2016-05-01T00:09:04Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-01T00:21:16Z turbopape quit (Quit: Quitte) 2016-05-01T00:26:08Z jcowan: Larceny ignores version numbers 2016-05-01T00:26:30Z jcowan: hopefully it will soon ignore phasing specifications and do implicit phasing, too 2016-05-01T00:27:28Z ijp: I thought it used them to select between library forms in the same file 2016-05-01T00:27:28Z ijp: 2016-05-01T00:27:50Z ijp: I'm probably misremembering since I haven't looked at larceny this decade 2016-05-01T00:28:38Z jcowan: Ah. 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Emacs' Scheme mode doesn't highlight WHEN and UNLESS correctly :-/ 2016-05-01T09:27:58Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2016-05-01T09:31:11Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-01T09:48:16Z pjb joined #scheme 2016-05-01T09:51:04Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T09:52:46Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-01T09:55:38Z Tbone139 joined #scheme 2016-05-01T10:11:14Z wasamasa: must be them not being part of any standard :P 2016-05-01T10:14:13Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-01T10:22:57Z ecraven: wasamasa: read R7RS again :p 2016-05-01T10:23:15Z ecraven: page 11 for example, right under AND and OR 2016-05-01T10:23:19Z ecraven: s/under/below/ 2016-05-01T10:29:28Z dr-lambda joined #scheme 2016-05-01T10:31:21Z nanoz joined #scheme 2016-05-01T10:31:44Z wasamasa: bah, who uses r7rs anyways 2016-05-01T10:32:21Z wasamasa: I'm obviously just poking fun of emacs which always had difficulties following along any remotely new language additions (see cc-mode and python.el) 2016-05-01T10:32:53Z ecraven: well, looking at the list of currently-highlighted words, it seems to be mainly what several different people found important at one time or another 2016-05-01T10:33:11Z ecraven: not only macros, not only special forms, but a few functions thrown into the match 2016-05-01T10:39:38Z lokien_ joined #scheme 2016-05-01T10:40:33Z scottj joined #scheme 2016-05-01T10:55:26Z civodul joined #scheme 2016-05-01T11:02:47Z shardz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T11:03:32Z shardz joined #scheme 2016-05-01T11:10:14Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-01T11:14:07Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T11:25:06Z nanoz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T11:47:50Z lexicall joined #scheme 2016-05-01T11:47:51Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T11:54:15Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-01T11:54:50Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-01T11:57:02Z nanoz joined #scheme 2016-05-01T11:59:12Z lokien_ left #scheme 2016-05-01T12:00:34Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T12:03:17Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-01T12:06:09Z pflanze: I'm pondering generating 3D design files (CAD) programmatically. 2016-05-01T12:06:22Z ecraven: pflanze: great :) 2016-05-01T12:06:42Z pflanze: From Scheme. Any idea on what format to use, viewer etc., existing libraries? 2016-05-01T12:07:34Z pflanze: Thing is I've got zero experience with 3D CAD. Instead of dealing with solidworks which is too expensive to own anyway, I want to do my own(tm). 2016-05-01T12:08:00Z ecraven: have you looked at freecad? 2016-05-01T12:08:26Z ecraven: (I just know that by name, never used it for anything) 2016-05-01T12:08:44Z pflanze: I'd love to just write the files in Scheme manually. 2016-05-01T12:09:06Z ecraven: what format are they in? 2016-05-01T12:10:02Z pflanze: That's what I don't know, what they should be in. Depends on what viewer options there are. Blender maybe? 2016-05-01T12:10:15Z ecraven: freecad :D 2016-05-01T12:10:26Z pflanze: ah, you meant as the viewer. fair enough. 2016-05-01T12:10:27Z ecraven: what do you want to do? 2016-05-01T12:10:38Z ecraven: do you want to actually produce something? 2016-05-01T12:11:14Z pflanze: Yes, something with various metal parts (a lock), for now just a concept though. 2016-05-01T12:11:30Z ecraven: then you'll probably need to use some format that the producers understand 2016-05-01T12:11:35Z ecraven: so .blend won't help much 2016-05-01T12:13:07Z pflanze: Yes. (Although I might do both of course, well, if I'm masochistic.) 2016-05-01T12:13:15Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-01T12:13:23Z pflanze: freecad supports STL, BMS, AST, Wavefront it seems. 2016-05-01T12:13:25Z turtleman joined #scheme 2016-05-01T12:13:32Z pflanze: I've got no idea on any of those. 2016-05-01T12:13:33Z ecraven: wavefront obj is simple 2016-05-01T12:13:40Z ecraven: it's a text format 2016-05-01T12:13:45Z ecraven: vertices and faces 2016-05-01T12:13:57Z ecraven: (though it might have extensions that are relevant here) 2016-05-01T12:14:01Z ecraven: no idea about the others 2016-05-01T12:14:10Z ecraven: I've generated .obj before, not very hard :) 2016-05-01T12:14:30Z pflanze: Okay. From Scheme? 2016-05-01T12:15:15Z pflanze reads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavefront_.obj_file 2016-05-01T12:15:52Z pflanze: I've written a Scheme library to generate SVG btw. 2016-05-01T12:19:46Z pflanze: (those modules: https://github.com/pflanze/chj-schemelib/blob/master/2d-shape.scm https://github.com/pflanze/chj-schemelib/blob/master/svg.scm ) 2016-05-01T12:23:36Z pflanze: I should maybe base this on some existing library instead of writing my own 3D abstractions, transpositions/whatever from scratch. 2016-05-01T12:23:43Z pflanze: Game engine? 2016-05-01T12:24:29Z pflanze: Well. Gonna have a closer look at wavefront .obj (perhaps supports all of that?) 2016-05-01T12:25:00Z pflanze: (But then it may be useful to know whether shapes intersect etc. and for that I'll need 3D calculations anyway.) 2016-05-01T12:27:30Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T12:28:20Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T12:30:04Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-01T12:31:49Z ecraven: as far as I know, .obj just has a list of vertices, and a list of faces 2016-05-01T12:31:58Z ecraven: so it's just limited raw data 2016-05-01T12:32:07Z ecraven: if you actually want to do calculations, you need 3d/4d math libraries 2016-05-01T12:32:26Z ecraven: writing a good, fast and portable one for all Schemes would be nice! 2016-05-01T12:32:51Z ecraven: though any Scheme that supports 3d graphics probably already has one.. chicken I seem to remember has a few eggs 2016-05-01T12:54:29Z pflanze: I'm imagining doing things like use such a library with kanren to derive shapes, like "give me the shape that intersects A and B and lines up with C". 2016-05-01T12:54:42Z pflanze: (or shapes£) 2016-05-01T12:54:51Z pflanze: s/£// 2016-05-01T13:00:02Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-01T13:23:42Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-05-01T13:23:53Z annodomini quit (Changing host) 2016-05-01T13:23:53Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-05-01T13:25:41Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-01T13:33:09Z xieyuheng joined #scheme 2016-05-01T13:47:57Z ggole_ joined #scheme 2016-05-01T13:49:08Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-01T13:50:10Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-01T13:51:07Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T13:51:27Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-01T13:56:50Z oleo_ joined #scheme 2016-05-01T13:58:41Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-01T13:59:59Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T14:04:22Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-01T14:08:21Z alyssa joined #scheme 2016-05-01T14:08:46Z alyssa: Is (string-to-list) a sane way to implement a parser? 2016-05-01T14:10:33Z ecraven: alyssa: performance-wise, walking all the string's indices with string-ref is probably faster (no need to cons an extra list) 2016-05-01T14:12:24Z alyssa: ecraven: Alright, thanks :-) 2016-05-01T14:14:38Z lexicall quit (Quit: Ah, my macbook is gonna sleep!) 2016-05-01T14:23:13Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-05-01T14:38:02Z Illusional joined #scheme 2016-05-01T14:38:55Z oleo_ is now known as oleo 2016-05-01T14:47:39Z nanoz quit (Quit: <3) 2016-05-01T15:09:18Z pllx joined #scheme 2016-05-01T15:24:48Z dr-lambda quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-01T15:28:07Z groscoe_ joined #scheme 2016-05-01T15:45:56Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T16:04:18Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-01T16:19:50Z dr-lambda joined #scheme 2016-05-01T16:42:10Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-01T16:45:03Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-01T16:46:56Z pobivan joined #scheme 2016-05-01T16:57:02Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-05-01T17:00:07Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T17:07:15Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-01T17:16:06Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-01T17:18:35Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-01T17:24:05Z pllx joined #scheme 2016-05-01T17:34:36Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-01T17:35:20Z annodomini quit (Quit: annodomini) 2016-05-01T17:45:16Z jim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T17:52:19Z jim joined #scheme 2016-05-01T17:52:43Z jim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T17:53:01Z jim joined #scheme 2016-05-01T17:53:03Z jim quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T17:53:40Z jim joined #scheme 2016-05-01T18:08:24Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-01T18:16:42Z pflanze: alyssa, I'd say yes that parsing the list is a sane, or saner, way. 2016-05-01T18:17:14Z pflanze: Unless you really want to invest your time to make things performant. 2016-05-01T18:17:25Z alyssa: pflanze: ...too late for that :P 2016-05-01T18:17:52Z pflanze: I don't think so, you'll run into parsing text a lot of times, assuming you continue to use Scheme. 2016-05-01T18:18:30Z pflanze: And it's not really worth your time to implement the same functions multiple times for lists, strings, vectors, if it's just for your own use. 2016-05-01T18:19:25Z alyssa: pflanze: hm? 2016-05-01T18:20:31Z pflanze: map, filter, drop, take, split, and so on: you want to use those on vectors and strings when you already have them for lists. 2016-05-01T18:20:40Z JoshS quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T18:20:45Z pflanze: Similarly your own additions. Write them once for lists and be done with it. 2016-05-01T18:20:49Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-01T18:21:02Z pflanze: Also, add lazy lists (streams) to the set of sequences. 2016-05-01T18:21:09Z alyssa: Oh, I see. 2016-05-01T18:21:24Z pflanze: There's a reason why Erlang, Haskell, Arc all went with strings as lists. 2016-05-01T18:21:52Z pflanze: Yes some of them added byte based implementations later on, but do you want to invest your personal time into this? 2016-05-01T18:21:59Z alyssa: pflanze: Isn't there a huge performance hit for large strings, though? 2016-05-01T18:22:05Z alyssa: (or memory hit at least) 2016-05-01T18:26:20Z pflanze: Find out whether you're suffering from it after using the lists. 2016-05-01T18:26:23Z qu1j0t3: +1 2016-05-01T18:27:01Z pflanze: And if the problem is memory, then try streams. Those may well serve you better than strings. 2016-05-01T18:27:11Z alyssa: pflanze: fair enough. I'll probably rewrite this 7 times anyway, so :P 2016-05-01T18:27:18Z pflanze: (So you just want list processing functions that also force their arguments.) 2016-05-01T18:27:33Z pflanze: And spend 10 years on it. 2016-05-01T18:27:51Z zacts joined #scheme 2016-05-01T18:27:59Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T18:31:26Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-01T18:33:15Z pflanze: Said differently: you probably won't get long term satisfaction out of writing string processing functions. 2016-05-01T18:33:37Z pflanze: (or even out of your written string processing functions.) 2016-05-01T18:33:56Z alyssa: Oh, I see. 2016-05-01T18:34:08Z alyssa: pflanze: I think we might be talking about different questions here :p 2016-05-01T18:34:40Z pflanze: ? 2016-05-01T18:38:19Z alyssa: pflanze: I'm writing a parser and wanted to know whether I should operate directly on the string (with string-ref), or convert it to a list of characters and operate on that. 2016-05-01T18:39:30Z pflanze: My answer is that you better operate on the list, because that way you can reuse your functions cleanly. 2016-05-01T18:39:40Z pflanze: As well as being able to stream. 2016-05-01T18:39:56Z pflanze: Your input and output can become easier than reading chunks in strings. 2016-05-01T18:40:07Z pflanze: And your long-term satisfaction will be greater. 2016-05-01T18:40:44Z pflanze: You *can* make it faster with strings, of course, but then why write it in Scheme and not say C or Rust. 2016-05-01T18:41:20Z alyssa: pflanze: Because C holds a special place in my heart but Scheme is too beautiful :P 2016-05-01T18:41:45Z pflanze: There *may* be spots in Scheme programs where optimizing as strings makes sense, but it's not really the general case and it's a pity IMHO that Scheme made vector-based strings the default. 2016-05-01T18:42:47Z alyssa: pflanze: Well, I'll profile this later, as well as seeing if the code is ugly as is. Premature optimization :-) 2016-05-01T18:43:23Z pflanze: Yes, this is premature optimization if you do it just for the satisfaction of some speed demon. 2016-05-01T18:43:58Z pflanze: And if you're stupid as me then you'll realize the amount of uglyness only after having spent years writing stupid string processing functions. 2016-05-01T18:44:36Z alyssa: :-) 2016-05-01T18:54:25Z m0li joined #scheme 2016-05-01T19:05:03Z ecraven: I'd suggest abstracting the interface 2016-05-01T19:05:10Z ecraven: something like (next-char) 2016-05-01T19:05:16Z ecraven: then you can use whatever you want behind that interface 2016-05-01T19:05:25Z ecraven: use lists, if they are too slow, use string-ref directly 2016-05-01T19:05:42Z ecraven: but make sure to not leak anything through the abstraction, or you'll regret it later 2016-05-01T19:13:02Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T19:13:06Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T19:17:57Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-01T19:19:04Z pllx joined #scheme 2016-05-01T19:20:04Z dr-lambda quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T19:20:39Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T19:22:47Z tos-1 joined #scheme 2016-05-01T19:36:34Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-01T19:38:59Z erg joined #scheme 2016-05-01T19:46:31Z _sjs quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-01T19:49:11Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-01T19:51:19Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-05-01T19:51:25Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T19:52:02Z pflanze: ecraven, the problem with that approach is that it's not functional, hence doesn't combine well (forget about parser combinators) 2016-05-01T19:52:34Z pflanze: Unless you implement some kind of string cursors, but then you've got the same allocation overhead as with lists. 2016-05-01T19:53:00Z alyssa: pflanze: Before I dig myself in a hole too deep, is it considered elegant to express loops as tail-recursion (as opposed to a map or fold or something)? 2016-05-01T19:53:25Z wasamasa: alyssa: sure 2016-05-01T19:53:30Z wasamasa: alyssa: this is scheme after all 2016-05-01T19:53:37Z alyssa: hehe ok 2016-05-01T19:53:37Z pflanze: If you can use fold, then it's better to prefer that. 2016-05-01T19:53:49Z alyssa: pflanze: I could use fold, but it's messier that way I think 2016-05-01T19:54:06Z alyssa: (The output is another list, but the logic is too complex for map) 2016-05-01T19:54:38Z alyssa: Very easy to do with tail recursion; the equivalent fold, if nothing else, was a nightmare to debug 2016-05-01T19:54:44Z pflanze: I've written many named let loops, too. 2016-05-01T19:55:09Z pflanze: Nothing particularly wrong with that, just higher level functions make it shorter and clearer usually. 2016-05-01T19:55:42Z pflanze: fold often requires multiple values to make work. But still simpler to read imho. 2016-05-01T19:56:19Z pflanze: There are cases that can't be done with fold (I'm thinking of one pesky one that's even hard to write as a named let, I've run into that case twice; 2016-05-01T19:56:39Z pflanze: going in and out again of a data structure. Still don't have a good grip on that..) 2016-05-01T19:56:43Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-01T19:57:12Z pflanze: Haskell people care more for higher-level abstractions than loops, perhaps a bit too much, Scheme people perhaps a bit too little. 2016-05-01T19:58:55Z alyssa: Hehe 2016-05-01T19:59:28Z alyssa: I'm just starting to "get" Scheme... unfortunately the C is weaved too deep into my soul :P 2016-05-01T20:00:12Z jim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T20:01:04Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-01T20:01:15Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-05-01T20:06:09Z jim joined #scheme 2016-05-01T20:10:04Z ggole_ quit 2016-05-01T20:16:15Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-01T20:21:05Z kuthurium quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-01T20:23:01Z Menche joined #scheme 2016-05-01T20:25:09Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-01T20:29:09Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T20:33:42Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T20:42:07Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-01T20:49:47Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T20:51:21Z dr-lambda joined #scheme 2016-05-01T20:56:08Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I've got types that I've defined with define-record-type but there are some fields that I don't want to have to pass to the constructor over and over again 2016-05-02T00:45:08Z tm512: will I have to redefine/wrap the constructor? 2016-05-02T00:45:33Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T00:46:13Z tm512: and is there a way to copy instances of these types? 2016-05-02T00:48:22Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-02T00:55:16Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-02T00:55:59Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T00:56:37Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T00:59:50Z alyssa left #scheme 2016-05-02T01:03:45Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-02T01:07:01Z evhan: tm512: Redefine/wrap. One common idiom is to put a "%" prefix on the low-level constructor, e.g. (define-record-type point (%make-point x y) ...) 2016-05-02T01:08:38Z tm512: alright, thanks, and for copying? 2016-05-02T01:10:32Z bokr quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-02T01:11:54Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:12:07Z bokr joined #scheme 2016-05-02T01:16:16Z turtleman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T01:18:22Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-02T01:23:51Z bokr1 joined #scheme 2016-05-02T01:24:33Z bokr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:26:42Z lexicall joined #scheme 2016-05-02T01:27:54Z groscoe_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:28:03Z groscoe quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:30:17Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:37:26Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:55:17Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-02T01:56:50Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:57:05Z lexicall quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:58:28Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-02T01:58:29Z mokuso quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T01:58:29Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-02T01:58:59Z jcowan quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T02:01:58Z lexicall joined #scheme 2016-05-02T02:06:17Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-02T02:18:17Z jshjsh joined #scheme 2016-05-02T02:18:25Z JoshS quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-05-02T02:18:32Z jshjsh is now known as JoshS 2016-05-02T02:20:55Z lexicall quit (Quit: Ah, my macbook is gonna sleep!) 2016-05-02T02:23:29Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2016-05-02T02:32:05Z toph joined #scheme 2016-05-02T02:32:47Z toph: is there a scheme repl that lets you cycle command history? 2016-05-02T02:32:55Z toph: tried guile and racket 2016-05-02T02:34:14Z toph: and cursor keys work? 2016-05-02T02:35:33Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T02:38:36Z renopt: toph: rlwrap is a good workaround 2016-05-02T02:38:58Z toph: ty 2016-05-02T02:40:29Z pierpa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T02:40:42Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-02T02:46:24Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2016-05-02T02:48:34Z kol_ joined #scheme 2016-05-02T02:50:06Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-02T02:50:54Z X-Scale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T02:52:00Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2016-05-02T02:52:42Z toph quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-02T02:57:06Z kol_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T02:59:53Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T03:05:34Z annodomini joined #scheme 2016-05-02T03:06:29Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2016-05-02T16:48:44Z pierpa` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T16:51:48Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-02T16:55:36Z JoshS quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T16:59:45Z rjnw joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:00:33Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:01:43Z xieyuheng: foof`: what is the abracadabra in match.scm >_< 2016-05-02T17:02:06Z Riastradh: Heh. 2016-05-02T17:02:13Z Riastradh: xieyuheng: It's magic, of course! 2016-05-02T17:02:58Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:03:18Z Riastradh: It is syntactically a symbol -- not a list, not a literal -- so it can be matched only by a pattern that is also a symbol. A pattern that is anything else -- a list, a literal, &c. -- will fail to match. 2016-05-02T17:03:31Z pierpa` joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:04:10Z Riastradh: match-check-identifier is given a candidate symbol, and *generates* a syntax-rules pattern that uses the candidate as a pattern, and then tries to use it to match abracadabra. If that fails, it falls back to an alternative pattern that really is written with a symbol and hence will match, in case the candidate is not a symbol. 2016-05-02T17:09:12Z pierpa` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T17:09:27Z pierpa` joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:12:31Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:12:33Z xieyuheng: thx Riastradh, but it will take me a while to understand this ~ 2016-05-02T17:15:31Z xieyuheng: and here, I do a little change for error report, and a little change for r6rs :: https://gist.github.com/xieyuheng/eb79229e2a1ac4eac2c6270e5627e6f2 2016-05-02T17:16:07Z xieyuheng: abracadabra occurs there in an example output 2016-05-02T17:16:38Z ozzloy_ is now known as ozzloy 2016-05-02T17:16:48Z ozzloy quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T17:16:48Z ozzloy joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:17:03Z pierpa` is now known as pierpa 2016-05-02T17:24:26Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:29:01Z pierpa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T17:29:16Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:31:30Z wasamasa: ecraven: what do you mean, chez doesn't solve world peace? 2016-05-02T17:32:13Z jcowan: On the contrary, it provides a new entry in the who's-got-the-best-Scheme wars 2016-05-02T17:33:19Z jcowan: When Chez was just a rumor, there could be no real Chez partisans. Now we will begin to see CHEZ RULES OK and CHEZ RULES, GAMBIT DROOLS posts in ALL CAPS 2016-05-02T17:33:40Z TheLemonMan: jcowan, was the 'drop-prefix' directive for import specified in any srfi/rnrs ? 2016-05-02T17:33:55Z jcowan: No, but I'm going to propose it for R7RS-large 2016-05-02T17:34:06Z jethier joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:34:15Z jcowan: by way of a SRFI extending the library syntax 2016-05-02T17:38:03Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:39:18Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T17:46:05Z pepton2 joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:47:03Z tm512` is now known as tm512 2016-05-02T17:49:43Z Menche joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:50:18Z pjb joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:53:27Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:53:55Z DGASAU` joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:55:04Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:57:48Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-02T17:58:38Z oleo_ is now known as oleo 2016-05-02T18:01:21Z ecraven: http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/scheme-benchmark.csv pits a few r6rs schemes against each other on the larceny benchmarks 2016-05-02T18:01:28Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-02T18:13:03Z DGASAU` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T18:13:42Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T18:15:32Z DGASAU` joined #scheme 2016-05-02T18:17:20Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-02T18:23:34Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T18:23:34Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T18:25:31Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-02T18:28:06Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-02T18:31:43Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-02T18:34:23Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2016-05-02T18:49:15Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-02T18:58:33Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T19:01:29Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-02T19:02:23Z Kryo quit (Quit: -) 2016-05-02T19:02:56Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T19:03:40Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-02T19:04:18Z Kryo joined #scheme 2016-05-02T19:11:26Z m0li joined #scheme 2016-05-02T19:11:41Z ecraven: with colours! http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/scheme-benchmark.html 2016-05-02T19:15:24Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I just tried to collect all the procedure identifiers from r7rs and checked which are missing in various schemes 2016-05-03T08:25:05Z andrewvic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T08:25:18Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T08:31:00Z pflanze quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T08:40:26Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-05-03T08:49:44Z rjnw quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-03T08:50:04Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T09:57:34Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-03T10:04:25Z kuribas joined #scheme 2016-05-03T10:09:21Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-03T10:16:51Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T10:17:33Z fds left #scheme 2016-05-03T10:20:14Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-05-03T10:22:36Z DGASAU quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T10:23:08Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-05-03T10:24:52Z jshjsh joined #scheme 2016-05-03T10:26:38Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T10:27:14Z DGASAU` joined #scheme 2016-05-03T10:28:57Z lalex: taylan: they are 2016-05-03T10:29:45Z lalex: taylan: but the only environment that is mutable is the (interaction-environment) 2016-05-03T10:29:50Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T10:29:59Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2016-05-03T10:31:57Z lalex: taylan: but I agree, it's a bit sad that (environment list1 ...) is not mutable. this limits it's usability a little bit. 2016-05-03T10:33:06Z lalex: if going for immutable envs, it might be a nice idea to have (eval ...) return a second value with the mutated environment. 2016-05-03T10:34:02Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-03T10:39:16Z ski: i've noticed that a Matlab function (well, at least ones that come with the system. not sure if user-defined can) can be overloaded on the number of results you expect from it .. 2016-05-03T10:39:42Z lalex: ecraven: sounds interesting, for which purpose or just out of curiosity? 2016-05-03T10:40:28Z ecraven: lalex: to check which functions are missing from various schemes 2016-05-03T10:40:36Z ecraven: I've become interested in benchmarking R7RS schemes 2016-05-03T10:41:27Z ski . o O ( `(receive (res new-env) (eval ...) ...)' ) 2016-05-03T10:41:53Z lalex: ecraven: so you also track wchich libraries those syms are from? 2016-05-03T10:41:56Z lalex: ski: exactly 2016-05-03T10:42:29Z ecraven: lalex: no, not yet 2016-05-03T10:42:43Z lalex: ecraven: so you are checking the default env? 2016-05-03T10:42:46Z ecraven: does R7RS specify what should be imported in the interaction environment? 2016-05-03T10:42:52Z lalex: ecraven: no 2016-05-03T10:42:59Z ecraven: so that might be my problem :) 2016-05-03T10:43:07Z ecraven: I'd probably need an import statement that imports everything then 2016-05-03T10:43:10Z enderby left #scheme 2016-05-03T10:43:17Z lalex: This procedure returns a speci er for a mutable environment 2016-05-03T10:43:17Z lalex: that contains an implementation-de ned set of bindings, 2016-05-03T10:43:17Z lalex: typically a superset of those exported by (scheme 2016-05-03T10:43:19Z lalex: base). 2016-05-03T10:43:34Z ski: the question would be whether one could (sensibly) make something like `case-lambda', but allowing a distinction based on the number of results expected by the continuation 2016-05-03T10:44:06Z ecraven: ski: that sounds.. strange :-/ 2016-05-03T10:44:12Z ski: indeed 2016-05-03T10:45:32Z ski: hm, i think i actually could have used something like that, when i defined a `map' that allowed the procedure argument to yield multiple values 2016-05-03T10:47:07Z ski: (effectively you transpose the argument list, then `apply' the procedure to each element list in that, collecting results into result lists, then finally transposing that before `apply'ing `values') 2016-05-03T10:47:53Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T10:48:11Z ski: (but what if our lists have length zero ? if we knew how many results the continuation expected, we could provide it that many empty lists in this case) 2016-05-03T10:48:40Z ski: (also, one could possibly also use it to inform the mapping procedure of how many results it's expected to generate) 2016-05-03T10:49:46Z ski idly wonders why lalex's `fi's in that quote seem to have been replaced by `^L's 2016-05-03T10:50:04Z ski: (hrm, perhaps unicode ligatures ?) 2016-05-03T10:51:20Z kuribas quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T10:52:49Z ecraven: ^ that 2016-05-03T10:54:26Z ski was the other day pondering a system where calling a(n undelimited) continuation would just involve changing control state to a different stack (assuming non-heap allocated stack), rather than clearing and replacing the current one 2016-05-03T10:55:19Z ski: (so a continuation wouldn't here be a procedure that when invoked ignored its current continuation) 2016-05-03T10:57:24Z ski: however, one'd need some kind of uniqueness guarantees. possibly with a way around that, that involved copying 2016-05-03T10:57:49Z ski: (quite probably someone has already thought about this kind of thing, though) 2016-05-03T11:05:07Z lalex: hmm, about coding style. where is indentation of 2 spaces and where is alignment with the first symbol of a form to be used? I currently indent 2 spaces in forms that usually expect a body of multiple expressions - like lambda or when. but with regular function calls, should one implement 1 or 2 spaces? 2016-05-03T11:06:51Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-03T11:07:54Z andrewvic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T11:08:50Z z0d: lalex: this might help: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt 2016-05-03T11:10:19Z kuribas joined #scheme 2016-05-03T11:11:02Z taylan: lalex: right, (interaction-environment) is mutable, but it's a singleton... 2016-05-03T11:12:13Z lalex: taylan: hmm, did not expect that 2016-05-03T11:12:45Z taylan: well, let me double-check 2016-05-03T11:13:21Z lalex: taylan: hmm, one could understand the description in both ways 2016-05-03T11:13:29Z taylan: indeed, I'm not so sure now 2016-05-03T11:14:16Z lalex: it's a big difference :) 2016-05-03T11:14:23Z taylan: jcowan: ping. do you know whether R7RS (interaction-environment) is supposed to return a singleton, or create new environments? or what implementations do with it in practice? 2016-05-03T11:14:50Z lalex: from the naming, I would agree with you on a singleton 2016-05-03T11:14:58Z lalex: "The" interaction environment 2016-05-03T11:15:04Z lalex: not "a" interaction environment 2016-05-03T11:15:35Z lalex: but maybe it's "some" interaction environment :) 2016-05-03T11:16:11Z lalex: z0d: thanks, did know that already. but I will dig a bit deeper into it then (I just skimmed it) 2016-05-03T11:19:56Z lalex: z0d: hmm, that text does not go into great depth. it just says the indentation varies, depending on what kind of form is meant by the first symbol of a form. 2016-05-03T11:21:59Z adu joined #scheme 2016-05-03T11:24:23Z lalex: judging from most of the code I read in function applications you always indent at least 2 chars after a line break. 2016-05-03T11:25:09Z ski . o O ( ,, ) 2016-05-03T11:26:21Z ski: (put 'and-let* 'scheme-indent-function 1) 2016-05-03T11:26:22Z ski: (put 'loop 'scheme-indent-function 'scheme-let-indent) 2016-05-03T11:26:34Z lalex: hmm 2016-05-03T11:27:30Z ski: (that latter was for foof-loop) 2016-05-03T11:28:09Z ski: i think 2016-05-03T11:28:13Z ski: ((foo x y) 2016-05-03T11:28:24Z ski: (bar z) 2016-05-03T11:28:28Z ski: t) 2016-05-03T11:28:29Z ski: is ok 2016-05-03T11:28:43Z lalex: (foo 2016-05-03T11:28:47Z lalex: bar 2016-05-03T11:28:53Z lalex: baz) not ? 2016-05-03T11:28:56Z ski: (also if the operator is a `lambda' form) 2016-05-03T11:29:47Z ski wouldn't write in the way suggested by lalex, unless `foo' was some syntax, not just an identifier referencing a procedure 2016-05-03T11:31:03Z lalex: hmmm 2016-05-03T11:36:02Z lalex: damn, vim seems to indent 2 spaces regardless of special form vs. procedure call. 2016-05-03T11:39:03Z xoui joined #scheme 2016-05-03T11:44:08Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2016-05-03T11:45:21Z jshjsh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T11:49:15Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2016-05-03T11:49:15Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-03T11:49:15Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-03T11:49:40Z xoui: Hi all. Despite googling, I can't figure out how to convert a fixnum to a flonum. any pointers? 2016-05-03T11:55:02Z Kooda: exact->inexact ? 2016-05-03T11:55:17Z Kooda: (or just inexact for R7RS iirc) 2016-05-03T11:57:02Z xoui: aha! thanks a lot Kooda :) 2016-05-03T11:59:40Z Kooda: No problem :) 2016-05-03T11:59:47Z ggole joined #scheme 2016-05-03T12:01:16Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T12:02:24Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-03T12:10:32Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-03T12:25:04Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-03T12:29:51Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-05-03T12:29:53Z groscoe_ joined #scheme 2016-05-03T12:35:23Z ecraven: Kooda: indeed, (inexact 5) 2016-05-03T12:36:17Z ecraven: is the syntax-rules in R7RS different than the one in R5RS? the `define-values' form shown in the appendix doesn't work on MIT/GNU Scheme (which might be the fault of the macro expander, not R7RS) 2016-05-03T12:42:00Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-03T12:55:32Z elflng joined #scheme 2016-05-03T12:55:49Z lalex: ecraven: checked errata of r7rs? 2016-05-03T12:56:10Z ecraven: lalex: ah, no, thanks, I'll do that 2016-05-03T13:03:58Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T13:05:44Z mach joined #scheme 2016-05-03T13:11:12Z lalex: ecraven: not sure if there was something about define-values, but I stumbled once across some weirdness in the syntax which I found later in the errata 2016-05-03T13:12:09Z ecraven: will there be a corrected version of the R7RS document? 2016-05-03T13:13:34Z xoui quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T13:15:23Z lalex: I wonder too, maybe when they are done with R7RS 'large' and are sure there are no bigger issues in the document anymore. 2016-05-03T13:17:14Z foof`: ecraven: r[67]rs require internal defines to behave as `letrec*'. in r5rs this was not required, though most implementations did this anyway - MIT being one of the few exceptions. 2016-05-03T13:17:48Z foof`: (there were also some extensions to syntax-rules in r7rs but they have nothing to do with this issue) 2016-05-03T13:18:04Z ecraven: foof`: hm.. the problem seems to be the expansion of successive DEFINEs 2016-05-03T13:20:02Z foof`: ecraven: the problem is we first bind all values to a dummy var0, then define the explicitly listed values from that. this is legal with `letrec*', but illegal in the r5rs `letrec' semantics for internal defines. 2016-05-03T13:20:25Z foof`: in other words, you can't portably define `define-values' in r5rs. 2016-05-03T13:21:38Z foof`: c.f. R5RS 5.2.2: "Just as for the equivalent 'letrec' expression, it must be possible to evaluate each of every internal definition in a without assigning or referring to the value of any being defined." 2016-05-03T13:21:53Z ecraven: well, the error I get is different, it is: Missing ellipsis in expansion. 2016-05-03T13:22:18Z ecraven: this seems to be related to the expansion of (define var1 ...) in the third clause 2016-05-03T13:25:28Z foof`: oh, it also includes the SRFI-46 extensions, allowing a dotted tail after an ellipsis 2016-05-03T13:25:48Z foof`: should work if you comment out the clause for: (define-values (var0 var1 ... . varn) expr) 2016-05-03T13:26:27Z foof`: well, should expand anyway, may still barf on illegal letrec behavior 2016-05-03T13:26:44Z ecraven: ah, ok, thanks for that hint! 2016-05-03T13:26:47Z ecraven: I'll see whether that works 2016-05-03T13:27:01Z ecraven: I also got an alternate version (based on Mosh's) to work 2016-05-03T13:27:54Z ecraven: probably not complete and error-free, but (define-values (a b c) (values 1 2 3)) works :) http://paste.lisp.org/display/315258 2016-05-03T13:28:16Z ecraven: this is mainly to get my personal MIT/GNU Scheme to mostly emulate an R7RS Scheme (except the library system) 2016-05-03T13:30:21Z foof`: yeah, after that mosh version is basically the ref version without handling the dotted tail case in define-values 2016-05-03T13:30:46Z m0li quit (Quit: bye.) 2016-05-03T13:30:48Z ecraven: is the dotted tail to get a list of the superfluous values? 2016-05-03T13:30:58Z ecraven: well, multiple values is a sore point in mit-scheme anyway :-/ 2016-05-03T13:31:06Z ecraven: (values 1) does *not* return 1 :-/ 2016-05-03T13:32:34Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T13:33:30Z foof`: yeah, (define-values (kar . kdr) (list 1 2 3)) binds kdr to '(2 3) 2016-05-03T13:33:36Z mejja: values is a wart on the otherwise clean manuscript of scheme ;-) 2016-05-03T13:34:02Z ecraven: mejja: in MIT/Scheme it's more of a gout, not just a wart 2016-05-03T13:34:16Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-03T13:34:23Z ecraven: hm.. maybe not gout, not sure what the right word is 2016-05-03T13:34:43Z ecraven: goiter :) 2016-05-03T13:35:21Z mejja: there is no use case for values.. 2016-05-03T13:35:52Z lalex: Lua got multiple return values neatly packed into the language, without special syntax. I wonder how useful schemes multiple return values are, if the syntax is so cumbersome 2016-05-03T13:36:05Z LeoNerd: Ohman ... values.. 2016-05-03T13:36:18Z LeoNerd: I still haven't worked out how to implement that in my toy scheme yet. I have everything else... even call/cc 2016-05-03T13:36:43Z lalex: I would just return a list of values and unpack it :) 2016-05-03T13:37:05Z ecraven: mejja: getting quotient and remainder from an integer division? not a use case? 2016-05-03T13:37:12Z mejja: No. 2016-05-03T13:37:40Z ecraven: foof`: fyi, removing that clause (with ... .) gives the same error message. I think it's related to something else. I'll mail it to the mailing list, maybe someone is interested :) 2016-05-03T13:38:32Z lalex: LeoNerd: seriously, does the definition of (values ...) need more than just passing a list of values to the continuation which is unpacked by the *-values procedures? 2016-05-03T13:39:04Z ecraven: mejja: are you against returning multiple values in general? 2016-05-03T13:39:10Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T13:39:19Z LeoNerd: Notsure... it's a multivalue return thing that appears almost nowhere else in scheme 2016-05-03T13:39:22Z ecraven: just for fun, what if (+ (values 1 2 3)) evaluated to 6? 2016-05-03T13:39:25Z oleo joined #scheme 2016-05-03T13:39:47Z mejja: Don't return. Continue! 2016-05-03T13:40:46Z LeoNerd: ecraven: Yah.. it's things like that which make values reeeeally weird 2016-05-03T13:41:02Z LeoNerd: If you want mvreturn in a language, put it -everywhere- 2016-05-03T13:41:22Z ggole: Eh, just have tuples 2016-05-03T13:41:43Z LeoNerd: Yah.. given as scheme already has lists as a really core basic concept, I don't know why it couldn't just be done using those 2016-05-03T13:41:49Z LeoNerd: "mvreturn" is just returning a list 2016-05-03T13:41:53Z ecraven: efficiency! :p 2016-05-03T13:42:04Z LeoNerd: All you'd need is a let variant that unpacked the returned list 2016-05-03T13:42:11Z ggole: Tuples can be compiled efficiently 2016-05-03T13:42:17Z ggole: (With a little trickery.) 2016-05-03T13:42:35Z LeoNerd: (define (things) (1 2 3)) (let-list ((one two three) (things)) ...) 2016-05-03T13:43:00Z lalex: (values require special define-values and let-values anyways) 2016-05-03T13:43:30Z ecraven: LeoNerd: I don't know what it is, but there must be a reason this wasn't chosen, but MV instead 2016-05-03T13:44:01Z ecraven: even CLs multiple values (with the implicit ignoring of superfluous ones) seems more useful :-/ 2016-05-03T13:46:22Z ggole: It might be that the continuation model, which trivially extends returning one value to returning several, made it appear more attractive than it really is 2016-05-03T13:47:22Z grettke quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-03T13:47:36Z ecraven: has there been any discussion on removing them from the language in the last few reports? 2016-05-03T13:47:56Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-03T13:49:53Z grettke quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-03T13:55:43Z m0li joined #scheme 2016-05-03T13:56:18Z jcowan: taylan: pong: (interaction-environment) is meant to return a singleton, the environment of the REPL loosely speaking. 2016-05-03T13:57:09Z ecraven: jcowan: is it meant to return the actual environment of the repl, or a new, pristine one without any extra bindings? 2016-05-03T13:58:06Z jcowan: The actual. 2016-05-03T13:58:27Z jcowan: It is *the* interaction environment, not *an* interaction environment. 2016-05-03T13:59:05Z taylan: lalex: ^ 2016-05-03T13:59:18Z ecraven: jcowan: ah, I misunderstood this, thanks :) 2016-05-03T13:59:19Z taylan: jcowan: thanks, my interpretation was correct then 2016-05-03T13:59:22Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-03T13:59:48Z jcowan: of course, in compiled code there is no telling what it returns 2016-05-03T14:00:14Z ecraven: well, in compiled code without a repl, I probably shouldn't use it :) 2016-05-03T14:01:20Z jcowan: I have a pre-SRFI for first-class mutable environments 2016-05-03T14:02:23Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-03T14:05:20Z greatscottttt quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T14:21:44Z xieyuheng: foof`: this is a (over) simplified the oleg simple match :: https://www.refheap.com/118603 2016-05-03T14:21:45Z xieyuheng: which is made more like foof match 2016-05-03T14:21:47Z xieyuheng: I found that I am only using this subset of foof match 2016-05-03T14:21:48Z xieyuheng: and figured you add a ` at then end of you nick, to make yourself less noticed 2016-05-03T14:29:19Z ski: LeoNerd : .. and multiple (alternative) continuations ? 2016-05-03T14:29:51Z LeoNerd: ski: Mm? 2016-05-03T14:34:18Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-03T14:34:39Z ski . o O ( "Multi-return Function Call" by Olin Shivers,David Fisher in 2004-09,2006-0[79] at ) 2016-05-03T14:36:39Z ski . o O ( "multi-continuation procedure call examples" by Riastradh in 2006(?) at ) 2016-05-03T14:37:47Z ski . o O ( "Multi-return Function Call example" by ski in 2009-11-29 at ) 2016-05-03T14:38:41Z ski: LeoNerd : the idea is to offer a choice of different return paths (iirc Fortran had something like this ?) 2016-05-03T14:39:40Z ski: LeoNerd : coneptually, we're returning a value in a sum type. however often the caller would immediately do a `case'/`match' analysis on this, handling the alternative return forms differently 2016-05-03T14:40:42Z ski: LeoNerd : it may be that in some of these branches, we directly return the value alternative we got, while in other branches, we do some more substantiate computation 2016-05-03T14:41:01Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-03T14:41:38Z ski: LeoNerd : so, the idea is : instead of letting the procedure materialize a value in the sum type (a tag, plus perhaps some extra datums), we pass the branches from the `case' analysis (implicitly) as alternative continuations to the procedure 2016-05-03T14:42:27Z ski: LeoNerd : and it can now directly call the branch it wants (by syntactically emitting an alternative selection / injection, into the sum type) 2016-05-03T14:43:14Z ski: LeoNerd : in the case where a branch doesn't modify the value, this now becomes a *semi*-tail-call (only semi, because whether it'll be a tail-call or not depends on which alternative continuation is chosen) 2016-05-03T14:44:50Z ski: (when one alternative continuation is selected, the (prefixes corresponding to the) others will be scrapped, unless we've captured continuations somehow (`call/cc' or `shift' or similar)) 2016-05-03T15:01:14Z groscoe__ joined #scheme 2016-05-03T15:01:32Z zhcy1 joined #scheme 2016-05-03T15:02:34Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-03T15:03:07Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T15:03:08Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-05-03T15:04:18Z zhcy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T15:05:12Z zhcy joined #scheme 2016-05-03T15:06:17Z zhcy1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T15:08:58Z oleo_ joined #scheme 2016-05-03T15:11:18Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T15:11:21Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-03T15:22:53Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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(5/7) 2016-05-03T17:16:51Z ecraven: also, are all floating-point literals implicitly inexact? 2016-05-03T17:19:24Z ecraven: rudybot: #e3.6 2016-05-03T17:19:25Z rudybot: ecraven: your sandbox is ready 2016-05-03T17:19:25Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: 18/5 2016-05-03T17:19:30Z ecraven: nice :) 2016-05-03T17:20:10Z noethics joined #scheme 2016-05-03T17:20:32Z noethics: what dialect of scheme do i learn 2016-05-03T17:21:39Z ecraven: noethics: what do you want to achieve? 2016-05-03T17:22:56Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:25:06Z noethics: ecraven, i want to be considered an elite scheme user 2016-05-03T17:25:40Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-03T17:29:49Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-03T17:30:52Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:31:33Z noethics: what's the consensus on chez scheme in the scheme community 2016-05-03T17:33:11Z ecraven: noethics: it's interesting 2016-05-03T17:33:22Z ecraven: it seems to be one of the faster ones 2016-05-03T17:34:08Z noethics: ecraven, if you had to give parallels between C++ of schemes and scheme of schemes, what would they be? 2016-05-03T17:34:26Z jcowan: Eh? What does that mean? 2016-05-03T17:34:44Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-05-03T17:35:24Z emmanueloga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:35:24Z mjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:35:25Z Guest33283_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:35:25Z ggherdov quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:36:19Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-03T17:36:53Z noethics: jcowan, so, say you take the pool of imperative languages. and the pool of schemes. and you were given the task to label each scheme with the imperative language most similar to it. whatever metrics you choose to use are up to you 2016-05-03T17:38:27Z mjl joined #scheme 2016-05-03T17:38:33Z manumanumanu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:39:01Z ecraven: noethics: on a certain level, all schemes (and racket) are rather similar. most knowledge will transfer between them 2016-05-03T17:39:10Z ecraven: ideally, R7RS (large) will make things even better 2016-05-03T17:39:37Z ecraven: decide on which platforms you want, whether you want an integrated gui, what kind of program you want to write 2016-05-03T17:39:46Z noethics: the part that i'm really unfamiliar with is the meta programming aspect of scheme 2016-05-03T17:39:48Z ggherdov joined #scheme 2016-05-03T17:39:52Z ecraven: then pick one of the larger schemes that fulfills your requirements 2016-05-03T17:39:52Z Guest33283_ joined #scheme 2016-05-03T17:39:56Z noethics: chez scheme seems to take that to a new level :P 2016-05-03T17:40:04Z emmanueloga joined #scheme 2016-05-03T17:40:05Z ecraven: noethics: why specifically chez? 2016-05-03T17:40:14Z wasamasa: because chez solves world hunger 2016-05-03T17:40:29Z noethics: i mean, it takes it to a new level where i'm even more uncomfortable 2016-05-03T17:40:34Z noethics: which makes me want to know it 2016-05-03T17:40:51Z ecraven: noethics: what do you mean with "to a new level"? what is more "meta" about chez than about other schemes? 2016-05-03T17:40:54Z ecraven: wasamasa: I knew it! 2016-05-03T17:41:27Z noethics: i guess it's not _more_ meta, it just has more powerful result of meta programming. to my understand 2016-05-03T17:41:29Z noethics: ing* 2016-05-03T17:41:35Z jcowan: Okay, in that case I would say that Stalin is the C++ of Scheme: ultrafast execution, hopelessly slow compilation, no debugging facilities to speak of, non-functional community. 2016-05-03T17:41:50Z wasamasa: noethics: wat 2016-05-03T17:41:53Z ecraven: noethics: where did you get that understanding? 2016-05-03T17:41:53Z ecraven: jcowan: is there any community? 2016-05-03T17:42:01Z noethics: the incremental compilation 2016-05-03T17:42:05Z wasamasa: lol 2016-05-03T17:42:10Z noethics: to machine code 2016-05-03T17:42:13Z jcowan: Not even a mailing list, and the only "web site" just contains a tarball. 2016-05-03T17:42:15Z ecraven: do other schemes not have that? 2016-05-03T17:42:20Z noethics: i didn't think so? 2016-05-03T17:42:22Z noethics: do they? 2016-05-03T17:42:23Z ecraven: jcowan: I thought it was abandoned? 2016-05-03T17:42:32Z noethics: the only things i've seen similar are like. 2016-05-03T17:42:34Z wasamasa: well, everything supporting interpreter semantics in compiled code goes 2016-05-03T17:42:40Z noethics: metaocaml, template haskell, c++ 2016-05-03T17:42:58Z jcowan: Not by its users, some of whom I have talked to, and all of whom seem to have the "*** you, Jack, I'm all right" attitude to Stalin 2016-05-03T17:43:16Z ecraven: I'm not sure I understand, what does compilation and machine code have to do with meta programming? 2016-05-03T17:43:22Z noethics: i guess nothing 2016-05-03T17:43:30Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2016-05-03T17:43:38Z ecraven: I don't think chez supports "meta" (whatever that means) more than other schemes 2016-05-03T17:43:46Z ecraven: it's not the only one to use psyntax (the macro expander) 2016-05-03T17:43:52Z wasamasa wonders whether some people get their technology news from /g/ only 2016-05-03T17:43:58Z noethics: lol 2016-05-03T17:44:06Z ecraven: jcowan: is anyone still developing it or even patching things? 2016-05-03T17:44:11Z noethics: i'm very unfamiliar with schemes 2016-05-03T17:44:13Z ecraven: jcowan: did you succeed in building it yesterday? 2016-05-03T17:44:17Z wasamasa: noethics: is that a yes? 2016-05-03T17:44:19Z jcowan: Yes, everyone has their own patches, even me, but there is nowhere to send them 2016-05-03T17:44:23Z noethics: wasamasa, no 2016-05-03T17:44:30Z wasamasa: noethics: good! 2016-05-03T17:44:31Z noethics: someone in the go channel recommended it 2016-05-03T17:44:34Z jcowan: I built it in -m32 mode 2016-05-03T17:44:35Z noethics: cause i said i wanted to learn scheme 2016-05-03T17:44:41Z wasamasa: lol 2016-05-03T17:45:14Z wasamasa: ecraven: clearly, owning scheme.com makes your scheme implementation more meta! 2016-05-03T17:45:20Z noethics: lol 2016-05-03T17:45:40Z wasamasa: that's about the only selling point 2016-05-03T17:45:41Z noethics: okay, we get it. you guys use less hip, more obscure schemes 2016-05-03T17:45:45Z noethics: what are they? 2016-05-03T17:45:48Z wasamasa: it's a commercial-grade scheme implementation 2016-05-03T17:46:14Z wasamasa: there has been little info on it so far because of that, so it going open-source was big news and since then #scheme has been noisy 2016-05-03T17:46:37Z ecraven: wasamasa: well, to be fair, in all the benchmarks I tried so far, it was the fastest 2016-05-03T17:46:38Z wasamasa: how good it actually is has yet to be determined once the hype dies down (and it compiles properly, damnit) 2016-05-03T17:46:39Z noethics: i see 2016-05-03T17:46:40Z jcowan: In Schemeworld, more obscure = more hip 2016-05-03T17:46:45Z noethics: jcowan, i know 2016-05-03T17:46:51Z noethics: i was being cute 2016-05-03T17:46:52Z noethics: <3 2016-05-03T17:47:01Z ecraven: jcowan: ah, that's a good idea, that might help 2016-05-03T17:48:01Z ecraven: jcowan: if it isn't too much of a bother, *how* did you build it in 32 bit mode? 2016-05-03T17:48:11Z jcowan: I'm trying to put together a doc about it 2016-05-03T17:48:18Z noethics: who would name their language stalin 2016-05-03T17:48:24Z noethics: lmao, it's so ridiculous 2016-05-03T17:48:25Z ecraven: jcowan: that would be great! 2016-05-03T17:48:28Z jcowan: it unpacks its private copy of gc6.8, then *deletes* it after building 2016-05-03T17:48:41Z jcowan: noethics: Stalin optimizes your code -- brutally. 2016-05-03T17:48:47Z noethics: :) 2016-05-03T17:49:05Z wasamasa: who names their software a killer 2016-05-03T17:49:20Z noethics: for freedom 2016-05-03T17:49:53Z wasamasa: and then becomes a major browser vendor 2016-05-03T17:49:58Z pjb joined #scheme 2016-05-03T17:50:47Z noethics: jcowan, so what's the scheme of schemes? 2016-05-03T17:50:49Z ecraven: ah, never knew it meant Mosaic Killer 2016-05-03T17:51:06Z wasamasa: I always thought it's a cute wordplay on gojira 2016-05-03T17:51:12Z jcowan: That too 2016-05-03T17:51:17Z wasamasa: and then I read about the origins of browsers :D 2016-05-03T17:52:36Z manumanumanu joined #scheme 2016-05-03T17:57:58Z noethics: ah this thing 2016-05-03T17:57:59Z noethics: https://github.com/nanopass/nanopass-framework-scheme/ 2016-05-03T17:58:36Z noethics: that should be the future of scheme, realistically, right? 2016-05-03T17:59:46Z cojy: the future how? 2016-05-03T18:00:08Z noethics: is there some better framework to use for making scheme compilers? 2016-05-03T18:00:21Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-03T18:00:24Z cojy: well this is ojust one option and a few use it 2016-05-03T18:00:26Z cojy: its a nice framework 2016-05-03T18:00:36Z cojy: but there is no best that everyone should adopt 2016-05-03T18:00:42Z Riastradh: Scheme ---LLVM---> JavaScript, of course, is the future. 2016-05-03T18:00:48Z noethics: lol 2016-05-03T18:00:57Z noethics: scheme -> webassembly, maybe 2016-05-03T18:01:07Z cojy: sad aprt is that is the only hting people care about 2016-05-03T18:01:13Z cojy: noethics: same thing 2016-05-03T18:01:13Z noethics: webassembly is already perfect for all lisps 2016-05-03T18:01:33Z noethics: cojy, how? 2016-05-03T18:01:34Z cojy: noethics: sadly its not :( 2016-05-03T18:01:39Z noethics: how not? 2016-05-03T18:01:45Z cojy: noethics: it's just a different syntax for asm.js 2016-05-03T18:01:49Z noethics: no it's not 2016-05-03T18:01:54Z cojy: at the moment it is 2016-05-03T18:01:55Z cojy: and 2016-05-03T18:02:01Z cojy: you have no control over the stack, no tail calls or jumps 2016-05-03T18:02:07Z cojy: you can't really do an efficient scheme in it 2016-05-03T18:02:24Z noethics: i'm not sure what you're trying to say 2016-05-03T18:02:29Z noethics: it's not a full fledged scheme, true 2016-05-03T18:02:43Z cojy: im saying you can't make an efficient implementation of scheme using it as a target 2016-05-03T18:02:44Z noethics: but the use of sexps and ast to represent a program is good for lisp programming imo 2016-05-03T18:02:45Z cojy: it's not possible 2016-05-03T18:02:45Z Riastradh: Sure you can, cojy: trampolines. 2016-05-03T18:02:57Z cojy: sure but it's slow 2016-05-03T18:03:24Z ecraven: cojy: last I checked, JS engines were rather swift 2016-05-03T18:03:33Z noethics: they are 2016-05-03T18:03:39Z noethics: but js sucks 2016-05-03T18:03:41Z Riastradh: ecraven: No, that's the Apple thing! 2016-05-03T18:03:52Z cojy: ecraven: yes i am very well versed in them and compiling ot js 2016-05-03T18:04:27Z wasamasa: noethics: loads of things use s-expressions to represent their AST 2016-05-03T18:04:36Z noethics: wasamasa, webassembly IS that 2016-05-03T18:04:40Z noethics: a direct representation 2016-05-03T18:04:44Z noethics: not an IR 2016-05-03T18:04:52Z cojy: webasembly doesn't use s-expressions to rperesent AST 2016-05-03T18:05:05Z cojy: they have an s-expression to binary encoded ast (which is not s-exp[ressions or anything like them) 2016-05-03T18:05:07Z wasamasa: noethics: it's like saying that plain text makes for a great carrier when writing docs 2016-05-03T18:05:08Z wasamasa: nobody cares as nearly everything does that 2016-05-03T18:05:08Z cojy: tool 2016-05-03T18:05:23Z wasamasa: it has stopped being a selling point and became a nobrainer 2016-05-03T18:05:26Z noethics: not sure what you mean 2016-05-03T18:05:52Z ecraven: Riastradh: does the MIT/GNU compiler handle multiple values in a special way? that (values 3) is not 3 is really a bit ... surprising :-/ 2016-05-03T18:06:06Z Riastradh: ecraven: Nope! 2016-05-03T18:06:14Z Riastradh: (values x y z) = (lambda (k) (k x y z)) 2016-05-03T18:06:27Z cojy: noethics: there's only a tool for compiling an s-expression based front-end syntax to the binary format, when decoded is nothing like s-expressions 2016-05-03T18:07:09Z cojy: but that doesn't mean much since almost no schemes use normal s-expressions for an AST either anymore, they use syntax objects 2016-05-03T18:07:33Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-03T18:07:42Z ecraven: Riastradh: has this never been a problem? I'm trying to run the larceny r7rs benchmarks (with some success), but that values idiosynchrasy doesn't make things better :-/ 2016-05-03T18:08:56Z ecraven: hm.. compiled MIT/GNU Scheme seems to be about as fast as larceny, much faster than the other R7RS Schemes... based on these totally random benchmarks :) 2016-05-03T18:08:58Z noethics: cojy, https://github.com/WebAssembly/spec/tree/master/ml-proto#abstract-syntax-and-kernel-syntax 2016-05-03T18:08:58Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/jaNZ7z5kms 2016-05-03T18:08:58Z noethics: ? 2016-05-03T18:09:07Z Riastradh: ecraven: It is a problem. 2016-05-03T18:09:11Z Nycatelos left #scheme 2016-05-03T18:09:32Z ecraven: Riastradh: was it never enough of a problem to actually change? or would it be much more complicated than I'm imagining? 2016-05-03T18:10:13Z cojy: noethics: did you look at the code? it's explicit ADT variants for each syntax class, not s-expressions 2016-05-03T18:10:25Z cojy: the onyl thing that is s-expression is that text grammar in the readme 2016-05-03T18:10:48Z noethics: um 2016-05-03T18:10:49Z noethics: https://github.com/WebAssembly/spec/blob/master/ml-proto/spec/kernel.ml 2016-05-03T18:10:52Z noethics: idk m8 2016-05-03T18:11:08Z noethics: https://github.com/WebAssembly/spec/blob/master/ml-proto/spec/kernel.ml#L77-L103 2016-05-03T18:11:09Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/Fa9FSvnESk 2016-05-03T18:11:13Z noethics: those look like ast nodes 2016-05-03T18:11:17Z pepton2 joined #scheme 2016-05-03T18:11:29Z cojy: noethics: yes those are not s-expressions 2016-05-03T18:11:45Z noethics: they're encoded as s-expressions, i thought 2016-05-03T18:11:50Z cojy: no 2016-05-03T18:11:58Z cojy: they are encoded in a binary format 2016-05-03T18:12:20Z noethics: a binary s-expression format 2016-05-03T18:12:21Z noethics: lol 2016-05-03T18:12:24Z cojy: no 2016-05-03T18:12:28Z cojy: its not a binary s-expression format 2016-05-03T18:12:34Z noethics: what is it 2016-05-03T18:13:02Z cojy: i'm not sure you know what an s-expression is if you can't tell it's not from those datatypes 2016-05-03T18:13:17Z noethics: those datatypes are ast nodes, right? 2016-05-03T18:13:22Z cojy: yes 2016-05-03T18:13:35Z noethics: the nodes themselves, to my knowledge, are s-expressons. they map to expressions 2016-05-03T18:13:40Z cojy: no they aren't 2016-05-03T18:13:45Z cojy: an s-expression ast is only lists and constants 2016-05-03T18:13:47Z noethics: a `block` is encoded as an s-expression 2016-05-03T18:13:51Z cojy: no it is not 2016-05-03T18:13:57Z cojy: it is encoded as block 2016-05-03T18:13:59Z Riastradh: ecraven: Kinda complicated to change. Would require about a week of full-time work by someone familiar with the system, I expect. 2016-05-03T18:14:01Z cojy: with a specific binary code for it 2016-05-03T18:14:49Z ecraven: Riastradh: ok, that's quite a lot :-/ 2016-05-03T18:15:01Z ecraven: when I end up filthy rich, I'll sponsor it :-/ 2016-05-03T18:15:15Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-03T18:15:38Z noethics: https://github.com/WebAssembly/design/blob/master/AstSemantics.md#order-of-evaluation 2016-05-03T18:15:39Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/3brWvrxTPZ 2016-05-03T18:15:39Z noethics: lol 2016-05-03T18:20:06Z noethics: cojy, yeah i think you're just flat out wrong 2016-05-03T18:20:19Z noethics: first line of the design doc 2016-05-03T18:20:21Z noethics: `WebAssembly code is represented as an Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) where each node represents an expression. ` 2016-05-03T18:20:39Z cojy: i'm sorry that you don't understand what an s-expression is, but i'm not wrong 2016-05-03T18:20:47Z noethics: cojy, :/ 2016-05-03T18:21:37Z noethics: cojy, can you please provide some evidence otherwise? 2016-05-03T18:21:40Z noethics: `Each function body consists of a list of expressions` 2016-05-03T18:21:46Z noethics: seems like sexps to me 2016-05-03T18:21:58Z ecraven: noethics: that sentence describes just about *any* format 2016-05-03T18:22:15Z noethics: not really 2016-05-03T18:22:36Z noethics: expressions model computation. most formats just model data 2016-05-03T18:22:53Z ecraven: and expressions are not data? 2016-05-03T18:23:18Z noethics: all expressions are data but not all data are expressions 2016-05-03T18:23:20Z noethics: how about that 2016-05-03T18:27:49Z cojy: noethics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression 2016-05-03T18:27:57Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-03T18:28:05Z cojy: literally all it is: atoms and pairs 2016-05-03T18:28:12Z noethics: cojy, that's not literally all it says 2016-05-03T18:28:15Z cojy: if you go beyond that it is no longer s-expressions 2016-05-03T18:28:20Z noethics: In computing, s-expressions, sexprs or sexps (for "symbolic expression") are a notation for nested list (tree-structured) data, invented for and popularized by the programming language Lisp, which uses them for source code as well as data. 2016-05-03T18:28:28Z noethics: we need not go beyond tha. 2016-05-03T18:29:12Z noethics: "WebAssembly code is represented as an Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) where each node represents an expression. Each function body consists of a list of expressions. All expressions and operators are typed, with no implicit conversions or overloading rules." 2016-05-03T18:29:23Z noethics: first para @ https://github.com/WebAssembly/design/blob/master/AstSemantics.md 2016-05-03T18:29:24Z cojy: you can stop pretending like you know what you are talkinga bout now it is just getting irritating 2016-05-03T18:29:32Z noethics: lol 2016-05-03T18:29:39Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2016-05-03T18:29:44Z jshjsh joined #scheme 2016-05-03T18:29:50Z ecraven: noethics: except for the word "list" in both of these, there's not much of a similarity 2016-05-03T18:30:00Z noethics: "list of expressions" 2016-05-03T18:30:03Z noethics: that's super explicit. 2016-05-03T18:30:32Z noethics: cojy, you haven't given a single fact otherwise 2016-05-03T18:30:41Z noethics: so whatever m8. you can just keep saying i don't know what a sexp is 2016-05-03T18:30:44Z cojy: no s-expresisons are s-expressions, these are not 2016-05-03T18:30:51Z cojy: it's really simple 2016-05-03T18:31:48Z ecraven: noethics: notice the words "a notation" 2016-05-03T18:31:56Z ecraven: so it's not only about "list of expressions" 2016-05-03T18:32:03Z cojy: it's really weird as someone who doesn't even know scheme you are trying to tell people who have been programmign in lisp and scheme for years and have written parsers and syntax transformers them, that you know what an s-expression is and they dont 2016-05-03T18:32:24Z cojy: only hurting yourself but whatever 2016-05-03T18:32:49Z noethics: "doesn't even know scheme" as if that's the only lisp around 2016-05-03T18:32:50Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T18:32:57Z noethics: hold your horses 2016-05-03T18:33:03Z leif joined #scheme 2016-05-03T18:33:39Z ecraven: noethics: your comments suggest you don't now any lisp or scheme well 2016-05-03T18:34:19Z noethics: i don't know them well, and i could be wrong on some technical level. but i'm going to keep thinking lisp overall is going to be good for programming webassembly 2016-05-03T18:34:22Z noethics: which was my point afterall 2016-05-03T18:37:03Z leif: noethics: You should write your own scheme implementation. Then you will be a l33t scheme hacker. 2016-05-03T18:37:04Z ecraven: noethics: it probably is, but not for any reason connected to s-expressions and webAssembly (I'd guess) 2016-05-03T18:37:10Z noethics: leif, thanks lol 2016-05-03T18:37:14Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T18:37:41Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-03T18:37:45Z noethics: leif, i was kidding about that btw, hoping to inspire some conversation 2016-05-03T18:37:49Z noethics: :( 2016-05-03T18:38:02Z ecraven: well, it's a good way to learn how the language works 2016-05-03T18:38:10Z samw3 left #scheme 2016-05-03T18:38:28Z lalex: taylan: thanks. jcowans explanation cleared it up well 2016-05-03T18:38:31Z noethics: i have written some really shitty lisplike dsls for certain things 2016-05-03T18:39:24Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2016-05-03T18:39:27Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T18:48:14Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2016-05-03T18:50:10Z jcowan_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T18:50:24Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-03T18:53:01Z nanoz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T18:53:31Z defanor quit (Quit: .) 2016-05-03T18:53:38Z defanor joined #scheme 2016-05-03T18:58:03Z kuribas joined #scheme 2016-05-03T19:05:28Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T19:15:32Z wasamasa: not webassembly-like ones? 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-03T20:24:18Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-03T20:25:10Z |2701_ is now known as |2701 2016-05-03T20:27:40Z civodul joined #scheme 2016-05-03T20:28:40Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-03T20:29:45Z oskarth joined #scheme 2016-05-03T20:31:24Z markhkim joined #scheme 2016-05-03T20:32:30Z ecraven: benchmark of various schemes 2016-05-03T20:32:31Z ecraven: http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/scheme-benchmark-r7rs.html 2016-05-03T20:32:42Z ecraven: no guarantees, I didn't verify things a lot 2016-05-03T20:32:54Z ecraven: these are various r6rs schemes: http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/scheme-benchmark.html 2016-05-03T20:33:19Z ecraven: same machine, so they might be kind of comparable (though the r7rs measure only benchmark time, r6rs measures startup and runtime too) 2016-05-03T20:34:36Z jcowan: ecraven: I'm still having problems with Stalin, I was overhasty in saying it was built 2016-05-03T20:34:49Z jcowan: I'll plug away at it for a while yet 2016-05-03T20:35:17Z ecraven: jcowan: don't worry. I've written an email to will clinger, asking whether it might be possible to liberate the benchmark, to update it to work reliably on more schemes 2016-05-03T20:35:27Z ecraven: I've written a few preludes, defining the necessary functions in various schemes 2016-05-03T20:35:29Z jcowan: "liberate"? 2016-05-03T20:35:32Z ecraven: seems to work ok 2016-05-03T20:35:41Z ecraven: well, put on github without the rest of larceny 2016-05-03T20:35:49Z ecraven: I didn't actually use that word 2016-05-03T20:36:18Z ecraven: just to make work on this easier 2016-05-03T20:36:19Z jcowan: The larceny license clearly allows that 2016-05-03T20:36:32Z ecraven: yea, I still wanted to ask 2016-05-03T20:37:25Z ngz joined #scheme 2016-05-03T20:37:55Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-03T20:39:07Z ecraven: chez is *still* faster by a considerable margin 2016-05-03T20:40:11Z markhkim quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-03T20:40:29Z markhkim joined #scheme 2016-05-03T20:40:30Z markhkim quit (Changing host) 2016-05-03T20:40:30Z markhkim joined #scheme 2016-05-03T20:42:38Z lalex: ecraven: interesting that some schemes are orders of magnitudes slower 2016-05-03T20:43:07Z ecraven: lalex: well, some are interpreted, some are compiled 2016-05-03T20:43:13Z ecraven: this is very much unreliable data! 2016-05-03T20:46:20Z lalex: my scheme interpreter i once wrote in c was really crap slow. there is really some engineering behind them. esp. a good gc is the base. 2016-05-03T20:46:32Z ecraven: hm.. running out of colours :-/ 2016-05-03T20:47:24Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-03T20:48:37Z lalex: not being able to write a fast scheme interpreter makes me feel like an impostor 2016-05-03T20:51:16Z Riastradh: A good garbage collector definitely needs enough colours. Just black is not enough! 2016-05-03T20:51:22Z jcowan: That's silly. If you couldn't write a slow dynamically scoped Lisp interpreter, then you might be an impostor. 2016-05-03T20:51:48Z Riastradh: (This is why Henry Ford never made it in the Lisp world.) 2016-05-03T20:53:13Z lalex: i dont like dynamic scope :) at least my last interpreter was just 100 times slower than lua 2016-05-03T20:53:29Z jcowan: Nobody likes dynamic scope, not even RMS these days. It's just easy. 2016-05-03T20:53:53Z jcowan: Oh, the NewLisp guy likes it, but he wants to allocate a separate namespace for each procedure, so it comes to the same thing. 2016-05-03T20:53:55Z jcowan: Almost. 2016-05-03T20:54:26Z lalex: but my gc skills dont go beyond 2 color m&s. or rather my willingness to spend more time on it 2016-05-03T20:55:31Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T20:57:50Z groovy2shoes: dynamic scope is useful sometimes, but it definitely should not be the default 2016-05-03T20:58:15Z groovy2shoes: I'm in favor of how Scheme and EuLisp handle it, where it's available and always obvious when it's being used 2016-05-03T20:58:51Z groovy2shoes: of course, in many languages that don't have it, it can be simulated pretty easy with a teensy tiny bit of cleverness 2016-05-03T20:59:40Z groovy2shoes: also, the Newlisp guy has succeeded in inventing the Perl of Newlisps, and I wouldn't take any language design advice from him 2016-05-03T21:00:12Z groovy2shoes: at least, not without getting second and third opinions from someone else who doesn't happen to be Larry Wall or a Newlisp or Perl fan 2016-05-03T21:00:14Z lalex: i always wondered how his gc worked 2016-05-03T21:00:34Z aeth: Is there a license for the code in section 7.3 of r7rs? 2016-05-03T21:01:26Z jcowan: The license for R7RS as a whole is on p. 3 2016-05-03T21:01:29Z jcowan: We intend this report to belong to the entire Scheme community, 2016-05-03T21:01:29Z jcowan: and so we grant permission to copy it in whole or in 2016-05-03T21:01:29Z jcowan: part without fee. In particular, we encourage implementers 2016-05-03T21:01:29Z jcowan: of Scheme to use this report as a starting point for manuals 2016-05-03T21:01:31Z jcowan: and other documentation, modifying it as necessary 2016-05-03T21:05:08Z aeth: jcowan: so I put (c) editors-list 2013 and then that paragraph in the file header? 2016-05-03T21:09:46Z jcowan: It's very doubtful who, if anyone, holds the copyright on the Scheme report. Certainly we don't claim to. 2016-05-03T21:09:59Z jcowan: I wouldn't worry about it. Copy the paragraph and say "Used by permission" 2016-05-03T21:11:26Z groovy2shoes: for what it's worth, the hardcopy of R6RS from Cambridge University Press says that the text is in the public domain on the copyright page 2016-05-03T21:12:02Z groovy2shoes: so, at the very least, the CUP legal staff interpret the text in the report as a public domain dedication 2016-05-03T21:12:32Z badkins quit 2016-05-03T21:12:38Z kuthurium joined #scheme 2016-05-03T21:12:47Z xieyuheng: why this macro is wrong :: I simplify the problem to this :: https://www.refheap.com/118633 2016-05-03T21:14:06Z xieyuheng: oh typo , this one :: https://www.refheap.com/118634 2016-05-03T21:15:47Z groovy2shoes: xieyuheng, looks like you're trying to re-implement datum->syntax ? 2016-05-03T21:16:55Z xieyuheng: no, it is I fail to write a big macro, and I simplify the error report to this 2016-05-03T21:19:59Z xieyuheng: the recursive expansion call (parse rest) must be wrong 2016-05-03T21:20:21Z xieyuheng: change it to rest will do, but how ? 2016-05-03T21:20:33Z xieyuheng: but how it is wrong ? 2016-05-03T21:21:42Z markhkim left #scheme 2016-05-03T21:31:04Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T21:33:30Z groovy2shoes: xieyuheng, https://www.refheap.com/118635 2016-05-03T21:33:30Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T21:33:42Z groovy2shoes: you just needed to quote your lists 2016-05-03T21:35:18Z xieyuheng: I mean to get (list 1 2) instead of (list list 1 2) 2016-05-03T21:35:19Z groovy2shoes: you'll always have to quote them on the right-hand side of a syntax-case clause, because it's an expression rather than a template as it is in syntax-rules 2016-05-03T21:35:50Z groovy2shoes: I get (list 1 2) in Racket with #lang r6rs 2016-05-03T21:36:40Z aeth: groovy2shoes: whether or not it's public domain, including the license is useful 2016-05-03T21:36:55Z xieyuheng: groovy2shoes: syntax-rules the same :: https://www.refheap.com/118636 2016-05-03T21:38:24Z xieyuheng: in racket you get '(# 1 2) 2016-05-03T21:39:13Z groovy2shoes: aeth, I'm not saying you shouldn't include it, I'm just noting that the license has been interpreted as a public domain dedication at least once before 2016-05-03T21:40:05Z groovy2shoes: xieyuheng, what exactly are you trying to get from this macro? 2016-05-03T21:42:06Z xieyuheng: groovy2shoes: I am trying to let this macro do nothing but just running through (linearly) the expression under it 2016-05-03T21:42:52Z groovy2shoes: xieyuheng, so, it's the identity macro, then? 2016-05-03T21:43:40Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-03T21:44:07Z aeth: groovy2shoes: it doesn't help, though, that not every country has public domain. 2016-05-03T21:44:26Z xieyuheng: it is just a test, I am trying to used it to find how I understand the macro system wrong 2016-05-03T21:44:57Z aeth: (Until the benevolent Lispy AI overlord takes over and unites all jurisdictions...) 2016-05-03T21:45:22Z groovy2shoes: aeth, that is true... afaik, the report is "mostly" written by Will Clinger (except R6RS), so maybe ask him? 2016-05-03T21:46:39Z jcowan: The point is that there is an explicit license to use the work or parts of it, and this license imposes no restrictions on anyone. 2016-05-03T21:47:15Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-03T21:49:32Z jcowan: In any case, I am a joint author of the work, and as such I can license anyone to do anything with it I want, as long as I will be responsible to the other joint authors for any loss of profits as a result. 2016-05-03T21:49:36Z jcowan: So: 2016-05-03T21:49:39Z jcowan: ~~ zap ~~ 2016-05-03T21:49:56Z aeth: The one drawback is it doesn't have the NO WARRANTY SHOUTING TEXT that most licenses have 2016-05-03T21:49:59Z jcowan: you now have your very own license to the code in 7.3 2016-05-03T21:50:06Z jcowan: Add your own SHOUTING 2016-05-03T21:50:35Z groovy2shoes: xieyuheng, https://www.refheap.com/118637 2016-05-03T21:52:15Z xieyuheng: groovy2shoes: nevermind me, if you do mind, see my message above, I said: "I am trying to let this macro do nothing *but just running through (linearly) the expression under it*" 2016-05-03T21:52:21Z groovy2shoes: aeth, as a US citizen, I *do* get to enjoy the notion of public domain, and as such I can legally make a small modification to the report and then license it under some other license for you ;) 2016-05-03T21:52:49Z groovy2shoes: xieyuheng, that's what it does 2016-05-03T21:52:50Z xieyuheng: you miss the *running-through* 2016-05-03T21:53:03Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T21:53:27Z jcowan: The RnRS reports are not in the public domain 2016-05-03T21:53:38Z groovy2shoes: xieyuheng, the way macros work is that the evaluator evaluates the expansion of the macro in place of the original syntactic form 2016-05-03T21:53:42Z xieyuheng: you mean the ... does ? 2016-05-03T21:53:43Z jcowan: it's simply that their copyright owners are unclear: that is, they are orphaned works. 2016-05-03T21:54:01Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, tell that to the Cambridge University Press, then 2016-05-03T21:54:24Z aeth: Now I "only" need to add in hygienic macros and continuations to get most of a (SRFI-less) Scheme. 2016-05-03T21:54:34Z jcowan: Is there a copyright notice in the book version of R6RS? I've never seen it. 2016-05-03T21:55:49Z jcowan: the book, that is 2016-05-03T21:56:36Z turbofail2 joined #scheme 2016-05-03T21:56:52Z noethics quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T21:57:15Z noethics joined #scheme 2016-05-03T21:57:37Z turbofail2: oh man i just heard about chez scheme now. pretty exciting 2016-05-03T21:58:05Z turbofail2: (the freeing of, i mean) 2016-05-03T21:59:48Z groovy2shoes: xieyuheng, are you saying you want your macro to work like `quote`? 2016-05-03T21:59:50Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:02:11Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-03T22:02:13Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, aeth: http://tinyurl.com/zghmf5x 2016-05-03T22:02:17Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-03T22:02:32Z groovy2shoes: anyway, I gotta run 2016-05-03T22:02:43Z xieyuheng: groovy2shoes: I want to understand how to define recursive macro, it seems that with the power of ... one do not need recursion ? 2016-05-03T22:02:44Z xieyuheng: thank you, I will review my question, try to rewrite my macro. 2016-05-03T22:03:44Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-03T22:03:47Z groovy2shoes: xieyuheng, you wrote an almost-perfect recursive macro the first time, you just needed to quote your lists when using syntax-case 2016-05-03T22:04:34Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T22:08:10Z jcowan: syntax-quote them, yes? 2016-05-03T22:08:45Z Guest74977 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T22:08:47Z Guest749` joined #scheme 2016-05-03T22:08:52Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:09:50Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-03T22:11:54Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:12:14Z abbe joined #scheme 2016-05-03T22:13:02Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-03T22:14:52Z weinholt quit (Read error: error:1408F10B:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:wrong version number) 2016-05-03T22:16:23Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-03T22:19:28Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:19:59Z weinholt joined #scheme 2016-05-03T22:22:09Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I think they took them out ... 2016-05-04T06:43:56Z wasamasa: https://github.com/Calysto/calysto_scheme/blob/master/calysto_scheme/scheme.py#L7103-L7350 2016-05-04T06:43:56Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/hiJcghrGkI 2016-05-04T06:44:01Z wasamasa: it's as if elif doesn't exist... 2016-05-04T06:45:10Z JoshS: I've never used Python 2016-05-04T06:45:55Z JoshS: my current coding is in lua/luajit 2016-05-04T06:46:00Z wasamasa: yet you consider ruby worse :P 2016-05-04T06:46:08Z JoshS: I consider Ruby slower 2016-05-04T06:46:44Z JoshS: Luajit is the fastest dynamic language, largely because it doesn't have the numeric stack of lisp 2016-05-04T06:47:26Z JoshS: Despite all of the bellyaching I've yet to write something that suffered because of using doubles as the only numeric type 2016-05-04T06:47:43Z JoshS: in practical code, doubles are a fine stand in for integers 2016-05-04T06:58:57Z mbuf joined #scheme 2016-05-04T07:03:25Z groovy2shoes: I don't think doubles-only is really a large part of what makes LuaJIT fast 2016-05-04T07:03:50Z groovy2shoes: but I agree, it hasn't been a hindrance for any program I've written in Lua 2016-05-04T07:05:30Z groovy2shoes: I mean, you do get something like 2^53 + 1 consecutive integers on each side of 0 2016-05-04T07:06:11Z groovy2shoes: or should I say, ±0 2016-05-04T07:07:08Z JoshS: well that and a good implementation of many things 2016-05-04T07:07:24Z groovy2shoes: yeah, Mike Pall is a god among men 2016-05-04T07:07:31Z JoshS: It's amazing how little effort goes into benchmarks 2016-05-04T07:07:59Z groovy2shoes: it's amazing how easy he makes it all sound on the mailinglist 2016-05-04T07:08:00Z JoshS: I don't think luajit is probably as fast in the real world as the few benchmarks would lead you to believe 2016-05-04T07:08:15Z groovy2shoes: it's pretty damn fast, though 2016-05-04T07:08:22Z JoshS: It's good 2016-05-04T07:08:38Z groovy2shoes: noticeably faster than Python, Ruby, and Perl, at least 2016-05-04T07:09:07Z groovy2shoes: we have an app at work that was originally Perl, now it's Python, but I did a little prototype with LuaJIT just to see 2016-05-04T07:09:11Z z0d: Python is slow 2016-05-04T07:09:14Z groovy2shoes: and it's noticeably faster 2016-05-04T07:09:18Z JoshS: yeah 2016-05-04T07:09:20Z groovy2shoes: by a wide margin 2016-05-04T07:09:25Z JoshS: I'm working in it now... 2016-05-04T07:09:27Z z0d: and Perl is fast for string processing. does LUA beat it in that aspect as well? 2016-05-04T07:09:31Z groovy2shoes: and that app spends half its time I/O-bound 2016-05-04T07:09:33Z JoshS: I'm working on a macro system for lua 2016-05-04T07:09:47Z groovy2shoes: something like MetaLua? 2016-05-04T07:09:56Z JoshS: as some test code, I'm writing a continuation passing transform macro system 2016-05-04T07:10:11Z JoshS: I'll be able to embed prolog and amb in lua >.> 2016-05-04T07:10:18Z JoshS: It's in pure lua 2016-05-04T07:10:26Z groovy2shoes: :) 2016-05-04T07:10:33Z JoshS: I've been working on it pretty hard for 3 weeks so far 2016-05-04T07:10:41Z JoshS: and integrating it into Zerobrane 2016-05-04T07:10:55Z groovy2shoes: at one time I had been working on a Lisp that compiles to Lua 2016-05-04T07:11:00Z JoshS: It shows errors and can kind of single step 2016-05-04T07:11:06Z groovy2shoes: seamless interop between Lemma and Lua 2016-05-04T07:11:13Z JoshS: nice 2016-05-04T07:11:18Z JoshS: what's Lemma? 2016-05-04T07:11:26Z JoshS: its name? 2016-05-04T07:11:36Z groovy2shoes: but I stopped because I didn't have the time, and just never managed to get back into it when I did 2016-05-04T07:11:40Z groovy2shoes: yeah 2016-05-04T07:11:57Z JoshS: I consider this practice for a more full compiler to lua 2016-05-04T07:12:09Z JoshS: But I intend to make this really polished 2016-05-04T07:12:15Z groovy2shoes: https://github.com/baguette/lemma 2016-05-04T07:12:16Z JoshS: so that I will have actual users >.> 2016-05-04T07:12:35Z JoshS: https://github.com/differentprogramming/lua-macro 2016-05-04T07:12:51Z groovy2shoes: hygienic macros were on the table, and I at some point changed parameter lists to use vectors as in Clojure, but I don't like it so I was going to change them back :p 2016-05-04T07:13:09Z JoshS: the help file from the first day and my first on github so it's not good 2016-05-04T07:13:11Z JoshS: or up to date 2016-05-04T07:13:23Z groovy2shoes: despite the rather large TODO, it actually does work pretty well already 2016-05-04T07:13:32Z groovy2shoes: I just had higher ambitions 2016-05-04T07:13:47Z groovy2shoes: heheh alright 2016-05-04T07:14:40Z JoshS: take a look at this test file http://paste.ofcode.org/Chef7cMZSSMjnjtgQTpunY 2016-05-04T07:14:42Z logicmoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T07:14:54Z groovy2shoes: oooo the coroutine literals are a great idea 2016-05-04T07:15:22Z JoshS: there are two kind of functions 2016-05-04T07:15:29Z JoshS: normal ones and ones with continuations 2016-05-04T07:15:37Z JoshS: callcc is from a normal function 2016-05-04T07:15:58Z JoshS: so it needs the endcc to delimit the lambda that will be generated as the continuation 2016-05-04T07:16:05Z JoshS: but functions that have continuations don't need that 2016-05-04T07:16:18Z JoshS: the funcc makes a funcition with a continuation 2016-05-04T07:16:28Z JoshS: ... these are all simple macros 2016-05-04T07:16:37Z JoshS: the start of a cps transform system 2016-05-04T07:16:50Z groovy2shoes: I'm not sure how to process what I'm looking at here in this paste :/ 2016-05-04T07:17:01Z JoshS: one innovation is macros that generate code in multiple places 2016-05-04T07:17:10Z JoshS: so you can generate a function 2016-05-04T07:17:15Z groovy2shoes: like, depending on context? 2016-05-04T07:17:20Z JoshS: and generate a local variable for it at the top of the file 2016-05-04T07:17:26Z groovy2shoes: oh, neat 2016-05-04T07:17:29Z JoshS: and generate an export for it at the bottom of the file 2016-05-04T07:17:32Z JoshS: with one macro 2016-05-04T07:17:37Z groovy2shoes: that's pretty cool 2016-05-04T07:17:48Z groovy2shoes: I'm guessing that's what the @section stuff is for? 2016-05-04T07:17:49Z JoshS: that's what the sections are 2016-05-04T07:17:54Z JoshS: yeah :3 2016-05-04T07:17:58Z groovy2shoes: :) 2016-05-04T07:18:13Z JoshS: I have internal macros 2016-05-04T07:18:37Z JoshS: so that a macro can generate and apply macros that don't apply out of it 2016-05-04T07:18:51Z JoshS: but it's, so far, not a super powerful system 2016-05-04T07:18:53Z JoshS: it's templates 2016-05-04T07:19:12Z groovy2shoes: one thing that would be neat in a language like Lua is macros that have different expansions depending on context 2016-05-04T07:19:18Z JoshS: notice the while macro 2016-05-04T07:19:27Z JoshS: it makes a while loop out of recursion 2016-05-04T07:19:33Z JoshS: so that it's compatible with continuation passing 2016-05-04T07:19:46Z groovy2shoes: like, if it's at the top-level it generates different code than if it's an RHS of some assignment, for example 2016-05-04T07:19:57Z groovy2shoes: nice 2016-05-04T07:20:26Z JoshS: Anyway I ran into a bug tonight 2016-05-04T07:20:31Z JoshS: so I'm pulling my hair out 2016-05-04T07:20:39Z JoshS: that file I pasted generates an empty file 2016-05-04T07:20:40Z groovy2shoes: oh, fun 2016-05-04T07:20:45Z JoshS: for no reason that I know of 2016-05-04T07:20:48Z JoshS: >.> 2016-05-04T07:21:06Z groovy2shoes: start tossing in the print statements, I guess ;) 2016-05-04T07:21:07Z JoshS: Some pieces of it have been tested seperately 2016-05-04T07:21:37Z JoshS: it's funny the way I match 2016-05-04T07:21:57Z JoshS: so to have for instance an add that works with continuations 2016-05-04T07:22:01Z JoshS: and amb and so on 2016-05-04T07:22:11Z JoshS: I can have _+ +_ and _+_ 2016-05-04T07:22:21Z groovy2shoes: what I always thought would be cool for macros is a more general term-rewriting system 2016-05-04T07:22:27Z JoshS: where _ is on the side where it can save and continue from a continuation 2016-05-04T07:22:43Z groovy2shoes: I think Cat had something like that, but its website has been down for over half a year now :( 2016-05-04T07:22:48Z JoshS: but those "operators" will have to be fully parenthesized 2016-05-04T07:22:54Z JoshS: unlike the built in ones 2016-05-04T07:23:12Z JoshS: It's really only matching tokens 2016-05-04T07:23:22Z JoshS: but it knows how to skip over parens 2016-05-04T07:23:26Z JoshS: and [] and {} 2016-05-04T07:23:32Z JoshS: and if then else end 2016-05-04T07:23:36Z JoshS: and for do end 2016-05-04T07:23:45Z JoshS: etc 2016-05-04T07:24:12Z JoshS: so if it's scanning till it hits a ) it will skip all of those things in between till it matches the correct paren 2016-05-04T07:25:10Z JoshS: groovy2shoes, I have no experience with term rewrite systems 2016-05-04T07:25:23Z JoshS: or I probably would have come up with something fancier 2016-05-04T07:25:27Z JoshS: but this isn't bad 2016-05-04T07:25:54Z JoshS: it scans from right to left so that macros are always fully expanded before they become parameters to other macros 2016-05-04T07:26:15Z JoshS: (or almost always? in fancier cases) 2016-05-04T07:26:38Z JoshS: That way new macro definitions won't break old ones. 2016-05-04T07:27:04Z JoshS: whenever it does a substitution it skips to the right of it and scans left again 2016-05-04T07:27:06Z _0xd3_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T07:27:54Z JoshS: so... 2016-05-04T07:28:33Z groovy2shoes: huh 2016-05-04T07:28:34Z groovy2shoes: cool 2016-05-04T07:28:37Z JoshS: So I guess I want to do something like lemma 2016-05-04T07:28:47Z JoshS: But I'm not a fan of sexpressions 2016-05-04T07:28:48Z groovy2shoes: seems really neat :) 2016-05-04T07:29:08Z JoshS: I like prolog style what do you call it 2016-05-04T07:29:12Z groovy2shoes: aw I love s-expressions 2016-05-04T07:29:17Z JoshS: where a language can parse itself 2016-05-04T07:29:23Z groovy2shoes: homoiconicity 2016-05-04T07:29:29Z JoshS: right 2016-05-04T07:29:30Z twem2 joined #scheme 2016-05-04T07:29:38Z JoshS: prolog can do it AND have operators 2016-05-04T07:29:49Z JoshS: and have user defined operators 2016-05-04T07:30:08Z JoshS: and do fancy macros and matching 2016-05-04T07:30:10Z groovy2shoes: I think a lot of explanations of homoiconicity are wrong and lean too heavily on intuition when defining the concept 2016-05-04T07:30:27Z JoshS: I have programmed in scheme and in lua 2016-05-04T07:30:34Z JoshS: lua is a lot easier to read 2016-05-04T07:30:35Z JoshS: A LOT 2016-05-04T07:30:46Z ecraven: JoshS: feel free to stay with lua then :D 2016-05-04T07:30:57Z groovy2shoes: things like "the source is represented as a data structure that can be manipulated natively by the language itself" aren't precise enough... that makes virtually every language homoiconic 2016-05-04T07:31:13Z JoshS: I'm saying that sexpressions aren't necessarily the pinacle of homoiconicity 2016-05-04T07:31:20Z groovy2shoes: but the key to having homoiconicity is something akin to Lisp's `read` 2016-05-04T07:31:42Z JoshS: you should play with prolog 2016-05-04T07:31:43Z groovy2shoes: I argue that a language is homoiconic iff it has `read` 2016-05-04T07:31:47Z JoshS: get in deep 2016-05-04T07:31:49Z groovy2shoes: I have played with Prolog :) 2016-05-04T07:32:05Z JoshS: wouldn't you call prolog homoiconic? 2016-05-04T07:32:10Z groovy2shoes: yes, I would 2016-05-04T07:32:16Z JoshS: also it can turn into something like sexpressions 2016-05-04T07:32:22Z JoshS: with ..= 2016-05-04T07:32:38Z groovy2shoes: sorry, that was a bit of a tangent 2016-05-04T07:32:47Z stepnem joined #scheme 2016-05-04T07:32:59Z groovy2shoes: it's just that I was thinking about a better definition of homoiconicity a few days ago after reading the wikipedia page 2016-05-04T07:33:17Z JoshS: I like sexpressions for code walking 2016-05-04T07:33:22Z groovy2shoes: and I think that's the one... it all comes down to `read` 2016-05-04T07:33:29Z JoshS: but people don't code-walk in lisp 2016-05-04T07:33:33Z JoshS: almost never 2016-05-04T07:33:51Z groovy2shoes: you see it sometimes in procedural macros 2016-05-04T07:33:58Z groovy2shoes: and in evaluators 2016-05-04T07:34:04Z JoshS: but there is no reason that an expression couldn't have a surface and a deep representation 2016-05-04T07:34:13Z JoshS: mlisp and slisp 2016-05-04T07:34:26Z groovy2shoes: well, that was the intention back when Lisp was invented 2016-05-04T07:34:32Z JoshS: why not define a whole language that way 2016-05-04T07:34:34Z _0xd3_ joined #scheme 2016-05-04T07:34:42Z JoshS: I know, I used to have a copy of "the anatomy of lisp" 2016-05-04T07:34:50Z groovy2shoes: the Lisp 1.5 Programmer's Manual *does* define the language that way ;) 2016-05-04T07:34:52Z JoshS: and half of that book was in an mlisp 2016-05-04T07:34:56Z groovy2shoes: heheheh 2016-05-04T07:35:10Z groovy2shoes: that book is hard to find nowadays, and ridiculously expensive when it's found 2016-05-04T07:35:16Z JoshS: I still think in lisp that way 2016-05-04T07:35:23Z JoshS: with -> for cond 2016-05-04T07:35:29Z groovy2shoes: :) 2016-05-04T07:36:01Z groovy2shoes: I've been told that Wolfram uses M-expressions, but I haven't used it myself, nor even looked into it, really 2016-05-04T07:36:17Z JoshS: :/ proprietary and EXPENSIVE 2016-05-04T07:36:23Z JoshS: I can't afford mathematica! 2016-05-04T07:36:45Z groovy2shoes: comes with Raspbian 2016-05-04T07:36:48Z JoshS: one famous researcher was threatened with lawsuit for making a small wolfram subset interpreter 2016-05-04T07:37:54Z groovy2shoes: been thinking about playing with it there, but I only have the first version model B, so only 448 MB of RAM :/ 2016-05-04T07:37:55Z JoshS: but wolfram does look interesting... all of those fancy ways to transform expressions 2016-05-04T07:39:13Z JoshS: How much does Lemma do? 2016-05-04T07:39:23Z ecraven: jcowan: do you have larceny installed? is there a way to actually install it to the system, not just run it from the tarball? 2016-05-04T07:39:38Z groovy2shoes: well, it does everything I want it to do except hygienic macros and *good* separate compilation 2016-05-04T07:40:08Z JoshS: I'm not happy with racket's macro implementation at all 2016-05-04T07:40:13Z groovy2shoes: it currently does unhygienic macros, and everything works fine in separate compilation except macros can't be imported from other files :S 2016-05-04T07:40:18Z JoshS: I would look at clojure macros 2016-05-04T07:40:22Z groovy2shoes: the new one? 2016-05-04T07:40:23Z JoshS: or julia 2016-05-04T07:40:33Z groovy2shoes: I don't much care for Clojure, tbh 2016-05-04T07:40:37Z JoshS: or make one up from scratch 2016-05-04T07:40:59Z groovy2shoes: I think it's a mistake to not have macros that are hygienic by default 2016-05-04T07:41:20Z groovy2shoes: (oh, and Lemma could also use some better error reporting... that was also on my TODO) 2016-05-04T07:41:36Z JoshS: lol I always said I wouldn't want a template based macro system 2016-05-04T07:41:40Z JoshS: and here I am writing one 2016-05-04T07:41:56Z JoshS: I just wanted something simple enough to mock up quickly 2016-05-04T07:42:01Z groovy2shoes: I think template-based macro systems tend to be a really convenient way to write *most* macros 2016-05-04T07:42:03Z JoshS: and simple enough that people would use it 2016-05-04T07:42:27Z groovy2shoes: but it's good to have procedural macros when you need the extra power they tend to offer 2016-05-04T07:42:51Z JoshS: It's gonna be a pain putting those in 2016-05-04T07:43:04Z JoshS: under the surface my system is based on cons cells 2016-05-04T07:43:14Z JoshS: but no lua programmer knows what a cons cell is 2016-05-04T07:43:29Z JoshS: so I will probably have to put in translate to table and back 2016-05-04T07:43:36Z JoshS: for all procedural calls 2016-05-04T07:43:38Z groovy2shoes: honestly, in my experience, once you get to the point where you're writing a recursive template macro, you're probably better off with a procedural one 2016-05-04T07:44:05Z groovy2shoes: unless maybe it's a really simple recursive macro 2016-05-04T07:44:48Z JoshS: I'm falling asleep... 2016-05-04T07:45:00Z JoshS: is your nick based on the language groovy? 2016-05-04T07:45:06Z groovy2shoes: nope 2016-05-04T07:45:09Z groovy2shoes: it predates the language 2016-05-04T07:45:10Z JoshS: oh ok 2016-05-04T07:45:27Z groovy2shoes: it's just a play on the phrase "goodie-two-shoes" 2016-05-04T07:45:46Z civodul joined #scheme 2016-05-04T07:46:07Z JoshS: I really love the macro that does a call/cc 2016-05-04T07:46:35Z groovy2shoes: wow... in 8 days I'll have had this nick registered for 10 years 2016-05-04T07:46:35Z JoshS: and opens a block the rest of which is the continuation that will be passed 2016-05-04T07:46:37Z groovy2shoes: I feel old 2016-05-04T07:46:45Z JoshS: it creates an inherently delimited continuation 2016-05-04T07:46:59Z JoshS: that's explicit but readable 2016-05-04T07:47:41Z JoshS: http://paste.ofcode.org/b8E8g8bsZHUYrHKTNydaiM 2016-05-04T07:48:03Z z0d: you feel old? Registered: 14y 16w 4d ago 2016-05-04T07:48:17Z groovy2shoes: heheheh :) 2016-05-04T07:48:20Z ecraven: how do you check? 2016-05-04T07:48:29Z groovy2shoes: /msg nickserv info 2016-05-04T07:48:29Z z0d: msg nickserv info yournick 2016-05-04T07:48:51Z ecraven: ah, it's been some time :) 2016-05-04T07:48:55Z ecraven: thanks 2016-05-04T07:48:58Z JoshS: msg nickserv info JoshS 2016-05-04T07:49:08Z ecraven: JoshS: add a / it the very front, /msg ... 2016-05-04T07:49:16Z JoshS: One year 2016-05-04T07:49:45Z groovy2shoes: perhaps I should mention that I've had this nick since well before I registered it, and that it's also not my first nick? ¬_¬ 2016-05-04T07:49:47Z JoshS: But I'm old anyway 2016-05-04T07:49:53Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-04T07:49:58Z groovy2shoes feels as though the size of his e-pen0r has been compromised 2016-05-04T07:50:06Z JoshS: lol 2016-05-04T07:50:44Z JoshS: groovy2shoes, does lemma have continuations 2016-05-04T07:50:54Z groovy2shoes: not first-class ones, no 2016-05-04T07:50:59Z JoshS: as you can tell from my talk of it and prolog, I'm a bit obsessed with those 2016-05-04T07:51:09Z groovy2shoes: closest you can get conveniently is Lua's coroutines 2016-05-04T07:51:45Z groovy2shoes: (def foo (lua.coroutine.create (fn [bar] baz))) 2016-05-04T07:51:50Z JoshS: not surprising, it would slow your implemenation way down to have first class continuations 2016-05-04T07:51:58Z JoshS: but I have a cunning plan 2016-05-04T07:52:28Z JoshS: which is to make routines and calls that can capture continuations have a different syntax than regular routines and calls 2016-05-04T07:52:43Z JoshS: lifted out, they don't slow down the rest of the system 2016-05-04T07:53:11Z JoshS: nor do they compromise the meaning of programs the way continuations can 2016-05-04T07:53:33Z JoshS: you never have to wonder "does the routine I called have the possibility of saving a continuation and coming back?" 2016-05-04T07:53:35Z groovy2shoes: you could also just reserve CPS for between the continuation delimiters 2016-05-04T07:53:57Z JoshS: groovy2shoes, that's part of it 2016-05-04T07:54:13Z JoshS: but in a routine that has a continuation 2016-05-04T07:54:20Z JoshS: you don't need the delimeters 2016-05-04T07:54:29Z groovy2shoes: ah okay 2016-05-04T07:54:52Z JoshS: when I get this working 2016-05-04T07:55:11Z JoshS: will you play with it, and give me omg bug reports >.> 2016-05-04T07:55:19Z _0xd3_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T07:55:41Z groovy2shoes: yeah, sure :) 2016-05-04T07:55:47Z JoshS: cool 2016-05-04T07:55:53Z groovy2shoes: you didn't happen to work for EMC, did you? 2016-05-04T07:55:57Z JoshS: no 2016-05-04T07:55:59Z JoshS: what's emc 2016-05-04T07:56:05Z groovy2shoes: it's a company 2016-05-04T07:56:15Z groovy2shoes: hmm... you look really familiar for some reason 2016-05-04T07:56:33Z JoshS: I don't think any company I worked for directly failed to go out of business' 2016-05-04T07:56:40Z groovy2shoes: lol 2016-05-04T07:56:59Z groovy2shoes: you wouldn't happen to live in NC, would you? 2016-05-04T07:57:11Z JoshS: no near san francisco 2016-05-04T07:57:15Z groovy2shoes: ah 2016-05-04T07:57:28Z JoshS: u r east coast? 2016-05-04T07:57:31Z groovy2shoes: I'm probably just thinking of someone else, then... 2016-05-04T07:57:38Z groovy2shoes: yeah, Charlotte, NC at the moment 2016-05-04T07:57:45Z groovy2shoes: but I still think of Raleigh as my home 2016-05-04T07:58:05Z groovy2shoes: even though I grew up near Tampa lol 2016-05-04T07:58:12Z JoshS: I'm going to get a snack in a minute 2016-05-04T07:58:17Z groovy2shoes: k 2016-05-04T07:58:18Z JoshS: which involves cooking >.> 2016-05-04T07:58:23Z groovy2shoes: :) 2016-05-04T07:58:44Z JoshS: I think it's funny that Obama teased Trump who sat there like a lump of resentment 2016-05-04T07:58:52Z JoshS: and now that lump thinks he can be president 2016-05-04T07:59:03Z groovy2shoes: yeah 2016-05-04T07:59:13Z JoshS: He's gonna look like that lump again when Hillary wins. 2016-05-04T07:59:22Z groovy2shoes: if he becomes president, I'm going to up and move to another country 2016-05-04T08:00:01Z JoshS: Maybe we can exchange prisoners with other countries that have brainless despot type populists 2016-05-04T08:00:12Z groovy2shoes: lol 2016-05-04T08:00:30Z JoshS: Who replaced Hugo Chavez? 2016-05-04T08:00:37Z groovy2shoes: no idea 2016-05-04T08:00:50Z JoshS: Trump should just run for president of Venezuela 2016-05-04T08:01:16Z JoshS: They're used to that kind of suffering 2016-05-04T08:01:18Z JoshS: and the tweets 2016-05-04T08:01:20Z JoshS: >.> 2016-05-04T08:01:56Z JoshS: good night 2016-05-04T08:05:15Z groovy2shoes: g'night! 2016-05-04T08:08:15Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-04T08:18:29Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-04T08:19:40Z AlexDenisov quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-04T08:23:53Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-04T08:41:25Z arbv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T08:42:40Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-04T08:43:15Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-04T08:43:37Z AlexDenisov quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-04T08:45:25Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-04T08:48:40Z ecraven: foof`: does chibi have a function that returns the current chibi version at runtime? 2016-05-04T08:49:07Z lloda joined #scheme 2016-05-04T08:52:39Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-04T08:59:40Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-04T09:00:23Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2016-05-04T09:00:23Z nisstyre joined #scheme 2016-05-04T09:02:22Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-04T09:03:06Z pierpa` is now known as pierpa 2016-05-04T09:08:03Z madmuppe` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-04T09:10:54Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-04T09:14:52Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-04T09:16:40Z arbv left #scheme 2016-05-04T09:17:43Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-04T09:18:00Z arbv left #scheme 2016-05-04T09:25:32Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-04T09:25:50Z arbv left #scheme 2016-05-04T09:26:10Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-04T09:26:26Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-04T09:31:42Z br0kenman joined #scheme 2016-05-04T09:42:48Z zhcy1 joined #scheme 2016-05-04T09:43:44Z zhcy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T09:43:44Z zhcy1 is now known as zhcy 2016-05-04T09:43:44Z lolcow joined #scheme 2016-05-04T09:44:46Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-04T09:45:33Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2016-05-04T09:47:01Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-04T09:52:53Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-04T10:16:19Z ecraven: https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-benchmarks (based on the larceny benchmarks) 2016-05-04T10:20:18Z mbuf_ joined #scheme 2016-05-04T10:21:27Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-05-04T10:22:30Z logicmoo joined #scheme 2016-05-04T10:24:04Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-04T10:27:03Z noethics quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-04T10:27:56Z JoshS: Is groovy2shoes in 2016-05-04T10:30:49Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, yup 2016-05-04T10:31:01Z JoshS: I found my bugs 2016-05-04T10:31:06Z groovy2shoes: sweet :) 2016-05-04T10:31:08Z JoshS: mostly abusing nconc 2016-05-04T10:31:23Z JoshS: in a worse way than you can in real lisp 2016-05-04T10:31:40Z JoshS: if your nil is implemented as a cons cell that points at itself 2016-05-04T10:31:50Z JoshS: then abusing nconc can destroy your nil 2016-05-04T10:31:56Z JoshS: >.> 2016-05-04T10:32:56Z JoshS: I thought that was horrible enough to be worthy of note 2016-05-04T10:33:18Z madmuppet006 joined #scheme 2016-05-04T10:38:04Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-04T10:38:29Z ios quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-04T10:42:34Z groovy2shoes: lol 2016-05-04T10:46:18Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-04T10:46:55Z mbuf_ is now known as mbuf 2016-05-04T11:11:12Z kuribas joined #scheme 2016-05-04T11:11:47Z bokr joined #scheme 2016-05-04T11:12:02Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T11:25:00Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T11:30:59Z bokr quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-04T11:34:10Z bokr joined #scheme 2016-05-04T11:35:04Z averell joined #scheme 2016-05-04T11:37:17Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-04T11:42:09Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T11:44:31Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-04T11:45:06Z nowhere_man joined #scheme 2016-05-04T12:13:19Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T12:13:32Z karswell joined #scheme 2016-05-04T12:16:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-04T12:18:44Z ggole joined #scheme 2016-05-04T12:21:52Z mbuf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T12:25:42Z pierpa` joined #scheme 2016-05-04T12:27:22Z foof`: ecraven: nope 2016-05-04T12:27:31Z bokr quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-04T12:29:13Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-04T12:32:55Z greatscottttt quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-05-04T12:37:20Z pierpa` is now known as pierpa 2016-05-04T12:38:00Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-05-04T12:38:16Z jusss joined #scheme 2016-05-04T12:41:02Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T12:41:18Z karswell joined #scheme 2016-05-04T12:46:48Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T12:47:04Z karswell joined #scheme 2016-05-04T12:50:19Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-04T12:54:59Z egg_ joined #scheme 2016-05-04T12:55:12Z egg_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-04T12:55:51Z _0xd3_ joined #scheme 2016-05-04T12:56:14Z logicmoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T13:00:32Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-04T13:11:11Z xieyuheng joined #scheme 2016-05-04T13:22:00Z greatscottttt quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-05-04T13:24:28Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-04T13:25:11Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-05-04T13:28:42Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-04T13:30:58Z ecraven: now including Chez! as always, these numbers may be totally wrong and unreliable https://www.nexoid.at/tmp/scheme-benchmark-r7rs.html 2016-05-04T13:32:02Z _0xd3_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T13:32:35Z groovy2shoes: woo! 2016-05-04T13:33:35Z groovy2shoes: dayumn! 