2016-08-28T00:00:19Z n_blownapart: word 2016-08-28T00:00:25Z n_blownapart: thanks ! 2016-08-28T00:05:37Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-08-28T00:14:16Z grublet joined #scheme 2016-08-28T00:22:38Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-08-28T00:22:45Z oleo joined #scheme 2016-08-28T00:34:18Z n_blownapart quit 2016-08-28T00:35:52Z qu1j0t3: +1 2016-08-28T00:36:30Z robotoad joined #scheme 2016-08-28T00:37:28Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-08-28T00:44:32Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-08-28T00:45:09Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2016-08-28T00:46:36Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-08-28T00:47:44Z bjz joined #scheme 2016-08-28T00:49:35Z rgrinberg joined #scheme 2016-08-28T00:50:39Z zacts joined #scheme 2016-08-28T01:01:51Z Rptx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-28T01:02:27Z ddp quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-08-28T01:03:00Z noethics quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-28T01:03:01Z ddp joined #scheme 2016-08-28T01:06:30Z rgrinberg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-28T01:07:49Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-08-28T01:18:30Z annodomini_ joined #scheme 2016-08-28T01:18:31Z annodomini_ quit (Changing host) 2016-08-28T01:18:31Z annodomini_ joined #scheme 2016-08-28T01:21:28Z annodomini quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-08-28T01:21:28Z annodomini_ is now known as annodomini 2016-08-28T01:24:38Z foof: ecraven: nice embedding, whatever that UI is :) 2016-08-28T01:28:30Z foof: looks like the flexible array member [] is C99, though it worked in 9c 2016-08-28T01:28:47Z foof: [0] is a gcc extension, not sure how portable that would be 2016-08-28T01:29:07Z foof: older c's you may need to use [1] which wastes space 2016-08-28T01:30:12Z foof: if [0] works reliably on all major c++ compilers we can #ifdef for c++ 2016-08-28T01:30:59Z ddp quit (Quit: ddp) 2016-08-28T01:32:45Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-08-28T01:35:45Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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It would just be nice not to have to wrap the c code with c just because of this :) 2016-08-28T05:54:58Z chishiki quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-08-28T05:57:55Z ecraven: foof`: alternatively, maybe there's a way so that the definition sexp_struct isn't needed when just using the library, so it could disappear from the external header files? 2016-08-28T06:02:10Z ecraven: though at a very quick glance that doesn't seem easy 2016-08-28T06:04:20Z parsnip joined #scheme 2016-08-28T06:15:13Z foof`: not possible, sexp is a pointer to sexp_struct 2016-08-28T06:34:36Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2016-08-28T06:34:39Z ecraven: Yes, but if that weren't ever dereferenced in the headers, it should work. However, a lot of macros use it :/ 2016-08-28T06:39:59Z ggole joined #scheme 2016-08-28T06:50:44Z wbooze joined #scheme 2016-08-28T06:53:00Z sophiag joined #scheme 2016-08-28T06:53:06Z sophiag: hi 2016-08-28T06:55:30Z wbooze quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-08-28T06:55:46Z sophiag: can anyone elucidate this comment at the top of the metacircular evaluator code provided on the mit press site? 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I've been on chapter one for months 2016-08-28T19:44:14Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: I understand 2016-08-28T19:44:28Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: this ex, though, they kind of give it to you on a plate. let me see... 2016-08-28T19:45:10Z n_blownapart: the solutions for compute p' and q' I got from 'billthelizard' site. 2016-08-28T19:45:19Z n_blownapart: no clue 2016-08-28T19:45:25Z qu1j0t3: eh you could have ripped off my answer too. 2016-08-28T19:45:43Z qu1j0t3: what's the ex number again? 2016-08-28T19:45:52Z n_blownapart: I just get other people's answers and study them. its 1.19 2016-08-28T19:46:34Z n_blownapart: lines 11 and 12 are excluded in the original prob. 2016-08-28T19:47:51Z qu1j0t3: well, your answer is the same as mine, where q' and p' are concerned 2016-08-28T19:47:56Z qu1j0t3: so where's the problem? 2016-08-28T19:48:44Z zm quit (Quit: Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients) 2016-08-28T19:49:22Z n_blownapart: the problem is following the math with the pq bit. what's it doing? (btw my mouse battery is dying I may have a problem corresponding soon) 2016-08-28T19:52:12Z n_blownapart: the family of transformations and all that is beyond me.. 2016-08-28T19:54:04Z qu1j0t3: ok, yes, this is a common objection for SICP. They definitely do some stuff where they don't explain what's going on inside, and say, "here are the parts, just assemble". this exercise is a perfect example. 2016-08-28T19:54:38Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: the paragraph explains it, but it's dense. at what sentence do you lose track? 2016-08-28T19:55:54Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: the exercise also calls for you to 'show that if we apply such a transformation T_pq twice,the effect is the same as using a single transformation T_p'q' of the same form" 2016-08-28T19:56:02Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: so you'd have to expand it yourself and show that it's the same 2016-08-28T20:00:48Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-08-28T20:01:28Z drdo joined #scheme 2016-08-28T20:01:56Z Tenhi_ joined #scheme 2016-08-28T20:04:39Z octo quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-08-28T20:05:29Z octo_ joined #scheme 2016-08-28T20:06:47Z Tenhi_ quit (K-Lined) 2016-08-28T20:09:48Z leot quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-08-28T20:10:00Z leot joined #scheme 2016-08-28T20:10:00Z leot quit (Changing host) 2016-08-28T20:10:00Z leot joined #scheme 2016-08-28T20:11:29Z ggole quit 2016-08-28T20:16:01Z immodules quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-08-28T20:17:09Z igajsin joined #scheme 2016-08-28T20:17:32Z igajsin left #scheme 2016-08-28T20:18:59Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: There is a powerful analogy here that might help. 2016-08-28T20:19:30Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: Remember the earlier exercise about exponentiation? 