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ZZZzzz…) 2016-06-16T03:10:25Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-06-16T03:33:40Z shardz quit (Quit: Into crypts of rays!) 2016-06-16T03:35:48Z leot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-16T03:45:28Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-06-16T03:50:05Z rjnw quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-06-16T03:59:52Z nowolfer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-06-16T04:05:47Z bokr joined #scheme 2016-06-16T04:09:47Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-16T04:10:45Z mastokley joined #scheme 2016-06-16T04:30:10Z nowolfer joined #scheme 2016-06-16T04:46:53Z nilg joined #scheme 2016-06-16T04:48:05Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-16T05:14:58Z nowolfer quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-06-16T05:22:10Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-16T05:22:34Z shdeng joined #scheme 2016-06-16T05:35:12Z Menche quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-16T05:39:01Z antoszka joined #scheme 2016-06-16T05:40:45Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-06-16T05:42:21Z Menche\demiC joined #scheme 2016-06-16T05:51:54Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-06-16T05:52:58Z antoszka quit (*.net *.split) 2016-06-16T05:52:59Z dmiles joined #scheme 2016-06-16T05:57:50Z antoszka joined #scheme 2016-06-16T06:10:37Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-16T06:24:43Z mario-go` is now known as mario-goulart 2016-06-16T06:25:51Z bokr quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-16T06:29:04Z leot joined #scheme 2016-06-16T06:30:51Z vydd quit 2016-06-16T06:32:30Z makufiru: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Fr8WVHzo/ 2016-06-16T06:32:58Z makufiru: sorry idk why irccloud did that, let me know if that's problematic to read 2016-06-16T06:35:16Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-06-16T06:35:51Z makufiru: and also (cons 1 '()) gives me (mcons 1 '()) which is very confusing and not what the book says I should get, I thought I'd get (1) 2016-06-16T06:37:56Z makufiru: nevermind I'm an idiot, i realize now that it's treating (1 2 3) as 'do 1 with 2 and 3' and I need to use '(1 2 3). Sorry! 2016-06-16T06:39:00Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2016-06-16T06:41:57Z bokr joined #scheme 2016-06-16T06:44:19Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-06-16T06:46:03Z bokr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-16T06:49:08Z civodul joined #scheme 2016-06-16T06:59:44Z galex-713: makufiru: yeah, that error often happen x) 2016-06-16T07:00:12Z makufiru: haha it was real confusing until i remembered quoting from clojure 2016-06-16T07:00:35Z galex-713: :) 2016-06-16T07:00:54Z galex-713: you can do (list 1 2 3) too for more readability 2016-06-16T07:01:16Z makufiru: side note, my plan was to go through "The little schemer" -> "How to design programs" -> "SICP". Does that sound sane to anyone? haha 2016-06-16T07:01:20Z galex-713: (yet longer to write and doesn’t work if you name a variable “list”) 2016-06-16T07:01:25Z makufiru: @galex-713 that is a lot more readable 2016-06-16T07:01:32Z galex-713: :) 2016-06-16T07:01:58Z galex-713: Oh didn’t know about the little schemer 2016-06-16T07:03:36Z makufiru: I kept seeing it everywhere as a recommended intro 2016-06-16T07:03:57Z galex-713: makufiru: did you buy it or found it gratis somewhere? (possibly translated in other languages?) 2016-06-16T07:04:33Z galex-713: (OMG 37$ for ebook O.o that’s completely insane) 2016-06-16T07:04:36Z makufiru: I bought it on amazon, it was only $30 2016-06-16T07:04:39Z robotoad joined #scheme 2016-06-16T07:04:52Z makufiru: haha I also bought "Lisp in small pieces" which was $72 for an ebook 2016-06-16T07:05:20Z galex-713: That’s theft 2016-06-16T07:05:43Z makufiru: i think the fact that they are used as textbooks is driving it up 2016-06-16T07:05:49Z galex-713: But well, buying book instead of piracing them is most of time theft 2016-06-16T07:06:07Z galex-713: Ah yeah, they have to ensure universities are paying for them 2016-06-16T07:06:12Z makufiru: not sure though. I needed it because I couldn't find a ton of great resources on writing scheme compilers 2016-06-16T07:06:20Z makufiru: *free resources 2016-06-16T07:06:41Z makufiru: and I have a (very long term) project of writing a "scheme-ish" to LLVM compiler 2016-06-16T07:06:45Z NaNDude joined #scheme 2016-06-16T07:07:23Z z0d: I also have "Lisp in small pieces" and while it's not a bad book, I don't think it's clearly written 2016-06-16T07:07:33Z makufiru: well it is translated from french haha 2016-06-16T07:07:36Z galex-713: makufiru: why not contributing to guile? they’re almost doing the same except it’s completely based on scheme and plan to implement native compilation soon 2016-06-16T07:07:58Z galex-713: french? cool wann’it! x) 2016-06-16T07:08:09Z z0d: makufiru: by an English literature teacher I think 2016-06-16T07:08:26Z galex-713: z0d: what’s the french title then? 2016-06-16T07:09:06Z makufiru: mostly I want more freedom for nice features like some borrowed from clojure and to not be held to RNRS 2016-06-16T07:09:15Z z0d: "Les Langages Lisp" 2016-06-16T07:09:23Z z0d: https://pages.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html 2016-06-16T07:09:29Z makufiru: Principes d'implantation de Scheme et Lisp 2016-06-16T07:09:41Z makufiru: oh sorry that's the revised version 2016-06-16T07:10:33Z z0d: at least I found it bothersome to read through 2016-06-16T07:10:42Z z0d: but maybe because of the translation 2016-06-16T07:10:44Z galex-713: makufiru: guile go way beyond rnrs/srfi and also implement apis of a lot of stuff + lot of other datatypes (also devs said me would be nice to implement more immutable datatypes to make more thread-safe structures, like Haskell or Clojure) 2016-06-16T07:10:52Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-06-16T07:11:07Z galex-713: makufiru: wait what is that? (I was asking for z0d’s book) 2016-06-16T07:11:44Z makufiru: galex-713: that's the revised version's title of 'Lisp in small pieces' in french 2016-06-16T07:11:59Z galex-713: ah ok 2016-06-16T07:12:09Z makufiru: galex-713: I guess, but I'm on windows and have heard/read Guile doesn't have great windows support 2016-06-16T07:12:17Z nowolfer joined #scheme 2016-06-16T07:12:22Z makufiru: also I need to implement my own concurrent garbage collector anyways 2016-06-16T07:12:40Z z0d: makufiru: you can use a VM 2016-06-16T07:12:44Z C-Keen: I can recommend the Jones/Lins book 2016-06-16T07:12:56Z galex-713: ah maybe (probably’d have to be fixed), does llvm have? 2016-06-16T07:13:03Z makufiru: z0d: I guess, but I want to build in good windows support for the language anyways 2016-06-16T07:13:17Z z0d: makufiru: I see 2016-06-16T07:13:21Z makufiru: LLVM does not offer a garbage collector but they do offer good support to help implement one 2016-06-16T07:13:22Z galex-713: windows support is not a bad thing, it can convince user to quit windows x) 