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2016-04-01T01:47:03Z daviid:  
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2016-04-01T10:09:01Z manumanumanu: Good day! Are there any statically typed schemes apart from typed racket?
2016-04-01T10:09:44Z C-Keen: haskell :)
2016-04-01T10:10:16Z manumanumanu: C-Keen: lol.
2016-04-01T10:10:36Z manumanumanu: Not enough parens
2016-04-01T10:11:21Z manumanumanu: I don't want to have to learn which order operators are executed :)
2016-04-01T10:11:37Z manumanumanu: especially when there are so many O_o
2016-04-01T10:11:56Z wasamasa: you can write parenthesized haskell
2016-04-01T10:14:36Z manumanumanu: Found liskell. Might be worth checking out
2016-04-01T10:14:49Z wasamasa: no, I mean
2016-04-01T10:14:57Z wasamasa: you can wrap the operators in parentheses :P
2016-04-01T10:15:36Z wasamasa: see http://www.willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html
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2016-04-01T10:35:05Z manumanumanu: Well. there is shen, even though it's not a scheme.
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2016-04-01T16:40:57Z vanila: (define (copy-list xs memo) (if (null? xs) memo (copy-list (cdr xs) (cons (car xs) memo))) is this  function tail recursivee?
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2016-04-01T17:46:53Z jcowan: vanila: what's the last thing invoked by the then-clause and the else-clause of if?
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2016-04-01T17:49:03Z oleo: if blah then else
2016-04-01T17:49:08Z oleo: then == memo
2016-04-01T17:49:13Z oleo: else == (copy-list .......
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2016-04-01T19:47:50Z n_blownapart: hi please indicate if there is tail recursion in these 2 programs and if so , where and how does it work. thanks! https://www.refheap.com/116624
2016-04-01T19:49:19Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: have you tried?
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2016-04-01T19:51:05Z n_blownapart: not getting it from examples on stack overflow.
2016-04-01T19:52:20Z qu1j0t3: where might you look?
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2016-04-01T19:52:33Z qu1j0t3: do you know what tail recursion looks like?
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2016-04-01T19:53:05Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: SICP covers this pretty well. If I recall correctly these examples are out of SICP.
2016-04-01T19:53:33Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: the popular example involves factorials so I am trying to get how the (n - 1)  notation works
2016-04-01T19:54:34Z qu1j0t3: it seems that you should go back to a definition of tail recursion
2016-04-01T19:56:47Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: This is first tackled in SICP 1.2.1
2016-04-01T19:57:33Z n_blownapart: they are out of SICP, which is dismally hard for me. though I did finally get the cubeRoot example , somone else's solution .. I certainly couldn't write it myself. really? I thought I hadn't come across the term in the book yet. qu1j0t3
2016-04-01T19:57:36Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: yes, that is a factorial example, but I don't think you should be fussy about the nature of the example. Until you've internalised what tail recursion looks like and means, you won't be able to find it in any example (e.g. the one you linked).
2016-04-01T19:58:18Z n_blownapart: ok, onward then. thanks a lot qu1j0t3
2016-04-01T19:58:23Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: Ignoring tail recursion, can you identify a recursive function?
2016-04-01T19:58:41Z n_blownapart: definitely.
2016-04-01T19:58:49Z qu1j0t3: ok, so waht is different about tail recursion?
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2016-04-01T19:59:31Z n_blownapart: from what I can gather , it is a simpler way to recurse . there is no if / then statement.
2016-04-01T19:59:46Z qu1j0t3: I wouldn't say that.
2016-04-01T19:59:56Z qu1j0t3: there is still a base case and a recursive case, and you have to discriminate them.
2016-04-01T20:00:06Z qu1j0t3: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-11.html#%_sec_1.2.1
2016-04-01T20:00:52Z qu1j0t3: do you understand the first factorial definition here, and the Figure 1.3
2016-04-01T20:01:06Z qu1j0t3: (explaining how to evaluate (factorial 6))
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2016-04-01T20:04:13Z n_blownapart: factorial is a scheme function built-in in this case? qu1j0t3
2016-04-01T20:04:23Z qu1j0t3: no, it's defined below the figure
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2016-04-01T20:05:12Z n_blownapart: essentially, I understand it. I did some ruby examples back a while.
2016-04-01T20:05:33Z qu1j0t3: right, so you see how 'deferred calculations' build up during the execution in figure 1.3?
2016-04-01T20:06:32Z n_blownapart: yes, (* 5 24) is deferred until the second to last line.
2016-04-01T20:06:57Z qu1j0t3: right. in essence it drills down to (factorial 1) before it even does a single multiplication.
2016-04-01T20:07:25Z n_blownapart: so in the sixth line....
2016-04-01T20:07:27Z qu1j0t3: the multiplications, all the work, is deferred as if on a stack.
2016-04-01T20:07:42Z qu1j0t3: this takes space during evaluation
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2016-04-01T20:09:05Z qu1j0t3: in the form of 'nested activations' of the recursive function which are waiting for the result of the next nested activation (factorial n-1)
2016-04-01T20:09:39Z n_blownapart: in the 7th line, the factorial function disappears because of the if statement (if (= n 1) => 1 .
2016-04-01T20:10:01Z qu1j0t3: that's right.
2016-04-01T20:10:03Z n_blownapart: so that is the base case
2016-04-01T20:10:09Z qu1j0t3: then everything 'unwinds', each result feeding back
2016-04-01T20:10:14Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: exactly!
2016-04-01T20:10:55Z qu1j0t3: so this illustrates a NON-tail recursive definition, what SICP calls 'linear recursive'
2016-04-01T20:11:36Z qu1j0t3: and the problem with it is that it needs O(n) space for the deferred (incomplete) computations
2016-04-01T20:11:58Z qu1j0t3: in a real system that puts a finite limit on the size of problems you could compute
2016-04-01T20:12:06Z qu1j0t3: pretty soon (factorial n) would crash for some n
2016-04-01T20:12:44Z n_blownapart: thanks qu1j0t3 hold on please ...
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2016-04-01T20:16:37Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: does the base case need to be last in logic flow to be tail recursion?
2016-04-01T20:17:26Z qu1j0t3: it's not about the base case so much. The *recursive* case needs to be 'in tail position', i.e. not requiring any further computation
2016-04-01T20:17:50Z qu1j0t3: you can probably revisit your pastebin link and see how this applies to the recursive calls
2016-04-01T20:19:29Z qu1j0t3: when I say 'not requiring any further computation', i mean that the result of the recursive call can be used directly as the result
2016-04-01T20:19:43Z qu1j0t3: (there is no deferred computation to be done)
2016-04-01T20:20:58Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: one sec
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2016-04-01T20:23:15Z n_blownapart: well, the recursive call involves the good-enough function, so cube-root-er cannot return a final value. good-enough actually returns the final values #t and guess .
2016-04-01T20:23:20Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: ^
2016-04-01T20:25:17Z n_blownapart: maybe that is poorly worded
2016-04-01T20:25:56Z qu1j0t3: you can ignore non recursive functions
2016-04-01T20:26:31Z qu1j0t3: so you only need to look at sqrt-iter
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2016-04-01T20:27:10Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: When the else branch of the if is taken at line 19, the result can be used directly as the result of sqrt-iter. that makes it tail recursive.
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2016-04-01T20:35:43Z n_blownapart: but isn't the base case essentially involved in good-enough? qu1j0t3
2016-04-01T20:36:07Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: good-enough? is of no interest here because it's not recursive.
2016-04-01T20:36:34Z qu1j0t3: line 18 is the base case.. again of no interest in determining whether it's tail recursive.
2016-04-01T20:37:36Z qu1j0t3: you have to look at the recursive case. So the rule is: Given a function f, is the result of the recursive call to f used directly as the result of f?
2016-04-01T20:38:11Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: In the case of sqrt-iter, the result of the recursive call to sqrt-iter IS the result of sqrt-iter.
2016-04-01T20:40:41Z n_blownapart: I got that. ok, so in the factorial case, computations are still lacking at the end, and recursion doesn't compute them. simple arithmetic operators finish the program qu1j0t3
2016-04-01T20:40:50Z qu1j0t3: yes.
2016-04-01T20:41:00Z qu1j0t3: each multiplication is deferred.
2016-04-01T20:41:06Z n_blownapart: got it  ! you RULE. qu1j0t3
2016-04-01T20:41:09Z qu1j0t3: so, on that page of SICP, the tail recursive version is derived
2016-04-01T20:41:14Z qu1j0t3: it can be a different thought process
2016-04-01T20:41:21Z qu1j0t3: but the rule is simple
2016-04-01T20:41:28Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: yw.
2016-04-01T20:41:48Z n_blownapart: excellent qu1j0t3 its always a pleasure. I can move on
2016-04-01T20:42:00Z n_blownapart: thanks
2016-04-01T20:42:01Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: any time.
2016-04-01T20:42:11Z n_blownapart: very kind of you
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2016-04-01T22:24:30Z jyc_: Is there an IRC channel for Gauche scheme somewhere? I found the mailing list
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2016-04-02T06:11:44Z wasamasa: jyc_: /query alis list gauche
2016-04-02T06:11:58Z wasamasa: jyc_: this tells me there is one, but given the amount of nicks in it...
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2016-04-02T06:12:57Z jyc_: wasamasa: didn't know about that, thanks
2016-04-02T06:13:06Z jyc_: Haha I think I am in the one :)
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2016-04-02T17:01:54Z JuanDaugherty: any recommendations for PDDL in scheme?
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2016-04-02T19:09:01Z jcowan: ho hey ho
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2016-04-02T19:12:34Z ak102: how did i get here
2016-04-02T19:14:23Z JoshS: ak102, letting the days go by, letting the water hold you down?
2016-04-02T19:16:47Z jcowan: IEEE Scheme is due to expire in 2018.  The question has been raised, what shall we (the Scheme community) do?
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2016-04-02T19:17:11Z Riastradh: Does anyone care about IEEE Scheme?
2016-04-02T19:17:28Z jcowan: I see three choices:  try to get R7RS-small accepted as the new IEEE standard, try to get R4RS+ renewed as the existing IEEE standard, or do nothing and let it expire.
2016-04-02T19:17:45Z jcowan: I don't know, that's why I'm raising the point.  SK wrote Art Gleckler bringing it up.
2016-04-02T19:18:24Z JoshS: Are there implementations of the proposed standards
2016-04-02T19:18:58Z jcowan: There are several implementations of R7RS-small now
2016-04-02T19:19:29Z jcowan: 8 by current count plus 3 partial implementations.
2016-04-02T19:19:44Z jcowan: Of course almost all Schemes implement at least R4RS, Oaklisp being an exception
2016-04-02T19:19:51Z jcowan: (and various toy Schemes)
2016-04-02T19:20:28Z jcowan: I'll post on c.l.s as well (which should probably be called s.l.s now)
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2016-04-02T23:15:01Z cojy: i would say r7rs-small but ive never even heard there was an ieee standard until now so i dont think it matters
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2016-04-03T02:05:03Z mejja: The Silence of the Lambdas..
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2016-04-03T02:09:47Z mejja: Hi!
2016-04-03T02:09:58Z mejja: Good morning Scheme!
2016-04-03T02:10:05Z Riastradh: Boo!
2016-04-03T02:10:11Z mejja: Hello old fart!
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2016-04-03T02:15:53Z mejja: Riastradh: what's up?
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2016-04-03T03:03:05Z mejja: ?
2016-04-03T03:03:59Z Riastradh: Not much Schemewise lately.
2016-04-03T03:06:44Z mejja: me neither..
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2016-04-03T03:10:54Z mejja: nowadays mostly Matlab (do not laugh)
2016-04-03T03:11:27Z Riastradh: Condolences...
2016-04-03T03:11:47Z mejja: ;-)
2016-04-03T03:12:09Z JoshS: Mathematica is more fun
2016-04-03T03:12:14Z JoshS: but since I'm no longer a student
2016-04-03T03:12:19Z JoshS: I can't afford a copy
2016-04-03T03:12:21Z JoshS: >.>
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2016-04-03T03:25:10Z mejja: JoshS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udNeNXzCVhc
2016-04-03T03:32:41Z JoshS: the wolfram language isn't really available outside of mathematic.  Didn't they threaten to sue some famous researching for making a mini wolfram like language
2016-04-03T03:32:51Z JoshS: *mathematica
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2016-04-03T03:40:25Z mejja: 50 years ago http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/bbnlisp/BBN-LISP-System_Feb1966.pdf
2016-04-03T03:42:10Z JoshS: I love the typewritten look
2016-04-03T03:42:14Z JoshS: of old lisp documents
2016-04-03T03:42:15Z JoshS: >.>
2016-04-03T03:42:37Z JoshS: and yeah i remember reading about similar systems to wolfram
2016-04-03T03:42:43Z JoshS: with the various pattern matching
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2016-04-03T04:37:19Z lambda-11235: "Published his first scientific paper at age 15"
2016-04-03T04:38:10Z lambda-11235: Nothing makes you feel quite so inferior.
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2016-04-03T18:02:45Z qu1j0t3: meh, people are different. Hadn't Stephen Wolfram graduated Cambridge by 16?
2016-04-03T18:03:14Z qu1j0t3: it's not a contest and there does not exist anything remotely like a measure for people let alone a univariate one.
2016-04-03T18:11:45Z rszeno: 16 is 2016?
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2016-04-03T18:39:47Z qu1j0t3: no, "age 16".
2016-04-03T18:40:28Z qu1j0t3:   'By age 15 he began research in applied quantum field theory and particle physics and publish scientific papers. Topics included matter creation and annihilation, the fundamental interactions, elementary particles and their currents, hadronic and leptonic physics, and the parton model, published in professional peer-reviewed scientific journals including Nuclear Physics B, Australian Journal of Physics,
2016-04-03T18:40:30Z qu1j0t3: Nuovo Cimento, and Physical Review D.[29] Working independently, Wolfram published a widely cited paper on heavy quark production at age 18'
2016-04-03T18:40:45Z qu1j0t3: hm, okay, no he did not graduate there. 'He entered St. John's College, Oxford at age 17 but found lectures "awful",[15] and left in 1978[32] without graduating'
2016-04-03T18:41:13Z scoofy: well, he had a point - lectures are awful!
2016-04-03T18:41:15Z qu1j0t3: anyway the point being, people are diverse.
2016-04-03T18:41:48Z qu1j0t3: not better or worse, just diverse.  :)
2016-04-03T18:42:00Z scoofy: unless you compare them according to some metric
2016-04-03T18:42:09Z qu1j0t3: if you find any non-useless metric, tell us.
2016-04-03T18:42:23Z scoofy: you can compare who is a better runner. you can measure it.
2016-04-03T18:42:30Z scoofy: that's just 1 metric out of 1 million
2016-04-03T18:42:43Z scoofy: there are millions of competitions worldwide :)
2016-04-03T18:42:50Z qu1j0t3: have fun.
2016-04-03T18:43:50Z scoofy: what is 'useful', and for what purpose, is an entirely different story. i guess if you ask companies, they will rank people according to things like, how well they work, how much they earn, how much assets they represent to the company, etc.
2016-04-03T18:44:26Z qu1j0t3: do you know how to measure 'how well somebody works'?
2016-04-03T18:44:40Z scoofy: i'm positive that there are scientific studies done in that area.
2016-04-03T18:44:56Z scoofy: also if your job is say, to make contracts, then you can simply count at the end of the week, how many contracts you did.
2016-04-03T18:45:00Z qu1j0t3: heard of Taylorism?
2016-04-03T18:45:03Z scoofy: the more contracts you did, the better job you did.
2016-04-03T18:45:09Z scoofy: nope.
2016-04-03T18:45:25Z scoofy: lots of things are 'countable'
2016-04-03T18:45:46Z qu1j0t3: If you think 'data driven' companies make good decisions, i invite you to work for one. :)
2016-04-03T18:45:47Z qu1j0t3 has
2016-04-03T18:46:00Z scoofy: to be honest, i'm not fully sure what 'data driven company' means
2016-04-03T18:46:15Z qu1j0t3: companies which use that as a tenet. they exist.
2016-04-03T18:46:20Z qu1j0t3: you just sketched out your interest in such a tenet.
2016-04-03T18:46:23Z scoofy: surely.
2016-04-03T18:46:41Z qu1j0t3: anyway this is off topic. But do go work for one.
2016-04-03T18:46:48Z scoofy: my interest? nope. i just said, that *if* you asked a certain type of person, likely that's the answer you'd get
2016-04-03T18:47:09Z scoofy: 'do go work for one' - your point being?
2016-04-03T18:47:22Z qu1j0t3: my point is above. such metrics are worthless.
2016-04-03T18:47:25Z qu1j0t3: they're fantasies.
2016-04-03T18:47:32Z scoofy: 'worthless' by what metric? :)
2016-04-03T18:47:37Z scoofy: you have to measure the metric as well...
2016-04-03T18:47:41Z scoofy: so you need a metric for the metri
2016-04-03T18:48:37Z scoofy: if I sell say, beer, and at the end of the day some employer sells more beer than another, well, that's not "fantasy". that's business.
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2016-04-03T19:50:23Z premysl: Hey.
2016-04-03T19:50:51Z groovy2shoes: yo
2016-04-03T19:50:55Z premysl: What am I missing here? http://pastebin.com/zQGnPfvk Interpreter doesn't eat this.
2016-04-03T19:52:07Z groovy2shoes: you probably want to wrap your `b1 b1 ...` in the first case in a `begin`: `(begin b1 b2 ...)`
2016-04-03T19:52:19Z premysl: Will try.
2016-04-03T19:52:55Z groovy2shoes: one of the things the report explicitly mentions `begin` for :)
2016-04-03T19:53:20Z premysl: Woo, thanks.
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2016-04-03T19:55:17Z premysl is just doing book exercises, and while it's annoying AF, he's prolly never gonna learn the language otherwise
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2016-04-05T18:00:56Z spintronic: jcowan: hey man whatcha doin there?
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2016-04-05T18:01:10Z spintronic: jcowan: which scheme are you using man??
2016-04-05T18:01:24Z jcowan: Chicken and Chibi, mostly, except when I'm testing things.
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2016-04-05T18:14:56Z spintronic: Cool I've never heard of Chibi before. The only scheme I have installed right now is Racket.
2016-04-05T18:15:31Z spintronic: Oh an guile.
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2016-04-05T18:17:55Z jcowan: But I do have 50 or so Schemes installed for comparative testing purposes
2016-04-05T18:18:23Z wasamasa: rudybot: the scheme herder?
2016-04-05T18:18:32Z wasamasa: oh damnit, that bot isn't even present
2016-04-05T18:18:54Z jcowan: Occasionally I add a new one
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2016-04-05T18:43:06Z ecraven: jcowan: do you have an automated testing setup to run them all on some input?
2016-04-05T18:44:39Z jcowan: Not automated, no.  I have a script that runs them all, and I just paste something into each of them.  The reason is that they typically require different setup incantations due to their very different module systems, if any.
2016-04-05T18:45:18Z jcowan: Generally, the R4RS core Just Works, but beyond that it's often a different story, and sometimes I need to completely reformulate a test.
2016-04-05T18:45:32Z jcowan: For example, it's tricky to test NaN behavior on systems that don't have a NaN literal.
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2016-04-05T18:46:47Z wasamasa: hmm
2016-04-05T18:47:01Z wasamasa: I tried getting one by using 0.0 in calculations, but not even that seems to be standardized
2016-04-05T18:47:15Z wasamasa: like, in elisp (/ 1 0.0) returns positive infinity, but in csi it fails
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2016-04-05T18:57:14Z jcowan: Right, that's another example.
2016-04-05T18:57:41Z jcowan: You can manipulate Chicken (without the numbers egg) into generating a NaN, but it's annoyingly (to someone with my purposes) indirect.
2016-04-05T18:58:27Z jcowan: (Nowadays Chicken does support +nan.0 syntax.)
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2016-04-05T19:01:04Z jcowan: (- (* 1e300 1e300) (* 1e300 1e300))
2016-04-05T19:01:04Z jcowan:  is a fairly portable expression for generating NaN, although it fails on systems with non-IEEE floats.
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2016-04-06T05:24:28Z ecraven: just out of curiosity, what are systems without IEEE-floats?
2016-04-06T05:24:36Z ecraven: do they have no floats, or different floats?
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2016-04-06T06:50:21Z rmrfchik: hi, what's the best way to use chicken as cgi (or similar) with apache?
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2016-04-06T07:18:03Z wasamasa: rmrfchik: I think you'd get answers to that over at #chicken
2016-04-06T07:21:15Z rmrfchik: thanks
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2016-04-06T14:10:03Z qu1j0t3: ecraven: a well known example is VAX-11. Different format floats.
2016-04-06T14:10:13Z qu1j0t3: ecraven: also, more than two formats.
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2016-04-06T15:48:57Z jcowan: AFAIK there are no modern machines that have non-IEEE hardware floats, with the exception of IBM mainframes, and even they also have IEEE floats.
2016-04-06T15:49:21Z jcowan: There are machines with software-only floats, which are normally IEEE (and if they aren't,, you can make them so).
2016-04-06T15:53:33Z jcowan: And by "modern" I mean "since 1990"
2016-04-06T15:56:41Z ijp: it's amusing to have the year you were born be the cutoff for "modern"
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2016-04-06T15:57:01Z ijp: especially in this field
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2016-04-06T16:02:41Z jcowan: FOr me, the year I was born is the cutoff for "Lisp exists"
2016-04-06T16:03:10Z jcowan: Actually, the Cray SV1 used non-IEEE FP and was introduced in 1998, but that's a very marginal case
2016-04-06T16:07:46Z JoshS: I think I was born about the cuttoff for "walt disney lives"
2016-04-06T16:13:39Z jcowan: 1966
2016-04-06T16:13:52Z jcowan: I meant the cutoff for "Lisp does not exist"
2016-04-06T16:14:50Z jcowan: http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2011/11/john-mccarthy-inventor-of-lisp-died.html <-- very very old Lisp program translated to Scheme
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2016-04-06T18:24:13Z jackdaniel: erm, anyone is proficient in guix (package manager) and wants to have a presentation on pkgsrc conf in krakow about it? (1st june)
2016-04-06T18:30:10Z mario-goulart: jackdaniel: if nobody here responds, maybe try #guile
2016-04-06T18:30:52Z jackdaniel: right, thanks. I'll repost it there
2016-04-06T18:31:20Z davexunit: jackdaniel: #guix is the correct channel
2016-04-06T18:31:38Z mario-goulart: oh
2016-04-06T18:31:40Z jackdaniel: sigh, then I'll repost for the third time ^_^
2016-04-06T18:31:42Z davexunit: guix-devel@gnu.org would be the mailing list to send it to as well
2016-04-06T18:31:45Z mario-goulart: :-)
2016-04-06T18:31:45Z davexunit: jackdaniel: thanks ;)
2016-04-06T18:31:51Z jackdaniel: (thanks)
2016-04-06T18:32:15Z davexunit: => 'you-are-welcome
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2016-04-07T00:21:38Z jyc_: just wondering, I'd never thought to ask this before: does anyone know why the RnRS call Scheme the "Algorithmic Language Scheme"?
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2016-04-07T00:23:41Z pierpa: It's a hommage to Algol
2016-04-07T00:24:41Z pierpa: http://web.eecs.umich.edu/~bchandra/courses/papers/Naure_Algol60.pdf
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2016-04-07T00:37:32Z pierpa: http://ddhf.dk/site_dk/rc/algol/algol60.pdf
2016-04-07T00:37:52Z jyc_: I see, thanks!
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2016-04-07T00:38:17Z pierpa: then name RnRS itself is an hommage to Algol
2016-04-07T00:38:20Z pierpa: -n
2016-04-07T00:38:23Z jyc_: but now you can guess my question :P why was algol called that? was it just because the term programming language wasn't as set yet?
2016-04-07T00:38:45Z pierpa: Algol stands for Algorithmic Language
2016-04-07T00:38:54Z pierpa: I don't know who named it so
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2016-04-07T00:39:01Z jyc_: oh, haha, cool
2016-04-07T00:39:04Z jyc_: thanks again
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2016-04-07T00:45:34Z mejja: "It must be clear however that with respect to computing time and round-off errors it may not be optimal nor has it actually been tested on a computer" -- page 38; http://ddhf.dk/site_dk/rc/algol/algol60.pdf
2016-04-07T00:47:25Z pierpa: :)
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2016-04-07T13:21:35Z djh: Anyone know what's happened to community.schemewiki.org ? Seems to have been down for a few days
2016-04-07T13:25:25Z gnomon: djh, I was just wondering that same thing myself.
2016-04-07T13:25:52Z gnomon: djh, I don't have any information about what's going on there, but I also care about the answer to your question.
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2016-04-07T13:28:58Z ecraven: whois says notfound :-/
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2016-04-07T13:35:54Z gnomon: Well, that would do it.
2016-04-07T13:36:07Z djh: whois schemewiki.org still works tho
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2016-04-07T18:56:28Z jcowan: according to my reading of R6RS, the only inexact number that has to exist is 0.0
2016-04-07T18:57:29Z wasamasa: for a moment I thought you were using a smiley
2016-04-07T18:58:49Z ijp: jcowan: that wouldn't surprise me
2016-04-07T18:59:27Z ijp: I think if you language lawyer right, you could get away with not supporting numbers in scheme
2016-04-07T18:59:34Z jcowan: it's still open whether R7RS-large will require IEEE semantics for flonums and compnums
2016-04-07T18:59:59Z ijp: the justification being some line about requiring numbers for valid vector indices
2016-04-07T19:00:10Z jcowan: currently bignums, ratnums, flonums, and compnums must exist, but exact complex numbers are not a requirement.
2016-04-07T19:00:26Z jcowan: You really can't escape + and such, though
2016-04-07T19:00:38Z jcowan: either bignums or flonums is pretty much a requirement
2016-04-07T19:00:51Z jcowan: well, no, I go too far
2016-04-07T19:00:57Z ijp: jcowan: in practice, of course not. It was just a notion I had a while back
2016-04-07T19:01:16Z jcowan: There are four orthogonal properties of a valid Scheme numeric tower:
2016-04-07T19:01:24Z jcowan: 1) exact operations other than / are closed
2016-04-07T19:01:30Z jcowan: 2) exact / is closed
2016-04-07T19:01:36Z jcowan: 3) flonums exist
2016-04-07T19:01:43Z jcowan: 4) complex numbers exist
2016-04-07T19:01:51Z jcowan: s/flonums/inexact numbers/
2016-04-07T19:02:03Z ijp: where do mixed exactness complex numbers fit in?
2016-04-07T19:02:09Z ijp: not that anyone does that
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2016-04-07T19:04:52Z jcowan: R7RS-small defines them as inexact, but does not require that they be supported
2016-04-07T19:05:39Z jcowan: See http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/NumericTower and http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ComplexRepresentations for the nitty gritty
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2016-04-08T01:41:07Z nolski: Hi all, I have some questions about the built in scheme grammar parser and lexer
2016-04-08T01:41:51Z nolski: I'm running off of an existing example and trying to extend a basic language parser and there's a couple of parts which are confusing me a little bit.
2016-04-08T01:42:31Z rszeno: first don't ask to ask, just ask, second mention the scheme you use
2016-04-08T01:44:28Z rszeno: pretty much syntax doesn't depend on your interpreter so you can ignore 'my second' point
2016-04-08T01:44:51Z rszeno ... up to some point
2016-04-08T01:45:17Z rszeno: so, what confuse you?
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2016-04-08T01:45:54Z nolski: Sure, the question is a bit involved but I can give a working copy of what I have so far. http://pastebin.com/ZDh9xypK
2016-04-08T01:46:16Z nolski: I'm using Pretty Big for my interpereter
2016-04-08T01:47:03Z nolski: But so here is the overview of my problem. I'm trying to add new grammars to my parser (in this case, checking for equality) using the '==' symbol. all other grammars work fine.
2016-04-08T01:49:19Z nolski: The error from the parser is being thrown on EQ2 and I'm having trouble figuring out what I am missing. The error function says that the token is valid but the tok-ok? parameter is #f
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2016-04-08T01:49:29Z nolski: rszeno: ^ (sorry if it's a bit wordy)
2016-04-08T01:49:38Z mejja: Pretty Big is a #racket ism, right?
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2016-04-08T01:49:59Z rszeno: no problem, i'm lost already, :)
2016-04-08T01:50:21Z ijp: nolski: your parser will never parse an equality
2016-04-08T01:50:22Z nolski: mejja: Yeah, but I think this is only using functionality from scheme. Perhaps #racket is a better place to work though
2016-04-08T01:50:49Z ijp: you'd need to change your start
2016-04-08T01:51:35Z ijp: currently it starts by trying to treat the expression as an exp
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2016-04-08T01:52:19Z nolski: hm, I see what you're saying, but why would it then error out on the EQ2 (equality) symbol?
2016-04-08T01:52:43Z nolski: and it only errors out when the EQ2 symbol is used
2016-04-08T01:52:57Z ijp: right, because EQ2 is only used in the 'equality' rule
2016-04-08T01:53:06Z ijp: there is no other rule which can parse it
2016-04-08T01:54:55Z nolski: ahhhh
2016-04-08T01:54:56Z nolski: I see
2016-04-08T01:55:00Z nolski: Thank you ijp :)
2016-04-08T01:55:15Z nolski: Not sure if yall do karma in here but ijp++
2016-04-08T01:56:15Z rszeno :), i guess is no karma here
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2016-04-08T10:40:00Z jusss: so quiet!
2016-04-08T10:40:15Z ecraven: :) talk!
2016-04-08T10:41:27Z jusss: no question now...
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2016-04-08T10:43:29Z ecraven: have you been using Scheme for long?
2016-04-08T10:44:47Z jusss: no :(
2016-04-08T10:44:58Z ecraven: using it in class?
2016-04-08T10:45:41Z jusss: just for fun
2016-04-08T10:45:50Z ecraven: nice :)
2016-04-08T10:46:58Z jusss: it's so weak on some stuff, like socket gui etc...
2016-04-08T10:47:15Z jusss: srfi is not good enough I think
2016-04-08T10:47:16Z ecraven: Scheme? well, which implementation did you look at?
2016-04-08T10:47:24Z ecraven: they all have sockets, gui, etc.
2016-04-08T10:47:26Z jusss: now I use racket
2016-04-08T10:47:27Z ecraven: but not in a portable way
2016-04-08T10:47:59Z jusss: yes, they have, but not very good than other languages like python
2016-04-08T10:48:16Z ecraven: well, there are many more Scheme implementations than python implementations
2016-04-08T10:49:26Z jusss: and they're still not better than python :(
2016-04-08T10:49:41Z ecraven: jusss: what exactly do you mean by "better"?
2016-04-08T10:49:47Z ecraven: there are Schemes that are faster
2016-04-08T10:49:52Z ecraven: there are Schemes that have better tooling
2016-04-08T10:50:09Z ecraven: but no one prevents you from just using Python, if you think that is better than Scheme
2016-04-08T10:50:41Z jusss: ecraven: ok, what about socket, I still don't know racket how to detect network disconnected or not
2016-04-08T10:51:02Z ecraven: for example: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/tcp.html
2016-04-08T10:51:16Z jusss: I meant it disconnected suddenly without exit signal
2016-04-08T10:51:46Z ecraven: if you want to check layer-0 connectivity, you'd probably have to call external programs, like mii-tool or ethtool
2016-04-08T10:54:29Z jusss: ecraven: IIRC the client should get empty string from the server when it suddently disconnected without exit signal in C and python language
2016-04-08T10:54:49Z ecraven: that's probably what happens in Scheme too. did you test it?
2016-04-08T10:54:57Z jusss: but racket only get EOF
2016-04-08T10:55:40Z jusss: ecraven: racket can't get empty string, it only can detect EOF
2016-04-08T10:56:08Z ecraven: well, eof is the right thing, how else would you know whether the stream is over or nothing was sent?
2016-04-08T10:56:16Z jusss: but the server don't give it a EOF, so I really don't how to use racket ot detect that
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2016-04-08T10:57:03Z ecraven: you use (eof-object? your-binding)
2016-04-08T10:58:21Z jusss: the server don't give you eof,what's the point to (eof-object? your-binding)?
2016-04-08T10:58:45Z ecraven: if there is no connection, and you read from the port, you will get an eof object in racket
2016-04-08T10:58:50Z jusss: it just disconnected suddently
2016-04-08T10:59:54Z jusss: you mean over the timeout, and you'll get one eof that your machine create?
2016-04-08T11:00:10Z ecraven: yes
2016-04-08T11:00:28Z ecraven: just like reading from a file, there's no eof in the file either, and still you get one after reading all the contents
2016-04-08T11:01:17Z jusss: ok, I will try that
2016-04-08T11:01:38Z jusss: which element you use?
2016-04-08T11:01:45Z ecraven: element?
2016-04-08T11:01:53Z jusss: implementation
2016-04-08T11:02:00Z jusss: my bad english
2016-04-08T11:02:02Z ecraven: MIT/GNU Scheme mostly, but that depends on what I do :)
2016-04-08T11:03:11Z jusss: what the mostly you do with scheme?
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2016-04-08T11:03:57Z ecraven: a lot of just fun programming, small things. also some web systems for clients
2016-04-08T11:04:03Z ecraven: enrolment systems for events
2016-04-08T11:09:49Z jusss: I have to go, see you later :)
2016-04-08T11:09:54Z ecraven: bye :)
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2016-04-08T13:42:05Z retroj: taylan: i'm working in chicken scheme, and i saw that it isn't mentioned specifically in the manual, but that it looks very portable.  is chicken supported or planned?
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2016-04-08T13:44:04Z taylan: retroj: if Chicken's R7RS support is complete, it should work
2016-04-08T13:44:50Z taylan: I remember having difficulties with Chicken/R7RS, so I didn't test bytestructures with it, but maybe it improved since.
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2016-04-08T13:45:45Z retroj: okay, i look forward to checking it out.  i'd be happy to help on that front, and help with getting it into chicken's extensions repo if you like
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2016-04-08T13:47:29Z retroj: taylan: the two big features that i need are working with arrays of structs (like pixel buffers) and endian conversion support.  does bytestructures have such features?
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2016-04-08T13:52:42Z taylan: retroj: arrays of structs like in C are fine.  endian conversion might be possible with the R6RS bytevector operations...
2016-04-08T13:52:56Z retroj: taylan: great :-)
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2016-04-08T13:53:30Z retroj: i have some hacks for endian conversion in my current code that i can copy over and improve later
2016-04-08T13:54:02Z JoshS: I like big-endian, I can not lie
2016-04-08T13:54:04Z JoshS: ...
2016-04-08T13:54:12Z retroj: :-D
2016-04-08T13:54:29Z taylan: ah yeah, the R6RS bytevector operations are supported so long as you have R7RS support, thanks to Larceny's (r6rs ...) libraries that are implemented in R7RS
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2016-04-08T13:56:06Z retroj: cool
2016-04-08T13:56:47Z taylan: hence there's types like uint32le, uint32be, etc.  https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-bytestructures/blob/master/r7/numeric.exports.sld
2016-04-08T14:02:26Z retroj: great, i'll give this a try and let you know what questions and successes i have with it.  thanks!
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2016-04-08T14:17:31Z nolski: Hey all, I have yet another scheme parser question: I don't think I understand how the parser deals with an optional symbol.
2016-04-08T14:18:53Z nolski: I'm extending this parser function and allowing it to pick up on simple class declarations and such. However it errors out on the symbols at the end evaluating to #f (in this case the closed brackets are the issues)
2016-04-08T14:19:01Z nolski: http://pastebin.com/PS9Hnxe1
2016-04-08T14:19:35Z nolski: I'm thinking the issue is because I don't have anything where "methdecls" should be but I'd like that to be optional
2016-04-08T14:20:51Z ijp: so add a rule making it optional
2016-04-08T14:22:11Z nolski: I'm not entirely sure how to do that within the context of the parser
2016-04-08T14:23:20Z nolski: I assume that I'd like something like CLASS id EXTENDS id OB optional(methdecls) CB
2016-04-08T14:23:39Z ijp: I don't know if that parser has special syntax of
2016-04-08T14:23:41Z nolski: or have methdecls end up being either `METHOD id OP formals CP exp` OR ``
2016-04-08T14:23:53Z ijp: I don't know if that parser has special syntax for optional methods, but you would just have two rules in methdecls
2016-04-08T14:24:02Z leppie: nolski: in YACC it wuld be like mdecls: /* empty */ | mdecl mdecls;
2016-04-08T14:24:21Z leppie: Not sure what the syntax for the scheme version would be
2016-04-08T14:24:31Z ijp: I presume you have the same issue with classdecls
2016-04-08T14:24:54Z nolski: ijp: I do
2016-04-08T14:25:06Z nolski: I think I see what you're saying though
2016-04-08T14:25:37Z ijp: I don't have a racket install, but I presume it's something like (classdecl ((classdecl classdecls) (cons $1 $2)) (() '()))
2016-04-08T14:25:45Z leppie: i would assume there would be some syntax for 'empty'. Maybe #f or '()
2016-04-08T14:26:35Z nolski: leppie: I think it's something of the sort. I don't see it defined in the docs but let me fiddle around with it and see if I can figure it out :)
2016-04-08T14:26:47Z leppie: like ijp said: maybe even just ('()) for that last rule
2016-04-08T14:30:19Z nolski: hmm..
2016-04-08T14:30:38Z nolski: So now when it hits EOF it say's the value is #f
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2016-04-08T14:56:16Z ijp: nolski: it's hard to say without running it, but did you add a second rule to both classdecls and methdecls?
2016-04-08T14:57:02Z ijp: also, that code wouldn't parse anyway, because your programs expect an expression after classdecls (or it would if that rule terminated)
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2016-04-08T15:08:22Z nolski: ijp: I made exp optional as well
2016-04-08T15:09:03Z nolski: http://pastebin.com/rFg2Rm9Y
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2016-04-08T15:16:49Z nolski: ... I'm also getting shift/reduce conflicts
2016-04-08T15:17:01Z nolski: But there's no stack trace or anything. I'm not sure what's throwing it...
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2016-04-08T15:19:27Z ijp: none of these are really Scheme problems but grammar problems, a shift/reduce conflict means the grammar is ambiguous
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2016-04-08T15:22:42Z leppie: shift/reduce can be acceptable, but not reduce/reduce. sometimes you need ambiguous rules that does the same thing which you can handle with shift/reduce conflicts
2016-04-08T15:24:25Z leppie: but with a simple grammar like yours, I would not expect any
2016-04-08T15:26:27Z ijp: I'm trying not to write your grammar for you, but I think you are making questionable decisions
2016-04-08T15:27:36Z ijp: the conflict is probably between classdecl and that you made exp optional everywhere
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2016-04-08T15:29:35Z nolski: ijp: Yeah I started getting sloppy and making everything optional at this point to try and figure out how the parser itself works and that in and of itself is causing issues. Let me try and clean up my grammar to be more reasonable.
2016-04-08T15:29:49Z ijp: I'd have done (program ((classdecls exps) ...)) (clasdecls ((classdecl classdecls ...) (() ...))) (exps ((exp exps ...) (() ...)))
2016-04-08T15:30:30Z ijp: the parser form is there to mimic grammars as much as possible, so once you have the grammar sorted, the translation should be mostly straightforward
2016-04-08T15:31:51Z X-Scale: nolski: you also have ##parsers
2016-04-08T15:32:42Z nolski: Oh man, there is a channel for everything. freenode is wild
2016-04-08T15:32:48Z nolski: Thanks X-Scale :)
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2016-04-08T15:33:52Z X-Scale: You're welcome :)
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2016-04-08T16:14:27Z dr-lambda: there is no irc for lambda calculus as far as i know
2016-04-08T16:14:36Z dr-lambda: channel*
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2016-04-08T16:20:08Z taylan: dr-lambda: unlikely.  maybe the math channel.  asking here should be fine too.
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2016-04-08T16:54:03Z theseb: so there's no command to get the TYPE of a value/variable?
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2016-04-08T16:56:51Z LeoNerd: Scheme variables don't have types. Only values do
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2016-04-08T17:00:17Z theseb: LeoNerd: so how find types of values?
2016-04-08T17:00:33Z wasamasa: implementation-specific
2016-04-08T17:01:01Z wasamasa: oh and scheme is not CL
2016-04-08T17:01:08Z fadein: theseb: there are predicates, such as boolean? number? string?, etc
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2016-04-08T17:05:32Z theseb: if a racket program has (+ 1 2) (+ 1 2) then 3 is printed TWICe..how suppress output of sexps?
2016-04-08T17:05:56Z theseb: wasamasa: WHY is it implementation specific? why standard deosnt' define?
2016-04-08T17:06:18Z wasamasa: theseb: I guess decent introspection support isn't important enough for a *minimal* language
2016-04-08T17:06:28Z wasamasa: theseb: if you disagree, r7rs-large is over there
2016-04-08T17:07:54Z wasamasa: oh and #racket
2016-04-08T17:08:21Z davexunit: theseb: you can't ask for the type of a value, but you can run use predicates to ask if a value if a value meets some criteria.
2016-04-08T17:09:04Z LeoNerd: Is that not the meaning of the word "type"?
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2016-04-08T17:09:36Z LeoNerd: I would say that the "type" of a value in Scheme is the identity of which one of the seven(?) basic predicate test functions it returns true for
2016-04-08T17:09:44Z davexunit: the point is, you can't just say (eq? (value-type foo) 'string)
2016-04-08T17:09:47Z davexunit: or whatever
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2016-04-09T08:17:42Z jusss: (or/c ...) (not/c ...) (any/c ...) what they mean? is there a simple example?
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2016-04-09T08:28:41Z jusss: pjb: hi, do you know (or/c ...) (not/c ...) (any/c ...) what they mean? is there a simple	example?
2016-04-09T08:32:45Z pjb: I don't know those macros.
2016-04-09T08:32:54Z pjb: Find their sources!
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2016-04-09T08:38:18Z jusss: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/data-structure-contracts.html#%28def._%28%28lib._racket%2Fcontract%2Fbase..rkt%29._or%2Fc%29%29
2016-04-09T08:38:54Z jusss: my english so poor, I can't understand what it say... it don't give a simple example!
2016-04-09T08:39:05Z jusss: contracts stuff
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2016-04-09T09:02:39Z pjb: jusss: chapter 8 introduces the notion of contract.  It says they're basically just predicates.
2016-04-09T09:03:31Z pjb: or/c, and/c, etc  are contract combinators.  (or/c c1 c2) = (lambda (x) (or (c1 x) (c2 x))) etc.
2016-04-09T09:04:06Z pjb: It's like types. Only they're defined by a predicate function.
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2016-04-09T09:26:14Z jusss: what's "types"?
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2016-04-09T10:18:44Z jmarciano: is there some common way to use program-arguments in Geiser?
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2016-04-09T11:48:52Z jusss: (define a "ee")
2016-04-09T11:49:30Z jusss: how to turn '("c" a "d") to '("c" "ee" "d") ? use `?
2016-04-09T11:49:49Z jusss: I almost forget macros
2016-04-09T11:50:02Z jusss: (list "c" a "d")
2016-04-09T11:50:21Z jusss: '("c" `a "d")?
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2016-04-09T11:55:33Z wasamasa: `("c" ,a "d")
2016-04-09T11:58:59Z jusss: wasamasa: yes!
2016-04-09T11:59:35Z jusss: I don't use macros for a long time
2016-04-09T11:59:41Z wasamasa: this is not a macro
2016-04-09T11:59:50Z jusss: oh,
2016-04-09T11:59:51Z wasamasa: this is reader syntax
2016-04-09T12:00:29Z jusss: ok, I forget lots of somethings
2016-04-09T12:01:17Z wasamasa: I recommend reading r5rs
2016-04-09T12:01:49Z wasamasa: or whatever other standard your scheme implementation goes after
2016-04-09T12:02:02Z wasamasa: or if you're using racket, their manual
2016-04-09T12:03:39Z jusss: yes, you're right, racket's examples are too rare
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2016-04-09T12:04:05Z wasamasa: they also have a channel :P
2016-04-09T12:05:25Z jusss: yes, but they don't talk mostly, maybe it's wrong time when I ask something
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2016-04-09T12:16:11Z wasamasa: just like here, huh
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2016-04-09T12:24:32Z jusss: network disconnect...
2016-04-09T12:28:24Z jusss: wasamasa: do you use racket?
2016-04-09T12:28:29Z wasamasa: jusss: no
2016-04-09T12:28:39Z wasamasa: I considered using it, but went for CHICKEN instead
2016-04-09T12:29:36Z jusss: can chicken detect network disconncting when your router power off? it will get something or nothing?
2016-04-09T12:29:52Z jusss: in python or C, it will get a empty string ""
2016-04-09T12:30:08Z wasamasa: I'm not sure what that got to do with the programming language
2016-04-09T12:30:10Z jusss: but I tried racket, and I get nothing...
2016-04-09T12:30:20Z wasamasa: what exactly are you speaking of?
