? another book, if you can comment on it : Thinking Recursively - recommended by member here..
2016-10-25T04:27:31Z n_blownapart: Riastradh, ^
2016-10-25T04:27:37Z Riastradh: Not familiar with that book.
2016-10-25T04:28:00Z n_blownapart: thank you
2016-10-25T04:29:34Z Riastradh: Certainly many fine minds in my circles got their start on SICP and The Little Schemer.
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2016-10-25T04:50:47Z n_blownapart: Riastradh, excellent thanks..  I just bought above mentioned book on recursion. good reviews.
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2016-10-25T06:41:34Z wasamasa: one day n_blownapart will learn that CS and programming are two different things
2016-10-25T06:42:23Z wasamasa: Riastradh: that description of data scientist positions sounds realistic enough to me
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2016-10-26T14:19:27Z lalex: I'm probably asking the obvious, but should I use SRFI-109 when I want to add a more convenient string literal syntax to my dialect? especially when I want to prevent double-slashing in regular expressions.
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2016-10-26T14:21:03Z ecraven: to me, that does not look like what I think of as Scheme at all :)
2016-10-26T14:22:04Z C-Keen: what's srfi-109 again?
2016-10-26T14:22:14Z lalex: &{\s*fo+bar\s*} vs "\\s*fo+bar\\s*" - I kind of liked the multiple quoting options perl offers using q{...} or q#...#
2016-10-26T14:22:35Z lalex: srfi-108 to srfi-109 seem heavily java influenced from the Kawa developer
2016-10-26T14:22:48Z lalex: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-109/srfi-109.html Extended string quasi-literals
2016-10-26T14:23:11Z lalex: Chicken scheme uses #<# or something like that for multiline strings including interpolation
2016-10-26T14:23:41Z lalex: https://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/Non-standard%20read%20syntax#multiline-string-constant
2016-10-26T14:23:41Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/M8v6vwn9VI
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2016-10-26T14:24:38Z jonaslund: lalex: that chicken thing is basically HEREDOC
2016-10-26T14:24:47Z lalex: yes, it's differnt
2016-10-26T14:24:59Z lalex: different purpose
2016-10-26T14:25:29Z jonaslund: hmh
2016-10-26T14:26:11Z lalex: Racket uses #rx"..." for regular expressions, but it doesn't solve the requirement not to double-backslash stuff
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2016-10-26T14:27:48Z C-Keen: for regular expressions I would use irregex
2016-10-26T14:28:15Z lalex: r7rs specifies #u8(...) as syntax for "special" string literals
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2016-10-26T14:29:31Z ecraven: lalex: isn't that for byte content? not strings at all?
2016-10-26T14:29:55Z lalex: ecraven: yes
2016-10-26T14:30:16Z lalex: you are right, I forgot how it works x_X
2016-10-26T14:30:18Z gwatt: I though byte arrays used #vu8
2016-10-26T14:30:28Z gwatt: Is u8 different?
2016-10-26T14:30:55Z lalex: no, it's #u8(3 34 39 255 1)
2016-10-26T14:31:20Z lalex: byte vector according to r7rs small
2016-10-26T14:32:22Z lalex: maybe something like #`...` would make sense. at least it would vibe with the already existing reader extensions.
2016-10-26T14:32:39Z ecraven: ` is not related to strings at all in Scheme
2016-10-26T14:32:48Z lalex: ' isn't too
2016-10-26T14:32:52Z ecraven: #" would be the only thing that resembles strings
2016-10-26T14:33:07Z lalex: hmm
2016-10-26T14:33:27Z lalex: #"..." for strings where only " can be quoted using \
2016-10-26T14:33:37Z lalex: would that make sense?
2016-10-26T14:33:59Z ecraven: first, check whether anyone uses #" for anything yet
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2016-10-26T14:35:04Z lalex: ecraven: Racket does
2016-10-26T14:35:51Z ecraven: what do you actually want to achieve?
2016-10-26T14:36:02Z jonaslund: I wonder if mustache templates would integrated with scheme syntax
2016-10-26T14:36:48Z lalex: ecraven: I just want to type regexes in string literals without having my eyes falling out due too too many \\\\\
2016-10-26T14:37:05Z ecraven: lalex: ever considered using schemely regular expressions, instead of perl ones?
2016-10-26T14:37:06Z lalex: the regeexes are passed to a C library, so thats why irregex is not an option
2016-10-26T14:37:20Z ecraven: why not? can it not convert to a string?
2016-10-26T14:37:21Z jonaslund: (let  ((x "world")  #{{Hello {{x}} }} )
2016-10-26T14:38:03Z lalex: ecraven: thats possible, yes
2016-10-26T14:38:19Z ecraven: sre->string would be my first guess
2016-10-26T14:38:51Z ecraven: I know that's not what you asked for, but imho there *is* no good way to write perl regexes, they are always ugly
2016-10-26T14:38:57Z wasamasa: that's how rx works in elisp
2016-10-26T14:39:10Z wasamasa: it compiles the lispy syntax to emacs regex
2016-10-26T14:39:46Z lalex: hmm
2016-10-26T14:40:20Z lalex: sre->string is indeed the most "schemey" way
2016-10-26T14:42:16Z lalex: thanks for the input all
2016-10-26T14:42:25Z lalex: have to commute home now
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2016-10-26T14:44:41Z jonaslund: are other scheme implementations other than racket moving towards immutable cells ?
2016-10-26T14:47:41Z ecraven: cell as in pair?
2016-10-26T14:50:23Z qu1j0t3: ecraven: multiline and comments can help
2016-10-26T14:50:42Z jonaslund: ecraven: yeah
2016-10-26T14:52:04Z ecraven: qu1j0t3: I'm no expert by all means, but I find anything sexp-like so much easier to understand than plain text regexps
2016-10-26T14:52:46Z ecraven: jonaslund: I don't think so, but nothing prevents you from *not* mutating cons cells in Scheme :) [of course, it's hard to enforce it if you are a library]
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2016-10-26T14:53:20Z qu1j0t3: ecraven: sure, but if that's all ya got, you can mitigate it a little
2016-10-26T14:53:32Z jcowan: hey ho
2016-10-26T14:54:45Z ecraven: hey :)
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2016-10-26T14:55:01Z ecraven: jcowan: is that keyword argument proposal you mentioned on trac? is it the one by arcfide?
2016-10-26T14:55:16Z jcowan: Yes
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2016-10-26T14:55:53Z jcowan: It works: the only annoying bit is that you have to be careful, if two libraries export the same keyword, to import it only once (it doesn't matter from where)
2016-10-26T14:56:02Z jonaslund: ecraven: i was reading the racket peoples experiences with immutable pairs that most code they went through didn't mutate anyhow (they have mcons for mutable pairs so rewriting that code that required it wasn't too hard)
2016-10-26T14:56:29Z ecraven: jonaslund: personally, I almost never use set-car/cdr!, but there are times when it comes in handy :)
2016-10-26T14:57:33Z ecraven: what does this mean: " want to use this illustration to point out the utility of opaque records, as well as demonstrating that syntax and records can go a long way to deal with a lot of these issues, and so I wish to avoid needlessly complicating the language with additional features that are not really necessary, and may in fact be inferior solutions."
2016-10-26T14:57:45Z ecraven: should be "I want to use ...
2016-10-26T14:58:06Z ecraven: is that a suggestion to pass a record instead of a bunch of keyword parameters to a function?