2016-06-16T07:13:44Z makufiru: @galex-713 it is for game development, which is the point of creating the language 2016-06-16T07:14:10Z galex-713: (there are game engines in guile btw) 2016-06-16T07:14:31Z makufiru: the goal is to create a modern, powerful, scheme/lisp language with good platform support, compiled to native code, and a concurrent (non stop the world) garbage collector 2016-06-16T07:14:36Z galex-713: (featuring functional 2D/3D opengl game engines) 2016-06-16T07:14:57Z makufiru: specifically to bring to game development to rescue everyone from C++ land 2016-06-16T07:15:03Z galex-713: oh yeah please 2016-06-16T07:15:07Z galex-713: would be great 2016-06-16T07:15:30Z galex-713: makufiru: if you succeed would be interesting of discussing it with more people then making a standard then spreading it everywhere :p 2016-06-16T07:15:41Z makufiru: galex-713: that's the goal! 2016-06-16T07:15:53Z makufiru: I have like 3 years of free time ahead of me so I figure why not 2016-06-16T07:16:21Z galex-713: makufiru: if you do licence it under GPLv3 you could have the same implementation bound to llvm + guile, otherwise we would have to make another implementation (but, dunno, maybe there could be a purpose to that) 2016-06-16T07:16:33Z galex-713: makufiru: seems great :o 2016-06-16T07:17:01Z galex-713: I’d love to have 3 years of not-worrying-if-next-month-is-free-time-or-not 2016-06-16T07:17:05Z makufiru: I'm considering offering #lang support like in racket. but it seems like a big undertaking 2016-06-16T07:17:27Z galex-713: what is #lang? 2016-06-16T07:17:46Z makufiru: language definitions per file. So it could extend to RNRS support without too much trouble 2016-06-16T07:18:01Z makufiru: letting you use all the scheme libraries that most RNRS implementations would allow + whatever else 2016-06-16T07:18:09Z galex-713: ah yeah 2016-06-16T07:18:22Z galex-713: if you use rnrs as a base could certainly be used inside guile 2016-06-16T07:18:24Z makufiru: seems like a lot though and i'm not sure if it's necessary yet 2016-06-16T07:18:41Z galex-713: guile has full compiler tower and can implement several languages in a file per each 2016-06-16T07:18:46Z galex-713: (or several of course) 2016-06-16T07:18:58Z makufiru: right now I'm thinking I'll just rough out the compiler in the language, and bootstrap it inside racket 2016-06-16T07:19:03Z galex-713: Then just do the implementation with something and then figure out :) 2016-06-16T07:20:01Z galex-713: Since guile has still no native compilation support and I suppose you don’t have skills to contributing implementing that (I neither) for working the idea llvm seems to be the right idea for now anyway x) 2016-06-16T07:20:28Z makufiru: i've gone through a few LLVM walkthroughs and it seems straightforward enough 2016-06-16T07:20:51Z makufiru: writing C, then compiling that to LLVM IR with clang, and reverse engineering the output has been a big boon as far as learning that 2016-06-16T07:20:51Z galex-713: cool 2016-06-16T07:21:14Z galex-713: ah? is llvm ir so simple? 2016-06-16T07:21:55Z galex-713: (I’d have to figure out differences between llvm’s ir, guile’s tree ill, jvm/C#’s bytecodes, so I learn how each of them do their stuff) 2016-06-16T07:21:57Z makufiru: originally I was working on this project and porting it to .NET but I realized literally all of the C# libraries I'd want to use will be tightly wrapped inside of OOP since C# uses that as such a strong paradigm 2016-06-16T07:22:14Z galex-713: yeah 2016-06-16T07:22:24Z galex-713: It’s like the M$ Java 2016-06-16T07:22:35Z makufiru: I wouldn't say it's simple, but after reading a lot of .NET CIL and doing some emulator stuff, it's straightforward enough. Seems pretty close to RISC instructions in a way 2016-06-16T07:23:02Z galex-713: ah cool 2016-06-16T07:23:25Z makufiru: Yeah and that's one of the big reasons for not just using clojure is all of the java libraries are so tightly coupled. And java ARM support is screwed now that M$oft killed RoboVM 2016-06-16T07:24:03Z galex-713: I was wondering “wouldn’t be great to having all compilers compiling all languages to all of jvm/cil/llvm-ir/guile-till which would all compile to assembly 2016-06-16T07:24:30Z makufiru: that, and clojure makes a few decisions that I'd like to change without worrying about maintaining a fork. Plus their contribution guidelines are pretty intense. I understand why though 2016-06-16T07:24:31Z galex-713: gcc already can compile jvm to native code, llvm-ir is made for that, guile plans to do that… does a such thing exist for cil? 2016-06-16T07:25:21Z makufiru: there's .NET native.. but it doesn't support all of the F# generated CIL, and only those instructions contain support for tail call stuff, so pretty screwed there 2016-06-16T07:25:24Z galex-713: (yet the problem is you would have to make bindings for cil/jvm if it’s too much linked to .NET/java classes) 2016-06-16T07:25:35Z galex-713: ah ok 2016-06-16T07:26:07Z makufiru: yeah seems like doing C FFI in LLVM is pretty good, plus you have the benefit of being able to use Clang to compile all the C libs you're linking 2016-06-16T07:26:19Z galex-713: the “problem” with guile is everybody is getting fun 2016-06-16T07:27:42Z galex-713: so you get wtf stuff like everything written in scheme (even the interpreter and the compiler) without having yet native compilation support (that would avoid a C library interpreting bytecode of the scheme interpreter that interpret your scheme) 2016-06-16T07:28:07Z bokr joined #scheme 2016-06-16T07:29:08Z makufiru: I'm a little lost lol 2016-06-16T07:30:18Z makufiru: oh guile just compiles to guile vm code which is a guile runtime created in guile? haha 2016-06-16T07:30:25Z galex-713: yeah 2016-06-16T07:30:32Z galex-713: guile is almost completely written in guile 2016-06-16T07:31:13Z makufiru: that's nice though at least. also what I'm aiming for. It's so frustrating to find implementations targetting LLVM but they are written in 1/3rd scheme, 1/3rd Scala, and 1/3rd C++ for example 2016-06-16T07:31:31Z makufiru: or Chez scheme which is super fast but the project is so messy and all over the place IMO 2016-06-16T07:31:32Z galex-713: what? O.o 2016-06-16T07:31:42Z galex-713: do that exist? people implementing a language with 3 languages? 