2016-08-28T20:22:31Z mario-goulart quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-28T20:22:44Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2016-08-28T20:23:15Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: yeah sorry I lost you for a second.. 2016-08-28T20:23:43Z n_blownapart: I'm listening 2016-08-28T20:24:16Z n_blownapart: which one the tail-recursive one? 2016-08-28T20:26:03Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-08-28T20:26:57Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: basically exercises 1.16, 1.17, 1.18 are trying to show you the general approach 2016-08-28T20:28:39Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: if you have a formula for a transformation repeated twice, you can substitute this and halve your effort. i.e. x^9 is eight multiplications if you do it the long way, or x*((x^2)^2)^2 (one mult and three squarings) if you do it taking advantage of squaring. 2016-08-28T20:28:41Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: its confusing the (fib-iter 1 0 0 1 n) parameters are confusing. another member was explaining it in terms of binary exponentiation. how are the parameters set up? 2016-08-28T20:29:01Z qu1j0t3: it's directly analogous to exponentiation as laid out in the preceding exercises, yes. 2016-08-28T20:29:23Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: a, b, p, q are initialised in the outermost call to fib-iter. 2016-08-28T20:29:37Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: so it's the usual way of using parameters as state, in recursion. 2016-08-28T20:30:04Z n_blownapart: the 3rd and 4th parameter represent what? 2016-08-28T20:31:40Z qu1j0t3: they define the 'kind' of transformation. 2016-08-28T20:32:16Z qu1j0t3: "T_pq transforms the pair (a,b) according to a <- bq + aq + ap and b <- bp + aq" 2016-08-28T20:32:40Z qu1j0t3: so, T_0,1 is one iteration of Fib, if I read this correctly. 2016-08-28T20:33:00Z qu1j0t3: the key insight here is that (T_0,1)^2 is an instance of T_pq as well, with a different pq 2016-08-28T20:33:10Z qu1j0t3: i.e. it costs the same 2016-08-28T20:33:23Z qu1j0t3: you have to show this in the exercise. 2016-08-28T20:33:31Z qu1j0t3: you can do it by expanding (T_0,1)^2 2016-08-28T20:34:02Z qu1j0t3: first step: WRite out a <- bq + aq + ap and b <- bp + aq taking p = 0, and q = 1 2016-08-28T20:34:44Z qu1j0t3: then substitute these into one more iteration of the same thing 2016-08-28T20:34:55Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: the fact is, this does need some high school algebra. 2016-08-28T20:36:30Z n_blownapart: ok . I see so we set the 3rd and 4th parameter s to 0 1 which are the first fib numbers that go through a squaring process on line 11? 2016-08-28T20:36:35Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: ^ 2016-08-28T20:37:53Z n_blownapart: well no that would only be for (even? n) 2016-08-28T20:38:21Z n_blownapart: or for odd as well? 2016-08-28T20:41:12Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3: thanks I'll get it. I have an in-person tutor. This is rough. really appreciate it down under. 2016-08-28T20:41:15Z robotoad quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-08-28T20:41:33Z qu1j0t3: p and q aren't Fib numbers 2016-08-28T20:41:42Z qu1j0t3: a and b are 2016-08-28T20:42:06Z Kooda left #scheme 2016-08-28T20:42:33Z qu1j0t3: p and q define the transformation to be applied 2016-08-28T20:43:09Z n_blownapart: ok yeah I was wondering why the order was different. they are not constants but are updated with the recursions. 2016-08-28T20:43:15Z qu1j0t3: yeah 2016-08-28T20:43:35Z qu1j0t3: i guess the mindbending part here is that the transformation itself is being transformed. 2016-08-28T20:43:59Z qu1j0t3: the _motive_ for all this, is to get log n cost 2016-08-28T20:44:24Z qu1j0t3: and the _key insight_ is finding the formula for the iterated transformation ("squaring") 2016-08-28T20:44:35Z qu1j0t3: (it's not literally squaring, but analogous to squaring in exponentiation) 2016-08-28T20:46:36Z n_blownapart: so in the case of (= n 2) we could see both the (even?) and odd conditions work.. (ie could we write out the output or is that too much of a pain?) 2016-08-28T20:47:17Z qu1j0t3: i think you'd need n=3 for that 2016-08-28T20:48:07Z n_blownapart: hmm 2016-08-28T20:49:21Z mejja joined #scheme 2016-08-28T20:50:59Z robotoad joined #scheme 2016-08-28T20:51:12Z qu1j0t3: then you get one odd iteration, which decrements by 1, then you get an even iteration (2), and then you're done. 2016-08-28T20:53:26Z n_blownapart: ok tonight I'll try to write it out by hand. that helps me see the process. thanks qu1j0t3 ! 2016-08-28T20:54:01Z qu1j0t3: np 2016-08-28T20:54:06Z qu1j0t3: i think n=3 should be a good case 2016-08-28T20:54:14Z n_blownapart: ok that's the one 2016-08-28T20:54:36Z evhan` is now known as evhan 2016-08-28T20:54:59Z n_blownapart quit 2016-08-28T21:01:52Z tmtwd joined #scheme 2016-08-28T21:06:48Z IstiCusi joined #scheme 2016-08-28T21:09:31Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-28T21:12:49Z IstiCusi quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-08-28T21:13:04Z IstiCusi joined #scheme 2016-08-28T21:14:02Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-08-28T21:21:05Z IstiCusi quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-08-28T21:24:31Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2016-08-28T21:28:52Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-08-28T21:54:18Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-08-28T21:57:29Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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