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2014-11-06T07:50:24Z ggVGc: is there a bare bones scheme implementation along the lines of lua? I.e without any platform specific things and in ANSI C? I looked at chibi, which might be what I want?
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2014-11-06T08:27:20Z taylanub: ggVGc: I also thought of Chibi upon reading your question.
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2014-11-06T08:33:31Z taylanub: ggVGc: I've been using Chibi to test some R7RS libraries, and it's definitely a neat little implementation, but seems to be suffering from a lack of users, i.e. testers.  be careful about hitting little bugs here and there; file issues on the googlecode page of Chibi and they'll get taken care of
2014-11-06T08:34:37Z ggVGc: taylanub: yeah, that's the feeling I got too. Actually what I think I am going to do is use this, https://github.com/meric/l2l/blob/master/l2l, since my application already has embedded lua and I know the VM is solid and builds the way I want it to.
2014-11-06T08:39:56Z taylanub: ggVGc: is that sexpr syntax for Lua, or what exactly is it?
2014-11-06T08:40:52Z ggVGc: taylanub: it's a small compiler for lisp to lua as far as I can tell
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2014-11-06T08:41:07Z taylanub: well which Lisp...  maybe an ad-hoc one.
2014-11-06T08:41:09Z ggVGc: taylanub: basically sexpr and macros
2014-11-06T08:41:28Z ggVGc: taylanub: I only just now found it
2014-11-06T08:41:31Z ggVGc: looking at it closer atm
2014-11-06T08:41:36Z taylanub: oh, didn't notice l2l was the whole project; there's a README on the homepage of it
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2014-11-06T08:42:34Z ggVGc: taylanub: I mean it will be the dialect of "lisp running in lua environment"
2014-11-06T08:42:37Z ggVGc: which is fine to me
2014-11-06T08:43:12Z taylanub: so yeah, it ain't no Scheme, meaning it probably has no hygienic macros, multiple-values, tail-call elimination, etc., but any Lisp is better than no Lisp ;P
2014-11-06T08:45:25Z ggVGc: taylanub: yeah, but the lua VM offers some good things to, so for my use I think lisp syntax with the lua VM is not actually bad
2014-11-06T08:45:50Z ggVGc: lua has nice coroutines, and tail call recursion(afaik)
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2014-11-06T08:46:50Z ggVGc: errr, tail call elimination I meant
2014-11-06T08:48:07Z ggVGc: taylanub: I actually have barely written any scheme/lisp at all, and doing this is a way for me to get into it. But yeah, hygienic macros would require an actual lisp runtime rather than running in the lua VM I guess, if I understand hygienic macros correctly
2014-11-06T08:48:51Z ggVGc: btw, lua also has multiple return values, so I think actually the VM is pretty suitable for scheme
2014-11-06T08:48:56Z ggVGc: I will give this a try and see how it goes
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2014-11-06T09:12:22Z taylanub: ooh, sounds like Lua is more Schemey than I thought, with TCO and MV
2014-11-06T09:13:17Z taylanub: ggVGc: hygienic macros are a purely compile-time thing, but need to interact with the module system a little I think; dunno how easy they'd be to implement for Lua
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2014-11-06T09:19:46Z ggVGc: taylanub: yeah, I read some more about it, and now I understand them I think. Could hygienic macros be implemented as a preprocessor?
2014-11-06T09:20:12Z ggVGc: or rather, is there a lisp-only implementation of them readily available?
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2014-11-06T09:27:50Z taylanub: ggVGc: pure preprocessor is difficult because the output of hygienic macro expansion needs to have "raw" references directly into the bindings of other modules.  when module A has a top-level variable X and a macro Y whose body references X, then when module B imports macro Y from A and uses it, the expansion must produce some unambiguous reference to "variable X from module A"
2014-11-06T09:28:57Z taylanub: (in this case the variable X is called an "implicit export" from the module A, unless it's also exported explicitly that is)
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2014-11-06T11:51:32Z MadProcessor: How can i redefine/extend existing syntax rules, like i.e. (define (...) ...) ?