2016-05-04T13:33:50Z groovy2shoes: I've always known that Chez is a beast, but still -- dayumn! 2016-05-04T13:34:46Z groovy2shoes: nice to see Gauche in the benchmarks, too 2016-05-04T13:34:54Z groovy2shoes: I've always been fond of it, but it doesn't seem very well-known 2016-05-04T13:35:31Z ecraven: I'll add more implementations over time 2016-05-04T13:38:14Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T13:41:23Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-04T13:43:24Z oleo joined #scheme 2016-05-04T13:50:43Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-04T13:54:01Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-04T13:55:09Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-04T13:55:36Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T13:57:40Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-04T13:59:29Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-04T14:05:26Z jrslepak_ is now known as jrslepak 2016-05-04T14:08:42Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-05-04T14:08:45Z groscoe_ joined #scheme 2016-05-04T14:10:39Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T14:11:33Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-04T14:12:36Z mejja: ecraven: You should use vector-8b as a substitute for bytevectors in your mit scheme prolog 2016-05-04T14:12:44Z Crashlog joined #scheme 2016-05-04T14:13:39Z groscoe__ joined #scheme 2016-05-04T14:18:40Z jcowan: ecraven: eventually the benchmark views should be sorted by implementation type rather than by RnRS standard 2016-05-04T14:21:04Z jcowan: (compiler, bytecode/JIT, bytecode, no bytecode) 2016-05-04T14:22:01Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Scheme descends from ALGOL indeed, but didn't inherit the call-by-name semantics. 2016-05-04T15:59:00Z taylan: oh, Wiki says "call-by-need" aka lazy evaluation (i.e. what Haskell does) is basically call-by-name plus memoization. ok, I get it I guess... 2016-05-04T15:59:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-04T15:59:35Z taylan: so if I call foo(bar()), and the definition of foo looks like function(x){ x + x }, then bar will be called twice... 2016-05-04T16:00:37Z taylan: I'm not sure what exactly your teacher wants, but you can pass function pointers in C. you can't pass quoted expressions though. on the other hand, #define macros in C *only* take (implicitly) quoted expressions, so they're call-by-name even if you don't want them to be. 2016-05-04T16:00:37Z dcz: hmm 2016-05-04T16:01:00Z jcowan: dcz: The key to call-by-name is to pass a procedure that takes no arguments. 2016-05-04T16:01:10Z dcz: i did it like this what do you think ? 2016-05-04T16:01:54Z dcz: http://hastebin.com/xetogaxeto.pl 2016-05-04T16:02:21Z taylan: BTW .pl extension means Perl code, that should be .c 2016-05-04T16:03:00Z dcz: yeah hastebin makes extensions randomly without content dependent 2016-05-04T16:03:08Z taylan: dcz: what you've done there is called call-by-reference (at least on Wikipedia) 2016-05-04T16:03:13Z taylan: oh ok 2016-05-04T16:03:32Z taylan: maybe your teacher really meant call-by-reference. a reference and a name are similar concepts after all. 2016-05-04T16:03:45Z dcz: yeah it looks like call by refernce 2016-05-04T16:04:28Z dcz: the question is from 0 to 9 evaluate i*i+3*i -1 , use pass by name 2016-05-04T16:04:46Z taylan: I would guess that this is probably what your teacher wanted. actual call-by-name (going by Wikipedia's terminology) is kind of nonsensical in the context of C. most importantly, you can't create functions as first-class objects in C so... 2016-05-04T16:07:16Z dcz: okey thank you so much 2016-05-04T16:07:35Z taylan: dcz: does this code produce the result that you expect? I think the inside of the for-loop is kinda wrong but I didn't grasp it yet. 2016-05-04T16:08:10Z dcz: at the and main_local_variable and result becomes same 2016-05-04T16:08:19Z dcz: which is expected number 2016-05-04T16:08:51Z dcz: Result: 410 Main's local variable : 410 2016-05-04T16:09:31Z dcz: maybe the logic is wrong i dont know :D 2016-05-04T16:10:25Z taylan: seems right 2016-05-04T16:10:38Z taylan: M-: (let ((n 0)) (dotimes (i 10) (setq n (+ n (+ (* i i) (* i 3) -1)))) n) RET => 410 ^_^ 2016-05-04T16:11:03Z dcz: haha :D 2016-05-04T16:11:10Z dcz: it is that simple in scheme :D 2016-05-04T16:11:11Z taylan: it's a bit confusing because you use *number as a place to temporarily store the value of 'i' 2016-05-04T16:11:31Z dcz: yeah, actually i barely did that code ;d 2016-05-04T16:11:50Z nisstyre quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T16:12:17Z taylan: you could use 'i' directly, and wouldn't need 'tmpNumber', like: for (i = 0; i < 10; i++) { *number += i * i + 3 * i - 1; } 2016-05-04T16:12:28Z taylan: that's vastly simpler and does the same thing :) 2016-05-04T16:12:41Z dcz: okey i will try 2016-05-04T16:12:49Z dcz: btw can i ask another question ? 2016-05-04T16:12:49Z taylan: note the use of the += operator to add to the current value of a variable 2016-05-04T16:12:55Z taylan: sure 2016-05-04T16:13:07Z dcz: the teacher told us you can use thunk but whats that ? :D 2016-05-04T16:13:14Z taylan: (it's off topic but the channel isn't exactly very busy, and ##c is a baaad channel) 2016-05-04T16:13:44Z taylan: dcz: hmm, a thunk is a function that takes zero arguments. maybe your teacher really did want call-by-name O_o 2016-05-04T16:13:51Z dcz: :D 2016-05-04T16:14:04Z dcz: but it is possible in c ? 2016-05-04T16:14:13Z taylan: but one cannot create thunks on-the-fly in C. in C, all functions must be declared statically so they can be compiled in advance. 2016-05-04T16:14:33Z jcowan: Indeed, the word "thunk" was invented by Algol 60 implementers, and Scheme is the living descendant of Algol 60. 2016-05-04T16:15:17Z taylan: of course, you don't strictly *need* to create thunks at runtime for a simple problem like that one, but it's a pretty pointless exercise in C anyway 2016-05-04T16:15:41Z jcowan: That's why RnRS is called "The Revised^n Report on the _Algo_rithmic _L_anguage Scheme" 2016-05-04T16:15:57Z taylan: I need to now, be back in an hour or so 2016-05-04T16:16:08Z dcz: okey thanks taylan 2016-05-04T16:16:17Z nisstyre joined #scheme 2016-05-04T16:16:41Z dcz: jcowan what do you think of thunk in C? taylan said something but i didnt understand :D 2016-05-04T16:17:04Z jcowan: It's just a function with no arguments, passed to another function 2016-05-04T16:17:21Z dcz: like 2016-05-04T16:18:23Z dcz: add(int x) { x = x + 1; } sum (int y) { y = y + 2;} main() { sum (add); } 2016-05-04T16:18:24Z dcz: ? 2016-05-04T16:25:29Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-04T16:27:09Z greatscottttt: the add function shouldn't take any arguments and sum would take the add function as an argument 2016-05-04T16:31:24Z ecraven: manumanumanu: no, this one doesn't 2016-05-04T16:31:35Z ecraven: jcowan: they will all be "r7rs" 2016-05-04T16:31:57Z ecraven: mejja: thanks, I'd be glad about any pointers you can provide about better implementing the shims 2016-05-04T16:36:02Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-04T16:44:16Z dcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-04T16:44:56Z jcowan: ecraven: All of what will be R7RS? 2016-05-04T16:46:00Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-04T16:54:27Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T16:54:53Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-04T16:56:47Z ecraven: jcowan: the tests, the code itself seems to be fairly portable, I'll just make shims for non-R7RS schemes 2016-05-04T16:57:27Z jcowan nods. 2016-05-04T16:57:31Z jcowan: Sounds right. 2016-05-04T16:57:51Z jcowan: Grouping compilers with non-compilers on the same page is unfair to both 2016-05-04T16:58:30Z ecraven: yes, I need to make some javascript happen to make the page more interactive 2016-05-04T16:58:38Z ecraven: also, add about 15 more implementations :) 2016-05-04T17:00:33Z jcowan chuckles. 2016-05-04T17:00:55Z jcowan: I can try to get you an account on vrici.lojban.org, the box I use for Scheme testing, if it would save you some time. 2016-05-04T17:04:53Z pjb joined #scheme 2016-05-04T17:05:35Z jim quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T17:11:00Z ecraven: jcowan: any luck with stalin? 2016-05-04T17:11:23Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks for that offer, right now I'm still ok, I'll try to package any Scheme I meet for ArchLinux, so that's an added positive effect 2016-05-04T17:11:30Z jim joined #scheme 2016-05-04T17:11:43Z ecraven: there are quite a few on the benchmarks that I've never heard of.. Picrin? Huski? 2016-05-04T17:12:12Z jcowan: okay 2016-05-04T17:12:16Z jcowan: will try to work on Stalin later 2016-05-04T17:12:21Z jcowan: Picrin is pretty new 2016-05-04T17:13:37Z jcowan: Are you looking at http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards ? 2016-05-04T17:13:42Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T17:14:16Z ecraven: jcowan: don't worry too much about stalin, if it works, it works, if not, well... :) 2016-05-04T17:14:30Z jcowan nods. 2016-05-04T17:14:42Z ecraven: just working on bigloo, to get that list you gave me finalized 2016-05-04T17:15:37Z jcowan: Here's a list of Schemes I could not get to work on Linux: VX, Spark, Dream, KSM, Luna, MScheme, QScheme, Rhizome/pi, and VSCM. 2016-05-04T17:15:52Z jcowan: None of them performance-oriented AFAICT. 2016-05-04T17:18:39Z pepton2 joined #scheme 2016-05-04T17:20:24Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-04T17:21:08Z z0d: Stalin is R4RS, right? 2016-05-04T17:21:26Z jcowan: Yes. 2016-05-04T17:21:53Z jcowan: But benchmarks don't normally involve macros, dynamic-wind, or any of the other R4RS to R5RS differences. 2016-05-04T17:22:47Z ecraven: I've never even heard of any of those 2016-05-04T17:22:51Z ecraven: rhizome maybe 2016-05-04T17:26:31Z ggole quit 2016-05-04T17:28:08Z jcowan: All on the scheme-faq-standards page. 2016-05-04T17:28:11Z jcowan: with links 2016-05-04T17:29:09Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-05-04T17:34:55Z ecraven: hehe, and it seems I *did* forget to include racket :-D 2016-05-04T17:36:02Z zhcy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-04T17:36:25Z nanoz joined #scheme 2016-05-04T17:37:59Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T17:42:39Z badkins: ecraven: I'd love to see the Racket numbers in those benchmarks 2016-05-04T17:42:56Z ecraven: badkins: on it :) 2016-05-04T17:43:07Z ecraven: is bigloo supposed to be fast? 2016-05-04T17:43:16Z manumanumanu: yup, pretty much. 2016-05-04T17:43:33Z manumanumanu: pretty much fast, yes... 2016-05-04T17:43:59Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-05-04T17:44:39Z manumanumanu: What is it with the string benchmarks? The interpreted schemes all seem to do very well compared to the compiled ones. 2016-05-04T17:45:21Z logicmoo quit 2016-05-04T17:46:37Z logicmoo joined #scheme 2016-05-04T17:47:17Z ecraven: not sure, might be something I'm doing wrong, but maybe string manipulation is somehow easier for interpreters 2016-05-04T17:56:58Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-04T17:57:22Z ecraven: how do I know in which library an identifier is defined in plt-r6rs / racket? 2016-05-04T17:57:31Z ecraven: the documentation doesn't seem to mention this :-/ 2016-05-04T17:58:44Z logicmoo quit 2016-05-04T18:01:32Z dmiles_afk joined #scheme 2016-05-04T18:02:02Z manumanumanu: ecraven: which identifier? 2016-05-04T18:02:07Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T18:02:18Z ecraven: I'm just importing them from (racket) now 2016-05-04T18:02:26Z ecraven: flush-output, current-inexact-milliseconds 2016-05-04T18:02:58Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2016-05-04T18:03:53Z manumanumanu: ecraven: (rnrs io ports (6)) has flush-output-port 2016-05-04T18:03:55Z ecraven: sigh.. how do I get set-cdr and friends? 2016-05-04T18:04:17Z manumanumanu: ecraven: (rnrs mutable-pairs (6)) 2016-05-04T18:04:34Z manumanumanu: search in the documentation and it will show you the modules that has them defined 2016-05-04T18:04:43Z ecraven: on the html pages? 2016-05-04T18:05:03Z ecraven: because that's where I looked, they don't seem to describe the libraries :-/ 2016-05-04T18:05:22Z xieyuheng: see an example usage of my {} macro in pattern match :: http://img.vim-cn.com/17/2c791f7b4ac1c7c55fde714715ad3f47804068.png 2016-05-04T18:05:32Z manumanumanu: ecraven: https://docs.racket-lang.org/search/index.html?q=set-cdr 2016-05-04T18:06:17Z ecraven: manumanumanu: any idea why `do' would be unbound? I do import (rnrs base) 2016-05-04T18:07:07Z manumanumanu: ecraven: (rnrs control (6)) ? 2016-05-04T18:07:21Z ecraven: wow, I'll need to import a lot :-/ 2016-05-04T18:07:30Z ecraven: is there an (rnrs all)? 2016-05-04T18:08:20Z jcowan: That's (rnrs) 2016-05-04T18:08:54Z jcowan: however, there is no R7RS analogue, because its exact meaning would be undefined. 2016-05-04T18:09:03Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks 2016-05-04T18:09:07Z madmuppet006 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T18:09:12Z ecraven: any idea how to get racket to read | for symbols in input? 2016-05-04T18:10:18Z jcowan: Racket understands |...| in Racket mode, but in R6RS mode it has to disable it, thanks to preposterous MUSTard 2016-05-04T18:10:28Z ecraven: jcowan: no way to re-enable it? 2016-05-04T18:10:42Z jcowan: maybe ask on #racket 2016-05-04T18:10:51Z ecraven: thanks, doing that now :) 2016-05-04T18:10:58Z jcowan: My impression is that Racketeers don't care about R6RS very much. 2016-05-04T18:11:03Z ecraven: I should just adapt the test, all those symbols are numbers anyway 2016-05-04T18:11:24Z ecraven: (list '|123| '|53| '|343| ...) 2016-05-04T18:11:41Z jcowan: yeah, x123, x53, x343 would do as well 2016-05-04T18:12:12Z ecraven: but the rest seems to run ok 2016-05-04T18:12:18Z jcowan: The only escapes from R6RS rigidity are #! tokens and user-written libraries 2016-05-04T18:12:48Z ecraven: I'll look into using actual racket, not plt-r6rs, later 2016-05-04T18:13:14Z jcowan: Unlikely to be slower 2016-05-04T18:14:42Z ecraven: hm.. expected a `module' declaration.. I don't know enough racket :-/ 2016-05-04T18:15:54Z jcowan: Wracket doesn't wrap code, it just prefixes it 2016-05-04T18:16:10Z ecraven: #lang racket solves this, it seems 2016-05-04T18:19:51Z ecraven: now I don't have mutable pairs again :-/ 2016-05-04T18:21:29Z manumanumanu: ecraven: (rnrs mutable-pairs (6)) 2016-05-04T18:21:41Z ecraven: manumanumanu: yes, but how do I import that in #lang racket? 2016-05-04T18:21:55Z jcowan: racket's pairs are always immutable 2016-05-04T18:22:03Z jcowan: you have to use mpairs, which are disjoint from pairs. 2016-05-04T18:22:15Z ecraven: jcowan: not an option.. so those tests will just fail on racket 2016-05-04T18:22:43Z jcowan: Run as r6rs instead and just remove the ||s, which BTW are not in R6RS anyway. 2016-05-04T18:22:56Z oskarth joined #scheme 2016-05-04T18:23:01Z jcowan: Racket should be called RINS 2016-05-04T18:24:50Z manumanumanu: ecraven: you could maybe redefine pairs and cons to be mpairs? That probably has all sorts of weird effects though 2016-05-04T18:25:04Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2016-05-04T18:25:04Z nisstyre joined #scheme 2016-05-04T18:25:32Z ecraven: aren't you forbidden to redefine exported bindings? 2016-05-04T18:25:47Z ecraven: I just switched from plt-r6rs to racket, maybe I should switch back :) 2016-05-04T18:26:34Z manumanumanu: ecraven: (define cons mcons) works just fine 2016-05-04T18:28:20Z manumanumanu: but i don't think it'll make a very nice benchmark. racket probably does some optimizations knowing a cons is immutable, and using r6rs or mcons might be slower. 2016-05-04T18:29:01Z ecraven: does anyone know how to convert a bstring into a string in bigloo? 2016-05-04T18:29:33Z ecraven: ah, seems to work automatically 2016-05-04T18:31:59Z ecraven is learning a lot about the different implementations :) 2016-05-04T18:33:04Z dmiles joined #scheme 2016-05-04T18:39:26Z jcowan: Write it down and put it on the wiki, please 2016-05-04T18:43:24Z ecraven: jcowan: I think I'll give up on SCM for now :-/ 2016-05-04T18:45:23Z jcowan: Suits. 2016-05-04T18:45:32Z jcowan: I don't think it's very popular these days. 2016-05-04T18:45:51Z jcowan: though it certainly used to be the go-to Scheme for people who couldn't run MIT 2016-05-04T18:50:44Z ecraven: jcowan: there are several problems: it expects a bunch of .c and .h files in the current directory when compiling. I cannot name a function main, as it already defines its own main (all the main test functions are called main) 2016-05-04T18:51:58Z ecraven: interesting, bigloo and racket are fast 2016-05-04T18:52:17Z ecraven: not finished yet, but racket is fast indeed 2016-05-04T18:52:31Z ecraven: (not chez-fast, but gambit or mit fast) 2016-05-04T18:52:36Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-04T18:57:18Z manumanumanu: ecraven: is that surprising? I have always found racket quite fast. there are some smart people working on it as well :) 2016-05-04T18:57:36Z ecraven: manumanumanu: I've found it very slow, but then I know so little about it, I probably did something very wrong 2016-05-04T18:57:47Z manumanumanu: and they have probably done away with some things that make scheme slow 2016-05-04T19:01:38Z rx80 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T19:02:08Z rx80 joined #scheme 2016-05-04T19:02:14Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2016-05-04T19:02:26Z manumanumanu: ecraven: did you ever use it outside drracket? :) 2016-05-04T19:02:30Z ecraven: yes 2016-05-04T19:02:40Z ecraven: drracket seems unbearably slow to me :) 2016-05-04T19:03:59Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-04T19:04:23Z manumanumanu: ecraven: yup. whenever a project goes above 400loc I start having problems with it as well. Especially using typed racket. 2016-05-04T19:05:01Z manumanumanu: but then you can disable background expansion. But once you are there you are better of in emacs 2016-05-04T19:05:34Z ecraven: I love SLIME with MIT/GNU Scheme, it's very fast, and gives me everything I need :) 2016-05-04T19:05:39Z lolcow is now known as leppie 2016-05-04T19:07:51Z manumanumanu: never used slime. ill stay with geiser 2016-05-04T19:08:10Z ecraven: geiser is nice, but it hasn't caught up with SLIME yet 2016-05-04T19:08:17Z ecraven: though completion of local bindings is very cool! 2016-05-04T19:08:27Z jcowan: Let the meta-wars commence! 2016-05-04T19:08:53Z ecraven: jcowan: I use SLIME, and am contributing to geiser where I can, so I'm not that prejudiced :) 2016-05-04T19:09:04Z wasamasa: I can't imagine how this is advanced considering how capf just completes all I need for elisp 2016-05-04T19:09:16Z wasamasa: clearly I need to program more scheme to feel the pain! 2016-05-04T19:09:22Z wasamasa hums Chocolate Rain 2016-05-04T19:22:44Z badkins: ecraven: thanks for putting in the effort to add Racket - can't wait for the numbers. Good to hear it seems relatively fast though :) 2016-05-04T19:23:32Z ecraven: almost done :) 2016-05-04T19:32:05Z ecraven: http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/scheme-benchmark-r7rs.html 2016-05-04T19:32:10Z manumanumanu: ecraven: cool! racket was pretty darn fast 2016-05-04T19:32:57Z ecraven: much faster than I suspected... and these bunchmarks are quite a few, so it's not just by chance 2016-05-04T19:49:06Z jcowan: bunchmarks is good 2016-05-04T19:49:53Z ecraven: :) 2016-05-04T19:51:24Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-04T19:57:11Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-04T20:03:54Z badkins: I think that 2nd benchmark is a significant indicator. I didn't realize MIT Scheme was that fast - I thought it only had an interpreter. 2016-05-04T20:05:34Z ecraven: badkins: it has a very good (and well-written) native compiler 2016-05-04T20:06:56Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2016-05-04T20:07:16Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-04T20:09:47Z badkins: ecraven: is it actively being developed? 9.2 looks like it's about two years old and the tasks page as an item that "should be completed by" 2009 2016-05-04T20:09:56Z wasamasa: where's chibi? 2016-05-04T20:10:18Z wasamasa: I only noticed it's absent after checking for the candidate with the longest time spent overall 2016-05-04T20:11:29Z jcowan: Chibi would by no means be the slowest 2016-05-04T20:11:33Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-04T20:12:18Z jcowan: badkins: In Schemeworld that is not reliable: things often go on for a long time behind the scenes before there is a public release. Many Schemes, though open source, are cathedrals. 2016-05-04T20:12:20Z wasamasa: and why is mit-scheme listed thrice in the bv2string benchmark? 2016-05-04T20:13:29Z badkins: jcowan: I suppose, but the page also says, "We also plan to finish support for R5RS..." which gives the impression of "staleness" 2016-05-04T20:13:48Z jcowan nods. 2016-05-04T20:14:04Z jcowan: As opposed to Chicken, which does not plan to finish support for R5RS. :-) 2016-05-04T20:15:03Z ecraven: badkins: yes, it's active, git commits every few weeks 2016-05-04T20:15:06Z ecraven: but slow :-/ 2016-05-04T20:15:13Z ecraven: wasamasa: just rerunning it 2016-05-04T20:15:15Z lalex: I never knew python has such useless closures - oh boy 2016-05-04T20:15:23Z ecraven: but I abort the tests after 5 minutes, and chibi goes over that limit often 2016-05-04T20:15:30Z wasamasa: ._. 2016-05-04T20:15:37Z qu1j0t3: lalex: it's tco isn't so hot either ;) 2016-05-04T20:15:39Z ecraven: wasamasa: an error, just rerunning it 2016-05-04T20:15:42Z badkins: ecraven: oh - the MIT Scheme page didn't even mention a git repo 2016-05-04T20:15:45Z ecraven: I ran that a couple times by hand 2016-05-04T20:15:54Z lalex: qu1j0t3: lol, you mean the non existing one? 2016-05-04T20:15:55Z ecraven: badkins: on savannah.nongnu.org, I think 2016-05-04T20:15:59Z qu1j0t3: lalex: :) 2016-05-04T20:16:18Z lalex: compared to Lua it's a quite weak language. bummer there is almost no way around it, it has quite an extensive standard lib 2016-05-04T20:16:18Z ecraven: badkins: it is a very old system, that has survived quite a few reports 2016-05-04T20:17:57Z wasamasa is now known as {{{ 2016-05-04T20:18:14Z lalex: }}} 2016-05-04T20:18:21Z {{{ is now known as }}} 2016-05-04T20:18:26Z }}} is now known as wasamasa 2016-05-04T20:18:31Z lalex: lol 2016-05-04T20:18:33Z ecraven: vicare is still missing 2016-05-04T20:20:56Z wasamasa: let's write a scheme compiler that recognizes benchmarks and eliminates them 2016-05-04T20:21:06Z ecraven: :) 2016-05-04T20:21:22Z ecraven: maybe ask VW how to do that :) 2016-05-04T20:21:26Z wasamasa: lol 2016-05-04T20:21:42Z wasamasa: I recall reading about GCC optimizing loops away that were used for debugging/benching purposes 2016-05-04T20:23:47Z jcowan: lalex: what is weak compared to Lua? 2016-05-04T20:24:39Z lalex: jcowan: Lua is closer to scheme than python. looking at the closures of python with the readonly bound variables and missing TCO. 2016-05-04T20:24:56Z lalex: not even block scopes 2016-05-04T20:24:59Z jcowan: Oh, weak in that sense. 2016-05-04T20:27:09Z oskarth quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-04T20:36:53Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-04T20:38:22Z qu1j0t3: wasamasa: oh, yes, it will :D 2016-05-04T20:38:42Z qu1j0t3: wasamasa: people used to cheat in the Dhrystone benchmark by having compilers recognise it. 2016-05-04T20:38:49Z wasamasa: ._. 2016-05-04T20:38:52Z qu1j0t3: wasamasa: back when that stupid benchmark was still taken seriously. 2016-05-04T20:39:02Z qu1j0t3: it's a worthless benchmark anyway, cheats or not. 2016-05-04T20:39:11Z wasamasa: who would ever take a benchmark with that spelling seriously 2016-05-04T20:39:26Z qu1j0t3: it was obviously mimicking Whetstone, the floating point benchmark. 2016-05-04T20:39:35Z qu1j0t3: Dhrystone was about strings mostly. Badly designed. 2016-05-04T20:40:16Z qu1j0t3: but there was a pre-www scandal over compilers being 'dhrystone optimised'. 2016-05-04T20:40:24Z qu1j0t3: Usenet might have stuff on that 2016-05-04T20:40:54Z qu1j0t3: easier to do when C compilers were all closed and owned by vendors 2016-05-04T20:42:00Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-04T20:42:08Z wasamasa: I'm not sure how to feel about a silly joke not being too far off the mark 2016-05-04T20:44:20Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T20:44:36Z karswell joined #scheme 2016-05-04T20:46:32Z qu1j0t3: Also reminiscent of Thompson, Reflections on Trusting Trust? https://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/hh/thompson/trust.html 2016-05-04T20:47:01Z qu1j0t3: also the VW emissions testing scandal ;-) 2016-05-04T20:54:54Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:02:11Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:02:37Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2016-05-04T21:07:24Z kuribas joined #scheme 2016-05-04T21:08:47Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/CompilerAvailable <-- list of Schemes with compilers of one kind or another 2016-05-04T21:08:56Z jcowan: please tell me whatever I have missed 2016-05-04T21:09:06Z ecraven: jcowan: MIT has a native compiler 2016-05-04T21:09:30Z ecraven: I think racket compiles VM bytecode to native code pieces 2016-05-04T21:09:32Z jcowan: thanks, obvs I knew that, just an oversight 2016-05-04T21:09:41Z ecraven: but that's a good list for me to follow :) 2016-05-04T21:09:48Z ecraven: right, I forgot vicare again :-/ 2016-05-04T21:09:58Z jcowan: oh, right 2016-05-04T21:12:04Z evhan usually forgets Vicare... 2016-05-04T21:18:27Z nanoz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:20:22Z z0d: ecraven: I don't see Rabbit <-: 2016-05-04T21:21:34Z z0d: ecraven: also, SISC, http://sisc-scheme.org/ 2016-05-04T21:21:47Z jcowan: PDP-10 emulation is snappier these days than actual PDP-10 hardware ever was. 2016-05-04T21:21:52Z jcowan: SISC is a pure interpreter AFAIK 2016-05-04T21:22:49Z ecraven: sisc is java, right? 2016-05-04T21:22:55Z ecraven: z0d: a lot are missing 2016-05-04T21:23:05Z ecraven: ah, now where does vicare keep its time functions ;-/ 2016-05-04T21:23:30Z z0d: ecraven: sorry, I meant to address jcowan 2016-05-04T21:24:35Z jcowan: SISC is written in Java but does not AFAIK compile to Java bytecodes 2016-05-04T21:26:57Z jcowan: tried to install Calysto but failed 2016-05-04T21:28:51Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:29:53Z ecraven: jcowan: do you want to add MIT/GNU Scheme to the native compiling Schemes on that wiki page? 2016-05-04T21:29:54Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:29:59Z ecraven: I don't think I have an account there 2016-05-04T21:31:34Z jcowan: ecraven: submitted 2016-05-04T21:32:14Z jcowan: Might be interesting to test Owl Lisp on benchmarks not involving mutation 2016-05-04T21:34:36Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Anywhere.) 2016-05-06T05:24:24Z m0li joined #scheme 2016-05-06T05:24:29Z aries_liuxueyang joined #scheme 2016-05-06T05:24:41Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-06T05:25:14Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T05:27:10Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2016-05-06T06:55:49Z wasamasa: a port to CHICKEN for easier installation? 2016-05-06T06:56:09Z ecraven: wasamasa: chicken-install stalin 2016-05-06T06:56:12Z z0d: using CHICKEN to bootstrap Stalin maybe? 2016-05-06T06:56:17Z z0d: oh 2016-05-06T06:56:44Z ecraven: installs /usr/bin/chicken-stalin :) 2016-05-06T06:57:01Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-06T06:57:54Z wasamasa: I guess that's a yes 2016-05-06T06:58:04Z z0d: must be an usurper animal 2016-05-06T06:59:06Z ecraven: hm.. what kind of macro system does stalin support? 2016-05-06T06:59:10Z ecraven: need to define when/unless 2016-05-06T06:59:42Z wasamasa: as it's r4rs, unhygienic macros? 2016-05-06T07:00:16Z wasamasa: "A related version is r3.99rs which is r4rs without macros." 2016-05-06T07:00:44Z tmtwd joined #scheme 2016-05-06T07:00:49Z wasamasa: hm: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r4rs_12.html#SEC77 2016-05-06T07:02:21Z wasamasa: looks like macros are not a part of it actually... 2016-05-06T07:02:40Z ecraven: stalin seems to have (define-macro (lambda (form expander) ...)) 2016-05-06T07:06:04Z ecraven: hm.. not sure whether this is correct, but Bones seems to be even faster than chez benchmark browse :) http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/scheme-benchmark-r7rs.html 2016-05-06T07:07:54Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T07:09:27Z amgarching joined #scheme 2016-05-06T07:12:11Z logicmoo joined #scheme 2016-05-06T07:12:12Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T07:13:21Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-06T07:16:14Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-06T07:21:20Z mokuso quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-06T07:25:51Z amgarching quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-06T07:27:03Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-06T07:29:44Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-05-06T07:30:12Z tos-1 joined #scheme 2016-05-06T07:31:49Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T07:32:16Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-06T07:32:42Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-06T07:34:58Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, you should include URLs for all the implementations tested :) 2016-05-06T07:35:17Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: good point, I wanted to do that, then forgot :) 2016-05-06T07:35:26Z groovy2shoes: also, if I didn't say this last time I saw it, this is frakking great :) thanks a bunch for putting this together 2016-05-06T07:35:44Z groovy2shoes: hopefully I can get Tiny7 complete enough to compete soon 2016-05-06T07:35:58Z groovy2shoes: would be cool to see some memory-usage benchmarks, as well 2016-05-06T07:36:01Z ecraven: it's up to you to actually interpret the numbers, and some of it is wildly unfair (interpreters vs. native compilers). 2016-05-06T07:36:06Z ecraven: but at least the numbers are there 2016-05-06T07:36:16Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: I've been thinking about that, but not sure on how to do that in a useful way 2016-05-06T07:36:22Z ecraven: show maximum memory consumption? 2016-05-06T07:36:39Z ecraven: also, memory is even more uncomparable.. racket takes much more memory, but it also provides much more stuff 2016-05-06T07:37:24Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-06T07:38:55Z ggole joined #scheme 2016-05-06T07:43:12Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, I don't see how that makes racket incomparable to any other system, especially given that if you '#lang r7rs', you only get r7rs, same as (and possibly less than) anyone else 2016-05-06T07:47:51Z ecraven: ah, I don't know enough about Racket (or most other Schemes) it seems :) 2016-05-06T07:48:06Z ecraven: I'll see what I can do, gnu time includes maximum memory consumption 2016-05-06T07:48:29Z groovy2shoes: oh sweet 2016-05-06T07:48:35Z groovy2shoes: is that physical or virtual memory? 2016-05-06T07:49:37Z ecraven: Maximum resident set size of the process during its lifetime, in Kbytes. 2016-05-06T07:49:40Z ecraven: that seems useful, right? 2016-05-06T07:50:03Z ecraven: there's a lot of other measurements :) get gnu time, man time 2016-05-06T07:50:39Z groovy2shoes: and there's always `egrep '^Vm\w+:' /proc/$PID/status` ;) 2016-05-06T07:52:22Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: github now has links to all implementations, also added sagittarius and picrin (which don't work quite yet) 2016-05-06T07:52:57Z groovy2shoes: sweet! 2016-05-06T07:53:30Z ecraven: just need to get the preludes for those two done, mostly to implement showing the implementation version :) 2016-05-06T07:55:44Z groovy2shoes: I'd like to see a chart that included '%M %t %F %R %c %w', though if you can swing it, I'd like to see Max and Avg VSS in addition to RSS, as well as SHR 2016-05-06T07:57:09Z groovy2shoes: I wonder if %K is the Avg VSS... I'll have to experiment a bit to find out 2016-05-06T07:58:17Z groovy2shoes: looks like Avg SHR would be %X, or at least that might be close enough 2016-05-06T07:59:55Z groovy2shoes: such a bitch and a half to get memory stats on Linux -_- 2016-05-06T08:03:44Z wismas joined #scheme 2016-05-06T08:06:46Z ecraven: where is it easier/ 2016-05-06T08:06:50Z groovy2shoes: I always want to see a matrix like (Virtual_max, Virtual_avg, Resident_max, Resident_avg, Swap_max, Swap_avg) × (Total_total, Total_shared, Total_unshared, Text_total, Text_shared, Text_unshared, Data_total, Data_shared, Data_unshared, Stack_total, Stack_shared, Stack_unshared) along with major/minor page fault stats and voluntary/involuntary context switch stats 2016-05-06T08:07:08Z groovy2shoes: I don't know if it's easier anywhere else, that doesn't mean it's not a pain in the ass on Linux :p 2016-05-06T08:07:20Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: well, some of the benchmarks are very short, also, it all depends on what else is running on the benchmarking machine 2016-05-06T08:07:58Z groovy2shoes: well, I suppose you'd want to run the benchmarks in a very controlled environment 2016-05-06T08:08:13Z emmanueloga_ joined #scheme 2016-05-06T08:08:35Z groovy2shoes: like... boot vmlinuz init=/opt/ecraven/r7rs-bench/bench 2016-05-06T08:08:36Z groovy2shoes: lol 2016-05-06T08:09:04Z ecraven: hehe, unlikely that will even remotely work 2016-05-06T08:09:35Z francoisk joined #scheme 2016-05-06T08:09:40Z emmanueloga quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-06T08:09:41Z groovy2shoes: yeah, I just mean that you can make it so it's basically the only thing running 2016-05-06T08:09:42Z emmanueloga_ is now known as emmanueloga 2016-05-06T08:10:04Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-06T08:10:25Z ecraven: yea, but that's a lot of work :-/ I'm just running the chez benchmark 5 times in succession, to see how different the results are 2016-05-06T08:10:50Z groovy2shoes: other things I'd like to see in benchmarks is how well the implementations scale... could possibly be done by setting up virtual machines with successively faster processors, but everything else the same... and then again for number of cores 2016-05-06T08:11:21Z groovy2shoes: I'm not trying to say your script is worthless in the least -- as I said, I think it's awesome and I'm grateful that you made it 2016-05-06T08:11:35Z ecraven: well, it could be used for that, if someone did all the vm setup around it 2016-05-06T08:11:46Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T08:11:51Z ecraven: also, I'm trying to package all the schemes I'm using for arch linux, so at least there it will be mostly reproducible 2016-05-06T08:11:56Z groovy2shoes: but I'm lamenting that benchmarks often don't get far past the "this is how fast these programs were on my machine" :S 2016-05-06T08:11:58Z ecraven: maybe nixos would have been better 2016-05-06T08:12:05Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: yea 2016-05-06T08:12:19Z z0d: or you can use Docker 2016-05-06T08:12:32Z groovy2shoes: I mean, I understand that's a ton of work just for some mildly useful numbers, but still :) 2016-05-06T08:12:41Z groovy2shoes: NO! NO DOCKER 2016-05-06T08:12:46Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-06T08:12:51Z groovy2shoes: GET OUT 2016-05-06T08:12:55Z groovy2shoes: jk 2016-05-06T08:12:59Z ecraven: z0d: I don't know much about this, but nixos seems by far the better choice for reproducible results 2016-05-06T08:13:00Z groovy2shoes: that's an option 2016-05-06T08:13:02Z z0d: nowadays I run Emacs, Guile and SBCL as a Docker container 2016-05-06T08:13:09Z ecraven: maybe guixsd 2016-05-06T08:13:22Z ecraven: any stalinists here? 2016-05-06T08:13:27Z groovy2shoes: guix seems like it would be the most appropriate, all things considered ;) 2016-05-06T08:13:42Z ecraven: I'm having a very hard time getting stalin to do useful things with the benchmarks... if it compiles them at all, it is rather slow 2016-05-06T08:13:49Z z0d: yeah, but if you don't want to install a new OS, Docker might be a better choice 2016-05-06T08:13:58Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: yea, but last time I checked, nixos was far better (at least for web stuff) 2016-05-06T08:13:59Z groovy2shoes: nah, I generally preferred Kruschev's post-Stalin reforms 2016-05-06T08:14:29Z groovy2shoes: I haven't used either, to be honest 2016-05-06T08:14:52Z groovy2shoes: I took one look at the sample build script in the Guix documentation and promptly closed the tab :p 2016-05-06T08:14:55Z ecraven: hm.. is huski actually husk? the scheme-on-haskell? 2016-05-06T08:15:04Z ecraven: nixos is very much ok 2016-05-06T08:15:17Z ecraven: the mostly-self-documenting part is very nice too 2016-05-06T08:15:32Z ecraven: guixsd would be scheme, which is awesome just in itself :) 2016-05-06T08:15:34Z z0d: I installed guix the other day 2016-05-06T08:15:41Z groovy2shoes: I sometimes forget that the Clinger Clause doesn't tend to extend past the report and into Scheme programs ;) 2016-05-06T08:15:56Z z0d: not because of the transactional package manager, but because it's pretty much all Scheme 2016-05-06T08:16:01Z ecraven: clinger clause? 2016-05-06T08:16:32Z ecraven: z0d: did you hear? they're implementing a bash emulation, in order to get rid of the bash binary :) 2016-05-06T08:16:47Z groovy2shoes: "Programming languages should be designed not by piling feature on top of feature, but by removing the weaknesses and restrictions that make additional features appear necessary." 2016-05-06T08:17:20Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: well, neither r6rs nor r7rs were putting that clause in the first place, it seems to me :-/ 2016-05-06T08:17:29Z br0kenman joined #scheme 2016-05-06T08:17:38Z groovy2shoes: -- William D. Clinger, RnRS where 3 ≤ n < 6, n = 7 2016-05-06T08:17:54Z ski: perhaps they saw it as a weakness or restriction, fit for removal .. 2016-05-06T08:19:34Z groovy2shoes: it's in R7RS 2016-05-06T08:19:55Z groovy2shoes: it's also on the back cover for the hardcopy version of R6RS, but it makes me scoff every time I read it :p 2016-05-06T08:20:34Z ecraven: well, to be honest, there's a lot of useful stuff in R7RS-small, but it could well be moved to a library, if you really wanted to be minimal :-/ 2016-05-06T08:20:49Z groovy2shoes: I agree completely 2016-05-06T08:20:52Z ecraven: but then, it'd be great if there were more interoperability between the schemes 2016-05-06T08:21:05Z ecraven: though I'm actually surprised how well the benchmarks work on all those different schemes 2016-05-06T08:21:20Z ecraven: everything from not-even-r5rs through r6rs to almost-completely-r7rs 2016-05-06T08:21:22Z groovy2shoes: I welcome the module system and the user-definable types, but for the most part I think the additions should've been left to the large language 2016-05-06T08:21:58Z groovy2shoes: oh, the new comment syntax is pretty nice, too 2016-05-06T08:22:25Z groovy2shoes: but when and unless are trivially definable with syntax-rules, and case-lambda isn't terribly difficult, either 2016-05-06T08:22:41Z ecraven: the library/module thing was just plain necessary, and it's good to have something standardized 2016-05-06T08:22:53Z ecraven: comment is cool :) 2016-05-06T08:23:01Z ecraven: and you are completely right about the macros 2016-05-06T08:23:10Z groovy2shoes: I've got a syntax transformer for case-lambda that's 11 lines 2016-05-06T08:23:22Z groovy2shoes: (and much less complicated than the one given in the report) 2016-05-06T08:23:48Z groovy2shoes: when and unless are 3 lines apiece 2016-05-06T08:24:11Z ecraven: they aren't even too bad in one line :p 2016-05-06T08:24:26Z ecraven: but those are exactly the things that might have been left for r7rs-large 2016-05-06T08:24:26Z groovy2shoes: some other stuff, too, like the extensions of write to detect cyclic and shared structure, I think, would've been better off in the large language 2016-05-06T08:25:12Z groovy2shoes: I also fail to see how any implementation would manage to come up with a when or unless that's incompatible with any other's 2016-05-06T08:25:37Z groovy2shoes: I mean, they're very traditional already 2016-05-06T08:26:03Z ecraven: agreed 2016-05-06T08:26:36Z ecraven: I also preferred the name `let-fluid' over `parameterize' (to me, it is a form of let) 2016-05-06T08:26:40Z groovy2shoes: I have mixed feelings about the reader being able to accept shared structure... on the one hand, there wasn't any other way to do that at read time before... on the other hand, is it really necessary in the first place? and couldn't that have been left for the large language as well? 2016-05-06T08:26:58Z ecraven: but I'm glad that I recently found out the setters for parameters weren't included 2016-05-06T08:27:18Z ski thought `parameterize' was different than `let-fluid' .. 2016-05-06T08:27:25Z groovy2shoes: I can agree with that, but that's fairly minor, in my opinion... just an aesthetic thing 2016-05-06T08:27:33Z ecraven: ski: I'm ok with the semantics, just the actual name I don't like :) 2016-05-06T08:27:35Z ecraven: yes 2016-05-06T08:28:27Z ecraven: also, in light of this benchmarking, I'd advocate for implementation-name and implementation-version directly in r8rs :) mandatory! 2016-05-06T08:28:27Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-06T08:28:48Z groovy2shoes: but yeah, I like let-fluid better as well... and I would've liked if combination weren't overloaded as "dereference parameter" in addition to "apply procedure" and "special form" already 2016-05-06T08:29:00Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: exactly! 2016-05-06T08:29:09Z groovy2shoes: would prefer it had some sort of "syntax" that made it more clear that it were a parameter rather than a procedure 2016-05-06T08:29:12Z ecraven: let-fluid and fluid are nice enough names 2016-05-06T08:29:24Z ecraven: and it'd be much easier to actually find all places where a fluid is used 2016-05-06T08:29:31Z groovy2shoes: not to mention, they're traditional names 2016-05-06T08:29:34Z ecraven: but it's probably too late for this discussion :-/ 2016-05-06T08:29:43Z groovy2shoes: and now "parameter" is an overloaded term in the report, as well 2016-05-06T08:29:48Z ecraven: ah, reminds me of scheme48, I should add that too 2016-05-06T08:29:53Z ski agrees with it being better not being a procedure 2016-05-06T08:30:28Z groovy2shoes: I'm okay with it being implemented via procedures under the covers, or any other way, really, but semantically they ought to be distinct 2016-05-06T08:30:37Z ski: i'll have to say that "fluid" has the advantage of being less familiar 2016-05-06T08:30:44Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2016-05-06T08:30:59Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: (define (fluid foo) (foo)) is good enough, and most compilers can probably inline this 2016-05-06T08:31:01Z groovy2shoes: currently, parameters are, semantically-speaking, impure procedures 2016-05-06T08:31:07Z ecraven: that's what I'm doing, anyway :D 2016-05-06T08:31:41Z groovy2shoes: ski, fluid is (was?) pretty traditional... R1RS had fluid variables 2016-05-06T08:32:05Z ski: groovy2shoes : yes, but i mean to someone not already familiar to the concept/name 2016-05-06T08:32:47Z groovy2shoes: ah, yeah 2016-05-06T08:33:17Z ecraven: ok, so after 4 runs of the entire chez benchmark, there's almost no variation 2016-05-06T08:33:56Z kuribas joined #scheme 2016-05-06T08:34:48Z ski: it's similar to e.g. "monad" being better than "sequencable". less conceptual baggage that you have to fight 2016-05-06T08:37:14Z groovy2shoes: R1RS even had reader syntax for `(fluid foo)`: `●foo` 2016-05-06T08:37:36Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-06T08:37:40Z ecraven: some day I'll need to read all the rnrs where n < 4 2016-05-06T08:37:42Z groovy2shoes: but I doubt fluid variables are common enough to justify such a thing nowadays 2016-05-06T08:38:15Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: MIT/GNU Scheme for example has a *lot* of fluids (now parameters) for modifying the reader and printer behaviour 2016-05-06T08:38:37Z groovy2shoes: one of the few things they're good for, imo 2016-05-06T08:38:55Z ecraven: well, I use them for the current database in web code, for example 2016-05-06T08:39:08Z groovy2shoes: along with installing things like exception handlers, etc. 2016-05-06T08:39:10Z ecraven: stuff that is conceptually global, but shouldn't really be :) 2016-05-06T08:39:52Z groovy2shoes: not saying they're never useful, just saying I don't think people use them so often that typing 'fluid' as opposed to a reader macro is such a big deal :) 2016-05-06T08:40:01Z ecraven: yes, I agree 2016-05-06T08:40:14Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-06T08:41:02Z groovy2shoes: given the recent history of the report, it'd probably wind up being something dumb like #fluid foo anyway, saving a whopping one keystroke 2016-05-06T08:41:49Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T08:41:56Z DerGuteM1 is now known as DerGuteMoritz 2016-05-06T08:42:13Z ecraven: hm.. scheme48 is the first scheme I've seen that doesn't just take a filename to execute as a parameter :-/ 2016-05-06T08:42:35Z groovy2shoes: I love scheme48, but damn does it do some weird shit 2016-05-06T08:42:47Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: how do I run a .scm file in it? 2016-05-06T08:42:59Z ecraven: I can't redirect stdin, I want it to read some data from another file 2016-05-06T08:44:33Z AlexDenisov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T08:44:52Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-06T08:46:40Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, I have no idea, tbh 2016-05-06T08:46:54Z groovy2shoes: I've always just used it from cmuscheme.el 2016-05-06T08:47:53Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-06T08:48:08Z ecraven: maybe I'll need to pipe (with-input-from-file "input" (lambda () (load "actual-code"))) into it :-/ 2016-05-06T08:48:36Z lloda joined #scheme 2016-05-06T08:51:05Z turbopape joined #scheme 2016-05-06T08:51:13Z nisstyre quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T08:52:23Z ecraven: ok, not very nice, but that seems to work 2016-05-06T08:54:13Z Crashlog joined #scheme 2016-05-06T09:01:09Z ecraven: now I'm running out of colours for implementations :-/ 2016-05-06T09:03:08Z z0d: all 16.7 million is gone? :-P 2016-05-06T09:04:16Z z0d: there's color generator in circe (Elisp code), which tries to pick colors "far" from each other 2016-05-06T09:04:49Z ecraven: :) they have to look nice too! 2016-05-06T09:05:22Z z0d: https://github.com/jorgenschaefer/circe/blob/master/circe-color-nicks.el 2016-05-06T09:05:28Z ski . o O ( use a color out of space ? ) 2016-05-06T09:05:29Z z0d: oh, then you need to add some AI <-: 2016-05-06T09:05:48Z ecraven: Has anyone installed larceny system-wide? 2016-05-06T09:06:08Z z0d: also this: https://www.w3.org/TR/2013/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20130905/G18 2016-05-06T09:06:36Z ecraven: really the prize for most useless procedure in r7rs must go to `square' 2016-05-06T09:06:40Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, http://hastebin.com/vegohohaxi.txt 2016-05-06T09:07:05Z ecraven: come on, really? `error' is not defined in scheme48?? 2016-05-06T09:07:49Z groovy2shoes: it is, but you have to import the big-util package and I don't remember how to do that nor feel like looking it up 2016-05-06T09:08:00Z ecraven: probably ,open 2016-05-06T09:08:09Z groovy2shoes: again, shit's quirky 2016-05-06T09:08:39Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T09:08:43Z ecraven: it also cannot be interrupted with C-c, so I can't properly abort the tests :-/ 2016-05-06T09:09:01Z groovy2shoes: it can't be interrupted while running a FASL image? 2016-05-06T09:09:33Z ecraven: maybe while `load'-ing a file? 2016-05-06T09:09:54Z groovy2shoes: ah, possibly 2016-05-06T09:10:08Z ecraven: as the entire test + its execution is part of that one file, that might be the problem 2016-05-06T09:10:15Z groovy2shoes: well, it shouldn't be loading at that point, it should be compiled bytecode running on the VM 2016-05-06T09:10:19Z ecraven: thanks for big-utils, that seems to help 2016-05-06T09:10:29Z ecraven: indeed, but it's all "inside" the load 2016-05-06T09:10:31Z groovy2shoes: (in my paste, I mean) 2016-05-06T09:10:47Z ecraven: paste? 2016-05-06T09:10:53Z groovy2shoes: http://hastebin.com/vegohohaxi.txt 2016-05-06T09:11:02Z groovy2shoes: up top 2016-05-06T09:11:04Z groovy2shoes: compile & run 2016-05-06T09:11:04Z ecraven: oh, sorry, didn't see that 2016-05-06T09:11:07Z groovy2shoes: np :) 2016-05-06T09:11:33Z ecraven: ah, nice, I'll use that :) 2016-05-06T09:15:01Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-06T09:20:20Z nisstyre joined #scheme 2016-05-06T09:21:33Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T09:25:00Z rszeno joined #scheme 2016-05-06T09:26:55Z madmuppet006 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T09:27:08Z leot quit (Quit: BBIAB) 2016-05-06T09:28:21Z nowhere_man joined #scheme 2016-05-06T09:29:58Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-06T09:36:05Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-06T09:41:16Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-06T09:41:59Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-06T09:46:56Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-06T09:49:02Z turbopape_ joined #scheme 2016-05-06T09:49:26Z turbopape quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T09:50:18Z civodul joined #scheme 2016-05-06T09:52:48Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, still around? 2016-05-06T09:53:19Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-06T09:56:36Z ecraven: aye 2016-05-06T09:59:08Z groovy2shoes: re: our griping about R7RS-small, I had been working on developing an alternative standard for Scheme that I called "Common Scheme"... during the brainstorming phase I discovered EuLisp and wound up just jumping ship, but do you think there'd be any interest in something like that? 2016-05-06T09:59:30Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-06T09:59:54Z groovy2shoes: I dream of the Scheme community being once again united around a standard, and I'd love to see Scheme's userbase grow rather than languish as it seems to have been doing for the last >decade 2016-05-06T10:00:27Z turbopape joined #scheme 2016-05-06T10:00:33Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-06T10:00:46Z rszeno: grovy2shows, eulisp is sort of interesting 2016-05-06T10:01:01Z mario-goulart: groovy2shoes: https://xkcd.com/927/ 2016-05-06T10:01:19Z groovy2shoes: rszeno, I wound up working on a "new" Lisp dialect that's essentially EuLisp with some stuff imported from Scheme, and less stuff imported from some other dialects 2016-05-06T10:01:31Z groovy2shoes: mario-goulart, I don't think I even have to click that :p 2016-05-06T10:01:37Z mario-goulart: :-D 2016-05-06T10:01:50Z turbopape_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T10:02:24Z groovy2shoes: well, the goal for Common Scheme was that conformant CS programs would *also* be conformant R7RS-small programs, for the most part 2016-05-06T10:03:29Z groovy2shoes: and it's also defined in layers, like EuLisp and R7RS, but seeing how both EuLisp and R7RS-large are vaporware at this point, I figured there'd be no harm in doing some invention at levels higher than the core language 2016-05-06T10:03:56Z groovy2shoes: I should say, *core* CS programs 2016-05-06T10:04:05Z groovy2shoes: would be conformant R7RS programs 2016-05-06T10:04:13Z groovy2shoes: (and/or libraries) 2016-05-06T10:04:21Z rszeno: will be interesting to have what is goog in each scheme/lisp and can choose what to use 2016-05-06T10:04:40Z rszeno: goog is goog 2016-05-06T10:04:53Z groovy2shoes: EuLisp is like 90% of the way to my personal ideal programming language 2016-05-06T10:05:03Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-06T10:05:20Z groovy2shoes: and Scheme's philosophy as embodied in the Clinger Clause has always attracted me 2016-05-06T10:05:45Z groovy2shoes: and, frankly, I think it's a mistake to have syntactic macros that aren't hygienic by default 2016-05-06T10:07:59Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-06T10:08:03Z groovy2shoes: but, I figure, some goodies from here, some goodies from there, slap a new name on that sucker... and groovy2shoes saw that it was goog, and there was evening and there was morning -- the first day 2016-05-06T10:09:21Z groovy2shoes: I blame ISO for killing EuLisp 2016-05-06T10:09:23Z groovy2shoes: fuck ISO 2016-05-06T10:09:35Z groovy2shoes: and his buddy IEC, too, because why not? 2016-05-06T10:11:02Z jshjsh joined #scheme 2016-05-06T10:11:24Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-06T10:11:28Z groovy2shoes: hey jshjsh 2016-05-06T10:12:32Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T10:12:36Z jshjsh is now known as JoshS 2016-05-06T10:12:39Z JoshS: hi 2016-05-06T10:12:43Z groovy2shoes: how goes? 2016-05-06T10:12:49Z JoshS: ok 2016-05-06T10:13:07Z JoshS: wasn't someone in here saying they wrote a forth in lua last night? 2016-05-06T10:13:13Z groovy2shoes: rszeno, would you be interested in such a EuLisp/Scheme frankenstein monster? 2016-05-06T10:13:33Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-06T10:13:48Z JoshS: Where the trick was using lua's unlimited call and return parameters as a stack 2016-05-06T10:14:32Z groovy2shoes: wouldn't have been last night... it's not in my logs 2016-05-06T10:14:46Z JoshS: Maybe it was another channel 2016-05-06T10:15:02Z JoshS: Maybe #zerobrae 2016-05-06T10:15:04Z JoshS: Maybe #zerobrane 2016-05-06T10:15:30Z JoshS: As an exercise (since I need to have test code to develop my macro system) I started a similar system for the Joy language 2016-05-06T10:15:50Z JoshS: which is kind of forth like but more interesting 2016-05-06T10:16:11Z JoshS: http://www.kevinalbrecht.com/code/joy-mirror/joy.html 2016-05-06T10:16:37Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: sorry, short lunch break 2016-05-06T10:16:38Z groovy2shoes: Feb 14 13:15:25 "Linear Logic and Permutation Stacks--The Forth Shall Be First". ACM Computer Architecture News 22, 1 (March 1994), 34-43. Linear objects and stack architectures (of a particular type) are an excellent match. Compiling Lisp w/closures into Postscript; the Y combinator in Postscript! Includes a rather complete bibliography of stack architectures." 2016-05-06T10:16:38Z groovy2shoes: Feb 14 13:15:31 That looks like a fun weekend read 2016-05-06T10:16:42Z ecraven: EuLisp seemed great :) 2016-05-06T10:16:44Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, np 2016-05-06T10:16:59Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, cat is even better than Joy 2016-05-06T10:17:09Z JoshS: link? 2016-05-06T10:17:12Z groovy2shoes: but, last I checked, cat's web site had been down for several months 2016-05-06T10:17:32Z JoshS: If a search the web for cat I'm afraid I won't find programming languages 2016-05-06T10:17:46Z groovy2shoes: here's the remnants: https://code.google.com/archive/p/cat-language 2016-05-06T10:17:49Z JoshS: I can haz concatinative programming? 2016-05-06T10:17:50Z turbopape quit (Quit: Quitte) 2016-05-06T10:18:01Z AlexDenisov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T10:18:03Z ecraven: I'd have to look at EuLisp again, but the layered approach seemed very sensible last I looked 2016-05-06T10:18:06Z groovy2shoes: you can also try plugging "http://www.cat-language.com/" into the Wayback Machine 2016-05-06T10:18:22Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, also have a look at Kitten 2016-05-06T10:18:23Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T10:18:29Z JoshS: grr 2016-05-06T10:18:36Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-06T10:18:37Z groovy2shoes: http://kittenlang.org 2016-05-06T10:18:38Z ecraven: so, yea, I'd be interested in that, but as mario-goulart hinted, further fractioning the Scheme community wouldn't be a very good idea :-/ 2016-05-06T10:19:01Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-06T10:19:19Z groovy2shoes: oh, and Mantra: https://github.com/wyago/Mantra 2016-05-06T10:20:57Z JoshS: concatinative + statically typed sounds wrong 2016-05-06T10:21:07Z JoshS: a stack isn't statically typed! 2016-05-06T10:21:14Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, I thought that if nothing else, I might wind up pissing a bunch of people off... what right do I have to barge in and call this "new" language "Scheme"? so, once I found EuLisp, I decided to make something more unique than just-another-Scheme, but it likely won't be just-another-EuLisp, either, especially given that the EuLisp definition was never finished 2016-05-06T10:21:25Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, yeah, it is! 2016-05-06T10:21:49Z JoshS: not in the sort of free for all that joy gives you 2016-05-06T10:22:06Z JoshS: where code is data and combines 2016-05-06T10:22:08Z groovy2shoes: http://tinyurl.com/7znvzk7 2016-05-06T10:22:26Z JoshS: It's statically typed in that the type is the union of everything 2016-05-06T10:22:32Z groovy2shoes: nope 2016-05-06T10:22:47Z groovy2shoes: it's statically typed in that the type of the stack has row polymorphism 2016-05-06T10:23:23Z JoshS: gobbldy gook 2016-05-06T10:23:27Z rszeno: groovy2shoes, yes more general i'm fascinated by langs able to change syntax and/or semantic 2016-05-06T10:23:36Z JoshS: I don't know what 'row polymorphism' is 2016-05-06T10:23:36Z groovy2shoes: so, for example, dup would have type Stack(A, ...) -> Stack(A, A, ...) 2016-05-06T10:23:43Z JoshS: pretend you're talking to Donald Trump 2016-05-06T10:23:49Z JoshS: >.> joke 2016-05-06T10:24:30Z groovy2shoes: rszeno, yay! :) 2016-05-06T10:24:42Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T10:24:51Z JoshS: anyway I actually have an attraction to free for all NOT statically typed languages 2016-05-06T10:24:55Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, if I were pretending to talk to Donald Trump, I might give you PTSD :p 2016-05-06T10:25:29Z groovy2shoes: I like both untyped and typed languages... for me types aren't usually the thing that attracts me to a language 2016-05-06T10:25:42Z rszeno: capabity here 2016-05-06T10:25:46Z JoshS: I feel like static typing is a set of restrictions on your program that can complicate the search for an algorithm 2016-05-06T10:26:09Z rszeno: hibrid typing? 2016-05-06T10:26:22Z JoshS: Of course as I program in untyped languages for the first time, I run into problems from that... 2016-05-06T10:26:26Z groovy2shoes: (though, I should say that *if* a particular language is typed, it *must* be flexibly so, i.e., festooned with polymorphism, which means that, e.g., Go is right-out in my book... wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole) 2016-05-06T10:26:57Z JoshS: I like this idea: Code should be as short as possible 2016-05-06T10:27:12Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, out of curiosity, which typed languages are you comfortable with? 2016-05-06T10:27:15Z rszeno rust here 2016-05-06T10:27:20Z JoshS: sigh 2016-05-06T10:27:28Z groovy2shoes: "comfortable" in the sense of familiarity 2016-05-06T10:27:29Z JoshS: I spent years writing in C++ 2016-05-06T10:27:38Z ecraven: hm.. wasn't there EuScheme too? 2016-05-06T10:27:42Z groovy2shoes: ugh, I feel your pain... that's my day job currently 2016-05-06T10:27:57Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, EuScheme was just an implementation of level-0 EuLisp that happened to be written in Scheme 2016-05-06T10:28:11Z groovy2shoes: the name got changed to EuXLisp because the name was too confusing 2016-05-06T10:28:15Z ecraven: ah, it's been too long :-/ 2016-05-06T10:28:31Z JoshS: If I had to pick a typed language to write in, I'd probably feel comfortable in ML 2016-05-06T10:28:39Z JoshS: or maybe CAML 2016-05-06T10:28:53Z rszeno: +1 2016-05-06T10:29:08Z JoshS: Something about Haskell makes me want to run screaming 2016-05-06T10:29:13Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, not to start a flame war or anything (you're entitled to your opinion, for sure), but it's possible to have types that aren't quite so much like straightjackets 2016-05-06T10:29:57Z JoshS: Programming C++ templates is the worst 2016-05-06T10:30:17Z groovy2shoes: ML is also my language of choice for the moment... before I'd dropped it to focus on Lisp, I was working on an ML dialect which was originally conceived as "Lua with types", but after some design I realized it was basically a dialect of ML lol 2016-05-06T10:30:17Z JoshS: or maybe Java's lack of abstraction is the worst 2016-05-06T10:30:31Z groovy2shoes: (typed language of choice, that is) 2016-05-06T10:30:38Z JoshS: what's it called? 2016-05-06T10:30:43Z groovy2shoes: Emblem 2016-05-06T10:30:50Z JoshS: link? 2016-05-06T10:30:57Z groovy2shoes: from "Embeddable ML" 2016-05-06T10:31:09Z JoshS: I bother you that way because you pick languages that don't seem googleable 2016-05-06T10:31:21Z groovy2shoes: ah, I don't have anything more than a lexer and a grammar at the moment, along with a ton of notes that I furiously scribbled into a notebook 2016-05-06T10:31:47Z renopt: ML also, nice language 2016-05-06T10:31:49Z groovy2shoes: btw, I followed you on github, so you can just click on "baguette" from your github followers :p 2016-05-06T10:31:56Z renopt: if scheme didn't exist that's probably what I'd be using 2016-05-06T10:32:00Z ecraven: what are good ideas from level 0 eulisp that r7rs misses? 2016-05-06T10:32:04Z JoshS: I'm seeing Embedded ML 2016-05-06T10:32:11Z JoshS: written in Haskell 2016-05-06T10:32:14Z JoshS: outputting C 2016-05-06T10:32:21Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, I like that it's got TELOS (CLOS-like object system) integrated from the ground up 2016-05-06T10:32:35Z ecraven: telos is very nice :) 2016-05-06T10:32:43Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, otherwise, I don't think EuLisp's level-0 is much different from R7RS-small, feature-wise 2016-05-06T10:33:36Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, it wasn't advertised as "Embedd{able,ed} ML", I just called it "Emblem" :p 2016-05-06T10:33:55Z JoshS: google isn't finding 2016-05-06T10:34:05Z groovy2shoes: but the idea was to make it small and portable, so you could stick it in a C program the way you'd do Lua 2016-05-06T10:34:23Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, https://github.com/baguette 2016-05-06T10:35:15Z JoshS: he no longer seems to have that project 2016-05-06T10:35:38Z JoshS: found it 2016-05-06T10:35:42Z JoshS: not on first page 2016-05-06T10:35:51Z groovy2shoes: he is me :p 2016-05-06T10:36:06Z JoshS: :3 2016-05-06T10:37:44Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-06T10:37:53Z JoshS: I keep feeling like I should throw away my macro processor and start over 2016-05-06T10:38:09Z JoshS: The following problems are hard: 2016-05-06T10:38:22Z JoshS: 1) expanding in a way that keeps formatting readable 2016-05-06T10:38:29Z groovy2shoes: there's a "Lute" (from "Lua with Types") that I started, which was the original conception of Emblem, but as I kept designing, it became obvious that it was becoming more like ML and less like Lua, so I decided to drop it and just explicitly make an ML dialect 2016-05-06T10:38:42Z JoshS: 2) expanding in stages so that the user can watch the expansion process and debug it 2016-05-06T10:38:58Z JoshS: harder to put in after the fact 2016-05-06T10:39:05Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, check out Mantra 2016-05-06T10:39:11Z JoshS: what is mantra? 2016-05-06T10:39:47Z groovy2shoes: I linked it up there ↑ 2016-05-06T10:41:37Z groovy2shoes: it's entire semantics is based around term rewriting, and the evaluator can show you the results of each rewrite until it reaches a normal form 2016-05-06T10:41:40Z groovy2shoes: pretty sweet 2016-05-06T10:41:50Z groovy2shoes: might serve as some inspiration, perhaps 2016-05-06T10:42:30Z ecraven: hm.. now that r7rs has when and unless, one-handed if should be forbidden :D 2016-05-06T10:43:36Z groovy2shoes: imo, one-handed if should've always been forbidden :p 2016-05-06T10:43:37Z JoshS: Well my macro system is a fairly traditional one to sit on top of a language... I'm not sure that term rewriting fits into the model. The model is "whatever feature is useful" 2016-05-06T10:43:59Z JoshS: Not so abstract 2016-05-06T10:44:37Z groovy2shoes: macro systems are all, at the very least, approximations of term-rewriting systems 2016-05-06T10:45:02Z JoshS: term rewrite is local though 2016-05-06T10:45:04Z groovy2shoes: what I mean by approximations is that they are TRSs in essence, but rarely formally so 2016-05-06T10:45:11Z JoshS: macros don't have to be that local 2016-05-06T10:45:19Z groovy2shoes: what do you mean by local? 2016-05-06T10:45:52Z JoshS: Local in the source code 2016-05-06T10:46:12Z groovy2shoes: I don't follow 2016-05-06T10:46:20Z JoshS: well they usually are to an extent. Mine also has the ability to generate code in multiple places from the same macro 2016-05-06T10:46:35Z lritter joined #scheme 2016-05-06T10:46:46Z groovy2shoes: ah, I think I see what you mean now 2016-05-06T10:46:58Z groovy2shoes: I don't think that's a fundamental requirement of a TRS 2016-05-06T10:47:10Z JoshS: but I think of term rewrite as being like the game of life 2016-05-06T10:47:26Z JoshS: that the changes are purely adjacent to each other 2016-05-06T10:47:29Z groovy2shoes: I think you could accomplish your section stuff with a TRS, you just need to come up with a TRS that has a notion of a "destination" built-in 2016-05-06T10:47:41Z rszeno: JoshS nomadism? 2016-05-06T10:47:42Z JoshS: maybe I just don't have any experience with TRS 2016-05-06T10:47:59Z JoshS: conway's game of life 2016-05-06T10:48:12Z JoshS: rules are very local 2016-05-06T10:48:15Z groovy2shoes: a TRS is just a set of rules for rewriting terms... it's a really general notion 2016-05-06T10:48:58Z JoshS: maybe what I have IS a trs 2016-05-06T10:49:22Z JoshS: Currently I don't have macros writing global macros... 2016-05-06T10:49:26Z groovy2shoes: like I said, all macro systems are at least approximations of a TRS 2016-05-06T10:49:57Z JoshS: but formatting is about indentation 2016-05-06T10:50:22Z JoshS: and expanding new code inside code in a way that doesn't make the indentation and line breaks insane 2016-05-06T10:50:30Z JoshS: and comments 2016-05-06T10:50:38Z JoshS: hmm 2016-05-06T10:50:44Z rszeno: macros is a sort of rs, can be trs 2016-05-06T10:50:45Z JoshS: what you want is this 2016-05-06T10:50:56Z JoshS: a macro system should be able to animate 2016-05-06T10:51:04Z JoshS: you can watch it work on a file 2016-05-06T10:51:13Z JoshS: step by step 2016-05-06T10:51:15Z groovy2shoes: rszeno, ah, yeah, good point... the could also be string-rewriting systems, etc. 2016-05-06T10:51:22Z JoshS: and go aha! when it messes up 2016-05-06T10:51:58Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, yup! Mantra can do that for arbitrary expressions, but I don't see why the same thing wouldn't work for macro expansions 2016-05-06T10:52:00Z JoshS: imagine that a macro system came with a fast, animated text window 2016-05-06T10:52:40Z JoshS: I'm such a perfectionist! 2016-05-06T10:52:48Z ecraven: hm.. would be interesting to implement EuLisp level-0 for Chez :) 2016-05-06T10:52:52Z groovy2shoes: it'd be cool to have a slider or something, and you could slide from the source to the expansions, stopping at any step along the way 2016-05-06T10:53:50Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T10:53:53Z JoshS: my system expands fairly strictly from right to left, bottom to top 2016-05-06T10:53:57Z ecraven: chez can show you the macro expansion stepwise, I think 2016-05-06T10:54:02Z ecraven: it's somewhere in the manual 2016-05-06T10:54:06Z JoshS: so you could follow the wave of expansion up the file 2016-05-06T10:54:27Z rszeno: elementary steps? 2016-05-06T10:54:35Z JoshS: ? 2016-05-06T10:55:04Z rszeno: like -S flag off gcc 2016-05-06T10:55:31Z na_th_an quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-06T10:55:32Z JoshS: I did right to left because the handle for a macro is usually at the left, so if you expand right to left then by the time a macro expands, its parameters are already fully expanded 2016-05-06T10:55:57Z JoshS: I don't know what the -S flag is 2016-05-06T10:56:14Z mejja: assembly output 2016-05-06T10:56:17Z groovy2shoes: I think it tells gcc to just output asm? 2016-05-06T10:56:38Z groovy2shoes: hey mejja :) 2016-05-06T10:56:39Z rszeno: is the short for emite asm code 2016-05-06T10:56:52Z rszeno: yes 2016-05-06T10:59:43Z JoshS: groovy2shoes, how is it going? 2016-05-06T10:59:58Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, not too bad 2016-05-06T11:00:14Z groovy2shoes: had planned to work on my new Lisp all night, but got distracted by Usenet :S 2016-05-06T11:01:13Z JoshS: is your new lisp chez or is it lemma? 2016-05-06T11:01:37Z JoshS: wow I didn't know usenet was still around 2016-05-06T11:01:41Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-06T11:01:42Z groovy2shoes: it's still in a notebook at this point 2016-05-06T11:01:51Z groovy2shoes: actually, a few notebooks 2016-05-06T11:01:56Z JoshS: bork.bork.bork 2016-05-06T11:02:07Z groovy2shoes: I haven't decided on a name yet 2016-05-06T11:02:17Z JoshS: for lemma? 2016-05-06T11:02:22Z groovy2shoes: I was going to call it Wren, but then munificentbob went and stole my thunder 2016-05-06T11:02:33Z groovy2shoes: no, for my new Lisp 2016-05-06T11:02:37Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-06T11:02:49Z groovy2shoes: I've pretty much abandoned Lemma at this point, unfortunately 2016-05-06T11:02:58Z groovy2shoes: hey john 2016-05-06T11:04:08Z rszeno: name is not important, call it "murato", for example, :) 2016-05-06T11:04:19Z groovy2shoes: name is very important 2016-05-06T11:04:56Z rszeno: for SEO? 2016-05-06T11:05:15Z groovy2shoes: I've been doing a poll recently among my friends and colleagues... one of them has finally pulled ahead, and half of them haven't gotten a single vote 2016-05-06T11:06:01Z JoshS: I have a bunch of ideas for language(s) I want to write 2016-05-06T11:06:03Z ecraven: jcowan: hey :) 2016-05-06T11:06:17Z JoshS: well one langauge sort of 2016-05-06T11:06:27Z ecraven: jcowan: will there be a version of r7rs.pdf (small) that includes the fixed errata? 2016-05-06T11:06:33Z JoshS: I have a thread at lambda the ultimate about it 2016-05-06T11:06:40Z JoshS: but the formatting is so messed up there 2016-05-06T11:06:58Z JoshS: that to make it readable, I cut and paste it somewhere else https://jpst.it/Id7Q 2016-05-06T11:07:51Z JoshS: groovy2shoes, tell me about your lisp 2016-05-06T11:08:15Z jcowan: ecraven: I don't know, it depends on the Steering Committee 2016-05-06T11:08:50Z JoshS: last time I pasted that someone here yelled at me for not knowing that the kind of parser I was writing was invented by someone else 2016-05-06T11:08:55Z JoshS: >.> 2016-05-06T11:09:45Z ecraven: jcowan: would it help if someone took the latex sources and added the non-controversial fixes? 2016-05-06T11:10:13Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, the working name is Lisp/NC, but it's not going to be called that when it's finished... anyway, it's essentially a cross between EuLisp and Scheme, with some stuff taken from other dialects as appropriate... I'm still in the design phase and it may or may not wind up with some new stuff, but largely it'll just be an amalgam of goog ideas from other Lisps 2016-05-06T11:10:21Z jcowan: No, that's already done. 2016-05-06T11:10:43Z ecraven: is that publicly accessible? 2016-05-06T11:10:53Z JoshS: I think if I write a language I'll celebrate it's metaprogramming and self referral (homoiconic) by naming it after Douglas Hofstadter 2016-05-06T11:10:57Z jcowan: Not atm, that would be confusing. 2016-05-06T11:11:03Z JoshS: What do you think of the Douglas language 2016-05-06T11:11:14Z jcowan: Hard to google 2016-05-06T11:11:20Z jcowan: "Scheme" is already hard to google 2016-05-06T11:11:36Z ecraven: jcowan: yea. I've found a few typos, just wanted to check whether they've already been resolved 2016-05-06T11:11:37Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, I'm trying to make it clean and also stratified... it'll be defined in four "levels": (0) the basis language; (1) the canonical language; (2) the application language; (3) the extension language 2016-05-06T11:11:50Z jcowan: ecraven: Best thing is to send them to me 2016-05-06T11:11:55Z jcowan: cowan@ccil.org 2016-05-06T11:12:03Z groovy2shoes: where the basis language follows the philosophy encapsulated in the Clinger Clause 2016-05-06T11:12:12Z ecraven: :) great, thank you! 2016-05-06T11:12:16Z JoshS: hmm don't make a cross between two standards without putting something new and interesting in 2016-05-06T11:12:56Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, I'd argue that unless you invent an entirely new word, your language is inevitably going to be "hard to google" 2016-05-06T11:13:14Z groovy2shoes: you throw "[programming] language" into your query, and you're good to go 2016-05-06T11:13:18Z JoshS: The "I can haz cheeseburger" language 2016-05-06T11:13:35Z rszeno: is a SEO issue 2016-05-06T11:13:51Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, it worked for Common Lisp, and EuLisp, and ISLisp, ... 2016-05-06T11:14:03Z groovy2shoes: don't see why it won't work for "Lisp/NC" :p 2016-05-06T11:14:04Z JoshS: those are languages by committee 2016-05-06T11:14:11Z ecraven: jcowan: if you have a minute, could you have a look at http://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-benchmarks and tell me which important Schemes I'm still missing? 2016-05-06T11:14:32Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, TinySCHEME 2016-05-06T11:14:34Z JoshS: at least fix eval so that it can take an environment 2016-05-06T11:14:38Z jcowan: OK, give me a few 2016-05-06T11:14:41Z JoshS: and so you can get the current environment 2016-05-06T11:14:47Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, yep, that's in the notes 2016-05-06T11:14:51Z ecraven: jcowan: not urgent at all 2016-05-06T11:15:06Z ecraven: jcowan: I'll ping you again about it after the weekend, if that's better 2016-05-06T11:15:11Z JoshS: I'd like to see a "quote and capture environment" 2016-05-06T11:15:14Z groovy2shoes: as well as some basic functions for constructing and manipulating environments 2016-05-06T11:15:23Z JoshS: so that quoting is saves live data 2016-05-06T11:15:33Z JoshS: instead of shooting variables in the back of the head 2016-05-06T11:15:34Z groovy2shoes: though I'm hesitant to call what I have at the moment "first-class environments", that's a possibility as well 2016-05-06T11:16:11Z JoshS: combination of closure and quote 2016-05-06T11:16:37Z groovy2shoes: "snapshotting" an environment would involve creating new bindings with the same name and structure as the current environment by default, not copying the bindings 2016-05-06T11:16:45Z groovy2shoes: better for concurrency that way 2016-05-06T11:16:51Z JoshS: There's been some work on how to modernize fexprs, but I'm not happy with it, even though I respect the man who did it 2016-05-06T11:17:01Z groovy2shoes: of course, implementations are free to do copy-on-write if they so choode 2016-05-06T11:17:06Z groovy2shoes: choose, even 2016-05-06T11:17:21Z groovy2shoes: are you referring to John Shutt's work on Kernel? 2016-05-06T11:17:22Z tos-1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-06T11:17:39Z JoshS: yeah 2016-05-06T11:17:59Z groovy2shoes: fexprs are intellectually interesting, but all "safe" fexprs are equivalent in power to macros, so I don't see any real benefit 2016-05-06T11:18:29Z ecraven: make NLAMBDA alive again! 2016-05-06T11:18:35Z JoshS: I think that his idea misses that a name must always have the same meaning in the same and nearby context 2016-05-06T11:18:39Z groovy2shoes: I'd rather have reified macros than fexprs, but I probably won't standardize that, at least not in the first version... too many open questions around it, still 2016-05-06T11:19:26Z JoshS: I'm not happy with scheme's hygenic macros 2016-05-06T11:19:45Z groovy2shoes: why not? 2016-05-06T11:19:48Z ecraven: JoshS: do you know of any mostly-hygienic system, that allows to capture selected names? 2016-05-06T11:20:08Z ecraven: something like specifying explicitly which names to capture in syntax-rules would be nice 2016-05-06T11:20:11Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, syntax-case, implicit-renaming macros 2016-05-06T11:20:18Z JoshS: Maybe clojure and julia have macro systems worth looking at 2016-05-06T11:20:28Z groovy2shoes: clojure doesn't 2016-05-06T11:20:33Z JoshS: you can specify a few environments that a name comes from 2016-05-06T11:20:36Z groovy2shoes: I'll stick with hygienic macros 2016-05-06T11:20:54Z groovy2shoes: there's no reason in this day and age not to offer hygiene in your macro system 2016-05-06T11:21:05Z groovy2shoes: nor any excuse, other than laziness 2016-05-06T11:21:06Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: how would you implement anaphoric if in such a system? 2016-05-06T11:21:09Z JoshS: I didn't like the DSL for it though 2016-05-06T11:21:27Z JoshS: Lisp had procedural macros 2016-05-06T11:21:33Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, hold on, I'll throw together an example 2016-05-06T11:21:37Z JoshS: maybe a hygenic system without the dsl... 2016-05-06T11:21:49Z JoshS: Even though that's NOT what my system is 2016-05-06T11:21:54Z ecraven: maybe I'm misunderstanding things, but introducing or capturing bindings is often useful (if done on purpose) 2016-05-06T11:21:55Z JoshS: mine isn't that powerful 2016-05-06T11:21:57Z JoshS: >.> 2016-05-06T11:22:01Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, syntax-case and implicit-renaming macros are both hygienic and procedural 2016-05-06T11:22:22Z JoshS: but they're not in scheme, they're a different langauge, tacked on 2016-05-06T11:22:25Z groovy2shoes: hygiene and procedurality are not mutually exclusive by any means 2016-05-06T11:22:52Z rszeno or maybe only dsl and a formalism 2016-05-06T11:22:53Z JoshS: and it's frustrating that you can't to otherwise straightforward things in that language 2016-05-06T11:22:59Z JoshS: because it's not scheme 2016-05-06T11:23:06Z JoshS: it's a tiny, limited dsl 2016-05-06T11:23:28Z JoshS: Try for instance, to make a class/object system out of macros 2016-05-06T11:23:39Z JoshS: that gives variables their names in context 2016-05-06T11:24:02Z rszeno: brujin? 2016-05-06T11:24:05Z JoshS: where instance and class variables can just be used as in C++ in the right places 2016-05-06T11:24:11Z JoshS: you can't do that with hygenic macros 2016-05-06T11:24:29Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, syntax-case and ir-macro-transformer do give you full scheme 2016-05-06T11:24:40Z JoshS: you SAY that 2016-05-06T11:24:45Z JoshS: but TRY it 2016-05-06T11:25:00Z rszeno: missing logic? 2016-05-06T11:25:10Z groovy2shoes: syntax-case relies on a notion of phasing to accomplish it, ir-macro-transformer is a little more seat-of-the-pants 2016-05-06T11:25:55Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, I'm not 100% sure what you mean by your example 2016-05-06T11:25:56Z JoshS: I found that in Racket things were impossible 2016-05-06T11:26:36Z JoshS: think of c++. You define a class with instance variables and class variables 2016-05-06T11:26:54Z JoshS: in the context of a method you can refer to those variables without any qualifiication 2016-05-06T11:27:09Z JoshS: you just type the name and it knows that they came from the object or class 2016-05-06T11:27:14Z JoshS: try to do that with hygenic macros 2016-05-06T11:28:16Z jackdaniel: I believe that the hygienic macros have their use, but there wouldn't be "breaking the hygiene" topic, if unhygienic macros weren't useful too 2016-05-06T11:28:25Z jackdaniel: anaphoras are a perfect example 2016-05-06T11:28:44Z JoshS: you can't do what I said with simple anaphoric tricks either 2016-05-06T11:29:09Z JoshS: Not the silly little one they put in Racket 2016-05-06T11:29:18Z jackdaniel: JoshS: yes, it's a perfect example that hygiene is sometimes something you don't want to have 2016-05-06T11:29:51Z drot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T11:29:55Z JoshS: And in racket the tokens have hidden fields you can't create directly and can't change 2016-05-06T11:30:01Z JoshS: and they affect expansion 2016-05-06T11:30:08Z drot joined #scheme 2016-05-06T11:30:30Z JoshS: Even if you create tokens directly in code 2016-05-06T11:30:40Z JoshS: you STILL can't control them 2016-05-06T11:31:11Z JoshS: They affect whether two tokens with the same name can be the same variable 2016-05-06T11:32:15Z M_D_K joined #scheme 2016-05-06T11:32:24Z JoshS: In racket there are levels that tokens are tagged with, and tokens from different levels can't name the same variable 2016-05-06T11:32:40Z JoshS: but the level is a hidden field 2016-05-06T11:32:49Z JoshS: that you can't see under any circumstances 2016-05-06T11:33:13Z JoshS: and can't create directly, you can only create it by cloning another token as far as I can tell 2016-05-06T11:34:02Z jackdaniel: anyone is going at european lisp syposium next week? 2016-05-06T11:34:09Z JoshS: Their hygiene is so strong you can't break out of it in any obvious way, even if you code tokens directly 2016-05-06T11:36:52Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, here's an anaphoric implicit-renaming macro: http://hastebin.com/secoluzowe.scm 2016-05-06T11:37:46Z JoshS: I've never seen ir-macro-transformer before 2016-05-06T11:38:00Z ecraven: it seems to be the inverse of er-macro-transformer 2016-05-06T11:38:12Z groovy2shoes: yup, exactly 2016-05-06T11:38:20Z JoshS: never seen that either, I've only used Racket's system 2016-05-06T11:38:28Z groovy2shoes: it's probably the most intuitive hygienic-by-default macro transformer I've ever encountered 2016-05-06T11:38:30Z JoshS: and neither of those were mentioned in the doc 2016-05-06T11:38:39Z zhcy quit (Quit: zhcy) 2016-05-06T11:38:43Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: to me, that macro is inherently non-hygienic.. but my definition of "hygienic" might just be wrong :) 2016-05-06T11:38:43Z groovy2shoes: hygienic by default, but with an escape hatch when you want it 2016-05-06T11:39:44Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, you're right that that macro in particular is not completely hygienic 2016-05-06T11:39:59Z ecraven: well, ir-macro-transformer itself doesn't guarantee hygiene 2016-05-06T11:40:00Z groovy2shoes: it can shadow and capture `it` 2016-05-06T11:40:10Z groovy2shoes: however, it won't shadow or capture any other identifier 2016-05-06T11:40:30Z groovy2shoes: you break the hygiene explicitly and narrowly 2016-05-06T11:40:30Z ecraven: so my point is, you *want* a non-hygienic system, but it should make hygiene easy / the default, and allow you to capture / introduce bindings if necessary 2016-05-06T11:40:39Z ecraven: yes, that is imho a very good system 2016-05-06T11:40:40Z groovy2shoes: oh, right 2016-05-06T11:40:43Z groovy2shoes: I totally agree with that 2016-05-06T11:40:44Z JoshS: sounds good 2016-05-06T11:40:55Z JoshS: groovy2shoes, can you do my example from that? 2016-05-06T11:41:08Z JoshS: the instance and class variable example? 2016-05-06T11:41:10Z jackdaniel: I think that gensyms solve the capturing problem well enough too 2016-05-06T11:41:18Z JoshS: ^ 2016-05-06T11:41:19Z groovy2shoes: I'm not trying to strut around thumping my hygiene bible and decry all the unhygienic macros 2016-05-06T11:41:39Z groovy2shoes: all I'm saying is that it should by hygienic by default 2016-05-06T11:42:04Z groovy2shoes: for the same reasons that scoping should be lexical by default, but that dynamic/fluid scoping should be available also for when it's desired 2016-05-06T11:42:17Z ecraven: agreed :) 2016-05-06T11:42:18Z JoshS: The macro system I'm working on just automatically does gensym on variables you want to be hygienic. In the context of lua that would be the only way anyway 2016-05-06T11:42:25Z groovy2shoes: "hygiene" is the macro equivalent of lexical scope 2016-05-06T11:42:33Z rszeno: what about implementing Hayashi px? 2016-05-06T11:42:34Z ecraven: hm.. now I wish MIT/GNU Scheme had ir-macro-transformer :) 2016-05-06T11:42:55Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, that's all er-macro-transformer (explicit-renaming macros) does 2016-05-06T11:43:29Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-06T11:43:42Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, it's actually implementable in terms of er-macro-transformer and/or syntactic closures, if you're willing to do some code walking 2016-05-06T11:43:54Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: yea, mit has both of these 2016-05-06T11:44:07Z nalaginrut quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T11:45:11Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/issues/114 2016-05-06T11:45:50Z groovy2shoes: that's one I wrote for chibi back in the day, but alex wasn't willing to take it because of the code walking, which apparently can really screw with performance in some pathological cases 2016-05-06T11:45:54Z akkad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-06T11:46:06Z groovy2shoes: I've never had any issues with it, and afaict, chicken implements it in almost the same way 2016-05-06T11:46:28Z nalaginrut joined #scheme 2016-05-06T11:48:01Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, to give you a better answer to your question, it *is* actually possible to implement anaphoric macros with a strictly-hygienic macro, but it's convoluted and hard to understand... let me see if I can find that thread... 2016-05-06T11:49:43Z JoshS: It seems to me that waking macros should be table driven and fast 2016-05-06T11:50:17Z JoshS: Idk, I'm using a different method than scheme so maybe I don't understand the issue 2016-05-06T11:51:12Z groovy2shoes: I honestly have had 0 problems with it in practice 2016-05-06T11:51:23Z jcowan: ecraven: taking a quick look 2016-05-06T11:51:34Z groovy2shoes: and I've used it a lot, because it's my preferred form of macro when I need to break hygiene 2016-05-06T11:51:54Z JoshS: I looked it up and Racket doesn't have it either 2016-05-06T11:52:12Z JoshS: but I never understood the macro system in detail... 2016-05-06T11:52:19Z ecraven: hm.. whatever MIT/GNU Scheme does, you can't just define new functions to use as transformer generators :-/ 2016-05-06T11:52:33Z JoshS: The docs don't help much. 2016-05-06T11:52:36Z groovy2shoes: syntax-case lets you break hygiene with syntax->datum and datum->syntax 2016-05-06T11:52:50Z jcowan: ecraven: Were you able to install Chicken-Stalin? 2016-05-06T11:52:52Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, lame :( 2016-05-06T11:53:09Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, you should be able to define it as a macro that expands into an er-macro-transformer, I think 2016-05-06T11:53:16Z JoshS: In Racket even syntax->datum and datum->syntax won't break hygiene enough 2016-05-06T11:53:28Z ecraven: jcowan: yes, however I have some problems with it :-/ 2016-05-06T11:53:31Z JoshS: afaik 2016-05-06T11:53:34Z jcowan: The Chicken implementation of ir-macros is O(n^2) 2016-05-06T11:53:39Z ecraven: jcowan: how do I define when/unless? 2016-05-06T11:53:51Z jcowan: You can't. No macros in Stalin 2016-05-06T11:54:06Z jcowan: rewrite as (if p (begin ...)) etc 2016-05-06T11:54:18Z ecraven: jcowan: I wouldn't want to do this just for stalin :-/ 2016-05-06T11:54:30Z jcowan: SOmeone should front-end Stalin with psyntax or alexpander. Probably someone has. BUT WE'LL NEVER KNOW! 2016-05-06T11:54:31Z ecraven: also, I've manually converted two (fib and nqueens I think), and those were rather slow 2016-05-06T11:54:43Z jcowan: Really? 2016-05-06T11:54:54Z Fare joined #scheme 2016-05-06T11:55:01Z jcowan: Try running them through alexpander. 2016-05-06T11:55:07Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, yes, but n is usually pretty damn small 2016-05-06T11:55:11Z jcowan: that should be easy 2016-05-06T11:55:15Z ecraven: jcowan: do you know of an implementation of ir-macro-transformer that isn't O(n^2)? 2016-05-06T11:55:20Z jcowan: no 2016-05-06T11:55:38Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, I'm working on one for Lisp/NC B) 2016-05-06T11:55:38Z turtleman joined #scheme 2016-05-06T11:55:50Z taylan: syntax-case did nothing wrong :( 2016-05-06T11:56:28Z ecraven: jcowan: I'd guess you'd have to know more about how stalin works and write the tests in a way that stalin can process well 2016-05-06T11:56:33Z groovy2shoes: based on Andre van Tonder's ref impl for srfi-72 2016-05-06T11:56:55Z groovy2shoes: (for the coloring algorithm) 2016-05-06T11:57:01Z akkad joined #scheme 2016-05-06T11:58:16Z jcowan: ecraven: Try running the benchmarks through alexpander at http://petrofsky.org/src/alexpander.scm (should be portable) and see what Stalin can do then. 2016-05-06T11:59:25Z jcowan: you may need to grab some syntax-rules macros from R7RS 7.3 2016-05-06T11:59:28Z ecraven: what's the expansion procedure in alexpander? 2016-05-06T11:59:39Z jcowan: Reads current input, writes current output 2016-05-06T11:59:45Z jcowan: it is an offline macro expander. 2016-05-06T11:59:49Z ecraven: ah, great 2016-05-06T12:00:33Z JoshS: One answer to "macros can slow down compilation" is "don't use those particular macros" 2016-05-06T12:01:11Z JoshS: same answer as "turing complete macro systems aren't guaranteed to terminate" / the answer is "don't write those macros" 2016-05-06T12:01:22Z JoshS: bottom is a bug >.> 2016-05-06T12:02:01Z taylan: or to make sure the macros don't output a lot of code :) I had *horrible* compile times with my SRFI-64 implementation until I realized that macros with huge bodies were the problem and made them dispatch to procedures where possible 2016-05-06T12:02:02Z JoshS: ie, no one promised you that a badly written program will compile 2016-05-06T12:02:07Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, I agree 100% 2016-05-06T12:02:29Z groovy2shoes: taylan, good point, and good idea 2016-05-06T12:04:46Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-06T12:07:58Z ecraven: jcowan: any idea whether stalin supports some sub-second-precision timing procedure? 2016-05-06T12:08:56Z ecraven: jcowan: without alexpander, chicken-stalin -On fib.scm && time ./fib says 24.28s on the test system 2016-05-06T12:10:05Z jcowan: I see no timing stuff 2016-05-06T12:10:28Z ecraven: of course I get several pages' worth of warnings from stalin 2016-05-06T12:10:47Z jcowan: sample? 2016-05-06T12:11:07Z pjb joined #scheme 2016-05-06T12:11:51Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-06T12:11:58Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-06T12:12:00Z ecraven: http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/stalin-fib.scm is the source, http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/stalin-fib.log is the compile output 2016-05-06T12:12:06Z rszeno time is time or bash time? 2016-05-06T12:12:27Z ecraven: zsh time, I think 2016-05-06T12:12:42Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T12:12:44Z jcowan: You can use foreign-procedure to call arbitrary C procedures in Stalin 2016-05-06T12:12:47Z jcowan: example: (FOREIGN-PROCEDURE (CHAR*) INT "atoi") 2016-05-06T12:12:56Z jshjsh joined #scheme 2016-05-06T12:13:06Z jcowan: is a Scheme procedure that will call atoi. So you can use that to call C timing code 2016-05-06T12:14:33Z AlexDenisov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T12:14:44Z grettke quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-06T12:15:05Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-06T12:15:15Z m0li joined #scheme 2016-05-06T12:16:02Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T12:16:31Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, jshjsh: http://hastebin.com/ugelilumap.scm 2016-05-06T12:17:20Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: that's not as nice as the other one :) 2016-05-06T12:17:31Z groovy2shoes: you could consider this one slightly "more hygienic" because when the "it" identifier is introduced, it's only introduced into the context of "if!" 2016-05-06T12:17:52Z groovy2shoes: I agree, I just wanted to demonstrate :) 2016-05-06T12:18:14Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-06T12:19:41Z vydd quit 2016-05-06T12:19:43Z jcowan: Since you are doing the R6RS systems, you might as well do Ypsilon and Mosh, and IronScheme would be interesting too 2016-05-06T12:19:58Z jcowan: (it runs okay on Mono) 2016-05-06T12:20:08Z ecraven: if I just let stalin run the fib loop, no input, output, stats, or anything, time says 7.936 2016-05-06T12:20:13Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, and here's how you can write anaphoric macros completely hygienically with syntax-rules: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.scheme/wyYJ5PwSxSM/cZ9Lrj3ROFQJ 2016-05-06T12:20:13Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/1zDJXE0HuO 2016-05-06T12:20:13Z ecraven: so it's still not even close to the fastest 2016-05-06T12:20:42Z mejja: ecraven: have you looked in stalin-0.11/benchmarks? A simple "grep time stalin-IA32.c" indicates it includes time.h 2016-05-06T12:20:51Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-06T12:20:54Z jcowan: Still, one benchmark doesn't show much 2016-05-06T12:21:10Z jcowan: Owl Lisp would also be good, as it is a compiler 2016-05-06T12:21:14Z jcowan: has a compiler, whatever 2016-05-06T12:21:37Z jcowan: though it only handles the immutable subset of Scheme, so wouldn't be able to run some benchmarks 2016-05-06T12:21:51Z ecraven: well, some tests fail for almost every scheme on the list 2016-05-06T12:21:54Z ecraven: I'll see what I can do 2016-05-06T12:21:59Z jcowan: other than that I think you're done 2016-05-06T12:22:07Z ecraven: ypsilon and mosh should definitely work, ironscheme too if it runs on mono 2016-05-06T12:22:17Z ecraven: owl lisp I'll investigate 2016-05-06T12:22:34Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: thanks for that link, interesting 2016-05-06T12:22:40Z jcowan: My script for IronScheme is: 2016-05-06T12:22:42Z jcowan: mono /home/cowan/source/IronScheme/IronScheme.Console-v4.exe \ 2016-05-06T12:22:42Z jcowan: -nologo -emacs "$@" 2016-05-06T12:22:43Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, np 2016-05-06T12:22:54Z jcowan: gotta run 2016-05-06T12:22:58Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-06T12:23:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-06T12:26:22Z ecraven: what is the main repo for ypsilon? the one on github? 2016-05-06T12:27:28Z na_th_an joined #scheme 2016-05-06T12:28:35Z groovy2shoes: just because owl lisp has a compiler doesn't mean it's particularly fast 2016-05-06T12:28:43Z ecraven: well, still interesting to compare it 2016-05-06T12:28:55Z ecraven: I need to package all of those for arch linux before I run them 2016-05-06T12:28:57Z oleo joined #scheme 2016-05-06T12:28:57Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2016-05-06T12:28:57Z oleo joined #scheme 2016-05-06T12:28:57Z groovy2shoes: owl lisp's compiler is a bytecode compiler that happens to link the bytecode to the virtual machine to form an executable 2016-05-06T12:29:14Z groovy2shoes: at least, that was once the case... dunno if it still is 2016-05-06T12:32:44Z mejja: ecraven: You need to include QobiScheme in stalin: (include "QobiScheme") Look in stalin-0.11/include. 2016-05-06T12:37:00Z ecraven: mejja: what does that give me? 2016-05-06T12:37:13Z mejja: time, format etc.. 2016-05-06T12:37:20Z ecraven: ah, great, thanks :) 2016-05-06T12:43:27Z ecraven: ok, packaged, now to get the benchmarks running :) 2016-05-06T12:44:35Z t4nk024 joined #scheme 2016-05-06T12:44:39Z t4nk024: hi 2016-05-06T12:44:47Z groovy2shoes: hello 2016-05-06T12:44:57Z t4nk024: im having trouble with doing something with scheme 2016-05-06T12:45:21Z t4nk024: im trying to trace a letrec-declared lambda-abstraction 2016-05-06T12:45:34Z t4nk024: but i keep getting invalid syntax error 2016-05-06T12:46:30Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-06T12:46:47Z rszeno i have troubles too 2016-05-06T12:47:28Z groovy2shoes: t4nk024, okay 2016-05-06T12:48:49Z rszeno: t4nk024, there is something called pastebin, :) 2016-05-06T12:48:51Z t4nk024: https://codeshare.io/KPHZi 2016-05-06T12:49:12Z t4nk024: I've tried using trace-lambda 2016-05-06T12:49:30Z rszeno me and my mouth 2016-05-06T12:49:43Z groovy2shoes: this hipster pastebin won't load for me 2016-05-06T12:49:49Z t4nk024: oh haha sec 2016-05-06T12:50:17Z t4nk024: http://pastebin.com/n5pKdxa1 2016-05-06T12:50:21Z t4nk024: here's a pastebin then :p 2016-05-06T12:50:35Z groovy2shoes: thanks 2016-05-06T12:50:46Z t4nk024: i feel like im missing a fundamental of traces 2016-05-06T12:50:47Z groovy2shoes: whose bright idea was it to use javascript to load a paste? 2016-05-06T12:51:10Z t4nk024: i've checked the documentation but it didn't really seem to answer my question or perhaps im just too new to understand the documentation 2016-05-06T12:52:29Z groovy2shoes: hmm okay what's the problem here? 2016-05-06T12:52:38Z t4nk024: i'm trying to trace it 2016-05-06T12:52:58Z t4nk024: if i do trace-lambda, it gives an invalid syntax error 2016-05-06T12:53:33Z M_D_K: so, wtf is taking R7RS-large so long?! 2016-05-06T12:55:54Z ecraven: M_D_K: lots to do, not many working on it, the usual stuff? 2016-05-06T12:56:22Z M_D_K: is that why there hasn't been a status update in years? 2016-05-06T12:56:33Z M_D_K: nothing to update on? 2016-05-06T12:57:05Z taylan: M_D_K: see SRFI process 2016-05-06T12:57:26Z taylan: and chill the f* down 2016-05-06T12:57:32Z taylan: just as an aside 2016-05-06T12:58:57Z groovy2shoes: taylan, to be fair, it was supposed to come out like half a decade ago now, according to the original charter... 2016-05-06T12:59:39Z ecraven: M_D_K: many of the recent SRFIs are meant as parts of r7rs-large 2016-05-06T13:01:15Z DGASAU: ecraven: in addition, the policy of R7RS-large discourages working on it. 2016-05-06T13:01:29Z M_D_K: wait what? 2016-05-06T13:01:38Z groovy2shoes: DGASAU, what do you mean? 2016-05-06T13:02:15Z DGASAU: The teenager approach that is taken by R7RS discourages working on it. 2016-05-06T13:02:31Z groovy2shoes: I still don't get it :S 2016-05-06T13:03:04Z DGASAU: Have you ever seen rationale for anything proposed as a standard? 2016-05-06T13:03:19Z groovy2shoes: not for R7RS-anything 2016-05-06T13:03:59Z groovy2shoes: I even sent jcowan an email about finding the rationale for R7RS-small a few months ago... his response was that there isn't any, and that the charter for the WG should be good enough 2016-05-06T13:04:01Z DGASAU: Not to mention the story about FPNs in R7RS, which can shortly be summarized as "IEEE FPNs are hard, so lets' do something simpler." 2016-05-06T13:04:04Z t4nk024 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T13:04:04Z groovy2shoes: needless to say, I was quite nonplussed 2016-05-06T13:04:35Z groovy2shoes: no, the charter does not count as rationale 2016-05-06T13:04:46Z M_D_K: lolz, I also bet the internal decision making part of the charter doesn't help 2016-05-06T13:04:50Z eli joined #scheme 2016-05-06T13:04:54Z ecraven: does anyone know how to import srfi-19 into ypsilon? 2016-05-06T13:05:06Z groovy2shoes: also, the WG2 mailing list/google group has been dead for ages 2016-05-06T13:05:59Z ecraven: ah, sitelib is incorrect.. again 2016-05-06T13:06:18Z M_D_K: does working group 2 even have an internal process? 2016-05-06T13:06:24Z DGASAU: groovy2shoes: then you understand why I consider the approach teenagerish. 2016-05-06T13:06:26Z groovy2shoes: I sent the steering committee an email a few months ago telling them that the standardization process needs a swift kick to the arse, but I don't think anyone even checks the SC inbox at this point 2016-05-06T13:06:37Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-06T13:06:40Z groovy2shoes: DGASAU, yes, thanks for clarifying 2016-05-06T13:06:40Z ecraven: well, jcowan has been active with the srfis 2016-05-06T13:07:12Z groovy2shoes: it doesn't help that all the scheme mailing lists in the world all dropped off the 'net 2016-05-06T13:07:44Z groovy2shoes: can't even go look at the WG1 ML archives to try to piece together a rationale 2016-05-06T13:07:48Z DGASAU: In addition, they don't understand the difference between standardization and design. 2016-05-06T13:08:11Z DGASAU: In a number of places they don't standardize anything but design something new. 2016-05-06T13:08:22Z groovy2shoes: to be quite honest, and frank, the whole R7RS process seemed very mickey-mouse to me, like it was a bunch of children playing standards body rather than grown-ups making a standard, but anyhoo... 2016-05-06T13:08:25Z DGASAU: And this design comes without any rationale and review of existing practice. 2016-05-06T13:08:46Z DGASAU: groovy2shoes: my impression exactly. 2016-05-06T13:09:34Z groovy2shoes: glad I'm not the only one 2016-05-06T13:09:43Z DGASAU: (In general, we may differ in details.) 2016-05-06T13:09:45Z groovy2shoes: unfortunate though it is 2016-05-06T13:10:08Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-06T13:10:55Z groovy2shoes: someone needs to phone Will Clinger and tell him his services are needed 2016-05-06T13:11:10Z taylan: he's taking part in the SRFI process 2016-05-06T13:11:11Z groovy2shoes: I'm only about two hours from Duke, so I'll go get Jonathan Rees 2016-05-06T13:12:35Z DGASAU: taylan: I'd be reserved on "taking part." :) 2016-05-06T13:12:49Z nolski is now known as CAPTIAN_NOLSKI 2016-05-06T13:12:54Z DGASAU: "Is a member of body" <> "takes part in the process." 2016-05-06T13:13:13Z CAPTIAN_NOLSKI is now known as nolski 2016-05-06T13:13:31Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-06T13:17:21Z taylan: DGASAU: do you follow the SRFI mailing lists? 2016-05-06T13:17:53Z DGASAU: Not recently. 2016-05-06T13:22:20Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-06T13:23:37Z taylan: DGASAU: well he's taking part, though not very actively 2016-05-06T13:23:53Z Fare joined #scheme 2016-05-06T13:24:13Z DGASAU: Alright. 2016-05-06T13:27:12Z ecraven: I wonder whether a more open process would work.. something like developping the document on github, with whoever wants to adding pull requests 2016-05-06T13:28:27Z taylan: ecraven: SRFIs are developed on GitHub now 2016-05-06T13:28:43Z taylan: https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation 2016-05-06T13:28:52Z DGASAU: ecraven: there's one problem with "open process:" low quality. 2016-05-06T13:29:18Z ecraven: DGASAU: well, wouldn't that depend on what is merged and what isn't? 2016-05-06T13:29:24Z DGASAU: OTOH, it reflects the level of participants. 2016-05-06T13:29:24Z ecraven: (which of course raises that question...) 2016-05-06T13:29:40Z taylan: Larceny is on GitHub too. Chibi too. I don't think quality has much to do with it. 2016-05-06T13:29:53Z ecraven: taylan: this isn't about github, but about the process 2016-05-06T13:30:31Z taylan: well those are all open projects. but then they are implementations and not standardization processes so not the same I guess. 2016-05-06T13:31:29Z groovy2shoes: lol chibi and quality 2016-05-06T13:31:47Z taylan: err, what problem did you have with it? 2016-05-06T13:32:29Z groovy2shoes: last I looked at the source (1.6....2 or maybe 3), it was a complete mess 2016-05-06T13:32:30Z AlexDenisov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T13:32:50Z taylan: I don't use it beyond testing R7RS libraries but it's a small, conformant, and relatively well-performing implementation 2016-05-06T13:32:56Z groovy2shoes: it also uses way more memory than it should, given that it's advertised as being suitable for embedded applications 2016-05-06T13:33:06Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-06T13:33:31Z groovy2shoes: I've seen alex flat-out tell people it's a suitable substitute for TinySCHEME 2016-05-06T13:33:49Z taylan: it's currently on version 0.7.3 2016-05-06T13:33:53Z groovy2shoes: but... TinySCHEME uses around 10K of memory on startup, with all compile-time features enabled 2016-05-06T13:34:05Z groovy2shoes: I know 2016-05-06T13:34:18Z groovy2shoes: I have the latest installed, I just haven't looked at the code in a few years 2016-05-06T13:35:36Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-06T13:35:57Z ecraven: ah, why is it so hard to provide version info at runtime :-/ 2016-05-06T13:36:26Z taylan: ecraven: did you file a ticket? 2016-05-06T13:36:27Z ecraven: mosh: no, ypsilon: no, chibi: no, bones: no, picrin: no, scheme48: no 2016-05-06T13:36:31Z taylan: oh 2016-05-06T13:36:41Z ecraven: at least for all of these I didn't find a way to extract a version number 2016-05-06T13:36:41Z taylan: I thought you meant chibi in particular 2016-05-06T13:37:23Z ecraven: well, I'd really hope R8RS adds (scheme-implementation-name) and (scheme-implementation-version) to the list of mandatory procedures 2016-05-06T13:37:30Z taylan: :) 2016-05-06T13:38:23Z ecraven: so, ypsilon and mosh should work too for the benchmarks 2016-05-06T13:38:40Z ecraven: leppie: ping 2016-05-06T13:40:22Z leppie: ecraven: pong 2016-05-06T13:40:35Z ecraven: leppie: say I wanted to package ironscheme for linux 2016-05-06T13:40:41Z ecraven: it does work on mono, right? 2016-05-06T13:41:16Z leppie: yeah, mono 2.x+ should work 2016-05-06T13:41:19Z ecraven: did anyone ever build it with mono? 2016-05-06T13:41:37Z ecraven: there's no Makefile or so, and I don't think a VS solution helps me much :-/ 2016-05-06T13:43:41Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-06T13:44:12Z rszeno joined #scheme 2016-05-06T13:45:44Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T13:48:21Z leppie: ecraven: too difficult to build with mono :( 2016-05-06T13:49:20Z leppie: build is very 'specialized' 2016-05-06T13:50:01Z leppie: involves lots of bytecode patching, manual linking and AOP stuff 2016-05-06T13:51:40Z ecraven: so I'd have to just get the binary and use that? 2016-05-06T13:52:32Z ecraven: see, owl lisp is nice, just defines *owl-version* as a global :D 2016-05-06T13:53:09Z leppie: yeah, that will work, just add a dep for mono, and let the package installer compile the Scheme libraries: echo (compile-system-libraries) | IronScheme.ConsoleXXX.exe 2016-05-06T13:53:16Z leppie: (ironscheme-version) 2016-05-06T13:54:45Z ecraven: leppie: great! 