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2016-07-01T08:48:20Z vktec: Does Scheme have something like CL's hash-tables?
2016-07-01T08:48:47Z soegaard: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-69/srfi-69.html
2016-07-01T08:48:53Z soegaard: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-125/srfi-125.html
2016-07-01T08:49:01Z soegaard: Check your implementation.
2016-07-01T08:50:16Z vktec: Thanks
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2016-07-01T08:57:38Z vktec: Hmmm... Chicken Scheme _says_ it supports it, but it's complaining: Error: unbound variable: make-hash-table
2016-07-01T08:58:10Z wasamasa: you need to (use srfi-69)
2016-07-01T08:58:41Z vktec: Ah, thanks
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2016-07-01T12:25:10Z Guest43177: hi, all. one question: has someone compiled the latest version of vicare for Mac El Capitan?  i have not been able to sadly.
2016-07-01T12:25:28Z Guest43177: google did not help me.
2016-07-01T12:26:50Z soegaard: Guest43177: Not too helpful, but see: https://github.com/marcomaggi/vicare/issues/90
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2016-07-01T12:30:29Z mejja: Guest43177:  Even less helpful, but forget vicare and go download the real thing: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme
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2016-07-01T13:23:21Z Guest43177: another question is if there is something like clojure's (->) and (->>) for a scheme. i am a scheme "baby" so i am not chilled with macros yet :)
2016-07-01T13:24:36Z gwatt: Guest43177: what do -> and ->> do in clojure?
2016-07-01T13:25:22Z Guest43177: they are something sequental like a pipe in unix
2016-07-01T13:25:42Z Guest43177: function 1 gets its result in function 2 gets it's results in function 3
2016-07-01T13:25:46Z gwatt: compose?
2016-07-01T13:25:55Z ijp: essentially piping
2016-07-01T13:25:57Z Guest43177: you don't have to code from inner to outer functions
2016-07-01T13:26:09Z Guest43177: makes reading better
2016-07-01T13:26:23Z wasamasa: assuming you're using APIs specially designed for these :D
2016-07-01T13:26:33Z wasamasa: in elisp these macros are basically useless
2016-07-01T13:26:53Z ijp: https://github.com/ijp/ijputils/blob/78dc951b3618f07d1f4484445f98144128afaf22/clojure.sls
2016-07-01T13:26:53Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/28fA8LCbMD
2016-07-01T13:27:51Z soegaard: FWIW threading macros in Racket. https://github.com/lexi-lambda/threading/blob/master/main.rkt
2016-07-01T13:28:06Z ijp: I basically never use them
2016-07-01T13:28:29Z soegaard: Guest43177: Is this close enough?  http://stackoverflow.com/questions/27512433/how-can-this-racket-code-for-an-anaphoric-or-macro-be-improved
2016-07-01T13:28:30Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/vdFQhdgEkF
2016-07-01T13:29:01Z soegaard: Or this?  https://gist.github.com/kwrooijen/7e8c4720046a8eb18f6c
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2016-07-01T13:33:00Z Guest43177: thanks a lot, i will look into it
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2016-07-01T19:46:26Z n_blownapart: hi 2 general questions about tree diagrams: if you have 2 stanzas in a recursion, is it standard to write the first stanza to the right, and the second to the left as branches of the tree? as in : http://www.billthelizard.com/2009/12/sicp-exercise-114-counting-change.html
2016-07-01T19:46:27Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/lF9qW4lOmW
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2016-07-01T19:47:17Z n_blownapart: no, I meant the opposite : first to the left..
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2016-07-01T19:58:15Z wasamasa: why are you reading other people's SICP solutions?
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2016-07-01T20:03:45Z n_blownapart: wasamasa: I can't do the solutions myself. even with the solutions I have trouble. however I am getting the hang of diagramming the solutions. without diagramming the solutions I don't feel I understand the subtleties.
2016-07-01T20:04:30Z n_blownapart: I just stare at the code.
2016-07-01T20:05:00Z wasamasa: that will teach you next to nothing
2016-07-01T20:06:08Z n_blownapart: why not ? with the diagram, I can get a sense of the interpreter and deferred calls etc. I feel I'm learning a lot from it.
2016-07-01T20:06:14Z n_blownapart: wasamasa:
2016-07-01T20:07:05Z soegaard: n_blownapart: I agree with you. Looking at other peoples code is better than getting stuck.
2016-07-01T20:07:30Z soegaard: Consider the following day to solve the exercise again - this time without looking.
2016-07-01T20:08:50Z n_blownapart: for example, I diagrammed a linear vs. tail recursion. once I have a visual prompt I can see the logic of the program. yeah I try that soegaard I try to memorize .
2016-07-01T20:09:47Z n_blownapart: I realize just copying solutions is not ideal, but in the mean time the book is giving me a lot of enjoyment.
2016-07-01T20:10:50Z n_blownapart: so for my second question, is there is way to diagram a tree diagram more in coding format ? soegaard wasamasa
2016-07-01T20:11:06Z n_blownapart: ie line by line
2016-07-01T20:11:58Z ijp: effectively that's what I was doing when I did substitutions
2016-07-01T20:12:40Z wasamasa: n_blownapart: not really
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2016-07-01T20:12:50Z wasamasa: n_blownapart: I find textual representations of trees more messy
2016-07-01T20:12:59Z n_blownapart: ijp yes that was a huge breakthrough with your help. but what about doing similar with a tree diagram? I haven't seen one yet.
2016-07-01T20:13:03Z wasamasa: besides, I'd have expected the diagram to go from left to right...
2016-07-01T20:13:43Z n_blownapart: wasamasa: I corrected that above yeah I meant the first stanza to the left...
2016-07-01T20:14:00Z ijp: code is a tree
2016-07-01T20:14:26Z n_blownapart: but it doesn't grow it my yard, yet ijp
2016-07-01T20:15:09Z n_blownapart: but what does it *look like* , say in an editor?
2016-07-01T20:15:29Z soegaard: (list element left right) is a typical way of encoding trees
2016-07-01T20:15:42Z soegaard: (list 1 (list 2 3 4) (list 5 6 7))
2016-07-01T20:15:50Z soegaard: 1 is the root of the tree
2016-07-01T20:15:56Z ijp: some people stick the element in the middle, few at the end
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2016-07-01T20:19:26Z n_blownapart: hold on please
2016-07-01T20:20:10Z n_blownapart: more messy wasamasa ? well-taken, hold on please.
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2016-07-01T20:25:00Z n_blownapart: so the part of diagram where we have  (cc 11 2) <-<- (cc 11 3) ->-> (cc 1 3) -> (cc -9 3)  ...
2016-07-01T20:26:34Z n_blownapart: why is (cc 1 3) written like that ? -> (cc -9 2) would be subtracting *2* dimes, not one, correct?
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2016-07-01T20:31:25Z n_blownapart: sorry its hard to represent. I gotta go. please have patience in future. thanks a lot ijp wasamasa soegaard !
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2016-07-01T23:05:56Z n_blownapart: thanks for the help earlier wasamasa soegaard . At least I understand the change-coins recursion itself. I can diagram it well enough based on ijp  's earlier help. really appreciate it.
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2016-07-02T01:58:58Z alive876: hi newb here, i have a simple tail recursion code (fact-tail (- x 1) (* x accum))))  wondering how accum, the second variable, which incrementally stores the result  knows to be the accumulator?  http://pastebin.com/xUsGFvA8
2016-07-02T02:00:49Z Menche: knows to be the accumulator?
2016-07-02T02:01:58Z Menche: each call of the function receives a larger value for that argument
2016-07-02T02:02:07Z Menche: until it finally returns that
2016-07-02T02:02:54Z alive876: but each time the result is stored there?
2016-07-02T02:03:16Z Menche: yeah?
2016-07-02T02:04:04Z Menche: wouldn't say it "stores" it, it just passes it to the next call of the function
2016-07-02T02:04:06Z alive876: there rhere islike and implied = bind here? sorry
2016-07-02T02:04:10Z Menche: until the last call of the function returns it
2016-07-02T02:04:21Z Menche: ?
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2016-07-02T02:06:22Z alive876: ok,  i see it thanks, just
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2016-07-02T03:47:36Z Hijiri: It looks like according to 5.3.1 of the R7RS report, variable definitions can shadow syntax definitions at the top level. Is this correct?
2016-07-02T03:47:44Z Hijiri: section 5.3.1 *
2016-07-02T03:50:52Z pierpa: yes, of course. It has been true in any version of scheme
2016-07-02T03:52:06Z Hijiri: ok, thanks
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2016-07-02T20:22:56Z vktec: How can I pause execution (called `sleep` in many languages) for a certain amount of time?
2016-07-02T20:24:45Z ijp: implementation dependent, but usually also called sleep
2016-07-02T20:25:31Z vktec: Okay, thanks
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2016-07-02T20:26:07Z vktec: Hmm.. apparently not in chicken scheme
2016-07-02T20:26:17Z wasamasa: you can use thread-sleep! from srfi-18
2016-07-02T20:26:49Z vktec: wasamasa: Perfect, thanks
2016-07-02T20:27:11Z wasamasa: also, ask on #chicken :>
2016-07-02T20:27:23Z wasamasa: their channel is usually more active than this one
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2016-07-02T20:42:08Z vktec: Okay, thanks
2016-07-02T20:42:36Z vktec: Is there a Scheme book/reference that you recommend I read?
2016-07-02T20:42:55Z vktec: (as a complete newcomer to both Scheme and Lisp in general)
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2016-07-02T20:48:09Z pierpa: The Scheme Programming Language, by Dybvig, for a language manual (available on the web)
2016-07-02T20:48:31Z pierpa: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, for an introduction to programming using scheme
2016-07-02T20:48:41Z pierpa: (available in th web too)
2016-07-02T20:51:01Z vktec: pierpa: Thanks
2016-07-02T20:51:15Z pjb: vktec: a lot of references on http://schemers.org
2016-07-02T20:53:07Z vktec: pjb: I'll have a look
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2016-07-02T22:48:38Z vktec: Can anyone give me a simple explanation of exception handling in Scheme? (like try-except in Python)
2016-07-02T22:49:09Z pierpa: sure. here it is:
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2016-07-02T22:56:47Z Menche: chapter 6.11 of the R7RS spec
2016-07-02T22:56:56Z Menche hasn't used exceptions so cannot give any further info
2016-07-02T22:57:06Z Menche doesn't know if previous specs have them
2016-07-02T22:57:33Z ijp: r6rs does, but basically vktec is going to need to be more specific
2016-07-02T22:58:31Z vktec: Well, if an error occurs, I would like to be able to finish certain things before exiting
2016-07-02T22:59:14Z ijp: I mean, which implementation are you using
2016-07-02T22:59:29Z vktec: I'm writing a program that uses ncurses, so I need to reset all the settings that are changed in that before displaying the error, otherwise it mucks up the whole terminal
2016-07-02T22:59:37Z ijp: it's a good idea to mention this every time you ask for help in scheme
2016-07-02T22:59:40Z vktec: ijp: Chicken Scheme
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2016-07-02T22:59:55Z vktec: I've asked in #chicken, but haven't got a response yet
2016-07-02T23:00:53Z Menche: hmm, that's r5rs by default right?
2016-07-02T23:01:02Z Menche: unless you install and run the r7rs egg
2016-07-02T23:01:53Z vktec: Yeah, I think so
2016-07-02T23:04:56Z Menche: could maybe do error handling with call/cc?
2016-07-02T23:08:25Z vktec: Could you give me a link to some documentation on that?
2016-07-02T23:12:35Z Menche: something on the chicken wiki, seems to be an html-ified version of the R5RS standard http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/The%20R5RS%20standard#control-features
2016-07-02T23:12:43Z Menche: scroll down a bit
2016-07-02T23:12:57Z vktec: Thanks
2016-07-02T23:15:04Z Menche: also this http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/Exceptions
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2016-07-03T04:08:07Z autogen: Hello world
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2016-07-03T12:06:22Z metaqix: Is there a good doc where I could get an overview of the tradeoffs between various module systems?
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2016-07-04T09:00:20Z groovy2shoes: wingo, you around?
2016-07-04T09:10:56Z wingo: groovy2shoes: greets :)
2016-07-04T09:11:44Z groovy2shoes: wingo, I was proselytizing your blog earlier on HN, and I went to the "About" page for the first time (I think), and saw that you're from Charlotte...  that's where I live!  lol
2016-07-04T09:11:59Z wingo: nice :)
2016-07-04T09:12:07Z groovy2shoes: I also attended NCSU, but for computation science rather than nuclear engineering
2016-07-04T09:12:24Z wingo: cool :)
2016-07-04T09:12:38Z groovy2shoes: (and had some similar gripes about the nature of the education from the CoE, though I've simmered down about it considerably over the last few years)
2016-07-04T09:12:47Z wingo: studying cs in university sounds like fun in many ways :)
2016-07-04T09:12:57Z wingo: heh yeah
2016-07-04T09:13:21Z groovy2shoes: well, I managed to place out of most of the programming classes (except assembly, which I decided to take just because the instructor is phenomenal)
2016-07-04T09:13:32Z groovy2shoes: so that took some of the fun away, I think
2016-07-04T09:14:04Z groovy2shoes: in retrospect, I would've had a much better GPA if I'd just dealt with the boredom of Java and C classes lol, but whatever...  I got to take some interesting classes in their stead
2016-07-04T09:15:43Z groovy2shoes: but yeah, I definitely felt like there was way too much emphasis on industry in the curriculum... in retrospect, it was actually pretty balanced in the CS department, but I still think it's too much, and when I was considering grad school I felt underprepared for theoretical CS  :/  no matter, I've managed to learn a lot of that stuff on my own since then
2016-07-04T09:17:01Z groovy2shoes: I miss Raleigh, though (actually there at the moment visiting a friend)...  my wife got a good job in Charlotte so I relocated, but really I just like the Triangle better
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2016-07-04T18:09:53Z Hijiri: What is a typical way of implementing dynamic-wind? I was thinking of maintaining a heap-based stack with registers pointing to the most recent before/after and which gets saved in the continuation.
2016-07-04T18:10:44Z Hijiri: Then you need to walk the befores and afters backward until you find the first differing ones
2016-07-04T18:10:48Z Hijiri: when you restore
2016-07-04T18:11:14Z Hijiri: I mean, walk the befores and afters of both the current register and the one in the continuation I'm restoring
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2016-07-04T18:29:06Z Hijiri: Chibi-Scheme cites the Scheme48 reference manual, so I'll look there.
