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2016-11-24T02:06:10Z Guest_84483: allah is doing
2016-11-24T02:06:39Z Guest_84483: sun is not doing allah is doing
2016-11-24T02:07:22Z Guest_84483: moon is not doing allah is doing
2016-11-24T02:08:06Z Guest_84483: stars are not doing allah is doing
2016-11-24T02:09:02Z Guest_84483: planets are not doing allah is doing
2016-11-24T02:09:08Z windsing joined #scheme
2016-11-24T02:10:23Z Guest_84483: galaxies are not doing allah is doing
2016-11-24T02:12:00Z Guest_84483: oceans are not doing allah is doing
2016-11-24T02:13:14Z Guest_84483: mountains are not doing allah is doing
2016-11-24T02:15:54Z Guest_84483: trees are not doing allah is doing
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2016-11-24T02:18:03Z Menche: lol
2016-11-24T02:19:07Z Menche: so
2016-11-24T02:19:14Z Menche: Guest_84483 is not spamming allah is spamming
2016-11-24T02:19:15Z Menche: ?
2016-11-24T02:20:29Z Guest_84483: mom is not doing allah is doing
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2016-11-24T02:22:42Z Guest_84483: dad is not doing allah is doing
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2016-11-24T02:23:02Z Menche: yay
2016-11-24T02:23:58Z mikeyhc: (map allah-doing '(sun moon stars planets galaxies oceans mountains trees mom dad))
2016-11-24T02:24:05Z Menche: :D
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2016-11-24T02:54:12Z lemonpie: i never thought i'd see the day reddit called zed shaw 'a crank'
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2016-11-24T02:58:31Z qu1j0t3: his views merely fell out of alignment with  them :)
2016-11-24T02:58:57Z lemonpie: i dunno, i'm kind of surprised either zed OR reddit know about turing completeness :P
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2016-11-24T03:00:20Z Menche: about the "python 3 can't run python 2 so it is not turing complete" statement?
2016-11-24T03:00:27Z lemonpie: yeah
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2016-11-24T03:03:25Z Menche: "In the programming language theory there is this basic requirement that, given a 'complete' programming language, I can run any other programming language."  ← I didn't really get that one either
2016-11-24T03:03:43Z Menche: or the next sentence "In the world of Java I'm able to run Ruby, Java, C++, C, and Lua all at the same time. In the world of Microsoft I can run F#, C#, C++, and Python all at the same time."
2016-11-24T03:04:12Z Menche: or any sentence in that section, really "There is solid math behind it. Math that is truly the foundation of computer science."
2016-11-24T03:04:35Z Menche: is there math behind having two different, separate interpreters installed on your filesystem?
2016-11-24T03:04:41Z lemonpie: i mean, obviously he doesn't know what turing completeness *is*, but he's heard the term, and that surprises me
2016-11-24T03:05:27Z Menche: can anyone explain "You Should Be Able to Run 2 and 3" further or is he simply implying that the Python devs won't let you have a Python 2 and Python 3 binary on your filesystem at the same time?
2016-11-24T03:05:42Z Menche: that's all I can get from that :P
2016-11-24T03:05:57Z lemonpie: i think he's trying to say that you should be able to run python 2 *bytecode* on a python 3 VM
2016-11-24T03:06:06Z Menche: ok
2016-11-24T03:06:20Z Menche: what's "In the world of Java I'm able to run Ruby, Java, C++, C, and Lua all at the same time." mean though
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2016-11-24T03:07:29Z lemonpie: there are implementations of those languages on the java bytecode, i think he means
2016-11-24T03:07:37Z Menche: ok?
2016-11-24T03:07:41Z lemonpie: Jruby, etc
2016-11-24T03:08:20Z lemonpie: but it still doesn't really say anything about turing completeness, .NET is turing complete (afaik) but can't really host a true lisp/scheme
2016-11-24T03:08:49Z Menche: that whole page seems rather bizarre
2016-11-24T03:09:40Z lemonpie: all turing completeness says is that an environment can host a turing tape processor, which then implies that 'any algorithm could theoretically be implemented on it', although it doesn't say it must be the same efficiency/implementation
2016-11-24T03:13:29Z Menche: I guess he's saying you could implement a Python 2 interpreter in Python 3?