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2014-11-06T12:11:48Z taylanub: MadProcessor: in R7RS, you could (import (rename (scheme base) (define real-define))), and then (define-syntax define (syntax-rules ((...) (real-define ...)))) and such
2014-11-06T12:20:56Z Riastradh: ecraven: In case you're curious, I've just committed a (duh-obvious-why-didn't-I-think-of-it-then) fix for <http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/mit-scheme-devel/2012-04/msg00000.html>.
2014-11-06T12:26:18Z ecraven: Riastradh: thanks!
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2014-11-06T12:27:33Z Riastradh: Until that goes out in a release, you can work around it by replacing (create-thread #f t) by (let ((continuation (create-thread-continuation))) (create-thread continuation (lambda () (with-create-thread-continuation continuation t].
2014-11-06T12:28:14Z ecraven: Riastradh: I need to look up what I needed it for, it might have been for the web thing, to run a swank repl in the image so that I can connect to it for updating/debugging
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2014-11-15T20:14:55Z names: ggherdov fizzie TrueShif1Blue sethalves xyh mmc cojy dmiles Blkt_ greghendershott hiroakip kongtomorrow kazimir42 vanila mdibound Vutral daviid Isp-sec davexunit bjz zlrth Khisanth karswell hypermagic BitPuffin wilfredh funrep tadni rtra joneshf-laptop BossKonaSegwaY1 Riastradh juanfra macdice githogori_ GGMethos anannie carc evhan joast _5kg ohama Soft ffs certainty antoszka teiresias Sgeo kbtr Kabaka Riviera asumu turbofail girrig tmh_ byte48 klltkr
2014-11-15T20:14:55Z names: fikusz cmatei joneshf swilr frkout copec akkad fgudin serhart mrowe_away edw mario-goulart cibs twem2 gf3 acarrico FracV Kruppe Tbone139 aksatac superjudge dytrivedi__ gluegadget aap choas ft dsp synaptech ByronJohnson cjh` abbe ski weinholt fadein C-Keen Intensity Kryo ozzloy Neet nisstyre eMBee vukcrni ecraven CoverSlide diginet amoe niklasl finnrobi Razz necronian pygospa amgarching eagleflo mikeyhc z0d offby1 dan64 Saeren_ aking micro^ cross poucet
2014-11-15T20:14:55Z names: sigjuice tsuyoshi SirDayBat zbigniew tstc rotty_ dca yosafbridge klutometis
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2014-11-15T20:38:19Z taylanub: *sigh*  I wish syntax-rules had a way to only match an identifier, syntax-parse style.
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2014-11-15T21:31:21Z mdibound: is the procedure considered a data type?
2014-11-15T21:31:50Z vanila: yes
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2014-11-15T21:32:16Z BW^-: guys, I have basically a procedure, that performs a tree-like, sometimes circular, execution flow -
2014-11-15T21:32:21Z BW^-: i.e. just a typical Scheme procedore
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2014-11-15T21:32:42Z BW^-: however, it has stops and starts at which it needs to be serialized to persistent media, and then restored from there
2014-11-15T21:32:52Z BW^-: *and* I don't want to use the programming language's closure/continuation serialization routines,
2014-11-15T21:33:18Z BW^-: because all of that leads to code versioning problems, etc.
2014-11-15T21:33:29Z BW^-: therefore, right now I have implemented this procedure in an *inverse form, technically as an event handler*
2014-11-15T21:33:34Z BW^-: and, that is becoming a PITA
2014-11-15T21:33:41Z BW^-: because the code is too complex, it's like reading backwards
2014-11-15T21:33:51Z vanila: mmaybe you can use shift/reset to implement the inverted form in direct style?