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2016-07-04T18:42:36Z groovy2shoes: Hijiri, https://github.com/baguette/tiny7/blob/master/init.scm#L369
2016-07-04T18:47:19Z groovy2shoes: that's probably not ideal, but it seems to work
2016-07-04T18:49:06Z Hijiri: thanks
2016-07-04T18:49:14Z Hijiri: I wasn't able to find the reference manual I was looking for
2016-07-04T18:49:25Z Hijiri: chibi scheme says an implementation is in the appendix, but none of the ones I found had appendices
2016-07-04T18:50:11Z groovy2shoes: the "trick" for that implementation is just the realization that the only way to re-enter a dynamic extent is via call/cc, so it redefines call/cc to call the appropriate thunks when entering/exiting a continuation
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2016-07-04T20:17:15Z groovy2shoes: Hijiri, I found the Scheme 48 thing...  looks like it was removed from the source tree in 1.9 (still present in the 1.8 sources at ./doc/src/meeting.tex and ./doc/meeting.ps), but it hasn't actually been built as *part* of the manual since ancient 0.5x days
2016-07-04T20:17:37Z groovy2shoes: http://www.s48.org/cgi-bin/hgwebdir.cgi/s48-stable/file/092321dae5e5/doc/src/meeting.tex
2016-07-04T20:17:37Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/P79SBK09w8
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2016-07-04T20:17:50Z groovy2shoes: http://www.s48.org/cgi-bin/hgwebdir.cgi/s48-stable/file/092321dae5e5/doc/meeting.ps
2016-07-04T20:17:50Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/EIF5Y7bvHF
2016-07-04T20:21:04Z groovy2shoes: looks like it follows a similar implementation strategy to the TinySCHEME one I linked earlier
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2016-07-05T02:45:39Z Hijiri: I think I only realized this now, but does implementing syntactic closures (or syntax-rules) require renaming all bindings everywhere
2016-07-05T02:45:44Z Hijiri: Or is there a way to avoid doing this
2016-07-05T02:46:02Z Hijiri: (Not counting renaming them interleaved with execution)
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2016-07-05T02:48:55Z Hijiri: I guess it's not necessary to rename bindings that are free initially
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2016-07-05T07:13:22Z Hijiri: In syntactic closure macro systems, what do you do when a form passed to an expander contains syntactic closures? Do I just perform all rewrites in the syntactic closures before passing the expression to the macro?
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2016-07-05T07:14:32Z Hijiri: Hmm, I guess I'm supposed to do the rewrites before evaluating the expanded form anyway
2016-07-05T07:14:37Z Hijiri: so nevermind, I think that answers that
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2016-07-05T07:17:08Z Hijiri: Is there a clever way to not require unique symbol generators when implementing syntactic closures?
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2016-07-05T07:18:07Z groovy2shoes: Hijiri, resolve identifiers to bindings rather than to symbols, that's how I do it
2016-07-05T07:19:56Z groovy2shoes: it involves adding a new data type to your evaluator, but I basically store the entry from the environment rather than a symbol (and rather than creating a new binding for that symbol)
2016-07-05T07:21:06Z Hijiri: How is the binding represented? Binding means to me "the arrow from a variable to its pointer in some environment"
2016-07-05T07:21:14Z Hijiri: Also thanks for the scheme48 reference earlier
2016-07-05T07:21:56Z groovy2shoes: np :)
2016-07-05T07:22:10Z groovy2shoes: so, imagine your environment is represented as a stack of alists
2016-07-05T07:22:18Z Hijiri: Alright
2016-07-05T07:24:19Z groovy2shoes: you have something like (((foo . 42) (bar . 29) (baz . "hello")) ((display . #<procedure 0xDEADBEEF>) (quux . #<procedure 0xBEDEAD42) ...)))
2016-07-05T07:24:58Z groovy2shoes: each binding itself is one of the innermost pairs of the environment, so, e.g., (baz . "hello") is a binding
2016-07-05T07:25:20Z Hijiri: Ok, I see
2016-07-05T07:25:33Z Hijiri: So I should store the pair of symbol name and value (location)?
2016-07-05T07:25:44Z groovy2shoes: my evaluation rule for bindings essentially boils down to:  (cond ((binding? x) => cdr))
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2016-07-05T07:26:10Z groovy2shoes: since the binding is actually a reference into the environment, you "get" the environment for free
2016-07-05T07:26:20Z groovy2shoes: (the relevant part of it, anyway)
2016-07-05T07:27:11Z Hijiri: This seems like it also fixes some issues with deep binding, since you can get to the value directly
2016-07-05T07:27:17Z groovy2shoes: at expansion time, I look up each symbol in the environment and replace it with its lexical binding if it's to be hygienic, and leave it a symbol if not
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2016-07-05T07:27:58Z Hijiri: But maybe only in the case of macro expansion since it isn't applied globally
2016-07-05T07:28:15Z Hijiri: or is it, I don't know
2016-07-05T07:28:16Z groovy2shoes: yeah, exactly
2016-07-05T07:28:21Z Hijiri: ok
2016-07-05T07:29:03Z groovy2shoes: in the case of syntactic closures, it's make-syntactic-closure that actually does the substitution
2016-07-05T07:29:19Z groovy2shoes: for er-macro-transformer, it would be the rename procedure that does it
2016-07-05T07:29:47Z groovy2shoes: of course, you're looking it up in the transformer environment, though, not the expansion environment
2016-07-05T07:30:18Z Hijiri: So would make-syntactic-closure, instead of actually constructing a closure, just replace its symbols with binding references?
2016-07-05T07:30:34Z groovy2shoes: that's what mine does
2016-07-05T07:30:50Z groovy2shoes: it avoids the need to have a separate evaluation rule in the evaluator, but that's a possibility as well
2016-07-05T07:33:37Z groovy2shoes: imo, the reason renaming is often used is because there's a tendency to think of macro expansion as a preprocessing step... but if you're not implementing it as a preprocessor, it's simpler (imo) to just use bindings like that
2016-07-05T07:34:21Z Hijiri: Yeah, that makes sense.
2016-07-05T07:35:11Z Hijiri: My goal is to have a much stuff happen interleaved with execution as reasonable, since I need to estimate the cost of steps (and the steps shouldn't be too big)
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2016-07-05T07:55:25Z groovy2shoes: Hijiri, just a heads up:  that trick only works "as-is" for variable references... you'll have to be more careful when it comes to variable introduction/definition
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2016-07-05T08:30:27Z Hijiri: Is that because bindings could appear in the variable name part of a define form / lambda formal / let name etc.?
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2016-07-05T08:32:50Z groovy2shoes: yes
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2016-07-05T19:34:19Z ecraven: reading books about CL, I sometimes wish there were a Common Scheme, all the things in CL, but cleaned up, using a Lisp-1 and a proper module system
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2016-07-05T19:43:24Z pjb: ecraven: that's what r7rs will be.
2016-07-05T19:44:21Z ecraven: pjb: hehe, doesn't quite look that way... at the moment, r7rs-large seems to be a lot of picking unrelated stuff and just saying "this is now a standard" (which might be exactly what CL is, don't know enough about its history)
2016-07-05T19:46:27Z pjb: Yes, CL was made a little like this, since it had to be upward compatible with several vendors. That's why there's some redundancy (eg. (setf car) and rplaca), and some underspecified features.
2016-07-05T19:46:35Z pjb: (plus lack of time to finish it).
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2016-07-05T20:04:12Z ijp: ecraven: we all wish it, nobody wants to work for it
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2016-07-05T20:11:41Z ecraven: at least the splitting of r7rs into -small and -large seems like a good idea.. like eulisp language levels
2016-07-05T20:12:10Z wasamasa: now the question is when they'll be done with r7rs-large
2016-07-05T20:13:14Z Riastradh: Around the time of the Singularity, I assume.
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2016-07-05T20:13:54Z ecraven: wasamasa: things are progressing, first docket is being voted on, right?
2016-07-05T20:14:02Z wasamasa: ecraven: yes
2016-07-05T20:14:09Z wasamasa: but then there's six more...
2016-07-05T20:14:22Z wasamasa: so, how long did it take from its inception to voting?
2016-07-05T20:14:24Z wasamasa: two years?
2016-07-05T20:14:36Z ijp: the first r7rs rumblings were like 5 years ago
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2016-07-05T20:14:51Z ijp: speaking off, isn't it about time to declare it a failure and move on to r8rs
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2016-07-05T20:20:50Z wasamasa: you defeatist
2016-07-05T20:22:26Z ijp: just applying the same standard as the last time
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2016-07-06T00:03:21Z drduck: do you guys do test-first design most of the time?
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2016-07-06T03:03:01Z n_blownapart: hello, there are steps at the bottom of the paste to find (prove?) how the order of growth for this (sine angle) function is calculated. I need help going through the steps without using the 'a' variable if possible.  https://www.refheap.com/121148
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2016-07-06T03:06:25Z n_blownapart: it is question b I'm working on... ^
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2016-07-06T03:09:34Z n_blownapart: hello, there are steps at the bottom of the following paste to find (prove?) how the order of growth for this (sine angle) function is calculated. I need help going through the steps, replacing the 'a' variable with 'angle' if possible. thanks:  https://www.refheap.com/121148
2016-07-06T03:09:59Z n_blownapart: oops sorry ^^ I didn't mean to post that ^^
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2016-07-06T03:32:01Z solrize: man i'm looking at this weird old code that i wrote but i have zero recollection of ever writing
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2016-07-06T03:54:59Z adu: hi solrize
2016-07-06T03:55:02Z adu: hi n_blownapart
2016-07-06T04:08:45Z n_blownapart: adu hi
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2016-07-06T08:50:13Z ecraven: solrize: hehe, happened to me once, I wanted to write a patch, only to find out I had written that exact same patch years ago...
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2016-07-06T17:00:55Z wasamasa: wait, kawa has elisp support?
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2016-07-06T17:03:49Z BW^-: there is some kind of logical system called a... "dependency matching engine"??
2016-07-06T17:04:07Z BW^-: "resource dependency sth."??
2016-07-06T17:04:39Z BW^-: the idea is a system that will figure all resources that would be required to be provided to fullfill a particular task,a lso given what resources I already provided
2016-07-06T17:04:42Z BW^-: what is that called?
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2016-07-06T17:05:21Z BW^-: ahh, "resource matching" maybe
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2016-07-06T17:26:26Z BW^-: http://research.cs.wisc.edu/htcondor/doc/rajesh.dissert.pdf like this
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2016-07-06T17:36:47Z wasamasa: philosophy and CS?
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2016-07-07T02:35:26Z BW^-: wasamasa: ?
2016-07-07T02:36:35Z BW^-: I have a fairly complex resource optimization problem, about how to route streams - say of water - the most efficient way
2016-07-07T02:36:43Z BW^-: so I want to give the user the option of speed vs. efficiency options
2016-07-07T02:37:02Z BW^-: and, the routing could crash halfway, meaning i'd need to ask the user when the flowing already has been going for a while
2016-07-07T02:37:30Z BW^-: finally, *separate* pieces of software may be handling different parts of the streaming/routing operation so there is a timing issue also
2016-07-07T02:37:34Z BW^-: any thoughts on how to implement this?
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2016-07-07T02:38:34Z rszeno get info about partial result of processing and provide them to user. Let him choose!
2016-07-07T02:39:08Z Riastradh: BW^-: Just subcontract it out to the city of Detroit and you'll be all set!
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2016-07-07T02:52:46Z rszeno what if you are in europe? after all dns, ip, cloud ... shit, maybe you can't contact Detroit. It look better
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2016-07-07T04:01:26Z BW^-: Riastradh: haha
2016-07-07T04:01:43Z BW^-: Riastradh: PM
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2016-07-07T06:14:24Z wasamasa: BW^-: reads like an impractical combination from the paper's author to me, philosophy and CS
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2016-07-07T18:24:31Z ecraven: jcowan: hey :) just a thing I was pondering regarding ArraysCowan, maybe it might be interesting to somehow specify row- or column-majority, for interaction with external code via an FFI.. maybe that belongs in the storage class, maybe it is out of scope anyway, but it might be good to at least think about this
2016-07-07T18:24:42Z ecraven: mainly because FORTRAN differs from C :-/
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2016-07-07T18:26:19Z jcowan: I thought about that, but it's practically free to transpose arrays anyway
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2016-07-07T18:33:18Z ecraven: hm.. never thought about it that way :)
2016-07-07T18:39:58Z jcowan: Neither does anyone else, which makes me wonder if it's not a brain fart on my part.
2016-07-07T18:46:37Z ecraven: will it work for rank > 2?
2016-07-07T18:47:26Z ecraven: is anyone here perchance a horologist who knows where to find information on equation clocks? either variable pendulum or the mechanical addition type :-/
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2016-07-07T18:53:40Z jcowan: ecraven: I think so, it's general purpose.  In any case you can use rearrange-axes (aka dyadic transpose) to get an arbitrary rearrangement.
2016-07-07T18:54:38Z ecraven: jcowan: yes, but that is non-trivial, in a way, if you want a non-copying interface to LAPACK :-/
2016-07-07T18:55:10Z jcowan: I don't see why.  Rearrange-axes doesn't copy anything, it just mucks with the stride.
2016-07-07T18:55:22Z jcowan: (it is an "operation" in the sense of the pre-SRFI)
2016-07-07T18:55:35Z ecraven: thanks, I'll need to think about this :)
2016-07-07T18:55:49Z ecraven: I've started implementing a few of the procedures, to see how that goes, but haven't gotten that far
2016-07-07T18:56:10Z jcowan: Stride thinking isn't easy.  It took me a while to realize that taking the diagonal of a square matrix is doable with stride alone
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2016-07-07T19:55:44Z jcowan: oooh, SRFI 139 is great, I wasn't expecting it.
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2016-07-07T21:16:20Z benaiah: why does (alist-ref 'key alist) wrap the return in a list? is it because alist keys can be bound to multiple values (say, '((key val1 val2 val3))?
2016-07-07T21:18:21Z C-Keen: benaiah: because an alist is a list of dotted pairs and you will get the cdr of that (key . val) pair
2016-07-07T21:19:04Z C-Keen: so if you have '((foo . 4)) you will get 4, if you have '((foo 4)) it's (4)
2016-07-07T21:20:35Z benaiah: ah, I see. that makes sense
2016-07-07T21:20:52Z benaiah: ty
2016-07-07T21:20:57Z C-Keen: my pleasure
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2016-07-07T21:59:02Z wasamasa: this allows discerning whether an alist has something by that key
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2016-07-07T22:04:14Z wasamasa: or wait, that was assoc
2016-07-07T22:04:18Z wasamasa: silly me
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2016-07-08T04:10:39Z n_blownapart: please critique the output by hand: is it properly written?. I used racket/trace with an alias to better to track the output. thanks https://www.refheap.com/121268
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2016-07-09T18:37:41Z teurastaja: '()
2016-07-09T18:39:30Z teurastaja: (define (compose g f) (lambda (x) (g (f x)))) (map (compose start conversation) people)
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2016-07-09T18:41:08Z Opodeldoc: teurastaja, mentioning common lisp usually gets things going.
2016-07-09T18:42:11Z teurastaja: common lisp is like scheme: unknown
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2016-07-09T22:53:47Z mejja: rudybot: Hail to the king, hail to the one / Kneel to the crown, stand in the sun / Hail to the king
2016-07-09T22:53:50Z rudybot: mejja: The introductory book should be called "Kneel Before Zod".
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2016-07-10T08:00:16Z abbe: hi
2016-07-10T08:00:33Z lambda-smith: hello
2016-07-10T08:00:35Z abbe: How to perform bitwise operations in Scheme ?