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2016-10-26T14:58:27Z jcowan: Personally, I favor quasi-quoted a-lists or p-lists over any of these solutions
2016-10-26T14:59:10Z ecraven: jcowan: upon a little reflection, the main reason why I want keyword arguments is that I would *see* them in the argument list documentation (in SLIME or geiser)
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2016-10-26T14:59:35Z ecraven: I don't care much how they are passed, but if it's just one parameter `keyword-args`, I don't know anything about what valid values are
2016-10-26T15:00:00Z jcowan: Good point.
2016-10-26T15:00:09Z jonaslund: ecraven: why i'm asking is because if immutable pairs for most parts is used then moving code to actor style concurrency is dead simple and one could get most benefits that the Erlang runtime has in the GC department when it comes to concurrency and low latency
2016-10-26T15:00:24Z ecraven: but I've never been able to think of a good way of how optional, keyword and rest arguments interact... it's always wonky
2016-10-26T15:00:34Z jcowan: That is precisely why I created a SRFI for immutable pairs
2016-10-26T15:00:38Z ecraven: jonaslund: have you looked at Termite?
2016-10-26T15:01:06Z jonaslund: ecraven: i have read about it long ago but forgot the name, gonna look back for a sec
2016-10-26T15:01:13Z ecraven: I like immutable pairs, but I *don't* want to use separate functions for mutable and immutable pairs :-/
2016-10-26T15:01:23Z jcowan: Racket doesn't care about conformance to standards, so they can change standard pairs to immutable, but "who cares about the standard?", while reasonable for application programmers, is not so reasonable for standardizers.
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2016-10-26T15:02:00Z ecraven: jcowan: well, if anyone could change it, it would be some rnrs. if enough implementations would agree that it would be a good idea?
2016-10-26T15:02:09Z ecraven: (which they probably don't, just saying .. :)
2016-10-26T15:02:37Z jonaslund: jcowan: their solution is basically that they export the mutable pair functions as the default for their R5RS mode while racket specific (or "modern"?) code gets immutable
2016-10-26T15:03:37Z jonaslund: I personally like most things immutable as long as i have an escape hatch
2016-10-26T15:04:31Z ecraven: jonaslund: I think the main problem is things like: I want to map over this immutable list, but may want to mutate the result, so I'd prefer to have map->mutable in addition to map (i.e. map->immutable)
2016-10-26T15:04:37Z ecraven: but I might be imagining things here :)
2016-10-26T15:05:19Z ecraven: mutable pairs sure are nice to have for things like deques
2016-10-26T15:05:28Z ecraven: though vectors might work just as fine there
2016-10-26T15:06:07Z ecraven: with things like `shared', you can do most of the "normal" things you'd use set-car/cdr! for, I think?
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2016-10-26T15:08:23Z jonaslund: hmm how do you mean shared?
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2016-10-26T15:13:31Z ecraven: there's a function `shared' in racket
2016-10-26T15:13:42Z ecraven: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/shared.html
2016-10-26T15:14:03Z ecraven: (shared ((a (cons 1 a))) a)  will return  #0='(1 . #0#)
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2016-10-26T15:20:36Z jonaslund: ah
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2016-10-26T15:23:49Z jonaslund: though the grammar on that page does make a distinction of immutables and looking futher down the page there is a failing cons sample where mcons succeeds
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2016-10-26T15:28:56Z jcowan: ecraven: It would be a win if pairs were immutable, but the RnRS series is not very willing to break backward compatibility.
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2016-10-26T15:29:35Z jcowan: Nothing in R7RS prevents car, cdr, etc. from operating on immutable as well as mutable pairs.  The reason the SRFI doesn't mandate that is that many compilers inline them, and redefining them typically breaks that.
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2016-10-26T15:30:25Z jcowan: And even if your code is entirely about immutable pairs, you still will be delivered mutable lists when you call variadic functions, which means you have to be careful to call car and cdr on them, not icar and icdr.
2016-10-26T15:30:58Z ecraven: jcowan: well, you need compiler support for some things in r7rs anyway, so why could r8rs not make *that* one of those things? :D
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2016-10-26T15:31:49Z jcowan: Which things?
2016-10-26T15:33:03Z ecraven: modules?
2016-10-26T15:33:13Z ecraven: well, not strictly compiler, but syntax layer
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2016-10-26T15:33:22Z ecraven: the exception stuff maybe?
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2016-10-26T15:43:39Z ecraven: parameters too, I think?
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2016-10-26T15:59:39Z jcowan: Parameters are purely run-time and can (in a single-threaded context) be implemented portably.
2016-10-26T16:00:25Z jcowan: Exceptions ditto; the issue for them is whether it's easy to integrate them into the existing condition systems that essentially all Schemes have.
2016-10-26T16:01:59Z cojy: how would it be a win if pairs were immutable
2016-10-26T16:02:42Z DeeEff[m]: Isn't SRFI-116 exactly for the use case of immutable pairs?
2016-10-26T16:02:57Z DeeEff[m]: I guess they're called "ilists" in the same way pairs are lists
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2016-10-26T16:05:49Z ecraven: DeeEff[m]: I think the problem is interoperability between ipairs and pairs
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2016-10-26T16:08:11Z DeeEff[m]: well I guess. Originally I learned from a C/C++ background, where "const" and immutability was something explicit. IMO writing `icar` or `icdr` and `ilist` or `icons` is easy enough to switch for my purposes.
2016-10-26T16:09:00Z DeeEff[m]: Of course speaking to the RnRS standards, I think mutable lists should be left as is. Not necessarily for BC, but because a lot of Scheme changes drastically if you make them immutable by default
2016-10-26T16:14:49Z ecraven: DeeEff[m]: the problem is, you get mutable lists from many functions, so you have to use car/cdr all over the place instead of icar/icdr
2016-10-26T16:15:00Z ecraven: like rest parameter lists, the results of all functions in r7rs, etc.
2016-10-26T16:15:11Z ecraven: it would be nice if they returned whatever type of list they were given :)
2016-10-26T16:20:23Z DeeEff[m]: maybe. I mean, it's sort of the same problem with streams / lseqs thoguh
2016-10-26T16:20:28Z DeeEff[m]: s/thoguh/though/
2016-10-26T16:20:57Z DeeEff[m]: you'd need a special `iapply` and `lseq-apply` and `stream-apply` for every scenario
2016-10-26T16:21:14Z DeeEff[m]: this is just something that happens in Scheme because of the way types are handled
2016-10-26T16:21:30Z DeeEff[m]: none of the above methods is necessarily right or wrong
2016-10-26T16:21:47Z jonaslund: ecraven: had time to skim the termite paper again and termite also uses immutable pairs
2016-10-26T16:21:59Z ecraven: jonaslund: yes, termite has no (or almost no) mutation
2016-10-26T16:22:12Z ecraven: DeeEff[m]: but some are more inconvenient than others :-/
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2016-10-26T16:22:54Z DeeEff[m]: to that I'd say "depends on the use case." Some are more inconvenient at times, others more convenient at times.
2016-10-26T16:24:24Z ecraven: DeeEff[m]: yes, but I'd wager the common use case is you want the same type of list back that you put into a function
2016-10-26T16:24:36Z ecraven: so if you work with ipairs, you want ipairs from filter/map/...
2016-10-26T16:24:54Z DeeEff[m]: you're thinking along the lines of Clojure's protocols. Which even then don't really work that way.