2016-04-09T12:30:52Z wasamasa: detecting a temporal network connectivity problem is generally tricky
2016-04-09T12:32:23Z jusss: for example, my racket script have a connection with mail server, and my router power off, and my racket script should read something? if I use python or C I should read a empty string ""
2016-04-09T12:32:54Z wasamasa: I'd expect to get an exception/timeout
2016-04-09T12:33:09Z wasamasa: reading anything in that situation is wrong
2016-04-09T12:33:17Z jusss: yes, that will case a exception
2016-04-09T12:33:19Z wasamasa: unless you actively ignore exceptions I guess...
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2016-04-09T12:34:11Z jusss: wasamasa: but what if mail server suddently power off and don't give you a exit signal, what you will read? in python or C it's empty string ""
2016-04-09T12:34:42Z jusss: but in racket or other scheme implement, I don't know what they will get
2016-04-09T12:34:47Z wasamasa: ...
2016-04-09T12:34:58Z wasamasa: this is exceptional behaviour, expecting to read anything is foolish at best
2016-04-09T12:35:42Z wasamasa: no, I'd expect to get feedback that something went wrong
2016-04-09T12:36:04Z jusss: scheme do handle exceptions?
2016-04-09T12:36:15Z wasamasa: CHICKEN has an exception system
2016-04-09T12:36:27Z wasamasa: in C you'd do error handling by checking return codes
2016-04-09T12:36:43Z jusss: yes -1 or other things
2016-04-09T12:37:01Z jusss: python is ""
2016-04-09T12:37:21Z wasamasa: I have a hard time believing that, given how prevalent exceptions in python are
2016-04-09T12:37:48Z wasamasa: well, unless the library you're speaking of is no good
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2016-04-09T12:39:22Z wasamasa: racket appears to have exceptions as well
2016-04-09T12:41:25Z jusss: there're too many exceptions you can catch in python, it's really easy to do something
2016-04-09T12:42:05Z jusss: python's string spice is really good stuff, I think
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2016-04-10T01:50:49Z JoshS: I have a question about macros
2016-04-10T01:50:57Z JoshS: are they processed from inside to out?
2016-04-10T01:51:27Z JoshS: It seems that having macros never see an unprocessed macro inside it would be a good property.
2016-04-10T01:51:39Z JoshS: processing right to left would do it.
2016-04-10T01:52:00Z Riastradh: Nope.  Outside in.
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2016-04-10T02:00:00Z JoshS: has anyone ever done outside in?
2016-04-10T02:00:21Z JoshS: or right first
2016-04-10T02:00:47Z JoshS: I mean
2016-04-10T02:00:55Z JoshS: has anyone ever done inside out?
2016-04-10T02:03:53Z pierpa: I can see only disadvantages in doing that. Why do you want this?
2016-04-10T02:04:18Z JoshS: It just seems cleaner to me
2016-04-10T02:04:28Z JoshS: that no macro ever sees a macro inside it
2016-04-10T02:04:33Z JoshS: it's for a new language
2016-04-10T02:04:33Z pierpa: on the contrary
2016-04-10T02:04:56Z JoshS: so the language a macro sees is a smaller language
2016-04-10T02:04:59Z JoshS: fully expanded
2016-04-10T02:05:02Z pierpa: when a macro sees a macro inside it can expand it or do whatever it likes
2016-04-10T02:05:16Z JoshS: yeah but since people invent new macros
2016-04-10T02:05:20Z pierpa: if it doesn't see it, then it doesn't see it.
2016-04-10T02:05:24Z JoshS: in theory they might have to change the old macros
2016-04-10T02:05:27Z JoshS: to keep them working
2016-04-10T02:05:30Z pierpa: no
2016-04-10T02:05:43Z JoshS: do you see the possible issue?
2016-04-10T02:05:49Z pierpa: no
2016-04-10T02:06:22Z JoshS: lets say that a an old macro works on "if"
2016-04-10T02:06:29Z JoshS: the language has no cons
2016-04-10T02:06:36Z JoshS: then you add cons as a macro
2016-04-10T02:06:42Z JoshS: the old macro is now broken
2016-04-10T02:06:47Z pierpa: what do you mean "works on if"
2016-04-10T02:06:51Z JoshS: because it doesn't know what an if is
2016-04-10T02:06:59Z JoshS: it transforms if statements inside it
2016-04-10T02:07:37Z JoshS: That's just a theoretical example
2016-04-10T02:08:21Z pierpa: why adding a new macro should break the old one?
2016-04-10T02:08:40Z JoshS: because the old one thought it could recogize if expressions
2016-04-10T02:08:50Z JoshS: but now if expressions are hidden in a new macro
2016-04-10T02:08:54Z pierpa: and why then it can't anymore
2016-04-10T02:09:11Z JoshS: because the if is now a cons that hasn't been expanded to if yet
2016-04-10T02:09:18Z JoshS: I mean a cond
2016-04-10T02:09:20Z JoshS: I'm tired
2016-04-10T02:09:35Z pierpa: then the old macros was broken from the start
2016-04-10T02:09:39Z pierpa: *macro
2016-04-10T02:09:43Z JoshS: no never mind
2016-04-10T02:10:04Z JoshS: I've convinced myself that I'm right
2016-04-10T02:10:09Z JoshS: that inside out makes more sense
2016-04-10T02:10:51Z JoshS: like code walking, it's better to process the restricted language except for the current macro
2016-04-10T02:10:56Z pierpa: then create a prototype implementation and try writing some real programs with it
2016-04-10T02:11:05Z JoshS: I am...
2016-04-10T02:11:09Z pierpa: ok
2016-04-10T02:11:35Z JoshS: that's why I asked, because I thought I read someone else give that argument
2016-04-10T02:11:41Z JoshS: about how macros should expand
2016-04-10T02:11:42Z pierpa: ok
2016-04-10T02:11:47Z JoshS: I thought it might be in the literature
2016-04-10T02:12:21Z Riastradh: JoshS: In Common Lisp there are macros, outside-in, and compiler macros, which apply in (if I recall correctly) an unspecified order but after macro expansion on a more basic input language.
2016-04-10T02:12:48Z JoshS: ok
2016-04-10T02:12:50Z JoshS: yeah
2016-04-10T02:13:43Z pierpa: btw, how do you expand inside out, if you don't have the inside until you don't expand the out?
2016-04-10T02:14:01Z JoshS: You can do right to left scanning
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2016-04-10T02:14:10Z pierpa: you expand an "inside" macro
2016-04-10T02:14:10Z JoshS: on macros that match left to right
2016-04-10T02:14:18Z JoshS: since lisp is prefix
2016-04-10T02:14:19Z pierpa: then you expand an external macro
2016-04-10T02:14:20Z JoshS: that will work
2016-04-10T02:14:30Z JoshS: you expand a right most one.
2016-04-10T02:14:31Z pierpa: the external macro generates completely different code
2016-04-10T02:14:41Z JoshS: rightmost inside
2016-04-10T02:14:55Z pierpa: (macro1 ..... (macro2 ...))
2016-04-10T02:14:59Z pierpa: you expand macro2
2016-04-10T02:15:01Z JoshS: the external one should not expect to see macros in it
2016-04-10T02:15:09Z JoshS: because it never will
2016-04-10T02:15:10Z pierpa: then later you expand macro1
2016-04-10T02:15:21Z pierpa: macro1 expands to 42
2016-04-10T02:15:28Z JoshS: I guess it's a different model
2016-04-10T02:15:41Z JoshS: It feels more stable to me
2016-04-10T02:16:03Z pierpa: it feels more nonsensical to me
2016-04-10T02:16:12Z JoshS: ok, as I said, never mind
2016-04-10T02:16:18Z pierpa: oki
2016-04-10T02:17:22Z JoshS: maybe I'll start a post asking that question on LTU
2016-04-10T02:22:00Z JoshS: isn't this similar to normal order evaluation
2016-04-10T02:22:28Z JoshS: as opposed to applicative-order
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2016-04-10T02:38:02Z mejja:  A month in the laboratory can often save an hour in the library..
2016-04-10T02:38:28Z JoshS: lol
2016-04-10T02:39:03Z mejja: JoshS:  ==> http://library.readscheme.org/page3.html
2016-04-10T02:39:15Z JoshS: I'm thinking of movie villins in the laboritory
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2016-04-10T02:39:18Z JoshS: dr. evil
2016-04-10T02:39:25Z JoshS: EVIL computer language?
2016-04-10T02:45:16Z JoshS: One last argument
2016-04-10T02:45:18Z JoshS: <JoshS> I have a language with no macros
2016-04-10T02:45:18Z JoshS: <JoshS> call it language A
2016-04-10T02:45:18Z JoshS: <JoshS> I add a macro b to it
2016-04-10T02:45:18Z JoshS: <JoshS> now it's language B
2016-04-10T02:45:18Z JoshS: <JoshS> I add another macro to it
2016-04-10T02:45:19Z JoshS: <JoshS> now it's language C
2016-04-10T02:45:21Z JoshS: <JoshS> but macro b was written for language A or B
2016-04-10T02:45:23Z JoshS: <JoshS> not for C
2016-04-10T02:45:25Z JoshS: <JoshS> It can't recognize the new construct
2016-04-10T02:45:27Z JoshS: <JoshS> but if macros are evaluate inside out
2016-04-10T02:45:31Z JoshS: <JoshS> then all macros ONLY see language A
2016-04-10T02:45:33Z JoshS: <JoshS> Is that clear?
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2016-04-10T03:25:57Z mejja: The lack of interest, the disdain for history is what makes computing not-quite-a-field. -- Alan Kay
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2016-04-11T16:17:10Z jcowan: ho what
2016-04-11T16:18:44Z jcowan: Anyone feel like writing a string-split function a la Perl/Python? Spec in SRFI 130; it's the only one I don't have an implementation for yet.
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2016-04-11T16:22:57Z robinr: hmmm, i've asked on reddit some while ago. I wondered whats up with the progress on r7rs (large). is there still development, does it linger in some unknown zombiestate or has it been cancelled? quite some time passed since 2013 (r7rs small)
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2016-04-11T16:35:31Z jcowan: I don't follow reddit, but a precis is that I have two more SRFIs to release, and then I'll call for a vote on the first tranche of R7RS-large SRFIs, up or down.
2016-04-11T16:35:32Z ecraven: robinr: quite some progress as srfis
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2016-04-11T17:01:44Z robinr: ecraven: oh, so they develop the srfis and then define r7rs large as collection of them?
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2016-04-11T17:05:26Z jcowan: robinr: Just so
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2016-04-11T17:05:55Z jcowan: plus another thing or two here and there, e.g. R7RS-large will require support for bignums, ratios, and inexact complex numbers.
2016-04-11T17:07:19Z leppie: wow up to SRFI-130, need to catch up :D
2016-04-11T17:08:06Z jcowan: Hey, leppie
2016-04-11T17:08:48Z jcowan: Been wanting to ask you, as the last Scheme standing on the CLR is there any chance that you would adopt Javadot notation?  Common Larceny is basically abandoned, and Javadot only sorta works on it.
2016-04-11T17:10:26Z leppie: jcowan: In which way? 1) (. Foo blah) 2) (foo . blah . bar) 3) (foo.blah)
2016-04-11T17:10:37Z jcowan: the third
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2016-04-11T17:11:15Z jcowan: details at http://jscheme.sourceforge.net/jscheme/doc/javadot.html in a handy table (you can ignore the stuff about private methods AFAIC)
2016-04-11T17:11:41Z leppie: That is just syntax. I already do something similar (but in proper syntax, using ::, = and -> )
2016-04-11T17:11:43Z jcowan: so .foo for instance method, Class.foo for static method, etc.
2016-04-11T17:11:50Z jcowan: Yes, just syntax
2016-04-11T17:12:10Z leppie: .foo would be invalid lexially, no?
2016-04-11T17:12:29Z jcowan: Yes.  It just means that it is bound specially at top level
2016-04-11T17:12:43Z jcowan: to a method object or method-name object or wevs
2016-04-11T17:13:34Z leppie: I dont deviate much from R6RS lexical spec except for sybols allowing [] at the end (to specify array type)
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2016-04-11T17:15:29Z leppie: jcowan: closest I have is: https://xacc.wordpress.com/2009/08/21/ironscheme-clr-shorthand/ . That simply makes a variable syntactic to allow those
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2016-04-11T17:16:58Z jcowan: In Common Larceny they are macros, and in JScheme they are variables, but in either case can be rebound lexically
2016-04-11T17:17:38Z leppie: It is a macro unless used as a variable (aka identifier-syntax)
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2016-04-11T17:18:47Z leppie: (actually the lat noted rule does not make sense, neither does the 3rd last one
2016-04-11T17:18:49Z leppie: )
2016-04-11T17:18:56Z leppie: s/lat/last/
2016-04-11T17:19:26Z leppie: I dont really use it, but it is helpful for newbies
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2016-04-11T17:20:28Z robinr: jcowan: thanks!
2016-04-11T17:20:50Z leppie: Impl here: https://github.com/leppie/IronScheme/blob/master/IronScheme/IronScheme.Console/lib/ironscheme/clr/shorthand.sls
2016-04-11T17:21:18Z leppie: and https://github.com/leppie/IronScheme/blob/master/IronScheme/IronScheme.Console/lib/ironscheme/clr/shorthand-helper.sls
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2016-04-11T19:20:52Z cisstrd: looking for some scheme examples as close to real life use as possible at the same time relatively "simple", even better if with explanation
2016-04-11T19:21:06Z cisstrd: thankful for ideas
2016-04-11T19:21:57Z robinr: fibonacci is not reallife I guess :)
2016-04-11T19:22:16Z cisstrd: and gcd is neither ;)
2016-04-11T19:22:36Z cisstrd: I found this one so far: https://classes.soe.ucsc.edu/cmps112/Spring03/languages/scheme/SchemeTutorialA.html the example at the end, the small checkbook program
2016-04-11T19:22:58Z pierpa: here's a real life computation in scheme: (* 1.12 22)
2016-04-11T19:23:09Z pierpa: I needed this result a couple of miuntes ago
2016-04-11T19:23:54Z cisstrd: :D
2016-04-11T19:25:01Z pierpa: (that's a currency conversion. So it's an example in the field of international finance)
2016-04-11T19:25:32Z robinr: shockingly I wrote more reallife code in haskell than in scheme
2016-04-11T19:26:18Z cisstrd: pierpa: euro to usd? ;)
2016-04-11T19:26:25Z pierpa: yeah
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2016-04-11T19:26:50Z cisstrd: pierpa: you know google can do that too
2016-04-11T19:26:51Z robinr: I would love to see some database accessing code in scheme
2016-04-11T19:26:55Z cisstrd: and automatically uses current ratio
2016-04-11T19:27:03Z robinr: that would be as reallife as it could get
2016-04-11T19:27:13Z pierpa: yes I know, but I was already typing to a scheme listener
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2016-04-11T19:30:15Z robinr: cisstrd: look for example code of some database interface for scheme
2016-04-11T19:30:19Z cisstrd: robinr: out of interest, how would compare scheme and haskell?
2016-04-11T19:30:29Z cisstrd: *would you
2016-04-11T19:31:35Z qu1j0t3: cisstrd: Haskell is pure; Scheme only "encourages" purity. Haskell is lazy evaluation, Scheme is strict. Haskell is type checked and has a sophisticated type system. Scheme is dynamically typed. And so on. By far the best way to understand the differences is to study them both.
2016-04-11T19:31:47Z pierpa: robinr: racket comes with a builtin interface to sqlite, postgresql, and mysql. As far as i see they are used routinely. Certainly I use it a lot. Racket include sqlite in its distribution too, so there's 0 setup.
2016-04-11T19:32:09Z robinr: cisstrd: haskell is much more academic than scheme is. it felt like it completly lost contact with the world. while scheme tried hard to get from academic to real world and was mostly successful (see guile).
2016-04-11T19:32:38Z jcowan: Well, for small values of "real"
2016-04-11T19:32:56Z jcowan: I would say that Racket is excellent for fake-world programming
2016-04-11T19:33:11Z jcowan: that is, you could do real-world programming in it, but nobody in the real world actually does
2016-04-11T19:33:34Z davexunit: Guix is a good example of a real-world tool that is written in Scheme.
2016-04-11T19:33:43Z robinr: thats a bummer, the homepage looked so "real" to me. I thought it was more common.
2016-04-11T19:34:06Z wasamasa: well, it's pretty obvious that racket is a teaching utility
2016-04-11T19:34:18Z robinr: scheme was/is too
2016-04-11T19:34:26Z wasamasa: not in general :P
2016-04-11T19:34:35Z wasamasa: I wouldn't recommend a beginner to start of with CHICKEN
2016-04-11T19:34:41Z robinr: lol
2016-04-11T19:35:21Z robinr: I would recommend python to a beginner, so he gets a bit more real world code working quickly. like grabbing erotic pictures from the web.
2016-04-11T19:35:29Z robinr: that motivates
2016-04-11T19:35:46Z wasamasa: lol
2016-04-11T19:36:31Z robinr: but i never coded pythoin myself. i would love to, as the library of modules is nearly as huge and useful as Perls. but python just does not resonate with me.
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2016-04-11T19:37:31Z wasamasa: you could try ruby instead
2016-04-11T19:38:02Z robinr: oh heavens no
2016-04-11T19:38:13Z robinr: but the syntax is nicer, I agree
2016-04-11T19:38:32Z wasamasa: it's like a modern perl :P
2016-04-11T19:38:47Z davexunit: ruby has a very complicated syntax
2016-04-11T19:38:50Z jcowan: Also just thiunk how much energies we spend shitting on one another's tools, which inevitably means "on one another".
2016-04-11T19:39:02Z robinr: wasamasa: oh, Perl 6 evangelists would disagree so violently
2016-04-11T19:39:16Z davexunit: I think Scheme is a great teaching tool
2016-04-11T19:39:18Z wasamasa: robinr: well, I've yet to find any
2016-04-11T19:39:29Z jcowan: "Your problem is that you used a rip saw on that project, and rip saws always lead to unreliable furniture: just look at these stats!"
2016-04-11T19:39:43Z robinr: :)
2016-04-11T19:41:36Z jcowan: :(
2016-04-11T19:41:41Z robinr: jcowan: I'm certainly not shitting - at least not in a "that tool is generally bad" sense. at least I try hard. It's a matter of taste usually.
2016-04-11T19:41:47Z jcowan nods.
2016-04-11T19:42:01Z jcowan: Actually, that was a ww post that just happened to end up here, wasn't meant to refer to you at all.
2016-04-11T19:42:23Z robinr: jcowan: ok :)
2016-04-11T19:42:25Z jcowan copies and pastes
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2016-04-12T03:39:46Z anomie__: Can I see an ffi hello-world example in r7rs scheme?
2016-04-12T03:39:54Z anomie__: Or does that depend on implementation?
2016-04-12T03:40:58Z evhan: anomie__: An FFI? The second thing.
2016-04-12T03:42:42Z anomie__: Ah, man...
2016-04-12T03:43:17Z anomie__: You think there's someone kind enough here to supervise my first scheme project?
2016-04-12T03:43:57Z anomie__: I'll be using chibi scheme.
2016-04-12T03:47:48Z evhan: anomie__: I'd suggest just asking questions as you have them and folks will answer as they can. Chibi's author is sometimes in here, for example. Goes by the name foof`.
2016-04-12T03:49:05Z anomie__: Oh, awesome.
2016-04-12T03:55:35Z anomie__: I guess I should probably get more familiar with scheme before addressing chibi-specific stuff.
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2016-04-12T04:08:21Z aeth: anomie__: For chibi-scheme, read the r7rs small PDF if you haven't already. It's tiny. Additions to and differences with r7rs-small is probably the easiest way to learn chibi in particular, since it was the first r7rs afaik
2016-04-12T04:11:09Z aeth: r7rs-small is way smaller than you might think (if you think it contains a FFI), and doesn't even have hash tables!
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2016-04-12T04:16:07Z aeth: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/raw-attachment/wiki/WikiStart/r7rs.pdf
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2016-04-12T07:55:56Z mjuhl: Hey - I'm trying to install Chez Scheme on a Macbook Pro Retina, MacOSX (El Capitan) - I really can't get it to work. Does it make sense that I should download "Chez Scheme and Petite Chez Scheme for Intel/AMD Linux." and then install it via Tarballing?
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2016-04-12T08:10:16Z ecraven: well, as OS X is not Linux, this probably won't work?
2016-04-12T08:12:22Z mjuhl: The problem is this: MacOS X 10.11 (El Capitan) and later: The package installer attempts to place the (Petite) Chez Scheme executable in /usr/bin and the library directory in /usr/lib, which are not writable even by root. To install (Petite) Chez Scheme you must instead use the tarball and follow the tarball instructions below
2016-04-12T08:12:59Z mjuhl: However, if I download a MacOS X version it is a tar.gz, but it is unpacked to a .pkg
2016-04-12T08:13:24Z mjuhl: Which doesn't include .configure when I unpack the .pkg
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2016-04-12T13:43:49Z Riastradh: mjuhl: Best to ask the creators of Chez for help -- this IRC network is about free software, which neither OS X nor Chez is.
2016-04-12T13:44:08Z Riastradh: mjuhl: Alternatively, you could use any of a wide variety of free software Scheme systems instead.
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2016-04-12T14:43:29Z qu1j0t3: mjuhl: apparently it can be installed through Homebrew (e.g. http://macappstore.org/petite-chez-scheme/ )
2016-04-12T14:43:44Z qu1j0t3 hasn't tried
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2016-04-12T15:11:53Z davexunit: there are so many Schemes that respect your freedom, choose one of those instead.
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2016-04-12T17:36:55Z floor13: going through SICP rn, at streams from chapter 3. I'm interested in getting a job as a SE, and bought cracking the coding interview as advised by recruiters. I want to start applying in August, but I'm worried I might not have time to finish SICP and go through a good amount of the big green book as well. Should I switch over to the coding interview book? I know how to program in python, java, and scheme, and
2016-04-12T17:36:57Z floor13: know how to use git.
2016-04-12T17:37:38Z pjb: You seem to have some good bases.
2016-04-12T17:38:03Z pjb: I'd tend say, continue with sicp.
2016-04-12T17:38:34Z pjb: You can read "Cracking the Coding Interview" more leisurely, IMO.
2016-04-12T17:39:09Z floor13: well the first 50 pages were pretty much interviewing advice and a review of big O
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2016-04-12T17:40:16Z floor13: just worried I'm missing big things that most CS people know
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2016-04-12T17:42:54Z pjb: floor13: don't worry, you'll be missing a lot of big things.
2016-04-12T17:43:05Z ecraven: floor13: there will always be things you don't know, show that you are willing and able to learn them
2016-04-12T17:43:29Z ecraven: if you know those three languages well, you're probably better than many :)
2016-04-12T17:45:15Z floor13: lol, alright. is there a good resource you guys know of that goes over data structures in depth?
2016-04-12T17:45:24Z JuanDaugherty: geez glad I don't have to deal with that shit any more
2016-04-12T17:45:36Z leppie: JuanDaugherty :D
2016-04-12T17:46:25Z leppie: now we 'only' need to deal with messy databases and soiled repos
2016-04-12T17:46:41Z ecraven: floor13: the usual data structure books?
2016-04-12T17:47:00Z JuanDaugherty: love my work, hate the creep stupes in the snake pit deal
2016-04-12T17:48:14Z ecraven: floor13: I liked the parts of Introduction to Algorithms that I read :) Sedgewick isn't too bad either
2016-04-12T17:48:25Z floor13: ecraven: ideally an online resource that is quicker to digest then a book is
2016-04-12T17:49:19Z floor13: okay I'll look at both of those, although I have heard about the reference like nature of intro to algorithms
2016-04-12T17:49:31Z ecraven: yea, that depends on what you want
2016-04-12T17:50:07Z ecraven: for understanding the data structures, implement them in one or more of your languages
2016-04-12T17:51:29Z floor13: ecraven: alright, sounds like a good plan. thanks for fielding the offtopic-ish questions
2016-04-12T17:51:55Z ecraven: just my two pence, basically find anything you like to read, and implement it :)
2016-04-12T17:52:47Z leppie: and dont worry about failing, as long as you get it right and learn something
2016-04-12T17:54:11Z floor13: aw that's motivating. thanks!
2016-04-12T17:54:56Z ecraven: also, in the interview, ask questions about them, to find out whether you actually want to work there :) you're the one choosing them as much as they are choosing you
2016-04-12T17:56:51Z pjb: And beware, often they tell you what they would like as work environment, not what they actually have :-)   If you see a ping-pong table in a cool rest room, wonder how often it is actually used.
2016-04-12T17:58:10Z floor13: yeah i heard the same thing about the slides some tech companies like showcasing
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2016-04-12T17:59:22Z floor13: you guys are sweet. thanks for the advice.
2016-04-12T18:00:11Z leppie: I got asked to implement a ping pong scoreboard in a whiteboard interview
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2016-04-12T18:03:53Z pjb: It's a nice assignment.
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2016-04-12T18:06:25Z floor13: did you have to do the UI?
2016-04-12T18:06:49Z pjb: Still nice.
2016-04-12T18:06:59Z leppie: full stack
2016-04-12T18:07:22Z ecraven: hehe, I just googled "ping pong scoreboard", thinking "this must be some new SCRUM agile buzzword thing"
2016-04-12T18:07:26Z leppie: I messed up though, always go simple
2016-04-12T18:07:48Z leppie: clarify requirements
2016-04-12T18:09:21Z leppie: ecraven: sounds like story estimate guessing (> random(6))
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2016-04-13T10:27:36Z mjuhl: qu1j0t3: didn't work either. had to ssh to a linux terminal, and installed it on that instead, thanks for the help and also Riastradh thanks:)
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2016-04-13T12:15:34Z mg_: Hi! Does anyone know of a testsuite for testing scheme implementations' adherence to the standard? Like everything from the basics to more edge cases of specific r{5,6,7}rs standards. I'm writing a hobby implementation for learning, and I'd love to be able to track progress that way...
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2016-04-13T12:42:49Z taylan: mg_: Kawa includes an R7RS test suite
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2016-04-13T13:01:19Z mg_: taylan: thanks!
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2016-04-13T13:57:48Z robinr: taylan: thanks, was one of my outstanding problems too :)
2016-04-13T14:02:25Z z0d: is 2.1.x the unstable line for Guile?
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2016-04-13T14:08:20Z robinr: "Development releases of Guile are given odd minor version numbers"
2016-04-13T14:08:28Z robinr: http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/download/#releases
2016-04-13T14:08:42Z robinr:     The latest release of Guile's 2.0.x series is 2.0.11
2016-04-13T14:08:43Z robinr:     The latest release of Guile's legacy 1.8.x series is 1.8.8
2016-04-13T14:09:16Z taylan: z0d: yeah, it will be released as 2.2.  there's some preview versions out already...
2016-04-13T14:10:35Z z0d: thanks
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2016-04-14T01:26:36Z floor13: I want to do a procedure until I hit a key. I've tried (while (= (readline) `q) (lambda () ...)), but I get that readline is not reentrant. is there any other control mechanism I can use?
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2016-04-14T01:55:26Z cojy: floor13: you'd have to start a new thread for one of the two
2016-04-14T01:56:42Z cojy: a loop that checks for the key you want and a loop that executes the function over and over
2016-04-14T01:57:31Z floor13: and then once the key I want is pressed I can break the loop?
2016-04-14T01:57:54Z floor13: what about input ports?
2016-04-14T01:58:04Z cojy: ys by either having a check for a piece of state you set or by killing the thread directly
2016-04-14T01:58:37Z cojy: oh you could do a nonblocking read
2016-04-14T01:59:13Z floor13: yeah! I saw a proc like that on this site for common lisp, but don't know the equivalent http://www.tutorialspoint.com/lisp/lisp_input_output.htm
2016-04-14T01:59:22Z floor13: read-char-no-hang
2016-04-14T01:59:22Z cojy: (char-ready?)  will let you do a nonblocking check for a character
2016-04-14T01:59:41Z cojy: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Reading.html
2016-04-14T01:59:42Z cojy: and peek-char
2016-04-14T01:59:46Z floor13: I've tried that. I don't think I'm doing it quite right. I can pastebin the code.
2016-04-14T01:59:55Z cojy: sure
2016-04-14T02:00:04Z cojy: i know your equality check is wrong at least
2016-04-14T02:00:43Z cojy: hmm peek-char hangs have to check with char-ready
2016-04-14T02:00:48Z floor13: oh yeah, = is for numbers.
2016-04-14T02:01:46Z floor13: http://pastebin.com/G7RbA9p8
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2016-04-14T02:05:11Z floor13: whoops, that doesn't work at all, replace standard-input-port with current-input-port . standard-input-port generates a new port each time you call it
2016-04-14T02:09:01Z floor13: Got it! standard input port works, you just have to assign it to something instead of calling it directly (i guess ports don't fit within the functional paradigm)
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2016-04-14T14:37:05Z jcowan: hey ho hey
2016-04-14T14:37:14Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: o/
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2016-04-14T14:48:32Z jcowan: looks like discussion leading up to a vote on the first tranche of R7RS-large SRFIs will begin at the beginning of May
2016-04-14T14:48:36Z jcowan: the end of the beginning is in sight!
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2016-04-14T19:47:39Z mjreed: Howdy.  Have some Scheme code originally written to run in guile, later moved to racket, just tried it in scheme48 and found out some of the functions I’m using aren’t part of R5RS.   What would be the best way to find the standard equivalents for such things?  For example make-list - easy to write my own implementation, but wondering what ’s the idiomatic way of creating a list of N copies of something in standard scheme..
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2016-04-14T19:48:47Z Kooda: Isn’t make-list part of srfi-1?
2016-04-14T19:49:13Z Kooda: It is! http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#make-list
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2016-04-14T19:54:26Z mjreed: … and scheme48 does include an implementatin of srfi-1, it just has to be loaded explicitly.  All-righty, then.  Thanks!
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2016-04-14T20:13:12Z Kooda: mjreed: glad it works :)
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2016-04-14T20:24:07Z jcowan: If only there were a standard way to load non-standard code ....
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2016-04-14T20:25:47Z mjreed: yeah.  ,open srfi-1   is awfully scheme48-specific.
2016-04-14T20:26:26Z jcowan: We have use/require-extension and ,open and import and require and ....
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2016-04-14T21:09:11Z Kooda: jcowan: hopefully we have R7RS ;)
2016-04-14T21:09:34Z jcowan: Well, we do have a fair number of R7RS implementations in flight
2016-04-14T21:09:47Z jcowan: and some that Just Work
2016-04-14T21:09:54Z Kooda: ^^
2016-04-14T21:11:07Z jcowan: I just prepared the R7RS ballot as a Google Form
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2016-04-14T21:18:28Z davexunit: do google forms require running proprietary JavaScript? if so, then something else should be used.
2016-04-14T21:24:51Z jcowan: You can send mail to the mailing list, or send mail to me, or in extremis throw your ballot in a bottle and throw it in the ocean
2016-04-14T21:25:26Z jcowan: I mean, why does RMS never complain about sending mail to people with gmail.com addresses?  (Or does he?)
2016-04-14T21:25:40Z jcowan: Surely he's using proprietary software to communicate with them.
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2016-04-14T21:32:37Z Riastradh: jcowan: I'm sure he would advise against your use of Gmail if you asked him.  But it doesn't require him to use proprietary software any more than writing a letter on paper to you requires him to run your proprietary brain.
2016-04-14T21:35:12Z jcowan: I suppose that depends on how long a spoon you insist on when you sup with the devil.  His exterior border gateway is probably running proprietary software or firmware too.
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2016-04-14T22:22:49Z davexunit: this is missing the point.
2016-04-14T22:23:09Z davexunit: no one has to use proprietary software to send an email
2016-04-14T22:23:43Z davexunit: but does one have to use proprietary software to fill out a Google form?
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2016-04-14T22:47:16Z jcowan: davexunit: Yes, you do, but as I say there are alternatives.
2016-04-14T22:48:01Z jcowan: But people don't send emails just to be sending them, they send in order to communicate with specific other people, some of whom may well be using proprietary, so sending to them involves the execution of proprietary software.  Whoever wills the end, wills the means.
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2016-04-14T23:22:53Z davexunit: again, missing the point.
2016-04-14T23:23:16Z davexunit: the sender of the email isn't using proprietary software.
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2016-04-14T23:33:12Z davexunit: anyway, as long as their is an alternative that doesn't involve nonfree software, we're good.
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2016-04-15T14:10:13Z turtleman: could you say scheme allows hot-swapping with the "load" procedure?
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2016-04-15T14:10:39Z turtleman: i am trying to better understand what it means to allow hot swapping
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2016-04-15T14:12:49Z turtleman: e.g. if you always loaded a procedure before executing it
2016-04-15T14:12:51Z turtleman: or something like that
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2016-04-15T14:17:41Z Kooda: turtleman: it does :)  It also means that the behaviour of a program can change after loading some new code.
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2016-04-15T15:17:57Z BW^-: What Scheme interpreters are written in Scheme?
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2016-04-15T15:18:25Z BW^-: Preferably something with a function to serialize the whole execution to a persistent structure
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2016-04-15T15:22:51Z Kooda: BW^-: CHICKEN with the `s11n` library can do that.
2016-04-15T15:23:07Z Kooda: I don’t know much about other implementations, sorry.
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2016-04-15T15:55:17Z BW^-: Kooda: I want a whole Scheme environment implemented in Scheme! :o
2016-04-15T15:55:33Z Kooda: Most of CHICKEN is in scheme.
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2016-04-15T15:55:48Z Kooda: Only parts of the runtime isn’t.
2016-04-15T15:55:54Z Kooda: aren’t*
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2016-04-15T15:59:08Z BW^-: mhm
2016-04-15T15:59:57Z Kooda: Ah, there is Grass, which is a scheme interpreter implemented in scheme.
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2016-04-15T16:38:01Z BW^-: Kooda: cool! :)
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2016-04-15T16:38:43Z BW^-: Kooda: URL?
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2016-04-15T16:40:28Z Kooda: http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/grass.tar.gz
2016-04-15T16:42:44Z BW^-: Kooda: Cool!! :))
2016-04-15T16:44:03Z BW^-: Kooda: Grass does not do any CPS internally?
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2016-04-16T03:38:37Z BW^-: Schemes implemented as a transformer atop of Scheme, to implement an own heap and continuation frames,
2016-04-16T03:38:38Z BW^-: any?
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2016-04-16T11:30:52Z adrien2: Using Symfony's CRUD generator, my "edit" page generates over 10 000 queries because of the various relationships. How do I solve this?
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2016-04-16T11:34:30Z wasamasa: do you plan on solving this with scheme?
2016-04-16T11:34:44Z adrien2: wrong channel sorry
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2016-04-16T11:36:40Z wasamasa: :D
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2016-04-16T16:09:29Z mg__: I'm reading the r7rs spec, and the definition of a program. In the grammar it says that a program is like so: <program> -> <import declaration>+ <command or definition>+ . Why is at least one import required?
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2016-04-16T16:19:18Z lambda-11235: mg__: "The initial environment of a program is empty, so at least one import declaration is needed to introduce initial bindings."
2016-04-16T16:23:52Z mg__: lambda-11235: I see. So e.g. "define" is only available after being loaded from (scheme core)?
2016-04-16T16:24:37Z lambda-11235: mg__: I believe so, but I'm not sure.
2016-04-16T16:25:35Z mg__: lambda-11235: thanks. That's kind of irritating from an implementation perspective though, everything has to be a function call
2016-04-16T16:34:51Z wasamasa: that doesn't sound quite right :D
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2016-04-16T18:34:57Z mg__: wasamasa: well no, but it makes my implementation less clean that they are not available by default :(
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2016-04-16T18:54:09Z premysl: Hm.
2016-04-16T18:54:20Z premysl: Is there a way to create a "safe" environment?
2016-04-16T18:54:25Z premysl: For eval.
2016-04-16T18:54:31Z premysl: I'm not sure how this thing works so far.
2016-04-16T18:55:02Z premysl: But let's say I want to specify exactly which procedures I want it to have.
2016-04-16T18:55:15Z premysl: And the syntax definitions.
2016-04-16T18:55:23Z premysl: So that no one can import anything else from there.
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2016-04-16T19:07:05Z premysl: Hm, okay, this is one of the most complicated parts of r6rs.
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2016-04-17T03:07:52Z xieyuheng: where can I learn the semantic of macro expansion of syntax-rules ?
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2016-04-17T03:16:23Z mejja: xieyuheng: http://community.schemewiki.org/?syntax-rules
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2016-04-17T11:05:52Z arya123: hello i am learning scheme. i saw a command set-cdr! and set-car! but i did not understand their purpose.Can anyone help me?
2016-04-17T11:06:36Z jackdaniel: arya123: cons is one of the data structures supported natively by scheme. each cons is composed of two pointers (car and cdr for historical reasons)
2016-04-17T11:06:54Z jackdaniel: set-car! and set-cdr! modify what the corresponding pointers point to
2016-04-17T11:08:04Z arya123: first of all thank you for your answer.i know car and cdr commands.so set-car! means make an element first element in list ?
2016-04-17T11:08:23Z jackdaniel: yes
2016-04-17T11:08:40Z arya123: or don't.beacuse of ! i did not understand whether it is positive or negative
2016-04-17T11:09:07Z jackdaniel: "!" is a convention which indicates, that this function modifies accessed object
2016-04-17T11:09:12Z jackdaniel: it has so-called "side-effects"
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2016-04-17T11:09:29Z jackdaniel: many functions just return their result without modifying object passed as an argument
2016-04-17T11:10:06Z jackdaniel: for people who are into functional programming it's a very valuable information
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2016-04-17T11:13:35Z arya123: jackdaniel i have a code like this.i wrote what i understand from code.could you check it please
2016-04-17T11:13:37Z arya123: http://paste.lisp.org/display/313753
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2016-04-17T11:16:40Z jackdaniel: why do you modify s?
2016-04-17T11:17:11Z jackdaniel: (set-cdr! s r) will modify the second pointer in the cons s and set it to the empty list
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2016-04-17T11:18:50Z jackdaniel: I think I don't get this code, but I'm not a schemer
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2016-04-17T11:19:44Z arya123: jackdaniel i did not write this code.found from somewhere
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2016-04-17T11:20:10Z jackdaniel: if scheme has "normal" reverse function, then I'd just (set! a (reverse a))
2016-04-17T11:25:54Z wasamasa: arya123: welcome to recursion
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2016-04-17T11:26:22Z wasamasa: arya123: in scheme one recurses to iterate and the named let is a construct to make that a bit simpler to express
2016-04-17T11:26:51Z wasamasa: arya123: so what happens in that line with loop is that execution jumps into the "let loop" line, but with updated values
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2016-04-17T20:50:17Z garietyxxx: Is there an implementation which abides heavily by the 1.5 manual?
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2016-04-17T21:13:11Z Kooda: What’s the 1.5 manual?
2016-04-17T21:14:02Z wasamasa: we'll never know
2016-04-17T21:14:09Z wasamasa: maybe they mean LISP 1.5?
2016-04-17T21:15:00Z Kooda: Yeah, probably
2016-04-17T21:15:29Z wasamasa: nothing like any lisp dialect in use today :P
2016-04-17T21:16:17Z aeth: You can probably run it on some emulator somewhere
2016-04-17T21:17:21Z aeth: Since this is #scheme, maybe the intent was to try to run the first version of Scheme?
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2016-04-17T23:47:09Z weitzelb: hello!
2016-04-17T23:48:51Z weitzelb: there's a lot of people in here, but its quite quite
2016-04-17T23:54:06Z pierpa: quite so
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2016-04-18T00:00:32Z Kooda: heh
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2016-04-18T01:20:46Z garietyxxx: Does piumarta's maru have documentation?
2016-04-18T01:20:56Z garietyxxx: Or is there a list of the methods it supports natively?
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2016-04-18T05:49:06Z groovy2shoes: I actually have a copy of the 1.5 manual lying around
2016-04-18T05:49:25Z groovy2shoes: it's got a listing of the metacircular evaluator in Appendix B, IIRC
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2016-04-18T05:50:03Z groovy2shoes: shouldn't be too hard to port to Scheme, really... it's just under 2 pages for the listing, and ~a page and a half for the explanation
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2016-04-18T06:16:06Z ecraven: it was posted (on HN?) a few weeks ago, ported to maybe CL and Scheme?
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2016-04-18T06:37:13Z groovy2shoes: you can find a PDF of a scanned copy of the 1.5 manual pretty easily on the Web, too, so it may be old but it's not exactly obscure...
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2016-04-18T07:31:22Z madamiam: can anyone explains me how this output generated http://paste.lisp.org/display/313863
2016-04-18T07:32:24Z madamiam: where did 2 go
2016-04-18T07:32:37Z taylan: madamiam: it was overwritten by 'two
2016-04-18T07:32:55Z madamiam: i think p should be 1 two 2 3
2016-04-18T07:33:04Z madamiam: i dont get it
2016-04-18T07:33:20Z taylan: the cdr of (1 2 3) is (2 3).  of that, the car is 2.  that was set to 'two instead.
2016-04-18T07:33:41Z taylan: it's just how set-car! works.  it changes one value to another.
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2016-04-18T07:34:09Z madamiam: okey thank you very much.it is more understandable for me taylan
2016-04-18T07:34:19Z taylan: :)
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2016-04-18T08:54:41Z ecraven: does any scheme have trace-let, which prints the actual bindings for debugging purposes?
2016-04-18T08:55:06Z Kooda: Seems pretty easy to write :Þ
2016-04-18T08:55:24Z ecraven: yea, just wondering whether there's an obvious reason for not doing it :)
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2016-04-18T08:57:06Z Kooda: Having a source level debugger is probably more useful that just a macro like this one ^^
2016-04-18T08:57:17Z Kooda: That’s probably why.
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2016-04-18T09:09:52Z ecraven: Kooda: I only partially agree, I very often like to see the trace of something
2016-04-18T09:10:09Z ecraven: maybe I'm just using the wrong debuggers
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2016-04-18T12:36:04Z weitzelb: hello, who all is here?
2016-04-18T12:36:14Z ecraven: lots of us
2016-04-18T12:36:41Z weitzelb: nice, the client was a little wonky for me a minute ago. i guess I was asking if I was here.
2016-04-18T12:37:07Z weitzelb: odd question, but should reduce work the same across most major scheme implementations?
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2016-04-18T12:37:50Z ecraven: yes
2016-04-18T12:37:59Z ecraven: some might have the order of arguments worng
2016-04-18T12:38:41Z weitzelb: ok, and would any have anything weird like needing to include a standard libary before it would work?
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2016-04-18T12:42:38Z weitzelb: here's what I'm getting at, on MIT scheme, `(reduce + 0 '(1 2 3 4))` returns 10, but on guile it throws "Unbound variable reduce"
2016-04-18T12:43:36Z ecraven: weitzelb: ah, reduce probably needs srfi-1
2016-04-18T12:43:36Z weitzelb: I feel like I'm completely missing something
2016-04-18T12:43:53Z weitzelb: *googles srfi-1*
2016-04-18T12:44:47Z ecraven: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/28656798/how-do-i-use-srfi-1-in-guile
2016-04-18T12:48:14Z ecraven: MIT/GNU Scheme puts a lot of functions into the global namespace that other Schemes don't
2016-04-18T12:49:22Z weitzelb: and if I was to stick with a single flavor for the next few months, do you have a reccomendation?
2016-04-18T12:49:40Z ecraven: personally, I use MIT/GNU Scheme a lot
2016-04-18T12:50:02Z ecraven: but more here use chicken, guile, racket, chibi, (not an exhaustive list, no particular order)
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2016-04-18T12:50:21Z ecraven: I like MIT/GNU Scheme's SLIME support better than geiser
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2016-04-18T12:56:12Z ecraven: but you'll find help for any of the major open-source Schemes here or in dedicated channels
2016-04-18T12:56:22Z ecraven: so basically, pick whatever feels good to you :)
2016-04-18T12:57:47Z weitzelb: thanks. I use bash heavily and was going use scheme instead to learn it, but when it gets into process management and file system stuff, it looks like all the libraries slightly differ.
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2016-04-18T13:53:17Z jcowan_: weitzelb: Yes, Scheme is more a family of languages than a single language, unfortunately.
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2016-04-18T13:54:04Z weitzelb: @jcowan which is not at all what I expected
2016-04-18T13:54:53Z jcowan nods
2016-04-18T13:55:03Z jcowan: When you have about 100 implementations, that's what's going to happen.
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2016-04-18T13:55:54Z jcowan: Especially when your standards have historically underspecified the language, and then overspecified it.
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2016-04-18T13:57:54Z weitzelb: what I love about bash is the utility it gave across such a variety of systems, is there any implementation of scheme that would work similarly? or any that compile across platforms well?
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2016-04-18T13:59:28Z jcowan: Essentially all of them are cross-platform, so that's not a problem.
2016-04-18T14:00:14Z jcowan: http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations <-- good read, especially for why Scheme has so many implementations and what it means to choose one
2016-04-18T14:06:30Z weitzelb: ok, this is really cool. I'm excited to be a part of this world.