2016-07-10T08:00:39Z abbe: any hints
2016-07-10T08:00:57Z abbe: i am looking at r7rs specification and unable to spot any such function
2016-07-10T08:00:57Z lambda-smith: which scheme implementation are you using?
2016-07-10T08:01:03Z abbe: sagittarius-scheme
2016-07-10T08:01:51Z abbe: are there no such standard function(s) for this ?
2016-07-10T08:02:30Z lambda-smith: Consults this link: http://ktakashi.github.io/sagittarius-ref.html#index-b
2016-07-10T08:02:43Z abbe: oh
2016-07-10T08:02:44Z abbe: bitwise-*
2016-07-10T08:02:48Z abbe: thanks! :)
2016-07-10T08:02:49Z lambda-smith: Plenty of bitwise operations
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2016-07-10T08:02:52Z lambda-smith: np ;)
2016-07-10T08:03:03Z Guest_84757: Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:03:11Z Guest_84757: sun is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:03:20Z abbe: its all part of scheme
2016-07-10T08:03:23Z lambda-smith: yep
2016-07-10T08:03:46Z Guest_84757: moon is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:04:06Z wasamasa: Guest_84757: fuck off
2016-07-10T08:04:10Z Guest_84757: stars are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:04:21Z wasamasa has seen that before on #emacs
2016-07-10T08:04:31Z Guest_84757: planets are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:04:45Z Guest_84757: galaxies are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:05:27Z Guest_84757: oceans are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:05:31Z wasamasa: foof: ping
2016-07-10T08:05:36Z Guest_84757: mountains are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:05:45Z Guest_84757: trees are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:05:56Z Guest_84757: mom is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:06:10Z Guest_84757: dad is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:06:21Z abbe: hehe
2016-07-10T08:06:21Z Guest_84757: boss is not doing Allah is doing
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2016-07-10T08:06:33Z Guest_84757: job is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:06:40Z Guest_84757: dollar is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:06:49Z Guest_84757: degree is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:06:59Z Guest_84757: medicine is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:07:17Z Guest_84757: customers are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:07:48Z edgar-rft: Guest_84757: If nobody kicks you Allah will do it
2016-07-10T08:08:06Z Guest_84757: you can not get a job without the permission of allah
2016-07-10T08:08:26Z Guest_84757: you can not get married without the permission of Allah
2016-07-10T08:08:55Z Guest_84757: nobody can get angry at you without the permission of allah
2016-07-10T08:09:04Z Guest_84757: light is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:09:13Z Guest_84757: fan is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:09:26Z Guest_84757: businessess are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:09:34Z Guest_84757: america is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:09:51Z Guest_84757: fire can not burn without the permission of Allah
2016-07-10T08:10:09Z Guest_84757: knife can not cut without the permission of allah
2016-07-10T08:10:26Z Guest_84757: rulers are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:10:48Z Guest_84757: governments are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:11:01Z Guest_84757: sleep is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:11:15Z Guest_84757: hunger is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:11:23Z alezost: Allah is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:12:15Z Guest_84757: food does not take away the hunger Allah takes away the hunger
2016-07-10T08:12:57Z edgar-rft: looks more as if Allah takes away brain
2016-07-10T08:13:28Z Guest_84757: water does not take away the thirst Allah takes away the thirst
2016-07-10T08:13:28Z alezost: hey, I have changed the pattern!
2016-07-10T08:13:39Z Guest_84757: seeing is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:13:49Z Guest_84757: hearing is not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:13:56Z alezost: oh, back again :-(
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2016-07-10T08:14:37Z Guest_84757: seasons are not doing Allah is doing
2016-07-10T08:14:39Z ChanServ has set mode +o mst
2016-07-10T08:14:42Z Guest_84757 [~matthewt@freenode/staff/shadowcat.perl-gc] has been kicked from #scheme by mst (shoo)
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2016-07-10T08:15:12Z mst: Guest_84757: no, really, shoo.
2016-07-10T08:15:13Z Guest_84757: weather is not doing Allah is doing
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2016-07-10T08:18:44Z edgar-rft: nobody is allowed to spam channels without the permission of Allah
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2016-07-10T08:40:42Z madmuppet006: Im watching the berkley lectures on sicp on youtube and the lecturer says that you need to write some elements of a scheme compiler in a low level language like c .. is this still neseccary or can you write a full compiler using scheme?
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2016-07-10T08:51:25Z ggole: madmuppet006: writing a GC in scheme (+ some low level primitives) is possible, but not easy
2016-07-10T08:51:53Z edgar-rft: madmuppet006: Of course you can write a full compiler in Scheme, but the practical problem is that nearly all operating systems today are written in C, and if something changes in the OS, then the C libraries delivered with the new OS version already are adapted to the changes. In a full Scheme compiler it's *you* who needs to update the compiler to all changes in the OS.
2016-07-10T08:51:56Z ggole: Google for prescheme to see one possible approach
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2016-07-10T09:10:19Z madmuppet006: ggole: thanks
2016-07-10T09:20:32Z madmuppet006: edgar-rf: thanks for the info
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2016-07-10T14:17:12Z wasamasa: foof: you're a bit late, allah has been kicked already
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2016-07-10T16:47:43Z zacts: hello schemers
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2016-07-10T17:43:34Z groovy2shoes: hello zacts
2016-07-10T17:43:42Z zacts: hi groovy2shoes cool nick
2016-07-10T17:43:50Z zacts: I have some groovy shoes I just got actually
2016-07-10T17:43:53Z zacts: let me link a photo
2016-07-10T17:44:14Z groovy2shoes: heheh thanks
2016-07-10T17:44:27Z zacts: groovy2shoes: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s591/sh/1a58ebd5-15bf-4856-9918-b8e0698bdf58/29fef1573198b61ea2520032c2b78ee8
2016-07-10T17:44:28Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/D2dTixUlUr
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2016-07-10T17:44:48Z zacts: It's the Beatles Yellow Submarine Fish shoes
2016-07-10T17:44:52Z groovy2shoes: nice!
2016-07-10T17:44:56Z zacts: :-D
2016-07-10T17:45:06Z groovy2shoes: I always felt kinda bad for the blue meanie
2016-07-10T17:45:11Z zacts: heh yeah
2016-07-10T17:47:32Z groovy2shoes: zacts, do you like my tattoo?  http://tinyurl.com/j8rfewq
2016-07-10T17:49:59Z zacts: heh, that rocks!
2016-07-10T17:50:05Z groovy2shoes: thanks :)
2016-07-10T17:50:07Z zacts: I've considered a lambda on my heel
2016-07-10T17:50:15Z groovy2shoes: why heel?
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2016-07-10T17:50:32Z zacts: well for one it's probably not as sensitive painwise as the neck
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2016-07-10T17:50:44Z zacts: and also, I don't know
2016-07-10T17:50:45Z groovy2shoes: you know what?  it really didn't hurt at all
2016-07-10T17:50:55Z zacts: I just kind of like the idea of tiny heel tatoos
2016-07-10T17:50:59Z zacts: ah yeah? that's cool
2016-07-10T17:51:01Z zacts: :-)
2016-07-10T17:51:11Z zacts: ok, brb. I have to do some homework for my summer class
2016-07-10T17:51:11Z groovy2shoes: it didn't feel *good*...  I've described it as feeling like someone scratching me with the tip of a pencil
2016-07-10T17:51:17Z zacts: I'm taking a music history class
2016-07-10T17:51:24Z groovy2shoes: nice!  cya later :)
2016-07-10T17:51:34Z zacts: but lambda is tiny though, so probably not too bad eh? :-)
2016-07-10T17:51:39Z zacts: ok, brb soon
2016-07-10T17:51:47Z groovy2shoes: nah, only took like 10 minutes tops
2016-07-10T17:52:31Z zacts: now if you got Gerald J. Sussman to actually _do_ the tatoo, and got a video clip of it, that would have rocked.
2016-07-10T17:52:38Z groovy2shoes: lol
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2016-07-10T19:50:20Z n_blownapart: hello please scrutinize my output.. would you write it any differently? thanks https://www.refheap.com/121360
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2016-07-10T20:17:03Z pierpa: square is predefined in racket
2016-07-10T20:18:19Z n_blownapart: thanks pierpa aside from that does the output reflect the interpreter pretty well?
2016-07-10T20:18:24Z pierpa: looks correct
2016-07-10T20:19:01Z n_blownapart: yay. man I am finally getting scheme by forcing myself to write out output religiously . thanks !
2016-07-10T20:19:19Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-07-10T20:19:33Z n_blownapart: comments ?
2016-07-10T20:20:05Z pierpa: actually its sqr in racket
2016-07-10T20:20:37Z n_blownapart: cool. this is sicp so I just do what the romans do.
2016-07-10T20:21:04Z n_blownapart: still in chapter 1 .
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2016-07-10T20:22:19Z n_blownapart: hand-writing the output is not explicitly taught in sicp. I had to grovel for help in the chatrooms.
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2016-07-10T20:22:46Z n_blownapart: though I think they cover a little in the lectures
2016-07-10T20:24:14Z n_blownapart: just read the Matthias Felleisen critique of sicp . is Htdp a better book ?
2016-07-10T20:24:40Z n_blownapart: sicp is like pulling teeth
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2016-07-10T20:41:13Z wasamasa: uh, yeah
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2016-07-10T20:42:18Z wasamasa: no comment on that one
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2016-07-10T20:44:20Z n_blownapart: wasamasa: that's a yes?
2016-07-10T20:44:37Z wasamasa: n_blownapart: that's a "no comment"
2016-07-10T20:44:44Z ijp: I suspect most people haven't read both
2016-07-10T20:44:46Z wasamasa: ^
2016-07-10T20:44:51Z wasamasa: I've read bits of both
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2016-07-10T20:45:28Z wasamasa: used to have a lecturer who mixed both texts without any mercy
2016-07-10T20:45:54Z wasamasa: later I've grabbed a copy of htdp and was surprised to recognize parts from the lecture and much more useful parts that weren't covered
2016-07-10T20:47:35Z n_blownapart: well I did a lot of ruby examples as my first language, but I may as well say that , with sicp, scheme is my first experience programming.
2016-07-10T20:49:21Z wasamasa: from what I can tell, htdp is taking the math/list exercises of sicp and turns these into a few hundred exercises
2016-07-10T20:49:36Z wasamasa: because its final part is about accumulators
2016-07-10T20:50:23Z wasamasa: whereas sicp starts out that way, but eventually turns into lessons on abstraction and the construction of an interpreter
2016-07-10T20:50:28Z teurastaja: accumulators? you mean monoids?
2016-07-10T20:51:36Z teurastaja: the accumulator i know of is the main register in most CPUs and MCUs but it does have very different meanings
2016-07-10T20:52:30Z n_blownapart: well, I've done nearly 5 chapters of the little schemer. I can see what accumulators do from sicp / ruby a bit. I hit a wall with the little schemer and started sicp!! looking for the best approach so that I can move a bit *faster*. sicp is slow-going
2016-07-10T20:52:41Z ijp: teurastaja: since it's htdp, it probably means fold-style functions that "accumulate" an argument
2016-07-10T20:52:56Z ijp: I can't imagine htdp using the word 'monoid'
2016-07-10T20:53:51Z n_blownapart: what's my strategy ? just stick with sicp and little_schemer?
2016-07-10T20:54:44Z teurastaja: but they should. people invented a word for it :/
2016-07-10T20:55:14Z ijp: the words isn't necessarily appropriate
2016-07-10T20:56:24Z turbofail: what if it's not an associative accumulation operation?
2016-07-10T20:56:40Z teurastaja: its a made up word. like loops in math mean nothing like loops in computing
2016-07-10T20:57:18Z turbofail: but nobody uses it in computer science except when they're trying to be snobby math people
2016-07-10T20:57:52Z ijp: I suppose that rules out theoretical computer scientists then
2016-07-10T20:58:45Z turbofail: so, basically the only time it gets used at all is when it's being used correctly
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2016-07-10T21:03:00Z teurastaja: turbofail: monoid without associativity is a magma with identity
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2016-07-10T21:03:15Z ijp: whoosh
2016-07-10T21:03:35Z Riastradh: In the category of burritos, right?
2016-07-10T21:04:00Z n_blownapart: may I ask something about my initial paste: in the output on line 16 where the prog logic goes back to the (even?) condition, does the prog logic go back to line 6, or does it stay within the condition statements? I mean, if you were to want to visualize it? https://www.refheap.com/121360
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2016-07-10T21:04:07Z teurastaja: if you made a category called burritos i guess lol
2016-07-10T21:04:22Z ijp: the digestive system is a functor from burrito to bathroom
2016-07-10T21:04:36Z teurastaja: n_blownapart: havent seen that paste
2016-07-10T21:05:08Z teurastaja: ijp: more than that: its a monad
2016-07-10T21:05:21Z Riastradh: teurastaja: A joke riffing on <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3870088/a-monad-is-just-a-monoid-in-the-category-of-endofunctors-whats-the-issue> and <https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/>.
2016-07-10T21:05:22Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/n1uJg6FO5D
2016-07-10T21:05:22Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/aifsg7KaIM
2016-07-10T21:05:39Z n_blownapart: it might be a moot point, but sometimes I sit there wondering precisely where the program logic goes (next)
2016-07-10T21:05:45Z ijp: Riastradh: I have that on a t-shirt
2016-07-10T21:06:00Z ijp: so far only a topologist has commented on it
2016-07-10T21:08:20Z teurastaja: ijp: i would even say its a metamorphism
2016-07-10T21:08:36Z n_blownapart: what I'm really asking, is if the pros visualize program flow in a way that is easier than writing out the output like I did? ^
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2016-07-10T21:08:53Z wasamasa: I don't know of anyone visualizing code
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2016-07-10T21:09:15Z ijp: wasamasa: really? I presume we all do to some extent
2016-07-10T21:09:17Z teurastaja: catamorphism + anamorphism
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2016-07-10T21:09:28Z turbofail: i audialize code
2016-07-10T21:09:39Z wasamasa: ijp: architectures, data structures, organigrams, but not code, no
2016-07-10T21:09:51Z ijp: organigram?
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2016-07-10T21:10:04Z wasamasa: you know, these charts explaining some wretched company hierarchy
2016-07-10T21:10:27Z Riastradh: A visualize code as a ring of knackebrot, slowly breaking it into pieces and spreading cheese or brunost on them.
2016-07-10T21:10:40Z wasamasa: I keep it mostly in my head
2016-07-10T21:10:51Z n_blownapart: but for someone learning
2016-07-10T21:10:57Z ijp: wasamasa: I was meaning internally, not on a screen or paper
2016-07-10T21:10:59Z wasamasa: sometimes I sketch out some UI stuff on paper or a more general approach, but how code is evaluated, nope
2016-07-10T21:11:08Z wasamasa: I'm beyond that
2016-07-10T21:11:59Z wasamasa: therefore my opinion is that "the pros" don't bother
2016-07-10T21:12:21Z n_blownapart: anyone with a teacher's instinct then?