2016-10-26T16:24:57Z jonaslund: ecraven: I got an itch to scratch last week so i've been working on implementing a minimal JIT compiling runtime and now that i'm starting to getting it working i'm pondering on the dialect, would be fun to be able to build some actor concurrency on top of it
2016-10-26T16:25:21Z DeeEff[m]: e.g. (map (lambda (x) (+ 1)) [1 2 3 4]) in clojure returns a list => (2 3 4 5)
2016-10-26T16:25:36Z DeeEff[m]: where [1 2 3 4] is a persistent vector, and (2 3 4 5) is a linked list
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2016-10-26T16:41:39Z jcowan: Which is what's inconvenient about the Racket approach: they only provide dead minimal support for mpairs, no SRFI 1 analogue
2016-10-26T16:42:15Z jcowan: With SRFI 116, you get pretty much the same support for both, although you need to insert a shim now and then.
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2016-10-26T16:56:20Z pierpa: do really people mutate conses?
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2016-10-26T16:57:53Z jcowan: Not often, but it's like asking if people mutate variables.  When you want it, you *really* want it.
2016-10-26T16:58:06Z pierpa: hmmm
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2016-10-26T17:31:46Z ecraven: DeeEff[m]: that sounds interesting, you're working on a JITing Scheme?
2016-10-26T17:32:16Z DeeEff[m]: ecraven: not me, but jonaslund
2016-10-26T17:32:20Z DeeEff[m]: :)
2016-10-26T17:32:32Z ecraven: ah, sorry, wrong line :)
2016-10-26T17:32:35Z ecraven: jonaslund: ^ :)
2016-10-26T17:33:21Z jonaslund: ecraven: yeah, been wanting to do a jit for a long time so i thought that i'd give it a stab
2016-10-26T17:33:57Z jonaslund: gonna try to keep it small to embed easily and get an jit inside anyhow
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2016-10-26T17:34:51Z ecraven: jonaslund: which jit are you looking at?
2016-10-26T17:35:01Z jonaslund: hmh ?
2016-10-26T17:35:28Z jonaslund: writing from scratch
2016-10-26T17:36:12Z jonaslund: got an idea that might be easier to implement (hopefully :D )
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2016-10-26T17:36:48Z jonaslund: basically the ideas is to defer code generation until i arrive at that point in the program
2016-10-26T17:37:16Z ecraven: jonaslund: you'll write your own JIT? which architectures?
2016-10-26T17:37:54Z jonaslund: x64 for now
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2016-10-26T17:38:51Z jonaslund: compiling (display 123) f.ex. will generate a load for display, and then the recompiler sees that display is a function and insert code for evaluating a regular call
2016-10-26T17:39:24Z sosho: jonaslund: what happens if `display` is redefined later?
2016-10-26T17:39:35Z jonaslund: (thus you could override + and it'd just recompile the code if it encounters this)
2016-10-26T17:40:06Z ecraven: sosho: some lisps keep track of all places where a function is used, and just recompile on demand
2016-10-26T17:40:38Z jonaslund: yeah, that could be possible to do later but i'm gonna try to keep it fairly simple now :)
2016-10-26T17:41:44Z jonaslund: this is mostly an experiment how fast i can make a fairly naive one
2016-10-26T17:42:15Z jonaslund: (naive in terms of register allocation and specializations but with a decent design)
2016-10-26T17:43:22Z ecraven: keep us up to date
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2016-10-26T17:45:13Z jonaslund: sure thing, goes up on github as soon as i can run fibonacchi
2016-10-26T17:45:27Z jonaslund: and maybe some other samples
2016-10-26T17:45:28Z sosho: yeah definitely interested too
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2016-10-26T17:50:18Z qu1j0t3: good blog project
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2016-10-26T21:01:41Z cojy: jonaslund: how iwll you do the code generation? use an existing assembler? write your own?
2016-10-26T21:01:50Z cojy: i'm looking to do similar
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2016-10-26T21:04:16Z jonaslund: cojy: wrote my own
2016-10-26T21:05:06Z jonaslund: i'm dealing mostly with 64bit words so it's simplified quite a bit (though i've designed it so that i'll be able to re-use most of the code if i want to do an x86 variant)
2016-10-26T21:05:58Z jonaslund: but i'm also taking shortcuts where it makes sense
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2016-10-26T21:06:43Z jonaslund: (still it might be over-designed... not sure really until i've used it enough :D )
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2016-10-26T21:07:05Z ecraven: jonaslund: is the assembler public?
2016-10-26T21:07:35Z jonaslund: ecraven: i'm aiming at making this a "single-file-lib" so it's all in one .hpp and one .cpp file :)
2016-10-26T21:07:43Z jonaslund: (and the code is not pretty right now)
2016-10-26T21:07:48Z jonaslund: haven't really gotten that far yet
2016-10-26T21:07:52Z ecraven: ah, I was assuming you wrote the assembler in Scheme
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2016-10-26T21:08:07Z ecraven: that would have been interesting
2016-10-26T21:08:10Z jonaslund: nah, intending to make it embeddable
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2016-10-26T21:15:27Z cojy: jonaslund: i'm interested to see it, I want to make one just to 1:1 translate bytecode to asm for a bit of a speedup with as little code as possible
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2016-10-26T21:17:32Z cojy: btw about earlier
2016-10-26T21:17:54Z cojy: can ANYONE explain how immutable pairs is an improvement???
2016-10-26T21:18:41Z wasamasa: only if you use less question marks
2016-10-26T21:19:53Z qu1j0t3: immutability in general is an improvement, and if it's enforced, you have a chance at relying on the property of referential transparency
2016-10-26T21:20:15Z cojy: how is it a general improvement, there's no evidence to support th at
2016-10-26T21:20:29Z qu1j0t3: so these assemblers we're talking about -- do they parse text? cuz it doesn't seem to be necessary?
2016-10-26T21:20:42Z qu1j0t3: cojy: i don't think the benefits of RT are really 'unproven'
2016-10-26T21:20:53Z qu1j0t3: cojy: or the costs of mutability
2016-10-26T21:20:56Z cojy: yes they are there are several long paperse analyzing languages
2016-10-26T21:21:07Z cojy: and the amount of bugs found in them and their code length etc
2016-10-26T21:21:19Z cojy: there's no documented study showing an advantage
2016-10-26T21:21:42Z cojy: so i would say that's "unproven" unless you can find some
2016-10-26T21:22:19Z rain1: immutable pairs are just a cargo cult thing - confused people desperate for a magic fix
2016-10-26T21:22:53Z ecraven: cojy: personally, I'd just find it nice to be able to enforce immutability if I want it
2016-10-26T21:23:02Z qu1j0t3: i don't really know what to say to you. most of my debugging career has been specifically fighting non-RT code. Erlang alone is a demonstration of how immutability leads to entirely different engineering possibilities.
2016-10-26T21:23:42Z qu1j0t3: you're basically saying there's no value in purity -- but if that's what you believe, I clearly can't change your mind
2016-10-26T21:24:00Z cojy: it's not a belief, it's been studied
2016-10-26T21:24:03Z qu1j0t3: i'd recommend spending some years writing RT/pure code before really giving up on it, though.
2016-10-26T21:24:04Z cojy: and erlang is filled with mutability
2016-10-26T21:24:51Z cojy: i've written both for many years...