2016-05-06T13:54:52Z ecraven: lots of schemes don't seem to have that :-/ 2016-05-06T13:54:58Z leppie: The basic compiled package just supports R6RS and a few extras, but you really need the extra libs to do anything useful (with the CLR at least) 2016-05-06T13:55:20Z ecraven: leppie: I'd be interested in running the benchmarks at http://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-benchmarks 2016-05-06T13:55:29Z leppie: compiling the 180 odd libs takes about 30 seconds 2016-05-06T13:55:39Z ecraven: I'll look into that later, thanks for the hints! 2016-05-06T13:56:25Z leppie: USe the same as vicare, should work 2016-05-06T13:57:02Z leppie: but you really want to precompile as a library to skip that step, will check out the code 2016-05-06T13:58:40Z leppie: ecraven: do you strip the R7RS imports for R6RS implementations? 2016-05-06T13:59:59Z leppie: ecraven: as a hint, symlink your prefered IronScheme.ConsoleXXX.exe to isc (that should skip the logo, and make it much shorter to call ;p) 2016-05-06T14:00:00Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-05-06T14:00:10Z ecraven: leppie: yes 2016-05-06T14:00:51Z ecraven: I'm hoping that things get better over time, but right now I have a custom prelude and postlude for each scheme, and some sed magic for a few implementations 2016-05-06T14:01:25Z leppie: hmmm, maybe I can fork that repo and setup something for IronScheme to precompile (to save some embarresment ;) 2016-05-06T14:01:50Z ecraven: leppie: I'll gladly take a pull request :) 2016-05-06T14:04:32Z leppie: hmmm, symlink thingy not working, exec format error 2016-05-06T14:07:54Z ecraven: I don't think owl lisp would work, it's too far from scheme.. no read, newline, current-output-port, etc. 2016-05-06T14:08:02Z leppie: alias isc="mono ~/IronScheme/IronScheme.Console-v4.exe" seems ok, but not really working as intended 2016-05-06T14:09:07Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-06T14:10:33Z XTL quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-06T14:24:27Z leppie: ecraven: mono /home/leppie/IronScheme/IronScheme.Console-v4.exe: No such file or directory 2016-05-06T14:24:38Z leppie: yet when I run it, it works 2016-05-06T14:26:02Z z0d: leppie: the No such file or directory is not the exe file 2016-05-06T14:26:11Z z0d: not for the* 2016-05-06T14:26:26Z z0d: probably tries to open something which isn't there 2016-05-06T14:27:09Z leppie: ahh OK 2016-05-06T14:27:30Z groovy2shoes: http://hastebin.com/ikidefatus.coffee 2016-05-06T14:27:33Z groovy2shoes: there we are 2016-05-06T14:27:43Z ecraven: leppie: I'll just need another few minutes to finish a document here, at the latest in about 3 hours I'll have some time to try to get IronScheme to work :) 2016-05-06T14:27:45Z groovy2shoes: for the record, I don't hate Chibi... I use it all the time 2016-05-06T14:28:11Z groovy2shoes: but I wouldn't describe it as "quality" and I think it's dishonest to say that it's "good for embedded" 2016-05-06T14:29:33Z Riastradh: For many, `embedded' means `>=armv7, >=1 GB RAM' these days... 2016-05-06T14:30:54Z groovy2shoes: well, in that case, anything is suitable for embedded 2016-05-06T14:31:00Z groovy2shoes: even SBCL will run on that 2016-05-06T14:31:26Z leppie: ecraven: need to be double quoted for time to work 2016-05-06T14:31:41Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: very cool! 2016-05-06T14:32:24Z XTL joined #scheme 2016-05-06T14:32:25Z ecraven: Riastradh: do you have any idea why MIT/GNU Scheme's `equal?' would have a problem with very deep structures? 2016-05-06T14:32:51Z leppie: ffs, still no go in script... 2016-05-06T14:33:10Z ecraven: the equal benchmark at http://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-benchmarks (just run ./bench mit equal) doesn't seem to finish within a reasonable amount of time, yet some other schemes finish within a few seconds 2016-05-06T14:36:22Z leppie: how do I double quote in a shell script? 2016-05-06T14:36:48Z leppie: actually I dont need any... 2016-05-06T14:36:55Z leppie is a linux idiot 2016-05-06T14:38:24Z ineiros joined #scheme 2016-05-06T14:40:14Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-06T14:40:28Z leppie: If I give full path, it works though 2016-05-06T14:42:51Z Riastradh: ecraven: Limited by stack depth. 2016-05-06T14:44:46Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-05-06T14:51:49Z leppie: ecraven: read-line is not R6RS (found in tail) 2016-05-06T14:53:59Z greatscottttt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T14:56:32Z leppie: mono just kills itself... 2016-05-06T14:56:34Z DGASAU: Riastradh: personally, I find it weird. 2016-05-06T14:57:07Z DGASAU: "Embedded" doesn't mean any requirements on CPU, its speed or amount of RAM. 2016-05-06T14:57:53Z DGASAU: You can find embedded systems on market that have more RAM than all your desktop systems combined. 2016-05-06T14:58:35Z leppie: that said, generic arithmetic sucks bad on IronScheme.... 2016-05-06T14:58:49Z Riastradh: No doubt there are others who say it's not embedded if it can run Quake. 2016-05-06T14:59:45Z z0d: and nowadays, we have emscripten... 2016-05-06T14:59:46Z ecraven: Riastradh: ah, I'll try that, thanks! 2016-05-06T15:01:13Z Riastradh: ecraven: Better approach: don't rely on equal? for very deep objects; either invent your own equality procedure or redesign your data structure to be not so deep. 2016-05-06T15:07:38Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-05-06T15:08:00Z greatscottttt quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-06T15:08:17Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T15:10:45Z br0kenman quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-06T15:11:54Z rjnw joined #scheme 2016-05-06T15:20:06Z AlexDenisov quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-06T15:31:01Z mejja: It's a circular list.. 2016-05-06T15:33:35Z leppie: ecraven: sent pull request :) (not even sure it is worth running it... slow and broken :( ) 2016-05-06T15:53:07Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T15:54:16Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:07:42Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:11:03Z Crashlog quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:13:03Z scarygelatin joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:20:14Z manumanumanu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T16:20:45Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:25:04Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:25:21Z Neet quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:25:26Z ecraven: mejja: even if you disable that test, with default settings mit doesn't finish 2016-05-06T16:26:39Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:26:50Z z0d joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:27:05Z askatasuna_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:28:04Z dan64 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:28:08Z grettke quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-06T16:28:18Z Neet joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:28:40Z erg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:28:40Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:28:49Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:29:09Z oleo_ joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:29:14Z erg joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:29:15Z marlun quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:31:30Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:31:39Z badkins: ecraven: looks like Racket bumped up to a tie for 2nd place on the "faster than others" benchmark - what changed other than 6.5 ? 2016-05-06T16:31:50Z badkins: oops nm, it's 6.4 2016-05-06T16:32:31Z ecraven: badkins: it runs a lot more tests, I'm using the r7rs modelu 2016-05-06T16:32:44Z ecraven: module, lexi_lambda 2016-05-06T16:32:44Z badkins: ah, that makes sense 2016-05-06T16:33:15Z NaNDude joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:33:21Z askatasuna joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:33:56Z ecraven: mejja: also, residential memory stays at 24m, but cpu is pegged at 100% for 5 minutes (then it gets killed) 2016-05-06T16:34:41Z logicmoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T16:34:51Z leppie: IronScheme finishes equal IIRC :D (one of the few it does) 2016-05-06T16:35:12Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:36:13Z jcowan: hey hye 2016-05-06T16:36:16Z dmiles joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:38:38Z dan64 joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:40:27Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:41:10Z marlun joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:41:19Z ggole joined #scheme 2016-05-06T16:42:01Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-06T16:42:10Z leot quit (Quit: BBL) 2016-05-06T16:47:58Z mokuso quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-06T16:50:00Z leppie: yeah it does, in 11 seconds (one of the faster ones IronScheme does, uses the dybvig equal implementation) 2016-05-06T16:58:56Z pllx joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:02:57Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-06T17:03:09Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T17:04:09Z manumanumanu joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:04:24Z rszeno joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:08:29Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:10:18Z mj12`_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T17:10:59Z leppie: ecraven: you should just limit benches to 60 seconds, most will complete in that time frame anyways 2016-05-06T17:13:51Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:14:14Z tos-1 joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:18:43Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:19:36Z nanoz joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:20:24Z manumanumanu: leppie: thanks for ironscheme :) It is the only scheme I can use at work :) 2016-05-06T17:20:42Z leppie: manumanumanu :D 2016-05-06T17:21:25Z manumanumanu: the others wont install (we are not allowed to install stuff) or wont run for some reason. ironscheme works like a charm :D 2016-05-06T17:22:49Z leppie: hehe 2016-05-06T17:24:27Z leppie: not sure why people just dont go portable, I used to have installers, but PITA. Zip files is all you need. Pretty sure most Schemes would work without an installer 2016-05-06T17:27:28Z Crashlog joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:29:46Z rjnw quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-06T17:35:41Z ecraven: leppie: I'm limiting them to 5 minutes now, some take quite some time 2016-05-06T17:37:29Z mj12` joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:38:00Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:38:13Z nanoz quit (Changing host) 2016-05-06T17:38:13Z nanoz joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:38:25Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-06T17:38:48Z nanoz quit (Quit: <3) 2016-05-06T17:39:00Z nanoz joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:39:01Z nanoz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T17:41:39Z nanoz joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:41:53Z Fare joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:42:39Z amgarching joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:53:54Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:54:59Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-06T17:55:12Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-06T17:56:17Z xyh-sleeping is now known as xieyuheng 2016-05-06T17:56:34Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T17:56:37Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-06T17:57:12Z Menche joined #scheme 2016-05-06T18:02:28Z ecraven: leppie: thanks for the pull request, I'll try it out right now 2016-05-06T18:02:36Z ecraven: leppie: what was the problem with the order of the postludes? 2016-05-06T18:02:41Z AlexDenisov quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-06T18:03:21Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-06T18:05:08Z leppie: if postlude can be appended after common, I can make sure common forms part of a body, eg prelude "(begin" / postlude ")" 2016-05-06T18:05:28Z leppie: cc ecraven 2016-05-06T18:06:33Z ecraven: leppie: hm.. I'll need to think about that, there is one scheme that doesn't cope with anything before (import) but also all definitions have to be before (main) 2016-05-06T18:06:39Z ecraven: thus the "interlude" :) 2016-05-06T18:06:44Z jshjsh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T18:06:48Z ecraven: I could of course do pre/inter/post-lude : 2016-05-06T18:07:48Z leppie: ecraven: I just need it for nesting the benchmark code in a library body 2016-05-06T18:08:21Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T18:08:28Z ecraven: yea, I understand 2016-05-06T18:08:43Z ecraven: I'll get back to you, just pulling in your changes and trying them out 2016-05-06T18:09:07Z ecraven: but they look good (apart from the default value for $IRONSCHEME, the default will just be IronScheme.Console-v4.exe or something like that) 2016-05-06T18:09:29Z leppie: also, 'not quite cheating' but allow implementation specific benches, eg fib.ironscheme.sch 2016-05-06T18:09:48Z stepnem joined #scheme 2016-05-06T18:10:09Z leppie: ecraven: that was the only way I could get them working, I suck at shell scripts 2016-05-06T18:10:54Z ecraven: leppie: that I don't want :) 2016-05-06T18:11:05Z ecraven: ideally, I want to get all implementations to run the exact same (r7rs) code 2016-05-06T18:11:32Z leppie: wrt to previous, this allows one to tweak/showcase your performance for the best case scenario 2016-05-06T18:11:35Z ecraven: apart from this-scheme-implementation-version, there's really nothing that isn't part of r7rs-small that is needed here, I think 2016-05-06T18:11:48Z leppie: (maybe add it as an extra step?) 2016-05-06T18:12:06Z ecraven: I think that would be a different benchmark project 2016-05-06T18:12:24Z leppie: it is like saying, this is basic, but look what I can do with some tweaks :D 2016-05-06T18:12:31Z leppie: run both 2016-05-06T18:12:40Z leppie: might be interesting 2016-05-06T18:13:06Z ecraven: hm.. I'd rather not go that way, I think 2016-05-06T18:13:22Z ecraven: afk for a bit, then I'll merge and test :) 2016-05-06T18:16:42Z leppie: there could be say a baseline and optimized timing 2016-05-06T18:17:10Z leppie: this would obviously require unit testing the results :D 2016-05-06T18:17:32Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-06T18:18:04Z leppie: currently I am sure I could just ignore the payload and get best times :D 2016-05-06T18:21:33Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-06T18:21:44Z AlexDenisov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T18:22:14Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-06T18:24:46Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-06T18:25:22Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T18:30:07Z schememan joined #scheme 2016-05-06T18:30:30Z schememan: Hi, anyone familiar with how to retrieve the last n elements of a list recursively? 2016-05-06T18:31:56Z wasamasa: simple, throw away the beginning of the list until the remainder's length is n 2016-05-06T18:32:07Z wasamasa: not much sense in it though... 2016-05-06T18:32:50Z schememan: Lol yeah the theory behind it is simple, but I'm having trouble implementing it in scheme. I've figured out how to produce the first n elements of a list, but I am having trouble getting the last n elements 2016-05-06T18:33:20Z jcowan: (define (take-right lis k) 2016-05-06T18:33:20Z jcowan: (check-arg integer? k take-right) 2016-05-06T18:33:20Z jcowan: (let lp ((lag lis) (lead (drop lis k))) 2016-05-06T18:33:20Z jcowan: (if (pair? lead) 2016-05-06T18:33:20Z jcowan: (lp (cdr lag) (cdr lead)) 2016-05-06T18:33:21Z jcowan: lag))) 2016-05-06T18:33:51Z jcowan: where drop is 2016-05-06T18:34:11Z jcowan: (define (drop lis k) 2016-05-06T18:34:11Z jcowan: (check-arg integer? k drop) 2016-05-06T18:34:11Z jcowan: (let iter ((lis lis) (k k)) 2016-05-06T18:34:11Z jcowan: (if (zero? k) lis (iter (cdr lis) (- k 1))))) 2016-05-06T18:34:18Z jcowan: and you can ignore the check-arg 2016-05-06T18:38:52Z pepton2 joined #scheme 2016-05-06T18:41:38Z schememan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T18:44:58Z ecraven: what about (reverse (take (reverse ...))) 2016-05-06T18:45:10Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-06T18:45:33Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-06T18:46:01Z Fare joined #scheme 2016-05-06T18:48:52Z leppie: ecraven: what does jiffies-per-second do? does it have meaning? 2016-05-06T18:49:14Z ecraven: leppie: yes, r7rs specifies that 2016-05-06T18:49:18Z ecraven: current-jiffies returns some integer 2016-05-06T18:49:21Z ecraven: or even float 2016-05-06T18:49:32Z ecraven: jiffies-per-second tells you how to convert that into seconds 2016-05-06T18:49:34Z leppie: but does it matter for the bench? 2016-05-06T18:49:44Z ecraven: yes, for the actual timing of the benchmark test 2016-05-06T18:50:00Z ecraven: the code times itself, in order to avoid timing startup and so on 2016-05-06T18:50:04Z leppie: so I can just make it 1000000000000000 ? :D 2016-05-06T18:50:17Z ecraven: yea, that'd make you very fast! 2016-05-06T18:50:26Z ecraven: talk to VW :p 2016-05-06T18:50:27Z leppie: sweet!~ 2016-05-06T18:51:02Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T18:52:14Z leppie: Elapsed time: 1.1895188e-8 seconds \o/ 2016-05-06T18:52:20Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-06T18:52:27Z leppie: seems 1 is a sane value 2016-05-06T18:53:17Z AlexDenisov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T18:53:28Z ecraven: leppie: that depends on how you implement current-jiffy :) 2016-05-06T18:53:48Z ecraven: I've mostly just used it to return seconds with fractional parts, then jiffies-per-second would obviously be 1 2016-05-06T18:53:59Z ecraven: but some schemes return timing in nanoseconds, so 1000000000 is better :) 2016-05-06T18:54:01Z leppie: just took it from vicare, dunno what it does really 2016-05-06T18:54:06Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-06T18:54:32Z leppie: Does it matter? 2016-05-06T18:54:35Z ecraven: leppie: btw. I've just added a shell script "ironscheme" to my personal bin path that runs ironscheme correctly.. probably there's no good way around that 2016-05-06T18:54:47Z ecraven: leppie: well, if the times are off, I'll fix it :) 2016-05-06T18:55:38Z leppie: please share :D will add to dist 2016-05-06T18:55:47Z ecraven: seems to be ok, ironscheme reports 18.24 seconds, time says 19.863 2016-05-06T18:56:00Z ecraven: so about 1.5s overhead for startup/output/teardown 2016-05-06T18:56:06Z ecraven: I'll put the script into the README.org 2016-05-06T18:58:05Z leppie: I can previde accurate timing, but I need to know how it works, which I currently dont... 2016-05-06T18:58:25Z leppie: which test was that? 2016-05-06T18:58:35Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-06T18:58:36Z ecraven: leppie: echo "(compile-system-libraries)" | ironscheme -> i/o-file-does-not-exist: "system-libraries.srfi.ss" 2016-05-06T18:58:43Z ecraven: ./bench ironscheme browse 2016-05-06T18:58:47Z ecraven: it's one of the faster tests 2016-05-06T18:59:34Z leppie: same timing here (almost exactly!) 2016-05-06T18:59:58Z leppie: of course that file exist! 2016-05-06T19:01:13Z ecraven: well, I didn't run that in the IronScheme directory :D 2016-05-06T19:01:29Z leppie: should not matter 2016-05-06T19:01:51Z lucasem joined #scheme 2016-05-06T19:02:06Z ecraven: does, now it works :) 2016-05-06T19:02:10Z leppie: hmm, perhaps it does matter :D 2016-05-06T19:02:17Z leppie: sorry 2016-05-06T19:02:31Z ecraven: not a problem at all 2016-05-06T19:02:50Z leppie: at least IronScheme compiles fast :D 2016-05-06T19:03:13Z ecraven: I'll be mostly afk until monday or tuesday, but I hope to finish a full run of all supported schemes by tomorrow, and put up the new data :) 2016-05-06T19:03:41Z leppie: not sure that will be enough time for IronScheme though :D 2016-05-06T19:03:59Z ecraven: oh, the test runs are all limited to 5min for compiling and 5min for running 2016-05-06T19:04:13Z leppie: if you have 32-bit mono, you may have more luck 2016-05-06T19:04:14Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-06T19:04:32Z ecraven: I might need to widen that a bit, but most failures are fast. I need to fix the tests, to be full r7rs, but not much time now 2016-05-06T19:04:44Z francoisk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-06T19:04:58Z leppie: really talking about mono segfaulting and stack overflows (due to lack of proper tail calls in mono) 2016-05-06T19:05:25Z ecraven: ah, I thought you were probably trampolining or something like that 2016-05-06T19:05:38Z leppie: where the cursor stop blinking, you know mono is shitting itself 2016-05-06T19:06:05Z ecraven: hm.. foment seems the slowest so far :-/ 2016-05-06T19:06:06Z leppie: no, I rely on a proper tail call runtime, which mono fakes 2016-05-06T19:06:16Z ecraven: ah, .NET has that? 2016-05-06T19:07:02Z ecraven: so, have to go, thanks for your help, looking forward to seeing the results tomorrow morning :) 2016-05-06T19:07:05Z leppie: yes it does, and the MS impl does a pretty got job honouring that, it is about 7 times slower than a normal call though, but it honours it! 2016-05-06T19:07:20Z leppie: ecraven: have fun 2016-05-06T19:07:24Z ecraven: you too 2016-05-06T19:09:35Z leppie: I have added some analysis to detect non-recursive calls, so I can avoid tail calls in IronScheme which helps a bit 2016-05-06T19:10:59Z leppie: it is a cheap analysis though, so many non-recursive procs dont get tagged as such, but good enough for the general case. 2016-05-06T19:13:09Z ecraven: by the way, Bones looks like a very interesting Scheme, not interactive, but seems to work without libc, if necessary 2016-05-06T19:13:41Z leppie: never heard of it before I saw the script 2016-05-06T19:22:06Z githogori joined #scheme 2016-05-06T19:25:17Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2016-05-06T19:27:45Z t4nk485 joined #scheme 2016-05-06T19:28:21Z t4nk485: whats an if statement that would check the length of a list with an input, e.g. n? 2016-05-06T19:28:41Z t4nk485: (if (< (length (list)) n)) 2016-05-06T19:28:51Z t4nk485: that doesnt work, obviously because i winged it haha 2016-05-06T19:28:58Z t4nk485: but how would you do it properly? 2016-05-06T19:29:32Z lucasem: it's (length lst) 2016-05-06T19:29:37Z lucasem: for a list named lst 2016-05-06T19:30:05Z t4nk485: so (if < (length list) n) would work? 2016-05-06T19:30:07Z lucasem: (if (< (length lst) (length otherlst)) 'smaller 'larger) 2016-05-06T19:30:23Z lucasem: you need parens around <, it's a procedure on its own 2016-05-06T19:30:49Z t4nk485: i see, ill give it a try :p 2016-05-06T19:31:33Z lucasem: (if #t 'true 'false), and expression like (< 1 2) return #t (or #f) otherwise, which is used as the condition 2016-05-06T19:34:50Z t4nk485: (define pop (lambda (list n) (if (number? n) (if (< (length list) n) (if (= n 0) list (pop (cdr list) (- n 1))) (errorf 'pop "index ~s is out of bounds", n)) (errorf 'pop "index ~s is not right", n)))) 2016-05-06T19:34:54Z t4nk485: lmao ok nvm that doesnt work 2016-05-06T19:35:37Z t4nk485: http://codepad.org/KeAbSrqj 2016-05-06T19:36:14Z t4nk485: i suppose my implementation is wrong? 2016-05-06T19:36:34Z lucasem: t4nk485: there shouldnt be any commas 2016-05-06T19:36:37Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-06T19:36:51Z lucasem: (unless you're in a quasiquote, which you aren't using) 2016-05-06T19:39:02Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T19:39:13Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-06T19:39:54Z t4nk485: ah i see 2016-05-06T19:40:26Z t4nk485: one last thing, i want to display an error message e.g. "the index N is out of bounds for list L" 2016-05-06T19:40:53Z t4nk485: the error from using commas was because i was trying to do "bla bla N bla bla L" N, L 2016-05-06T19:40:58Z t4nk485: but thats wrong haha 2016-05-06T19:41:21Z lucasem: I don't know how to do string formatting like that 2016-05-06T19:41:35Z lucasem: you could write a function that creates an error message given the arguments 2016-05-06T19:42:01Z t4nk485: well with 1 variable, it's just (errorf 'pop "the index ~s is out of bounds" n) 2016-05-06T19:42:46Z lucasem: just supply another argument? 2016-05-06T19:42:58Z lucasem: arguments are space-delimited, no commas like in most c-like languages 2016-05-06T19:43:49Z t4nk485: yeah i've been doing a lot of mistakes because i keep forgetting its syntax 2016-05-06T19:44:54Z lucasem: t4nk485: syntax is actually super-duper simple. Just parens and spaces. First thing in a paren is a procedure. 2016-05-06T19:45:23Z leppie: lucasem is a macro 2016-05-06T19:45:31Z leppie: lucasem or a macro 2016-05-06T19:45:35Z leppie: oops 2016-05-06T19:45:48Z t4nk485: yeah, ive figured as much, its just habit 2016-05-06T19:45:56Z lucasem: leppie: hehe I *am* a macro! 2016-05-06T19:46:39Z stasku____ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-06T19:46:43Z leppie: (define-syntax-rule (lucasem) 'macro) 2016-05-06T19:46:47Z lucasem: that's why you should avoid macros, save the usual let stuff (and I suppose define-record-type) 2016-05-06T19:46:55Z lucasem: lol 2016-05-06T19:47:43Z t4nk485: thanks a lot for the help! 2016-05-06T19:47:59Z stasku____ joined #scheme 2016-05-06T19:52:16Z t4nk485 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T19:55:31Z ggole quit 2016-05-06T19:58:09Z jcowan: There is no reason to avoid macros written by others, particularly the standard Scheme ones and the ones provided by your implementation. 2016-05-06T19:58:17Z jcowan: Think twice before writing your own novel macros, however. 2016-05-06T19:59:22Z lucasem: The ones that come with scheme are very useful. New ones are often used to solve problems that should be done with better design. 2016-05-06T19:59:32Z lucasem: Not everyone is a professional with macrology :P 2016-05-06T20:00:11Z safe joined #scheme 2016-05-06T20:03:13Z xieyuheng is now known as celtic-boy 2016-05-06T20:05:28Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T20:11:39Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T20:18:27Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2016-05-06T20:28:13Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-06T20:34:30Z celtic-boy quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160503215307]) 2016-05-06T20:36:26Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-06T20:42:41Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-06T20:48:12Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T20:48:44Z ccmaru joined #scheme 2016-05-06T20:49:14Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T20:49:18Z AlexDenisov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T20:49:48Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-06T20:51:37Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-06T20:57:25Z ccmaru quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-06T21:01:31Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T21:05:23Z davorb: can anyone tell me if geiser has support for chez? 2016-05-06T21:06:15Z akkad quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T21:07:00Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T21:07:44Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T21:08:30Z pllx joined #scheme 2016-05-06T21:10:37Z akkad joined #scheme 2016-05-06T21:10:51Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-05-06T21:12:57Z text1 joined #scheme 2016-05-06T21:13:13Z drot: preliminary support was added about 10 days ago 2016-05-06T21:13:17Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-06T21:14:18Z turtleman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-06T21:16:11Z safe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T21:18:15Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-07T05:31:33Z ecraven: Riastradh: seriously, n 5 *and* 6 in one declaration? 2016-05-07T05:32:13Z ecraven: so I'd suggest (rnrs r5rs (6) ((7))) next :D 2016-05-07T05:32:53Z Riastradh: Sounds good to me! 2016-05-07T05:33:21Z ecraven: but wouldn't that blatantly disregard the important historical contributions? 2016-05-07T05:33:36Z ecraven: maybe (rnrs r5rs (1) (2) (3) (4) (6) (7))? 2016-05-07T05:36:17Z ecraven: Riastradh: by the way, benchmark1 in the equal benchmark seems to be the problem, even if I give mit --stack 500000, it never finishes ;-/ 2016-05-07T05:38:34Z Riastradh: Bummer. 2016-05-07T05:50:12Z mejja: R6 is pretty funny... 2016-05-07T05:51:29Z Menche joined #scheme 2016-05-07T05:56:50Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-07T05:58:27Z xieyuheng: how scheme benchmarks can be portable but code can not be ? 2016-05-07T06:02:56Z ecraven: xieyuheng: look at the benchmark code. some of it is very simple 2016-05-07T06:03:10Z ecraven: the more complex ones don't run on all the benchmark Schemes yet 2016-05-07T06:03:27Z xieyuheng: alas ~ 2016-05-07T06:03:43Z ecraven: some of it is simple to fix (r6rs doesn't export read-line, quotient and modulo by default), but define-record-type is plain incompatible.. not sure how to make that work 2016-05-07T06:09:44Z tmtwd joined #scheme 2016-05-07T06:09:53Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-07T06:28:11Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T06:39:33Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-07T06:41:31Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2016-05-07T06:41:41Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T06:45:12Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-07T06:45:13Z leppie joined #scheme 2016-05-07T06:50:31Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-05-07T06:53:17Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-07T06:54:29Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-07T06:56:52Z ecraven: does r6rs really not include `read-line' anywhere? 2016-05-07T07:04:20Z vydd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-07T07:04:28Z lynx` joined #scheme 2016-05-07T07:07:12Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T07:09:02Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-07T07:09:05Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-07T07:10:18Z amgarching joined #scheme 2016-05-07T07:10:20Z Steverman joined #scheme 2016-05-07T07:19:27Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T07:20:36Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-07T07:25:25Z tos-1 joined #scheme 2016-05-07T07:27:59Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T07:28:20Z xieyuheng is now known as xyh 2016-05-07T07:33:48Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-07T07:41:49Z amgarching quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-07T07:56:59Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-07T08:06:29Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T08:13:31Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-07T08:14:23Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-07T08:15:40Z lynx` quit (Quit: ...) 2016-05-07T08:22:50Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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in R6 (and R7?) is easily on the top 10 list of bad ideas in the history of mankind.. 2016-05-07T13:33:01Z mejja: 1. left-hand traffic / 2. women's liberation movement / 3. c++ / 4. federal assault weapons ban / 5. R6RS equal? / 2016-05-07T13:35:38Z z0d: why¿ 2016-05-07T13:36:26Z foof`: i think a separate procedure would have been better, but it's useful. 2016-05-07T13:36:59Z foof`: in almost all cases you can implement it with negligible overhead, but in pathological cases you lose. 2016-05-07T13:37:37Z grettke quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-07T13:41:16Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2016-05-07T13:43:39Z turtlemanMobile quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T13:57:33Z wasamasa: mejja: please take your sexism elsewhere 2016-05-07T14:01:31Z mejja: Don't worry kid. The set of female hackers is the empty set. 2016-05-07T14:02:18Z groovy2shoes: not really 2016-05-07T14:02:30Z groovy2shoes: it's a small set, to be sure, but it ain't empty 2016-05-07T14:02:34Z wasamasa: if you have a problem with that, don't use freenode 2016-05-07T14:02:54Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T14:06:06Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T14:11:00Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-07T14:11:11Z mokuso: I thought there's no sexism in Sweden 2016-05-07T14:18:35Z mokuso quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-07T14:24:33Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2016-05-07T14:28:21Z foof`: groovy2shoes: ok, on a quick check, starting up a minimal chibi build was ~1/2 the rss of the default tinyscheme 1.41. 2016-05-07T14:30:16Z groovy2shoes: foof`, cool. I'll check it out :) 2016-05-07T14:31:11Z foof`: unfair comparison, but they're certainly in the same ballpark. anyway, if sizes that small actually matter for an application you need to understand how to customize your extension lang for size. 2016-05-07T14:31:47Z groovy2shoes: foof`, I also noticed that the VSS was much bigger than the RSS, which usually means the process is requesting a bunch of memory from the OS that it's not actually using (yet) 2016-05-07T14:32:14Z foof`: yeah, it uses a 2M heap by default, that's what -h is for 2016-05-07T14:33:28Z foof`: the defaults these days are more tuned for r7rs out of the box, but it's still possible to make things small. 2016-05-07T14:33:29Z groovy2shoes: the difference seems to be around 30M, though 2016-05-07T14:34:23Z foof`: for everything in the core language plus every r7rs-small library (which transitively pulls in a bunch of other chibi shared libs) 2016-05-07T14:34:46Z foof`: you need to specify the language with -x if you want anything small 2016-05-07T14:35:32Z foof`: -Q in particular is just primitives, -q those plus a richer set of utilities than tinyscheme has 2016-05-07T14:38:38Z foof`: i'll make this a little more clear in the manpage 2016-05-07T14:51:23Z foof`: ok, with -q it's about 150% larger rss than tinyscheme, i'm pretty sure it would use less memory loading the equivalent language of tiny, but close enough not to matter much. 2016-05-07T14:51:49Z foof`: (use less memory than tiny that is) 2016-05-07T14:56:02Z nanoz joined #scheme 2016-05-07T14:56:11Z tmtwd joined #scheme 2016-05-07T15:18:20Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-05-07T15:21:02Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T15:29:27Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T15:36:01Z groscoe_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-07T15:36:27Z groscoe__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-07T15:36:27Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2016-05-07T15:36:32Z groscoe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-07T15:54:32Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T15:55:34Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-07T15:57:54Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-07T16:00:04Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-07T16:02:41Z francoisk joined #scheme 2016-05-07T16:09:09Z DGASAU: foof`: why there's discussion of static linking again? 2016-05-07T16:09:26Z DGASAU: Virtually nobody does that nowadays, and nobody should, actually. 2016-05-07T16:10:49Z DGASAU: (Exceptions exist, but they are so rare and so special that you don't need to mention them.) 2016-05-07T16:12:10Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-07T16:12:12Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T16:16:58Z JuanDaugherty joined #scheme 2016-05-07T16:20:28Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-07T16:21:32Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-07T16:21:56Z floor13 joined #scheme 2016-05-07T16:24:12Z rszeno: DGASAU: popularity is a reason to do or not something? :) 2016-05-07T16:24:46Z DGASAU: No. 2016-05-07T16:25:27Z DGASAU: There're strong security and maintainability reasons combined with negligible performance hit (if any at all). 2016-05-07T16:28:43Z rszeno: :) not realy, is the just the "easy" way 2016-05-07T16:29:30Z DGASAU: How "easy" enters the issue? 2016-05-07T16:29:37Z DGASAU: Static linking is more complex. 2016-05-07T16:29:48Z nanoz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-07T16:29:50Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-07T16:30:16Z rszeno: how this? 2016-05-07T16:30:22Z DGASAU: Just that! 2016-05-07T16:30:46Z DGASAU: Check what it involves to link shared libraries and static libraries. 2016-05-07T16:33:00Z rszeno: ok, but i doubt, contrary i thing that is same complexity, but i don't know 2016-05-07T16:34:44Z floor13 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-07T16:35:11Z DGASAU: FYI: in order to link statically you need to _learn_ indirect dependencies first and then pass the whole transitive closure of all dependencies to linker. 2016-05-07T16:36:43Z DGASAU: _Or_ you need to employ tools like libtool, which essentially builds a framework that makes operating with static libraries similar to shared libraries. 2016-05-07T16:38:48Z X-Scale quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-07T16:38:48Z abbe quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-07T16:38:48Z sytse quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-07T16:38:48Z averell quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-07T16:38:58Z abbe joined #scheme 2016-05-07T16:39:12Z rszeno: i agree, but what is happend if the linked file is missing or is the wrong version, or simply is something else ( hostile or not, nosecurity reason ) 2016-05-07T16:39:45Z DGASAU: How do you think, what happens to all-statically linked program these days? ;) 2016-05-07T16:39:53Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2016-05-07T16:40:20Z rszeno: yes, :) 2016-05-07T16:40:55Z DGASAU: Note that dynamically linked program works in the default case. ;) 2016-05-07T16:41:15Z DGASAU: In contrast to all-statically linked one. 2016-05-07T16:41:45Z rszeno: i use debian so i know how they work, :) 2016-05-07T16:41:57Z DGASAU: Oh, right, Debian. 2016-05-07T16:42:30Z DGASAU: "Truly random, chosen by throwing a real die." 2016-05-07T16:42:44Z rszeno: yes, :) 2016-05-07T16:42:56Z DGASAU: In any modern system it doesn't work because of ASLR. 2016-05-07T16:44:29Z rszeno: yes, i was present when the "problem" with static linking was "discovered" 2016-05-07T16:45:57Z ecraven: manumanumanu: in case you still have that friend on reddit or HN, new results are online, more exhaustive. now would be ok :) 2016-05-07T16:46:11Z rszeno: from my point of view was just a simplification a more complex problem 2016-05-07T16:46:15Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2016-05-07T16:46:26Z ecraven: benchmark on various schemes: http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/scheme-benchmarks-r7rs.html 2016-05-07T16:46:38Z ecraven: and again.. http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/scheme-benchmark-r7rs.html 2016-05-07T16:46:51Z DGASAU: What is a simplification and of which problem? 2016-05-07T16:46:57Z DGASAU: Static linking is never a simplification. 2016-05-07T16:47:13Z rszeno: security 2016-05-07T16:47:21Z DGASAU: Oh... 2016-05-07T16:47:34Z DGASAU: Static linking is the best result to fail security. 2016-05-07T16:47:45Z DGASAU: the best way 2016-05-07T16:47:57Z TheLemonMan: ecraven, why there are two stray sumfp results ? 2016-05-07T16:48:33Z DGASAU: When you use shared libraries, you take vulnerable one away, and voila: vulnerable applications, if remain, stop working. 2016-05-07T16:48:47Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T16:48:55Z DGASAU: If you use static linking, you hardly know which application is linked against what. 2016-05-07T16:49:07Z ecraven: TheLemonMan: ah, my fault, gambit and mit print 12345.0 as 12345. (without the trailing 0), I'm aggregating incorrectly 2016-05-07T16:49:39Z TheLemonMan: ecraven, mosh and vicare results are also split 2016-05-07T16:50:15Z ecraven: yea, they print 1e6 and 1000000 2016-05-07T16:52:04Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T16:52:04Z DGASAU: ...Plus potential zero-day vulnerabilities to buffer overflow attacks since addresses are now predictable. :) 2016-05-07T16:53:12Z ecraven: TheLemonMan: thanks again, fixed now 2016-05-07T16:53:24Z ecraven: it was just an error in displaying the results 2016-05-07T16:53:53Z rszeno: DGASAU. in both cases linking is a os problem of the developer of the package so in the end have same problems 2016-05-07T16:55:13Z DGASAU: rszeno: is any OS going to correct these issues with static libraries? 2016-05-07T16:55:19Z DGASAU: I haven't heard anything so far. 2016-05-07T16:57:39Z rszeno: so having guile without libs doesn't help me as user, so i need to find the libs and i was surprised when i found some broken links, both in the package source and in binary 2016-05-07T16:58:27Z DGASAU: I have no idea how debian developers package it. 2016-05-07T16:58:51Z DGASAU: Guile utilises libtool, we reuse it. 2016-05-07T16:58:55Z superturrican joined #scheme 2016-05-07T16:58:57Z rszeno: why? because the dd ( debian developer ) for unknown reasons decided so 2016-05-07T16:59:21Z DGASAU: Debian developers are notorious for such decisions. 2016-05-07T16:59:37Z DGASAU: See the story of PRNG seedings. 2016-05-07T16:59:59Z rszeno: i didn't ask, so i supose he had some real reasons 2016-05-07T17:00:16Z rszeno: :) 2016-05-07T17:01:08Z superturrican: when I evaluate (define (ints n) (cons-stream n (ints (+ n 1))) and (define (cons-stream a b) (cons a (delay b))) with like (ints 2) I get a stack overflow in guile 2016-05-07T17:01:10Z rszeno: well, the point is static or dynamic have same problems, :) 2016-05-07T17:01:27Z superturrican: but if i substitue cons-stream with the definition it works 2016-05-07T17:01:32Z DGASAU: Not at all. 2016-05-07T17:01:39Z DGASAU: Problems are different. 2016-05-07T17:04:28Z rszeno: from develper point of view? give me a single example ( except acceptance of the package by user or some os developer ) 2016-05-07T17:04:43Z DGASAU: From developer and from user point of view. 2016-05-07T17:07:03Z DGASAU: Again, from user point of view: statically linked applications require turning ASLR off, which is extra step (in modern operating systems) and downgrades security level, dynamically linked application doesn't have this problem. 2016-05-07T17:08:06Z DGASAU: Updating shared library is non-problematic step in contrast to updating static library. 2016-05-07T17:09:18Z rszeno: maybe we are agree, :) 2016-05-07T17:10:18Z rszeno: maybe because ASLR is a hoax in the end but i can't change this, :) 2016-05-07T17:10:51Z DGASAU: ASLR is there because C is rooted out there. 2016-05-07T17:11:43Z rszeno: mmmm, yes and no, doesn't matter in the end, :) 2016-05-07T17:12:47Z rszeno: being safe and how to be safe is pretty complex 2016-05-07T17:12:51Z DGASAU: You can't change the latter, and ASLR at least raises your chances to survive buffer overflow attacks. 2016-05-07T17:13:53Z DGASAU: Or at least convert them from pwning into DoS. :) 2016-05-07T17:16:40Z rszeno: are a lot of problems with string and in general with memory and alloc/free so depend a lot of what the attacker know in the end 2016-05-07T17:17:32Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-07T17:17:37Z DGASAU: Yes. 2016-05-07T17:18:06Z rszeno: what we today know about our bugs is just a small part, :) 2016-05-07T17:19:29Z DGASAU: If you know ahead memory layout and what is stored where, you can initiate communication so that it triggers code and lets you read or write outside of your data in a controllable manner. 2016-05-07T17:19:38Z DGASAU: "Controllable" is the whole point here. 2016-05-07T17:20:24Z DGASAU: If it isn't controllable, the net result will be data corruption or just 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I made one of those! 2016-05-08T01:42:52Z JoshS: you did? 2016-05-08T01:43:10Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-08T01:43:10Z dTal: y 2016-05-08T01:43:17Z groovy2shoes: https://github.com/baguette/lemma 2016-05-08T01:43:31Z JoshS: That's a lisp right? 2016-05-08T01:43:40Z groovy2shoes: yep 2016-05-08T01:43:44Z JoshS: give us the description of what it's like 2016-05-08T01:43:50Z groovy2shoes: with completely seamless Lua integration 2016-05-08T01:43:53Z NhanH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:44:13Z groovy2shoes: toward my last few months of working on it, I started taking some more inspiration from Clojure, but I regret it now 2016-05-08T01:44:19Z stephe_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:44:26Z JoshS: clojure is a bad fit 2016-05-08T01:44:37Z groovy2shoes: if I ever decide to work on it again, I'll revert back to parens for formal parameters rather than square brackets 2016-05-08T01:44:38Z JoshS: since it's entirely hobbled for the sake of threads 2016-05-08T01:44:42Z JoshS: and lua doesn't have threads 2016-05-08T01:44:45Z ELLIOTTCABLE quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:44:52Z defanor quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:44:57Z groovy2shoes: ah, yeah... lemma doesn't try to be immutable 2016-05-08T01:45:04Z JoshS: good! 2016-05-08T01:45:17Z groovy2shoes: it actually did start off that way, but I quickly realized that it was pointless in the absense of threads 2016-05-08T01:45:17Z JoshS: I don't mind [] 2016-05-08T01:45:30Z NhanH joined #scheme 2016-05-08T01:45:49Z groovy2shoes: took me longer to realize that laziness is hard to reason about in the absence of "purity", though 2016-05-08T01:45:50Z JoshS: for my own logging I print expressions with japanese braces so that I won't confuse them with parens or braces from code 2016-05-08T01:46:06Z tmtwd joined #scheme 2016-05-08T01:46:27Z groovy2shoes: I sort of fused Lua's iterators with streams to create what I call "iters" 2016-05-08T01:46:29Z JoshS: 「This is in Japanese quotes」 2016-05-08T01:46:52Z groovy2shoes: basically Lua iterators wrapped up to support the sequence API 2016-05-08T01:47:09Z groovy2shoes: heheh nice 2016-05-08T01:47:41Z stephe_ joined #scheme 2016-05-08T01:48:26Z JoshS: My idea is to recast the entire Lua grammar as an operator precedence grammar 2016-05-08T01:48:39Z JoshS: so that you can match on all lua code 2016-05-08T01:48:44Z JoshS: and can add new operators 2016-05-08T01:48:47Z JoshS: and new statements 2016-05-08T01:49:17Z groovy2shoes: for example, in Lemma, if you want to, say, iterate over a file and print every line to stdout, you might write it like this: (for-each print (iter (lua.io.lines "some-file.txt"))) 2016-05-08T01:49:25Z JoshS: Since it doesn't fit perfectly I have to make the grammar less restrictive than real lua and re-add the restrictions with a Pratt grammar 2016-05-08T01:49:33Z ELLIOTTCABLE joined #scheme 2016-05-08T01:49:56Z JoshS: I really regret the Pratt part 2016-05-08T01:50:11Z JoshS: I makes it all complex again 2016-05-08T01:50:23Z JoshS: It really wants a different grammar than lua to work well 2016-05-08T01:51:00Z JoshS: Maybe I should get rid of the pratt part and let the parser allow nonsense 2016-05-08T01:51:21Z defanor joined #scheme 2016-05-08T01:51:31Z groovy2shoes: some neat things compared to your typical Lisp dialect: seamless support for multiple-value returns that work just as they do in Lua; something I call "anywhere-splicing" (after "unquote-splicing"), so what would be (apply f xs) in Scheme would be (f @xs) in Lemma 2016-05-08T01:51:39Z JoshS: no.. then it doesn't know WHAT KIND (for instance) of comma a comma is 2016-05-08T01:51:41Z jim quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:52:01Z JoshS: groovy2shoes, that sounds like a better lisp 2016-05-08T01:52:26Z JoshS: why not make it a Lisp/1 instead of a Lisp/2 2016-05-08T01:52:33Z choas_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:52:40Z JoshS: or is it 2016-05-08T01:52:49Z JoshS: I think I missread that 2016-05-08T01:53:07Z JoshS: Yeah 2016-05-08T01:53:09Z JoshS: I like that 2016-05-08T01:53:20Z JoshS: anywhere splicing is good 2016-05-08T01:53:25Z choas joined #scheme 2016-05-08T01:53:27Z groovy2shoes: the `@` reader macro expands into the `splice` function, which takes any value that implements the sequence API and returns all the elements of that sequence as a multiple-value return 2016-05-08T01:53:30Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:53:50Z JoshS: The way scheme does multiple return is unusable in racket anyway 2016-05-08T01:54:13Z JoshS: the standard lets the implementation choose whether mismatching the number is an error or not 2016-05-08T01:54:18Z JoshS: and in Racket it's an error 2016-05-08T01:54:28Z groovy2shoes: you can actually implement `flatten` like: (map splice '((1 2 3) (4 5) (6 7 8 9))) => (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) 2016-05-08T01:54:56Z groovy2shoes: multiple values in Scheme are such a pain in the ass, and no one really uses them because of it 2016-05-08T01:55:05Z JoshS: I take it that cons cells are just tables like { car, cdr } 2016-05-08T01:55:24Z JoshS: Scheme pisses me off with arrays that can't expand themselves 2016-05-08T01:55:47Z groovy2shoes: https://github.com/baguette/lemma/blob/master/class/List.lua 2016-05-08T01:55:58Z JoshS: I asked someone working on the next standard about that and he says it's for "efficiency" and you can roll your own... 2016-05-08T01:56:04Z JoshS: NEVER make people roll their own 2016-05-08T01:56:36Z JoshS: How can you expect program to integrate with each other when they have to roll their own god damn primitive types? 2016-05-08T01:56:40Z groovy2shoes: that's why my new Lisp (working title: Lisp/NC) is going to be defined in layers, each one more featureful than the last 2016-05-08T01:57:07Z JoshS: it's stupid 2016-05-08T01:57:13Z JoshS: even java lets arrays expand 2016-05-08T01:57:21Z JoshS: That's not efficient 2016-05-08T01:57:32Z JoshS: that's efficient if you were targetting 6502s 2016-05-08T01:57:42Z JoshS: we're not targetting ancient processors 2016-05-08T01:57:43Z groovy2shoes: it'll have that tiny, pure, elegant core that everyone loves about Scheme, but then with actually useful shit on top for people who want to write real programs instead of waxing philosophical about programming languages 2016-05-08T01:58:04Z JoshS: Hint the core of Scheme isn't that elegant, it's just nice that it's small 2016-05-08T01:58:12Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-05-08T01:58:18Z groovy2shoes: well, Lisp/NC's core will be pretty damn elegant :p 2016-05-08T01:58:25Z JoshS: well that's good 2016-05-08T01:58:42Z JoshS: I'm bitter about the decisions that I disagree with 2016-05-08T01:59:00Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-08T01:59:00Z JoshS: arrays that can't expand, eval that doesn't take an environment 2016-05-08T01:59:19Z JoshS: lack of the ability to get the current environment 2016-05-08T01:59:48Z JoshS: And I see that different schemes have different macro systems... and the one I'm used to isn't so great 2016-05-08T02:00:26Z groovy2shoes: it goes: basis language (roughly R7RS/level-0 EuLisp/Lua-sized); canonical language (roughly R6RS/Common Lisp/level-1 EuLisp sized); application language (roughly Python/Racket-sized); extension language (roughly whatever size the implementor feels like implementing, because it's just the name for the full language + implementation-defined extensions heheh) 2016-05-08T02:00:27Z aries_liuxueyang joined #scheme 2016-05-08T02:00:55Z groovy2shoes: eval takes an environment in Scheme 2016-05-08T02:00:56Z JoshS: that's huge 2016-05-08T02:00:57Z groovy2shoes: always has 2016-05-08T02:01:08Z JoshS: Not a USEFUL environment 2016-05-08T02:01:21Z JoshS: you can't quote and pass the current environment 2016-05-08T02:01:34Z JoshS: and then unquote usefully 2016-05-08T02:01:46Z JoshS: They deliberately hobbled it 2016-05-08T02:01:53Z groovy2shoes: I'm thinking that *most* implementations will probably stray towards the canonical language, with a couple that implement the applications language, and a bunch of side-projects/toys/homework assignments that implement just the basis 2016-05-08T02:02:00Z JoshS: Because otherwise you can't static compiler 2016-05-08T02:02:03Z JoshS: *compile 2016-05-08T02:02:19Z JoshS: if you can save the current environment then you can change definitions in it 2016-05-08T02:02:38Z JoshS: That makes ancient compiler technologies choke 2016-05-08T02:03:15Z JoshS: Ancient compiler technologies are ones that we shouldn't be forced to accommodate 2016-05-08T02:03:18Z groscoe_ joined #scheme 2016-05-08T02:03:30Z groovy2shoes: I'm also thinking of making it *super* easy for implementors to bolt-on the higher-level languages as well... like, offer a public-domain implementation of most of the canonical language and all of the applications language, so that if you implement just the basis + a couple things from the canonical language, you can just drop in the booster pack and get the whole shebang (though that's not a requirement for conformance by any means) 2016-05-08T02:03:38Z JoshS: Do you follow what I'm talking about? 2016-05-08T02:03:45Z groovy2shoes: yes 2016-05-08T02:04:03Z JoshS: Your project sounds many years huge 2016-05-08T02:04:06Z chishiki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-08T02:04:11Z JoshS: it sounds man years huge 2016-05-08T02:04:21Z JoshS: you want to make something even bigger than Common Lisp 2016-05-08T02:04:23Z groovy2shoes: the way I'm thinking it'll work in Lisp/NC is that whatever environment you pass gets passed by value to eval, not by reference, so that you can't go around changing the environment of the current thread 2016-05-08T02:04:25Z JoshS: and Common Lisp is huge 2016-05-08T02:04:37Z groovy2shoes: Common Lisp really isn't that huge 2016-05-08T02:04:41Z Shadox joined #scheme 2016-05-08T02:05:08Z jimm joined #scheme 2016-05-08T02:05:16Z JoshS: I would let them change the current environment unless they request protecting it 2016-05-08T02:05:17Z groovy2shoes: I want something that ranges from really simple and elegant like Scheme and Lua all the way to "useful for real world shit out of the box" like Python 2016-05-08T02:05:19Z JoshS: brb phone 2016-05-08T02:05:28Z groscoe__ joined #scheme 2016-05-08T02:08:43Z vydd quit 2016-05-08T02:09:07Z qu1j0t3: or super elegant AND real world ready like JS 2016-05-08T02:09:11Z juanfra quit (Quit: juanfra) 2016-05-08T02:09:28Z groovy2shoes: lol qu1j0t3 2016-05-08T02:09:29Z qu1j0t3 apologises. Cat on keyboard. 2016-05-08T02:09:39Z groovy2shoes: lololol 2016-05-08T02:10:12Z Menche: chicken converts scheme code to C 2016-05-08T02:10:29Z Menche: is C real world 2016-05-08T02:10:40Z groovy2shoes: I'm definitely open to input... I've got a huge list of things that are going in... haven't completely finalized which modules are going into which layer yet, but suggestions and requests are welcome 2016-05-08T02:10:50Z groovy2shoes: Menche, unfortunately, yes 2016-05-08T02:11:15Z groovy2shoes: to be clear, I'm not trying to say you can't write real-world code in "Scheme" 2016-05-08T02:11:36Z groovy2shoes: thing is, you write real world code in Chicken, or in Gambit, or in Racket, etc., not in Scheme per se 2016-05-08T02:12:17Z groovy2shoes: which means if you're doing anything non-trivial, your end users had better be prepared to install whichever Scheme implementation you happened to choose when they want to build your program 2016-05-08T02:12:56Z Menche: well if you restrict yourself to standard scheme 2016-05-08T02:13:02Z groovy2shoes: contrast that with, say, Common Lisp, where boatloads of useful applications and libraries will run out-of-the-box on any Common Lisp implementation (up to a certain limit, that I hope to smash through with Lisp/NC :p ) 2016-05-08T02:13:23Z Menche: R7RS Large aims to fix this 2016-05-08T02:13:34Z groovy2shoes: for example, the canonical language will have a standard FFI 2016-05-08T02:14:18Z groovy2shoes: I'm also thinking of "supplements" that are not part of the main standard, but are recommendations for things like GUI toolkits and stuff (like CLIM for example) 2016-05-08T02:14:43Z Menche: standard function for executing external programs and connecting their inputs/outputs to ports would be very useful too 2016-05-08T02:14:57Z groovy2shoes: excellent idea :) 2016-05-08T02:15:20Z groovy2shoes: if you feel comfortable with it, you can PM me your details and I can credit you for that in the definition 2016-05-08T02:15:46Z groovy2shoes: and if you have any ideas for the interface and particulars, I'm all ears :) 2016-05-08T02:16:16Z Menche: idk 2016-05-08T02:16:42Z Menche: I've just found myself wishing that I could, say, execute netcat and interact via ports with it's stdin and stdout 2016-05-08T02:17:00Z groovy2shoes: I've been in similar situations before 2016-05-08T02:17:07Z groovy2shoes: wishing the same thing 2016-05-08T02:19:58Z JoshS: back 2016-05-08T02:20:07Z JoshS: back 2016-05-08T02:20:24Z JoshS: What I'd like to see is more systems like the smalltalk environment 2016-05-08T02:20:32Z Menche: ? 2016-05-08T02:20:41Z JoshS: full, totally integrated gui code 2016-05-08T02:20:45Z JoshS: inspectors for data 2016-05-08T02:20:50Z JoshS: browsers for code 2016-05-08T02:21:06Z JoshS: Not bloated portable code through c libraries 2016-05-08T02:21:16Z JoshS: but native to the language 2016-05-08T02:21:31Z JoshS: live coding 2016-05-08T02:21:34Z JoshS: live debugging 2016-05-08T02:21:53Z JoshS: change code at any time, even in a debug cycle 2016-05-08T02:21:53Z Menche wouldn't want GUI code in the standard library, but it would be nice to be able to make such libraries 2016-05-08T02:22:18Z JoshS: The development environment IS the running environment 2016-05-08T02:22:25Z JoshS: IS the application environment 2016-05-08T02:22:43Z JoshS: For God's sake, we've been regressing since the late 70's 2016-05-08T02:22:43Z Menche: how would you make a GUI library in straight standard scheme? no FFI, no interaction with C programs except for stdin/stdout/stderr 2016-05-08T02:22:51Z JoshS: when they had all that at Xerox Park 2016-05-08T02:22:59Z JoshS: inside a language simple enough for children 2016-05-08T02:23:09Z JoshS: And better designed than what came after 2016-05-08T02:23:42Z JoshS: Menche, he's designing his own standard 2016-05-08T02:23:47Z JoshS: it can include what he likes 2016-05-08T02:23:52Z JoshS: even if that's a canvas 2016-05-08T02:23:57Z JoshS: and fonts 2016-05-08T02:24:01Z JoshS: and io 2016-05-08T02:24:39Z JoshS: and sound and networking and whatever 2016-05-08T02:25:06Z groovy2shoes: I absolutely hate the Smalltalk environment, and I say good riddance to the 70s. 2016-05-08T02:25:12Z JoshS: lol 2016-05-08T02:25:21Z JoshS: well then you're not my man on this >.> 2016-05-08T02:25:29Z Menche wasn't born in the 70s, so 2016-05-08T02:25:35Z JoshS: What I hate about smalltalk is: 2016-05-08T02:25:56Z groovy2shoes: like I said, the GUI likely won't be part of the main standard, but will probably be a "supplemental recommendation" 2016-05-08T02:26:01Z JoshS: 1) saving the whole running environment in a live image allowed programmers to save CODE that way. Inseperable from running 2016-05-08T02:26:16Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T02:26:45Z groovy2shoes: something akin to CLIM, where there's a spec, but no one is required to implement the spec, but if they want a GUI and they like what they see in the spec, they can implement that, and then code is portable across any implementation that conforms to that spec 2016-05-08T02:27:02Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, yup, and that's dumb 2016-05-08T02:27:04Z JoshS: 2) the gui is either builder based or some horrible overwrot MVC thing 2016-05-08T02:27:13Z groovy2shoes: yup, and that's dumb 2016-05-08T02:27:16Z JoshS: - metaprogramming is better for guis 2016-05-08T02:27:25Z JoshS: html xml for instance 2016-05-08T02:27:29Z Menche: a standard core with optional extensions? 2016-05-08T02:27:37Z JoshS: I like live but I want a meta-description 2016-05-08T02:27:38Z Menche: like the scheme standards and srfis? 2016-05-08T02:28:04Z groovy2shoes: Menche, it's layered into differently-sized languages: basis, canonical, and application languages 2016-05-08T02:28:09Z chishiki joined #scheme 2016-05-08T02:28:18Z Menche: ah 2016-05-08T02:28:24Z JoshS: groovy2shoes, but what about the rest of it 2016-05-08T02:28:41Z groovy2shoes: basis is tiny like Scheme or Lua, canonical language is roughly R6RS or Common Lisp sized, application language is big, batteries-included size like Python 2016-05-08T02:28:43Z JoshS: there is gold and roses growing in that manure 2016-05-08T02:29:28Z groovy2shoes: but then I'm thinking of "supplements" for things like GUI interface, tooling, etc. that aren't part of the main standard but are recommended for maximum portability/interoperability 2016-05-08T02:29:57Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, rest of what? 2016-05-08T02:30:14Z JoshS: What I'd like to see is more systems like the smalltalk environment 2016-05-08T02:30:15Z JoshS: ? 2016-05-08T02:30:15Z JoshS: full, totally integrated gui code 2016-05-08T02:30:15Z JoshS: inspectors for data 2016-05-08T02:30:15Z JoshS: browsers for code 2016-05-08T02:30:15Z JoshS: Not bloated portable code through c libraries 2016-05-08T02:30:19Z JoshS: but native to the language 2016-05-08T02:30:22Z JoshS: live coding 2016-05-08T02:30:24Z JoshS: live debugging 2016-05-08T02:30:26Z JoshS: change code at any time, even in a debug cycle 2016-05-08T02:30:28Z JoshS: * Menche wouldn't want GUI code in the standard library, but it would be nice to be able to make such libraries 2016-05-08T02:30:30Z JoshS: The development environment IS the running environment 2016-05-08T02:30:32Z JoshS: IS the application environment 2016-05-08T02:30:35Z JoshS: ^^^^ 2016-05-08T02:30:40Z Menche does have scrollback 2016-05-08T02:30:51Z JoshS: Ask a dumb question, get a dumb answer 2016-05-08T02:30:52Z groovy2shoes: I don't want the running environment to be my development environment 2016-05-08T02:31:01Z groovy2shoes: and I don't want to ship applications that are a development environment 2016-05-08T02:31:11Z groovy2shoes: and I want programmers to have a choice of development environment 2016-05-08T02:31:18Z groovy2shoes: and choice of GUI library 2016-05-08T02:31:22Z JoshS: meh. Those can be OPTIONS 2016-05-08T02:31:25Z groovy2shoes: choice of tooling 2016-05-08T02:31:49Z JoshS: It should be 1 line of code to throw up a window with an editor in it 2016-05-08T02:31:53Z JoshS: max 2016-05-08T02:32:02Z JoshS: everything we do is in guis 2016-05-08T02:32:04Z groovy2shoes: every application I've ever used that was written in Smalltalk and wasn't a web app was an absolutely shitty experience 2016-05-08T02:32:09Z JoshS: and our languages for them suck 2016-05-08T02:32:15Z JoshS: our libraries for them suck 2016-05-08T02:32:25Z groovy2shoes: and all the Smalltalk environments I've used have been shitty, uncomfortable, and incomplete-feeling... like they're half-assed 2016-05-08T02:32:32Z JoshS: most are 2016-05-08T02:32:34Z groovy2shoes: and I always wonder how anyone can spend much time in them 2016-05-08T02:32:40Z groovy2shoes: same thing with Oberon, tbh 2016-05-08T02:33:03Z groovy2shoes: check out Rebol or Red 2016-05-08T02:33:10Z JoshS: groovy2shoes, have you tried PROGRAMMING in them? 2016-05-08T02:33:11Z groovy2shoes: GUI programming in those is really nice 2016-05-08T02:33:20Z JoshS: that's where you see the elegance 2016-05-08T02:33:27Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, yes, I have, and it felt like I had a digital wedgie the whole time 2016-05-08T02:33:48Z JoshS: everything that's hidden in the other libraries is out in the open 2016-05-08T02:33:58Z JoshS: you can trace everything 2016-05-08T02:34:01Z groovy2shoes: Squeak especially with its Playskool thing going on 2016-05-08T02:34:14Z JoshS: squeak is academic drool 2016-05-08T02:34:18Z JoshS: unfinished 2016-05-08T02:34:20Z JoshS: unfinishable 2016-05-08T02:34:33Z chishiki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-08T02:34:37Z groovy2shoes: Smalltalk in general is academic drool 2016-05-08T02:34:48Z JoshS: so is scheme 2016-05-08T02:34:50Z JoshS: be nice 2016-05-08T02:34:52Z groovy2shoes: I agree 2016-05-08T02:34:59Z groovy2shoes: that's why I'm making Lisp/NC :p 2016-05-08T02:35:15Z JoshS: Racket is a more modern Squeek 2016-05-08T02:35:20Z JoshS: *squeak 2016-05-08T02:35:24Z groovy2shoes: not really 2016-05-08T02:35:29Z JoshS: It's academic 2016-05-08T02:35:38Z JoshS: it's not really meant for production anything 2016-05-08T02:35:44Z groovy2shoes: and that's where the similarities end, really 2016-05-08T02:35:48Z JoshS: it never will be 2016-05-08T02:35:51Z Menche: racket is scheme with all sorts of batteries included 2016-05-08T02:36:16Z JoshS: squeak is probably getting better 2016-05-08T02:36:23Z JoshS: and there are lots of forks 2016-05-08T02:36:26Z groovy2shoes: I'd actually argue that Racket is more production-ready than Squeak and the majority of Schemes 2016-05-08T02:36:32Z JoshS: pharo 2016-05-08T02:36:56Z JoshS: uhm a wonderful tiny one with a better gui 2016-05-08T02:37:06Z JoshS: cuis 2016-05-08T02:37:21Z JoshS: tiny is good! 2016-05-08T02:37:37Z groovy2shoes: I prefer CLOS-style OOP to Smalltalk-style OOP anyway 2016-05-08T02:37:46Z JoshS: ^too slow! 2016-05-08T02:38:08Z groovy2shoes: in fact, CLOS was the first time I ever used an object-oriented anything that I actually felt was an improvement over procedural programming 2016-05-08T02:38:13Z JoshS: So slow that I avoid oop it when I program in scheme 2016-05-08T02:38:31Z groovy2shoes: CLOS is the Common Lisp Object System... 2016-05-08T02:38:33Z JoshS: even though I prefer oops 2016-05-08T02:38:39Z JoshS: they're all the same 2016-05-08T02:38:45Z groovy2shoes: ... 2016-05-08T02:39:14Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-08T02:39:15Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2016-05-08T02:39:16Z JoshS: Isn't the oop built into racket similar to CLOS 2016-05-08T02:39:22Z groovy2shoes: no, not at all 2016-05-08T02:39:23Z JoshS: It's slow as f... 2016-05-08T02:39:35Z groovy2shoes: it's more similar to Smalltalk's model, and it's one of my biggest complaints with Racket 2016-05-08T02:40:06Z JoshS: Are you sure you mean their current one, not their old one? 2016-05-08T02:40:50Z JoshS: What is so wrong with smalltalk's model? It's also Ruby. And every ducktyped language 2016-05-08T02:41:08Z groovy2shoes: unless something changed in Racket between 6.3 and 6.4, then I mean the current one 2016-05-08T02:41:11Z groovy2shoes: it's nothing like CLOS 2016-05-08T02:41:14Z JoshS: ok 2016-05-08T02:41:19Z groovy2shoes: it's very much like Smalltalk 2016-05-08T02:41:36Z JoshS: Why don't you like it? 2016-05-08T02:41:51Z groovy2shoes: you get single-dispatch based on the notion of sending messages to objects 2016-05-08T02:41:57Z JoshS: yep 2016-05-08T02:42:03Z nanoz joined #scheme 2016-05-08T02:42:12Z groovy2shoes: in CLOS you get multiple-dispatch based on the notion of calling generic functions 2016-05-08T02:42:20Z groovy2shoes: it's beautiful 2016-05-08T02:42:33Z JoshS: in a dynamic language that would be slow as hell 2016-05-08T02:42:43Z JoshS: And Racket has generics 2016-05-08T02:43:14Z groovy2shoes: the only thing the message-passing model gives you is network-transparency, and that's only if the language implementors actually arsed to implement it that way 2016-05-08T02:43:21Z JoshS: I suppose a smart compiler could precompile... and make it fast in static cases 2016-05-08T02:43:44Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-08T02:43:46Z JoshS: I like the idea that you can save a message for later 2016-05-08T02:43:47Z groovy2shoes: and it's usually pretty slow without some boatload of optimizations 2016-05-08T02:43:55Z JoshS: and send it whereever you want 2016-05-08T02:44:32Z JoshS: Can you do that in CLOS? 2016-05-08T02:44:58Z groovy2shoes: but, hey, you can have network transparency with generic functions to, via the magic of remote procedure call... again, if the implementors arse to implement it that way 2016-05-08T02:45:20Z groovy2shoes: however, I'd actually argue that such network transparency is undesirable 2016-05-08T02:45:42Z JoshS doesn't know the phrase "network transparency" 2016-05-08T02:46:03Z groovy2shoes: until networks are 100% reliable, I think it's best if the programmer is always aware when the network is being utilized 2016-05-08T02:46:11Z JoshS: OH 2016-05-08T02:46:25Z JoshS: I like the idea that you can save a message for later, can you do that in your model? 2016-05-08T02:46:35Z groovy2shoes: I don't know what you mean 2016-05-08T02:47:02Z JoshS: object message: parameter :another parameter is a call 2016-05-08T02:47:13Z JoshS: y = message: parameter :another parameter is a call 2016-05-08T02:47:20Z JoshS: y = message: parameter :another parameter is a save* 2016-05-08T02:47:35Z JoshS: object send: y 2016-05-08T02:47:44Z JoshS: sent later wherever you wanted 2016-05-08T02:48:36Z groovy2shoes: to be clear, it's not my model... iirc, it was Gregor Kiczales's idea primarily 2016-05-08T02:49:57Z groovy2shoes: uhm... 2016-05-08T02:50:06Z groovy2shoes: let me try something real quick... I *think* you can do that 2016-05-08T02:51:12Z JoshS: While you test that, I'm curious what system you use when you're running your favorite lisp 2016-05-08T02:51:20Z JoshS: slime and SBCL for instance? 2016-05-08T02:53:25Z groovy2shoes: not sure I have a favorite at the moment, tbh 2016-05-08T03:02:54Z JoshS: hi? 2016-05-08T03:05:36Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-08T03:05:38Z groovy2shoes: yeah, you can do that 2016-05-08T03:05:46Z JoshS: awesome 2016-05-08T03:06:03Z JoshS: It's hard to even get a method pointer in C++ 2016-05-08T03:06:19Z JoshS: though I suppose "auto" saves you from hell now 2016-05-08T03:06:26Z groovy2shoes: basically, you'd save all or some of the arguments in a list, then when you're ready, call apply with the generic function and the list 2016-05-08T03:06:34Z mach quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-08T03:06:41Z mach joined #scheme 2016-05-08T03:06:43Z groovy2shoes: at least we can all agree C++ is the worst ;) 2016-05-08T03:07:12Z JoshS: It's funny that experienced programmers can disagree on what makes an ideal system 2016-05-08T03:07:21Z JoshS: I was a bit surprised 2016-05-08T03:07:35Z JoshS: I shouldn't have been 2016-05-08T03:07:57Z groovy2shoes: it's like... Whats-his-face Matsumoto sat down to make Ruby and made a better Perl... while Larry Wall sat down to make Perl and made an untyped C++ 2016-05-08T03:08:15Z JoshS: Is larry Wall Python? 2016-05-08T03:08:20Z JoshS: I never used python 2016-05-08T03:08:21Z groovy2shoes: no, he's Perl 2016-05-08T03:08:26Z JoshS: or perl 2016-05-08T03:08:35Z groovy2shoes: Guido van Rossum is the Python guy 2016-05-08T03:08:55Z JoshS: I've used prolog, ruby, scheme, lua, c++, C, smalltalk 2016-05-08T03:09:20Z JoshS: uhm should I add SNOBOL4 2016-05-08T03:09:25Z groovy2shoes: heheh 2016-05-08T03:09:33Z groovy2shoes: I've used about 37 languages, and counting 2016-05-08T03:09:51Z chishiki joined #scheme 2016-05-08T03:09:55Z JoshS: Icon 2016-05-08T03:09:57Z Menche: brainfuck? lolcode? 2016-05-08T03:10:00Z groovy2shoes: going to be adding Mantra to that list as soon as I get my interpreter working 2016-05-08T03:10:12Z JoshS: mathematica a little 2016-05-08T03:10:15Z Menche runs 2016-05-08T03:10:17Z JoshS: maxima a little 2016-05-08T03:10:35Z JoshS: Some proprietary symbolic math system I forget 2016-05-08T03:11:05Z JoshS: I have some love for smalltalk 2016-05-08T03:11:16Z JoshS: and I like some things about prolog a lot 2016-05-08T03:11:25Z groovy2shoes: Prolog is pretty sweet 2016-05-08T03:11:53Z JoshS: I want to forget java 2016-05-08T03:12:04Z JoshS: Yeah I used java and didn't even mention it 2016-05-08T03:12:11Z JoshS: that's how much I dislike Java 2016-05-08T03:12:18Z JoshS: also on the list are BASIC and Forth 2016-05-08T03:12:24Z JoshS: back when BASIC was all caps 2016-05-08T03:12:46Z JoshS: My first basic experience was on a DEC with a teletype 2016-05-08T03:13:00Z JoshS: When I was 9 2016-05-08T03:13:17Z JoshS: Assembly 2016-05-08T03:13:29Z JoshS: for z80, 6502 and x86 2016-05-08T03:13:50Z Menche: my local college's intro to computer science course taught java 2016-05-08T03:13:54Z JoshS: I miss simple assembly languages SO MUCH 2016-05-08T03:13:59Z groovy2shoes: me too 2016-05-08T03:14:11Z groovy2shoes: 6502 assembly was a lot of fun 2016-05-08T03:14:19Z groovy2shoes: ARM actually isn't *too* bad 2016-05-08T03:14:30Z JoshS: at college we had micro computer version of pdp11 2016-05-08T03:14:34Z groovy2shoes: pretty much anything from DEC I enjoyed 2016-05-08T03:14:50Z JoshS: what did they call that? 2016-05-08T03:15:25Z groovy2shoes: wasn't it like MicroPDP-11 or something? 2016-05-08T03:15:30Z JoshS: hmnm 2016-05-08T03:15:37Z groovy2shoes: I was actually reading about that just last week, but I already forgot the name lol 2016-05-08T03:15:42Z JoshS: maybe I should write directly to arm 2016-05-08T03:16:03Z groovy2shoes: MIPS ain't bad, either 2016-05-08T03:16:21Z JoshS: Amd doesn't even publish the assembly for their GPUs 2016-05-08T03:16:24Z groovy2shoes: one of the cool things in ARM is that the instructions actually have conditional bits in them 2016-05-08T03:16:26Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-08T03:16:34Z JoshS: isn't that crazy? 2016-05-08T03:16:37Z groovy2shoes: so you don't need to branch for some tests 2016-05-08T03:16:56Z groovy2shoes: well, with GPUs you're supposed to use shaders now 2016-05-08T03:17:36Z JoshS: brb 2016-05-08T03:17:37Z groovy2shoes: HLSL, GLSL, CUDA, OpenCL, ... 2016-05-08T03:18:44Z JoshS: back 2016-05-08T03:18:48Z groovy2shoes: always liked the 68k better than the x86, architecture-wise 2016-05-08T03:19:00Z groovy2shoes: oh, well 2016-05-08T03:19:56Z JoshS: It's funny how the mac survived changing processors twice 2016-05-08T03:20:23Z JoshS: I remember the PC-junior 2016-05-08T03:21:20Z groovy2shoes: ugh the PowerPC was so lame compared to the 68k 2016-05-08T03:21:50Z groovy2shoes: I want a T-shirt that says "I'd rather be running Alpha" 2016-05-08T03:22:00Z groovy2shoes: with an Intel logo with a cancel sign over it 2016-05-08T03:22:13Z groovy2shoes: even though they ironically own the Alpha IP nowadays 2016-05-08T03:22:26Z groovy2shoes: damn, I miss DEC 2016-05-08T03:22:27Z JoshS: my first computer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6R3uynR9Kk 2016-05-08T03:22:46Z groovy2shoes: my first was an Apple IIe 2016-05-08T03:22:51Z groovy2shoes: green monochrome screen 2016-05-08T03:22:59Z groovy2shoes: two 5.25" floppy drives 2016-05-08T03:23:10Z groovy2shoes: after I got my first PC, my mom made me throw it out :( 2016-05-08T03:23:23Z groovy2shoes: godsdamn, do I regret doing that 2016-05-08T03:23:24Z JoshS: My second one was an atari 800 with 48k and a disk drive 2016-05-08T03:23:33Z JoshS: a friend of mine made me a 128k ram disk 2016-05-08T03:23:41Z groovy2shoes: I had a Timex Sinclair 1000 for a while 2016-05-08T03:23:42Z JoshS: that I used to speed up compiles 2016-05-08T03:23:50Z groovy2shoes: actually still have the BASIC manual for that one 2016-05-08T03:24:09Z JoshS: I used to make fun of those 2016-05-08T03:24:26Z groovy2shoes: oh yeah? with your Trash-80 in hand? :p 2016-05-08T03:24:40Z JoshS: right on 2016-05-08T03:24:55Z JoshS: my third was a commodore 64 2016-05-08T03:24:55Z groovy2shoes: missed out on the C64 2016-05-08T03:24:59Z groovy2shoes: bummer 2016-05-08T03:25:01Z JoshS: and I don't remember my first ibm 2016-05-08T03:25:11Z groovy2shoes: I do, I still have it :D 2016-05-08T03:25:14Z JoshS: I have no memory at all 2016-05-08T03:25:36Z groovy2shoes: it's a Pionex Elite with a 350 Mhz Pentium II 2016-05-08T03:25:39Z JoshS: I remember the various laptops 2016-05-08T03:25:50Z JoshS: my first one had a lead acid battery 2016-05-08T03:25:52Z groovy2shoes: came with Windows 98, 32 MB of RAM, and a 4 GB hard disk 2016-05-08T03:26:00Z JoshS: heavy like a motorcycle battery 2016-05-08T03:26:15Z groovy2shoes: nowadays it runs OpenBSD and has 392 MB of RAM and a 40 GB hard disk 2016-05-08T03:26:26Z groscoe__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-08T03:26:45Z groscoe quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-08T03:26:54Z groscoe_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T03:27:00Z groovy2shoes: "zed80 processor" 2016-05-08T03:27:04Z groovy2shoes: damn australians :p 2016-05-08T03:27:08Z JoshS: oh my step dad had a tandy 100 2016-05-08T03:27:13Z rjnw joined #scheme 2016-05-08T03:27:19Z JoshS: those were sweet 2016-05-08T03:27:48Z JoshS: lcd screen, ran on a 9 volt battery I think 2016-05-08T03:27:56Z groovy2shoes: neat 2016-05-08T03:28:37Z JoshS: my grandfather was the disk duplicator for an atari club 2016-05-08T03:28:38Z groovy2shoes: my first laptop was a Powerbook something-or-other 2016-05-08T03:28:44Z groovy2shoes: I don't have that one anymore, either :( 2016-05-08T03:29:00Z groovy2shoes: ran Mac OS 7 in glorious 8-bit color 2016-05-08T03:29:13Z groovy2shoes: claris works, awww yeahhh 2016-05-08T03:29:35Z JoshS: I've worked on Atari St 2016-05-08T03:29:43Z JoshS: Not Amiga though 2016-05-08T03:29:50Z groovy2shoes: didn't even have a modern NIC, so nowadays I wouldn't even be able to get it online with a wire 2016-05-08T03:30:05Z JoshS: parallel port! 2016-05-08T03:30:17Z groovy2shoes: only way to get anything on and off that thing even when I had it was by doing a floppy-disk-shuffle with some 3.5" disks 2016-05-08T03:31:55Z JoshS: how long do you think it will take you to mock up your scheme? 2016-05-08T03:32:15Z JoshS: What are you going to write it in? 2016-05-08T03:32:17Z groovy2shoes: I actually came across an old PDP-11 microcomputer clone from some Soviet knock-off company a couple weeks ago 2016-05-08T03:32:27Z groovy2shoes: but apparently it wouldn't get past the boot loader 2016-05-08T03:32:34Z JoshS: Red Apple! 2016-05-08T03:32:35Z groovy2shoes: so I decided to hold on to my money 2016-05-08T03:32:48Z JoshS: I don't have money :p 2016-05-08T03:32:50Z groovy2shoes: I'm going to write it in LaTeX initially 2016-05-08T03:32:59Z groovy2shoes: then probably an interpreter in Scheme 2016-05-08T03:33:06Z groovy2shoes: then a self-hosting compiler 2016-05-08T03:33:25Z JoshS: gonna start with chez? 2016-05-08T03:33:29Z groovy2shoes: then I'm going to go commercial with a premium-edition compiler :p 2016-05-08T03:33:55Z groovy2shoes: if that gets any traction, I'm going to quit my job and work on it full time... that's my dream 2016-05-08T03:33:58Z groovy2shoes: I'm a simple man 2016-05-08T03:34:11Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: LaTeX? what about a literate program so you only need to write it once? :) 2016-05-08T03:34:27Z JoshS: I have no irony when I say "I wish you good luck" 2016-05-08T03:34:34Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: if you want to follow up on PDP-11/clones, there is #classiccmp here on Freenode. 2016-05-08T03:34:42Z qu1j0t3 owns a bunch of PDP-11s 2016-05-08T03:37:38Z groovy2shoes: meh, the minicomputer era was before my time, and I don't have the room for them, really :p 2016-05-08T03:37:51Z qu1j0t3: :) 2016-05-08T03:37:51Z groovy2shoes: I only came across it when looking for VAX and Alpha systems 2016-05-08T03:38:00Z qu1j0t3 owns a few of those, too 2016-05-08T03:38:03Z groovy2shoes: but that sounds like a cool channel, thanks for the tip :) 2016-05-08T03:38:11Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: yeah! it's surprisingly active. 2016-05-08T03:38:50Z groovy2shoes: there's SimH was is fucking awesome, but afaik there aren't any good open source emulators for Alpha... I'd like to write one, but I'd like to get my hands on a real system or two for testing purposes 2016-05-08T03:39:13Z groovy2shoes: as well as an amber VT-something terminal just because they're beautiful :D 2016-05-08T03:40:06Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: they are. :) 2016-05-08T03:40:10Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: getting quite hard to find 2016-05-08T03:40:14Z groovy2shoes: qu1j0t3, I'm writing it in LaTeX because it's a definition, not a program or reference manual or anything like that 2016-05-08T03:40:21Z groovy2shoes: but it will be a program eventually 2016-05-08T03:40:25Z groovy2shoes: and JoshS, thanks 2016-05-08T03:40:33Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: gotcha. still, a literate program definition would be interesting... 2016-05-08T03:40:35Z groovy2shoes: I know it's a very ambitious project, but... I want to do it 2016-05-08T03:40:38Z JoshS: :D 2016-05-08T03:40:59Z groovy2shoes: qu1j0t3, I'll consider it :) 2016-05-08T03:41:18Z groovy2shoes: it would be interesting indeed 2016-05-08T03:41:28Z groovy2shoes: definition + reference interpreter in one 2016-05-08T03:41:32Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: not quite the same thing, but it amuses me that Lamport's TLA+ is fully typesettable 2016-05-08T03:50:58Z groovy2shoes: I miss DEC 2016-05-08T03:51:01Z groovy2shoes: fuck Compaq 2016-05-08T03:51:03Z groovy2shoes: fuck HP 2016-05-08T03:51:06Z groovy2shoes: fuck Inte 2016-05-08T03:51:07Z groovy2shoes: l 2016-05-08T03:52:42Z groovy2shoes: qu1j0t3, have you seen this? https://github.com/Swordfish90/cool-retro-term 2016-05-08T03:54:03Z groovy2shoes: says it works on Linux and OS X, but I bet I can get it to work on *BSD, and maybe even Cygwin... 2016-05-08T03:54:19Z groovy2shoes: oh man, if I can get it to work on Cygwin, I can use it at my day job :D 2016-05-08T03:54:50Z groovy2shoes: now all I need to do is find the VT-420 font... 2016-05-08T04:02:11Z scarygelatin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-08T04:06:37Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: I haven't seen this, but I know of the OS X app Cathode 2016-05-08T04:06:54Z groovy2shoes: yeah? well, screw OS X :p 2016-05-08T04:09:30Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-08T04:09:55Z groovy2shoes: hey tax 2016-05-08T04:14:58Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-08T04:19:23Z foof`: = 2016-05-08T04:19:44Z groovy2shoes: ~ 2016-05-08T04:22:17Z groovy2shoes: foof`, I don't mean to bash Chibi, really... it's a pretty solid system, and probably my third most-used Scheme after Racket and Gauche, and one of the first things I tend to install on new machines and such 2016-05-08T04:23:15Z groovy2shoes: I felt that it was dishonest to compare it to TinySCHEME given its memory usage, but I stand corrected... thanks for the tips on the configuration options :) 2016-05-08T04:23:44Z groovy2shoes: I'm going to do some tests, and it might wind up replacing TinySCHEME for me after all 2016-05-08T04:27:01Z groovy2shoes: and I'll probably abondon Tiny7 at that point, too 2016-05-08T04:27:05Z groovy2shoes: abandon, even 2016-05-08T04:32:56Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-08T04:35:17Z Menche joined #scheme 2016-05-08T04:35:54Z nanoz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-08T04:43:21Z pillton joined #scheme 2016-05-08T04:45:15Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-08T04:47:08Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-08T04:55:57Z JoshS: speaking of commercial dev environments that have gone open sourced 2016-05-08T04:56:09Z JoshS: that now applies to Dolphin Smalltalk 2016-05-08T04:56:21Z JoshS: A windows smalltalk that makes stand alone executables 2016-05-08T04:56:50Z groovy2shoes: Smalltalk sux 2016-05-08T04:57:02Z JoshS: I don't know why you're such a curmudgeon 2016-05-08T04:57:23Z JoshS: bellbottoms and fax machines were cool :P 2016-05-08T04:57:30Z groovy2shoes: I don't know why you have shitty opinions :p 2016-05-08T04:58:08Z JoshS: well you said you don't like smalltalk because it couldn't make stand alone executables 2016-05-08T04:58:16Z JoshS: but there are a few that can 2016-05-08T04:58:18Z groovy2shoes: that's not what I said 2016-05-08T04:58:40Z JoshS: you said you don't want your dev environment to be your application environment 2016-05-08T04:58:46Z groovy2shoes: yup 2016-05-08T04:59:02Z JoshS: stand alone executables cut that out 2016-05-08T04:59:02Z groovy2shoes: which doesn't really have anything to do with standalone executables 2016-05-08T04:59:37Z JoshS: And there are smalltalks that get rid of the image problem too 2016-05-08T04:59:39Z groovy2shoes: that's not necessarily the case 2016-05-08T04:59:48Z JoshS: And keep source in files 2016-05-08T05:00:42Z groovy2shoes: it's also not the only reason I don't like Smalltalk 2016-05-08T05:00:57Z groovy2shoes: it was just the most relevant one for that discussion 2016-05-08T05:01:14Z JoshS: should I bother you to tell me others? 2016-05-08T05:01:40Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-08T05:01:58Z groovy2shoes: I don't like its object model 2016-05-08T05:02:17Z JoshS: I understand that it's less powerful than multi-dispatch 2016-05-08T05:02:30Z JoshS: but I feel like simple has advantages too 2016-05-08T05:02:37Z JoshS: and you can work around it 2016-05-08T05:02:43Z groovy2shoes: don't really care for all the named parameters 2016-05-08T05:02:49Z JoshS: Ah 2016-05-08T05:03:06Z JoshS: I love named parameters, though not exactly the smalltalk version 2016-05-08T05:03:11Z groovy2shoes: and "working around it" usually means "using the visitor pattern", which is a nightmare 2016-05-08T05:03:21Z JoshS: no it means testing type 2016-05-08T05:03:33Z groovy2shoes: that's not the same at all 2016-05-08T05:03:46Z JoshS: And emulating dispatch on type 2016-05-08T05:04:21Z groovy2shoes: the major difference is that generic functions are open, whereas a typecase is closed 2016-05-08T05:05:03Z groovy2shoes: e.g., I can add methods to a generic function defined in some other module from a third party without modifying their source 2016-05-08T05:05:04Z JoshS: I don't really follow all this I'm afraid 2016-05-08T05:05:25Z JoshS: open is a problem isn't it 2016-05-08T05:05:45Z JoshS: I hate it when people migrate new methods back to Object 2016-05-08T05:05:51Z groovy2shoes: whereas with a typecase I'd need to have access to that module's source and I'd need to add the case for my new method to their dispatch function 2016-05-08T05:05:54Z JoshS: It's an integration problem 2016-05-08T05:06:28Z JoshS: I'm afraid I hate both closed and open 2016-05-08T05:06:38Z JoshS: for different annoyances 2016-05-08T05:06:42Z groovy2shoes: multimethods basically solve the expression problem, I think... pretty much the only thing that does, as far as I'm aware 2016-05-08T05:07:20Z JoshS: I see, yeah it would save trouble there 2016-05-08T05:08:09Z JoshS: I figure that open is better than closed because its problems can be solved with discipline 2016-05-08T05:08:10Z jimm is now known as jim 2016-05-08T05:08:25Z JoshS: whereas there is no solution in the closed case other than ugly code 2016-05-08T05:08:46Z JoshS: And ugly code isn't the end of the world either 2016-05-08T05:08:48Z groovy2shoes nods 2016-05-08T05:09:11Z JoshS: but yeah multimethods save you from annoyance 2016-05-08T05:09:13Z JoshS: I see that 2016-05-08T05:09:41Z JoshS: I program by myself these days 2016-05-08T05:09:50Z JoshS: so integration problems don't have to bother me 2016-05-08T05:09:56Z groovy2shoes: you lucky bastard 2016-05-08T05:10:08Z JoshS: That's why I have no money :p 2016-05-08T05:10:14Z groovy2shoes: I have to clean up after Vomzi all the time 2016-05-08T05:10:16Z JoshS: My day job isn't programming 2016-05-08T05:10:41Z JoshS: It's a business I run that keeps me on the edge of poverty 2016-05-08T05:10:47Z JoshS: the lower part of the edge 2016-05-08T05:11:13Z JoshS: I should make money on software again some day soon 2016-05-08T05:11:23Z JoshS: So I don't end up on the streets 2016-05-08T05:12:37Z JoshS: My psychiatrist told me "the ADD brain prioritizes by interestinstead of by importance 2016-05-08T05:12:38Z groovy2shoes: you should consider bailing on the Bay 2016-05-08T05:12:45Z JoshS: So I program for fun 2016-05-08T05:13:06Z JoshS: my business would have no customers if I moved 2016-05-08T05:13:34Z groovy2shoes: come to NC where the cost of living is low 2016-05-08T05:13:56Z JoshS: I'm no good at reading code. No good at guessing how long coding will take. Other than that I'm fine. 2016-05-08T05:14:35Z JoshS: Currently I'm writing in Lua. The lack of structure is making this hard. 2016-05-08T05:14:54Z JoshS: Eventually this will be a "throw away implementation" 2016-05-08T05:15:06Z groovy2shoes: I bought a 3 bed 2 bath house 10 minutes from downtown Charlotte for $110K 2016-05-08T05:15:17Z JoshS: nice 2016-05-08T05:15:43Z groovy2shoes: it's even cheaper if you stick to the suburbs 2016-05-08T05:15:51Z pillton left #scheme 2016-05-08T05:16:08Z JoshS: My girl friend probably left me for being a loser :< 2016-05-08T05:17:10Z JoshS: So I had this idea that programming in a dynamic language would be easier with no types to clutter things up 2016-05-08T05:17:19Z JoshS: but with no classes, it's easy to get lost 2016-05-08T05:17:32Z JoshS: Programming continues apace 2016-05-08T05:17:46Z JoshS: but it feels messy 2016-05-08T05:17:56Z groovy2shoes: you can do classes in Lua 2016-05-08T05:18:29Z JoshS: I can but this program is mostly manipulating cons cells 2016-05-08T05:18:37Z JoshS: It's a lisp mess without the lisp 2016-05-08T05:19:17Z JoshS: arrays don't make sense as a data structure for a macro expander 2016-05-08T05:19:27Z JoshS: since you keep expanding in the middle of things 2016-05-08T05:20:03Z JoshS: I imagine that lua programmers would be aghast to see cons cells 2016-05-08T05:21:11Z groovy2shoes: I doubt it 2016-05-08T05:21:23Z groovy2shoes: given that Ierusalimschy covers them in Programming in Lua :p 2016-05-08T05:22:13Z JoshS: what programming is your day job? 2016-05-08T05:22:39Z groovy2shoes: C++ mostly... some C, some Python, a smattering of Perl here and there 2016-05-08T05:22:58Z JoshS: what kind of program? 2016-05-08T05:23:19Z groovy2shoes: toolchain stuff for a compiler 2016-05-08T05:23:35Z groovy2shoes: profiling, static analysis, testing tools 2016-05-08T05:23:38Z JoshS: can I ask what compiler? 2016-05-08T05:23:49Z groovy2shoes: IC Validator 2016-05-08T05:24:11Z JoshS: integrated circuit? 2016-05-08T05:24:38Z JoshS: Does your system do SAT for validation? 2016-05-08T05:25:16Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-08T05:28:40Z groovy2shoes: it does DRC and LVS 2016-05-08T05:28:53Z JoshS: I don't know what those stand for 2016-05-08T05:29:21Z groovy2shoes: design rules checking and layout versus schematic 2016-05-08T05:32:11Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T05:42:00Z groovy2shoes: wellp, I'm off to bed 2016-05-08T05:42:02Z groovy2shoes: g'night! 2016-05-08T05:42:10Z JoshS: sleep well 2016-05-08T05:42:18Z groovy2shoes: thanks 2016-05-08T05:42:29Z JoshS: I'm playing with Dolphin Smalltalk right now... 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Anyway, guns don't kill people, bullets do. 2016-05-08T13:47:20Z mejja: rudybot: When we launched, the yogurt aisle was basically a no man's land. Our 'yogurt for men' approach aimed to disrupt a category that was conservative, dormant and dominated by sameness. 2016-05-08T13:47:26Z rudybot: mejja: Odd; I always thought that worked in reverse. As you age, you accept the universal sameness and pointlessness of it all. 2016-05-08T13:53:17Z mejja: rudybot: Pointless Haskell is library for point-free programming with recursion patterns defined as hylomorphisms. 2016-05-08T13:53:20Z rudybot: mejja: hylomorphisms they call it, IIRC 2016-05-08T13:54:43Z mejja: rudybot: Hylomorphism (or hylemorphism) is a philosophical theory developed by Aristotle, which conceives being (ousia) as a compound of matter and form. 2016-05-08T13:54:45Z rudybot: mejja: Simply put, the director conceives scenes, the art director creates them and the cinematographer captures them. 2016-05-08T14:02:36Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T14:05:30Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-08T14:07:06Z grettke quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-08T14:08:41Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-08T14:11:32Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T14:17:17Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-08T14:22:46Z wilfredh joined #scheme 2016-05-08T14:24:27Z wilfredh: hi folks 2016-05-08T14:24:46Z wilfredh: should I get a stack overflow in scheme in a non-tail recursive function? 2016-05-08T14:24:50Z wilfredh: http://paste.lisp.org/display/315579 2016-05-08T14:25:14Z wilfredh: here my my-filter implementation is not tail-recursive, but it doesn't seem to crash when I expected 2016-05-08T14:30:15Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-08T14:30:55Z renopt: wilfredh: line 7 is tail recursive 2016-05-08T14:31:11Z renopt: so when (pred ...) is false, it ends up doing a tail call 2016-05-08T14:31:34Z wilfredh: oh, I see 2016-05-08T14:31:46Z wilfredh: so I only consume stack space when (pred ...) is #t 2016-05-08T14:40:33Z wilfredh: hm, I still can't get a stack overflow: http://paste.lisp.org/display/315580 2016-05-08T14:41:29Z pjb joined #scheme 2016-05-08T14:41:48Z pllx joined #scheme 2016-05-08T14:43:12Z renopt: most scheme implementations make their call stack limits pretty large eh 2016-05-08T14:43:27Z renopt: if it makes you feel better that crashes in guile for me :P 2016-05-08T14:45:14Z wilfredh: haha. 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We use #f and '() nowadays. 2016-05-08T20:36:27Z lalex: so, 'nil is just like 'foobar 2016-05-08T20:36:32Z groovy2shoes: lalex, in R7RS, `nil` is just a symbol like any other symbol and doesn't have any special meaning 2016-05-08T20:36:38Z lalex: ok 2016-05-08T20:36:49Z arya123 joined #scheme 2016-05-08T20:37:06Z lalex: then I got it, the intent is just to draw a line against other lisp dialects 2016-05-08T20:37:24Z groovy2shoes: you can `(define nil '())` if that makes you feel better, but be aware that the empty list is not considered "false" in boolean context... only #f or #false is considered false in boolean context 2016-05-08T20:38:00Z arya123: hello i am new to scheme.i want last half of a list, but for now i have first half,anyone can help me with this : (define (first-half lst) (take lst (quotient (length lst) 2))) 2016-05-08T20:38:25Z groovy2shoes: for second half, just change take to drop 2016-05-08T20:39:00Z arya123: what should i write could not understand sorry 2016-05-08T20:39:18Z groovy2shoes: same exact thing you have, but change `take` to `drop` 2016-05-08T20:39:28Z groovy2shoes: that will give you the second half of the list 2016-05-08T20:40:03Z arya123: okey thank you very much :) 2016-05-08T20:40:27Z groovy2shoes: (define (second-half lst) (drop lst (quotient (length lst) 2))) 2016-05-08T20:40:42Z lalex: groovy2shoes: nah, I just wondered that there is no equivalence of undef (from Perl) or None (form Python) in Scheme. 2016-05-08T20:41:01Z groovy2shoes: lalex, there actually is, but it's not standard 2016-05-08T20:41:15Z lucasem: lalex: the empty use is often used for those kinds of cases 2016-05-08T20:41:17Z groovy2shoes: you'll sometimes see things like (define void (if #f #f)) 2016-05-08T20:42:00Z groovy2shoes: according to the standard, the value of (if #f #f) is undefined (there is no alternative case, yet the condition is false) 2016-05-08T20:42:18Z groovy2shoes: but it's up to the implementation to define what "undefined" means 2016-05-08T20:43:50Z lalex: weird :) 2016-05-08T20:43:55Z groovy2shoes: I agree :) 2016-05-08T20:44:37Z groovy2shoes: I think the authors of the standard didn't think it would be useful to be able to manually specify undefined values, but the existence of such code as that `void` definition shows otherwise 2016-05-08T20:44:59Z groovy2shoes: something like #undef or #undefined would be welcome additions to the standard, imo 2016-05-08T20:48:06Z wasamasa: `racket` aborts on that and tells me there's no else case 2016-05-08T20:48:10Z wasamasa: very clever 2016-05-08T20:50:00Z lalex: but racket has void _and_ undefined 2016-05-08T20:50:03Z lalex: ( https://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/void_undefined.html ) 2016-05-08T20:50:18Z wasamasa: in r5rs mode it does as expected 2016-05-08T20:55:52Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-08T21:00:36Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T21:07:10Z arya123 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-08T21:09:00Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-08T21:10:12Z juanfra joined #scheme 2016-05-08T21:12:42Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T21:17:42Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-08T21:20:24Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2016-05-08T21:22:10Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2016-05-08T21:27:09Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-08T21:27:33Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-08T21:28:27Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T21:36:26Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-08T21:40:43Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2016-05-08T23:06:13Z JoshS: I consider it a mistake in scheme's definition 2016-05-08T23:06:19Z galex-713: ok 2016-05-08T23:06:21Z JoshS: They make local definitions 2016-05-08T23:06:24Z qu1j0t3 avoids non top level defines 2016-05-08T23:06:27Z galex-713: Ok 2016-05-08T23:06:27Z JoshS: they're no different than let 2016-05-08T23:06:40Z galex-713: they’re like a let inside a let you mean? 2016-05-08T23:06:50Z JoshS: yep 2016-05-08T23:07:05Z JoshS: Macros would be more powerful if they made top level defines 2016-05-08T23:07:10Z galex-713: When I said “doesn’t work” I meant “syntax error” 2016-05-08T23:07:14Z JoshS: oh 2016-05-08T23:07:15Z galex-713: Oh, and I used define to define a function 2016-05-08T23:07:26Z JoshS: what scheme are you using? 2016-05-08T23:07:50Z galex-713: Err, guile, so it’s r5rs with a bit of r6rs and another standard I forgot the name with I in it 2016-05-08T23:08:01Z JoshS: I've only used Racket 2016-05-08T23:08:38Z galex-713: Actually I’m trying to learn scheme properly with Guile reference, and I’m trying to understand closures and scheme’s scoping but not sure to understand properly 2016-05-08T23:09:57Z galex-713: Is it normal if there’s a syntax error while doing (let ((x 0)) (define (f) x) (f))? 2016-05-08T23:10:20Z galex-713: oh wait not this one 2016-05-08T23:11:06Z JoshS: shouldn't it be (define f (x) ... 2016-05-08T23:11:08Z galex-713: Wtf, without the (f) it doesn’t work, and with it it does 2016-05-08T23:11:14Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-08T23:11:33Z galex-713: JoshS: wouldn’t (define f […]) define a variable instead of a function? 2016-05-08T23:12:58Z JoshS: It's been so long since I schemed 2016-05-08T23:13:22Z JoshS: yeah what you have is a function with no parameters 2016-05-08T23:13:35Z galex-713: yeah 2016-05-08T23:13:48Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, it should work, but within bodies all defines need to be at the very top of the body 2016-05-08T23:14:16Z galex-713: ok… 2016-05-08T23:14:50Z groovy2shoes: and it's not correct to say that define does something different within a body than at top-level 2016-05-08T23:15:12Z groovy2shoes: it establishes a binding in the current scope, no matter where you use it 2016-05-08T23:15:25Z galex-713: ok 2016-05-08T23:15:34Z galex-713: that seems clear 2016-05-08T23:16:22Z githogori quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T23:17:17Z JoshS: My version would be more useful 2016-05-08T23:17:34Z JoshS: there's already a way to make a binding at the current scope 2016-05-08T23:17:37Z JoshS: no one needs two 2016-05-08T23:18:29Z groovy2shoes: there are certainly times when a local define is more convenient or more readable than the equivalent let{,*,rec,rec*}, imo 2016-05-08T23:18:50Z groovy2shoes: let actually doesn't make a binding at the current scope, it introduces a new scope which has bindings in it 2016-05-08T23:19:10Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T23:19:15Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: let{,rec}{,*} 2016-05-08T23:19:33Z groovy2shoes: whatever floats your boat 2016-05-08T23:19:40Z galex-713: simplier 2016-05-08T23:19:51Z galex-713: okkk 2016-05-08T23:20:02Z galex-713: and what does mean “actual” 2016-05-08T23:20:12Z galex-713: like with a let inside a define… 2016-05-08T23:20:59Z groovy2shoes: hm? 2016-05-08T23:21:37Z galex-713: does “actual” would mean when the define where there is a let is evaluated or when the function defined by the define is evaluated? 2016-05-08T23:22:32Z JoshS: groovy2shoes, what would you say to adding a word to your scheme that always defines at the top level? 2016-05-08T23:22:51Z JoshS: Or macros that can insert at the top level no matter where they are used 2016-05-08T23:23:44Z JoshS is working on a macro system that can do that 2016-05-08T23:26:21Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, I think that'd be useful 2016-05-08T23:27:08Z groovy2shoes: I wonder if first-class scopes are a good a idea... 2016-05-08T23:27:21Z JoshS: mine does it squinky 2016-05-08T23:27:35Z JoshS: like the c preprocessor 2016-05-08T23:27:47Z JoshS: there are places where it matters if something is at the beginning of a line 2016-05-08T23:27:55Z JoshS: @section 'name' 2016-05-08T23:28:14Z JoshS: defines a place where macros can insert code 2016-05-08T23:28:30Z groovy2shoes: something like: (define foo (current-scope)) (let (...) (define-in foo bar 42)) (println bar) => 42 2016-05-08T23:28:32Z JoshS: macros have a head, body and section bodies 2016-05-08T23:28:44Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, I don't understand 2016-05-08T23:29:50Z oleo joined #scheme 2016-05-08T23:30:34Z groovy2shoes: I guess first-class scopes amount to mutable first-class environments 2016-05-08T23:30:36Z JoshS: of course a section can be inside of something 2016-05-08T23:30:49Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: I’m just trying to understand scoping within scheme 2016-05-08T23:31:15Z JoshS: in lua I use them for turning function definitions into predefined locals at the top of the file 2016-05-08T23:31:17Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, it's just good ol' lexical scope 2016-05-08T23:31:25Z JoshS: and exporting them in a module at the bottom of the file 2016-05-08T23:31:29Z groovy2shoes: I don't know where you're seeing this "actual" business 2016-05-08T23:31:48Z JoshS: and defining a macro at the bottom of the file that can be used to import all of those into locals in other files 2016-05-08T23:32:00Z galex-713: ol' ? 2016-05-08T23:32:07Z qu1j0t3: galex-713: The book "Programming in Scheme" Abelson & Eisenberg has a really good walkthrough of how environments work. 2016-05-08T23:32:34Z galex-713: oh ok cool, do you have a link? 2016-05-08T23:34:00Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, ol' = old 2016-05-08T23:34:43Z groovy2shoes: good old as in "same as it ever was" 2016-05-08T23:35:00Z galex-713: ah yeah 2016-05-08T23:35:10Z galex-713: Ok so my brain’s just not working 2016-05-08T23:35:24Z galex-713: Are closures part of that good ol' lexical scope? 2016-05-08T23:35:44Z JoshS: macros defining other macros is something I didn't do properly in my macro system which embarrasses me 2016-05-08T23:35:44Z JoshS: you can do it, but not the right way 2016-05-08T23:35:44Z JoshS: the system calls out for a rewrite, but it WORKS which weighs against that 2016-05-08T23:36:09Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-08T23:37:22Z galex-713: qu1j0t3: do you have a link? 2016-05-08T23:38:12Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T23:39:06Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, yes 2016-05-08T23:39:22Z galex-713: ok 2016-05-08T23:39:35Z galex-713: I’m still not understanding what people mean by it 2016-05-08T23:39:44Z galex-713: I did once but I forgot 2016-05-08T23:39:58Z JoshS: lexical scope is the opposite of dynamic scope 2016-05-08T23:41:19Z JoshS: dynamic scope where you do locals by having a bunch of globals, pushing their values on the stack and popping them back off on function exit 2016-05-08T23:41:26Z groovy2shoes: there are a handful of contexts that introduce a new scope, and all of them pretty much boil down to function bodies 2016-05-08T23:41:42Z wasamasa: lexical scope is the kind where you can infer all bindings active in a procedure by looking at its code 2016-05-08T23:41:56Z wasamasa: dynamic scope makes that assumption invalid 2016-05-08T23:43:14Z wasamasa: in that scenario you can mess with the bindings by changing them *outside* that procedure, then one can only know at runtime what their values are 2016-05-08T23:43:49Z groovy2shoes: well, you can infer dynamic bindings by looking at the code, too, but you have to mentally trace the entire dynamic extent of the procedure in question to do so 2016-05-08T23:43:53Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T23:44:12Z wasamasa: you'll definitely need to look at more than the procedure you're interested in 2016-05-08T23:44:26Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T23:44:39Z groovy2shoes: right 2016-05-08T23:45:14Z groovy2shoes: because you also need to know what bindings are as you enter that dynamic extent 2016-05-08T23:45:29Z groovy2shoes: ugh, dynamic scope is such a shitty default... how did anyone ever program that way? 2016-05-08T23:45:46Z wasamasa: you should ask RMS that :P 2016-05-08T23:45:51Z groovy2shoes: lol 2016-05-08T23:45:57Z wasamasa: he'll surely reply something about freedom of the emacs hacker 2016-05-08T23:46:16Z groovy2shoes: haha 2016-05-08T23:46:38Z groovy2shoes: I mean, either way, we *are* talking about *bindings*, here 2016-05-08T23:46:47Z groovy2shoes: don't see the freedom in it, regardless ;) 2016-05-08T23:46:52Z wasamasa: and I agree, it's convenient for changing the way something inside emacs works, but terrible when used for passing information in a complex system 2016-05-08T23:47:39Z groovy2shoes: I think having the ability to create fluid variables is a good thing, because it does come in handy sometimes, but in general, it's the inferior default 2016-05-08T23:48:03Z wasamasa: I'd rather have it the CL way 2016-05-08T23:48:15Z wasamasa: all defvars being dynamic and the rest lexical 2016-05-08T23:48:30Z wasamasa: or as in scheme, with all parameters explicitly defined 2016-05-08T23:53:24Z groovy2shoes: I mostly like it as in Scheme, but I don't like how accessing parameters uses the same syntax as function application 2016-05-08T23:54:38Z groovy2shoes: I also don't like that they're called parameters, again because of the ambiguity 2016-05-08T23:58:30Z groovy2shoes: hmm... how about call-with-current-environment ? ;) 2016-05-09T00:00:20Z JoshS: fluid variables are another of the many (I guess) features taht are amazingly slow in Racket 2016-05-09T00:03:00Z groovy2shoes: that's interesting 2016-05-09T00:15:42Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T00:28:05Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T00:28:44Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-09T00:32:59Z bokr joined #scheme 2016-05-09T00:33:22Z bokr1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T00:37:27Z bokr quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T00:38:25Z bokr joined #scheme 2016-05-09T00:44:12Z JoshS: I guess I should do it right and make my macro system able to easily have macros define macros 2016-05-09T00:44:53Z JoshS: I already do more than that in a different context in that I have macros define macros only for the scope of one parameter 2016-05-09T00:45:16Z JoshS: I'm starting to get tired of adding features... 