2016-07-10T21:12:38Z teurastaja: you guys think category theory is useless but compare scheme with haskell
2016-07-10T21:12:45Z turbofail: i can hear the closed-over variables screaming to be let out.  but i know the chaos they'll cause if i give in, so i must remain strong
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2016-07-10T21:13:28Z teurastaja: it does bring out some interesting optimizations
2016-07-10T21:13:29Z wasamasa: programming generally is mysterious because it mostly happens in your head
2016-07-10T21:14:27Z teurastaja: programming is as real as me taking a piss and smoking a cigarette
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2016-07-10T21:15:45Z teurastaja: but thats philosophy
2016-07-10T21:17:17Z n_blownapart: teurastaja: that is a cool moniker is it your name?
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2016-07-10T21:21:43Z n_blownapart: thanks later.
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2016-07-11T03:13:52Z matheusmoreira: Hello
2016-07-11T03:14:21Z matheusmoreira: Anyone with experience in writing libraries in standard R6RS or R7RS? I'm not sure how to do it portably.
2016-07-11T03:14:53Z matheusmoreira: All the various implementations load the libraries in different ways.
2016-07-11T03:20:14Z ijp: yeah, it's a mess
2016-07-11T03:21:28Z ijp: for r6rs there was a convention to factor out implementation specific versions of (foo) into foo.impl.sls where impl=ikarus,ypsilon,guile,...
2016-07-11T03:22:09Z matheusmoreira: (library (name)) in Racket means name/main.sls, probably means name.sls in other schemes.
2016-07-11T03:23:06Z matheusmoreira: Is that a convention for bundling implementation-specific behavior in an otherwise-standard Scheme library?
2016-07-11T03:23:23Z ijp: it was the convention
2016-07-11T03:23:35Z ijp: there was an attempt to redo it as an srfi but that didn't catch on
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2016-07-11T03:25:20Z matheusmoreira: Is there a practical way to do it?
2016-07-11T03:25:26Z matheusmoreira: Doesn't seem feasible to me
2016-07-11T03:25:41Z matheusmoreira: I'd have to change the structure of the source code for each implementation
2016-07-11T03:25:41Z ijp: the above works and is practical, it's just not very nice
2016-07-11T03:26:04Z ijp: the key thing is to reduce the surface area of the unportable bits
2016-07-11T03:26:26Z ijp: then I'd plonk it in (foo compat)
2016-07-11T03:26:41Z matheusmoreira: Wait I think we're not on the same page
2016-07-11T03:26:51Z ijp: you're mostly fucked anyway, nobody actually cares about portability
2016-07-11T03:27:31Z matheusmoreira: Yeah... seems like it
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2016-07-11T03:27:48Z matheusmoreira: I feel like I'm writing in C, reading all these standards and wrestling with implementation details.
2016-07-11T03:29:04Z matheusmoreira: What I mean is the R6RS standard doesn't say that library code has to be in a file. So implementations have different notions of where the files should be.
2016-07-11T03:29:23Z ijp: right
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2016-07-11T04:16:39Z groovy2shoes: *I* care about portability...
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2016-07-11T05:18:51Z asd_: does the open source Chez Scheme include the high performance compiler?
2016-07-11T05:21:42Z groovy2shoes: yes
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2016-07-11T13:15:54Z foof: wasamasa: allah is great, allah is kicked
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2016-07-11T14:06:31Z wasamasa: foof: hahaha
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2016-07-11T22:09:12Z n_blownapart: hi I think the list function acts like an accumulator here on lines 16-27. how does it add the results here? https://www.refheap.com/120101 thanks
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2016-07-11T22:11:50Z wasamasa: that's a convoluted way of implementing fib
2016-07-11T22:12:04Z n_blownapart: i.e. the first entry on line 17 is both entries on line 16 added together. then what.?
2016-07-11T22:12:40Z n_blownapart: wasamasa:  please walk me through it if you have time.
2016-07-11T22:12:47Z wasamasa: also, not exactly an implementation of it as it returns a list, not a number
2016-07-11T22:13:56Z n_blownapart: pie*rpa wrote it for illustrative purposes, now I lost track of how it works. on line 17...
2016-07-11T22:14:22Z n_blownapart: the first position is an addition of the two positions on line 16, correct?
2016-07-11T22:15:12Z wasamasa: the canonical way is (define (fib n) (cond ((= n 0) 1) ((= n 1) 1) (else (+ (fib (- n 1)) (fib (- n 2))))))
2016-07-11T22:15:41Z wasamasa: the reasoning behind it is that a fibonacci number is always a sum of the two previous ones
2016-07-11T22:15:57Z wasamasa: for zero, the value is 1, same for one
2016-07-11T22:16:08Z wasamasa: but for two we can decompose it to the sum of the value for zero and one
2016-07-11T22:16:20Z wasamasa: for three we can decompose it to the som of the value for one and two
2016-07-11T22:16:21Z wasamasa: etc.
2016-07-11T22:16:56Z wasamasa: and this is most cleanly expressed in this recursive definition as everything eventually is reduced to (fib 0) or (fib 1)
2016-07-11T22:18:32Z n_blownapart: ok wasamasa thanks. I understand the recursive tree pattern and can diagram it. what I can't see here is how , say, lines 16-18 resolve to line 19 . could you walk me through it.? It's the same story: I need to visualize or I get lost.
2016-07-11T22:20:52Z n_blownapart: ie which lines in that output are showing the result of an addition from the list function.?
2016-07-11T22:20:53Z wasamasa: it's funny, I never really thought about why the fib definition works
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2016-07-11T22:21:29Z wasamasa: I don't even have an idea under which condition what of these comments is output
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2016-07-11T22:21:55Z n_blownapart: its sort of profound. Its strange... I really thought I had it, but I got accustomed to writing out everything by hand to remember stuff, now I can't grasp this one again.
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2016-07-11T22:29:58Z n_blownapart: I wonder if pierpa is available
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2016-07-11T22:48:39Z pierpa: FWIW, what I wrote had a different purpose than computing Fibonacci numbers
2016-07-11T22:49:44Z pierpa: and is written in that way because Blownapart was confused by multiple values
2016-07-11T22:50:14Z n_blownapart: pierpa: yeah thanks . I would be *very grateful* if you could refresh my memory. Since we did this problem...
2016-07-11T22:50:51Z pierpa: that was a function which along computing the fib number counted also the nodes visited along the way
2016-07-11T22:51:02Z n_blownapart: I got very involved with hand-writing output to keep track of the program. now looking at this again, I am slightly lost with how list is working there.
2016-07-11T22:51:39Z n_blownapart: yeah I still have no trouble doing the nodes in a tree chart and tallying up the values.
2016-07-11T22:52:27Z pierpa: btw, I think that writing these traces is counterproductive
2016-07-11T22:52:34Z wasamasa gasps
2016-07-11T22:53:42Z n_blownapart: pierpa: wasamasa please bear with me. I find they are the only way for me to see the program flow. this output is different from the racket trace as you know. it was helpful initially. I just hope..
2016-07-11T22:54:04Z pierpa: what is the question?
2016-07-11T22:54:15Z n_blownapart: at line 19 in the output.
2016-07-11T22:54:22Z n_blownapart:  ...
2016-07-11T22:54:57Z n_blownapart: that is the addition of lines 16-17, correct?
2016-07-11T22:55:02Z pierpa: I don't understand that output. How do you get it?
2016-07-11T22:55:21Z wasamasa: suggestion: enhance that trace of yours to include line numbers
2016-07-11T22:55:30Z wasamasa: that would eliminate that kind of discussion
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2016-07-11T22:55:52Z n_blownapart: by running the program you wrote for me pierpa :)
2016-07-11T22:55:58Z n_blownapart: thats the program
2016-07-11T22:56:32Z n_blownapart: I just forgot how to read the output. I had it before!
2016-07-11T22:56:33Z pierpa: that program takes one integer as input and returns a list of two integers as output, and does not print anything in the process. So something does not match
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2016-07-11T22:58:01Z n_blownapart: ?? I'm 99 % certain you wrote this for my benefit ... :)
2016-07-11T22:58:13Z pierpa: I'm 100% sure I didn't
2016-07-11T22:58:25Z n_blownapart: I just forgot the nuances... really? shit sorry
2016-07-11T22:58:45Z pierpa: I wrote the procedure
2016-07-11T22:59:01Z pierpa: I have no idea what it is the text below it
2016-07-11T22:59:18Z n_blownapart: sorry no the text below are notes to myself.
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2016-07-11T23:00:35Z n_blownapart: still, the output reflects the addition properties of the list
2016-07-11T23:01:29Z pierpa: the procedure takes one integer n, and returns a list of two numbers. The first of these numbers it's the nth fibonacci number, the second number is the number of nodes visited in the computation tree.
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2016-07-11T23:04:43Z n_blownapart: right, so the first line of output is where (fib 2) gives '1' and '0' , which is (1 1) (0 1)  .. then ..
2016-07-11T23:04:56Z pierpa: the number of leaves, actualy
2016-07-11T23:06:51Z n_blownapart: I really like this program, whoever wrote it; line 19 is the result of adding line 17 and 18. correct pierpa?
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2016-07-11T23:08:59Z pierpa: no idea
2016-07-11T23:09:25Z pierpa: you wrote line 19, so only you know what it means
2016-07-11T23:09:49Z n_blownapart: no, that is the actual output of the program. I merely commented it out
2016-07-11T23:10:04Z pierpa: anyway, the arithmetic looks right :)
2016-07-11T23:10:53Z n_blownapart: but please if you have time, it looks like the output doesn't do addition in each step..
2016-07-11T23:11:24Z n_blownapart: confused
2016-07-11T23:12:15Z wasamasa: did you consider improving the debug output, then doing some pattern matching to explain it?
2016-07-11T23:12:42Z wasamasa: there isn't much point in pretending to be the evaluator of a program that hasn't even been revealed
2016-07-11T23:12:58Z n_blownapart: any help / illustration appreciated
2016-07-11T23:13:15Z n_blownapart: I don't know how to do what you're speaking of
2016-07-11T23:14:09Z wasamasa: you don't know about the display and print procedures?
2016-07-11T23:14:51Z wasamasa: or if you want to get fancy, printf
2016-07-11T23:14:57Z n_blownapart: ok hold on the display part of this program was omitted from the paste. please hold on wasamasa pierpa
2016-07-11T23:15:48Z n_blownapart: https://www.refheap.com/120101
2016-07-11T23:16:11Z n_blownapart: sorry I can't believe that I have 3 copies of this file.
2016-07-11T23:16:12Z wasamasa: assuming you have something interesting on line 19, you could put on line 20 (printf "Line 19: ~a\n" foo)
2016-07-11T23:16:34Z pierpa: now it's understandable
2016-07-11T23:16:41Z pierpa: except for the extraneous begin
2016-07-11T23:17:10Z n_blownapart: good lord sorry this file is in a cherished "finished" directory
2016-07-11T23:17:19Z wasamasa: programmers sprinkle their code all the time with printfs to understand them better
2016-07-11T23:17:21Z pierpa: I mean, except for the missing open parenthesis
2016-07-11T23:17:25Z wasamasa: if you're having trouble, add more of them
2016-07-11T23:17:57Z wasamasa: like, if seeing the values of ans-1 and ans-2 isn't enough, print the value of n or what have you
2016-07-11T23:18:15Z wasamasa: then compare its values over time with what you'd expect
2016-07-11T23:18:26Z n_blownapart: wasamasa: please write it for me somewhere. foo's just melt my brain.
2016-07-11T23:19:28Z pierpa: ok. so, the answer to your question is that no, there's no straightforward relation between two lines and a third line following them
2016-07-11T23:20:04Z n_blownapart: pierpa: really ? that is crazy I thought for certain I was able to systematically follow this output about a month ago.
2016-07-11T23:20:41Z n_blownapart: like I said, I finally learned to hand-write output, so maybe this is throwing me off because of that
2016-07-11T23:21:02Z pierpa: each line is the sum of two preceding lines, but not the two immediately preceding lines
2016-07-11T23:21:24Z pierpa: no, wait
2016-07-11T23:21:31Z pierpa: I'm not even sure of this :)
2016-07-11T23:22:09Z n_blownapart: its brilliant regardless !
2016-07-11T23:22:39Z pierpa: I wish it was enough to write a fib procedure to be brilliant :)
2016-07-11T23:23:10Z n_blownapart: but you're right.. its :
2016-07-11T23:23:45Z n_blownapart: line 19 + 20 = line 22. where does 21 come in?
2016-07-11T23:24:11Z n_blownapart: then line 25 is another addition
2016-07-11T23:24:22Z pierpa: line 21 has been used to compute some other line following it
2016-07-11T23:24:39Z n_blownapart: yeah its offset
2016-07-11T23:25:15Z pierpa: btw, I could have used (map + ans-1 ans-2), which is shorter and clearer
2016-07-11T23:26:23Z n_blownapart: please paste it for a frustrated soul
2016-07-11T23:26:32Z pierpa: ah, now I remember. I wrote it in that way because initially there was values instead of list
2016-07-11T23:27:05Z pierpa: you could use the (map) expression above instead of (list (+ first...
2016-07-11T23:27:16Z n_blownapart: yeah I remember you wrote it first and it was hard for me to read. so you rewrote it
2016-07-11T23:28:21Z n_blownapart: without changing the cond lines?
2016-07-11T23:28:32Z pierpa: yes
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2016-07-11T23:28:43Z n_blownapart: thanks let me try it.
2016-07-11T23:31:04Z n_blownapart: the output is identical
2016-07-11T23:32:22Z pierpa: yes
2016-07-11T23:35:01Z n_blownapart: I'm still looking at the output and trying to follow it.
2016-07-11T23:35:13Z n_blownapart: sorry I have a method to my madness.
2016-07-11T23:36:45Z pierpa: I think it's just a waste of time to look at that output
2016-07-11T23:37:56Z n_blownapart: let me paste something that has been helpful. maybe you will agree with why it is helpful pier
2016-07-11T23:38:00Z n_blownapart: pierpa:
2016-07-11T23:40:09Z n_blownapart: this sort of exercise has allowed me to understand alot. in regards to the fib problem, I don't know how to draw out the tree leafs in similar fashion https://www.refheap.com/121364
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2016-07-11T23:54:00Z turbofail: is this output more helpful? http://sprunge.us/DXNB
2016-07-11T23:57:29Z n_blownapart:  thanks very much turbofail for taking so much time. I am able to work out the tree diagram along those lines. I figured out just now how pierpa 's output works. the first three lines of output are the results of this :
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2016-07-12T00:04:46Z n_blownapart: (fib 3) which resolves to (fib 2) ->  (+ (1 1) (0 1)) -> (1 2) and (fib 1) -> (1 1). combined that is (1 2) (1 1) the next line 21 is the result of (fib 2) -> (fib 1) and (fib 0) , which gives us another (1 1) and (0 1). so (fib 4) resolves to all those preceeding leafs I just did. so line 22 is the result of the first five leaves. it's brilliant pierpa !
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2016-07-12T00:06:40Z pierpa: why don't you print which number the lines refers to?