2016-06-16T07:31:48Z makufiru: https://github.com/etaoins/llambda 2016-06-16T07:32:29Z makufiru: it's actually 50% scala, 30% C++ and 15% scheme, and it compiles to LLVM which is almost another language itself lol 2016-06-16T07:32:37Z galex-713: it’s a complete nonsense 2016-06-16T07:32:41Z makufiru: exactly 2016-06-16T07:32:58Z galex-713: I hope they are least get paid or get fun, otherwise it’s sad 2016-06-16T07:33:12Z galex-713: *they at least 2016-06-16T07:33:18Z makufiru: how do you expect people to want to contribute to your efforts when you're just using whatever language feels best that day. (don't get me wrong, not trying to hate, it's amazing that they are as far as they are) 2016-06-16T07:34:06Z makufiru: that's another problem with clojure, that so much of the project itself is in Java 2016-06-16T07:34:43Z galex-713: well, the problem is not changing languages, it’s using garbage languages, or too different languages 2016-06-16T07:35:16Z makufiru: yeah 2016-06-16T07:35:18Z galex-713: the whole point of lisp is continually changing and extending your language, but other languages require a much higher learning curve (and if they don’t they’re usually worthless) 2016-06-16T07:36:19Z makufiru: I think I could convince people to use a lisp/scheme if it was clean and straightforward enough. I might even be able to convince them to contribute if the language is implemented in itself. But not if you also have to know 1-3 other languages just to understand the ins and outs of the system 2016-06-16T07:36:45Z galex-713: what do you mean by clean? it can has a lot of meaning 2016-06-16T07:37:00Z makufiru: easy to understand what is happening and why 2016-06-16T07:37:10Z galex-713: (and I *personally* don’t see why scheme isn’t clean/straightforward, so it’s probably subjective at all) 2016-06-16T07:37:43Z makufiru: not like "oh yeah that's a problem because the make file executes this command on an x86 system, which calls into this C++ code which needs to be compiled with this toolchain, etc etc" 2016-06-16T07:37:53Z galex-713: Ah eh, isn’t “you do (fun arg arg arg ...) and everything resume to that” enough? x) 2016-06-16T07:38:15Z galex-713: makufiru: how can that kind of issues be related to scheme O.o 2016-06-16T07:38:18Z galex-713: *? 2016-06-16T07:38:44Z makufiru: I guess. Vector literals, :keywords, and immutable data structures are all nice things that clojure does right IMO 2016-06-16T07:38:55Z makufiru: Oh I was talking more about the implementation than the language 2016-06-16T07:39:01Z galex-713: ah 2016-06-16T07:39:03Z galex-713: yeah 2016-06-16T07:39:22Z makufiru: A lot of people I know won't use a language if they don't think they can fix bugs that arise in the language. 2016-06-16T07:39:52Z galex-713: personally I think we should send a lot of people inside guile to make it simple&kiss&intuitive implementation to understand and implement native compilation and end doing a whole OS with it 2016-06-16T07:40:04Z makufiru: that would be pretty cool 2016-06-16T07:40:12Z makufiru: you'd need good memory management for that to happen though IMO 2016-06-16T07:40:14Z galex-713: (and we’re not that far, guile already has binding for a lot of internet protocols, + GNUnet, + a whole software distribution) 2016-06-16T07:40:20Z makufiru: stop the world garbage collection wouldn't be efficient 2016-06-16T07:40:37Z galex-713: yeah, you would have to do some kind of superlow level lisp 2016-06-16T07:40:48Z makufiru: I don't know if that works though haha 2016-06-16T07:40:53Z galex-713: But I know someone who is working on that: https://www.gnu.org/s/epsilon 2016-06-16T07:41:00Z makufiru: most of the power of lisp is the freedom of abstraction 2016-06-16T07:41:38Z galex-713: Yet that’s still research, but it already implement native compilation, and author plans to do better job than ocaml (who do better than ghc/haskell, that is better than everything existing except gcc then llvm) 2016-06-16T07:41:42Z makufiru: wow epsilon seems to share a lot of the same goals for the language that I was thinking of 2016-06-16T07:42:23Z makufiru: "Programming languages should be designed to be growable by users, built upon a very small kernel language and a set of syntactic abstraction features aiming at rewriting complex programs into a combination of simple forms which are easy to analyse, reason upon and implement, according to a user-supplied specification directing syntax, control, static 2016-06-16T07:42:23Z makufiru: analysis and optimization. " that sounds great to me 2016-06-16T07:42:48Z galex-713: Are you bored by long compsci papers? 2016-06-16T07:43:03Z makufiru: lol i've read like 30 in the past week; so no 2016-06-16T07:43:20Z galex-713: http://ageinghacker.net/publications/luca-saiu--phd-thesis-color.pdf 2016-06-16T07:43:28Z galex-713: He wrote his thesis on it :) 2016-06-16T07:43:48Z galex-713: And is still working on it (that makes it quite unstable but as well exciting) 2016-06-16T07:44:28Z makufiru: I thought it was in french for a moment and I was going to be sad 2016-06-16T07:44:48Z galex-713: oh no 2016-06-16T07:45:19Z makufiru: side note, what's the big idea about all of the great scheme implementations coming from france? haha mainly talking about Gambit. 2016-06-16T07:46:43Z makufiru: "We formally develop a static analysis and prove 2016-06-16T07:46:43Z makufiru: a soundness property with respect to the dynamic semantics. 2016-06-16T07:46:43Z makufiru: We develop a parallel garbage collector suitable to multi-core machines to permit 2016-06-16T07:46:43Z makufiru: efficient execution of parallel programs." how do I get in touch with this man? sounds exactly like what I wanted to do haha 2016-06-16T07:47:04Z makufiru: galex-713: ^ 2016-06-16T07:49:10Z galex-713: as written to the first Epsilon webpage I given you the link: positron@gnu.org personally, but there’s a mailing-list epsilon-devel@gnu.org that you can subscribe through https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/epsilon-devel 2016-06-16T07:49:26Z galex-713: again: www.gnu.org/s/epsilon 2016-06-16T07:50:27Z makufiru: ah nice 2016-06-16T07:50:59Z makufiru: funny how people looking for languages to implement operating systems and languages to implement games cross paths so often 2016-06-16T07:51:12Z makufiru: C/C++ etc 2016-06-16T07:51:57Z galex-713: He’s more a language hacker than a system/kernel hacker (I am the one who is interested in that because I’m sad the Hurd doesn’t evolve), but he already implemented a simple (non graphical I think) game in epsilon 2016-06-16T07:52:02Z galex-713: Wait I search the paper 2016-06-16T07:57:23Z galex-713: makufiru: here: http://ageinghacker.net/scratch-friends/pushover.pdf 2016-06-16T07:58:37Z makufiru: galex-713: interesting. Thanks! I'm reading his tutorial on epsilon right now haha 2016-06-16T08:00:14Z galex-713: cool :) 2016-06-16T08:00:26Z galex-713: He also made talks on it 2016-06-16T08:01:28Z galex-713: makufiru: the pushover source is in the epsilon source tree he said me afaik 2016-06-16T08:02:05Z makufiru: oh good to know. man his process so far seems so similar to what i had planned haha 2016-06-16T08:02:17Z SirDayBa1 is now known as SirDayBat 2016-06-16T08:02:21Z makufiru: first bootstrapping the language in a small subset of itself (he's calling it e0) haha 2016-06-16T08:04:23Z makufiru: except as of this language his interpreter is in C which I'm hoping to avoid haha 2016-06-16T08:04:30Z makufiru: as of this article* i meant haha 2016-06-16T08:05:10Z raindev joined #scheme 2016-06-16T08:06:29Z makufiru: oh wait that's the runtime with garbage collector, not the interpreter 2016-06-16T08:06:55Z galex-713: makufiru: not anymore 2016-06-16T08:07:04Z galex-713: makufiru: now epsilon is written in epsilon afaik 2016-06-16T08:07:18Z galex-713: makufiru: it used to depend on guile but he bootstraped