2016-05-09T00:48:21Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-09T00:48:44Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-09T00:51:59Z zhcy joined #scheme 2016-05-09T00:53:26Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T00:57:02Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T00:57:09Z egg_ joined #scheme 2016-05-09T01:03:12Z lucasem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-09T01:23:03Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T01:24:02Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-09T01:29:51Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2016-05-09T01:32:57Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-09T01:33:08Z tmtwd joined #scheme 2016-05-09T01:40:23Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-09T01:40:35Z zacts joined #scheme 2016-05-09T01:45:40Z scarygelatin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-09T01:46:31Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T01:50:31Z galex-713 joined #scheme 2016-05-09T02:00:29Z Shadox joined #scheme 2016-05-09T02:00:34Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-09T02:08:46Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T02:35:11Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-05-09T02:37:13Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T02:38:21Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2016-05-09T02:43:06Z ArneBab_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T02:48:45Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-09T02:49:13Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-09T02:51:28Z JoshS quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-09T02:53:33Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T03:04:26Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T03:05:39Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-09T03:11:48Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-09T03:12:08Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I never looked into changing them 2016-05-09T15:27:08Z ecraven: I will, as soon as I have a bit more time 2016-05-09T15:27:27Z ecraven: mejja: if you try it and it seems to work well, maybe consider a pull request? 2016-05-09T15:28:02Z mejja: ecraven: of course it works. Just change it in the bench script. 2016-05-09T15:28:26Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-09T15:30:13Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T15:31:35Z mejja: unfortunately for everyone else, it makes a huge difference.. 2016-05-09T15:33:47Z ecraven: running all chez tests again, let's see what the difference is 2016-05-09T15:35:39Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-09T15:38:25Z ecraven: about 16h to run all tests on all schemes, with 5 minutes CPU_LIMIT 2016-05-09T15:38:32Z lalex: do many implementations support this #!sweet syntax? 2016-05-09T15:39:35Z mejja: lalex: Are you stupid? 2016-05-09T15:44:07Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-09T15:47:27Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T15:48:54Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-09T15:48:54Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-09T15:48:54Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-09T15:49:52Z br0kenman quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-09T15:50:57Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T15:51:43Z lalex: mejja: ? 2016-05-09T15:51:48Z lalex: mejja: I don't know 2016-05-09T15:53:10Z lalex: there is too much work involved in the SRFI and implementation to be an april fools 2016-05-09T15:53:40Z krypt quit (Quit: bye) 2016-05-09T15:56:37Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-09T15:57:58Z floor13 joined #scheme 2016-05-09T16:09:15Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-09T16:14:25Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T16:16:58Z eli: JoshS: You should really -- really -- do some reading before you write more nonsensical facts about Racket. 2016-05-09T16:17:35Z JoshS: which "nonsensical facts" are you referring to? 2016-05-09T16:18:12Z eli: "fluid variables" is todays gem; and a whole bunch of misguided stuff about macros last week. 2016-05-09T16:18:48Z JoshS: I benchmarked fluid variables 2016-05-09T16:18:58Z JoshS: slow as fuck compared with my alternatives 2016-05-09T16:19:18Z JoshS: I spent weeks trying to do stuff with the macro system and came here to ask questions too 2016-05-09T16:19:27Z JoshS: well to #racket 2016-05-09T16:19:45Z JoshS: I don't see where I said anything that's nonsensical 2016-05-09T16:20:21Z eli: Like I said: *read* about the subject first. You'll see that fluid-let is a hack for compatibility, you'll see why it's slow, and you'll why parameters solve the same problem -- and do a much better job at that. 2016-05-09T16:21:21Z eli: As for macros, you had a whole monologue on the problems of a hygienic macro system and how you can't break hygiene in Racket (which is complete nonsense too); again, you should read about it before you say such things. 2016-05-09T16:21:27Z eli: For example: http://scheme2011.ucombinator.org/papers/Barzilay2011.pdf 2016-05-09T16:21:36Z JoshS: I might have used parameters rather than fluid let. It might have variable creation that was slow rather than use. 2016-05-09T16:22:18Z JoshS: Look at the code where they DID break the hygiene to do what I wanted to do in their built in object system 2016-05-09T16:22:20Z eli: "might have"?? They're two *completely* different things. 2016-05-09T16:22:29Z JoshS: if you can make head or tail of that code, then you're a GOD 2016-05-09T16:22:41Z eli: Again, read that paper. 2016-05-09T16:22:51Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-09T16:23:00Z JoshS: How about if stuff you need to know is in the documentation instead of in papers 2016-05-09T16:23:12Z qu1j0t3: only one way to find out 2016-05-09T16:23:24Z eli: It describes the issues in great detail, and it describes why breaking hygiene is a bad solution -- as well as keeping hygiene, and it describes syntax parameters that solves the problem in an elegant way. 2016-05-09T16:23:58Z eli: You're talking about the design of a macro system -- that's not what documentation is for. 2016-05-09T16:24:24Z JoshS: Using it should be 2016-05-09T16:24:50Z eli: And using it *is* documented. For the fourth time: you should read stuff before saying nonsense. 2016-05-09T16:25:04Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T16:25:09Z JoshS: The documentation isn't something that a person can read and understand 2016-05-09T16:25:17Z JoshS: maybe if you're in a class where they give you background 2016-05-09T16:25:21Z JoshS: but not reading it cold 2016-05-09T16:26:44Z eli: JoshS: This is getting ridiculous. I'm saying that you should read stuff to avoid saying things that are nonsensical, and you say that you can't read it. 2016-05-09T16:27:10Z JoshS: It's the usual situation where the documentation isn't particularly good 2016-05-09T16:27:11Z eli: In that case your real criticism should be "Racket's documentation is something that *I* can't read" -- and the conclusion is that you should move to something else. 2016-05-09T16:27:31Z JoshS: Enough insults. This conversation is over 2016-05-09T16:28:36Z eli: This is a logical conclusion of what you're saying. Instead of saying things that reall contribute to stuff that you'll take as insults (that is, things that are completely wrong). 2016-05-09T16:28:55Z wingo agrees with eli fwiw 2016-05-09T16:29:28Z JoshS: You 2016-05-09T16:29:39Z JoshS: You're the one who threw out an insult 2016-05-09T16:29:49Z JoshS: Two, if we're counting 2016-05-09T16:29:50Z mejja disagrees 2016-05-09T16:30:13Z eli: No, I suggested you read about stuff before you say things that are clearly wrong, and mislead other people. 2016-05-09T16:30:33Z JoshS: eli> In that case your real criticism should be "Racket's documentation is something that *I* can't read" -- and the conclusion is that you should move to something else. 2016-05-09T16:30:41Z JoshS: As if the documentation is clear 2016-05-09T16:30:41Z JoshS: it isn't 2016-05-09T16:30:42Z eli: IIRC, there is at least one person who you convinced that the whole concept of macros in Scheme is broken. That's proper damage. 2016-05-09T16:31:08Z JoshS: He seemed to be expert enough that he didn't need my opinion 2016-05-09T16:31:11Z JoshS: he has his own 2016-05-09T16:31:24Z JoshS: and he's an expert in compiler design 2016-05-09T16:31:30Z JoshS: and he's writing a new scheme 2016-05-09T16:31:38Z JoshS: I don't think he's my responsibility 2016-05-09T16:31:39Z eli: The documentation might not be clear for everyone -- I completely agree -- and if you cannot improve it, then *not* reading it and talking about stuff is wrong. 2016-05-09T16:32:44Z JoshS: Also I think he only thinks that RACKET'S macros are broken 2016-05-09T16:32:49Z JoshS: not Scheme's 2016-05-09T16:33:27Z mejja: What's the difference? 2016-05-09T16:33:38Z mejja: Fuck JoshS.. You're an eggplant. 2016-05-09T16:33:55Z JoshS: A couple of features that Racket lacks 2016-05-09T16:34:00Z eli: No, he was talking about hygienic macros in general -- the usual conflation of "hygiene == non-procedural macros" 2016-05-09T16:34:44Z eli: For that, I offered you a paper that describes the problems in details, and in the form of code. Surely if you're *implementing* a macro system, it should be readable enough. 2016-05-09T16:34:51Z JoshS: I'll read the paper 2016-05-09T16:34:56Z JoshS: I'm printing it out now 2016-05-09T16:35:03Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T16:36:00Z JoshS: I posed a problem. How do you make a macro that implements an object system. 2016-05-09T16:36:22Z JoshS: The answer came back from someone that you can do it but not with features that Racket has. 2016-05-09T16:36:36Z eli: Yes, you were talking about binding names implicitly. It's the subject of that paper. 2016-05-09T16:37:09Z JoshS: Myself I tried it numerous ways in Racket 2016-05-09T16:37:32Z JoshS: The best I could do was old style lisp macros, but someone showed me that those don't compose with newer style macros 2016-05-09T16:37:54Z JoshS: Messing with tokens directly failed in ways I described 2016-05-09T16:38:38Z eli: Yes, lisp macros behave very differently: they use *symbols*. This is unlike Scheme (*all* Schemes) where we use *identifiers*. 2016-05-09T16:38:53Z eli: identifier = symbol + lexical-context 2016-05-09T16:39:22Z nisstyre quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T16:39:50Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T16:39:54Z JoshS: I wish I could remember an example of where they don't compose 2016-05-09T16:40:06Z JoshS: It's been a couple years 2016-05-09T16:40:25Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T16:41:26Z eli: They obviously don't compose -- since the `defmacro` compatibility layer in Racket can lose lexical information. And this is exactly because of the above: Scheme macors have strictly more knowledge about the code thy manipulate than CL macros. 2016-05-09T16:44:40Z JoshS: is it true that they don't compose with each other? 2016-05-09T16:44:41Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-09T16:45:07Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-09T16:45:13Z eli: Yes 2016-05-09T16:45:54Z eli: It works for simple macros, but can break when you try more advanced stuff because then the defmacro information losage can lead to bogus results. 2016-05-09T16:45:59Z eli: Again, read that paper. 2016-05-09T16:47:46Z leot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T16:49:17Z floor13 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T16:49:58Z pepton2 joined #scheme 2016-05-09T16:53:23Z tannart quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T16:55:02Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-09T16:55:53Z rjnw joined #scheme 2016-05-09T17:00:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T17:01:43Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-09T17:02:45Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-05-09T17:05:24Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T17:07:13Z JoshS: I ran into all of the problems in section 1 of that paper which is what made me conclude that you can't break hygiene in Racket even with datum->syntax 2016-05-09T17:08:06Z JoshS: Which is what I thought datum->syntax was for 2016-05-09T17:08:38Z nisstyre joined #scheme 2016-05-09T17:11:14Z JoshS: Oh, this is the syntax parameter paper 2016-05-09T17:11:29Z JoshS: that doesn't help in the case I gave 2016-05-09T17:11:41Z JoshS: where you're trying to create instance/class variables 2016-05-09T17:11:56Z JoshS: whose names mean NOTHING outside of context, do not raise errors 2016-05-09T17:12:16Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-09T17:12:18Z JoshS: and can be used as variable names 2016-05-09T17:12:27Z JoshS: eli^ 2016-05-09T17:12:56Z davorb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T17:13:29Z davexunit: sounds like a misapplication of macros. 2016-05-09T17:15:32Z JoshS: "An alternative solution is the subject of this paper: Racket’s syntax parameters. In this solution, the 'abort' and 'it' identifiers of the above macros get actual definitions as syntax parameters which are initially unusable (that is, their initial transformers always raise errors) and then the corresponding macros “adjust” the meaning of these bindings for expansion of code in their body" 2016-05-09T17:15:45Z JoshS: That's not a general enough solution 2016-05-09T17:16:16Z JoshS: davexunit, there is an object system in racket which DOES do what I want 2016-05-09T17:16:30Z JoshS: I just wanted to make an alternative object system that would be more efficient 2016-05-09T17:16:33Z JoshS: but I couldn't do it 2016-05-09T17:17:08Z JoshS: and the code that digs under the covers of the syntax in the case of the built in object system was code I couldn't make head or tail of. 2016-05-09T17:17:37Z JoshS: It's not a misapplication to want to have instance variables and class variable names be meaningful inside of methods 2016-05-09T17:17:55Z JoshS: But still to be usuable names outside of methods 2016-05-09T17:18:30Z JoshS: It's standard to all languages that have classes and objects 2016-05-09T17:19:05Z davexunit: shouldn't have said anything. I definitely don't have time for this rabbit hole of a discussion. 2016-05-09T17:19:25Z JoshS: So prickly when you don't have an answer 2016-05-09T17:21:24Z JoshS: eli? 2016-05-09T17:21:25Z davexunit sighs 2016-05-09T17:21:31Z lalex: JoshS: that would be introduction of dynamic scope 2016-05-09T17:22:13Z JoshS: It's a different scope, I'm not sure it's dynamic 2016-05-09T17:22:35Z JoshS: C++ and Java have it. No one says they have dynamic scope. 2016-05-09T17:22:35Z lalex: hm, inside a class definition it would be still lexical, right 2016-05-09T17:22:45Z JoshS: Ruby has it, no one says it has dynamic scope 2016-05-09T17:22:48Z JoshS: Smalltalk... 2016-05-09T17:23:17Z JoshS: The problem in smalltalk style is that you can introduce a method later 2016-05-09T17:23:26Z JoshS: and it figures out what scope you mean. 2016-05-09T17:23:59Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, you can 100% certainly use syntax-case to introduce identifiers and bindings -- I had pastebinned an example of that, which I tested with Racket... it worked fine 2016-05-09T17:24:21Z JoshS: Does it have the problem I pasted? 2016-05-09T17:24:30Z groovy2shoes: your "object system" example doesn't even *need* to introduce identifiers, and can be implemented purely hygienically pretty easily 2016-05-09T17:24:45Z davexunit: groovy2shoes: it's a lost cause. 2016-05-09T17:24:49Z groovy2shoes: and Racket's documentation is pretty thorough 2016-05-09T17:24:56Z groovy2shoes: pretty damn thorough 2016-05-09T17:25:36Z JoshS: The example at the beginning of the paper isn't appropriate though 2016-05-09T17:25:44Z groovy2shoes: I'm not talking about the paper 2016-05-09T17:25:49Z JoshS: if digging deeper it is, then ok 2016-05-09T17:26:49Z groovy2shoes: you have been spouting some completely false things around here the last week or so... besides the things eli mentioned, I also recall some garbage about `define` 2016-05-09T17:27:24Z JoshS: what i said was that it would be useful if an internal define could make a top level binding 2016-05-09T17:27:28Z JoshS: but you can't do that in scheme 2016-05-09T17:27:38Z groovy2shoes: you seem to have pretty strong opinions for someone who's completely misinformed 2016-05-09T17:27:43Z JoshS: define only makes top level bindings at the top level 2016-05-09T17:29:04Z JoshS: What I have is that I tried to implement an object system in Racket and gave up after a month 2016-05-09T17:29:09Z groovy2shoes: May 08 19:06:05 non-top-level defines don't do the same thing as top level defines 2016-05-09T17:29:11Z JoshS: because nothing I did could make the syntax work 2016-05-09T17:29:18Z groovy2shoes: patently false 2016-05-09T17:29:29Z JoshS: That is a matter of interpretation 2016-05-09T17:30:47Z groovy2shoes: no, it's not 2016-05-09T17:30:58Z JoshS: It would be nice if you could introduce say a global definition of a class inside of a binding... you can't 2016-05-09T17:31:25Z groovy2shoes: according to the RnRS, there's only one behavior for define, and it may appear anywhere definitions are allowed to appear, with no special casing for any of those locations 2016-05-09T17:31:54Z groovy2shoes: what do you mean "inside of a binding"? 2016-05-09T17:32:11Z JoshS: It's a matter of perception whether you consider a module level variable THE SAME THING as a local variable 2016-05-09T17:32:12Z groovy2shoes: a binding is just a map of a variable to a storage location 2016-05-09T17:32:18Z JoshS: in scheme people think of them as the same 2016-05-09T17:32:22Z JoshS: in the rest of the world, less so 2016-05-09T17:33:08Z JoshS: The underlying mechanism on the machine code level is often different 2016-05-09T17:33:26Z JoshS: Top level variables can have static addresses 2016-05-09T17:34:44Z groovy2shoes: you seriously don't know what you're talking about 2016-05-09T17:34:55Z groovy2shoes: stop trying to save face because it's only digging the hole deeper 2016-05-09T17:35:01Z JoshS: I think I'm making sense 2016-05-09T17:35:13Z JoshS: I think I'm explaining why I saw it differently 2016-05-09T17:35:28Z groovy2shoes: you seem like a nice guy, but you really need to learn some Scheme before spouting all this garbage about it 2016-05-09T17:38:06Z groovy2shoes: sorry if I'm being harsh... having a bad day and I shouldn't be taking it out on you, but regardless you are misinformed about a lot of Scheme-related things... the R7RS is like 80 pages, give it a read... or if that's too much, the R5RS is mostly a subset, and is 50 pages 2016-05-09T17:38:29Z oleo_ joined #scheme 2016-05-09T17:38:52Z groovy2shoes: if you want to read up about syntax-case, you can do worse than the R6RS, but honestly I suggest the Dybvig papers... just a sec, I can find some URLs 2016-05-09T17:39:17Z floor13 joined #scheme 2016-05-09T17:39:37Z floor13 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-09T17:40:02Z JoshS: Will that explain how you would "use hygienic macros" to be able to add a method to a class after the fact and still be able to have the name of the variables appear in scope? 2016-05-09T17:40:03Z floor13 joined #scheme 2016-05-09T17:40:27Z JoshS: Cause I tried for a very long time, and nothing worked. 2016-05-09T17:40:28Z groovy2shoes: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/tr356.pdf <- start there 2016-05-09T17:40:33Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T17:40:54Z groovy2shoes: then, implementation stuff: 2016-05-09T17:41:05Z groovy2shoes: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/bc-syntax-case.pdf <- good introductory explanation 2016-05-09T17:41:18Z groovy2shoes: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/LaSC-5-4-pp295-326.pdf <- original paper 2016-05-09T17:41:43Z groovy2shoes: then an earlier paper that might be useful: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/LaSC-1-1-pp53-75.pdf 2016-05-09T17:41:46Z JoshS: Are you sure you could do what you say? 2016-05-09T17:41:52Z JoshS: Are you really SURE? 2016-05-09T17:41:54Z groovy2shoes: positive 2016-05-09T17:41:58Z benkard joined #scheme 2016-05-09T17:43:28Z davexunit: or just use generic procedures 2016-05-09T17:43:30Z groovy2shoes: I'll see if I can come up with an example after work 2016-05-09T17:43:34Z benkard quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-09T17:43:43Z groovy2shoes: ah, yes 2016-05-09T17:44:02Z groovy2shoes: generic procedures and multimethods -- the superior object model B) 2016-05-09T17:44:11Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-05-09T17:44:12Z benkard joined #scheme 2016-05-09T17:44:39Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T17:45:49Z JoshS: in my case I wanted instance variables to translate to offsets into an array, indexed with unsafe methods (known safe because I generated the array to have the right entries) 2016-05-09T17:45:59Z aries_liuxueyang joined #scheme 2016-05-09T17:46:09Z JoshS: there has to be a transformer for load and set 2016-05-09T17:46:32Z JoshS: class variables the same, for a different array 2016-05-09T17:47:10Z groovy2shoes: why an array rather than a closure? 2016-05-09T17:47:23Z davexunit: a generic procedure could perform lookups in a vtable. 2016-05-09T17:48:15Z JoshS: I don't remember why 2016-05-09T17:48:39Z JoshS: it was actually more like 6 or 7 years ago now that I think back 2016-05-09T17:49:52Z JoshS: Not a closure so that: 2016-05-09T17:50:01Z JoshS: you can add methods after the fact 2016-05-09T17:50:09Z JoshS: and not need access functions 2016-05-09T17:50:54Z davexunit: you're going to need procedures for accessing and mutating any slot in the object 2016-05-09T17:51:31Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-05-09T17:52:06Z pjb joined #scheme 2016-05-09T17:52:18Z JoshS: compiled to unsafe-vector*-set! unsafe-vector*-ref 2016-05-09T17:52:56Z davexunit: okay 2016-05-09T17:53:09Z davexunit: that's just an optimization detail. 2016-05-09T17:53:43Z JoshS: well if you add a method after the fact then it doesn't have direct access to a closure 2016-05-09T17:53:55Z groovy2shoes: I'm pretty confident that it can be done with closures and without accessor functions 2016-05-09T17:53:59Z JoshS: and would need to use access functions internally 2016-05-09T17:54:20Z groovy2shoes: but, it'll have to wait until after work 2016-05-09T17:54:33Z JoshS: It's not what I'm working on now 2016-05-09T17:54:40Z JoshS: there's no need to finish it 2016-05-09T17:55:27Z davexunit: I think this is a common case of designing with macros rather than focusing on the procedural API and then adding sugar as needed. 2016-05-09T17:55:36Z groovy2shoes: you *would* need accessors for an array, but I think with closures they can be avoided with some cleverness 2016-05-09T17:56:25Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-05-09T17:57:08Z groovy2shoes: hmm, actually... I think it can be a mix of both and work out fine 2016-05-09T17:57:15Z groovy2shoes: have your cake and eat it, too 2016-05-09T17:58:52Z JoshS: I'm not sure why, but a mockup had my objects being created about 20 times faster than the built in system 2016-05-09T17:58:59Z JoshS: and calls were much faster too 2016-05-09T17:59:49Z groovy2shoes: gotta run for now, bbl 2016-05-09T17:59:54Z JoshS: bye 2016-05-09T18:03:41Z eli: JoshS: That is how the Racket object system injects such names 2016-05-09T18:04:53Z eli: There's nothing that "mean NOTHING outside of context" -- it's either a syntax error or not. And the syntax parameters that are described there throw an error when used outside of the lexical context which binds them. 2016-05-09T18:05:31Z eli: The nice thing about syntax parameters is that they do exactly the thing that is an essential part of Scheme: no names are holy -- you can always define things (like `define`) for your own uses. 2016-05-09T18:05:46Z JoshS: I see 2016-05-09T18:05:57Z JoshS: so they will throw an error but they can be hidden? 2016-05-09T18:06:09Z JoshS: If they can be hidden then they're a problem too. 2016-05-09T18:06:12Z eli: So if I have some code with my own definition of `it` or `break`, then that definition will be the one that gets used, since it essentially shadows the syntax-parameter definition. 2016-05-09T18:06:21Z JoshS: Because they'd have to unhide in context 2016-05-09T18:06:32Z JoshS: well SHOULD unhide in context 2016-05-09T18:06:33Z eli: Not hidden -- free for use. 2016-05-09T18:06:55Z eli: In the samples in that paper, you get `break` as something that gets bound inside a `loop`. 2016-05-09T18:07:13Z eli: The question is what do you do with something like (lambda (break) (loop ... break ...)) 2016-05-09T18:07:16Z JoshS: lets say I have a class with an instance variable A 2016-05-09T18:07:37Z JoshS: and inside of a routine I generate a new method for that class and attach it 2016-05-09T18:07:41Z JoshS: and it accesses A 2016-05-09T18:07:53Z eli: And Scheme sticks religiously to lexical scope: it makes that allowed, and since we're sticking to lexical scope, we prefer the user's definition since that's what's in the code. 2016-05-09T18:08:04Z JoshS: The question is what do you do with something like (lambda (break) (loop ... break ...)) 2016-05-09T18:08:05Z JoshS: yes 2016-05-09T18:08:46Z JoshS: inside of (lambda (A) ...) is it true that I can't define a method that accesses A 2016-05-09T18:09:01Z JoshS: and it knows I meant the CLASS' A 2016-05-09T18:09:08Z eli: Note, BTW, that the Racket object system has classes defined in one place -- there are no later extensions of an existing class with new methods (other than inheritance, of course). 2016-05-09T18:09:26Z JoshS: ok 2016-05-09T18:09:59Z eli: Inside of a (lambda (A) ...here...) -- the meaning of A is the argument to the function, always. 2016-05-09T18:10:17Z eli: This holds if A is a syntax parameter -- and if not 2016-05-09T18:10:45Z eli: (And that's the thing that all schemes do: you can always write a (lambda (lambda) ...stuff...) and inside that function `lambda` is the argument). 2016-05-09T18:10:53Z JoshS: I guess it's not easy to implement a smalltalk like class system in scheme 2016-05-09T18:11:25Z JoshS: It's not ?possible? to rematerialize a scope 2016-05-09T18:11:40Z JoshS: even with macros 2016-05-09T18:11:54Z JoshS: ? 2016-05-09T18:12:29Z eli: I don't know too much about smalltalk, but you should separate the two issues. One is dealing with syntax, the other is allowing a definition to be extended in multiple places. The latter is similar to CLOS (which is included in Racket in the form of Swindle, which I implemented but I really don't like it). 2016-05-09T18:13:26Z JoshS: I say smalltalk because you can always allow a definition to be extended in smalltalk 2016-05-09T18:13:28Z eli: Yes, it's possible to "save a scope" in some macro and reuse it later inside some macro inside it -- but for those kind of macros you will really need to read the Racket documentation and you'll probably run into some of the hairy aspects of the whole thing. 2016-05-09T18:13:53Z eli: Yes, I mentioned CLOS because of that. It's exactly the feature that I dislike in CLOS. 2016-05-09T18:14:43Z JoshS: Yes, it's possible to "save a scope" in some macro and reuse it later inside some macro inside it 2016-05-09T18:14:56Z JoshS: But I wanted to reused the scope in a macro OUTSIDE it... 2016-05-09T18:15:03Z JoshS: but as you say CLOS had some way to do it 2016-05-09T18:17:30Z eli: You can do it outside too. See for example how structs are implemented in Racket: a struct definition expands to some code that creates the struct type at runtime, but it also creates a syntax binding that contains a description of the syntax bits that are involved (like the identifier that is used as a constructor etc). Other macros can use that syntactic information when they do things -- for example, that's how 2016-05-09T18:17:30Z eli: the `match` macro knows the "shape" of some struct whose name is used in a pattern. 2016-05-09T18:18:01Z eli: Again, this is *unrelated* to the issue of being able to extend a class (or a generic function) outside of its original definition. 2016-05-09T18:18:04Z JoshS: but macros generate accessor functions 2016-05-09T18:18:19Z eli: Yes, and those are saved too on that thing. 2016-05-09T18:19:20Z JoshS: i don't know the match macro 2016-05-09T18:19:28Z eli: Here, it looks kind of like this: 2016-05-09T18:19:34Z eli: rudybot: eval (struct foo (x)) 2016-05-09T18:19:35Z rudybot: eli: your "http://tmp.barzilay.org/values.rkt" sandbox is ready 2016-05-09T18:19:35Z rudybot: eli: Done. 2016-05-09T18:19:45Z eli: rudybot: init racket 2016-05-09T18:19:46Z rudybot: eli: your sandbox is ready 2016-05-09T18:19:50Z eli: rudybot: eval (struct foo (x)) 2016-05-09T18:19:50Z rudybot: eli: Done. 2016-05-09T18:20:00Z eli: rudybot: eval (begin-for-syntax (printf ">>> ~s\n" (syntax-local-value #'foo))) 2016-05-09T18:20:00Z rudybot: eli: ; stdout: ">>> #\n" 2016-05-09T18:20:24Z eli: That printout is the *syntax-level* value that is on the `foo` identifier. 2016-05-09T18:20:30Z eli: Unrelated to the usual runtime value: 2016-05-09T18:20:34Z eli: rudybot: eval foo 2016-05-09T18:20:35Z rudybot: eli: ; Value: # 2016-05-09T18:21:11Z eli: The syntax value will have the information about the accessors (`foo-x` in this example) mutators, etc. 2016-05-09T18:21:19Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-09T18:21:24Z JoshS: i see 2016-05-09T18:27:42Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-09T18:29:17Z scarygelatin joined #scheme 2016-05-09T18:30:16Z nilg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T18:31:12Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-09T18:47:37Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T18:53:02Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-09T19:02:03Z mumptai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T19:04:34Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-05-09T19:07:15Z benkard quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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That makes sense. 2016-05-09T21:29:50Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T21:30:06Z larcuhl9a38hupha: It's a pragmatic issue. 2016-05-09T21:33:27Z dTal: I'm still not sure what (let (list (n 2)) n) is supposed to do 2016-05-09T21:33:47Z dTal: oh I see 2016-05-09T21:34:26Z andrewvic1 joined #scheme 2016-05-09T21:34:34Z dTal: funny how that works, stare at it for ages and nothing, copy-paste it and ahhhh 2016-05-09T21:36:56Z dTal: I don't think it's just "pragmatic" in the sense of "implementation detail" - the division between "fiddling the syntax" and "running the program" is important 2016-05-09T21:37:07Z asumu: larcuhl9a38hupha: you may also be interested in http://calculist.org/blog/2012/04/17/homoiconicity-isnt-the-point/ 2016-05-09T21:37:55Z asumu: (tldr; what's neat about lisp is that syntax can be read uniformly, but that doesn't mean you can just mix up syntax-time and run-time arbitrarily) 2016-05-09T21:38:56Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-09T21:38:59Z z0d: nice articel 2016-05-09T21:39:18Z andrewvic1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T21:41:29Z larcuhl9a38hupha: That's a good article. 2016-05-09T21:42:17Z larcuhl9a38hupha: I'd still argue that any specific break with homoiconicity is a (pragmatic) implementation detail, but it does a good job of explaining why I shouldn't care. 2016-05-09T21:42:33Z githogori quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T21:44:02Z larcuhl9a38hupha: Care that I can't always replace something that looks like an alist with a (list ...) form, that is. 2016-05-09T21:44:28Z githogori joined #scheme 2016-05-09T21:51:24Z z0d: http://calculist.org/blog/2012/04/17/homoiconicity-isnt-the-point/ 2016-05-09T21:51:28Z z0d: oops 2016-05-09T21:57:25Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-09T22:02:57Z larcuhl9a38hupha quit 2016-05-09T22:04:28Z andrewvic1 joined #scheme 2016-05-09T22:05:29Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T22:11:51Z elflng joined #scheme 2016-05-09T22:13:11Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-09T22:21:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-09T22:26:07Z xoui joined #scheme 2016-05-09T22:26:24Z xoui: when i try to use the 'random' procedure within a let statement i get an 'unbound variable' error. using chicken scheme 2016-05-09T22:26:29Z xoui: any pointers? 2016-05-09T22:27:10Z evhan: xoui: You probably need to (use extras). 2016-05-09T22:27:16Z evhan: See also #chicken. 2016-05-09T22:28:14Z xoui: thank you evhan, i'm getting a different message now haha 2016-05-09T22:28:19Z xoui: i'll poke around in #chicken :) 2016-05-09T22:28:30Z galex-713 joined #scheme 2016-05-09T22:31:05Z xieyuheng_ joined #scheme 2016-05-09T22:34:28Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-09T22:39:46Z andrewvic1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-09T22:40:43Z mumptai quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-05-09T22:41:44Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-09T22:41:44Z lucasem joined #scheme 2016-05-09T22:42:04Z bokr quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-09T22:49:31Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-09T22:51:19Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T23:00:37Z groovy2shoes: z0d, interesting! I actually made some notes a couple days ago that argues that "homoiconicity" means exactly that -- "it has a Lisp-style `read` function" 2016-05-09T23:00:57Z groovy2shoes: was gonna write up a blog post about it, but now I see I don't have to :D 2016-05-09T23:01:30Z groovy2shoes kneels before z0d 2016-05-09T23:02:29Z qu1j0t3: haha 2016-05-09T23:02:43Z groovy2shoes: I mean, the "traditional" definition of homoiconicity is accurate, but not *precise* 2016-05-09T23:02:49Z groovy2shoes: certainly not precise enough to be useful 2016-05-09T23:03:36Z groovy2shoes: hey qu1j0t3 :) 2016-05-09T23:05:50Z groovy2shoes: as I thought about it some more, I felt intuitively that such a read function also sort of mandates a one-to-one correspondence between the concrete syntax and the abstract syntax... i.e., they're one in the same, or at the very least isomorphic (e.g., s-expressions in the first case, m-expressions in the latter), but I haven't invested the time into proving that one way or the other, so my intuition could be wrong 2016-05-09T23:06:52Z dTal: do any serious sexpr programmers (lisp or scheme) remap parens so they don't have to hit shift? 2016-05-09T23:06:58Z floor13 joined #scheme 2016-05-09T23:07:07Z dTal: or does Emacs do it all for you 2016-05-09T23:10:11Z groovy2shoes: I... never even thought of that before 2016-05-09T23:10:16Z groovy2shoes: but that's actually a great idea 2016-05-09T23:10:51Z groovy2shoes: it's weird that I have so many other convenient keybindings for other punctuation, but for parens it just never even struck me 2016-05-09T23:10:59Z dTal: really? I would have thought it would be the first thing to think of 2016-05-09T23:11:20Z groovy2shoes: in retrospect, it seems that way to me, also lol 2016-05-09T23:11:29Z groovy2shoes: dunno why that one slipped my mind, tbh 2016-05-09T23:12:26Z dTal: it'd be easy enough to just swap square and round brackets for miniml impact 2016-05-09T23:12:49Z pjb: dTal: some lispers do. 2016-05-09T23:13:21Z pjb: (defun swap-brackets-parens () (interactive) (keyboard-translate ?\( ?\[) (keyboard-translate ?\) ?\]) (keyboard-translate ?\[ ?\() (keyboard-translate ?\] ?\))) 2016-05-09T23:13:44Z dTal: wow what, what level does *that* work at 2016-05-09T23:13:51Z dTal: I was thinking, you know... xmodmap 2016-05-09T23:13:58Z pjb: in emacs. 2016-05-09T23:14:04Z dTal: oh. 2016-05-09T23:14:10Z dTal: stupid question. 2016-05-09T23:14:16Z pjb: but yes, it might be worth doing it in xmodmap. 2016-05-09T23:14:57Z dTal: I'm a real stubborn b*stard when it comes to emacs 2016-05-09T23:15:32Z pjb: you can implement a spacecadet layout with xmodmap: https://u.teknik.io/nhIA31.png 2016-05-09T23:22:00Z akkad: perhaps this is the place to ask since #chez seems to not know. Is there an equivalent package system on chez? like eggs? or rkt packages? 2016-05-09T23:24:06Z groovy2shoes: akkad, snow might work... it's theoretically designed to be portable across implementations, but I haven't used it myself, so I can't really vouch for it 2016-05-09T23:25:25Z akkad: nothing like quicklisp then. 2016-05-09T23:26:13Z pjb: You could implement quicklisp and asdf on scheme. 2016-05-09T23:26:21Z pjb: Using the same infrastructure as quicklisp. 2016-05-09T23:27:09Z akkad: wrt scheme packages. 2016-05-09T23:29:02Z alyssa joined #scheme 2016-05-09T23:29:14Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T23:29:34Z alyssa: (eq? (second '(x ... y)) '...) works. Why not: 2016-05-09T23:29:44Z alyssa: (eq? (second '(x . y)) '.) ? 2016-05-09T23:34:10Z sz0 joined #scheme 2016-05-09T23:39:42Z alyssa quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2016-05-09T23:40:19Z Guest28442 is now known as micro` 2016-05-09T23:42:13Z pjb: alyssa: because the dot is not there, just like the parentheses; in lisp or scheme, there are no parentheses and no dots. Only lisp objects. (x . y) is read as a cons cell with a reference to the x symbol and a reference to the y symbol. No dot, no parenthesis. 2016-05-09T23:43:13Z xoui quit (Quit: xoui) 2016-05-09T23:43:38Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T23:54:32Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-10T00:06:32Z alyssa joined #scheme 2016-05-10T00:07:38Z alyssa: pjb: Alright, thanks :-) 2016-05-10T00:09:43Z pjb: alyssa: notice that you should be able to read a symbol named "." by escaping it. Then (x \. y) would be a list of three symbols (three chained cons cells, with () in the last cdr). 2016-05-10T00:10:27Z pjb: (cadr '(x \. y)) --> \. 2016-05-10T00:11:01Z alyssa: pjb: Is read just not meant for Lisp code itself? :/ 2016-05-10T00:11:47Z pjb: It is, but (x . y) is a special syntax for cons cells (pairs), which are the fundamental structure from which lists such as (a b c) are built. (a b c) is read as the same thing as (a . (b . (c . ()))) 2016-05-10T00:12:08Z pjb: in scheme, () is read as the empty-list object (singleton). 2016-05-10T00:12:28Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-10T00:12:33Z alyssa: pjb: Is there a cleaner way to handle variadic functions that I'm missing then? 2016-05-10T00:12:53Z pjb: (define (fun . args) (do-something-with-argument-list args)) 2016-05-10T00:12:54Z alyssa: (lambda (x y . z) (+ x y (foldl + z))) 2016-05-10T00:13:01Z pjb: or yes, like this. 2016-05-10T00:13:06Z alyssa: if I need to parse that as s-exprs I mean 2016-05-10T00:13:51Z pjb: The test you will make is (eql? (cdr args) '()) 2016-05-10T00:14:10Z groovy2shoes: also: '(x |.| y) ; valid in R{6,7}RS 2016-05-10T00:14:14Z alyssa: ohhhh ok 2016-05-10T00:14:16Z alyssa: pjb: thanks :-) 2016-05-10T00:15:22Z floor13 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-10T00:15:43Z pjb: Compare: (do ((args '(x y . z) (cdr args))) ((not (pair? args)) args) (display args) (newline)) with (do ((args '(x y z) (cdr args))) ((not (pair? args)) args) (display args) (newline)) 2016-05-10T00:17:08Z pjb: (x y z) is called a proper list. (x y . z) is called a dotted list. When walking a list, you have to consider 3 cases: (cond ((pair? (cdr current)) …) ((eql? (cdr current) '()) 'proper-list) (else 'dotted-list)) 2016-05-10T00:17:31Z alyssa: I thought scheme was supposed to be uniform and elegant :P 2016-05-10T00:17:54Z pjb: There's some legacy/historic element in it too. 2016-05-10T00:18:23Z pjb: But then, the elegancy is in having this cons cell (pair) data type, a structure of two slots, from which any other data structure can be built. 2016-05-10T00:18:53Z alyssa: pjb: Is there a good reason for a modern Scheme that doesn't need backwards compatability / cool academic stuff to support dotted lists? 2016-05-10T00:19:23Z pjb: well, you would have to add some syntax for variadic functions :-) 2016-05-10T00:19:46Z pjb: But otherwise, you could remove the cons cell data type and only have lists as primitive type. 2016-05-10T00:19:47Z xieyuheng_ quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160503215307]) 2016-05-10T00:20:01Z pjb: This was even discussed in the AIM-8 paper in 1959… 2016-05-10T00:20:16Z xieyuheng_ joined #scheme 2016-05-10T00:20:41Z pjb: section 4.2 Binary Lisp in http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/aim-8.html 2016-05-10T00:20:41Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/WgBEBdrgCm 2016-05-10T00:21:13Z xieyuheng_ is now known as xieyuheng 2016-05-10T00:21:41Z groovy2shoes: what's so inelegant about pairs? 2016-05-10T00:21:57Z pjb: groovy2shoes: dotted lists :-) 2016-05-10T00:22:09Z groovy2shoes: what's inelegant about dotted lists? 2016-05-10T00:22:21Z pjb: it adds one case when processing lists. 2016-05-10T00:22:42Z pjb: Instead of just testing for the end of the list, you have now to test also for a non-() atom. 2016-05-10T00:22:44Z groovy2shoes: I mean, the fact that they end in nil is really just convention afaik, to ensure that the cdr is always a pointer in every list-pair 2016-05-10T00:23:20Z groovy2shoes: or... you could just test for *any* atom and vòila! that's the end of the list :p 2016-05-10T00:23:20Z pjb: True. Also, you could use other atoms to "mark" different kinds of lists. You don't have to use (). 2016-05-10T00:23:53Z pjb: groovy2shoes: yes. But scheme doesn't have atom? It only has pair? so you have to write (define (atom? x) (not (pair? x))). I mean, there's a slant there… 2016-05-10T00:24:04Z groovy2shoes: I think having that kind of flexibility makes it *more* elegant, not less 2016-05-10T00:24:20Z pjb: I would say so too. 2016-05-10T00:24:38Z groovy2shoes: though I could see how one might argue that the "dot" syntax isn't particularly elegant 2016-05-10T00:25:13Z xieyuheng: anyone knows a simple monad lib for scheme ? 2016-05-10T00:25:15Z groovy2shoes: well, traditionally, atom? *is* (compose not pair?) 2016-05-10T00:25:32Z groovy2shoes: xieyuheng, monads don't really make much sense in untyped languages... 2016-05-10T00:25:33Z pjb: I find a-lists nice: ((a . 1) (b . 2)) instead of {a => 1, b => 2}. 2016-05-10T00:25:40Z alyssa: pjb: groovy2shoes: ahhh stop making me love scheme less :P 2016-05-10T00:25:41Z groovy2shoes: me too 2016-05-10T00:25:55Z groovy2shoes: alyssa, hmm? 2016-05-10T00:26:06Z pjb: anyways, it's late. Good night! 2016-05-10T00:26:07Z xieyuheng: groovy2shoes: one can use monad without type check and type class 2016-05-10T00:26:13Z pjb quit (Quit: dodo) 2016-05-10T00:26:18Z alyssa: groovy2shoes: I'm still in the honeymoon phase with Racket ;) 2016-05-10T00:26:19Z groovy2shoes: there's plenty to not like about Scheme... that's why I'm making Evelin :p 2016-05-10T00:26:38Z groovy2shoes: oh, well, Racket is even grittier than standard Scheme :p 2016-05-10T00:26:53Z groovy2shoes: in the name of practicality, and all 2016-05-10T00:26:55Z xieyuheng: what evelin ? 2016-05-10T00:27:16Z groovy2shoes: and believe me, Racket is quite practical... I've successfully used it for a number of projects in industry 2016-05-10T00:27:59Z groovy2shoes: despite its origins as a vehicle for education and research, it's got a massive standard library that makes a lot of applications particularly convenient 2016-05-10T00:28:07Z groovy2shoes: xieyuheng, it's a dialect of Lisp that I'm working on 2016-05-10T00:28:31Z alyssa: groovy2shoes: Is there anyone here not implementing a dialect of Lisp? ;) 2016-05-10T00:28:33Z groovy2shoes: it stands for "Extensible, Vertible, and Expressive List and Intelligence Notation" 2016-05-10T00:28:51Z groovy2shoes: oh, but alyssa... this one is serious 2016-05-10T00:28:55Z groovy2shoes: this one ain't no toy 2016-05-10T00:29:01Z alyssa: groovy2shoes: of course 2016-05-10T00:29:07Z groovy2shoes: I've put in my time with toy Lisps :D 2016-05-10T00:30:05Z groovy2shoes: this one is the result of research into much of Lisp, going as far back as LISP 1.5 and into such obscure territory as VLISP, picking up some French along the way to understand the Le-Lisp stuff 2016-05-10T00:31:06Z groovy2shoes: though I still haven't been willing to shell out the $160+ USD for the official ISLISP spec... I'm counting on the "public domain" version specifying the same language 2016-05-10T00:31:18Z alyssa: :-) 2016-05-10T00:31:43Z groovy2shoes: $60 for Common Lisp was reasonable, and I have access to IEEE Xplore through my employer 2016-05-10T00:32:32Z groovy2shoes: though some caution on the ANSI Common Lisp: it seems that the originals were lost at some point, so the PDF is actually a shitty, low-res scan of the original printed version 2016-05-10T00:32:57Z groovy2shoes: complete with dark circles where the three-hole punch went through 2016-05-10T00:34:06Z groovy2shoes: found a printed copy through tech street, though it's really just a printed version of that same shitty PDF that's been printed (on nice quality paper, granted) and three-hole punched, but I got some binding glue and made that mofo into a book 2016-05-10T00:34:53Z groovy2shoes: it's honestly the most well-written language standard I've ever read 2016-05-10T00:35:27Z groovy2shoes: with perhaps the R2RS-R5RS coming in as close runners-up 2016-05-10T00:35:54Z groovy2shoes: then... probably SML '97 2016-05-10T00:36:20Z groovy2shoes: though that fucker has a bunch of issues with ambiguity, so scratch that one 2016-05-10T00:37:00Z groovy2shoes: I should say, it reads well, and it's generally quite precise, but due to some serious flaws, I retract the "well-written" assertion 2016-05-10T00:38:53Z groscoe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T00:41:03Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-10T00:47:19Z alyssa: (Somewhat off-topic): As a vimmer, I feel bad asking, but how popular is emacs here? 2016-05-10T00:54:04Z zhcy joined #scheme 2016-05-10T00:54:21Z groovy2shoes: alyssa, I'm normally a vimmer as well 2016-05-10T00:54:30Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-10T00:54:31Z scarygelatin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-10T00:54:36Z groovy2shoes: the last month or so I've been trying to learn emacs, but it's been pretty slow-going 2016-05-10T00:54:52Z groovy2shoes: and no, evil-mode doesn't count, so don't even 2016-05-10T00:55:02Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-05-10T00:55:04Z lucasem: alyssa: I'm also a vimmer, but whenever I need to test/execute I use edwin (mit-scheme --edit) 2016-05-10T00:55:17Z groovy2shoes: and I'll never touch spacemacs again... what a horrible POS that was 2016-05-10T00:59:36Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-10T00:59:37Z Menche quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-10T00:59:46Z Menche joined #scheme 2016-05-10T01:00:34Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-10T01:01:22Z groovy2shoes: alyssa, lucasem, you can get decent REPL integration with Conque: https://github.com/vim-scripts/Conque-Shell or with tmux integration: https://github.com/brauner/vimtux or https://github.com/jebaum/vim-tmuxify 2016-05-10T01:02:07Z groovy2shoes: I haven't used vim-tmuxify, but vimtux works pretty well 2016-05-10T01:02:17Z juanfra quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T01:02:41Z groovy2shoes: replaced Conque for me, but Conque has the advantage that you don't need tmux and it works a little more transparently inside gvim 2016-05-10T01:03:19Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-10T01:03:52Z alyssa: groovy2shoes: I run everything in deeply nested tmux anyway, so :P 2016-05-10T01:04:02Z alyssa: Actually I consider a shell lacking if there's not a multiplexer 2016-05-10T01:04:15Z groovy2shoes: :) 2016-05-10T01:04:16Z alyssa: Right now I'm talking in weechat in tmux over ssh in another tmux ^_^ 2016-05-10T01:04:25Z groovy2shoes: heheheh nice 2016-05-10T01:04:41Z groovy2shoes: ever since I switched to awesome, I haven't really felt the need to use tmux so much 2016-05-10T01:04:50Z alyssa: groovy2shoes: we should probably PM :P 2016-05-10T01:04:58Z groovy2shoes: especially since I don't get to use ssh at work, we're forced to use some Citrix remote desktop bullshit 2016-05-10T01:05:10Z groovy2shoes: heh, sure 2016-05-10T01:05:35Z groovy2shoes: luckily I managed to get dwm installed in my home dir at work, so that's alright 2016-05-10T01:08:14Z xieyuheng left #scheme 2016-05-10T01:08:31Z juanfra joined #scheme 2016-05-10T01:19:00Z juanfra quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T01:24:12Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-10T01:25:50Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-10T01:29:39Z zhcy1 joined #scheme 2016-05-10T01:31:21Z zhcy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T01:31:22Z zhcy1 is now known as zhcy 2016-05-10T01:43:52Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-10T01:45:08Z juanfra joined #scheme 2016-05-10T01:51:34Z karswell joined #scheme 2016-05-10T01:56:08Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-10T01:58:41Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-05-10T02:04:32Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-10T02:08:32Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-10T02:13:57Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-10T02:17:13Z tmtwd joined #scheme 2016-05-10T02:17:29Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-10T02:18:01Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-05-10T02:30:53Z mejja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-10T02:31:17Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-10T02:31:27Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-10T02:31:27Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-05-10T02:32:12Z SHODAN quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-10T02:34:29Z SHODAN joined #scheme 2016-05-10T02:35:41Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-10T02:37:32Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2016-05-10T02:41:13Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-10T02:45:04Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-05-10T02:45:04Z mastokley quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-10T02:45:36Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-05-10T02:46:59Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-10T02:48:15Z jlongster quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-10T02:56:41Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-10T02:59:44Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-10T02:59:59Z andrewvic quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-10T03:02:52Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I want to try out different approaches to AI, but I need something to start with such as defining tasks etc. Is there a good book about AI programming in Scheme? 2016-05-10T13:16:55Z gr8: I know there is some stuff for LISP but I like Scheme more so I'd like to read something about Scheme for AI 2016-05-10T13:23:11Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-10T13:23:39Z vydd quit 2016-05-10T13:25:15Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-10T13:33:38Z pierpa: I don't know of any *recent* scheme AI book. But you can use the CL ones. 2016-05-10T13:35:01Z z0d: gr8: there is PAIP, which is Common Lisp, but I think it's not hard to adopt it for Scheme if you're brave 2016-05-10T13:35:16Z z0d: gr8: http://norvig.com/paip.html 2016-05-10T13:37:28Z oleo joined #scheme 2016-05-10T13:38:35Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-10T13:38:54Z pierpa: gr8: there's this one http://www.amazon.com/Programming-SCHEME-Artificial-Intelligence-Programs/dp/0387946810 but I don't know it. MArk Watson though is ok. He actually uses/used Scheme. 2016-05-10T13:38:54Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/d5rpzkihkF 2016-05-10T13:40:13Z pierpa: (NB: he's not one of Britain's most popular young stand-up comedians. :) 2016-05-10T13:40:38Z z0d: pierpa: no spoilers pls! :-P 2016-05-10T13:40:45Z pierpa: :D 2016-05-10T13:41:02Z aries_liuxueyang joined #scheme 2016-05-10T13:42:00Z pierpa: there's another on, which have read in the past, but the titles escapes my memory at the moment 2016-05-10T13:42:06Z pierpa: *another one 2016-05-10T14:01:43Z gr8 left #scheme 2016-05-10T14:11:38Z walter|r_ joined #scheme 2016-05-10T14:13:15Z qu1j0t3: Not sure if you need a language-specific book. 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Could you tell me any projects that might be interesting for me? 2016-05-11T09:53:55Z pierpa: if you want machine code, any which generates m.c. directly will do. 2016-05-11T09:54:16Z pierpa: directly, as in no through a C compiler 2016-05-11T09:54:22Z pierpa: *not 2016-05-11T09:54:55Z gr8: could you give an example of such a compiler? 2016-05-11T09:55:08Z pierpa: Chez, Larceny, Racket 2016-05-11T09:55:48Z pierpa: [these are the ones I know, there are certainly others] 2016-05-11T09:57:51Z gr8: but I think the problem is with modern x86 architectures that executable code is not allowed to change while running, and data is not allowed being executed?! 2016-05-11T09:58:58Z pierpa: code is not patched. The unit of compilation is a function. A whole function is replaced at a time. 2016-05-11T09:59:27Z pierpa: you patch or modify at your will the source code, and then recompile the function 2016-05-11T10:00:38Z pierpa: As for data being executed, lisp systems must find a way to do it nevertheless :] 2016-05-11T10:00:52Z pierpa: lisp systems which produce native code, I mean 2016-05-11T10:00:54Z gr8: ^^ 2016-05-11T10:01:10Z gr8: right 2016-05-11T10:01:55Z gr8: maybe it would be easier to just use Scheme as a black box and write the self-modifying code in Scheme without thinking about it too much ;) 2016-05-11T10:02:59Z pierpa: yes, if you are starting to experiment, you may relax the requirement of native code, and work with scheme without worrying about speed. 2016-05-11T10:03:08Z DGASAU: It's not clear what you call "self-modifying code in Scheme." 2016-05-11T10:03:28Z DGASAU: You cannot modify any code in Scheme. 2016-05-11T10:03:32Z DGASAU: At all. 2016-05-11T10:03:38Z groovy2shoes: ^ 2016-05-11T10:03:59Z pierpa: he can build data structures which can be feed to the resident scheme compiler 2016-05-11T10:04:14Z groovy2shoes: not the same as modifying code 2016-05-11T10:04:29Z DGASAU: That's not "self-modifying." 2016-05-11T10:04:35Z pierpa: it is, applying a normal amount of common sense 2016-05-11T10:05:16Z groovy2shoes: if you've written self-modifying code before, you'll understand that it's not 2016-05-11T10:05:17Z DGASAU: I don't know what background you have to have to consider this a self-modifying code. 2016-05-11T10:05:36Z pierpa: Have a nice day, people 2016-05-11T10:05:46Z groovy2shoes: you too 2016-05-11T10:07:19Z DGASAU: BTW, I'm not sure that identifiers are allowed to escape "eval". 2016-05-11T10:07:45Z DGASAU: Most likely, they are not. 2016-05-11T10:07:56Z gr8: DGASAU: "You cannot modify any code in Scheme. At all." <-- why not? Would there be a way to make that possible? I am not that deep into the topic yet, but very curious 2016-05-11T10:08:00Z groovy2shoes: hmm... for some reason I think they're allowed to, but not required to 2016-05-11T10:08:38Z DGASAU: gr8: well... you need direct low-level access to memory in order to do that. 2016-05-11T10:09:23Z gr8: uhm yeah that was the original question ... I mean the resulting machine code has low-level access, no? 2016-05-11T10:10:00Z DGASAU: Yes, but you want unrestricted access. 2016-05-11T10:10:33Z groovy2shoes: ah, okay... so, definitions are allowed to escape eval but only if the environment is mutable... with the exception of interaction-environment, all the standard environments are allowed to be immutable 2016-05-11T10:11:39Z Naraka quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T10:11:50Z groovy2shoes: (in R7RS at least) 2016-05-11T10:14:09Z gr8: if I think about it, could one achieve the same effect of self-modifying code with a normal immutable code / mutable data setup? I mean with the same asymptotic efficiency 2016-05-11T10:14:36Z groovy2shoes: that very much depends on the problem and solution(s) 2016-05-11T10:15:56Z wasamasa: gr8: please present an actual problem to be solved with self-modifying scheme code 2016-05-11T10:16:33Z wasamasa: for some reason I can only recall that topic as sidenote in a wikipedia article about malware and how it obfuscates itself... 2016-05-11T10:17:24Z gr8: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-modifying_code#Self-referential_machine_learning_systems 2016-05-11T10:17:24Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/q6XMius0sB 2016-05-11T10:17:26Z DGASAU: I know a type of problems that require reflection. 2016-05-11T10:17:36Z DGASAU: But they don't require self-modifying code. 2016-05-11T10:17:52Z gr8: or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-modifying_code#Usage 2016-05-11T10:18:38Z wasamasa: none of these sound like a usecase beyond implementation detail or a niche curiosity 2016-05-11T10:19:21Z gr8: 100% niche curiosity in my case 2016-05-11T10:19:29Z gr8: but that doesn't make it less relevant ;) 2016-05-11T10:19:30Z wasamasa: like, JIT compilers 2016-05-11T10:19:57Z wasamasa: which I'd put into the implementation detail category as you don't ever access that functionality from programs 2016-05-11T10:20:21Z DGASAU: JITC are still not modifying in canonical meaning. 2016-05-11T10:20:49Z DGASAU: They throw away large chunks of code. 2016-05-11T10:21:02Z wasamasa: worse, with W^X doing that stuff will make your program unusable on machines having that protection on 2016-05-11T10:22:24Z DGASAU: (IMO, that wikipedia page is nonsensical.) 2016-05-11T10:23:10Z wasamasa: why does the page even speak of function pointers? 2016-05-11T10:23:18Z DGASAU: The canonical example of useful self-modifying code is famous line-drawing algorithm. 2016-05-11T10:23:30Z DGASAU: (Or was it flood fill?) 2016-05-11T10:24:23Z z0d: which one? 2016-05-11T10:24:54Z DGASAU: As of today, I know only one case of useful self-modifying code. 2016-05-11T10:24:55Z wasamasa: bresenham? 2016-05-11T10:26:17Z DGASAU: wasamasa: I think so too. 2016-05-11T10:26:56Z DGASAU: In any case, self-modification proved to cause a lot of problems when Pentiums came. 2016-05-11T10:27:15Z DGASAU: (Or what was the first CPU with speculative execution?) 2016-05-11T10:28:51Z z0d: I believe it was the Pentium 2016-05-11T10:29:05Z z0d: at least, on x86 2016-05-11T10:29:06Z DGASAU: Whatever. 2016-05-11T10:29:36Z DGASAU: Self-modifying line drawing fell out of fashion very quickly at that time. 2016-05-11T10:30:05Z DGASAU: Basically, the only self-modifying code that left was viruses. :) 2016-05-11T10:30:19Z z0d: the topic is still interesting <-: 2016-05-11T10:30:31Z DGASAU: Which one? 2016-05-11T10:30:40Z DGASAU: Viruses? 2016-05-11T10:30:49Z DGASAU: Viruses were funny. 2016-05-11T10:30:51Z DGASAU: Sometimes. 2016-05-11T10:30:52Z z0d: self-modifying viruses 2016-05-11T10:31:03Z z0d: I was amazed by some on DOS baxck in the day 2016-05-11T10:31:27Z DGASAU: I debugged OneHalf for some time. 2016-05-11T10:31:46Z DGASAU: Had too much spare time. 2016-05-11T10:38:02Z pobivan joined #scheme 2016-05-11T10:39:41Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-11T10:40:44Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-11T10:45:26Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T10:54:39Z davorb joined #scheme 2016-05-11T10:58:27Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-11T10:59:15Z lritter joined #scheme 2016-05-11T11:01:41Z chishiki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T11:04:40Z chishiki joined #scheme 2016-05-11T11:09:53Z t4nk264 joined #scheme 2016-05-11T11:10:22Z t4nk264 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T11:10:40Z t4nk522 joined #scheme 2016-05-11T11:12:00Z bokr quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-11T11:12:32Z t4nk522 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T11:15:01Z gr8 left #scheme 2016-05-11T11:34:37Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T11:53:56Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-11T12:06:47Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-11T12:13:29Z rszeno quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:14:00Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T12:14:47Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:23:33Z mj12` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-11T12:24:30Z novavis joined #scheme 2016-05-11T12:27:24Z ggole joined #scheme 2016-05-11T12:28:53Z xoui joined #scheme 2016-05-11T12:31:16Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-11T12:36:19Z ggole_ joined #scheme 2016-05-11T12:38:33Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:43:12Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:49:51Z ggole__ joined #scheme 2016-05-11T12:50:41Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-11T12:51:59Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:55:44Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:02:52Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T13:04:30Z benkard joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:05:40Z ggole__ joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:06:01Z benkard quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T13:08:07Z drdo joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:08:14Z galex-713 joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:12:35Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:15:29Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:16:12Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:22:27Z galex-713 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-11T13:28:21Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:34:13Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:35:23Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T13:37:49Z tmtwd joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:46:43Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:51:32Z ggole_ joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:52:11Z bobbywilson0 joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:53:31Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T13:54:54Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T13:54:55Z ecraven: badkins: new benchmark including racket 6.5 at http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/scheme-benchmark-r7rs.html 2016-05-11T13:55:27Z badkins: ecraven: awesome - thanks! 2016-05-11T13:55:46Z ecraven: ah, a second, I need to fix the sumfp problem 2016-05-11T13:55:54Z ecraven: just a display thing 2016-05-11T13:56:53Z ggole__ joined #scheme 2016-05-11T13:58:03Z ecraven: done :) 2016-05-11T13:58:44Z ecraven: hm.. would be interesting why mit is so abysmal at `sum1' 2016-05-11T13:59:38Z taylan: wow, didn't know Racket was so fast 2016-05-11T13:59:43Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T14:00:15Z ecraven: taylan: me neither 2016-05-11T14:00:18Z ecraven: but it definitely is 2016-05-11T14:00:47Z ecraven: well, at least for the benchmarks :) 2016-05-11T14:01:22Z ecraven: chez is just insane :-) would be great to have some comparison benchmarks to other languages 2016-05-11T14:02:26Z taylan: indeed 2016-05-11T14:03:30Z mario-goulart: Racket uses a JIT, right? 2016-05-11T14:03:51Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T14:03:54Z jcowan: Yes 2016-05-11T14:04:00Z jcowan: contrary to my previous remarks that it didn't 2016-05-11T14:04:39Z jcowan: see http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/CompilerAvailable <-- who's got what kind of compiler 2016-05-11T14:05:05Z mario-goulart: I may be wrong, but I have a feeling benchmarks are the ideal scenario for JITs. Compile a relatively small program once, run it many times. 2016-05-11T14:05:36Z jcowan nods 2016-05-11T14:05:55Z jcowan: Still, that's exactly what happens with hot inner loops, which by definition are where programs spend their time anyhow. 2016-05-11T14:06:21Z xoui: ecraven; wow; chez is fast 2016-05-11T14:08:24Z mario-goulart: jcowan: yeah, but in benchmarks it is a bit unfair, as the runtime cost of the JIT analysis is tiny. The JIT inflicts practically no overhead. Not sure if that is the case in real-world programs in general. 2016-05-11T14:09:08Z mario-goulart: Maybe it actually pays off, but I'd guess not in the same proportion as in benchmarks. 2016-05-11T14:10:15Z jcowan nods. 2016-05-11T14:10:28Z ggole__ is now known as ggole 2016-05-11T14:11:29Z jcowan: Still, it's unclear if any of ecraven's Schemes don't at least have bytecode without JIT. 2016-05-11T14:13:19Z jcowan: AOT compilers have an actual interface, whereas JIT compilers operate behind the scenes, and you have to poke about in docs or look at actual code to determine if one is available. 2016-05-11T14:16:05Z pierpa: jcowan and others interested in the benchmark: in racket the jit can be disabled, if someone is interested in checking its effect 2016-05-11T14:24:54Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T14:28:02Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-11T14:31:16Z drdo joined #scheme 2016-05-11T14:39:30Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T14:48:22Z qu1j0t3: xoui: yeah... 2016-05-11T14:48:35Z drdo quit (Quit: :O) 2016-05-11T14:49:05Z drdo joined #scheme 2016-05-11T14:54:49Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-11T15:03:51Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T15:12:21Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-11T15:15:04Z xieyuheng quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160503215307]) 2016-05-11T15:16:05Z grettke quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-11T15:21:19Z scarygelatin joined #scheme 2016-05-11T15:26:51Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T15:40:18Z br0kenman quit (Quit: q) 2016-05-11T15:52:20Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-11T16:06:54Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-11T16:09:38Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-11T16:14:16Z vydd_ joined #scheme 2016-05-11T16:18:21Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:22:50Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:35:45Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-11T16:41:38Z alezost quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:45:22Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-11T16:47:36Z vydd__ joined #scheme 2016-05-11T16:47:43Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:48:17Z vydd_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T16:49:41Z vydd__ is now known as vydd_ 2016-05-11T16:50:57Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:50:59Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-11T16:51:15Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2016-05-11T16:51:16Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-11T16:51:16Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-11T16:52:00Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:52:13Z aries_liuxueyang joined #scheme 2016-05-11T16:57:16Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:00:01Z lucasem joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:01:10Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-11T17:11:46Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T17:17:47Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:20:04Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:21:16Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:22:49Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T17:24:53Z scarygelatin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T17:25:21Z igajsin1 joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:26:04Z igajsin1 left #scheme 2016-05-11T17:26:17Z ggole quit 2016-05-11T17:26:32Z mumptai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T17:27:10Z scarygelatin joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:28:10Z Naraka joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:29:15Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:31:28Z rjnw joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:31:34Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T17:33:56Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T17:34:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:37:58Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:41:59Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:44:02Z grettke quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T17:45:20Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T17:47:12Z pjb joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:52:35Z dsp_ is now known as dsp 2016-05-11T17:53:00Z dsp quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-11T17:53:11Z dsp joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:53:23Z scarygelatin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T17:54:00Z scarygelatin joined #scheme 2016-05-11T17:58:19Z xoui quit (Quit: xoui) 2016-05-11T18:02:50Z pepton2 joined #scheme 2016-05-11T18:17:33Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-11T18:29:05Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-11T18:33:39Z jcowan: I gotta love the implementation documentation on Llava, one of the Schemes in my test suite. Here it is in its entirety. 2016-05-11T18:33:42Z jcowan: ... 2016-05-11T18:34:40Z pjb: It's microfilmed? 2016-05-11T18:38:17Z badkins_ is now known as badkins 2016-05-11T18:38:54Z bobbywilson0 quit 2016-05-11T18:38:56Z wasamasa looks in awe 2016-05-11T18:43:54Z lucasem: lol 2016-05-11T18:47:32Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T18:55:22Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-11T19:06:23Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T19:09:49Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-11T19:19:12Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-11T19:24:12Z blackwolf joined #scheme 2016-05-11T19:30:12Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-11T19:30:16Z qu1j0t3: interesting 2016-05-11T19:30:25Z qu1j0t3: one of those moments i wish i had a retina or 4k display 2016-05-11T19:31:09Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-11T19:39:48Z rjnw quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-11T19:40:34Z jcowan: qu1j0t3: You don't have a working retina? 2016-05-11T19:41:16Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T19:41:29Z karswell joined #scheme 2016-05-11T19:46:33Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T19:46:41Z badkins: ecraven: odd that Racket 6.5 has lower accumulated run time, but is only the absolute winner 1 time vs. 3 for 6.4. Regardless, I'm pretty pleased with the speed given the richness of the language and ecosystem. I do still want to play with Chez - amazing speed there. 2016-05-11T19:49:44Z jorrakay: can you embed chez? I have been working with chibi and those benchmarks are pretty disappointing 2016-05-11T19:50:18Z jorrakay: i need somewhat decent interface to C though 2016-05-11T19:50:25Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-11T19:50:51Z jorrakay . o O ( or do I ) 2016-05-11T19:52:37Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-11T19:52:58Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-11T19:54:50Z jcowan: You can write C code that embeds in Chez, but it is not designed to be embedded. 2016-05-11T19:56:19Z jcowan: Trying to get Scheme->C working on 64-bit Linux, no success so far 2016-05-11T19:56:43Z jorrakay: gotcha. honestly the only reason I'm using a C base is so that I can use FastCGI and Redis 2016-05-11T19:56:45Z arbv quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.5.1) 2016-05-11T19:56:59Z jorrakay: chibi has worked very well for this so far, the C FFI is great 2016-05-11T19:57:08Z mejja: jcowan: try-m32 (or fetch it with apt get) 2016-05-11T19:57:14Z jcowan: In that case, and if speed matters, you might want to use Chicken 2016-05-11T19:57:24Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-11T19:57:34Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T19:57:41Z jcowan: mejja: I compiled it okay with -m32, but adding -m32 to the compilation script so that the C output will be compiled that way seems to break it. 2016-05-11T19:57:51Z jcowan: didn't think of packaged version 2016-05-11T19:58:01Z jorrakay: oh wow i didn't know chicken had fastcgi bindings 2016-05-11T19:58:48Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-11T20:00:34Z jcowan: Chicken has a lot of libraries, though not as many as Racket 2016-05-11T20:05:26Z jcowan: mejja: Alas, scheme2c is not packaged for Fedora. Looking into alien... 2016-05-11T20:06:03Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T20:06:07Z jcowan: okay, loading 38 pkgs to get alien going 2016-05-11T20:10:11Z jcowan: baah, alien output tries to create /, /usr/bin, /usr/lib 2016-05-11T20:23:01Z jcowan: nah, doesn't help at all 2016-05-11T20:24:00Z jcowan: okay, got past that stage, now being told "no main" 2016-05-11T20:24:11Z jcowan: I'll look at the scheme2c manual 2016-05-11T20:28:46Z mejja: It works and is faster than mit-scheme on the sum1 benchmark ;-) 2016-05-11T20:29:54Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T20:30:17Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2016-05-11T20:33:37Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T20:34:06Z wasamasa is looking forward to working with scheme2c 2016-05-11T20:34:10Z jcowan: mejja: How do I persuade the compiler that I am compiling a top level and to generate main? 2016-05-11T20:35:17Z mejja: a few demos in xlib/ hello etc. 2016-05-11T20:36:41Z wasamasa: http://emacsninja.com/posts/explorations-in-gui-programming-with-chicken-webkit.html 2016-05-11T20:36:42Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/jR37NAoxhG 2016-05-11T20:36:50Z wasamasa: one of these may very well be the ezd server written in scheme2c 2016-05-11T20:37:01Z wasamasa: so I'll see how hard it's to port 2016-05-11T20:43:33Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T20:48:29Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-11T20:48:30Z mokuso quit (Changing host) 2016-05-11T20:48:30Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-11T20:49:06Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-05-11T20:58:13Z phax joined #scheme 2016-05-11T20:59:15Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:00:12Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-05-11T21:03:03Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:05:17Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:06:05Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-11T21:09:00Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-11T21:09:05Z stephe_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:10:19Z stephe_ joined #scheme 2016-05-11T21:18:44Z neoncontrails quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T21:19:55Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-11T21:20:26Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-11T21:23:01Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:31:29Z badkins quit 2016-05-11T21:50:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-11T21:58:44Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:59:04Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2016-05-11T22:02:42Z jcowan: So my basic conclusion is that pure tree-walking interpreters are fairly thin on the ground: 38 of my 50 schemes have bytecode compilers or better. 2016-05-11T22:02:44Z mokuso quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:07:55Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-11T22:07:56Z mokuso quit (Changing host) 2016-05-11T22:07:56Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-11T22:10:33Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:13:19Z lucasem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-11T22:13:33Z mokuso quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:15:36Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-11T22:15:36Z mokuso quit (Changing host) 2016-05-11T22:15:36Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-11T22:17:03Z mumptai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T22:24:03Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:27:54Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-11T22:28:08Z pierpa` joined #scheme 2016-05-11T22:30:34Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:30:36Z turbofail2 joined #scheme 2016-05-11T22:33:24Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:36:37Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T22:41:41Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T22:42:29Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-11T22:44:14Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:45:52Z m0li joined #scheme 2016-05-11T23:10:20Z mokuso quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T23:12:52Z dTal_ joined #scheme 2016-05-11T23:13:22Z mejja_ joined #scheme 2016-05-11T23:13:48Z mejja quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T23:14:06Z mejja_ is now known as mejja 2016-05-11T23:14:51Z jorrakay quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T23:14:51Z nilern quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T23:14:51Z dTal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T23:14:55Z jorrakay_ joined #scheme 2016-05-11T23:19:30Z pierpa` is now known as pierpa 2016-05-11T23:20:18Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2016-05-12T09:34:35Z jackdaniel: for Scheme that is 2016-05-12T09:37:06Z xieyuheng quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160503215307]) 2016-05-12T09:38:00Z ecraven: jackdaniel: yes :) 2016-05-12T09:38:38Z ecraven: though it would be great if you make the sources for the diagram public, so people can update it as necessary 2016-05-12T09:40:18Z jackdaniel: they are public (in case of this common lisp diagram – part of the ecl repository) 2016-05-12T09:40:31Z ecraven: cool 2016-05-12T09:40:38Z jackdaniel: sec 2016-05-12T09:41:22Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/blob/develop/src/doc/new-doc/figures/all-hierarchy.svg 2016-05-12T09:41:22Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/z31TLXNIBA 2016-05-12T09:41:25Z jackdaniel: here 2016-05-12T09:41:37Z jackdaniel: (inkscape svg format) 2016-05-12T09:41:58Z jackdaniel: so it won't be rendered correctly on the browser I'm afraid 2016-05-12T09:42:15Z ecraven: jackdaniel: ah, I thought you used graphviz to automatically lay out the diagram 2016-05-12T09:42:30Z jackdaniel: I'm afraid it wouldn't be planar 2016-05-12T09:43:09Z C-Keen: I have recently learned about plantuml and despite being a java beast it is a life saver for creating diagrams, uml stuff and message sequence diagrams 2016-05-12T09:43:17Z C-Keen: (sorry for being off topic) 2016-05-12T09:43:21Z ecraven: C-Keen: I'm using it with org-mode, it works great! 2016-05-12T09:45:00Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-05-12T09:49:08Z mumptai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T09:53:39Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T09:55:38Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-12T09:59:57Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-12T10:03:25Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2016-05-12T10:04:03Z nalaginrut quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:05:07Z derekuser joined #scheme 2016-05-12T10:07:12Z ggole__ joined #scheme 2016-05-12T10:10:14Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:19:45Z User__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T10:20:13Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-12T10:23:29Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-12T10:23:32Z andrewvic quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-12T10:32:13Z ggole_ joined #scheme 2016-05-12T10:35:33Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:46:00Z ggole__ joined #scheme 2016-05-12T10:48:46Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-12T10:48:52Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:54:24Z ecraven: hm.. rhizome and rscheme are rather hard to actually build :-/ 2016-05-12T11:01:51Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-12T11:09:06Z wasamasa quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-05-12T11:15:24Z wasamasa joined #scheme 2016-05-12T11:15:24Z wasamasa quit (Changing host) 2016-05-12T11:15:24Z wasamasa joined #scheme 2016-05-12T11:27:50Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T11:28:30Z bogdanm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T11:29:24Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-05-12T11:38:04Z derekuser quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T11:39:07Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T11:40:27Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-05-12T11:43:28Z fugue joined #scheme 2016-05-12T11:44:00Z chishiki joined #scheme 2016-05-12T11:44:58Z bogdanm joined #scheme 2016-05-12T11:45:24Z xieyuheng joined #scheme 2016-05-12T11:58:52Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-12T12:17:14Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-12T12:27:30Z benregn joined #scheme 2016-05-12T12:27:36Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-12T12:41:52Z xoui joined #scheme 2016-05-12T12:53:31Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-12T12:55:01Z grettke quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-12T13:07:30Z benregn quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Otherwise I was going to ask how it differs from Kawa... 2016-05-12T18:51:37Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-12T18:52:16Z groovy2shoes: edw, it basically just amounts to changing (n x ...) in aux-lambda to (x ... n) and (v x ...) in aux-apply to (x ... v) -- that'll fix it 2016-05-12T18:52:42Z groovy2shoes: oh, and change `let` in loop to `letrec`, my bad 2016-05-12T18:53:10Z Kruppe joined #scheme 2016-05-12T18:57:11Z leppie: has anyone played with armpit? seems to be going for a long time and still maintained (and supporting a large number of dev boards) 2016-05-12T18:58:04Z vydd_ joined #scheme 2016-05-12T18:59:04Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-12T18:59:22Z vydd_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-12T19:00:43Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T19:02:14Z groovy2shoes: edw: fixed version, along with test case: https://www.refheap.com/119001 2016-05-12T19:02:26Z pepton2 joined #scheme 2016-05-12T19:02:30Z groovy2shoes: oh, and now with comments :) 2016-05-12T19:02:44Z jcowan: daviid: Like Cordelia Vorkosigan, I don't count any Scheme as dead until it's "dead and *rotted*". 2016-05-12T19:03:54Z ecraven: jcowan: good read? never heard of that before 2016-05-12T19:03:55Z groovy2shoes: that's a dumb policy 2016-05-12T19:04:15Z jcowan: Very good reads, IMO 2016-05-12T19:04:20Z jcowan: take them in pub order 2016-05-12T19:04:54Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: Remember my perspective: I have to focus on what existing Schemes do, without judging them as worthy or unworthy. 2016-05-12T19:05:04Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks, always looking for good books :) 2016-05-12T19:05:34Z jcowan: Originally, I thought I'd leave out "minor Schemes" (not to be confused with Minor Scheme) and went so far as to call R4RS "obsolete", which called down a shitstorm. 2016-05-12T19:05:36Z groovy2shoes: y'all did a good job with that in R7RS-small 2016-05-12T19:05:39Z groovy2shoes: /s 2016-05-12T19:05:43Z jcowan: Thanks 2016-05-12T19:06:12Z jcowan: So I leave it up to other people to decide which Schemes are important or unimportant, which completely depends on what they want to do with them and in what context. 2016-05-12T19:06:51Z groovy2shoes: I actually quite like how R7RS turned out, despite the fact that, e.g., the library system was quite unlike anything any Scheme already had 2016-05-12T19:07:05Z ecraven: jcowan: well, I'd say if it hasn't had any code changes in a few years, it seems dead 2016-05-12T19:07:09Z groovy2shoes: the small language, that is 2016-05-12T19:07:29Z groovy2shoes: haven't been following the large much, unfortunately 2016-05-12T19:07:30Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: I agree, except for some rather minor gripes 2016-05-12T19:07:53Z jcowan: Since most Schemes are developed by individuals, that policy doesn't really work: there was a looooooooooong delay before Gambit 4.0, and it was a huge change. 2016-05-12T19:07:56Z groovy2shoes: yeah, all my issues with it are extremely minor, to the point of bikeshedding, really 2016-05-12T19:08:09Z jcowan: In lots of cases, people are working right along but aren't releasing, either out of laziness or whatever reasons. 2016-05-12T19:08:12Z jcowan: Consider Chez, also 2016-05-12T19:08:31Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T19:08:47Z groovy2shoes: Chez *was* dead, outside of Cisco 2016-05-12T19:08:54Z groovy2shoes: nobody could even buy a license anymore 2016-05-12T19:08:59Z jcowan: Actually, the R7RS library is based on (but not 100% compatible with) the R6RS library. We just made sure that some things were built in and that we could add new library directives. 2016-05-12T19:09:04Z groovy2shoes: it's a zombie impl 2016-05-12T19:09:26Z ecraven: well, no reason they can't be revived, but for all intents and purposes, many schemes are "deadish" at least :) 2016-05-12T19:09:30Z groovy2shoes: rule of thumb for FOSS impls is: what's the activity in the repo look like? 2016-05-12T19:09:49Z jcowan: La mayyitan ma qadirun yatabaqqa sarmadi 2016-05-12T19:09:49Z jcowan: Fa idha yaji' al-shudhdhadh fa-l-maut qad yantahi. 2016-05-12T19:09:49Z jcowan: --Abdullah al-Hazred, Al-`Azif 2016-05-12T19:10:04Z groovy2shoes: yeah, I don't speak Terrorist 2016-05-12T19:10:08Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-12T19:10:13Z ecraven: hm.. not enough words I understand :-/ 2016-05-12T19:10:25Z jcowan: "That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even Death may die." 2016-05-12T19:11:05Z ecraven: ah, so it is maut in arabic? 2016-05-12T19:11:17Z groovy2shoes: I disagree... something that is eternally lying is indistinguishable from dead, therefore, for all intents and purposes, it is dead 2016-05-12T19:11:45Z groovy2shoes: it's like the halting problem 2016-05-12T19:11:54Z groovy2shoes: eventually, you've just gotta press Ctrl-C 2016-05-12T19:12:09Z C-Keen: you can argue about that with mr Lovecraft 2016-05-12T19:12:27Z groovy2shoes: unfortunately, Mr Lovecraft is eternally lying, so... 2016-05-12T19:12:56Z jcowan: He really is dead. But Chez and Gambit weren't. 2016-05-12T19:13:19Z C-Keen: "it's not resting, it's nailed to its stick!" 2016-05-12T19:13:30Z groovy2shoes: Chez was, and now it's not 2016-05-12T19:13:32Z groovy2shoes: that's different 2016-05-12T19:13:47Z edw: groovy2shoes: I tried that but both Chicken and Guile seems to strongly dislike the nested macros. 2016-05-12T19:14:14Z groovy2shoes: edw, hmm... I'll try it in guile and see what's up 2016-05-12T19:16:51Z groovy2shoes: edw, works fine for me in csi 2016-05-12T19:17:03Z edw: groovy2shoes: I mean, I tried something very similar: using an auxiliary macro. I found a mailing list post from last year. 2016-05-12T19:17:05Z groovy2shoes: my guile is old, though... 1.8.something... 2016-05-12T19:17:22Z edw: Hmm. OK. The post was re: 2.0+. 2016-05-12T19:17:33Z groovy2shoes: thinks that the () in (syntax-rules () ...) is invalid syntax... 2016-05-12T19:18:16Z C-Keen: why? 2016-05-12T19:19:02Z groovy2shoes: racket in r5rs mode (6.4), chicken (csi 4.10), and gauche (latest) all work fine 2016-05-12T19:19:25Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-12T19:19:53Z edw: OK, I'll take a close look at my versions that attempt to do the same thing. Thanks, groovy2shoes. 2016-05-12T19:20:06Z edw is now known as edw2 2016-05-12T19:20:48Z groovy2shoes: edw2, np :) 2016-05-12T19:21:13Z edw joined #scheme 2016-05-12T19:21:18Z edw2 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-12T19:22:03Z groovy2shoes: edw, the trick with recursive syntax-rules is to make sure your recursive call happens in an expression context... if you try to expand into, say, a list of formals for a lambda, it's not going to work unfortunately 2016-05-12T19:22:23Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-12T19:22:36Z groovy2shoes: the macro only gets expanded if it would otherwise be evaluated 2016-05-12T19:22:57Z groovy2shoes: (semantically, it gets expanded as part of evaluation, but most impls don't actually work that way...) 2016-05-12T19:23:20Z vydd_ joined #scheme 2016-05-12T19:23:44Z groovy2shoes: (works in MIT Scheme also) 2016-05-12T19:24:06Z groovy2shoes: now I'm out of Schemes on my work laptop lol 2016-05-12T19:25:18Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T19:26:15Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T19:30:08Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-12T19:30:27Z edw: groovy2shoes: Thanks for the insight into the vagaries of macroexpansion. This exercise -- seeing how far I can push Clojure-style syntactic structures into Scheme w/o changing the reader -- has led me to do some advanced head-scratching. 2016-05-12T19:30:46Z groovy2shoes: heheheh 2016-05-12T19:31:23Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-12T19:36:00Z edw: groovy2shoes: Actually, your implementation isn't working for me in Chicken. Here's my test code: https://www.refheap.com/119003 2016-05-12T19:37:16Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2016-05-12T19:37:16Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-12T19:37:16Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-12T19:38:07Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-12T19:40:15Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T19:43:47Z groovy2shoes: edw, I get 55 in Chicken... 2016-05-12T19:44:01Z groovy2shoes: what are you getting? 2016-05-12T19:50:16Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-12T19:50:46Z groovy2shoes: edw, are you using the first version I posted or the second? I accidentally b0rked the first one... params were backwards and it needed a letrec instead of let 2016-05-12T19:52:59Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T19:55:21Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-05-12T19:58:23Z edw: Ah,let me Command-R that tab. 2016-05-12T19:59:01Z edw: Same paste id? 2016-05-12T19:59:48Z groovy2shoes: it was this one: https://www.refheap.com/119001 2016-05-12T20:00:12Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T20:00:51Z edw: Ah, just found it. Thankfully(?) we're nearly the only ones using refheap. 2016-05-12T20:00:58Z groovy2shoes: heheh 2016-05-12T20:01:23Z edw: Boom, 55. Cool. 2016-05-12T20:01:55Z groovy2shoes: sorry 2016-05-12T20:02:05Z groovy2shoes: that's what I get for using shitty test cases lol 2016-05-12T20:02:22Z edw: No prob! I'm now off to talmudically sytudy your macros. Thanks again! 2016-05-12T20:03:28Z groovy2shoes: lol np :) 2016-05-12T20:11:24Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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'a) 2016-05-13T08:51:51Z z0d: $4 = #t 2016-05-13T08:51:51Z z0d: scheme@(guile-user) [7]> (symbol? 12) 2016-05-13T08:51:52Z z0d: $5 = #f 2016-05-13T08:52:12Z t4nk203: well im writing an expression 2016-05-13T08:53:26Z z0d: could you ellaborate on that, please? 2016-05-13T08:54:08Z t4nk203: yeah sorry, i'm writing an expression with some predefined conditions like (is-var?), (is-conj?), 2016-05-13T08:54:21Z t4nk203: im trying to add a symbol check to the (is-var?) section 2016-05-13T08:54:53Z t4nk203: http://pastebin.com/wtdiKrTS 2016-05-13T08:54:57Z t4nk203: you can see what im trying to do here 2016-05-13T08:55:16Z t4nk203: basically (check-boolean-expression '(var 123)) should return #f and (check-boolean-expression '(var x)) should return true 2016-05-13T08:55:46Z z0d: it reaturn #t, because you can 3 things in the first part of cond 2016-05-13T08:55:56Z z0d: [(is-var? v) 2016-05-13T08:55:56Z z0d: (symbol? v) 2016-05-13T08:55:56Z z0d: #t] 2016-05-13T08:56:18Z z0d: you should only have a clause (1st expression) and an action (2nd expression) 2016-05-13T08:56:42Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2016-05-13T08:57:12Z t4nk203: sorry I'm new to scheme, could you elaborate by what an action is? 2016-05-13T08:57:12Z z0d: this will always return true 2016-05-13T08:57:27Z z0d: the action here is (symbol? v) 2016-05-13T08:57:33Z z0d: and also #t 2016-05-13T08:57:51Z z0d: so, it will always return true, because that's the last expression you wrote there 2016-05-13T08:58:28Z z0d: what do you want to achieve, with the first part of cond? the 'is-var?' part 2016-05-13T08:59:45Z z0d: do you want to check conj/disj/neg only if is-var? and symbol? are true? 2016-05-13T09:00:31Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2016-05-13T09:00:31Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-13T09:00:31Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-13T09:00:43Z t4nk203: the is-var part is there to check if the parameter entered is a variable or not, e.g. (check-boolean-expression '(x)) would return false but (check-boolena-expression '(var x)) would return true 2016-05-13T09:03:36Z ecraven: has anyone here used tinyscheme? why would (read) not work if input is redirected? 2016-05-13T09:10:52Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T09:16:20Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-13T09:21:07Z ggole joined #scheme 2016-05-13T09:29:58Z vydd_ joined #scheme 2016-05-13T09:29:58Z vydd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T09:48:46Z t4nk203: yeah hmm i still can't figure it out 2016-05-13T09:51:37Z xieyuheng joined #scheme 2016-05-13T09:52:45Z leot quit (Quit: BBL) 2016-05-13T09:56:57Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2016-05-13T09:56:58Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-13T09:56:58Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-13T09:59:24Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-05-13T10:06:10Z t4nk203 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T10:17:29Z xieyuheng quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160503215307]) 2016-05-13T10:24:18Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-13T10:30:15Z m1dnight_: I'm having the weirdest error in R5RS. I have a function that takes in a list of lists (e.g., '((1 2) (3 4))) but the functino then fails on a car call because the value is not an mpair. 2016-05-13T10:30:32Z m1dnight_: I have debugged and it is an actual list.. 2016-05-13T10:30:54Z m1dnight_: If it were a functioncall shouldn't it be evaluated before it enters the function and throw the error then? 2016-05-13T10:32:44Z ecraven: m1dnight_: in racket, there is pair? and mpair?, they are not compatible 2016-05-13T10:34:19Z r0kc4t joined #scheme 2016-05-13T10:42:11Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-13T10:49:10Z xieyuheng joined #scheme 2016-05-13T10:51:15Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-05-13T10:55:46Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T10:55:54Z m1dnight_: I found the damn issue! :P 2016-05-13T10:56:15Z m1dnight_: All the files were using R5RS directive, and one file was using racket directive. Hence, it was an immutable list. 2016-05-13T10:58:13Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2016-05-13T10:58:17Z Kooda: In case some of you don’t know about it, we held a spring lisp jam a few days ago. Some of the entries (including mine) are in Scheme. :) https://itch.io/jam/spring-2016-lisp-game-jam/entries 2016-05-13T11:03:52Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T11:04:34Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-05-13T11:15:09Z noark9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T11:24:23Z _bogdanm_ joined #scheme 2016-05-13T11:27:42Z bogdanm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T11:30:30Z ^bogdanm^ joined #scheme 2016-05-13T11:31:07Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T11:34:27Z _bogdanm_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T11:36:18Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-13T11:43:36Z rszeno joined #scheme 2016-05-13T12:01:12Z ecraven: hm.. neither tinyscheme nor s9fes seem to have any way to get at the current time :-/ 2016-05-13T12:06:54Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-13T12:12:31Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-13T12:16:04Z dxtr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:16:12Z grettke joined 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infrastructure package and if i remember correctly include "scheme-to-c-compat" or some such... 2016-05-13T12:48:24Z ecraven: thanks, just fixed all unless and when in that, now QobiScheme 2016-05-13T12:48:58Z mejja: Scheme-To-C-compatibility.sc is in stalin/include 2016-05-13T12:49:18Z ecraven: QobiScheme.sc too 2016-05-13T12:49:33Z C-Keen: ecraven: you could also use chicken's stalin egg, that one works 2016-05-13T12:49:44Z ecraven: C-Keen: I am trying that 2016-05-13T12:49:49Z C-Keen: oh 2016-05-13T12:50:05Z ecraven: I want (clock-sample) and (c:clocks-per-second) 2016-05-13T12:50:12Z ecraven: those are defined in QobiScheme.sc 2016-05-13T12:50:16Z ecraven: not sure how to get them with chicken ;-/ 2016-05-13T12:50:28Z C-Keen: what do those return? 2016-05-13T12:50:44Z ecraven: well, actually, I just need something that returns the current time to sub-second precision 2016-05-13T12:51:01Z ecraven: to measure elapsed time 2016-05-13T12:51:04Z mejja: Why not read /proc/uptime then? 2016-05-13T12:51:22Z ecraven: mejja: wouldn't that have more overhead than clock() ? 2016-05-13T12:52:36Z mejja: So do it for all systems.. create a shell script that extracts the jiffies or nanosec out of /proc/timer_list 2016-05-13T12:55:39Z vydd_ joined #scheme 2016-05-13T12:58:50Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T13:01:46Z xieyuheng quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160503215307]) 2016-05-13T13:09:04Z developernotes joined #scheme 2016-05-13T13:13:54Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-13T13:18:51Z mejja: ecraven: paste in#chicken 2016-05-13T13:22:48Z ecraven: thank you 2016-05-13T13:41:06Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2016-05-13T13:41:07Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-13T13:41:07Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-13T13:50:13Z ^bogdanm^ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-13T13:50:31Z bogdanm joined #scheme 2016-05-13T13:57:42Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-13T13:58:36Z _bogdanm_ joined #scheme 2016-05-13T13:59:25Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by 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2016-05-14T05:31:58Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-14T06:35:32Z githogori quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T06:39:02Z ecraven: on a related note, why does vector->list and string->list take `start' and `end' parameters, but list->vector and list->string don't? 2016-05-14T06:52:17Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T06:52:50Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2016-05-14T07:06:58Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T07:30:28Z groovy2shoes: edw: nice! :) 2016-05-14T07:32:44Z turbofail left #scheme 2016-05-14T07:43:27Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T07:46:30Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-14T07:56:10Z cky quit (K-Lined) 2016-05-14T07:56:48Z cky joined #scheme 2016-05-14T08:12:28Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T08:18:46Z BigKitty joined #scheme 2016-05-14T08:19:11Z BigKitty left #scheme 2016-05-14T08:21:56Z BigKitty joined #scheme 2016-05-14T08:21:58Z BigKitty left #scheme 2016-05-14T08:23:10Z 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2016-05-14T09:23:47Z ecraven: does any Scheme implement floating-point numbers as tagged IEEE doubles (thus sacrificing a few bits of the mantissa)? 2016-05-14T09:23:53Z ecraven: making them non-IEEE in a way :) 2016-05-14T09:42:23Z pepton2 joined #scheme 2016-05-14T09:44:56Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-14T09:47:01Z andrewvic quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-14T10:02:34Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-14T10:31:10Z xieyuheng quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160503215307]) 2016-05-14T10:34:08Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-14T10:41:15Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-14T10:52:31Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2016-05-14T10:59:29Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-05-14T11:04:57Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T11:16:14Z Kruppe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T11:16:15Z Kruppe joined #scheme 2016-05-14T11:17:26Z xieyuheng joined #scheme 2016-05-14T11:23:31Z grublet joined #scheme 2016-05-14T11:37:22Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-14T11:53:56Z |2701 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(I know you could still offer it, but...) 2016-05-14T12:57:18Z qu1j0t3: ecraven: If you run benchmarks in parallel, the only timing metric you could use is consumed CPU, though... 2016-05-14T12:57:39Z qu1j0t3: ecraven: eh.. never mind. doublethinking. I can't think of a reason why not 2016-05-14T12:57:40Z ecraven: but shouldn't they not influence each other, if there is plenty of CPU? 2016-05-14T12:57:42Z qu1j0t3: right 2016-05-14T12:57:56Z qu1j0t3: i can't see why it wouldn't work... you could always compare with a single cpu run? 2016-05-14T12:57:58Z ecraven: I don't know enough about CPU affinity in default linux and things :-/ 2016-05-14T12:58:44Z qu1j0t3: try it and see :) 2016-05-14T12:58:57Z ecraven: yea, doing that now :) 2016-05-14T12:59:13Z qu1j0t3: hopefully the scheduler wouldn't do something as counterintuitive as move a busy process when there are idle cores 2016-05-14T12:59:23Z qu1j0t3 mutters but who knows 2016-05-14T12:59:31Z foof quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T12:59:39Z foof joined #scheme 2016-05-14T13:04:12Z ecraven: why does the grammar at the end of r7rs not show the alternate exponent letters (s, f, d, l)? 2016-05-14T13:11:53Z ggole joined #scheme 2016-05-14T13:12:21Z andrewvic quit (Ping 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C-x C-e? 2016-05-14T21:57:21Z z0d: (Geiser) 2016-05-14T22:26:09Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:31:36Z Flippers joined #scheme 2016-05-14T22:45:49Z Flippers is now known as Menche 2016-05-14T22:45:58Z Menche is now known as Flippers 2016-05-14T22:46:03Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:48:15Z turbopape quit (Quit: Quitte) 2016-05-14T22:55:34Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-14T23:04:00Z noethics joined #scheme 2016-05-14T23:04:40Z noethics: can anyone tell me what the syntax `1-` means on line 11 here: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/blob/master/examples/fact.ss 2016-05-14T23:09:27Z mejja: (- x 1) 2016-05-14T23:09:45Z noethics: thanks 2016-05-14T23:11:48Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-14T23:17:32Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-14T23:17:32Z mokuso quit (Changing host) 2016-05-14T23:17:32Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-14T23:19:05Z leppie: like sub1 2016-05-14T23:19:38Z leppie: personally I find that sytax horrible ;p 2016-05-14T23:20:28Z noethics: it is very unintuitive 2016-05-14T23:20:45Z xue quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T23:29:51Z pierpa: It's a function name. No special syntax involved. 2016-05-14T23:31:26Z fizzie: It's a bit of a special name, though, because at least R5RS doesn't allow for identifiers that start with a number. 2016-05-14T23:36:01Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I took a break from it to try to participate in the Lisp game jam (I could not finish in time). 2016-05-15T04:55:02Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-15T04:57:57Z aeth: The issue I ran into is that I couldn't find any good references on CPS via Google. 2016-05-15T04:58:38Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: Also, if you use an RSS browser, you can read Usenet groups from it with good spam filtering 2016-05-15T04:58:52Z jcowan: s/browser/reader 2016-05-15T04:59:09Z aeth: s/The issue I ran into/The issue I ran into with my Scheme/ 2016-05-15T04:59:14Z xieyuheng joined #scheme 2016-05-15T04:59:45Z pobivan joined #scheme 2016-05-15T05:00:17Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-15T05:00:46Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-15T05:13:09Z nanoz joined #scheme 2016-05-15T05:16:20Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-15T05:17:57Z rjnw joined #scheme 2016-05-15T05:27:53Z JoshS quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-15T05:29:30Z aeth: Based on my org file, it looks like I am almost exactly at the half way point of completion in my Scheme (no SRFIs, though). 2016-05-15T05:34:24Z tmtwd joined #scheme 2016-05-15T05:42:11Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-15T05:54:05Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-15T06:18:39Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2016-05-15T06:44:54Z jcowan: okay, kickoff sent to scheme-reports-wg2 and c.l.s 2016-05-15T06:58:39Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-15T06:59:23Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-15T07:02:19Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2016-05-15T07:06:14Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-15T07:24:56Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-15T07:34:06Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-15T07:54:17Z tax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-15T07:55:43Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-15T07:59:49Z rjnw quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-15T08:12:54Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-15T08:13:56Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-15T08:14:44Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-15T08:19:35Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-15T08:22:17Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-15T08:43:29Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-15T08:45:53Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-15T08:51:05Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-15T08:51:53Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2016-05-15T08:52:39Z narendraj9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-15T08:54:04Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2016-05-15T09:03:35Z bokr joined #scheme 2016-05-15T09:12:40Z z0d: where do I see the result of the form evaluated with C-x C-e in Geiser? 2016-05-15T09:21:16Z wasamasa: in the echo area? 2016-05-15T09:29:42Z z0d: yeah, I was expecting that. hmm. does something overwrite it? 2016-05-15T09:30:57Z z0d: the string "C-x C-e" sticks in the echo area 2016-05-15T09:33:18Z groovy2shoes: it doesn't hang out in the inferior scheme buffer? 