2016-07-12T00:07:12Z n_blownapart: and those first five leaves result from (fib 4) . then we have another identical resolution of (fib 3). so it makes sense . ok let me fix it pierpa and I'll paste it . its very cool
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2016-07-12T00:19:05Z n_blownapart: pierpa turbofail please see comments and critique : https://www.refheap.com/120101
2016-07-12T00:23:34Z n_blownapart: the first (1 1) in the output represents the 'left-most' leaf of the tree :  (fib 1) -> '1' = (1 1)
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2016-07-12T00:35:19Z pierpa: try this one https://bpaste.net/show/5c37febee1ae
2016-07-12T00:35:35Z pierpa: so you don't have to guess which line sums to each other line
2016-07-12T00:36:11Z n_blownapart: thanks so much pierpa ! Let me look, but I think I need not guess.
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2016-07-12T00:39:19Z n_blownapart: ok pierpa I need the evening to go though that. thank you ! I'm not familiar with that syntax . it looks like regex.
2016-07-12T00:39:37Z pierpa: the format string?  ignore it
2016-07-12T00:39:56Z n_blownapart: ok yeah I'll just read the output. it looks good
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2016-07-12T00:46:08Z n_blownapart: here's the thing: look at the older paste. line 22 is all of (fib 4) 's nodes added together. then the second (fib 3) 's node are listed and added to line 22 on line 25. that takes care of (fib 5)  which is (fib 4) and (fib 3). the remainder of the output is the results of doing (fib 4) again
2016-07-12T00:47:02Z n_blownapart: since (fib 6) resolves to (fib 5) and (fib 4). so everything is accounted for.
2016-07-12T00:47:17Z pierpa: whew
2016-07-12T00:47:57Z n_blownapart: I know but it works. thanks I really wanted to get to that. anyway pierpa I thought that was what you were trying to show me initially about a month ago!! :)
2016-07-12T00:49:30Z n_blownapart: Its easier with the full tree chart nearby. the interpreter must stop and add at each of the major branches.
2016-07-12T00:50:33Z pierpa: you don't need any tree chart or trace
2016-07-12T00:51:13Z n_blownapart: I'm serious: I can't imagine what you mean at this stage, though I'm sure that I am over-complicating it.
2016-07-12T00:52:23Z n_blownapart: This is someone else's solution - yours in this case - and I get lost when I just stare at the code. the output helps me understand, pig-headed as that may be :)
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2016-07-12T00:54:29Z n_blownapart: but if you think about the fib numbers as an arithmetic sequence, it also helps to see how the program builds up.
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2016-07-12T00:55:43Z n_blownapart: really thanks kindly pierpa for your help and patience. I gotta scoot.
2016-07-12T00:58:36Z pierpa: the point of the exercise is that you don't need to visualize the tree of execution
2016-07-12T01:00:05Z n_blownapart: do you mean the original sicp exercise? pierpa
2016-07-12T01:00:24Z n_blownapart: or our version of it?
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2016-07-12T01:02:37Z pierpa: of exercises in general
2016-07-12T01:06:10Z n_blownapart: ok thanks in that case please humor me -- its not humorous to me though -- until I can get to where you are speaking of .
2016-07-12T01:06:29Z n_blownapart: pierpa: later pax !
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2016-07-12T03:11:21Z zacts: hi schemers
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2016-07-12T08:42:50Z lloda: ecraven: lapack doesn't support general strides (for rank 2 operands one of the strides must be 1), so a non-copying interface from a general array type to lapack is not possible.
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2016-07-12T08:43:55Z ecraven: lloda: I'll have to think about that to understand it, but thank you very much for raising it!
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2016-07-12T13:27:23Z Oxford is now known as foot-criminal
2016-07-12T13:33:29Z foot-criminal is now known as Oxford
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2016-07-12T14:31:44Z dave24: hello, do any of you lads know how to display escaped special characters? I want to print coloured output to the terminal.
2016-07-12T14:32:17Z dave24: chibi-scheme, in case that matters
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2016-07-12T14:39:04Z jcowan: dave24: \x7A; will work in any R7RS Scheme to put ESC into a string
2016-07-12T14:39:24Z jcowan: after that, display is your friend, because it outputs strings without Scheme escaping
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2016-07-12T14:52:14Z dave24: jcowan: thanks!
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2016-07-12T18:46:35Z edw: info edw
2016-07-12T18:46:43Z edw: D'oh.
2016-07-12T18:47:11Z wasamasa: -NickServ- Information on edw (account edw):
2016-07-12T18:48:13Z edw: The command I was thinking of was /whois…
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2016-07-13T06:27:25Z BW^-: does "define-macro" have any "inline macro" variant that is typical?
2016-07-13T06:27:33Z BW^-: e.g. (macro (+ 5 5))   - to inline 10 in the code?
2016-07-13T06:29:31Z z0d: macros are read-time, right?
2016-07-13T06:32:28Z BW^-: z0d: yes.
2016-07-13T06:32:33Z BW^-: how come?
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2016-07-13T07:18:20Z BW^-: well i'll just do (define-macro (o) ...) (o) , works
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2016-07-13T07:46:59Z z0d: anyone uses org-gcal? is it reliable?
2016-07-13T07:47:06Z z0d: oops, wrong channel
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2016-07-13T13:21:42Z jcowan: hey ho
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2016-07-14T13:33:15Z jcowan: hey ho
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2016-07-14T14:09:23Z ecraven: hey :)
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2016-07-14T16:56:40Z teurastaja: (import (gauche array) (srfi 27))
2016-07-14T16:56:40Z teurastaja: (define rand (random-source-make-reals default-random-source))
2016-07-14T16:56:40Z teurastaja: (define (init i j) (tabulate-array (shape 0 i 0 j) (lambda (i j) (- (* 2 (rand)) 1))))
2016-07-14T16:56:40Z teurastaja: (define (connect in out) (array-map (lambda (z) (/ 1 (+ 1 (exp (- 0 z))))) (array-mul in out)))
2016-07-14T16:56:40Z teurastaja: (define (learn error output) (array-map (lambda (error out) (* error out (- 1 out))) error output))
2016-07-14T16:56:40Z teurastaja: (define (update synapse in error) (array-map + synapse (array-mul (array-transpose in) error)))
2016-07-14T16:56:42Z teurastaja: (define X (array (shape 0 4 0 3) 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 1 1)) (define y (array (shape 0 4 0 1) 0 1 1 0))
2016-07-14T16:56:44Z teurastaja: (let f ([k 60000] [syn1 (init 4 1)] [syn0 (init 3 4)])
2016-07-14T16:56:46Z teurastaja:   (let* ([l1 (connect X syn0)] [l2 (connect l1 syn1)] [error2 (learn (array-map - y l2) l2)]
2016-07-14T16:56:48Z teurastaja:            [error1 (learn (array-mul error2 (array-transpose syn1)) l1)])
2016-07-14T16:56:50Z teurastaja:     (if (< k 1) (list syn0 syn1) (f (- k 1) (update syn1 l1 error2) (update syn0 X error1))))))
2016-07-14T16:56:54Z teurastaja: nice eh?
2016-07-14T16:57:50Z teurastaja: since theres no action here...
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2016-07-14T17:04:08Z teurastaja: (lambda (bastards) (force (lazy bastards)))
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2016-07-14T17:14:02Z DGASAU: teurastaja: you want to take a look at games for ZX Spectrum. Some of them were played for years(!), like Elite.
2016-07-14T17:14:32Z teurastaja: DGASAU: im not a gamer but if its code ill look :P
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2016-07-14T17:15:50Z teurastaja: currently implementing this piece of code with voltages and currents. its a nice challenge
2016-07-14T17:16:18Z DGASAU: teurastaja: actually, Elite is quite significant piece of gaming software.
2016-07-14T17:16:20Z teurastaja: will take another month lol
2016-07-14T17:16:27Z DGASAU: You really want to take a look at it.
2016-07-14T17:16:35Z DGASAU: If you're interested in the topic.
2016-07-14T17:16:37Z teurastaja: what is it?
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2016-07-14T17:16:53Z teurastaja: if its AI yeah of course
2016-07-14T17:17:04Z DGASAU: It's hard to classify Elite.
2016-07-14T17:17:16Z DGASAU: Better find some article about it.
2016-07-14T17:17:31Z DGASAU: Maybe even Wikipedia has something valuable.
2016-07-14T17:17:41Z teurastaja: if i google elite im sure itll find me some singles ;)
2016-07-14T17:18:28Z DGASAU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_%28video_game%29
2016-07-14T17:19:38Z teurastaja: whats special about this game?
2016-07-14T17:19:47Z teurastaja: seems older than atari
2016-07-14T17:19:55Z teurastaja: just joking
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2016-07-14T17:21:11Z DGASAU: It is open-ended.
2016-07-14T17:21:20Z DGASAU: It has more than a million of possible worlds (all compressed into 22K).
2016-07-14T17:21:49Z teurastaja: evaluated lazily i guess?
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2016-07-14T17:23:12Z teurastaja: so whats new in scheme today?
2016-07-14T17:23:22Z teurastaja: new developments?
2016-07-14T17:23:31Z teurastaja: hows the small language going?
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2016-07-14T17:28:23Z ecraven: done, people moved on to large :)
2016-07-14T17:28:48Z teurastaja: yes but how about small?
2016-07-14T17:29:53Z ecraven: not an expert, but it *seems* to actually be implemented more and more
2016-07-14T17:30:31Z ecraven: for example, MIT/GNU Scheme, which to my knowledge completely ignored R6RS has added some of the bindings for R7RS (parameterize and friends, inexact/exact, ..)
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2016-07-14T17:58:01Z teurastaja: r7rs large is completely implemented on gauche as far as i used it development is finished but what is supposed to be included in r7rs small?
2016-07-14T17:58:13Z teurastaja: we dont even hear about it since large was out
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2016-07-14T18:07:50Z ecraven: teurastaja: I think you are confusing something, small is out, large is by far not finished
2016-07-14T18:07:55Z ecraven: do you mean r6rs?
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2016-07-14T18:28:18Z teurastaja: i meant r7rs
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2016-07-14T18:33:50Z ecraven: teurastaja: well, r7rs large is not finished yet, so how can gauche implement it completely?
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2016-07-14T18:35:36Z teurastaja: oh then it must be small
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2016-07-14T18:37:39Z teurastaja: the part thats not finished, what is going on with it?
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2016-07-14T18:43:42Z ecraven: the ballot for the first docket is just running, until the 19th
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2016-07-14T18:44:38Z jcowan_: 20th at noon UTC to be exact
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2016-07-14T18:45:59Z ijp: where do I make protest votes?
2016-07-14T18:46:52Z ecraven: ijp: what about?
2016-07-14T18:47:54Z jcowan_: I'm about to send out an email about ballot issue 11
2016-07-14T18:47:59Z jcowan_: voting will be on the wg2 list
2016-07-14T18:51:33Z teurastaja: how long do you estimate until the first draft and the final draft?
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2016-07-14T18:54:22Z ecraven: teurastaja: there's quite a few dockets, it won't be finished any time soon, I think.. but jcowan_ is definitely the right person to answer this much better :)
2016-07-14T18:55:33Z jcowan_: It won't be done by drafts, but by editions
2016-07-14T18:56:05Z jcowan_: the Red Edition will contain (if trends continue) about 16 new SRFIs, the orange draft another dozen or so, and so on until the ultra-violet (currently invisible) final edition is reached.
2016-07-14T18:56:25Z jcowan_: But the orange edition will not backtrack and reconsider the red edition (modulo errata)
2016-07-14T18:57:40Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan
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2016-07-14T18:59:11Z ijp: the ultraviolet edition is scheduled for 2064
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2016-07-14T20:11:35Z adu: jcowan: r7rs-large is making progress?
2016-07-14T20:12:08Z jcowan: adu: oh yes, vote is underway: see r7rs.org]
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2016-07-14T20:14:02Z adu: oOo multidim arrays :)
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2016-07-14T21:26:06Z teurastaja: this channel is depressingly semi-active
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2016-07-14T21:28:38Z wasamasa: nou
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2016-07-14T21:53:39Z mnesia: if I wnat to compile scheme to swift
2016-07-14T21:53:46Z mnesia: do I have to basically roll my own GC ?
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2016-07-14T21:56:32Z wasamasa: if the runtime doesn't provide it, sure
2016-07-14T21:56:43Z wasamasa: alternatively, write a scheme variant with stricter memory management :D
2016-07-14T22:01:05Z teurastaja: is it just second-shot continuations that break if you use reference counting for memory management?
2016-07-14T22:01:35Z mnesia: I think environments are inherently cyclic
2016-07-14T22:01:42Z mnesia: a closure keeps track of all the vars in it
2016-07-14T22:01:49Z mnesia: but each var keeps track of the lexical closure it's from
2016-07-14T22:02:07Z ecraven: One day a student came to Moon and said: "I understand how to make a better garbage collector. We must keep a reference count of the pointers to each cons." Moon patiently told the student the following story: "One day a student came to Moon and said: `I understand how to make a better garbage collector ...
2016-07-14T22:02:35Z mnesia: what happens next?
2016-07-14T22:02:43Z wasamasa: the garbage collector fails
2016-07-14T22:02:50Z mnesia: no
2016-07-14T22:02:53Z wasamasa: yes
2016-07-14T22:02:57Z teurastaja: obviously the same thing but the question is why
2016-07-14T22:03:13Z mnesia: the student invents haskell, because with laziness the story doesn't continue until one wants to read it
2016-07-14T22:03:25Z wasamasa: you wish
2016-07-14T22:04:29Z teurastaja: i wish scheme could express laziness as easily as haskell and i wish strings were lists of chars too
2016-07-14T22:04:39Z ijp: that's a bad string representation
2016-07-14T22:05:05Z teurastaja: obviously not because haskell uses it
2016-07-14T22:05:10Z ijp: that's why haskell invented Data.Text
2016-07-14T22:05:25Z teurastaja: which does what?
2016-07-14T22:05:34Z teurastaja: im a noob at haskell
2016-07-14T22:05:37Z ijp: gives a different representation for text
2016-07-14T22:06:39Z teurastaja: in terms of...?
2016-07-14T22:06:43Z teurastaja: a monad?
2016-07-14T22:07:09Z mnesia: isn't "make-lazy just a macro"?
2016-07-14T22:07:13Z mnesia: i.e. (lambda () ... )
2016-07-14T22:07:16Z ijp: monad is not the answer to every haskell question
2016-07-14T22:07:25Z teurastaja: macros cripple the namespace
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2016-07-14T22:07:38Z teurastaja: how do languages manage that?
2016-07-14T22:07:40Z ecraven: teurastaja: haskellers really moan about strings being array of char by default, no-one seems to like it in haskell-land
2016-07-14T22:08:12Z teurastaja: ecraven: it simplifies my view of the language
2016-07-14T22:08:23Z ecraven: there was an article on HN (I think) recently about haskell having 3 or 4 different “text” datatypes, because the default was awful :)
2016-07-14T22:08:43Z ecraven: teurastaja: yes, but as mentioned above and readily googleable, it is not a very good general format :)
2016-07-14T22:08:58Z ecraven: how do macros "cripple the namespace"?