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2016-04-18T14:23:26Z jcowan: weitzelb: Good, we neeeeeed new bloooooood!
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2016-04-18T15:04:23Z milkshake: can anyone help me with this code http://paste.lisp.org/display/313893
2016-04-18T15:05:44Z mejja: 'v4
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2016-04-18T15:07:55Z milkshake: mejja this time it says caar: contract violation   expected: (cons/c pair? any/c)   given: '()
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2016-04-18T15:20:47Z jcowan: milkshake: Your cond-clauses appear in the wrong order; they are evaluated top to bottom
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2016-04-18T21:53:29Z paroneayea: I really don't like #| foo |# style block comments for some reason
2016-04-18T21:53:34Z paroneayea: they don't look very scheme'y to me.
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2016-04-18T21:57:14Z evhan: paroneayea: You can use #;( foo ) instead, perhaps you find that nicer?
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2016-04-18T22:07:39Z paroneayea: evhan: wowee, I had no idea about that one
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2016-04-18T22:09:55Z ijp: #; is a weird one, since it probably shouldn't exist in any code
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2016-04-18T22:26:01Z pjb: In Common Lisp you could write a reader macro to make (* block comments (* like in pascal *) that would look more schemy ;-) *)
2016-04-18T22:26:31Z ijp: breaking all multiplication in the process
2016-04-18T22:26:42Z pjb: (times 4 2) like in the good old time!
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2016-04-19T03:28:10Z groovy2shoes: paroneayea, and ; foo style line comments look scheme-y?  :p
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2016-04-19T06:46:26Z ecraven: I like #|, but emacs sometimes doesn't :-/
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2016-04-19T09:02:03Z xieyuheng: how many kinds of module systems are there ? any blog readings that compare them ?
2016-04-19T09:03:43Z ecraven: xieyuheng: I'd guess about each Scheme has its own :)
2016-04-19T09:03:49Z ecraven: the respective manuals should explain them
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2016-04-19T09:15:46Z xieyuheng: do you know any good readings about scheme eco-system ?
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2016-04-19T14:56:12Z ecraven: is anyone here a geiser implementor?
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2016-04-19T15:02:12Z JuanDaugherty: ah so that's the scheme equiv of slime
2016-04-19T15:02:20Z jao: ecraven, i am, but i'm about to leave and will be afk a few hours. there's also #geiser
2016-04-19T15:02:36Z ecraven: jao: ah, thanks!
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2016-04-19T17:37:54Z jcowan: leppie: ping
2016-04-19T17:41:14Z leppie: jcowan: pong
2016-04-19T17:42:22Z jcowan: Typing (read) to IronScheme provokes an exception saying that the console cannot be seeked on.
2016-04-19T17:45:01Z leppie: jcowan: from a program?
2016-04-19T17:45:18Z jcowan: No, from the REPL
2016-04-19T17:46:18Z leppie: jcowan: hmm, can guess why it happens, no EOF
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2016-04-19T17:46:45Z jcowan: I assumed you were trying to ungetchar and the console doesn't support it
2016-04-19T17:46:56Z jcowan: Unhandled CLR exception during evaluation:
2016-04-19T17:46:56Z jcowan: CLR Exception: System.NotSupportedException
2016-04-19T17:46:56Z jcowan: System.NotSupportedException: The stream does not support seeking
2016-04-19T17:47:05Z leppie: you tested on Mono I assume?
2016-04-19T17:47:16Z jcowan: Yes, I can try on MS CLR as well
2016-04-19T17:47:38Z leppie: Dont bother. It just hangs there :D Have to Ctrl+C
2016-04-19T17:47:57Z leppie: I will  debug quick :)
2016-04-19T17:48:36Z jcowan: Thanks
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2016-04-19T17:53:58Z leppie: On MS CLR ENTER, F6 will do enough to flush the post and do EOF
2016-04-19T17:54:57Z leppie: s/post/port/
2016-04-19T17:56:25Z leppie: can you do (display-stacktrace #t) and post me the stack in a PM?
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2016-04-19T17:57:26Z leppie: jcowan: stdin has always been tricky for me on windows...
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2016-04-19T19:34:12Z taylan: jcowan: pong
2016-04-19T19:34:39Z jcowan: I filed some issues against bytestructures
2016-04-19T19:35:08Z taylan: thanks!  not sure if I'll have time until the end of May.  (then I'll definitely have time)
2016-04-19T19:35:19Z jcowan: I'd like it to become a SRFI later this year, so no hurry
2016-04-19T19:35:30Z jcowan: mostly editorial/naming
2016-04-19T19:37:06Z taylan: well you know my opinion on SRFI'ing things that can just exist as portably implemented libraries :)  but if you insist I won't block it
2016-04-19T19:37:28Z jcowan: Almost all SRFIs are portably implemented libraries.
2016-04-19T19:37:51Z jcowan: indeed, portable implementations are very much encouraged.  It doesn't mean they're always the best implementation for local values of "best"
2016-04-19T19:38:03Z jcowan: e.g. Chibi has its own code-compact version of SRFI 1
2016-04-19T19:38:11Z jcowan: because code compactness is a big Chibi value
2016-04-19T19:39:45Z taylan: well, portably implemented without suffering from bad performance, tons of cond-expand, etc.  but if we're careful with the spec then bytestructures is an OK candidate for standardization I guess.
2016-04-19T19:40:03Z jcowan nods.
2016-04-19T19:40:17Z jcowan: THe portable implementation of ephemerons suggested by Will Clinger does nothing, but it does conform.
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2016-04-19T20:23:49Z groovy2shoes: lol chibi uses a ton of RAM at startup
2016-04-19T20:24:24Z groovy2shoes: 41MB VSS
2016-04-19T20:27:16Z jcowan: You can cut that back with compile-time config options
2016-04-19T20:27:18Z groovy2shoes: over twice as much VSS as Lua, and about thrice as much RES and SHR
2016-04-19T20:27:46Z groovy2shoes: sure, you can have a chibi with compact code if you're willing to gimp your scheme at compile time
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2016-04-19T20:28:51Z groovy2shoes: Alex is always talking shit about TinySCHEME... it might be pretty slow, but it uses around a quarter of the RAM that chibi uses, so imo chibi is not an acceptable substitute unfortunately
2016-04-19T20:29:15Z jcowan: Turning off the options doesn't make it a NQS, it just removes things like bignums.
2016-04-19T20:29:29Z groovy2shoes: if I cared more about speed than size, I'd definitely be reaching for chibi, it seems like a nice system otherwise
2016-04-19T20:29:42Z groovy2shoes: though I've found it not as hackable as TinySCHEME
2016-04-19T20:30:00Z groovy2shoes: that was back in the 0.6 days, so perhaps the hackability has improved since then
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2016-04-19T20:34:16Z jcowan: See https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/include/chibi/features.h for which features you can remove
2016-04-19T20:36:14Z jcowan: Chibi is less hackable primarily because it is harder to understand, being a byte-code compiler rather than a tree-walking interpreter.
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2016-04-19T20:51:42Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, I was trying to hack the syntactic closures to make it possible to implement implicit-rename macros without walking the macro forms and painting all the identifiers
2016-04-19T20:52:16Z groovy2shoes: so, nothing really to do with the bytecode VM, though I'm no stranger to bytecode VMs either :p
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2016-04-19T21:10:35Z jcowan: macro implementations are Deep Magic From The Dawn Of Time to me
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2016-04-19T21:21:17Z Riastradh: jcowan: Read Jonathan Rees's paper `Implementing lexically scoped macros'.
2016-04-19T21:23:14Z jcowan: Riastradh: Will do
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2016-04-19T22:07:48Z hiredman: Hello, I know there are papers on writing scheme compilers that generate fast code, but do you know of any papers on writing a scheme compiler that generates code very quickly?
2016-04-19T22:09:21Z groovy2shoes: the fastest compilers tend to be the naive ones, ime
2016-04-19T22:09:38Z groovy2shoes: i.e., straightforward translation without any optimizations
2016-04-19T22:09:56Z groovy2shoes: and the fewer passes the faster
2016-04-19T22:13:00Z hiredman: yeah, I guess I was thinking about tips for how to do bits of analysis common to compilers for scheme like languages fast
2016-04-19T22:13:20Z groovy2shoes: hmm I'm unfortunately not aware of any :S
2016-04-19T22:13:57Z groovy2shoes: though most of the stuff Scheme compilers do is common to functional languages, so if you find any paper about quickly compiling any functional language, a large part of it ought to apply to a Scheme compiler as well
2016-04-19T22:14:30Z groovy2shoes: I'm particularly fond of Luca Cardelli's ML paper
2016-04-19T22:15:01Z groovy2shoes: whose closure implementation technique is further described in "The Implementation of Lua 5.0"
2016-04-19T22:15:54Z groovy2shoes: (I only mention the second paper because I feel that the closure stuff is more clearly explained there, but it's the same technique Cardelli uses)
2016-04-19T22:16:01Z Riastradh: hiredman: http://library.readscheme.org/
2016-04-19T22:16:33Z hiredman: groovy2shoes: compiling a functional language?
2016-04-19T22:16:46Z groovy2shoes: I think that's the one
2016-04-19T22:16:47Z groovy2shoes: let me check
2016-04-19T22:16:55Z hiredman: ml on the vax
2016-04-19T22:17:14Z groovy2shoes: yup that's it
2016-04-19T22:17:35Z groovy2shoes: (I've got several binders full of papers on implementing various functional languages ¬_¬)
2016-04-19T22:18:10Z groovy2shoes: (the lengthier ones are actually individually coil-bound)
2016-04-19T22:18:13Z hiredman: actually, I think that is the only paper I have a print out of, I just don't know where it went when I moved
2016-04-19T22:18:16Z groovy2shoes: (I'm a document hoarder...)
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2016-04-19T22:19:09Z groovy2shoes: I particularly like that paper because it discusses several good techniques but it's not particularly lengthy
2016-04-19T22:20:01Z hiredman: sure, I should give it another go, I know more now than last time so I should get more out of it
2016-04-19T22:20:44Z groovy2shoes: the way it's written, it's definitely a "need to read more than once" paper, and it assumes you already know a bit about implementing compilers in general
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2016-04-19T22:21:38Z groovy2shoes: I haven't actually gotten around to reading Simon Peyton-Jones's book, but that might have some information of interest
2016-04-19T22:21:48Z groovy2shoes: and it's freely available on the web
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2016-04-19T22:25:34Z hiredman: ok, groovy2shoes, Riastradh: thanks
2016-04-19T22:27:06Z groovy2shoes: np :)
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2016-04-20T18:04:47Z warweasle: Is there a scheme with a MOP implementation similar to CLOS?
2016-04-20T18:06:10Z qu1j0t3: warweasle: these claim to be CLOS inspired http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/coops , http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/tinyclos
2016-04-20T18:06:50Z jcowan: But without MOP, AFAIR
2016-04-20T18:07:41Z qu1j0t3: right, most likely.
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2016-04-20T18:09:06Z warweasle: qu1j0t3, jcowan: Thanks. Do you know any reason why MOP isn't popular in the Scheme community?
2016-04-20T18:09:42Z jcowan: I think it goes against the extreme KISS attitude of many Schemers
2016-04-20T18:09:57Z qu1j0t3: hehe
2016-04-20T18:10:05Z rszeno: good design
2016-04-20T18:10:36Z warweasle: I can see that. I"m not a huge OOP person but I find it useful for some things.
2016-04-20T18:12:42Z rszeno: oop have some avantages
2016-04-20T18:12:43Z jcowan: There may be more complicated OOP systems than CLOS+MOP, but I don't know of any
2016-04-20T18:12:58Z jcowan: "Objects are just poor man's closures, but then again closures are just poor man's objects."
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2016-04-20T18:13:31Z warweasle: jcowan: C++
2016-04-20T18:13:58Z warweasle: jcowan: The problem with closures is it's difficult to get at the data.
2016-04-20T18:14:29Z jcowan: The whole point of objects is that it's impossible to get at the data (from outside)
2016-04-20T18:15:00Z warweasle: jcowan: Yes and no. It's nice to access them during development.
2016-04-20T18:15:25Z jcowan: Well, that's just a matter of having a debugger that can look inside closures.
2016-04-20T18:15:26Z qu1j0t3: i think jcowan means, "as a model".
2016-04-20T18:15:34Z warweasle loves :accessor and :reader options.
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2016-04-20T18:40:41Z jcowan: By objects I don't mean Scheme objects, of course, but objects in the OOP sense
2016-04-20T18:40:51Z jcowan: arrays are not OOP-objects, despite being obviously Scheme objects
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2016-04-20T18:50:26Z rszeno: jcowan, why array are specials
2016-04-20T18:50:30Z rszeno: ?
2016-04-20T18:50:45Z jcowan: Because they expose all their data
2016-04-20T18:50:49Z jcowan: no encapsulation
2016-04-20T18:57:08Z rszeno: encapsulation is a special design case
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2016-04-20T19:00:12Z garietyxxx: Sup
2016-04-20T19:01:50Z garietyxxx: Is there a way to use functions from other files in R4RS?
2016-04-20T19:03:25Z rszeno: depend of interp.
2016-04-20T19:03:42Z garietyxxx: rszeno: stalin scheme?
2016-04-20T19:03:49Z garietyxxx: rszeno: or S9FES?
2016-04-20T19:04:08Z rszeno: aha
2016-04-20T19:04:13Z garietyxxx: or another R4RS implementation
2016-04-20T19:04:28Z garietyxxx: I really just want basic scheme stuff + a primitive module system
2016-04-20T19:04:52Z garietyxxx: I don't really need fancy namespaces, just a way to "load" a file
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2016-04-20T19:09:15Z rszeno: usaly load do this
2016-04-20T19:10:12Z garietyxxx: rszeno: is (load) defined in R4RS?
2016-04-20T19:10:36Z garietyxxx: looks like it is
2016-04-20T19:10:47Z garietyxxx: wonder if it works in stalin
2016-04-20T19:11:11Z rszeno: i don't know
2016-04-20T19:11:53Z jcowan: Doubtful
2016-04-20T19:12:24Z jcowan: Definitely not, per the README
2016-04-20T19:13:24Z rszeno: you can try
2016-04-20T19:14:31Z jcowan: If the docs say it doesn't exist, it surely doesn't.  What would it do, run the compiler in a separate process?
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2016-04-20T19:14:47Z jcowan: And then what?  You have no way of merging the new code into the running process.
2016-04-20T19:17:37Z garietyxxx: jcowan: can you recommend an R4RS-compliant scheme?
2016-04-20T19:17:42Z groovy2shoes: that's not true at all
2016-04-20T19:18:01Z groovy2shoes: you only have no way if you have W^X for your process
2016-04-20T19:18:10Z jcowan: garietyxxx: Depends what you mean.
2016-04-20T19:18:11Z groovy2shoes: otherwise, JIT compilation works just fine
2016-04-20T19:18:25Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: We are talking Stalin (C compilation to executables) here.
2016-04-20T19:18:41Z jcowan: Essentially all Schemes will run R4RS-compliant code correctly.
2016-04-20T19:18:56Z jcowan: (Racket only if you set the #lang header)
2016-04-20T19:19:05Z groovy2shoes: I'm saying that maybe Stalin can't do that right now, but there aren't really any technical limitations preventing that from happening, it just hasn't been implemented
2016-04-20T19:19:28Z jcowan: If you want a Scheme that implements R4RS and only R4RS, then Scheme 9 does that if you don't care about performance much (it is a classical tree-walking interpreter).
2016-04-20T19:19:48Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: The same could be said about Stalin compiling Fortran
2016-04-20T19:20:45Z groovy2shoes: yeah, Racket doesn't have an r4rs mode, so if your r4rs code also happens to be r5rs code, you're fine (and much r4rs code does, iirc)
2016-04-20T19:22:06Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, you just made it sound like it wasn't technically feasible for Stalin to do so, by creating a hypothetical situation in which it would need to run the compiler in a separate process and dynamically load the code into the running process... all I'm saying is that it's really not infeasible, it just doesn't happen to do that
2016-04-20T19:23:53Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: Well, unless you depend on () being falsy, your R4RS program will run correctly under any compliant R5RS implementation, and R4RS did warn that the falsiness of () would probably go away.
2016-04-20T19:24:23Z groovy2shoes: I'm aware
2016-04-20T19:25:15Z rszeno i suppose R4 is  not a limitation
2016-04-20T19:25:26Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: Well, what's magic about load is eval, and I don't know how else you could write an eval for stalin that ran in the environment of the running program (as opposed to a fully isolated environment, which could be done easily by compiling any old meta-circular interpreter).
2016-04-20T19:25:27Z garietyxxx: jcowan: I mean a minimal scheme. Something really tiny that implements (load)
2016-04-20T19:26:10Z garietyxxx: Ideally something written in scheme itself that can easily be compiled into the program. Small source code.
2016-04-20T19:26:32Z groovy2shoes: garietyxxx, Scheme 9 From Empty Space probably fits the bill
2016-04-20T19:26:37Z jcowan: or S7
2016-04-20T19:26:41Z jcowan: but those are written in C
2016-04-20T19:26:42Z groovy2shoes: as jcowan already mentioned
2016-04-20T19:26:53Z groovy2shoes: I think Gambit-C can do R4RS as well
2016-04-20T19:26:54Z jcowan: When you say "the program", what program do you mean?
2016-04-20T19:27:09Z jcowan: Are you looking for a Scheme you can embed?
2016-04-20T19:27:58Z rszeno: or portability?
2016-04-20T19:28:09Z garietyxxx: jcowan: I'm making a tiny program for an interview. I want to do it in Scheme so that the executable file will be tiny and transportable. It should be able to run on linux of os x without having to "install" any specific scheme once it has been compiled.
2016-04-20T19:28:40Z garietyxxx: If the interviewer tries to run it and it doesn't work that would be bad.
2016-04-20T19:28:49Z garietyxxx: If it's really slow that'd be bad also.
2016-04-20T19:28:52Z jcowan nods
2016-04-20T19:29:08Z garietyxxx: linux or* os x
2016-04-20T19:29:18Z jcowan: Why does the executable have to be tiny?
2016-04-20T19:29:32Z groovy2shoes: why R4RS specifically?  are you one of those who thinks R4RS is the "last true Scheme"?
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2016-04-20T19:29:33Z ecraven: why does it have to be r4rs?
2016-04-20T19:29:50Z ecraven: the main difference between 4 and 5 is hygienic macros, right?
2016-04-20T19:29:57Z groovy2shoes: TinySCHEME can do most of R5RS and it's legitimately tiny... chibi is also pretty small
2016-04-20T19:30:15Z garietyxxx: groovy2shoes: ecraven: I usually use Gambit but yeah I read that cuneiform 2015 report from Viewpoint Research and it really got me thinking about tiny schemes
2016-04-20T19:30:16Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, that and many things that were optional in R4RS are no longer optional
2016-04-20T19:30:57Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: well, any of the C-compiling schemes might give you standalone small executables
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2016-04-20T19:31:05Z groovy2shoes: and, of course, the () vs #f distinction
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2016-04-20T19:31:25Z ecraven: that didn't exist in r4rs? I should really read that :-/ first report I really studied was 5
2016-04-20T19:31:29Z garietyxxx: chibi looks about right
2016-04-20T19:32:09Z groovy2shoes: garietyxxx, chibi is R7RS-small, if that's okay
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2016-04-20T19:32:36Z groovy2shoes: it's pretty good, and it can be made even smaller with some build-time options
2016-04-20T19:32:37Z garietyxxx: groovy2shoes: How does R7RS-small comapre with R6RS?
2016-04-20T19:33:56Z ecraven: garietyxxx: r7rs-small is more like r5rs
2016-04-20T19:34:00Z C-Keen: it ignored r6rs and continues where r5rs left of
2016-04-20T19:34:01Z ecraven: with some extensions
2016-04-20T19:34:03Z groovy2shoes: R7RS-small is basically R5RS with a few much-needed additions (like a module system and user-defined types) (and a few stupid additions, imo, like `when`, `unless`, and `case-lambda`...)
2016-04-20T19:34:24Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: everybody needs when and unless! CL has them :p
2016-04-20T19:34:26Z C-Keen uses when and unless a lot
2016-04-20T19:34:28Z groovy2shoes: but in general it's MUCH smaller than R6RS
2016-04-20T19:34:47Z garietyxxx: groovy2shoes: sounds like I've been sleeping on chibi scheme
2016-04-20T19:34:51Z groovy2shoes: C-Keen, I'm not saying they're stupid in and of themselves, I just don't think they're fundamental enough to belong in the core language
2016-04-20T19:35:08Z garietyxxx: "undefined variable: display"
2016-04-20T19:35:11Z garietyxxx: that's an odd error
2016-04-20T19:35:14Z C-Keen: groovy2shoes: agreed
2016-04-20T19:35:31Z groovy2shoes: garietyxxx, in R7RS the initial environment is empty, so you'll need to do `(import (scheme base))` at a minimum
2016-04-20T19:35:50Z groovy2shoes: though iirc the REPL should do that for you...
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2016-04-20T19:36:39Z groovy2shoes: C-Keen, they're also trivially implementable with syntax-rules, in like 3 or 4 lines of code, but really it's not that big of a deal... I like R7RS overall
2016-04-20T19:37:02Z jcowan: R7RS REPLs must import scheme base for you, programs must not
2016-04-20T19:37:07Z garietyxxx: wow this is pretty cool
2016-04-20T19:37:24Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: I'm kind of torn, it's nice not having to define them yourself.. but then, that way lies the HyperSpec
2016-04-20T19:37:30Z garietyxxx: "base" is undefined but "small" works.
2016-04-20T19:37:34Z jcowan: display is in the (scheme write) library, because very tiny implementations may not need to be able to write Scheme terms
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2016-04-20T19:38:18Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, lol I sorta feel the same way, but that's why I like the small-language vs. large-language distinction of R7RS... I just feel that they belong in the large language rather than the small is all
2016-04-20T19:38:29Z jcowan: I agree that when and unless are kind of trivial, but case-lambda is *much* better than every procedure having its own buggy implementation of handling optional arguments, and much less intrusive than CL-style keywords.
2016-04-20T19:38:31Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: that's a good argument
2016-04-20T19:39:02Z ecraven: I don't like the way parameters work (zero and one-arity functions to distinguish between get and set), but that ship has sailed long ago :-/
2016-04-20T19:39:04Z jcowan: The third tranche of R7RS-large will be commonly used syntax extensions
2016-04-20T19:39:07Z ecraven: I preferred fluids
2016-04-20T19:39:14Z ecraven: jcowan: nice!
2016-04-20T19:39:18Z jcowan: ecraven: no set parameter support in R7RS
2016-04-20T19:39:23Z jcowan: and fluids interact badly with threads
2016-04-20T19:39:31Z C-Keen: jcowan: who's working on large atm?
2016-04-20T19:39:35Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, case-lambda is also fairly easy to define... not quite as trivial as when or unless, but not too bad, and imo it also belongs in the large language rather than the small
2016-04-20T19:39:41Z ecraven: jcowan: aren't the semantics kind of the same between parameters and fluids, just the API is different?
2016-04-20T19:39:43Z jcowan: Mostly me, with the usual part-time help of wits
2016-04-20T19:39:52Z groovy2shoes: again, the way I think about it is "it's not particularly fundamental"
2016-04-20T19:40:01Z jcowan: No, because fluids are shallow bound variables, whereas parameters are first-class objects
2016-04-20T19:40:47Z ecraven: jcowan: scheme48 had explicit accessors for fluids, (fluid +my-fluid+)
2016-04-20T19:40:54Z ecraven: isn't that the same as parameters?
2016-04-20T19:41:08Z jcowan: The small language has to trade off fundamentalness and convenience.  If lists were truly minimal, we'd have car, cdr, cons, null?, set-car!, set-cdr!, and that's it.  But all Scheme standards from R2RS onward have had much more.
2016-04-20T19:41:16Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2016-04-20T19:41:39Z jcowan: ecraven: Not sure.  Can you store them in data structures?
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2016-04-20T19:42:21Z ecraven: jcowan: yes. but if r7rs parameters aren't settable, that's fine, then I'm consoled :D (not that that matters in the big picture)
2016-04-20T19:42:27Z groovy2shoes: EuLisp had nice syntax for dynamically-bound variables, iirc... I agree about the arity thing for parameters, I'd much rather have some additional syntactic forms for that, to make it more clear what's going on (parameterize is fine, as long as it's the only way to set them, but I think there should be a form for getting their contents as well)
2016-04-20T19:42:47Z ecraven: I'd just hate to find all places where a parameter is set, just by finding where it is called with a parameter instead of without one
2016-04-20T19:42:51Z garietyxxx: The executables that chibi-ffi generates "cannot be run by the operating system" which is OS X
2016-04-20T19:42:54Z jcowan: (define (parameter-value p) (p))
2016-04-20T19:43:17Z groovy2shoes: that's not the point
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2016-04-20T19:43:33Z mejja: ls
2016-04-20T19:43:43Z jcowan: ls: . not found
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2016-04-20T19:44:04Z groovy2shoes: lol
2016-04-20T19:46:10Z jcowan: I have gotten that error, and it's a bit scary
2016-04-20T19:46:53Z garietyxxx: I can't find anything in the manual about generating executables with chibi scheme
2016-04-20T19:47:01Z groovy2shoes: yeah, it would be
2016-04-20T19:47:22Z groovy2shoes: garietyxxx, oh, do you need to generate native-code executables?
2016-04-20T19:47:30Z garietyxxx: groovy2shoes: yeah
2016-04-20T19:47:35Z groovy2shoes: I think you're stuck with Gambit, then
2016-04-20T19:47:42Z ecraven: chicken?
2016-04-20T19:47:44Z ecraven: stalin?
2016-04-20T19:47:50Z groovy2shoes: other options are CHICKEN, Larceny, Bigloo, Stalin...
2016-04-20T19:47:55Z ecraven: chez maybe?
2016-04-20T19:48:02Z garietyxxx: ecraven: chez is impossible to find
2016-04-20T19:48:09Z rszeno: guile
2016-04-20T19:48:16Z groovy2shoes: I heard Chez actually got bought by some megacorp who stopped selling it, but idk if that's true
2016-04-20T19:48:17Z ecraven: ah, right, petite doesn't generate executables
2016-04-20T19:48:24Z garietyxxx: Any R7RS-small what makes executables?
2016-04-20T19:48:27Z ecraven: wasn't it cisco?
2016-04-20T19:48:31Z garietyxxx: chicken has partial support it seems
2016-04-20T19:48:46Z garietyxxx: husk looks interesting
2016-04-20T19:48:51Z groovy2shoes: garietyxxx, Larceny can do R7RS
2016-04-20T19:48:53Z ecraven: chicken can compile to executables that need libchicken, and with some work to static executables.. see #chicken
2016-04-20T19:49:38Z wasamasa: larceny is more of a research project though :P
2016-04-20T19:50:12Z groovy2shoes: l;\
2016-04-20T19:50:24Z garietyxxx: can picrin do executables?
2016-04-20T19:50:26Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: Specifically Cicso
2016-04-20T19:50:30Z jcowan: Cisco, even
2016-04-20T19:50:33Z groovy2shoes: works well for me
2016-04-20T19:51:30Z jcowan: Chibi dumps are in development
2016-04-20T19:51:39Z wasamasa: that just sounds wrong
2016-04-20T19:52:01Z C-Keen: garietyxxx: is distributing an archive with a start script not sufficient?
2016-04-20T19:52:29Z C-Keen: garietyxxx: you could even put macosx and windows versions side by side
2016-04-20T19:53:24Z garietyxxx: C-Keen: wouldn't it be kinda slow?
2016-04-20T19:54:12Z garietyxxx: C-Keen: running `time chibi-scheme -e "(+ 1 2)"` takes .2 seconds
2016-04-20T19:54:25Z jcowan: That is essentially Chibi startup time
2016-04-20T19:54:32Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: you just discovered initial overhead
2016-04-20T19:54:42Z C-Keen: garietyxxx: what kind of problem are you solving? Does the speed really matter?
2016-04-20T19:55:04Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: so, as long as you're not periodically launching chibi processes calculating the sum of two numbers...
2016-04-20T19:55:16Z jcowan: He said it couldn't be horribly slow as that would give a bad impression
2016-04-20T19:55:19Z garietyxxx: C-Keen: I suppose it's not that bad. Chicken can do it in 0.06 secs though. Why so slow?
2016-04-20T19:55:27Z jcowan: Is guile 1.x normally available with OS X?  It usually is in Linux
2016-04-20T19:55:34Z ecraven: garietyxxx: csc or csc?
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2016-04-20T19:55:42Z garietyxxx: Yeah I have a feeling that if the interviewer times it it'll look sorta bad
2016-04-20T19:55:44Z wasamasa: jcowan: I doubt it
2016-04-20T19:55:45Z C-Keen: garietyxxx: chibi has to interpret it's libraries to execute them
2016-04-20T19:55:52Z garietyxxx: They're ruby people though so they can't be too speed conscious
2016-04-20T19:55:56Z garietyxxx: ha
2016-04-20T19:56:15Z garietyxxx: C-Keen: what's the benefit?
2016-04-20T19:56:20Z wasamasa: ruby -e "1+2"  0.09s user 0.02s system 84% cpu 0.134 total
2016-04-20T19:56:28Z garietyxxx: ecraven: csi
2016-04-20T19:56:43Z C-Keen: garietyxxx: chibi is an interpreter/byte code compiler (similar to python). Chicken compiles to C
2016-04-20T19:56:52Z ecraven: not csi :)
2016-04-20T19:57:08Z C-Keen: csi is a pretty dumb tree walking interpreter
2016-04-20T19:57:10Z jcowan: In fact it's nothing to do with executing libraries, as + is primitive in Chibi.  What you are measuring is startup overhead pure and simple, which includes loading libraries.
2016-04-20T19:57:13Z C-Keen: without much optimisations
2016-04-20T19:57:29Z garietyxxx: jcowan: isn't there a way to get R7RS-small without the overhead?
2016-04-20T19:57:34Z ecraven: hm.. even MIT/GNU Scheme does (+ 1 2) in 0.08s user
2016-04-20T19:57:44Z C-Keen: loading libraries in Chicken is loading a shared executable which is as fast as the disk allows
2016-04-20T19:57:49Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: write an implementation that isn't slow at loading up, duh
2016-04-20T19:57:55Z jcowan: garietyxxx: You want small small small and fast fast fast, and generally speaking that is self-contradictory.
2016-04-20T19:58:18Z garietyxxx: jcowan: so all R7RS-small implementations are going to have a .2 seconds overhead?
2016-04-20T19:58:21Z jcowan: To be fast, you have to compile to native code, which pretty much excludes being small.  Or you have to have a JIT, which ditto.
2016-04-20T19:58:21Z C-Keen: garietyxxx: what kind of problem are you solving for your interview?
2016-04-20T19:58:24Z groovy2shoes: garietyxxx, chibi has FASL image support coming up in the next release
2016-04-20T19:58:36Z ecraven: garietyxxx: no, that depends entirely on your machine
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2016-04-20T19:59:16Z jcowan: Chicken's R7RS-small implementation certainly is not slow, esp. if you use a static build (but static builds are not supported on OS X, IIRC)
2016-04-20T19:59:23Z groovy2shoes: garietyxxx, and Larceny can do native code for R7RS
2016-04-20T19:59:37Z garietyxxx: C-Keen: i'm writing a specialize formula evaluator. `$ my-program "[my_variable] * 2"`, etc
2016-04-20T19:59:40Z rszeno: .2 sec is the overhead
2016-04-20T19:59:42Z C-Keen: jcowan: static meaning static except the libc in mac os x
2016-04-20T20:00:03Z jcowan: Ah.
2016-04-20T20:00:06Z garietyxxx: groovy2shoes: sounds like larceny is my best bet here
2016-04-20T20:00:11Z groovy2shoes: bah, OS X! :p
2016-04-20T20:00:40Z C-Keen: jcowan: there are even more restrictions enforced in later versions see the latest chicken-user talk
2016-04-20T20:01:11Z jcowan: garietyxxx: But no guarantee of a tiny executable
2016-04-20T20:02:34Z garietyxxx: jcowan: that's okay
2016-04-20T20:02:45Z garietyxxx: jcowan: big executable is okay for this interview, I think
2016-04-20T20:03:47Z rszeno: want to run it on the web?
2016-04-20T20:04:02Z ecraven: chicken executables are 2-3mb, last time I checked
2016-04-20T20:05:07Z wasamasa: out of curiosity I tested the only interpreter I wrote
2016-04-20T20:05:11Z wasamasa: emacs -Q --batch --load stepA_mal.el ~/test.mal 0.06s user 0.01s system 94% cpu 0.077 total
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2016-04-20T20:05:25Z wasamasa: still faster than ruby :P
2016-04-20T20:05:45Z garietyxxx: rszeno: I tried to get some chicken C code to run on the web. it was sort of a nightmare
2016-04-20T20:07:28Z garietyxxx: anyone use mickey? https://github.com/cslarsen/mickey-scheme
2016-04-20T20:08:18Z C-Keen: garietyxxx: what does "get some chicken C code to run on the web" mean?
2016-04-20T20:09:01Z C-Keen: ecraven: about right, a small static executable I am using here has 4mb
2016-04-20T20:09:15Z C-Keen: with small I mean it's ~800 lines of code
2016-04-20T20:09:30Z C-Keen: and using a handful of extensions
2016-04-20T20:09:45Z C-Keen: sorry, 4.9MB
2016-04-20T20:09:55Z ecraven: C-Keen: did you get it to compile fully statically? or does it still need libchicken?
2016-04-20T20:10:18Z C-Keen: ecraven: fully static
2016-04-20T20:10:21Z ecraven: nice :)
2016-04-20T20:10:34Z ecraven: I never managed that, too many magickal incantations
2016-04-20T20:10:40Z ecraven: (for dependencies)
2016-04-20T20:10:42Z C-Keen: it's not hard, it's a bit tedious depending on the eggs you use
2016-04-20T20:11:10Z C-Keen: ecraven: see the compile.sh in http://bitbucket.org/ckeen/pee for an example
2016-04-20T20:11:37Z ecraven: thanks :) I think you explained this to me on #chicken a few months ago
2016-04-20T20:12:06Z C-Keen: I have explained it to everyone not running away fast enough
2016-04-20T20:12:46Z garietyxxx: has anyone compiled with larceny before?
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2016-04-20T20:13:29Z C-Keen: garietyxxx: may I ask why you use scheme for this purpose?
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2016-04-20T20:15:23Z C-Keen: garietyxxx: what I am getting at is: why don't you use the scheme system you are familiar with already?
2016-04-20T20:17:33Z ecraven: garietyxxx:  what kind of program are you looking to write?
2016-04-20T20:17:52Z garietyxxx: C-Keen: I'm want to learn something new
2016-04-20T20:19:11Z garietyxxx: ecraven: It's just a formula parser: `$ my-program "1 + 2 + 3 + [my_variable]"`
2016-04-20T20:20:03Z garietyxxx: C-Keen: A start-script would be okay, but it ought to be portable.
2016-04-20T20:20:22Z C-Keen: garietyxxx: I'd provide one for each OS
2016-04-20T20:20:37Z garietyxxx: C-Keen: how?
2016-04-20T20:20:50Z C-Keen: write it?
2016-04-20T20:20:55Z garietyxxx: Like let's say I have a bunch of R7RS scheme code and a Makefile
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2016-04-20T20:21:35Z garietyxxx: C-Keen: what R7RS implementation ought I to use in that Makefile?
2016-04-20T20:21:42Z garietyxxx: to build the project
2016-04-20T20:22:07Z garietyxxx: I can do this with stalin really easily.
2016-04-20T20:22:13Z C-Keen: lol, no :)
2016-04-20T20:22:50Z garietyxxx: stalin generatesan R4RS executable pretty easily
2016-04-20T20:23:06Z C-Keen: yes, if time is not an issue
2016-04-20T20:23:25Z garietyxxx: C-Keen: time isn't an issue
2016-04-20T20:23:33Z garietyxxx: I'm just trying to do something similar with R7RS
2016-04-20T20:23:43Z garietyxxx: larceny seems poorly documented atm
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2016-04-20T20:24:00Z wasamasa: I think I've mentioned already that it's a research project
2016-04-20T20:24:35Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: I can tell
2016-04-20T20:26:13Z jcowan: Crappy docs is a fact of life in Scheme, modulo Racket and Chicken (and even Chicken has its issues)
2016-04-20T20:27:42Z wasamasa: guile looks alright in this department
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2016-04-20T20:28:04Z jcowan: C-Keen: It would be cool to have a utility that took an arbitrary program, traced the egg dependencies, and generated a compile.sh to statically compile it.
2016-04-20T20:28:25Z C-Keen: jcowan: there are some ideas to revive the toolchain support for static linking for cihcken 5
2016-04-20T20:28:26Z jcowan: Yes, guile isn't bad, and of course some of the small Schemes are fairly well documented because they don't add much.
2016-04-20T20:28:56Z jcowan: This is better than the old static support, though, because it handles eggs
2016-04-20T20:29:02Z C-Keen: yes
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2016-04-20T20:51:25Z C-Keen: bbl
2016-04-20T20:52:40Z garietyxxx: chicken actually has pretty good R7RS support. Better than Guile. The r7rs site's implementation page seems a bit out of date.
2016-04-20T20:52:56Z groovy2shoes: yeah, it is
2016-04-20T20:53:12Z groovy2shoes: all of the scheme web sites are a bit out of date -_-
2016-04-20T20:53:22Z garietyxxx: ha
2016-04-20T20:53:55Z garietyxxx: chicken's R7RS-small hello world is only 14kb. and quite fast. This will work for my interview, but I'll probably go to chibi-scheme afterwards, it's great.
2016-04-20T20:53:59Z garietyxxx: thanks guys
2016-04-20T20:54:02Z groovy2shoes: last I checked (a few weeks ago), schemers.org still has the release of R6RS listed as news, and no mention of R7RS even after these 3 years
2016-04-20T20:54:20Z groovy2shoes: just remember about libchicken
2016-04-20T20:57:00Z garietyxxx: groovy2shoes: I'm not going to C so compilation is handled. And I think it's 14kb with libchicken include already unless I'm missing something.
2016-04-20T20:57:42Z groovy2shoes: just make sure it's statically linked is all I'm saying
2016-04-20T20:58:36Z garietyxxx: thx
2016-04-20T20:59:18Z groovy2shoes: I'd hate for your program to fall flat on its face in front of the interview, making a mockery of both you *and* my beloved Scheme ;)
2016-04-20T21:01:00Z wasamasa: not sure why it's scheme and an interview
2016-04-20T21:01:01Z vifino- is now known as vifino
2016-04-20T21:01:17Z garietyxxx: "Static binaries are NOT supported on Mac OS X"
2016-04-20T21:01:40Z groovy2shoes: shit, if an interviewer tells me I can use whatever language I want, I might be choosing Scheme, too, depending on the problem at hand
2016-04-20T21:01:58Z groovy2shoes: that seems... very strange
2016-04-20T21:02:04Z wasamasa: if you're in an interview situation, why don't you choose something you're familiar with
2016-04-20T21:02:05Z groovy2shoes: why wouldn't OS X support static linking?
2016-04-20T21:02:17Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: I thought it'd be funny to write a parser for "1 + 2" in a lisp and picked scheme
2016-04-20T21:02:25Z wasamasa: it's not about picking whatever looks <insert qualifier>, it's about making a good impression
2016-04-20T21:02:26Z groovy2shoes: personally, I *am* familiar with Scheme
2016-04-20T21:02:28Z garietyxxx: groovy2shoes: that's from chicken docs
2016-04-20T21:02:32Z jcowan: groovy2shoes: Not sure anyone remembers how to update schemers.org
2016-04-20T21:02:42Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, lol
2016-04-20T21:02:55Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, I don't think anyone checks the steering committee email account, either :p
2016-04-20T21:02:58Z jcowan: I think Apple considers static linking obsolete
2016-04-20T21:03:06Z groovy2shoes: fuck Apple
2016-04-20T21:03:18Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: so you're interviewed at a place where you already know the exercise?
2016-04-20T21:03:23Z jcowan: No.  I normally talk to the SC by emailing either everybody or just Will Clinger
2016-04-20T21:03:26Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: or is this something else than a job interview?
2016-04-20T21:04:01Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: it's a code challenge and then an interview. They just going to git clone it and then interview afterwards.
2016-04-20T21:04:16Z wasamasa: aha
2016-04-20T21:04:41Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: the trick it getting it to compile on *their* machines consistently. I may end up scrapping the portability part but for the moment I'm going for it. what the hell.
2016-04-20T21:05:06Z wasamasa: well, if they have brew/macports/... at hand, that should be easy
2016-04-20T21:05:37Z groovy2shoes: or if they have Xcode CLI tools installed, you can use chicken to compile to C, and then try compiling that with clang on the target machine?
2016-04-20T21:05:53Z groovy2shoes: still leaves the door open for libchicken, though
2016-04-20T21:06:01Z garietyxxx: groovy2shoes: that could work
2016-04-20T21:06:30Z wasamasa: it doesn't really matter, compiling a chicken from source takes like, ten minutes max
2016-04-20T21:06:32Z groovy2shoes: that's how the chicken source itself is distributed, since it's self-hosting and all
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2016-04-20T21:10:33Z wasamasa: what irritates me about this is that the possibility of just demonstrating the project on the author's machine isn't considered
2016-04-20T21:11:35Z jcowan: For that you'd have to be in *shudder* personal presence
2016-04-20T21:11:46Z jcowan: geeks are getting more and more Solarian with time
2016-04-20T21:12:00Z wasamasa: I'll just assume that remote interviewing isn't the norm yet :P
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2016-04-21T00:49:45Z garietyxxx: Why does '1-2-3 give me the error "missing imaginary part of complex" in chibi?
2016-04-21T00:49:58Z garietyxxx: Any symbol with dashes will do this
2016-04-21T00:51:47Z garietyxxx: is it a bug?
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2016-04-21T00:52:37Z Riastradh: Try `1-2i'.
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2016-04-21T00:57:40Z garietyxxx: Riastradh: the symbol is, then, '1-2i
2016-04-21T00:57:49Z garietyxxx: I that doesn't error
2016-04-21T00:58:07Z garietyxxx: but shouldn't '1-2-3 work?
2016-04-21T00:58:15Z Menche: hrm, I get "multiple real parts of complex: -1342-15423532i" when I do that
2016-04-21T01:01:26Z Riastradh: garietyxxx: Nope, not a symbol.
2016-04-21T01:02:00Z Riastradh: garietyxxx: Try (log 0-1i).
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2016-04-21T02:11:18Z groovy2shoes: '|1-2-3|
2016-04-21T02:11:55Z groovy2shoes: garietyx1, ^
2016-04-21T02:12:40Z groovy2shoes: the vertical bars let you put any character in a symbol, like you would a string
2016-04-21T02:13:02Z groovy2shoes: (in R7RS, at least)
2016-04-21T02:14:35Z garietyx1: groovy2shoes: thanks!
2016-04-21T02:14:45Z groovy2shoes: np
2016-04-21T02:15:17Z groovy2shoes: I amazed a friend of mine the other day by showing him the "empty identifier": ||
2016-04-21T02:15:18Z groovy2shoes: :)
2016-04-21T02:16:04Z garietyx1: groovy2shoes: cool
2016-04-21T02:16:39Z garietyx1: do you know how to "abort" in chibi? raise doesn't signal the kill.
2016-04-21T02:17:08Z groovy2shoes: he was very much perturbed by identifiers with spaces in them... (define |hello there, pal| "hi")   ; lol
2016-04-21T02:17:46Z groovy2shoes: oh man, I haven't used chibi in a while
2016-04-21T02:18:19Z groovy2shoes: Ctrl-C probably doesn't work while it's in "C mode", as in Lua... might have to press it a few times
2016-04-21T02:18:37Z groovy2shoes: if that doesn't work, then I've got no clue, unfortunately :(
2016-04-21T02:18:37Z garietyx1: groovy2shoes: I mean programatically
2016-04-21T02:19:08Z groovy2shoes: ah... have you tried (exit) ?
2016-04-21T02:19:30Z groovy2shoes: or (error "foo") ?
2016-04-21T02:21:05Z garietyx1: ah error works
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2016-04-21T06:28:59Z garietyxxx: Sup. Is there a way to use a lexer in Scheme?
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2016-04-21T06:29:10Z garietyxxx: Specifically chibi
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2016-04-21T06:29:24Z garietyxxx: I know that chicken has an egg called silex
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2016-04-21T06:47:41Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: writing a lexer is trivial
2016-04-21T06:48:18Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: think hard about the regex for splitting, then split the input with it and add each token as it comes to a list
2016-04-21T06:48:22Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: then return the list, done
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2016-04-21T06:51:34Z JuanDaugherty: in general the lex-yacc interface is a standard that can be used to have different lexers for a common compiling infrastructure
2016-04-21T06:51:44Z JuanDaugherty: *defacto standard
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2016-04-21T06:58:14Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: oh, okay
2016-04-21T06:58:24Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: that actually doesn't seem that hard
2016-04-21T06:58:47Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: the reason people side with these systems is to avoid repeating all that boring code yet another time and just provide something vaguely grammar-like to get readily tagged output
2016-04-21T06:59:31Z wasamasa: here's one I wrote: https://github.com/kanaka/mal/blob/master/elisp/reader.el
2016-04-21T07:00:05Z wasamasa: it's intermingled with a reader, but eh
2016-04-21T07:00:11Z wasamasa: the base logic is simple
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2016-04-21T07:01:04Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: do you have an example string I can throw into it to see how it works?