2016-11-24T03:13:45Z Menche: which I'm sure is possible, but not useful enough for anyone to have done it
2016-11-24T03:13:50Z lemonpie: no, he's saying you can't, and that's why python 3 is bad, and he's probably wrong
2016-11-24T03:15:23Z Menche: o.o
2016-11-24T03:15:24Z lemonpie: he added a big box that essentially says 'it was a joak, i was just pretending to be stupid'
2016-11-24T03:17:31Z Menche doesn't see that
2016-11-24T03:18:30Z lemonpie: there's a blue box after his claim that it's not turing complete, that contains text starting with "Yes, that is kind of a funny way of saying..."
2016-11-24T03:19:44Z Menche: that doesn't really solve any of my questions about that paragraph? lol
2016-11-24T03:19:52Z Menche: "I should also mention that as stupid as that sounds, actual Python project developers have told me this, so it's their position that their own language is not Turing complete."  what
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2016-11-24T03:20:12Z lemonpie shrugs
2016-11-24T03:20:30Z Menche: "Obviously it's theoretically possible to run Python 2 in Python 3, but until they do it then they have decided to say that Python 3 cannot run one other Turing complete language so logically Python 3 is not Turing complete."
2016-11-24T03:20:39Z Menche: uuuhhh
2016-11-24T03:20:58Z Menche: he's saying they should implement a Python 2 interpreter in Python 3 in order to prove that it is Turing complete?
2016-11-24T03:21:20Z Menche 's brain still hurts
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2016-11-24T03:23:07Z MoronicAcid: Who is Zed Shaw?
2016-11-24T03:24:41Z lemonpie: he's... well, he wrote mongrel for twitter, then coined the idea of 'rockstar developer', bitched about rails being bad, and then wrote some awful 'how to' guides for python
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2016-11-24T03:26:05Z Menche: sounds fun
2016-11-24T03:27:00Z MoronicAcid: lemonpie: lol
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2016-11-24T03:50:36Z qu1j0t3: he has jumped from community to community like this
2016-11-24T03:50:43Z qu1j0t3: it became a pattern
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2016-11-24T04:45:32Z Hijiri: zed shaw is the "hard way" books guy right?
2016-11-24T04:50:39Z Menche: think so
2016-11-24T04:50:40Z Menche: https://eev.ee/blog/2016/11/23/a-rebuttal-for-python-3/
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2016-11-24T10:50:54Z nilof: Which scheme implementation is easiest to work with on windows?
2016-11-24T10:51:56Z nilof: No particular requirements, just non-obscurity and ease of getting a repl up and running to play with
2016-11-24T10:52:07Z C-Keen: drRacket probably
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2016-11-24T11:42:33Z mario-goulart: nilof: there's also http://www.biwascheme.org/ , if you don't mind a "cloud" scheme.  You don't even need to install it.
2016-11-24T11:42:41Z mario-goulart: "Scheme as a service"
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2016-11-24T16:09:49Z zacts: hi schemers
2016-11-24T16:10:40Z zacts: nilof: you can also try c9.io
2016-11-24T16:10:43Z zacts: http://c9.io
2016-11-24T16:10:59Z zacts: ^ this will let you have a Linux shell account that you can test from a windows web browser
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2016-11-24T20:34:20Z wingo: schemerzzzz
2016-11-24T20:34:29Z wingo: i have a basic question
2016-11-24T20:34:49Z wingo: so, parameters.  in guile they are built on fluids, a kind of thread-local cell.
2016-11-24T20:34:59Z wingo: new threads inherit the fluids from the thread that created them, and so on.
2016-11-24T20:35:09Z wingo: racket has the same with "thread cells".