2014-11-15T21:34:02Z BW^-: so now I'm thinkign about if I could perform the original goal of having this as a procedure,
2014-11-15T21:34:18Z BW^-: that doesn't really serialize at the level of Scheme code but rather its serialization is a custom-made one,
2014-11-15T21:34:19Z BW^-: that
2014-11-15T21:34:24Z BW^-: using
2014-11-15T21:34:29Z BW^-: (1) a macro for code transformation
2014-11-15T21:34:30Z BW^-: and
2014-11-15T21:34:33Z BW^-: (2) call/cc
2014-11-15T21:34:47Z vanila: probably shift/reset better than call/cc
2014-11-15T21:34:47Z BW^-: that somehow using at least (1) but if of any benefit also (2) ,
2014-11-15T21:34:49Z BW^-: I could reach this goal?
2014-11-15T21:34:59Z BW^-: vanila: I don't have shift/reset in Gambit, don't worry!
2014-11-15T21:35:00Z BW^-: call/cc is fine
2014-11-15T21:35:13Z BW^-: vanila: now, how could I implement such a thing?
2014-11-15T21:35:15Z BW^-: so basically
2014-11-15T21:35:20Z BW^-: the persistent structure is a set of slots
2014-11-15T21:35:21Z BW^-: like
2014-11-15T21:35:31Z BW^-: |is-intialized?| , set to #f at beginning, but at a particular point it's set to #t
2014-11-15T21:35:33Z BW^-: there's some error slots
2014-11-15T21:35:54Z BW^-: there's some steps for the processing, like |step1-begun?| |step1-done?| etc
2014-11-15T21:35:54Z BW^-: and
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2014-11-15T21:35:57Z BW^-: well
2014-11-15T21:36:03Z BW^-: so basically
2014-11-15T21:36:41Z BW^-: this code when loaded from the perisstent form, should enter the code again with some argument from the restore code
2014-11-15T21:36:41Z BW^-: hmmm
2014-11-15T21:36:43Z BW^-: so it's like
2014-11-15T21:36:50Z BW^-: (launch-the-procedure-thanks!)
2014-11-15T21:36:53Z BW^-: and that returns something like
2014-11-15T21:36:56Z BW^-: => return-result
2014-11-15T21:37:08Z BW^-: or... => execution-state  + message-to-outside-world
2014-11-15T21:37:09Z BW^-: something like this
2014-11-15T21:37:16Z BW^-: so then, I need to store |execution-state| to the persistent media,
2014-11-15T21:37:28Z BW^-: and |message-to-the-outside-world| is just handled directly
2014-11-15T21:37:30Z BW^-: then at some point later,
2014-11-15T21:37:40Z BW^-: I'll have a message for the procedure, |message-for-the-procedure|
2014-11-15T21:37:48Z BW^-: and I load |execution-state| from the persistent media
2014-11-15T21:38:04Z BW^-: vanila,*:   so I do something like (proceed-with-execution execution-state message-for-the-procedure)
2014-11-15T21:38:17Z BW^-: and that in turn will execute,a nda t some point go   =>  execution-state + message-to-outside-world
2014-11-15T21:38:31Z BW^-: hmmm
2014-11-15T21:39:06Z BW^-: vanila: I may maaaybe have a limited problem with that the |message-for-the-procedure| would not be perfectly defined, in relation to the execution point at which the "procedure" is
2014-11-15T21:39:10Z BW^-: hmmm
2014-11-15T21:39:18Z BW^-: but other than this
2014-11-15T21:39:18Z BW^-: hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
2014-11-15T21:39:38Z BW^-: vanila: maaaybe, I could actually put a *static NAME*   on each of the suspent locations in the procedure!
2014-11-15T21:39:52Z mdibound: ><
2014-11-15T21:39:52Z BW^-: vanila: and store away that name into execution-state too
2014-11-15T21:40:13Z BW^-: i need to figure out if that would make sense, but.. it might do!
2014-11-15T21:40:18Z BW^-: hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
2014-11-15T21:40:22Z Riastradh: ecraven: #!aux is an internal kludge used to implement LETREC / internal definitions.  (lambda (x) (define y E) ...) is internally stored for the interpreter as (lambda (x #!aux y) (set! y E) ...).