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2016-07-14T22:09:30Z teurastaja: ecraven: as a noob, im not affected by this debate because its an abstraction layer over the datatype which enables lots of generalizations
2016-07-14T22:09:32Z ecraven: ijp: are you sure? it well could be :) there must be a text monad somewhere :p
2016-07-14T22:10:13Z ijp: mnesia: sure, lambda delays evaluation, but doing it manually gets tiresome
2016-07-14T22:10:26Z teurastaja: by cripple the namespace i mean it clobbers your code so you cant just develop a language based on macros else it with clobber program space
2016-07-14T22:10:45Z teurastaja: *will clobber
2016-07-14T22:10:55Z ijp: mind you, a related phenomemon occurs with strictness declarations
2016-07-14T22:11:10Z teurastaja: so how to save space?
2016-07-14T22:11:11Z ecraven: https://github.com/Gabriel439/post-rfc/blob/master/sotu.md: Note that there is one big catch: the default String type in Haskell is inefficient. You should always use Text whenever possible.
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2016-07-14T22:11:14Z ijp: I'm sure there is a koan for it somwhere
2016-07-14T22:11:47Z ecraven: teurastaja: sorry, I don't understand what you mean :-/
2016-07-14T22:12:29Z teurastaja: im still pondering on how to implement scheme on a 8051 with 30k XDATA memory (program/data memory)
2016-07-14T22:12:50Z ijp: one line at a time
2016-07-14T22:13:15Z teurastaja: i want to trim the algorithm before i can write any line
2016-07-14T22:13:42Z ecraven: teurastaja: there are minimal schemes around, maybe look at those for inspiration
2016-07-14T22:14:07Z teurastaja: im stuck with the reentrant stack being available for setjmp/longjmp and not knowing if i can implement call-with-current-continuation with that and starting from that
2016-07-14T22:14:35Z ijp: setjmp/longjmp isn't enough
2016-07-14T22:15:03Z teurastaja: ecraven: minimal isnt minimal by algorithm most of the time
2016-07-14T22:15:20Z ijp: 30k seems like plenty
2016-07-14T22:15:32Z teurastaja: like i tried to read the code for the arduino port and its too big
2016-07-14T22:16:18Z teurastaja: oh, and i can allocate a heap with either 4k or 16k i have to decide
2016-07-14T22:18:07Z teurastaja: but the real question is if i can implement continuations using a reentrant setjmp/longjmp
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2016-07-14T22:20:24Z teurastaja: basically the Keil compiler optimizes tail-calls but i have problems using function pointers without tweaking the linker object file
2016-07-14T22:21:03Z teurastaja: if anyone knows microcontrollers here that would help
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2016-07-14T22:25:52Z teurastaja: microcontrollers anyone?
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2016-07-14T22:37:16Z galex|713: How do I set the content bound to a quoted symbol? because I can’t do (set! (string->symbol some-string) some-content)
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2016-07-15T06:09:42Z mnesia: did http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TableOrientedProgramming ever catch on in scheme land?
2016-07-15T06:10:34Z ijp: no
2016-07-15T06:11:07Z mnesia: I can't figure out if it's a good idea or not
2016-07-15T06:11:15Z mnesia: whether the fundamental data tyes should be list/cons or a table
2016-07-15T06:13:31Z ggole_: There's nothing particularly fundamental about either
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2016-07-15T06:23:35Z wasamasa: I guess tables are minimally better
2016-07-15T06:23:49Z wasamasa: because it's less stupid to fake lists with tables, whereas faking tables with lists, eh
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2016-07-15T06:24:23Z wasamasa: but that's a lua thing, not what that article is about
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2016-07-15T07:47:32Z ecraven: mnesia: the fundamental type should be neither cons nor table, but both, and some more
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2016-07-15T07:56:24Z mnesia: ecraven: so clojure?
2016-07-15T07:56:43Z ecraven: or scheme or really any other useful language
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2016-07-15T08:00:56Z pjb: or Common Lisp, more practical: Practical Common Lisp http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
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2016-07-15T13:23:11Z mejja: Vive la France!
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2016-07-15T13:44:38Z galex|713: what?
2016-07-15T13:45:02Z galex|713: (oh sorry maybe it was sarcastic)
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2016-07-15T14:34:05Z jcowan_: Vive la France indeed, considering that 84 more French people have died unnatural deaths.
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2016-07-15T16:04:10Z webshinra: jcloud, notice that ~136 french die from alcool-related trouble per day
2016-07-15T16:04:22Z galex|713: x)
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2016-07-15T16:06:33Z ijp: webshinra: but not usually all at once
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2016-07-15T16:13:34Z webshinra: yes, but that doesn't justify to restrain citizen freedoms
2016-07-15T16:14:14Z webshinra: which is probably the worst response to terrorism.
2016-07-15T16:19:05Z ijp rolls eyes
2016-07-15T16:19:32Z webshinra: if you read french https://icezine.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/monde-guerre-ou-terrorisme-ne-pas-confondre/
2016-07-15T16:19:32Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/1VdwChHlOQ
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2016-07-15T16:38:44Z pjb: webshinra: there's a #lispcafe for non-lisp stuff shared amongst lispers.
2016-07-15T16:39:47Z webshinra: pjb, no problem, I was just answering the thought allready shared
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2016-07-15T17:30:52Z jcloud: webshinra: noted
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2016-07-15T21:03:31Z jcowan: Time for my ritual "Vote! Vote! Vote!
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2016-07-15T23:45:40Z retroj: taylan: still working on porting bytestructures to chicken.  the latest news is that there is not a good way for chicken's special files to exist in a subdirectory, so for the time being, the chicken port will be only in my github fork
2016-07-15T23:46:42Z retroj: taylan: once we get the release working and approved, it would be great if there could be installation instructions for chicken in the manual
2016-07-15T23:47:34Z retroj: taylan: i'm hoping that later on, a feature can be added to chicken's extension system that would allow the special files to be in a subdirectory, so that the chicken support code could be in upstream
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2016-07-16T02:47:06Z f-: How can I have a function with 2 return values?
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2016-07-16T02:55:32Z ijp: either return a list or use `values'
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2016-07-16T08:02:10Z taylan: retroj: sounds good.  thanks for the work!
2016-07-16T08:02:30Z taylan: retroj: I can link to your fork from my README for the time being
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2016-07-16T08:03:20Z taylan: well, or the README would be shared across the forks (for less complicated merging/rebasing), and the Chicken instructions would mention that they require that fork...
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2016-07-16T08:25:26Z f-: why ther eis no foldr/foldl for hash?
2016-07-16T08:25:37Z f-: to produce single accumulated value
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2016-07-16T13:20:50Z retroj: taylan: okay.  i do plan for the fork to stay up to date with your work
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2016-07-16T13:47:01Z retroj: taylan: i get an error in the tests, and i wonder if you have any insight: http://dpaste.com/1JYWGJG
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2016-07-16T14:29:52Z groovy2shoes: R6RS II.12.6 (p. 264) gives an example of `lisp-transformer`, but I can't seem to get it to actually *work* (or anything like it)...  the error I get (from plt-r6rs) is: "filthy-syntax: undefined;
2016-07-16T14:29:52Z groovy2shoes:  cannot reference an identifier before its definition"
2016-07-16T14:30:16Z groovy2shoes: I tried wrapping the definition up in a `begin-for-syntax`, but I get the same error either way
2016-07-16T14:30:45Z groovy2shoes: anyone know what I need to do to actually use a procedure in a transformer?
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2016-07-17T00:10:33Z taylan: retroj: looks like it may be a bignum issue?  I heard one needs to import the "numbers" egg in Chicken to get bignums.
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2016-07-17T00:12:25Z retroj: taylan: i'm here if you can spare a minute
2016-07-17T00:12:52Z taylan: yeah
2016-07-17T00:13:10Z retroj: taylan: here is a revised log.  there was an issue with the first one i posted getting cut off for some reason
2016-07-17T00:13:10Z retroj: http://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=ff6fc1fcf4d1164eb31e039c286b04513eba2702
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2016-07-17T00:13:47Z retroj: taylan: the issue does appear to be that the wrong (-) is getting called
2016-07-17T00:14:18Z retroj: sjamaan (chicken dev) thinks it could be a hygiene issue with the tests, as 'numbers' is imported
2016-07-17T00:14:29Z f-: hi
2016-07-17T00:14:47Z f-: why isn't there vector-set to set a slot in an immutable vector?
2016-07-17T00:14:48Z taylan: I guess it comes down to the '-' in Chicken's (scheme base)
2016-07-17T00:14:51Z f-: and returns that vector
2016-07-17T00:14:56Z f-: just like hash-set
2016-07-17T00:15:10Z retroj: that should be the one from numbers
2016-07-17T00:15:15Z f-: there is hash-set and hash-set!, but only vector-set!, no vector-set??
2016-07-17T00:15:33Z retroj: i'm not sure where the offending call to (-) is.  my guess is that it's in get-min/max
2016-07-17T00:15:37Z taylan: f- hi, standard scheme doesn't have hash-set or vector-set.  maybe you're thinking of Racket or so, for which there's #racket
2016-07-17T00:16:20Z f-: taylan: i'm using plt scheme
2016-07-17T00:18:05Z retroj: taylan: what is the reason for using a syntax for the numeric tests, rather than some normal iteration?
2016-07-17T00:18:31Z taylan: retroj: FWIW the offending value (18446744073709551615) seems to be UINT64_MAX
2016-07-17T00:18:44Z retroj: okay
2016-07-17T00:18:59Z taylan: f-: that's the old name of Racket
2016-07-17T00:19:15Z taylan: retroj: I don't remember the details why I used a macro...
2016-07-17T00:19:21Z retroj: okay
2016-07-17T00:19:30Z f-: taylan: ok, no one active in #racket, so I get here ;p
2016-07-17T00:19:53Z taylan: f-: ok, I'm not a Racketeer so can't help :)
2016-07-17T00:20:24Z retroj: taylan: thank you.  i'll let you know of any progress on this issue
2016-07-17T00:20:54Z taylan: oh I know again: it's so I can test the macro API as well
2016-07-17T00:21:05Z retroj: oh okay
2016-07-17T00:22:08Z retroj: taylan: i have a broader question as well.. the default testing behavior of srfi-64 is to write the testing log to a file, but error dumps still go to stdout.  this is the first time i've used srfi-64.  is this a usual practice with testing in guile and other schemes?
2016-07-17T00:22:32Z taylan: retroj: what's interesting is, uint64_max is the result of the expression (- (expt 256 size) 1), so it doesn't occur as an arg to - there, but I also don't see any other call to -
2016-07-17T00:23:21Z taylan: retroj: that's just what the SRFI 64 sample implementation does.  I actually have an alternative SRFI 64 implementation that prints out PASS/FAIL/etc. for every executed test to stdout
2016-07-17T00:23:37Z retroj: ok
2016-07-17T00:23:46Z taylan: (in R7RS!)
2016-07-17T00:24:38Z taylan: ok, going now, good luck!
2016-07-17T00:24:53Z retroj: hmm.. maybe i should look into that.  i just made a chiken egg of that example implementation
2016-07-17T00:24:56Z retroj: good night, thanks
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2016-07-17T00:26:39Z retroj: i think i have a theory on this error
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2016-07-17T02:44:03Z retroj: taylan: solved it.  the subtraction operation was in srfi-64, and i hadn't imported numbers into that module, so it broke when handed a bignum
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2016-07-17T03:48:32Z Menche: does guile support R7RS? if so, how do I use it?
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2016-07-17T08:54:05Z names: JackMc metaf5_ clog balkamos akkad C-Keen dan64 Kkiro ski Kryo ineiros XTL emma ohama joast snits Hijiri mario-goulart mikeyhc finnrobi_ gf3 jim mjl dsp micro` dTal klutometis benaiah M_D_K carc weinholt lalex kwmiebach ggherdov emmanueloga kori stasku____ GGMethos zbigniew cky leif pyro- NaNDude jrdnull DerGuteMoritz yosafbridge` kbtr zeroish eli stamourv mlaine NhanH choas antoszka drot drforr1 amoe_ ssake__ SirDayBat ozzloy jackdaniel dsp- eska makufiru
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2016-07-17T09:22:25Z galex|713: Menche: partially afaik
2016-07-17T09:22:27Z galex|713: in progress
2016-07-17T09:23:03Z galex|713: it supports all of R5RS, only parts of R6RS (willingly), and will support both R7RS in the future (some parts are already implemented)
2016-07-17T09:23:46Z galex|713: Yet the development is quite active so people is probably really willing to get contributions :)
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2016-07-17T15:46:27Z taylan: Menche: using the r7rs-wip branch, you can get almost full compliance.  if you're interested (you'll have to compile guile manually from that branch) I can find you the instructions...
2016-07-17T15:46:32Z taylan: actually, didn't I save them somewhere...
2016-07-17T15:47:23Z taylan: here  http://sprunge.us/BEfK
2016-07-17T15:47:55Z taylan: (I have a patch to support module names like "(srfi 1)" but it's not upstream yet)
2016-07-17T15:48:19Z taylan: https://github.com/taylanub/guile/tree/r7rs-wip
2016-07-17T15:49:13Z taylan: (FYI that's the r7rs-wip branch rebased on top of patches of mine; not the r7rs-wip branch with my patches on top of it)
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2016-07-17T19:05:21Z notdan: hi
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2016-07-17T20:07:23Z Menche: ah
2016-07-17T20:07:47Z galex|713: Menche: “ah” to what I said or what someone else said?
2016-07-17T20:08:30Z Menche: <taylan> Menche: using the r7rs-wip branch, you can get almost full compliance.  if you're interested (you'll have to compile guile manually from that branch) I can find you the instructions...
2016-07-17T20:09:10Z Menche: guile didn't recognize (import (scheme base))
2016-07-17T20:09:55Z galex|713: ah ok
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2016-07-17T20:12:13Z Menche: now, is there a guile extension for srfi-27
2016-07-17T20:13:05Z galex|713: yes there is :)
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2016-07-17T23:26:56Z taylan: Menche: you were running the r7rs-wip branch and guile didn't recognize (import (scheme base)) ?
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2016-07-17T23:33:30Z Menche: I wasn't on that branch no
2016-07-17T23:33:33Z Menche: just the last release
2016-07-17T23:33:41Z Menche: so there's no R7RS support there?
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2016-07-18T00:05:48Z taylan: Menche: no
2016-07-18T00:06:40Z taylan: neither the 'define-library' is recognized, nor are the libraries defined by R7RS present, in the stable-2.0 and master branches
2016-07-18T00:06:57Z taylan: *the 'define-library' form
2016-07-18T00:07:01Z Menche: ok
2016-07-18T00:07:23Z taylan gotta go again...
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2016-07-18T00:39:46Z pierpa: is geiser alive and maintained?
2016-07-18T00:40:33Z ijp: should be
2016-07-18T00:40:48Z pierpa: k. ty
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2016-07-18T01:16:26Z pierpa: kinda not working
2016-07-18T01:16:36Z pierpa: any racket/geiser user here?