2016-11-24T20:35:50Z wingo: in guile each fluid has an index, and that index accessed a slot in a vector from the current thread.
2016-11-24T20:36:08Z wingo: the fluid->index mapping is weak, so if a fluid goes away the slot can be re-used.
2016-11-24T20:36:35Z wingo: this works fine.  it works especially well when you have few threads, as guile has traditionally had
2016-11-24T20:37:01Z wingo: guile threads are kernel threads, so they have a bunch of per-thread memory overhead in other areas, mostly the stack that the kernel map gives them.
2016-11-24T20:37:08Z wingo: anyway!
2016-11-24T20:37:52Z wingo: i have a lightweight fiber library written on top of that.  i want per-fiber overhead to be really low.  right now a benchmark that spawns 1e6 fibers, all of which try to send messages on the same channel, then the main fiber reads off 1e6 messages --
2016-11-24T20:38:03Z wingo: that has a peak heap usage of around 450MB.
2016-11-24T20:38:35Z wingo: but, although parameterizations made by a fiber are preserved when a fiber is suspended then resumed,
2016-11-24T20:38:59Z wingo: fibers don't currently inherit the parameterization from the fiber that created them.
2016-11-24T20:39:18Z wingo: i would like to do that though -- but guile's representation of fluids would cause quite a significant memory overhead
2016-11-24T20:40:20Z wingo: racket uses a hash table of thread cells.  spawning a new thread effectively copies all thread cells from the parent to the child.
2016-11-24T20:41:25Z wingo: that also seems a bit excessive from a memory POV; but I don't know.
2016-11-24T20:41:46Z wingo: the question is, does anyone know of a dynamic scoping strategy appropriate for 1e6 threads
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2016-11-24T20:44:44Z wingo: also robust to concurrency... hard.
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2016-11-24T20:45:49Z wingo: i guess you can atomically set an "aliased" bit on each location in a parameterization, when you go to copy a parameterization
2016-11-24T20:46:35Z wingo: and represent a parameterization as a chain/tree somehow with lazy memoization at the leaves...
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2016-11-24T21:19:20Z daviid: wingo: shooting in the dark, high priviledge of 'ignorants' but how about sharing them all, until a thread wants to mutate one of the parameters, then that thread pays the cost (it 'locally' copies)
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2016-11-24T21:24:55Z wingo: i think that is somethign like what i will do
2016-11-24T21:27:13Z daviid: great!  wingo will you, at some point, integrate fibers with guile and more specificlly par-map and friends? I'm extensively using them and would be so happy to reduce their current overhead precisely ...
2016-11-24T21:28:09Z wingo: re: fibers and guile, i don't know.  i am wary of cementing mistakes -- things are harder to change when they are in guile
2016-11-24T21:28:30Z wingo: as far as par-map goes tho, right now par-map is a parallelism primitive
2016-11-24T21:28:43Z wingo: not concurrency
2016-11-24T21:29:13Z wingo: in the sense that par-map uses kernel threads, and limits their number to the number of cores
2016-11-24T21:29:15Z daviid: wingo: yes, right, and yes to the former as well, things are nicer to play with when outside core ...
2016-11-24T21:29:32Z daviid: thanks
2016-11-24T21:29:37Z wingo: whereas if you want to fetch many urls or something at the same time, you need a primitive with different guarantees
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2016-11-24T21:30:52Z daviid: wingo: for what I have to do, all is totally parallel work, nothing I do needs (except user feedback, somehow unfortunately :), then I use a mutex ...) th share anything
2016-11-24T21:31:21Z daviid: * th / to
2016-11-24T21:32:43Z wingo: in that case just use par-map :)
2016-11-24T21:32:59Z wingo: tho i know you have a bug open that par-map wasn't working as designed
2016-11-24T21:33:05Z wingo: that is a bug tho
2016-11-24T21:37:32Z daviid: ok, and yes, there is this bug, hopefully one day it will be fixed
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