2014-11-15T21:40:42Z BW^-: vanila,Riastradh,*: what would then be a relevant code transformation?
2014-11-15T21:45:05Z BW^-: ouh.. hm.. there should be some word for this kind of process
2014-11-15T21:46:14Z BW^-: might be impossible to make pure scheme code of it without a code rewrite at the point of every conditional
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2014-11-15T21:52:35Z BW^-: vanila: reflection?
2014-11-15T21:52:42Z BW^-: mdibound: did you want to say anything?
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2014-11-15T21:53:57Z vanila: I was wondering if you could use a monad for this but i think that would involve serializing a procedure
2014-11-15T21:54:11Z vanila: seems like a hell of a lot of trouble just to reimplement some feature that already exists
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2014-11-15T21:55:40Z BW^-: vanila: um, you mean that I undertake a lot of trouble, in order to get around/away from the need of using the language's built in closure serialization mechanism?
2014-11-15T21:55:51Z vanila: yes
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2014-11-15T21:56:01Z BW^-: closure/continuation
2014-11-15T21:56:16Z BW^-: vanila: well, technically, I agree with you.
2014-11-15T21:56:18Z Riastradh: BW^-: Step 1: write down the file format for the state you need to preserve.
2014-11-15T21:56:37Z BW^-: vanila: however, I can under no circumstance allow these "closures" to need to reset because I altered the code so they can't be deserialized anymore etc.
2014-11-15T21:57:09Z BW^-: vanila: so this is why it's 100% justified, even though I admit it takes more time
2014-11-15T21:57:28Z BW^-: vanila: I hope I can write some simple code preprocessor myself to make this work out
2014-11-15T21:58:16Z ecraven: Riastradh: Thanks! I guess it's ok to use #!key in my own macro? As it is predefined and seems not to be used every?
2014-11-15T21:58:20Z ecraven: s/every/ever/
2014-11-15T21:58:42Z BW^-: Riastradh: I'm at >90% of that, yes
2014-11-15T21:59:01Z BW^-: Riastradh: what do you suggest as step 2?
2014-11-15T21:59:09Z Riastradh: ecraven: Gee, I didn't notice #!key existed.
2014-11-15T21:59:15Z BW^-: Riastradh,vanila: are you aware of any other example of code that does anything like this :))
2014-11-15T21:59:15Z vanila: can you structure the code so that it forms a block of mutually recursive top level procedures P1, P2, .. etc.
2014-11-15T21:59:16Z BW^-: anyhow
2014-11-15T21:59:17Z Riastradh: ecraven: Sure, go for it, I guess.
2014-11-15T21:59:22Z BW^-: I should figure out
2014-11-15T21:59:25Z ecraven: Riastradh: hehe, someone must have planned to use it for something some day
2014-11-15T21:59:25Z vanila: such that none of them take functions as parameters
2014-11-15T21:59:34Z BW^-: Riastradh,vanila: it's just that in this code transformer I write, I'll need to make a Big Explosion at every point that's an exit/entry point for the serialization
2014-11-15T21:59:37Z vanila: then you can pause at the call to any of the P ones
2014-11-15T21:59:38Z Riastradh: BW^-: So, you have determined what state (and how much) you are willing to save on disk?
2014-11-15T21:59:52Z Riastradh: And how many different states there might be, and how to identify them, &c.?
2014-11-15T21:59:57Z BW^-: Riastradh,vanila: and ALSO at every point where an internal procedure is defined within the procedure! such as a (let loop () !!
2014-11-15T22:00:02Z BW^-: Riastradh: YES!