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2016-07-18T17:39:10Z teurastaja: closures without function pointers: how?
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2016-07-18T18:10:18Z teurastaja: too tough to answer?
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2016-07-18T18:50:26Z jackdaniel: rather too imprecise – you don
2016-07-18T18:50:31Z jackdaniel: don't work on pointers directly
2016-07-18T18:50:34Z jackdaniel: in arguably any lisp
2016-07-18T18:51:47Z ijp: they are gone
2016-07-18T18:51:52Z jackdaniel: oh
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2016-07-18T18:57:50Z jcowan: And so are function pointers.
2016-07-18T18:58:07Z jcowan: There were early Lisps with pointers called "locatives"
2016-07-18T18:58:23Z jcowan: and some support for this yet, e.g. in Chicken
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2016-07-18T19:05:46Z ggole: There are a couple of interesting ways that I know of. Defunctionalisation is the major one, and there was a wacky method involving compiling code that contained the values of the free variables directly.
2016-07-18T19:08:25Z wasamasa: I recall an article about implementing closures for a ruby-like language
2016-07-18T19:09:30Z wasamasa: http://hokstad.com/how-to-implement-closures
2016-07-18T19:10:06Z ggole: That seems to use function pointers.
2016-07-18T19:10:30Z wasamasa: it's implemented in C after all
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2016-07-18T19:15:50Z ijp: at the end of the day, first class procedures are going to involve some sort of function pointer
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2016-07-18T19:23:42Z jcowan: Unless you inline everything into circular data structures, I guess.
2016-07-18T19:23:50Z wasamasa: but can you prove that?
2016-07-18T19:24:01Z wasamasa: what about java/C# and delegates?
2016-07-18T19:25:00Z ijp: was that for me or jcowan?
2016-07-18T19:25:07Z wasamasa: there you have a class with a call method doing the right thing and create an instance of it
2016-07-18T19:25:25Z wasamasa: then you can do myDelegate.call() and have something not quite like first-class functions...
2016-07-18T19:26:03Z wasamasa: ijp: you of course
2016-07-18T19:26:20Z ijp: what's to prove? that's effectively what a first class procedure is
2016-07-18T19:29:00Z jcowan: I think it was about circular inlining
2016-07-18T19:29:31Z jcowan: If recursion is not allowed, you can inline everything, and even if it is allowed, you can inline everything provided you do the inlining lazily.
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2016-07-19T15:12:09Z pflanze: Hi. I'm looking for a function to build groups of list items, not by predicate, but simply by number of them.
2016-07-19T15:12:51Z pflanze: i.e. (groupn '(a b c d e f) 3) would return ((a b c) (d e f))
2016-07-19T15:14:36Z Kooda: pflanze: would something like split-at from srfi-1 suit you?
2016-07-19T15:15:27Z pflanze: I want it to group items up repeatedly.
2016-07-19T15:15:58Z pflanze: Think: (groupn  '(a: 1 b: 2 c: 3) 2)
2016-07-19T15:16:47Z wasamasa: hm
2016-07-19T15:17:16Z wasamasa: http://api.call-cc.org/doc/data-structures#sec:chop :P
2016-07-19T15:17:30Z wasamasa: now to reimplement that in portable scheme...
2016-07-19T15:17:57Z pflanze: Also odd name?
2016-07-19T15:18:10Z wasamasa: I'd otherwise try to use take from srfi-1 repeatedly
2016-07-19T15:18:29Z pflanze: I'm using that so often, there must be something.
2016-07-19T15:18:58Z pflanze: I'm pretty sure I implemented that function like 5 times already, but losing it each time again because I never know what name to give it to make it part of my standard library.
2016-07-19T15:19:17Z wasamasa: tabulate, group, etc.
2016-07-19T15:19:28Z pflanze: Also, usually hard-coded to 2 items but that's a bit stupid. But tell me if you know a good name for binary groupings.
2016-07-19T15:19:47Z wasamasa: I'd think of pairs if that term weren't used already...
2016-07-19T15:19:48Z pflanze: group is already taken in my library for one that takes a predicate; yeah, stupid decision maybe.
2016-07-19T15:19:58Z wasamasa: not too late to rename it to group-by :P
2016-07-19T15:20:02Z pflanze: But haskell has group and it also compares items.
2016-07-19T15:20:25Z pflanze: Currently trying to figure out if haskell has my thingie.
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2016-07-19T15:33:44Z pflanze: Hoogle has chunksOf: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/split-0.2.3.1/docs/Data-List-Split.html#v:chunksOf
2016-07-19T15:33:44Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/ndkRYI5CQO
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2016-07-19T16:08:10Z jcowan: pflanze: group-by-size works for me
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2016-07-19T18:24:35Z pssedmofo: Why in the FUCK isn't this working!? https://repl.it/CdgA
2016-07-19T18:24:42Z pssedmofo: It's pissing me the FUCK off!
2016-07-19T18:24:59Z pssedmofo: I see no logical error in the blooding FUCKING code!
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2016-07-19T18:45:25Z wasamasa: yey, anger-driven programming
2016-07-19T18:47:17Z wasamasa: protip: if you want a language where you get from the description of the problem to a working solution, prolog is great!
2016-07-19T18:48:40Z wasamasa: you'll get nowhere by setting a function argument to something as this is no C :P
2016-07-19T18:51:13Z wasamasa: if you for whatever want to encapsulate this as is, use a closure with closed over storage and mutate it
2016-07-19T18:51:36Z wasamasa: however it would be better style to create a record or otherwise mutable data structure and write functions operating on it
2016-07-19T18:51:54Z wasamasa: or even better, keep everything immutable and return new values because functional programming is cool
2016-07-19T18:52:05Z wasamasa: pssedmofo: you there?
2016-07-19T18:53:52Z pssedmofo: Yeah. Along with ADP, I think I'll take up your advice on sticking to the immutability of FP.
2016-07-19T18:54:10Z Blukunfando: pssedmofo, you’re trying to use the value returned by display as a procedure.
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2016-07-19T18:57:41Z pssedmofo: Ah, yep. Damnit all.
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2016-07-19T22:09:54Z jcowan: 27 people have voted on R7RS Red Edition.  About 14 hours left.
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2016-07-20T02:01:20Z avalokite: /eval /channel add -auto $C $chatnet
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2016-07-20T02:04:33Z avalokite: eval echo $C $chatnet
2016-07-20T02:05:00Z avalokite: eval }echo $C $chatnet
2016-07-20T02:05:30Z avalokite: eval /echo $C $chatnet
2016-07-20T02:06:30Z avalokite: eval channel add -auto $C $chatnet
2016-07-20T02:09:50Z avalokite: err, sorry. I had no idea this was going to ALL channels. God. having to say this to everyone is driving me mad.
2016-07-20T02:13:41Z retroj: avalokite: is your nickname derived from avalokiteshvara?
2016-07-20T02:14:39Z avalokite: retroj: Shiva has nothing to do with this. :-)
2016-07-20T02:15:19Z retroj: is that what it breaks down as?
2016-07-20T02:15:22Z retroj: interesting
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2016-07-20T02:16:18Z avalokite: svara and shvara, though yes, avalokitesvara is the the derivation of my nick, avalokite
2016-07-20T02:17:07Z retroj: ah, interesting
2016-07-20T02:19:14Z avalokite: I thank you for your recognition :)
2016-07-20T02:20:07Z retroj: i've been having notions to learn sanskrit.  it seems really interesting.
2016-07-20T02:26:30Z avalokite: Really feels like haskell, except no one uses sanskrit anymore in conversation (world of lazy evaluation!)
2016-07-20T02:26:39Z avalokite: Sanskrit is worth learning.
2016-07-20T02:27:04Z retroj: haha
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2016-07-20T05:28:14Z ecraven: vote vote vote!
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2016-07-20T14:52:04Z jcowan: The R7RS Red Edition ballot is now complete, with 28 votes counted.
2016-07-20T14:53:30Z jcowan: tl;dr version: all unopposed SRFIs passed except 129 (titlecase)
2016-07-20T14:53:56Z jcowan: SRFI 125 (backward compatible with SRFI 69, but not with R6RS) passed.
2016-07-20T14:54:23Z jcowan: SRFI 135 (immutable texts) passed despite last-minute competition from SRFI 140.
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2016-07-20T14:55:08Z jcowan: For a (mutable) string library, there was no majority vote.  "No library" had a plurality, but SRFI 13 and SRFI 130 jointly outvoted it, so the question will be reballoted.
2016-07-20T14:56:07Z jcowan: Email will follow to chicken-{users,hackers}, chibi, chez-scheme, WG1 and WG2, and c.l.s
2016-07-20T14:56:39Z jcowan: The returns are visible at http://tinyurl.com/wg2-red-results
2016-07-20T14:56:56Z jcowan: Corrections will be accepted for 24 hours, so these results are not final
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2016-07-20T15:45:32Z DeeEff: I missed the R7RS-large-red results. Is there a web link to the announcement?
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2016-07-20T16:54:57Z jcowan: R7RS-Red announcement at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/scheme-reports-wg2/5TdQWW9qnUM
2016-07-20T16:55:11Z jcowan: ballots at http://tinyurl.com/wg2-red-results
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2016-07-20T19:56:37Z ecraven: jcowan: sorry to only ask this now, but are these results "binding"? or just an opinion for WG2/
2016-07-20T19:57:00Z jcowan: Binding
2016-07-20T19:57:12Z jcowan: The people who voted *are* WG2
2016-07-20T19:59:16Z ecraven: wow, cool :)
2016-07-20T20:26:52Z DeeEff[m]: I think the biggest tragedy is the lack of consensus on mutable string libraries. Coming from a mostly numerical background though I can't really say too much either way on strings.
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2016-07-20T20:32:40Z jcowan: De facto it means there is no mutable string library, which doesn't bother me any, as I don't really see a use case for mutable but fixed-length strings any more, and they are a pain in some systems.
2016-07-20T20:33:03Z jcowan: Qua R7RS fearless leader, though, I have to get a majority vote somehow.
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2016-07-20T20:36:52Z relyks: Does anyone of a tool that lets you design s-expressions by creating trees in a gui?
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2016-07-20T20:44:26Z pierpa: any text editor will do this
2016-07-20T20:45:17Z relyks: pierpa: lie what?
2016-07-20T20:45:20Z relyks: like*
2016-07-20T20:45:28Z pierpa: any
2016-07-20T20:45:48Z pierpa: how do you want the tree ahown?
2016-07-20T20:45:53Z pierpa: *shown
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2016-07-20T20:46:31Z ecraven: paredit is good for this :)
2016-07-20T20:46:44Z relyks: I just found out about paredit from #lisp
2016-07-20T20:46:45Z relyks: :)
2016-07-20T20:47:21Z relyks: pierpa: I was just thinking that I want a better way to edit my s-expressions to test my functions. the parentheses are killing me
2016-07-20T20:47:57Z pierpa: then you must overcome this. It doesn't take long
2016-07-20T20:48:15Z relyks: ok thanks :)
2016-07-20T20:48:16Z DeeEff[m]: Not that I'd ever use it, but sounds like you might like Wisp / SRFI 119
2016-07-20T20:48:31Z pierpa: if you are struggling because of the parentheses, maybe you are not using a good editor
2016-07-20T20:48:36Z DeeEff[m]: basically replaces all parentheses with tabs.
2016-07-20T20:48:48Z DeeEff[m]: but yeah eventually you'll come to want the parentheses
2016-07-20T20:50:08Z relyks: pierpa: yeah, that's definitely a good point
2016-07-20T20:50:26Z relyks: DeeEff[m]: I just found this http://readable.sourceforge.net/ which is similar to wisp
2016-07-20T20:50:53Z pierpa: sigh
2016-07-20T20:50:55Z pierpa: :)
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2016-07-21T00:21:01Z retroj: i'm using bytestructures for some data that will be processed by a series of procedures, and in the last step, the data gets sent to hardware.  in the last step, the data types and packing must all be converted to what the hardware expects, but in all earlier steps, it is more convenient to work in other datatypes.  for example, during processing, fieldfoo might be a float between 0.0 and 1.0, but at the last step, it would be converted
2016-07-21T00:21:01Z retroj: to a uint32.
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2016-07-21T00:22:32Z retroj: i'm looking for some thoughts on how i could, as simply as possible, have the 'internal' datatypes alongside the 'external' datatypes, and the conversion procedures needed in the last step, with bytestructures
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2016-07-21T00:43:07Z retroj: taylan: i wonder if you have any thoughts on that
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2016-07-21T06:30:46Z ecraven: retroj: write a macro that generates ->x and x-> to convert, based on a simple DSL
2016-07-21T06:31:07Z ecraven: at least that's what I did for a prototypical Xorg interface :)
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2016-07-21T12:08:53Z retroj: ecraven: thanks for the idea
2016-07-21T12:11:39Z retroj: i would like to add a more concrete example, because i think i was a little unclear in my question.
2016-07-21T12:12:06Z retroj: my program deals with more than color arrays, but a color array is a good example.  internally for processing, i would use (bs:vector 100 (bs:struct '((r float64) (g float64) (b float64)))), but when writing to hardware, this bytestructure would be converted to (bs:vector 100 (bs:struct '((r uint8) (g uint8) (b uint8))))
2016-07-21T12:12:56Z retroj: (the floats would be numbers between 0.0 and 1.0, and the unint8s would be 0--255)
2016-07-21T12:13:43Z retroj: for any given field in this system, i need to store its type in these two different bytestructures, and the means to convert
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2016-07-21T12:51:07Z ecraven: maybe write a macro, something like (define-my-record color 100 (r float64 uint8 f64->u8) (g float64 uint8 f64->u8) (b float64 uint8 f64->u8)) which does the two record type definitions (maybe %color for the "internal one" and color for the "external one") and also defines color->%color
2016-07-21T12:54:12Z retroj: i'm concerned that that will entail reproducing bytestructures's entire descriptor parse code
2016-07-21T12:54:19Z taylan ponders whether one could write some sort of "union+" descriptor that handles this use case
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2016-07-21T12:56:17Z taylan: yeah, a descriptor that takes two types and a pair of procedures for converting each type to the other, should be simple.
2016-07-21T12:56:50Z taylan tries to gear up the brain...  been sloppy lately :P
2016-07-21T12:56:59Z retroj: :-)
2016-07-21T12:57:58Z retroj: i'm also interested in fast conversion, when needed, meaning that in that final step, an iteration that would run through the bytestructure converting the whole thing without a lot of extra lookup
2016-07-21T12:59:08Z retroj: bytestructures currently supports fast conversion of a scheme vector to a bytevector, and i am thinking of something like that, but bytevector to bytevector with type conversion
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2016-07-21T13:06:39Z taylan: retroj: is it important to be able to access the integer values in your own code, or will you be passing the whole bytevector to the hardware as-is?  if the latter, then one could just create a "uint8-backed-float" type whose setter accepts (and getter gives) values between 0.0 and 1.0, but actually stores an integer 0-255 in the bytevector.