2016-05-15T09:36:16Z z0d: nope. maybe it's something with my Emacs. tough C-x C-e works fine in SLIME 2016-05-15T09:40:37Z xieyuheng left #scheme 2016-05-15T09:40:54Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-15T09:50:16Z cmatei joined #scheme 2016-05-15T10:06:01Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2016-05-15T10:13:33Z pepton2 joined #scheme 2016-05-15T10:27:33Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-15T10:29:00Z aries_liuxueyang joined #scheme 2016-05-15T10:29:56Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Are you registered yet? 2016-05-15T20:09:05Z qu1j0t3: registered what 2016-05-15T20:09:44Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-15T20:13:53Z noethics joined #scheme 2016-05-15T20:14:19Z jcowan: A registered Scheme voter 2016-05-15T20:15:28Z qu1j0t3: will i get junk mail 2016-05-15T20:15:32Z mael-num joined #scheme 2016-05-15T20:16:47Z pjb joined #scheme 2016-05-15T20:18:10Z jcowan: Sure. 2016-05-15T20:19:07Z jcowan: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/scheme-reports-wg2/N2g2zn0lb_U <-- call for registration 2016-05-15T20:21:36Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-15T20:22:56Z cmatei joined #scheme 2016-05-15T20:26:28Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: email sent. let's see what happens 2016-05-15T20:26:39Z jcowan: ta 2016-05-15T20:35:44Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-15T20:35:50Z nowhereman joined #scheme 2016-05-15T20:39:49Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-15T20:49:03Z mael-num quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-15T20:53:49Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-15T20:54:48Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-15T20:57:16Z scarygelatin joined #scheme 2016-05-15T20:59:49Z rjnw quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-15T21:11:34Z noethics quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-15T21:11:58Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-15T21:18:40Z rudybot is now known as beautybot 2016-05-15T21:18:56Z beautybot is now known as rudybot 2016-05-15T21:26:47Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I downloaded the repo from git but still don't understand where the coding window is -- or really how to build the repo locally 2016-05-15T21:50:50Z roadrunneratwast: I could download dr racket and just go along with the class that way but i don't have a big screen so i was looking forward to ISICP. does this actually work? how? 2016-05-15T21:51:02Z wasamasa: what the heck is ISICP 2016-05-15T21:51:29Z roadrunneratwast: https://xuanji.appspot.com/isicp/1-1-elements.html 2016-05-15T21:51:48Z roadrunneratwast: abelson and sussman with a coding window supposedly 2016-05-15T21:56:09Z groovy2shoes: roadrunneratwast, install the TeXinfo version of SICP in Emacs. SICP in one window, inferior Scheme REPL in another. BAM! small screen + big learning ;) 2016-05-15T21:56:33Z roadrunneratwast: that's awesome 2016-05-15T21:56:56Z roadrunneratwast: i do have emacs but am not that proficient with it 2016-05-15T21:57:08Z groovy2shoes: me neither, but it'd be a good way to learn! 2016-05-15T21:57:13Z groovy2shoes: kill two birds with one stone ;) 2016-05-15T21:57:13Z roadrunneratwast: good point 2016-05-15T21:57:24Z roadrunneratwast: let me see if i can follow your instructions ... brb 2016-05-15T21:57:31Z groovy2shoes: you'll probably feel proficient *enough* just an hour or two in, anyway 2016-05-15T21:57:52Z pjb: Instead of emacs, to study sicp, you may use mit-scheme and its edwin editor (which is an emacs-like implemented in scheme). 2016-05-15T21:58:01Z pjb: This is what I'd do. 2016-05-15T21:58:12Z pjb: That said, good night everybody! 2016-05-15T21:58:13Z groovy2shoes: yeah, but it doesn't have SICP built in! 2016-05-15T21:58:16Z groovy2shoes: (does it?) 2016-05-15T21:58:17Z pjb quit (Quit: dodo) 2016-05-15T21:58:22Z groovy2shoes: well, fine 2016-05-15T21:58:37Z groovy2shoes: the Edwin for Windows won't open files 2016-05-15T21:58:45Z groovy2shoes: it just opens a blank buffer 2016-05-15T21:58:56Z groovy2shoes: it'll save them fine, interestingly enough 2016-05-15T22:01:26Z roadrunneratwast: what scheme editor do you recommend for emacs? 2016-05-15T22:01:33Z roadrunneratwast: or just use the inbuilt lisp editor 2016-05-15T22:01:39Z wasamasa: emacs is a text editor 2016-05-15T22:01:40Z roadrunneratwast: wait a second ... what am i saying ... 2016-05-15T22:01:41Z wasamasa: just use it, duh 2016-05-15T22:01:57Z roadrunneratwast: emacs has a programming interface, though 2016-05-15T22:02:05Z roadrunneratwast: groovy2shoes mentioned a repl 2016-05-15T22:02:08Z wasamasa: so has your operating system 2016-05-15T22:02:20Z wasamasa: it doesn't matter much if all you want to do is using it 2016-05-15T22:03:44Z jcowan: Emacs is an OS for editors 2016-05-15T22:10:01Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-15T22:17:32Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2016-05-15T22:23:53Z roadrunneratwast: ok . the interactive-lisp-mode in emacs is fine for now. any ideas how to build or acquire the texinfo/latex for emacs on a win32 machine. can i do this without installing cygwin? 2016-05-15T22:25:17Z wasamasa: just download a pdf, duh 2016-05-15T22:25:32Z roadrunneratwast: pdf, duh, does not load into emacs 2016-05-15T22:25:43Z wasamasa: for that one has pdf viewers, yes 2016-05-15T22:25:45Z roadrunneratwast: but i can extract the text, duh 2016-05-15T22:26:29Z wasamasa: also, docview does pdf, provided you have the right executables 2016-05-15T22:26:34Z wasamasa: anyways, emacs is a subpar choice on windows 2016-05-15T22:26:44Z roadrunneratwast: what do you recommend? 2016-05-15T22:26:52Z wasamasa: anything else, really 2016-05-15T22:27:02Z wasamasa: all you need is an editor and a repl 2016-05-15T22:27:09Z roadrunneratwast: well. it's nice to have both in one window 2016-05-15T22:27:16Z roadrunneratwast: for a computer with a small screen 2016-05-15T22:27:25Z wasamasa: well, not really, especially not if the integration is terrible 2016-05-15T22:27:31Z wasamasa: for that one got virtual desktops 2016-05-15T22:27:50Z wasamasa: didn't that feature land into windows recently? 2016-05-15T22:28:43Z roadrunneratwast: i am avoiding the update 2016-05-15T22:28:46Z wasamasa: lol 2016-05-15T22:28:48Z z0d: roadrunneratwast: I use Geiser for Emacs 2016-05-15T22:28:55Z wasamasa: anyway, if you're serious about this, use linux for programming 2016-05-15T22:29:06Z wasamasa: it's an order of magnitude nicer for that task 2016-05-15T22:29:22Z z0d: or, use a virtual machine 2016-05-15T22:29:33Z wasamasa: that's hardly as nice :D 2016-05-15T22:29:49Z z0d: yeah, but still better than Windows 2016-05-15T22:30:36Z roadrunneratwast: yeah. i have a virtual machine in here. ok. 2016-05-15T22:30:38Z roadrunneratwast: thanks 2016-05-15T22:32:24Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-15T22:32:59Z qu1j0t3: wasamasa: +1 2016-05-15T22:35:38Z Earnestly joined #scheme 2016-05-15T22:36:36Z groovy2shoes: there's always cygwin 2016-05-15T22:37:22Z z0d: I'd rather use a VM 2016-05-15T22:37:26Z groovy2shoes: start X full screen 2016-05-15T22:37:41Z groovy2shoes: run awesome or dwm 2016-05-15T22:37:43Z groovy2shoes: good to go 2016-05-15T22:39:16Z qu1j0t3: groovy2shoes: cygwin is a great example of how linux is more ergonomic 2016-05-15T22:40:14Z groovy2shoes: yup 2016-05-15T22:40:22Z groovy2shoes: I couldn't possibly use Windows at work without it 2016-05-15T22:40:44Z groovy2shoes: I'd just march into IT and demand they install Linux lol 2016-05-15T22:41:30Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-15T22:43:19Z Crashlog quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-15T22:44:15Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-15T22:44:43Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-15T22:46:59Z vydd_ joined #scheme 2016-05-15T22:49:06Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-15T22:50:47Z roadrunneratwast quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-15T22:51:20Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-15T22:55:46Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2016-05-15T22:55:46Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-15T22:55:46Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-15T22:59:52Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2016-05-15T23:03:00Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-15T23:05:47Z Flippers joined #scheme 2016-05-15T23:26:18Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-15T23:32:14Z karswell` joined #scheme 2016-05-15T23:33:04Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-15T23:43:55Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2016-05-15T23:45:27Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-16T00:06:23Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2016-05-16T00:06:43Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-05-16T00:08:04Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-16T00:10:29Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-16T00:30:40Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-16T00:31:06Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-16T00:36:05Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-16T00:43:33Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-16T00:48:03Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-16T00:53:52Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-16T00:57:40Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-16T01:01:52Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-16T01:17:32Z zacts: does PLAI make any interpreter implementations? 2016-05-16T01:17:43Z zacts: or does it just explore languages from a more general standpoint? 2016-05-16T01:26:49Z m1dnight_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-16T01:28:12Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-16T01:29:16Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-16T01:29:31Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2016-05-16T01:32:05Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-16T01:32:47Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-16T01:40:00Z m1dnight_ joined #scheme 2016-05-16T01:41:59Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-16T01:45:06Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-16T01:48:28Z asumu: zacts: yes, you build up an interpreter through the course of the book with various features. 2016-05-16T01:58:38Z Fare joined #scheme 2016-05-16T01:59:42Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-16T02:00:07Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-16T02:00:09Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-16T02:00:55Z zacts: oh nice nice 2016-05-16T02:00:57Z zacts: thanks 2016-05-16T02:01:21Z zacts: asumu: what prereq's of knowledge is required to complete the book? 2016-05-16T02:01:26Z zacts: is HTDP 2nd edition enough? 2016-05-16T02:09:05Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-16T02:14:58Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-16T02:17:02Z asumu: zacts: page 4 of the 1st edition says what the authors expect the prereqs to be. Probably you can read it with just htdp2e, but exposure to other languages likely helps. 2016-05-16T02:17:31Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-16T02:17:39Z asumu: s/authors/author/ 2016-05-16T02:19:57Z zacts: ah ok cool 2016-05-16T02:20:00Z zacts: thanks 2016-05-16T02:29:11Z vydd_ joined #scheme 2016-05-16T02:29:17Z vydd_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-16T02:30:26Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2016-05-16T02:32:54Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-16T02:34:34Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-16T02:36:24Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2016-05-16T02:37:11Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-16T02:38:38Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-16T02:39:05Z tmtwd joined #scheme 2016-05-16T02:42:08Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-16T02:46:39Z amgarching joined #scheme 2016-05-16T02:49:54Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-16T02:52:35Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-16T03:00:28Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-16T03:03:45Z 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might have some luck asking about Common Lisp in #lisp 2016-05-16T10:54:14Z BigKitty: I will do it meow. 2016-05-16T10:54:34Z groovy2shoes: whoa 2016-05-16T10:54:40Z groovy2shoes: you really *are* just a big kitty! 2016-05-16T10:55:24Z BigKitty: Of course i am. 2016-05-16T10:55:36Z groovy2shoes: up until now, I thought you were just some dude pretending to be a cat! I apologize, but please try to see it from my perspective: there are no cats on the Internet! color me wrong! 2016-05-16T11:00:08Z BigKitty: (=^ェ^=)ノ.You can think of me as a cat can speak. 2016-05-16T11:02:14Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-16T11:02:36Z groovy2shoes: oh, my cats speak all the time 2016-05-16T11:02:47Z groovy2shoes: I have no idea what the hell they're saying, but that doesn't stop them! 2016-05-16T11:05:27Z manumanumanu: BigKitty: is it common for cats to irc as root? 2016-05-16T11:05:30Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-16T11:07:01Z manumanumanu: BigKitty: thanks for the laugh of the day, anyway :D 2016-05-16T11:12:31Z BigKitty: Haha ^^ 2016-05-16T11:12:42Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-16T11:13:12Z BigKitty: thank you groovy2shoes some people provided me instruction on #lisp. 2016-05-16T11:25:09Z BigKitty left #scheme 2016-05-16T11:29:37Z manumanumanu: Hey! I see r7rs-large has a proposal for processes. That is currently like the main thing that stops me from writing portable scheme. Anyone knows why it is so simple? Is it so that it is easy to have it running on different platforms? 2016-05-16T11:31:09Z ggole joined #scheme 2016-05-16T11:37:09Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2016-05-16T11:37:57Z manumanumanu: I mean, why not provide something advanced like subprocess from racket and some convenience methods around it? 2016-05-16T11:39:45Z igam joined #scheme 2016-05-16T11:40:30Z wasamasa: I'd figure because not everything is posix 2016-05-16T11:41:19Z manumanumanu: yeah, that's what I thought. 2016-05-16T11:42:28Z vydd_ joined #scheme 2016-05-16T11:45:35Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-16T11:52:58Z kuribas joined #scheme 2016-05-16T11:54:45Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-16T11:55:25Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-16T11:57:24Z mokuso quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-16T12:06:15Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-16T12:38:47Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2016-05-16T12:39:05Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-16T12:39:07Z amgarching joined #scheme 2016-05-16T12:48:42Z groovy2shoes: manumanumanu, I'm pretty sure there's still time to change it for R7RS-large 2016-05-16T12:49:10Z groovy2shoes: manumanumanu, unless they've somehow twisted subprocess functionality into falling under "data structures" 2016-05-16T12:51:15Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-16T12:51:34Z |2701 quit (Changing host) 2016-05-16T12:51:34Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-16T12:51:34Z |2701 quit (Changing host) 2016-05-16T12:51:34Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-16T12:52:09Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-16T12:53:45Z Naraka quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2016-05-16T13:09:02Z Naraka joined #scheme 2016-05-16T13:10:06Z Naraka quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-16T13:10:53Z Naraka joined #scheme 2016-05-16T13:17:29Z manumanumanu: groovy2shoes: I am no programmer, I am but a mere classical musician. First of all, I don't really care that much, and second of all: I have no idea what it means to have a language feature that is portable across operative systems. 2016-05-16T13:19:44Z manumanumanu: but, getting a process id would be nice, where applicable :) 2016-05-16T13:22:12Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-16T13:28:03Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-16T13:29:32Z groovy2shoes: manumanumanu, looks like jcowan is the author of that proposal, so I'd suggest letting him know what features you'd like to see in a proposal if possible, and see if he can fit it into his existing proposal 2016-05-16T13:30:13Z groovy2shoes: he's not here right now, but you can find him on the R7RS WG2 google group or on usenet comp.lang.scheme 2016-05-16T13:32:45Z mael-num joined #scheme 2016-05-16T13:34:14Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-16T13:46:44Z xoui joined #scheme 2016-05-16T13:50:17Z rjnw joined #scheme 2016-05-16T13:57:42Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-16T13:58:01Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-16T13:58:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-16T13:59:23Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2016-05-16T14:03:51Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-16T14:05:16Z grettke quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-16T14:05:40Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-16T14:13:02Z lritter joined #scheme 2016-05-16T14:19:00Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-16T14:22:57Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-05-16T14:48:42Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-16T14:55:49Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2016-05-16T14:55:49Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-16T14:55:49Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-16T14:56:13Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-16T14:57:06Z badkins_ is now known as badkins 2016-05-16T14:57:19Z datagrok_ is now known as datagrok 2016-05-16T14:58:14Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - 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We were speculating why it was so simple. I understand that not every platform is posix, but are there any other reasons not to look at the rather powerful implementations of either chicken or racket? 2016-05-16T17:48:15Z manumanumanu: as it is now, most scheme implementations will probably have to implement their own to get something as basal as PID. 2016-05-16T17:49:36Z manumanumanu: or atleast, so I understood the document 2016-05-16T17:50:30Z manumanumanu: Why not have a powerful subprocess library, like that of Racket, and then implement simpler things on top of it? 2016-05-16T17:53:08Z manumanumanu: Now, I said previously that I am but a mere classical musician. I have no idea what it is to write software that is portable between architechtures. 2016-05-16T17:53:42Z manumanumanu: My own software only runs on ubuntu and arch linux, and only on 64bit intel and ARM. 2016-05-16T17:54:16Z groovy2shoes: seems like if nothing else, it could be a good use for cond-expand 2016-05-16T17:54:56Z groovy2shoes: have a feature called 'process-identifiers or something if the implementation supports it, which they *should* if the target platform supports it 2016-05-16T17:56:55Z jcowan: I think I extracted the process-related bits from a larger proposal and plonked them there till it was time to look at them again, probably for the Green Edition 2016-05-16T17:57:45Z jcowan: The whole question of a Posix API is very vexed. Quite apart from the annoying existence of Windows (which may be less of a problem in a few years), the trouble is that Posix is too big and it is not obvious how to subset it. 2016-05-16T17:57:56Z jcowan: 1113 APIs is huuuuuuuuuge 2016-05-16T17:58:33Z manumanumanu: indeed. 2016-05-16T17:58:36Z jcowan: correction, 1191 2016-05-16T17:59:03Z pobivan joined #scheme 2016-05-16T17:59:09Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-16T17:59:24Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-16T17:59:33Z mael-num joined #scheme 2016-05-16T17:59:59Z jcowan: My very rough Posix proposal is based on the intersection of Posix and various lists of system calls, on the grounds that you can build anything you want on top of those. 2016-05-16T18:00:21Z jcowan: but that doesn't help with Posix facade interfaces like getpwuid 2016-05-16T18:01:00Z jcowan: which may read /etc/passwd and then again it may not 2016-05-16T18:01:11Z manumanumanu: I liked the posix proposal. I couldn't find anything I missed. I was just a bit worried about the weak process ports proposal. You cleared that though. 2016-05-16T18:01:11Z mdg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-16T18:01:47Z mdg joined #scheme 2016-05-16T18:01:51Z manumanumanu: but I rarely go down to actuall system calls. That is scary territory 2016-05-16T18:02:31Z woona quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-16T18:04:43Z jcowan: Well, that *is* system call territory, precisely 2016-05-16T18:04:58Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, what we need is inline assembly ¬_¬ 2016-05-16T18:04:59Z jcowan: and there are still bloody 200 of them 2016-05-16T18:05:39Z leppie joined #scheme 2016-05-16T18:06:20Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2016-05-16T18:06:32Z manumanumanu: well, running another program and communicating is a more common beast than running mq_setattr 2016-05-16T18:06:41Z manumanumanu: communicating with it* 2016-05-16T18:08:09Z manumanumanu: I am no programmer, and the terminology in engilsh is deep water for me, sorry. 2016-05-16T18:09:11Z woona joined #scheme 2016-05-16T18:09:50Z fhmgufs joined #scheme 2016-05-16T18:11:27Z jcowan: np, living in nyc gives lots of practice at deciphering 2016-05-16T18:14:15Z manumanumanu: well, probably not my finno-germanic variety :D 2016-05-16T18:14:43Z manumanumanu: thanks for the reply 2016-05-16T18:16:37Z jcowan: American English is a lingua irlandese in bocca tedesca 2016-05-16T18:17:26Z jcowan: and here in NYC people speak many languages, all of them in English 2016-05-16T18:17:30Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2016-05-16T18:17:36Z manumanumanu: and for that I blame hollywood. 2016-05-16T18:17:40Z groovy2shoes: heheheh 2016-05-16T18:18:15Z manumanumanu: I learned english by watching Eddie Murphy. 2016-05-16T18:18:19Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-16T18:18:57Z jcowan: Nope, not guilty this time. It's because almost all Americans (Africans excepted) passed through a few immigration points in which their foreign accents mixed with other foreign accents, resulting in one big mess. 2016-05-16T18:19:33Z groovy2shoes: more like lingua francesa in bocca tedesca 2016-05-16T18:19:52Z groovy2shoes: damn Normans! 2016-05-16T18:20:06Z groovy2shoes: gimme my Saxon back! 2016-05-16T18:20:08Z jshjsh joined #scheme 2016-05-16T18:20:29Z groovy2shoes: (and my seax while you're at it ;)) 2016-05-16T18:21:03Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: Attacking Norman knights with a pair of scissors, however sharp, isn't going to work. 2016-05-16T18:21:11Z nckx joined #scheme 2016-05-16T18:21:12Z jcowan: Anyway, I meant American English specifically 2016-05-16T18:21:19Z groovy2shoes: actually, French had the same problem 2016-05-16T18:22:01Z groovy2shoes: mostly spoke Gaulish, except the Aquitanians in the southwest who spoke Basque or something very closely related to Basque 2016-05-16T18:22:08Z jcowan nods. 2016-05-16T18:22:14Z groovy2shoes: then the Romans move in and we wind up with Gallo-Latin 2016-05-16T18:22:21Z jcowan: For whatever reasons the transition from Gaulish to (low) Latin was pretty easy 2016-05-16T18:22:24Z groovy2shoes: then the Franks move in and we wind up with Old French 2016-05-16T18:22:33Z jcowan: didn't leave many traces behind 2016-05-16T18:22:36Z groovy2shoes: just one hell of a bastard of a language 2016-05-16T18:22:59Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-16T18:23:18Z groovy2shoes: well, it's hypothesized that the Celtic branch and the Italic branch stem from a common ancestor, proto-Italo-Celtic (or proto-Celtitalic depending on who you ask) 2016-05-16T18:24:10Z jcowan: Yes, but that was looooooooooong ago 2016-05-16T18:24:23Z groovy2shoes: of course, we have good reason to believe that the vast majority of languages spoken today are bastards lol, given that the current ethnic inhabitants of a region are rarely indigenous, if you go back far enough 2016-05-16T18:24:42Z jcowan: Actually, there's a lot of remarkable counterevidence. 2016-05-16T18:24:59Z jcowan: Mexican Spanish is distinctive, but has (beyond proper names) no influence whatever from any Native language. 2016-05-16T18:25:24Z groovy2shoes: there are plenty of Nahuatl words in Mexican Spanish 2016-05-16T18:25:41Z groovy2shoes: though I do see your point, and that's interesting 2016-05-16T18:25:50Z groovy2shoes: I don't know how it is I never thought about that before 2016-05-16T18:25:56Z jcowan: Vocabulary for specifically Mexican things, yes. No phonological influence, no morphological influence, no syntactic influence. 2016-05-16T18:26:18Z jcowan: about the same impact Spanish has had upon English, even in the Southwestern US 2016-05-16T18:27:15Z jcowan: And the lexical words are often semantically narrowed, as Sp. _sombrero_ 'hat' > Eng. _sombrero_ 'traditional Mexican hat'. 2016-05-16T18:27:19Z groovy2shoes: but then we look at, for example, the Indic languages, or the Germanic languages, or the Romance languages, or even Greek, and there's a TON of evidence that they culturally intermixed with the previous inhabitants of the respective regions 2016-05-16T18:27:44Z mejja: rudybot: I am Cornholio i need TP for my BUNGHOLE!! 2016-05-16T18:27:46Z rudybot: mejja: and the episode where Cornholio gets deported feels incredibly contemporary now 2016-05-16T18:28:02Z groovy2shoes: (Germanic is especially interesting to me, given how lately it's attested compared to the other IE languages, then quickly spread and quickly diverged... but the most interesting bit is how it sort of came out of nowhere!) 2016-05-16T18:28:43Z groovy2shoes: damn, rudybot 2016-05-16T18:28:47Z groovy2shoes: so salient 2016-05-16T18:28:47Z groovy2shoes: so apropos 2016-05-16T18:29:02Z groovy2shoes: *this* is why people use Lisps for AI! 2016-05-16T18:31:17Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-05-16T18:33:29Z jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_French#Effect_of_substrate_and_superstrate_languages <-- most of the things listed here are now rejected by Romance specialists as evidence of substrate/superstrate 2016-05-16T18:33:29Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/4GrFDNy5c5 2016-05-16T18:33:38Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, anyway, I feel gypped, because if I spoke "Modern Anglisc" instead of "Modern English", then I'd likely have some kind of mutual intelligibility with, e.g., modern Dutch, Afrikaans, maybe even German, etc. 2016-05-16T18:33:45Z jcowan nods. 2016-05-16T18:34:28Z groovy2shoes: you'd think with all the massive influence from French, I'd be able to at least read French, and, well, I sorta can... very slowly, and likely only because I've studied French a bit in the past 2016-05-16T18:34:34Z jcowan: "Uncleftish Beholding" 2016-05-16T18:34:56Z jcowan: French gets easier as you go on, whereas German gets harder as you go on 2016-05-16T18:35:04Z groovy2shoes: and there's a *lot* of guesswork and sometimes skipping involved heheh 2016-05-16T18:35:23Z jcowan: like Feynman saying "consequentamente" in Portuguese because he can't remember the basic word for 'but'. 2016-05-16T18:35:33Z groovy2shoes: ah, sure, but would that still be the case if we spoke Anglisc instead of English? 2016-05-16T18:35:47Z jcowan: http://languagehat.com/uncleftish-beholding/#comment-948026 2016-05-16T18:36:01Z jcowan: shows a couple of Middle English passages where I've updated all but the word-hoard 2016-05-16T18:37:25Z jcowan: which a Swede versed in English had no trouble with, even without the terms in brackets 2016-05-16T18:41:32Z groovy2shoes: missed *devils* 2016-05-16T18:41:37Z groovy2shoes: should be italicized :p 2016-05-16T18:41:46Z groovy2shoes: but this is awesome 2016-05-16T18:42:16Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-16T18:42:33Z fhmgufs quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-16T18:43:01Z groovy2shoes: tak så mycket! 2016-05-16T18:43:49Z jcowan: OE deofol, borrowed from Latin not French 2016-05-16T18:43:57Z Menche is now known as MenchE 2016-05-16T18:44:02Z groovy2shoes: huh 2016-05-16T18:44:06Z groovy2shoes: hmm 2016-05-16T18:44:30Z groovy2shoes: and clearly borrowed before the Grimm shift 2016-05-16T18:44:56Z groovy2shoes: (s) 2016-05-16T18:45:58Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, you seem pretty comfortable with OE... how did you learn? I've been trying to learn on and off for quite some time now, but the lack of resources makes it tough 2016-05-16T18:46:15Z groovy2shoes: pretty much everything I know I've learned by studying Beowulf side-by-side with a translation 2016-05-16T18:46:20Z jcowan: Never really did learn, just learned a lot of etymology and know how to use a dictionary and grammar. 2016-05-16T18:46:34Z jcowan: That's about the best anyone can do 2016-05-16T18:46:38Z groovy2shoes: are there good OE dictionaries and grammars available? 2016-05-16T18:47:12Z groovy2shoes: I know I've found an online dictionary, but I'd rather have one in hardcopy if you know of any in book-form 2016-05-16T18:47:54Z jcowan: Bosworth-Toller is still classic, though of course not entirely up to date 2016-05-16T18:47:55Z groovy2shoes: part of what makes it hard is not having easy access to the rules and such, like for ablaut, for example 2016-05-16T18:48:41Z jcowan: and Sievers for grammar 2016-05-16T18:48:47Z jcowan: both available online 2016-05-16T18:49:02Z groovy2shoes: awesome, thanks 2016-05-16T18:49:19Z jcowan: Ablaut is as dead in OE as in ModE, has to be learned by heart just like sing/sang/sung 2016-05-16T18:49:41Z jcowan: Fortunately much of it is still the same, unfortunately many strong verbs have gone weak (and a very few the other way about, like dig) 2016-05-16T18:50:41Z mael-num left #scheme 2016-05-16T18:50:51Z groovy2shoes: I'm also a practictioner of the fyrn sidu, and, while it's not a requirement, I feel a desire to verse myself in the language 2016-05-16T18:51:52Z ggole quit 2016-05-16T19:00:35Z jcowan mumbles a hocus-pocus (< Latin _hoc est corpus [Domini]) over groovy2shoes and shakes a stick filled with water on him 2016-05-16T19:00:50Z groovy2shoes: lol 2016-05-16T19:01:20Z groovy2shoes: shouldn't you be shaking a stick filled with communion wafers at me? :p 2016-05-16T19:02:26Z jcowan: perhaps 2016-05-16T19:02:29Z jcowan: that reminds me of a story 2016-05-16T19:02:34Z jcowan: do you know what an eruv is? 2016-05-16T19:03:06Z groovy2shoes: no 2016-05-16T19:04:31Z jcowan: a boundary wall (nowadays often just a wire supported by posts) surrounding a Jewish community that makes it permissible, within the bounds of the eruv, for an Orthodox Jew to travel further than would otherwise be permissible on the Sabbath. 2016-05-16T19:05:03Z jshjsh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-16T19:05:29Z jcowan: So at a Talmudic study group, two men who are study partners are talking. "By the way, my nephew is having his bris [circumcision] next week, and, well, I'd appreciate it if ..." 2016-05-16T19:05:47Z jcowan: The other interrupts, "Unfortunately, I'm not Jewish." 2016-05-16T19:06:47Z jcowan: "You're not? You wear the yarmulke, you have the fringes [of his beard], you keep the commandments. And eight months ago we studied the Talmud passage that says there is a curse on a Gentile who keeps the Jewish commandments!" 2016-05-16T19:07:07Z jcowan: His partner smiles. "Simple. Every Sabbath I walk more than two thousand paces." 2016-05-16T19:07:26Z jcowan: "But - but - but - But everyone does that! There's an eruv around the city!" 2016-05-16T19:07:41Z jcowan: The non-Jew smiles even more widely. "Ah, but I don't accept that eruv!" 2016-05-16T19:10:43Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-16T19:10:58Z groovy2shoes: lol 2016-05-16T19:11:59Z C-Keen does not get it 2016-05-16T19:14:09Z jcowan: If he does not accept the eruv (and they are often controversial, with more strict Jews considering that a "wall" made mostly of air violates the reasonable understanding of a wall", 2016-05-16T19:14:16Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-16T19:14:46Z jcowan: ) then he is violating the commandments, but it's irrelevant since they don't actually apply to him as a non-Jew. 2016-05-16T19:15:44Z jcowan: So then the curse doesn't fall on him. But if he had accepted the eruv, the commandments would go unviolated and the curse would apply. 2016-05-16T19:15:51Z jcowan: (Some say this particular curse is self-executing.) 2016-05-16T19:16:14Z C-Keen: ah 2016-05-16T19:16:34Z jcowan: (As in, who would put up with all these nit-picky restrictions if they weren't Jewish?) 2016-05-16T19:17:06Z jcowan: So the status of a non-Jew as cursed or not depends on his opinion on details of Jewish law. 2016-05-16T19:17:43Z C-Keen: I clearly see Joseph Heller's inspiration for catch-22 2016-05-16T19:17:50Z jcowan: You betcha. 2016-05-16T19:18:20Z turtlemanMobile joined #scheme 2016-05-16T19:19:01Z jcowan: see also http://ejewishphilanthropy.com/talmudic-logic/ for a more benign version 2016-05-16T19:24:06Z C-Keen: heh 2016-05-16T19:24:45Z jcowan: Or to put it another way, he is not cursed if he holds conservative Orthodox opinions, cursed if he holds somewhat more lax opinions 2016-05-16T19:29:33Z amgarching quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-16T19:29:57Z ecraven: jcowan: hwaet :) new benchmarks up, including stalin 2016-05-16T19:30:11Z ecraven: the github url should be permanent now 2016-05-16T19:30:25Z jcowan: What ho, bird of well-omen! Glad am I to hear it. 2016-05-16T19:34:51Z jcowan: ecraven: Where's the output now? 2016-05-16T19:35:14Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2016-05-16T19:35:29Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-16T19:37:05Z wingo: ecraven: why did you remove guile 2.1? /me curious :) 2016-05-16T19:37:53Z keemyb quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-16T19:38:22Z wingo: impressive that you got stalin to run 2016-05-16T19:38:50Z eatonphil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-16T19:39:11Z mejja: Yes, but the timings stalin can't be right. 2016-05-16T19:41:53Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-16T19:42:19Z turtleman joined #scheme 2016-05-16T19:42:35Z turtlemanMobile quit (Quit: AtomicIRC: The nuclear option.) 2016-05-16T19:43:33Z jcowan: ecraven: Also, to get syntax-case in Gambit, use "gsc -:s" (or "gsi -:s" for the interpreter) 2016-05-16T19:43:47Z ecraven: wingo: not on purpose, it just doesn't run by default 2016-05-16T19:43:49Z ecraven: I'll add it in 2016-05-16T19:43:59Z ecraven: jcowan: I think I did that, but maybe I forgot again 2016-05-16T19:44:10Z ecraven: jcowan: http://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html I think 2016-05-16T19:44:19Z ecraven: I'll update that every now and then 2016-05-16T19:44:33Z wingo: ecraven: cool, thanks! 2016-05-16T19:44:39Z ecraven: wingo: stalin is in fact chicken-stalin 2016-05-16T19:44:58Z wingo: we need to get a 2.2.0 release soon; probably a couple prereleases before that tho 2016-05-16T19:45:00Z ecraven: mejja: you are very welcome to explain to me how to properly run stalin to get better results. I too was surprised 2016-05-16T19:50:56Z amgarching joined #scheme 2016-05-16T19:52:19Z jcowan: ecraven: you can keep picrin more or less happy by predefining forward references like this: (define bar #f) (define (foo x) (bar (x)) (define (bar x) (- x)) 2016-05-16T19:52:33Z jcowan: the second definition of bar provokes a warning, but both foo and bar are now definied correctly 2016-05-16T19:56:20Z keemyb joined #scheme 2016-05-16T19:56:59Z groovy2shoes: POLL: How do y'all feel about #t and #f having special reader syntax? Do you prefer that? Would you prefer if `true` and `false` as identifiers evaluated to the Boolean constants instead (where '|true| and '|false| are still symbols)? Or do you prefer "classic Lisp" style with T and NIL? Something else entirely? 2016-05-16T19:57:00Z mejja: I dont find any optimazations flags in ./bench for the scheme to c compilers. Doesn't gambit need -O3 passed to it? 2016-05-16T20:00:51Z MenchE quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-16T20:01:47Z mejja: ecraven: you run bigloo with -O6 but Gambit without -O whats up with that? 2016-05-16T20:02:26Z mejja: stalin also needs -d otherwise it will generate floats (should use doubles) 2016-05-16T20:03:56Z jcowan: I prefer classic Scheme syntax. Note that R7RS also requires #true and #false to work. 2016-05-16T20:04:51Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, what do you mean by "classic Scheme"? also, do you prefer #true/#false to #t/#f? vice versa? no preference? 2016-05-16T20:04:53Z jcowan: I think it's unSchemely for what looks like an identifier to be a literal 2016-05-16T20:04:56Z jcowan: I mean #t and #f 2016-05-16T20:05:10Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-16T20:05:12Z groovy2shoes: I don't mean in reference to Scheme necessarily 2016-05-16T20:05:24Z groovy2shoes: but in another Lisp, for example 2016-05-16T20:05:38Z keemyb quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-05-16T20:05:42Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-16T20:06:26Z groovy2shoes: I ask because I'm really on the fence about it... on the one hand, they're not identifiers, but on the other hand, it's an extra keystroke and how often does anyone name a variable "true" or "false" anyway? 2016-05-16T20:06:40Z jcowan: I think it's bogus that NIL is () is false in Common Lisp, but I see why it was needed for backward compatibility. 2016-05-16T20:06:45Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-16T20:06:51Z groovy2shoes: though, of course, you're always free to (define true #t), etc. 2016-05-16T20:06:58Z jcowan: I wasn't a fan of #true and #false, but foof thought they were easier to read 2016-05-16T20:07:07Z C-Keen: #foof! 2016-05-16T20:07:17Z groovy2shoes: I like that #true and #false are more distinguishable 2016-05-16T20:07:17Z C-Keen: j/k 2016-05-16T20:07:21Z jcowan: Yes, indeed in Lisp 1 *T* was bound to T (which was bound to T) and *F* was bound to NIL (which was bound to NIL) 2016-05-16T20:07:49Z groovy2shoes: #t and #f, especially if you write a big column or row of them, start to look the same pretty damn quick 2016-05-16T20:08:54Z C-Keen: on the other hand you could use anything else for #t 2016-05-16T20:09:41Z jcowan: I also happen to think it would be better if all languages accepted only true as truthy and false as falsy and threw an error in all other cases 2016-05-16T20:09:44Z jcowan: but again, too late now 2016-05-16T20:09:59Z jcowan: it's very annoying keeping track across languages of which the falsy values are 2016-05-16T20:10:56Z C-Keen: I have come to appreciate that there's just one false value in scheme, and the default being true 2016-05-16T20:11:09Z jcowan: That's my second-best 2016-05-16T20:11:42Z jcowan: Combined with the misbehavior of == in JS, the JS falsy values are really obnoxious. The former can be solved by always using ===, the JS spelling of eqv?. 2016-05-16T20:11:47Z C-Keen: it's a bit more flexible than "hard typed" boolean values 2016-05-16T20:12:00Z z0d: jcowan: PHP is even worse 2016-05-16T20:12:15Z C-Keen: guys I thought we were talking about programming languages 2016-05-16T20:12:23Z z0d: true 2016-05-16T20:12:45Z C-Keen: (is that #t now...+) 2016-05-16T20:14:07Z jcowan: PHP is a pisspoor excuse for a PL, but still a PL 2016-05-16T20:14:43Z C-Keen: well one needs an anchor for ratings :) 2016-05-16T20:21:53Z keemyb joined #scheme 2016-05-16T20:25:47Z groovy2shoes: nobody else has an opinion on the matter? 2016-05-16T20:30:19Z m1dnight_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-16T20:31:13Z m1dnight_ joined #scheme 2016-05-16T20:31:40Z jcowan: In Perl you have weird cases like the string "0 but true", which is truthy though its numerical value is 0 2016-05-16T20:31:44Z jcowan: which is falsy 2016-05-16T20:33:18Z groovy2shoes: I've got the semantics nailed down already, I'm just curious about reader syntax 2016-05-16T20:33:57Z jcowan: It all depends on what language you plan to resemble most 2016-05-16T20:34:09Z jcowan: You should steal as much lexical syntax as you can, because changes to lexical syntax upset people most 2016-05-16T20:34:30Z Opodeldoc quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-16T20:34:32Z jcowan: a special case of the general bikeshedding principle 2016-05-16T20:34:53Z groovy2shoes: well, I'm *mostly* resembling EuLisp mixed with Scheme 2016-05-16T20:34:54Z jcowan: wars have been fought over whether 2. is a float, an int, or invalid syntax 2016-05-16T20:35:09Z groovy2shoes: but, EuLisp stuck with the old t vs nil convention and no way in hell am I doing that 2016-05-16T20:35:29Z jcowan: What's your intended audience? 2016-05-16T20:35:38Z groovy2shoes: everyone!! 2016-05-16T20:35:41Z groovy2shoes: :D 2016-05-16T20:36:51Z jcowan: Think how you would pitch it to (a) Schemers (b) Common Lispers (c) Eulispers (if there are any) 2016-05-16T20:37:05Z jcowan: and hell, why not (d) ISLispers 2016-05-16T20:37:16Z groovy2shoes: (if there are any) ;) 2016-05-16T20:37:24Z jcowan waves his hand 2016-05-16T20:37:43Z groovy2shoes: I have to assume there are some, since Eligis seems to have a reasonably successful commercial ISLISP compiler 2016-05-16T20:38:20Z groovy2shoes: I know for sure that I'm not doing the t/nil thing 2016-05-16T20:38:27Z jcowan: One of my back-burner projects is to make an ISLisp system in portable CL 2016-05-16T20:38:36Z groovy2shoes: there will be a true and a false, and they will be disjoint boolean type 2016-05-16T20:38:42Z mejja: groovy2shoes: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/islisp/ 2016-05-16T20:38:57Z mejja: groovy2shoes: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/eulisp 2016-05-16T20:39:07Z jcowan: kmp wrote one, but he is sitting on it 2016-05-16T20:39:19Z groovy2shoes: mejja, what about them? 2016-05-16T20:39:48Z jcowan: Okay, that's a Scheme idea, so you might as well use Scheme syntax 2016-05-16T20:39:58Z mejja: "Software Preservation Group" 2016-05-16T20:40:07Z mejja: aka DEAD! 2016-05-16T20:40:08Z jcowan: and ignore the howls of other Lispers that it's just SO CONVENIENT to have () = false. 2016-05-16T20:40:16Z groovy2shoes: mejja, I'm aware 2016-05-16T20:40:25Z groovy2shoes: I'm actually not sure EuLisp was ever even alive... 2016-05-16T20:40:43Z groovy2shoes: at least, I don't think the definition was ever finished or published in a final form 2016-05-16T20:40:48Z jcowan: As I keep saying, nothing is ever dead in Lispworld 2016-05-16T20:41:17Z jcowan: La mayyitan ma qadirun yatabaqqa sarmadi 2016-05-16T20:41:17Z jcowan: Fa idha yaji' al-shudhdhadh fa-l-maut qad yantahi. 2016-05-16T20:41:17Z jcowan: --Abdullah al-Hazred, Al-`Azif 2016-05-16T20:41:21Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-16T20:41:30Z groovy2shoes: just because EuLisp is dead doesn't mean it's not beautiful :') 2016-05-16T20:41:54Z groovy2shoes: I've been trying to get INRIA to open source Le-Lisp 2016-05-16T20:41:55Z jcowan: Exactly 2016-05-16T20:42:24Z groovy2shoes: Eligis doesn't even sell their Le-Lisp for x86 anymore... not sure anyone actually sells it anymore 2016-05-16T20:42:39Z groovy2shoes: (though the Eligis guy, Julien, did mention he still has a few support contracts for it) 2016-05-16T20:43:57Z jcowan: Tell him about how much attention Chez has gotten since it was open sourced 2016-05-16T20:44:11Z jcowan: open source does not eliminate the need for support contracts among those who need them 2016-05-16T20:44:59Z ecraven: mejja: I don't know much about most of these schemes... I'll add what you mentioned 2016-05-16T20:45:04Z jcowan: WP implies EuLisp is in fact finished 2016-05-16T20:46:00Z jcowan: at least level 0 and 1 2016-05-16T20:59:14Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, it's not :/ 2016-05-16T20:59:25Z groovy2shoes: they only ever released committee drafts 2016-05-16T20:59:55Z jcowan: Committee drafts are all you ever get for international standards 2016-05-16T21:00:07Z jcowan: the actual standards are locked up behind paywalls in most cases 2016-05-16T21:00:18Z grettke quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-16T21:01:05Z groovy2shoes: there never was a real standard, though, either 2016-05-16T21:02:23Z groovy2shoes: closest thing was "An Overview of EuLisp" which was published in Lisp and Symbolic Computation in 1993, but it's explicitly an abridged version that focuses only on the aspects the authors considered innovative 2016-05-16T21:03:04Z groovy2shoes: Julian Padget, the main editor, also has some archives on his FTP site of the mailing list and various proposals that were yet to be considered when development stopped 2016-05-16T21:03:28Z groovy2shoes: (I'm like 90% sure that EuLisp was abandoned when work on ISLISP started in earnest) 2016-05-16T21:03:54Z groovy2shoes: (I'm also like 80% sure Julian Padget wrote the ISLISP standard) 2016-05-16T21:04:13Z mejja: ecraven: I recommend the follwing flags for stalin: -On -Ob -Om -Or -Ot -d -d1 -k -copt -O3 2016-05-16T21:04:52Z groovy2shoes: -8====D -- -O: 2016-05-16T21:05:30Z mejja: ecraven: you always add a few more later such as: -clone-size-limit 0 and -split-even-if-no-widening 2016-05-16T21:05:59Z jcowan: kmp was the shepherd of ISLisp 2016-05-16T21:05:59Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-16T21:07:26Z groovy2shoes: my understanding is that Kent was the ANSI representative on the ISLISP WG 2016-05-16T21:07:53Z groovy2shoes: did he actually *write* the standard, though? some of the text in there seems to have been copypasta'd from the EuLisp one 2016-05-16T21:07:59Z jcowan: May have been 2016-05-16T21:08:17Z jcowan: some come straight from CLHS or even CLtL1, too 2016-05-16T21:08:28Z jcowan: "Technical prose is very nearly immortal." 2016-05-16T21:08:34Z groovy2shoes: heheh 2016-05-16T21:08:46Z groovy2shoes: he's a fantastic technical writer 2016-05-16T21:09:06Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-16T21:09:07Z groovy2shoes: I hope that I can emulate him in such a way that I seem even 10% as magnificent 2016-05-16T21:10:37Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-16T21:12:18Z _bogdanm_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-16T21:12:21Z groovy2shoes: funny, I was emailing Jérôme Chailloux about EuLisp because he was on the committee (this was in the thread when we were talking about open-sourcing Le-Lisp), and Julien of Eligis responded telling me I should check out ISLISP 2016-05-16T21:12:34Z jcowan chuckles. 2016-05-16T21:12:43Z jcowan: All the other impls of ISLisp seem to have rotted. 2016-05-16T21:13:00Z jcowan: I eventually want to write one for the Kawa framework, which should be easy 2016-05-16T21:13:08Z groovy2shoes: of course I had already, but where EuLisp is a shining star in the night sky of languages, ISLISP is a gimped, dwarfed knock-off of Common Lisp -_- 2016-05-16T21:14:48Z jcowan: Oh, I think it has its own classic beauty which is completely separate from the classic beauty of Scheme 2016-05-16T21:15:07Z jcowan: CL done right fromt he start, as T is in some sense Scheme done right from the start 2016-05-16T21:15:12Z groovy2shoes: like, if you took Common Lisp, cut off its legs and dominant arm, then broke the remaining pinky, bashed its teeth in with a baseball bat, and cut off half its tongue, you'd have ISLISP 2016-05-16T21:15:15Z jcowan: and Oaklisp is likewise in another sense 2016-05-16T21:15:30Z jcowan: Bah, CL is IL with ugly bags sticking out on all sides 2016-05-16T21:15:49Z groovy2shoes: oh, yeah, you're right 2016-05-16T21:16:02Z groovy2shoes: hitting it in the mouth with a bat would probably *fix* it's teeth lol 2016-05-16T21:16:45Z ecraven: mejja: thanks, I'll rerun with those 2016-05-16T21:17:12Z groovy2shoes: I dunno, I just think ISLISP is too minimal to be useful, and too encumbered by tradition to be pretty 2016-05-16T21:17:37Z jcowan: Hence R7RS-large 2016-05-16T21:17:38Z groovy2shoes: Common Lisp might be equally ugly, but at least it's useful 2016-05-16T21:17:51Z jcowan: Far more ugly. Far more. 2016-05-16T21:17:58Z groovy2shoes: yeah, I'm pretty excited that visible things are finally happening with the large language 2016-05-16T21:18:11Z jcowan: At least the type system is built in to both EuLisp and ISLisp, not bolted on as with CL. 2016-05-16T21:18:27Z jcowan: are you registered to vote? 2016-05-16T21:18:30Z groovy2shoes: yeah 2016-05-16T21:18:35Z groovy2shoes: I was the first one! :p 2016-05-16T21:19:01Z jcowan: Ah, okay, I don't have a mapping from real names to IRC nicks 2016-05-16T21:19:02Z groovy2shoes: I also got some major Hacker News and Reddit karma from that post heheheheh 2016-05-16T21:19:42Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: do you actually know that much old english? 2016-05-16T21:20:04Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, not really... I mostly copypasta'd from Beowulf and changed a few words here and there 2016-05-16T21:20:10Z ecraven: nice :) 2016-05-16T21:20:18Z groovy2shoes: slowly learning, though 2016-05-16T21:22:52Z ecraven: gōde niht :) 2016-05-16T21:23:00Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-16T21:24:22Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, british? 2016-05-16T21:24:25Z groovy2shoes: irish? 2016-05-16T21:24:30Z groovy2shoes: continental? 2016-05-16T21:24:35Z groovy2shoes: afrikaaner? 2016-05-16T21:32:33Z groovy2shoes: CNN senior foreign correspondent? 2016-05-16T21:35:04Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-05-16T21:37:14Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-16T21:43:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-16T21:44:40Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2016-05-16T21:55:54Z amgarching quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-16T22:04:26Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-16T22:06:58Z andrewvic quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-16T22:10:46Z mejja: "In dieser Tabelle sind die wichtigsten Eigenschaften der genannten LISP-Systeme zusammengestellt" -- http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/erlangen/Goerz-Verwendung_von_LISP-1976.pdf 2016-05-16T22:10:47Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/KuwKsFuGG6 2016-05-16T22:11:36Z mejja: 40 years ago :-) 2016-05-16T22:19:18Z qu1j0t3: how time flies 2016-05-16T22:24:15Z jcowan: Abdullah al-Hazred strikes 2016-05-16T22:28:24Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-16T22:35:33Z groscoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-16T22:38:32Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-16T22:41:43Z kuribas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-16T22:42:26Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-16T22:46:13Z zalatovo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-16T22:46:15Z mumptai quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-05-16T22:48:05Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-16T22:50:55Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-16T23:06:50Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-16T23:11:49Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-16T23:11:52Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-16T23:26:27Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-16T23:30:03Z Shadox joined #scheme 2016-05-16T23:34:11Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-16T23:38:20Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-16T23:39:46Z groovy2shoes: alright, mejja, who gave the Nazis LISP technology? 2016-05-16T23:41:20Z groovy2shoes: Völkischlisp?! 2016-05-16T23:42:42Z groovy2shoes: serious question, though: what's the significance of this? 2016-05-16T23:48:04Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-16T23:48:11Z groovy2shoes: hmm this P. Gregssav for the LISP Bulletin... is that the VLISP guy? or ObjVlisp maybe? 2016-05-16T23:48:49Z kori joined #scheme 2016-05-16T23:52:55Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-16T23:56:50Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-17T04:38:09Z amgarching joined #scheme 2016-05-17T04:51:34Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-05-17T05:03:46Z amgarching quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-17T05:05:54Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-17T05:14:03Z Shadox quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-17T05:16:36Z ecraven: Thanks to mejja's correcting me on the options, stalin is now much faster: http://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html 2016-05-17T05:21:12Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T05:21:51Z BigKitty joined #scheme 2016-05-17T05:26:45Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-17T05:31:19Z mokuso quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-17T05:31:21Z BigKitty quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-17T05:39:45Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-17T05:44:06Z Flippers quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-17T06:03:43Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2016-05-17T06:09:23Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-17T06:12:36Z manumanumanu: ecraven: It would be nice to see what stalin does differently on the benchmarks where it is 4 times faster than everything else. Does all the benchmarks output the final result? otherwise one can suspect DCE. 2016-05-17T06:16:37Z ecraven: stalin outputs .c files 2016-05-17T06:16:52Z ecraven: which one would you like to see :) 2016-05-17T06:23:07Z manumanumanu: ecraven: array1 2016-05-17T06:23:49Z ecraven: http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/array1.c 2016-05-17T06:24:47Z manumanumanu: jesus h. christ in a chicken basket! 2016-05-17T06:25:01Z ecraven: also, http://www.nexoid.at/tmp/array1.exp is the alexpanded version that stalin actually sees 2016-05-17T06:25:11Z ecraven: manumanumanu: hehe, I take it you've never looked at stalin output? :) 2016-05-17T06:25:41Z manumanumanu: see ya in a year or two 2016-05-17T06:25:44Z wasamasa: oh wow 2016-05-17T06:25:55Z wasamasa: and I thought chicken's output was bade 2016-05-17T06:25:56Z wasamasa: *bad 2016-05-17T06:26:50Z Flippers joined #scheme 2016-05-17T06:28:08Z manumanumanu: I hereby declare that Stalin does not do dead code elimination and forbid anyone to examine it any further. 2016-05-17T06:28:22Z manumanumanu: ah, peace of mind 2016-05-17T06:28:32Z ecraven: manumanumanu: hehe, I'm quite sure stalin *does* do DCE, but in this case, the result is not dead code, I believe 2016-05-17T06:28:45Z ecraven: there's the comparison against the expected result, which is (read) from stdin 2016-05-17T06:29:05Z ecraven: (which incidentally is why tinyscheme doesn't work, its READ seems to only get EOF if I redirect stdin :-/) 2016-05-17T06:32:28Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-17T06:35:06Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-17T06:42:28Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-17T06:49:36Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T06:54:16Z bogdanm joined #scheme 2016-05-17T06:55:33Z _bogdanm_ joined #scheme 2016-05-17T06:59:12Z bogdanm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T07:01:09Z fgudin joined #scheme 2016-05-17T07:01:34Z civodul joined #scheme 2016-05-17T07:07:22Z Wojciech_K quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T07:14:31Z Wojciech_K joined #scheme 2016-05-17T07:22:33Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-17T07:25:02Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-17T07:41:51Z ecraven: is there anything like parenscript for Scheme? I.e. *not* a full scheme implementation in javascript, but rather an s-expression syntax for JS, which could be used to write "normal" javascript code, but not in JS syntax 2016-05-17T07:58:12Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, I think soegaard did something like that for Racket, but I can't remember what it's called off the top of my head 2016-05-17T07:58:37Z ecraven: whalesong? 2016-05-17T07:58:47Z groovy2shoes: no, it's something else 2016-05-17T07:58:48Z ecraven: maybe not that one 2016-05-17T07:58:55Z ecraven: urlang 2016-05-17T07:58:59Z ecraven: ah, I remember seeing that 2016-05-17T07:59:10Z groovy2shoes: yeah! that's it 2016-05-17T08:00:39Z ecraven: hm.. those javascript libraries never seem to show simple examples of stuff like "hello".toUpperCase().replace("e","o") 2016-05-17T08:00:50Z ecraven: which is exceedingly weird in most translations to lisp :-/ 2016-05-17T08:03:31Z groovy2shoes: that's one macro away from being as convenient as it is in JS :p 2016-05-17T08:03:36Z ecraven: how? 2016-05-17T08:04:03Z ecraven: I mean, idiomatic Scheme would be (replace (toUpperCase "hello") "e" "o") 2016-05-17T08:04:29Z ecraven: but most libraries have something like (: "hello" (toUpperCase) (replace "e" "o")) 2016-05-17T08:08:42Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-17T08:09:03Z groovy2shoes: that's what I mean 2016-05-17T08:09:07Z groovy2shoes: something like the latter 2016-05-17T08:09:19Z ecraven: yea, that is not really that useful for "normal" frontend code 2016-05-17T08:09:20Z aeth joined #scheme 2016-05-17T08:09:28Z ecraven: I also find it highly unreadable 2016-05-17T08:09:51Z groovy2shoes: but... it's, like, the same as the JS code 2016-05-17T08:09:58Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-17T08:10:04Z ecraven: I find the JS code much more readable 2016-05-17T08:11:17Z wasamasa: what is that: syntax? 2016-05-17T08:11:36Z wasamasa: I recall seeing it before... 2016-05-17T08:11:38Z ecraven: wasamasa: just my memory of what these things look like in most of the js libraries I've seen 2016-05-17T08:11:43Z ecraven: maybe parenscript? 2016-05-17T08:11:59Z wasamasa: no, srfi-42 2016-05-17T08:12:21Z ecraven: wasamasa: ah, never read that, thanks for the pointer 2016-05-17T08:12:48Z wasamasa: I've seen it in the webkit and iup egg 2016-05-17T08:12:59Z wasamasa: apparently its author likes that one :P 2016-05-17T08:13:47Z manumanumanu: it would have been really nice if Sebastian's last name would have been eager 2016-05-17T08:14:58Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-17T08:16:43Z igam joined #scheme 2016-05-17T08:17:54Z wasamasa: :D 2016-05-17T08:21:43Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-17T08:25:05Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-17T08:25:13Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-17T08:25:32Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-17T08:30:00Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-05-17T08:32:09Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-17T08:32:52Z ecraven: how does this look: (js (ready ($ _ document) (lambda () (click ($ _ "a") (lambda (event) (alert _ "As you can see, the link no longer ..") (prevent-default event)))))) -> "$(document).ready(function () { $(\"a\").click(function (event) { alert(\"As you can see, the link no longer ..\");event.preventDefault(); }); })" 2016-05-17T08:33:29Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T08:37:33Z r0kc4t quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-17T08:44:36Z ^bogdanm^ joined #scheme 2016-05-17T08:46:34Z przl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-17T08:47:55Z _bogdanm_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-17T08:48:03Z scarygelatin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-17T08:54:44Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-17T09:25:31Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-17T09:25:52Z przl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T09:37:18Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-17T09:38:14Z manumanumanu quit (Quit: puke) 2016-05-17T09:39:04Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-17T09:56:41Z yosafbridge quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-17T10:00:42Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2016-05-17T10:02:45Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-17T10:02:51Z ecraven: hm.. now with es6 javascript has function (which binds this) and => (which doesn't)... and this is supposed to make things better?? 2016-05-17T10:05:57Z ecraven: at least TCO is guaranteed in es6 2016-05-17T10:12:05Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-17T10:16:10Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-17T10:22:55Z mj12` joined #scheme 2016-05-17T10:26:49Z yosafbridge joined #scheme 2016-05-17T10:29:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-17T10:43:23Z yosafbridge quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-17T10:47:11Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T10:48:01Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2016-05-17T10:50:50Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-17T10:56:39Z yosafbridge joined #scheme 2016-05-17T10:59:30Z kuribas joined #scheme 2016-05-17T11:05:18Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-17T11:09:30Z kuribas joined #scheme 2016-05-17T11:22:51Z xyh joined #scheme 2016-05-17T11:25:47Z xieyuheng joined #scheme 2016-05-17T11:25:59Z xieyuheng quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T11:27:35Z xyh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-17T11:35:36Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-17T11:44:14Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-17T12:02:37Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-17T12:22:17Z noethics joined #scheme 2016-05-17T12:34:58Z aries_liuxueyang joined #scheme 2016-05-17T12:35:26Z eatonphil joined #scheme 2016-05-17T12:37:57Z eatonphil quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-17T12:40:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-17T12:44:26Z lritter joined #scheme 2016-05-17T12:44:46Z peaton joined #scheme 2016-05-17T12:45:30Z peaton quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-17T12:45:58Z peaton joined #scheme 2016-05-17T12:46:44Z peaton is now known as eatonphil 2016-05-17T12:52:58Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-17T12:56:04Z davorb left #scheme 2016-05-17T12:57:12Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-17T13:00:41Z manumanumanu joined #scheme 2016-05-17T13:14:10Z foof: I proposed #true/#false assuming they would get voted down, but wanted to get people used to the idea for R8RS :) 2016-05-17T13:15:01Z ecraven: foof: hehe, I'm not sure I like having *both* #f and #false, but I don't care much which one there is 2016-05-17T13:15:21Z ecraven: having both seems contrary to that one sentence in the summary I like so much 2016-05-17T13:16:00Z Riastradh: I suggest we have #f, #!false, #0, #faut, and #!&@!#^fuck. 2016-05-17T13:16:03Z ecraven: "few different ways t form expressions", though this can of course be understood to mean something entirely different 2016-05-17T13:16:13Z igam: Well, you could have (eq? #f #false) Both syntax could read the same object. 2016-05-17T13:16:21Z taylan: igam: that's the case 2016-05-17T13:16:22Z ecraven: Riastradh: ah, at last someone proposes localising keywords! 2016-05-17T13:16:36Z igam: Riastradh: that'd be #faux and #vrai 2016-05-17T13:16:36Z ecraven: igam: that doesn't make it better, you still have to different things that mean the exact same thing 2016-05-17T13:16:38Z ecraven: why have both :) 2016-05-17T13:16:55Z igam: ecraven: no, there would be a single thing. Only two different ways to write it. 2016-05-17T13:17:11Z ecraven: igam: still, why have two if one suffices? 2016-05-17T13:17:12Z igam: for example, ecraven and Eric can be the same thing. ;-) 2016-05-17T13:17:31Z igam: ecraven: different contexts, notably legacy vs. modern code. 2016-05-17T13:17:41Z foof: #はい and #いえ don't really translate the same way though 2016-05-17T13:17:52Z ecraven: foof: that'd be yes and no, not true and false 2016-05-17T13:18:10Z igam: Now one advantage of #t and #f is that they have the same length, while #false and #true need formating. 2016-05-17T13:18:13Z ecraven: also, #いいえ :) 2016-05-17T13:18:39Z taylan: (= 1 2) => #ばかか?! 2016-05-17T13:18:42Z ecraven: igam: I don't see the explicit *need* for #true and #false, but I wouldn't object too much, if #f and #t were deprecated for #true and #false 2016-05-17T13:18:53Z Riastradh: Maybe the bikeshed should be painted #trueish and #falsish. 2016-05-17T13:18:53Z ecraven: what I don't like is having *both* 2016-05-17T13:19:49Z taylan: .oO( maybe my joke is only funny to anime subculturists and not everyone who knows Japanese ) 2016-05-17T13:20:04Z Riastradh: igam: Actually I wasn't suggesting French -- I was suggesting a little-known regional dialect of Klingon that has not been patented by Paramount. 2016-05-17T13:20:13Z igam: Riastradh: ok. 2016-05-17T13:20:46Z igam: Riastradh: #trueish would be 0.9 or 0.95? 2016-05-17T13:20:57Z taylan: BTW I agree that having multiple external representations for the same thing can be annoying. you lose information upon 'read' and 'write' possibly doesn't do what you want. 2016-05-17T13:20:58Z foof: everyone here who speak Japanese better be coming to the Scheme Workshop! 2016-05-17T13:21:26Z Riastradh: Really, let's just get rid of booleans altogether and make Scheme fully Bayesian by assigning probabilities to every term in it. 2016-05-17T13:21:27Z igam: and vote for a r7rs with all identifiers in Japanese? :-) 2016-05-17T13:21:44Z taylan: (though otherwise I love #true and #false) 2016-05-17T13:21:58Z foof: gauche has a japanese mode 2016-05-17T13:22:29Z ecraven: foof: nice, what does that look like? 2016-05-17T13:22:37Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-05-17T13:23:02Z taylan: like chicken scribbles /troll 2016-05-17T13:25:50Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T13:26:01Z foof: (定義 階乗 は (λ (n) (もし (≦ n 2) ならば n でなければ (× n (階乗 (− n 1)))))) 2016-05-17T13:26:13Z ecraven: wow, thanks for that 2016-05-17T13:26:49Z ecraven: I like the syntax for "then" and "else" :) 2016-05-17T13:28:04Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-17T13:28:37Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-17T13:29:49Z Riastradh: foof: R7RS-gargantuan should also include an Arabic mode, complete with entirely right-to-left syntax and calligraphic ligatures for all tokens. 2016-05-17T13:31:30Z z0d: what's the point in having multiple boolean values? except it was a joke 2016-05-17T13:31:55Z foof: don't forgot boustrophedron layout for ancient greek mode! 2016-05-17T13:32:05Z ecraven: z0d: I don't think the goal was to have multiple, but some people liked #false and #true, so those were just added :-/ 2016-05-17T13:32:32Z ecraven: foof: you don't happen to know of a boustrophedon ebook reader? I sincerely think that would be a great thing 2016-05-17T13:32:50Z ecraven: after some time for getting used to it 2016-05-17T13:33:20Z Riastradh: z0d: Sometimes you really just gotta express file-not-found differently from true and false! 2016-05-17T13:33:21Z foof: i think i implemented it for one of my text editor prototypes... i definitely had vertical layout working for japanese 2016-05-17T13:35:41Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-17T13:42:33Z eatonphil quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-17T13:42:54Z eatonphil joined #scheme 2016-05-17T13:47:32Z mikeyhc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-17T13:48:53Z edw joined #scheme 2016-05-17T13:50:35Z pierpa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-17T13:50:50Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-17T13:51:22Z pierpa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-17T13:51:32Z mikeyhc joined #scheme 2016-05-17T13:54:06Z mj12` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-17T13:54:11Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-17T13:54:36Z mj12` joined #scheme 2016-05-17T13:54:37Z igam: I would argue for (define true #t) (define false #f) which can be provided by libraries. But then '(true false true false) wouldn't work. 2016-05-17T14:03:38Z kuribas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T14:04:01Z z0d: long gone are the days of R5Rs... 2016-05-17T14:07:53Z ecraven: foof: I wonder whether it would feel better than current reading practice, once you get used to it 2016-05-17T14:10:34Z pierpa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-17T14:12:40Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-17T14:14:28Z jackdaniel quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-17T14:15:36Z jackdaniel joined #scheme 2016-05-17T14:15:49Z mejja: ecraven: reading http://gambitscheme.org/wiki/index.php/Gambit_benchmarks I wonder if you need to use -copt -O3 for bigloo: bigloo -O6 -copt -O3 ?? 2016-05-17T14:17:23Z ecraven: mejja: I'll try that, thank you 2016-05-17T14:17:56Z ecraven: hm.. both -O6 and -O3 look strange 2016-05-17T14:18:45Z mejja: -O6 for bigloo and -O3 for gcc 2016-05-17T14:18:49Z ecraven: ah, just noticed that, thanks 2016-05-17T14:19:22Z ecraven: running bigloo now 2016-05-17T14:19:34Z ecraven: I took -copt -fomit-frame-pointer too 2016-05-17T14:21:34Z mejja: I don't think you need to omit the frame pointer on x86_64 2016-05-17T14:22:09Z ecraven: ah, never thought about that 2016-05-17T14:22:36Z fizzie: Yeah, it's already been pre-vomited. (Gross.) 2016-05-17T14:23:28Z mejja: .. and if it improves the result you should try for all systems 2016-05-17T14:24:48Z ecraven: mejja: all systems? 2016-05-17T14:25:41Z mejja: gambit, stalin, chicken. 2016-05-17T14:27:04Z ecraven: great, thanks 2016-05-17T14:28:57Z retroj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-17T14:30:59Z _bogdanm_ joined #scheme 2016-05-17T14:31:52Z ^bogdanm^ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T14:45:33Z pierpa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-17T14:48:39Z mejja: [pid 22148] execve("/usr/bin/gcc", ["gcc", "-Wl,-Bsymbolic-functions", "-Wl,-z,defs", "-Wall", "-W", "-Wno-unused", "-O1", "-fno-math-errno", "-fschedule-insns2", "-fno-trapping-math", "-fno-strict-aliasing", "-fwrapv", "-fomit-frame-pointer", "-fPIC", "-fno-common", "-mieee-fp", ...], [/* 64 vars */]) = 0 2016-05-17T14:54:06Z LeoNerd: Why did I read -Bshambolic-functions ? 2016-05-17T15:02:34Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-05-17T15:02:35Z ecraven: any suggestions for a simple r5rs testing library? 2016-05-17T15:05:27Z davexunit: does SRFI-64 not count? 2016-05-17T15:08:08Z grettke quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-17T15:09:26Z ecraven: thanks, one more SRFI I didn't know about :-/ 2016-05-17T15:13:52Z turtleman joined #scheme 2016-05-17T15:15:51Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-17T15:22:04Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-17T15:23:30Z taylan: ecraven: FYI I have a portable R7RS implementation of it here: https://github.com/taylanub/scheme-srfis 2016-05-17T15:24:04Z ecraven: taylan: great, thanks! 2016-05-17T15:24:09Z taylan: :) 2016-05-17T15:24:20Z ecraven: I'm on MIT/GNU Scheme, so the code might work, but the library description won't :-/ 2016-05-17T15:24:44Z taylan: ah, ok 2016-05-17T15:24:59Z taylan: could be that the reference implementation works out of the box 2016-05-17T15:25:08Z ecraven: yea, it should 2016-05-17T15:27:46Z edw quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-17T15:35:43Z edw joined #scheme 2016-05-17T15:37:07Z ghsk joined #scheme 2016-05-17T15:45:34Z ^bogdanm^ joined #scheme 2016-05-17T15:45:48Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-17T15:45:48Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-17T15:45:48Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-17T15:49:27Z _bogdanm_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T15:53:34Z DGASAU: wasamasa: I disagree on your assessment of Emacs on NT. I used it with great success. 2016-05-17T15:53:58Z DGASAU: manumanumanu: if you're a musician, you may really like Emacs, actually. 2016-05-17T15:54:25Z DGASAU: manumanumanu: especially, if you are fluent with any keyboard/button instrument like accordion. 2016-05-17T15:55:21Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-17T15:57:59Z amgarching joined #scheme 2016-05-17T15:58:12Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-05-17T15:58:34Z eatonphil quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-17T16:06:56Z bobbywilson0 joined #scheme 2016-05-17T16:16:44Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-17T16:29:05Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-17T16:33:05Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-17T16:33:50Z leot quit (Quit: BBL) 2016-05-17T16:40:56Z manumanumanu: DGASAU: my instrument only has about 30 keys, and I am using emacs :D although the spacemacs variety 2016-05-17T16:43:15Z bobbywilson0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T16:45:27Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-17T16:49:27Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-17T16:54:05Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T16:55:46Z groscoe quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-17T16:55:50Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T16:57:24Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-17T16:57:48Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-17T16:57:52Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-17T17:02:15Z alezost quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-17T17:09:09Z eatonphil joined #scheme 2016-05-17T17:15:34Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T17:17:44Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-17T17:31:58Z DGASAU: manumanumanu: no idea if you can play chords on your instrument, hopefully you can. if so, you can understand emacs better. 2016-05-17T17:32:28Z ecraven: DGASAU: isn't emacs more about swift sequences of keys, not so much combinations (unless you use keychords)? 2016-05-17T17:32:33Z noethics: what kind of instrument is vim 2016-05-17T17:32:48Z manumanumanu: something noble. a harp or something 2016-05-17T17:32:49Z DGASAU: manumanumanu: I have heard joke that vi is for drummers and percussionists, while emacs is for key/button instrumentalists. :) 2016-05-17T17:33:02Z manumanumanu: DGASAU: I play the bassoon. What should i use? 2016-05-17T17:33:37Z manumanumanu: percussionists are considered to be dumb. 2016-05-17T17:33:38Z manumanumanu: but fun 2016-05-17T17:33:50Z noethics: how so? 2016-05-17T17:33:51Z manumanumanu: viola players on the other hand are just dumb 2016-05-17T17:33:53Z DGASAU: manumanumanu: you've got the joke then :D 2016-05-17T17:34:05Z manumanumanu: no idea. 2016-05-17T17:34:07Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-17T17:34:15Z noethics: that doesn't make sense to me 2016-05-17T17:34:27Z noethics: not that i'm a percussionist but it seems hard :) 2016-05-17T17:34:38Z manumanumanu: How do you know that the stage is completely even? 2016-05-17T17:34:46Z manumanumanu: The percussionist drools from both sides of his mouth 2016-05-17T17:34:49Z noethics: haha 2016-05-17T17:35:19Z manumanumanu: noethics: orchestra percussionists rarely have that much to do 2016-05-17T17:35:41Z manumanumanu: What is the difference between a viola player and a can of dog food? 2016-05-17T17:35:42Z noethics: i don't listen to that type of music whatsoever 2016-05-17T17:35:46Z noethics: not cultured enough 2016-05-17T17:35:57Z manumanumanu: A can of dog food may contain traces of brain 2016-05-17T17:36:01Z noethics: lmao 2016-05-17T17:37:15Z noethics: so what makes emacs "smarter" to use? 2016-05-17T17:37:26Z wasamasa: you hopefully 2016-05-17T17:37:38Z manumanumanu: remembering so many combinations? 2016-05-17T17:37:43Z noethics: i use vim, but i am pretty new to lisp in general 2016-05-17T17:37:53Z noethics: i've been considering trying emacs 2016-05-17T17:38:13Z ecraven: noethics: it's great :) 2016-05-17T17:38:32Z ecraven: there's evil-mode and spacemacs and a few other ways to have a vi-like experience in emacs 2016-05-17T17:38:37Z manumanumanu: noethics: I consider myself a vim user, but someone told me to try spacemacs. it is BLOATED but it gives you a lot 2016-05-17T17:39:00Z manumanumanu: spacemacs is great. really effin great. 2016-05-17T17:39:13Z manumanumanu: there are no tutorials for a beginner though. you just have to figure shit out yourself 2016-05-17T17:39:14Z noethics: i'm trying to understand the benefit 2016-05-17T17:39:26Z noethics: is it that you have more powerful user defined macros? 2016-05-17T17:40:46Z manumanumanu: noethics: the scheme development is what won me over. Now I never want to leave. Geiser gives me all I want. Documentation in the editor, completion, smart indentation. A repl 2016-05-17T17:41:27Z noethics: i have all that in vim though 2016-05-17T17:42:31Z manumanumanu: i never had the patience to set that up in vim :D :D 2016-05-17T17:43:05Z noethics: pretty much you just compose plugins for differnt languages 2016-05-17T17:43:27Z noethics: my scheme config has only liike 3 unique plugins which took 30 seconds to setup 2016-05-17T17:44:09Z manumanumanu: that's way too much time for me. Since networkmanager configured my 3g modem out of the box for ubuntu karmic I haven't used the terminal at all. 2016-05-17T17:44:35Z noethics: you don't use emacs from the terminal? 2016-05-17T17:44:37Z manumanumanu: which I mean as a joke, but just barely 2016-05-17T17:45:17Z manumanumanu: noethics: nah. it does SSH for me. no need to try to keep several configurations in sync 2016-05-17T17:45:33Z noethics: i don't really understand 2016-05-17T17:45:38Z noethics: my setup looks something like this 2016-05-17T17:45:40Z noethics: https://camo.githubusercontent.com/aef7e206534518a4cda418fa3f72c054bb992ff8/687474703a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f746875656e596c2e706e67 2016-05-17T17:45:40Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/PCfkP5hD45 2016-05-17T17:48:01Z noethics: i assumed most people using text editors like emacs were using them in the same way with tmux/screen 2016-05-17T17:49:27Z manumanumanu: noethics: mine looks something like this http://imgur.com/jzDRtS1 2016-05-17T17:50:22Z noethics: it looks really basic 2016-05-17T17:50:31Z manumanumanu: that is not my desktop, but you get the idea 2016-05-17T17:50:43Z scarygelatin joined #scheme 2016-05-17T17:50:47Z noethics: it's nice but missing a lot of stuff i like 2016-05-17T17:50:54Z noethics: line numbers? lol 2016-05-17T17:51:10Z manumanumanu: you don't think you can toggle it? :D 2016-05-17T17:51:20Z noethics: and to start a repl .. open another panel `scheme` 2016-05-17T17:53:48Z JoshS quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-17T17:53:49Z manumanumanu: Have to take care of puking kids. 2016-05-17T17:53:53Z manumanumanu: bbl 2016-05-17T17:54:30Z noethics: lol 2016-05-17T17:57:43Z pepton2 joined #scheme 2016-05-17T18:01:21Z pjb joined #scheme 2016-05-17T18:04:14Z pillton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T18:05:03Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-17T18:07:58Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T18:09:20Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2016-05-17T18:10:43Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-17T18:11:54Z jcowan: hoo hoo 2016-05-17T18:18:26Z mejja: Jingle bells, jingle bells, Jingle all the way. 2016-05-17T18:19:41Z pjb: Isn't it a little early? 2016-05-17T18:20:03Z manumanumanu: Jaaa, vi elsker dette landet! 2016-05-17T18:22:02Z manumanumanu: happe 17th of may, everyone 2016-05-17T18:22:20Z pjb: Thanks. 2016-05-17T18:22:22Z manumanumanu: I hope you get really drunk on illegally imported swedish beer. 2016-05-17T18:22:43Z manumanumanu: quality brands like Kung, and Blågul. 2016-05-17T18:23:39Z jcowan: It's a good thing to have lots of national anthems 2016-05-17T18:23:46Z jcowan: Countries with only one are boring 2016-05-17T18:27:17Z mejja: manumanumanu: 100% fulöl :-) 2016-05-17T18:28:32Z manumanumanu: don't listen to mejja. Give yourself some slack and take another sip of your Sofiero Orginal 2016-05-17T18:29:04Z manumanumanu: jcowan: I thought you only had one official? 2016-05-17T18:30:06Z amgarching quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-17T18:30:07Z mejja: The inofficial swedish national anthem is 'Helan går' 2016-05-17T18:30:24Z ecraven: du gamla du fria? 2016-05-17T18:30:30Z manumanumanu: which is pronounced as "Hell and Gore!" 2016-05-17T18:31:01Z manumanumanu: ecraven: yup. We actually had a competition a long time ago with 11 applicants, but none of them won. 2016-05-17T18:31:13Z manumanumanu: instead we got this boring "du gamla du fria" 2016-05-17T18:31:31Z ecraven: manumanumanu: that version on youtube with the footballer speaking is nice 2016-05-17T18:32:01Z ecraven: that one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v6lt7OxlMA 2016-05-17T18:32:39Z jcowan: the U.S. has three-four, of which the official is the stupidest and most unsingable 2016-05-17T18:33:10Z jcowan thinks "America the Beautiful" is the best 2016-05-17T18:33:26Z manumanumanu: ecraven: I am no fan 2016-05-17T18:33:28Z ecraven: eternal flame is the best! 2016-05-17T18:33:29Z jcowan: "This Land Is Your Land" is too political 2016-05-17T18:33:38Z ecraven: manumanumanu: of soccer or of that song? 2016-05-17T18:33:59Z ecraven: wasn't that Trini Lopez? this land is your land, this land is my land, ... 2016-05-17T18:34:11Z manumanumanu: ecraven: of that song 2016-05-17T18:34:38Z ecraven: manumanumanu: as far as I understand, it's claimed by most scandinavian countries and used to be about more than only sverige? 2016-05-17T18:35:05Z mejja: Thou ancient, Thou free, Thou mountainous north Thou quiet, Thou joyful [and] fair! I greet thee, loveliest land upon earth, /:Thy sun, Thy sky, Thy climes green.:/ 2016-05-17T18:35:19Z mejja: jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du_gamla,_Du_fria 2016-05-17T18:35:20Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-17T18:35:58Z jcowan: ecraven: Yes, but written by Woody Guthrie 2016-05-17T18:36:09Z mejja: Thou thronest on memories of great olden days, When honoured Thy name flew across the earth, I know that Thou art and wilt remain what thou werest, /:Yes, I want to live, I want to die in the North.:/ 2016-05-17T18:36:17Z ecraven: jcowan: I never knew that was even famous :) 2016-05-17T18:36:28Z jcowan: One of the verses is 2016-05-17T18:36:29Z jcowan: As I went walking I saw a sign there 2016-05-17T18:36:30Z jcowan: And on the sign it said "No Trespassing." 2016-05-17T18:36:30Z jcowan: But on the other side it didn't say nothing, 2016-05-17T18:36:30Z jcowan: That side was made for you and me. 2016-05-17T18:36:41Z jcowan: Kids often learn a few verses in school 2016-05-17T18:36:53Z jcowan: http://woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/This_Land.htm 2016-05-17T18:36:53Z nanoz joined #scheme 2016-05-17T18:37:06Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-05-17T18:37:46Z pobivan joined #scheme 2016-05-17T18:38:15Z DGASAU wonders why 17th May is a holiday. 2016-05-17T18:38:21Z DGASAU knows why 19th is. 2016-05-17T18:39:31Z ecraven: DGASAU: in which country is the 19th a holiday? 2016-05-17T18:41:30Z jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_17#Holidays_and_observances 2016-05-17T18:41:39Z jcowan: and so for all other days of the year 2016-05-17T18:42:27Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-17T18:42:45Z ecraven: nice 2016-05-17T18:43:01Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T18:47:12Z alezost quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-17T18:54:07Z DGASAU: ecraven: in USSR it was establishment of Pioneers' Organization. 2016-05-17T18:59:29Z DGASAU: Wah! 2016-05-17T18:59:58Z DGASAU: By coincidence, it is also Ho Shi Minh's birthday. 2016-05-17T19:00:40Z mejja: So larceny is 32b mode only? https://github.com/larcenists/larceny/blob/master/README-FIRST.txt 2016-05-17T19:03:10Z manumanumanu: seems like it. 2016-05-17T19:03:33Z ecraven: mejja: yes, there's a todo for 64 bit mode :) 2016-05-17T19:03:33Z z0d: the homepage says it can generate code for x64 as well 2016-05-17T19:05:50Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T19:10:19Z jcowan: Petit Larceny should in principle run on any C architecture, but I don't know if it's being maintained. 2016-05-17T19:11:52Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T19:12:21Z jcowan: I suppose I should try to build it 2016-05-17T19:19:35Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-17T19:22:22Z lucasem joined #scheme 2016-05-17T19:38:50Z arbv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T19:51:16Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-17T19:51:23Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-05-17T19:57:50Z groscoe_ joined #scheme 2016-05-17T19:59:35Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T20:00:04Z Blkt_ joined #scheme 2016-05-17T20:00:52Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T20:00:55Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-17T20:01:16Z Blkt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T20:02:44Z Blkt_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T20:06:00Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-17T20:14:01Z Blkt joined #scheme 2016-05-17T20:14:28Z Blkt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T20:14:29Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-17T20:15:43Z Blkt joined #scheme 2016-05-17T20:17:12Z edw quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T20:21:11Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-17T20:27:04Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-17T20:32:35Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-17T20:34:44Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-17T20:52:56Z pillton joined #scheme 2016-05-17T20:54:54Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T20:59:47Z pgimeno joined #scheme 2016-05-17T21:01:03Z pgimeno left #scheme 2016-05-17T21:01:57Z mumptai quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-05-17T21:08:11Z ELLIOTTCABLE is now known as ec 2016-05-17T21:12:11Z ^bogdanm^ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-17T21:20:04Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-17T21:20:58Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2016-05-17T21:33:46Z jcowan: Is there any obvious reason why numeric vectors (u8, s8, ... u64, s64, f32, f64, c64, c128) shouldn't have exactly the same API as generic Scheme vectors? 2016-05-17T21:35:02Z jcowan: It's a lot of identifiers, but they can be factored into 12 libraries, since most users won't need all 12 types. 2016-05-17T21:35:16Z jcowan: s/generic/general 2016-05-17T21:37:33Z eatonphil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-17T21:39:48Z evhan: That seems like the most intuitive thing to me. 2016-05-17T21:43:49Z ghsk quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-17T21:49:01Z jcowan: I agree, and it also makes writing the SRFI very easy! 2016-05-17T21:49:21Z lucasem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-17T22:01:32Z nanoz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-17T22:09:12Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-17T22:15:16Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-17T22:16:52Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-17T22:20:41Z pierpa` joined #scheme 2016-05-17T22:21:03Z mejja: rudybot: The right thing takes forever to design, but it is quite small at every point along the way. 2016-05-17T22:21:08Z rudybot: mejja: I forget who said it, but theres a quote along the lines of "there are three stages of knowledge acceptance: it's ignored, then it's dismissed as irrelevant, then it's nothing special and has been known forever" 2016-05-17T22:22:08Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-17T22:24:45Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-17T22:26:00Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-17T22:26:10Z eatonphil joined #scheme 2016-05-17T22:26:43Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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wasamasa: the only problem I have with the original is that it allows for only one binding 2016-05-18T07:14:19Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-18T07:14:34Z wasamasa: whereas you can have as many as you want, even unnamed ones, with and-let* 2016-05-18T07:15:26Z bogdanm joined #scheme 2016-05-18T07:16:24Z dmiles joined #scheme 2016-05-18T07:16:44Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T07:16:59Z manumanumanu: wasamasa: why not link to the right repo? https://github.com/greghendershott/rackjure 2016-05-18T07:17:11Z br0kenman joined #scheme 2016-05-18T07:17:30Z wasamasa: didn't know about that one, thanks! 2016-05-18T07:18:27Z m0li joined #scheme 2016-05-18T07:18:47Z manumanumanu: I use the threading macros from rackjure as often as I can :) and of course his fantastic markdown parsing library 2016-05-18T07:18:53Z manumanumanu: greg is a great guy 2016-05-18T07:25:07Z SirDayBa1 is now known as SirDayBat 2016-05-18T07:31:04Z cmatei joined #scheme 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Tractor thus becomes something like "metal-bull". 2016-05-19T10:01:46Z igam: manumanumanu: basically what we do in France too. 2016-05-19T10:02:20Z igam: DGASAU: Russian has a lot of influences, French, German, English. 2016-05-19T10:02:26Z DGASAU: igam: bullshit. 2016-05-19T10:02:38Z igam: Perhaps you meant "ancient Russian"? 2016-05-19T10:02:41Z DGASAU: No. 2016-05-19T10:02:45Z DGASAU: I mean modern Russian. 2016-05-19T10:02:59Z manumanumanu: igam: other languages have taken words from you for a LOOOONG time. I don't think icelandic has 2016-05-19T10:03:06Z DGASAU: Point to any grammatical or phonetical construction that came from outside. 2016-05-19T10:03:44Z fugue joined #scheme 2016-05-19T10:03:52Z fugue quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-19T10:04:07Z DGASAU: You can see how Russian dealt with codified spelling that came with loan-words from French. 2016-05-19T10:04:24Z fugue joined #scheme 2016-05-19T10:04:41Z manumanumanu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Russian_language 2016-05-19T10:05:00Z manumanumanu: 18th century mentions french 2016-05-19T10:05:04Z fugue left #scheme 2016-05-19T10:05:17Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2016-05-19T10:05:22Z igam: театр кино вино институция etc. 2016-05-19T10:05:42Z igam: There is a ton of Russian words coming from the languages I mentionned above. 2016-05-19T10:06:14Z DGASAU: Loan words are not influence. 2016-05-19T10:06:19Z DGASAU: They are just loan words. 2016-05-19T10:06:22Z igam: This is a problem for learners, because teachers will have you use them since you already know them, but in the meantime, you don't learn the true russian words… 2016-05-19T10:07:05Z igam: Well, if you restrict influences to grammar, ok. 2016-05-19T10:07:06Z DGASAU: Even if you use a word like "театр" you still have to learn Russian. :) 2016-05-19T10:07:24Z DGASAU: Because that word is conjugated, and you have to deal with it. 2016-05-19T10:07:30Z igam: yes. 2016-05-19T10:07:46Z DGASAU: Note that it is conjugated following Russian rules rather than rules of English, German or Greek. 2016-05-19T10:08:01Z igam: of course. 2016-05-19T10:08:15Z DGASAU: That's what makes difference. 2016-05-19T10:08:47Z igam: All languages are more resistant on the grammar side than on the vocabulary side. 2016-05-19T10:09:17Z DGASAU: The only significant influence is from Old Bulgarian, where participles stem from. 2016-05-19T10:09:33Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T10:10:06Z DGASAU: Yet even in that case participles are more like own invention, since originals are adjectives. 2016-05-19T10:10:28Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-19T10:12:32Z DGASAU: Also compare the story of words like "chauffeur" and "aviator." :) 2016-05-19T10:13:57Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T10:14:19Z mmc joined #scheme 2016-05-19T10:16:02Z groovy2shoes: DGASAU, I studied Russian at university :) (not my major, just me free electives) 2016-05-19T10:16:16Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-19T10:19:12Z DGASAU: To compare to English, consider how English inflects loan-words like "formula", "nucleus" and some other words of Latin and Greek origin. 2016-05-19T10:19:34Z noethics joined #scheme 2016-05-19T10:21:31Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-19T10:24:30Z DGASAU: BTW, wikipedia article about Russian doesn't reflect recent findings of recent 20 years. 2016-05-19T10:47:20Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T10:49:19Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T10:49:54Z anabain quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T10:52:16Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T10:52:17Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-19T10:54:01Z dmiles joined #scheme 2016-05-19T10:54:16Z noethics quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T10:55:07Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-19T10:55:35Z noethics joined #scheme 2016-05-19T10:55:47Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2016-05-19T10:56:23Z anabain joined #scheme 2016-05-19T10:57:07Z andrewvic quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-19T11:07:48Z fugue joined #scheme 2016-05-19T11:08:04Z fugue left #scheme 2016-05-19T11:14:47Z fugue0 joined #scheme 2016-05-19T11:15:35Z fugue0 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-19T11:16:41Z fugue0 joined #scheme 2016-05-19T11:17:06Z fugue0 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-19T11:17:21Z fugue0 joined #scheme 2016-05-19T11:24:19Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T11:30:27Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-19T11:35:02Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T11:39:17Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-19T11:40:52Z mokuso quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T11:46:29Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T11:52:10Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-19T11:57:35Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2016-05-19T12:15:38Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-19T12:18:46Z r0kc4t quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T12:23:33Z syjulian joined #scheme 2016-05-19T12:26:08Z r0kc4t joined #scheme 2016-05-19T12:38:37Z ggole joined #scheme 2016-05-19T12:38:59Z anabain: Pretty funny to see how people think of their language as "pure"... This "thought" doesn't resist one second from any philosophical point of view in the 21th century. Well, strictly speaking, not from the 17th... 2016-05-19T12:39:04Z anabain: ;) 2016-05-19T12:40:28Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-19T12:41:09Z noethics: anabain, can you explain :) 2016-05-19T12:42:48Z anabain: simple: the moment Galileo, to say one name, starts experimenting mathematically with reality and imposes a mathematical image of the world, the game is over, guys 2016-05-19T12:43:20Z noethics: anabain, how so? 2016-05-19T12:43:53Z anabain: There's more difference between current English and old English than between current English and Catalan, for example. 2016-05-19T12:44:06Z noethics: what does any of this have to do with language purity 2016-05-19T12:44:14Z noethics: are you a markov bot? 2016-05-19T12:44:40Z anabain: Because the way our mind thinks about reality is different since the 17th century, like it or not 2016-05-19T12:44:52Z DGASAU still has to understand what English people call "old English." 2016-05-19T12:45:18Z anabain: DGASAU, for example, English from the 16th century 2016-05-19T12:45:28Z noethics: i think you're utterly wrong and don't understand 2016-05-19T12:45:30Z DGASAU: Shakespearean? 2016-05-19T12:45:36Z noethics: or you're on a higher level and i don't 2016-05-19T12:45:38Z anabain: DGASAU, for example, yes 2016-05-19T12:45:42Z noethics: but i doubt that 2016-05-19T12:46:06Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-19T12:46:39Z DGASAU: As for me, the distance between Shakespearean English and modern English is significantly closer than that between Russian and Bulgarian. 2016-05-19T12:47:00Z anabain: DGASAU, these are superficial differences 2016-05-19T12:47:16Z DGASAU: They way people think is not related. 2016-05-19T12:47:24Z DGASAU: Even today different people think differently, 2016-05-19T12:47:32Z DGASAU: they can communicate still. 2016-05-19T12:47:36Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T12:47:54Z noethics: are you arguing that because things change a computer prgramming language can't be pure? 2016-05-19T12:48:08Z anabain: Everybody "accepts" the mathematical image of the world, explicitly or implicitly 2016-05-19T12:48:08Z igam: Yes, superficial, just different macros. But once you expand the macros, you still have basically the same semantics. 2016-05-19T12:49:33Z anabain: igam, well, it's a (somewhat weird) way of saying it 2016-05-19T12:49:49Z igam: After all, this is #scheme :-) 2016-05-19T12:50:13Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-19T12:50:56Z DGASAU: Consider a mathematician and, say, a physisist. 2016-05-19T12:51:25Z noethics: consider any mathematician solving a problem 2016-05-19T12:51:26Z DGASAU: Despite having close background, both have significantly different ways of thinking. 2016-05-19T12:51:39Z noethics: they will very likely solve the problem in a `pure` way 2016-05-19T12:51:42Z noethics: because math is pure 2016-05-19T12:51:58Z DGASAU: For an experimentalist from material sciences, 5% of difference makes no matter. 2016-05-19T12:52:14Z anabain: There's far more less distance between a Bulgarian and a Russian in the way they fundamentally see the world/reailty than there is between a contemporary Russian and, say, the Grand Duke Ivan IV 2016-05-19T12:52:19Z DGASAU: So "equal" means different things. 2016-05-19T12:52:32Z DGASAU: Yet they still can communicate. 2016-05-19T12:52:39Z noethics: this reminds me of the time i showed up to a mensa meeting 2016-05-19T12:52:46Z DGASAU: Ivan IV wasn't "Grand Duke." 2016-05-19T12:52:54Z DGASAU: Even Ivan III wasn't. :) 2016-05-19T12:53:12Z noethics: people just talking pretentiously about their favourite topic trying to relate it to the discussion 2016-05-19T12:55:06Z noethics: "i get it, you're smart. shut the fuck up" 2016-05-19T12:56:10Z anabain: noethics, after studying Descartes, Kant, Hegel, Frege, Russell, Wittgenstein and Heidegger, the last thing I would like to suggest is that I'm being pretentious. I'd say humble, instead. 2016-05-19T12:56:27Z noethics: that was an admiral bait 2016-05-19T12:56:34Z noethics: admirable 2016-05-19T12:56:36Z noethics: :D 2016-05-19T12:57:02Z anabain: But I'm not going to enter the personal way, sorry. 2016-05-19T12:57:20Z noethics: so why don't you try to actually prove your theory about language purity 2016-05-19T12:57:31Z noethics: instead of talk about all the philosophers you've studied 2016-05-19T12:57:41Z DGASAU: anabain: the way people used to reason back in those days has little relevance to the language, as you can see reading literature of 16th century and of, say, early 20th century symbolists. 2016-05-19T13:01:09Z anabain: It's very simple, I'll repeat it: the moment you think reality can be viewed as a thing that can be counted/measured/mathematically interpreted, and you start living this way (science -> technology), things cannot be the same any more. Game over. Things have changed, and as long as language is used to interact with this reality, it's been decisively affected by this new relationship. This holds for every modern language. 2016-05-19T13:02:44Z noethics: anabain, how is the language affected by the fact that reality changes? 2016-05-19T13:03:02Z noethics: we're of course not talking about natural languages 2016-05-19T13:03:10Z anabain: Of course we are 2016-05-19T13:03:28Z noethics: no one claims their natural language is pure, that makes no sense 2016-05-19T13:04:11Z DGASAU: "Pure" is still disputable. 2016-05-19T13:04:13Z noethics: haskell can be pure, for example 2016-05-19T13:04:28Z DGASAU: 5% tolerance is negligible. 2016-05-19T13:04:29Z noethics: we don't count the fact that it's running on a stateful processor 2016-05-19T13:04:32Z anabain: lambda calculus, and we finish this way 2016-05-19T13:04:44Z profan: i think the kinds of purity you are talking about are completely separate at this point :D 2016-05-19T13:04:49Z noethics: what about lambda calculus? 2016-05-19T13:04:51Z anabain: profan, od course 2016-05-19T13:05:05Z anabain: od -> of 2016-05-19T13:05:44Z noethics: anabain, how do you define purity? 2016-05-19T13:05:58Z noethics: i didn't think it was disputed but TL 2016-05-19T13:05:59Z noethics: TIL* 2016-05-19T13:06:10Z m0li joined #scheme 2016-05-19T13:07:21Z anabain: if something, all not natural languages stress what I'm trying to illustrate. They're only formalisms. What I'm talking about it's the way we conceive reality and how we interact with it, and this only can be done with natural languages. 2016-05-19T13:08:23Z noethics: okay i think you have no idea what purity is 2016-05-19T13:08:35Z noethics: and your initial statement can be considered moot 2016-05-19T13:09:17Z anabain: And natural languages, from the 17th century, in what we say occidental world at least, are crucially influenced by this mathematical image of the world. 2016-05-19T13:09:34Z noethics: natural languages have NOTHING to do with purity 2016-05-19T13:10:17Z grettke quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-19T13:10:52Z anabain: Then, "purity", or not having influences from other languages, is just a matter of "philological make-up" in a fundamental way. 2016-05-19T13:11:22Z noethics: here is my definition from wikipedia 2016-05-19T13:11:24Z noethics: `In computing, an algorithm, data structure, or programming language is called purely functional if they guarantee the (weak) equivalence of call-by-name, call-by-value and call-by-need evaluation strategies. One typical approach to achieve this is by excluding destructive modifications (updates) of entities in the program's running environment.[1] According to this restriction, variables are used in a mathematical sense, with identifiers referring to 2016-05-19T13:11:25Z noethics: immutable, persistent values.` 2016-05-19T13:11:46Z noethics: that's it. 2016-05-19T13:11:54Z noethics: we don't have to talk about 17th century anything. 2016-05-19T13:12:06Z bogdanm joined #scheme 2016-05-19T13:13:10Z groovy2shoes: anabain, if you think that a "pure" language is one that has no influences from any other language, then I'm sorry to inform you that "pure" languages don't exist 2016-05-19T13:14:02Z anabain: Well, this is a modern version of what Leibniz, another let's-not-talk-about-the-17th-century guy, said in his writings, noethics... 2016-05-19T13:14:10Z noethics: cool. 2016-05-19T13:14:55Z noethics: and now we know you can't follow an argument either 2016-05-19T13:14:59Z groovy2shoes: "characteristica universalis"? 2016-05-19T13:15:01Z noethics: QED 2016-05-19T13:15:57Z anabain: groovy2shoes, that's just where I started: trying to say/suggest a natural language is pure cannot be held for one second. 2016-05-19T13:16:36Z groovy2shoes: that statement doesn't make sense to me 2016-05-19T13:16:56Z groovy2shoes: afaik, purity isn't defined for natural languages 2016-05-19T13:19:07Z anabain: well, it wasn't me who argued things like that: "Loan words are not influence", " if you want to learn a language that experienced little to none of external influence, learn Russian." 2016-05-19T13:19:46Z groovy2shoes: yeap, I was pretty much just going to ignore that statement lol 2016-05-19T13:19:48Z DGASAU: If you move to 17th century as a reference, it becomes a lot worse to defend. 2016-05-19T13:20:10Z groovy2shoes: funny, I went to take a nap for an hour and a half, and come back to see that the same discussion is going on, in #scheme no less! 2016-05-19T13:20:18Z noethics: if you move to 17th century shit where OP has all their knowledge, of course you can argue anything with anyone 2016-05-19T13:22:00Z anabain: Leibniz contradicts you, DGASAU. 2016-05-19T13:22:14Z groovy2shoes: Leibniz was German, no? 2016-05-19T13:22:26Z anabain: Or Newton, or Galileo... 2016-05-19T13:22:34Z groovy2shoes: English, Italian... 2016-05-19T13:22:59Z anabain: And he wrote in French, groovy2shoes 2016-05-19T13:22:59Z turtlemanMobile quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:23:20Z DGASAU: anabain: I don't care, if Leibnitz contradicts me. He is not God the Almight. 2016-05-19T13:24:34Z DGASAU: The main reason why 17th century is impossible to defend as reference point is that the last Christian End-of-the-World date passed during the rule of Ivan IV. 2016-05-19T13:25:38Z DGASAU: Since the beginning of 17th century nothing changed the way we reason fundamentally. 2016-05-19T13:25:44Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-19T13:26:27Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:28:22Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-19T13:30:26Z anabain: 17th century: Descartes, Galileo, Newton, Leibniz, that is, science as we understand it from that moment up till now. But if you like, we can stop studying, physics, maths and the like, as these guys are not gods... 2016-05-19T13:30:28Z igam: DGASAU: that's not quite true. Church, Turing, computing is a new way to think about things. 2016-05-19T13:30:56Z DGASAU: Computing is irrelevant here. 2016-05-19T13:31:20Z igam: DGASAU: there's also the discovery of genetics and the development of statistics, which are important contribution to the way we can reason about things. 2016-05-19T13:31:34Z DGASAU: How does it influence the way we reason? 2016-05-19T13:31:40Z anabain: igam, not different from the guidelines given by, for example, Leibniz. 2016-05-19T13:31:46Z DGASAU: Has has it influenced, in particular? 2016-05-19T13:31:54Z igam: DGASAU: it's not irrelevant at all. It brings new ideas about what we can thing about or not. 2016-05-19T13:32:33Z DGASAU: It brings new ideas but it has had absolutely no influence on the reasoning in the way reflected by language. 2016-05-19T13:33:19Z igam: If you don't take them into account, then of course, they won't have any influence. But a philospher who would ignore them would be irrelevant today. 2016-05-19T13:33:55Z DGASAU: We didn't talk about philosophy. 2016-05-19T13:33:59Z DGASAU: We talked about language. 2016-05-19T13:34:24Z DGASAU: anabain put forth an argument that in 16th century people thought and reasoned fundamentally differently. 2016-05-19T13:34:27Z anabain: DGASAU, which is the same, at the end of the say. 2016-05-19T13:34:29Z igam: GEB is the most important book of the XXth century. All the others are only ratiocinazing about ideas from the XIXth. 2016-05-19T13:35:00Z DGASAU: What is GEB? 2016-05-19T13:35:04Z anabain: of the say -> of the say 2016-05-19T13:35:09Z igam: Goedel Escher and Bach. 2016-05-19T13:35:23Z DGASAU: Unimportant at all. 2016-05-19T13:35:43Z DGASAU: Not to the claimed extent. 2016-05-19T13:35:50Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-19T13:36:02Z groovy2shoes: ^ 2016-05-19T13:36:24Z groovy2shoes: GEB was a bunch of hogwash, anyway, don't see what people are raving about 2016-05-19T13:36:29Z igam: What can you say in linguistics today without ideas from computing (grammars, parsing, etc), statistics, and genetics (to support or disprove our ideas on migrations of populations and linguistic evolution)? 2016-05-19T13:36:31Z anabain: igam, the most important books of the XXth century are the "Philosophical Investigations" by Wittgenstein, and "Being and Time", by Heidegger. 2016-05-19T13:36:56Z DGASAU: igam: those are details that are important to specialists but not to regular users of languages. 