2014-11-15T22:00:05Z ecraven: Riastradh: I have a hacked working macro for required, optional, keyword and rest macros.. ugly :( I should probably disallow mixing optional and keyword parameters, and maybe even rest.. keyword + rest is .. strange
2014-11-15T22:00:05Z BW^-: :)
2014-11-15T22:00:11Z BW^-: Riastradh: i'm >90% done with that yes
2014-11-15T22:00:40Z Riastradh: ecraven: If you use Racket-style named arguments, mixing optional positional and named parameters, and even rest arguments, is not a problem at all...
2014-11-15T22:00:55Z ecraven: Riastradh: According to my reading of the source, there is no way to influence what (pa <procedure>) produces, right? Would be nice to "see" the keyword stuff in SLIME
2014-11-15T22:00:55Z BW^-: what's the >< smiley meaning?
2014-11-15T22:01:07Z ecraven: Riastradh: hm.. I mostly read the CL documentation, I'll look into racket too, thanks!
2014-11-15T22:01:20Z Riastradh: ecraven: See <http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/mit-keyword.scm>.
2014-11-15T22:01:29Z BW^-: ecraven: there's more Schemes too!
2014-11-15T22:01:48Z BW^-: ecraven: Gambit, Chez, SISC, Ypsilon
2014-11-15T22:01:53Z BW^-: the list goes on all day!
2014-11-15T22:01:59Z vanila: maybe if you perform CPS transform on the code, then you will be able to pause at any of the continuations by storing the continuation name and the parameters at that point
2014-11-15T22:02:07Z BW^-: ecraven: however of course there may be a aprticular thing that Racket does that you're looking for
2014-11-15T22:02:15Z BW^-: vanila: yes, exactly
2014-11-15T22:02:17Z vanila: CPS and closure conversion
2014-11-15T22:02:21Z BW^-: i'll need to do something like that
2014-11-15T22:02:25Z vanila: so basically you are writing a scheme compiler
2014-11-15T22:02:29Z BW^-: right
2014-11-15T22:02:35Z BW^-: vanila: this code will be very simple
2014-11-15T22:02:42Z BW^-: vanila: a Scheme to Scheme compiler yeah :)
2014-11-15T22:02:56Z BW^-: vanila: however, the language structs I support can maybe be extremely few
2014-11-15T22:03:01Z BW^-: i'll need to medidate on this just a little bit
2014-11-15T22:03:07Z BW^-: Riastradh: do you have any more feedback on Step 2 now?
2014-11-15T22:03:14Z vanila: do you want my code for those two passes
2014-11-15T22:03:18Z BW^-: Riastradh: so I basically need to implement a Very Simple R5RS-based Scheme to Scheme compiler,
2014-11-15T22:03:28Z BW^-: vanila: sure, did you write one already?
2014-11-15T22:03:30Z vanila: yeah
2014-11-15T22:03:58Z BW^-: vanila: neat, send it over! :)
2014-11-15T22:03:58Z Riastradh: BW^-: Well...  I would be inclined to write out more explicitly what the intermediate saveable quantities in question are, unless you really want this to scale up and be a little brittle about the on-disk format.
2014-11-15T22:04:33Z BW^-: Riastradh: I think all of this is clarified
2014-11-15T22:04:43Z BW^-: Riastradh: but, I'll need to think it through all again now that I realized this kind of format is needed
2014-11-15T22:05:25Z Riastradh: I would probably be inclined to write out a fairly explicit state machine, not nested code that has to be compiled into one.
2014-11-15T22:06:23Z BW^-: Riastradh: wait, can you clarify further what you meant by that?
2014-11-15T22:06:24Z Riastradh: Might represent each state by a procedure that takes associated data as an argument and returns a new state.
2014-11-15T22:06:25Z BW^-: Riastradh: I think I agree
2014-11-15T22:06:27Z BW^-: the last row
2014-11-15T22:06:44Z BW^-: Riastradh: yeeeeah... sooomething of the sort, close to that
2014-11-15T22:07:53Z Riastradh: (define-state (frobnitz datum) ... (if (foo?) (transition womble (+ datum 1)) (transition zomble (sqrt datum)))), where DEFINE-STATE expands into (define frobnitz (make-state 'FROBNITZ (lambda (datum) ...))) or something.