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2016-04-21T07:22:31Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: (+ 1 1)
2016-04-21T07:22:38Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: it's from a lisp implementation
2016-04-21T07:23:13Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: what you probably want is a regex stripping away leading whitespace, then matching a consecutive sequence of non-whitespaces, then throw away the last chunk if it's just whitespace
2016-04-21T07:24:37Z wasamasa: or just splitting the input on whitespace :P
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2016-04-21T13:30:53Z jackdaniel: you'll need left-pad and right-pad for that ;)
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2016-04-21T17:11:28Z garietyxxx: Is there a common name for inserting at the "peak" of a list? ((())) -> ((("foo")))
2016-04-21T17:11:52Z LeoNerd: I could be slightly purile and call it tail-stuffing
2016-04-21T17:12:09Z LeoNerd: Oh, except that a "tail" already means something else in SCheme
2016-04-21T17:13:17Z garietyxxx: LeoNerd: am i doing anything haenus by it?
2016-04-21T17:13:17Z jcowan: It's not necessarily a unique place.
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2016-04-21T17:13:40Z LeoNerd: If it's a flat list it will be.. but if it's a tree, then no
2016-04-21T17:13:42Z jcowan: Does anyone think that string-contains-right is a good thing for a string package to have?
2016-04-21T17:13:56Z jcowan: LeoNerd:  How so? (() ()), where is the peak?
2016-04-21T17:14:15Z jcowan: Obvs it has ... wait for it
2016-04-21T17:14:16Z jcowan: Twin Peaks
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2016-04-21T17:18:35Z LeoNerd: jcowan: I guess the word "peak" is the problem... for a list, the end-most position in it is welldefined
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2016-04-21T17:27:04Z garietyxxx: jcowan: you raised a good point about my algorithm in your joke
2016-04-21T17:27:21Z garietyxxx: jcowan: what I need to do is insert a list at the first peak
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2016-04-21T17:30:53Z jcowan: Okay, so walk the lists recursively and keep a pointer to the current candidate peak and how deep it is, updating the current candidate only when it is deeper than the previous candidate.
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2016-04-21T17:52:07Z jcowan reiterates the question about string-contains-right: worth having or not?
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2016-04-21T17:58:15Z garietyxxx: How can I insert at a deep point in a list without set-car!?
2016-04-21T17:58:39Z garietyxxx: Seems like this should be common, but mutability seems gone in r7rs.
2016-04-21T17:58:53Z jcowan: r7rs has set-car!.
2016-04-21T17:59:08Z garietyxxx: jcowan: says "error: immutable pair"
2016-04-21T17:59:29Z jcowan: That is because you are attempting to mutate a literal pair.  Use cons, not quote, when playing with mutability.
2016-04-21T17:59:52Z jcowan: This was true back to R5RS, although many implementations don't enforce it.
2016-04-21T18:00:20Z jcowan: or even earlier probably
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2016-04-21T18:05:43Z garietyxxx: jcowan: ah
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2016-04-21T18:05:52Z garietyxxx: jcowan: wow I'm in pretty deep here
2016-04-21T18:06:00Z garietyxxx: the confusion is getting to me
2016-04-21T18:06:18Z jcowan: That's why we're here.  What are you confused about?
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2016-04-21T18:08:33Z garietyxxx: jcowan: how to "set" at a very deep point and then return the entire list with the mutated pair
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2016-04-21T18:08:55Z garietyxxx: jcowan: I can set the pair, but will it alter the list of which it is a child?
2016-04-21T18:09:02Z jcowan: Yes.
2016-04-21T18:09:25Z jcowan: Lists are just a particular way of looking at certain organizations of pairs.  Pairs are the ground reality.
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2016-04-21T18:11:44Z garietyxxx: jcowan: is there a name for what I'm trying to do?
2016-04-21T18:12:03Z garietyxxx: jcowan: I'm trying to find examples of this, which I thought there would be many, but I can't find anything
2016-04-21T18:12:15Z garietyxxx: "inserting at peak"
2016-04-21T18:12:19Z jcowan: Not that I know of.  Lispers are not usually big on mutation except in very limited ways.
2016-04-21T18:12:28Z garietyxxx: or "set-car at first peak
2016-04-21T18:13:53Z garietyxxx: jcowan: so is there a way to do it without mutation?
2016-04-21T18:14:22Z garietyxxx: jcowan: how else would you go about lexing a nested algorithm: "1 + (2 + (3 + 4)) + 5"
2016-04-21T18:14:48Z garietyxxx: that needs to become ("1 +" ("2 +" ("3 + 4")) "+ 5)
2016-04-21T18:14:58Z garietyxxx: I'm having serious difficulty
2016-04-21T18:15:04Z garietyxxx: spent ~3 hours on this bit alone
2016-04-21T18:15:18Z wasamasa: you mean
2016-04-21T18:16:29Z wasamasa: "(", "1", "+", "(", "2", "+", "(", "3", "+", "4", ")", ")", "+", "5", ")"
2016-04-21T18:16:53Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: nah that's basically just string->list. I need lists of the non-paren parts.
2016-04-21T18:17:12Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: not really, you're missing on consecutive integers and whitespace
2016-04-21T18:17:40Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: but there's no scope there. the parens need to affect order of operations
2016-04-21T18:17:45Z garietyxxx: like a calculator
2016-04-21T18:17:54Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: that's a matter of the parser, not the lexer
2016-04-21T18:18:09Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: I guess I need to parse, rather than lex
2016-04-21T18:18:46Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: first you need to lex it into these tokens, then parse
2016-04-21T18:19:06Z jcowan: Lexing like that is a reasonable first step.  Then you need to write a parser, probably a recursive descent parser would be simplest.  Then output in prefix format (Lisp style) or however you want.
2016-04-21T18:19:37Z wasamasa: well, for that task you don't need to go that far, pushing and popping with a stack should suffice
2016-04-21T18:20:04Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: each character gets assigned a "type" somehow, then?
2016-04-21T18:20:14Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: that happens in the parser :P
2016-04-21T18:20:21Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: concentrate on getting lexing right first
2016-04-21T18:22:19Z TheLemonMan: shunting yard, by your truly Dijikstra
2016-04-21T18:22:47Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: i thought that lexing was assigning types to characters in order to "group" them: "123 + 4" -> "123" "+" "4"
2016-04-21T18:23:04Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: no, it's about tokenizing the input
2016-04-21T18:23:19Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: be it as a simple list of tokens or one with tags
2016-04-21T18:24:00Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: that list of tokens then gets fed to the parser
2016-04-21T18:24:55Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: but at some point in the lexification process I'll need to consult a table of types, right? So that if I see two numbers in a row I know to make them a double-digit number.
2016-04-21T18:25:20Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: no, you'd just be reimplementing regex at that stage :P
2016-04-21T18:26:40Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: so what does the lexer/tokenizer do?
2016-04-21T18:26:58Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: I wrote that already
2016-04-21T18:27:08Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: it turns the input into a list of tokens for the parser
2016-04-21T18:28:36Z garietyxxx: reader.el?
2016-04-21T18:29:58Z wasamasa: that repository has all kinds of examples, including scheme
2016-04-21T18:30:34Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: okay I'm looking through your code
2016-04-21T18:30:38Z wasamasa: I just happen to know elisp best from all those lisp languages
2016-04-21T18:30:51Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: yeah I'm translating to scheme
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2016-04-21T18:33:27Z wasamasa: the regex would probably be something along the lines of " *([-+*/]|[)(]|[^-+*/)(]+)"
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2016-04-21T18:37:48Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: your doesn't use a regexp, though?
2016-04-21T18:37:59Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: it does, it's just in symbolic syntax
2016-04-21T18:38:23Z wasamasa: see http://synthcode.com/scheme/irregex/ for a scheme version of that
2016-04-21T18:39:02Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: which part of reader.el can be converted to a regexp?
2016-04-21T18:39:45Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: apparently I've defined it elsewhere: https://github.com/kanaka/mal/blob/master/elisp/types.el#L48-L59
2016-04-21T18:42:48Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: chibi says "too many )s"
2016-04-21T18:42:52Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: isn't that an SRE?
2016-04-21T18:45:32Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: it's not
2016-04-21T18:46:33Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: damn
2016-04-21T18:47:09Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: do I really need to lex this thing if it's so simple? All I need to do is parse parens, addition and multiplication.
2016-04-21T18:48:34Z wasamasa: ...
2016-04-21T18:48:53Z wasamasa: it's not exactly rocket science :P
2016-04-21T18:49:50Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: I have no idea where to begin translating this regexp to a SRE
2016-04-21T18:50:19Z wasamasa: you shouldn't translate that code in the first place, I just showed it to illustrate how simple it can be
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2016-04-21T18:53:14Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: so I need to write a regexp in SRE that converts "1 + (23 + 34)" into ("1" "+" "(" "23" "+" "34" ")")?
2016-04-21T18:53:57Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: well, yeah
2016-04-21T18:54:13Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: a SRE that matches each of these tokens
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2016-04-21T18:57:03Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: I guess I don
2016-04-21T18:57:15Z garietyxxx: I don't see what they need tobe separate steps: lex and then parse
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2016-04-21T18:57:58Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: before I started looking at your code I was beginning to parse each token separately: first the parens, then the symbols, then the numbers, etc.
2016-04-21T18:58:13Z wasamasa: I don't see why people don't just put all their code into one big function either
2016-04-21T18:58:31Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: heh okay
2016-04-21T18:58:38Z wasamasa: ok, that one would be funnier if it wasn't an actual thing...
2016-04-21T18:59:35Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: I think I'm breaking this down pretty well. I'm just doing unnecessary work. It's probably 5x slower than tokenizing the enitre thing first, since I have to tokenize over and over as I parse. But I already have so much written it's not a big deal.
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2016-04-21T19:03:44Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: In my stuff-peak method I loop (car pair) until (lat? pair) returns true. Then I (set! pair "foo") and return the original list I began looping over.
2016-04-21T19:03:57Z wasamasa: I guess the real reason is that parsers commonly work by applying a grammar to a token stream, so you'll need to have that token stream in advance
2016-04-21T19:04:30Z wasamasa: for parsing lisp you don't really need one as it's a case of "It's either an atom or a list"
2016-04-21T19:04:40Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: I'm doing it backwards, I guess, but I have so much work done already I feel like I should ride it out. I'm tokenizing and parsing one token at a time.
2016-04-21T19:05:37Z wasamasa: you don't really need one for that simple calculator either, it just makes things easier to comprehend
2016-04-21T19:06:17Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: RE stuff-peak... when returning the variable "ls" it doesn't contain the mutated peak.
2016-04-21T19:06:37Z wasamasa: simple solution: don't mutate lists
2016-04-21T19:06:43Z garietyxxx: https://gist.github.com/JacksonGariety/29f0a0ebe24a0f26c3758dc6c6c67cf2
2016-04-21T19:07:12Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: how else should I change a deep part of a list?
2016-04-21T19:07:22Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: you generally construct a new one instead
2016-04-21T19:07:26Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: I can't use a stack here since it's not a linar structure
2016-04-21T19:07:32Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: or if you're into doing functional updates, zippers
2016-04-21T19:07:37Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: aha
2016-04-21T19:10:03Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: at some point, though, I'm going to have to loop through a list from the deepest point to the outermost, if I understand correctly. It seems impossible.
2016-04-21T19:11:44Z wasamasa: garietyxxx: that's what lisp interpreters commonly do :P
2016-04-21T19:12:15Z garietyxxx: wasamasa: haha crazy shit
2016-04-21T19:12:22Z wasamasa: recursion ftw
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2016-04-21T23:51:10Z krypt: how does SICP compare to HTDP
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2016-04-22T00:08:42Z atomx: HTDP is undergrad while SICP is for experts
2016-04-22T00:09:05Z atomx: SICP is difficult, while HTDP is for beginners
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2016-04-22T00:14:09Z turbofail2: also, (string<? "HTDP" "SICP") => #t
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2016-04-22T00:22:06Z atomx: turbofail2: no, his question makes sense :)
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2016-04-22T00:23:14Z turbofail2: my comparison is totally valid
2016-04-22T00:24:56Z turbofail2: depending on collation order and whatnot, other exclusions and restrictions may apply
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2016-04-22T00:37:50Z qu1j0t3 isn't sure sicp is really for experts, how did it gain that reputation?
2016-04-22T00:41:10Z wasamasa: lol, both texts are for undergrads
2016-04-22T00:41:24Z wasamasa: HTDP was written in response to people not finding SICP approachable enough though
2016-04-22T00:41:44Z wasamasa: I personally am not fond of the first edition of it, the latest one on the other hand is alright
2016-04-22T00:42:02Z qu1j0t3: wasamasa: that's what i'd have said.
2016-04-22T00:42:34Z wasamasa: I have no idea about reputation
2016-04-22T00:42:45Z wasamasa: must be people trolling with it :>
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2016-04-22T00:47:29Z atomx: sicp is hard to understand however and it's used for grad courses at MIT.
2016-04-22T00:48:17Z atomx: The first 3 chapters and some of the 4th and 5th chapters are easy
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2016-04-22T00:49:08Z atomx: building an oop language requires only the first 3 chapters.
2016-04-22T00:49:18Z atomx: oopl
2016-04-22T00:49:25Z garietyx1: wasamasa: finished my tokenizer. :-)
2016-04-22T00:49:44Z garietyx1: wasamasa: the next step is converting (1 + 2) into (+ 1 2), right?
2016-04-22T00:50:27Z wasamasa: garietyx1: yup, converting the token stream into an AST
2016-04-22T00:50:37Z wasamasa: garietyx1: s-expressions are a great form for that
2016-04-22T00:52:39Z garietyx1: wasamasa: this is basically what I have to do, right? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19124695/trouble-with-simple-calculator-program-in-scheme#answer-19146910
2016-04-22T00:52:44Z garietyx1: wasamasa: or is there a better way?
2016-04-22T00:53:26Z wasamasa: garietyx1: well, the classic way is keeping a stack for operands and another one for operators
2016-04-22T00:53:37Z wasamasa: or maybe that's for evaluation?
2016-04-22T00:53:43Z wasamasa: I dunno, it's been too long
2016-04-22T00:55:20Z turbofail2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunting-yard_algorithm
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2016-04-22T00:56:13Z wasamasa: ah, so it can be used for both
2016-04-22T00:56:14Z wasamasa: nice
2016-04-22T00:56:36Z garietyx1: wow, cool
2016-04-22T00:56:49Z wasamasa: if you implement this, you can spare yourself the effort of thinking up a grammar for parsing
2016-04-22T00:57:23Z garietyx1: wasamasa: yeppp this is going to be fun. see you in an hour or so
2016-04-22T00:57:38Z wasamasa: garietyx1: well, I'm supposed to sleep at this time
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2016-04-22T01:00:58Z garietyx1: wasamasa: see you in the afterlife, then
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2016-04-22T02:23:36Z LadyClaire: Why does (eq? (list 5 5) (cons 5 5)) evaluate to false? Same for (quote 5 5)
2016-04-22T02:24:01Z LadyClaire: They all create a list consisting of two 5s
2016-04-22T02:25:46Z mikeyhc: LadyClaire: (list 5 5) -> (5 . 5 . ()), (cons 5 5) -> (5 . 5)
2016-04-22T02:26:16Z mikeyhc: LadyClaire: list creates a proper list, using cons with no empty list creates an improper list
2016-04-22T02:26:25Z LadyClaire: I meant (quote (5 5)) earlier by the way
2016-04-22T02:27:44Z LadyClaire: Well, that's good to keep in mind then.
2016-04-22T02:28:58Z mikeyhc: LadyClaire: also you are not comparing the same list so it returns false, (eq? (list 5 5) (list 5 5)) will return false as while they contain the same elements they are not the same list, (let ((l (list 5 5))) (eq? l l)) will return true because they are the same list
2016-04-22T02:29:30Z mikeyhc: LadyClaire: if you are comparing object contents use equal?
2016-04-22T02:30:45Z garietyx1: anyone know how to use eval in chibi scheme with a varaible?
2016-04-22T02:31:26Z garietyx1: like (eval my-procedure (environment (foo 100)))
2016-04-22T02:31:38Z garietyx1: I want the varaible
2016-04-22T02:31:47Z garietyx1: |foo| to be available to my procedure, basically
2016-04-22T02:32:22Z LadyClaire: I don't really know a whole lot about Lisp (I'm trying to write a simple, very basic interpreter in Python) and I was just playing around with primitives, I didn't know about equal?
2016-04-22T02:32:49Z mikeyhc: LadyClaire: http://sicp.ai.mit.edu/Fall-2003/manuals/scheme-7.5.5/doc/scheme_4.html should explain all the equivalence predicates
2016-04-22T02:33:47Z mikeyhc: LadyClaire: there is eq?, eqv? and equal? for comparing objects at different granularities
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2016-04-22T02:47:10Z garietyx1: bump on my eval question
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2016-04-22T02:49:55Z mikeyhc: garietyx1: not sure about chibi, but in the schemes I have used you need to pass eval a list
2016-04-22T02:50:18Z mikeyhc: garietyx1: at which point you can construct the list with the variable prior to passing it to eval
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2016-04-22T02:50:50Z garietyx1: micmus: chibi is r7rs
2016-04-22T02:51:14Z garietyx1: mikeyhc: whoops wrong name
2016-04-22T02:52:02Z garietyx1: mikeyhc: oh so like this? (eval '(let ((f 0)) (my-procedure)))?
2016-04-22T02:53:36Z garietyx1: it says it can't find the variable my-procedure
2016-04-22T02:53:41Z mikeyhc: garietyx1: just grabbing chibi, will get back to you in 2 minutes
2016-04-22T02:56:36Z garietyx1: mikeyhc: sweet
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2016-04-22T02:58:47Z garietyx1: mikeyhc: sweet
2016-04-22T02:59:05Z mikeyhc: garietyx1: so I did (define (my-procedure x) x) (define foo 10) (eval (my-procedure foo))
2016-04-22T02:59:09Z mikeyhc: garietyx1: and I got 10 out
2016-04-22T02:59:14Z mikeyhc: garietyx1: is that what you are after?
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2016-04-22T02:59:47Z garietyx1: mikeyhc: sweet
2016-04-22T03:00:03Z garietyx1: whoops I keep thinking I'm in bash
2016-04-22T03:00:52Z mikeyhc: garietyx1: to take it back to my let (let ((proc-call (list 'my-procedure foo))) (eval proc-call))
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2016-04-22T03:02:45Z garietyx1: mikeyhc: (define) works in REPL but not programatically
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2016-04-22T03:04:15Z garietyx1: mikeyhc: and since I don't know how many variables I guess I can't use a procedure. It'll have to be a symbol like '(foo * 10)
2016-04-22T03:04:39Z garietyx1: (eval '(foo * 10)) => 100
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2016-04-22T03:05:28Z garietyx1: mikeyhc: all I can think of is wrapping (foo) in something like (list 'let (list (list 'whatever 10)) (* foo 10)
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2016-04-22T03:07:19Z mikeyhc: garietyx1: you need to (import (scheme base)) to use define
2016-04-22T03:07:57Z garietyx1: mikeyhc: I am using (import (scheme base)). It doesn't grab the define because of the environment argument.
2016-04-22T03:08:09Z garietyx1: the second argument to eval
2016-04-22T03:09:30Z mikeyhc: http://pastebin.com/ihDmu5hk doesn't use an environment in eval but does the trick
2016-04-22T03:09:40Z mikeyhc: can probably add environment if you really need it
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2016-04-22T03:10:34Z evhan: garietyx1: Put `foo' in a library and pass the library's environment to eval.
2016-04-22T03:10:51Z evhan: (define-library (foo) (import (scheme base)) (export foo) (begin (define foo 100)))
2016-04-22T03:10:55Z evhan: (eval 'foo (environment '(foo))) ; => 100
2016-04-22T03:13:05Z garietyx1: evhan: I considered it but, in this case, I don't know how many variables I need.
2016-04-22T03:13:16Z garietyx1: evhan: unless there were a way to programatically set (exports ...)
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2016-04-22T03:32:56Z rudybot: OK, where turbofail2 at
2016-04-22T03:34:44Z turbofail2: ohai
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2016-04-22T06:20:21Z garietyxxx: sup. has anyone here used the chicken test egg?
2016-04-22T06:22:57Z mario-goulart: garietyxxx: yes
2016-04-22T06:23:12Z mario-goulart: It's the most popular test egg for chicken, btw.
2016-04-22T06:24:03Z mario-goulart: For chicken-specific stuff there's also #chicken.
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2016-04-22T06:41:06Z garietyxxx: mario-goulart: got it working, thanks!
2016-04-22T06:41:18Z garietyxxx: mario-goulart: it wasn't the egg it was emacs
2016-04-22T06:41:24Z garietyxxx: (it's always emacs)
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2016-04-22T06:47:07Z mario-goulart: :-)
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2016-04-22T08:13:28Z xieyuheng: this is going to be open ? :: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme
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2016-04-22T08:13:58Z dpk: xieyuheng: ooh, that would be interesting if so
2016-04-22T08:14:11Z dpk: i didn't know cisco owned it, though?
2016-04-22T08:14:51Z wasamasa: they bought it years ago
2016-04-22T08:14:57Z dpk: huh, interesting
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2016-04-22T12:05:26Z ilevd: Is Scheme better than Clojure?
2016-04-22T12:06:01Z ecraven: ilevd: yes! no! maybe?
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2016-04-22T12:06:48Z ecraven: hm.. open source chez would indeed be interesting :()
2016-04-22T12:07:39Z ilevd: ecraven: I don't know, but John Carmack perefers Racket
2016-04-22T12:08:16Z ecraven: ilevd: well, then go with that? Whatever you prefer yourself :)
2016-04-22T12:08:42Z ecraven: There's obviously a reason we are here and not in #clojure or #racket
2016-04-22T12:09:00Z ecraven: however, any of these are fine languages, so pick whatever fits your problem best
2016-04-22T12:09:09Z ilevd: I want the most effective lang
2016-04-22T12:09:15Z ilevd: To be first
2016-04-22T12:10:44Z ecraven: ilevd: effective for what? what's the problem you are trying to solve?
2016-04-22T12:11:04Z ilevd: General purpose problems)
2016-04-22T12:11:23Z ecraven: such as?
2016-04-22T12:11:37Z ecraven: also, which other languages do you know so far?
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2016-04-22T12:12:42Z ilevd: Web
2016-04-22T12:12:55Z ilevd: I know Clojure, Elm, Actionscript
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2016-04-22T12:15:02Z ilevd: I saw Racket, but it seemed it had perfomance problems
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2016-04-22T12:16:41Z ecraven: if you know clojure, neither Scheme nor Racket will be very unfamiliar
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2016-04-22T12:16:58Z ecraven: keep in mind that "Scheme" actually differs, depending on which implementation you choose :)
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2016-04-22T12:19:27Z ilevd: I thinked now Scheme usually means Racket, doesn't it?
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2016-04-22T12:21:24Z ecraven: No
2016-04-22T12:21:38Z ecraven: Racket used to be an implementation of Scheme (PLT Scheme), but it is now its own language
2016-04-22T12:21:49Z ecraven: though it is very close to "normal" Scheme
2016-04-22T12:22:29Z ilevd: Heh, yes, there is #racket channel too)
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2016-04-22T14:12:40Z Necrosporus: Does Tail recursion always involve intruducing additional parameters to collect intermediate results?
2016-04-22T14:12:53Z Necrosporus: compared to regular recursion
2016-04-22T14:13:27Z wasamasa: no
2016-04-22T14:13:44Z wasamasa: you can recur into an infinite loop without any parameters
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2016-04-22T14:14:10Z wasamasa: generally, you can model pretty much any kind of (conditional) iteration with it
2016-04-22T14:15:15Z gnomon: Of course, Chuck Norris can write side-effect-free tail recursive loops which terminate, and Bruce Schneier can write loops which recurse with a negative number of parameters.  (but only djb can write tail recursive loops with an imaginary number of parameters, and he insists his way is the best, but nobody can understand how he does it.)
2016-04-22T14:16:09Z Necrosporus: wasamasa, what if you we are talking only about terminating operations?
2016-04-22T14:16:44Z Necrosporus: who's djb?
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2016-04-22T14:33:11Z mejja: Necrosporus: gnomon is a bot..
2016-04-22T14:33:20Z mejja: gnomon: yow!
2016-04-22T14:34:50Z qu1j0t3: gnomon: botsnack!
2016-04-22T14:35:32Z Necrosporus: The question stays anyway
2016-04-22T14:36:03Z wasamasa: you could retrieve a termination reason outside the loop arguments
2016-04-22T14:36:20Z Necrosporus: I mean, say I have some function which calculates... ok, fibonacci, or factorial, or list length
2016-04-22T14:36:36Z Necrosporus: How?
2016-04-22T14:36:42Z Necrosporus: an example?
2016-04-22T14:37:27Z Necrosporus: non-tail (define (fact n) (if (= n 0) 1 (* (fact (- n 1)) n)))
2016-04-22T14:37:57Z Necrosporus: If we want to transform it into tail, do we have to introduce additional argument?
2016-04-22T14:38:44Z gnomon: qu1j0t3, yum!
2016-04-22T14:38:56Z gnomon: (gnomon is a slow bot)
2016-04-22T14:42:48Z ecraven: Necrosporus: generally, I'd say yes
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2016-04-22T14:43:00Z ecraven: you need to accumulate the result somewhere
2016-04-22T14:43:10Z ecraven: either implicitly on the stack, or explicitly in an argument
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2016-04-22T14:52:25Z Necrosporus: Other languages allow to put a default value into argument, making it optional (define (fact_tail n (acc 1)) (if (= n 0) acc (fact (- n 1) (* acc n))))
2016-04-22T14:52:41Z Necrosporus: eval
2016-04-22T14:53:55Z ecraven: Necrosporus: some Schemes have support for this
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2016-04-22T14:54:24Z ecraven: you can always fake it with (define (fact-tail n . rest) (let ((acc (if (null? rest) 1 (car rest)))) ...))
2016-04-22T14:55:08Z Necrosporus: it's easier to define a local function than use this
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2016-04-22T15:37:20Z Necrosporus: Is there a way to make some tracing of a scheme expression automatically?
2016-04-22T15:37:32Z Necrosporus: Like what does interpreter do on each step
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2016-04-22T16:21:39Z jcowan: ho hey ho
2016-04-22T16:27:05Z na_th_an: ya
2016-04-22T16:27:07Z na_th_an: oops
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2016-04-22T16:28:30Z atomx: Necrosporus: that is called profiling
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2016-04-22T16:29:04Z Necrosporus: not sure. either way, does e.g. guile support it?
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2016-04-22T16:30:25Z atomx: Necrosporus: a profiler gives stats about calls. tracing will give the tree of calls.  But yes, it is possible.
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2016-04-22T16:37:31Z jcowan: Depends on the implementation.  In Chicken, tracing gives the sequence of calls, not the tree, since there is no tree
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2016-04-22T16:45:59Z atomx: jcowan: you mean, the computations cannot be stacked in Chicken ? It uses only continuations ?
2016-04-22T16:46:12Z atomx: as time as you have a stack, you have a tree
2016-04-22T16:55:25Z jcowan: Only continuations, yes
2016-04-22T16:56:54Z jcowan: all returns are transformed into calls by CPS
2016-04-22T16:57:16Z jcowan: and then the stack just winds up until it overflows, and then a C-level longjmp() brings it down again.
2016-04-22T16:57:37Z jcowan: So traceback on errors lists whatever happens to be on the stack, bounded by some constant.
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2016-04-23T11:07:05Z ski: Necrosporus_ : (define (fact n) (let ((k values)) (let loop () (if (= n 0) (k 1) (begin (set! k (let ((n n) (k k)) (lambda (f) (k (* f n))))) (set! n (- n 1)) (loop))))))
2016-04-23T11:07:47Z ski: Necrosporus_ : terminating tail-recursion, with no parameters
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2016-04-23T11:38:49Z ski: Necrosporus_ : (define (fact n) ((call-with-current-continuation (lambda (c) (lambda (f) (f n c)))) (lambda (n c) (if (= n 0) 1 (c (lambda (f) (* ((call-with-current-continuation (lambda (c) (lambda (f) (f (- n 1) c)))) f) n)))))))
2016-04-23T11:38:58Z ski: Necrosporus_ : without using mutation
2016-04-23T11:44:11Z ski: (though it's perhaps not clear if that's tail-recursion .. hm)
2016-04-23T11:46:01Z ski: (well i suppose it isn't. it would be possible to do the previous trick with `k' here as well, though)
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2016-04-23T11:48:50Z ski: Necrosporus_ : (define (fact n) ((call-with-current-continuation (lambda (c) (lambda (f) (f n values c)))) (lambda (n k c) (if (= n 0) (k 1) (c (lambda (f) (f (- n 1) (lambda (f) (k (* f n))) c)))))))
2016-04-23T11:48:59Z ski: Necrosporus_ : somewhat simpler, in fact
2016-04-23T11:50:29Z ski: (of course, neither of these pass no parameters in the looping)
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2016-04-23T12:48:02Z Necrosporus: ski, thank you, but I can't say I understand how is it supposed to work
2016-04-23T12:53:43Z Necrosporus: OK, what scheme can trace execution?
2016-04-23T12:54:32Z wasamasa: that should be trivial to add by the user
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2016-04-23T12:59:01Z Necrosporus: wasamasa, I mean, generate execution log like this: http://pastebin.com/KChZpf0G
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2016-04-23T13:02:45Z wasamasa: or maybe not, hm
2016-04-23T13:02:57Z wasamasa: I thought of recording profiling information
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2016-04-23T13:07:26Z pjb: Necrosporus: as wasamasa says, it's easily enough done by the user, by redefining all the special operators as macros, and redefining some of the macros too! :-) I've done it for Common Lisp, cf. http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/common-lisp/lisp/
2016-04-23T13:08:00Z wasamasa: ah, the old "With enough footwork, you can do it in a generic way"
2016-04-23T13:08:14Z Necrosporus: pjb, but it's not generic
2016-04-23T13:08:18Z wasamasa: Necrosporus: I've done a bit of search and there's a bunch who have such a facility
2016-04-23T13:08:29Z Necrosporus: Ah, that's nice
2016-04-23T13:08:33Z wasamasa: like MIT scheme, racket, CHICKEN, sagittarius scheme, ...
2016-04-23T13:08:44Z wasamasa: also, guile
2016-04-23T13:08:45Z Necrosporus: because doing such a thing yourself would be weird
2016-04-23T13:08:50Z wasamasa: it's not actually
2016-04-23T13:08:56Z Necrosporus: how do you do it in guile?
2016-04-23T13:08:59Z wasamasa: scheme is a good topic for CS research
2016-04-23T13:09:23Z wasamasa: as the language is minimal and the community encourages submitting generic implementations of extensions to it (see the over hundred SRFIs)...
2016-04-23T13:09:23Z pjb: Necrosporus: Well, you have to (use-package "CL-STEPPER") instead of (use-package "CL"). in Scheme you would have to use a scheme-stepper module instead of the r5rs module.
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2016-04-23T13:09:38Z wasamasa: Necrosporus: look it up in the guile manual
2016-04-23T13:09:43Z pjb: And of course, it works only on code that you recompile using this module, but otherwise, it's perfectly "generic".
2016-04-23T13:10:17Z Necrosporus: I think guile does not compile
2016-04-23T13:11:04Z wasamasa: lol
2016-04-23T13:11:16Z wasamasa: what do you think the byte-code interpreter is executing?
2016-04-23T13:11:40Z wasamasa: or what a .go file is?
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2016-04-23T13:14:40Z Necrosporus: btw, remind me what interpreter do you usually suggest and why, for people wanting to learn sheme?
2016-04-23T13:14:52Z Necrosporus: I want a good text repl
2016-04-23T13:15:20Z Necrosporus: not sure if a gui repl makes sense
2016-04-23T13:15:41Z wasamasa: picking a scheme is like picking a tribe :P
2016-04-23T13:15:46Z Necrosporus: but am I right that if one prefers gui repl, then only solution is Raket?
2016-04-23T13:15:54Z wasamasa: yeah, that one's good in that domain
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2016-04-23T13:33:27Z Necrosporus: Which one is best for learning stuff, if without GUI?
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2016-04-23T13:34:14Z Necrosporus: For example is chibi scheme ok for one who learns sicp?
2016-04-23T13:35:06Z wasamasa: nearly everything works for that
2016-04-23T13:35:19Z wasamasa: well, save for the picture language chapter
2016-04-23T13:35:48Z wasamasa: the classic choice has been MIT scheme
2016-04-23T13:36:36Z Necrosporus: of course, but if it were good enough and under GNU too, why did they develop guile?
2016-04-23T13:39:08Z wasamasa: they?
2016-04-23T13:39:25Z wasamasa: MIT and the FSF are not the same
2016-04-23T13:39:41Z wasamasa: of course MIT would use their own scheme implementation for their scheme course...
2016-04-23T13:42:35Z Necrosporus: GNU Scheme
2016-04-23T13:42:45Z Necrosporus: It's another name for MIT Scheme
2016-04-23T13:42:52Z Necrosporus: Guile is gnu thing too
2016-04-23T13:43:34Z qu1j0t3: I used Chicken for all but picture  language. You can use Racket with the picture language chapter with a small code shim.
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2016-04-23T14:13:44Z atomx: Necrosporus: the best to learn is via repl, not via gui.
2016-04-23T14:14:13Z atomx: Necrosporus: to learn SICP, you need many years to do it.
2016-04-23T14:14:53Z atomx: Necrosporus: racket's repl is excellent to learn scheme
2016-04-23T14:15:22Z Necrosporus: What's better, raket-minimal or non-minimal?
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2016-04-23T14:20:58Z atomx: racket non-minimal has drracket
2016-04-23T14:21:08Z atomx: minimal has the console
2016-04-23T14:21:50Z atomx: I cannot say too much. I use emacs, not  drracket. Many who use it like it. Me, not.
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2016-04-23T14:51:55Z atomx: Necrosporus: anyway, if you want to do SICP you need much time and experience.
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2016-04-23T14:52:47Z Necrosporus: atomx, drraket is a gui thingie?
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2016-04-23T15:05:47Z qu1j0t3: well, time, anyway. it's an undergrad text...
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2016-04-23T15:34:33Z atomx: qu1j0t3: only at a first sight it's undergrad.  At MIT /Berkeley it is done for undergrads, but not all.  It is also use in grad courses.
2016-04-23T15:34:45Z atomx: Necrosporus: yes, you can google.
2016-04-23T15:35:00Z atomx: minimal means the repl and some packages
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2016-04-23T16:00:10Z atomx: qu1j0t3: let us say so: if you correctly done sicp, you are able to build a monadic interpreter for haskell.  an undergrad cannot do it.
2016-04-23T16:00:42Z qu1j0t3: that implies that the text doesn't teach what it asks in exercises.
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2016-04-23T16:01:59Z atomx: in exercises it does not ask you to build monadic evaluators, but you can do it if you understood it
2016-04-23T16:03:42Z qu1j0t3: so I don't see the problem
2016-04-23T16:04:25Z atomx: to build monadic evaluators is graduate work or undergrad ?
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2016-04-23T16:07:06Z atomx: I do not know. maybe ungrads from some CS departement can do it.
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2016-04-23T17:06:27Z Necrosporus: I have tried to compile chibi scheme, the release takes 15 mib of binaries
2016-04-23T17:06:40Z Necrosporus: is it "chibi"?
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2016-04-23T19:18:21Z ski: Necrosporus : well, how about the first version (not using continuations) ?
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2016-04-23T19:19:16Z Necrosporus: it uses set! so it's not really recursion
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2016-04-23T19:23:21Z ski: of course it's recursion, `loop' is recursive
2016-04-23T19:23:37Z ski: (tail-recursion, even)
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2016-04-23T19:25:21Z ski:   (define (fact n)
2016-04-23T19:25:37Z ski:     (let loop
2016-04-23T19:25:48Z ski:          ((n n)
2016-04-23T19:25:55Z ski:           (k values))
2016-04-23T19:26:01Z ski:       (if (= n 0)
2016-04-23T19:26:09Z ski:           (k 1)
2016-04-23T19:26:15Z ski:           (loop (- n 1)
2016-04-23T19:26:25Z ski:                 (lambda (f) (k (* f n)))))))
2016-04-23T19:26:45Z ski: that's the CPS version that the `set!'-using version above was based on
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2016-04-23T19:27:19Z ski: a sample "trace" of this looks something like
2016-04-23T19:27:28Z ski:   (fact 5)
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2016-04-23T19:27:46Z ski:   (loop 5 (lambda (f) f))
2016-04-23T19:27:58Z ski:   (loop 4 (lambda (f) (* f 5)))
2016-04-23T19:28:07Z ski:   (loop 3 (lambda (f) (* (* f 4) 5)))
2016-04-23T19:28:15Z ski:   (loop 2 (lambda (f) (* (* (* f 3) 4) 5)))
2016-04-23T19:28:27Z ski:   (loop 1 (lambda (f) (* (* (* (* f 2) 3) 4) 5)))
2016-04-23T19:28:37Z ski:   (loop 0 (lambda (f) (* (* (* (* (* f 1) 2) 3) 4) 5)))
2016-04-23T19:28:46Z ski:   ((lambda (f) (* (* (* (* (* f 1) 2) 3) 4) 5)) 1)
2016-04-23T19:28:58Z ski:   (* (* (* (* (* 1 1) 2) 3) 4) 5)
2016-04-23T19:29:01Z ski:   (* (* (* (* 1 2) 3) 4) 5)
2016-04-23T19:29:05Z ski:   (* (* (* 2 3) 4) 5)
2016-04-23T19:29:09Z ski:   (* (* 6 4) 5)
2016-04-23T19:29:13Z ski:   (* 24 5)
2016-04-23T19:29:16Z ski:   120
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2016-04-23T19:30:07Z ski: so we're simulating a stack, in the `k' parameter (probably allocated on the heap in an implementation). so `loop' is tail-recursive (we use bounded stack space), but we're still not using bounded overall space
2016-04-23T19:30:21Z ski: compare this to the direct solution
2016-04-23T19:30:25Z ski:   (define (fact n)
2016-04-23T19:30:32Z ski:     (if (= n 0)
2016-04-23T19:30:37Z ski:         1
2016-04-23T19:30:53Z ski:         (* (fact (- n 1)) n)))
2016-04-23T19:31:00Z ski: with a corresponding trace
2016-04-23T19:31:05Z ski:   (fact 5)
2016-04-23T19:31:15Z ski:   (* (fact 4) 5)
2016-04-23T19:31:23Z ski:   (* (* (fact 3) 4) 5)
2016-04-23T19:31:32Z ski:   (* (* (* (fact 2) 3) 4) 5)
2016-04-23T19:31:40Z ski:   (* (* (* (* (fact 1) 2) 3) 4) 5)
2016-04-23T19:31:47Z ski:   (* (* (* (* (* (fact 0) 1) 2) 3) 4) 5)
2016-04-23T19:31:54Z ski:   (* (* (* (* (* 1 1) 2) 3) 4) 5)
2016-04-23T19:31:57Z ski:   (* (* (* (* 1 2) 3) 4) 5)
2016-04-23T19:32:00Z ski:   (* (* (* 2 3) 4) 5)
2016-04-23T19:32:05Z ski:   (* (* 6 4) 5)
2016-04-23T19:32:08Z ski:   (* 24 5)
2016-04-23T19:32:11Z ski:   120
2016-04-23T19:32:46Z ski: Necrosporus : does this help in understanding the CPS version of `fact, just above (using `loop' with a continuation `k' parameter) ?
2016-04-23T19:35:20Z Necrosporus: What is CPS?
2016-04-23T19:38:20Z jackdaniel: continuation passing style
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2016-04-23T19:44:00Z Necrosporus: (let loop ((n n) (k values)) // library syntax:  (let <bindings> <body>)
2016-04-23T19:44:33Z ski:   (let <name> (<bindings> ...) <body>)
2016-04-23T19:44:35Z ski: is the same as
2016-04-23T19:44:46Z ski: well, let's say
2016-04-23T19:44:50Z Necrosporus: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_124
2016-04-23T19:44:57Z Necrosporus: There is no such syntax
2016-04-23T19:44:59Z ski:   (let <name> ((<var> <expr>) ...) <body>)
2016-04-23T19:45:03Z ski: is the same as
2016-04-23T19:45:30Z ski:   (letrec ((<name> (lambda (<var> ...) <body>))) (<name> <expr> ...))
2016-04-23T19:46:17Z Necrosporus: but it's non-standard or at least non-r5rs
2016-04-23T19:46:26Z Necrosporus: maybe r7rs-small?
2016-04-23T19:46:31Z ski: so you're defining `loop' recursively, with an initial call passing the results of the `<expr>'s as arguments, which will be bound by the `<var>'s, in `<body>', which can call `<name>' recursively with new values for the `<var>'s
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2016-04-23T19:46:47Z ski: iirc, it should be R5RS
2016-04-23T19:46:57Z ski: derived syntax, i think
2016-04-23T19:47:03Z Necrosporus: ski, my link points to r5rs
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2016-04-23T19:48:13Z ggole: Necrosporus: follow the link mentioned at the bottom of that section
2016-04-23T19:48:24Z ggole: The one talking about 'named let'
2016-04-23T19:49:23Z Necrosporus: ah, didn't notice, thx
2016-04-23T19:50:03Z ski: Necrosporus : see <http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_7.3>, search for `(define-syntax let'
2016-04-23T19:50:39Z ski: this is called "named `let'"
2016-04-23T19:50:56Z ski: one could also alternatively have used `do' here
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2016-04-23T19:53:16Z ski:   (define (fact n)
2016-04-23T19:53:22Z ski:     (do ((n n (- n 1))
2016-04-23T19:53:44Z ski:          (k values (lambda (f) (k (* n f)))))
2016-04-23T19:53:58Z ski:         ((= n 0)
2016-04-23T19:54:01Z ski:          (k 1))))
2016-04-23T19:54:28Z Necrosporus: is there a special name for current lambda?
2016-04-23T19:55:02Z ski: so this is written in the style of an iterative loop, with initializer and "stepper" (updater) for `n' and `k' in case we proceed to the next round. then a termination condition, and the final result expression
2016-04-23T19:55:29Z ski: (but internally (by macro expansion) it translates to a tail-recursive loop with parameter-passing, and no mutation)
2016-04-23T19:55:30Z Necrosporus: for example, if there was such name, like "this" or "self" then one could use ((lambda (n) (* (self (- n 1)) n)))
2016-04-23T19:55:45Z Necrosporus: ((lambda (n) (* (self (- n 1)) n)) 5)
2016-04-23T19:56:58Z ggole: Necrosporus: no, this is what let rec (or sugar around it, like named let) is for
2016-04-23T19:57:20Z ski: Necrosporus : see "A special form rec for recursive evaluation" by Mirko Luedde in 2002-12-02 at <http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-31/srfi-31.html> for one version
2016-04-23T19:57:38Z Necrosporus: I have heard letrec
2016-04-23T19:57:42Z ski: ("named `lambda`")
2016-04-23T19:57:59Z ski: instead of `letrec' above, you could also just use a recursive `define'
2016-04-23T19:58:02Z ski: so, i suppose
2016-04-23T19:58:23Z ski:   (let () (define (<name> <var> ...) <body>) (<name> <expr> ...))
2016-04-23T19:59:15Z ski: the CPS `fact' written in this style would be
2016-04-23T19:59:19Z ski:   (define (fact n)
2016-04-23T19:59:28Z ski:     (define (loop n k)
2016-04-23T19:59:34Z ski:       (if (= n 0)
2016-04-23T19:59:44Z ski:           (k 1)
2016-04-23T19:59:51Z ski:           (loop (- n 1)
2016-04-23T20:00:12Z ski:                 (lambda (f) (k (* f n))))))
2016-04-23T20:00:27Z ski:     (fact n values))
2016-04-23T20:01:10Z ski: (btw, i'm here just using `values' as a convenient way to write `(lambda (f) f)', the identity function. `values' is slightly more general than that, but it doesn't matter here)
2016-04-23T20:02:36Z ski: Necrosporus : anyway, generally Schemers dislike unhygienically introducing an identifier like `this' or `self' into a scope, without the user explicitly choosing/naming it
2016-04-23T20:03:54Z Necrosporus: Actually it could have been done via a specific function, which returns function within which it's used
2016-04-23T20:04:18Z Necrosporus: ((lambda (n) (* ((get-current-lambda) (- n 1)) n)) 5)
2016-04-23T20:04:25Z ski: note that with `rec', you'd do `((rec fact (lambda (n) (if (= n 0) 1 (* (fact (- n 1)) n)))) 5)', explicitly giving the name `fact'
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2016-04-23T20:04:53Z ski: imho, `get-current-lambda' is nonsense
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2016-04-23T20:05:19Z Necrosporus: In Tcl similar thing exists
2016-04-23T20:05:20Z ggole: Smacks of dynamic binding.
