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2016-08-06T14:58:28Z pie_: hi guys, have any of you used the book "Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics"? (2001 but theres also a 2015 second edition=
2016-08-06T14:58:29Z pie_: )
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2016-08-06T15:00:14Z dpk: there's a new edition?
2016-08-06T15:00:19Z dpk: oh wow, so there is
2016-08-06T15:00:28Z pie_: dpk, :D
2016-08-06T15:00:34Z dpk: that's pretty cool
2016-08-06T15:00:43Z pie_: btw i have never used scheme (or any dialect of lisp for that matter)
2016-08-06T15:00:58Z dpk: i've never read it but i have heard very good things about it
2016-08-06T15:01:25Z pie_: but i think ill have "theoretical classical mechanics" next semester, and im, perhaps i could say, computationally inclined :P so it might be a good book to get
2016-08-06T15:01:28Z wasamasa: I've read it a bit, then remembered I better go through SICP first
2016-08-06T15:01:43Z wasamasa: as it feels like a successor to that book
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2016-08-06T15:02:02Z pie_ wanted to learn haskell first though :( looks like thats gonna be a ways off
2016-08-06T15:02:15Z noethics: sicp is great and all but does anyone actually finish it
2016-08-06T15:02:37Z wasamasa: no, simply because the last exercise is implementing a scheme interpreter in C :P
2016-08-06T15:02:38Z ijp: if by finish you mean "do 100% of the exercises" then no
2016-08-06T15:02:48Z noethics: oh
2016-08-06T15:02:56Z wasamasa: I've entertained that thought for a while
2016-08-06T15:03:01Z ijp: if you can settle for "read and absorb and be able to apply everything in it", then sure
2016-08-06T15:03:01Z noethics: it was taking too long
2016-08-06T15:03:03Z wasamasa: guess I'll just do my best
2016-08-06T15:03:21Z noethics: but that makes sense:D
2016-08-06T15:03:27Z dpk: > Exercise 5.52.  As a counterpoint to exercise 5.51, modify the compiler so that it compiles Scheme procedures into sequences of C instructions. Compile the metacircular evaluator of section 4.1 to produce a Scheme interpreter written in C.
2016-08-06T15:03:30Z wasamasa: and settle for 99%
2016-08-06T15:03:56Z ijp: wasamasa: has this became your favourite fact about sicp since I told you about it?
2016-08-06T15:04:09Z pie_: haha
2016-08-06T15:04:11Z wasamasa: ijp: yes, even more so than the sicp-bait collection
2016-08-06T15:04:23Z pie_: sicp-bait?
2016-08-06T15:04:29Z noethics: pretty sure my favourite reading material has been the ultimate papers
2016-08-06T15:04:39Z noethics: even though they don't apply that much anymore
2016-08-06T15:04:43Z pie_: you guys should link this stuff so i can waste time on more tihngs
2016-08-06T15:04:49Z ijp: noethics: define "apply"
2016-08-06T15:04:51Z wasamasa: pie_: there's been a lot of instances of a troll asking here, on #emacs and other channels whether SICP is a good book for them
2016-08-06T15:04:57Z wasamasa: pie_: I've collected them for #emacs to enjoy
2016-08-06T15:04:59Z pie_: heh
2016-08-06T15:05:07Z noethics: ijp, i mean the concepts regarding transforming function calls to GOTO and the like
2016-08-06T15:05:14Z noethics: basically rules out an entire paper from relevancy
2016-08-06T15:05:17Z ijp: that certainly applies
2016-08-06T15:05:23Z ijp: just write a compiler
2016-08-06T15:05:24Z pie_: i guess if i learn scheme i might as well switch to guix instead of nixos
2016-08-06T15:05:25Z pie_: <.>
2016-08-06T15:05:37Z noethics: people don't do that anymore according to a few people
2016-08-06T15:05:52Z noethics: function calls aren't expensive anymore
2016-08-06T15:06:09Z noethics: also some of the optimizations regarding the stack aren't relevant anymore either
2016-08-06T15:06:15Z noethics: as apparently newer hardware has a shadow stack
2016-08-06T15:06:27Z noethics: so it's the same as storing to a register basically in terms of speed
2016-08-06T15:06:41Z ijp: tail calls are still essentially goto in a fair number of languages
2016-08-06T15:07:02Z noethics: i am talking only about function calls specifically, no extra connotation ;D
2016-08-06T15:07:13Z noethics: but this is basically the entire topic of "the ultimate declarative" iirc
2016-08-06T15:07:51Z ijp: if you count the rabbit paper as an LtU, then it essentially got rid of the idea that lexical scoping was inefficient for first class functions
2016-08-06T15:08:06Z ijp: you can't overstate the importance of that
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2016-08-06T15:08:57Z noethics: which one btw?