it 2016-06-16T08:07:22Z makufiru: oh yeah this was 2013 2016-06-16T08:07:39Z makufiru: I'm assuming the garbage collector is still in C though? haha 2016-06-16T08:07:40Z galex-713: now it compile to x86 and comodore64 (his first computer) 2016-06-16T08:07:54Z galex-713: Don’t know, that wouldn’t surprise me if it were in epsilon 2016-06-16T08:08:14Z galex-713: and if not he’s certainly willing to rewrite it in epsilon one day or another, so your help could be welcomed 2016-06-16T08:09:37Z makufiru: that'd be cool. I'm not sure exactly if epsilon is exactly what I'm looking for yet - I'd like to include a few more batteries and also target more platforms, plus leverage the optimizations of llvm. I'd have to think about it haha 2016-06-16T08:09:57Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-06-16T08:11:05Z galex-713: makufiru: for now it’s mainly a “research” project, but if you do concrete things with it maybe it could derive in interesting stuff :) and anyway if at some moment your goals and his derivates you can still use his codebase for your stuff since it’s free software 2016-06-16T08:11:42Z galex-713: (FSF helped to do so, otherwise it would have been proprietary software under his university copyright that would have die) 2016-06-16T08:11:47Z galex-713: *died 2016-06-16T08:12:29Z makufiru: for the most part. I'm still trying to implement as much of the code myself as I can. A) to not be prohibited to change licenses, and B) so I have a good understand of the implementation haha 2016-06-16T08:14:28Z galex-713: I completely understand B and find it quite sane :) 2016-06-16T08:14:56Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-06-16T08:16:04Z galex-713: Personally I find GPLv3 has been largely well designed enough, it protects against any possible freedom troubleshooting PLUS if you lack money you can get free help from FSF lawyers to defend yourself even in front of big companies like M$, Apple, Oracle, etc. (while otherwise you’re quite desharmed in front of them unless you’re a rich milionnaire) 2016-06-16T08:17:47Z nowolfer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-16T08:18:26Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-16T08:21:31Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-06-16T08:21:35Z nowolfer joined #scheme 2016-06-16T08:22:54Z makufiru: if I have to be completely honest I'm more worried about something like building a game engine or compiler with the language and running into headaches licensing that, since it may or may not contain its own implementation or subset of the language 2016-06-16T08:24:05Z makufiru: Since I'm going to be implementing the language myself, I'm way more concerned (for instance) with being bought by M$ than sued by them. Haha 2016-06-16T08:29:25Z wasamasa: delusional much? 2016-06-16T08:30:31Z makufiru: yeah 2016-06-16T08:30:43Z galex-713: makufiru: yeah but if you’re bought you stay free software with GPL :p or if they hire you and you keep working on it while they don’t buy it but later claim it is their because you’re their employee (they have right to do that) you keep it free software through that too 2016-06-16T08:31:25Z makufiru: wasamasa: I know it's a lofty goal, but even the Xamarin people were just people solving a problem at one point, and they're an example of being bought by M$ 2016-06-16T08:32:04Z makufiru: galex-713: yeah that's a good point! haha 2016-06-16T08:32:36Z z0d: makufiru: you can always turn down an offer 2016-06-16T08:32:56Z makufiru: z0d: not if you want to get paid eh? ;) 2016-06-16T08:33:18Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-06-16T08:34:22Z cemerick joined #scheme 2016-06-16T08:34:33Z makufiru: Don't get me wrong, I love free software and the goal is to make something free and usable by anyone, but I don't think being wary of where you source code and the licenses that might restrict you to is such a bad/ignorant thing 2016-06-16T08:36:47Z przl joined #scheme 2016-06-16T08:37:30Z z0d: makufiru: I though you're worried about being bought up by M$. maybe I misunderstood that statement 2016-06-16T08:38:24Z makufiru: I meant to say - I'm putting less thought to them suing me (since I'm avoiding licenses) and putting more thought into putting myself in a good position to sell if I need to 2016-06-16T08:39:12Z wasamasa: makufiru: I take that as a yes :P 2016-06-16T08:39:34Z makufiru: @wasamasa that I'm delusional? Probably. I've always had lofty goals haha 2016-06-16T08:39:48Z wasamasa: makufiru: after all, it's a team of highly skilled software developers whereas you are still daydreaming about achieving something comparable yourself in a few years 2016-06-16T08:40:41Z makufiru: wasamasa: “The secret to getting ahead is getting started.” 2016-06-16T08:40:44Z wasamasa: in reality, nearly all opensource projects are a one man show and eventually rot away 2016-06-16T08:42:03Z makufiru: wasamasa: I agree with that. I don't think that you should limit yourself based on other's attempts or failures though 2016-06-16T08:42:39Z wasamasa: worse, if more people become involved, good luck managing them :P 2016-06-16T08:43:01Z wasamasa: my successes with that were so-so 2016-06-16T08:43:07Z makufiru: If there's been a common thread in my professional career, it's been that I've tried and succeeded where someone else was trying and failing. So far I'd probably be awarded 0 points for originality 2016-06-16T08:43:15Z wasamasa: that's ok 2016-06-16T08:43:34Z wasamasa: after all, there's tons of businesses not exactly excelling in the originality department 2016-06-16T08:44:32Z makufiru: yeah, lots of writing about how all human invention is really just inspiration and new combinations haha 2016-06-16T08:46:16Z wasamasa: as it's scheme we're talking about, it would be a bad idea to not reuse or even improve an existing implementation 2016-06-16T08:47:04Z makufiru: that was a question I originally had - the case for using LLVM is so strong though 2016-06-16T08:47:39Z wasamasa: I have to admit that I wouldn't have thought of guile as candidate for that though 2016-06-16T08:47:39Z makufiru: not having to write my own optimizations, not having to target other platforms myself, good support for building a C FFI system, etc 2016-06-16T08:48:15Z wasamasa: there's also been some discussions on the chicken-hackers mailing list whether it wouldn't be a better idea to move to LLVM as target 2016-06-16T08:48:28Z wasamasa: but then they'd reduce their portability 2016-06-16T08:48:46Z makufiru: well, there's also the fact that I dislike a lot of the choices made in Scheme. I'm pretty picky.. haha 2016-06-16T08:49:07Z makufiru: not to say they aren't the right answers - perhaps just not the answers I would have chosen 2016-06-16T08:50:26Z raindev quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-06-16T08:51:12Z wasamasa: makes you wonder why scheme for that domain then 2016-06-16T08:51:40Z wasamasa: if you want something lispish, but closer to the hardware, you might go the full way and pick forth 2016-06-16T08:52:49Z makufiru: that's a good question and one I haven't explored. I do like the premise of scheme/lisp. I even enjoy all the parentheses as syntactic delimiters. 