2016-05-19T13:36:59Z groovy2shoes: no, you're all wrong 2016-05-19T13:37:01Z groovy2shoes: so wrong 2016-05-19T13:39:31Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-19T13:39:32Z mokuso quit (Changing host) 2016-05-19T13:39:32Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-19T13:40:29Z aeth: groovy2shoes: welcome to the Internet 2016-05-19T13:40:29Z igam: For example, this comes to a current culmination in Numera's HTM. You cannot say anything meaningful in phylosophy and in semantics, without taking into account the latest knowledge we have fo the brains, neural networks, and the computations they're doing (or if they're doing anything not covered by computing, which you'll have a very hard time to demonstrate). 2016-05-19T13:40:39Z anabain: Both texts show that a formalistic view of language is too limited to human thought. (and at this point I'm also thinking of Gödel's Theorem...). Indeed, Wittgenstein wrote them as a "correction" of his "formalistic" point of view. 2016-05-19T13:40:49Z DGASAU would say that the most important literature work of 20th century is "The April Theses." Little can compare to them in influence on the world history. 2016-05-19T13:41:38Z groovy2shoes: ^ 2016-05-19T13:41:54Z igam: And given the number of people in asylums, you'll also have a hardtime disproving one of the assertion of GEB, that the brain as any other system can encounter an input that will break it, (ie. Goedel's incompletion theorem). 2016-05-19T13:42:08Z mokuso_ joined #scheme 2016-05-19T13:42:10Z igam: Ie. the brain is a formal system. 2016-05-19T13:42:46Z anabain: DGASAU, I also think you're, in a sense, right; that is, from a political point of view. 2016-05-19T13:43:34Z igam: You can still argue otherwise, and there are some theories linking the physical brain to some "soul" in another universe, but the communication channel between the brain and the soul would have a very low bandwidth, something like 16 bit/s. Unfortunately, we don't have scanners fine enough yet to be able to prove it. It's only theorical. 2016-05-19T13:43:56Z anabain: But even this text is fundamentally a by-product of a mechanicistic way of interpreting the world/reality, DGASAU. 2016-05-19T13:43:56Z igam: (linked to some parallel universes physics theories). 2016-05-19T13:44:44Z igam: Which by the way is also very recent developments, but more related to computing than to physics, since it comes from quantum information theories. 2016-05-19T13:45:02Z groovy2shoes: everybody just shut up 2016-05-19T13:45:14Z igam: - 2016-05-19T13:46:27Z profan: i always find it funny when people try to reason about the brain in the only way they know, by linking it to how we think about computation, that's how people like kurzweil happened 2016-05-19T13:47:09Z igam: profan: start from the neurons! 2016-05-19T13:47:12Z aeth: This is #scheme. The most important work of the 20th century is "Scheme: An Interpreter for Extended Lambda Calculus". 2016-05-19T13:47:21Z anabain: igam, in my opinion, any terms suggesting any form of "theological smuggling" are intrinsecally misleading, and then we have to ask why they are being used... ;) 2016-05-19T13:47:42Z profan: aeth: haha, you've got the right idea :D 2016-05-19T13:48:01Z igam: anabain: of course, you wouldn't explain how the soul work :-) 2016-05-19T13:49:19Z igam: But what I mean is to show that you still have serious philosophical work to do, even taking into account science latest discoveries about the brain. But please don't try to do it without those discoveries and inventions. 2016-05-19T13:50:25Z noethics: that's not how philosophy works 2016-05-19T13:50:31Z noethics: it's not limited by science! 2016-05-19T13:51:03Z mokuso quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:51:35Z noethics: it goes at the bottom of the list in the dumpster with the other pseudosciences 2016-05-19T13:51:35Z mokuso_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:51:42Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-19T13:52:14Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-19T13:52:14Z mokuso quit (Changing host) 2016-05-19T13:52:14Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-19T13:52:15Z mokuso_ joined #scheme 2016-05-19T13:52:22Z DGASAU: anabain: any magical ritual exploits the same interpretation of the world. 2016-05-19T13:52:59Z DGASAU: The only difference is that neurosurger's magic is stronger than shaman's. 2016-05-19T13:54:48Z jshjsh: I read GEB when I was an adolecent. Obviously I didn't get the Godel part back then, but it gave me a weird first look at formal systems... 2016-05-19T13:55:04Z jshjsh: Now that I know what it's about I see that it's a little heretical 2016-05-19T13:55:21Z jshjsh: it's saying that banishing paradoxes is a dumb math trick 2016-05-19T13:56:01Z jshjsh: It doesn't say what the alternative would be, but I guess the alternative is to understand the paradoxes in the same sense that we understand division by zero 2016-05-19T13:56:10Z jshjsh: and don't go overboard banishing division 2016-05-19T13:56:39Z jshjsh: I bought a copy a month or so ago 2016-05-19T13:56:48Z jshjsh: but I just am not interested anymore 2016-05-19T13:57:05Z jshjsh: Godel isn't that fascinating 2016-05-19T13:57:26Z anabain: DGASAU, it's a way to put it. But, there's a "little" difference: medicine magic operates under a mathematical image of the world..., and many would argue (including me), that it's stronger just *because of* that 2016-05-19T13:58:23Z aeth: I always disliked the whole division by zero thing. It even requires a workaround hack sometimes... in mathematics itself. 2016-05-19T13:58:42Z jshjsh: "you'll also have a hardtime disproving one of the assertion of GEB," ... that assertion was a joke 2016-05-19T13:58:48Z jshjsh: there are jokes in that book 2016-05-19T13:59:00Z groovy2shoes: yeah, like, multiplication of integers is *almost* a group... 2016-05-19T13:59:13Z groovy2shoes: division is *almost* a field 2016-05-19T13:59:13Z aeth: jshjsh: I think we don't banish division because division is too useful, sort of like people didn't banish calculus back before it had rigor. 2016-05-19T13:59:15Z groovy2shoes: they say 2016-05-19T13:59:32Z groovy2shoes: "the integers except zero" form a field under division 2016-05-19T13:59:34Z DGASAU: As for me, bringing Goedel's results at philosophical level is a sign that the person is illiterate in mathematical logic. 2016-05-19T14:00:06Z aeth: (1) come up with something equivalent to division but without the divide by 0 problem, (2) try to get it into r7rs-large 2016-05-19T14:00:14Z jshjsh: I still of hofsteadter 2016-05-19T14:00:36Z DGASAU: anabain: that's bullshit. 2016-05-19T14:00:48Z anabain: DGASAU, a mathematical image we owe to people as "despicable" as philosophers like those I mentioned before (that's what I mean by "17th century") 2016-05-19T14:00:58Z jshjsh: he did a good book on analogies in ai... half of it is wasted on a bad project he wasted time on, but his wife had just died and I think his judgement was impaired 2016-05-19T14:01:06Z DGASAU: anabain: you've never studied medicine or related sciences and never talked to doctors, it seems. 2016-05-19T14:01:08Z jshjsh: He did a good book on translating poetry 2016-05-19T14:02:18Z anabain: DGASAU, how come? Don't they use the scientific method? What' do they study at university? Chemistry or alchemy? 2016-05-19T14:02:26Z DGASAU: anabain: no, they don't. 2016-05-19T14:02:59Z jshjsh: How do the surreal numbers handle divide by zero 2016-05-19T14:03:06Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-05-19T14:03:07Z DGASAU: There exist doctors that do, but all other follow standard routines as if it is magic. 2016-05-19T14:03:09Z jshjsh: they sure have a lot of numbers NEAR zero 2016-05-19T14:03:09Z groscoe_ joined #scheme 2016-05-19T14:03:44Z jshjsh: you can always divide by almost zero in that system 2016-05-19T14:03:45Z anabain: DGASAU, and how are medicines prepared? How they prescribe the amount of medicine to be taken? Guessing, perhaps? 2016-05-19T14:04:15Z DGASAU: "Medicines" as in "pills, powders and stuff"? 2016-05-19T14:04:20Z DGASAU: You won't believe it! 2016-05-19T14:04:32Z DGASAU: Read anything about reproducable medicine. 2016-05-19T14:04:36Z jshjsh: I still *like hofsteadter 2016-05-19T14:04:49Z anabain: DGASAU, how they monitor patients? By reading their eyes? 2016-05-19T14:05:07Z DGASAU: anabain: by using standard procedures. 2016-05-19T14:05:16Z RainBowww joined #scheme 2016-05-19T14:05:26Z anabain: DGASAU, that is: mathematics. Thank you. 2016-05-19T14:05:32Z DGASAU: No, it is not. 2016-05-19T14:05:39Z RainBowww: how to destroy haskell 2016-05-19T14:05:46Z RainBowww: annihilate it 2016-05-19T14:05:50Z DGASAU: Counting is not mathematics. 2016-05-19T14:06:09Z noethics: (yes it is) 2016-05-19T14:06:13Z RainBowww: its about faith 2016-05-19T14:06:16Z RainBowww: im counting on you 2016-05-19T14:06:18Z RainBowww: <3 2016-05-19T14:06:29Z RainBowww: ? 2016-05-19T14:06:33Z aeth: ah, standard procedures... chapter 6 of r7rs.pdf 2016-05-19T14:06:37Z noethics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting 2016-05-19T14:06:41Z RainBowww: xd 2016-05-19T14:06:48Z lritter joined #scheme 2016-05-19T14:07:24Z jshjsh: I did something interesting the other day. A tiny embedding of a prolog like language in another language that doesn't have continuations. The trick is that you have to write clauses in continuation passing style. It turns out that with practice you can. And with a extension of cps you can reify the search and have parallel searches 2016-05-19T14:07:57Z jshjsh: I did write a macro to make the cps more readable... 2016-05-19T14:08:13Z DGASAU: noethics: there's a joke in Russian universities that "by age of 3 a kid should be able to differentiate simple linear forms" (actual quote from some pedagogical book). 2016-05-19T14:08:46Z anabain: DGASAU, proportions, analogy, are *already* mathematics, and that's what all these things I said do, *at least* they do it. 2016-05-19T14:08:53Z noethics: lol 2016-05-19T14:09:41Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-19T14:12:41Z taylan: wow wtf is being debated here, goes several pages back in my log 2016-05-19T14:12:56Z jshjsh: I have no idea 2016-05-19T14:13:03Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T14:13:06Z jshjsh is now known as JoshS 2016-05-19T14:13:22Z profan: im pretty sure the original purpose was lost long ago 2016-05-19T14:13:31Z taylan: also, the most important work of the 20th century is by far Woman Hating by Andrea Dworkin, you silly geese 2016-05-19T14:14:04Z RainBowww: i need to pee now 2016-05-19T14:15:18Z JoshS: RainBowww, now 10 scheme nerds are imagining you pee, good work 2016-05-19T14:15:29Z RainBowww: o.O 2016-05-19T14:15:34Z RainBowww: omg 2016-05-19T14:15:36Z RainBowww: nooo 2016-05-19T14:15:45Z RainBowww: its disgusting 2016-05-19T14:15:50Z RainBowww: :( 2016-05-19T14:15:54Z taylan: RainBowww: do all the colors come out? 2016-05-19T14:16:00Z RainBowww: ... 2016-05-19T14:16:04Z aeth: JoshS: 10 philosophy nerds, 3 math nerds, and 1 scheme nerd. 2016-05-19T14:16:25Z aeth: Which person here is the Scheme nerd? Well, now I just changed the subject in everyone's mind 2016-05-19T14:16:45Z RainBowww: ok i dont need to pee 2016-05-19T14:16:46Z JoshS: groovy2shoes is the scheme nerd 2016-05-19T14:16:49Z RainBowww: i was only joking 2016-05-19T14:16:53Z RainBowww: o.O 2016-05-19T14:16:58Z JoshS: all better 2016-05-19T14:17:02Z taylan: so, anyone have Scheme questions? 2016-05-19T14:17:25Z RainBowww: no 2016-05-19T14:17:27Z RainBowww: i dont have 2016-05-19T14:17:51Z JoshS: someone was arguing that languages should be designed so that it's legal for them to give exact numeric answers in all cases 2016-05-19T14:17:52Z RainBowww: omg now i understand 2016-05-19T14:17:55Z RainBowww: that book 2016-05-19T14:17:58Z RainBowww: little schemer 2016-05-19T14:18:03Z RainBowww: pedophiles 2016-05-19T14:18:09Z RainBowww: o.O 2016-05-19T14:18:27Z taylan: RainBowww: BTW the enter key is not punctuation, please don't split your message across so many lines. and crude jokes are crude, please refrain if possible. 2016-05-19T14:19:00Z RainBowww: ok i lave this place is not fun :( 2016-05-19T14:19:02Z RainBowww: bye bye 2016-05-19T14:19:08Z RainBowww left #scheme 2016-05-19T14:19:18Z JoshS: lol 2016-05-19T14:19:19Z taylan: come back any time if you have Scheme questions ... meh 2016-05-19T14:19:33Z jackdaniel: obvious troll is obvious they say :) 2016-05-19T14:19:36Z JoshS: it's not #4chan 2016-05-19T14:19:43Z RainBowww joined #scheme 2016-05-19T14:20:35Z RainBowww: :( 2016-05-19T14:21:07Z taylan: RainBowww: feel free to ask Scheme questions any time, but otherwise please don't clutter the channel so much :) 2016-05-19T14:21:07Z JoshS: I disagree with taylan, I often use the enter key so people don't get bored waiting for the next shoe to drop. 2016-05-19T14:21:31Z JoshS: Which implies that I have more than two shoes. I'm an alien. 2016-05-19T14:21:46Z RainBowww: i feel offended by word crude 2016-05-19T14:21:51Z leot quit (Quit: BBL) 2016-05-19T14:22:14Z RainBowww: ok have a nice day goodbyeee :*** 2016-05-19T14:22:39Z RainBowww: ;) 2016-05-19T14:22:41Z RainBowww left #scheme 2016-05-19T14:22:43Z taylan: *sigh* the youth today 2016-05-19T14:23:31Z taylan: (the irony in me saying that is probably lost in most but whatever :P) 2016-05-19T14:23:48Z JoshS: r u youth? 2016-05-19T14:24:48Z syjulian quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-19T14:24:54Z taylan: Hi, my name is Taylan, I'm 22, and I used 4chan for ~5 years. /ex 4channers anonymous 2016-05-19T14:25:13Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-19T14:25:24Z JoshS: not anonymous enough 2016-05-19T14:25:40Z JoshS: I will refrain from admitting anything like that >.> 2016-05-19T14:26:19Z JoshS: Now back to pretending to be intellectual 2016-05-19T14:26:45Z JoshS: that douglas hofstadter is sure a wanker, eh? 2016-05-19T14:27:23Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-19T14:27:50Z scarygelatin joined #scheme 2016-05-19T14:28:54Z JoshS: someone mentioned destroying haskell... Is it possible to come up with scheme one liners that are hard in Haskell? 2016-05-19T14:29:35Z aeth: Anything involving call/cc? 2016-05-19T14:29:42Z JoshS: I don't really know haskell, I just get that I'm not all that interested in something overly complex like that. And I do like scheme like languages. 2016-05-19T14:30:18Z JoshS: I was hoping for more like making the type system choke on something simple like untyped thunks 2016-05-19T14:30:55Z taylan: language wars are silly. every bit as silly as editor wars. let's please not. 2016-05-19T14:30:56Z JoshS: I use call/cc a lot more than most people. But call/cc is a hard sell 2016-05-19T14:31:34Z taylan: call/cc is broken; use delimited continuations if you must: http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html 2016-05-19T14:31:53Z ggole: And Haskell has Cont anyway 2016-05-19T14:32:25Z JoshS: sure, but don't implementations of call/cc only go back to a prompt in racket? So they're delimited anyway. 2016-05-19T14:32:54Z taylan: yeah but you're probably capturing a continuation much larger than you want/need to 2016-05-19T14:33:03Z ggole: Maybe something involving variadic arguments would be more natural 2016-05-19T14:33:16Z taylan: and honestly, since I grokked del. cont. I find them easier to reason about than full call/cc 2016-05-19T14:33:33Z JoshS: I like delimited but reifyable 2016-05-19T14:33:43Z JoshS: ?reifiable 2016-05-19T14:33:48Z taylan: specifically I love Guile's del. cont. API 2016-05-19T14:33:59Z taylan: call-with-prompt/abort-to-prompt 2016-05-19T14:34:01Z JoshS: what version of delimited continuations are reifiable? 2016-05-19T14:34:19Z taylan: been meaning to write a SRFI of them but I might be too much of a noob to do that properly 2016-05-19T14:34:49Z taylan: JoshS: when speaking of the feature of continuations in Scheme, one implicitly means reifiable continuations. that's the feature. 2016-05-19T14:34:57Z JoshS: As I said, I've been playing with writing in directly in cps style 2016-05-19T14:35:06Z taylan: (unless I misunderstood your question) 2016-05-19T14:35:21Z JoshS: well most versions of delimited continutions are very limited 2016-05-19T14:35:36Z JoshS: and not usuable for everything, not really reifiable 2016-05-19T14:35:36Z taylan: what del. cont. implementations do you have in mind? 2016-05-19T14:36:31Z JoshS: I don't remember the names anymore. shift reset 2016-05-19T14:37:21Z JoshS: I typed this earlier in the thread 2016-05-19T14:37:49Z JoshS: I did something interesting the other day. A tiny embedding of a prolog like language in another language that doesn't have continuations. The trick is that you have to write clauses in continuation passing style. It turns out that with practice you can. And with a extension of cps you can reify the search and have parallel searches 2016-05-19T14:38:04Z rpcope quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T14:38:05Z jackdaniel: taylan: thanks for the link, nice read 2016-05-19T14:38:39Z JoshS: it kind of feels like making delimited continuations with hand tools 2016-05-19T14:38:56Z JoshS: chisels and hammers 2016-05-19T14:40:32Z teurastaja joined #scheme 2016-05-19T14:41:18Z JoshS: brb breakfast 2016-05-19T14:41:47Z mokuso_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T14:41:53Z teurastaja: you have breakfast 2016-05-19T14:42:06Z mokuso quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T14:42:34Z rpcope joined #scheme 2016-05-19T14:42:52Z teurastaja: so... can anyone tell me why the AI ive seen written in scheme is lame? 2016-05-19T14:43:05Z JoshS: as opposed to AI in what? 2016-05-19T14:43:09Z teurastaja: ANNs; anyone into that? 2016-05-19T14:43:29Z teurastaja: ...in just accomplishing anything 2016-05-19T14:43:42Z JoshS: give me an example of not lame AI 2016-05-19T14:44:10Z teurastaja: just find something that works and uses scheme ;) 2016-05-19T14:44:39Z JoshS: never mind, we're being trolled, I confused you with someone else... 2016-05-19T14:45:02Z teurastaja: no im not trolling 2016-05-19T14:45:05Z teurastaja: im searching 2016-05-19T14:45:15Z teurastaja: i want examples 2016-05-19T14:45:49Z teurastaja: (call/cc *AI*) 2016-05-19T14:46:21Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, iirc, call/cc in Racket has a prompt in two places: 1) for programs, around the whole program, and 2) at the REPL, around every expression submitted 2016-05-19T14:46:41Z JoshS: you can set your own prompts 2016-05-19T14:46:53Z JoshS: I think... 2016-05-19T14:47:00Z groovy2shoes: yes, you can 2016-05-19T14:47:14Z groovy2shoes: but those are the default ones when using call/cc and not using shift/reset yourself 2016-05-19T14:47:22Z JoshS: I faked delimited another way... to kludgy to explain 2016-05-19T14:47:32Z JoshS: set up an empty continuation with a command loop 2016-05-19T14:47:33Z teurastaja: usually 'display just prompts? 2016-05-19T14:47:36Z JoshS: and used that 2016-05-19T14:48:04Z teurastaja: then you (read) :P 2016-05-19T14:48:04Z JoshS: at the very beginning of a program, because I didn't know about prompts and delimited continuations 2016-05-19T14:49:11Z teurastaja: i dont know about those either but my guess is that you just return whatever prompt as a continuation? 2016-05-19T14:49:47Z groovy2shoes: teurastaja, we're talking about a different kind of prompt :p read up on delimited continuations 2016-05-19T14:49:50Z teurastaja: like (call/cc "string") ? 2016-05-19T14:49:59Z teurastaja: oh 2016-05-19T14:50:39Z teurastaja: continuations are a pain in the ass to garbage-collect 2016-05-19T14:50:55Z teurastaja: try that on a 8051 lol 2016-05-19T14:51:24Z groovy2shoes: heheh 2016-05-19T14:51:24Z JoshS: teurastaja, I have a similar question. Why are all of the symbolic math packages in lisp (or wolfram) and say, none in prolog or other languages 2016-05-19T14:52:20Z sz0 joined #scheme 2016-05-19T14:52:27Z JoshS: But I guess there are always little packages popping up in java or c++ 2016-05-19T14:52:54Z JoshS: because SO many programmers work in those languages that everything ends up in java or c++ 2016-05-19T14:53:01Z teurastaja: probably because common lisp just evolves while scheme is slow to evolve? just a guess.... 2016-05-19T14:53:23Z JoshS: I don't differentiate between lisp and scheme 2016-05-19T14:53:27Z teurastaja: ugh.... dont say java... 2016-05-19T14:53:29Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T14:53:29Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-05-19T14:53:33Z JoshS: they're too close to worry about the difference 2016-05-19T14:53:41Z karswell` joined #scheme 2016-05-19T14:53:51Z JoshS: unless you need call/cc >.> 2016-05-19T14:54:37Z teurastaja: yeah i want call/cc but i think ill have to push/pop the registers one by one myself :'( 2016-05-19T14:55:53Z teurastaja: anyone familiar with microcontrollers could probably find a solution 2016-05-19T14:56:21Z JoshS: I worry that a lot of systems say they're implementing continuations but get a different semantics when they implement it by stack copying instead of spaghetti stacks. Doesn't stack copying restore the values of local variables that wouldn't be restored the other way 2016-05-19T14:56:58Z JoshS: Having a construct with poorly defined semantics hidden away seems very very wrong 2016-05-19T14:57:11Z teurastaja: what do you mean using spaghetti stacks? 2016-05-19T14:57:23Z JoshS: stack on the heap 2016-05-19T14:57:27Z teurastaja: oh 2016-05-19T14:57:28Z groovy2shoes: I prefer the term cactus stacks myself 2016-05-19T14:57:31Z groovy2shoes: google it 2016-05-19T14:57:53Z teurastaja: i know what a heap is and i know what a spaghetti is 2016-05-19T14:58:41Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, I don't think that's usually a problem... what you get on the stack are the variable *bindings*, the actual storage locations are on the heap, so they referents get changed either way 2016-05-19T14:58:54Z vydd_ joined #scheme 2016-05-19T14:59:21Z JoshS: groovy2shoes ok for scheme, maybe 2016-05-19T14:59:28Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, yeah 2016-05-19T14:59:35Z JoshS: what about continutions in mono or continuations in smalltalk 2016-05-19T14:59:49Z groovy2shoes: those are their problems 2016-05-19T14:59:50Z teurastaja: the problem is 30kB SRAM 2016-05-19T14:59:53Z groovy2shoes: this is #scheme 2016-05-19T15:00:23Z JoshS: And I didn't know that about locations all being in the heap 2016-05-19T15:00:44Z JoshS: the famous scheme that uses copying is guile 2016-05-19T15:00:51Z teurastaja: josh: it depends on how the system was engineered 2016-05-19T15:01:44Z teurastaja: if i want a heap, i have to initialize it and if i want a program in it i have to bootstrap it 2016-05-19T15:02:00Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:02:04Z JoshS: the definition of "continuation" should make the semantics clear one way or the other. Even saving locals and restoring them could be very useful, but it's not the standard definition. 2016-05-19T15:02:16Z JoshS: Even worse to have something useful and not be able to rely on it. 2016-05-19T15:03:58Z syjulian joined #scheme 2016-05-19T15:04:08Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, from the report: "An identifier can name either a type of syntax or a location where a value can be stored. ... An identifier that names a location is called a variable and is said to be bound to that location." 2016-05-19T15:05:29Z groovy2shoes: thus, change the value of a variable in any thread, and it's observable from any other thread 2016-05-19T15:05:54Z groovy2shoes: because it doesn't change the location it's bound to, but the value that's stored there 2016-05-19T15:07:15Z cmatei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T15:07:20Z teurastaja: technically if setjmp and longjmp are reentrant on my machine then i dont need anything else to implement call/cc right? 2016-05-19T15:07:21Z cmatei_ joined #scheme 2016-05-19T15:07:35Z JoshS: I don't find that totally convincing. A compiler could optimize a non-captured variable into a set location in a stack 2016-05-19T15:07:49Z groovy2shoes: teurastaja, setjmp and longjmp only work within the dynamic extent of the setjmp 2016-05-19T15:07:56Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-19T15:08:08Z groovy2shoes: call/cc's continuations can be invoked from anywhere and called more than once 2016-05-19T15:08:19Z JoshS: then, if continuations are saved by copying the stack, the value of that variable get's captured in that saved continuation 2016-05-19T15:08:41Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, if that happens, then it no longer complies with the standard 2016-05-19T15:08:57Z groovy2shoes: optimizations are allowed, but they have to preserve the semantics 2016-05-19T15:09:26Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2016-05-19T15:09:27Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-19T15:09:27Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-19T15:09:35Z teurastaja: what would you use if you had 30kB of space for everything? 2016-05-19T15:09:52Z groovy2shoes: teurastaja, I would use C 2016-05-19T15:10:10Z JoshS: in real life when I had that little space I used assembly 2016-05-19T15:10:16Z JoshS: but that was decades ago 2016-05-19T15:10:23Z dpk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T15:10:27Z groovy2shoes: (ideally, I'd use something better than C, like Modula-3 or Rust, but in the real world, 30KB typically means C) 2016-05-19T15:10:41Z jackdaniel: microscheme produces assembly for avr 2016-05-19T15:10:48Z JoshS: people used to use forth but I'm not a fan 2016-05-19T15:10:51Z teurastaja: of course its C and assembly im talking about 2016-05-19T15:10:58Z JoshS: tiny basic interpreters! 2016-05-19T15:11:01Z teurastaja: no other options here 2016-05-19T15:11:10Z profan: forth can be crammed into a seriously small space too 2016-05-19T15:11:16Z teurastaja: its 8051 assembly 2016-05-19T15:11:29Z groovy2shoes: ugh forth 2016-05-19T15:11:46Z groovy2shoes: one of those things that's philosophically cool, but then you use it and you're like "what in the actual fuck?" 2016-05-19T15:12:22Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-19T15:12:23Z dpk joined #scheme 2016-05-19T15:12:30Z JoshS: is scheme 48 the super tiny one? 2016-05-19T15:13:21Z ecraven: JoshS: no 2016-05-19T15:13:30Z teurastaja: so... how best to save the environment and comply with continuations while not clobbering the static RAM and still garbage-collect with 30kB? 2016-05-19T15:13:57Z AlexDenisov quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:15:27Z taylan: JoshS: I think the super tiny one is TinyScheme 2016-05-19T15:15:35Z taylan: (no joke, actually) 2016-05-19T15:15:48Z JoshS: googled that: "TinyScheme was used as the core of Direct Revenue's adware, making it the world's most widely distributed Scheme runtime" 2016-05-19T15:15:56Z dmiles: does anyone know if this implements Scheme enough to be usefull ? https://github.com/zick/ImplOfR6RSAppA/blob/master/r6rs-sem.swi 2016-05-19T15:16:17Z groovy2shoes: taylan, JoshS: chibi can be configured at build time to be as small as tinyscheme, and it's much faster 2016-05-19T15:16:34Z taylan: groovy2shoes: good to know, thanks 2016-05-19T15:16:46Z groovy2shoes: dmiles, yes, it does, but it's notably lacking syntax-rules 2016-05-19T15:16:57Z groovy2shoes: dmiles, (I actually do have a version that has syntax-rules, though) 2016-05-19T15:17:05Z JoshS: wow, scheme in prolog 2016-05-19T15:17:20Z dmiles: groovy2shoes: wow that is awesome 2016-05-19T15:17:33Z JoshS: r6rs in 1000 lines! 2016-05-19T15:18:20Z groovy2shoes: dmiles, yeah, it even has a few extensions to r5rs, too... string ports, property lists, "packages" (basically halfway to first-class environments), compiler/evaluator hooks, ... 2016-05-19T15:19:52Z dmiles: good, you are seriously awesome did you initally write that version on github or did you start with it? 2016-05-19T15:21:03Z dmiles: (starting with it and then adding in the r5rs and things) 2016-05-19T15:21:45Z br0kenman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:21:52Z groovy2shoes: dmiles, you talking about tiny7? 2016-05-19T15:22:49Z dmiles: was talking about ImplOfR6RSAppA but googling tiny7 now 2016-05-19T15:22:53Z groovy2shoes: for tiny7 I started with TinyScheme (already mostly r5rs) and started adding r7rs things while filling in the missing r5rs things, but it's not 100% r7rs yet 2016-05-19T15:23:43Z groovy2shoes: don't know if it ever will be, to be honest... I've kind of moved on to developing my own language 2016-05-19T15:25:24Z tmtwd joined #scheme 2016-05-19T15:25:54Z dmiles: But you coded this schemne in prolog? (in case we mixed topics where i was asking about a scheme impl i found written in prolog) 2016-05-19T15:26:27Z groovy2shoes: me? no, I coded some of tiny7 2016-05-19T15:29:07Z dmiles: ah, i knew my assumption was a bit too good to be true :) JoshS, i'd liek to hear what you think of that impl if you get a chance to try it 2016-05-19T15:30:56Z groovy2shoes: dmiles, oh, shit, I missed your link... thought you were talking about tinyscheme -_- sorry for the confusion 2016-05-19T15:31:26Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2016-05-19T15:32:17Z dmiles: groovy2shoes: well you gave me hope that perhaps it might be sane to bootstrap a r7rs with r5rs 2016-05-19T15:32:46Z groovy2shoes: oh, that's totally sane 2016-05-19T15:33:18Z groovy2shoes: the hardest part is probably the module system... for everything else added to r7rs, you most likely already have the necessary plumbing 2016-05-19T15:34:02Z groovy2shoes: (and in the case of most r5rs implementations, you *might* already have the plumbing for libraries, too... most impls have a module system of some sort already, and even tinyscheme has "packages", which I was planning to repurpose for the task) 2016-05-19T15:34:19Z dmiles: sadly i dont knew much about scheme as i should by now.. I have takens what peopel called scheme before and worked on it towrards a common lisp impl 2016-05-19T15:40:41Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T15:43:24Z dmiles: but soon enough i am going to have to really learn and add to that r6rs a few extensions to r5rs, too... string ports, property lists, "packages" (basically halfway to first-class environments), compiler/evaluator hooks, ... 2016-05-19T15:44:00Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:44:03Z dmiles: but would be neat if JoshS or someone else does to 2016-05-19T15:44:48Z groovy2shoes: doesn't r6rs already have string ports? 2016-05-19T15:47:19Z stamourv_ is now known as stamourv 2016-05-19T15:47:20Z stamourv quit (Changing host) 2016-05-19T15:47:20Z stamourv joined #scheme 2016-05-19T15:47:51Z dmiles: ah proably :P but the text "string" does nto appear in that file at https://github.com/zick/ImplOfR6RSAppA/blob/master/r6rs-sem.swi 2016-05-19T15:50:19Z pepton3 joined #scheme 2016-05-19T15:52:28Z fugue0 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:53:38Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-19T15:55:25Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-19T15:56:20Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-19T15:57:25Z DGASAU: JoshS: I can answer that question about symbolic math pretty easily. 2016-05-19T15:57:36Z DGASAU: JoshS: because all of them started before Prolog was invented. 2016-05-19T15:59:21Z DGASAU: groovy2shoes: yes, you really don't want to use Forth. 2016-05-19T15:59:33Z groovy2shoes: no, I do not 2016-05-19T15:59:49Z groovy2shoes: Kitten is a new concatenative language that actually looks pretty, awesome, though 2016-05-19T16:00:01Z groovy2shoes: and Mantra looks super cool, too, though abandoned :( 2016-05-19T16:00:18Z DGASAU: The only thing to learn from Forth is "threaded code." 2016-05-19T16:00:18Z bogdanm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T16:00:27Z JoshS: forth, the best thing since sliced haggis? 2016-05-19T16:00:30Z DGASAU: All the rest is mostly bullshit. 2016-05-19T16:00:47Z groovy2shoes: you could just as well learn threaded code from old basic interpreters on early micros 2016-05-19T16:00:55Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T16:01:13Z DGASAU: IIRC, ZX BASIC didn't do that. 2016-05-19T16:01:30Z groovy2shoes: I know Apple II basic and early MS basics did 2016-05-19T16:01:31Z DGASAU: You must be speaking of some specific model of machine. 2016-05-19T16:01:50Z DGASAU: No idea about Apple II. 2016-05-19T16:03:18Z DGASAU: In any case, once you understand how the threaded code works, you can do it for any language and throw all the rest from Forth away. 2016-05-19T16:03:47Z DGASAU: Forth might be a good idea in sixties, when there were no effective parsing algorithms known. 2016-05-19T16:04:48Z DGASAU: In 1970 LL(1) was invented. Since then you can implement sane programming language and avoid the need to warp your brain. 2016-05-19T16:06:21Z amgarching joined #scheme 2016-05-19T16:06:34Z JoshS: Forth was invented by an astronomer who probably simply didn't know any computer science 2016-05-19T16:07:06Z DGASAU: That's hard to assess. 2016-05-19T16:07:24Z JoshS: someone made a little forth interpreter in lua that uses the variable parameter lists as the stack 2016-05-19T16:07:25Z DGASAU: In any case, in those days parsing was quite convoluted enterprise. 2016-05-19T16:07:43Z DGASAU: If you wanted to do it properly and fast. 2016-05-19T16:07:51Z JoshS: the other day. That's fast but it limits the stack size to 100 elements or so 2016-05-19T16:08:12Z JoshS: :/ lua actually stores the parameter size in a single signed byte 2016-05-19T16:08:28Z DGASAU: It's hard to tell whether it is Forth. :) 2016-05-19T16:08:39Z DGASAU: It is the same as with Lisp or Scheme. 2016-05-19T16:08:52Z DGASAU: You can write something Lisp-like or Scheme-like, yet it is not. 2016-05-19T16:09:06Z DGASAU: In particular, Forth should implement "does>". 2016-05-19T16:09:08Z JoshS: I started a tiny Joy like language that way too before I realized the stack limitation 2016-05-19T16:09:26Z DGASAU: The latter is quite convoluted to implement. 2016-05-19T16:09:40Z JoshS: Joy? Not really 2016-05-19T16:09:47Z JoshS: oh you mean does> 2016-05-19T16:09:51Z DGASAU: "does>" 2016-05-19T16:10:06Z DGASAU: Forth without "does>" is like... I don't know... 2016-05-19T16:10:08Z JoshS: there are parts of forth that I would run screaming from... I remember being confused when I learned about it 2016-05-19T16:10:12Z DGASAU: Scheme with dynamic scoping. 2016-05-19T16:10:38Z JoshS: sounds bad 2016-05-19T16:10:48Z DGASAU: Or better, without call/cc. 2016-05-19T16:11:07Z JoshS: there are tiny lisps with dynamic scoping. xlisp maybe? 2016-05-19T16:11:27Z JoshS: People who think that's better are confused. 2016-05-19T16:11:35Z DGASAU: Sure, but do you really consider them serious to any extent? 2016-05-19T16:12:03Z JoshS: No, but only because I think their languages are bad. 2016-05-19T16:12:16Z DGASAU: The only Lisp with dynamic scoping that is worth considering is the dialect Reduce is written in. 2016-05-19T16:12:20Z DGASAU: Only because of Reduce. 2016-05-19T16:12:33Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-19T16:12:45Z JoshS: Well here is a problem... how to handle the variables captured in symbolic math expressions. 2016-05-19T16:12:58Z JoshS: or similar metaprogramming problems 2016-05-19T16:13:03Z DGASAU: Sure. 2016-05-19T16:13:06Z JoshS: that's usually done with dynamic scoping 2016-05-19T16:13:13Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T16:13:31Z JoshS: There might be a better solution, but it would be deeply involved 2016-05-19T16:13:31Z DGASAU: It is still not clear whether it is a good idea. 2016-05-19T16:13:33Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-19T16:13:38Z JoshS: and require changes to the language 2016-05-19T16:13:46Z DGASAU: Definitely. 2016-05-19T16:14:00Z JoshS: I want to work on that. 2016-05-19T16:14:17Z JoshS: For the sake of metaprogramming, not for symbolic math. 2016-05-19T16:21:01Z turbopape joined #scheme 2016-05-19T16:22:04Z turbopape quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-19T16:24:36Z amgarching quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T16:27:42Z amgarching joined #scheme 2016-05-19T16:34:10Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T16:37:57Z masoudd joined #scheme 2016-05-19T16:40:10Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-19T16:40:33Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-19T16:43:18Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-19T16:43:51Z jcowan: ho hey ho 2016-05-19T16:45:27Z masoudd: Hey, I'm learning scheme. I read that you can define a variable like this: (define var 123) but to change the value you use (set! var 321). But I can also do (define var 321). Why can I define a variable twice? Does it differ from using (set! ...)? 2016-05-19T16:45:48Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T16:45:49Z jcowan: Because the REPL allows looser semantics than actual programs do. 2016-05-19T16:46:17Z jcowan: Redefining a variable in a program or library may or may not work, but not being able to redefine things in the REPL makes it much less useful. 2016-05-19T16:46:59Z masoudd: I see. So I shouldn't rely on redefinition. 2016-05-19T16:47:02Z jcowan: By "may or may not" I mean "depending on what Scheme implementation you use" 2016-05-19T16:47:24Z masoudd: I see. Thank you. 2016-05-19T16:47:25Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2016-05-19T16:48:27Z jcowan: Yes. Of course I'm talking about global redefinition here. You can always redefine a name in an inner scope, which does not affect the value of the name in an outer scope. 2016-05-19T16:48:39Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2016-05-19T16:49:23Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-19T16:49:27Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T16:51:25Z JoshS quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T17:00:54Z spooq joined #scheme 2016-05-19T17:01:31Z spooq quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-19T17:03:37Z ggole quit 2016-05-19T17:05:45Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-19T17:11:00Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-05-19T17:33:31Z pjb joined #scheme 2016-05-19T17:42:33Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T17:42:54Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T17:45:13Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-19T17:48:34Z scarygelatin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T17:49:18Z AlexDenisov quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T17:50:59Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-19T17:54:41Z AlexDeni_ joined #scheme 2016-05-19T17:57:19Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T17:57:21Z AlexDenisov quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T17:59:08Z pobivan joined #scheme 2016-05-19T18:00:29Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-05-19T18:08:13Z masoudd: Does define always add to global scope? or does it define the variable in the current scope? 2016-05-19T18:08:14Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-19T18:08:40Z wingo: the latter 2016-05-19T18:09:29Z masoudd: Then why is the point of letrec instead of let? 2016-05-19T18:09:34Z masoudd: what is* 2016-05-19T18:10:16Z masoudd: Can't we define the procedures we want inside the let scope? why use letrec instead 2016-05-19T18:10:17Z wingo: so there are two different but related things 2016-05-19T18:10:28Z wingo: define at the top level, and define in a nested scope 2016-05-19T18:10:30Z jcowan: letrec permits the identifiers to refer to one another, whereas let does not 2016-05-19T18:11:08Z wingo: define at the top level makes a new binding if none exists, and otherwise sets the current binding to a new value 2016-05-19T18:11:23Z wingo: in a lexical scope define becomes part of the letrec of its scope 2016-05-19T18:11:39Z wingo: that's approximate language of course 2016-05-19T18:11:50Z wingo: but in a nested scope define desugars to letrec 2016-05-19T18:11:56Z jcowan: to letrec*, technically 2016-05-19T18:11:57Z wingo: or letrec*, but that's a detail 2016-05-19T18:11:59Z wingo: yeah 2016-05-19T18:12:32Z jcowan: as I noted earlier, redefinition at the top level isn't guaranteed to work either 2016-05-19T18:13:25Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, pong 2016-05-19T18:13:35Z masoudd: OK seems like there is much more I don't understand 2016-05-19T18:13:50Z jcowan: masoudd: These are subtleties not essentials 2016-05-19T18:14:35Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: I've read EuLisp 0.991 with great interest. It is indeed pretty, and especially so because it seems it would (modulo #f vs. (), which you want to change anyway) be easily translatable into Scheme, particularly R7RS-large. 2016-05-19T18:15:14Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, yeah... the only things I miss from scheme are the disjoint booleans, the naming conventions, and hygienic macros 2016-05-19T18:15:22Z groovy2shoes: but I plan to add delimited continuations as well 2016-05-19T18:15:52Z jcowan: Macros aren't really defined: you could just introduce Scheme macros by fiat. 2016-05-19T18:15:54Z groovy2shoes: and a third level with a bigger standard library, à la R7RS-large 2016-05-19T18:16:00Z jcowan nods. 2016-05-19T18:16:04Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-19T18:16:22Z jcowan: I haven't been able to find anything saying whether it is a Lisp-1 or Lisp-2, but I might have just overlooked that. 2016-05-19T18:16:58Z groovy2shoes: that was actually the plan... I was going to lift syntax-case and syntax-rules as-is, most likely (though maybe something even simpler for the level-0 language... maybe like syntax-case but without the pattern matching, but I don't have details yet) 2016-05-19T18:17:06Z groovy2shoes: it's a Lisp-1 2016-05-19T18:17:13Z jcowan: I'd say rather: lift syntax-rules only 2016-05-19T18:17:21Z jcowan: you can do a whale of a lot with syntax-rules 2016-05-19T18:17:24Z groovy2shoes: not general enough 2016-05-19T18:17:36Z groovy2shoes: also, not foundational enough 2016-05-19T18:18:01Z jcowan: I also couldn't find an explanation of how the class precedence list is computed in level 1 2016-05-19T18:18:06Z jcowan: I would adopt C3 2016-05-19T18:18:08Z masoudd: I'm reading http://ds26gte.github.io/tyscheme/index-Z-H-8.html#node_chap_6 In there the author defines two mutually recursive procedures in the global scope. Then to quote: "If we wanted the above procedures as local variables, we could try to use a let form" then he points out that we can't use let or let* to define two mutually recursive procedures. He introduces letrec as the solution. But If we can use define inside a simple let, why not do it the way 2016-05-19T18:18:09Z masoudd: he did it with two defines but this time inside a let? 2016-05-19T18:18:22Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, C3 was my plan :) 2016-05-19T18:18:26Z jcowan: Good. 2016-05-19T18:18:41Z groovy2shoes: (that's the one for Dylan, right? the one Python uses now?) 2016-05-19T18:18:47Z jcowan: I mean, let the l0 language have syntax rules only 2016-05-19T18:19:07Z groovy2shoes: I was aiming for something more "basic" than even syntax rules 2016-05-19T18:19:38Z groovy2shoes: a procedural hygienic system without pattern matching, but in which you can explicitly break hygiene if/when necessary 2016-05-19T18:20:12Z groovy2shoes: "syntax-case minus the case" ;) 2016-05-19T18:21:48Z groovy2shoes: something that can express both syntax-case and syntax-rules, but conceptually simple and relatively easy to implement (just a hair more difficult than traditional defmacro) 2016-05-19T18:24:28Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-05-19T18:26:30Z leppie quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:31Z Kooda quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:31Z jjf quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:31Z copec quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:32Z mario-goulart quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:32Z jorrakay quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:32Z jim quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:32Z marlun quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:32Z fadein quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:38Z jorrakay joined #scheme 2016-05-19T18:26:42Z Kooda joined #scheme 2016-05-19T18:26:51Z marlun joined #scheme 2016-05-19T18:26:55Z jim joined #scheme 2016-05-19T18:26:57Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2016-05-19T18:27:20Z leppie joined #scheme 2016-05-19T18:27:41Z fadein joined #scheme 2016-05-19T18:28:07Z groovy2shoes: masoudd, I think it's just a matter of style, really 2016-05-19T18:28:18Z jcowan: It is an open question whether syntax-case and explicit-renaming can express one another 2016-05-19T18:28:34Z groovy2shoes: If I'm not mistaken, historically you couldn't used defining forms below the top level 2016-05-19T18:29:08Z jcowan: True of define-syntax 2016-05-19T18:29:09Z groovy2shoes: in, e.g., Lisp 1.5 I think DEFINE was top-level only (but not 100% sure, mind) 2016-05-19T18:29:28Z groovy2shoes: so things like LABELS and letrec made more sense 2016-05-19T18:29:31Z jcowan: Oh, you mean before R1RS. 2016-05-19T18:29:48Z groovy2shoes: yeah, I mean like way back in the history of Lisp 2016-05-19T18:30:54Z copec joined #scheme 2016-05-19T18:31:06Z emmanueloga quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:31:28Z wingo: why eulisp? :) 2016-05-19T18:31:42Z groovy2shoes: at some point someone realized that definitions *do* make sense local to a body 2016-05-19T18:31:45Z harmchop quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:32:11Z groovy2shoes: wingo, I like it a lot... probably my ideal language after a few tweaks from Scheme :) 2016-05-19T18:32:13Z jcowan: Right enough. Indeed, R0RS and R1RS don't allow it, but internal define appears in R2RS, which is the first standard of Scheme-as-we-know-it. 2016-05-19T18:32:15Z groovy2shoes: why not EuLisp? 2016-05-19T18:33:07Z groovy2shoes: masoudd, does that make sense? just use whichever one you like better :) 2016-05-19T18:33:29Z jcowan: It's an excellent stab at getting OO deep down into Scheme, like Oaklisp 2016-05-19T18:33:37Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, any other thoughts on EuLisp? (I'll be honest that I haven't gotten around to 0.991 yet, just 0.99 so far) 2016-05-19T18:34:14Z harmchop joined #scheme 2016-05-19T18:34:18Z emmanueloga joined #scheme 2016-05-19T18:34:48Z groovy2shoes: wingo, on a tangent, I love your blog :) 2016-05-19T18:34:57Z masoudd: groovy2shoes: Yes. It does. Thanks for the insight. wingo and jcowan too 2016-05-19T18:35:03Z wingo: groovy2shoes: a fair question! i guess it's choosing a cadre of hackers to hack with you. if you are ok with going it alone, then eulisp becomes possible :) though there are still questions as to how to evolve the thing 2016-05-19T18:35:07Z groovy2shoes: masoudd, np 2016-05-19T18:35:08Z jcowan: I confess to not reading the chapter on concurrency, as I hate low-level thread/lock based concurrency with a passion 2016-05-19T18:35:13Z wingo: groovy2shoes: tx for the kind words :) 2016-05-19T18:35:52Z wingo: like if you find a bit that's gnarly in eulisp, if you're ok with taking the banner and making the next version or whatever 2016-05-19T18:36:01Z groovy2shoes: wingo, it's one of the few blogs I read regularly, along with Matt Might and prog21 2016-05-19T18:36:43Z wingo: aw shucks ;) 2016-05-19T18:37:05Z groovy2shoes: wingo, my intention is to make a new dialect that's a spiritual successor to EuLisp (in a technical sense, not a political one), and really a bastard child of EuLisp and Scheme, possibly some ideas from other dialects/languages as I see fit 2016-05-19T18:37:13Z wingo: it's pretty fun to implement languages and all of us are quijotes in a way here, so please don't take my thoughts in too negative a light 2016-05-19T18:37:20Z wingo: cool! 2016-05-19T18:37:25Z wingo: sounds like fun :) 2016-05-19T18:37:53Z groovy2shoes: it's called Evelin (Expressive, Vertible, and Extensible List and (artificial) Intelligence Notation 2016-05-19T18:38:37Z groovy2shoes: ) 2016-05-19T18:40:19Z wingo: neat 2016-05-19T18:40:23Z jcowan: Also, I think depending on how ambitious you are, you could develop your language directly as a set of R6RS or R7RS libraries. You'd have to accept the native syntax for libraries, but that's isomorphic to EuLisp's. 2016-05-19T18:40:33Z jcowan: "Vertible"? 2016-05-19T18:40:48Z groovy2shoes: "open to change", as in "convertible" 2016-05-19T18:41:06Z jcowan: ah 2016-05-19T18:41:24Z groovy2shoes: I know it's not particularly productive on its own now, at least not in American English, but it's still got a definition ;) 2016-05-19T18:41:25Z jcowan: not used in English since 1667, but what the hey 2016-05-19T18:43:04Z groovy2shoes: same root as for "version", I believe 2016-05-19T18:43:07Z jcowan: That's way easier than writing it from scratch and will surely produce a faster version 2016-05-19T18:43:17Z jcowan: Yes, Latin _vertere_ 'turn' 2016-05-19T18:43:35Z jcowan: "But were it not better that God Almighty should annihilate the Individuals of this middle vertible Order, as you call it, as soon as they lapse into Sin?" 2016-05-19T18:43:39Z groovy2shoes: I'm hoping to wind up with a commercial version of it at some point 2016-05-19T18:44:09Z groovy2shoes: there will be a free / open-source implementation, and when I get around to setting up the company, I'll either have a proprietary compiler or just sell support contracts (haven't decided yet) 2016-05-19T18:45:02Z jcowan: Well, at any rate you can leverage Chez or Chicken or whatever to get it started if you have a module set 2016-05-19T18:45:03Z groovy2shoes: honestly, I'd love to make it open source if I can subsist on support contracts, but that remains to be seen 2016-05-19T18:45:52Z groovy2shoes: I'm also writing an introductory programming book that uses it :p 2016-05-19T18:47:18Z groovy2shoes: it originally used Racket, but... now I need to market Evelin, so... 2016-05-19T18:52:15Z groovy2shoes: wingo, I actually bought a hardcopy of the Guile manual B) 2016-05-19T18:52:28Z wingo: wow! i have one of those too! 2016-05-19T18:52:30Z groovy2shoes: it's nicely done, and a good form factor 2016-05-19T18:52:34Z wingo: a funny artifact 2016-05-19T18:52:56Z groovy2shoes: the hardcopy of the Elisp manual I have is not a nice form factor... it's enormous 2016-05-19T18:53:02Z groovy2shoes: it doesn't fit upright on my shelf 2016-05-19T18:53:11Z groovy2shoes: or in my bookbag 2016-05-19T18:53:24Z groovy2shoes: not helped by the fact they used a 12 pt font -_- 2016-05-19T18:54:13Z DGASAU: Wah! 2016-05-19T18:54:52Z DGASAU: Slavic languages use v(ъ)rъt for "turn". 2016-05-19T18:55:09Z groovy2shoes: I'd prefer 11 or even 10 pt if the damn thing would fit in my bookbag 2016-05-19T18:55:28Z groovy2shoes: DGASAU, Indo-European language family, bro 2016-05-19T18:55:41Z DGASAU: groovy2shoes: I know. :) 2016-05-19T18:56:00Z DGASAU: It's just a little bit out of sudden. :) 2016-05-19T18:56:13Z groovy2shoes: heheh 2016-05-19T18:57:20Z groovy2shoes: Russian was cool... my professor was awesome 2016-05-19T18:57:22Z DGASAU: Vertetj/vorochatj in Russian, wroci-something in Polish. 2016-05-19T18:57:26Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:57:37Z groovy2shoes: but I had to drop it when I got to Russian literature... I just couldn't keep up with the pace of the reading required 2016-05-19T18:58:31Z groovy2shoes: but I had a set of 3 textbooks for Russian I & II, which cost me a total of $20... cheapest textbooks ever, made me a very happy student 2016-05-19T18:58:33Z teurastaja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [SeaMonkey 2.33.1/20150321194901]) 2016-05-19T18:58:50Z groovy2shoes: though they were from the Soviet era, so there were a lot of quaint things in them lol 2016-05-19T18:58:56Z jcowan: The Soviet Union flooded the whole world with cheap high-quality textbooks for learning Russian 2016-05-19T18:59:14Z DGASAU wonders what they suggested to read from Russian literature... 2016-05-19T18:59:40Z DGASAU: "Я русский бы выучил только за то, что им разговаривал Ленин." :D 2016-05-19T19:00:18Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-19T19:00:34Z groovy2shoes: DGASAU, I don't remember all of them... the one I was working on when I dropped was about some dude who was a menial worker at the beginning of the Red revolution 2016-05-19T19:00:44Z jcowan: "The more radical they are, the more bourgeois they like their art." --playwright Tom Stoppard (born Tomáš Straussler) 2016-05-19T19:02:10Z groovy2shoes: there was another one that was about some dude not Russian, though... maybe Kazahk? Uzbek? don't remember, but that one was actually short lol 2016-05-19T19:02:19Z groovy2shoes: Voroni? does that sound like an author? 2016-05-19T19:02:51Z DGASAU: That sounds like "crows" but not as a surname... 2016-05-19T19:03:34Z groovy2shoes: I don't have any of the books anymore, unfortunately :I 2016-05-19T19:03:35Z DGASAU: jcowan: is that the author of "The coast of Utopia?" 2016-05-19T19:03:57Z jcowan: Indeed 2016-05-19T19:04:37Z DGASAU: Surprisingly good piece about Russia. 2016-05-19T19:05:06Z jcowan: although that line comes from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travesties which is my favorite of his plays (not that I have read/seen them all) 2016-05-19T19:05:59Z jcowan: I used to subscribe to an off-Broadway theater here in NYC (pay $$$, get season tickets, basically) 2016-05-19T19:06:06Z groovy2shoes: "A study of selected poems, plays, short stories, and novels by major Russian writers of the twentieth century, such as Checkhov, Gorky Blok, Mayakovsky, Esenin, Zamyatin, Olesha, Bulgakov, Babel, Pilnyak, Pasternak, Solzhenitsyn, Evtushenko, and Voznesensky." 2016-05-19T19:06:19Z jcowan: They used to hand out questionnaires asking how we liked the play etc. One question was "What plays should we do?" 2016-05-19T19:06:23Z DGASAU: Normally, western authors write utter bullshit about Russia. 2016-05-19T19:06:28Z jcowan: I wrote down Travesties, and next year they actually did it! 2016-05-19T19:07:01Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T19:07:50Z groovy2shoes: DGASAU, "Normally, western authors write utter bullshit" FTFY 2016-05-19T19:08:07Z DGASAU: (Not that Russians don't write the same. Like Solzhenicyn, for instance.) 2016-05-19T19:08:44Z groovy2shoes: I feel like the quality of literature has only gone down the toilet since the invention of mass-market printing technology 2016-05-19T19:09:01Z groovy2shoes: and will only continue to do so with the advent of the Internet 2016-05-19T19:09:09Z groovy2shoes: and the ebook 2016-05-19T19:09:21Z groovy2shoes: average quality of literature, I should say 2016-05-19T19:09:38Z C-Keen: the last russian author I have read was vladimir sorokin, a weird kafkaesk scifi something novel 2016-05-19T19:09:44Z C-Keen: or should I say novella 2016-05-19T19:09:45Z DGASAU: groovy2shoes: you need to take survival effect into account. 2016-05-19T19:10:04Z groovy2shoes: yeah, I suppose you're right 2016-05-19T19:10:12Z DGASAU: Bad books are not preserved as well as good ones. 2016-05-19T19:10:40Z C-Keen: groovy2shoes: that's because the old copying was tiresome and worked as a filter. I am sure there have been bad books written at all times. and a lot of them 2016-05-19T19:12:08Z DGASAU: C-Keen: ...as if Sorokin wrote anything not weird. 2016-05-19T19:12:38Z groovy2shoes: it's just... so easy now to get anything out on the market 2016-05-19T19:12:45Z groovy2shoes: you don't even have to go through a publisher 2016-05-19T19:12:50Z jcowan: But by the same token not easy to get it noticed. 2016-05-19T19:12:52Z DGASAU: At least I don't remember anything (that's why I don't read Sorokin). 2016-05-19T19:13:01Z groovy2shoes: and it wouldn't be so unnerving if people didn't have a tendency to believe everything they read 2016-05-19T19:14:13Z groovy2shoes: like, how the hell does Graham Hancock keep getting shit published? 2016-05-19T19:14:14Z C-Keen: DGASAU: heh that's true :) 2016-05-19T19:14:23Z C-Keen: groovy2shoes: who's that 2016-05-19T19:14:42Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-19T19:14:53Z C-Keen: DGASAU: it is very immersive though 2016-05-19T19:15:19Z groovy2shoes: he's a nutjob/crackpot who claims to have discovered indisputable evidence that all ancient civilizations were founded by remnants of an even ancienter "lost civilization" that died out in the Biblical flood 2016-05-19T19:15:25Z turtleman joined #scheme 2016-05-19T19:15:45Z C-Keen: groovy2shoes: ah. why bother 2016-05-19T19:15:48Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-19T19:15:52Z groovy2shoes: people buy his books and believe the shit he spews 2016-05-19T19:16:03Z C-Keen: that's been true at all times though 2016-05-19T19:16:19Z groovy2shoes: and anyone who tells his fans otherwise gets written off as someone who's bought in to the lies of mainstream science 2016-05-19T19:16:42Z Riastradh: Charlatans have existed for millennia and will continue to exist and continue to dupe people... 2016-05-19T19:16:44Z C-Keen: groovy2shoes: don't bother 2016-05-19T19:16:49Z groovy2shoes: well, this last bit I'm not claiming is new at all 2016-05-19T19:17:05Z C-Keen: stay calm and read other books 2016-05-19T19:17:11Z groovy2shoes: I'm just saying, people believe anything they read (also not something I claim to be new) 2016-05-19T19:17:14Z C-Keen: or as an exercise do read them 2016-05-19T19:17:29Z groovy2shoes: C-Keen, these people are out there VOTING!! 2016-05-19T19:17:32Z C-Keen: it is good to expose oneself to opposing views 2016-05-19T19:18:23Z groovy2shoes: C-Keen, I think I remember playing you on an old shareware disk 2016-05-19T19:18:30Z groovy2shoes: you used to fit on a floppy, right? 2016-05-19T19:18:35Z C-Keen: yep 2016-05-19T19:18:44Z groovy2shoes: with two or three other games? 2016-05-19T19:18:47Z jcowan: Then there is Fomenko 2016-05-19T19:19:13Z C-Keen: the last episodes were too big for much else IIRC 2016-05-19T19:19:18Z DGASAU thought about mentioning Fomenko yet decided not to. 2016-05-19T19:19:28Z jcowan: and the guy who thinks that English has always been spoken in English, and that Latin was invented as a monkish language 2016-05-19T19:19:41Z C-Keen: jcowan: heh tell me more :) 2016-05-19T19:19:52Z DGASAU: C-Keen: about Fomenko? 2016-05-19T19:20:00Z C-Keen: ykhaylo Ivanovych Fomenko? 2016-05-19T19:20:03Z C-Keen: *M 2016-05-19T19:20:49Z DGASAU: No, that one is Anatolij Timofeevich(?). 2016-05-19T19:20:56Z jcowan: He thinks that history literally has repeated itself several times, and what we think we know about ancient times is a "distorted copy" in the records of much more recent events 2016-05-19T19:21:16Z C-Keen: Анатолий Тимофеевич Фоменко 2016-05-19T19:21:20Z DGASAU: jcowan: that's wrong description. 2016-05-19T19:21:25Z jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Fomenko) 2016-05-19T19:21:29Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T19:21:44Z C-Keen: jcowan: sounds like something the wachowsky bros. ripped the matrix idea from 2016-05-19T19:22:38Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-19T19:22:54Z DGASAU: The idea is that historical documents/evidences reflect the same sequence of events in a way that creates illusion as if those were different events happening at different times. 2016-05-19T19:26:21Z C-Keen: how does this work with the dating of the materials the documents have been created with_ 2016-05-19T19:26:33Z jcowan: It doesn't 2016-05-19T19:27:00Z C-Keen: qed 2016-05-19T19:27:27Z anabain: Nationalism takes strange forms... 2016-05-19T19:27:41Z turtleman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T19:29:50Z DGASAU: C-Keen: you have very few documents before 1500. 2016-05-19T19:30:44Z DGASAU: A lot of documents that talk about years before that are rewritten by hand with originals destroyed or lost. 2016-05-19T19:31:09Z C-Keen: DGASAU: hieroglyphs in aegypt? australian paintings? mayan stones? 2016-05-19T19:31:29Z C-Keen: that new chronology seems to be a bit european centric 2016-05-19T19:31:42Z C-Keen: chinese scriptures? 2016-05-19T19:32:10Z anabain: And there's another thing: ideas take centuries to be shaped and matured. Thinking isn't like laying eggs. 2016-05-19T19:32:21Z C-Keen: for some it is :) 2016-05-19T19:32:39Z groovy2shoes: *coughcoughdonaldtrumpcoughcough* 2016-05-19T19:32:50Z anabain: :) 2016-05-19T19:33:28Z nowhere_man joined #scheme 2016-05-19T19:34:07Z DGASAU: C-Keen: I don't remember details how they explain those artefacts. 2016-05-19T19:35:23Z DGASAU: They primary target is medieval and antique history since in almost all cases it is recovered from sources like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle 2016-05-19T19:35:40Z C-Keen: and he probably didn't know about the neanderthal hand paintings in spain 2016-05-19T19:35:46Z DGASAU: Note that there exists only 3 copies all coming from later times. 2016-05-19T19:35:58Z DGASAU: Perhaps even less. 2016-05-19T19:36:24Z DGASAU: Only by special linguistic methods you can reconstruct earlier texts. 2016-05-19T19:37:18Z DGASAU: That it contains mythological stories complicates the matter even more. 2016-05-19T19:37:41Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-19T19:40:15Z C-Keen: apropos, what about texts written before that? What about the tipitaka? There are loads of so called artefacts and if those cannot be included in the theory, it's probably not correct :) 2016-05-19T19:41:21Z eli` joined #scheme 2016-05-19T19:42:38Z DGASAU: C-Keen: again, I have no idea how they interpret it. 2016-05-19T19:43:03Z eli` is now known as eli 2016-05-19T19:43:03Z eli quit (Changing host) 2016-05-19T19:43:03Z eli joined #scheme 2016-05-19T19:43:09Z DGASAU: It is bullshit in essence, even though it is quite elaborately constructed bullshit. 2016-05-19T19:43:51Z C-Keen: DGASAU: that's the fascinating part. Think about how much energy and time one has to spend with that matter to produce this 2016-05-19T19:43:55Z DGASAU: Their original criticism was taken into account long ago. 2016-05-19T19:43:58Z C-Keen: DGASAU: but then again we are in #scheme... 2016-05-19T19:44:17Z DGASAU: C-Keen: they are professors, so they have time. 2016-05-19T19:46:02Z DGASAU: The original author was sentenced life time jail term, so he had plenty of time too. 2016-05-19T19:49:12Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T19:49:24Z karswell joined #scheme 2016-05-19T19:51:40Z mumptai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T20:00:30Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-19T20:01:09Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-19T20:06:01Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-05-19T20:06:22Z mumptai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T20:07:34Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-05-19T20:10:50Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-19T20:14:33Z pepton3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T20:31:42Z masoudd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T20:36:28Z AlexDeni_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T20:37:47Z _sjs quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-19T20:40:00Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-05-19T20:41:25Z turtleman joined #scheme 2016-05-19T20:42:25Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T20:44:20Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-19T21:01:02Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T21:05:44Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-19T21:10:34Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T21:16:45Z monod joined #scheme 2016-05-19T21:16:58Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T21:22:14Z Neet quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T21:24:14Z Neet joined #scheme 2016-05-19T21:25:05Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-19T21:26:03Z mmc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T21:27:37Z syjulian quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-19T21:48:16Z mumptai quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-05-19T21:49:00Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-19T21:53:15Z Flippers quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T21:53:17Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/MinimalSyntaxCaseCowan shows the minimal syntax-case system with no bells and whistles 2016-05-19T21:55:19Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: Also see SRFI 72 2016-05-19T21:59:08Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-19T21:59:46Z Flippers joined #scheme 2016-05-19T22:05:22Z sondr3 quit (Quit: Quit) 2016-05-19T22:14:42Z turbofail joined #scheme 2016-05-19T22:15:15Z jao quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T22:15:33Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T22:17:41Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-19T22:19:00Z RainBowww joined #scheme 2016-05-19T22:19:10Z RainBowww: ;) 2016-05-19T22:19:37Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T22:22:39Z monod quit (Quit: Sto andando via) 2016-05-19T22:25:13Z scarygelatin joined #scheme 2016-05-19T22:26:12Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-19T22:26:53Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T22:27:12Z wasamasa: RainBowww: you suck 2016-05-19T22:27:28Z RainBowww: taylan look 2016-05-19T22:27:38Z RainBowww: wasamasa wrote bad things 2016-05-19T22:27:43Z RainBowww: !!! 2016-05-19T22:27:59Z wasamasa: even more than the guy who tried to troll #haskell 2016-05-19T22:28:10Z RainBowww: and it has no connection with scheme 2016-05-19T22:28:17Z RainBowww: maybe write 2016-05-19T22:28:24Z RainBowww: "you suck at scheme" 2016-05-19T22:28:41Z wasamasa: no, then I'd be giving you credit 2016-05-19T22:29:04Z RainBowww: wasamas please be nice to me... 2016-05-19T22:29:24Z RainBowww: and other schemers... 2016-05-19T22:30:24Z wasamasa: yup, you've confirmed my image of you now with that, speaking of other schemers although I haven't mentioned any of them :P 2016-05-19T22:30:39Z wasamasa: a bit more brightness in trolls would be a welcome change :D 2016-05-19T22:32:18Z RainBowww: and be nice to other schemes 2016-05-19T22:32:21Z RainBowww: and blueprints 2016-05-19T22:32:26Z RainBowww: sorry i have to play 2016-05-19T22:32:29Z RainBowww: game 2016-05-19T22:39:07Z aeth: wow the troll is still here? 2016-05-19T22:40:22Z aeth: wasamasa: ok, if you want clever trolling... :-p 2016-05-19T22:40:37Z wasamasa: aeth: I vastly prefer that, yes 2016-05-19T22:40:51Z wasamasa: aeth: because it's at the very least amusing 2016-05-19T22:40:55Z aeth: Why is Scheme only generic on numbers and not on anything else? Is there a point to map vs. map-vector vs. map-string? 2016-05-19T22:41:25Z aeth: Also, why favor lists rather than calling it map-list, so that map can be used for a generic procedure on implementations that add such things? 2016-05-19T22:41:59Z groovy2shoes: are these real questions, or are you trolling? 2016-05-19T22:42:07Z groovy2shoes: s/trolling/attempting to troll/ 2016-05-19T22:42:16Z aeth: Those are real questions I have with the language, which makes it clever trolling. 2016-05-19T22:42:27Z groovy2shoes: not trolling in the least 2016-05-19T22:43:02Z groovy2shoes: as far as I can tell, it's all historical reasons 2016-05-19T22:43:17Z groovy2shoes: in the beginning, Scheme had lists, but not vectors or strings 2016-05-19T22:44:09Z groovy2shoes: even the idea of a numeric tower came much later 2016-05-19T22:44:20Z groovy2shoes: so, for a long time, there were *no* generic functions at all 2016-05-19T22:44:33Z groovy2shoes: and when vectors and strings were added, this was the case: no generic functions 2016-05-19T22:45:05Z groovy2shoes: when the numeric tower was introduced, it was an import from Common Lisp, refined a bit 2016-05-19T22:45:21Z aeth: That's such a strange oversight, to only have lists. Vectors, especially numerical vectors (e.g. float) are so useful for performance that you'd think that they'd come early in a language. 2016-05-19T22:45:26Z groovy2shoes: so now, suddenly, there's generic procedures for numbers 2016-05-19T22:45:28Z aeth: But that makes sense, that the numerical tower was added separately 2016-05-19T22:46:12Z groovy2shoes: but, if you tried to go back and make map, vector-map, etc. unified into a generic procedure, someone is bound to cry foul: "BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY!!" 2016-05-19T22:46:52Z aeth: groovy2shoes: Wow, usually Common Lisp is where backwards compatibility is an issue, but I guess here they benefited from the ugly backwards compatible names, i.e. mapcar instead of map for list mapping 2016-05-19T22:47:34Z groovy2shoes: well, early on in Scheme backcompat wasn't an issue at all 2016-05-19T22:47:40Z groovy2shoes: it was a decided break from tradition 2016-05-19T22:47:56Z groovy2shoes: but once we got to... r4rs or so, people started caring 2016-05-19T22:48:19Z aeth: That semes to be one reason why people didn't like r6rs 2016-05-19T22:48:23Z groovy2shoes: and the Steering Committee, at the very least, very much cares about compatibility with IEEE 1178-1990 2016-05-19T22:49:42Z groovy2shoes: honestly, I'd love to have more generic procedures in Scheme, and user-defineable ones, too 2016-05-19T22:50:00Z groovy2shoes: but it seems like nowadays if you try to do anything other than R5RS, people start shouting the Clinger Clause at you 2016-05-19T22:51:15Z groovy2shoes: "YOU'RE PILING FEATURE ON TOP OF FEATURE!!" "what? I added one feature!" "RESTRICTIONS! UNNECESSARY!! USERS!! SRFI!!!" 2016-05-19T22:51:58Z aeth: Maybe in Scheme language design. 2016-05-19T22:52:23Z aeth: In Scheme usage, what I've noticed is consolidation behind Guile, Chicken, and Racket. I'm not sure I've seen Scheme written for another Scheme in the wild 2016-05-19T22:53:32Z groovy2shoes: I don't see the point of even having a standard if it's going to leave so many things to implementations that your shit is tied to one implementation regardless 2016-05-19T22:53:42Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2016-05-19T22:54:01Z aeth: groovy2shoes: It's useful. 2016-05-19T22:54:18Z groovy2shoes: I was honestly okay with the size of R6RS... could've maybe been a *little* smaller, but a lot of the things it added I thought were welcome 2016-05-19T22:54:36Z groovy2shoes: my problems with it amounted to "the way this shit was added makes it feel like notscheme" 2016-05-19T22:55:07Z groovy2shoes: for example, the way it all but precluded a REPL 2016-05-19T22:55:30Z aeth: I have about half of an r7rs-small Scheme that is mostly just transpiled to CL to use as a sandboxed scripting language. 2016-05-19T22:55:57Z aeth: The main thing that's lacking completely is hash tables. It's also lacking a lot that are in a few common SRFIs. I think SRFI 1. 2016-05-19T22:56:52Z groovy2shoes: 7-small definitely has srfi-1 2016-05-19T22:56:57Z groovy2shoes: or do you mean your impl? 2016-05-19T22:57:04Z aeth: There's no equivalent to CL's upgraded arrays, though, so it would be of limited utility as a full language without extensions, though. 2016-05-19T22:57:06Z groovy2shoes: because 7-small doesn't have hashtables 2016-05-19T22:57:18Z aeth: groovy2shoes: I think 7-small is still lacking parts of SRFI-1 for some reason 2016-05-19T22:57:25Z groovy2shoes: ah, yeah 2016-05-19T22:57:28Z aeth: And that doesn't make that much sense 2016-05-19T22:57:29Z groovy2shoes: parts of it, I think you're right 2016-05-19T22:57:32Z aeth: It's lacking some basic things 2016-05-19T22:57:46Z groovy2shoes: they just made some of the exising list functions follow srfi-1, iirc 2016-05-19T22:57:47Z aeth: Idk what the point is to add half of SRFI-1 or something, when you have to add the rest anyway 2016-05-19T22:58:00Z aeth: Might as well just add the whole thing 2016-05-19T22:58:04Z aeth: Maybe that's what -large is doing 2016-05-19T22:58:10Z groovy2shoes: I think so 2016-05-19T22:58:43Z groovy2shoes: at the time -small was released, I was vehement that it should have hashtables, but nowadays I think it's better left for the large 2016-05-19T22:59:02Z groovy2shoes: in fact, in light of the large, I now think the small should've been a little smaller :p 2016-05-19T22:59:13Z aeth: Iirc, I think r7rs-small only has 8-bit (byte) arrays, which is a bit of a problem. Code that's too clever might want to use bit-arrays, or maybe would want some other multiple of 8 for the byte 2016-05-19T22:59:17Z tax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T22:59:36Z aeth: I'm not saying that Scheme should have everything CL has, that defeats the point, but there are some basic sequence stuff that the CL standard does better 2016-05-19T22:59:37Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-19T22:59:48Z aeth: I rarely use lists unless in macros. 2016-05-19T23:00:25Z groovy2shoes: have you registered to vote for the first chapter of the large language? 2016-05-19T23:00:52Z groovy2shoes: it's all about data structures, so if you there's something you want to see in there, you need to make sure you comment and vote! 2016-05-19T23:00:56Z aeth: Even for just iterating over something, single-type vectors (e.g. float or integers of a fixed size) are usually the better choice. I think it has to do with the cache 2016-05-19T23:01:09Z aeth: groovy2shoes: Is there any sort of qualification process? 2016-05-19T23:01:37Z groovy2shoes: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/scheme-reports-wg2/N2g2zn0lb_U/e3L5l7hyBAAJ 2016-05-19T23:01:37Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/wdpaHwQmMp 2016-05-19T23:01:39Z aeth: groovy2shoes: Because I'm not sure I qualify to vote on something, all I have is half of a Scheme... the easy half. 2016-05-19T23:03:28Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-19T23:09:21Z groovy2shoes: aeth, I'm in the process of designing a Lisp... would you be willing to tell me all your thoughts on sequences/vectors/arrays/what-have-you? 2016-05-19T23:09:38Z groovy2shoes: how do they work *ideally* in Lisp, for you? 2016-05-19T23:12:41Z JoshS: groovy2shoes, I want to see vectors that have the things usual higher level languages - you can append, you can concatenate, you can delete from. Maybe you can even use as a queue 2016-05-19T23:13:12Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, cool, I've got that in the works already :) anything else? 2016-05-19T23:13:14Z JoshS: I don't see any need for fixed length anything 2016-05-19T23:14:00Z JoshS: I don't feel like I have a good enough feel for how to do streams and algorithms on them to have an opinion 2016-05-19T23:14:16Z JoshS: I'm sure there are good ways, but I don't really know them 2016-05-19T23:14:43Z JoshS: I tend to punt in real life and just process whole data sets in stages all at once, cache be damned 2016-05-19T23:14:57Z JoshS: Because that's so much easier 2016-05-19T23:15:05Z aeth: groovy2shoes: I like the way Common Lisp handles sequences with one exception. I don't like how you can't (portably) extend the sequence class. Obviously, if you don't have CLOS, the generics will have to work a bit differently. 2016-05-19T23:15:49Z groovy2shoes: I'll have something very much like CLOS 2016-05-19T23:15:56Z groovy2shoes: and everything will be a class 2016-05-19T23:16:02Z groovy2shoes: well, an instance of a class 2016-05-19T23:16:09Z groovy2shoes: MOP, too 2016-05-19T23:16:14Z aeth: I think sequences are as important as numbers as far as being generic goes, but beyond that I can't really think of that much of a need for generics. 2016-05-19T23:16:14Z JoshS: If you want my opinion for exotic things, I have some love for "amb" and logic programming and the idea that you could have a search and save leaves and revisit the computation later 2016-05-19T23:16:25Z JoshS: logic vars? 2016-05-19T23:16:26Z aeth: Maybe certain things that are handled the same in alists and hash tables would be useful 2016-05-19T23:16:41Z JoshS: basically there are cool things in prolog 2016-05-19T23:16:44Z JoshS: too 2016-05-19T23:16:53Z JoshS: like constraint searches 2016-05-19T23:16:54Z groovy2shoes: aeth, I thought about having vectors be as JoshS described, akin to "lists" in Python basically 2016-05-19T23:17:17Z groovy2shoes: aeth, and then having arrays, which would be n-dimensional and homogenous 2016-05-19T23:17:21Z JoshS: I wish I understood the Curry language 2016-05-19T23:17:30Z JoshS: that's functional + logic 2016-05-19T23:17:35Z aeth: The one thing that CL does horribly, horribly wrong is multi-dimensional arrays. 2016-05-19T23:17:36Z aeth: Imo 2016-05-19T23:17:54Z RainBowww: aeth you are biggest troll and joke please dont offend me 2016-05-19T23:18:02Z RainBowww: and dont call me troll you noob 2016-05-19T23:18:06Z RainBowww: -.- 2016-05-19T23:18:08Z JoshS: How about an amb with saveable searches? 2016-05-19T23:18:27Z aeth: (The only thing with arrays, I mean.) 2016-05-19T23:18:31Z JoshS: not really savable but... you could do some in parallel 2016-05-19T23:18:33Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T23:18:54Z groovy2shoes: aeth, possible reader syntax for arrays would be #n:t[ ...n... [ ... ] [ ... ] ... ] ...n...] ; n being number of dimensions, t being the class of the elements (instances of subclasses are allowed) 2016-05-19T23:19:08Z JoshS: Not save leaves, just name the whole search and have more than one 2016-05-19T23:19:32Z groovy2shoes: aeth, do you mean it should not have multidimensional arrays? or that it just shouldn't have them? 2016-05-19T23:19:58Z JoshS: groovy2shoes, how about stuff for metaprogramming 2016-05-19T23:20:01Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, I was thinking about having something akin to minikanren built in 2016-05-19T23:20:29Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, I'm just thinking about sequences right now, though... there will be hygienic macros, eval, etc. for metaprogramming 2016-05-19T23:20:36Z JoshS: a "quote" that combines with closures and captures the VALUES of variables along with their names 2016-05-19T23:20:54Z JoshS: See, I'm giving away my own language ideas 2016-05-19T23:21:02Z JoshS: I should keep them close to my chest 2016-05-19T23:21:02Z groovy2shoes: that last one makes no sense to me 2016-05-19T23:21:07Z JoshS: as secrets :p 2016-05-19T23:21:57Z JoshS: well quote doesn't say "does this symbol have a value in the current environment" 2016-05-19T23:22:01Z JoshS: it just takes an atom 2016-05-19T23:22:14Z fugue0 joined #scheme 2016-05-19T23:22:22Z JoshS: but if it DID, then you could capture expressions LIVE 2016-05-19T23:22:24Z groovy2shoes: yeah, and if you want to evaluate as a variable, you omit the quote 2016-05-19T23:22:38Z JoshS: Yeah what if you don't want to evaluate it YET 2016-05-19T23:22:43Z JoshS: you want to take the expression apart 2016-05-19T23:22:48Z JoshS: analyse it 2016-05-19T23:22:56Z JoshS: change it maybe 2016-05-19T23:22:57Z groovy2shoes: then you quote it and evaluate it later? I don't understand what you're getting at 2016-05-19T23:22:58Z JoshS: save it 2016-05-19T23:23:18Z JoshS: Well think about symbolic math 2016-05-19T23:23:27Z JoshS: an equation isn't just symbols 2016-05-19T23:23:47Z JoshS: the symbols have meaning and those meanings are permanent 2016-05-19T23:23:50Z aeth: groovy2shoes: CL multidimensional arrays are awkward to use. e.g. you can't map them or reduce them afaik. And you have to displace them to deal with a row etc. 2016-05-19T23:24:12Z JoshS: What if we could handle code the way symbol math packages handle equations 2016-05-19T23:24:52Z groovy2shoes: aeth, so, multidimensional arrays are a good idea, then, but they have to be done better than CL did? 2016-05-19T23:25:03Z aeth: I think they're technically not sequences, so all of the good things sequences have aren't usable with CL multidimensional arrays. So e.g. elt (generic for sequences) can only work on flat arrays, and aref doubles for multidimensional arrays and simple arrays that are also sequences. Which is strange, too. 2016-05-19T23:25:22Z aeth: So elt isn't simply a more generic aref 2016-05-19T23:25:35Z aeth: (Since aref can access multiple dimensions) 2016-05-19T23:25:46Z groovy2shoes: hmm 2016-05-19T23:26:03Z groovy2shoes: thing is, I can think of multiple different ways an n-dim array can be turned into a sequence 2016-05-19T23:26:04Z aeth: So they sort of break the whole generic hierarchy (by making it not a hierarchy) and they can't use sequence generics 2016-05-19T23:26:39Z JoshS: then you quote it and evaluate it later? I don't understand what you're getting at 2016-05-19T23:26:47Z JoshS: do you understand now? 2016-05-19T23:26:53Z groovy2shoes: JoshS, no 2016-05-19T23:26:57Z JoshS: :< 2016-05-19T23:27:25Z JoshS: Some people would say that fexprs were the answer 2016-05-19T23:27:26Z groovy2shoes: I can't really think of any meaningful thing you could do with an identifier other than: quote it and get a symbol or evaluate it and get a value 2016-05-19T23:27:38Z JoshS: I'm saying do both at the same time 2016-05-19T23:27:53Z groovy2shoes: here's the thing about fexprs: you can divide them into "safe" and "unsafe" fexprs 2016-05-19T23:27:55Z JoshS: make it a name and pointer to its memory 2016-05-19T23:28:20Z JoshS: then take the expression and consider it fair game to analyse rather than just evaluate 2016-05-19T23:28:29Z groovy2shoes: it can be proved that procedural macros are precisely equivalent to the set of "safe" fexprs 2016-05-19T23:28:40Z JoshS: so there's a third and forth thing other than quote or evaluate 2016-05-19T23:28:44Z JoshS: there is analyse 2016-05-19T23:28:47Z JoshS: and there is rewrite 2016-05-19T23:28:50Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T23:29:02Z JoshS: there's a fifth thing 2016-05-19T23:29:05Z JoshS: save for later 2016-05-19T23:29:15Z groovy2shoes: that's not to say that "unsafe" fexprs are useless, but they have problems: it's impossible to implement them efficiently, and they can change the behavior of the evaluator at runtime 2016-05-19T23:29:43Z JoshS: 1. there is no such thing as inefficient, there is only compiler tech that hasn't caught up 2016-05-19T23:29:46Z groovy2shoes: what does it mean to "analyze an identifier"? 2016-05-19T23:29:52Z JoshS: 2. slow is ok because processors are fast 2016-05-19T23:30:02Z turbofail: haha 2016-05-19T23:30:08Z JoshS: one analyses an equation 2016-05-19T23:30:11Z groovy2shoes: neither of those is true 2016-05-19T23:30:14Z JoshS: finds the best method 2016-05-19T23:30:25Z JoshS: same as what people do in math 2016-05-19T23:30:32Z groovy2shoes: wasamasa, you wanted a clever troll, didn't you? 2016-05-19T23:30:57Z JoshS: I have different interests than you I guess 2016-05-19T23:31:08Z JoshS: I'll have to write my language to get the features I want to play with 2016-05-19T23:31:18Z JoshS: it doesn't matter how slow analysing metaprograms are 2016-05-19T23:31:24Z JoshS: because metaprograms become programs 2016-05-19T23:31:28Z JoshS: and then they're fast 2016-05-19T23:31:32Z groovy2shoes: the problem with "unsafe" fexprs is that they can modify the evaluator at runtime, which prohibits compilation 2016-05-19T23:31:52Z JoshS: tracing jits are to handle unstable programs 2016-05-19T23:32:15Z groovy2shoes: you can't exactly reach back in time and recompile your binary, then swap out the current running process and resume the new program at the same point it *should* be running for continuity 2016-05-19T23:32:18Z JoshS: they don't need to find "always true" they're happy with "true for now" 2016-05-19T23:32:46Z JoshS: with jits you don't need a binary 2016-05-19T23:32:48Z groovy2shoes: tracing JITs are an option for *speed*, but not for *memory* 2016-05-19T23:32:59Z groovy2shoes: JITs trade lots of memory for their speed 2016-05-19T23:33:05Z JoshS: ok 2016-05-19T23:33:19Z JoshS: my laptop has 16 gig of ram 2016-05-19T23:33:27Z JoshS: I've never ran out of memory even once 2016-05-19T23:33:34Z JoshS: no matter how much I run 2016-05-19T23:33:34Z groovy2shoes: ok, my server has 392 MB of RAM 2016-05-19T23:33:52Z groovy2shoes: sorry, but I'm designing my language to be useable on more than just JoshS's laptop 2016-05-19T23:34:22Z JoshS: tracing jits run on small machines right? 2016-05-19T23:34:27Z turbofail: not really 2016-05-19T23:34:27Z JoshS: they run under android 2016-05-19T23:34:50Z groovy2shoes: android does AOT compilation of the bytecode when you install the APK 2016-05-19T23:34:52Z turbofail: depends on what you mean by "small" i suppose 2016-05-19T23:35:02Z JoshS: I bet luajit is considered a tracing jit 2016-05-19T23:35:07Z groovy2shoes: yes, it is 2016-05-19T23:35:14Z JoshS: I bet whatever runs javascript in android is tracing 2016-05-19T23:35:32Z JoshS: luajit is small and for small machines... 2016-05-19T23:35:35Z JoshS: but ok 2016-05-19T23:35:48Z turbofail: v8 isn't a tracing jit iirc 2016-05-19T23:35:52Z JoshS: just telling you what toys I want to play with 2016-05-19T23:36:10Z JoshS: metaprogramming is a toy I want to play with 2016-05-19T23:36:37Z aeth: JoshS: there is definitely such a thing as slow 2016-05-19T23:36:47Z JoshS: And no matter how inefficient it is, it won't be as inefficient ad john shutts version of fexprs I bet 2016-05-19T23:36:53Z JoshS: *as 2016-05-19T23:37:04Z aeth: Sure any language can be fast if you pour enough money and time into it, but you can design things so that you don't have to spend as much money and time to make it fast 2016-05-19T23:37:29Z JoshS: aeth, but that design has already been done 2016-05-19T23:37:32Z groovy2shoes: v8 is a method jit 2016-05-19T23:38:14Z groovy2shoes: essentially, AOT-compiles to threaded code, but as each method is defined (a bit of an oversimplification, but that's the gist) 2016-05-19T23:38:33Z JoshS: Shutt's version of fexprs delays mapping names to environments so long that there is no permanent mapping even when running 2016-05-19T23:39:42Z JoshS: I just want to SAVE a pointer to both name and environment, not delay mapping between them 2016-05-19T23:39:46Z groovy2shoes: "I do have my own pseudo-prototype implementation, called SINK ("Scheme-based Interpreter for Not-quite Kernel"), meant to be mostly compatible with unextended R5R Scheme; it doesn't recognize some Kernel tokens, it's slow as molasses... it runs, which is more than I can say for the Java-based interpreter I started years ago and never found time to finish." 2016-05-19T23:39:53Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-19T23:39:53Z groovy2shoes: -- John Shutt's page on Kernel 2016-05-19T23:40:29Z JoshS: yep 2016-05-19T23:40:30Z aeth: What I look for in metaprogramming is concise, but fast code. 2016-05-19T23:40:31Z groovy2shoes: save the mapping where? you can already copy bindings 2016-05-19T23:40:51Z JoshS: in my new kind of quote... 2016-05-19T23:40:55Z aeth: Ideally, any application should be a few thousand lines at most to use the not-very-good LoC metric. Even large applications. 2016-05-19T23:41:30Z groovy2shoes: "slow as molasses" 2016-05-19T23:41:36Z groovy2shoes: fexprs are *inherently* slow 2016-05-19T23:42:53Z JoshS: say 「(a b c) means save ((a value-of-a) (b value-of-b) (c value-of-c)) 2016-05-19T23:43:13Z JoshS: in some sense 2016-05-19T23:43:53Z JoshS: not exactly a fexpr 2016-05-19T23:43:58Z groovy2shoes: fexprs: 1) require that the environment be passed as an argument, precluding static binding because the environment must be in a data structure useable by the fexpr; 2) need access to the full implementation at runtime, be it an interpreter or compiler, to evaluate arbitrary code 2016-05-19T23:44:03Z aeth: I'm not interested in anything that can be described as "inherently slow", though. 2016-05-19T23:44:22Z aeth: I program in Lisp languages because they're dynamic, but unlike Ruby and Python aren't inherently slow :-p 2016-05-19T23:44:39Z JoshS: or even 2016-05-19T23:44:49Z aeth: Some Common Lisps are comparable to Java and C# in performance. Some Schemes probably are, too. 2016-05-19T23:44:59Z aeth: But without needing a giant IDE to handle all the boilerplate 2016-05-19T23:45:07Z JoshS: say 「(a b c) means save ((a env-of-a) (b env-of-b) (c env-of-c)) allowing a to change and different expressions to mix 2016-05-19T23:45:27Z groovy2shoes: all that just to get the extra features you get on top of macros, which amount to "unsafe" fexprs (again, macros describe precisely the same set of functionality that "safe" fexprs do) 2016-05-19T23:45:50Z groovy2shoes: aeth, yeah 2016-05-19T23:45:53Z JoshS: you could have (a env-of-a) and (a different-env-different-a) and mix them in code 2016-05-19T23:45:57Z groovy2shoes: aeth, Chez Scheme is wicked fast 2016-05-19T23:46:20Z JoshS: what is a "safe" fexpr 2016-05-19T23:46:37Z aeth: I'm slightly incorrect. I don't think Python is inherently slow, it just has a slow interpreter. I think Ruby does things that makes in inherently slow though afaik 2016-05-19T23:46:42Z JoshS: I think what I have is "safe" 2016-05-19T23:46:55Z groovy2shoes: I do have my own pseudo-prototype implementation, called SINK ("Scheme-based Interpreter for Not-quite Kernel"), meant to be mostly compatible with unextended R5R Scheme; it doesn't recognize some Kernel tokens, it's slow as molasses... it runs, which is more than I can say for the Java-based interpreter I started years ago and never found time to finish. 2016-05-19T23:46:58Z groovy2shoes: damnit] 2016-05-19T23:47:04Z groovy2shoes: https://www.brinckerhoff.org/scraps/joe-marshall-on-FEXPRS-and-DEFMACRO.txt 2016-05-19T23:47:05Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/qpcEY7zTSv 2016-05-19T23:47:07Z JoshS: Ruby does the same things as lua and lua is fast 2016-05-19T23:47:11Z groovy2shoes: there. read that ^ 2016-05-19T23:47:40Z aeth: Lua's fast but when you're doing a language without macros you want tons of syntactic sugar and Lua has almost none. It lacks basic stuff like += which just results in discouraging long variable names, which is a bad thing. 2016-05-19T23:47:56Z JoshS: Fexprs in a dynamic binding environment are NOT safe 2016-05-19T23:49:09Z JoshS: you can't "save and run later" if you're depending on a dynamic binding environment 2016-05-19T23:49:29Z groovy2shoes: you *have* to have dynamic binding with fexprs 2016-05-19T23:49:45Z groovy2shoes: because otherwise, you can't pass a useable environment to the fexpr 2016-05-19T23:50:16Z JoshS: Kernel isn't dynamic binding in the sense I meant, it's lexical 2016-05-19T23:50:27Z groovy2shoes: you're talking about scope, not binding 2016-05-19T23:50:35Z JoshS: oh sorry 2016-05-19T23:50:53Z JoshS: back when there were fexprs, scope was dynamic 2016-05-19T23:51:07Z groovy2shoes: there still are fexprs 2016-05-19T23:51:17Z JoshS: and variables in equations in symbolic math packages are dynamic scope 2016-05-19T23:51:22Z JoshS: that's how people punt this 2016-05-19T23:51:24Z groovy2shoes: the unsafety of some fexprs has nothing to do with scope, though 2016-05-19T23:51:38Z JoshS: ^ not true though 2016-05-19T23:51:55Z JoshS: of "some" ? 2016-05-19T23:52:13Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-19T23:52:15Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T23:52:29Z groovy2shoes: "The problem with 2016-05-19T23:52:29Z groovy2shoes: FEXPRs is that they are far too powerful and place too many constraints 2016-05-19T23:52:29Z groovy2shoes: on the implementation. It was discovered that certain idiomatic uses of 2016-05-19T23:52:29Z groovy2shoes: FEXPRs were `safe' (with well-defined, intuitive semantics) whereas other 2016-05-19T23:52:29Z groovy2shoes: uses were `unsafe' (with vague semantics that rely on the existence of 2016-05-19T23:52:30Z groovy2shoes: meta-circular fixed points (yikes!) and were difficult to reason about). 2016-05-19T23:52:36Z groovy2shoes: One cannot effectively program with `unsafe' FEXPRs, so they fell 2016-05-19T23:52:38Z groovy2shoes: out of favor really quickly. `Safe' FEXPRs turn out to be the subset 2016-05-19T23:52:40Z groovy2shoes: of FEXPRs that can be understood as source->source translations. 2016-05-19T23:52:42Z groovy2shoes: Since macros provided that same power without the attendant problems, 2016-05-19T23:52:44Z groovy2shoes: they quickly became the preferred way to meta-program. With FEXPRs 2016-05-19T23:52:46Z groovy2shoes: no longer necessary, meta-circularity is no longer necessary and 2016-05-19T23:52:50Z groovy2shoes: EVAL no longer needs to operate on list structure." 2016-05-19T23:52:56Z groovy2shoes: whoops -_- 2016-05-19T23:53:02Z wasamasa: yooow 2016-05-19T23:53:10Z wasamasa: rock that backlog 2016-05-19T23:53:42Z aeth: wasamasa: now rate our trolling ;-) 2016-05-19T23:53:46Z JoshS: The way that guy writes I would never know what a fexpr was if I didn't already know 2016-05-19T23:53:59Z JoshS: yow! 2016-05-19T23:54:00Z wasamasa: aeth: nah, I'll go to sleep 2016-05-19T23:54:10Z groovy2shoes: because he assumes you know what an fexpr is, duh 2016-05-19T23:54:10Z wasamasa: aeth: need that energy for hacking scheme tomorrow 2016-05-19T23:54:58Z JoshS: anyway consider this problem, a fexpr saves what's handed it to run multiple times later 2016-05-19T23:55:16Z JoshS: but... the dynamically scoped environment keeps changing 2016-05-19T23:55:24Z JoshS: so the meaning of that code keeps getting ruined 2016-05-19T23:55:46Z JoshS: Or, say you want to mix code from different fexprs 2016-05-19T23:55:47Z groovy2shoes: it just has to be sure to save all the bindings it needs 2016-05-19T23:55:57Z JoshS: but each one relies on different bindings 2016-05-19T23:56:20Z JoshS: How do you write (+ A (binding 1) A (binding 2) ) 2016-05-19T23:58:18Z JoshS: That's what my special quote is for 2016-05-19T23:58:43Z JoshS: You also need an altered evaluator to handle these symbols 2016-05-19T23:58:57Z groovy2shoes: what? 2016-05-19T23:59:15Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T23:59:26Z JoshS: (+ A [from binding 1] A [different value, different binding]) 2016-05-19T23:59:46Z JoshS: (setq A [from a specific binding] ... 2016-05-20T00:00:05Z groovy2shoes: bindings in an environment have unique keys 2016-05-20T00:00:13Z groovy2shoes: there will only be one binding for A 2016-05-20T00:00:19Z groovy2shoes: in any given environment 2016-05-20T00:00:29Z JoshS: right, these are from different environments 2016-05-20T00:00:34Z JoshS: captured at different times 2016-05-20T00:00:38Z JoshS: but combined later 2016-05-20T00:01:04Z groovy2shoes: so then all you have to do is look up that identifier in the relevant environment 2016-05-20T00:01:19Z JoshS: how does (+) look something up 2016-05-20T00:01:20Z groovy2shoes: (+ (eval 'A env-1) (eval 'A env-2)) 2016-05-20T00:01:37Z JoshS: clunky way to do metaprogramming 2016-05-20T00:01:47Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T00:01:52Z groovy2shoes: how does this have anything to do with metaprogramming? 2016-05-20T00:02:19Z JoshS: ((eval '+ evn) (eval 'A env) (eval 'A env2)) 2016-05-20T00:02:39Z JoshS: metaprogramming was the point of a quote that captures environments 2016-05-20T00:02:48Z JoshS: so you can take live code apart 2016-05-20T00:02:54Z JoshS: change it 2016-05-20T00:02:55Z JoshS: save it 2016-05-20T00:03:00Z JoshS: catagorize it 2016-05-20T00:03:16Z JoshS: just the way that mathematicians do with mathematical queries 2016-05-20T00:05:02Z groovy2shoes: that's reflection, not metaprogramming 2016-05-20T00:05:03Z JoshS: if you have a series of constraints, you have to figure out what kind of constraints they are so you can pick the appropriate method to solve them 2016-05-20T00:05:31Z JoshS: I haven't seen the word "reflection" used that way 2016-05-20T00:05:50Z groovy2shoes: metaprogramming is, literally, "a program that programs" 2016-05-20T00:05:53Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T00:06:14Z groovy2shoes: reflection? maybe introspection? some shit like that 2016-05-20T00:06:15Z JoshS: reflection to me means you can query a running program about its interface and types 2016-05-20T00:06:35Z groovy2shoes: the ability for a running program to inspect its implementation 2016-05-20T00:06:49Z JoshS: Introspection is a nice work 2016-05-20T00:06:54Z JoshS: maybe I'll start using that 2016-05-20T00:07:04Z JoshS: since maybe people think that metaprogramming is one way 2016-05-20T00:07:11Z JoshS: you generate, not you walk and change 2016-05-20T00:08:38Z groovy2shoes: the difference is that with metaprogramming you hve different runtimes 2016-05-20T00:08:58Z groovy2shoes: like, your metaprogram runs, then the generated program runs 2016-05-20T00:09:11Z groovy2shoes: possibly with multiple layers of metaprograms 2016-05-20T00:09:22Z groovy2shoes: but all the runtimes are separate 2016-05-20T00:09:49Z groovy2shoes: but with introspection/reflection, that stuff happens all during your program's runtime 2016-05-20T00:10:13Z JoshS: you don't consider mixing my way to be metaprogramming then... 2016-05-20T00:10:18Z groovy2shoes: no 2016-05-20T00:10:23Z JoshS: I've seen the word "staging" 2016-05-20T00:10:28Z groovy2shoes: but I can see how it's similar 2016-05-20T00:10:55Z JoshS: I'm guessing you don't have a word for changing programs the way I'm suggesting... 2016-05-20T00:10:57Z groovy2shoes: and there's probably even some overlap in the kinds of problems you can solve with one or the other 2016-05-20T00:11:20Z JoshS: It's kind of possible in prolog, though in prolog variables become their values, so there's no pair involved 2016-05-20T00:11:41Z JoshS: once a variable has a value it IS that value. It's 0th order 2016-05-20T00:12:13Z groovy2shoes: "Introspection should not be confused with reflection, which goes a step further and is the ability for a program to manipulate the values, meta-data, properties and/or functions of an object at runtime." 2016-05-20T00:12:18Z groovy2shoes: thank you, wikipedia 2016-05-20T00:12:28Z JoshS: link please? 2016-05-20T00:12:38Z groovy2shoes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection_(computer_programming) 2016-05-20T00:13:05Z groovy2shoes: that quote was actually from the introspection page, but the word for what you're talking about is reflection 2016-05-20T00:13:49Z JoshS: they're talking about "type introspection" and not even value... 2016-05-20T00:14:08Z JoshS: ok 2016-05-20T00:14:13Z groovy2shoes: read the quote again 2016-05-20T00:14:17Z groovy2shoes: it specifically mentions values 2016-05-20T00:15:43Z JoshS: They have a long list of reflection in many languages, but none of those languages could anything like what I am interested in 2016-05-20T00:16:12Z RainBowww: ... 2016-05-20T00:17:14Z JoshS: hi rain 2016-05-20T00:17:14Z tax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T00:17:18Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T00:17:27Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-20T00:17:31Z RainBowww: hi 2016-05-20T00:17:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-20T00:18:05Z groovy2shoes: hmm wikipedia also seems to disagree with me on the notion of metaprogramming, saying that "reflection can be used to facilitate metaprogramming" and also referring to self-modifying code as a form of metaprogram 2016-05-20T00:18:30Z JoshS: sadly there are no examples of high level "self modifying code" 2016-05-20T00:18:51Z noethics: uh yeah there is 2016-05-20T00:18:54Z groovy2shoes: TIL, but in my own usage, I think I'll continue with my own definition, because it's more precise, and if there's one thing missing in the field of computation science, it's precision in language 2016-05-20T00:18:59Z noethics: java agents for example 2016-05-20T00:19:17Z JoshS: java agents? 2016-05-20T00:19:33Z noethics: a java program can load a class A, rewrite the A.class file, then load it and overwrite itself in memory 2016-05-20T00:20:05Z noethics: see ClassLoader, java agents, jvmti 2016-05-20T00:20:17Z groovy2shoes: java has a whole "Reflection API" 2016-05-20T00:20:32Z noethics: there are also examples of machine code self-encryption and polymorphism 2016-05-20T00:20:35Z noethics: specifically malware 2016-05-20T00:20:51Z noethics: see: flame 2016-05-20T00:24:41Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T00:26:33Z JoshS: anyway I take it that I'm the only one excited by this depth of metaprogramming or uhm what did groovy2shoes decide to call it? "reflection?" "introspection"? 2016-05-20T00:27:45Z noethics: this is pretty cool too 2016-05-20T00:27:46Z noethics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OCaml#MetaOCaml 2016-05-20T00:28:06Z noethics: idk if you would call that metaprogramming though 2016-05-20T00:28:13Z noethics: in the same sense 2016-05-20T00:33:03Z groscoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-20T00:33:43Z groscoe_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T00:37:27Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-20T00:38:30Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T00:40:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-20T00:42:41Z groovy2shoes: hey John 2016-05-20T00:42:41Z yrdz joined #scheme 2016-05-20T00:44:55Z groovy2shoes: nap time! 2016-05-20T00:53:03Z vydd quit 2016-05-20T00:58:22Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-20T00:58:48Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-20T01:00:11Z Flippers quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T01:01:12Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T01:02:12Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-20T01:03:05Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-20T01:03:22Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-20T01:10:00Z grettke quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T01:10:39Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-20T01:13:58Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-20T01:14:58Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T01:15:10Z shdeng joined #scheme 2016-05-20T01:19:24Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-20T01:19:28Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2016-05-20T01:19:30Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-20T01:20:50Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-20T01:27:16Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-20T01:29:56Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T01:37:55Z noethics quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T01:38:17Z noethics joined #scheme 2016-05-20T01:40:33Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-20T01:43:00Z turbofail quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.1.50.2)) 2016-05-20T01:47:45Z nolski_ is now known as nolski 2016-05-20T01:48:49Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T01:55:00Z tax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-20T01:55:56Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-20T01:57:19Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-20T01:58:14Z RainBowww left #scheme 2016-05-20T02:03:41Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-20T02:03:56Z turtleman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T02:05:31Z turbofail joined #scheme 2016-05-20T02:06:48Z tax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T02:07:09Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-20T02:07:31Z tax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T02:07:42Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-20T02:08:17Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-20T02:09:36Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'm not, i'm most lisp 2016-05-20T12:46:33Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-20T12:46:34Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-20T12:46:44Z rszeno: probably, i'm not the only one 2016-05-20T12:47:12Z TCZ: xd 2016-05-20T12:47:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-20T12:48:08Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2016-05-20T12:49:35Z z0d: it leaves us 215 2016-05-20T12:49:45Z z0d: oh, wait. there are new player! 2016-05-20T12:50:17Z igam: Yeah, me too. I'm mostly a Common Lisp programmer, even if I would gladly be hired to do emacs lisp or scheme. 2016-05-20T12:52:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T12:52:15Z rszeno who is interested in lisp is usualy interested in scheme too 2016-05-20T12:54:45Z groovy2shoes: except Kent Pitman 2016-05-20T12:55:43Z TCZ: 220 2016-05-20T13:03:02Z rszeno: presence is irrelevant, except of QA 2016-05-20T13:03:29Z anabain: I'm trying to learn Scheme because of Lilypond software, but as experts, what do you recommend learning, Scheme or Common Lisp? 2016-05-20T13:04:08Z rszeno: should i say both? 2016-05-20T13:04:23Z TCZ: racket 2016-05-20T13:04:51Z TCZ: but im not an expert xd 2016-05-20T13:05:52Z anabain: In relation to that, is there any explanation out there that makes a comparison between LISP dialects? 2016-05-20T13:05:59Z igam quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T13:06:11Z igam joined #scheme 2016-05-20T13:07:00Z rszeno: you can't find what is wrong in something if you can't compare, and everything have some issue 2016-05-20T13:07:06Z TCZ: http://hyperpolyglot.org/lisp 2016-05-20T13:07:08Z TCZ: xd 2016-05-20T13:08:23Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-05-20T13:13:00Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T13:15:20Z grublet joined #scheme 2016-05-20T13:16:39Z jackdaniel: nice link 2016-05-20T13:17:23Z jackdaniel: anabain: I believe that CL programmers will say CL, while Scheme programmers will advice Scheme 2016-05-20T13:18:23Z rszeno: not realy, both have some problems 2016-05-20T13:18:50Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-20T13:18:54Z jackdaniel: they have, but it doesn't stay in contradiction with what I've said 2016-05-20T13:21:14Z rszeno: true, but even choosing the best fit for a given task is difficult, more a user habit problem 2016-05-20T13:22:51Z jackdaniel: yes, but given that we know nothing about the task details, just a question "which language to pick" – my statement holds 2016-05-20T13:23:05Z jackdaniel: I agree you won't pick CL for microcontroler (microscheme would be a better fit) 2016-05-20T13:23:50Z groovy2shoes: both suck 2016-05-20T13:23:53Z jackdaniel: or even the only possible ;) 2016-05-20T13:23:53Z groovy2shoes: Evelin is the best 2016-05-20T13:24:06Z jackdaniel: heh, /me goes back to coding 2016-05-20T13:24:10Z groovy2shoes: I just need to hurry up and finish it ¬_¬ 2016-05-20T13:24:16Z xieyuheng quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160503215307]) 2016-05-20T13:24:43Z jackdaniel: groovy2shoes: any online resources on it? 2016-05-20T13:25:33Z groovy2shoes: jackdaniel, not yet, though the object system will be very close to TELOS 2016-05-20T13:25:58Z jackdaniel doesn't know telos :p 2016-05-20T13:26:13Z jackdaniel: please let me know when there will be something, I'm curious about new languages :) 2016-05-20T13:26:29Z groovy2shoes: it's extremely similar to CLOS, but a couple of differences 2016-05-20T13:26:35Z rszeno me too 2016-05-20T13:26:41Z groovy2shoes: notably, everything in Evelin is an instance of a class 2016-05-20T13:26:53Z groovy2shoes: I'll have stuff soon 2016-05-20T13:27:00Z jackdaniel: Julia does that I believe 2016-05-20T13:27:11Z jackdaniel: (I mean, makes everything a class) 2016-05-20T13:27:18Z groovy2shoes: I'm wrapping up my research now, and I'm co-developing a reference interpreter and the language definition 2016-05-20T13:27:40Z rszeno: scheme based? 2016-05-20T13:27:45Z groovy2shoes: the language definition is stratified, like in EuLisp 2016-05-20T13:28:13Z groovy2shoes: there are things from Scheme... most things come from EuLisp, a few things from CL, a few new things (afaik) 2016-05-20T13:28:20Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T13:28:35Z lritter joined #scheme 2016-05-20T13:28:49Z groovy2shoes: new for Lisp, anyway (again, afaik) 2016-05-20T13:29:01Z rszeno: acces based on capabities? 