2016-10-26T21:25:26Z qu1j0t3: it's a curious thing that your conclusions are so divergent from mine and others', but vive la difference.
2016-10-26T21:26:00Z qu1j0t3: you'd probably have to shoot down that proposal via jcowan though, before the madness takes too great a hold
2016-10-26T21:27:26Z jcowan chuckles.
2016-10-26T21:27:41Z jcowan: If you do not like ipairs, do not use them.
2016-10-26T21:27:54Z rain1: i wish racket had ipairs
2016-10-26T21:27:56Z ecraven: well, it's a different thing to *remove* mutable pairs entirely or to give you the choice of pairs and ipairs ;)
2016-10-26T21:28:08Z ecraven: rain1: racket has mpairs :)
2016-10-26T21:28:08Z rain1: I've quit using racket to be honest, it's just too much trouble
2016-10-26T21:28:44Z jcowan: Exactly.  That's why I proposed going with ipairs rather than changing Scheme pairs, and the WG went along.
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2016-10-26T21:29:47Z ecraven: jcowan: though it would be great to be *able* to use ipairs exclusively everywhere, and have each function return the same type it is given... magically.. :D
2016-10-26T21:30:17Z jcowan: I agree, and that's something Scheme implementers can do under the R5RS/R7RS extensibility rules.
2016-10-26T21:30:24Z rain1: ecraven, what would be the point?
2016-10-26T21:30:38Z rain1: (You could implement this if you wanted to)
2016-10-26T21:31:36Z jcowan: As I said, compilers that only know how to inline the standard car wouldn't be able to cope with the hybrid car/icar.  You also still need two sets of constructors, cons and icons, unfold and iunfold.
2016-10-26T21:31:36Z jonaslund: cojy: what kind of bytecode are you starting from ?
2016-10-26T21:31:54Z ecraven: jcowan: just saying it would be nice (even if impossible)
2016-10-26T21:31:59Z rain1: it's possible
2016-10-26T21:32:15Z ecraven: rain1: if I have a list of ipairs and run filter/map/whatever-else on it, I probably want a list of ipairs back, not pairs
2016-10-26T21:32:25Z rain1: but why not just use normal lists?
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2016-10-26T21:32:57Z ecraven: rain1: because I cannot enforce immutability on them
2016-10-26T21:33:19Z cojy: jonaslund: not sure what you mean by "kind" but its a very simple register vm
2016-10-26T21:33:48Z jcowan: Which means when programming in the large that you have to worry about copying them.
2016-10-26T21:34:29Z cojy: jonaslund: mostly 3-address, registers are stack slots, flattened to near-asm except things like calls are a single variable size instruction
2016-10-26T21:34:39Z rain1: why do you want to enforce immutability?
2016-10-26T21:35:25Z jonaslund: rain1: these discussions started because i wondered if others were going in the direction of racket in making immutable the default
2016-10-26T21:36:18Z jonaslund: and i was wondering because immutable makes more sense in a multi-threaded/distributed environment
2016-10-26T21:36:46Z qu1j0t3: "more", but still extremely useful in a single threaded program
2016-10-26T21:37:05Z qu1j0t3: of course, i'm disregarding actual research here and only citing experience ;-)
2016-10-26T21:37:11Z jonaslund: qu1j0t3: yes, i agree
2016-10-26T21:38:11Z jonaslund: going full immutable is throwing out everything for no good reason
2016-10-26T21:38:15Z jcowan: A simple case: you have a data structure "glot bucket" and you have a function to return a list of the glots in the bucket.  If the data structure maintains the list internally, and you just return that list, then if anyone mutates the list the glot bucket is destroyed.
2016-10-26T21:38:29Z cojy: "persistent" data structures add features and are almost always combined with a mutable cell and also transient versions of them
2016-10-26T21:38:31Z jcowan: So to be safe you have to return a copy of the internal list.  With ilists, there is no need to do so.
2016-10-26T21:38:31Z qu1j0t3: jonaslund: not sure that's really true ... a lot of people prefer to write pure code by default.
2016-10-26T21:38:32Z cojy: immutable pairs over mutable adds nothing, only removes
2016-10-26T21:38:58Z qu1j0t3: and you don't have RT until you can prove it's RT
2016-10-26T21:39:08Z jcowan: What is added is safety.
2016-10-26T21:39:11Z ecraven: qu1j0t3: I'd agree that it would be nice to have the *option* of using mutable pairs, but I'd make immutable the default :)
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2016-10-26T21:39:27Z jcowan: qu1j0t3: What is RT?
2016-10-26T21:39:28Z cojy: no safety is added, there can be a mutable structure inside the pairs
2016-10-26T21:39:33Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: referential transparency
2016-10-26T21:39:38Z rain1: hrm
2016-10-26T21:39:42Z cojy: its either the whole language or you are just pretending
2016-10-26T21:39:43Z rain1: oh well if nobody is going ot answer my question...
2016-10-26T21:40:07Z qu1j0t3: cojy: Haskell agrees
2016-10-26T21:41:47Z jcowan: cojy: If glots are immutable (either inherently, or because no mutator is exposed) then an ilist of glots is immutable.
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2016-10-26T21:43:32Z cojy: the point is "glots" can be mutable
2016-10-26T21:43:48Z cojy: and the same person taht would mutate "your" pair woudl be the same one that would put a mutable glot in it to get the same functionality
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2016-10-26T21:44:22Z jcowan: Glots are mutable if I let you mutate them.
2016-10-26T21:44:39Z jcowan: This assumes that glots and glot buckets are implemented together.
2016-10-26T21:44:52Z cojy: (icons (box #f) '())
2016-10-26T21:44:57Z cojy: is not safer than (cons #f '())
2016-10-26T21:45:22Z jcowan: Right, but glots are not conses
2016-10-26T21:45:33Z rain1: I feel my IQ dropping
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2016-10-26T21:46:52Z wasamasa: are you feeling lucky, punk?
2016-10-26T21:47:00Z jcowan: My point is that you can create immutable subsets of the objects without everything in the language needing to be immutable.
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2016-10-26T21:54:35Z ecraven: jcowan: that sounds like a very good thing to me :-)
2016-10-26T21:54:48Z pierpa: and Scheme adds nothing to assembly language, it only removes.
2016-10-26T21:55:00Z rain1: ecraven: why do you want to enforce immutability?
2016-10-26T21:55:33Z jcowan: I don't know why he does, but I've already said why I do.
2016-10-26T21:55:44Z rain1: <rain1> but why not just use normal lists?
2016-10-26T21:55:44Z rain1: * nilg (~user@77.70.2.229) has joined
2016-10-26T21:55:44Z rain1: <ecraven> rain1: because I cannot enforce immutability on them
2016-10-26T21:55:47Z rain1: is why I'm asking
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2016-10-26T21:57:52Z pierpa: jcowan: in your proposal what happens to rest lists?  no change or wil they be immutable?
2016-10-26T21:58:15Z jcowan: No change.  I do provide iapply, however.
2016-10-26T21:58:20Z pierpa: k
2016-10-26T21:58:46Z jcowan: (the portable implementation is simply to convert the ilist to a list and call apply)
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2016-10-26T21:58:59Z aarvar: qu1j0t3: sup
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2016-10-26T22:00:39Z qu1j0t3: aarvar: welcome
2016-10-26T22:01:54Z rain1: Well I guess it's a secret or something!