2016-06-16T08:53:38Z wasamasa: I found http://pelulamu.net/ibniz/ a fascinating example 2016-06-16T08:53:39Z makufiru: mainly i like the power that building up abstractions with a very light syntax that scheme gives you. I'm not sure if that's achievable in forth 2016-06-16T08:53:52Z wasamasa: forth got no syntax :D 2016-06-16T08:53:57Z wasamasa: it's just words 2016-06-16T08:54:05Z wasamasa: and in ibniz case, it's just letters 2016-06-16T08:54:14Z makufiru: ah my friend has talked about ibniz before he's way into demoscene 2016-06-16T08:54:19Z wasamasa: "Mainsteam software engineering aspects are considered totally irrelevant." 2016-06-16T08:55:13Z makufiru: also thanks, that video scared the pants off of me 2016-06-16T08:55:38Z makufiru: luckily i had my volume at 100% at 3 AM. haha 2016-06-16T08:56:23Z makufiru: that example might be a little *too* light on syntax 2016-06-16T08:57:30Z raindev joined #scheme 2016-06-16T08:57:38Z wasamasa: my main problem with forth is its position regarding abstraction/refactoring 2016-06-16T09:01:04Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-16T09:01:04Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-06-16T09:07:23Z z0d: I like Factor 2016-06-16T09:07:34Z z0d: although it's more high-level than Forth 2016-06-16T09:08:36Z shdeng joined #scheme 2016-06-16T09:08:56Z shdeng quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-06-16T09:09:29Z shdeng joined #scheme 2016-06-16T09:09:49Z leot quit (Quit: BBIAB) 2016-06-16T09:12:27Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2016-06-16T09:23:02Z makufiru: garbage collection in general makes me sad. Ideally i'd like to implement something along the lines of Java's G1 garbage collector, but it's patented. And literature for similar garbage collectors is almost nowhere in sight 2016-06-16T09:23:37Z galex-713: makufiru: anyway if you heard about how MS manage software development, you’d understand “being bought” as “getting money in exchange of throwing away your software to the trash”, and if they even had the idea of trying to use your software and hiring you, it would be a damn nightmare (they have economical interests that makes them stand by on old and broken stuff and adding even 2016-06-16T09:23:37Z galex-713: more complex stuff on the top of that) 2016-06-16T09:24:10Z wasamasa: makufiru: are you speaking of something like http://www.azulsystems.com/sites/default/files/images/c4_paper_acm.pdf ? 2016-06-16T09:24:22Z makufiru: Yeah... I'm definitely not trying to build something with the hopes of being bought. I just don't hate the idea of it. :P 2016-06-16T09:25:02Z makufiru: wasamasa: yeah I've read that the G1 collector is very similar to the Azul GC 2016-06-16T09:25:15Z galex-713: yeah I understand it :p getting money is never a bad thing when you especially need it 2016-06-16T09:25:30Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-06-16T09:25:44Z galex-713: makufiru: wait, you’re in a country where software patents are valid? :o how bad! 2016-06-16T09:25:53Z wasamasa: funny how that paper mentions CHICKEN 2016-06-16T09:25:55Z makufiru: USA? I know it's pretty bad haha 2016-06-16T09:26:08Z galex-713: ? 2016-06-16T09:26:11Z wasamasa: considering that it does badly in benchmarks with code that taxes its GC 2016-06-16T09:26:15Z makufiru: wasamasa: does Chicken have a continuously compacting GC? 2016-06-16T09:26:49Z makufiru: galex-713: yeah software patents are valid in the U.S.... ? 2016-06-16T09:26:55Z wasamasa: let's just say that I have no idea how its GC can possibly work and that I haven't run into problems with it yet 2016-06-16T09:27:01Z wasamasa: maybe I need to write games or something 2016-06-16T09:27:07Z makufiru: writing games would do it 2016-06-16T09:27:09Z galex-713: oh no nothing I misread something 2016-06-16T09:27:18Z makufiru: less than 60 fps is not an option nowadays 2016-06-16T09:27:40Z wasamasa: currently the closest I've got was porting immediate mode gui toolkit examples 2016-06-16T09:27:56Z wasamasa: and I've only run into something looking like stack corruption... 2016-06-16T09:28:27Z galex-713: 60 fps? o.o (on my computer I run softwares at 15fps and consider myself happy) 2016-06-16T09:28:46Z makufiru: yeah 60fps is demanded of even the most simple 2d indie games 2016-06-16T09:28:58Z galex-713: why? 2016-06-16T09:29:15Z makufiru: because without it, games lose immersion and feel "glitchy and laggy" 2016-06-16T09:30:10Z galex-713: well I find 15~20 fps to be enough to be able to play, and above 30fps I find it useless 2016-06-16T09:30:52Z galex-713: any cognitive reaction required at above 30Hz precision shouldn’t be up to human brain 2016-06-16T09:30:53Z wasamasa: hm, maybe the paper is talking about something else 2016-06-16T09:31:08Z wasamasa: damn these people reusing names 2016-06-16T09:31:23Z makufiru: @galex-713 most people say that the human eye perceives 60fps, with some claiming they can perceive differences up to 120hz 2016-06-16T09:31:28Z galex-713: You know, people ability to make difference between 30Hz and 75Hz is only because they get use to higher refresh rate and their eyes adapt 2016-06-16T09:31:52Z wasamasa: makufiru: from what I can tell, it's a generational GC abusing the C stack for cleanup 2016-06-16T09:32:09Z galex-713: makufiru: that’s completely wrong, human eye perceive wtf it is used/optimized to perceive in everyday “work” (should “everyday” and “work” be videogames) 2016-06-16T09:32:17Z galex-713: That’s why some people see benefit in 4k 2016-06-16T09:32:53Z makufiru: wasamasa: that's pretty different to the G1 implementation then. It's a soft-real time GC that condenses parts of memory into sections, then makes predictions at how many of those sections it can collect in the time constraints that you give it. 2016-06-16T09:33:10Z galex-713: if we continue this path in 2 decades people will claim humain eye perceive 150Hz and 4k is not enough 2016-06-16T09:33:18Z wasamasa: which might explain why I'm having FFI issues here and there 2016-06-16T09:33:28Z makufiru: galex-713: all I know is that I enjoy TV a lot more at 4k and at 120hz. :P 2016-06-16T09:33:30Z wasamasa: makufiru: http://www.more-magic.net/posts/internals-gc.html 2016-06-16T09:35:56Z galex-713: makufiru: wait 2 decades and you will have more to pay :p (how the fuck can you aford a 4k TV :o) 2016-06-16T09:36:31Z makufiru: galex-713: I'm 23, single, and like I mentioned earlier have more dollars than sense lol 2016-06-16T09:36:52Z makufiru: comes with the territory of being a programmer I suppose 2016-06-16T09:47:39Z leot joined #scheme 2016-06-16T09:49:59Z Muir joined #scheme 2016-06-16T09:57:20Z nowolfer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-16T10:02:11Z bokr quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-06-16T10:03:05Z bokr joined #scheme 2016-06-16T10:06:20Z noethics quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-16T10:07:19Z galex-713: makufiru: most of programers I know doesn’t have so much :/ (then of course it depends to your tolerence towards your employers, since most of people I know can’t stand their boss, and I understand why) 2016-06-16T10:08:25Z makufiru: Yeah I consider myself very lucky. I also live in an area where it's pretty common. I'd talk more but I'm off to sleep as its past 4 am here. 2016-06-16T10:09:35Z galex-713: oh I see, I’m going to do the same soon anymore, it’s 12pm but I usually sleep the day 2016-06-16T10:14:43Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-06-16T10:30:35Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-06-16T10:36:41Z raindev quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-16T10:45:07Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-16T10:51:29Z raindev joined #scheme 2016-06-16T11:06:27Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-06-16T11:11:37Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-06-16T16:02:31Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-16T16:04:32Z nowolfer: Are there game server are using scheme? 