2016-08-06T15:08:58Z ggole: Shadow stacks don't exist to reduce memory traffic, but to mitigate the branch misprediction that would otherwise come with jumping to a return address
2016-08-06T15:09:25Z noethics: ggole, that's a nice clarification
2016-08-06T15:09:39Z ggole: And there are other costs to function calls in practice
2016-08-06T15:09:51Z noethics: ggole, ones that make it worth optimizing for?
2016-08-06T15:10:04Z noethics: the biggest problem of the goto approach is debugging becomes impossible, right/
2016-08-06T15:10:07Z pierpa: anybody knows Sussman's Functional Differential Geometry?
2016-08-06T15:10:17Z ijp: noethics: "impossible"
2016-08-06T15:10:26Z noethics: well less useful
2016-08-06T15:10:33Z ijp: I'm going to stop listening now
2016-08-06T15:10:40Z noethics: ?
2016-08-06T15:10:42Z ijp: pierpa: what about it
2016-08-06T15:10:59Z pierpa: I don't know it. So I ask if anybody studied it
2016-08-06T15:10:59Z noethics: this opinion isn't necessarily my own. that's why i added a "right?"
2016-08-06T15:11:10Z ggole: noethics: CPS compilers (the ones that aren't using CPS purely as an IL) don't benefit from shadow stacks anyway
2016-08-06T15:11:32Z ggole: You have to use paired call/ret instructions to get the benefit
2016-08-06T15:11:46Z ijp: pierpa: I was going to, but I was having some issues with the guile version of scmutils and put it on hold
2016-08-06T15:11:54Z pierpa: k
2016-08-06T15:12:26Z noethics: ggole, why is that? don't you still need to pretty much have call/ret for any continuation that goes 2+ levels deep
2016-08-06T15:13:26Z ggole: The classic continuation approach is all tail calls with every activation record allocated on the heap
2016-08-06T15:14:09Z ggole: The intention is to make call/cc cheap and easy to implement (it's just keeping a pointer to a record)
2016-08-06T15:14:47Z noethics: ggole, do you mean preemptively allocated to the heap?
2016-08-06T15:15:05Z ggole: The result is that every call, including invoking a return continuation, is a tail call, eg, jump. Thus there's no call/ret pairing.
2016-08-06T15:15:54Z noethics: oh i see!
2016-08-06T15:16:42Z noethics: but this is really only a matter of implementation? you could do it with call/ret and shadow stacks if you chose?
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2016-08-06T15:17:51Z ggole: You can do it either way. There are various tradeoffs.
2016-08-06T15:18:17Z noethics: does scheme fundamentally lack concurrency?