2016-10-26T22:03:49Z wasamasa: everything is a secret if you chose to ignore it
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2016-10-26T22:20:58Z ecraven: rain1: for the same reasons many other people want to enforce immutability
2016-10-26T22:21:05Z ecraven: to make sure I'm not mutating anything I really shouldn't
2016-10-26T22:21:17Z rain1: lol ok
2016-10-26T22:22:28Z ecraven: same reason why I wouldn't be averse to some type inference in my compiler, to notify me of obvious errors
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2016-10-26T22:56:45Z jonaslund: typeinference is a damn rabbits hole
2016-10-26T22:57:02Z jonaslund: doing a jit for a change now is immense fun :)
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2016-10-26T22:59:50Z jonaslund: cojy: got a planned platform ?
2016-10-26T22:59:59Z cojy: yes x64
2016-10-26T23:00:08Z jonaslund: well it's quite similar to x86
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2016-10-26T23:00:25Z jonaslund: not escaping those modrm encodings :)
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2016-10-26T23:21:47Z qu1j0t3: ecraven: +1
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2016-10-27T02:38:13Z n_blownapart: hi would anyone mind explaining line 20 ? This part : (- 6 from to)  . disregard trace, thanks https://www.refheap.com/123564
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2016-10-27T02:41:05Z pierpa: n_blownapart: is that code working?
2016-10-27T02:42:36Z n_blownapart: pierpa, hi, it just occured to me: I changed the argument order from the original code example. But I didn't change it under the solve function. but , yes, I think it works fine.
2016-10-27T02:42:56Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-10-27T02:43:20Z n_blownapart: do you see a problem? the printout helps me cheat on the physical puzzle
2016-10-27T02:43:21Z pierpa: what is *-?
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2016-10-27T02:44:11Z pierpa: ok, I'had missed the define at top
2016-10-27T02:44:17Z n_blownapart: that is just a trace. the parameter is (- 6 from to) . 6 is set like that for any input. I don't understand it.
2016-10-27T02:45:02Z pierpa: doesn't make any sense to me either
2016-10-27T02:46:12Z n_blownapart: If you run it, the trace returns >(*- 6 1 2) / <3
2016-10-27T02:46:23Z pierpa: ah, ok. got it
2016-10-27T02:46:42Z pierpa: nowhere is said that the pegs are named 1, 2, 3
2016-10-27T02:46:51Z pierpa: but it must be so
2016-10-27T02:47:27Z pierpa: so (- 6 from to) is the number of the peg which is neither the from peg nor the to one.
2016-10-27T02:47:32Z n_blownapart: yeah because you're setting the helper function solve
2016-10-27T02:48:02Z n_blownapart: so in this case there are 3 disks to move
2016-10-27T02:48:15Z pierpa: so, what'is that you don't understand?
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2016-10-27T02:48:56Z rain1: (- a b c ...) is short for (- a (+ b c ...))
2016-10-27T02:48:57Z n_blownapart: starting with line 20, that 3rd parameter for starters
2016-10-27T02:49:38Z pierpa: as I said (- 6 from to) is the number of the peg which is neither from nor to
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2016-10-27T02:49:46Z n_blownapart: correction 4th
2016-10-27T02:49:50Z pierpa: if from=1 to=2 then
2016-10-27T02:50:13Z pierpa: (- 6 from to) = 3  which is the peg ehich is neither from nor to
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2016-10-27T02:51:39Z pierpa: the pegs are 1, 2, and 3. The sum is 6. 6 - (sum of two of them) gives the remaining one.
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2016-10-27T02:52:18Z n_blownapart: sorry one moment please I need to look it this
2016-10-27T02:53:21Z pierpa: if instead of (- 6 from to) you put there 'aux the program will gain a lot in clarity.
2016-10-27T02:54:03Z n_blownapart: aux, you mean like "extra" ie extra peg ?
2016-10-27T02:58:01Z n_blownapart: pierpa why do you figure it was written that way, instead of using the same parameter name 'extra'  ?
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2016-10-27T03:05:31Z pierpa: for some reason they preferred to use numbers
2016-10-27T03:06:15Z n_blownapart: but what does it illustrate that 3 does not? sorry, I don't get this program pierpa
2016-10-27T03:07:13Z n_blownapart: the physical puzzle is a bear. here do it with 8 disks : http://vornlocher.de/tower.html
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2016-10-27T03:07:23Z pierpa: illustrates that (- 6 from to) which you were not understanding in fact is not an essential part of the algorithm
2016-10-27T03:07:28Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: you don't need to do it with 8 disks to begin to understand it...
2016-10-27T03:07:43Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: did you do it e.g. with 3 disks by hand
2016-10-27T03:08:07Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3, word thanks yeah I can do 8 disks but not at the min number of moves
2016-10-27T03:08:33Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: forget 8 disks until you see the intuition behind the recursive solution
2016-10-27T03:08:54Z n_blownapart: word qu1j0t3  by the way I bought that book. should have it tomm.
2016-10-27T03:09:19Z qu1j0t3 nods
2016-10-27T03:09:58Z n_blownapart: pierpa yeah ok I'm just going to forgo that -thank you
2016-10-27T03:10:29Z pierpa: n_blownapart: have you looked at Simply Scheme?
2016-10-27T03:10:52Z pierpa: it is simpler than SICP, and is touted as a good prequel to SICP
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2016-10-27T03:11:52Z n_blownapart: some uc berkeley videos of brian harvey, yeah . I had trouble with the ' character in racket. It was different. I had to load a different quote into racket I believe
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2016-10-27T03:12:00Z n_blownapart: pierpa, ^
2016-10-27T03:12:06Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-10-27T03:12:16Z pierpa: this one? https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/ss-toc2.html
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2016-10-27T03:12:52Z n_blownapart: yeah brian harvey is the author. I work at uc berkeley
2016-10-27T03:13:07Z n_blownapart: he's retired
2016-10-27T03:13:59Z pierpa: yes, I know
2016-10-27T03:14:43Z n_blownapart: pierpa generally do you think that tower of hanoi puzzle is difficult ? I mean I don't quite get it yet, but its starting to look reasonable
2016-10-27T03:15:26Z n_blownapart: yeah though sicp is going bloody slowly
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2016-10-27T03:15:54Z pierpa: it may be difficult to arrive at the solution on one's own. However the explanation shouldn't be hard to grasp
2016-10-27T03:16:59Z pierpa: do you know the algorithm *in plain english words* ?
2016-10-27T03:17:32Z n_blownapart: pardon ?
2016-10-27T03:18:35Z pierpa: can you explain me how to solve it?
2016-10-27T03:18:45Z pierpa: in English, not in Scheme
2016-10-27T03:20:25Z n_blownapart: well, the towers must start as smaller ones, as subsets of the original n , in order to move the larger disks onto the final post.
2016-10-27T03:21:23Z n_blownapart: so you build smaller towers on the 'pivotal' post, by making moves to all three posts.
2016-10-27T03:21:48Z n_blownapart: the 'subset' towers grow as they move from one post to another
2016-10-27T03:22:12Z n_blownapart: I could word it better.
2016-10-27T03:22:18Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-10-27T03:22:39Z pierpa: if I didn't already knew, after your explanation, I would still not know
2016-10-27T03:23:50Z pierpa: I'd explain in this way:
2016-10-27T03:23:54Z n_blownapart: I spent a long time with the physical puzzle. by changing the parameter order in the 2 (move-tower (decrementer) ...