2016-06-16T16:05:11Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-06-16T16:05:53Z alezost quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-16T16:07:48Z jlongste_ joined #scheme 2016-06-16T16:08:05Z jlongste_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-06-16T16:10:15Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-06-16T16:10:25Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-06-16T16:10:46Z jlongster quit (Client Quit) 2016-06-16T16:17:15Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-16T16:17:28Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2016-06-16T16:19:27Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-16T16:27:14Z benaiah` is now known as benaiah 2016-06-16T16:29:53Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-06-16T16:31:56Z wasamasa: nowolfer: you'll never know unless someone considers it enough of an advantage to advertise it 2016-06-16T16:32:25Z wasamasa: nowolfer: personally, I suspect it's whatever works for the team in question, so, anything 2016-06-16T16:32:29Z wasamasa: nowolfer: even PHP goes 2016-06-16T16:32:41Z magneticduck considers using scheme for scriting in a multiplayer game 2016-06-16T16:33:04Z magneticduck: I wonder if guile scheme is much faster than Lua 2016-06-16T16:33:09Z stepnem joined #scheme 2016-06-16T16:33:16Z magneticduck: s/much faster/much slower 2016-06-16T16:33:27Z wasamasa: hm, I remember a github repo pitting a bunch of in-game scripting solutions against each other 2016-06-16T16:33:50Z moredhel quit (Quit: byee) 2016-06-16T16:33:59Z wasamasa: https://github.com/r-lyeh/scriptorium 2016-06-16T16:34:05Z wasamasa: no guile there 2016-06-16T16:34:42Z magneticduck: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3223592/embedded-language-lua-vs-common-lisp-ecl suggests I'm not insane in considering guile scheme 2016-06-16T16:34:42Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/lldhy6oEZF 2016-06-16T16:34:47Z magneticduck: I haven't looked into gambit-C, hmmm 2016-06-16T16:34:57Z moredhel joined #scheme 2016-06-16T16:35:34Z leot quit (Quit: BBL) 2016-06-16T16:37:43Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-06-16T16:38:35Z wasamasa: lol: https://github.com/r-lyeh/scriptorium/issues/2 2016-06-16T16:38:54Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-06-16T16:41:28Z wasamasa: some people are truly delusional 2016-06-16T16:41:47Z wasamasa: it appears as if the lisp language family keeps attracting them 2016-06-16T16:44:19Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-06-16T16:44:27Z jackdaniel: wasamasa: what do you mean by "cherry-picking the features you specifically need to have" in ECL? 2016-06-16T16:44:54Z wasamasa: jackdaniel: compiling it with a smaller featureset to slim its size down 2016-06-16T16:45:05Z wasamasa: jackdaniel: after all, we're speaking of stuff that can be embedded into a game 2016-06-16T16:45:18Z wasamasa: jackdaniel: it would be slightly ridiculous if the embedded interpreter is larger than the game itself 2016-06-16T16:45:50Z jackdaniel: ECL is pretty small (libecl ~ 11M, all contribs for library 30M) 2016-06-16T16:46:06Z wasamasa: ... 2016-06-16T16:46:13Z wasamasa: I rest my case 2016-06-16T16:46:15Z jackdaniel: keep in mind its a shared library 2016-06-16T16:47:50Z jackdaniel: stripped it takes 8M (library and contribs) with linked trivial hello-world having 40KB 2016-06-16T16:53:42Z jao joined #scheme 2016-06-16T16:54:25Z zacts joined #scheme 2016-06-16T17:04:05Z acarrico joined #scheme 2016-06-16T17:05:54Z magneticduck: I wonder if there's a C++ binding for chibi scheme 2016-06-16T17:08:31Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-06-16T17:08:34Z wasamasa: is there a need for it? 2016-06-16T17:08:53Z wasamasa: as long as they haven't specially made sure it won't compile in C++ mode... 2016-06-16T17:09:35Z magneticduck: heh, I like my nice interfaces 2016-06-16T17:09:48Z wasamasa: fair enough 2016-06-16T17:10:09Z magneticduck: gambit also looks interesting 2016-06-16T17:10:16Z magneticduck: looks pretty darn fast too 2016-06-16T17:10:21Z wasamasa still can't believe a C++ version of an immediate gui toolkit is half as big as the C version 2016-06-16T17:10:49Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-16T17:10:51Z magneticduck: I'm going to be using scripting for fairly light game mechanics, executed on server-side of a multiplayer game 2016-06-16T17:11:18Z magneticduck: I'm not really sure how much I'll pay for bad performance 2016-06-16T17:12:58Z jackdaniel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xti9kU1z30E (wip – xelf game engine on android using ecl:) 2016-06-16T17:17:33Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-06-16T18:33:08Z nowolfer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-16T18:40:40Z teurastaja joined #scheme 2016-06-16T18:41:38Z teurastaja: i want to see cutting edge research in scheme. is there anything worth checking? 2016-06-16T18:43:38Z noethics: teurastaja, nanopass perhaps? 2016-06-16T18:43:54Z gwatt: teurastaja: probably depends on what you're interested in. 2016-06-16T18:44:25Z teurastaja: artificial intelligence, security, embedded systems, etc 2016-06-16T18:44:42Z teurastaja: science in general 2016-06-16T18:45:08Z noethics: teurastaja, are you asking for things done in scheme or what? 2016-06-16T18:45:45Z teurastaja: yeah preferably 2016-06-16T18:49:23Z teurastaja: i became desillusioned about compiler writing since ive stumbled upon a 8051 2016-06-16T18:50:51Z teurastaja: i mean... what can you do with 30kB SRAM? 2016-06-16T18:51:27Z pjb: quite a lot actually. 