2016-07-21T13:07:26Z retroj: the latter
2016-07-21T13:07:27Z taylan: (this would also mean losing precision as soon as the float is written though; upon retrieval one would generally get a slightly different float value than the one that was written)
2016-07-21T13:07:58Z retroj: i would prefer not to lose precision, as that is part of the point of using floats internally
2016-07-21T13:08:09Z taylan: hm, ok
2016-07-21T13:08:56Z taylan: hack: the descriptor itself remembers the last written float value (closures FTW) without storing it in the bytevector...  lemme try writing such a descriptor...
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2016-07-21T13:10:16Z retroj: most of what happens in the program is using the floats.  only the last step produces the integers
2016-07-21T13:10:24Z retroj: (or whatever the hardware wants)
2016-07-21T13:11:36Z retroj: different bytevectors can share descriptors, right?  storing data in the descriptor would necessitate copying the descriptor for every single bytevector
2016-07-21T13:11:54Z taylan: oh that's right
2016-07-21T13:12:56Z taylan: how about a nullary procedure returning such a descriptor on every call?
2016-07-21T13:13:02Z taylan: (getting pretty hacky here)
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2016-07-21T13:13:32Z retroj: you could think of what i'm doing as a processing pipeline, and each step may have one or more of its own version of the bytevector it's working on
2016-07-21T13:15:39Z retroj: what about your union+ idea?  if i could define a 'master descriptor' that contained all of the needed type and conversion information, could i traverse the descriptor to derive the 'internal' version?
2016-07-21T13:16:45Z retroj: then all of the processing steps could use that 'internal' descriptor, and the final conversion step could use the one with the 'union+' descriptors
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2016-07-21T13:19:17Z taylan: here's an untested proof of concept of the uint8-backed-float idea; dunno if useful for you:  http://sprunge.us/XVJh
2016-07-21T13:19:48Z taylan: (the first lambda is the getter, the second the setter)
2016-07-21T13:21:12Z taylan: one could use that as part of a union so one can easily get the raw uint8 value as well
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2016-07-21T13:23:16Z retroj: this feels like a big hack to me, as it greatly increases the memory needed
2016-07-21T13:24:10Z retroj: i think it is also doing a lot of extra processing, converting between floats and uint8 during all of the processing steps that only need to work with floats
2016-07-21T13:24:15Z taylan: depends on how many such fields will exist in total I guess.  usually that's a bound number after all.
2016-07-21T13:24:42Z taylan: true, it converts to float on every set operation
2016-07-21T13:24:50Z taylan: er, converts to uint8
2016-07-21T13:25:44Z retroj: i have in mind arbitrary complexity for the amount of processing that might be done on this data
2016-07-21T13:26:33Z retroj: is it a possibility to traverse a descriptor tree, such that it could be converted to a different descriptor tree?
2016-07-21T13:28:24Z taylan: reflection on descriptors isn't supported very well :(
2016-07-21T13:29:11Z retroj: perhaps what ecraven was saying is the way to go then.  if i had a "metadescriptor" structure that contained all of this information, from which either descriptor could be derived.
2016-07-21T13:29:50Z taylan: I worked on it a bit while implementing the conversion from bytestructure descriptors to Guile FFI type descriptors, and only managed to add it as kind of a hack; it's quite difficult without having sub-typeable record types
2016-07-21T13:30:46Z retroj: i see.. yes, since a descriptor can contain closures with arbitrary contents, i see why it would not be iterable
2016-07-21T13:32:33Z taylan: right.  a past design had it that descriptor records consisted of a "descriptor type" field and a "contents" (type-specific) field, so it was kind of a manually implemented one-level subtyping system, but it was very complicated and not extensible beyond that one level
2016-07-21T13:32:46Z retroj: are there methods in the api that, given a type such as uint16be, i can get the number of storage bytes (2) or min and max values that can be stored in that type, and whether it is exact or inexact?
2016-07-21T13:34:04Z taylan: there's (bytestructure-descriptor-size descriptor)
2016-07-21T13:35:02Z taylan: if one knows it to be an integer type or knows it to be a float type, min/max can be derived from that, which the test suite does
2016-07-21T13:35:08Z retroj: okay
2016-07-21T13:35:44Z retroj: i don't think that my particular application needs signed integers for anything, but for reference, could one also determined signed vs. unsigned?
2016-07-21T13:36:02Z taylan: and there's an e.g. (bytestructures r7 numeric-metadata) library where there's alists mapping all the numeric types...
2016-07-21T13:36:43Z taylan: e.g. it exports signed-integer-native-descriptors, signed-integer-le-descriptors, ..., float-native-descriptors, ..., integer-descriptors, float-descriptors, ...
2016-07-21T13:36:56Z taylan: one can check for membership with those
2016-07-21T13:37:22Z retroj: okay, great
2016-07-21T13:37:49Z taylan: they're undocumented but the format of their contents can be seen in the definition of `define-numeric-descriptors` (note plural) in body/numeric.scm
2016-07-21T13:38:24Z taylan: namely, the template of the macro contains:
2016-07-21T13:38:24Z taylan: (define <list> (list (list <name> '<name> <getter> <setter>) ...))
2016-07-21T13:38:34Z retroj: numeric-descriptors is the master list, i see
2016-07-21T13:38:41Z taylan: yeah
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2016-07-21T13:40:12Z retroj: assuming i had my "metadescriptor" that contained all of the conversion information needed, from which i could derive internal and external descriptors, how would you go about conversion from a bytestructure of the internal form to one of the external form, in the most efficient way?
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2016-07-21T13:43:38Z taylan: do I understand right that you will be having two bytestructures (i.e. two bytevectors and two descriptors) for each type?
2016-07-21T13:44:05Z taylan: er, two descriptors for each type and two bytevectors for each value
2016-07-21T13:44:36Z taylan: I'm a bit confused as to what the strategy you have in mind is
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2016-07-21T13:45:27Z retroj: okay.  i would define a structure like ecraven suggested earlier: (define-my-record color 100 (r float64 uint8 f64->u8) (g float64 uint8 f64->u8) (b float64 uint8 f64->u8))
2016-07-21T13:45:56Z retroj: from this structure, i would derive a descriptor for the internal (floats) format and do all of my processing with that descriptor
2016-07-21T13:46:43Z retroj: then for the last step of the pipeline, i just need a procedure that takes an 'internal' bytevector and converts it to external form (uints)
2016-07-21T13:48:46Z retroj: i think i see the answer to this question.  a conversion descriptor could be created, where every subdescriptor calls its conversion procedure
2016-07-21T13:48:56Z taylan: so for most of run-time you use a bytevector containing floats, wrapped into a bytestructure for easy processing.  and at the last step you generate a bytevector containing integers instead (which isn't necessarily wrapped into a bytestructure since the scheme program won't really be working with its contents).  is that right?
2016-07-21T13:49:15Z retroj: right
2016-07-21T13:52:14Z taylan: hmm, I wonder if bytestructures is really necessary then, since the values being worked with don't need to be within a bytevector for most of the program.  maybe it would be simpler to just use regular records in the program, then convert data structures into bytevectors before passing to hardware.
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2016-07-21T13:52:43Z retroj: that's true, but bytestructures has a number of convenient properties for the kind of processing that i want to do
2016-07-21T13:52:43Z taylan: (though SRFI 9 doesn't allow for reflection any better than bytestructures...)
2016-07-21T13:52:48Z taylan: ok
2016-07-21T13:53:24Z retroj: such as that the data is packed, so it can be passed to other libraries easily, and that type information is all there in a convenient form
2016-07-21T13:54:35Z retroj: (for example, if i'm working with pixel data, i might want to pass it to an image processing library for one step)
2016-07-21T13:54:43Z taylan: I see
2016-07-21T13:56:04Z retroj: i think i see how to create the conversion descriptors for that last step, but my last question is the most efficient way to iterate the vector to perform the conversion
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2016-07-21T13:58:24Z retroj: (the other very convenient thing about bytestructures is its clean support for endianness)
2016-07-21T14:00:03Z taylan: reflection would make things so much easier here.  the only way I can think of with the current API is to indeed duplicate parts of the API.  so e.g. bs:struct would have an alternative, let's say bs*:struct, that parses the fields argument to create metadata for later iteration.
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2016-07-21T14:01:52Z taylan: this could take an altered fields argument that also contains the conversion information...
2016-07-21T14:02:12Z taylan: akin to the snippet above: (define-my-record color 100 (r float64 uint8 f64->u8) (g float64 uint8 f64->u8) (b float64 uint8 f64->u8))
2016-07-21T14:03:17Z taylan: (bs*:struct `((r ,float64 ,uint8 ,f64->u8) ...))
2016-07-21T14:03:18Z retroj: i'm fine with defining my own metadescriptor from which the other descriptors can be derived.  after thinking about it, i think that is an excellent approach.
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2016-07-21T14:05:32Z taylan: (I guess the ,uint8 part is unnecessary)
2016-07-21T14:06:11Z taylan: so fields would look like (name desc converter) or (name desc), and in the latter case the desc is assumed to be another compound one, and conversion delegated to it
2016-07-21T14:07:42Z retroj: (name desc converter)?  not (name desc1 desc2 converter)?
2016-07-21T14:07:59Z taylan: this bs*:struct would have a corresponding struct-convertor that works with the metadata created by bs*:struct.  like (define (struct-convertor meta from-bytevector from-bv-starting-offset to-bytevector to-bv-starting-offset) ...)
2016-07-21T14:08:24Z taylan: retroj: desc2 isn't really necessary unless you indeed want another bytestructure instead of just another bytevector in the final step
2016-07-21T14:08:34Z taylan: if I'm not mistaken
2016-07-21T14:08:35Z retroj: ah
2016-07-21T14:09:02Z retroj: the size of the destination bytevector needs to be computed
2016-07-21T14:09:29Z taylan: oh right, I guess providing desc2 is best then
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2016-07-21T14:23:56Z retroj: taylan: i'm undecided whether it will be best to implement my needs as descriptors like bs*:struct, or whether i am better off with a separate data structure entirely.  there could be advantages to the latter option, like flexibility to add more features later on.
2016-07-21T14:25:10Z retroj: i'm not sure i would want to add this as a feature to bytestructures itself, as it seems rather specific to a single use case
2016-07-21T14:31:07Z retroj: taylan: given a bytevector and a descriptor, is it possible to iterate all values in the bytevector in order?
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2016-07-21T14:47:09Z taylan: retroj: nope, at least not without peeking into the undocumented metadata field of struct/vector/union descriptors.
2016-07-21T14:52:11Z retroj: ok
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2016-07-21T14:53:41Z retroj: that could be a useful feature - a way to map or fold a descriptor, where the map function would get each value and its name and type.  (i have no basis for knowing whether or not that is even possible with how bytestructures is designed)
2016-07-21T14:54:07Z retroj: sorry,  i mean map or fold a bytevector
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2016-07-21T15:16:14Z retroj: taylan: unrelated note, would you accept a patch like this?  https://github.com/retroj/scheme-bytestructures/commit/6827e7a597690427045c0ac97b9f002dd1886a06
2016-07-21T15:16:14Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/4UrjuHWcK2
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2016-07-21T15:18:56Z retroj: gtg, bbl
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2016-07-21T20:17:56Z leppie: http://stackoverflow.com/documentation/scheme/topics
2016-07-21T20:22:39Z dpk: https://twitter.com/EliTerry/status/391033325076619264
2016-07-21T20:23:39Z leppie: lol
2016-07-21T20:23:56Z DeeEff[m]: dpk: please stop taking shots at millenials our fragile egos can't handle it
2016-07-21T20:24:22Z leppie is a 70's baby :D
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2016-07-21T20:24:41Z leppie: in fact, I am as old as scheme itself!
2016-07-21T20:25:12Z pjb: Congratulations!
2016-07-21T20:26:20Z leppie: I think was dad was scheming to make me before scheme even existed :D
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2016-07-21T20:28:44Z jcowan: I'm about as old as Lisp
2016-07-21T20:29:11Z leppie: about 13.8 billions years :D
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2016-07-21T20:31:08Z leppie: :(
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2016-07-21T20:51:53Z taylan: retroj: yes I would; in fact it annoyed me today while reading my own README that I didn't have headers there :)
2016-07-21T20:53:41Z taylan tries to figure out whether ey can merge that branch to master in the github UI without there being a pull request...
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2016-07-21T20:54:31Z taylan: heh, I can create a PR for myself then accept it
2016-07-21T20:54:46Z wasamasa: now that's crazy talk
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2016-07-21T20:56:17Z taylan: :)
2016-07-21T20:56:38Z wasamasa: it's almost as if you're subverting the probably most convoluted way of contributing code to a project
2016-07-21T20:57:07Z taylan: clickedy click interfaces are nice for when you're lazy :P
2016-07-21T20:57:14Z wasamasa has seen team members at college creating PRs from thin air
2016-07-21T20:58:29Z wasamasa: must be that editor github added to their web interface
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2016-07-21T21:31:56Z DeeEff[m]: I mean, you could just fetch the branch and merge to master then push.
2016-07-21T21:32:29Z DeeEff[m] uses git CLI almost exclusively
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2016-07-21T22:41:50Z retroj: thanks, taylan
2016-07-21T22:42:46Z retroj: apropos of nothing, do github pull requests always create a merge commit?  that behavior bugs me.  i wish it would fast-forward when possible
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2016-07-21T22:54:33Z wasamasa: well, you can fast-forward manually :P
2016-07-21T22:54:46Z wasamasa: also, there's some alternative merge strategy you can enable per-project...
2016-07-21T22:54:50Z wasamasa: pretty sure it's rebasing
2016-07-21T22:57:21Z retroj: i just want it to be automatic and simple
2016-07-21T22:57:23Z retroj: :-)
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2016-07-22T14:13:41Z jcowan: hey ho
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2016-07-22T14:47:10Z ecraven: hey :)
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2016-07-23T01:39:24Z xyh: foof`: hi
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2016-07-23T02:11:29Z groovy2shoes: Jul 21 02:30:12 <ecraven> at least that's what I did for a prototypical Xorg interface :)
2016-07-23T02:11:46Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, is this code available on the Web somewhere?  ^
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2016-07-23T04:19:23Z rocx: oi. how would it be possible to access one of four values a function returned? they're not really in a list.
2016-07-23T04:19:45Z rocx: specifically (open-process-ports).
2016-07-23T04:19:54Z ijp: call-with-values or let-values or define-values (if you have it) or receive or ...
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2016-07-23T04:25:28Z rocx: think that'll do. thanks.
2016-07-23T04:25:34Z rocx: ijp: haven't i... seen you somewhere before?
2016-07-23T04:25:42Z rocx: either in #lisp or #emacs?
2016-07-23T04:28:12Z ijp: #emacs
2016-07-23T04:30:43Z rocx: yeah. i recognize some of these /names. some even from rizon.
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2016-07-23T06:43:29Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: no, it's very much a prototype, but if you're interested, I'll see what I can do
2016-07-23T06:43:48Z groovy2shoes: sweet :)  is it something like CLX ?
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