2016-10-27T03:24:48Z n_blownapart: (move-tower (- size 1) from to extra)  (move-tower (- size 1) extra from to))))   << that is the meat of it. it is the parameters changing order
2016-10-27T03:25:32Z n_blownapart: the helper function is confusing me, not just the 'aux part
2016-10-27T03:25:34Z pierpa: to move a tower from peg a to peg b you 1. move a tower of one less disk from a to somewhere else, then 2. move the single disk which is in a to b, then 3. move the tower you had moved somewhere else to b, 4. done.
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2016-10-27T03:26:31Z pierpa: if the tower has 0 or 1 disk, then the task is greatly simplified :)
2016-10-27T03:28:27Z n_blownapart: pierpa yes, thanks. moving a tower of one less disk from a to somewhere else, involves plenty of moves. You can't see the intermediary work by looking at the code, can you?
2016-10-27T03:28:59Z n_blownapart: sans the print-move function
2016-10-27T03:29:12Z n_blownapart: i.e. its not intuitive
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2016-10-27T03:31:56Z pierpa: doesn't matter
2016-10-27T03:32:07Z pierpa: delegate to someone else
2016-10-27T03:32:23Z pierpa: ask a friend to move the n-1 tower for you
2016-10-27T03:32:35Z pierpa: then you move the single disk from a to b
2016-10-27T03:32:53Z pierpa: then you ask another friend to move the n-1 tower to b
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2016-10-27T15:35:56Z ecraven: :)
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2016-10-27T17:10:09Z jonaslund: ugh
2016-10-27T17:10:19Z jonaslund: gonna unwind a bit now continuing on the compiler
2016-10-27T17:10:43Z jonaslund has spent half his day fighting nodejs/react-native
2016-10-27T17:11:05Z jonaslund: an old version failed silently.. "kinda" working
2016-10-27T17:11:22Z jonaslund: then i looked at the dependencies... 345meg in 200k files
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2016-10-27T17:13:13Z jonaslund: (sorry just venting)
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2016-10-27T17:19:03Z gwatt: sounds gross
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2016-10-27T17:21:11Z jonaslund: indeed
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2016-10-27T17:21:49Z jonaslund: not sure if hacking on the scheme jit is enough... might have to take out my C-64 and do something on that to unwind :P
2016-10-27T17:22:32Z gwatt: scheme jit on C-64
2016-10-27T17:22:41Z gwatt: cover both bases
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2016-10-27T17:26:20Z jonaslund: haha
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2016-10-27T17:32:50Z jonaslund: got me thinking
2016-10-27T17:33:34Z jonaslund: there was an article some years back "what if the c64 was a lisp macine".. http://prog21.dadgum.com/104.html
2016-10-27T17:34:27Z jonaslund: the c64 is pretty well known by now, replacing the default ROM in an emulator could be possible
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2016-10-30T12:37:55Z amz3: this is a great day, a day where you feel the powerful aspects of your favorite language, this is a great day, the first day I use letrec
2016-10-30T12:37:57Z amz3: https://github.com/amirouche/scheme-todomvc/blob/master/main.scm#L136
2016-10-30T12:38:18Z amz3: now i need to support side effects
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2016-10-30T19:24:37Z MoronicAcid: Is there anyway for a function to get the expression tree for an argument rather than the value itself?
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2016-10-30T19:26:31Z ggole: That's usually called an fexpr. Scheme doesn't have them.
2016-10-30T19:27:51Z MoronicAcid: ggole: Is this feature under consideration for the next implementation of rnrs?
2016-10-30T19:27:55Z C-Keen: some scheme dialects have them, like Owl scheme
2016-10-30T19:28:04Z C-Keen: or lisp likes like picolisp
2016-10-30T19:29:10Z ggole: Or kernel, which is built around fexprs (if 'dialect' is the right term for the relation between kernel and scheme)
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2016-10-30T19:31:01Z C-Keen: right, kernel
2016-10-30T19:31:14Z MoronicAcid: ggole: Has anyone hacked them into Guile, by any chance?
2016-10-30T19:31:28Z pierpa: what do you want this for?
2016-10-30T19:32:07Z C-Keen: this is nothing you could hack in easily as an afterthought
2016-10-30T19:32:19Z MoronicAcid: pierpa: To make computing the logarithm of an exponent faster, or for doing Calculus on an expression.
2016-10-30T19:32:42Z ggole: You want to do staging?
2016-10-30T19:32:53Z MoronicAcid: (log-10 (expt 10 2)) -> 2
2016-10-30T19:32:56Z ggole: There's metascheme, iirc
2016-10-30T19:33:34Z ggole: http://okmij.org/ftp/meta-programming/#meta-scheme
2016-10-30T19:33:35Z MoronicAcid: Thanks.
2016-10-30T19:33:57Z ggole: Not sure what the status is, as I've never used it.
2016-10-30T19:34:11Z pierpa: MoronicAcid: if you want to operate on expressions then pass around expressions, no?
2016-10-30T19:34:47Z pierpa: there's no need of a new feature
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2016-10-30T19:38:54Z MoronicAcid: pierpa: But it is a pain in the ass to have to think about whether to pass as an argument a list representing an expression tree or an expression that will be precomputed before the function is even called.
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2016-10-30T19:39:32Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-10-30T19:39:36Z wasamasa: pretty much every lisp uses macros instead :P
2016-10-30T19:40:04Z MoronicAcid: For example, I want to optimize my log function to reduce exponents of the same base to a given power, but I should still be able to hand it live data.
2016-10-30T19:40:32Z MoronicAcid: By live data I mean any valid expression that would result in a number.
2016-10-30T19:41:16Z MoronicAcid: wasamasa: Can I do this with macros?
2016-10-30T19:41:28Z MoronicAcid: I've never used macros before...
2016-10-30T19:42:08Z cojy: yes
2016-10-30T19:42:11Z cojy: a macro is what you want
2016-10-30T19:42:20Z pierpa: you can write code as an expression, and have available both the expression and the result.  But I'd say it's not path that will lead to anything reasonable, IMO
2016-10-30T19:42:52Z pierpa: (in scheme, I don't know about other languages)
2016-10-30T19:42:56Z wasamasa: let's create a lisp dialect where all you get is macros and special forms
2016-10-30T19:43:07Z noethics: working on it
2016-10-30T19:43:12Z noethics: ;D
2016-10-30T19:43:14Z pierpa: :)
2016-10-30T19:43:34Z noethics: numeric tower is a pita i have to say
2016-10-30T19:43:43Z wasamasa: it's delicious?
2016-10-30T19:43:50Z noethics: yes
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2016-10-30T19:43:54Z noethics: deliciously painful
2016-10-30T19:43:55Z cojy: MoronicAcid: which scheme are you using?
2016-10-30T19:44:02Z MoronicAcid: cojy: Guile
2016-10-30T19:44:11Z wasamasa: personally, I'd leave optimization to the compiler
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2016-10-30T19:44:41Z pierpa: a Perfectly Integrated Terrific Awesomeness?
2016-10-30T19:44:48Z MoronicAcid: pierpa: What do you mean by "it's not [a] path that will lead to anything reasonable?"