2016-05-20T13:29:19Z groovy2shoes: there are no systemd influences, no 2016-05-20T13:30:05Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T13:30:26Z rszeno interesting, :) 2016-05-20T13:30:42Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-20T13:31:12Z leppie quit 2016-05-20T13:31:37Z groovy2shoes: since the definition is stratified, I'll likely release the draft in phases 2016-05-20T13:32:03Z groovy2shoes: basis language first, canonical language second, application language last 2016-05-20T13:32:31Z jackdaniel: word domination after that :) 2016-05-20T13:32:34Z jackdaniel: world° 2016-05-20T13:32:46Z rszeno: formalised? 2016-05-20T13:32:51Z groovy2shoes: and I'm thinking about releasing "supplements" that aren't part of the definition, per se, and not mandatory for conforming implementations, but would be useful 2016-05-20T13:33:02Z groovy2shoes: a supplement would be along the lines of CLIM, for example 2016-05-20T13:33:40Z groovy2shoes: rszeno, hopefully... I'm not actually trained in formal semantics, so I've been trying to figure it out on my own, so it's likely there will be tons of mistakes in there 2016-05-20T13:36:06Z rszeno: any formalisation is usualy useless becuase both parts are hard, dev the language or formalisation 2016-05-20T13:36:30Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-20T13:36:50Z badkins_ is now known as badkins 2016-05-20T13:37:04Z rszeno but i'm hopefull, :) 2016-05-20T13:37:07Z groovy2shoes: yeah, I might just try to be really precise in prose for the draft 2016-05-20T13:37:32Z groovy2shoes: I like the idea of formal semantics, but I'm not sure how often any implementors actually bother with them 2016-05-20T13:40:40Z andrewvic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T13:44:05Z igam joined #scheme 2016-05-20T13:45:09Z igam: jackdaniel: you could pick CL to write a program to generate the program for the mcirocontroler. Just like they used CL to write GOAL to write Crash Bandicot. 2016-05-20T13:47:05Z jackdaniel: igam: yes, but it wouldn't be CL you'd be writing programs for the microcontroler 2016-05-20T13:47:24Z jackdaniel: the compiler will be written in CL 2016-05-20T13:49:05Z rszeno: :) what about doing same thing is c, to not say scheme 2016-05-20T13:49:24Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-20T13:49:28Z fugue0 joined #scheme 2016-05-20T13:49:39Z leif quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-20T13:50:04Z rszeno: still need all chain, parsing/nterpret/eval... etc 2016-05-20T13:50:12Z jackdaniel: that's what I've proposed originally – microscheme is a scheme subset in which you may write for avr 2016-05-20T13:50:16Z jackdaniel: http://microscheme.org/ 2016-05-20T13:50:38Z rszeno: aha 2016-05-20T13:50:38Z jackdaniel: and yes, using C is a common choice of course 2016-05-20T13:51:22Z rszeno: depend of user habits and his tools 2016-05-20T13:52:17Z rszeno i didn't know about microsheme, is interesting 2016-05-20T13:52:18Z jackdaniel: hard to argue with that 2016-05-20T13:53:12Z leppie joined #scheme 2016-05-20T13:56:54Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-20T13:57:52Z rszeno i would like to have a hardware spec lang in lisp or scheme 2016-05-20T13:58:55Z rszeno but this idea is probably wrong 2016-05-20T14:00:35Z leppie quit 2016-05-20T14:02:02Z igam: jackdaniel: the language you'd design for the microcontroller could easily be a subset of CL (even a very restricted subset of CL). Then you could develop and debug this program using CL and the CL IDE and tools. Only instead of using "COMMON-LISP" you would use "MY-MICROCONTROLLER-LISP" nicknamed "MMCL" ;-) 2016-05-20T14:02:14Z leppie joined #scheme 2016-05-20T14:02:50Z igam: rszeno: not a bad idea. An easy way to get it, is to start writing a sexpified syntax for VHDL or Verizon. Cf. Liskell. 2016-05-20T14:03:11Z jackdaniel: igam: I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just very infeasible (in my opinion of course) 2016-05-20T14:03:50Z igam: jackdaniel: we could have more tools to make it easier, but it's not conceptually difficult. 2016-05-20T14:04:46Z rszeno: good point, both. usualy is propretary hardware so in a copyright issue 2016-05-20T14:04:54Z jackdaniel: igam: maybe, I'm just sharing my personal opinion, that CL is very cool and all, but it's not slim (so to speak) 2016-05-20T14:06:34Z rszeno python start to piss me of 2016-05-20T14:07:33Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-20T14:07:58Z jcowan: hi de hi 2016-05-20T14:08:13Z rszeno: like scheme, lisp could be made as you need 2016-05-20T14:08:33Z rszeno: hi 2016-05-20T14:09:20Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T14:11:49Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-05-20T14:18:31Z igam: jackdaniel: granted. It'd be hard to write a conforming CL implementation in 64KB on a 8-bit processor. It'd be very hard to make one to generate (any CL code) to target a 1-KB RAM 4-bit processor. 2016-05-20T14:19:24Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-20T14:19:51Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-20T14:23:24Z rszeno: what is the bigest problem? ( i never tryed ) 2016-05-20T14:25:01Z _bogdanm_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T14:27:03Z rszeno sorry, unfortunately i must go 2016-05-20T14:27:14Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-20T14:32:46Z igam: For those interested, already the total size of the symbol names is close to 64 KB :-) (Of course, it could be compressed and optimized, but still, this would use a sizeable part of the RAM). 2016-05-20T14:36:00Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:41:24Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-05-20T14:42:05Z jcowan: igam: How small a system could Gold Hill Common Lisp run on? I know there was an implementation for the '286, but not how much memory it required. 2016-05-20T14:46:38Z grettke quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-20T14:47:15Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2016-05-20T14:51:08Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:56:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:57:28Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-20T14:58:50Z igam joined #scheme 2016-05-20T14:58:50Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-20T15:00:14Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:01:29Z igam: jcowan: it probably had at least 128 KB, perhaps 640 KB. MCL (or it's ancestor) could run on Mac with 68000 and 1 MB RAM. 2016-05-20T15:02:00Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-20T15:02:16Z AlexDenisov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-20T15:02:38Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-20T15:03:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:11:45Z br0kenman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:17:14Z pierpa: jcowan: I ran it on a 640KB machine 2016-05-20T15:17:32Z pierpa: ^ 8088 2016-05-20T15:18:07Z metaf5 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:20:42Z mejja: rudybot: What can you expect from the new LaserJet Series 2 printer? 2016-05-20T15:20:44Z rudybot: mejja: LJ4 is the HP LaserJet 4, the last good printer ever made. 2016-05-20T15:21:21Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-20T15:22:23Z mejja: rudybot: Seagate turns a small package into a big deal. Call now for 40 MB half-height drives. 2016-05-20T15:22:26Z rudybot: mejja: the new seagate drives have usb and fw 2016-05-20T15:27:21Z mejja: rudybot: Today, although there are occasional instances where larger memory is needed, increased memory is not a critical inhibitor for most software applications the way the old 64K limit was. The 640K DOS limit is more a sporadic inconvenience than an inhibiting restriction. 2016-05-20T15:27:26Z rudybot: mejja: dopamine reuptake inhibitor <- antidepressant? 2016-05-20T15:29:06Z mejja reads Info World, June 22 , 1987, Volume 9, Issue 25 2016-05-20T15:29:30Z mejja: rudybot: $2.95 2016-05-20T15:29:30Z rudybot: mejja: The current release is for x86 (Intel Architecture 32) machines only. We provide versions that run under the following operating systems: GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, IBM OS/2, and Microsoft Windows (95, 98, ME, NT, 2000, and XP). We no longer support DOS or Windows 3.x. 2016-05-20T15:31:10Z jcowan: MIT Scheme, it seems. 2016-05-20T15:31:25Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:31:27Z sethalves quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-20T15:31:58Z mejja: Hello Mr John "The Cowboy Coder" Wayne! 2016-05-20T15:33:40Z jlongste_ joined #scheme 2016-05-20T15:34:50Z jlongster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-05-20T15:38:31Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-20T15:39:14Z jlongste_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:41:29Z edw joined #scheme 2016-05-20T15:44:54Z edw: Anyone happen to know if there's a way to force Chibi to perform GC? I'm trying to do something that aspires to vague real-time-iness. 2016-05-20T15:47:35Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-20T15:48:23Z edw quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.0.93.1) 2016-05-20T15:49:25Z edw joined #scheme 2016-05-20T15:51:43Z mejja: edw: (begin (make-vector (expt 2 24)) #t) ?? 2016-05-20T15:51:48Z mejja laughs 2016-05-20T15:53:17Z edw: I'm on a raspi so `(expt 2 8)` may do... 2016-05-20T15:55:57Z AlexDenisov quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:56:06Z edw: Ah: (chibi ast) has a `gc` procedure. 2016-05-20T15:58:16Z edw: Wow, running that a lot sure slows things down... 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I'll check out gauche 2016-05-21T11:56:13Z davexunit: lewis1711: I don't understand. you want an array, but you got at guile's queue? 2016-05-21T11:56:18Z davexunit: got mad at* 2016-05-21T11:56:23Z davexunit: guile has an array interface 2016-05-21T11:56:38Z lewis1711: a dynamic array is an array that can have elements added to it, it can grow 2016-05-21T11:56:52Z davexunit: a queue is not that structure 2016-05-21T11:57:10Z davexunit: lewis1711: sounds easy enough to write 2016-05-21T11:57:12Z lewis1711: right. but it probably is underneath 2016-05-21T11:57:17Z davexunit: no, it's not. 2016-05-21T11:57:29Z lewis1711: a linked list then? who knows 2016-05-21T11:57:37Z davexunit: yes 2016-05-21T11:57:57Z davexunit: a linked structure makes more sense there 2016-05-21T11:58:13Z lewis1711: that's an arguable claim 2016-05-21T11:58:27Z davexunit: okay then whatever. 2016-05-21T11:59:11Z lewis1711: it's just data structures, don't take it personally 2016-05-21T12:01:33Z pierpa: you could have written one yourself in the time you wasted here 2016-05-21T12:03:12Z fugastrega quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-21T12:03:46Z lewis1711: yeah but nothing in scheme is very generic. I write it, sure, then does it work with the eager comprehensions library? probably not. etc etc. 2016-05-21T12:03:58Z jshjsh is now known as JoshS 2016-05-21T12:04:29Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-21T12:05:33Z davexunit: there's not much to do with a mutable data structure anyway 2016-05-21T12:05:58Z aries_liuxueyang joined #scheme 2016-05-21T12:06:00Z davexunit: you wouldn't exactly be using fold and co. 2016-05-21T12:06:07Z davexunit: so no need to rewrite those 2016-05-21T12:06:16Z davexunit: just ref and set! procs 2016-05-21T12:08:12Z alezost quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T12:12:53Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-21T12:16:23Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-21T12:16:36Z groovy2shoes: lewis1711, I'm honestly surprised Guile doesn't have them, but they're really not hard to roll your own on top of fixed-length vectors 2016-05-21T12:20:22Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-21T12:22:15Z groovy2shoes: (define (supervector-fold-left (f x xs) (do ((i 0 (+ i 1)) (acc init (f acc (supervector-ref xs i)))) ((= i (supervector-length xs)) acc))) 2016-05-21T12:23:51Z groovy2shoes: (define (supervector-fold-right f x xs) (supervector-fold-left (lambda (y x) (f x y)) x (supervector-reverse xs))) 2016-05-21T12:24:41Z groovy2shoes: ... 2016-05-21T12:25:56Z groovy2shoes: 1s/left (f/left f/ 2016-05-21T12:26:06Z groovy2shoes: got my common lisp in my scheme! 2016-05-21T12:27:27Z mokuso quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-21T12:36:08Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-21T12:40:20Z davexunit: I wrote a simple resizable vector for fun in Guile http://paste.lisp.org/display/316492 2016-05-21T12:41:48Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-21T12:49:18Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2016-05-21T13:12:49Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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The 68060 was the last 680x0-type processor from Motorola. 2016-05-22T14:20:39Z rudybot: mejja: err 680x0 2016-05-22T14:23:53Z scarygelatin joined #scheme 2016-05-22T14:36:52Z z0d: M68k is also in Ti calculators 2016-05-22T14:37:01Z z0d: not the newest models though 2016-05-22T14:39:30Z sz0 joined #scheme 2016-05-22T14:46:57Z mejja: Ti? 2016-05-22T14:52:41Z pepton4 joined #scheme 2016-05-22T14:56:18Z pepton3 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T14:57:14Z z0d: Texas Instruments 2016-05-22T14:57:24Z z0d: graphing calculators, like Ti-84 etc. 2016-05-22T15:03:34Z mejja: Sorry, never heard of Ti-84 before. Didn't know Ti made calculators.. 2016-05-22T15:03:52Z z0d: really? 2016-05-22T15:06:20Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-22T15:09:37Z mejja: I had friends with 2 42's, maybe you did too? 2016-05-22T15:10:05Z mejja: One at home and I at work 2016-05-22T15:11:28Z mejja: Perhaps that is why you think HP made a model 84? 2016-05-22T15:13:34Z edw`` joined #scheme 2016-05-22T15:14:05Z fizzie: "TI-84 etc." have a Z80 in them. 2016-05-22T15:14:35Z fizzie: With the exception of TI-89, and maybe some others. 2016-05-22T15:16:22Z fizzie: But at least the original TI-83, TI-85, TI-86 and the later TI-83+, TI-83+ SE, TI-84+, TI-84+ SE models are all Z80. 2016-05-22T15:16:50Z z0d: right, I wasn't clear on that 2016-05-22T15:17:12Z z0d: Voyage 200 also has the Motorola 2016-05-22T15:17:31Z fizzie: Yes, and the 92 (forgot about that). 2016-05-22T15:18:24Z edw`` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T15:20:57Z Crashlog quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T15:23:10Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2016-05-22T15:32:31Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-22T15:32:46Z groovy2shoes: 68k was a nice architecture 2016-05-22T15:32:50Z groovy2shoes: nicer than PPC, imo 2016-05-22T15:32:59Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-05-22T15:33:37Z groovy2shoes: what I *really* miss, though, is DEC 2016-05-22T15:33:47Z groovy2shoes: VAX, Alpha, etc. 2016-05-22T15:33:52Z groovy2shoes: very nice stuff 2016-05-22T15:34:44Z groovy2shoes: I think their mistake was not trying to enter the general consumer market in the early 90s 2016-05-22T15:35:33Z groovy2shoes: a low-end Alpha beat the snot out of a high-end Pentium in performance, but DEC was only ever interested in dealing to corporations 2016-05-22T15:41:12Z dTal: I hang out in ti calculator IRC channels and this conversation confused me for a bit there 2016-05-22T15:41:59Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-22T15:42:15Z dTal: The BASIC on the 68k TI calculators must be the most powerful BASIC ever 2016-05-22T15:43:19Z dTal: symbolic algebra, dynamic name binding, and string->symbol 2016-05-22T15:44:54Z mejja quit (Quit: HP > TI >> Casio) 2016-05-22T15:47:03Z z0d: and it's reasonably fast 2016-05-22T15:47:43Z dTal: oh and functions instead of subroutines 2016-05-22T15:48:07Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-05-22T15:48:16Z dTal: not I'd call it "fast" 2016-05-22T15:48:20Z dTal: *not sure 2016-05-22T15:48:53Z groovy2shoes: compared to the BASIC on the TI-83+? 2016-05-22T15:52:59Z dTal: hard to say - it's running on a faster CPU, but it's also doing a lot more 2016-05-22T15:53:30Z dTal: The screen is higher-res so you have more pixels to push if you're trying to make games 2016-05-22T15:54:07Z dTal: on the TI-83+ the BASIC is tokenized right from the stat - you type in tokens like on the ZX Spectrum 2016-05-22T15:54:15Z dTal: whereas on the 89 you type ASCII 2016-05-22T15:54:26Z dTal: so there has to be a tokenizing pass on first run 2016-05-22T15:56:09Z dTal: it's "fast" in the sense that it's expressive - that quadratic solver everyone wrote in high school is just a single function call to solve() on the 89 2016-05-22T16:14:15Z edw`` joined #scheme 2016-05-22T16:15:24Z pllx joined #scheme 2016-05-22T16:16:20Z masoudd: I'm reading r6rs. Chapter 3 talks about numerical tower. It says that complex is a subset of number. Does this mean there is a number which is not complex? 2016-05-22T16:18:27Z pastaf is now known as Pastaf 2016-05-22T16:18:33Z edw`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-22T16:18:53Z ecraven: masoudd: there could be? 2016-05-22T16:19:06Z ecraven: as in, not in r6rs, but implementations might define something 2016-05-22T16:19:38Z masoudd: I can't imagine any number that would make (complex? n) return #f 2016-05-22T16:20:19Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-05-22T16:25:02Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-22T16:47:44Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-23T09:19:32Z ecraven: hey :) 2016-05-23T09:20:17Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-23T09:24:05Z madmuppet006 joined #scheme 2016-05-23T09:27:06Z edw`` joined #scheme 2016-05-23T09:29:30Z madmuppet006: I am going through the little schemer and am trying the exercise for the value procedure which is a simple calculator .. I can get it going one way but when I tried another it gives an error ERROR: In procedure #{0*}#:ERROR: Wrong type to apply: #{0*}# I am using guile 2.0.11 my code is at http://pastebin.com/Jjx5WVPb .. the error code is the top procedure 2016-05-23T09:32:28Z edw`` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-23T09:32:47Z groovy2shoes: madmuppet006, I'm taking a look 2016-05-23T09:32:53Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, what's going on? :) 2016-05-23T09:33:05Z madmuppet006: groovy2shoes: thanks 2016-05-23T09:33:42Z Urchin joined #scheme 2016-05-23T09:33:51Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: not much, just trying to get surf adapted to me :) 2016-05-23T09:34:13Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, the web browser? 2016-05-23T09:34:25Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: yea 2016-05-23T09:34:33Z ecraven: I've been using uzbl, but that is breaking down slowly :-/ 2016-05-23T09:34:36Z ecraven: also, surf is faster :D 2016-05-23T09:35:11Z groovy2shoes: how is it? I've been thinking about trying it, but I tried xombrero first and I've liked it so much I've just stuck with it and haven't tried anything else (still have luawebkit, uzbl, and surf on my list) 2016-05-23T09:35:51Z groovy2shoes: thing about xombrero is it looks like it might be abandoned, and I unfortunately don't have the time to pick it up myself 2016-05-23T09:36:15Z groovy2shoes: which is a shame, because it's a really great browser... it could use a few tweaks here and there, but overall I've been really happy with it 2016-05-23T09:38:31Z groovy2shoes: madmuppet006, I haven't read the little schemer... would you mind explaining to me what this function is supposed to do? 2016-05-23T09:39:41Z madmuppet006: groovy2shoes: I have previously written some procedures for + * - / and the power function using 0+ 0* etc 2016-05-23T09:40:18Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-23T09:40:29Z madmuppet006: groovy2shoes: so I want to be able to do something like (value (2 0+ 3)) and get 5 2016-05-23T09:40:29Z groovy2shoes: ah okay 2016-05-23T09:40:41Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-23T09:40:43Z groovy2shoes: madmuppet006, so, the problem is that you're trying to apply a symbol, I think 2016-05-23T09:40:59Z groovy2shoes: you can only apply procedures 2016-05-23T09:41:36Z groovy2shoes: so what you'll want to do is make an a-list ("association list") that maps the symbols to the procedures, then you can look up the appropriate procedure and apply that instead 2016-05-23T09:42:05Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: both uzbl and surf are great if you like fully customizing things.. I've written some dmenu-stuff around them, and they work great for me 2016-05-23T09:42:11Z ecraven: but I like minimal things :) 2016-05-23T09:42:20Z groovy2shoes: e.g.: (define a-list `((0+ . ,0+) (0* . ,0*) (0- . ,0-) ...)) 2016-05-23T09:42:50Z ecraven: never heard of xombrero, need to investigate that :) 2016-05-23T09:42:54Z groovy2shoes: then you can use assq to look up the symbol, and you can apply it... so for the consequent in your innermost if condition, you can do: 2016-05-23T09:44:22Z groovy2shoes: (let ((f (assq (cadr n)))) (if f (f (car n) (value (caddr n))) #f)) 2016-05-23T09:44:46Z groovy2shoes: err 2016-05-23T09:45:10Z groovy2shoes: s/ (f (car n)/((cdr f) (car n)/ 2016-05-23T09:45:46Z madmuppet006: groovy2shoes: thanks for the heads up .. awesome .. back to the drawing board ..:) 2016-05-23T09:45:59Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-23T09:52:34Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-23T10:03:43Z davorb joined #scheme 2016-05-23T10:15:19Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T10:20:33Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T10:25:34Z nowhere_man joined #scheme 2016-05-23T10:28:06Z edw`` joined #scheme 2016-05-23T10:29:59Z groovy2shoes: madmuppet006, http://pastebin.com/pBuVd4bx 2016-05-23T10:32:28Z edw`` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-23T10:34:03Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-23T10:36:43Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-23T10:52:05Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-23T10:54:59Z madmuppet006 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T11:19:31Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-23T11:28:29Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T11:33:28Z 14WAADAC7 joined #scheme 2016-05-23T11:33:29Z 17SAAAGTR joined #scheme 2016-05-23T11:38:16Z adu joined #scheme 2016-05-23T11:39:18Z 17SAAAGTR is now known as noethics 2016-05-23T11:40:05Z 14WAADAC7 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T11:40:45Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-23T11:41:44Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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The worst, of course, is the transformation of "is an error" into "an error is signaled" everywhere. 2016-05-23T15:34:02Z Maticz: Hi guy, can anyone explain me why I can't pass the and procedure as an argument to a function? 2016-05-23T15:34:20Z Maticz: guys* 2016-05-23T15:36:13Z mpu: Maticz: maybe because it's a macro 2016-05-23T15:36:38Z mpu: you could try (lambda (x y) (and x y)) instead, maybe. 2016-05-23T15:36:53Z xue_ joined #scheme 2016-05-23T15:37:44Z Maticz: Thanks for the info, I'm trying to get the value of combining boolean values, I will try your lambda 2016-05-23T15:37:53Z mpu: It's not mine. 2016-05-23T15:38:19Z Maticz: Well thanks for sharing it ;) 2016-05-23T15:38:48Z mpu: Lambdas are non-linear, sharing them is free. 2016-05-23T15:39:07Z Maticz: lol 2016-05-23T15:40:08Z manumanumanu: why is and a macro? 2016-05-23T15:40:27Z mpu: I don't know if it's a macro, I'm speculating. 2016-05-23T15:40:31Z manumanumanu: it is a macro 2016-05-23T15:40:38Z mpu: But short-circtuiting would be a good argument. 2016-05-23T15:40:40Z jcowan: Because it stops after evaluating the first false argument, whereas procedures evaluate all their arguments before being invoked 2016-05-23T15:40:52Z Maticz: because it uses lazy evaluation 2016-05-23T15:40:54Z manumanumanu: thought so 2016-05-23T15:41:00Z manumanumanu: that is probably faster 2016-05-23T15:41:07Z jcowan: Safer, too. 2016-05-23T15:41:11Z manumanumanu: how come? 2016-05-23T15:41:34Z Riastradh: You can write an expression whose correctness is conditional on the previous conditions. 2016-05-23T15:41:36Z manumanumanu: I have always reasoned as if it was a procedure 2016-05-23T15:41:37Z jcowan: You can say things like (and (< i (vector-length v) (vector-ref v i)) 2016-05-23T15:41:38Z Riastradh: (and (pair? x) (car x)) 2016-05-23T15:41:52Z manumanumanu: ah 2016-05-23T15:41:53Z mpu: It's nicer in a recursive function, usually (and (pred hd) (forall pred tl)) 2016-05-23T15:41:54Z manumanumanu: smart. 2016-05-23T15:42:24Z mpu: Riastradh: this is horrible 2016-05-23T15:42:43Z mpu: You really don't like types here. 2016-05-23T15:43:21Z noethics quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-23T15:43:49Z Riastradh: (and (eq? 'quagga (tagged-union-variant x)) (car (tagged-union-datum x))) 2016-05-23T15:43:50Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-23T15:44:18Z mpu: Eh, maybe you guys will find that fun: http://c9x.me/qscm/ 2016-05-23T15:44:35Z mpu: I wrote that a while ago, it was fun. 2016-05-23T15:47:20Z yfMvjhs joined #scheme 2016-05-23T15:47:21Z yfMvjhs left #scheme 2016-05-23T15:50:19Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T15:51:48Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-05-23T15:54:01Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-23T15:54:12Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-05-23T15:54:29Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-23T15:54:40Z myk267 joined #scheme 2016-05-23T15:54:53Z daviid is now known as Guest71476 2016-05-23T15:55:51Z xue_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T15:56:14Z Guest71476 is now known as daviid 2016-05-23T15:56:23Z snits joined #scheme 2016-05-23T16:07:46Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T16:08:13Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-23T16:08:31Z noethics joined #scheme 2016-05-23T16:10:59Z Crashlog quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T16:13:07Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-05-23T16:14:41Z Crashlog joined #scheme 2016-05-23T16:15:44Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-23T16:32:15Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-23T16:34:19Z leot quit (Quit: BBL) 2016-05-23T16:36:44Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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What have you got? 2016-05-23T18:53:00Z teurastaja: im implementing matrix addition, substraction, multiplication (dot product), division (dot), transposition, horizontal and vertical concatenation, hadamard product and kronecker product 2016-05-23T18:53:15Z teurastaja: thats what i need but i could add more for completeness 2016-05-23T18:53:37Z teurastaja: it seems too small though 2016-05-23T18:54:27Z teurastaja: ill be using vectors for that 2016-05-23T18:54:29Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-23T18:55:10Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T18:55:26Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T18:55:38Z teurastaja: since theres no work done on neural networks in scheme (serious, that i know of), i figured itll be my summers puzzle 2016-05-23T18:55:56Z teurastaja: so... what would be missing for completeness? 2016-05-23T18:58:14Z teurastaja: im totally noob at this math stuff but i figured its just fancy names for easy stuff 2016-05-23T18:59:44Z jcowan: Is the hadamard product the element-wise product? 2016-05-23T18:59:47Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-23T18:59:53Z teurastaja: yup 2016-05-23T19:00:07Z teurastaja: easy stuff with fancy names 2016-05-23T19:00:37Z jcowan: and I see the Kronecker product is the outer product. 2016-05-23T19:01:01Z teurastaja: sort of the same thing, just with 2 orthogonal vectors 2016-05-23T19:01:41Z jcowan: reflection, rotation, arbitrary transposition (slice into rows or columns and reassemble them into a specified order) 2016-05-23T19:02:18Z jcowan: (possibly leaving out some) 2016-05-23T19:02:39Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-23T19:02:42Z teurastaja: id just (define (transpose . matrix) (apply zip matrix)) 2016-05-23T19:02:45Z vydd_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T19:03:03Z teurastaja: im not sure about the other transpositions though 2016-05-23T19:03:50Z jcowan: principal diagonal 2016-05-23T19:04:01Z teurastaja: that would be the determinant? 2016-05-23T19:04:29Z jcowan: No, just the vector of values a[0,0], a[1,1], a[2,2] ... 2016-05-23T19:04:48Z teurastaja: oh... then what is the determinant? 2016-05-23T19:05:02Z jcowan: The determinant is the determinant, I suppose 2016-05-23T19:05:31Z jcowan: submatrix: all elements from a[i,j] to a[k, l] 2016-05-23T19:05:37Z jcowan: which are the corners 2016-05-23T19:05:38Z teurastaja: this is an infinite circular definition 2016-05-23T19:06:44Z jcowan: I mean it is not reducible to elementary operations, so you should probably include it, but it is not the same as the diagonal (det is a scalar, diag is a vector) 2016-05-23T19:07:07Z teurastaja: do you have a reference library documentation? 2016-05-23T19:07:10Z jcowan: no 2016-05-23T19:07:25Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-05-23T19:07:37Z teurastaja: det is a scalar? what do you do with it? multiply with the diagonal? 2016-05-23T19:07:57Z jcowan: You can use it as the first step in matrix inversion and for other purposes 2016-05-23T19:10:31Z narendraj9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T19:10:44Z teurastaja: ill read up on that. what else? 2016-05-23T19:13:15Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T19:13:16Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T19:15:57Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-23T19:19:20Z pepton4 joined #scheme 2016-05-23T19:20:30Z teurastaja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [SeaMonkey 2.33.1/20150321194901]) 2016-05-23T19:21:30Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Do someone know of any good guide to impementing a Scheme interpeter (with continuations and the cool stuff) in C? 2016-05-23T19:42:20Z pierpa: yes, try Lisp in Small Pieces 2016-05-23T19:42:21Z kuribas joined #scheme 2016-05-23T19:42:32Z aeth: Be warned: Lisp in Small Pieces is very expensive 2016-05-23T19:43:25Z pierpa: how much does it cost nowadays? 2016-05-23T19:44:05Z pierpa: (when it'll reach 1000EUR I'll sell my copy :) 2016-05-23T19:44:59Z aeth: The US Amazon has it for $84 right now (it might be different in 3 seconds), marked down from the probably ficticious $120 2016-05-23T19:45:17Z aeth: I think it's actually gone down in price, although I could be wrong. 2016-05-23T19:45:17Z pierpa: $84 is very cheap 2016-05-23T19:45:33Z aeth: $84 is cheaper than I thought 2016-05-23T19:45:36Z C-Keen bought his copy for 60 EUR IIRC 2016-05-23T19:45:37Z pierpa: is about the price it had when it come out 2016-05-23T19:45:45Z pierpa: *came 2016-05-23T19:46:02Z black0range: Hmm are there some student friendly option like a website? :) 2016-05-23T19:46:03Z C-Keen: there might be an illegal pdf online 2016-05-23T19:46:22Z pierpa: there are french editions, maybe black0range reads it 2016-05-23T19:47:07Z aeth: According to Amazon, it dropped from $89.97 to $84.00 since I added it to my wish list 4 May 2013, about 3 years ago. 2016-05-23T19:47:31Z aeth: I think it was above $90 when I first saw it, though 2016-05-23T19:47:38Z pierpa: worth every cent 2016-05-23T19:47:39Z aeth: So it's been dropping in price. 2016-05-23T19:48:33Z aeth: note: Amazon might just be dropping it for me and me only (even though I first checked in private browsing) since I've had it on my wishlist for a while 2016-05-23T19:48:53Z aeth: LiSP is my experiment of keeping it on my wish list as long as possible to see if Amazon will make it low just for me :-p 2016-05-23T19:48:59Z pierpa doubts Amazon does this 2016-05-23T19:49:07Z C-Keen: black0range: if you have access to a decent library lend it 2016-05-23T19:49:54Z aeth: black0range: You can look up individual concepts online, e.g. continuation passing style. 2016-05-23T19:50:09Z aeth: You'll hit more dead ends, it will take more time, and you'll run into a lot of examples in JavaScript, the C++ of 2016. 2016-05-23T19:50:11Z C-Keen: black0range: there is also scheme from empty space which implements a r5rs scheme interpreter in C and its in the public domain 2016-05-23T19:53:08Z black0range: I just found a copy from a "student friendly" web site :) 2016-05-23T19:54:34Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T19:56:00Z C-Keen: black0range: have a look at http://www.t3x.org/s9fes/ anyway, it's worth it 2016-05-23T19:58:25Z aeth: pierpa: Amazon tracks the % drop since it was added to your wishlist, which looks like it incentivizes them to drop the price just for you if it's been on your wishlist for a while 2016-05-23T19:58:42Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-23T19:59:06Z black0range: C-keen: Will do! 2016-05-23T19:59:58Z C-Keen: aeth: but in this case the price is set by selling bots run by used book dealers, no? 2016-05-23T20:01:24Z aeth: C-Keen: actually "Other sellers" seem to match Amazon's $84.00, so either there's a minimum price exposed in an API or Amazon isn't doing per-viewer price here 2016-05-23T20:01:29Z aeth: Also, it appears to be new 2016-05-23T20:01:48Z C-Keen: aeth: is it sold by amazon? 2016-05-23T20:02:03Z aeth: C-Keen: http://smile.amazon.com/dp/0521545668/ 2016-05-23T20:02:14Z aeth: At least in the US< it appears to be new, in stock, and $84 2016-05-23T20:02:39Z aeth: Used is actually from $89.99 2016-05-23T20:02:55Z aeth: So somehow there's a bunch of new or "new" copies recently 2016-05-23T20:03:07Z aeth: This actually looks like a recent development. 2016-05-23T20:03:48Z aeth: This is the English version, not the French original 2016-05-23T20:05:04Z aeth: Iirc, at one point it only was used. 2016-05-23T20:06:39Z pierpa: aeth: but AFAIK Amazon does not do personalized prices. Some times I have also checked when a certain price seemed odd 2016-05-23T20:06:58Z aeth: pierpa: I thought they did at one point, but that might have been an urban legend 2016-05-23T20:07:03Z pierpa: and in addition, if they did, it would be well known 2016-05-23T20:07:12Z aeth: It also might dpeend on the country, it could be illegal where you are, but not everywhere. 2016-05-23T20:07:22Z black0range: C-Keen: In s9fes where is the defenition of apply_prim located? 2016-05-23T20:07:43Z pierpa: (I asked people in other countries to check :) 2016-05-23T20:07:48Z aeth: ah 2016-05-23T20:07:59Z C-Keen: black0range: http://www.t3x.org/s9fes/s9core.c.html 2016-05-23T20:08:08Z C-Keen: cell apply_prim(cell f, cell a) { 2016-05-23T20:08:10Z C-Keen: PRIM *p; 2016-05-23T20:08:12Z C-Keen: p = prim_info(f); 2016-05-23T20:08:14Z C-Keen: return (*p->handler)(a); 2016-05-23T20:08:16Z C-Keen: } 2016-05-23T20:09:21Z black0range: oh... thanks :) 2016-05-23T20:10:28Z Opodeldoc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T20:11:13Z C-Keen: my pleasure 2016-05-23T20:15:04Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-23T20:25:32Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-23T20:29:00Z Maticz quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-23T20:31:57Z mumptai quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-05-23T20:40:44Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T20:45:19Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2016-05-23T20:46:07Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-23T20:57:04Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-23T20:58:00Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-23T20:59:19Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-23T21:03:09Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:07:12Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:08:15Z mokuso quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:11:19Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-23T21:17:39Z Kooda: C-Keen: yes, I’ll do my best to be there! :) (very late reply xD) 2016-05-23T21:18:04Z pepton4 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:18:05Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:18:26Z masoudd quit (Quit: May your strings always be '\0' terminated.) 2016-05-23T21:22:13Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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That it's completely arbitrary what is syntax and what is a procedure with thunks. I just wanted to say that that irks me. How say dynamic-wind is a proceure but if is syntax. 2016-05-24T00:41:15Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-05-24T00:47:31Z mejja: Read the fine manual? 2016-05-24T00:48:01Z shdeng joined #scheme 2016-05-24T00:49:48Z Rockeurduque: Well, I know which one does which 2016-05-24T00:49:53Z Rockeurduque: It's just arbitrary and inconsistent. 2016-05-24T00:50:14Z shdeng quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-24T00:50:15Z Rockeurduque: You know, how argument order in php is inconsistent 2016-05-24T00:50:57Z shdeng joined #scheme 2016-05-24T00:51:19Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-24T00:51:42Z mejja: No. 2016-05-24T00:59:52Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T01:01:42Z edw joined #scheme 2016-05-24T01:01:49Z edw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T01:07:02Z madmuppet006 joined #scheme 2016-05-24T01:08:48Z madmuppet006 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T01:11:03Z Crashlog quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T01:16:08Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-24T01:19:01Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-24T01:24:27Z Rockeurduque left #scheme 2016-05-24T01:27:39Z groscoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T01:32:22Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-24T01:47:35Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T01:55:50Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-24T02:00:13Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T02:00:39Z adu joined #scheme 2016-05-24T02:01:00Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-24T02:06:41Z edw joined #scheme 2016-05-24T02:06:44Z edw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T02:09:11Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-24T02:11:32Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I have one procedure that works so I tried another method that does not work http://pastebin.com/qUHMDwRe the error message for example (value '(3 0+ 4)) has ERROR: in procedure (#{0=}# ... wrong type to apply .. when I try (assoc '0+ alist) I get (#{0+}# . #{0+}#) so this is where my problem is .. but why? 2016-05-24T04:42:00Z scarygelatin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T04:43:23Z fugastrega quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T04:43:50Z fugastrega joined #scheme 2016-05-24T04:46:58Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme 2016-05-24T04:52:23Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-05-24T05:01:32Z pobivan joined #scheme 2016-05-24T05:10:19Z fadein joined #scheme 2016-05-24T05:14:47Z mjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T05:15:07Z mjl joined #scheme 2016-05-24T05:16:13Z andrewvic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T05:16:30Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-24T05:16:33Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T05:18:35Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T05:18:55Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-24T05:19:37Z fugastrega quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T05:27:34Z madmuppet006 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-24T05:28:59Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-05-24T05:43:20Z hiredman left #scheme 2016-05-24T05:44:30Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T05:52:06Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2016-05-24T06:51:43Z gnomon quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:52:54Z taylan: eatonphil: you can use eq? or eqv? to check if two variables refer to the same hash table. other than that, you'll have to use hash-table-keys/values 2016-05-24T06:54:22Z civodul joined #scheme 2016-05-24T06:56:02Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-24T06:56:35Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme 2016-05-24T07:06:14Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2016-05-24T07:12:12Z karswell` joined #scheme 2016-05-24T07:12:33Z groovy2shoes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T07:12:57Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T07:13:24Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme 2016-05-24T07:17:38Z mikeyhc quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me) 2016-05-24T07:18:02Z mikeyhc joined #scheme 2016-05-24T07:24:01Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-24T07:27:04Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-24T07:29:41Z bjz joined #scheme 2016-05-24T07:31:51Z bjz quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-24T07:32:36Z bjz joined #scheme 2016-05-24T07:34:09Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T07:37:53Z Muir joined #scheme 2016-05-24T07:39:28Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-24T07:39:38Z zadock joined #scheme 2016-05-24T07:40:37Z zadock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T07:40:52Z bjz quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-24T07:41:29Z bjz joined #scheme 2016-05-24T07:41:50Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-24T07:46:17Z bjz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T07:49:29Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-24T07:50:04Z bigfondue joined #scheme 2016-05-24T07:58:38Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-24T07:59:55Z bjz joined #scheme 2016-05-24T08:00:03Z groovy2shoes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T08:01:11Z mikeyhc quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me) 2016-05-24T08:01:59Z mikeyhc joined #scheme 2016-05-24T08:07:29Z Flippers quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T08:09:09Z Flippers joined #scheme 2016-05-24T08:18:11Z igam joined #scheme 2016-05-24T08:24:51Z br0kenman joined #scheme 2016-05-24T08:38:01Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-24T08:52:38Z edw` joined #scheme 2016-05-24T08:54:08Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-05-24T08:57:07Z edw` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-24T09:16:59Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-24T09:21:20Z madmuppet006 joined #scheme 2016-05-24T09:21:47Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-24T09:22:21Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-24T09:26:15Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-24T09:31:54Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-24T09:38:02Z andrewvic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T09:44:33Z ggole joined #scheme 2016-05-24T09:58:47Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2016-05-24T10:00:55Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-24T10:16:19Z madmuppet006 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T10:19:33Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T10:20:38Z m0li joined #scheme 2016-05-24T10:24:52Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2016-05-24T10:25:29Z tax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T10:29:15Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2016-05-24T10:29:46Z bogdanm joined #scheme 2016-05-24T10:30:29Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-24T10:39:38Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T10:47:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T10:57:48Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-24T11:02:39Z eatonphil: taylan: thanks, I guess I was just wondering if there was a convenience function that checked set equality for the keys and values of two hash tables. 2016-05-24T11:03:23Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T11:04:06Z gnomon joined #scheme 2016-05-24T11:05:28Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-24T11:08:31Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-24T11:09:58Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-24T11:11:58Z igam joined #scheme 2016-05-24T11:13:18Z taylan: eatonphil: nope, not in SRFI 69. BTW what do you need it for? I didn't add such an operation to SRFI 126 because I assumed it's an obscure use case / better solved another way 2016-05-24T11:17:40Z eatonphil: Oh yeah? I guess it could be solved other ways, but I do find myself using this sort of function in other languages from time to time. 2016-05-24T11:18:47Z eatonphil: Actually I think in this particular case eq? might be fine because I am comparing things against a constant (I think). 2016-05-24T11:21:23Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-24T11:25:02Z bogdanm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T11:28:11Z igam quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T11:32:58Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-24T11:33:06Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-24T11:33:22Z pierpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T11:35:05Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-24T11:38:26Z shdeng joined #scheme 2016-05-24T11:39:55Z AlexDenisov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T11:40:12Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-24T11:41:08Z pierpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T11:41:43Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-24T11:46:40Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T11:49:20Z shdeng joined #scheme 2016-05-24T11:51:11Z taylan: eatonphil: many languages have some convenient "map", "dictionary", or "associative array" type that tends to boil down to a hash table, and these are frequently used as a normal part of data structures (akin to objects in JSON), have a simple literal syntax, etc., but hash tables in Scheme are somewhat different 2016-05-24T11:51:54Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-24T11:52:02Z taylan: in Scheme/Lisp, one has generally tended to use alists for that purpose, though they have disadvantages... 2016-05-24T11:52:37Z taylan: I've indeed thought about writing a separate SRFI for a kind of "dictionary" type that's much more like maps/dicts/etc. in other languages 2016-05-24T11:53:54Z taylan: but so far it's only a blurry idea, and I'm not sure if any Scheme implementation/community out there has/uses such a thing and so whether it would catch on 2016-05-24T11:54:38Z ecraven: taylan: what is different about hash tables except for no standardised literal syntax? 2016-05-24T11:55:37Z grublet joined #scheme 2016-05-24T11:58:13Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-24T11:59:39Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-24T12:03:50Z taylan: ecraven: they don't lend themselves well to functional programming style so they don't fit in as well as lists 2016-05-24T12:05:00Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-24T12:05:38Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-24T12:06:21Z taylan: in other languages the map type tends to be on equal footing with arrays at least... probably Clojure is the nicest language w.r.t. arrays anp maps and using them in FP style. 2016-05-24T12:08:39Z taylan: I guess I don't have any strong, concrete arguments. I just intuitively can't see Scheme hash tables (regardless if SRFI 69, 125, 126, or R6RS) as equivalent to dicts/maps in other languages. 2016-05-24T12:09:05Z taylan: maybe I should have just added a hashtable-equal? procedure in SRFI 126 2016-05-24T12:09:06Z civodul joined #scheme 2016-05-24T12:10:02Z eatonphil: Are you familiar with how hash tables work in OCaml or Standard ML? They have a very nice way using immutable structures all the way. I find myself missing that in Scheme actually. 2016-05-24T12:10:19Z taylan: I'm not familiar with those 2016-05-24T12:10:43Z pierpa: I think you people are making some confusion terminologically 2016-05-24T12:11:53Z pierpa: someone is calling "hashtables" only mutable structures, someone other calls hashtable both mutable and immutable maps 2016-05-24T12:13:47Z eatonphil: I'm certain I'm the confused one. Anyway, here is a short example (it won't compile without the stubs filled out) of a "map" datastructure in Standard ML. https://gist.github.com/eatonphil/0c5c54864a3d5e9856bafbe192f2656f 2016-05-24T12:14:07Z eatonphil: The map could be implemented however in the backend - as a hashtable, b-tree, etc. 2016-05-24T12:15:23Z pierpa: both sml or ocaml and schemes can use and do both mutable maps (hashtables) and immutable ones 2016-05-24T12:15:52Z pierpa: a bit confusingly, Racket calls both kind "hashtables" 2016-05-24T12:16:18Z eatonphil: Yes you are right. And I think I am just confusing myself. In OCaml, for instance, the Hashtbl data structure is mutable. http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/libref/Hashtbl.html 2016-05-24T12:16:55Z eatonphil: So SRFI-69 pertains only to a mutable hash table structure, is that correct? 2016-05-24T12:17:34Z pierpa: yes, and ocaml also has Maps and Sets which are immutable 2016-05-24T12:17:51Z pierpa: (yes, not to the SRFI question :) 2016-05-24T12:18:15Z pierpa: I'm not following the SRFIs closely, and remember about SRFI-69, sorry 2016-05-24T12:18:24Z pierpa: *and don't remember 2016-05-24T12:20:07Z eatonphil: Thanks for helping me sort things out lol. 2016-05-24T12:20:16Z pierpa: ;) 2016-05-24T12:20:53Z eatonphil: In any case, I think I'm still interested in an equality function for hashtables. Where hash-table-eq? would check for the set equality of the keys and values, recursively I guess. 2016-05-24T12:22:08Z pierpa: only -eq? would not be the right name. Better - equal? 2016-05-24T12:29:14Z noethics joined #scheme 2016-05-24T12:29:53Z ggole: eatonphil: that might be very expensive, as typical hash table designs are not ordered 2016-05-24T12:31:05Z ggole: (You can't just iterate all the entries of one looking them up in the other, since that doesn't tell you whether there are additional entries, which would make the other table unequal.) 2016-05-24T12:32:22Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-05-24T12:34:06Z leot quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-24T12:35:48Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-24T12:38:40Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-24T12:42:22Z kuribas joined #scheme 2016-05-24T12:48:23Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-24T12:57:57Z bjz_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-24T12:58:24Z bjz joined #scheme 2016-05-24T12:58:58Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T12:59:36Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-24T13:02:24Z eatonphil: That is a good point. Maybe I should be using something more sensible for this task. Maybe an ordered map? 2016-05-24T13:05:13Z ggole: Yeah, maybe. Ordered maps do allow for equality (given equality for the values, of course). 2016-05-24T13:08:10Z pierpa: not really 2016-05-24T13:08:35Z pierpa: in general is not guaranted that equal maps have the same representation 2016-05-24T13:11:08Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2016-05-24T13:14:35Z ggole: You don't need the same representation, since they are ordered 2016-05-24T13:15:06Z ggole: A pre order walk over equal maps will visit equal elements at the same time. 2016-05-24T13:15:43Z ggole: (This also works for lexicographical comparison.) 2016-05-24T13:16:09Z ggole: If you take a look at the interface for immutable maps in, say, OCaml you will see such operations. 2016-05-24T13:16:29Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-24T13:21:52Z ggole: Oops, that should be in-order. 2016-05-24T13:28:30Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T13:28:44Z karswell joined #scheme 2016-05-24T13:29:04Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-24T13:39:38Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-24T13:46:00Z edw joined #scheme 2016-05-24T13:48:00Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T13:55:48Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-24T13:59:17Z grettke quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-24T13:59:55Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T14:01:54Z AlexDenisov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T14:02:26Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-24T14:04:17Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-24T14:36:54Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T14:38:11Z mokuso quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-24T14:42:37Z Riastradh quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-24T14:42:37Z br0kenman quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-24T14:42:37Z dsp quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-24T14:42:37Z ArneBab_ quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-24T14:42:38Z ByronJohnson quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-24T14:42:38Z civodul quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-24T14:42:38Z grublet quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-24T14:42:38Z mikeyhc quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-24T14:42:39Z copec quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-24T14:42:39Z Kruppe quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-24T14:45:53Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-24T14:47:17Z aries_liuxueyang joined #scheme 2016-05-24T14:49:16Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-24T15:16:18Z stamourv_ is now known as stamourv 2016-05-24T15:16:18Z stamourv quit (Changing host) 2016-05-24T15:16:18Z stamourv joined #scheme 2016-05-24T15:22:48Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-05-24T15:25:45Z Muir quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T15:26:18Z br0kenman` joined #scheme 2016-05-24T15:33:07Z AlexDeni_ joined #scheme 2016-05-24T15:33:50Z br0kenman` quit (Quit: bye) 2016-05-24T15:35:52Z AlexDenisov quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-24T15:40:17Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-05-24T15:40:17Z civodul joined #scheme 2016-05-24T15:40:17Z grublet joined #scheme 2016-05-24T15:40:17Z mikeyhc joined #scheme 2016-05-24T15:40:17Z copec joined #scheme 2016-05-24T15:40:17Z Kruppe joined #scheme 2016-05-24T15:41:22Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-24T15:43:34Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-24T15:45:07Z AlexDeni_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Then I could test two such hash tables using equal? ? 2016-05-24T16:34:50Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-24T16:35:07Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2016-05-24T16:37:29Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T16:38:32Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-05-24T16:39:06Z leot quit (Quit: BBL) 2016-05-24T16:43:17Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-24T16:44:56Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-05-24T16:49:15Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T16:53:01Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T16:59:23Z aleogen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T16:59:50Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T17:02:22Z keemyb quit (Quit: https://fnordserver.eu) 2016-05-24T17:13:46Z pobivan joined #scheme 2016-05-24T17:19:03Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T17:22:50Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-05-24T17:26:10Z jshjsh joined #scheme 2016-05-24T17:28:30Z JoshS quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-24T17:37:33Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T17:41:47Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-05-24T17:42:03Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-24T17:42:20Z pjb joined #scheme 2016-05-24T17:43:32Z jshjsh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T17:51:12Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-24T17:51:36Z keemyb joined #scheme 2016-05-24T18:02:55Z edw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T18:13:19Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T18:14:30Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-24T18:16:35Z ArneBab_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T18:17:14Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2016-05-24T18:17:48Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-24T18:39:12Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-05-24T18:42:53Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-24T18:46:16Z ggole quit 2016-05-24T18:49:57Z civodul joined #scheme 2016-05-24T18:56:06Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-24T18:57:18Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-05-24T19:02:58Z masoudd joined #scheme 2016-05-24T19:03:01Z masoudd quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-24T19:03:29Z masoudd joined #scheme 2016-05-24T19:08:17Z masoudd: In (eqv? obj1 obj2) vs (= obj1 obj2) "Note: The eqv? procedure returning #t when obj1 and obj2 are number objects does not imply that = would also return #t when called with obj1 and obj2 as arguments." 2016-05-24T19:08:29Z masoudd: I don't get it 2016-05-24T19:09:16Z jcowan: (eqv? +nan.0 +nan.0) is #t, but (= +nan.0 +nan.0) is by definition #f. 2016-05-24T19:09:35Z masoudd: I see 2016-05-24T19:09:37Z jcowan: or at any rate the first one is usually #t 2016-05-24T19:10:29Z jcowan: in the opposite direction, (eqv? 3 3.0) is definitely #f, and (= 3 3.0) is definitely #t 2016-05-24T19:11:06Z jcowan: eqv? is object identity, = is numeric equality 2016-05-24T19:12:02Z masoudd: I'm going through eq? eqv? equal?. I don't know why is there so many different equality checking procedures 2016-05-24T19:13:27Z davexunit: because there are many types of equality 2016-05-24T19:16:11Z pierpa: and you don't need to know about eq?. eq? it's just an optimization 2016-05-24T19:18:39Z groovy2shoes joined #scheme 2016-05-24T19:21:06Z masoudd: Thank you all. 2016-05-24T19:23:22Z jcowan: eqv? is basic identity, equal? is a convenient sort of equality for some specific purposes, but not all, = is for numbers only 2016-05-24T19:23:52Z jcowan: eq? as noted is a fast form of eqv? that can produce the wrong answer on numbers, but typically runs in fixed time, unlike the rest 2016-05-24T19:25:20Z groovy2shoes: always seemed pretty damn legacy to me 2016-05-24T19:25:50Z groovy2shoes: I *really* can't think of any natural representation for numbers on modern hardware where eq? wouldn't be identity 2016-05-24T19:27:45Z masoudd: specification seems to go deep about how eqv? on procedures should behave. Is there any implementation that would return #t for this for example? (eqv? (lambda (x) x) (lambda (x) x)) 2016-05-24T19:29:32Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: bignums and rationals often aren't eq? 2016-05-24T19:31:13Z jcowan: flonums often aren't either, though it's possible to check them for numeric equality in O(1) time, unlike the other two 2016-05-24T19:31:56Z jcowan: in Chicken only fixnums are eq? 2016-05-24T19:35:53Z groovy2shoes: huh 2016-05-24T19:36:03Z groovy2shoes: is there some reason why they wouldn't be? 2016-05-24T19:36:05Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-24T19:36:16Z groovy2shoes: like, why shouldn't a bignum just be a pointer under the hood? 2016-05-24T19:36:53Z groovy2shoes: or is it uncommon to intern bignums? 2016-05-24T19:37:06Z leppie: groovy2shoes: yes, but you can't have interned versions for all bignums 2016-05-24T19:37:21Z groovy2shoes: leppie, why's that? 2016-05-24T19:37:48Z leppie: because the universe will run out of space 2016-05-24T19:38:16Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-24T19:41:04Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T19:42:17Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-24T19:46:21Z jcowan: It is uncommon to intern anything except symbols. Fixnums are interned on systems that don't have a bit-tag way to represent them 2016-05-24T19:46:34Z pjb: masoudd: have a look at: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 2016-05-24T19:47:24Z pjb: jcowan: it's a common pattern found in a lot of lisp programs. Sometimes it's done only for space, sometimes it's essential for the algorithms used. 2016-05-24T19:49:04Z jcowan: Reading that paper gave me some of the ideas, when mixed with SRFI 67, that gave me SRFIs 114 and its successor 128. 2016-05-24T19:49:09Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T19:50:02Z pjb: groovy2shoes: there are only on the order of 10^80 atoms in the universe. It's 2^265, a very small number! 2016-05-24T19:50:54Z pjb: Assume we could condensate all the energy in the universe into matter, I doubt we'd double the number of atoms… 2016-05-24T19:51:16Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T19:51:41Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-24T19:53:49Z jcowan: There are Schemes with fixnum sizes as small as 9 bits 2016-05-24T19:54:05Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/FixnumInfo 2016-05-24T19:55:16Z groovy2shoes: pjb, leppie: it seems to me that in the general case, a bignum in its "natural" representation will be larger than a pointer, and I don't see how interning a bignum will run you out of memory any more quickly than interning symbols 2016-05-24T19:55:37Z groovy2shoes: what am I missing? 2016-05-24T19:57:57Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-24T19:59:08Z mokuso quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-24T19:59:22Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-24T19:59:41Z dpk: jcowan: what if you do (eq? n (+ (- n 1) 1)) on the "apparently unbounded fixnums" Schemes? 2016-05-24T19:59:53Z dpk: could be a trick of the reader in not allocating two identical bigints 2016-05-24T20:00:18Z jcowan: My assumption is that if the reader won't do it, the rest of the system surely will not 2016-05-24T20:00:27Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-24T20:00:31Z jcowan: But I can try 2016-05-24T20:00:46Z jcowan: at least for the 64-bit systems 2016-05-24T20:01:10Z groovy2shoes: dpk, it doesn't need to be a reader trick at all... it can be done under the hood any time the implementation creates a bignum 2016-05-24T20:01:20Z dpk: true 2016-05-24T20:01:27Z dpk: (as jcowan just said) 2016-05-24T20:02:13Z jcowan: I think what is happening there is simply that eq? is implemented as eqv?. 2016-05-24T20:02:20Z dpk: ah 2016-05-24T20:03:12Z jcowan: the identity of indiscernibles 2016-05-24T20:04:09Z dpk: why does Scheme even have `eq?` anyway? 2016-05-24T20:04:21Z jcowan: Speed 2016-05-24T20:04:31Z dpk: specifically, why does it have a function which distinguishes between two values 2016-05-24T20:04:34Z dpk: i suppose because Henry Baker hadn't invented egal yet 2016-05-24T20:04:37Z jcowan: Also history: older Lisps had only eq? and equal? 2016-05-24T20:05:35Z dpk nods 2016-05-24T20:06:13Z jcowan: Calling eq? on pairs used to be considered an unprincipled hack 2016-05-24T20:10:40Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T20:15:04Z pierpa: eq? on pairs is ok, I think. eq? is guaranted to work when one of the items it's comparing is a symbol symbols ot a mutable object. This leaves out numbers, chars, functions, and maybe immutable records. 2016-05-24T20:15:21Z pierpa: -symbols 2016-05-24T20:18:34Z wingo: though, (eq? '(a . b) '(a . b)) is unspecified 2016-05-24T20:18:50Z pierpa: because these are immutable conses :) 2016-05-24T20:19:21Z pierpa: ah, yes, bad wording in my previous statement 2016-05-24T20:20:52Z pierpa: and the same is true for literal vectors, then 2016-05-24T20:21:56Z pierpa: and literal strings... 2016-05-24T20:22:02Z pierpa: uff 2016-05-24T20:22:48Z wingo: :) 2016-05-24T20:30:03Z jcowan: eq? defers to eqv? on all types except numbers, characters, and procedures 2016-05-24T20:30:19Z jcowan: so it's about what eqv? does, which is not subject to a brief definition 2016-05-24T20:31:01Z jcowan: The eqv? procedure returns #t if: 2016-05-24T20:31:01Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are both #t or both #f. 2016-05-24T20:31:01Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are both symbols and are the same symbol 2016-05-24T20:31:01Z jcowan: according to the symbol=? procedure (section 6.5). 2016-05-24T20:31:01Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are both exact numbers and are numerically 2016-05-24T20:31:02Z jcowan: equal (in the sense of =). 2016-05-24T20:31:04Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are both inexact numbers such that they 2016-05-24T20:31:06Z jcowan: are numerically equal (in the sense of =) and they yield 2016-05-24T20:31:08Z jcowan: the same results (in the sense of eqv?) when passed as 2016-05-24T20:31:10Z jcowan: arguments to any other procedure that can be defined 2016-05-24T20:31:12Z jcowan: as a finite composition of Scheme’s standard arithmetic 2016-05-24T20:31:14Z jcowan: procedures, provided it does not result in a NaN 2016-05-24T20:31:16Z jcowan: value. 2016-05-24T20:31:18Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are both characters and are the same 2016-05-24T20:31:20Z jcowan: character according to the char=? procedure (section 2016-05-24T20:31:22Z jcowan: 6.6). 2016-05-24T20:31:24Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are both the empty list. 2016-05-24T20:31:26Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are pairs, vectors, bytevectors, records, 2016-05-24T20:31:28Z jcowan: or strings that denote the same location in the store 2016-05-24T20:31:32Z jcowan: (section 3.4). 2016-05-24T20:31:34Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are procedures whose location tags are 2016-05-24T20:31:36Z jcowan: equal (section 4.1.4). 2016-05-24T20:31:38Z jcowan: The eqv? procedure returns #f if: 2016-05-24T20:31:40Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are of different types (section 3.2). 2016-05-24T20:31:42Z jcowan: • one of obj1 and obj2 is #t but the other is #f. 2016-05-24T20:31:44Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are symbols but are not the same symbol 2016-05-24T20:31:46Z jcowan: according to the symbol=? procedure (section 6.5). 2016-05-24T20:31:48Z jcowan: • one of obj1 and obj2 is an exact number but the other 2016-05-24T20:31:50Z jcowan: is an inexact number. 2016-05-24T20:31:52Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are both exact numbers and are numerically 2016-05-24T20:31:54Z jcowan: unequal (in the sense of =). 2016-05-24T20:31:56Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are both inexact numbers such that either 2016-05-24T20:31:58Z jcowan: they are numerically unequal (in the sense of =), 2016-05-24T20:32:02Z jcowan: or they do not yield the same results (in the sense 2016-05-24T20:32:04Z jcowan: of eqv?) when passed as arguments to any other procedure 2016-05-24T20:32:06Z jcowan: that can be defined as a finite composition of 2016-05-24T20:32:08Z jcowan: Scheme’s standard arithmetic procedures, provided it 2016-05-24T20:32:10Z jcowan: does not result in a NaN value. As an exception, the 2016-05-24T20:32:12Z jcowan: behavior of eqv? is unspecified when both obj1 and 2016-05-24T20:32:13Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-24T20:32:14Z jcowan: obj2 are NaN. 2016-05-24T20:32:16Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are characters for which the char=? procedure 2016-05-24T20:32:18Z jcowan: returns #f. 2016-05-24T20:32:20Z jcowan: • one of obj1 and obj2 is the empty list but the other is 2016-05-24T20:32:22Z jcowan: not. 2016-05-24T20:32:24Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are pairs, vectors, bytevectors, records, 2016-05-24T20:32:26Z jcowan: or strings that denote distinct locations. 2016-05-24T20:32:28Z jcowan: • obj1 and obj2 are procedures that would behave differently 2016-05-24T20:32:32Z jcowan: (return different values or have different side 2016-05-24T20:32:34Z jcowan: effects) for some arguments. 2016-05-24T20:32:36Z jcowan: oops, sorry 2016-05-24T20:32:38Z jcowan: meant to paste elsewhere 2016-05-24T20:35:54Z pierpa: no wonder newbies despair on reading about these functions :) 2016-05-24T20:37:21Z jcowan: Indeed, but standards have to spell out all the corner cases 2016-05-24T20:37:35Z jcowan: We leaned very heavily on R6RS for that one, just making a few adjustments. 2016-05-24T20:38:32Z dTal: if you ask me Schem breaks its own design aesthetic with the whole eqv, eq, equal thing 2016-05-24T20:39:00Z davexunit: I don't think it does. equality is not a simple subject. 2016-05-24T20:39:27Z groovy2shoes: sure it is 2016-05-24T20:39:29Z dTal: precisely, which is why it should not overload the word "equals" and then attempt to distinguish its different senses with different spellings 2016-05-24T20:39:43Z groovy2shoes: you have identity, extensional equality, and intensional equality 2016-05-24T20:40:03Z groovy2shoes: extensioinal equality isn't much used in programming 2016-05-24T20:40:05Z davexunit: groovy2shoes: SICP would beg to differ. 2016-05-24T20:40:13Z groovy2shoes: I don't care 2016-05-24T20:40:18Z dTal: they should be labeled more descriptive, verbose predicates like "same-value?", "same-object?", "same-type?" etc 2016-05-24T20:40:21Z davexunit: wonderful 2016-05-24T20:40:37Z davexunit: I'm out, then. 2016-05-24T20:40:57Z davexunit left #scheme 2016-05-24T20:41:02Z dTal: Scheme normally doesn't shy away from verbosity 2016-05-24T20:41:07Z groovy2shoes: SICP was written by some old farts who held on to some quaint notions of things, and even the second edition exhibits a very "late 70s" sort of understanding of the topics it discusses 2016-05-24T20:41:30Z groovy2shoes: we know more now 2016-05-24T20:41:52Z dTal: it's one of the nice things about it - for the cost of a few extra letters of typing, you have less cognitive overhead of remembering what things are 2016-05-24T20:42:02Z jcowan: The "small, diamond-like" business has *never* applied to the standard library, which has evolved rather than being designed 2016-05-24T20:42:20Z dTal: you expect that kind of economy in a language where you do more thinking that typing anyway 2016-05-24T20:42:59Z jcowan: It's fundamentally a rag-bag of things that pre-R2RS implementers were able to agree unanimously that they would provide 2016-05-24T20:43:24Z jcowan: That's why (until R7RS) vectors were undersupported compared to lists 2016-05-24T20:43:25Z groovy2shoes: SICP is a classic, sure, but it's not the end-all, be-all authority on programming nor Scheme 2016-05-24T20:45:07Z groovy2shoes: in fact, I think it's a rather poor introduction to programming for several reasons, but it's redeemed by the fact that it's so mind-blowing... as such, it's more of an eye-opener for already-programmers than a tutorial for neophytes 2016-05-24T20:45:20Z wingo: as opposed to r7rs where no implementor had to agree :) 2016-05-24T20:45:50Z groovy2shoes: and even in that capacity, it could be much better... for already-programmers, the first two chapters are mind-numbingly boring and slow 2016-05-24T20:46:26Z jcowan: One implementer in fact agreed, and several more have followed. 2016-05-24T20:46:34Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-24T20:47:04Z groovy2shoes: then suddenly gets really interesting in ch. 3, then BAM! hits you like a sack of bricks made of insight and wisdom in ch 4, and then refuses to let up in ch 5 2016-05-24T20:48:31Z groovy2shoes: I feel a little unfortunate in that I'd already written a Lisp-in-Lisp by the time I discovered SICP, so it wasn't so mind-blowing for me :( but I can definitely understand how it would be for someone who hadn't encountered that before 2016-05-24T20:50:27Z groovy2shoes: I vehemently agree with the points the HtDP authors raised in their "Structure and Interpretation of the Computer Science Curriculum", but I think they utterly failed to produce a good textbook :( 2016-05-24T20:50:45Z groovy2shoes: (disclaimer: I've only read the first edition... it's possible that the second edition is significantly better) 2016-05-24T20:53:49Z groovy2shoes: it seems like the TeachScheme! guys couldn't make up their minds about who their target audience was with that book... on the one hand, the content seems appropriate for a first course in programming at the university level, but on the other the tone and diction make it read like it's intended for middle school students 2016-05-24T20:54:13Z dTal: that's a common disease 2016-05-24T20:54:20Z dTal: learn you a haskell has the same one 2016-05-24T20:54:34Z groovy2shoes: when I read it, it felt... condescending to me 2016-05-24T20:54:51Z dTal: the first page literally has the words "big scary error message" on it 2016-05-24T20:54:52Z groovy2shoes: you know, it reads the way a children's book reads 2016-05-24T20:55:15Z groovy2shoes: lol yeah! that sort of shit is exactly what I'm talking about! 2016-05-24T20:55:20Z scarygelatin joined #scheme 2016-05-24T20:55:31Z groovy2shoes: it also bothered me that they invented quite a few terms for things that already have well-established terminology 2016-05-24T20:55:34Z dTal: I think, if you've come as far as wanting to learn Haskell, that error messages on blatant syntax errors (trying to add a number and a string) are especially intimidating 2016-05-24T20:55:44Z dTal: *don't think 2016-05-24T20:55:51Z groovy2shoes: which makes it virtually impossible for the curious student to go google that stuff and find more information 2016-05-24T20:55:59Z dTal: *type error 2016-05-24T20:58:48Z moredhel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T20:59:47Z pepton4 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T21:02:37Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-24T21:06:12Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-24T21:13:42Z TCZ joined #scheme 2016-05-24T21:15:00Z TCZ: ()()()()(((()))()()()(((()()()()(HI)()(()((((()()((((()()()() 2016-05-24T21:15:44Z pierpa: ))))))))))))) 2016-05-24T21:16:12Z TCZ: sry my bad 2016-05-24T21:16:15Z TCZ: ;( 2016-05-24T21:17:06Z pierpa: ) 2016-05-24T21:17:12Z TCZ: cmon 2016-05-24T21:17:13Z TCZ: xd 2016-05-24T21:17:15Z pierpa: you are leaving the channel unbalanced! 2016-05-24T21:17:19Z pierpa: :) 2016-05-24T21:17:23Z TCZ: ( 2016-05-24T21:17:26Z TCZ: xaxaxa 2016-05-24T21:19:16Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-24T21:21:17Z jcowan: http://www.disobey.com/wiki/Ghyll:Heh-blammo_balance 2016-05-24T21:23:17Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-24T21:26:51Z groovy2shoes: "Given the presumed origins of the whole silly affair, there is general agreement that the idea of maintaining the balance is merely a drunken joke taken too far. Indeed, there are those that have this view of most religious dogmas. But that's a topic for another article." 2016-05-24T21:26:53Z groovy2shoes: hahahaha 2016-05-24T21:26:57Z groovy2shoes: that's gold 2016-05-24T21:28:38Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, is this from something, or is this whole wiki some sort of literary work? 2016-05-24T21:28:43Z jcowan: sorry, this is a better URL: http://www.gamegrene.com/wiki/Heh-blammo_balance 2016-05-24T21:28:52Z jcowan: It's a game whose product is a wiki 2016-05-24T21:29:21Z turtleman joined #scheme 2016-05-24T21:30:27Z jcowan: players write A articles, then B articles, and so on for as many rounds as patience lasts (in our case, two) 2016-05-24T21:31:02Z groovy2shoes: haha 2016-05-24T21:31:05Z jcowan: http://www.gamegrene.com/wiki/Aquentravalkeration <-- my first entry 2016-05-24T21:34:34Z groovy2shoes: very nice 2016-05-24T21:34:51Z groovy2shoes: it's eerie how much it reads like many things I've read about PIE culture 2016-05-24T21:35:03Z groovy2shoes: especially comparative mythology 2016-05-24T21:35:59Z jcowan: Quite so 2016-05-24T21:36:20Z jcowan: note the date 900 years before the present, which is a loooooooooooong time in Ghyllian chronology 2016-05-24T21:36:34Z groovy2shoes: heheh 2016-05-24T21:36:40Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-24T21:37:21Z jcowan: I like this one too: http://www.gamegrene.com/wiki/Harv_Gretborn 2016-05-24T21:39:27Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-05-24T21:39:44Z groovy2shoes: I'm quite fond of the anthropologists/archaeologists who suggest that the ancient priestly classes were constantly hopped up on drugs 2016-05-24T21:40:27Z groovy2shoes: it makes me hopeful that one day I'll just happen upon some previously unknown yet powerful entheogen ;) 2016-05-24T21:49:22Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-24T21:50:16Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T21:52:07Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-24T21:52:34Z grettke quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-24T21:59:27Z mejja: rudybot: Since documents from that period remain undeciphered, scholars of the present era have had to propound their respective theories based solely on the accompanying illustrations. 2016-05-24T21:59:29Z rudybot: mejja: no idea where i got the word propound :) 2016-05-24T22:00:39Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-24T22:03:41Z madmuppet006 joined #scheme 2016-05-24T22:04:35Z madmuppet006 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-24T22:12:59Z masoudd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T22:22:53Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T22:23:42Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-24T22:29:22Z turbofail joined #scheme 2016-05-24T22:49:25Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T23:05:15Z leppie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-24T23:05:20Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-24T23:08:47Z leppie joined #scheme 2016-05-24T23:09:00Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T23:11:24Z pillton left #scheme 2016-05-24T23:14:45Z masoudd joined #scheme 2016-05-24T23:15:52Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T23:27:18Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-24T23:31:34Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-24T23:51:50Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-05-25T00:08:57Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T00:09:23Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-25T00:12:10Z tax joined #scheme 2016-05-25T00:34:27Z dTal: SO what do we all think of Chez Scheme 2016-05-25T00:35:06Z dTal: it's a native compiler right? 2016-05-25T00:37:39Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T00:44:30Z shdeng joined #scheme 2016-05-25T00:46:29Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T00:48:27Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-25T00:49:07Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T00:55:14Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-25T01:00:43Z groovy2shoes: dTal, there's a compiler and an interpreter (Petite Chez) 2016-05-25T01:01:11Z groovy2shoes: dTal, I've only been using it for about a week and a half so far, and other than the fact that it seems to be missing R7RS, I really like it 2016-05-25T01:03:19Z groovy2shoes: the REPL just works how I expect, and it's very snappy 2016-05-25T01:03:46Z dTal: I've never heard anyone say anything bad about Chez, except that it's commercial 2016-05-25T01:03:55Z dTal: wonder why they freed it 2016-05-25T01:06:32Z groovy2shoes: I don't 2016-05-25T01:06:41Z groovy2shoes: that way can only lead to darkness 2016-05-25T01:06:51Z groovy2shoes: I choose ignorance and bliss :p 2016-05-25T01:07:12Z dTal: aw, what makes you think the answer will be depressing? 2016-05-25T01:07:17Z dTal: yeah the repl makes a nice change from readline huh 2016-05-25T01:10:38Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T01:10:39Z groovy2shoes: yeah... I've just gotten so used to rlwrap that when I get a more integrated line-editing facility, it feels nicer than it probably should lol 2016-05-25T01:10:52Z groovy2shoes: I can really only think of gsi other than petite 2016-05-25T01:11:04Z groovy2shoes: everything else has a bash alias for rlwrap 2016-05-25T01:11:14Z groovy2shoes: I won't complain, though 2016-05-25T01:11:18Z groovy2shoes: thank the gods for rlwrap 2016-05-25T01:11:30Z groovy2shoes: but mostly thank the developer of rlwrap 2016-05-25T01:11:52Z dTal: thank the gods for creating the developer of rlwrap, and by extension rlwrap 2016-05-25T01:12:14Z dTal: but also curse the gods for making a world where rlwrap need to be a thing 2016-05-25T01:12:42Z mejja: groovy2shoes: Maybe you should try a real editor like emacs or edwin? 2016-05-25T01:13:05Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-25T01:13:23Z groovy2shoes: lol edwin ain't a real editor 2016-05-25T01:13:33Z groovy2shoes: and I have emacs, but it's dumb 2016-05-25T01:13:38Z groovy2shoes: it's awesome, but it's dumb 2016-05-25T01:13:53Z dTal: you know maybe, just maybe some of us really like lisp/scheme/s-exprs etc, but don't care for emacs 2016-05-25T01:14:04Z groovy2shoes: like, please sit and wait and do nothing while we intall your MELPA packages... 2016-05-25T01:14:26Z dTal: I keep getting frustrated with everything that isn't emacs, then I try emacs and run away 2016-05-25T01:14:51Z groovy2shoes: I think emacs *could* be awesome 2016-05-25T01:15:53Z groovy2shoes: get that sucker threaded, and freshen up the GUI, and make font-lock-mode not reduce your framerate to 3 fps, and maybe ditch elisp for something better... like scheme for example 2016-05-25T01:16:12Z dTal: I think it has nasty UI issues 2016-05-25T01:16:18Z dTal: I love the concept 2016-05-25T01:16:21Z groovy2shoes: maybe do some weed-eating in the ELPA repos 2016-05-25T01:17:00Z dTal: I just get lost in about 5 minutes in a rapidly expanding balloon of buffers and every little thing seems to be very hard to do 2016-05-25T01:17:14Z groovy2shoes: last time I tried to play around with emacs and slime, I had to wade through 500+ package listings and try to discern what was interesting and what wasn't from a shitty inept name and, if I was lucky, a one-line description of the package 2016-05-25T01:18:01Z groovy2shoes: then once I finally got SLIME to work, I wound up with two inferior lisp buffers somehow, and shit wasn't working right 2016-05-25T01:18:07Z groovy2shoes: and damn it's just so ugly 2016-05-25T01:18:28Z groovy2shoes: I'm not normally so shallow, but come on, this is something that I have to look at for 10+ hours a day as a professional programmer 2016-05-25T01:18:55Z groovy2shoes: gave ERC a try, too, and that sucked 2016-05-25T01:19:11Z groovy2shoes: anyone who thinks ERC is a good IRC client has clearly never used any client other than ERC 2016-05-25T01:19:19Z groovy2shoes: netcat is more pleasant 2016-05-25T01:19:34Z dTal: what gets me is all the emacs packages made by people who obviously don't want to leave emacs for any reason 2016-05-25T01:19:42Z groovy2shoes: so, I'll stick to my vim and REPL, thanks :p 2016-05-25T01:19:49Z dTal: I get it. I sympathise. More power. Build your OS. 2016-05-25T01:20:03Z dTal: But I feel the same way, about the CLI! 2016-05-25T01:20:14Z dTal: I don't want to abandon my world and come to yours. 2016-05-25T01:20:29Z groovy2shoes: there are also a lot of bullshit emacs packages made by some hipster web programmer who only uses spacemacs and thinks that an acceptable MELPA package is his init.el 2016-05-25T01:20:52Z groovy2shoes: also, spacemacs is not acceptabl 2016-05-25T01:20:59Z groovy2shoes: emacs already starts slow 2016-05-25T01:21:12Z dTal: and it's all fine, if Emacs were just somebody's idea of a useful os-in-an-os 2016-05-25T01:21:24Z dTal: but it's also the One True Way to write all lisp 2016-05-25T01:21:38Z groovy2shoes: I don't need to wait for my already-slow editor to byte-compile a gigabyte of elisp that I don't even know what it does and will likely never use 2016-05-25T01:22:05Z groovy2shoes: and did I mention you can't do jack shit with it while it's compiing? 2016-05-25T01:22:16Z dTal: okay Imma stop my anti-Emacs rant now before I get banned 2016-05-25T01:22:27Z groovy2shoes: lol 2016-05-25T01:22:47Z groovy2shoes: as someone stuck with vimscript, I really do often envy elisp-havers 2016-05-25T01:23:04Z dTal: but I think 2 screenfuls of ranting is an adequate response to "use a real editor" :p 2016-05-25T01:23:14Z groovy2shoes: but at the same time, I've never waited more than a fraction of a second for gvim to process my vimscript and give me a functional editor :p 2016-05-25T01:23:41Z dTal: someone should make an unholy hybrid 2016-05-25T01:23:59Z dTal: and don't say vi-mode or whatever it is 2016-05-25T01:23:59Z groovy2shoes: even though I think emacs isn't a great editor, I think it's really pretty cool as a software platform 2016-05-25T01:24:25Z groovy2shoes: if only they could get all the pauses and the slowness and jerkiness worked out, I think it'd be awesome 2016-05-25T01:24:43Z groovy2shoes: dTal, I actually have it on my "list of shit to do when I have time" 2016-05-25T01:25:05Z groovy2shoes: I was going to call it scivi (rhymes with sci-fi) 2016-05-25T01:25:10Z dTal: something more like vi-written-in-scheme 2016-05-25T01:25:18Z groovy2shoes: but it's a vim-alike that's scheme-powered 2016-05-25T01:25:36Z dTal: go for it 2016-05-25T01:25:41Z groovy2shoes: and I do mean vim, and not vi... I'd try to get as close to vim as makes sense 2016-05-25T01:25:59Z groovy2shoes: but the elisp advantage is so much more than *just* the language 2016-05-25T01:26:27Z groovy2shoes: the whole way the editor's primitives are exposed via elisp is what makes it so flexible 2016-05-25T01:26:47Z dTal: yes, it's an interesting way to develop software. 2016-05-25T01:26:47Z groovy2shoes: like, I wouldn't be happy until I had a port of webkit to a scivi buffer :p 2016-05-25T01:26:56Z dTal: oh boy and so it begins :p 2016-05-25T01:27:07Z groovy2shoes: you *did* say unholy, right? 2016-05-25T01:27:12Z dTal: I believe Maya works the same way? Or some autodesk product 2016-05-25T01:27:26Z dTal: small core, and the whole dang thing written in scripts 2016-05-25T01:27:40Z groovy2shoes: I know autocad does, and I think I heard maya uses lisp to some capacity as well 2016-05-25T01:27:52Z groovy2shoes: but I know autocad has it's own dialect and everything 2016-05-25T01:28:02Z groovy2shoes: autolisp or something like that, derived from xlisp back in the 80s 2016-05-25T01:28:12Z dTal: I was forced to use this actually rather intruiging visual dataflow language called Vee for school 2016-05-25T01:28:32Z dTal: I had a look inside a saved .vee file and guess what? All s-expressions! 2016-05-25T01:28:59Z dTal: But it was more data than code, "this pin connects to that pin" etc 2016-05-25T01:29:17Z dTal: but still, Chicken Scheme's pretty printer did a nice number on it 2016-05-25T01:30:15Z dTal: but it makes me wonder who the heck wrote Vee. It had C datatypes and matlab-esque text syntax 2016-05-25T01:30:22Z dTal: some nice array slicing in there 2016-05-25T01:30:53Z dTal: whoever wrote it really got around! 2016-05-25T01:31:04Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-25T01:31:07Z groovy2shoes: lol 2016-05-25T01:31:28Z groovy2shoes: well, we can deduce that their Lisp experience was primarily Common 2016-05-25T01:31:41Z dTal: (as well as matlab-esque syntax it also literally had matlab built in - go figure) 2016-05-25T01:31:56Z dTal: why do you say that? 2016-05-25T01:32:17Z groovy2shoes: because I've never seen a Schemer create such a Frankenstein architecture before 2016-05-25T01:32:26Z dTal: hahaha 2016-05-25T01:32:32Z dTal: makes sense now you say it 2016-05-25T01:33:02Z groovy2shoes: whereas you can download the sources for practically any ol' Common Lisp compiler and you'll see lots of s-expressions with embedded matlab and c datatypes and some sort of weird fasl thing 2016-05-25T01:33:03Z dTal: it had the weirdest paradigm for gui programming I've ever seen 2016-05-25T01:33:28Z dTal: you literally put the gui widgets in the source code as part of the data/control flow 2016-05-25T01:33:38Z dTal: then you added them one by one to a "panel" 2016-05-25T01:33:39Z groovy2shoes: interesting 2016-05-25T01:33:46Z groovy2shoes: not as interesting 2016-05-25T01:34:01Z dTal: you got one "panel" per "user object" 2016-05-25T01:34:13Z groovy2shoes: completely uninteresting 2016-05-25T01:34:23Z groovy2shoes: what's a user object? 2016-05-25T01:34:44Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-25T01:34:49Z dTal: actually it is kinda interesting, they're like subunits but distinct from functions 2016-05-25T01:34:58Z dTal: which you also got 2016-05-25T01:35:37Z dTal: because obviously dataflow programming gets out of hand very quickly on a single screen 2016-05-25T01:35:49Z dTal: so you had to be extremely aggressive about factoring your code 2016-05-25T01:36:47Z groovy2shoes: do you think there was a hard-limit on the expressible computations based on the size of the screen? 2016-05-25T01:36:50Z dTal: as far as I could tell the difference was that pasting function meant calling it, whereas if you pasted a "user object" you got a whole new copy of all that code 2016-05-25T01:38:08Z dTal: no, because you could drag the canvas around - we just got graded on that, we weren't allowed to have any unit bigger than a single screen 2016-05-25T01:38:35Z dTal: but even with that constraint there's nothing stopping you from subdividing it as much as you wanted 2016-05-25T01:38:48Z dTal: it's weird, when I started out I hated it so, so, so much 2016-05-25T01:39:03Z dTal: all this stupid wrist-straining clicking and dragging 2016-05-25T01:39:18Z dTal: by the end it was actually kind of okay 2016-05-25T01:40:19Z groovy2shoes: when I took physics, the lab portion met twice a week, and one of those was computational 2016-05-25T01:40:27Z dTal: it was sort of tempting though, to just do one big "function" object and type the whole thing in text :p 2016-05-25T01:40:32Z groovy2shoes: we'd have some physics problem we were supposed to model in vPython 2016-05-25T01:40:43Z dTal: ooh vPython for the win 2016-05-25T01:41:00Z groovy2shoes: I'd always just push whatever ex-valedictorian sat himself at the keyboard out of the way, blast it out in 10 minutes, and leave 2016-05-25T01:41:19Z groovy2shoes: good times 2016-05-25T01:41:25Z dTal: group work? 2016-05-25T01:41:35Z groovy2shoes: I gave them a new assignment 2016-05-25T01:41:54Z groovy2shoes: as a group, figure out what the hell I just did... you can thank me for the A+ later 2016-05-25T01:42:09Z groovy2shoes: you have 1 hour and 20 minutes to decipher this vPython program 2016-05-25T01:42:20Z groovy2shoes: there's 3 of you... you can handle it 2016-05-25T01:42:31Z dTal: hah, how obfuscated could it possibly be, it's Python... 2016-05-25T01:42:42Z groovy2shoes: it wasn't obfuscated at all 2016-05-25T01:42:49Z dTal: that reminds me, I should try and get vpython working with Hy 2016-05-25T01:42:51Z dTal: for great win 2016-05-25T01:43:04Z groovy2shoes: it's just that the non-CSC kids hadn't taken their fortran class yet and were utterly stupefied by programming 2016-05-25T01:43:21Z groovy2shoes: honestly, the first lab I *tried* to let the group leader do it 2016-05-25T01:43:24Z groovy2shoes: I really did 2016-05-25T01:43:30Z groovy2shoes: but it was just too painful for me to witness 2016-05-25T01:44:06Z groovy2shoes: it's 8:30 in the morning, I'm hungover, I was running late and I didn't finish my cigarette, and I just can't handle you getting confused by Python right now 2016-05-25T01:44:42Z groovy2shoes: so just move, and I'll give you a fine exemplar 2016-05-25T01:44:52Z dTal: some kid wanted to intern at my last job, and as the sole software guy it was my job to interview him 2016-05-25T01:45:07Z groovy2shoes: how old was this 'kid'? 2016-05-25T01:45:25Z groovy2shoes: also, how awesome was it being the sole software guy? 2016-05-25T01:45:25Z dTal: uh, uni age? wet behind the ears. Maybe 22? I dunno 2016-05-25T01:45:46Z dTal: it was by turns frustrating and extremely, extremely awesome 2016-05-25T01:46:01Z groovy2shoes: I dunno, by the time I was 22 I'd already been programming for 12 years and had written 4 compilers, including a self-hosting lisp dialect :p 2016-05-25T01:46:03Z dTal: only job I've ever managed to exercise a decent range of my talents 2016-05-25T01:46:27Z dTal: well, right. So I asked him what he'd programmed before. 2016-05-25T01:46:34Z dTal: he produced about 2 screenfuls of maybe the most awkwardly written python I've ever seen 2016-05-25T01:46:35Z groovy2shoes: jerva 2016-05-25T01:46:46Z groovy2shoes: not even jerva?! 2016-05-25T01:46:50Z dTal: lots of repetition, no abstraction to speak of 2016-05-25T01:47:01Z groovy2shoes: sounds like my teammate Steve 2016-05-25T01:47:15Z dTal: he revealed that he'd done this in school, and it had taken him, incrementally, the entire year (!) 2016-05-25T01:47:16Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-25T01:47:32Z groovy2shoes: who thinks that the sole purpose of functions is "if you have more than 40 lines of code in your function, start a new function! 2016-05-25T01:47:34Z groovy2shoes: " 2016-05-25T01:47:44Z groovy2shoes: wat 2016-05-25T01:47:48Z groovy2shoes: holy shit 2016-05-25T01:48:03Z dTal: yeah, I couldn't even 2016-05-25T01:48:06Z groovy2shoes: wait, was that for a class? or he was doing it in his spare time? 2016-05-25T01:48:11Z dTal: a class 2016-05-25T01:48:19Z groovy2shoes: oh. my. gods. 2016-05-25T01:48:30Z dTal: must have been at a rate of like, 1 line of python a week 2016-05-25T01:48:33Z groovy2shoes: what uni did he attend? I'd like to make sure I blacklist any applicants from there. 2016-05-25T01:48:59Z dTal: you know, I can't recall 2016-05-25T01:49:05Z groovy2shoes: aw, okay 2016-05-25T01:49:16Z dTal: but I'm sure your hiring practices will catch such people, if they're any good :p 2016-05-25T01:49:19Z groovy2shoes: that just means I'll have to not be lazy and actually ask them to produce a code sample 2016-05-25T01:49:34Z groovy2shoes: we actually haven't had any turnover on my current team 2016-05-25T01:49:49Z groovy2shoes: it's a fairly new team -- only been in existence for 3 years, but we're still all-original 2016-05-25T01:49:53Z dTal: just have them say, aloud, a single valid line of Python 2016-05-25T01:50:04Z masoudd quit (Quit: May your strings always be '\0' terminated.) 2016-05-25T01:50:47Z groovy2shoes: I'm lead developer, and my other developers... one is fresh off the boat AND fresh out of school, one is a middle-aged EE who'd only ever written a few korn shell scripts (and not well, might I add) 2016-05-25T01:51:21Z dTal: oh man, fear the middle-aged EE 2016-05-25T01:51:40Z groovy2shoes: the EE now maintains a rather large Python codebase... I turned it over to him and within 4 months he'd managed to add a function that had 23 `global` statements at the top -_- 2016-05-25T01:52:00Z groovy2shoes: and lots of other minor horrors 2016-05-25T01:52:05Z dTal: "middle-aged EE" says to me "will get the job done, doesn't care how" 2016-05-25T01:52:34Z groovy2shoes: but I pretty much just let him own that codebase... he's actually been able to learn the hard way just maintaining his own code how to write more maintainable code, so that's a plus 2016-05-25T01:53:15Z groovy2shoes: my favorite part was when he re-"architected" the parser because he thought my architecture for it was too confusing 2016-05-25T01:53:19Z dTal: there's something about EE, as a field, that drives any silly idealistic notions of purity, exactitude, or a "correct" way to do things clean out of your head 2016-05-25T01:53:26Z groovy2shoes: after two months it was back the way I'd had it LOL 2016-05-25T01:53:57Z groovy2shoes: yeah, I work for an EDA company, so there's more EEs than programmers 2016-05-25T01:54:01Z dTal: That's why I think Djkstra was harsh on BASIC 2016-05-25T01:54:13Z dTal: you have to get lost in GOTO hell to realise why it's bad 2016-05-25T01:54:33Z dTal: EDA? 2016-05-25T01:54:38Z groovy2shoes: well, the BASIC Dijkstra was hard on was not nearly the same as the BASIC I and many other cut our teeth on 2016-05-25T01:54:53Z groovy2shoes: I was fortunate to have STRUCTURED BASIC!! 2016-05-25T01:54:57Z groovy2shoes: (MS QuickBASIC) 2016-05-25T01:55:14Z groovy2shoes: EDA = Electronics Design {Automation,Assistance} 2016-05-25T01:55:23Z dTal: Heh I cut my teeth on QBasic, never used the subroutines though 2016-05-25T01:55:45Z groovy2shoes: I don't think I'd ever written my own subs before I moved on to C 2016-05-25T01:56:21Z dTal: I think BASIC was the last language I ever really "knew" in a real sense though 2016-05-25T01:56:38Z dTal: in that I could sit down and rattle off a program to do the thing I wanted it to do 2016-05-25T01:56:54Z groovy2shoes: I started with good ol' QB, but one of my dad's coworkers told me that all the game developers use C 2016-05-25T01:57:21Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T01:57:22Z groovy2shoes: so I went to the public library and checked out a book on C++, got home and downloaded Quincy C which was the only C interpreter I could find 2016-05-25T01:57:24Z dTal: now I "know" way more languages than I can count, but I have to consult google for every single darned one, yes even C as soon as it gets nontrivial 2016-05-25T01:57:47Z groovy2shoes: there are a few I'm pretty comfortable in 2016-05-25T01:58:38Z groovy2shoes: C, Java, Scheme, Lua, Lemma, {,ba,k}sh, Mantra 2016-05-25T01:58:49Z dTal: I think it might be paradigm paralysis 2016-05-25T01:58:52Z groovy2shoes: those are the ones I can do without needing to google every 20 minutes 2016-05-25T01:58:58Z turtleman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T01:59:06Z groovy2shoes: my C++ is mostly just C with the STL 2016-05-25T01:59:09Z dTal: no matter what language I'm in, I can always think of a language with a better way of doing that thing 2016-05-25T01:59:14Z groovy2shoes: and I like it that way, godsdamnit! 2016-05-25T01:59:31Z groovy2shoes: oh! and Standard ML 2016-05-25T01:59:35Z groovy2shoes: pretty comfy with that one 2016-05-25T01:59:35Z dTal: so I don't really throw myself into it the way I did before I knew any better 2016-05-25T01:59:44Z groovy2shoes: ah 2016-05-25T01:59:55Z groovy2shoes: I went through a stage like that 2016-05-25T02:00:16Z groovy2shoes: I think that's how you are before you get made cynical by being forced to write C++ for everything 2016-05-25T02:00:54Z groovy2shoes: like, you learn some awesome and powerful language, then anytime you're using something else, you're like, "THIS WOULD BE SO MUCH BETTER IN X" 2016-05-25T02:01:33Z groovy2shoes: but I promise, after you spend 3 years writing C++ (read: C with STL and Boost) you kind of give up on life 2016-05-25T02:01:40Z dTal: I hope never to do that 2016-05-25T02:01:47Z dTal: actually, C++ is one of my blind spots 2016-05-25T02:01:58Z dTal: I try and only learn languages with paradigms to teach 2016-05-25T02:02:01Z groovy2shoes: and then you don't even give a shit whether anything would be better in Scheme or Python or Kitten or what-have-you 2016-05-25T02:02:20Z dTal: so C is in, but C++ is just C with ugly knobs on so it's out 2016-05-25T02:02:48Z dTal: I know, there's more too it than that, but I've never heard anyone say that C++ elevated their thinking 2016-05-25T02:02:59Z groovy2shoes: I'm just a language nerd, so I learn anything I can make an excuse to learn lol 2016-05-25T02:03:06Z groovy2shoes: obviously, some are better than others 2016-05-25T02:03:44Z groovy2shoes: I've got 38 languages under my belt at this point, and I'm always looking to add more (or to get more familiar with some of the ones I don't know particularly well, like Haskell) 2016-05-25T02:04:08Z Shadox joined #scheme 2016-05-25T02:04:12Z groovy2shoes: honestly? I hate C++ and I'd much rather write C 2016-05-25T02:04:17Z dTal: and I'm addicted to this one bit of syntax that's in nothing except the TI-89 (and math in general) 2016-05-25T02:04:24Z groovy2shoes: which is actually why I write it as C with STL 2016-05-25T02:04:32Z groovy2shoes: I get those data structures basically for free 2016-05-25T02:04:50Z dTal: x+2|x=3 for (let ((x 3)) (+ x 2)) 2016-05-25T02:04:53Z groovy2shoes: it's not that I don't know how OO C++ works, it's just that I find it ugly and unnecessary 2016-05-25T02:05:53Z dTal: I can honestly say I've never written any code with objects, except to use libraries 2016-05-25T02:06:29Z dTal: I tell myself I should think of a project that can't easily be done any other way, just so I can really grasp the point of them 2016-05-25T02:07:00Z groovy2shoes: there really aren't a hell of a lot of such projects 2016-05-25T02:07:13Z groovy2shoes: GUI stuff tends to be nicer with OO 2016-05-25T02:07:44Z dTal: most of the languages I know don't really emphasize them, except Python which seems to have a bit of a fetish 2016-05-25T02:07:50Z groovy2shoes: I'll take CLOS-style OO over Simula/Smalltalk-style OO any day 2016-05-25T02:08:17Z groovy2shoes: I can never think of a lot of times where classes are particularly necessary, but multimethods come in handy quite a bit 2016-05-25T02:14:13Z m0li quit (Quit: .) 2016-05-25T02:15:05Z dTal: Hmm, does Chez actually support making standalone binaries? I can't figure out how 2016-05-25T02:15:33Z turbofail: my understanding is no 2016-05-25T02:16:14Z groovy2shoes: well, it creates its own standalone binaries somehow 2016-05-25T02:16:27Z dTal: excellent point 2016-05-25T02:20:23Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2016-05-25T02:21:38Z dTal: I'd love to see a thorough comparison of Chez and Chicken 2016-05-25T02:22:27Z dTal: Chicken's binaries are really lightweight, for a Scheme 2016-05-25T02:24:21Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T02:25:04Z dTal: but a compiler that doesn't go through C has the potential to generate faster code, since it has access to higher abstractions tham the C compiler does 2016-05-25T02:25:23Z dTal: on the other hand, C compilers have had many more hours of work put it 2016-05-25T02:26:10Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T02:27:57Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-25T02:40:50Z scarygelatin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T02:51:22Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-25T02:53:24Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-25T03:08:03Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T03:13:50Z groovy2shoes: dTal, don't forget that chicken's binaries also need libchicken.so (an extra 4 MB on my system) and possibly some other shared libs depending on which modules are used (the heftiest of which is 202 KB on my system, but it looks like most of them are in the 7-28 KB range except for a couple in the mid-100s KB range) 2016-05-25T03:16:02Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-25T03:16:15Z groovy2shoes: Gambit-C, on the other hand, links the runtime statically... it's a little heaver at 4.7 MB on my system, though one of the nice things about static linking is that the linker will only link the stuff that's actually *used* by the executable being processed) 2016-05-25T03:16:27Z mejja: 4 MB is nothing these days. 2016-05-25T03:16:39Z groovy2shoes: that's heavily context-dependent 2016-05-25T03:17:28Z groovy2shoes: if you're targeting an embedded system that has a total of 4 MB of R/W memory, then 4 MB is a lot still 2016-05-25T03:20:25Z groovy2shoes: if you've got 2 MB, which is more common, even, then you're SOL 2016-05-25T03:44:48Z mbuf joined #scheme 2016-05-25T03:54:01Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-25T03:59:48Z madmuppet006 joined #scheme 2016-05-25T04:01:39Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T04:10:24Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-25T04:15:16Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2016-05-25T04:16:29Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T04:22:50Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-25T04:24:15Z madmuppet006: I am trying to use a procedure from an alist .. I have written a procedure based on the little schemer to create a calculator .. but it is not working because I cannot get the procedure in the alist to work properly .. I have gone on a forum and asked for advice and they showed me how to do the alist so Im not sure what I am doing wrong ,, my code is at http://pastebin.com/XxEaGc1v 2016-05-25T04:27:05Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-25T04:38:04Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T04:39:28Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T04:48:27Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-25T04:50:04Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-25T04:52:13Z zacts joined #scheme 2016-05-25T04:58:25Z bjz joined #scheme 2016-05-25T04:59:37Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-25T04:59:51Z bjz_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-25T05:00:26Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-25T05:04:50Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-25T05:06:45Z madmuppet006 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T05:08:18Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2016-05-25T05:13:34Z noethics quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T05:19:28Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T05:19:29Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-25T05:20:45Z jim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T05:27:28Z jim joined #scheme 2016-05-25T05:33:23Z n_blownapart quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T05:44:36Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-05-25T05:54:06Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-25T06:03:36Z wasamasa: expiring pastebins suck 2016-05-25T06:04:59Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-25T06:07:32Z aeth: wasamasa: http://paste.lisp.org/+6SER 2016-05-25T06:07:47Z wasamasa rolls eyes 2016-05-25T06:08:54Z aeth: I agree, though 2016-05-25T06:09:19Z aeth: People who are reading logs in an hour or later won't realize the very bad joke I just made 2016-05-25T06:09:27Z aeth: Or maybe it was an awesome joke. They will never know. 2016-05-25T06:22:08Z turbofail left #scheme 2016-05-25T06:26:08Z nilg` joined #scheme 2016-05-25T06:31:29Z C-Keen: evhan: fuck posix 2016-05-25T06:31:31Z C-Keen: :) 2016-05-25T06:35:55Z niklasl3 joined #scheme 2016-05-25T06:38:15Z Shadox quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T06:52:04Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-25T06:53:29Z aries_liuxueyang joined #scheme 2016-05-25T06:54:40Z niklasl3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T07:10:24Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2016-05-25T07:13:46Z pobivan joined #scheme 2016-05-25T07:14:12Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-25T07:15:53Z andrewvic quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-25T07:17:07Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2016-05-25T07:19:03Z pobivan_ joined #scheme 2016-05-25T07:21:12Z pobivan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T07:21:13Z pobivan_ is now known as pobivan 2016-05-25T07:23:01Z Flippers is now known as Menche 2016-05-25T07:40:37Z bjz_ joined #scheme 2016-05-25T07:42:23Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-25T07:43:39Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-25T07:55:14Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-25T07:56:58Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-05-25T08:08:12Z bogdanm joined #scheme 2016-05-25T08:18:08Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T08:19:04Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-25T08:21:03Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T08:23:38Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-25T08:28:08Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-05-25T08:33:28Z przl_ joined #scheme 2016-05-25T08:34:07Z przl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T08:38:59Z alezost quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T08:38:59Z zacts joined #scheme 2016-05-25T08:43:39Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T08:44:35Z nilg` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T08:56:26Z civodul joined #scheme 2016-05-25T09:02:55Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-05-25T09:13:16Z dan joined #scheme 2016-05-25T09:17:36Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-25T09:29:15Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-25T09:30:44Z dan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T09:35:34Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-25T09:46:03Z Dan1973 joined #scheme 2016-05-25T09:47:07Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2016-05-25T09:49:56Z black0range joined #scheme 2016-05-25T09:52:56Z black0range: Hello! I'm trying to make a Scheme interpeter, and got stuck on continuations, when you call a continuation does the call to that continuation create a new environment or should it simply re-use the pre-existing environment from it's context? 