2016-04-23T20:05:46Z wasamasa: or these anaphoric macros...
2016-04-23T20:05:57Z Necrosporus: [info body]
2016-04-23T20:08:59Z ski: an implementation ought to be *allowed* to rewrite expressions to introduce lambdas, wrapping subexpressions, if it think it will be a helpful step to improve performance, as long as the behaviour of the program is the same
2016-04-23T20:09:33Z ski: but with something like `get-current-lambda', that'd break if the `(get-current-lambda)' would get rearranged to be placed inside such a synthesized `lambda'
2016-04-23T20:10:12Z Necrosporus: So it cannot be in standard
2016-04-23T20:11:27Z ski: consider `(let* ((x <expr>) (y (get-current-lambda))) <body>)'. this would get translated (by macro expansion, in this case, not by the implementation thinking it might improve stuff) into `((lambda (x) ((lambda (y) <body>) (get-current-lambda))) <expr>)'
2016-04-23T20:12:07Z ski: suddenly `(get-current-lambda)' will give you the `(lambda (x) ..x..)', instead of the `lambda' which (presumably) contains all of this code
2016-04-23T20:12:13Z ski: probably not what you intended
2016-04-23T20:12:13Z ggole: It could probably be implemented, say by rewriting with generated names before any putative introduction of lambdas, but I don't think it would be worth the hassle.
2016-04-23T20:12:25Z ski: so, i wouldn't *want* it to be in a standard
2016-04-23T20:12:31Z ski: (preferably not exist at all)
2016-04-23T20:12:46Z ggole: Better to just explicitly bind.
2016-04-23T20:12:58Z ggole: And if letrec is too cumbersome, sugar can be added for it.
2016-04-23T20:13:14Z ski: (of course, `return' in e.g. C has similar problems, which one notices, when attempting to refactor stuff)
2016-04-23T20:14:22Z ski: imho, the concept of "current `lambda'/function/procedure" is simply a broken concept, should not be used
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2016-04-23T20:15:53Z ggole: You get nasty edge cases too, like what happens if you have a file with just (get-current-lambda)
2016-04-23T20:16:28Z ggole: Not hard to solve, but better not introduced at all.
2016-04-23T20:21:51Z ski: anyway, "named `let'" can often be a nice way to do a local iteration/recursion
2016-04-23T20:22:02Z ski: sometimes a `do' iteration will be clearer
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2016-04-23T20:24:58Z ski: for more involved iteration, i suggest taking a look at e.g. Riastradh's "foof-loop" at <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.txt>,<https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.scm>
2016-04-23T20:25:20Z wasamasa: not to be confused with foof here
2016-04-23T20:26:48Z ski: (not to be confused with foof's "loopy-loop" at <http://synthcode.com/scheme/>, e.g. <http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/loopy-loop>, which is a variant of the same idea)
2016-04-23T20:26:56Z ski nods
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2016-04-23T23:52:08Z ski: which macro systems can support higher-order macros ?
2016-04-23T23:53:16Z ski: hm .. perhaps in fact most of them ?
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2016-04-23T23:54:33Z ski: i mean that if `foo' is a macro that expects one argument, like in `(foo <form>)', and `bar' is another macro that expects one argument, i should be able to write `(bar foo)', assuming `bar' (eventually) applies `foo' to one argument form
2016-04-23T23:55:01Z ijp: right, so all of them
2016-04-23T23:55:25Z ijp: this is basis of CPS macro silliness
2016-04-23T23:55:26Z ski: a related question is which support "macro lambda"
2016-04-23T23:57:11Z ski: (the question arose when pondering type synonyms in Haskell, and how they're a bit like macros, in that you have to fully apply them to get a valid type expression. with some extensions, you can though pass a non-fully-applied type synonym to another type synonym, as long as that other one (eventually) fully applies its argument)
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2016-04-23T23:58:28Z ski: ijp, *nod*, right
2016-04-24T00:00:39Z ijp: I can see the analogy, I'm just not sure it leads very far
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2016-04-24T00:01:52Z ijp: you see a similar thing with combinators and partial application
2016-04-24T00:08:49Z ski: ok ?
2016-04-24T00:09:53Z ijp: well, I guess that's kind of faulty
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2016-04-24T05:27:08Z garietyxxx: can sagittarius compile to bytecode?
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2016-04-24T09:08:46Z wasamasa: looks to me like it does compile code to instructions for a VM
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2016-04-24T09:09:20Z wasamasa: now, whether this happens internally (like with ruby) or to a file that is loaded up later (like with java) is a different question
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2016-04-24T17:12:35Z ecraven: mejja: are you still using MIT/GNU Scheme? Do you know of any way to get at the definition s-expression of a macro in any way, if I just know the environment and the name symbol?
2016-04-24T17:14:08Z mejja: ecraven: what is " the definition s-expression of a macro "?
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2016-04-24T17:14:31Z ecraven: (define-syntax push! (syntax-rules ...)), I want to get (syntax-rules ...) ideally :)
2016-04-24T17:14:41Z ecraven: so whatever is on the right side of `define-syntax'
2016-04-24T17:15:00Z ecraven: introspection, for "normal" procedures, pp shows the definition text, mostly
2016-04-24T17:16:05Z ecraven: mejja: I can get at the macro expander, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to contain any obvious reference to the original form
2016-04-24T17:16:12Z ecraven: which might just not be saved anywhere :-/
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2016-04-25T12:47:18Z mejja: Riastradh: Can you please get your fat ass out of the telly chair and fix the x86_64 disassembler?
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2016-04-25T13:59:05Z manumanumanu: Hi guys and gals. newbie question incoming: I am a bit confused by improper lists. is there any reason why the append function doesn't make a proper list if I append something that's not a list? like (append '(1 2 3) 4)?
2016-04-25T13:59:57Z ecraven: manumanumanu: well, it does what it says, it appends all lists except the last thing you give it to the last thing
2016-04-25T14:00:02Z ecraven: if that thing isn't a list, you get an improper list
2016-04-25T14:00:30Z manumanumanu: is there any use of improper lists?
2016-04-25T14:01:13Z manumanumanu: I fail to see any use of such a behaviour, but I am but a lowly cultural worker :(
2016-04-25T14:01:19Z ecraven: yes, they are a data structure, just like any other :)
2016-04-25T14:01:39Z manumanumanu: I will just accept this and move on :)
2016-04-25T14:02:54Z ecraven: they aren't used often, mind
2016-04-25T14:03:33Z ecraven: do you understand that improper lists are just pairs where the last cdr isn't '()?
2016-04-25T14:03:56Z ecraven: so they aren't so much an extra thing, as they are an effect of the fact that lists are implemented as pairs
2016-04-25T14:04:40Z manumanumanu: that explains why the documentation says what it says about nil. I don't really grok the implications
2016-04-25T14:06:07Z ecraven: well, a pair is a car and a cdr
2016-04-25T14:06:10Z ecraven: (a . b)
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2016-04-25T14:06:28Z ecraven: a list is just nested pairs
2016-04-25T14:06:35Z ecraven: (a . (b . (c ...)))
2016-04-25T14:07:02Z ecraven: (a b c d e) is just shorthand for (a . (b . (c . (d . (e . '())))))
2016-04-25T14:07:13Z manumanumanu: and an improper list isn't, I get it. I just fail to see why I would need one. You don't have to explain more
2016-04-25T14:07:30Z manumanumanu: it doesnt end with nil (or rather '())
2016-04-25T14:07:32Z ecraven: an improper list is the same thing, but the last cdr isn't '()
2016-04-25T14:08:07Z ecraven: the question isn't so much needing it, as it just existing because of the way lists are implemented
2016-04-25T14:09:15Z manumanumanu: I'll just write a wrapper around append that ill use so that I don't end up with an improper list.
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2016-04-25T14:12:32Z pierpa``: manumanumanu: if you end up with unwanted improper lists it means you have bugs in your program. You should fix your program, not try to mask the errors.
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2016-04-25T14:14:21Z manumanumanu: pierpa: I just think it is convenient to be able to write (my-append '(1 2 3 4 5) 6) instead of (append '(1 2 3 4 5) '(6)).
2016-04-25T14:14:34Z pierpa: it is not
2016-04-25T14:14:52Z pierpa: this way leads to madness
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2016-04-25T14:15:26Z ggole: Eh? How are you going to work with nested lists with that flavour of append?
2016-04-25T14:16:09Z manumanumanu: I'm programming for fun in spare time. let me discover my own errors then.
2016-04-25T14:16:18Z ggole: Fair enough.
2016-04-25T14:16:40Z manumanumanu: ggole: btw: how do you mean? it will of course allow me to add lists as well.
2016-04-25T14:16:47Z pierpa: btw, if you check the last list for properness, you will transform many algorithms which uses append from linear to quadratic
2016-04-25T14:18:08Z pierpa: or, better, you will add an extra linear factor in the complexity
2016-04-25T14:18:16Z taylan: (define (my-append lst obj) (append lst (list obj)))  ;where's the problem? :P
2016-04-25T14:18:50Z pierpa: it's what he wants
2016-04-25T14:18:55Z pierpa: *it's not what he wants
2016-04-25T14:19:05Z taylan: hell, (define (my-append lst . lst2) (append lst lst2))
2016-04-25T14:19:24Z ggole: I thought the suggestion was to check whether the second argument was a list, and append it if so, otherwise listify it and append that.
2016-04-25T14:19:25Z taylan: oh, did I misinterpret "(my-append '(1 2 3 4 5) 6) instead of (append '(1 2 3 4 5) '(6))" ?
2016-04-25T14:19:27Z ggole: Which is nuts.
2016-04-25T14:19:43Z pierpa: they want their append to work like regular append if the last argument is a proper list
2016-04-25T14:19:47Z ggole: But I may have misinterpreted.
2016-04-25T14:20:06Z ecraven: ggole: polymorphims!
2016-04-25T14:21:04Z pierpa: or switch to racket. In racket checking for proper listness id O(1) :)
2016-04-25T14:21:16Z taylan: pierpa: how?
2016-04-25T14:21:28Z pierpa: using proper-list?
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2016-04-25T14:22:04Z pierpa: no, sorry the name is list?
2016-04-25T14:22:11Z ggole: Does racket tag proper and non-proper conses differently?
2016-04-25T14:22:14Z morenoh149: https://github.com/keystonejs/keystone/blob/0e5a4a11d13d4ced058b392b119140f42116dc7e/fields/types/markdown/MarkdownField.js#L138 could someone explain what this is doing?
2016-04-25T14:22:25Z pierpa: yes
2016-04-25T14:22:32Z pierpa: ggole ^
2016-04-25T14:22:42Z ecraven: morenoh149: well, that is javascript, and this is #scheme?
2016-04-25T14:22:50Z ggole: I see the attraction of the idea.
2016-04-25T14:22:53Z morenoh149: oops https://github.com/technomancy/menelaus/blob/master/menelaus.scm#L27-L30
2016-04-25T14:23:11Z ecraven: pierpa: what's the overhead for that? you'd have to propagate it on every cons
2016-04-25T14:24:26Z pierpa: there's no overhead. each cons has a bit for this property
2016-04-25T14:24:38Z ecraven: pierpa: and you'd have to set that on every cons, based on the cdr
2016-04-25T14:24:50Z ecraven: so that cons is more expensive than "normal" cons
2016-04-25T14:25:02Z pierpa: in racket conses are immutable. you set once per cons
2016-04-25T14:25:15Z pierpa: immutable is the operative word here
2016-04-25T14:25:16Z ggole: There would be many situations in which the tag would be evident without checking, too
2016-04-25T14:25:21Z ggole: Depending on how clever the compiler is.
2016-04-25T14:25:46Z pierpa: ggole, is much simpler than this
2016-04-25T14:26:11Z pierpa: no cleverness involved at all
2016-04-25T14:27:03Z manumanumanu: So, now when I have got you all going I have a question about tail-recursion :) Say I want to build a list using a tail call. using (cons [....]) means I have a new stack frame, no?
2016-04-25T14:27:38Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-04-25T14:28:11Z manumanumanu: and if I use an accumulator, do I have to create a _new_ list every tail call?
2016-04-25T14:28:46Z pierpa: you *have* to do nothing. You *can* do whatever you like
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2016-04-25T14:29:38Z manumanumanu: oh wait. shit. I got it. sorry. I'll keep my mouth shut for a couple of minutes.
2016-04-25T14:30:30Z morenoh149: ecraven: bump
2016-04-25T14:30:31Z taylan: manumanumanu: no shame during learning :)
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2016-04-25T14:33:08Z morenoh149: can a define have two things follow it? (define (x) (foo) (bar)) ?
2016-04-25T14:33:21Z manumanumanu: taylan: My wife  kids are out of town, and I have taken up programming again. It was a hobby of mine in the early nineties, and I the last thing I wrote was a shitty game in turbo pascal :)
2016-04-25T14:34:31Z taylan: heh.  Scheme is a great place to pick it up again IMO
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2016-04-25T14:35:19Z ecraven: morenoh149: yes, but the value returned from x will be the value of (bar).
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2016-04-25T14:35:26Z ecraven: whatever (foo) returns will be thrown away
2016-04-25T14:36:29Z ecraven: manumanumanu: just to clarify, that cons only influences tail recursion if the recursive call is inside it
2016-04-25T14:36:55Z ecraven: manumanumanu: usually you just cons a new pair onto an existing list
2016-04-25T14:37:06Z ecraven: and often, at the end, reverse the entire list
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2016-04-25T14:38:11Z manumanumanu: ecraven: yeah, I realised that and felt stupid
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2016-04-25T14:39:00Z morenoh149: now what happens if we do (define (x) (foo) (x))?
2016-04-25T14:39:08Z ecraven: Riastradh: concerning MIT/GNU Scheme: is the original s-expression form of a define-syntax kept anywhere? like PP often displays the named-lambda form
2016-04-25T14:39:18Z ecraven: morenoh149: reality implodes!
2016-04-25T14:39:19Z morenoh149: is that a recursive function? a while loop?
2016-04-25T14:39:31Z ecraven: well, to get the value of x, you call x
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2016-04-25T14:39:34Z ecraven: what do you think happens?
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2016-04-25T14:39:45Z morenoh149: that's what this is https://github.com/technomancy/menelaus/blob/master/menelaus.scm#L27-L30
2016-04-25T14:39:56Z morenoh149: so it's going to peg the cpu or?
2016-04-25T14:40:13Z ecraven: it just keeps running
2016-04-25T14:40:20Z ecraven: it's like while(true) { ... }
2016-04-25T14:40:32Z ecraven: it only pegs the cpu if you don't do any waiting inside the loop
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2016-04-25T14:45:46Z pierpa: it depends on what is foo
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2016-04-25T15:48:39Z ecraven: hm.. now that I partly understand how geiser works, chibi might be a nice target :)
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2016-04-25T19:19:59Z jcowan: Well, I'm now convinced that string-contains-right is worth having, but is string-split-right?  It doesn't make sense unless you limit the number of splits and just want the last N of them, but in that situation it might save quite a bit of work.
2016-04-25T19:21:20Z ecraven: jcowan: I can imagine getting just the right-most thing in a csv, for example
2016-04-25T19:21:49Z jcowan nods.
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2016-04-25T19:36:49Z qu1j0t3: jcowan: o/
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2016-04-25T19:37:38Z jcowan: hey ho
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2016-04-25T19:43:48Z C-Keen: I have used string-split-right a couple of times
2016-04-25T19:44:01Z C-Keen: but I could go without
2016-04-25T19:44:36Z C-Keen: most of the time the input in question isn't that huge and one could drop the first entries of matches
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2016-04-25T20:01:05Z ecraven: C-Keen: it does add up when processing long log files
2016-04-25T20:01:17Z C-Keen: #t
2016-04-25T20:01:18Z ecraven: but it's more of a convenience than an absolute necessity
2016-04-25T20:01:49Z ecraven: if it isn't just a trivial combination of existing procedures, I'd keep it, just to give implementors a chance to do something clever if needed
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2016-04-26T03:49:37Z krypt: can I get some feedback on my implementation of an exercise from SICP?
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2016-04-26T03:55:16Z qu1j0t3: krypt: sure!
2016-04-26T03:55:27Z krypt: qu1j0t3: http://pastebin.com/nawU3W6v
2016-04-26T03:55:42Z krypt: I just realized it doesn't work if you input the same number twice
2016-04-26T03:56:01Z krypt: and upon looking at other implementations its not very good...
2016-04-26T03:56:16Z qu1j0t3 checks his answer
2016-04-26T03:56:47Z qu1j0t3: hm, okay, i didn't check that one in :|
2016-04-26T03:58:43Z qu1j0t3: right, i think you will need to include equality
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2016-04-26T05:54:22Z marlun: I'm going through sicp and I would like to be able to write code in vim, intepret it and show a result. If I install gnu/mit scheme will it be able to interpret a file and show a result or do i need to write the code in the terminal when I've started the scheme interpeter?
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2016-04-26T05:56:12Z ecraven: marlun: I don't use vim, but I think there's some sort of Scheme mode to do what you want
2016-04-26T05:57:10Z ecraven: marlun: google says this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5352997/programming-schemeracket-with-vim-how-to-get-started
2016-04-26T06:00:21Z marlun: I tried Racket before but it just seemed to come with a lot of extras?
2016-04-26T06:00:38Z ecraven: that also says he used it with MIT/GNU Scheme
2016-04-26T06:00:46Z ecraven: see the link in the accepted answer
2016-04-26T06:05:42Z ecraven: also, you might try in #vim, maybe someone there knows more
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2016-04-26T07:07:39Z manumanumanu: marlun: is vim a requirement? I am a new spacemacs convert, which gives you the best of vim and emacs. it is a really nice environment for writing scheme. auto completion and everyithing :)
2016-04-26T07:08:45Z manumanumanu: marlun: but if you are doing it on a remote computer over ssh, running emacs on the remote computer is slow. There are some work-arounds, but if you are locked to the remote computer, vim is a lot nicer.
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2016-04-26T08:31:32Z ecraven: foof`: quick question, when running    tee /tmp/log-in | chibi-scheme | tee /tmp/log-out (to trace input and output for chibi), I see "tee: read error: Resource temporarily unavailable"
2016-04-26T08:31:39Z ecraven: does chibi do anything strange with stdout?
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2016-04-26T08:42:30Z ecraven: foof`: also, how do I get the current module at the repl, and is there a way to get all identifiers visible in a module?
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2016-04-26T10:51:15Z Guthur: Is there any good resources on embedding a scheme implementation into a C++ application?
2016-04-26T11:02:50Z leot: ecraven: I've noticed something similar when packaging chibi-scheme to pkgsrc, but unfortunately I was not able to properly debug them (the problem was `gmake: write error: stdout' and as a workaround I have added the `-s' flag to gmake)
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2016-04-26T11:03:09Z ecraven: leot: might be my fault, but it seems something strange is going on here
2016-04-26T11:03:23Z ecraven: does anyone know what the default module when chibi starts up is called?
2016-04-26T11:03:33Z ecraven: it seems to not be (user)
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2016-04-26T11:10:08Z webshinra: hello world
2016-04-26T11:13:10Z ecraven: hello webshinra
2016-04-26T11:13:33Z ecraven: how do I "enter" a module in chibi scheme's repl? to evaluate expressions in that context?
2016-04-26T11:15:23Z webshinra: good question, i'm a guile user
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2016-04-26T11:21:33Z ecraven: leot: fyi, it seems the problem is chibi's stdin, not stdout
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2016-04-26T13:05:45Z retroj: taylan: hi, ping again
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2016-04-26T13:35:42Z taylan: retroj: pong again :)
2016-04-26T13:36:41Z taylan: retroj: FYI I always read highlights later on; if you do the same then we can spare the pinging
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2016-04-26T13:48:44Z retroj: taylan: okay :-)
2016-04-26T13:49:06Z retroj: taylan: i'm a good bit of the way done with the setup files to install bytestructures in chicken
2016-04-26T13:50:23Z retroj: taylan: so far with manual testing, i've run into one problem:  (define-bytestructure-accessors my-struct my-struct-ref-helper my-struct-ref my-struct-set!) => Error: unbound variable: my-struct-ref-helper
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2016-04-26T13:53:02Z retroj: taylan: also, chicken's extension system needs version numbers and tagged releases.  i didn't see any in the project, so how would you like to do that?
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2016-04-26T14:15:37Z foof`: ecraven: if by strange you include toggling blocking/non-blocking, then yes
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2016-04-26T14:22:04Z taylan: retroj: Chicken has no syntax-case, does it?  the (optional) macro API requires that.
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2016-04-26T14:23:19Z taylan: retroj: Chicken has near complete R7RS support IIRC.  the R7RS library system doesn't support versioning per se (though components of the library name may be integers)...
2016-04-26T14:24:50Z taylan: does it barf on the R7RS libs?  I wasn't intending to support Chicken specifically, though if anyone contributes clean, stand-alone library boilerplate that doesn't affect other files in the project much, I can include it.
2016-04-26T14:26:34Z retroj: taylan: the way i have it structured, all of the files needed for chicken are in their own subdirectory
2016-04-26T14:27:15Z jcowan: taylan: Chicken does not have syntax-case, only explicit renaming.
2016-04-26T14:27:50Z retroj: taylan: it was only necessary to have one alternative version of a file.. there is an alternative version of r7.sld in chicken/ that is needed so that imports work during build
2016-04-26T14:28:06Z retroj: jcowan: ah, that explains it.  so we can implement the macro features separately for chicken
2016-04-26T14:28:07Z jcowan: Also, this is not library versioning a la R6RS, but the ordinary sort of versioned releases used for (almost) all software nowadays.
2016-04-26T14:28:44Z jcowan: retroj: Or leave them out: Guile is a bytecode compiler, so needs the speed boost provided by compile-time operations; Chicken programs might not.
2016-04-26T14:29:08Z retroj: jcowan: okay.  i'll have a go at it, but will keep that in mind
2016-04-26T14:29:35Z retroj: my main use of bytestructures could use all the speed boost i can give it :-)
2016-04-26T14:29:37Z dpk: Chicken also has implicit renaming and syntax-rules
2016-04-26T14:30:00Z jcowan: Pretty much all Schemes have syntax-rules nowadays.
2016-04-26T14:30:13Z jcowan: Implicit renaming is currently unique to Chicken
2016-04-26T14:30:20Z jcowan: AFAIK
2016-04-26T14:32:16Z retroj: taylan: the way i've done versioning for large chicken projects is to include a file version.scm in the project root, that performs (define version "x.y.z")  then any other script that needs it can just include that file.  chicken's extension system uses a .meta file and a .setup file that both reference the version string
2016-04-26T14:33:48Z retroj: taylan: then tagging the release just means doing: git tag -a x.y.z -m 'version x.y.z'
2016-04-26T14:34:13Z retroj: (or, -m may need to be before the tag name, i forget)
2016-04-26T14:34:24Z jcowan should write up a page on which Schemes have which macro systems
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2016-04-26T14:35:50Z ecraven: foof`: is there any way to get at the lambda list (the parameters) of a function in chibi?
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2016-04-26T14:36:53Z ecraven: foof`: I'm walking an environment's env-parent, and calling env-exports on each, does this give me all accessible identifiers in the original environment?
2016-04-26T14:37:04Z ecraven: foof`: (this is about getting geiser to talk to chibi)
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2016-04-26T14:56:54Z xieyuheng: chez is open ! :: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme
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2016-04-26T14:58:14Z taylan: xieyuheng: great news!
2016-04-26T14:58:22Z xieyuheng: :)
2016-04-26T14:58:35Z ecraven: wow, did anyone try to build it yet?
2016-04-26T14:58:42Z retroj: taylan: here is my development fork of bytestructures with the basic installation files for chicken: https://github.com/retroj/scheme-bytestructures
2016-04-26T14:58:43Z xieyuheng: I am cloning
2016-04-26T14:58:52Z jcowan_: Hurrah!
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2016-04-26T15:00:01Z ecraven: exciting, running ./configure now
2016-04-26T15:00:08Z ecraven: downloading nanopass :D
2016-04-26T15:00:15Z jcowan: all the Schemers on the planet pounce on it
2016-04-26T15:00:30Z ecraven: hehe, well, it is one of the faster Schemes
2016-04-26T15:01:39Z retroj: taylan: are any of the submodules in bytestructures for internal use only, such that they should not be included in the global list of installed extensions?
2016-04-26T15:01:52Z jcowan: So they say.  I've never seen it before, only Petite.
2016-04-26T15:02:08Z ecraven: now's your chance :)
2016-04-26T15:02:15Z ecraven: seems to build fine
2016-04-26T15:02:22Z ecraven: just need to get it to run without actually installing it
2016-04-26T15:02:32Z davexunit: there seems to be some blobs in the repo
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2016-04-26T15:03:10Z jcowan: Doesn't build for me: I get a C warning that's promoted to an error
2016-04-26T15:03:29Z jcowan: ecraven: What system are you building on?
2016-04-26T15:03:39Z ecraven: 64 bit arch linux
2016-04-26T15:03:45Z ecraven: I'll whip up a PKGBUILD later
2016-04-26T15:03:58Z ecraven: have to run now :-/ looking forward to playing around with this later
2016-04-26T15:04:26Z jcowan: I'm trying to build on gcc 6.0.0, which is the current installed.
2016-04-26T15:04:34Z ecraven: I'm on 5.3
2016-04-26T15:04:59Z ecraven: I'm getting malformed fasl-object header in ../../boot/a6le
2016-04-26T15:05:21Z ecraven: anyway, have to go, see you all later!
2016-04-26T15:06:03Z ecraven: ah, the bootstrapping issues, you need chez to build chez
2016-04-26T15:06:40Z taylan: retroj: hmm, everything whose exports aren't included in r7.sld, I'd say
2016-04-26T15:06:49Z retroj: taylan: okay
2016-04-26T15:07:27Z taylan: from a glance: bitfields, explicit-endianness, numeric-metadata
2016-04-26T15:10:10Z jcowan: I removed all instances of -Werror from the codebase (in the c/Mf* files) and it builds.  Running tests now
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2016-04-26T15:20:19Z taylan: retroj: did you make any changes outside of adding the 'chicken' directory?  I'm about to push a commit that moves the whole library file tree into a dedicated directory; I hope I don't give you rebase/merge hell.
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2016-04-26T15:21:13Z retroj: taylan: just a trivial change to r7/struct.sld
2016-04-26T15:21:18Z taylan: ok
2016-04-26T15:21:25Z taylan: (why didn't I just check the commit logs :) )
2016-04-26T15:22:32Z taylan: pushed it
2016-04-26T15:22:48Z retroj: thanks.. when chicken support is ready, i should be able to give you a single patch
2016-04-26T15:23:27Z jcowan: ghu, these are comprehensive tests
2016-04-26T15:24:22Z ecraven: jcowan: ah, good point, make test runs
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2016-04-26T15:28:35Z crime: yeah thats crazy, about chez
2016-04-26T15:28:41Z crime: never would've guessed
2016-04-26T15:29:05Z davexunit: I never understood why it was kept under lock and key like that
2016-04-26T15:29:15Z davexunit: good that it's finally free
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2016-04-26T15:33:07Z jcowan: It kept Dybvig alive for a long time; then he sold it to Cisco, Ghu knows why.  They finally seem to have realized that the market for commercial Scheme compilers, however excellent, is nil, and have open-sourced it.
2016-04-26T15:33:29Z jcowan: (That is, I don't know why Cisco would buy it; I can see why Dybvig would sell it.)
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2016-04-26T15:38:30Z qu1j0t3: hehe
2016-04-26T15:38:56Z qu1j0t3: it got disparaged in here recently for being closed, so maybe that memo hasn't reached everyone?
2016-04-26T15:39:23Z qu1j0t3: was it recent?
2016-04-26T15:40:13Z jcowan: 1 day ago
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2016-04-26T15:41:08Z qu1j0t3: oh.
2016-04-26T15:41:13Z qu1j0t3: well that's nice to hear
2016-04-26T15:42:31Z retroj: taylan: with the new directory structure, should the chicken directory be a subdirectory of bytestructures?  it's mainly installation files, and just one source file
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2016-04-26T15:46:16Z taylan: retroj: in most Schemes, there's a library path, in which libraries are searched by using their names as a relative path, so e.g. (bytestructures r7) will be searched for in $path/bytestructures/r7.  I did this restructuring so one can simply add the path to the git repo to one's library path and have it work.  does such a thing apply to Chicken too?
2016-04-26T15:48:40Z taylan: or another way to ask might be, does it *need* to be there for things to work right?  if not, I'd leave it outside I guess.
2016-04-26T15:49:52Z taylan: be back in an hour or so
2016-04-26T15:51:56Z jcowan: taylan: In Chicken there is a library path, but (foo bar) is interpreted as foo.bar rather than foo/bar at the file system level.
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2016-04-26T16:00:42Z names: ccl-logbot sethalves shymega annodomini mejja badkins choas nanoz xieyuheng blackwolf jcowan kuribas crime ASau civodul oleo profess grettke gravicappa brendyn sz0 webshinra _mjl lritter vydd AlexDenisov grublet2 greatscottttt mjuhl stepnem leot ggole DGASAU marlun pobivan karswell bb010g wailord cibs yrdz`` Necrosporus ArneBab_ retroj _sjs dsp lloda drdo dmiles balkamos datagrok paroneayea githogori Khisanth m0li aries_liuxueyang manumanumanu cjh`
2016-04-26T16:00:42Z names: fadein cross atomx nckx nisstyre_ petercommand Menche gabot eli` aeth jcmdln kuthurium chu clog chishiki leppie shardz micmus Neet neuri8 mach evhan adu rx80 mikeyhc averell foof` zbigniew ohama Guest55535 metaf5 taylan nowhereman akkad snow_bckspc cantstanya greghendershott pchrist_ eska askatasuna finnrobi harmchop _0x5eb_ yosafbridge samth eatonphil ineiros leo_song jim X-Scale hiredman hive-mind rotty Kryo SirDayBat ec\ rpcope em tokik samw3 gnomon
2016-04-26T16:00:42Z names: mj12`_ oskarth jrslepak gf3 DerGuteM1 _chazu stux16777216Away r0kc4t mlaine SHODAN aleogen m1dnight_ ecraven fizzie sytse antoszka dpk eagleflo low-profile dTal dualbus benaiah stamourv Guest74977 mrowe dxtr stasku____ tm512 mario-goulart magically drforr1 Guest33283 stephe_ jyc_ carc renopt defanor mg_ ggherdov ELLIOTTCABLE ozzloy copec drot tristero cojy rmrfchik woona C-Keen taij33n kwmiebach vikraman nee` tessier emmanueloga nilern dsp- lalex Tenhi
2016-04-26T16:00:42Z names: na_th_an Kooda aap asumu pflanze twem2_ ByronJohnson Blkt vifino CustosL1m3n profan amoe abbe rsully jrdnull juanfra keemyb cky snits_ jackdaniel NaNDude GGMethos cmatei XTL ski fgudin dan64 lmat LeoNerd qu1j0t3 kbtr z0d eMBee davexunit nolski joast krypt klutomet1s wasamasa octo- micro` ft moredhel wingo
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2016-04-26T16:02:07Z leppie: Should be in #treason!
2016-04-26T16:03:01Z jcowan: okay, a few tests fail
2016-04-26T16:03:17Z ecraven: hm. both chez and mit-scheme want /usr/bin/scheme
2016-04-26T16:03:33Z ecraven: and the corresponding manpage
2016-04-26T16:04:14Z leppie: anyone tried a windows build yet?
2016-04-26T16:04:29Z mejja: file an issue...  only mit scheme is scheme..
2016-04-26T16:04:39Z leppie: is there a #chez channel yet?
2016-04-26T16:04:53Z jcowan: There is now!
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2016-04-26T16:04:58Z mejja: why?
2016-04-26T16:06:15Z ecraven: mejja: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme.git
2016-04-26T16:06:19Z ecraven: licensed as APL
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2016-04-26T16:22:00Z ecraven: just in case anyone is interested, there's an archlinux aur package for chez, chez-scheme-git
2016-04-26T16:23:44Z badkins: I think Kent's Scheme book is one of my all-time favorite technical books - just beautiful. Because of that I had a positive impression of Chez Scheme. I am curious (truly not trolling) of any advantages Chez has over Racket other than maybe being truer to the Scheme heritage.
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2016-04-26T16:24:07Z ecraven: badkins: it's probably many times faster, but has less libraries
2016-04-26T16:24:11Z retroj: i'm thinking that for chicken, i'll arrange for bytestructures module names to omit the 'r7' component.  it will be a little cleaner with the conventions for extensions in chicken
2016-04-26T16:24:20Z ecraven: as it was not open source, not many people got to use it
2016-04-26T16:24:36Z badkins: Well, if it really is many times faster, that's a pretty big deal to me.
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2016-04-26T16:25:01Z badkins: Even 2x or 3x is pretty impactful.
2016-04-26T16:25:05Z ecraven: try it out
2016-04-26T16:25:07Z ecraven: see how you like it
2016-04-26T16:25:21Z badkins was waiting for the build dust to settle :)
2016-04-26T16:25:29Z ecraven: badkins: what system are you on?
2016-04-26T16:25:36Z ecraven: it built without a problem here
2016-04-26T16:25:41Z badkins: Dev is Mac OSX, deploy is Ubuntu
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2016-04-26T16:25:52Z ecraven: not sure about mac os x, ubuntu should work fine
2016-04-26T16:25:59Z ecraven: ask in the brand new #chez :)
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2016-04-26T16:32:21Z qu1j0t3: well there were always os x binaries
2016-04-26T16:32:33Z qu1j0t3: ooh, nice, 32 bit PPC support
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2016-04-26T16:32:40Z jcowan: retroj: agree about omitting r7
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2016-04-26T16:39:02Z retroj: k
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2016-04-26T16:53:00Z jcowan: What would be a good name for an unfold function that actually doesn't unfold into a data structure?
2016-04-26T16:53:42Z jcowan: Standard unfolds are (unfold stop? mapper successor seed), where successor is repeatedly applied to seed to generate inputs, mapper is used to take them to the outputs to be put in the list or string or set or what have you, and stop? says when to stop.
2016-04-26T16:54:23Z jcowan: My idea is to replace mapper with a side-effecting function which is called on the successive seeds, and the whole procedure returns nothing.
2016-04-26T16:54:55Z dpk: wow, they finally did it
2016-04-26T16:55:02Z dpk: (re Chez Scheme)
2016-04-26T16:55:59Z jcowan: Yes.  Discussion in #chez
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2016-04-26T17:00:34Z rain1: hi
2016-04-26T17:00:41Z rain1: anyone cross compile chez to openbsd?
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2016-04-26T17:24:13Z gnomon: Aw man, no significant history in the Chez release prior to the release?  Pity.
2016-04-26T17:24:22Z taylan: did #racket hear the news about Chez yet?
2016-04-26T17:24:41Z rain1: gnomon, best we got is http://www.scheme.com/releasenotes.html
2016-04-26T17:24:56Z jcowan: Someone with Racket-credibility (i.e. not me) should mention it
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2016-04-26T17:25:40Z gnomon: rain1, yeah, it's not nothing but it's great.
2016-04-26T17:25:49Z taylan: ah they have channel logs
2016-04-26T17:26:00Z taylan: heh yeah, they've been talking about it already
2016-04-26T17:26:08Z jcowan: taylan: URL?
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2016-04-26T17:26:47Z taylan: it's in their /topic  https://botbot.me/freenode/racket/  actually, just one person mentioning playing with a Chez REPL...
2016-04-26T17:28:17Z jcowan: That might just mean petite
2016-04-26T17:28:18Z taylan: I don't exactly have Racket-credibility but I posted it anyway
2016-04-26T17:28:37Z taylan: looking closer at the logs, didn't see any explicit mention
2016-04-26T17:28:51Z taylan: I figure some people there might be interested in it
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2016-04-26T18:03:44Z xieyuheng: foof`: hi would you update match.賽車麼
2016-04-26T18:03:51Z xieyuheng: foof`: hi would you update match.scm for chez ?
2016-04-26T18:06:14Z xieyuheng: foof`: chez can not use _ in the literal list of (syntax-rules (...) ...)
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2016-04-26T18:11:17Z jcowan: xieyuheng: Yes, that's pretty modern
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2016-04-26T18:17:07Z xieyuheng: jcowan: you mean a imp should not use  _ in the literal list of (syntax-rules (...) ...) ?
2016-04-26T18:17:45Z jcowan: It wasn't until r7rs clarified it that it was clear you could do that.
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2016-04-26T18:18:06Z xieyuheng: oh I see
2016-04-26T18:18:47Z xieyuheng: it seems hard to make match.scm useable in chez
2016-04-26T18:19:06Z ecraven: well, chez' syntax-rules could be fixed :)
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2016-04-26T18:20:48Z rain1: I think thats a better approach
2016-04-26T18:21:24Z jcowan: Debatably _ is a bad choice as a syntax keyword anyhow
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2016-04-26T18:48:24Z lalex: soo, I'm implementing some scheme dialect. I followed the R6RS process back then quite closely, and it was quite controversial. and I wonder, in the light of R7RS small, whether to orient at R5RS or at R7RS (small). some decisions in R7RS make totally sense to me, like makingit case sensitive, or adding more precise/clear division operations. and of course the library/import system which makes sense a lot to
2016-04-26T18:48:30Z lalex:  me.
2016-04-26T18:49:34Z rain1: I'd say go with R7RS
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2016-04-26T18:51:32Z lalex: yes, I guess I will. but I wonder why R5RS is viewed superior by some. is it it's limited scope, it's "smallness"?
2016-04-26T18:51:57Z mejja: Don't do it! We don't need one more scheme implementations.
2016-04-26T18:52:13Z atomx: lalex: why do you want to implement a scheme dialect ?
2016-04-26T18:52:39Z rain1: mejja: please don't ...
2016-04-26T18:52:58Z rain1: lalex: well R5RS was a good point of maturity for scheme where it was minimal and stable
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2016-04-26T18:53:23Z atomx: what is the difference between r5rs and r4rs ?
2016-04-26T18:53:45Z wasamasa: mejja: you're pretending one more makes a difference...
2016-04-26T18:53:50Z lalex: rain1: so R6RS stirred in the pool of maturity and stableness and became a mess which R7RS tries to clean up a bit?
2016-04-26T18:53:56Z rain1: yeah
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2016-04-26T18:55:49Z lalex: atomx: well, I needed something that is better than Lua, which compiles down to Lua, which has Lispy syntax which I like. and I choosed Scheme as orientation for the base primitives I want to implement to actually write useful code later. Lua is in this case embedded in a larger runtime.
2016-04-26T18:55:53Z wasamasa: mejja: it's a rather funny thing to say about a programming language specifically made for experimentation :D
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2016-04-26T18:56:10Z lalex: while Lua is already quite lean and lispy, I kind of feel some limitations sometimes w.r.t. expressiveness
2016-04-26T18:56:29Z rain1: lalex: do you target lua directly or lua bytecode?
2016-04-26T18:56:36Z lalex: rain1: Lua directly
2016-04-26T18:56:43Z rain1: interesting! do you have a repo i can follow?
2016-04-26T18:56:46Z lalex: haven't looked int othe bytecode yet
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2016-04-26T18:57:44Z lalex: rain1: in a few days I will probably put it up on some github repo. currently it's not properly ported to standard Lua5.3 yet as it depends on some custom functions from the sorrounding runtime.
2016-04-26T18:58:47Z lalex: it's at least complete enough that I work on auxilary stuff like documentation and error reporting.
2016-04-26T18:59:46Z rain1: great :)
2016-04-26T19:00:34Z lalex: it's a difference when you just want to implement something for the sake of implementing it or whether you actually need it and want to use it later. in the former case most stuff does not get beyond implementing if/car/cdr/+/-/*/defmacro/display
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2016-04-26T20:12:26Z JordiGH: There's a #chez channel now. Didn't know that would be such a big deal.
2016-04-26T20:13:00Z ecraven: JordiGH: we'll see how long it stays that active :)
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2016-04-26T20:14:02Z gnomon: ecraven, likely at least until people get it building!
2016-04-26T20:14:07Z gnomon: JordiGH, it's a big deal.
2016-04-26T20:14:28Z jcowan: It's like we just found out that Elvis is not only not dead, but he has a studio album out and may be going on tour soon
2016-04-26T20:14:30Z ecraven: gnomon: don't they? it builds fine on linux and mostly fine on os x, I think
2016-04-26T20:14:38Z ecraven: the bsds don't work yet, I think
2016-04-26T20:14:52Z JordiGH: ecraven: Because of the gcc requirement?
2016-04-26T20:15:07Z Riastradh: Is Chez free software yet?
2016-04-26T20:15:11Z JordiGH: Riastradh: It is.
2016-04-26T20:15:24Z Riastradh: Oh, cool.
2016-04-26T20:15:30Z JordiGH: Apache v2
2016-04-26T20:15:37Z ecraven: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme
2016-04-26T20:15:44Z JordiGH: With something that looks like a CLA but doesn't quite seem to be a CLA.
2016-04-26T20:15:49Z ecraven: JordiGH: because of missing bootstrapping files, I think
2016-04-26T20:15:55Z ecraven: CLA?
2016-04-26T20:16:00Z JordiGH: Contributor license agreement.
2016-04-26T20:16:04Z rain1: i bootstrapped it on linux, no luck on bsd
2016-04-26T20:16:18Z gnomon: ecraven, yeah, I was mostly joking.
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2016-04-26T20:18:38Z JordiGH: This is what sounds like a CLA, but a pretty weak one: "By submitting a contribution, a Contributor certifies that the Contributor is the sole creator of the contribution and/or has the right under all applicable intellectual property laws to provide the contribution to the Project under the terms of the Apache 2.0 license."
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2016-04-26T20:19:09Z JordiGH: Certainly nothing that has to be signed, so, it doesn't seem like a big deal.
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2016-04-26T20:34:31Z ecraven: foof`: a very humble attempt, completion seems to work, but rather slowly :-/  https://github.com/ecraven/geiser/tree/geiser-chibi
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2016-04-26T20:51:40Z wingo: rain1: what did you bootstrap it from?
2016-04-26T20:51:47Z wingo: petite chez?
2016-04-26T20:52:10Z rain1: it includes bootstrap binaries so i did a rebuild from the included a6li (linux 64 bit)
2016-04-26T20:52:43Z rain1: I was trying to go from petite chez to compiling the whole thing on openbsd but it didn't even run
2016-04-26T20:52:53Z wingo: i see
2016-04-26T20:53:37Z rain1: a6le*
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2016-04-26T21:07:27Z leppie: rudybot: #!eof
2016-04-26T21:07:28Z rudybot: leppie: how does this works ? ^D to notify the EOF ?
2016-04-26T21:07:34Z leppie: :D
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2016-04-26T21:08:14Z wasamasa: rudybot: eval #!eof
2016-04-26T21:08:16Z rudybot: wasamasa: your sandbox is ready
2016-04-26T21:08:16Z rudybot: wasamasa: error: eval:1:0: read: #! not enabled in the current context
2016-04-26T21:08:28Z wasamasa hides
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2016-04-26T21:09:20Z leppie thinks there was a good reason to ignore #!eof by default on IronScheme :p
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2016-04-26T21:23:52Z Necrosporus: (let ((a 5)) (define b (+ a 1)))
2016-04-26T21:23:59Z Necrosporus: I think I read it somewhere
2016-04-26T21:24:12Z Necrosporus: but how do I make local definitions within definitions?
2016-04-26T21:24:26Z wasamasa: just like that
2016-04-26T21:24:26Z Necrosporus: So I want to make a hidden and b visible outside
2016-04-26T21:24:30Z wasamasa: put a define into a define
2016-04-26T21:24:30Z rain1: how about use LET or LETREC
2016-04-26T21:24:38Z leppie: Necrosporus: just like javascript
2016-04-26T21:25:08Z Necrosporus:  begin (possibly implicit): no expression after a;   sequence of internal definitions;   in: (begin (define b (+ a 1)))
2016-04-26T21:25:27Z rain1: (let ((a 5)) (let ((b (+ a 1))) ...))
2016-04-26T21:25:54Z cojy: oh do you want the a to be local Necrosporus ?