2016-10-30T19:45:02Z noethics: -1-1--1-1i
2016-10-30T19:45:02Z cojy: MoronicAcid: syntax-case is probably the easiest way for this type of macro https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Syntax-Case.html
2016-10-30T19:45:25Z noethics: -1/-2-3/-4--5/-6-7/-8i
2016-10-30T19:45:30Z noethics: just scheme numbers
2016-10-30T19:45:38Z pierpa: what you want is called a FEXPR. There's a reason you don't see them in modern languages
2016-10-30T19:46:00Z MoronicAcid: cojy: Thanks.
2016-10-30T19:46:03Z wasamasa: pierpa: did you just call picolisp, newlisp and kernel not modern??
2016-10-30T19:46:45Z ecraven: pierpa: nlambda to the rescue!
2016-10-30T19:46:57Z pierpa: try this: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Special-Forms.html
2016-10-30T19:47:02Z noethics: was it r6rs or r7rs that introduced exact complex numbers?
2016-10-30T19:47:06Z pierpa: wasamasa: I retract my statement :)
2016-10-30T19:47:17Z noethics: i havent read r6rs for reasons
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2016-10-30T19:49:11Z noethics: -nan.0+-infnan.0/-infnan.0--nan.0/-nan.0i
2016-10-30T19:49:19Z noethics: who thought this was ok
2016-10-30T19:49:38Z noethics: s/infnan/inf/
2016-10-30T19:51:45Z noethics: chibi-scheme doesn't even support nan.0 in complex numbers, but the spec says it should  be allowed
2016-10-30T19:52:11Z noethics: how is this justifiable
2016-10-30T19:52:42Z pierpa: it's a scandal!
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2016-10-30T19:52:44Z pierpa: :)
2016-10-30T19:52:45Z ecraven: noethics: it can be written, so it should be readable too?
2016-10-30T19:53:10Z ecraven: also, is nan.0 any harder than inf.0 (which indeed is useful)?
2016-10-30T19:53:13Z noethics: i mean the justification of chibi-scheme not allowing it
2016-10-30T19:53:21Z ecraven: not saying it's easy or anything, just that it is useful
2016-10-30T19:53:22Z noethics: while the author also authored the spec that introduced it
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2016-10-30T19:53:28Z ecraven: maybe it's a bug / oversight
2016-10-30T19:53:32Z noethics: it's not
2016-10-30T19:53:38Z ecraven: foof`: ^
2016-10-30T19:53:38Z noethics: he said it's "by design"
2016-10-30T19:53:53Z ecraven: any further justification for it?
2016-10-30T19:54:07Z noethics: it's not logically valid to have nan in a complex number
2016-10-30T19:54:11Z noethics: i think the spec is at fault
2016-10-30T19:56:02Z ecraven: noethics: well, is a nan in a complex number any less valid than a nan itself?
2016-10-30T19:56:19Z ecraven: I mean, if a nan can be read, why shouldn't a complex with nan(s) be readable?
2016-10-30T19:56:23Z ecraven: readable as in READable
2016-10-30T19:56:31Z noethics: it is readable
2016-10-30T19:56:42Z noethics: or *should* be, as per spec
2016-10-30T19:56:54Z noethics: but it doesn't make sense, in the realm of imaginary numbers, for nan to occur
2016-10-30T19:56:54Z ecraven: ah, you mean it is readable, but results in an error when actually constructing the complex
2016-10-30T19:57:25Z ecraven: I probably misunderstand, but why does a nan make less sense in imaginary numbers than in real numbers?
2016-10-30T19:57:27Z noethics: in chibi it's not readable "by  design"
2016-10-30T19:58:05Z noethics: it doesn't make sense arithmetically, but a nan by itself can be useful for comparing ieee754 numbers
2016-10-30T19:58:44Z noethics: in a complex number, where you have a valid real part but an imaginary nan, makes less sense
2016-10-30T19:59:07Z ecraven: I'm not sure I understand why
2016-10-30T19:59:23Z noethics: because you can't get a nan from a compile time computation
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2016-10-30T19:59:53Z noethics: i suppose if you could check against it at runtime
2016-10-30T20:00:04Z ecraven: how do I produce a nan in chibi?
2016-10-30T20:00:06Z noethics: i don't know if that's something you can do, as chibi just doesn't let you read it
2016-10-30T20:00:23Z ecraven: I mean apart from nan.0 ;)
2016-10-30T20:00:36Z noethics: do a conversion to a number that's not a number i guess
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2016-10-30T20:01:40Z ecraven: noethics: is +inf.0++inf.0i a valid complex?
2016-10-30T20:01:49Z noethics: yes
2016-10-30T20:02:03Z ecraven: then just divide that by itself to get +nan.0++nan.0i
2016-10-30T20:02:12Z ecraven: though chibi says: > +inf.0++inf.0i
2016-10-30T20:02:13Z ecraven: ERROR on line 9: invalid complex infinity: #f
2016-10-30T20:02:21Z noethics: uhh
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2016-10-30T20:02:35Z noethics: i think that's an error in the compiler
2016-10-30T20:02:39Z noethics: unless i missed something
2016-10-30T20:02:43Z noethics: what about
2016-10-30T20:02:46Z noethics: +inf.0--inf.0i
2016-10-30T20:03:27Z noethics: i'll check myself in a second
2016-10-30T20:04:13Z ecraven: noethics: same problem
2016-10-30T20:04:49Z ecraven: there, (define x +inf.0+1i) (/ x x)  ->  +nan.0++nan.0i  in chibi
2016-10-30T20:04:55Z ecraven: though that seems incorrect :-/
2016-10-30T20:07:49Z noethics: yeah wtf
2016-10-30T20:08:07Z ecraven: I'm trying to get cyclone to work with +nan.0 :-/
2016-10-30T20:08:21Z ecraven: but it seems the default icyc doesn't have +inf.0 / +nan.0 loaded
2016-10-30T20:09:52Z noethics: i want to not support complex infinities but then i'll feel bad
2016-10-30T20:09:57Z noethics: i don't think this is worth the effort
2016-10-30T20:10:03Z ecraven: why is it much effort?
2016-10-30T20:10:19Z ecraven: (sorry, that sounds wrong, meant as an honest question)
2016-10-30T20:10:19Z noethics: because it's the only two cases of numbers that start as valid identifiers
2016-10-30T20:10:26Z noethics: and only on exact match are they numbers
2016-10-30T20:10:43Z ecraven: but isn't it the same for +inf.0?
2016-10-30T20:10:49Z noethics: well, 4 cases
2016-10-30T20:11:01Z noethics: +-inf.0, +-nan.0
2016-10-30T20:11:29Z ecraven: they should have used ∞ :-/
2016-10-30T20:11:42Z noethics: also matching is annoying because of the complex situation
2016-10-30T20:11:54Z noethics: you can't just match it and check, you have to parse the whole complex
2016-10-30T20:12:00Z ecraven: yea :-/
2016-10-30T20:12:20Z ecraven: wait, +inf.0a in chibi gives "invalid infinity"
2016-10-30T20:12:34Z ecraven: couldn't that just as well be "unbound symbol"?
2016-10-30T20:12:47Z noethics: any number that starts as a number is a number
2016-10-30T20:12:59Z noethics: i am sort of wrong when i say exact match
2016-10-30T20:13:05Z noethics: it's only the case when it's correct
2016-10-30T20:13:10Z noethics: if it's incorrect then it's an error
2016-10-30T20:13:25Z ecraven: is this different from r5rs?