2016-05-25T09:53:35Z black0range: Sorry for the bad grammar :) 2016-05-25T09:55:56Z Dan1973 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T09:58:10Z mbuf joined #scheme 2016-05-25T10:02:39Z z0d: black0range: I think it saves the current one, but let's wait for the clever guys 2016-05-25T10:04:07Z ecraven: black0range: the call should use the existing environment (it's meant to "continue" there :) 2016-05-25T10:06:40Z black0range: Does that mean that there are several kinds of procedures in scheme? 2016-05-25T10:07:31Z ecraven: well, you need support for continuations in the interpreter.. but the programmer of your system can use continuations in the same way s/he uses any other procedure 2016-05-25T10:08:10Z black0range: well yes of course but "under the hood" that means that there must be several kindsof procedures 2016-05-25T10:08:11Z Muir joined #scheme 2016-05-25T10:08:31Z ecraven: black0range: you need that anyway, for primitives, apply, things like that 2016-05-25T10:09:37Z black0range: Well yes of course :) 2016-05-25T10:12:00Z black0range: Thanks for the answer! 2016-05-25T10:12:02Z black0range left #scheme 2016-05-25T10:14:16Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T10:16:47Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-05-25T10:16:54Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-25T10:22:14Z mbuf joined #scheme 2016-05-25T10:26:30Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T10:32:27Z madmuppet006 joined #scheme 2016-05-25T10:48:51Z madmuppet006: I am trying to write a calculator procedure based on the little schemer. I want to use an a-list to provide a series of function calls but do not know how to do it successfully. any help appreciated .. my best attempt so far http://pastebin.com/Ni58NgJ2 2016-05-25T10:57:42Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-25T11:01:00Z bigfondue joined #scheme 2016-05-25T11:09:34Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-25T11:13:05Z taij33n- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T11:14:40Z taij33n joined #scheme 2016-05-25T11:16:06Z ski joined #scheme 2016-05-25T11:18:27Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-25T11:23:05Z ecraven: hm... libldap sure has bad documentation, code samples and API :-/ 2016-05-25T11:23:33Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T11:35:52Z schemeirc joined #scheme 2016-05-25T11:36:32Z schemeirc: hi, I have a question on error handling. Lets say my method has 3 variables, how do I display the three variables in an error message? e.g. the first two can be shown using ~s and then ~s~n, but what about the third? 2016-05-25T11:41:41Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-25T11:46:34Z ecraven: schemeirc: use another ~s? 2016-05-25T11:46:48Z ecraven: ~s shows the thing, ~n is just a newline 2016-05-25T11:47:02Z schemeirc: oh... you can repeatedly use ~s? 2016-05-25T11:47:08Z ecraven: as often as you want 2016-05-25T11:47:50Z schemeirc: I see, thanks! 2016-05-25T11:49:42Z schemeirc: can you do an actual operations in error messages? e.g. let's say I test the value 1+2 and see if it's equal to 0, since it's not, it shows an error message and displays the actual output which is 3 2016-05-25T11:50:15Z ecraven: schemeirc: you can do that with a macro 2016-05-25T11:50:29Z schemeirc: (im new to scheme) what's a macro? :) 2016-05-25T11:50:51Z ecraven: schemeirc: code that generates code. you might want to look at macros later, when you have the basics down 2016-05-25T11:50:51Z groovy2shoes: or... an if/cond expression... 2016-05-25T11:51:22Z ecraven: schemeirc: I'm not sure I understand what you want, can you explain again? 2016-05-25T11:51:30Z groovy2shoes: function would work just as well in this case 2016-05-25T11:51:44Z schemeirc: Yeah sure hold on, let me show you the code so then you can get a better understanding of what I'm trying to do 2016-05-25T11:53:49Z groovy2shoes: (define (assert-zero val msg) (if (zero? val) val (error "assert-zero failed: ~s: ~a" msg val))) 2016-05-25T11:54:10Z schemeirc: http://pastebin.com/cz01cTKy 2016-05-25T11:55:00Z schemeirc: where it says ACTUAL-OUTPUT, I don't suppose I can do an actual operations there to display the real answer? 2016-05-25T11:55:22Z ecraven: do you want to see (+ 1 2 3)? or 6? 2016-05-25T11:55:49Z schemeirc: 6 2016-05-25T11:56:06Z ecraven: well, that would be (apply candidate output), wouldn't it? 2016-05-25T11:56:17Z ecraven: s/output/input/ 2016-05-25T11:56:48Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T11:57:28Z schemeirc: Ah, so you can do things within parenthesis 2016-05-25T11:57:44Z schemeirc: man I couldn't figure that out, you're a life saver, thank you! 2016-05-25T11:57:57Z ecraven: well, you apply procedures inside parentheses :) 2016-05-25T11:58:10Z schemeirc: yeah, I see 2016-05-25T11:58:15Z ecraven: (+ 1 2 3) applies + to 1 2 3, (apply candidate input) applies apply to candidate and input 2016-05-25T11:58:17Z ecraven: etc. 2016-05-25T11:59:21Z ski: rudybot: eval (apply + (list 1 2 3)) 2016-05-25T11:59:21Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 6 2016-05-25T11:59:32Z madmuppet006: can anyone help me with generating a procedure out of an a-list my work so far is at http://pastebin.com/Ni58NgJ2 2016-05-25T12:01:49Z m0li joined #scheme 2016-05-25T12:03:33Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T12:04:07Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-25T12:04:36Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-25T12:05:58Z groovy2shoes: madmuppet006, http://pastebin.com/pBuVd4bx 2016-05-25T12:07:20Z madmuppet006: groovy2shoes:thanks taken me awhile to get things going after you helped me out couple of nights ago .. 2016-05-25T12:07:45Z groovy2shoes: schemeirc, how is it that you're going about learning scheme? I mean, the "you do things in parens" is like some page 2 shit... 2016-05-25T12:08:06Z groovy2shoes: might want to consider a better book / tutorial / whatever 2016-05-25T12:09:15Z groovy2shoes: madmuppet006, what's the problem? 2016-05-25T12:10:39Z schemeirc: groovy2shoes I'm bad at books, so I learn by trying things :/ May not be the best way but it's just how I learn better 2016-05-25T12:10:55Z madmuppet006: groovy2shoes:I sorta knew where my problem lay but finding documentation that explained how to go about fixing it .. still havent found it .. thanks for the help or I would still be looking 2016-05-25T12:12:11Z schemeirc quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-25T12:20:23Z TCZ joined #scheme 2016-05-25T12:22:04Z madmuppet006 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T12:22:36Z arbv joined #scheme 2016-05-25T12:27:27Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-25T12:36:15Z ggole joined #scheme 2016-05-25T12:38:35Z leot quit (Quit: BBIAB) 2016-05-25T12:41:07Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-25T12:47:45Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-25T12:48:50Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-25T12:50:04Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T12:53:09Z turtleman joined #scheme 2016-05-25T12:57:54Z bjz_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T12:59:31Z noethics joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:04:31Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T13:07:26Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:07:27Z turtleman quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-25T13:07:33Z bjz joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:07:49Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2016-05-25T13:09:35Z Muir quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T13:16:22Z dTal: hmm benchmarks on the Larceny Scheme website claim that it smashes everything else 2016-05-25T13:17:12Z dTal: so consistently (while the other implentations shuffle about a bit) that it's a mite suspicious 2016-05-25T13:18:06Z dTal: that must surely be at least in part because whoever wrote the benchmarks was most familiar with Larceny's performance model 2016-05-25T13:18:58Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T13:18:58Z taij33n quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T13:19:04Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:20:54Z taij33n joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:20:56Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:21:02Z dTal: ahh, they don't compare it with Chez, only petite Chez 2016-05-25T13:21:22Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:27:09Z ecraven: dTal: those benchmarks are generic, not tailored to larceny 2016-05-25T13:27:21Z ecraven: see http://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html 2016-05-25T13:27:30Z ecraven: larceny *is* very fast :) 2016-05-25T13:27:51Z ecraven: hm.. unfortunate that Scribe went nowhere, that would actually be a decent alternative to org-mode / tex / ... 2016-05-25T13:31:22Z dTal: yeah I found that later 2016-05-25T13:31:40Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:32:17Z mejja: https://github.com/larcenists/larceny/blob/master/src/Rts/Sys/version.c#L66 2016-05-25T13:32:18Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/XMjyqdBaph 2016-05-25T13:32:20Z mejja: ;-) 2016-05-25T13:33:07Z dTal: it's a nice time for scheme 2016-05-25T13:33:09Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-25T13:33:54Z dTal: I wish there were a big push to make syntaxy languages that compile to scheme, as well as the recent trend of putting lispy syntaxes on other languages 2016-05-25T13:34:24Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:34:46Z dTal: scheme has a really nice mix of "high level", "fast", and "clean compile target" 2016-05-25T13:36:35Z bjz quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-25T13:36:35Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-25T13:37:50Z bjz joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:39:04Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:39:07Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:45:47Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-25T13:47:37Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:50:16Z lritter joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:50:45Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-25T13:54:22Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T13:55:40Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-25T13:55:48Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-25T13:55:49Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-25T14:05:12Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T14:05:45Z karswell joined #scheme 2016-05-25T14:09:39Z galex-713 joined #scheme 2016-05-25T14:11:50Z galex-713: Hi 2016-05-25T14:11:56Z galex-713: How can I apply or to a list? 2016-05-25T14:12:24Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-25T14:12:41Z z0d: OR is not a function AFAIK 2016-05-25T14:12:44Z galex-713: like (apply or list) or (map or list) (btw actually what’s the difference between both? except the feature of “apply” to have more optional arguments) 2016-05-25T14:12:57Z galex-713: z0d: yes, that’s the point, so I don’t know how to do that in scheme :*/ 2016-05-25T14:13:05Z galex-713: *:/ 2016-05-25T14:13:38Z fizzie: You can define your own (recursive) procedure version of or. 2016-05-25T14:13:47Z galex-713: With other dialects, I used to do “(eval (cons 'or list))” instead, but it seems eval don’t return the result of what it evals 2016-05-25T14:14:28Z galex-713: oh wait, I understood my misleading with map and apply 2016-05-25T14:14:31Z ski: rudybot: eval (any odd? (list 4 2 8 5)) 2016-05-25T14:14:31Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: #t 2016-05-25T14:14:33Z nowhereman joined #scheme 2016-05-25T14:14:34Z ski: rudybot: eval (any odd? (list 4 2 8)) 2016-05-25T14:14:34Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: #f 2016-05-25T14:14:38Z galex-713: Anyway, so I’m forced to do my own or? 2016-05-25T14:14:49Z ski: possibly you want `any' rather than `or' 2016-05-25T14:15:03Z ski: (otherwise you'll compute all the booleans, regardless) 2016-05-25T14:15:11Z galex-713: what’s any? 2016-05-25T14:15:28Z galex-713: I don’t find it in r5rs, what section is it? 2016-05-25T14:15:29Z ski: checks whether there's an element in the given list which satisfies the given predicate 2016-05-25T14:15:44Z ski: rudybot: eval (require srfi/1) 2016-05-25T14:15:45Z rudybot: ski: Done. 2016-05-25T14:15:51Z galex-713: ah okkkk 2016-05-25T14:16:20Z ski: galex-713 : 2016-05-25T14:16:29Z ski: (where is specbot when you need it ?) 2016-05-25T14:16:49Z galex-713: oh cool 2016-05-25T14:17:11Z galex-713: yeah, I found it in guile manual :/ 2016-05-25T14:17:12Z galex-713: *:) 2016-05-25T14:17:42Z ski: so, if you wanted to do something like `(apply or (map pred? the-list))', then you can do `(any pred? the-list)' instead 2016-05-25T14:18:06Z ski: similarly for `and' and `every' 2016-05-25T14:18:21Z galex-713: ok 2016-05-25T14:18:44Z galex-713: I read any does that sequentially, is there a unordered version that might be parallel? 2016-05-25T14:19:48Z mejja: galex-713: Unlikely 2016-05-25T14:20:03Z galex-713: Oh :( is there a special reason for that? 2016-05-25T14:20:18Z mejja: in guile try: (apropos "or-map") 2016-05-25T14:20:55Z galex-713: (also, to be sure I’m not telling bullshit, when I read “foo procedure do that in some unordered way” that mean it can be implemented to be parallel right?) 2016-05-25T14:24:06Z galex-713: mejja: is that in r5rs? can’t find document on it in either guile ref or r5rs :/ 2016-05-25T14:24:16Z galex-713: (and apropos gives me only args) 2016-05-25T14:28:27Z grettke quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-25T14:34:09Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T14:41:25Z xue_ joined #scheme 2016-05-25T14:42:01Z xue_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-25T14:42:55Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T14:44:45Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-05-25T14:45:02Z jlongster quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-25T14:50:22Z galex-713: mejja: it seems or-map is sequential too… unless let or other tail-recursive functions can be parallel? 2016-05-25T14:51:33Z Riastradh: galex-713: Nothing in Scheme is going to be automatically parallelized. 2016-05-25T14:51:49Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-25T14:52:08Z Riastradh: `an unspecified order' -- e.g., for the evaluation of operands in a procedure call, for the order of applications of the procedure in MAP -- means *some* sequential order, but which one it is is unspecified. 2016-05-25T14:52:37Z galex-713: ohhhh ok 2016-05-25T14:53:06Z galex-713: Riastradh: so that means within scheme parallelization can be only done on a higher level? 2016-05-25T14:54:48Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-25T14:56:21Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T14:57:14Z mejja: You might have found an interesting thesis topic. Go for it! 2016-05-25T14:59:00Z mejja: galex-713: Start here: http://library.readscheme.org/page9.html 2016-05-25T14:59:41Z xue_ joined #scheme 2016-05-25T15:06:34Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2016-05-25T15:09:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:18:18Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-05-25T15:20:51Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:24:09Z profess joined #scheme 2016-05-25T15:26:45Z Crashlog joined #scheme 2016-05-25T15:27:36Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-25T15:28:29Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-05-25T15:32:41Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-05-25T15:33:14Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:39:34Z pepton4 joined #scheme 2016-05-25T15:42:33Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:43:29Z petercom1and is now known as petercommand 2016-05-25T15:44:35Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T15:46:10Z samw3 joined #scheme 2016-05-25T15:47:29Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-05-25T15:48:40Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T15:49:21Z groovy2shoes: dTal, actually, under certain conditions and for many applications, it *does* blow past every other impl... except chez, which, of course, was not free at the time 2016-05-25T15:50:19Z groovy2shoes: dTal, however, it's become less-and-less relevant the longer it goes without amd64 or arm support... 2016-05-25T15:52:21Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-25T15:54:33Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-25T15:55:28Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-25T15:57:45Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:58:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-25T16:01:02Z mokuso quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-25T16:01:08Z turtleman joined #scheme 2016-05-25T16:01:37Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2016-05-25T16:02:18Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T16:03:04Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2016-05-25T16:05:12Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T16:07:08Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T16:10:00Z alexei_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-25T16:10:41Z alexei_ joined #scheme 2016-05-25T16:23:52Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-25T16:32:39Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-25T16:33:40Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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But I think that chez's built in `current-time` is overriding the one I am importing. 2016-05-25T17:01:41Z nevsven: I think the library is loading, as I am able to use date->string. 2016-05-25T17:02:44Z nevsven: How can I prefer the `(import (srfi :19))` instead of the built-in? 2016-05-25T17:05:24Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-05-25T17:08:38Z Manbearpig joined #scheme 2016-05-25T17:08:52Z nevsven: I found the `prefix` part of import, and now I am doubting that the library works. As it seems to be exceptioning. Hmph. 2016-05-25T17:08:54Z Manbearpig quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-25T17:09:27Z |2701 joined #scheme 2016-05-25T17:11:50Z moredhel joined #scheme 2016-05-25T17:12:22Z groscoe quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T17:16:08Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-25T17:19:32Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-05-25T17:27:36Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T17:28:10Z rjnw joined #scheme 2016-05-25T17:28:21Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2016-05-25T17:32:23Z xue_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T17:34:57Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-05-25T17:39:08Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-25T17:53:37Z ggole quit 2016-05-25T17:55:13Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-25T17:59:21Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T18:02:13Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T18:04:41Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T18:06:51Z Tenhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T18:10:49Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-05-25T18:11:15Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-05-25T18:21:09Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T18:31:15Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-25T18:41:13Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-25T18:41:59Z nilg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T18:43:48Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T18:43:57Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T18:51:31Z przl joined #scheme 2016-05-25T18:54:51Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-25T18:55:47Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-25T18:58:04Z pobivan joined #scheme 2016-05-25T19:00:16Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T19:08:04Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-25T19:08:56Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-05-25T19:10:56Z zalatovo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T19:12:39Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-25T19:17:36Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-25T19:20:35Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2016-05-25T19:34:25Z jcowan joined #scheme 2016-05-25T19:35:03Z jcowan: hey ho hey 2016-05-25T19:35:25Z C-Keen: hey ho, let's go! 2016-05-25T19:38:44Z wasamasa: thanks for speaking out what I was thinking every time jcowan joined 2016-05-25T19:39:18Z C-Keen: I couldn't stop myself 2016-05-25T19:39:27Z wasamasa: :> 2016-05-25T19:39:48Z jcowan chuckles 2016-05-25T19:40:07Z jcowan: more like "ho hey, whaddaya say?" 2016-05-25T19:41:31Z C-Keen: John Forslund? 2016-05-25T19:42:21Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-25T19:46:47Z SamF joined #scheme 2016-05-25T19:49:55Z rjnw quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-25T19:51:05Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-05-25T19:52:11Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-25T21:03:55Z mfranzwa joined #scheme 2016-05-25T21:04:10Z groovy2shoes: does anyone know if it's possible to get "email updates" for each post to a Google group you're subscribed to? 2016-05-25T21:04:47Z groovy2shoes: I only see "daily summaries", "combined updates", and "no updates" as options, but I'd prefer it to work a little more like a mailing list... 2016-05-25T21:06:03Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T21:06:42Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T21:06:56Z jorrakay: there should be an option for "send me an email for every new message" or something like that 2016-05-25T21:07:04Z jcowan: Go into My Settings (the person + gear dingus in the upper right) 2016-05-25T21:07:19Z jcowan: choose "Membership and email settings" 2016-05-25T21:07:38Z wasamasa: lol, dingus 2016-05-25T21:08:26Z jorrakay: i think i found a new way to refer to hamburger menu 2016-05-25T21:08:33Z jorrakay: can't wait to use that on the design team 2016-05-25T21:08:34Z groovy2shoes: I love it 2016-05-25T21:08:50Z SamF quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T21:09:07Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2016-05-25T21:09:14Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, I still only see "daily", "combined", and "no" 2016-05-25T21:09:16Z groovy2shoes: :( 2016-05-25T21:09:34Z jcowan: huh, checking further 2016-05-25T21:10:09Z Nikesh: Is there a ranking of most popular Scheme implementations? It seems that Racket and Chez are most popular? I don't really like the Racket GUI :/ but I guess that I don't /have/ to use it 2016-05-25T21:10:34Z jorrakay: what kind of metric do you want 'ranking' on 2016-05-25T21:10:50Z groovy2shoes: chicken, gambit, and guile are also all pretty popular 2016-05-25T21:10:59Z jcowan: You want "Notify me for every message" 2016-05-25T21:11:40Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-25T21:11:41Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, I only have that for threads I start or otherwise post to, not for every message :( 2016-05-25T21:11:46Z groovy2shoes: grr... stupid google 2016-05-25T21:11:58Z jcowan: Try it from https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/scheme-reports-wg2 2016-05-25T21:12:04Z jcowan: (or whatever group it is) 2016-05-25T21:12:33Z jorrakay: hmm... for comp.lang.scheme it doesn't show me that option either 2016-05-25T21:13:10Z jorrakay: but for other groups it does... that's strange 2016-05-25T21:13:27Z jcowan: Dotted groups are fronts for Usenet newsgroups, and can't be shipped to you by email 2016-05-25T21:13:37Z jcowan: You can read them in a feed reader, however, which is what I do 2016-05-25T21:14:47Z jcowan: I use feedly.com, but any will do 2016-05-25T21:15:01Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-25T21:15:18Z groovy2shoes: I can't find anything for my phone that will do usenet 2016-05-25T21:15:25Z groovy2shoes: well, nothing that isn't a piece of shit 2016-05-25T21:15:53Z jcowan: POSness is relative, but feedly has apps 2016-05-25T21:15:53Z groovy2shoes: I don't see why some service couldn't forward you posts to a newsgroup... 2016-05-25T21:16:01Z jcowan: https://groups.google.com/forum/feed/comp.lang.scheme/msgs/atom_v1_0.xml is the feed for c.l.s 2016-05-25T21:16:04Z groovy2shoes: hmm I'll check out feedly 2016-05-25T21:16:10Z groovy2shoes: I thought that just did RSS for some reason 2016-05-25T21:16:31Z jcowan: It does, but GG exposes newsgroups as RSS (actually Atom) feeds 2016-05-25T21:16:37Z groovy2shoes: ah, cool 2016-05-25T21:16:48Z groovy2shoes: thanks 2016-05-25T21:16:49Z jcowan: and spam-filters them first, which is important 2016-05-25T21:17:01Z jcowan: So I read from the feedreader and go to the group to post 2016-05-25T21:18:28Z jcowan: and get all other non-Usenet groups sent to me as email 2016-05-25T21:18:41Z jcowan: thus remaining in email paradise 2016-05-25T21:19:49Z jorrakay: my buddy wrote a google reader replacement after it got taken down, it works pretty good actually 2016-05-25T21:19:55Z jorrakay: http://reader.temp.io/login/?next=/ 2016-05-25T21:22:40Z groovy2shoes: I really wish Google Groups had some sort of RPC API 2016-05-25T21:22:52Z jcowan: error 500 2016-05-25T21:23:00Z groovy2shoes: so that we could have mobile apps and such 2016-05-25T21:23:05Z jcowan: hey ho, nobody home, meat nor drink nor money have I none 2016-05-25T21:23:23Z jorrakay: hm working for me, oh well 2016-05-25T21:23:52Z jcowan: Page comes up, but when I enter my email address, boom 2016-05-25T21:23:59Z jcowan: makes it look like a harvester 2016-05-25T21:24:46Z jorrakay: at the very least i can assure you that your email won't be sold. there are maybe three people using this 2016-05-25T21:25:32Z jorrakay: i don't know how it works other than it is written in python and django, and your email just gets used to send you links to login 2016-05-25T21:25:45Z jorrakay: maybe you have a funny email address 2016-05-25T21:25:51Z jorrakay: or something 2016-05-25T21:26:48Z jorrakay: oh yeah and the source is public: 2016-05-25T21:26:52Z jorrakay: https://github.com/dcwatson/reader 2016-05-25T21:29:00Z jcowan: I'm not too worried, harvesting my email address is trivial 2016-05-25T21:29:18Z jcowan: there are thousands of Google hits for it 2016-05-25T21:30:17Z sondr3 joined #scheme 2016-05-25T21:33:19Z jcowan: even one GOogle Books hit 2016-05-25T21:33:31Z jcowan: (well, a bunch, all but the first are obviously bogus)) 2016-05-25T21:34:02Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-25T21:36:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2016-05-25T21:37:17Z jorrakay: oh shit did you invent figlet 2016-05-25T21:37:36Z jorrakay: what a claim to fame 2016-05-25T21:37:54Z jcowan: Invent, no. Unicode-ize, yes. 2016-05-25T21:38:10Z jorrakay: Nice 2016-05-25T21:38:21Z jcowan: thus making it an early Unicode-aware font rendering engine 2016-05-25T21:51:35Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'm (still) working on this presently: https://www.refheap.com/119613 2016-05-25T22:29:23Z n_blownapart: more specifically I'd like to know how #cube-rooter-er handles its parameters guess , prev-guess and x, and how you would write it diagrammatically 2016-05-25T22:31:19Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:31:21Z sethalves quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:35:07Z mejja: arrow and box diagrams are only used for graphing datastructures 2016-05-25T22:35:40Z mfranzwa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:37:14Z turbofail joined #scheme 2016-05-25T22:37:58Z n_blownapart: mejja: thanks so any learning tools that people use to keep track of what is happening? I am familiar with trace but it is very tedious. 2016-05-25T22:40:19Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-25T22:40:23Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T22:43:22Z mejja: I guess that would be printf (write/display in scheme) 2016-05-25T22:46:04Z n_blownapart: oh yeah I just read about display. where would you put that in my pasted code precisely, to see what's going on with cube-root-er mejja ? https://www.refheap.com/119613 2016-05-25T22:47:55Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-25T22:49:17Z mejja: define (improve guess x) (begin (display guess) (display " " ) (display x) (newline)) ... 2016-05-25T22:51:03Z n_blownapart: " " being prev-guess you mean mejja ? 2016-05-25T22:51:48Z mejja: Some whitespace between guess and x... 2016-05-25T22:52:16Z n_blownapart: oh I see thanks mejja I'll try it. 2016-05-25T22:54:40Z pepton4 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:55:10Z n_blownapart: mejja thanks kindly the output is far easier to read than with trace 2016-05-25T22:58:38Z Shadox joined #scheme 2016-05-25T22:58:54Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-25T23:02:02Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:03:04Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:03:07Z mejja: rudybot: 10 Vintage Cream Color IBM-type Computer Punch Cards 2016-05-25T23:03:08Z rudybot: mejja: vintage? 2016-05-25T23:03:43Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-25T23:04:06Z mejja: rudybot: Yes, Sir! Only $1.75 if you buy now! http://www.ebay.com/bhp/ibm-punch-card 2016-05-25T23:04:09Z rudybot: mejja: loke`: they're often called "military clocks", you can find lots on ebay, wildly varying prices: http://www.ebay.com/bhp/military-clock 2016-05-25T23:05:08Z bjz joined #scheme 2016-05-25T23:05:27Z mejja: rudybot: I need a Glock, not a silly clock... 2016-05-25T23:05:29Z rudybot: mejja: Taiwan Glock Panama ICE Security Council Downing Street PLO NATO 2016-05-25T23:07:15Z bjz quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-25T23:07:25Z Blkt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T23:08:04Z bjz joined #scheme 2016-05-25T23:08:42Z Blkt joined #scheme 2016-05-25T23:11:16Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-25T23:12:49Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:13:02Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:15:43Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-25T23:17:09Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-25T23:22:57Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:31:09Z Nikesh left #scheme 2016-05-25T23:33:25Z n_blownapart quit 2016-05-25T23:36:03Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T23:36:25Z noethics quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T23:42:56Z noethics joined #scheme 2016-05-25T23:44:32Z noethics quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T23:44:54Z noethics joined #scheme 2016-05-25T23:56:55Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-05-25T23:57:00Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:59:48Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-26T00:02:00Z mfranzwa joined #scheme 2016-05-26T00:04:22Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:04:23Z walter|r_ joined #scheme 2016-05-26T00:06:27Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T00:20:03Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T00:22:57Z jperkin13 joined #scheme 2016-05-26T00:23:24Z jperkin13 left #scheme 2016-05-26T00:23:35Z jao joined #scheme 2016-05-26T00:29:28Z Shadox quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-26T00:29:40Z Shadox joined #scheme 2016-05-26T00:37:01Z Crashlog quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-26T00:37:39Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:38:19Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2016-05-26T00:39:29Z n_blownapart: anyone use drRacket on mac osX ? when I close any window, the process persists on the OS. wondering if there's a fix. 2016-05-26T00:42:17Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-05-26T00:43:39Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:44:18Z shdeng joined #scheme 2016-05-26T00:44:30Z zalatovo joined #scheme 2016-05-26T00:47:01Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:48:38Z galex-713 joined #scheme 2016-05-26T00:50:12Z n_blownapart quit 2016-05-26T00:54:21Z galex-713: If I well understood, there’s no way in scheme to deal with optional arguments other than the rest argument? if so, is there a standard way to indicate that it is wrong to/an error if the function is used with more args than intended? 2016-05-26T00:55:31Z pierpa: what kind of scheme? 2016-05-26T00:55:45Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, you can use case-lambda for optional arguments 2016-05-26T00:56:02Z galex-713: pierpa: standard r5rs scheme, possibly srfi 2016-05-26T00:56:04Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, and the `error` procedure to raise an error if you detect that too many arguments have been supplied 2016-05-26T00:56:11Z groovy2shoes: ah, r5rs 2016-05-26T00:56:31Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, it's actually pretty easy to define case-lambda as a macro 2016-05-26T00:56:31Z pierpa: in r5rs there's only the rest argument 2016-05-26T00:56:53Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, if you don't have the case-lambda srfi readily available, you can use mine (I'll pastebin it in a sec) 2016-05-26T00:57:15Z galex-713: no nb 2016-05-26T00:57:16Z galex-713: *np 2016-05-26T00:57:33Z galex-713: Is error r5rs or srfi? 2016-05-26T00:57:40Z pierpa: many implementation have case-lambda built-in. Check if you have it 2016-05-26T00:57:50Z galex-713: If case-lambda is srfi I’ll see that 2016-05-26T00:58:06Z groovy2shoes: http://hastebin.com/tovadifefi.scm 2016-05-26T00:58:10Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, ^ 2016-05-26T00:58:37Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-05-26T00:59:22Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, I don't think `error` actually made it in to R5RS, but it's freakishly common... the only impl I've found that didn't have it is Racket in *strict* r5rs mode 2016-05-26T00:59:45Z galex-713: srfi maybe? 2016-05-26T00:59:57Z groovy2shoes: maybe, I dunno 2016-05-26T01:00:20Z galex-713: srfi-23 it seems 2016-05-26T01:00:30Z groovy2shoes: it's also possible to define 2016-05-26T01:00:41Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2016-05-26T01:01:01Z galex-713: Yeah but I prefer avoid loads of generic code repeted in each project and learn to do the standard way :) 2016-05-26T01:01:13Z groovy2shoes: when I was using Racket's strict r5rs mode, I implemented it as a procedure that displayed the error message, and then did something wrong on purpose to trigger an error state 2016-05-26T01:01:19Z groovy2shoes: not ideal, but it worked ;) 2016-05-26T01:01:28Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T01:01:53Z galex-713: Now I’m switching to scheme I want to benefit from its powerfulness and not end like with elisp where I did my own optimized simple.el with a lot of abstract generic function (like reimplementing bash brace-expansion, etc.) 2016-05-26T01:02:11Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, may I ask, why r5rs? 2016-05-26T01:02:24Z galex-713: because that’s what guile implement, together with some srfi 2016-05-26T01:02:39Z galex-713: And one day r7rs afaik 2016-05-26T01:02:51Z groovy2shoes: r7rs has case-lambda and error, and a few other extremely useful things like a module system and user-defined types (records) 2016-05-26T01:03:48Z daviid: galex-713: guile fully support rs6rs 2016-05-26T01:03:49Z groovy2shoes: Guile does have partial support for r7rs 2016-05-26T01:04:08Z galex-713: oh great :) can’t wait it’s implemented in guile (but for the moment they have a lot other problems, like implementing native compilation with all the optimizations, properly elisp, easy concurrence, multithreaded emacs, etc.) 2016-05-26T01:04:34Z groovy2shoes: don't know what the timeline is for full support, but the guile manual is pretty damn good, so it probably has a rundown of the r7rs that's covered 2016-05-26T01:04:41Z galex-713: fully? oh, so either I wrongly read the doc either it’s not up to date :/ 2016-05-26T01:05:17Z galex-713: Oh yeah right already some r7rs 2016-05-26T01:05:39Z daviid: and yes, partial support 2016-05-26T01:05:41Z groovy2shoes: any particular reason you're tied to guile? 2016-05-26T01:06:09Z groovy2shoes: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ImplementationSupport 2016-05-26T01:06:33Z galex-713: yeah guile doc says it’s partial r6rs 2016-05-26T01:06:58Z groovy2shoes: I think Gambit has partial support in recent versions? or maybe in the dev version? not 100% sure, but I know Marc Feeley was working on it at some point 2016-05-26T01:08:56Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: a lot: looooot of libraries/modules/bindings with everything, easy bindings with other languages (C, C++, php, javascript, elisp, lua, one day also python, ruby, etc.), free software, future native compilation, cool community, GNU/FSF software, GNU-integrated, etc. I probably forget a lot others 2016-05-26T01:09:40Z groovy2shoes: I hadn't heard about native compilation 2016-05-26T01:09:46Z galex-713: It’s planned :) 2016-05-26T01:09:56Z galex-713: Not in priority though becous of the U in GUILE 2016-05-26T01:10:03Z groovy2shoes: :) 2016-05-26T01:10:16Z galex-713: But planned (quite useful for quicker bootstrap and for a usable guile-emacs) 2016-05-26T01:11:22Z groovy2shoes: elisp isn't natively compiled now and emacs is already useable, so I don't see why a natively compiling guile would be necessary for a usable guilemacs... 2016-05-26T01:11:27Z galex-713: For instance I like to benefit from the SDL bindings to rewrite with geiser-mode a C program that will be bytecompiled to something somewhat optimized, one day maybe even native-compiled (maybe, let’s go crazy why not, with gcc-level optimizations), and that could be, I don’t know, integrated with GNUnet :) 2016-05-26T01:11:33Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-26T01:11:49Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: would be cool to being able to use scheme to extend emacs :) 2016-05-26T01:12:15Z galex-713: And python/javascript/lua would definitely bring new users 2016-05-26T01:12:18Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-05-26T01:12:43Z galex-713: also that would make bindings easier with others programs (i.e. GNUnet) 2016-05-26T01:12:43Z groovy2shoes: I agree 100%, I just don't understand why it would need to be native targeting for that... 2016-05-26T01:13:43Z groovy2shoes: especially given that elisp hasn't ever been natively-compiled and it's been used since 1983 :p 2016-05-26T01:14:46Z groovy2shoes: anyway, guile's explosion from "scheme interpreter" to "interpreter and compiler for all the languages" is a bit of a turn-off for me :p 2016-05-26T01:14:58Z samw3 left #scheme 2016-05-26T01:14:59Z groovy2shoes: and I'm not thrilled that chibi has that as a goal, either 2016-05-26T01:15:51Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: because some functions still need to be native compiled (there are many emacs-specific functions that need to be coded in C) I guess 2016-05-26T01:16:22Z galex-713: Well I don’t know *but* I see the performance gain in that and that would be useful to doing such big things such as emacs 2016-05-26T01:16:32Z groovy2shoes: my impression was that guilemacs would still be a mixture of C and lisp, no? 2016-05-26T01:17:36Z groovy2shoes: guile's bytecode interpreter is already probably an order of magnitude better than emacs's interpreter, maybe even more, so I would imagine there would be considerable speedup even without native code compilation 2016-05-26T01:17:45Z galex-713: Err, dunno what will be done with C functions (guile is a lot more optimized than emacs elisp, so that would make sense to make them with either elisp or scheme, but we could still use guile ability to integrate C things, so we could also recode that with libguile and SCM types) 2016-05-26T01:17:59Z groovy2shoes: not to mention, most of emacs's performance problem with elisp now is the lack of threading, anyway 2016-05-26T01:18:06Z galex-713: yes 2016-05-26T01:18:08Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-26T01:18:25Z galex-713: If both could get more contributions, I think at the end the concurrent-emacs and guile-emacs would converge anyway 2016-05-26T01:18:36Z galex-713: (because currently the emacs architecture isn’t safe for thread) 2016-05-26T01:18:47Z groovy2shoes: yeah, I know 2016-05-26T01:18:57Z groovy2shoes: I'd love to contribute but I'm honestly just so busy already :( 2016-05-26T01:20:40Z galex-713: Personally these times I’ve a lot of free time but still not the skills… 2016-05-26T01:22:05Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: yet it seems most guile devs continue to work in optimizing guile (don’t ever know if people is actively maintaining php/lua implementations or if there are people to dev python/ruby ones) and there’s a *really* *few* people working on guile-emacs and concurrent-emacs (one per each afaik) 2016-05-26T01:22:19Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-05-26T01:22:48Z galex-713: *work to 2016-05-26T01:25:38Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: also for concurrency I don’t know if it’s guile or scheme’s fault if it’s not “natural” to get threaded things in it (I mean like things got automatically concurrent without having to worry about concurrency, like it happens for makefiles or like it can be done on clojure) 2016-05-26T01:29:46Z mejja: groovy2shoes: Maybe you can help with a 64 x86 backend for Larceny instead of complaining all the time 2016-05-26T01:29:54Z mejja hides 2016-05-26T01:32:55Z mfranzwa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T01:34:04Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T01:34:17Z groovy2shoes: mejja, again, I'd love too, I really mean it, but I've been extremely busy lately and I already feel like I'm in over my head with what's on my plate :( 2016-05-26T01:34:40Z groovy2shoes: and, I wasn't complaining, I was just telling 2016-05-26T01:35:00Z groovy2shoes: in fact, I was defending Larceny's claims to performance 2016-05-26T01:37:05Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, neither Clojure programs nor Makefiles are automatically concurrent; there's an SRFI for thread-based concurrency in Scheme, and it's also possible to implement concurrency primitives with call/cc (I've seen implementations of both threads and coroutines with call/cc) 2016-05-26T01:41:03Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: make -jN for any wellwritten makefile (that is when you avoid too much side effects and stay mostly functional) works and the writer of the Makefile doesn’t have to know about threads of concurrency, just to write well the makefile 2016-05-26T01:41:09Z mejja: groovy2shoes: Yes, It's a pity guile started as a fork of jaffers horrible scm hack under the clueless guidance of tom "fexpr" lord. Had they forked s48 or some other saner system the world would already be a better place for sure.. 2016-05-26T01:41:24Z galex-713: and clojures implements data structure that helps to make thread-safe things as far as I know, right? 2016-05-26T01:44:26Z mejja: clojure is a joke. please don't mention it here. I'm eating a sandwich. 2016-05-26T01:44:54Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, yes, you can use -j with some versions of make (GNU and BSD, afaict), *as long as the Makefile was written with parallelism in mind*, which is far from automatic parallelism 2016-05-26T01:45:41Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, and just because Clojure's data structures are immutable does not make it auto-concurretizing, either, it just makes it harder for someone to write race conditions if they *do* happen to write concurrent code 2016-05-26T01:45:52Z groovy2shoes: mejja, lol, high five! 2016-05-26T01:46:27Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: you don’t have to keep parallelism in mind, just to avoid sideeffects 2016-05-26T01:47:07Z galex-713: and for clojure, yes, but I mean both features lacks in guile/scheme 2016-05-26T01:48:49Z daviid: galex-713: for info, guile has 2 implementations of functional hash table and functional vectors, 1 being done by 1 of the guile maintainer. then it has a prety good thread system in core, and 2 lib for concurrent prograing, 1 that I use daily is called guile-as-ync [the other is called 8sync] 2016-05-26T01:49:54Z daviid: guile-a-sync* 2016-05-26T01:50:29Z daviid: 1 of the functional data structs is in pure r6rs if I am not mistaken, so you could even run it on other scheme 2016-05-26T01:51:51Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, you obviously don't know how make works, or how concurrency in general works, so I recommend you do some reading before continuing to discuss it 2016-05-26T01:51:57Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-05-26T01:52:45Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: ok, do you have some links? 2016-05-26T01:53:37Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, sure, just a moment 2016-05-26T01:53:57Z galex-713: cool :) 2016-05-26T01:55:27Z galex-713: if you have things with exercices or not-too-loooooong things would be more efficient for me since my adhd is going worse these times ^^" 2016-05-26T01:56:05Z galex-713: (I mean adhd makes more difficult to keep concentrated with long streams of input without output/test/empirical experiencing/etc.) 2016-05-26T01:58:01Z galex-713: (i.e. enough dopamine disable adhd) 2016-05-26T02:00:12Z groovy2shoes: I know, but that's what dexamphetamine salts are for :p 2016-05-26T02:01:46Z galex-713: methyphenidate don’t work anymore for me even doubling the dose above the legal maximum and with concentrated&accelerated-liberation medecines :/ unfortunately for us, neurophamaceutics are going to stay proprietary software for a long time 2016-05-26T02:01:48Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T02:01:54Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, for make: http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/~checkout~/src/usr.bin/make/PSD.doc/tutorial.ms?rev=1.13&content-type=text/plain 2016-05-26T02:01:55Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/NSm45s9Dax 2016-05-26T02:02:24Z galex-713: (and as long as they procure dependency and more-or-less successful results for a little more than 30% of population, they’ll give money) 2016-05-26T02:02:30Z groovy2shoes: save that guy and run `troff -ms -Tpdf tutorial.ms >tutorial.pdf` to get something more readable 2016-05-26T02:03:52Z groovy2shoes: methylphenidate sucks, gotta get the amphetamines (which are also "open" in the sense that they're no longer patented and anyone could make them with the proper ingredients and equipment and legal sanction) 2016-05-26T02:04:20Z galex-713: (absence of patents don’t make a free software ;)) 2016-05-26T02:04:28Z galex-713: (and open isn’t free) 2016-05-26T02:05:21Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: your command don’t make me a pdf but “tutorial.pdf: ditroff output, ASCII text” according file 2016-05-26T02:05:24Z groovy2shoes: it's not software at all, and you can't copyright pharmaceuticals 2016-05-26T02:05:42Z groovy2shoes: and I have no idea what your parenthetical aside means 2016-05-26T02:08:01Z galex-713: well, the “source” i.e. the semantically understandable process that led to the usable result, is not the molecle, it’s the hardware, software, and knowledge material used to research, test, find, and synthesis it. 2016-05-26T02:08:10Z galex-713: and it isn’t free 2016-05-26T02:10:14Z groovy2shoes: no, that's not the source 2016-05-26T02:10:30Z groovy2shoes: the source is the list of ingredients and the process needed to synthesize the molecule 2016-05-26T02:10:53Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-05-26T02:10:56Z groovy2shoes: which is readily available, and any chemist could actually produce just given the molecule 2016-05-26T02:11:32Z groovy2shoes: and no, you have to pay for the ingredients and equipment, sorry 2016-05-26T02:11:35Z galex-713: so you mean you consider the obfuscated js code google sends to your browser as “free software”? 2016-05-26T02:11:54Z groovy2shoes: no, but again, pharmaceuticals are *not* software 2016-05-26T02:12:02Z galex-713: you can make analogy 2016-05-26T02:12:46Z groovy2shoes: to a chemist, the "preferred form" for performing synthesis of a drug is simply the list of ingredients and the recipe 2016-05-26T02:13:16Z galex-713: That’s analogic to compilation process, what’s about research&development process? 2016-05-26T02:13:47Z groovy2shoes: and while even with all my experience and training I could not look at minimized js and tell you what it does with any granularity, any trained, professional chemist can look at the chemical formula for dexamphetamine and tell you with reasonable precision and 100% accuracy how to synthesize it 2016-05-26T02:14:55Z groovy2shoes: the GPL only mandates that the preferred form be made available under the terms of the license, it does not mandate the inclusion of any research precipitating the development of the software 2016-05-26T02:15:12Z galex-713: I think we’re doing analogies at different levels 2016-05-26T02:15:37Z galex-713: In my analogy synthesis is compilation, and recipe/ingredients are makefile 2016-05-26T02:15:38Z groovy2shoes: no, you're just twisting the definition of free software into something that suits your argument 2016-05-26T02:16:28Z galex-713: in my analogy, synthesis wouldn’t be a readable js code but the interpreter/compiler for js code (which is actually still able of intepreting obfuscated code) 2016-05-26T02:16:47Z groovy2shoes: your analogy doesn't work, because PHARMACEUTICALS ARE NOT SOFTWARE 2016-05-26T02:17:10Z galex-713: But maybe I’m twisting things because I don’t know enough neuropharmaceutical enginering process :/ 2016-05-26T02:17:53Z galex-713: I mean, how do pharmaceutics invent molecles? do they just randomly mix ingredient and test that on mices? or is there something more complex? 2016-05-26T02:17:55Z groovy2shoes: well, I can assure you that it's fundamentally different from the software development process, and that the end results are also fundamentally different in nature 2016-05-26T02:18:29Z groovy2shoes: e.g., you can copy software willy-nilly, but you can't exactly just copy a pill (unfortunately) 2016-05-26T02:18:49Z galex-713: right, analogy can’t work for all sides of it 2016-05-26T02:18:53Z groovy2shoes: each "copy" of a pill requires a supply of physical ingredients 2016-05-26T02:19:05Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2016-05-26T02:19:19Z galex-713: you know, it’s like the analogy bet 2016-05-26T02:19:23Z groovy2shoes: whereas copies of software require a few KB of RAM, a few CPU cycles, and some storage to stick the copy in 2016-05-26T02:19:32Z galex-713: *ween free-software 3d-printed-machines and free-software 2016-05-26T02:19:47Z groovy2shoes: it doesn't really "cost" anything to copy software 2016-05-26T02:20:03Z groovy2shoes: that's how the end result is different 2016-05-26T02:20:39Z groovy2shoes: anyway, enough OT, let's get back to Scheme, shall we :) 2016-05-26T02:20:51Z galex-713: yes, material costs are to be taken into account, but are they the main wall to do pharmaceutics? I mean could anyone just go into pharmaceutic development with just material tools and no knowledge except the publicly available one? I thought no, but maybe I’m wrong 2016-05-26T02:21:31Z galex-713: Err, well, what were we talking about before… ah right! your tutorial.ms don’t give me a pdf with your command :/ 2016-05-26T02:21:33Z groovy2shoes: okay, my last statement on that topic, just to answer your question: yes 2016-05-26T02:22:22Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2016-05-26T02:22:22Z galex-713: okay, thanks, so we agree I was wrong and my analogy was then completely useless on its level x) 2016-05-26T02:22:24Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T02:22:49Z galex-713: “troff -ms -Tpdf tutorial.ms | file -” -> “/dev/stdin: ditroff output, ASCII text” 2016-05-26T02:23:14Z galex-713: Oh wait, works with groff instead of troff 2016-05-26T02:23:22Z ArneBab_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T02:23:40Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T02:23:53Z groovy2shoes: huh, interesting 2016-05-26T02:23:56Z n_blownapart: hello noob here. I've used trace and recently discovered display. If you're inside a function, what advantage is in using display over trace? 2016-05-26T02:24:00Z andrewvic1 joined #scheme 2016-05-26T02:24:11Z groovy2shoes: on my system troff *is* groff... are you running OpenBSD or something? 2016-05-26T02:24:24Z galex-713: no, Debian 2016-05-26T02:24:49Z groovy2shoes: n_blownapart, display is a standard procedure that just writes a string representation of its argument to the current output port 2016-05-26T02:24:50Z galex-713: yeah troff is groff here too, but seems to behave differently if it’s called with “troff” command 2016-05-26T02:25:05Z groovy2shoes: tbh, I'm not even sure what trace is; I've never used it 2016-05-26T02:25:30Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, strange, it worked for me on Slackware :S you got a readable pdf now, though? 2016-05-26T02:25:33Z n_blownapart: thanks groovy2shoes isn't that essentially what trace does? 2016-05-26T02:25:38Z galex-713: n_blownapart: what implementation? are you talking about guile REPL’s ,trace? 2016-05-26T02:25:51Z n_blownapart: galex-713, drRacket 2016-05-26T02:26:09Z andrewvic1 is now known as andrewvic 2016-05-26T02:26:11Z galex-713: Ok dunno then 2016-05-26T02:26:22Z galex-713: you mean a (trace args...) function? 2016-05-26T02:26:53Z groovy2shoes: n_blownapart, maybe they'll know better in #racket ? The racket docs are also really good, so that would be a good place to check 2016-05-26T02:27:11Z groovy2shoes: but if you want to write portable scheme code, stick with display and/or write 2016-05-26T02:27:46Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, that document is an excellent introduction to make in general, and section 2.5 covers parallelism in particular 2016-05-26T02:27:46Z n_blownapart: galex-713, groovy2shoes one moment please 2016-05-26T02:29:47Z galex-713: n_blownapart: we both don’t know about trace :/ it may be specific to your implementation 2016-05-26T02:29:52Z daviid` joined #scheme 2016-05-26T02:30:49Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, one other thing that document doesn't mention: make -j executes each command in a separate subshell, whereas make executes each *recipe* in a subshell 2016-05-26T02:30:57Z n_blownapart: ok thanks galex-713 groovy2shoes they seem similar. I'm just using them to self-teach scheme so I can follow the output more closely 2016-05-26T02:31:08Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, iirc, openbsd's manpage for `make` covers that 2016-05-26T02:31:50Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T02:33:59Z turtleman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-26T02:34:28Z Opodeldoc joined #scheme 2016-05-26T02:34:55Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-26T02:34:55Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-26T02:34:55Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-26T02:40:02Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T02:41:33Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-26T02:43:33Z walter|r_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T02:44:28Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-26T02:48:45Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-26T02:50:07Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-26T05:11:34Z shardz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T05:13:56Z engblom joined #scheme 2016-05-26T05:17:19Z engblom: I am looking for a complement to Clojure and to broadening my little knowledge of lisp dialects. Clojure is a nice language, but requires JVM, which is very slow on rpi2 (armhf) if you are using NetBSD as openjdk does not have JIT. I would want to know what you think about scheme as a complement for me. 2016-05-26T05:18:00Z nilg` joined #scheme 2016-05-26T05:18:09Z engblom: As I would do GPIO programming, any implemention of scheme would need to have an easy way to access C libraries 2016-05-26T05:18:52Z shardz joined #scheme 2016-05-26T05:19:57Z groovy2shoes: oh hi engblom :) 2016-05-26T05:20:04Z engblom: If scheme is the tool for me, I would prefer to pick on of the ready compiled packages found here: ftp://ftp.pkgsrc.org/pub/pkgsrc/packages/NetBSD/earmv7hf/7.0/All 2016-05-26T05:20:39Z groovy2shoes: after you get familiar with Scheme, I'll bet you'll start to think of Clojure as a compliment to Scheme rather than the other way around ;) 2016-05-26T05:20:40Z engblom: groovy2shoes: Oh, hello! I decided to look at scheme as it been going several days and I still do not get any CL to run on NetBSD on rpi 2016-05-26T05:21:05Z groovy2shoes: really? ecl didn't even work? 2016-05-26T05:21:22Z engblom: groovy2shoes: What I really love with Clojure is the ready out of the box datastructures 2016-05-26T05:22:19Z engblom: groovy2shoes: Is any scheme implementation having maps, list, vectors and sets ready to use directly? 2016-05-26T05:23:02Z groovy2shoes: many scheme implementations supply some extra data structures... Racket comes to mind as one that has all of those mentioned 2016-05-26T05:23:14Z groovy2shoes: don't see a binary for it here, though 2016-05-26T05:23:29Z engblom: Sadly, there is no racket for netbsd (at least not when running on arm). 2016-05-26T05:23:29Z groovy2shoes: the latest release even has JIT support on the Pi now :) 2016-05-26T05:23:52Z groovy2shoes: you can just build it from source 2016-05-26T05:24:47Z groovy2shoes: grab the *nix source tarball... I'd try the "bootstrap" version first, because if that works it's MUCH faster than building from complete scratch 2016-05-26T05:25:55Z engblom: groovy2shoes: As NetBSD got Racket in the pkgsrc tree, but still no package for rpi, it is almost certain it does not build. This has been the case with all lispy dialects I have tried so far. 2016-05-26T05:26:29Z groovy2shoes: engblom, it depends which version of racket is in pkgsrc... the arm support in the JIT is pretty recent 2016-05-26T05:26:43Z groovy2shoes: like, last few months recent 2016-05-26T05:26:50Z Flippers joined #scheme 2016-05-26T05:27:12Z engblom: I have tried to build ecl, clisp, sbcl (which all are in pkgsrc). They all got packages for amd64, but not for arm and the reason seem to be that they fail to build. 2016-05-26T05:27:24Z groovy2shoes: seeing how the outdated tinyscheme in pkgsrc was superceded several years ago, I wouldn't count on pkgsrc having the latest version :p 2016-05-26T05:27:27Z engblom: Racket 6.4 is in the pkgsrc tree 2016-05-26T05:27:45Z groovy2shoes: I'm not surprised about sbcl, but I *am* surprised clisp and ecl didn't work 2016-05-26T05:27:45Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-26T05:29:03Z groovy2shoes: it works on arm, and it works on netbsd, I don't see why it wouldn't work on both... 2016-05-26T05:29:07Z engblom: I tried to compile ecl both from a manually downloaded tar.gz file and from pkgsrc. Both failed. 2016-05-26T05:30:19Z engblom: For clisp, libffi (a dependency), could not be compiled so the whole thing failed 2016-05-26T05:30:57Z groovy2shoes: I see a pkg for chicken here, that might do the trick, too... it also has its own little package manager for libraries ("eggs") and I'm sure there's a whole grab-bag of data structures in there if nothing else 2016-05-26T05:32:23Z groovy2shoes: for clisp, you can probably do with ./configure --without-ffcall 2016-05-26T05:32:32Z groovy2shoes: disables FFI 2016-05-26T05:33:25Z groovy2shoes: --without-libffcall-prefix # might need this, too 2016-05-26T05:33:48Z engblom: But I would really need a way to call C libraries. Unless I have understood something wrong, ffi is needed? 2016-05-26T05:34:15Z engblom: Here is the list of schemes available for netbsd: http://lpaste.net/164571 2016-05-26T05:34:34Z groovy2shoes: I don't really know how clisp works, but based on the options I see for the configure script, it looks like you may be able to add C functions/libraries "the Lua way" 2016-05-26T05:35:25Z groovy2shoes: I'm quite fond of gambit and gauche, but chicken seems like it might be more your speed 2016-05-26T05:36:14Z engblom: I do not need to squeeze out the last performance bit, as long as it is usable. JVM without JIT is not usable. 2016-05-26T05:36:30Z groovy2shoes: yeah 2016-05-26T05:36:51Z groovy2shoes: well, the JIT in Racket is relatively new, and plenty of people thought it was useable before 2016-05-26T05:37:08Z engblom: I care more about rich set of data structures over last bit of performance, so with this in mind, which of those implementations would be best? I mean out of those with ready packages 2016-05-26T05:37:09Z groovy2shoes: and I use it without the JIT on an old OpenBSD box that doesn't like the jit 2016-05-26T05:37:40Z groovy2shoes: I told you already 2016-05-26T05:37:51Z groovy2shoes: chickinz 2016-05-26T05:38:05Z engblom: Ok, then will check out chicken :) 2016-05-26T05:38:11Z groovy2shoes: :) 2016-05-26T05:38:30Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-26T05:39:13Z groovy2shoes: as an aside, what I like about Gauche is that it's really nice as a "system scripting language" 2016-05-26T05:39:38Z groovy2shoes: ever since I discovered it, I've used it to write little scripts that I used to use Python for and many people use Perl for 2016-05-26T05:41:43Z groovy2shoes: little scripts like, "convert such-and-such config file to so-and-so format" or "make the indentation in this C source consistent because these dopes mixed tabs and spaces" 2016-05-26T05:41:50Z engblom: Which one of Gauche and Chicken do you thing got a better set of data structures? 2016-05-26T05:42:00Z groovy2shoes: I'd say probably chicken 2016-05-26T05:42:15Z groovy2shoes: but I don't remember for sure, to be honest 2016-05-26T05:42:22Z groovy2shoes: in any case, chicken will have much better integration with C 2016-05-26T05:42:28Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-26T05:42:32Z groovy2shoes: chicken has the BEST FFI of anything ever 2016-05-26T05:42:33Z engblom: When it comes to recursion, do both optimize tail calls? 2016-05-26T05:43:02Z groovy2shoes: it's like... (include-c-header "foo.h") ; done! you now have access to the foo library via FFI 2016-05-26T05:43:06Z Flippers: isn't tail call optimization *required* by the scheme standard 2016-05-26T05:43:10Z groovy2shoes: yes 2016-05-26T05:43:27Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T05:43:41Z engblom: groovy2shoes: It sounds like chicken really is what I need then :) 2016-05-26T05:43:46Z groovy2shoes: tail call elimination, btw :) it's not an optimization as the transformation doesn't preserve the semantics of the language 2016-05-26T05:44:14Z pobivan joined #scheme 2016-05-26T05:44:40Z groovy2shoes: well, I suppose in the restricted case of tail *recursion* elimination, that ccould be considered an optimization sometimes 2016-05-26T05:45:20Z engblom: Well, as long as I do not run out of stack because of recursion, it is good enough 2016-05-26T05:45:21Z groovy2shoes: but only if it were implemented *as* an optimization, rather than as a feature of the language itself 2016-05-26T05:46:23Z groovy2shoes: scheme relies very heavily on recursion as it does not provide any other way to do iteration (though I suppose `do` could be implemented in such a way that it does not demand recursion per se...) 2016-05-26T05:46:24Z Flippers: is chicken's R7RS support in the main language yet or still as an extension 2016-05-26T05:46:33Z groovy2shoes: so without TCE, Scheme is not very useful ;) 2016-05-26T05:46:56Z groovy2shoes: Flippers, I think it's still an extension, and still partial, but I haven't checked in a while tbh 2016-05-26T05:47:13Z groovy2shoes: Flippers, #chicken might be a better place to ask if you don't get an answer here 2016-05-26T05:48:07Z engblom: One last, for me, critical question: I like very much vim. Do you recommend any specific vim plugin for sending stuff over to chicken repl? 2016-05-26T05:49:49Z groovy2shoes: engblom, there's Conque-Shell and slimux (which relies on tmux) 2016-05-26T05:50:00Z groovy2shoes: Conque-Shell doesn't rely on tmux, to be clear 2016-05-26T05:50:20Z groovy2shoes: at least, it didn't used to... nowadays I just do (load "foo") in the REPL 2016-05-26T05:50:34Z engblom: slimux seem to be what I want. I like to have the repl in a separate tmux screen 2016-05-26T05:52:15Z groovy2shoes: you might want to stick something like this in your .vimrc: au FileType scheme setlocal ts=8 sts=2 sw=2 et ai ci fo+=roq com=n:;,1ns:\#\|,m:\|,ex:\|\# 2016-05-26T05:55:52Z Flippers grumbles about language-specific package managers 2016-05-26T05:56:24Z groovy2shoes: I'd much rather have a language-specific package manager for language-specific packages 2016-05-26T05:56:35Z andrewvic quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T05:56:50Z engblom: I agree with groovy2shoes 2016-05-26T05:57:06Z groovy2shoes: so that I don't have to rely on my distribution to keep the packages up-to-date, and as a slackware user, that would likely mean that my distro wouldn't even provide those packages at all, so I'd be on my own :I 2016-05-26T05:57:07Z Flippers: if it installs stuff to a different location from the main system package manager, sure 2016-05-26T05:57:25Z groovy2shoes: that is a good point, though, hmm 2016-05-26T05:57:25Z engblom: lein is really a great tool for Clojure. No distrospecific manager could do better. 2016-05-26T06:00:14Z Flippers: when I'm feeling more awake than I am now I might try to make a FreeBSD port to package what chicken-install builds 2016-05-26T06:01:00Z groovy2shoes: engblom, lein is the only nice thing about clojure :p 2016-05-26T06:01:07Z groovy2shoes: it is fantastic 2016-05-26T06:01:41Z Flippers recalls seeing lots of chicken-egg-* packages in Arch 2016-05-26T06:02:35Z groovy2shoes: bah! arch! 2016-05-26T06:02:38Z groovy2shoes spits on the ground 2016-05-26T06:02:51Z engblom: :) 2016-05-26T06:04:04Z defanor quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-26T06:04:26Z groovy2shoes: if anyone ever writes a bibliograph about me (as if!), it would have to be called "The Man Who Held Many Unpopular Opinions" 2016-05-26T06:04:30Z Flippers has switched from Arch to FreeBSD and is looking towards OpenBSD 2016-05-26T06:04:33Z engblom: Hmm, now I see what Flippers talked about. I tried to install swank-chicken and it wanted to pollute my /usr/pkg 2016-05-26T06:04:50Z groovy2shoes: Flippers, I've got an OpenBSD box *and* a FreeBSD box 2016-05-26T06:04:54Z engblom: It failed as I was not running as root 2016-05-26T06:05:00Z groovy2shoes: they're both nice, but OpenBSD takes the cake for man pages 2016-05-26T06:05:03Z Flippers: engblom, yeah same 2016-05-26T06:05:06Z Flippers: need root to install 2016-05-26T06:05:17Z Flippers: it seems to put up a fight if you give it a prefix in your home dir 2016-05-26T06:05:27Z engblom: That is just stupid, to need to be root for adding some features to a language 2016-05-26T06:05:38Z groovy2shoes: indeed 2016-05-26T06:06:42Z engblom: Flippers: When you get to install openbsd, you will be amazed of how simple the maintaince is. FreeBSD will feel ancient in comparation. 2016-05-26T06:07:21Z engblom: Sadly, the kernel itself is lagging behind (no VM support, no advanced file system, etc). 2016-05-26T06:07:40Z Flippers: yeah, I really like what I've read about their design principles and quality standards and documentation 2016-05-26T06:07:45Z groovy2shoes: Flippers, I ran arch for a long time, but after Judd Vinet stepped down as lead dev, it started going down hill :( 2016-05-26T06:08:08Z Flippers: yeah 2016-05-26T06:08:27Z engblom: This with polluting the filesystem is a real deal breaker for Chicken. I will have to try another scheme 2016-05-26T06:08:30Z groovy2shoes: I'm still rather fond of pacman, and the AST, but once they adopted systemd I abandoned it, and once they got rid of their installer, I *hated* it 2016-05-26T06:09:12Z Flippers: raco, racket's build/packaging utility, seems nicer 2016-05-26T06:09:17Z Flippers: installs to home directory by default 2016-05-26T06:11:29Z engblom: But no ready package for NetBSD. I have for several days tried to compile different implementations of CL for NetBSD on arm, and all failed so far so this time I want something supported by NetBSD on arm. 2016-05-26T06:11:49Z Flippers: for racket? 2016-05-26T06:11:50Z Flippers: or CL 2016-05-26T06:12:17Z engblom: Racket is supported on other platforms than arm for netbsd 2016-05-26T06:12:22Z engblom: So no racket package 2016-05-26T06:12:30Z Flippers: ah 2016-05-26T06:12:38Z Flippers: build fails? 2016-05-26T06:12:55Z engblom: Probably as they do not have a package for this port of netbsd 2016-05-26T06:13:05Z engblom: All CL failed to build for me 2016-05-26T06:13:20Z Flippers: pkgsrc has racket 6.4, one version out of date 2016-05-26T06:13:32Z engblom: Racket is quite big, so after a lot of CL failures, I do not want to try to manually compile Racket 2016-05-26T06:13:35Z Flippers: yargh, the freebsd ports collection has racket 6.2 2016-05-26T06:13:45Z Flippers: indeed 2016-05-26T06:13:51Z Flippers: took a while to build 2016-05-26T06:14:04Z engblom: I am very sure that if it builds, there would be a ready binary package as it is already in pkgsrc 2016-05-26T06:14:14Z Flippers: although in the freebsd ports there is a lang/racket-minimal that omits the shiny GUI stuffs 2016-05-26T06:14:26Z groovy2shoes: engblom, there's a "Minimal Racket" distribution you could try 2016-05-26T06:14:37Z groovy2shoes: to minimize time wasted trying if it doesn't work 2016-05-26T06:14:41Z Flippers: is probably that ^ 2016-05-26T06:15:04Z groovy2shoes: but I really think it will work, because like I said, I run it on NetBSD and I run it on the Pi (just not at the same time), and I can't imagine it wouldn't work 2016-05-26T06:15:23Z groovy2shoes: worst case scenario, you need to disable the JIT, I think 2016-05-26T06:15:49Z Flippers: how much would that slow it down 2016-05-26T06:15:53Z engblom: groovy2shoes: SBCL runs on arm and on NetBSD, but still does not compile on netbsd arm 2016-05-26T06:16:03Z Flippers recalls a benchmarking script someone did, where racket ranked very highly 2016-05-26T06:16:08Z engblom: ecl runs on arm and on netbsd, but still does not compile 2016-05-26T06:16:28Z groovy2shoes: Flippers, quite a bit, but it's still quite usable for my needs... wouldn't want to use it for anything super intensive or number-crunchy, but for interactive apps it's totally fine 2016-05-26T06:16:49Z groovy2shoes: engblom, most common lisp impls have a very finnicky bootstrap process 2016-05-26T06:17:23Z groovy2shoes: where the compilers have been self-hosting since like the 80s and so you need a compiled image from the previous version to build the current version, and so on... really a pain in the ass 2016-05-26T06:17:32Z groovy2shoes: but I can't think of a single scheme impl that bootstraps that way 2016-05-26T06:17:49Z Flippers: guile claims to support r7rs and also ranked highly on the benchmarking 2016-05-26T06:18:00Z groovy2shoes: again, I'm shocked that ecl doesn't build... you might want to let jackdaniel know if you haven't already 2016-05-26T06:18:23Z groovy2shoes: guile has partial support for r7rs, as far as I'm aware 2016-05-26T06:18:32Z groovy2shoes: unless they finished it up very recently 2016-05-26T06:18:34Z engblom: I told him and also akkad (whos is a netbsd developer). 2016-05-26T06:19:18Z Flippers should probably be satisfied with r5rs, given that it's still by far the most implemented 2016-05-26T06:21:11Z groovy2shoes: engblom, good :) 2016-05-26T06:21:34Z groovy2shoes: Flippers, no! r7rs or bust!! :p 2016-05-26T06:21:35Z Flippers begins compilation of racket upgrade, lets it go overnight 2016-05-26T06:22:01Z Flippers: yeah, I tend to disregard implementations that don't do r7rs :P 2016-05-26T06:22:40Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2016-05-26T06:23:41Z groovy2shoes: seriously, it's been out for over 3 years now... everybody needs to get their shit together and implement the 3 things r7rs has that r5rs doesn't :p 2016-05-26T06:24:06Z Flippers: define-record-type, library definitions, features listing? 2016-05-26T06:24:11Z manumanumanu: Flippers: you mean http://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html 2016-05-26T06:24:19Z Flippers: yep 2016-05-26T06:24:57Z groovy2shoes: Flippers, heheh, yeah... I was exaggerating, but it's really not many features at all! and most of them can be copied+pasted from the appendix! 2016-05-26T06:25:38Z Flippers: can the r7rs changes be implemented in pure r5rs to be loaded from any r5rs implementation? 2016-05-26T06:25:50Z manumanumanu: I sometimes try to develop using other schemes, but I always end up back with chicken. Until we have a package manager and an ecosystem for other schemes, chicken will be my choice 2016-05-26T06:25:54Z groovy2shoes: not without a preprocessor of some sort 2016-05-26T06:26:10Z groovy2shoes: (afaict) 2016-05-26T06:26:52Z Flippers: I'll begin to use chicken once I can figure out how to get its package manager to install eggs to a custom prefix 2016-05-26T06:28:04Z manumanumanu: Flippers: i guess you tried using --prefix 2016-05-26T06:28:11Z Flippers: yeah 2016-05-26T06:28:18Z manumanumanu: and that didn't work as expected 2016-05-26T06:28:22Z Flippers: correct 2016-05-26T06:28:35Z Flippers: didn't work * 2016-05-26T06:28:36Z Flippers: build failed 2016-05-26T06:28:44Z manumanumanu: did you ask over in #chicken? They are probably the friendliest bunch on irc 2016-05-26T06:29:05Z groovy2shoes: disagree! I'm the friendliest bunch on IRC! :p 2016-05-26T06:29:20Z Flippers 'll probably do that tomorrow 2016-05-26T06:29:24Z Flippers: almost midnight here *yawn* 2016-05-26T06:29:26Z engblom: Before setting on Clojure, I actually made the first port for Racket to OpenBSD... So some years ago I actually compiled racket frequently 2016-05-26T06:29:44Z manumanumanu: Flippers: but do it german time :) 2016-05-26T06:30:19Z groovy2shoes: engblom, 4.8 only has racket-minimal in ports... and it doesn't work :( I had to build it from the official sources myself :I 2016-05-26T06:30:54Z engblom: groovy2shoes: I have not dealt with racket for several years. There is another maintainer nowadays. 2016-05-26T06:31:06Z engblom: Earlier it had full racket 2016-05-26T06:31:25Z SamF joined #scheme 2016-05-26T06:33:27Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T06:34:51Z groovy2shoes: der CHICKEN Schemevortälen ist ein Vortälen für Scheme wat haßt die bußtedlökingest Schwartzkode 2016-05-26T06:36:22Z SamF quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T06:37:04Z groovy2shoes: Het löke as ein Twistyström upblaun ein Parenthesisfaktoren 2016-05-26T06:37:35Z manumanumanu: that looks like borked german 2016-05-26T06:37:38Z manumanumanu: what is it? 2016-05-26T06:38:09Z turbofail left #scheme 2016-05-26T06:38:17Z groovy2shoes: it's made-up german-inspired gobbledygook by someone who is familiar with german but not nearly enough to actually speak it :p 2016-05-26T06:38:56Z manumanumanu: "wat" und "het" made me think dutch :) 2016-05-26T06:39:12Z groovy2shoes: yeah, I know Afrikaans more than German, so... 2016-05-26T06:39:44Z groovy2shoes: it's like a mixture of English, Afrikaans, Dutch, and only a tiny bit of German but all made to resemble German at first glance 2016-05-26T06:40:21Z groovy2shoes: hopefully that's not offensive... I'm only messing around 2016-05-26T06:40:30Z groovy2shoes: I'd like to *actually* learn German one day 2016-05-26T06:40:59Z groovy2shoes: but tbh I might learn more Dutch first, because my father's side of the family is Dutch 2016-05-26T06:41:29Z manumanumanu: Hey man, I have to bear "bork bork bork" all day long. I am not easily offended :) 2016-05-26T06:41:48Z groovy2shoes: hahaha 2016-05-26T06:41:58Z groovy2shoes: what specifically are you referring to by "bork bork bork"? 2016-05-26T06:42:20Z manumanumanu: swedish 2016-05-26T06:42:49Z groovy2shoes: heheh 2016-05-26T06:43:02Z groovy2shoes: my wife and I visited Sweden on our honeymoon back in September :) 2016-05-26T06:43:06Z groovy2shoes: spent two weeks 2016-05-26T06:43:49Z defanor joined #scheme 2016-05-26T06:43:51Z manumanumanu: where in sweden were you? 2016-05-26T06:44:39Z groovy2shoes: started in Nynasham, took the ferry to Visby for a few days, then made our way to Jonköping, then Göteborg, then Oslo for two days, then back across the peninsula to Stockholm for the last few days 2016-05-26T06:45:14Z groovy2shoes: Nynäsham? 2016-05-26T06:45:20Z groovy2shoes: idr :S 2016-05-26T06:45:40Z engblom: groovy2shoes: Then you probably visit Pippi Långstrump :) 2016-05-26T06:45:46Z engblom: visited* 2016-05-26T06:45:50Z manumanumanu: you forgot an "n" at the end :) 2016-05-26T06:45:54Z groovy2shoes: learned a tiny bit of Swedish beforehand, and then didn't even need to use it because everybody there speaks better English than your average American -_- 2016-05-26T06:46:10Z manumanumanu: haha 2016-05-26T06:46:31Z groovy2shoes: got an awesome statue of Thor in Visby 2016-05-26T06:46:45Z groovy2shoes: looks nice on my altar 2016-05-26T06:47:17Z groovy2shoes: also got a nice picture of myself ready to be sacrificed on a big, flat stone at Uppsala :D 2016-05-26T06:48:43Z engblom begun the compilation of racket. 2016-05-26T06:48:53Z engblom: Lets hope it goes through without problem 2016-05-26T06:49:05Z engblom: I manually compile it from source, not from pkgsrc 2016-05-26T06:51:36Z groovy2shoes: ah, here we are! https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12027782_10154227790533082_4667971612421359364_n.jpg?oh=7d251940f81d20ab3a2146938f607e77&oe=57C7D717 2016-05-26T06:51:36Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/1ryYd6UZxN 2016-05-26T06:51:52Z groovy2shoes: my wife dropped the camera and the lens got a little... fucky 2016-05-26T06:52:11Z groovy2shoes: I managed to fix it but we didn't notice it until later, and by then the sacrificial altar was miles away :( 2016-05-26T06:53:03Z manumanumanu: groovy2shoes: so, where are you from. I notice you have the ring on your left hand, much like we do in sweden. 2016-05-26T06:53:04Z engblom: Oh, guru beard 2016-05-26T06:53:20Z groovy2shoes: I'm from the US 2016-05-26T06:53:40Z groovy2shoes: born in Florida, but I consider myself "from" North Carolina nowadays, because that's been home for over 10 years at this point 2016-05-26T06:54:19Z manumanumanu: hmmm. I thought you yanks wore it on the right hand... 2016-05-26T06:54:33Z groovy2shoes: nope 2016-05-26T06:54:44Z groovy2shoes: here's one from the Viking Ship Museum in Oslo: https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12003333_10154227781833082_7884152154598677341_n.jpg?oh=0741dd004a1d40c82eac4e039ecf7e3f&oe=579A33CF 2016-05-26T06:54:45Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/l8A4uU0ZD3 2016-05-26T06:54:51Z groovy2shoes: that museum was fucking cool 2016-05-26T06:55:50Z engblom: In my municipality we got a rebuilt viking center :) 2016-05-26T06:56:03Z Shadox quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-26T06:56:14Z groovy2shoes: here I am, captain of the conquest of Paris: https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12049671_10154227780398082_1100041685750264406_n.jpg?oh=c79b182bfa6265c3ce70eb4cca233b08&oe=57D40A49 2016-05-26T06:56:15Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/1X1Z0tXCnA 2016-05-26T06:56:26Z groovy2shoes: engblom, where's that? 2016-05-26T06:56:29Z engblom: http://www.rosala-viking-centre.com/english.htm 2016-05-26T06:56:55Z groovy2shoes: oooo cool 2016-05-26T06:57:08Z groovy2shoes: something for my next Scandinavian excursion! :D 2016-05-26T06:57:29Z engblom: groovy2shoes: Almost Scandinavian then :P 2016-05-26T06:57:45Z groovy2shoes: you'll notice that my amazing ship can also sail on land 2016-05-26T06:57:48Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-26T06:57:51Z engblom: Technically, Finland belongs to the Nordic countries, but not to Scandinavia 2016-05-26T06:58:09Z groovy2shoes: if Denmark can belong to Scandinavia, then so can Finland 2016-05-26T06:58:15Z groovy2shoes: :p 2016-05-26T06:58:44Z groovy2shoes: I met a Finnish chick at the Winternights sumbel last year... she was over here visiting a friend for a few weeks 2016-05-26T06:58:48Z groovy2shoes: she was pretty cool 2016-05-26T06:59:57Z engblom: Hmm, it seems like Racket needs gmake. I had forgot that 2016-05-26T07:00:18Z engblom: The first build attempt failed, probably because of bsd make 2016-05-26T07:00:19Z groovy2shoes: ugh gmake 2016-05-26T07:00:27Z groovy2shoes: BSD make is so much better 2016-05-26T07:00:33Z manumanumanu: If you listen to music from the nordic countries and you find something that is funny you know it is either finnish or norwegian. If it is meant to be a joke, it's norwegian. If it is dead serious it is finnish. 2016-05-26T07:00:49Z groovy2shoes: lol 2016-05-26T07:00:56Z groovy2shoes: I've been on a Ghost kick lately 2016-05-26T07:01:06Z eli: groovy2shoes: Racket's jit is "relatively new"?? 2016-05-26T07:01:11Z groovy2shoes: saw them in Atlanta a few months ago... they put on a... hell... of a show 2016-05-26T07:01:14Z manumanumanu: I went to a concert where an ensemble played Zappa music on baroque instruments 2016-05-26T07:01:14Z eli: Are you 80 years old? 2016-05-26T07:01:55Z groovy2shoes: eli, sure, it was just added around the time s/PLT Scheme/Racket/, wasn't it? or am I mistaken? 2016-05-26T07:01:58Z manumanumanu: eli: on some platforms it is. it wasn't until 6.something that it worked on ARM 2016-05-26T07:03:12Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-26T07:03:39Z groovy2shoes: Racket itself is over twice as old as its JIT, no? 2016-05-26T07:04:27Z eli: groovy2shoes: It's frem about 2005-6. So if you consider it new you're probably still on a flip phone. 2016-05-26T07:04:37Z groovy2shoes: lol 2016-05-26T07:04:39Z eli: manumanumanu: Yes, ARM is much more recent. 2016-05-26T07:04:46Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-26T07:05:21Z groovy2shoes: eli, that's what the "relative" was for... my point was that people got good use out of it for a long time before it had a JIT compiler, so it can't possibly be *that* slow without it 2016-05-26T07:06:14Z eli: Here: the racket was announced June 2010, the JIT at Jan 2006 2016-05-26T07:06:48Z groovy2shoes: eli, yeah I remember the name change... didn't know exactly when the JIT was introduced, so thanks :) 2016-05-26T07:07:06Z eli: That's actually almost an assumption that performance only goes up, which is not always right. 2016-05-26T07:07:31Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-05-26T07:07:35Z eli: For example, with the JIT a whole bunch of things made more sense to be defined in Racket instead of in C 2016-05-26T07:07:42Z groovy2shoes: ah, true 2016-05-26T07:07:49Z eli: (Eg, this way you get the JIT *and* things like inlining) 2016-05-26T07:08:08Z groovy2shoes: but I know for certain that it's still not unbearably slow, because I still use it without JIT on an old Pentium II that can't handle the JIT for some reason 2016-05-26T07:08:20Z eli: So as a result non-jit runs are getting slower than they could without a jit 2016-05-26T07:08:30Z groovy2shoes: makes sense 2016-05-26T07:08:44Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T07:08:52Z eli: And BTW, on small systems one of the major killers is FS access. 2016-05-26T07:09:06Z eli: It reads a whole pile of files on startup. 2016-05-26T07:09:28Z groovy2shoes: with the JIT enabled on my old system, it core dumps almost immediately 2016-05-26T07:09:52Z groovy2shoes: and for whatever reason, gdb won't load the OpenBSD core dumps, and I don't actually know how to inspect them -_- 2016-05-26T07:10:17Z manumanumanu: it was slow on arm until 6.0... I remember seeing 3x speedups just by switching from 5.3.4 to 6.0 2016-05-26T07:11:03Z eli: On a Pentium 2, I'm not surprised; the chances of the JIT *not* using any newer cpu feature are very small 2016-05-26T07:11:20Z eli: Yeah, I vaguely remember some arm improvements. 2016-05-26T07:11:36Z groovy2shoes: eli, while you're here, I actually wanted to ask you if there's something like `syntax-case` but more "primitive", as in there's no pattern matching, so you have to destructure the stx form yourself, but otherwise everything else is the same (hygienie by default, etc.) 2016-05-26T07:11:56Z manumanumanu: concerning racket: i am not getting any answers in #racket: is there any way I can see whether code is being run in the repl? I want to be able to debug my code interactively, but still run it "whole program" once in a while 2016-05-26T07:12:45Z eli: manumanumanu: I'm not following -- what's the question? 2016-05-26T07:13:13Z eli: groovy2shoes: Sure, `syntax-case` is mainly a convenience for pattern matching, but it's certainly possible to do stuff without it. 2016-05-26T07:13:31Z eli: The thing is that without it, things get very tedious very fast. 2016-05-26T07:14:06Z eli: You need to remember that Racket, like all Schemes, uses identifiers: syntax + some representation of scope 2016-05-26T07:14:22Z eli: s/syntax/symbols/ 2016-05-26T07:14:24Z manumanumanu: eli: when I run the program from command line, i want to run some code. when I run it in a repl, I don't want to run that code. like (if (not-in-repl?) (do-stuff) (do-nothing)) 2016-05-26T07:14:57Z groovy2shoes: thought so... I'm just trying to figure out the most basic thing I can include in the core of my implementation, and then define everything else as a library on top of that core 2016-05-26T07:15:01Z eli: groovy2shoes: But Racket goes a bit further, and *every* piece of syntax has lexical scope -- and managing these can be very tedious. 2016-05-26T07:15:15Z groovy2shoes: ah 2016-05-26T07:15:20Z eli: But if you insist, I have a good starting place for you, just a second. 2016-05-26T07:15:57Z groovy2shoes: I don't intend for anyone to actually use it directly, I just want to provide the bare minimum I need in the core to bootstrap syntax-case as a library form 2016-05-26T07:16:38Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2016-05-26T07:18:08Z groovy2shoes: the R4RS "low-level macros" actually looked close to what I had in mind, but I keep seeing it dissed... there's a JAR paper that even says the authors of that mechanism had given up on it, but it doesn't provide a citation and I can't find any actual details on why it's a poor approach :/ 2016-05-26T07:18:36Z groovy2shoes: I asked JAR himself on twitter, but he doesn't remember 2016-05-26T07:18:54Z groovy2shoes: (can't say I blame him as it's been a quarter of a century now...) 2016-05-26T07:19:35Z leot joined #scheme 2016-05-26T07:19:43Z eli: groovy2shoes: It's dissed usually because it's referring to a CL-like `defmacro` thing -- ie, no hygiene 2016-05-26T07:20:00Z eli: Anyway, I found it: http://blog.racket-lang.org/2011/04/writing-syntax-case-macros.html 2016-05-26T07:20:21Z groovy2shoes: ah, I had assumed it was capable of defining hygienic macros since it was supposed to be sufficient to define syntax-rules 2016-05-26T07:20:28Z eli: That shows how to do the stuff that you usually do with `syntax-case` without it. 2016-05-26T07:20:54Z groovy2shoes: oh awesome! thanks a lot, eli :) 2016-05-26T07:21:00Z eli: No. You can't really define a hygienic macro system in an easy way if you don't have one. 2016-05-26T07:21:02Z groovy2shoes: this looks perfect 2016-05-26T07:21:21Z eli: There was some paper somewhere from Pascal Costanza who implemented hygienic macros in CL. 2016-05-26T07:21:35Z groovy2shoes: but the R4RS low-level macros had identifier=? and syntax and such, no? 2016-05-26T07:21:44Z eli: And IIRC, that had a huge cost, of basically redefining `lambda` etc -- IOW, defines the language from scratch 2016-05-26T07:21:48Z groovy2shoes: yeah, I was actually re-reading that one yesterday 2016-05-26T07:21:53Z groovy2shoes: "Hygiene for the Unhygienic" 2016-05-26T07:22:19Z eli: In any case, if you want to implement your own system, then the Racket syntax system might not be a good place to start 2016-05-26T07:22:33Z eli: It has a *ton* of bells that you usually won't need until later. 2016-05-26T07:22:40Z groovy2shoes: oh, I'm not starting there, per se, I'm just exploring my options 2016-05-26T07:22:45Z eli: For example, the whole thing about taints, etc. 2016-05-26T07:22:49Z groovy2shoes: yeah 2016-05-26T07:22:52Z eli: (Which are used for security.) 2016-05-26T07:23:09Z eli: A place that is probably a better starting point is sweet.js 2016-05-26T07:23:20Z groovy2shoes: I just want the most minimal thing I can provide in the core that I can use to implement syntax-case in the library rather than in the core 2016-05-26T07:23:31Z eli: Which implements macros for JS, using the same hygiene algorithm that Racket uses. 2016-05-26T07:23:40Z eli: So it's much smaller. 2016-05-26T07:23:54Z eli: Also, they just had a major revision in recently 2016-05-26T07:24:00Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-05-26T07:24:04Z eli: (As in sometime in the last 2-3 months) 2016-05-26T07:24:17Z eli: And they don't yet have the `syntax-case` equivalent done. 2016-05-26T07:24:42Z groovy2shoes: oh, I understand how to implement hygiene, I'm just not sure if there's an existing "system" that does what I want, then I can provide that API instead of one of my own invention 2016-05-26T07:25:05Z vydd joined #scheme 2016-05-26T07:25:07Z eli: manumanumanu: Oh, you want a kind of a special `main` thing that gets executed when running as a script, but not when loaded as a library? 2016-05-26T07:26:11Z groovy2shoes: I mean, there's sort of like a macro "algebra", and each approach to hygiene has its own sort of "algebra", and they're not necessarily equivalent, so I just want to make sure that whatever I come up with is going to be sufficient for implementing a full-blown syntax-case... does that make sense? 2016-05-26T07:27:38Z noethics quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-26T07:27:45Z groovy2shoes: but it didn't occur to me that I could get away with just datum->syntax and syntax... do you think I'd also need something like identifier=? to implement syntax-case that way? 2016-05-26T07:28:04Z eli: groovy2shoes: Yes, but unfortunately for you, I don't think that there's any implementation strategy that is *known* to be true and correct... 2016-05-26T07:28:31Z andrewvic quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T07:28:50Z eli: The identifier equalities are, IIRC, all just utilities that compare names considering their lexical scope 2016-05-26T07:28:50Z groovy2shoes: eli, I'm not sure I understand what you mean 2016-05-26T07:28:53Z manumanumanu: eli: yup, something lke that. 2016-05-26T07:29:55Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T07:30:01Z eli: groovy2shoes: What I mean is that Racket (and the rest of the Scheme world) has been using the coloring algorithm for decades, yet that ran into problems that eventually made Matthew switch to the current scope set implementation. 2016-05-26T07:30:18Z eli: So there's no telling if there's something big around the corner that would require something completely different. 2016-05-26T07:30:27Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2016-05-26T07:30:35Z eli: Macros are generally not as well researched 2016-05-26T07:30:40Z eli: manumanumanu: Try this: 2016-05-26T07:30:43Z eli: #lang racket 2016-05-26T07:30:45Z groovy2shoes: ah... does the scope set paper go into the problems that lead up to it? (I have the paper but haven't gotten around to reading it yet) 2016-05-26T07:30:50Z eli: (define (foo n) (* n 8)) 2016-05-26T07:30:55Z eli: (module+ main (foo 10)) 2016-05-26T07:31:09Z manumanumanu: brb 2016-05-26T07:31:29Z eli: manumanumanu: The `(module+ main ...stuff...)` will be executed when running as the main code (ie "racket your-file.rkt") 2016-05-26T07:31:39Z eli: And you can add a few of them, not just one. 2016-05-26T07:32:03Z eli: groovy2shoes: I don't remember... I didn't read it too closely... 2016-05-26T07:32:59Z groovy2shoes: it's just that this is the first I've heard talk of problems with the coloring algorithm (at least, problems serious enough that it needed to be replaced) 2016-05-26T07:33:18Z groovy2shoes: are you aware of any good reading on the subject? 2016-05-26T07:33:27Z eli: Oh, they were obscure enough 2016-05-26T07:33:41Z eli: IIRC, there were three big things: 2016-05-26T07:34:05Z eli: 1. Something with submodules (which made them unusable in Typed Racket, until the change) 2016-05-26T07:34:15Z eli: 2. In some cases there were performance issues 2016-05-26T07:34:17Z manumanumanu: hmmm. apparently racket mode in emacs runs it anyway. 2016-05-26T07:34:35Z eli: 3. And the implementation was very messy (and in C) 2016-05-26T07:34:59Z eli: manumanumanu: That depends on how it runs it. I don't know about it -- but I can tell you how to use the command line 2016-05-26T07:35:33Z groovy2shoes: eli, ah, thanks a lot for your help :) 2016-05-26T07:35:46Z eli: manumanumanu: You want to install xrepl, and then do something like: ,en some-file.rkt 2016-05-26T07:35:52Z manumanumanu: eli: yeah. running it by just "pasting" the definitions area gives me a "module+ allowed only in a module body". 2016-05-26T07:35:58Z eli: manumanumanu: That will get your repl in the context of the file. 2016-05-26T07:36:19Z groovy2shoes: also, I gotta figure out some way to convince people that they *really do* want hygiene 2016-05-26T07:36:29Z eli: Yes, `module+` doesn't make any sense outside of a `module` 2016-05-26T07:36:38Z groovy2shoes: and eradicate all defmacro/define-macro 2016-05-26T07:36:44Z manumanumanu: bah, ill work around it :) 2016-05-26T07:36:52Z eli: groovy2shoes: *That* will take a whole bunch of time 2016-05-26T07:37:19Z manumanumanu: groovy2shoes: introduce a bug in someone else's source on github that only triggers once in a while. 2016-05-26T07:37:35Z eli: manumanumanu: what I *do* know is that they guy who wrote racket-mode is very aware of such things, so it should be possible to do it with it somehow -- just don't paste code, since then you're not really using racket-mode. 2016-05-26T07:37:56Z eli: groovy2shoes: IME, people are very quickly jumping on the CL-like macros that are "simple" 2016-05-26T07:38:09Z eli: Hygiene is considered as something that complicates stuff unnecessarily 2016-05-26T07:38:38Z groovy2shoes: but syntax-rules is even simpler than defmacro, imo 2016-05-26T07:38:41Z eli: The real need for hygiene starts when you want to allow people to define anything, including whole different languages. 2016-05-26T07:38:48Z groovy2shoes: the pattern-matching is sooooo convenient 2016-05-26T07:39:01Z eli: Then you get into problems that are unsolvable using plain defmacro 2016-05-26T07:39:14Z groovy2shoes: hmm... 2016-05-26T07:39:18Z eli: (CL gets over that by simply forbidding any kind of shadowing of built-in bindings) 2016-05-26T07:39:41Z eli: And re the `syntax-rules` -- you should really avoid it. 2016-05-26T07:39:57Z eli: And that's for two main reasons 2016-05-26T07:40:09Z groovy2shoes: imo, Clojure had no excuse to go 1.0 without hygienic macros, and afaik it still doesn't have them 2016-05-26T07:40:11Z eli: The first is that it's not a good macro system when that's *all* you have. 2016-05-26T07:40:29Z eli: Eg, you can't throw good syntax errors, you can't check that something is a numeral etc 2016-05-26T07:40:43Z eli: (You also can't run code, but that's kind of its point) 2016-05-26T07:40:49Z manumanumanu: eli: solved it. find-system-path 'run-file will in emacs result to [pathypath]run.rkt 2016-05-26T07:40:49Z groovy2shoes: yeah 2016-05-26T07:40:56Z eli: But more importantly is that you should learn from the Scheme experience 2016-05-26T07:41:38Z eli: For whatever reason, *MANY* people conflate "hygiene" with `syntax-rules` and then the complain about hygiene being a bad idea because of limitations specific to the syntax-rules 2016-05-26T07:41:58Z eli: That makes zero sense, but for some reason it's a story that comes up frequently. 2016-05-26T07:42:46Z eli: manumanumanu: You mean that you write code that uses find-system-path? If so, that's a bad idea. 2016-05-26T07:42:50Z groovy2shoes: well, my plan was to implement something extrememly low-level but suitable for implementing syntax-case as a library, and then providing syntax-case in the standard library (and possibly something even "simpler", along the lines of implicit renaming macros) 2016-05-26T07:43:12Z eli: See sweet.js then... 2016-05-26T07:43:26Z groovy2shoes: to be honest, I've never tried to implement a macro that I couldn't do with syntax-rules 2016-05-26T07:43:28Z eli: Re renaming macros -- those a different things. 2016-05-26T07:43:44Z manumanumanu: eli: no one will ever see this code... I will just claim to not use it 2016-05-26T07:43:49Z eli: So you should definitely try that, to see how it is to write macros that actually run code. 2016-05-26T07:43:49Z groovy2shoes: I mean I would have an interface like ir-macro-transformer, not actually do renaming 2016-05-26T07:44:10Z groovy2shoes: it'd be implemented with the same primitives as syntax-case under the hood 2016-05-26T07:44:16Z eli: Re syntax-case vs renaming: they both tackle a common problem -- syntax is Sexprs + scope, not just sexprs. 2016-05-26T07:44:31Z eli: The syntax-case approach is to enrich the data structure with the additional data 2016-05-26T07:44:33Z manumanumanu: and i will just be a tiny tiny thing used to make my emacs repl experience easier 2016-05-26T07:44:46Z eli: The renaming macros approach is to make macro *calls* get extra information. 2016-05-26T07:44:55Z eli: IMO, the first makes much more sense than the second. 2016-05-26T07:45:02Z groovy2shoes: eli, why is that? 2016-05-26T07:45:37Z eli: manumanumanu: Well, learning how to get what you want with racket-mode is going to make it even better. Probably much better. 2016-05-26T07:45:54Z eli: groovy2shoes: Because it deals much better with adding more information. 2016-05-26T07:46:02Z groovy2shoes: ah, okay 2016-05-26T07:46:10Z eli: That's something that in practice happens very often 2016-05-26T07:46:24Z engblom: It looks promising for racket hand compiled on netbsd on arm. I am now at 'gmake install' 2016-05-26T07:46:25Z eli: For example, you'll want source location information. 2016-05-26T07:46:40Z eli: Or syntax properties 2016-05-26T07:46:57Z eli: When you have "sexpr + stuff" it's easy to add more stuff 2016-05-26T07:47:01Z groovy2shoes: the reason I want something with the same API is because whenever I want to convince someone that hygienic macros aren't necessarily complicated, I just show them ir-macro-transformer 2016-05-26T07:47:31Z eli: When you start with the renaming macros, you need to complicate macro invocation with yet more arguments that are harder for backward compatibility, and more awkward to use 2016-05-26T07:48:29Z manumanumanu: eli: oh! greg is the guy who wrote racket-mode! cool! 2016-05-26T07:48:33Z manumanumanu: he's a great guy 2016-05-26T07:48:54Z groovy2shoes: eh, the transformer only really needs the use environment and definition environment on top of the form to do renaming, but I agree the extra information is useful (and I was leaning that way already) 2016-05-26T07:49:06Z eli: Yes, and he knows the kind of tricks that xrepl is using, so I'm pretty sure that he did them too. 2016-05-26T07:50:00Z eli: groovy2shoes: It also makes more sense for a from-scratch implementation, rather than the Scheme thing where `defmacro` was known and people were looking for an easy way to make it be "almost as simple" 2016-05-26T07:50:04Z groovy2shoes: did I show you guys my tattoo? 2016-05-26T07:50:06Z groovy2shoes: https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10653564_10154013582737604_8888644933923796455_n.jpg?oh=a18b9c1cdbcb5ca7e9b5effd2be1a1dd&oe=57DAC14C 2016-05-26T07:50:06Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/Zm9j5ncLMz 2016-05-26T07:50:07Z groovy2shoes: :> 2016-05-26T07:50:41Z eli: IIRC, at some point I posted something that shows how to do renaming macros using syntax-case, and I think that nobody ever did the opposite 2016-05-26T07:50:57Z groovy2shoes: I don't think it's possible 2016-05-26T07:51:07Z manumanumanu: groovy2shoes: nerd :D :D 2016-05-26T07:51:15Z groovy2shoes: I think a few people have tried to implement syntax-case with er macros and synclos, but have consistently failed 2016-05-26T07:51:20Z groovy2shoes: manumanumanu, :D 2016-05-26T07:51:29Z eli: I remember people who concluded that it is impossible, but I didn't care to verify it... 2016-05-26T07:52:04Z civodul joined #scheme 2016-05-26T07:52:36Z groovy2shoes: eli, synclos are fundamentally limited because if you want a particular identifier to be free, all references to that identifier have to be free in the closed-over expression 2016-05-26T07:56:13Z groovy2shoes: so you can't do something like, e.g., (syntax-case stx () ((with-contrived body ...) (with-syntax ((free-foo (datum->syntax #'with-contrived 'foo))) #`(let ((foo ,free-foo)) body ...)))) 2016-05-26T07:56:38Z groovy2shoes: you can't have a free `foo` and a bound `foo` in the same expression with synclos 2016-05-26T07:57:45Z alezost joined #scheme 2016-05-26T07:57:48Z groovy2shoes: believe me, I tried really hard to make it work... spent weeks trying various things... even tried to modify the implementation of the synclos without breaking the semantics... couldn't do it 2016-05-26T07:59:31Z groovy2shoes: so that covers synclos, but I honestly can't remember what the limitation of er macros was that precluded syntax-case 2016-05-26T07:59:38Z groovy2shoes: I just remember there was *something* that di 2016-05-26T07:59:41Z groovy2shoes: did* 2016-05-26T08:03:56Z eli: Perhaps what I'm remembering was about syntactic closures... 2016-05-26T08:06:55Z groovy2shoes: I've definitely read something about er macros, too... I'll see if I can find it again 2016-05-26T08:08:50Z eli: If you catch Riastradh here sometime he'll probably know 2016-05-26T08:10:54Z phax joined #scheme 2016-05-26T08:12:22Z groovy2shoes: honestly, if I could implement syntax-case in terms of er-macro-transformer, I'd be thrilled, because that would mean I could have syntax-case with Chibi ;) 2016-05-26T08:12:48Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-26T08:12:54Z groovy2shoes: not sure why, but Mr. Shinn has an aversion to syntax-case 2016-05-26T08:13:44Z groovy2shoes: I'm finding lots of implementations of er-macro-transformer on top of syntax-case... the rationale behind that is beyond me 2016-05-26T08:13:48Z phax quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T08:13:55Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-05-26T08:17:10Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2016-05-26T08:24:01Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-26T08:24:35Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-05-26T08:26:08Z Muir joined #scheme 2016-05-26T08:41:07Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-26T08:41:19Z eli: groovy2shoes: Yes he is; to the point that at some point I wrote this in reply to one of his flames: tmp.barzilay.org/foof.txt 2016-05-26T08:52:20Z groovy2shoes: eli, I don't remember how, but I stumbled on that the other day and that's what led me to ask you all these questions today :D 2016-05-26T08:52:21Z civodul had never heard of 'syntax-e' so far 2016-05-26T08:53:04Z groovy2shoes: civodul, neither had I, so I looked it up because it sounded like what I waned as my "basic" transformer form, but alas it was not 2016-05-26T08:54:30Z civodul: any pointers? 2016-05-26T08:54:38Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2016-05-26T08:55:14Z groovy2shoes: civodul, the Racket Reference, chapter 12 2016-05-26T08:56:26Z groovy2shoes: I'm struggling to stay awake now, so I'm going to go lie down 2016-05-26T08:56:40Z groovy2shoes: have a good night/morning/whatever it is where you are, everybody 2016-05-26T08:57:07Z groovy2shoes: thanks again for the answers, eli 2016-05-26T08:57:11Z narendra` joined #scheme 2016-05-26T08:58:31Z civodul: bah, CloudFare 2016-05-26T08:59:22Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Chez doesn't seem to have with-output-to-port 2016-05-26T16:48:17Z dTal: I have a routine that prints on the the current output port, and a port representing a FIFO I opened, and no clear way of connecting the two 2016-05-26T16:49:16Z walter|r joined #scheme 2016-05-26T16:50:12Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-05-26T16:50:58Z dTal: usually when this sort of thing happens it's because I'm thinking about things the wrong way - with-output-to-port seems to be nonstandard 2016-05-26T16:51:41Z dTal: but I'm not sure the correct idiom here - call-with-port closes the port when the procedure returns, not what I want 2016-05-26T16:51:52Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-05-26T16:53:59Z dTal: I'd just sigh and make all the procedures take a port argument, and pass it down the call stack, except with-output-to-file seems to support this semantic of "worrying about where the data is going later" 2016-05-26T16:54:33Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-26T16:54:59Z m0li joined #scheme 2016-05-26T16:58:00Z dTal: So what am I missing - what's the way to temporarily rebind a port to be the output port? 2016-05-26T17:01:35Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T17:01:58Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2016-05-26T17:02:43Z groovy2shoes: dTal, I don't know about Chez specifically, but iirc R6RS lacks a general "call-with-output-port", but you can probably hack what you want by using "call-with-string-output-port" and "put-string" 2016-05-26T17:03:08Z groovy2shoes: (as if I needed another reason to dislike R6RS ...) 2016-05-26T17:05:01Z groovy2shoes: (define (call-with-textual-output-port port f) (let ((str (call-with-string-output-port f))) (put-string port str)) 2016-05-26T17:06:50Z dTal: that seems like a really weird ommission 2016-05-26T17:06:58Z groovy2shoes: I know, right? 2016-05-26T17:07:13Z dTal: given that things like call-with-output-file and call-with-output-string ought to be thin wrappers around it