2014-11-15T22:08:04Z Riastradh: Gotta run.
2014-11-15T22:08:05Z Riastradh: *poof*
2014-11-15T22:09:06Z BW^-: k
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2014-11-15T22:14:18Z cojy: BW^-: do you have any example code ? i have a hard time grasping what you want from your explanation
2014-11-15T22:14:35Z ijp: b
2014-11-15T22:15:32Z BW^-: cojy,ijp: I tried to put that together but that's tricky -   so what I have is a procedure, we could call it |mylogic|
2014-11-15T22:16:37Z BW^-: cojy,ijp: i'm interested in being able to create an execution instance of this procedure |mylogic|, that is such that I can serialize and deserialize its execution within certain constraints, and then do suspend / resume operations, in a way that does *not* use the Scheme's closure/continuation-serialization mechanism for that end
2014-11-15T22:17:07Z BW^-: cojy,ijp: for this, I'll need to put static names on each suspend/resume point in the code, and also I'll need to implement a code mechanism that makes a complete code transformation of |mylogic|'s code
2014-11-15T22:18:05Z BW^-: cojy,ijp: does this description make sense for you?
2014-11-15T22:18:31Z BW^-: cojy,ijp: |mylogic| is a very simple procedure. it may not be needed that local variables are actually carried from scopes into their sub-scopes that are on the other side of a suspend/resume point
2014-11-15T22:20:33Z BW^-: cojy: however, there is need for some ability to recur..
2014-11-15T22:20:33Z BW^-: hmm
2014-11-15T22:20:40Z ecraven: BW^-: just looking for ways to handle required, optional, keyword and rest parameters in various combinations :)
2014-11-15T22:21:00Z BW^-: ecraven: aha
2014-11-15T22:21:03Z cojy: yea overall it makes sense but its easier if you hvae example code of what mylogic would look like
2014-11-15T22:21:06Z BW^-: ecraven: I like how Gambit does that slicing
2014-11-15T22:21:07Z cojy: even vary vague
2014-11-15T22:21:11Z BW^-: right
2014-11-15T22:21:15Z BW^-: yes exactly
2014-11-15T22:21:41Z BW^-: cojy: i'll need to analyze the problem further here, I think
2014-11-15T22:26:45Z BW^-: vanila: ...so what I'm looking for is indeed a CPS conversion,
2014-11-15T22:26:51Z BW^-: vanila: but not really at the level of the Scheme code per se,
2014-11-15T22:27:06Z BW^-: vanila: but at the granularity of the internal building blocks of |mylogic|
2014-11-15T22:27:21Z vanila: SHIFT/RESET lets you program CPS type things in direct style
2014-11-15T22:27:39Z BW^-: vanila: yeah, but for that I still need to have an object reference on the Scheme heap, to the closure etc.
2014-11-15T22:27:43Z BW^-: vanila: in my context, I can't do that
2014-11-15T22:27:55Z BW^-: vanila: it needs to be 100% serialized to persistent media, without using the Scheme system's closure/continuation serializer
2014-11-15T22:28:04Z vanila: it's not related to serialization or anything
2014-11-15T22:28:14Z vanila: just lets you write code in a different way
2014-11-15T22:28:15Z BW^-: vanila: ah yeah but how would that help me
2014-11-15T22:28:16Z BW^-: ?
2014-11-15T22:28:19Z cojy: BW^-: its to implement what you want, its really easy with that
2014-11-15T22:28:21Z vanila: like how you were saying you had to invert the whole program
2014-11-15T22:28:24Z vanila: to make it serializable
2014-11-15T22:28:39Z vanila: its possible that you could write with that same advantage, but in direct style rather than inverted
2014-11-15T22:28:45Z vanila: just another idea to look into
2014-11-15T22:28:49Z BW^-: cojy: yeah, right, I think I need just to clarify my problem and then implementing this DSL *may* be very straightforward
2014-11-15T22:29:21Z BW^-: vanila: well, I can't "emulate" a RESET point, without having executed up to the point of its SHIFT.. sth like this, no?