2016-06-16T18:53:23Z TheLemonMan joined #scheme 2016-06-16T18:54:57Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2016-06-16T18:55:07Z n_blownapart: hi this is a response to Google Exec. Peter Norvig’s comments about SICP. I’m going through the book now with only a little Ruby / Rails knowledge. It’s been tough. I’m very curious .. : 2016-06-16T18:55:16Z n_blownapart: please read this response to general praise of the book and give your opinion. I hope it is appropriate for the channel. https://paste.ee/p/oLpMq 2016-06-16T18:56:01Z n_blownapart: the full blog is linked at the top. 2016-06-16T19:00:05Z lritter joined #scheme 2016-06-16T19:00:52Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2016-06-16T19:02:48Z wasamasa: I'll not take that bait 2016-06-16T19:02:48Z fadein quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-16T19:02:56Z renopt_: teurastaja: this will be coming up soon-ish, should have some interesting things http://scheme2016.snow-fort.org/ 2016-06-16T19:03:20Z renopt_ is now known as renopt 2016-06-16T19:03:36Z renopt quit (Changing host) 2016-06-16T19:03:36Z renopt joined #scheme 2016-06-16T19:04:31Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-06-16T19:04:54Z n_blownapart: please just say yay or nay on sicp for a relative beginner to programming wasamasa. It seems I need everything explained to me so far. 2016-06-16T19:05:26Z wasamasa: what I can say though is that the summary is highly misleading 2016-06-16T19:05:40Z n_blownapart: the OP summary or the response ? 2016-06-16T19:05:45Z teurastaja: n_blownapart: are you asking us to read a blog then explain everything to you?\ 2016-06-16T19:05:55Z wasamasa: the linked review is much less inflammatory 2016-06-16T19:06:29Z n_blownapart: no I mentioned it was in response to general praise. wasamasa 2016-06-16T19:06:34Z n_blownapart: teurastaja: no not at all 2016-06-16T19:06:37Z wasamasa: ... 2016-06-16T19:07:49Z n_blownapart: I've never taken a cs course. I did a Rails tutorial once that took a bloody year. 2016-06-16T19:07:50Z wasamasa: I'll stick to my opinion that the pastebinned commentary to norvig's review is bait :P 2016-06-16T19:08:24Z wasamasa: I'd rather not waste time on taking it apart 2016-06-16T19:08:39Z n_blownapart: believe me, I am in no position to judge to the merits of either the OP 's comments or the response. 2016-06-16T19:09:44Z teurastaja: that review seems biased 2016-06-16T19:09:48Z renopt: if that's true, then how can you judge our opinions of it? 2016-06-16T19:09:51Z wasamasa: good, then you can carry on with life 2016-06-16T19:10:03Z wasamasa: ^ 2016-06-16T19:10:23Z n_blownapart: Not everything needs to be clever. 2016-06-16T19:10:38Z teurastaja: SICP was written with a R4RS or earlier, of course its outdated! 2016-06-16T19:10:54Z n_blownapart: Sorry , you misunderstand my queries. 2016-06-16T19:11:04Z n_blownapart: or the intention anyway 2016-06-16T19:11:37Z teurastaja: n_blownapart: if you want to learn functional programming, theres one language: haskell 2016-06-16T19:11:53Z teurastaja: scheme is for my projects 2016-06-16T19:12:05Z teurastaja: because its easy to write 2016-06-16T19:12:17Z n_blownapart: teurastaja: thanks , seriously. 2016-06-16T19:12:31Z z0d: you can use MIT Scheme for SICP 2016-06-16T19:12:44Z wasamasa: why don't you read the first chapter of SICP and decide how accessible you find it? 2016-06-16T19:12:58Z n_blownapart: I forewent a haskell meetup group to stick with the sicp. now I wonder 2016-06-16T19:13:11Z z0d: n_blownapart: SICP is not really about programming, but about computer science 2016-06-16T19:13:26Z teurastaja: n_blownapart: why dont you just find a project and write it in scheme instead if you want to improve your general programming skills? 2016-06-16T19:13:30Z wasamasa: granted, it's boring compared to the rest because it focuses on math problems 2016-06-16T19:13:53Z wasamasa: if yes, there's plenty of alternatives available 2016-06-16T19:14:26Z teurastaja: n_blownapart: want to read code that does real stuff? 2016-06-16T19:14:55Z n_blownapart: z0d: thanks, I've read a lot about the book in reviews. teurastaja I really do want to learn fundamentals, but maybe the timing is wrong. 2016-06-16T19:15:08Z z0d: n_blownapart: it's a good book though 2016-06-16T19:15:30Z teurastaja: n_blownapart: find a project and write it. the only way to learn 2016-06-16T19:15:48Z wasamasa: mhh 2016-06-16T19:16:03Z wasamasa: I've read about people who believe in writing irc bots every time they learn a language 2016-06-16T19:16:14Z z0d: heh 2016-06-16T19:16:25Z wasamasa: as it's above beginner level and involves quite a bit of plumbing to work well 2016-06-16T19:16:28Z z0d: well, that has sockets, I/O so 2016-06-16T19:16:33Z z0d: yep 2016-06-16T19:16:43Z n_blownapart: I wanted to learn the y-combinator, lambda calculus etc. Also work on math. but if I stick with sicp, you might hear from me again. 2016-06-16T19:16:58Z wasamasa: you'll need to learn how to do networking, study the IRC protocol, do light parsing, react to input, etc. 2016-06-16T19:17:13Z z0d: well, the IRC protocol is a bit weird 2016-06-16T19:17:18Z wasamasa: it gives you a good idea how usable the language is 2016-06-16T19:17:20Z z0d: and every IRC network has their own stuff 2016-06-16T19:17:30Z n_blownapart: what do you mean the IRC protocol ? 2016-06-16T19:17:51Z wasamasa: elisp is apparently good enough for like half a dozen IRC clients to exist, half of which has been successfully used to implement bots 2016-06-16T19:18:06Z robotoad joined #scheme 2016-06-16T19:18:29Z ijp: a year or two ago ircbots were the fashionable project on #guile 2016-06-16T19:18:48Z teurastaja: n_blownapart: read this if you can. itll bring you insights: http://pastebin.com/8H2vvB0q 2016-06-16T19:19:07Z n_blownapart: thanks teurastaja , everyone 2016-06-16T19:19:43Z n_blownapart: but what is IRC protocol ? like , good manners? :) seriously I don't know what it is. 2016-06-16T19:19:58Z wasamasa: it's conventions how IRC clients interact with IRC servers 2016-06-16T19:20:10Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-06-16T19:20:12Z gwatt: n_blownapart: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2812 2016-06-16T19:20:18Z wasamasa: there are several documents on the details available online 2016-06-16T19:20:25Z z0d: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2812 2016-06-16T19:20:28Z z0d: oops 2016-06-16T19:21:38Z z0d: n_blownapart: we're chatting on IRC right now 2016-06-16T19:22:08Z n_blownapart: here's the thing. I do want gainful employment as a programmer some day, hopefully soon. I was under the perception that sicp / scheme would give me a big advantage generally. z0d I know, and my manners are impeccible.! 2016-06-16T19:22:18Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-06-16T19:22:18Z wasamasa: lol 2016-06-16T19:22:37Z wasamasa: it's more like rules anyways 2016-06-16T19:23:28Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-06-16T19:24:44Z teurastaja: n_blownapart: you can read, but the real learning happens when you hack your own stuff 2016-06-16T19:24:59Z n_blownapart: thanks, I really appreciate it everyone.. I'm taking remedial math over the summer. I'll just chip away at sicp. how hard could it be? 2016-06-16T19:25:33Z n_blownapart: teurastaja: word. I just don't have my 'own stuff' 2016-06-16T19:25:52Z teurastaja: n_blownapart: i suggest you just download the pdf from r7rs.org 2016-06-16T19:26:23Z teurastaja: its 50 pages i think and describes the whole language. easy read for a reference document 2016-06-16T19:26:32Z n_blownapart: teurastaja: in lieu of sicp? 2016-06-16T19:26:39Z wasamasa: n_blownapart: think of a protocol as a language that can be spoken by software/hardware 2016-06-16T19:26:53Z z0d: a reference is not a good way to learn a language 2016-06-16T19:26:54Z n_blownapart: excellent will do 2016-06-16T19:27:05Z teurastaja: yes you could skip sicp. i only began to read it then fell asleep 2016-06-16T19:27:15Z n_blownapart: dang 2016-06-16T19:27:41Z teurastaja: you need more than just 1 source 2016-06-16T19:28:00Z n_blownapart: I own the little schemer. 