2016-04-26T21:26:05Z leppie: rudybot: ((let ((a 5)) (define b (+ a 1)) b) 42)
2016-04-26T21:26:06Z rudybot: leppie: your sandbox is ready
2016-04-26T21:26:06Z rudybot: leppie: error: application: not a procedure; <NEWLINE>  expected a procedure that can be applied to arguments <NEWLINE>   given: 6 <NEWLINE>   arguments...: <NEWLINE>    42
2016-04-26T21:26:07Z Necrosporus: Yes, a local, b global
2016-04-26T21:26:09Z cojy: (define b (let ((a 5)) (+ a 1)))
2016-04-26T21:26:23Z rain1: aha sorry i misunderstood
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2016-04-26T21:27:33Z leppie: No you cant do that, unless b is defined in the global scope already (and you use set! to redefine it)
2016-04-26T21:28:55Z ecraven: that stuff only works with defun in CL
2016-04-26T21:29:27Z rain1: I like the solution by cojy
2016-04-26T21:30:24Z Necrosporus: rudybot, (define (fib n) (define (fib-iter a b iter) (if (= n iter) a (fib-iter b (+ a b) (+ iter 1)))) (fib-iter 0 1 0))
2016-04-26T21:30:25Z rudybot: Necrosporus: your sandbox is ready
2016-04-26T21:30:25Z rudybot: Necrosporus: Done.
2016-04-26T21:30:37Z Necrosporus: rudybot, (fib 14)
2016-04-26T21:30:38Z rudybot: Necrosporus: ; Value: 377
2016-04-26T21:30:59Z Necrosporus: it seems to work this way
2016-04-26T21:31:17Z Necrosporus: rudybot, (fib-iter 1 2 3)
2016-04-26T21:31:18Z rudybot: Necrosporus: error: fib-iter: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2016-04-26T21:31:31Z Necrosporus: fib-iter became local to fib
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2016-04-26T21:34:50Z Necrosporus: Definitions are valid in some, but not all, contexts where expressions are allowed. They are valid only at the top level of a <program> and at the beginning of a <body>.
2016-04-26T21:34:57Z leppie: Necrosporus: It is not bound, so you cant call it, even though the value might be bound to fib
2016-04-26T21:35:09Z pierpa: (define b (let ((a 5)) (lambda () (+ a 1))))
2016-04-26T21:35:34Z leppie: Necrosporus: This is the basics of lexical binding
2016-04-26T21:35:44Z Necrosporus: leppie, it's what I wanted to get
2016-04-26T21:35:56Z Necrosporus: seems like I didn't need let afterall
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2016-04-26T21:51:20Z atomx: rudybot: (+ 1 1)
2016-04-26T21:51:20Z rudybot: atomx: your sandbox is ready
2016-04-26T21:51:21Z rudybot: atomx: ; Value: 2
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2016-04-26T21:52:59Z atomx: rudybot: ((lambda(n)((lambda(x) (x x n)) (lambda(s n) (if (<= n 0) 1 (* n (s s (- n 1))))))) 10)
2016-04-26T21:53:00Z rudybot: atomx: ; Value: 3628800
2016-04-26T21:53:06Z atomx: rudybot: ((lambda(n)((lambda(x) (x x n)) (lambda(s n) (if (<= n 0) 1 (* n (s s (- n 1))))))) 3)
2016-04-26T21:53:06Z rudybot: atomx: ; Value: 6
2016-04-26T21:53:12Z atomx: rudybot: ((lambda(n)((lambda(x) (x x n)) (lambda(s n) (if (<= n 0) 1 (* n (s s (- n 1))))))) 5)
2016-04-26T21:53:12Z rudybot: atomx: ; Value: 120
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2016-04-26T21:57:27Z Necrosporus: rudybot, (define (fib n) (if (> n 1) (+ (fib (- n 1)) (fib (- n 2))) n))
2016-04-26T21:57:27Z rudybot: Necrosporus: Done.
2016-04-26T21:57:34Z Necrosporus: rudybot, (fib 12)
2016-04-26T21:57:34Z rudybot: Necrosporus: ; Value: 144
2016-04-26T21:57:37Z Necrosporus: rudybot, (fib 120)
2016-04-26T21:57:47Z rudybot: Necrosporus: error: with-limit: out of time
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2016-04-26T21:58:02Z Necrosporus: rudybot, (fib 40)
2016-04-26T21:58:06Z rudybot: Necrosporus: ; Value: 102334155
2016-04-26T21:58:09Z Necrosporus: rudybot, (fib 45)
2016-04-26T21:58:19Z rudybot: Necrosporus: error: with-limit: out of time
2016-04-26T21:58:23Z Necrosporus: rudybot, (fib 42)
2016-04-26T21:58:33Z rudybot: Necrosporus: ; Value: 267914296
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2016-04-26T21:58:37Z atomx: rudybot: ((lambda(n)((lambda(x) (x x n)) (lambda(s n) (if (<= n 0) 1 (* n (s s (- n 1))))))) 42)
2016-04-26T21:58:37Z rudybot: atomx: ; Value: 1405006117752879898543142606244511569936384000000000
2016-04-26T21:58:47Z Necrosporus: rudybot, (fib 43)
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2016-04-26T21:58:57Z rudybot: Necrosporus: error: with-limit: out of time
2016-04-26T21:59:12Z Necrosporus: binary search completed
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2016-04-26T22:00:02Z Necrosporus: So we know what is the question, 42 is answer for
2016-04-26T22:00:28Z Necrosporus: The biggest number rudybot allows to calculate fibonacci for with naive algorithm
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2016-04-26T22:05:10Z atomx: rudybot: ((lambda(n)((lambda(x) (x x 0 1)) (lambda(s n a0 a1) (if (= n 0) a0 (s s (- n 1) a1 (+ a1 a0)))))) 3)
2016-04-26T22:05:11Z rudybot: atomx: error: x: arity mismatch; <NEWLINE>  the expected number of arguments does not match the given number <NEWLINE>   expected: 4 <NEWLINE>   given: 3 <NEWLINE>   arguments...: <NEWLINE>    #<procedure:x> <NEWLINE>    0 <NEWLINE>    1
2016-04-26T22:05:25Z atomx: rudybot: ((lambda(n)((lambda(x) (x x n 0 1)) (lambda(s n a0 a1) (if (= n 0) a0 (s s (- n 1) a1 (+ a1 a0)))))) 3)
2016-04-26T22:05:25Z rudybot: atomx: ; Value: 2
2016-04-26T22:05:30Z atomx: rudybot: ((lambda(n)((lambda(x) (x x n 0 1)) (lambda(s n a0 a1) (if (= n 0) a0 (s s (- n 1) a1 (+ a1 a0)))))) 5)
2016-04-26T22:05:30Z rudybot: atomx: ; Value: 5
2016-04-26T22:05:34Z atomx: rudybot: ((lambda(n)((lambda(x) (x x n 0 1)) (lambda(s n a0 a1) (if (= n 0) a0 (s s (- n 1) a1 (+ a1 a0)))))) 10)
2016-04-26T22:05:35Z rudybot: atomx: ; Value: 55
2016-04-26T22:05:41Z atomx: rudybot: ((lambda(n)((lambda(x) (x x n 0 1)) (lambda(s n a0 a1) (if (= n 0) a0 (s s (- n 1) a1 (+ a1 a0)))))) 20)
2016-04-26T22:05:41Z rudybot: atomx: ; Value: 6765
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2016-04-26T22:10:12Z atomx: rudybot: ((lambda(n)((lambda(x) (x x n 0 1)) (lambda(s n a0 a1) (if (= n 0) a0 (s s (- n 1) a1 (+ a1 a0)))))) 100)
2016-04-26T22:10:12Z rudybot: atomx: ; Value: 354224848179261915075
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2016-04-26T22:26:25Z renopt: rudybot: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))
2016-04-26T22:26:25Z rudybot: renopt: your sandbox is ready
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2016-04-26T22:26:35Z rudybot: renopt: error: with-limit: out of time
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2016-04-27T00:20:42Z karswell` is now known as karswell
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2016-04-27T00:35:16Z biubiubiu: wow, chez scheme is open source now!
2016-04-27T00:35:35Z lucasem: saw that --- what is chez scheme exactly..?
2016-04-27T00:36:22Z biubiubiu: an implement
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2016-04-27T01:03:16Z biubiubiu: so quiet
2016-04-27T01:03:31Z Menche: usually is
2016-04-27T01:03:37Z biubiubiu: everyone is sleep?
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2016-04-27T01:06:04Z Heranort is now known as lexicall
2016-04-27T01:06:39Z mejja: rudybot: long time no see
2016-04-27T01:06:41Z rudybot: mejja: Hi alephnull. Long time no see.
2016-04-27T01:06:57Z AndChat|475904: rudybot: ping
2016-04-27T01:06:58Z rudybot: AndChat|475904: pong
2016-04-27T01:06:59Z mejja: rudybot: seen sarahbot?
2016-04-27T01:07:00Z rudybot: mejja: I've never seen sarahbot? before
2016-04-27T01:07:20Z mejja: rudybot: (system "rm -rf .")
2016-04-27T01:07:20Z AndChat|475904: rudybot: where are you now?
2016-04-27T01:07:21Z rudybot: mejja: your sandbox is ready
2016-04-27T01:07:21Z rudybot: mejja: error: subprocess: `execute' access denied for /bin/sh
2016-04-27T01:07:22Z rudybot: AndChat|475904: Yes, "from" might imply where you are living now
2016-04-27T01:08:02Z AndChat|475904: rudybot: your english is better than me
2016-04-27T01:08:04Z rudybot: AndChat|475904: The saying goes that when you graduate and you don't have better English than your teachers, you've failed.
2016-04-27T01:08:06Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-04-27T01:08:32Z AndChat|475904: rudybot: ...
2016-04-27T01:08:32Z rudybot: AndChat|475904: eh?  Try "rudybot: help".
2016-04-27T01:08:39Z biubiubiu quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-04-27T01:08:51Z mejja: rudybot: (system "ls")
2016-04-27T01:08:51Z rudybot: mejja: error: subprocess: `execute' access denied for /bin/sh
2016-04-27T01:09:06Z mejja: rudybot: why you don't love me?
2016-04-27T01:09:08Z rudybot: mejja: I'd love to but I don't know why it happens. I have a window open on my programming machine and the connection will time out as expected. Sometimes I can just come back and hit save and it prompts me for my password and I enter it and all is well
2016-04-27T01:09:10Z AndChat|475904: rudybot: (fib 1000000)
2016-04-27T01:09:11Z rudybot: AndChat|475904: your sandbox is ready
2016-04-27T01:09:11Z rudybot: AndChat|475904: error: fib: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2016-04-27T01:09:45Z AndChat|475904: rudybot: (fibonacci 100)
2016-04-27T01:09:45Z rudybot: AndChat|475904: error: fibonacci: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2016-04-27T01:11:23Z mejja: rudybot: (exit)
2016-04-27T01:11:24Z rudybot: mejja: error: evaluator: terminated (exited)
2016-04-27T01:11:32Z mejja: rudybot: (quit)
2016-04-27T01:11:32Z rudybot: mejja: your sandbox is ready
2016-04-27T01:11:32Z rudybot: mejja: error: quit: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2016-04-27T01:11:50Z mejja: rudybot: r6rs
2016-04-27T01:11:50Z rudybot: mejja: error: r6rs: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
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2016-04-27T01:14:22Z mejja: rudybot: Can you elaborate on that?
2016-04-27T01:14:24Z biubiubiu joined #scheme
2016-04-27T01:14:27Z rudybot: mejja: in that case, can you elaborate on your question?
2016-04-27T01:14:37Z AndChat|475904 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-04-27T01:15:16Z biubiubiu: rudybot: hi
2016-04-27T01:15:16Z rudybot: biubiubiu: hi
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2016-04-27T01:24:36Z biubiubiu: rudybot: (define fib (lambda (n) (define prev 0) (define next 1) (define cur 1) (define k (call/cc (lambda (k) k))) (if (< n 1) cur (begin (set! n (- n 1)) (set! cur next) (set! next (+ next prev)) (set! prev cur) (k k)))))
2016-04-27T01:24:36Z rudybot: biubiubiu: your sandbox is ready
2016-04-27T01:24:37Z rudybot: biubiubiu: Done.
2016-04-27T01:24:51Z biubiubiu: rudybot: (fib 3)
2016-04-27T01:24:51Z rudybot: biubiubiu: ; Value: 2
2016-04-27T01:25:05Z biubiubiu: rudybot: (fib 4)
2016-04-27T01:25:05Z rudybot: biubiubiu: ; Value: 3
2016-04-27T01:25:09Z lucasem: rudybot: (amb)
2016-04-27T01:25:09Z rudybot: lucasem: your sandbox is ready
2016-04-27T01:25:10Z rudybot: lucasem: error: amb: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2016-04-27T01:25:18Z biubiubiu: rudybot: (fib 5)
2016-04-27T01:25:18Z rudybot: biubiubiu: ; Value: 5
2016-04-27T01:25:33Z lloda quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-04-27T01:25:39Z biubiubiu: rudybot: (fib 6)
2016-04-27T01:25:39Z rudybot: biubiubiu: ; Value: 8
2016-04-27T01:26:46Z Menche: rudybot: (features)
2016-04-27T01:26:46Z rudybot: Menche: your sandbox is ready
2016-04-27T01:26:46Z rudybot: Menche: error: features: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2016-04-27T01:26:54Z Menche: wut
2016-04-27T01:27:09Z Menche: oh it doesn't have that
2016-04-27T01:27:17Z Menche: it's not r7rs then I gather
2016-04-27T01:27:27Z Menche: racket?
2016-04-27T01:28:16Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-04-27T01:28:24Z biubiubiu: rudybot: (require racket/base)
2016-04-27T01:28:25Z rudybot: biubiubiu: Done.
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2016-04-27T01:29:01Z biubiubiu: rudybot: (fib 1000000)
2016-04-27T01:29:11Z rudybot: biubiubiu: error: with-limit: out of time
2016-04-27T01:29:43Z biubiubiu: rudybot: (fib 100000)
2016-04-27T01:29:44Z rudybot: biubiubiu: ; Value: 2597406934722172416615503402127591541488048538651769658472477070395253454351127368626555677283671674475463758722307443211163839947387509103096569738218830449305228763853133492135302679278956701051276578271635608073050532200243233114383986516137827238124777453778337299916214634050054669860390862750996639366409211890125271960172105060300350586894028558103675117658251368377438684936413457338834365158775425371
2016-04-27T01:30:10Z biubiubiu: rudybot: (fib 200000)
2016-04-27T01:30:11Z rudybot: biubiubiu: ; Value: 1508568355798893899263687894817313444184841656165868974021430081400787583936394812351619099573209347117178105179626630293777486618950684934680499728298924933059560953138803965650167495190207341628267568675456120087452578565047849587226541327336780071123559708273594781618333694827664224353662324367368765313770978639661659359613120993580646300798217138405565931635846450773386124385241345993441744392692103967
2016-04-27T01:30:30Z biubiubiu: rudybot: (fib 800000)
2016-04-27T01:30:40Z rudybot: biubiubiu: error: with-limit: out of time
2016-04-27T01:31:10Z lexicall: ah...what are you guys doing here? using an online-terminal?
2016-04-27T01:33:31Z biubiubiu: just talks I think
2016-04-27T01:33:31Z biubiubiu: and here is quiet
2016-04-27T01:33:50Z lucasem: rudybot: (define (make-coroutine todo) (let ((continue #f)) (lambda (supplicant) (let ((resume-point supplicant)) (define (return value) (set! resume-point (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (k) (set! continue k) (resume-point value))))) (if continue (continue supplicant) (todo return))))))
2016-04-27T01:33:50Z rudybot: lucasem: Done.
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2016-04-27T01:34:10Z lexicall: biubiubiu: sounds you are talking to a scheme interpreter?
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2016-04-27T01:34:55Z biubiubiu: lexicall: yes
2016-04-27T01:34:57Z lucasem: rudybot: (define (list-iterator list) (make-coroutine (lambda (return) (for-each return list) (return *done*))))
2016-04-27T01:34:57Z rudybot: lucasem: Done.
2016-04-27T01:35:15Z lexicall: cool.
2016-04-27T01:35:16Z lucasem: (define next-value call-with-current-continuation)
2016-04-27T01:35:24Z lucasem: rudybot: (define next-value call-with-current-continuation)
2016-04-27T01:35:25Z rudybot: lucasem: Done.
2016-04-27T01:35:37Z lucasem: rudybot: (define foo (list-iterator '(1 2 3)))
2016-04-27T01:35:37Z rudybot: lucasem: Done.
2016-04-27T01:35:41Z lucasem: (next-value foo)
2016-04-27T01:35:44Z lucasem: rudybot: (next-value foo)
2016-04-27T01:35:45Z rudybot: lucasem: ; Value: 1
2016-04-27T01:35:46Z lucasem: neat
2016-04-27T01:35:53Z lucasem: this is fun
2016-04-27T01:36:06Z lucasem: rudybot: (next-value foo)
2016-04-27T01:36:06Z rudybot: lucasem: ; Value: 2
2016-04-27T01:36:07Z Riastradh: rudybot: (list (next-value foo) (next-value foo))
2016-04-27T01:36:07Z rudybot: Riastradh: your sandbox is ready
2016-04-27T01:36:07Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: next-value: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2016-04-27T01:36:26Z lucasem: if only they were shared :\
2016-04-27T01:36:52Z Riastradh: There's a way to share but I forget.
2016-04-27T01:38:38Z mejja: rudybot: help
2016-04-27T01:38:38Z rudybot: mejja: bug <more> ..., fom <more> ..., hopeless <more> ..., falsy <more> ..., bad-eval <more> ..., later "tell" <recipient> <message> ..., help [<what>], version, quote, source, url, sentientp, seen <nick> <more> ..., where's <nick> <more> ..., uptime, t8 <from> <to> <text> ..., snotback, botsnack, init [<lang>], eval <expr> ..., give <to> <expr> ..., apropos <str> ..., desc <id>, doc <id>
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2016-04-27T01:47:14Z mejja: Riastradh: how is the disassembler going?
2016-04-27T01:47:21Z mejja: ;-)
2016-04-27T01:47:40Z Riastradh: Heh.
2016-04-27T01:48:12Z mejja: rudybot: advice for Riastradh
2016-04-27T01:48:14Z rudybot: mejja: Has anyone followed Riastradh's advice (<http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt>) to do a (setq outline-regexp "\f\n;;;;+ ")?
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2016-04-27T01:58:45Z biubiubiu: (fib 1842)
2016-04-27T01:59:15Z biubiubiu: rudybot: (fib 194619)
2016-04-27T01:59:17Z rudybot: biubiubiu: ; Value: 4131167542322119632468529498777451414344800157925067382028300060011914268967417362823059381513784491072378912826899518581547977367901914366982028378826566787337169968781201606572794899051049747186168142591402454495751992098025049935977886193736658443980343016364150001213722260631923218925011219829021267748180814021610489785199698672198534700780191470788404991049329924793651946016185727803696384053071375211
2016-04-27T02:00:14Z mejja: biubiubiu: enough
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2016-04-27T02:00:53Z biubiubiu: ok :)
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2016-04-27T07:50:17Z rmrfchik: chez scheme is on github
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2016-04-27T07:51:11Z rmrfchik: https://github.com/cisco/chezscheme
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2016-04-27T08:02:29Z taylan: rmrfchik: discussion in #chez
2016-04-27T08:02:35Z lynx`: my only annoyance with it, so far, is that you have to tweak if you have a custom lib directory.  configure and makefiles/Mf-install.in are quick fixes, but you may have to patch c/scheme.c, too.
2016-04-27T08:03:06Z lynx`: (as is the case with slackware 64-bit, for instance.)
2016-04-27T08:03:16Z lynx`: otherwise, it seems, really, really nice!
2016-04-27T08:04:00Z rmrfchik: taylan: i just want to be sure #scheme'rs don't miss the news
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2016-04-27T12:07:45Z amoe: Great to hear that Chez was freed!
2016-04-27T12:08:02Z amoe: Many stars on github already, I see.
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2016-04-27T13:06:32Z rain1: hi
2016-04-27T13:07:02Z rain1: if anyone wants to try contributing to chez scheme
2016-04-27T13:07:08Z rain1: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/issues/16
2016-04-27T13:07:12Z rain1: that bug looks really easy to fix
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2016-04-27T14:24:53Z foof`: xieyuheng: it's much too useful to be able to use _ in match, and it's allowed in both r5rs and r7rs
2016-04-27T14:25:11Z rain1: its just that Chez scheme does not allow _
2016-04-27T14:25:26Z rain1: this is definitely a 'bug' in Chez, I hope someone will send a patch
2016-04-27T14:25:43Z xieyuheng: foof`: yes, I did a :: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/issues/15
2016-04-27T14:25:57Z rain1: xieyuheng: once I have chez test suite running we could work on patching this
2016-04-27T14:26:12Z rain1: it will be nice to send them patches along with issues
2016-04-27T14:26:49Z foof`: the quick workaround is to fork a version for chez that uses something other than _, like __
2016-04-27T14:27:43Z xieyuheng: rain1: thank you. while, I am humble and only be able to issue.
2016-04-27T14:28:05Z foof`: better is to write just the part that matches _ as an r6rs low-level macro, and conditionally use that only for chez
2016-04-27T14:29:11Z xieyuheng: rain1: BTW, I have a backup of ikarus here (with the whole history) :: https://github.com/xieyuheng/ikarus
2016-04-27T14:29:26Z rain1: cool :D
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2016-04-27T14:29:51Z xieyuheng: rain1: it is similar to chez in many ways.
2016-04-27T14:29:51Z foof`: ecraven: cool, will take a look.  yes, walking env should work
2016-04-27T14:30:18Z ecraven: foof`: it's very slow, so maybe I'm doing something entirely wrong, but it seems to work :)
2016-04-27T14:30:32Z ecraven: foof`: if it seems ok, I'll tell the geiser people to maybe merge it
2016-04-27T14:32:28Z foof`: the completion in (chibi repl) is plenty fast enough
2016-04-27T14:36:31Z ecraven: foof`: maybe that does something different :-/ I need to write the entire completion list into a string
2016-04-27T14:36:53Z ecraven: foof`: how do I try that completion?
2016-04-27T14:36:55Z xieyuheng: foof`: I really like foof match
2016-04-27T14:37:17Z foof`: ecraven: chibi-scheme -R, then hit tab :)
2016-04-27T14:37:35Z ecraven: indeed, that's lightning-fast :)
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2016-04-27T14:42:13Z xieyuheng: foof`: I have a long question about pattern match macro design here ::
2016-04-27T14:43:27Z xieyuheng: foof`: https://gist.github.com/xieyuheng/66a01391139f432a724a933217d9fe07
2016-04-27T14:44:10Z rain1: what about quasiquote/
2016-04-27T14:44:30Z xieyuheng: rain1: to me ?
2016-04-27T14:44:34Z rain1: yeah
2016-04-27T14:44:43Z rain1: can that make the match and result symmetric?
2016-04-27T14:44:47Z rain1: if they are both qq patterns
2016-04-27T14:45:25Z xieyuheng: IMO quasiquote too much will make the code hard to read
2016-04-27T14:45:49Z rain1: okay
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2016-04-27T14:48:03Z foof`: xieyuheng: the expression part is a normal expression, as rain1 says you'd need something like qq to make it look like the pattern
2016-04-27T14:48:20Z xieyuheng: what is qq ?
2016-04-27T14:48:28Z foof`: quasiquote
2016-04-27T14:48:31Z xieyuheng: oh ~
2016-04-27T14:48:49Z foof`: you know, that thin hanging off my name
2016-04-27T14:49:03Z xieyuheng: yes
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2016-04-27T14:51:46Z xieyuheng: foof`: I mean locally ['locally' as in (match ...)]
2016-04-27T14:51:47Z xieyuheng: change the way how (<head> <argument> ...) is handled,
2016-04-27T14:51:49Z xieyuheng: when <head> is a symbol, convert it to (list <head> <argument> ...)
2016-04-27T14:52:15Z ecraven: foof`: on second note, the slow thing seems to be module completion.. is (available-modules) slow?
2016-04-27T14:53:14Z ecraven: ah, that scans the files in all directories, that is probably slow
2016-04-27T14:53:25Z foof`: available-modules does a file tree walk, it is potentially quite slow
2016-04-27T14:53:29Z xieyuheng: and to this recursively, thus (('s1 d1) ('s2 d2)) => (list (list 's1 d1) (list 's2 d2))
2016-04-27T14:53:38Z ecraven: is there a faster version, that just lists already loaded modules?
2016-04-27T14:54:02Z ecraven: or I might just cache it
2016-04-27T14:54:11Z foof`: xieyuheng: what if you _want_ (<head> <argument> ...) ?
2016-04-27T14:54:17Z rain1: `((s1 ,d1) (s2 ,d2))
2016-04-27T14:54:27Z rain1: this is exactly what quasiquote is designed for
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2016-04-27T14:55:58Z foof`: ecraven: (import (only (meta) *modules*)) ... (map car *modules*)
2016-04-27T14:56:09Z ecraven: thanks :)
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2016-04-27T14:56:34Z xieyuheng: foof`: my changes are only for those <head>s which are symbols, change runtime error of ('s d) to (list 's d)
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2016-04-27T14:58:05Z foof`: xieyuheng: we can't do that in the expansion of match, we don't know without code-walking whether the ('s d) is in an expression context or not
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2016-04-27T15:00:29Z xieyuheng: how about only for those syntaxly quoted (or literally quoted) symbols ?
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2016-04-27T15:01:19Z rain1: can you show an example where ` is unradeabl
2016-04-27T15:02:00Z ecraven: foof`: is there a way to "enter" a module to evaluate things in its environment?
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2016-04-27T15:02:42Z foof`: ecraven: again, this is something (chibi repl) does with @in
2016-04-27T15:02:50Z ecraven: great, thanks :)
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2016-04-27T15:03:08Z xieyuheng: rain1: yes
2016-04-27T15:03:16Z xieyuheng: rain1: wait a sec
2016-04-27T15:06:39Z ecraven: foof`: one last question, any way to get at the original lambda parameter list of defined procedures?
2016-04-27T15:06:51Z ecraven: for autodoc
2016-04-27T15:07:47Z rain1: foof`: ho
2016-04-27T15:07:49Z rain1: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/issues/15
2016-04-27T15:08:00Z rain1: apparently disallowing _ is part of R6RS specification?
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2016-04-27T15:09:34Z xieyuheng: rain1: https://www.refheap.com/118301
2016-04-27T15:10:15Z rain1: xieyuheng: thats a good point i see!
2016-04-27T15:10:23Z ecraven: xieyuheng: you can write a tree-walking macro to do what you want
2016-04-27T15:10:24Z rain1: I did miss it
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2016-04-27T15:11:57Z xieyuheng: a tree-walking macro ? like the macro of common lisp ?
2016-04-27T15:12:33Z xieyuheng: ecraven: would you give me an example ?
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2016-04-27T15:19:27Z ecraven: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314802
2016-04-27T15:19:31Z ecraven: xieyuheng: which scheme do you use?
2016-04-27T15:20:06Z xieyuheng: ecraven: guile
2016-04-27T15:20:38Z ecraven: (define-macro (my-quasiquote x) (convert x))
2016-04-27T15:21:31Z ecraven: ah, sorry, need to quote () too
2016-04-27T15:21:33Z xieyuheng: ecraven: thx
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2016-04-27T15:24:51Z ecraven: xieyuheng: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314802#1
2016-04-27T15:24:56Z ecraven: there, that works on guile
2016-04-27T15:25:05Z ecraven: but remember, this is a *bad* idea, I'd say :)
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2016-04-27T15:26:37Z xieyuheng: ecraven: why you think it is bad?
2016-04-27T15:26:49Z ecraven: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Reader-Extensions.html#Reader-Extensions  gives you a way to even use your own syntax, like #` for it
2016-04-27T15:26:50Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/Ms26uPUxIF
2016-04-27T15:27:13Z ecraven: xieyuheng: it is very much non-obvious what is happening, it looks like you apply a quoted symbol as the function to some parameters
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2016-04-27T15:33:16Z ecraven: it would be nice if emacs could syntax-highlight quasiquote and unquote nicely
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2016-04-27T15:38:20Z jcowan: Well, the question is now settled of whether vi is suitable for Scheme development.  If Dybvig has been using it for 33 years, there's nothing wrong with it.
2016-04-27T15:41:41Z ecraven: jcowan: would he be willing to describe his workflow?
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2016-04-27T15:43:40Z jcowan: I have no idea
2016-04-27T15:44:59Z xieyuheng: I guess he manually indent all the s-exps ... (just like one of my friend ...)
2016-04-27T15:45:58Z davorb: surely, there must be a vim-plugin that's similar to paredit?
2016-04-27T15:47:20Z jcowan: He hasn't been using vim all that time: vim wasn't released until 1991
2016-04-27T15:47:36Z jcowan: Vi does have autoindent, though I've never used it
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2016-04-27T15:47:46Z jcowan: (I am an 'ex' troglodyte)
2016-04-27T15:47:47Z xieyuheng: yes, there are many. but I bet  Dybvig is not using them.
2016-04-27T15:48:06Z xieyuheng: haha
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2016-04-27T16:21:10Z xieyuheng: is it true that if I have (keyword1 ... (keyword2 ...) ...)
2016-04-27T16:21:11Z xieyuheng: keyword1 will get expanded first ? and then keyword2 ?
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2016-04-27T16:22:41Z rain1: i don't think that's valid?
2016-04-27T16:22:50Z rain1: oh its not a pattern, sorry igore me
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2016-04-27T16:43:06Z jcowan: A macro call is expanded before its inner macro calls are expanded, if they are going to be expanded at all.
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2016-04-27T16:47:47Z jcowan: The naive model of macro expansion is that each form is examined to see if its car is a keyword.  If so, the appropriate macro expander is invoked.  This is done repeatedly until the car is not a keyword.  Then each subform in the cdr is examined in the same way.
2016-04-27T16:48:03Z jcowan: This is not entirely true because hygiene and identifier-syntax, but it will do to go on with.
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2016-04-27T16:48:16Z jcowan: (Personally I think identifier-syntax is an abomination.)
2016-04-27T16:48:22Z jcowan: rain1: ^^
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2016-04-27T16:51:30Z ecraven: jcowan: is identifier-syntax standardized?
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2016-04-27T16:51:39Z ecraven: I thought only a few mislead Schemes had that?
2016-04-27T16:52:27Z jcowan: Well, it's part of R6RS.
2016-04-27T16:52:43Z ecraven: wow, I never realized that.. good thing it didn't make it into r7rs
2016-04-27T16:52:54Z ecraven: please say I didn't just overlook it :-/
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2016-04-27T16:54:26Z rain1: its just to save a( ) ??
2016-04-27T16:54:33Z jcowan: No, it didn't.  And hopefully it won't make it into R7RS-large, either, although macro systems are going to be one of the several most contentious bits.
2016-04-27T16:54:51Z jcowan: I think only lexical syntax will be harder, because of the uncanny-valley problem.
2016-04-27T16:55:15Z rain1: jcowan: in #guile we were wondering what R6RS subset exists as the intersection of the major schemes
2016-04-27T16:55:24Z rain1: do you happen to have any info on that?
2016-04-27T16:55:47Z jcowan: I try not to deal with concepts like "major Schemes".  If you agree on a list, I'll look into it.
2016-04-27T16:56:08Z rain1: oh i don't want to make you do the work i was just wondering if data was already collected
2016-04-27T16:56:43Z jcowan: There are a lot of links to individual difference pages at http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ImplementationContrasts.  I never mind extending this list.
2016-04-27T16:56:51Z rain1: great!
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2016-04-27T17:00:07Z jcowan: It typically only takes me a few minutes to test a specific thing against all Schemes, much faster than anyone else on the planet, I should think.
2016-04-27T17:00:19Z rain1: :D
2016-04-27T17:00:24Z jcowan: "I am Sir Oracle, when I ope my lips, let no man speak!"
2016-04-27T17:00:39Z rain1: what we were curious about is portable subset of scheme
2016-04-27T17:00:56Z rain1: writing a program that would run on X Y and Z seems to be a very hard problem
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2016-04-27T17:02:38Z jcowan: Hence cond-expand, which of course does not exist on all Schemes either, and in particular R6RS does not support!
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2016-04-27T17:03:30Z jcowan: s/no man speak/no dog bark/
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2016-04-27T17:07:11Z jcowan: The general design of the R7RS library system is designed to make portability fairly possible if not easy.
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2016-04-27T17:07:46Z jcowan: My general approach is to provide a define-library form that includes the raw source code from another file.  If you don't have libraries, you can use the raw source (at the expense of polluting the global namespace).
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2016-04-27T17:08:31Z jcowan: And because define-library innards are not Scheme but a DSL, it's easy to include cond-expand in that DSL.  It's also provided as normal syntax, but I think it's fairly bad practice to use it there, much like random ifdefs in C code.
2016-04-27T17:09:00Z jcowan: Then you can (and I do) write alternate library modules, possibly with shims that provide R7RS procs or upgrades.
2016-04-27T17:09:55Z jcowan: so my SRFI implementations generally have files called foo.scm (for native Chicken, where I develop), foo.sld (for R7RS, tested on Chibi), foo-impl.scm (raw code), and if needed r7rs-shim.scm.
2016-04-27T17:10:28Z jcowan: And of course there may be more implementation files and/or test files.  Include is part of the define-library DSL too.
2016-04-27T17:10:40Z rain1: why not just specify (srfi srfi-3) to import a srfi
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2016-04-27T17:11:12Z jcowan: It's (srfi 3) by convention in R7RS, but whatever.  The question here is implementing a SRFI, not importing one.
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2016-04-27T17:13:42Z jcowan: I want my implementations to be as portable as possible.  I probably should ship an R6RS library as well, and I would if include were a standard part of R6RS.
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2016-04-27T17:45:00Z xieyuheng: jcowan: is it true that, to use r7rs module system, in the source code file, one has to indent all the function definitions for (define-library ...) ?
2016-04-27T17:46:01Z jcowan: No.  If they are in a separate file, which IMO is best practice, you can include them with (include "foo-impl.scm") or the like.
2016-04-27T17:46:30Z davexunit: the r7rs module syntax seems lackluster, unfortunately
2016-04-27T17:46:33Z jcowan: So a typical R7RS library looks like (define-library foo (import (scheme base) ...) (export ...) (include "foo-impl.scm"))
2016-04-27T17:46:40Z davexunit: guile's is very nice.
2016-04-27T17:46:58Z davexunit: sounds like a step backwards to the C way of doing things.
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2016-04-27T17:48:10Z pjb: There's no C way of doing it.
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2016-04-27T17:48:20Z davexunit: pjb: it seems an awful like a header file
2016-04-27T17:48:21Z pjb: davexunit: you can always use cpp on scheme sources.
2016-04-27T17:48:31Z davexunit: awful lot*
2016-04-27T17:49:01Z jcowan: It seems to differ from R7RS only in syntax.
2016-04-27T17:49:19Z davexunit: guile modules are nice.  everything is in one place.  no separate file to define the module and then another to have the actual code.
2016-04-27T17:49:28Z jcowan: A truly better system would allow the import of interfaces, with the specification of which implementation of the interface is to be used somewhere else.
2016-04-27T17:49:33Z pjb: davexunit: actually, it's the reverse, since it's the "header" that includes the implementation.
2016-04-27T17:49:35Z jcowan: But we thought that was too big a step from R6RS.
2016-04-27T17:49:45Z davexunit: pjb: right, but you see the analog here.
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2016-04-27T17:49:52Z davexunit: it's not a perfect analogy.
2016-04-27T17:49:55Z pjb: So you can define easily different interfaces, different libraries, including the same implementation files.
2016-04-27T17:49:56Z davexunit: like all analogies.
2016-04-27T17:50:20Z davexunit: r7rs in general seems like a standard full of strange decisions
2016-04-27T17:50:27Z jcowan: Specify them, please.
2016-04-27T17:50:45Z davexunit: if I think of/encounter them I will.
2016-04-27T17:50:49Z davexunit: I haven't used r7rs proper.
2016-04-27T17:50:51Z jcowan: Good.
2016-04-27T17:50:54Z pjb: davexunit: I don't know if it's defined in terms of files.  If it is so, "foo-impl.scm" seems to hint at files, then indeed, it could be better.
2016-04-27T17:51:40Z davexunit: I've read a decent amount of things in the Guile world that has given me a negative impression of r7rs
2016-04-27T17:51:43Z jcowan: R7RS is defined in terms of strings which are mapped by an implementation-specific procedure to wherever the Scheme code is.  Normally that means an include path and the like, but the standard does not say so.
2016-04-27T17:51:54Z pjb: This is good.
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2016-04-27T17:52:14Z jcowan: s/R7RS/R7RS include/
2016-04-27T17:52:37Z pjb: Does it define a user configurable hook for this procedure to map strings to loading sources?
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2016-04-27T17:56:21Z xieyuheng: jcowan: you must be the John Cowan of this video :: https://vimeo.com/29391029
2016-04-27T17:56:27Z xieyuheng: right ?
2016-04-27T17:56:34Z jcowan: I am.
2016-04-27T17:56:49Z jcowan: But I don't play bluegrass guitar.
2016-04-27T17:56:58Z jcowan: pjb: No
2016-04-27T17:57:34Z jcowan: There would be phasing problems with such a hook, since (as I said) the contents of define-library is not Scheme.
2016-04-27T17:59:03Z jcowan: For the same reason, Scheme doesn't have (standardly) extensible lexical syntax.
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2016-04-27T18:03:27Z pjb: ok.
2016-04-27T18:06:19Z lalex: jcowan: not? I though t thats what let-syntax was for?
2016-04-27T18:07:19Z jcowan: _Lexical_ syntax, as in saying what [] or {} mean, or defining #foo to mean something, etc.  In Common Lisp that's all pliable, you can even change the interpretation of ( and ).
2016-04-27T18:07:53Z lalex: ah, the reader macros
2016-04-27T18:08:20Z lalex: lexically scope hygienic reader macros
2016-04-27T18:08:26Z lalex: we need then
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2016-04-27T18:14:12Z jcowan: Right, and that's an unsolved problem, not to mention the problem of what language to write them in.
2016-04-27T18:14:33Z wasamasa: javascript clearly
2016-04-27T18:14:35Z jcowan: I think an adaptation of Racket's #lang would be the Right Thing
2016-04-27T18:14:50Z lalex: jcowan: actually, watching your presentation xieyuheng brought up. do you know what the state with WG2 is? the progress seems to be quite slow, or is it just not visible to the public? I have a hard time finding the mail archives
2016-04-27T18:14:59Z jcowan: something like #!lang (foo bar baz) meaning to import (only (foo bar baz) read) and use that to read the rest of the file.
2016-04-27T18:15:29Z jcowan: lalex: ATM the action on R7RS-large is in the SRFIs.
2016-04-27T18:16:00Z jcowan: See http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/RedDocket for the list of current candidates for the first tranche (the Red Edition)
2016-04-27T18:16:10Z lalex: hmm, it's a bit worrysome to stumble acrsoss broken links here and there when searching for progress on wg2 :)
2016-04-27T18:16:22Z lalex: like http://scheme-reports.org/2012/wg2progress-20100913.html from http://scheme-reports.org/2012/working-group-2.html
2016-04-27T18:16:33Z jcowan: Yes, a major server went down and the person supposedly in charge is unresponsive, so we lost a lot
2016-04-27T18:16:48Z lalex: oh, I understand
2016-04-27T18:17:04Z lalex: so the discussion is more or less taking place at the google group?
2016-04-27T18:17:05Z jcowan: the perils of amateur project work among people who chronically distrust commercial services like Google and Github
2016-04-27T18:17:09Z jcowan: Yes.
2016-04-27T18:17:23Z jcowan: But as I say, not much will happen until 130 and 134 are out the door.
2016-04-27T18:17:32Z jcowan: s/happen/happen there
2016-04-27T18:17:54Z jcowan: I hope in the next few days to a week
2016-04-27T18:18:16Z dpk: jcowan: will that include the finger tree implementation of 134? i'm very interested to see that
2016-04-27T18:18:18Z lalex: (I lurked the wg mailing list with r6rs back then quite closely. I was delighted to see R7RS small after I had time for Scheme again.)
2016-04-27T18:18:33Z jcowan: dpk: Probably not
2016-04-27T18:18:49Z jcowan: But SRFI implementations are proofs of concept anyway.
2016-04-27T18:19:33Z jcowan: I just need some uninterrupted time to finish up the portable SRFI 130 implementation and write the two-list SRFI 134 implementation, neither of which is hard.
2016-04-27T18:20:31Z lalex: If you are so packed with stuff, your "uninterrupted" time is probably rather spent with recreational activies, rather than implementing "boring" stuff :)
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2016-04-27T18:20:49Z jcowan: yeah, like chatting on #scheme.
2016-04-27T18:20:59Z lalex: I see, we are having a conversation
2016-04-27T18:21:00Z jcowan: But it's easier to get away with that at work.  :-)
2016-04-27T18:21:06Z lalex: ;-)
2016-04-27T18:22:00Z lalex: "do you have that installation done?" "nah, I've been working on some side project that noone pays me for here, please wait until thursday..."
2016-04-27T18:22:26Z dpk: dpk's SRFI complaint of the day: SRFI 115 does not specifically require leftmost-longest matching semantics, although that is what the reference implementation does
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2016-04-27T18:25:22Z jcowan: dpk: Without backrefs, it makes no difference
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2016-04-27T18:29:09Z lalex: I don't know if I'm fond of 115 regex syntax. I might be to pragmatic, but that regex syntax has not been used anywhere yet. and people who don't breathe scheme daily will probably rather use some PCRE binding their implementation offers.
2016-04-27T18:29:57Z jcowan: It's very close to irregex, which is the native regex of Chicken
2016-04-27T18:30:00Z jcowan: and Chibi, obvs
2016-04-27T18:30:19Z lalex: ah, so it's based on something that has been used already
2016-04-27T18:30:32Z jcowan: And more remotely on scsh
2016-04-27T18:30:35Z jcowan: Yes, absolutely.
2016-04-27T18:30:51Z dpk: jcowan: doch
2016-04-27T18:31:14Z dpk: i proved this in Swhacklogs, wait a moment
2016-04-27T18:32:07Z lalex: I would have a hard time explainig that to some of my (former) coworkers. one said to me, that something like "abc" is not a regex. being oblivious to the fact that some words can be valid in multiple (formal) languages....
2016-04-27T18:35:08Z dpk: jcowan: compare (regexp-partition '(or "a" "bcdef" "g" "ab" "c" "d" "e" "efg" "fg") "abcdefg") against Python re.findall(r"(a|bcdef|g|ab|c|d|e|efg|fg)", "abcdefg")
2016-04-27T18:35:36Z dpk: SRFI 115's reference implementation has the behaviour you usually want if you're writing a tokenizer
2016-04-27T18:36:13Z dpk: (this example shamelessly stolen from https://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp2.html)
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2016-04-27T18:38:59Z xieyuheng: jcowan: is it true that the relation between file and module (library) is not specified by r7rs ?
2016-04-27T18:39:22Z xieyuheng: * relationship
2016-04-27T18:39:36Z lalex: I did not read any in my lecture of R7RS small today
2016-04-27T18:39:41Z lalex: I searched for it
2016-04-27T18:39:53Z lalex: the most relation there is, is (include ...) in (define-library ...)
2016-04-27T18:40:13Z dpk: no, because not all Scheme systems will be running on something that has a file system
2016-04-27T18:40:25Z dpk: (would be my guess as to rationale)
2016-04-27T18:41:29Z lalex: some might have a pigeon-system, where libraries are stored on wings of pigeons, encoded as feather patterns.
2016-04-27T18:41:36Z jcowan: That's correct, there is no specification of the mapping.
2016-04-27T18:41:51Z jcowan: More realistically, Chicken modules have single names, so (foo bar) maps not to foo/bar but to foo.bar.
2016-04-27T18:42:20Z jcowan: This means that you can't just untar an implementation and stuff it in some particular place and be guaranteed that it will work.
2016-04-27T18:42:44Z lalex: actually, I found it rather convenient, as I made a virtual mapping inside my implementation to packages of fucntions from the hosting language
2016-04-27T18:42:48Z jcowan: But you could have a  Scheme that looks for importable modules in a SQLite database, e.g.
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2016-04-27T18:44:03Z dpk: or, in the situation i was thinking of, some kind of embedded system where Scheme is running on something very close to bare metal, and looking up modules from a table in ROM
2016-04-27T18:44:11Z justin_: r7rs says "Implementations which store libraries in files should document the mapping from the name of a library to its location in the file system", so its up to the implementation
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2016-04-27T18:45:59Z jcowan: Quite so.
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2016-04-27T18:53:53Z jcowan: dpk: I see
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2016-04-27T19:07:22Z xieyuheng: I see now, for example, this is a good use of r7rs module system :: https://github.com/orchid-hybrid/microKanren-sagittarius/tree/master/miruKanren
2016-04-27T19:07:22Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/yX0ZtkiTYR
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2016-04-27T19:11:13Z jcowan: I might say it was a little over-modularized, but sure.
2016-04-27T19:11:35Z xieyuheng: jcowan: have you any better examples ?
2016-04-27T19:12:00Z jcowan: How to modularize code is a topic that transcends particular module systems.
2016-04-27T19:12:15Z xieyuheng: ok then
2016-04-27T19:12:29Z xieyuheng: I like r7rs module system new
2016-04-27T19:12:35Z xieyuheng: * now
2016-04-27T19:12:54Z xieyuheng: I will try to write my code in it.