2014-11-15T22:29:23Z cojy: i suggest pretending like you have continuations available then write a code transformer
2014-11-15T22:29:49Z BW^-: cojy: yes yes, right exactly
2014-11-15T22:29:51Z BW^-: ok, thinking time.
2014-11-15T22:30:46Z cojy: you can ONLY do delimited continuations when you are only transforming part of your code
2014-11-15T22:32:00Z BW^-: cojy,vanila: my exit/entry points are defined as follows:
2014-11-15T22:32:03Z BW^-: defined (exit/entry-point unique-name value-to-outside-world . continuation-code),
2014-11-15T22:32:07Z BW^-: and |continuation-code| is executed with a local variable |value-from-outside-world|
2014-11-15T22:32:46Z BW^-: cojy,vanila: i.e. it's not real continuations, it's just code blocks in code blocks and the ability for my "deserializer" to dispatch code blocks down the code tree somewhere, directly from the top'
2014-11-15T22:32:54Z BW^-: anyhow, problem analyzis time :)
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2014-11-15T22:33:19Z BW^-: vanila: thanks for suggesting that this is a "CPS transformation" problem and that it's something of a "Scheme to Scheme compiler" I want to do
2014-11-15T22:33:31Z BW^-: that helped me clarify this - thanks a lot for your feedback :)
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2014-11-15T22:33:53Z BW^-: so now lessee...
2014-11-15T22:33:56Z vanila: yyeah I hope it helps a bit!
2014-11-15T22:36:35Z BW^-: vanila: so it's actually a "particular-DSL-level CPS transformation" I need, and what I need is a "particular-DSL-Scheme to Scheme compiler" with a "particular-DSL-Scheme-continuation serialization" mechanism
2014-11-15T22:36:35Z BW^-: heh
2014-11-15T22:37:12Z cojy: also known as, a macro :p
2014-11-15T22:37:25Z BW^-: cojy: well, that's probably the format in which I'll implement it, yes, I agree :)
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2014-11-15T22:38:36Z cojy: BW^-: btw i still think you are thinking about it at too low of a level
2014-11-15T22:39:37Z cojy: i would recommend some wishful thinking as to what the dream code would look like if it just magically existed for you then make the implementation fit that, rather than thinking about the implementation first
2014-11-15T22:39:39Z BW^-: cojy: I understand your worry - I will need to get the problem further clarified first though
2014-11-15T22:39:58Z BW^-: cojy: yes yes, I know,
2014-11-15T22:40:09Z BW^-: cojy: theoretically I already have the dream code
2014-11-15T22:40:17Z BW^-: cojy: it's like, I have it, it just written in the wrong format and is not complete
2014-11-15T22:40:39Z BW^-: cojy: so right now, I just need to clarify this bigger problem as a whole, as to be able to *then* write the final dream code as to *then* write the transformer
2014-11-15T22:40:42Z BW^-: &serializer
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2014-11-15T22:42:17Z vanila: that "wishful thinking" technique is one of the best ways to program
2014-11-15T22:42:32Z BW^-: cojy,vanila: hopefully the serializer (which is invoked by the outside world for executing |mylogic|) can be implemented using like two forms, |start| and |resume|     , and then the  CPS-whatever DSL in |mylogic|'s code would  also be implemented in terms of very very few forms, something like an |exit/entry-point| form.. and then something like a |define-transcendent| to make defines that transcend |exit/entry-point| borders!
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2014-11-15T22:43:01Z BW^-: ("reentry" into an |exit/entry-point| is done to the code defined *within* it[s form], and return of an |exit/entry-point|.. maybe leads nowhere)
2014-11-15T22:43:04Z BW^-: so simple a DSL..
2014-11-15T22:43:14Z BW^-: vanila: wait, what do you mean?