2016-08-06T15:18:38Z pie_: pierpa, well i just saw it looking at sicm :P
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2016-08-06T15:19:00Z noethics: i've tried to find some information about concurrent implementations but there isn't much
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2016-08-06T15:19:42Z noethics: my shitty scheme compiler requires pre emptively allocating environments such that they're static and would break utterly if i added concurrency
2016-08-06T15:20:09Z noethics: i don't know how a scheme that does concurrency would do it
2016-08-06T15:20:37Z pie_: pierpa, if nothing else, what i do is get a pdf off libgen, see if i like it/whether its useful to me, and if yes i try to buy it
2016-08-06T15:21:53Z noethics: i imagine the way you said CPS compilers do it would break too, assuming the activation records were naive like mine
2016-08-06T15:22:54Z Riastradh: pierpa: I read an early draft of FDG.  It's a nice computational approach to a field that is otherwise heavy in notation that is hard to figure out unless you already know what it means.  But that draft was only a few dozen pages -- haven't yet seen what the full book turned into.
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2016-08-06T15:24:47Z noethics: i think even if i did implement concurrency, my ultimate goal would be parallel combinators. which i think i'd have to go off the spec to implement :(
2016-08-06T15:25:31Z Riastradh: noethics: Not really different from concurrency in any other language with mutable data structures.
2016-08-06T15:26:19Z noethics: Riastradh, i think it's different because of continuations
2016-08-06T15:26:51Z noethics: in order to implement them efficiently i allocate environments as data structures, assuming a fixed number of them
2016-08-06T15:27:13Z noethics: but if i could say call the same continuation twice, asynchronously, then i need to have two environments for the same continuation
2016-08-06T15:28:44Z noethics: and my compiler has to obviously be smarter now :'(
2016-08-06T15:28:59Z pierpa: pie_: riastradh: ok. ty.
2016-08-06T15:29:08Z ijp: riastradh even gets an acknowledgemnt in FDG
2016-08-06T15:30:50Z pierpa: ( :O
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2016-08-06T15:37:03Z ggole: I don't see how preallocated environments can work (for full scheme) whether there are threads or not
2016-08-06T15:38:45Z Riastradh: Also good in this area, though less computational, are Michael Spivak's five-volume differential geometry epic and _Physics for Mathematicians_.
2016-08-06T15:40:28Z noethics: ggole, it seems to work for the ~15 forms i have implemented :/ what do you think would cause a problem?
2016-08-06T15:40:50Z ggole: Closures
2016-08-06T15:41:01Z noethics: how so?
2016-08-06T15:41:30Z Riastradh: Here's what is basically an early draft of the latter one: http://alpha.math.uga.edu/~shifrin/Spivak_physics.pdf
2016-08-06T15:41:34Z ggole: You need unbounded space in general, since a given function can produce any number of function values
2016-08-06T15:42:41Z noethics: actually i think i have a misunderstanding of environments
2016-08-06T15:43:13Z noethics: i keep "temporary" variables in scopes which i guess you could call an environment itself
2016-08-06T15:44:07Z noethics: then invoke continuations with a first class environment that gets reified as the static environment i allocated for that scope
2016-08-06T15:44:44Z noethics: but in a way i guess you could just say each one is their own environment and reifying it is pointless
2016-08-06T15:44:48Z noethics: my compiler could just be smarter
2016-08-06T15:46:51Z Riastradh: And even if they're not as executable as SICM/FDG, Spivak's books are typographogasmic.  Serious math porn.
2016-08-06T15:48:23Z noethics: the problem is if i dont "reify" then i need everything in the environment to be a pointer basically
2016-08-06T15:48:41Z ijp: oh yeah baby, continuously deform that space
2016-08-06T15:49:21Z pierpa: :)
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2016-08-06T15:53:09Z pie_: haha
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2016-08-06T16:07:28Z pierpa: the Spivak's "draft" is a beautiful reading.
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2016-08-06T16:44:25Z pie_: actually it looks like the full text of 2nd edition SICM is on the mitpress website
2016-08-06T16:44:43Z ijp: yes, just like with sicp
2016-08-06T16:44:49Z pie_: mitpress.mit.edu/sotes/default/files/titles/content/sicm_edition2/book.html
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2016-08-06T18:39:07Z jcowan: hye ho
2016-08-06T18:39:21Z pie_: o/
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