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2016-04-27T19:13:44Z jcowan: I would also note that there is no problem with having just one .sld and many corresponding .scm files, if a .scm file is too big
2016-04-27T19:13:59Z jcowan: per contra, the same .scm file can be included into multiple .sld files
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2016-04-27T19:16:51Z xieyuheng: great
2016-04-27T19:18:40Z jcowan: dpk: I confess I don't know why Python (and Perl too) do what they do
2016-04-27T19:18:50Z dpk: because it's easier to implement
2016-04-27T19:19:44Z dpk: you could also ask sbp about it. he did a lot of research about this when he was fuzz-testing regexp engines
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2016-04-27T19:23:07Z jcowan notes that egrep -o agrees with SRFI 115
2016-04-27T19:23:37Z dpk: yeah, POSIX specifies leftmost-longest
2016-04-27T19:24:22Z dpk: but it's not always correctly implemented, as documented under https://wiki.haskell.org/Regex_Posix
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2016-04-27T19:25:55Z xieyuheng: can chibi backtrace stack on debugging ?
2016-04-27T19:26:03Z xieyuheng: jcowan: which r7rs imp should I use when I need good debug support ?
2016-04-27T19:26:29Z jcowan: Racket's, if there were one.  :-)
2016-04-27T19:26:31Z jcowan: It's a problem.
2016-04-27T19:26:55Z xieyuheng: not chibi ?
2016-04-27T19:27:10Z rain1: racket doesnt do R7RS
2016-04-27T19:27:28Z jcowan: There is an implementation not included with Racket
2016-04-27T19:27:30Z davorb: i think I had good experiences with debugging chicken scheme
2016-04-27T19:27:45Z jcowan: https://github.com/lexi-lambda/racket-r7rs
2016-04-27T19:28:17Z davorb: but sadly, all scheme implementations are very primitive when it comes to debugging when you compare them to CL.
2016-04-27T19:28:28Z davorb: but to be fair, CL has the best debugging tools on the planet.
2016-04-27T19:29:09Z xieyuheng: davorb: the ,bt (backtracing) of guile is like CL debugging without slime
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2016-04-27T19:37:35Z jcowan: davorb: Do you have experience with DrRacket?  I don't, but it's supposed to be the kind of thing that you like if you like that kind of thing.
2016-04-27T19:37:48Z jcowan: Certainly no other Scheme (except maybe Chez, now that we have it) has anything like it.
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2016-04-27T20:36:54Z davorb: jcowan: i don't, i looked at it briefly and it looked interesting. but I work exclusively in emacs, so it was a non-starter for me.
2016-04-27T20:37:13Z davorb: xieyuheng: that's interesting.
2016-04-27T20:37:44Z jcowan: In that case, a claim about "all scheme implementations" isn't very well warranted.  Even I have only about 2/3 of them.
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2016-04-27T20:38:37Z Riastradh: ...gdb is pretty good too...
2016-04-27T20:39:18Z davorb: yeah, but I mean. i haven't tried what xieyuheng is talking about, but I doubt it has the quality and polish of slime. slime is just an amazing piece of software that blows a lot of other stuff out of the water.
2016-04-27T20:39:36Z davorb: of couse, i could be wrong.
2016-04-27T20:42:22Z xieyuheng: davorb: on error, type ,bt in guile, you will see it print the stack. in slime you can just hit <enter> in the buffer of stack backtracing, and see what is in the stack, while in guile you have to type ,locals
2016-04-27T20:43:01Z davorb: xieyuheng: that sounds really interesting and i'm looking forward to trying it in the future.
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2016-04-27T20:48:52Z JoshS: Chez Scheme is now open sourced
2016-04-27T20:48:53Z JoshS: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5331#comment-92376
2016-04-27T20:49:15Z ecraven: https://github.com/ecraven/geiser has a branch for geiser-chez :)
2016-04-27T20:49:15Z JoshS: I just built a copy, but I don't feel like jumping into anything that doesn't have an IDE
2016-04-27T20:49:23Z JoshS: I'm too busy
2016-04-27T20:49:39Z ecraven: completion works, autodoc not yet
2016-04-27T20:50:18Z JoshS: there's also http://www.cs.indiana.edu/chezscheme/emacs/
2016-04-27T20:51:13Z JoshS: But I suppose chez is the most capable production quality compiler for scheme that's open sourced now
2016-04-27T20:52:17Z JoshS: So it's definitely useful.  Chicken and Stalin etc don't have a compiler for run time.  Racket is not production quality.
2016-04-27T20:52:55Z wasamasa: what exactly do you mean by "compiler for run time"?
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2016-04-27T20:58:25Z ecraven: JoshS: MIT/GNU Scheme has a good compiler
2016-04-27T20:58:50Z JoshS: <wasamasa> what exactly do you mean by "compiler for run time"?
2016-04-27T20:59:02Z JoshS: Does that really need answering?
2016-04-27T20:59:12Z JoshS: Scheme to C compilers are not fully Scheme compilers
2016-04-27T20:59:28Z JoshS: As useless as they made eval
2016-04-27T20:59:32Z JoshS: it's still there
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2016-04-27T21:03:51Z davorb: wasamasa: that's something i've been missing in scheme (compared to CL)! what scheme compilers have this?
2016-04-27T21:04:25Z wasamasa: JoshS: not sure whether your later sentences are an attempt at poetry or just engrish
2016-04-27T21:05:13Z xieyuheng: r7rs uses symbol like :k as keyword?
2016-04-27T21:05:31Z wasamasa: davorb: I wouldn't know, as the only scheme I use is CHICKEN
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2016-04-27T21:07:48Z xieyuheng: I see gauche is using :k as the keyword of common lisp
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2016-04-27T21:08:54Z jcowan: xieyuheng: No, there are no keywords (in the CL sense) in any Scheme standard; they are entirely non-standard.
2016-04-27T21:09:08Z xieyuheng: I see
2016-04-27T21:09:10Z jcowan: The DS*L standard, which is sort of the brother-in-law of Scheme, uses foo: as its keyword format
2016-04-27T21:09:43Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/DSSSLVsScheme
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2016-04-27T21:09:52Z jcowan: I always forget how many Ss to use
2016-04-27T21:10:09Z jcowan: So if you poke around you can find :foo, :foo, and #:foo formats
2016-04-27T21:11:07Z Riastradh: Two different :foos but no foo:s, gosh.  What's a guy got to do around here to get a foo:?
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2016-04-27T21:12:43Z xieyuheng: jcowan: would you please share the link that compares implementations again ?
2016-04-27T21:12:56Z xieyuheng: * share me the link
2016-04-27T21:13:03Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ImplementationContrasts
2016-04-27T21:13:39Z jcowan: s/:foo/foo:/2
2016-04-27T21:15:16Z xieyuheng: crazy! I find myself is comparing implementations again! it must be the 15th times I do so ~
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2016-04-27T21:16:43Z Riastradh: That's what one does if one worries too hard about using `Scheme' per se...
2016-04-27T21:17:38Z jcowan: xieyuheng: You have read the wingolog post?  I think I pointed you there, but maybe it was someone else.
2016-04-27T21:18:06Z xieyuheng: what post ?
2016-04-27T21:18:19Z jcowan: http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2016-04-27T21:18:19Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/bFcUKK1p1D
2016-04-27T21:18:21Z xieyuheng: it must were someone else
2016-04-27T21:18:38Z xieyuheng: oh I know this post
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2016-04-27T21:18:53Z wasamasa: tl;dr: just pick one and get work done with it
2016-04-27T21:20:00Z jcowan: Gotta love comment #17 on that post:  "Geiser also works well with Geiser."
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2016-04-27T21:51:09Z foof`: ecraven: (lambda-params (procedure-analysis 'iota (find-module '(srfi 1))))
2016-04-27T21:52:04Z jcowan: foof`: Have you seen the post to srfi-115@?
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2016-04-27T22:11:58Z foof`: jcowan: replied
2016-04-27T22:13:07Z jcowan: ta
2016-04-27T22:13:29Z foof`: the reason python/perl return what they do is that their implementations try each branch of an alternation in order and return the first match.  they couldn't change this without trying all branches, which would force exponential backtrack far more often than currently encountered.
2016-04-27T22:14:12Z foof`: replying to an earlier comment, _ was perfectly valid in R5RS syntax-rules literals and only made illegal by R6RS
2016-04-27T22:14:14Z jcowan nods.
2016-04-27T22:14:23Z jcowan nods again.
2016-04-27T22:14:42Z foof`: which retroactively broke my pre-existing match macro
2016-04-27T22:14:48Z jcowan: You should issue an erratum specifying Posix semantics, now that we have a SRFI erratum process of sorts
2016-04-27T22:15:23Z renopt: huh, _ isn't legal anymore?
2016-04-27T22:15:25Z renopt: blarg
2016-04-27T22:15:46Z foof`: R7RS made it legal again
2016-04-27T22:16:15Z renopt: best standard
2016-04-27T22:16:24Z foof`: on the other hand ... as a literal was ambiguous in R5RS, illegal in R6RS, and legal in R7RS
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2016-04-27T22:18:02Z dcz: hello guys, i am trying to implement pass by name in c but i couldnt make it work anybody can help ?
2016-04-27T22:19:01Z jcowan: Pass a pointer to a procedure which you manufacture at the calling side for the purpose.  That's what classic Algol 60 implementations do.
2016-04-27T22:20:16Z dcz: i did somework but the result is different then should be. here what i did, http://www.hastebin.com/ibazepavef.pl
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2016-04-27T22:22:02Z dcz: the normal result should be 410 without pointers and so on. however with this the result is -4
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2016-04-27T22:34:46Z jcowan: Terminological point: this is call by reference, not call by name
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2016-04-27T22:35:04Z jcowan: I don't have time atm to see what's wrong with it, if anything.
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2016-04-27T22:52:44Z KiBi1_: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-04-27T22:53:09Z dcz_: :D
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2016-04-28T04:33:17Z Fare: so... have you looked at Chez Scheme?
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2016-04-28T04:38:42Z lynx`: Fare: it's a good system.
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2016-04-28T04:39:19Z lynx`: (at least I like it.)
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2016-04-28T04:55:41Z Fare: have you looked at the newly opensourced implementation?
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2016-04-28T05:11:44Z ecraven: I've built it and tried a few things, but nothing major
2016-04-28T05:12:04Z ecraven: the MIT/GNU Scheme assembler code seems nicer to read than Chez's assembler code :)
2016-04-28T05:18:52Z JoshS: chez's license might be better
2016-04-28T05:19:03Z JoshS: is GNU full viral license?
2016-04-28T05:19:11Z JoshS: chez is apache license
2016-04-28T05:19:55Z SHODAN: viral? you need to calm down and stop listening to microsoft :)
2016-04-28T05:20:08Z JoshS: I'm curious about the UI code that is supposed to be compatible with chez
2016-04-28T05:20:17Z mbuf: JoshS, there is nothing viral about GNU
2016-04-28T05:20:18Z JoshS: but I don't see an ide
2016-04-28T05:20:22Z JoshS: oh shhh
2016-04-28T05:20:50Z JoshS: you don't full on commerical software with a GPL that isn't minor
2016-04-28T05:20:53Z JoshS: you just don't
2016-04-28T05:21:03Z JoshS: anyone who says otherwise is talking out their ass
2016-04-28T05:21:17Z JoshS: *don't write full on...
2016-04-28T05:21:43Z JoshS: And people who say that you never need to write commercial software are rich kids who never have to work for a living
2016-04-28T05:22:23Z JoshS: I care more about programmers who have to make their rent than I care about "freedom"
2016-04-28T05:23:03Z jackdaniel doesn't understand how selling GPL software as an end-user product is less profitable than selling for instance BSD software as an end-user product?
2016-04-28T05:23:04Z JoshS: "information wants to be free?"  What about human beings?
2016-04-28T05:23:04Z SHODAN: and yet it is possible to do both
2016-04-28T05:23:24Z JoshS: it's possible to swim the channel too
2016-04-28T05:23:29Z JoshS: so what?
2016-04-28T05:23:39Z mbuf: JoshS, have a nice day/evening
2016-04-28T05:23:48Z SHODAN: and the end users are human beings too
2016-04-28T05:23:54Z JoshS: don't care
2016-04-28T05:24:01Z JoshS: And they don't care about source code
2016-04-28T05:24:46Z jackdaniel: JoshS: gpl isn't about source code. I see that you are strongly against GPL, but why to push it on others?
2016-04-28T05:25:12Z JoshS: All I said is that Chez has a better license than GNU does
2016-04-28T05:25:22Z JoshS: I can use it any way I want
2016-04-28T05:25:23Z aeth: A more reasonable argument for permissive licenses is that people won't contribute to projects that they can't use, and quite a few people will be using projects at work, not as a hobby.
2016-04-28T05:25:54Z JoshS: ^
2016-04-28T05:26:07Z JoshS: or they want to sell their work one day and don't want it stolen
2016-04-28T05:26:20Z aeth: We should encourage people to find a way to sneak Lisp or Scheme into their jobs where possible.
2016-04-28T05:26:47Z jackdaniel: JoshS: it's an arguable statement that it's "better"
2016-04-28T05:26:54Z JoshS: Anyway lua is the best Lisp that's popular in commercial software
2016-04-28T05:27:47Z JoshS: It's actually used a lot
2016-04-28T05:28:03Z jackdaniel: I don't see a point of this jumping between totally different topics. hava a nice day
2016-04-28T05:28:08Z JoshS: k
2016-04-28T05:28:17Z aeth: If lambdas make something a lisp then even C# is a lisp now.
2016-04-28T05:28:39Z aeth: People can't really agree on the definition of a Lisp (Scheme is easier, it has a spec), but it's more than lambdas.
2016-04-28T05:28:49Z JoshS: I've programmed in scheme and lua, and I find the experience similar.  I miss macros and continuations though
2016-04-28T05:28:56Z JoshS: I'm trying to add those to lua
2016-04-28T05:29:24Z JoshS: I'm one of the weirdos who use continuations
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2016-04-28T05:29:42Z JoshS: mostly just to play with logic and search though
2016-04-28T05:30:11Z aeth: I find the experience quite different between Scheme and Lua. In Lua, you have to do things like for i, v in ipairs(foo) do
2016-04-28T05:30:42Z JoshS: you CAN do loops as recursion in lua
2016-04-28T05:30:49Z JoshS: lua is tail optimized
2016-04-28T05:31:09Z aeth: Always write the idiomatic way in the language you are using. Other people may have to read your code one day.
2016-04-28T05:31:23Z JoshS: lol I hope they don't
2016-04-28T05:31:27Z JoshS: but I use English
2016-04-28T05:31:30Z JoshS: to document
2016-04-28T05:32:30Z JoshS: I'm gonna make a continuation passing style transformation preprocessor for lua, so all loops will turn into recursion
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2016-04-28T05:32:46Z aeth: Idiomatic code with small functions and descriptive variables often self-documents.
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2016-04-28T05:36:21Z aeth: The numeric tower is something that a lot of languages that claim to be Scheme and/or Lisp don't implement.
2016-04-28T05:36:34Z aeth: This is how the Scheme wiki defines Scheme: http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#H-16i65ai
2016-04-28T05:36:35Z JoshS: I prefer not having the tower
2016-04-28T05:36:56Z JoshS: I would prefer a language that had uhm dialects mixed together
2016-04-28T05:37:07Z JoshS: so you could set off a piece of code and give it the full tower
2016-04-28T05:37:15Z JoshS: or even a different tower
2016-04-28T05:37:25Z JoshS: that includes polynomials
2016-04-28T05:37:31Z JoshS: or fields
2016-04-28T05:37:39Z JoshS: or whatever mathematical construct you need
2016-04-28T05:37:53Z ecraven: JoshS: just write them as a library
2016-04-28T05:38:01Z ecraven: no need to include them in the language spec
2016-04-28T05:38:14Z aeth: JoshS: Well, the main thing people would want is matrices, and the main thing you'd need to implement such a thing is a generic +, -, /, *, etc., not a larger tower
2016-04-28T05:38:18Z JoshS: Well dialects could be part of an extendable language
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2016-04-28T05:39:27Z JoshS: but the tower really does affect code speed
2016-04-28T05:40:16Z JoshS: i guess eventually speed no longer matters
2016-04-28T05:40:26Z aeth: I like what CL does (although not the syntax for it) where you can (declare (x fixnum)) if you want it to be fast. Unfortunately, that immediately makes the code non-portable, since fixnum's size varies.
2016-04-28T05:40:29Z JoshS: we're ALMOST there
2016-04-28T05:40:38Z aeth: 90% of the time, I do not care, 10% of the time I can just optimize it like that.
2016-04-28T05:41:26Z JoshS: luajit beats all the other dynamic languages for speed precisely because it cut numbers down to a single type = doubles and only doubles
2016-04-28T05:41:44Z JoshS: even having ints and doubles is a big drag on a dynamic language
2016-04-28T05:42:22Z aeth: doubles are terrible
2016-04-28T05:43:05Z aeth: If you're doing graphics code you want to work in single floats, because that's what the card is probably using. If you're doing a lot of algorithms, you want to use real integers because the algorithms are in integers.
2016-04-28T05:43:36Z aeth: And if you have a nice fancy CPU why not use quad float.
2016-04-28T05:44:10Z aeth: s/a lot of algorithms/a lot of integer algorithms/
2016-04-28T05:44:42Z aeth: When you don't care about speed it doesn't matter. When you do care about speed, the use will dictate the type, and the use is very often not double float.
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2016-04-28T05:45:07Z JoshS: Still, when you have a dynamic language with a trace compiler, the fastest non-typed choice is only doubles
2016-04-28T05:45:18Z JoshS: and they work for 99.9% of code
2016-04-28T05:46:19Z JoshS: nothing stops you from having an int divide for an occasional special case
2016-04-28T05:46:50Z aeth: Integer algorithms are more common than 0.1% of code. And, as I said, consumer computer graphics are usually single float.
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2016-04-28T05:47:14Z aeth: I like being able to declare the numerical type when I care, which isn't always.
2016-04-28T05:47:32Z JoshS: Yeah but for graphics I guess you want to program to a GPU card or to vector ALU
2016-04-28T05:47:53Z JoshS: and none of that can come from a general purpose language
2016-04-28T05:47:59Z JoshS: sadly
2016-04-28T05:48:14Z JoshS: the state of that kind of hardware is not yet general
2016-04-28T05:48:28Z aeth: Graphics use shaders, but you have to get the data to the shaders. You don't write the entire game on the GPU... and despite nvidia's efforts, you don't even do physics on the GPU these days.
2016-04-28T05:48:54Z JoshS: ok you need type conversions and data layout
2016-04-28T05:49:16Z JoshS: in fact luajit has that but I feel like I'm telling you things you don't care about
2016-04-28T05:50:07Z JoshS: It has a rather kludgy C like sublanguage that isn't compatible with the garbage collector
2016-04-28T05:51:00Z JoshS: so you malloc C data structures and fill them and pass them off...
2016-04-28T05:53:19Z JoshS: Was Dylan gradually typed?
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2016-04-28T05:55:26Z JoshS: aeth, you're arguing as if people write videogames in scheme
2016-04-28T05:55:55Z aeth: JoshS: #lispgames
2016-04-28T05:56:08Z JoshS: Does anyone have a scheme with the right sort of garbage collector for a video game
2016-04-28T05:56:18Z JoshS: it would have to be real-time
2016-04-28T05:57:25Z aeth: not every game is CSGO
2016-04-28T05:57:44Z aeth: Yes, most options aren't good for AAA-quality games, but most people making games aren't making AAA-quality games.
2016-04-28T05:58:10Z aeth: There probably is a Scheme like that, though. There are so many Schemes.
2016-04-28T05:58:30Z JoshS: what does CSGO mean
2016-04-28T05:58:49Z aeth: It's just a FPS game
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2016-04-28T05:58:52Z aeth: Counterstrike Go
2016-04-28T05:59:02Z aeth: Global Offensive?
2016-04-28T05:59:21Z JoshS: I have an interest in garbage collectors
2016-04-28T05:59:30Z JoshS: I would have heard of a real time gc
2016-04-28T06:00:00Z aeth: The proper way to do a game-oriented Scheme is to (1) make it work, (2) make it work properly.
2016-04-28T06:00:08Z aeth: 2 is way more effort
2016-04-28T06:00:23Z JoshS: I'm curious though about chicken scheme
2016-04-28T06:00:28Z JoshS: it does things so strange
2016-04-28T06:01:05Z JoshS: lua is used a lot and it doesn't have the most sophisticated gc
2016-04-28T06:01:19Z aeth: oh, by the way, there is a Lisp (family) game jam starting in 22 hours and lasting for 10 days. https://itch.io/jam/spring-2016-lisp-game-jam
2016-04-28T06:01:20Z JoshS: I guess people just keep the amount of data small enough to handle the load
2016-04-28T06:01:23Z aeth: If anyone here is interested.
2016-04-28T06:01:36Z JoshS: what's a game jam
2016-04-28T06:02:02Z aeth: JoshS: A game jam is a thing in the gamedev community where people make tiny games, usually over the course of a weekend.
2016-04-28T06:02:18Z aeth: The Lisp game jam appears to be 10 days, probably to include two weekends.
2016-04-28T06:02:49Z JoshS: sounds like fun, but not something I'm gonna do this time
2016-04-28T06:03:25Z aeth: It's understandable not to. The libraries aren't very mature right now. Most people who are doing the jam spent days prepping to make sure the libraries have enough features to make a game.
2016-04-28T06:03:37Z JoshS: of course
2016-04-28T06:03:41Z JoshS: or a year prepping
2016-04-28T06:03:54Z JoshS: doing their own games
2016-04-28T06:05:46Z aeth: A year?
2016-04-28T06:05:59Z JoshS: I just mean you have to have your libraries written
2016-04-28T06:06:05Z JoshS: and be used to them
2016-04-28T06:06:08Z aeth: The copyright on my engine is 2013-2016... :-p
2016-04-28T06:06:09Z JoshS: and your tools
2016-04-28T06:06:27Z aeth: I haven't worked continuously on it, though.
2016-04-28T06:06:38Z JoshS: I want to have a homoiconic language but I don't want it to be s-expression based
2016-04-28T06:06:47Z JoshS: I prefer the way prolog does it
2016-04-28T06:07:20Z aeth: You can write a prolog in a lisp. Lisps are actually fairly low level.
2016-04-28T06:07:24Z JoshS: my eye just can't handle it very well... I've written scheme... but I would never argue that it's readable
2016-04-28T06:07:32Z JoshS: I DID write a prolog in scheme
2016-04-28T06:07:35Z JoshS: :P
2016-04-28T06:07:46Z aeth: Anything's readable when you code in it enough.
2016-04-28T06:07:59Z JoshS: ^ I disagree
2016-04-28T06:08:02Z aeth: I prefer long-identifers to cryptic symbols.
2016-04-28T06:08:25Z ecraven: aeth: thanks for that game jam link
2016-04-28T06:08:29Z JoshS: I like operators
2016-04-28T06:08:34Z JoshS: I like syntax
2016-04-28T06:08:52Z aeth: ecraven: you're welcome, I posted it in #lisp the other day but forgot this channel for some reason
2016-04-28T06:09:10Z aeth: Maybe because I didn't finish my Scheme in time for the jam.
2016-04-28T06:09:13Z JoshS: I feel like the working definition of lisp for most people will be "s-expressions"
2016-04-28T06:09:16Z JoshS: which is sad
2016-04-28T06:09:49Z ecraven: JoshS: look at, e.g., chicken's hypergiant for a decent graphics library. that could be used for some decent games
2016-04-28T06:09:50Z aeth: JoshS: s-expressions isn't too far from it. Even GC is optional for a lisp to be a lisp, if you can find a Lispy way to manage memory.
2016-04-28T06:10:21Z JoshS: copy only lisp... bad idea but seductive
2016-04-28T06:10:24Z aeth: ecraven: I think Scheme is probably going to be split between Chicken and Guile, maybe Racket too.
2016-04-28T06:10:29Z ecraven: JoshS: I'd argue Scheme is very readable, after you get used to it
2016-04-28T06:10:33Z ecraven: like any language really.
2016-04-28T06:10:41Z ecraven: most people are used to Algol-like syntax
2016-04-28T06:10:51Z JoshS: I spent months working in racket
2016-04-28T06:11:00Z aeth: (I am talking about the jam in my most recent statement, if that wasn't obvious)
2016-04-28T06:11:08Z JoshS: I work in lua now, I find lua more readable than c
2016-04-28T06:11:11Z JoshS: or scheme
2016-04-28T06:11:21Z wingo: luajit does not only have doubles :P
2016-04-28T06:11:31Z aeth: JoshS: I don't like Lua that much. Not enough syntactic sugar for a C-style language. Iirc, not even a +=
2016-04-28T06:11:38Z aeth: Also, 1-based indexes
2016-04-28T06:11:45Z wingo: it has ints of various widths including 64-bit wide and will specialize to int operations :P
2016-04-28T06:11:47Z JoshS: Lua is better than it looks
2016-04-28T06:11:58Z JoshS: it's better designed than it looks at first glance
2016-04-28T06:12:11Z aeth: I thought we were judging readability by how it looks at first glance?
2016-04-28T06:12:13Z JoshS: it's by a professor who thought more deeply about it than the average script language joe
2016-04-28T06:12:25Z JoshS: readability isn't first glance
2016-04-28T06:12:36Z JoshS: anyway it's conceptually that it looks bad
2016-04-28T06:12:46Z JoshS: the one data structure for everything
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2016-04-28T06:12:55Z JoshS: with weird additions to make it a class
2016-04-28T06:13:01Z JoshS: and make comparisions work
2016-04-28T06:13:10Z JoshS: and arithmetic
2016-04-28T06:13:18Z aeth: I don't do classes in my Lua (or my Scheme)
2016-04-28T06:13:23Z JoshS: it's a lot of kludges, but well balanced
2016-04-28T06:14:11Z JoshS: Well scheme object systems tend to be so slow that you wouldn't use them for a game
2016-04-28T06:14:20Z JoshS: I have a half written one for racket that's fast
2016-04-28T06:14:35Z JoshS: but I couldn't get the macro side of it working well enough
2016-04-28T06:14:52Z aeth: it depends
2016-04-28T06:14:53Z JoshS: and gave up.. the syntactic sugar part was nearly impossible to write
2016-04-28T06:15:01Z aeth: Objects are good for public-facing stuff, even if they're not that fast.
2016-04-28T06:15:13Z aeth: As long as it stays at the right framerate
2016-04-28T06:15:24Z ecraven: why not just use a functional interface with opaque data?
2016-04-28T06:15:25Z aeth: Internally, you want to use the fastest stuff, of course.
2016-04-28T06:15:27Z ecraven: like any C interface?
2016-04-28T06:15:46Z JoshS: in my tests, a better designed object system was an order of magnitude faster than the one built in
2016-04-28T06:15:53Z aeth: ecraven: Objects are good to extend things with
2016-04-28T06:16:09Z aeth: JoshS: well, it's not better, it's faster. There isn't really a better, there are just tradeoffs.
2016-04-28T06:16:17Z aeth: Games have different needs than some other applications.
2016-04-28T06:16:44Z ecraven: JoshS: I'm guessing the built-in one did a lot more than yours does?
2016-04-28T06:16:48Z JoshS: Racket has a lot of "it works conceptually and it's not designed to be usably fast" features
2016-04-28T06:17:13Z JoshS: ecraven if mine does as much as Ruby, who cares if the built in one does more?
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2016-04-28T06:19:02Z ecraven: JoshS: look at CLOS. that does more than *any* system I know of, and seems to be plenty fast enough
2016-04-28T06:19:04Z JoshS: mine was ducktyped, and the trick was that it was coded like virtual methods in C++... ie all possible selectors have a predefined slot position
2016-04-28T06:19:16Z ecraven: JoshS: that works well until you need multimethods
2016-04-28T06:19:29Z JoshS: most languages don't have multimethods
2016-04-28T06:20:19Z ecraven: look at these three articles: http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2016/a-polyglots-guide-to-multiple-dispatch
2016-04-28T06:20:26Z ecraven: the examples in C++ are atrocious
2016-04-28T06:20:30Z ecraven: CLOS is very nice
2016-04-28T06:20:36Z ecraven: python is ... maybe ok?
2016-04-28T06:20:40Z JoshS: I'm willing to say C++ is atrocious
2016-04-28T06:20:43Z ecraven: so multi-methods are very much a useful thing
2016-04-28T06:20:46Z JoshS: I'm running away from C++
2016-04-28T06:20:49Z ecraven: most people just don't know about them at all
2016-04-28T06:20:50Z aeth: ecraven: that seems to be a general judgment on those languages too :-p
2016-04-28T06:21:07Z ecraven: aeth: sorry, only about the specifics of implementing and using multimethods
2016-04-28T06:21:09Z ecraven: not in general
2016-04-28T06:21:17Z ecraven: C++14 is actually almost decent :)
2016-04-28T06:21:22Z JoshS: but slowing your language down to solve technical problems isn't so great
2016-04-28T06:21:30Z JoshS: sometimes you can just say "code differently"
2016-04-28T06:21:45Z ecraven: well, if you implement things properly, they don't have to be so slow
2016-04-28T06:22:06Z aeth: ecraven: It doesn't matter how many features you add to a language if the culture and conventions and history produce bad code.
2016-04-28T06:22:16Z JoshS: ^ what do you mean?
2016-04-28T06:22:19Z aeth: Even the Lisp family had to start over with Scheme and Common Lisp to have its nice things.
2016-04-28T06:22:32Z JoshS: scheme is missing some nice things
2016-04-28T06:22:40Z JoshS: like an eval that takes an environment
2016-04-28T06:22:48Z JoshS: there's politics there
2016-04-28T06:23:02Z aeth: Scheme as in the Scheme as defined in r7rs is missing quite a few nice things, many of them defined in srfi-1.
2016-04-28T06:23:39Z JoshS: People are talking about modern fexprs now, but they've defined them in a way that's too inefficient for my taste
2016-04-28T06:23:52Z JoshS: see John Shutt
2016-04-28T06:24:07Z JoshS: and Kernel
2016-04-28T06:24:41Z aeth: A lot of people don't care about efficiency anymore. I think games, mobile, and embedded are the three areas that still care. And pretty soon mobile will stop caring except for mobile games.
2016-04-28T06:25:08Z JoshS: It's possible to define a feature that's SO inefficient that it still matters
2016-04-28T06:25:19Z JoshS: and Shutt's version of fexprs are one
2016-04-28T06:25:36Z JoshS: when you take two orders of magnitude from a language
2016-04-28T06:25:39Z aeth: A lot of people make the programmer time vs. computer time argument, ignoring that you can design languages to hit a sweet spot.
2016-04-28T06:25:39Z JoshS: you've gone too far
2016-04-28T06:25:50Z aeth: oh, two
2016-04-28T06:25:54Z aeth: Usually it's just one
2016-04-28T06:25:57Z JoshS: I know
2016-04-28T06:26:10Z JoshS: maybe I'm off base but I don't think so
2016-04-28T06:26:23Z JoshS: he's broken the identification between ID and environment
2016-04-28T06:26:30Z JoshS: ie variables
2016-04-28T06:26:44Z JoshS: it asks user code "how do I map this"
2016-04-28T06:27:55Z JoshS: http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html
2016-04-28T06:28:10Z JoshS: http://klisp.org/
2016-04-28T06:28:26Z ecraven: foof`: how do I get the currently active environment or module?
2016-04-28T06:28:31Z JoshS: I have a lot of respect for John
2016-04-28T06:29:07Z JoshS: his page seems down
2016-04-28T06:30:34Z JoshS: http://axisofeval.blogspot.com/search/label/kernel
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2016-04-28T06:35:20Z JoshS: i want to work, but I need to sleep
2016-04-28T06:35:28Z JoshS: so good night #scheme
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2016-04-28T07:03:23Z ecraven: foof`: is it possible that (chibi modules) containing-module is broken? it seems to always return #f for me
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2016-04-28T07:48:49Z webshinra: hey people, I'm learning scheme and try to convert an (a b c d [e f...] ) list to the form ((a b) (c d) [(e f) ...]) at this moment, I'have it done like this : http://www.pasteall.org/68762/scheme
2016-04-28T07:49:05Z webshinra: can you give me advice on a better way to do it?
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2016-04-28T07:59:49Z ecraven: why don't you like this way
2016-04-28T08:02:16Z webshinra: Hum, having no experience I suppose it's not good/elegant/efficient, even if it work
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2016-04-28T10:15:40Z lalex: webshinra: you could look at (unzip2 ) and use (concatenate (map (lambda (a b) (cons a b)) (unzip2 your-list)))
2016-04-28T10:15:57Z lalex: or more (apply map ... )
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2016-04-28T10:54:01Z webshinra: lalex, ok, thanks
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2016-04-28T12:00:42Z foof`: ecraven: hmmm, it depends on your search path
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2016-04-28T12:10:45Z ecraven: available-modules works fine, so it seems to actually find modules
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2016-04-28T12:24:15Z foof`: i'll double check it didn't break
2016-04-28T12:24:22Z foof`: lots of things actually depend on that
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2016-04-28T12:30:38Z ecraven: I installed git as of a few days ago
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2016-04-28T13:31:18Z manumanumanu: So
2016-04-28T13:31:28Z manumanumanu: oops. sorry.
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2016-04-28T16:38:47Z jcowan: hey hey
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2016-04-28T16:47:43Z xieyuheng: yo yo
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2016-04-28T17:07:14Z lalex: that point, when your implemented language becomes capable enoughto implement itself
2016-04-28T17:08:26Z lalex: never had that yet, but now I'm wondering whether I should just bootstrap the whole thing and scap away the first implementation
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2016-04-28T17:10:56Z pjb: lalex: yes, basically.
2016-04-28T17:11:39Z Riastradh: lalex: It is never a good idea to scrap the first implementation, unless you replace it by an alternative cross-build.
2016-04-28T17:11:43Z pjb: lalex: the alternative is to write your compiler in your language, then to write an interpreter for the subset of your language you actually used in your compiler, and use the interpreter to compile the compiler, then use the obtained compiler to compile the compiler.
2016-04-28T17:12:17Z Riastradh: Discarding cross-builds makes it impossible for someone else to independently reproduce your results.
2016-04-28T17:12:32Z Riastradh: (s/impossible/painful and difficult/1)
2016-04-28T17:12:38Z pjb: Well, arguably, one would write a new implementation.
2016-04-28T17:12:48Z pjb: That being painful or difficult only depends on the language.
2016-04-28T17:13:03Z lalex: hmm
2016-04-28T17:13:08Z Riastradh: In practice, that is hardly ever done because it is so much work.
2016-04-28T17:13:20Z pjb:  Not when you use lisp or scheme as a basis for your language :-)
2016-04-28T17:13:32Z lalex: the hosting language is interpreted, so one would just need the source of the first bootstrap iteration to build the next
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2016-04-28T17:14:04Z lalex: I guess chicken went that way, or was it built in some other scheme
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2016-04-28T17:15:19Z jcowan: In Gambit.
2016-04-28T17:16:27Z lalex: hmmm
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2016-04-28T17:16:53Z lalex: Riastradh: the point is, when I don't scrap the original, I ahve to maintain it - kind of
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2016-04-28T17:25:03Z pjb: not really: just keep it in the git repo.
2016-04-28T17:25:16Z lalex: damn, I have to convert from hg to git?
2016-04-28T17:25:16Z pjb: You check it out only when it's needed to compile version 2.
2016-04-28T17:25:27Z lalex: :)
2016-04-28T17:25:34Z lalex: I guess I'll do that
2016-04-28T17:26:41Z lalex: I wonder, is GCC compileable with some other C compiler?
2016-04-28T17:26:56Z mejja: No.
2016-04-28T17:27:01Z pjb: Not anymore.
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2016-04-28T17:28:09Z pjb: But it's harder to do in C.  In Common Lisp, sbcl can be compiled any conforming CL compiler or interpreter (it's routinely compiled with ccl or clisp, in addition to itself).
2016-04-28T17:28:11Z lalex: so, if the "original reproducibility is not an issue for GCC, which is way more important than my little sandbox here at home, I should not worry (at least stuff is in a repo after all)
2016-04-28T17:28:54Z pjb: If you worry about it, you could just maintain a script that would be able to do the checkouts from the first release and compile all the successive versions N with the N-1 compiler.
2016-04-28T17:29:28Z davexunit: +1 Riastradh
2016-04-28T17:29:30Z lalex: hmmm
2016-04-28T17:29:45Z davexunit: this bootstrapping issue is a real problem in the reproducible builds project
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2016-04-28T17:30:11Z Riastradh: lalex: GCC:  C, no; C++, I believe so -- I am pretty sure GCC is compilable with Clang.
2016-04-28T17:30:15Z davexunit: we need more compilers that can be bootstrapped from source, without using a pre-built compiler.
2016-04-28T17:30:19Z mejja: pjb: It's harder to hit a moving target like C and or Scheme.  Cobol Lisp is a dead language..
2016-04-28T17:32:23Z lalex: davexunit: it's not enough to keep around the output of the destination language, that compiles well in the original hosting language?
2016-04-28T17:33:57Z davexunit: lalex: I can't quite parse what you wrote, but the bottom line is: if the user needs to rely on something that isn't source code (keeping in mind that machine generated code is not source code, it's a build artifact) then there is a fundamental reproducibility problem
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2016-04-28T17:36:54Z lalex: davexunit: well, the source code (compiler output) would be human readable, even well readable in this case. even tough it's autogenerated (compiled).
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2016-04-28T17:41:55Z davexunit: lalex: that's not source code, then.
2016-04-28T17:43:13Z davexunit: source code is what humans write and edit.  the Chicken Scheme compiler can output C code, for example, but it's not source code.
2016-04-28T17:47:32Z cojy: "without using a pre-built compiler" isn't possible
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2016-04-28T17:49:08Z davexunit: cojy: without using a pre-built compiler that is the same as the compiler you are compiling.
2016-04-28T17:49:24Z davexunit: for example, Guile can be bootstrapped without needing a pre-built Guile compiler.
2016-04-28T17:49:38Z davexunit: because there's an interpreter written in C for bootstrapping.
2016-04-28T17:49:40Z cojy: but it needs a pre-build gcc compiler which is 1000x worse than requiring a pre-build guile compiler
2016-04-28T17:49:46Z davexunit: no it's not
2016-04-28T17:49:50Z davexunit: it's one less bootstrap binary
2016-04-28T17:49:57Z cojy: no its not
2016-04-28T17:49:58Z cojy: you need gcc
2016-04-28T17:50:21Z davexunit: but an OS doesn't need GCC *and* Guile now
2016-04-28T17:50:23Z cojy: assuming gcc as a given is pretty bad, in an ideal world nobody would even have or need it on their computer
2016-04-28T17:50:32Z davexunit: you are missing the point
2016-04-28T17:50:50Z davexunit: I work on Guix, and this is a serious problem.
2016-04-28T17:50:59Z cojy: yes but there's no solution to it
2016-04-28T17:51:02Z davexunit: yes there is
2016-04-28T17:51:16Z davexunit: the reproducible builds community is working towards it
2016-04-28T17:51:22Z davexunit: it's not easy, but there's a solution
2016-04-28T17:51:25Z z0d: cojy: what is so bad about GCC?
2016-04-28T17:51:28Z cojy: there is nothign you gain from having a pre-built gcc than a pre-built guile
2016-04-28T17:51:34Z davexunit: YES THERE IS
2016-04-28T17:51:58Z davexunit: it reduces the set of bootstrap binaries needed for an operating system, which reduces the set of binaries that need to be taken for granted.
2016-04-28T17:52:09Z cojy: only if your operating system assumes gcc though
2016-04-28T17:52:20Z davexunit: any GNU/Linux system needs GCC
2016-04-28T17:52:30Z davexunit: bootstrapping GCC is another project
2016-04-28T17:53:04Z davexunit: this year for GSoC we have a student that is implementing a Bourne-compatible shell interpreter in Guile so that we can remove Bash from our bootstrap binaries
2016-04-28T17:53:18Z z0d: wow
2016-04-28T17:53:24Z ecraven: wow, nice project!
2016-04-28T17:53:24Z z0d: that's.... wow
2016-04-28T17:53:27Z davexunit: reducing the bootstrap binaries has serious wins
2016-04-28T17:53:42Z davexunit: it's a problem that needs to be tackled from many directions
2016-04-28T17:53:46Z z0d: he'll probably have to write a lot of hairy code though
2016-04-28T17:53:46Z ecraven: I should really look into guixsd, have been using nixos so far
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2016-04-28T17:54:49Z davexunit: bootstrapping GCC is possible, but indeed a very hard project that will need cooperation from many parties.
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2016-04-28T17:55:15Z Earnestly: Should (atom? (quote ())) return #f as () isn't an atom but a list?
2016-04-28T17:56:05Z ecraven: davexunit: gcc can be bootstrapped on another c compiler?
2016-04-28T17:56:13Z davexunit: ecraven: that would be the project
2016-04-28T17:56:22Z cojy: Earnestly: it's atomic so it should return #t
2016-04-28T17:56:24Z ecraven: davexunit: well, can that even be done? :)
2016-04-28T17:56:25Z cojy: indivisible
2016-04-28T17:56:42Z davexunit: ecraven: yes, but it will require research and hard work.
2016-04-28T17:56:49Z Earnestly: cojy: Hm, but according to Sussman it should be #f as () isn't an atom but "just a list" (or an empty list)
2016-04-28T17:56:59Z Earnestly: ecraven: gcc bootstraps itself, fwiw
2016-04-28T17:57:10Z ecraven: Earnestly: which is a problem if you don't have gcc binaries :p
2016-04-28T17:57:18Z ecraven: münchhausen ftw
2016-04-28T17:57:38Z jackdaniel: trust your trust mr Thomphson
2016-04-28T17:57:44Z Earnestly: ecraven: No you need an assembler
2016-04-28T17:57:55Z datagrok: this bootstrapping conversation reminds me of http://homepage.ntlworld.com/edmund.grimley-evans/bcompiler.html
2016-04-28T17:58:00Z jackdaniel: Thomson (or something like that :P)
2016-04-28T17:58:24Z Earnestly: jackdaniel: Ken Thompson, Trusting Trust, yeah.  See Wheeler's "Fully Countering Trusting Trust through DDC"
2016-04-28T17:58:44Z jackdaniel: Earnestly: I will, thanks :)
2016-04-28T18:02:12Z jcowan: Earnestly: atom? is generally defined as not pair?.
2016-04-28T18:02:18Z jcowan: () is a list but not a pair.
2016-04-28T18:03:21Z Earnestly: jcowan: Yeah I've seen how it's generally defined, but it seems to be at odds with how Sussman defined it, and it seems odd further still as car and cdr depend on non-empty lists, which must then mean scheme programmers essentially do the same test everywhere
2016-04-28T18:06:23Z jcowan: I rarely see atom? in actual code.
2016-04-28T18:06:37Z cojy: always pair?
2016-04-28T18:07:01Z cojy: or null?
2016-04-28T18:07:04Z Earnestly: How often do you use (not (pair? x)) (not (null? x))
2016-04-28T18:07:13Z cojy: never
2016-04-28T18:07:26Z Earnestly: cojy: You just said you used pair? and null?
2016-04-28T18:07:36Z cojy: neither together like that
2016-04-28T18:08:04Z ecraven: Earnestly: how do you get all of gcc as assembly code?
2016-04-28T18:08:43Z Earnestly: ecraven: You don't, it creates a bootstrap which builds an intermediate gcc which then builds gcc proper
2016-04-28T18:12:34Z lalex: hmmm so i should not rewrite my compiler. even though i just need lua to run the compiler
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2016-04-28T18:14:41Z Earnestly: ecraven: (gcc can use a compiler (cc1) to build, so it should work with tcc, or pcc, etc.)
2016-04-28T18:15:25Z leppie: personally I dont see a problem with a bootstrap binary/blob if it is portable across platforms (iow bytecode)
2016-04-28T18:15:53Z Earnestly: leppie: If you want to make sure it's not backdoored or anything, see http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/dissertation/html/wheeler-trusting-trust-ddc.html
2016-04-28T18:15:54Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/pu2D47w2GJ
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2016-04-28T18:19:12Z lalex: so the problem disappears if the output is human readable
2016-04-28T18:21:02Z jcowan: If you are doing a general typecase, you normally want to identify concrete types such as pair, number, or string.  If you are descending by lists, you typically want null?.  If by trees, you want pair?.
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2016-04-28T23:02:58Z |2701: T is a really neat language, what killed it? Any scheme historians that know about it?
2016-04-28T23:03:29Z Riastradh: The authors all moved on to other projects.
2016-04-28T23:04:11Z wasamasa: programming languages don't exactly die, people just stop using them
2016-04-28T23:04:12Z Riastradh: You can find some links here: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/scheme_family/#T_
2016-04-28T23:04:56Z |2701: oooo, Riastradh thanks! this is just what I was looking for.