2014-11-15T22:43:20Z cojy: sounds like what you want was solved many times over long ago
2014-11-15T22:43:31Z BW^-: cojy: for sure it was
2014-11-15T22:43:37Z cojy: if all you want is serializable threads with dynamic binding that can be done easily
2014-11-15T22:43:39Z BW^-: cojy: but do you know any example code doing this?
2014-11-15T22:44:00Z BW^-: cojy: well, problem is just that *only extremely selected bindings* should be done
2014-11-15T22:44:05Z BW^-: others just vanish at serialization time
2014-11-15T22:44:24Z BW^-: cojy: but you're right that my problem could be described as a "serializable thread" problem
2014-11-15T22:44:28Z cojy: thread-local variables are in most implementations
2014-11-15T22:44:36Z BW^-: ahno no
2014-11-15T22:44:56Z cojy: dynamic binding that cooperates with continuations
2014-11-15T22:45:02Z BW^-: cojy: I need to be able to launch my "thread" (|mylogic|) out of nothing, and the deserializer enter into it already from then, starting at arbitrary code positions inside it
2014-11-15T22:45:07Z BW^-: anyhow.
2014-11-15T22:45:11Z BW^-: now thinking time.
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2014-11-15T22:53:47Z BW^-: vanila: were you serious or joking when you said that "wishful thinking" is one of the best ways to program?
2014-11-15T22:54:51Z vanila: serious
2014-11-15T22:54:54Z BW^-: vanila: as long as you have 100% clarity about the problem *and* its implications, then I think within a reasoning scoped to that,
2014-11-15T22:55:06Z cojy: i dont
2014-11-15T22:55:26Z BW^-: then *wishful thinking* in the sense of an exploratory way of clarifying the levels of the problem, DSL needed, and so on,
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2014-11-15T22:55:41Z BW^-: are the best way to program, yes
2014-11-15T22:56:14Z cojy: i think you aren't thinking wishfull enough ^_^
2014-11-15T22:56:15Z BW^-: however generally you have a further clue from step 1 and you better *design* it than do it in an exploratory fashion, as the latter easily turns out to be a hack
2014-11-15T22:56:21Z BW^-: =))
2014-11-15T22:56:33Z BW^-: anyhow.
2014-11-15T22:56:49Z cojy: it would be a lot easier to help you if oyu just gave what it would look like without writing anything for example using built-in call/cc or threads
2014-11-15T22:56:56Z cojy: then make an implementation that fits the same code
2014-11-15T22:57:22Z BW^-: cojy: yeah, I should come up with "pseudocode" in a while!
2014-11-15T22:57:30Z BW^-: cojy:  I must just clarify the problem further on my end to do that,
2014-11-15T22:58:03Z BW^-: cojy: so that this "dream code" is *actually* representative of my actual problem,a nd not just partially, because I wouldn't want to spend time implementing anything broken/leaky/insufficient
2014-11-15T22:58:15Z BW^-: cojy: give me some hours :))
2014-11-15T22:58:28Z BW^-: perhaps even just 1 could be sufficient duno wil see
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2014-11-15T23:40:02Z LeoNerd: https://twitter.com/lvsn/status/533685461957349376  (SFW, random cat picture, semi ontopic)  since it's quiet in here I thought people would appreciate
2014-11-15T23:43:39Z vanila: thanks LeoNerd
2014-11-15T23:44:11Z hypermagic: lambda.c macronizing abstraction linux gcc  http://pastebin.com/ymrx528s
2014-11-15T23:48:17Z hypermagic: functional polymorphism optimization macronizing abstraction  http://pastebin.com/iquR2PEh
2014-11-15T23:49:52Z vanila: sup hypermagic :)
2014-11-15T23:50:04Z hypermagic: hi :)
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2014-11-15T23:54:31Z hypermagic: functional polymorphism, macronizing abstraction using gcc   http://pastebin.com/LXZM6RSY
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