2016-10-30T20:13:26Z noethics: so technically +i[nf.0]? always *has* to match
2016-10-30T20:13:45Z noethics: did r5rs have exact complex numbers?
2016-10-30T20:13:50Z ecraven: yes
2016-10-30T20:13:56Z ecraven: but not infinity/nan
2016-10-30T20:13:56Z noethics: maybe it's the same then
2016-10-30T20:14:06Z noethics: i don't know
2016-10-30T20:14:11Z noethics: i didn't write a reader for r5rs before
2016-10-30T20:14:16Z ecraven: just asking because mit has -1+ as a function (but of course mit was neither complete r5rs nor is it r7rs)
2016-10-30T20:15:28Z ecraven: anyway, I'll call it a night, good luck! if you find out whether the above is an error in chibi or in fact valid, let us know :)
2016-10-30T20:15:43Z noethics: night
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2016-10-30T22:37:30Z n_blownapart: hi to those helping me earlier in the week on this, apologies. I don't understand this tower of hanoi algorithm. the print function, solve function and the recursive expressions themselves are plain misery. if anyone feels like walking me through it , thanks https://www.refheap.com/123610
2016-10-30T22:40:19Z n_blownapart: I assume that (- size 1) expresses a smaller pile of disks sitting on a particular post.
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2016-10-30T22:43:44Z n_blownapart: by the way I am adept at the physical puzzle to an 8-high stack
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2016-10-30T23:03:46Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: personally i wouldn't bother reverse engineering someone else's, especially not someone else's chosen at random
2016-10-30T23:05:11Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: hey thanks. The reality is I couldn't program this. At the very least, I mastered the 8 stack physical puzzle.  :)
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2016-10-30T23:06:26Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: I tried a few approaches to trace the output of the pasted solution; I find it quite confusing.
2016-10-30T23:06:31Z qu1j0t3: you have 3 choices, i guess. 1) avoid the problem. 2) reverse engineer a program (maybe a different one than the one you picked). 3) study a spoiler. e.g. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~cburch/survey/recurse/hanoiimpl.html
2016-10-30T23:06:40Z qu1j0t3: oh, 4) work it out yourself.
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2016-10-30T23:06:50Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: I'd put that program aside.
2016-10-30T23:07:21Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: odd. here's the thing, it is on the sussman video, but so far not part of the book.
2016-10-30T23:07:29Z qu1j0t3: does tht matter?
2016-10-30T23:07:40Z qu1j0t3: try that link i just posted. work through it very carefully.
2016-10-30T23:08:14Z n_blownapart: yeah, because I have a mind to understand all of it. if not, why bother? sort of thing. thanks I'll go over it closely qu1j0t3
2016-10-30T23:08:46Z qu1j0t3: i don't remember it coming up in the book, but it's really your choice whether you engage this problem or not. hence choices 1-4 :)
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2016-10-30T23:10:32Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: thanks. one thing, this program does not actually show where the smaller, (- n 1) piles are sitting, right? the print function is placed in such a way to just show the moves themselves. I think that is why I'm confused, in part at least.
2016-10-30T23:11:51Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: fwiw, this is one of my programs for it. http://www.telegraphics.com.au/svn/puzzles/trunk/skills/hanoi2.scm
2016-10-30T23:12:28Z MoronicAcid: n_blownapart: Yes, that was probably the most confusing lecture of SICP.
2016-10-30T23:12:42Z MoronicAcid: It's a good thing it was not a prerequisite for learning Scheme. :P
2016-10-30T23:12:47Z n_blownapart: MoronicAcid: it just trails off
2016-10-30T23:13:13Z qu1j0t3: even SICP itself isn't pedagogically perfect.
2016-10-30T23:13:22Z qu1j0t3: but nothing is. power thru.
2016-10-30T23:14:09Z lritter: SICP extends life. SICP expands consciousness. SICP is vital to space travel.
2016-10-30T23:15:45Z MoronicAcid: lritter: Explain the last proposition.
2016-10-30T23:15:56Z Pent: SICP is the answer.
2016-10-30T23:16:11Z MoronicAcid: Pent: Then what is the question?
2016-10-30T23:16:18Z qu1j0t3: MoronicAcid: "explain any of them"
2016-10-30T23:16:25Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: thanks. the thinking recursively book features pascal. I really hope I can get through that book.
2016-10-30T23:16:44Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: the language doesn't really matter.
2016-10-30T23:16:49Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: the hard part is modelling
2016-10-30T23:17:53Z n_blownapart: I could use some moronic acid right about now
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2016-10-30T23:18:42Z n_blownapart: read *good acid
2016-10-30T23:18:50Z MoronicAcid: n_blownapart: You can buy off me, I'm totally not an DEA agent.
2016-10-30T23:19:06Z qu1j0t3: only a moron w----
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2016-10-30T23:19:54Z n_blownapart: No, I don't take "elements", but sicp drives a man to drink
2016-10-30T23:20:20Z qu1j0t3: Elements of Programming Style is a classic right up there with SICP.
2016-10-30T23:20:26Z qu1j0t3: so please take Elements
2016-10-30T23:20:33Z MoronicAcid: lol
2016-10-30T23:20:35Z n_blownapart:  !!
2016-10-30T23:21:19Z n_blownapart: funny thing is the tower of hanoi is also in the Thinking Recursively book
2016-10-30T23:21:22Z qu1j0t3: yes
2016-10-30T23:21:41Z qu1j0t3: it's a good drill for recursion
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2016-10-31T12:28:34Z amz3: I have implemented side effects in my scheme web frontend mini framework similar to how it's handled in elm
2016-10-31T12:28:36Z amz3: https://github.com/amirouche/scheme-todomvc/commit/1eb9fb710a33baabde0c2cd0f30b947b912a2591
2016-10-31T12:28:36Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/JRTjlSG6iv
2016-10-31T12:28:47Z amz3: (sorry there are some cosmectic change in the commit)
2016-10-31T12:28:57Z amz3: (the README was not updated yet)
2016-10-31T12:29:40Z amz3: but basically, events trigger callbacks which must return two values: 1) the new state 2) the intented side-effect which is demoed with ajax right now
2016-10-31T12:30:08Z amz3: the intended side effect is described as procedure which takes a continuation
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2016-10-31T12:31:14Z amz3: Now, the main difference with elm architecture is that I don't rely on an 'action' indirection... In elm, events trigger calls to an update function which then dispatch to the correct handler
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2016-10-31T12:32:56Z amz3: this not done like so, mainly because i'm not sure how it code can scale with single update procedure. Also with the current way of doing, it's simple to separate widget into a set of procedure which is not obvious using a single update function
2016-10-31T12:33:43Z amz3: Also, regarding the demo, I've hit recursion limit several times while debugging, so prolly, biwascheme is not viable for big-ish projects
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2016-10-31T20:19:44Z MoronicAcid: pierpa: So continuing yesterdays discussion. Upon reading the Wikipedia page on fexpr, I can see why fexpr are not an efficient solution due to the fact that the compiler cannot optimize the fexpr without changing its representation.
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2016-10-31T20:23:42Z spookywasa: yup
2016-10-31T20:23:59Z spookywasa: that's why picolisp picked fexprs, because it has no compiler :D
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2016-10-31T20:34:23Z pierpa: MoronicAcid: also read the paper by Pitman!
2016-10-31T20:35:01Z MoronicAcid: pierpa: Source?
2016-10-31T20:35:24Z pierpa: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Special-Forms.html
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