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2016-04-28T23:07:00Z |2701: what a shame that they left it alone, those papers are about an optimizing compiler and a high-performance implementation. they were making so much progress on it
2016-04-28T23:08:53Z |2701: they taught T at UCLA, they used it JPL, even ol' Paul Graham said he liked it at some point, according to http://mumble.net/~jar/tproject/index.html
2016-04-28T23:09:09Z Riastradh: Happens to research projects.  Later T was used to write the Yale Haskell system, and Haskell took off far more than T did.
2016-04-28T23:09:51Z |2701: haskellers sort of ruin everything sometimes
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2016-04-28T23:17:51Z mejja: R6 I/O is a mess.
2016-04-28T23:21:08Z |2701: R6 everything is a mess
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2016-04-28T23:25:37Z jcowan: I've got a very draft proposal for something to replace it, mejja.
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2016-04-28T23:34:09Z jcowan: mejja: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/SettingsListsCowan
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2016-04-29T04:25:20Z aeth: In case anyone is wondering, the Lisp game jam has started.
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2016-04-29T05:25:39Z ecraven: foof`: great, thank you!
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2016-04-29T05:31:19Z ecraven: foof`: thanks :) seems to work better now, but errors on (containing-module +)
2016-04-29T05:31:40Z ecraven: foof`: ERROR in final-resumer: non procedure application: #<undef>
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2016-04-29T07:15:40Z taylan: jcowan: where can one comment on the proposals on trac.sacrideo.us?
2016-04-29T07:16:25Z taylan: one quick comment: stdin-redirection and stdout-redirection are a mouthful.  I'd name them either just stdin/stdout, or to be more readable and less history-dependent, just input/output
2016-04-29T07:17:06Z taylan: another comment would be why "settings lists" instead of keyword arguments, but I figure standardizing keyword arguments is a frustrating task
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2016-04-29T07:17:29Z taylan: still, I would try to go in their direction
2016-04-29T07:22:06Z taylan: hmm, SRFI-89 has the annoyance that one has to name both the keyword and the variable to be bound, rather than deriving one from the other (by adding/removing the colon).
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2016-04-29T14:49:32Z velco: so I configure chez with --installprefix=$HOME/opt/chez --installman=$HOME/opt/chez/share/man; make && make install
2016-04-29T14:49:36Z velco: and it all goes well
2016-04-29T14:49:58Z velco: and then when I try to run it I get "cannot find compatible scheme.boot in search path"
2016-04-29T14:50:10Z velco: has anyone seen this and know what to fix ?
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2016-04-29T15:10:22Z jcowan: Yes, it's a known issue.
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2016-04-29T15:23:11Z ecraven: velco: you need to explicitly pass the path to your .boot file, if it isn't in the default path
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2016-04-29T15:24:15Z wasamasa: they could, like, not make the symlink to it absolute
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2016-04-29T15:26:35Z velco: scheme -b ~/opt/chez/lib/csv9.4/a6le/petite.boot does work
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2016-04-29T15:27:03Z jcowan: velco: probably should discuss it in #chez
2016-04-29T15:27:05Z velco: scheme -b ~/opt/chez/lib/csv9.4/a6le/scheme.boot says "cannot find subordinate boot file petite.boot"
2016-04-29T15:27:11Z velco: ah, ok
2016-04-29T15:27:13Z velco: thanks
2016-04-29T15:27:20Z jcowan: not because it's off-topic, but just because there are lots of Chezfolk there, including from the team
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2016-04-29T15:45:54Z ecraven: velco: you need -b twice, once for scheme.boot, once for petite.boot, I think
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2016-04-29T15:48:21Z velco: thanks, that did it, petite before scheme
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2016-04-29T18:17:23Z |2701: is chez faster than guile?
2016-04-29T18:17:42Z jcowan: In compiled code, almost certainly yes.
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2016-04-29T18:24:38Z davexunit: would need a benchmark against guile 2.2
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2016-04-29T18:27:53Z jcowan: A benchmark that showed that a bytecode VM without a JIT beat an AOT native code compiler would be, to say the least, suspect.
2016-04-29T18:28:05Z jcowan: Or does 2.2 have a JIT now?
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2016-04-29T18:28:21Z davexunit: I didn't know chez had a jit compiler
2016-04-29T18:28:31Z davexunit: guile doesn't yet have a jit compiler
2016-04-29T18:28:55Z jcowan: chez is an aot compiler
2016-04-29T18:30:18Z jcowan: A more interesting question would be Guile vs. Petite Chez, because although Petite is also a VM without a JIT, it uses a lot of the front end of the Chez compiler
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2016-04-29T19:10:18Z xieyuheng: can chez do stack backtracing when I wish to debug my code ?
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2016-04-29T19:14:57Z wasamasa: could people discussing chez please go to its channel
2016-04-29T19:15:24Z Riastradh: What's wrong with discussing Chez in #scheme?
2016-04-29T19:15:54Z wasamasa: it's a suboptimal place for it :>
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2016-04-29T19:16:55Z Menche: Ches *is* a scheme implementation, isn't it?
2016-04-29T19:16:57Z Menche: Chez*
2016-04-29T19:17:03Z Menche isn't sure how it's offtopic
2016-04-29T19:17:12Z wasamasa: yeah and you can find more knowledgeable people on a scheme implementation on its channel
2016-04-29T19:17:16Z xieyuheng: wasamasa: I should have asked this in #chez, which is the optimal place for it.
2016-04-29T19:17:23Z Menche: yeah
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2016-04-29T19:18:00Z Menche: we have a bot that speaks Racket in here
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2016-04-29T19:19:13Z jcowan: Discussing two different implementations at the same time is obvs on topic for #scheme.
2016-04-29T19:19:18Z xieyuheng: I really hope we could have a best implementation one day, good at debugging and fast.
2016-04-29T19:19:46Z wasamasa: I suspect these goals aren't exactly orthogonal
2016-04-29T19:19:48Z Menche is searching for the ideal R7RS implmentation
2016-04-29T19:20:00Z Menche: I have gauche (gosh), chibi, and picrin installed
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2016-04-29T19:20:30Z wasamasa: well, ok, SBCL is looking good for that, too bad it's not exactly elegant :P
2016-04-29T19:20:40Z Menche: and not scheme
2016-04-29T19:20:42Z Menche: :P
2016-04-29T19:21:21Z Menche: I used to also have chicken and racket, with their respective R7RS plugins
2016-04-29T19:21:54Z xieyuheng: Menche: my friend is using another three for r7rs, here is his example :: https://github.com/orchid-hybrid/microKanren-sagittarius
2016-04-29T19:23:42Z jcowan: In the nature of things, some Schemes are better at some things than others, because Scheme implementers don't all care about the same issues.
2016-04-29T19:23:47Z jcowan: That's why we have horse races.
2016-04-29T19:24:39Z Menche: rudybot, (/ 3 2)
2016-04-29T19:24:40Z rudybot: Menche: your sandbox is ready
2016-04-29T19:24:40Z rudybot: Menche: ; Value: 3/2
2016-04-29T19:24:41Z mejja: And, more importantly, hamburgers..
2016-04-29T19:24:59Z Menche: picrin doesn't seem to correctly handle exactness
2016-04-29T19:25:06Z Menche: (/ 3 2) produces 1.5
2016-04-29T19:25:47Z jcowan: Huh.
2016-04-29T19:26:11Z jcowan: Nor does it understand #e or #i
2016-04-29T19:26:22Z Menche: right, noticed that too
2016-04-29T19:27:06Z jcowan: Nor 1/2 (the literal)
2016-04-29T19:27:18Z Menche: making sure it starts out exact with (/ (exact 3) (exact 2)) doesn't change anything
2016-04-29T19:27:27Z jcowan: But (/ 3 2) => 1.5 is not contrary to R7RS
2016-04-29T19:27:39Z jcowan looks at NumericTower
2016-04-29T19:27:45Z |2701: I was just about to ask if R7RS actually specifies that
2016-04-29T19:28:26Z jcowan: No, it allows three results:  3/2, 1.5, or an implementation-restricttion error
2016-04-29T19:28:36Z jcowan: Huh, Picrin is too new to have reached that page
2016-04-29T19:28:40Z jcowan: fixing...
2016-04-29T19:28:49Z Menche: ah
2016-04-29T19:29:11Z Menche: so is the fractional format completely optional?
2016-04-29T19:29:16Z xieyuheng: the price is to high to race those horses, when the game is making programmers  hard to share portable code, thus hard to cooperate with each other.
2016-04-29T19:29:51Z |2701: I'm sort of inclined to agree with xieyuheng here
2016-04-29T19:30:32Z Menche: (exact (/ 3 2)) produces 1
2016-04-29T19:30:54Z Menche: rudybot, (exact (/ 3 2))
2016-04-29T19:30:54Z rudybot: Menche: error: exact: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2016-04-29T19:31:02Z jcowan: Okay, Picrin is a broken-fixnum-flonum format
2016-04-29T19:31:09Z Menche: hrm, so racket doesn't have that
2016-04-29T19:31:17Z jcowan: Menche: try inexact->exact
2016-04-29T19:31:19Z Menche: ?
2016-04-29T19:31:21Z Menche: oh
2016-04-29T19:31:26Z leppie: rudybot: (inexact->exact 1.5)
2016-04-29T19:31:26Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: 3/2
2016-04-29T19:31:43Z Menche: rudybot, (inexact->exact (/ 3 2))
2016-04-29T19:31:44Z rudybot: Menche: ; Value: 3/2
2016-04-29T19:31:57Z Menche: is it incorrect to produce 1 there?
2016-04-29T19:32:10Z jcowan: I don't think so
2016-04-29T19:32:55Z jcowan: arguably it should be 2 for consistency
2016-04-29T19:33:33Z jcowan: Picrin violates R7RS by not checking for fixnum overflow
2016-04-29T19:33:58Z jcowan: > 1000000000000000000000000000000
2016-04-29T19:33:59Z jcowan: 1073741824
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2016-04-29T19:34:37Z jcowan: R7RS says exact produces the nearest representable exact number, but is silent on what to do when there are two equally good candidates.
2016-04-29T19:34:59Z |2701: how can there be two nearest numbers?
2016-04-29T19:35:09Z Menche: 1.5 is halfway in between 1 and 2
2016-04-29T19:35:17Z |2701: oh,  that. gotcha
2016-04-29T19:35:22Z Menche: it is conventional to round *up*
2016-04-29T19:35:31Z |2701: I should think so
2016-04-29T19:35:36Z jcowan: I suspect Picrin is simply truncating
2016-04-29T19:35:47Z jcowan: i.e. round toward 0
2016-04-29T19:35:56Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/NumericTower updated
2016-04-29T19:36:04Z leppie: or doing a c-style cast
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2016-04-29T19:38:55Z mejja: Rudybot: #e1@1
2016-04-29T19:39:46Z leppie: jcowan: can you not fix the link on the logo not to go to http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/TracIni#header_logo-section ?
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2016-04-29T19:42:09Z leppie: rudybot: #e1@1
2016-04-29T19:42:09Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: 1216652631687587/2251799813685248+3789648413623927/4503599627370496i
2016-04-29T19:43:18Z Menche: so it's perfectly legal for an implementation to only have integers for exact numbers?
2016-04-29T19:48:27Z jcowan is rather proud of the analysis of NumericTower: just four binary flags captures all the variability in the R[57]RS numeric tower.  (Well, you need to extend it to capture what kinds of complex numbers exist, if any.)
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2016-04-29T19:51:59Z leppie: jcowan: IronScheme (tries to) supports both exact and inexact complex numbers (how well? I dunno...)
2016-04-29T19:52:19Z jcowan: hmm, did I miss that?
2016-04-29T19:53:06Z jcowan: Yeah, exactly what it says on the tin:  3+4.0i is eqv? to 3.0+4.0i
2016-04-29T19:53:14Z jcowan: so exact and inexact but not mixed.
2016-04-29T19:53:21Z jcowan: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/ComplexRepresentations
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2016-04-29T21:25:04Z tm512: is it possible to have pointers in scheme? I'd like for a field in this record-type to point to an object in a list
2016-04-29T21:26:30Z Riastradh: Not directly.  Indirectly, you can store the pair from the list whose car is the object, and then take the car of that to obtain the current object, or use set-car! to replace it by another one.
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2016-04-29T21:27:49Z tm512: I was hoping that the accessor would return the object directly, instead of requiring me to use car every time I wanted to access it
2016-04-29T21:28:13Z tm512: I guess I could use let, if I used it a lot, but still, not exactly what I want
2016-04-29T21:30:43Z aeth: It's probably good enough.
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2016-04-29T21:36:32Z tm512: can I redefine the accessor? maybe I could roll my own structure just with an alist and accessor/modifier functions
2016-04-29T21:39:08Z jcowan: leppie: Given that mixed complex numbers aren't really a thing semantically, the only issue turns out to be, does a Scheme have both exact and inexact complex numbers, or just inexact, or neither
2016-04-29T21:39:29Z jcowan: the exception being Owl Lisp, which has no inexact numbers but does have complex numbers, a weird case.
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2016-04-29T21:43:03Z Riastradh: Wonder what you can get done with just the Gaussian integers.
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2016-04-29T21:53:21Z ski . o O ( "Eisenstein integers" )
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2016-04-29T21:57:29Z jcowan: I've thought about that too, but never came up with anything.
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2016-04-30T02:26:01Z leo_song: hi, i'm learning using Scheme, are there any library managers for Scheme like QuickLisp in Common Lisp? Thanks.
2016-04-30T02:32:25Z lucas__: hi, I've started working with scmutils in mit/gnu scheme and there's an example where a function is defined through it's Taylor's series approximation... anyway, there's a symbolic calculation involved that's only necessary to do once, but I can't find the way to define a function to do that
2016-04-30T02:33:26Z lucas__: what I've got is something like this: (define (my-function t) (Taylor-expand parameters t))
2016-04-30T02:35:05Z lucas__: any idea on how to expand the taylor series just once? Thanks and if this is not the place to make such question, sorry.
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2016-04-30T04:01:15Z aeth: leo_song: Each Scheme has its own library manager, if it has one. Scheme is a small language, so the implementations are too incompatible most of the time.
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2016-04-30T04:37:40Z leo_song: aeth: a little disappointed T_T. thanks for reply.
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2016-04-30T04:53:49Z aeth: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggs https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/libraries/ https://pkgs.racket-lang.org/#
2016-04-30T04:53:52Z aeth: etc.
2016-04-30T04:54:25Z aeth: (Chicken, Guile, Racket)
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2016-04-30T07:08:00Z davorb: leo_song: i don't think there's one that works across all implementations, but both chicken and racket have their own. i think most of the larger implementations do.
2016-04-30T07:08:18Z davorb: oh, just saw that someone else has answered your question
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2016-04-30T09:10:17Z wasamasa: leo_song: r7rs is the standard promising enough compatibility for libraries being used across all implementations of it
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2016-04-30T09:10:36Z wasamasa: leo_song: but it's not as mature as r5rs or r6rs yet
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2016-04-30T09:26:58Z groovy2shoes: wasamasa, really?  I feel like it's got roughly as many implementations as r6rs at this point
2016-04-30T09:27:07Z groovy2shoes: but maybe not
2016-04-30T09:27:13Z groovy2shoes: maybe it's just wishful thinking
2016-04-30T09:27:27Z wasamasa: it's not about the number, it's about the work invested into it
2016-04-30T09:27:43Z groovy2shoes: ah, then I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean
2016-04-30T09:28:06Z wasamasa: or is there one where all the libraries are flocking to?
2016-04-30T09:28:40Z groovy2shoes: I don't think that ever happened, even for r6rs...
2016-04-30T09:29:52Z groovy2shoes: anyway, I've been pretty disappointed by the adoption rate for r7rs, and I worry that Scheme is dying
2016-04-30T09:30:31Z groovy2shoes: I personally feel like r7rs is the best report yet (not without its flaws, though)
2016-04-30T09:31:05Z groovy2shoes: when I first read it, I thought implementors would be flocking to add the dozen or so new features to their r5rs implementations, but apparently not
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2016-04-30T09:45:31Z ecraven: r7rs-small is still too small to write a wide variety of (interesting) libraries (portably), isn't it?
2016-04-30T09:46:09Z mejja: rudybot: r7rs-small is too big!
2016-04-30T09:46:11Z rudybot: mejja: is r7rs really a double standard? there seem to be a big and a small set.
2016-04-30T09:46:48Z ecraven: mejja: then it's too big *and* too small at the same time :)
2016-04-30T09:47:10Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, that's possibly true, but it's at least large enough that there's a great deal of interesting libraries that are possible to write portably
2016-04-30T09:47:22Z groovy2shoes: certainly a compromise, but far more than r5rs, for example
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2016-04-30T09:47:43Z groovy2shoes: and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it were approximately the same space as r6rs
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2016-04-30T11:54:20Z xieyuheng: what's r7rs' opinion about [] and {} ?
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2016-04-30T12:07:49Z dpk: xieyuheng: "reserved for possible future extensions to the language" (R7RS Small 2.3)
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2016-04-30T12:11:45Z groovy2shoes: really might as well just go ahead and make that [] synonym... it's already pretty damn widespread
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2016-04-30T12:23:24Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: personally, I don't support that :)
2016-04-30T12:23:36Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, why not?
2016-04-30T12:23:50Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: unnecessary duplication
2016-04-30T12:23:57Z groovy2shoes: I never liked it much, myself, but seems like most implementations support it
2016-04-30T12:24:08Z groovy2shoes: not sure what else to use it for
2016-04-30T12:24:16Z groovy2shoes: frankly, I'd like to use it for vectors
2016-04-30T12:24:26Z groovy2shoes: never really liked the #(...), but I'm used to it by now
2016-04-30T12:24:28Z ecraven: if it were syntax for vectors or whatever, then I'd be willing to discuss it, but just as an alternative for ()? seems rather useless
2016-04-30T12:24:52Z ecraven: just use a decent editor, then there's no problem in counting () :)
2016-04-30T12:24:56Z groovy2shoes: well, supposedly it helps to break up the monotony and aids readability
2016-04-30T12:25:14Z groovy2shoes: the rule is that any time you'd have ((, you wind up with ([ instead
2016-04-30T12:25:15Z ecraven: personally, I read based on indentation, and not based on parens
2016-04-30T12:25:21Z ecraven: I don't even see the parentheses
2016-04-30T12:25:21Z groovy2shoes: likewise
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2016-04-30T12:32:05Z dpk: it's not inconceivable that R7RS Large will use them for something
2016-04-30T12:32:23Z dpk: {} is also reserved by R7RS Small and is used by Chibi for printing record type instances
2016-04-30T12:34:17Z ecraven: just as a feeling and without thinking about it too much, [] for arrays/vectors and {} for hashmap literals wouldn't be the worst idea
2016-04-30T12:36:49Z dpk: the latter is possible, but again, [] for vectors has the 'duplicating syntax for no real benefit' problem
2016-04-30T12:36:58Z ecraven: though I don't find #() too complicated, so that's fine for vectors
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2016-04-30T12:39:32Z ecraven: even #[] or #{} for hashmaps would be ok, but *some* way of writing hash map literals would be really nice
2016-04-30T12:40:02Z dpk: agreed
2016-04-30T12:40:15Z ecraven: was any ever discussed? can't be the first thing this comes up
2016-04-30T12:41:54Z dpk: i'm sure it has been discussed many times, but i don't think any solid proposal (e.g. SRFI draft) has ever been made
2016-04-30T12:42:33Z ecraven: racket seems to have #hash(...)
2016-04-30T12:43:21Z dpk: hmm, producing a SRFI 69 table?
2016-04-30T12:43:35Z ecraven: https://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/hash-tables.html
2016-04-30T12:43:56Z taylan: ecraven: SRFI 126 specifies hash table syntax, but the only implementation is Guile
2016-04-30T12:44:26Z taylan: well, it's equivalent to Racket's syntax, and wrapping Racket's hash table code to make an SRFI 126 implementation out of it should be trivial, but I didn't do it (yet)
2016-04-30T12:44:31Z dpk: huh, so it does
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2016-04-30T12:45:25Z dpk: that's pretty cool
2016-04-30T12:45:26Z ecraven: not the nicest syntax I can think of, but way better than what we have now :-/
2016-04-30T12:50:46Z groovy2shoes: give me alists or give me death
2016-04-30T13:03:33Z taylan: I would honestly reserve #{} for something more akin to Clojure's maps anyhow
2016-04-30T13:03:53Z ecraven: how are they different from hashmaps?
2016-04-30T13:03:56Z taylan: hash tables are inherently imperative in some ways
2016-04-30T13:04:10Z taylan: it's an API thing rather than an implementation strategy thing of course...
2016-04-30T13:05:55Z pjb: taylan: not necessarily: (puthash h k v) --> new-h
2016-04-30T13:07:46Z taylan: SRFI 126 defines a rather conventional hash table API as much as hash tables in the Scheme world go
2016-04-30T13:08:33Z taylan: such that it would hopefully be adopted as a standard hash table API.  nothing crazy in it (though a few strange procedure names, sadly...)
2016-04-30T13:08:54Z taylan: something like a pure-functional map API would be a new thing entirely
2016-04-30T13:09:25Z pjb: Purely functional data structure are not adapted in a mutating world, and on mutatble computer system (Turing Machines, Von Neuman Machines, etc).
2016-04-30T13:11:45Z ecraven: pjb?
2016-04-30T13:12:25Z pjb: ecraven: functional data structures (non-mutable) are very fine and good in maths, but not in the real world.
2016-04-30T13:12:38Z ecraven: aren't there some very successful immutable libraries?
2016-04-30T13:13:07Z wasamasa: let's pretend haskell, clojure and racket are not a thing
2016-04-30T13:13:33Z pjb: I'm just saying they're not good for the real world.
2016-04-30T13:13:36Z wasamasa: let's pretend paying attention to inane trolling
2016-04-30T13:14:14Z ecraven: is there an index of which srfi defines which names?
2016-04-30T13:14:49Z ecraven: as an easy way to check for conflicts when writing a new srfi
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2016-04-30T14:33:49Z mejja: almost 3 days and not a single benchmark result published..
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2016-04-30T14:34:18Z ecraven: mejja: someone needs to do some on chez :D
2016-04-30T14:34:29Z mejja: http://www.larcenists.org/benchmarksGenuineR6Linux.html
2016-04-30T14:35:33Z ecraven: that is missing chez (not-petite)
2016-04-30T14:35:38Z mejja: ecraven: do it for us.. https://github.com/larcenists/larceny/tree/master/test/Benchmarking
2016-04-30T14:35:58Z mejja: Yes you have to replace petit with chez of course..
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2016-04-30T14:36:46Z ecraven: and you have to run all other benchmarks on the same machine too :)
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2016-04-30T15:31:55Z lalex: oh boy, equal? in R7RS was quite beefed up. no idea how to implement that efficiently.
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2016-04-30T16:00:55Z ecraven: hm.. actually a few of the examples for equal? in R7RS are strange... (equal? '(a (b) c) '(a (b) c)) being literals, those could even be eq?, right? the thing I *wouldn't* expect necessarily is (equal? (list 'a (list 'b) 'c) (list 'a (list 'b) 'c)), wouldn't that have been a better example?
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2016-04-30T16:01:07Z ecraven: lalex: because of comparing circular structures?
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2016-04-30T16:09:47Z lalex: ecraven: well, circular is not a problem if you use some hash over the adress it makes it easily O(1). but the problem is: (equal? '#1=(a b . #1#) '#2=(a b a b . #2#)) ;=> #t
2016-04-30T16:10:24Z ecraven: that's what I mean, different but equally circular lists
2016-04-30T16:10:34Z lalex: yes, right
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2016-04-30T16:12:20Z lalex: I won't say that it isn't useful
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2016-04-30T16:12:56Z lalex: but I guess that only has academic value, in reality the most useful aspect would be that equal? terminates at all - even for circular lists
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2016-04-30T16:18:38Z ggole: lalex: is that really additionally difficult over just handling cycles?
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2016-04-30T16:20:01Z ggole: If you can detect that one list is cycling, you can continue with the other one until it finishes or you reach a cycle
2016-04-30T16:20:12Z ecraven: ggole: in r5rs, equal? wasn't guaranteed to deal correctly with circular lists
2016-04-30T16:20:33Z lalex: ggole: yes, that would be my first approach as well
2016-04-30T16:21:18Z ggole: It really seems like the sort of thing you would leave to a library, since equality of cycles could have several different semantics
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2016-04-30T16:21:50Z ecraven: well, if you include the #1=.. syntax, all the standard procedures should be able to deal with those lists too, right?
2016-04-30T16:22:45Z lalex: the #1=... syntax is only helpfulif you really use (read ...). because putting cyclic stuff into your compiler is still not specified I think
2016-04-30T16:23:20Z lalex: ecraven: but I agree
2016-04-30T16:23:42Z lalex: R7RS made that pretty clear, that cyclic data is something Scheme is going to handle gracefully now
2016-04-30T16:23:55Z ggole: You mean, map should detect cycles and produce a transformed cycle?
2016-04-30T16:24:18Z ecraven: ggole: good point :) that would be nice
2016-04-30T16:24:20Z lalex: lol, that would be cool
2016-04-30T16:24:41Z lalex: but is that expected semantics for map?
2016-04-30T16:24:46Z ecraven: it's actually strange that *some* procedures are specified to deal correctly with circular lists, while others aren't
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2016-04-30T16:25:21Z lalex: write vs. write-simple vs. write-shared - here R7RS made some clear distinctions for providing "optimized" versions
2016-04-30T16:26:21Z ggole: Not sure what the perf hit would be like
2016-04-30T16:27:34Z lalex: well, for tracking cyclic structures you would have to setup some hashtable and put all adresses in. which is not a problem for "large" structures. but for small ones , which are often written, it would likely be a performance hit that matters.
2016-04-30T16:27:35Z mejja: feature bloat
2016-04-30T16:28:09Z lalex: I agres, but R7RS small is still better than R6RS I think
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2016-04-30T16:28:45Z lalex: I like that it is case sensitive by default now. but I can see, that this is just because I'm not used to case-insensitive code from other languags
2016-04-30T16:29:08Z ecraven: ah, I keep forgetting that (probably on purpose)
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2016-04-30T16:29:18Z ecraven: not that I ever use it, except for macro code sometimes
2016-04-30T16:29:50Z lalex: I remember the discussion from R6RS from the mailing list which I lurked back then
2016-04-30T16:30:00Z ggole: There are other ways to detect cyclic lists, although I'm not sure they work for trees as well
2016-04-30T16:30:31Z lalex: you mean marking bits in the pairs themself?
2016-04-30T16:30:52Z ggole: The basic idea is to use racing pointers to find a meet point (if there is any), given which you have enough information for various operations.
2016-04-30T16:31:15Z ggole: Only eq is needed.
2016-04-30T16:31:29Z lalex: whats a racing pointer?
2016-04-30T16:31:45Z ggole: The racing pointers algorithm
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2016-04-30T16:32:08Z ggole: Where you have a slow pointer which goes through the list cdr at a time, and a fast one which goes through the list cddr at a time
2016-04-30T16:32:24Z ggole: If they are eq, you have a cycle (and the point at which they are eq is the meet point)
2016-04-30T16:32:49Z lalex: oh, I get it. clever
2016-04-30T16:33:43Z ecraven: will that find the first meet point, or any?
2016-04-30T16:34:04Z ggole: There's only one
2016-04-30T16:34:20Z ggole: (This is for a single list.)
2016-04-30T16:35:21Z lalex: I don't know, but shouldn't (write ) also handle this: (#0=(1 2 3) #0#)
2016-04-30T16:36:05Z lalex: the thing is that stuff that eas (eqv? ...) before (write ...) should also be after (read ...)
2016-04-30T16:36:08Z ggole: That's getting into the tree problems that I mentioned
2016-04-30T16:36:17Z lalex: yes
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2016-04-30T16:36:29Z ggole: I don't know if the meet trick is sufficient for those.
2016-04-30T16:36:37Z ggole: It should be ok for, say, map
2016-04-30T16:39:08Z taylan: ecraven: https://github.com/taylanub/scheme-srfis might help in automatically detecting exports of SRFIs, but of course only those that are in the repo...
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2016-04-30T16:39:16Z lalex: R9RS will then need compilers to handle cyclic code :)
2016-04-30T16:39:52Z taylan: ecraven: (re. your earlier question about finding a list of definitions in each SRFI)
2016-04-30T16:40:07Z ecraven: taylan: thanks
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2016-04-30T16:40:44Z ecraven: just because there are now enough SRFIs that I find it hard to remember every binding in every one of them
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2016-04-30T16:45:11Z lalex: will SRFIs get a real name after final and approved?
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2016-04-30T16:45:36Z ecraven: lalex: what do you mean? what kind of "real name"?
2016-04-30T16:45:56Z lalex: something human readable, that has semantics in the name like (srfi list-utilities)
2016-04-30T16:46:15Z ecraven: lalex: the ones that will be part of r7rs-large probably will have a better name
2016-04-30T16:46:19Z ecraven: the others, I don't think so
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2016-04-30T16:47:20Z lalex: hmm, as long as we don't get "listpad" :)
2016-04-30T16:47:32Z lalex: err
2016-04-30T16:47:34Z lalex: *leftpad
2016-04-30T16:47:42Z lalex: yeez, JS is driving me nuts
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2016-04-30T17:01:25Z pjb: lalex: stop writing JS, write scheme!
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2016-04-30T17:06:57Z lalex: ha, I would love to. but my company wants to break into web development, and my colleagues having a hard time to write classes and abstractions in C++ after using it for 10 years...
2016-04-30T17:07:09Z lalex: no chance to introduce scheme there :)
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2016-04-30T18:49:21Z xieyuheng: I find some people do not use irc at weekends.
2016-04-30T18:49:55Z wasamasa: I can't blame them
2016-04-30T18:50:03Z wasamasa: there's more fun to be found outside
2016-04-30T18:50:11Z pjb: Quickly said.
2016-04-30T18:50:50Z xieyuheng: what do rnrs' say about (the reader) viewing '3a as symbol?
2016-04-30T18:51:04Z ecraven: it is in MIT/GNU Scheme
2016-04-30T18:51:18Z ecraven: also in chicken
2016-04-30T18:51:23Z xieyuheng: I found that guile & racket can do this, while larceny can not.
2016-04-30T18:51:24Z ecraven: maybe in guile? what is #{3a}#?
2016-04-30T18:51:37Z ecraven: I'd guess it depends on the reader
2016-04-30T18:51:56Z ecraven: chibi for example doesn't accept it either
2016-04-30T18:52:00Z xieyuheng: so, rnrs' say nothing about them ?
2016-04-30T18:53:36Z ecraven: well: section 2.1 of r7rs says: `An identifier is any sequence of letters, digits and "extended identifier characters" provided that it does not have a prefix which is a valid number.'
2016-04-30T18:53:45Z ecraven: so that would seem to rule out 3a as a legal identifier
2016-04-30T18:54:13Z xieyuheng: yes
2016-04-30T18:54:14Z ecraven: however, |3a| should always work
2016-04-30T18:54:28Z xieyuheng: I am using them as var name
2016-04-30T18:54:42Z xieyuheng: I will change my naming
2016-04-30T18:55:28Z ecraven: MIT/GNU Scheme uses -1+ as (lambda (x) (- x 1))
2016-04-30T18:55:40Z ecraven: imho a better name than 1- (of CL infamy)
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2016-04-30T19:06:21Z bsamorim: guys, how do I report errors on scheme48?
2016-04-30T19:06:37Z bsamorim: there is no built-in "error" procedure
2016-04-30T19:17:39Z xieyuheng: how come no one is in #larceny ? >_<
2016-04-30T19:19:47Z ecraven: maybe not many people are using it?
2016-04-30T19:24:46Z xieyuheng: guile larceny racket all bad people
2016-04-30T19:26:19Z wasamasa: I'm pretty sure the guile and racket channels have people in them
2016-04-30T19:26:30Z wasamasa: /query alis list <term> is your friend :>
2016-04-30T19:27:10Z xieyuheng: I mean the meaning of these three english words
2016-04-30T19:27:31Z wasamasa: oh
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2016-04-30T19:40:51Z groovy2shoes: bsamorim, http://hastebin.com/bizikepoli.scm
2016-04-30T19:41:05Z bsamorim: groovy2shoes: thx!
2016-04-30T19:41:06Z groovy2shoes: `error` is in the `big-util` package
2016-04-30T19:41:20Z groovy2shoes: which goes nicely with the `big-scheme` package
2016-04-30T19:41:49Z groovy2shoes: the other three packages I opened there (`module-system`, `built-in-structures`, and `more-structures`) are the defaults, I think
2016-04-30T19:42:35Z groovy2shoes: I love Scheme48, but damn its module system can be a real pain in the ass sometimes
2016-04-30T19:43:06Z groovy2shoes: it's really featureful and useful, but it feels like there aren't any simple ways to do simple things, it's *always* complicated, even when you're not making use of the neat features
2016-04-30T19:44:27Z groovy2shoes: unless I've been missing something all these years...
2016-04-30T19:45:12Z bsamorim: groovy2shoes: hmm, what other schemers would you recommend?
2016-04-30T19:45:46Z bsamorim: groovy2shoes: i don't use drracket cause of my ocd-attack upon having to write the "#lang" header
2016-04-30T19:46:30Z groovy2shoes: bsamorim, looks like you can just do `,open big-util`
2016-04-30T19:46:51Z bsamorim: ok, i'll check it out...thanks! :)
2016-04-30T19:47:05Z groovy2shoes: that'll add `error` (and the other stuff in big-util) to the default environment
2016-04-30T19:53:37Z groovy2shoes: bsamorim, you don't need to write #lang in Scheme files for racket, as long as you use the plt-r5rs or plt-r6rs executables to run the program
2016-04-30T19:54:14Z bsamorim: groovy2shoes: you've just revolutionized my life
2016-04-30T19:55:36Z groovy2shoes: but there are lots of good Scheme implementations... Gambit-C, CHICKEN, chibi-scheme, Gauche, Guile, MIT/GNU Scheme, Larceny, Vicare, Picarin, RScheme, ELK, Bigloo, Kawa, ...
2016-04-30T19:57:16Z groovy2shoes: I tend to bounce around, but I gravitate towards Gauche for "shell" scripting tasks, Gambit-C when I need to distribute binaries, and Racket when I'm doing server-side stuff, but there really are a lot of solid implementations...  they've each got their advantages and disadvantages, so it all comes down to what you want out of it, really
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2016-04-30T20:27:41Z lalex: hmmm, are there a lot languages that have so many (decent quality) implementations? from the top of my head only scheme and C/C++ come to mind.
2016-04-30T20:29:29Z wasamasa: JS :P
2016-04-30T20:29:39Z wasamasa: and smalltalk obviously
2016-04-30T20:29:58Z fds: Scheme is famous for being (relatively) easy to implement, so a lot of people have given it a go.  Even though most of those implementations are rubbish, enough aren't that there are a lot of decent ones around.
2016-04-30T20:30:01Z wasamasa: also, loads of JVMs around, for all kinds of usages
2016-04-30T20:30:18Z wasamasa still can't believe there are variants for running on feature phones...
2016-04-30T20:30:29Z lalex: right, JS !
2016-04-30T20:30:45Z wasamasa: what about CL?
2016-04-30T20:30:56Z wasamasa: there's enough implementations around to confuse newbies what to pick
2016-04-30T20:30:59Z lalex: isn't there just SBCL?
2016-04-30T20:31:13Z wasamasa: most certainly not
2016-04-30T20:31:18Z lalex: well, like fds said, there are tons of scheme/lisp implementations out there
2016-04-30T20:31:27Z lalex: but a decent scheme implementation is far from easy
2016-04-30T20:31:45Z lalex: are there so many smalltalk implementations that are practical?
2016-04-30T20:31:57Z lalex: only gnu smalltalk and maybe squeak come to my mind
2016-04-30T20:32:09Z wasamasa: lol
2016-04-30T20:32:39Z fds: There are also several SML implementations around, although most seemed to have stopped development.
2016-04-30T20:33:25Z fds: But yeah, any decent PL implementation is tough and my point was more that Scheme has the reputation for being easy.
2016-04-30T20:33:47Z lalex: hehe, because of the "small" core
2016-04-30T20:33:47Z fds: It doesn't actually matter how easy or hard something is if people are too scared to even try it. :-)
2016-04-30T20:34:12Z lalex: yea, only cons/car/cdr/if/lambda and you are done
2016-04-30T20:34:39Z lalex: as long as you got TCO, call/cc and a good GC
2016-04-30T20:35:03Z lalex: (and you still don't have decent performance at that point)
2016-04-30T20:35:13Z wasamasa: there's at least two for the browser (morphic/lively kernel, amber), pharo (much more attractive than squeak), one used for implementing ruby on top of it (gemstone?) and more than enough commercial ones
2016-04-30T20:35:48Z lalex: wasamasa: fascinating, didn't know there were so modern implementatioins around
2016-04-30T20:36:21Z lalex: "Amber is written in itself, including the compiler, and compiles into efficient JavaScript, mapping one-to-one with the JS equivalent."
2016-04-30T20:36:36Z lalex: obvious application of JS as target language
2016-04-30T20:37:34Z lalex: pharao looks more professional than squeak - nice
2016-04-30T20:37:56Z wasamasa: if I hadn't emacs already, I'd probably give pharo a try :P
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2016-04-30T20:38:06Z lalex: lol
2016-04-30T20:38:54Z ecraven: but aren't the various CLs much closer than any two Schemes?
2016-04-30T20:39:24Z lalex: I wonder
2016-04-30T20:39:36Z wasamasa: dunno, I've seen a family graph on twitter for them recently
2016-04-30T20:39:40Z fds: The CL standard places more constraints than the Scheme standard(s).
2016-04-30T20:39:41Z ecraven: well, in a way it's cheating, as the core language (CL) is so much larger
2016-04-30T20:39:45Z ecraven: so less remains to be different
2016-04-30T20:39:50Z lalex: there is enough fragmentation over the whole R5RS, R6RS and R7RS family
2016-04-30T20:41:15Z wasamasa: https://twitter.com/dk_jackdaniel/status/698157022483771392
2016-04-30T20:42:01Z ecraven: by the way, geiser in melpa as of right now contains rudimentary support for chibi, chez and mit/gnu scheme
2016-04-30T20:42:37Z lalex: wasamasa: interesting how many are "ANSI" compliant :9
2016-04-30T20:42:46Z wasamasa: lalex: yeah, I'd have expected less
2016-04-30T20:43:10Z lalex: Delphi???
2016-04-30T20:43:31Z wasamasa: this means that if you stick to the standard (which is a bit less hard than with scheme), you could move around your code on to other implementations with no effort
2016-04-30T20:43:45Z wasamasa: in practice, you'll of course have their ifdef equivalents scattered around the code
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2016-04-30T20:44:10Z ecraven: but at least CL has halfway decent support for ifdefs :)
2016-04-30T20:44:10Z |2701: yeah I'm not sure if I agree with that graph as it is
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2016-04-30T20:45:01Z wasamasa: I like how emacs-cl is there :D
2016-04-30T20:45:16Z lalex: :)
2016-04-30T20:45:30Z ecraven: and OpenGenera a dead end ;-(
2016-04-30T20:45:53Z ecraven: I've seen a video somewhere of colour graphics support in OG... very cool
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2016-04-30T21:03:21Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, do you know where I might find a copy of OpenGenera?  and possibly a copy of Tru64 UNIX and an Alpha emulator? ...
2016-04-30T21:03:32Z groovy2shoes: been wanting to play around with it, but can't find any decent Alpha emulators
2016-04-30T21:03:43Z groovy2shoes: SimH is friggin' great for VAX and PDP-n
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2016-04-30T21:17:00Z mejja: groovy2shoes: https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/3769989/Symbolics_Open_Genera_2.0_for_Alpha_-_complete_package_with_Lisp
2016-04-30T21:17:01Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/1TIPa10REj
2016-04-30T21:17:54Z wasamasa: the first comment
2016-04-30T21:19:06Z mejja: groovy2shoes: You need an older version of X11 to run it: https://github.com/ynniv/opengenera
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2016-04-30T21:53:27Z groovy2shoes: mejja, awesome!  thank you :)
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2016-04-30T22:02:07Z jcowan: hye hey
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2016-04-30T22:08:16Z xieyuheng: jcowan: hi
2016-04-30T22:08:18Z xieyuheng: the r7rs module system, as extended subset of the r6rs module system, what are the differences ?
2016-04-30T22:08:39Z ijp: extended subset is a weird phrase
2016-04-30T22:09:01Z jcowan: Well, there are more directives, and you aren't allowed to put plain Scheme code directly in libraries.
2016-04-30T22:09:36Z jcowan: On the other hand, not all the features of R6RS are provided: in particular, the whole version number nightmare is left out.
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2016-04-30T22:10:15Z jcowan: R6RS just has import and export, and everything else is plain Scheme
2016-04-30T22:10:33Z jcowan: in R7RS there is import, export, include, include-ci, include-library-declarations, cond-expand ....
2016-04-30T22:10:53Z ijp: I suppose in mathematics you'd say they "incomparable" wrt inclusion of features, but it doesn't gel with common usage
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2016-04-30T22:11:31Z jcowan: They are incomparable, but at the same time they can be compared
2016-04-30T22:11:46Z jcowan: we shrank R6RS to a core subset and added some additional features
2016-04-30T22:12:10Z ijp: shrank, modified, then extended
2016-04-30T22:12:15Z xieyuheng: ijp: that is a joking term used by jcowan years ago
2016-04-30T22:12:43Z ijp: I don't suppose r7rs made a stand on multiple library forms per file
2016-04-30T22:13:05Z jcowan: R7RS has nothing to say about library-forms and files
2016-04-30T22:13:13Z jcowan: except that implementations should document how they do it.
2016-04-30T22:14:03Z xieyuheng: jcowan: but I see the following in r6rs-lib.pdf ::
2016-04-30T22:14:04Z xieyuheng: ' (include "filename") expands into a begin expression containing the forms found in the file named by "filename". '
2016-04-30T22:14:05Z ijp: I'm not surprised
2016-04-30T22:14:24Z ijp: xieyuheng: include there is a defined example macro, and not even standardised
2016-04-30T22:15:30Z jcowan: whereas include in R7RS is standardized as a library directive (which is the recommended mode of use AFAI am concerned) and syntax, but allows an implementation to intervene between the filename string and whatever gets included.
2016-04-30T22:16:37Z xieyuheng: I see
2016-04-30T22:17:21Z xieyuheng: I should have readed it more carefully, sorry guys.
2016-04-30T22:17:53Z ijp: don't worry about it
2016-04-30T22:18:13Z jcowan: np, language lawyering is a specialized skill
2016-04-30T22:21:13Z ijp: if only it paid as well as real lawyering
2016-04-30T22:21:22Z ijp: (public defenders etc. excepted)
2016-04-30T22:23:16Z xieyuheng: language lawyering ?
2016-04-30T22:23:33Z xieyuheng: I see
2016-04-30T22:24:36Z xieyuheng: do you know some good readings about scheme ecosystem ?
2016-04-30T22:25:29Z xieyuheng: blog posts, like they do for other languages ?
2016-04-30T22:25:45Z jcowan: Lots, but many are Scheme-implementation-specific
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2016-04-30T22:27:18Z jcowan: There is a Planet Scheme blog aggregator, but only about three active blogs in it
2016-04-30T22:27:49Z jcowan: Lots of articles about Scheme at library.readscheme.org
2016-04-30T22:28:30Z jcowan: Because "scheme" is a common word, especially in British English, it pays to google for "Scheme language" and add whatever other search terms you like
2016-04-30T22:29:15Z jcowan: and of course schemers.org and the Usenet newsgroups comp.lang.scheme (which you can read at Google Groups)
2016-04-30T22:29:53Z ijp: what do usians do if they aren't scheming? plotting? conspiring? strategising?
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2016-04-30T22:30:18Z jcowan: Those, yes, but in BrE "scheme" (noun) is more equivalent to "plan"
2016-04-30T22:30:41Z jcowan: as opposed to "plot" or "conspiracy", though it can mean those things too
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2016-04-30T23:25:55Z xieyuheng: jcowan: what's wrong with version in the module system ? isn't that the thing one needs to design a package manager for a language ?
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2016-04-30T23:26:56Z jcowan: It's too complex and maddeningly just off the sweet spot
2016-04-30T23:28:50Z jcowan: See http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/Snow for a proposal for an R7RS-wide repository design
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2016-04-30T23:49:26Z ijp: xieyuheng: it's not a bad idea, but arguably version is metadata and so should be outside the library form proper
2016-04-30T23:49:51Z ijp: more importantly, almost no-one who wrote r6rs code used it
2016-04-30T23:50:47Z ijp: only two weinholt and larceny spring to mind
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2016-04-30T23:52:50Z xieyuheng: ijp: more meta data in module, will make it easier to design a good package manager
2016-04-30T23:54:17Z ijp: removing it from the library form just moves it somewhere else
2016-04-30T23:55:01Z rszeno: what data? that's the problem, imo
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