2016-06-16T19:28:13Z n_blownapart: got through about 1/3 2016-06-16T19:28:15Z renopt: n_blownapart: what kind of programming experience do you already have? 2016-06-16T19:28:26Z teurastaja: write yourself a scheme compiler in 48 hours is an epic read if you want to learn haskell at the same time 2016-06-16T19:28:57Z n_blownapart: renopt: I did a ruby on rails tutorial with a lot of testing. It took a long time and I probably didn't understand much of it. I didn't like it. I like math. 2016-06-16T19:28:58Z ijp: learning two languages at once is also a bad idea 2016-06-16T19:28:59Z teurastaja: but the 48hs is a lie 2016-06-16T19:29:10Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-16T19:29:22Z n_blownapart: teurastaja: I read about that ! sounds very cool 2016-06-16T19:29:49Z z0d: teurastaja: it's not 2 days, but 48 hours spent on coding, right? 2016-06-16T19:29:52Z teurastaja: n_blownapart: you need guts to read it through 2016-06-16T19:30:07Z n_blownapart: 48 hrs teurastaja ? 2016-06-16T19:30:18Z teurastaja: not really 48hs 2016-06-16T19:30:22Z teurastaja: its a wikibook 2016-06-16T19:30:35Z n_blownapart: ijp: two languages not a good idea? 2016-06-16T19:30:37Z teurastaja: i spent about a day or 2 per chapter 2016-06-16T19:30:46Z n_blownapart: I heard that , unless they are very unlike eachother. 2016-06-16T19:31:04Z n_blownapart: well I'll give myself 480 hrs 2016-06-16T19:31:13Z teurastaja: you need to feel comfortable at least a bit in one language to read it 2016-06-16T19:31:35Z ijp: you need to be able to know when your mistake is in one language or the other 2016-06-16T19:31:53Z n_blownapart: I did the sicp coin problem with help yesterday. It seems so convoluted. 2016-06-16T19:31:56Z teurastaja: but you end up solving the worlds biggest mysteries 2016-06-16T19:32:12Z noethics: learning haskell and scheme at the same time sounds terribad 2016-06-16T19:32:13Z ijp: n_blownapart: when you have a sorted list of coins, it looks more natural 2016-06-16T19:32:28Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-16T19:32:37Z n_blownapart: ijp please elaborate or paste. 2016-06-16T19:32:53Z noethics: they're different paradigms of functional programming, they even have very different models backing them in mathematics 2016-06-16T19:32:55Z ijp: SICP decided to wait till chapter 2 to explain lists, and many issues arise from that 2016-06-16T19:33:09Z groscoe joined #scheme 2016-06-16T19:34:47Z noethics: that said, there is definitely a relationship between the two models. just no one knows what it is :D 2016-06-16T19:35:07Z teurastaja: n_blownapart: real world problems: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Scheme 2016-06-16T19:35:34Z webshinra joined #scheme 2016-06-16T19:35:58Z benwbooth quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-06-16T19:37:00Z teurastaja: n_blownapart: http://practical-scheme.net/gauche/download.html 2016-06-16T19:37:19Z teurastaja: its the compiler i prefer but youre free to explore others 2016-06-16T19:38:17Z n_blownapart: ok well I'm glad I asked about the book. I did get lists from the little schemer's first 1/3 , somewhat anyway 2016-06-16T19:39:06Z n_blownapart: what about those teach-packs on DrRacket? 2016-06-16T19:39:23Z n_blownapart: I haven't tried it. no clue. 2016-06-16T19:39:48Z n_blownapart: *them 2016-06-16T19:39:50Z teurastaja: i personally dont use racket. its a compiler with a bunch of languages of its own 2016-06-16T19:40:04Z teurastaja: hardly portable unless that changed 2016-06-16T19:40:15Z webshinra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-16T19:40:17Z n_blownapart: hmm. the environment is nice... 2016-06-16T19:40:48Z n_blownapart: anyway I really appreciate the advice everyone. I think I have some more to chew on. 2016-06-16T19:41:06Z ijp: n_blownapart: http://shift-reset.com/pastes/count-change.scm.html 2016-06-16T19:41:11Z teurastaja: any honestly if the goal of scheme is to be minimalistic, racket fails horribly 2016-06-16T19:41:18Z ijp: dont' worry about it making too much sense till you get onto lists 2016-06-16T19:41:19Z n_blownapart: ijp thanks kindly ! 2016-06-16T19:41:30Z n_blownapart: word 2016-06-16T19:41:35Z zacts joined #scheme 2016-06-16T19:41:45Z teurastaja: but take everything we sasy with a grain of salt 2016-06-16T19:41:50Z teurastaja: *say 2016-06-16T19:41:55Z teurastaja: especially me :) 2016-06-16T19:42:20Z teurastaja: ijp is a guru out here 2016-06-16T19:42:34Z ijp: which should tell you how low the standards are 2016-06-16T19:42:41Z n_blownapart: I really appreciate it teurastaja et al. It is interesting. ijp is, really? s/he helped me the other day. 2016-06-16T19:43:26Z teurastaja: there are a few pillars in this channel and i think ijp is one 2016-06-16T19:43:57Z teurastaja: but hes not the only one :) 2016-06-16T19:43:58Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-16T19:44:31Z teurastaja: riastradh is nice to talk to also and a few others i forget 2016-06-16T19:44:48Z z0d: yeah, he is super knowledgable 2016-06-16T19:44:53Z n_blownapart: excellent , I appreciate all of it 2016-06-16T19:45:01Z ijp: if I'm a guru, riastradh is like a superguru 2016-06-16T19:45:31Z n_blownapart: yes, but I have impeccable manners. 2016-06-16T19:45:33Z teurastaja: ijp: you were there when i started learning scheme 2016-06-16T19:45:34Z jao joined #scheme 2016-06-16T19:45:54Z z0d also knows some other names, who don't usually talk, but are Scheme stars 2016-06-16T19:46:20Z ijp: making make-change not waste conses should be a straightforward calculation 2016-06-16T19:46:30Z n_blownapart: so, any other comments re: the 48 hrs book and *not* learning two languages at once? 2016-06-16T19:46:39Z teurastaja: ijp: just use streams? 2016-06-16T19:46:54Z ijp: but the double recursion means it isn't a straightforward fold 2016-06-16T19:47:34Z teurastaja: cant you use lazy lists?\ 2016-06-16T19:47:49Z ijp: of course you can, it just won't make much of a difference 2016-06-16T19:47:52Z teurastaja: n_blownapart: be more specific 2016-06-16T19:48:12Z teurastaja: ijp: dont know the nature of the problem though 2016-06-16T19:48:40Z ijp: doing it via dynamic programming isn't too hard 2016-06-16T19:49:10Z n_blownapart: teurastaja: it was suggested to try 48hr book.. some people said don't try to learn 2 lang s at once 2016-06-16T19:50:30Z noethics: do you want the simple answer :D 2016-06-16T19:50:53Z teurastaja: n_blownapart: ijp is right: you can try to start reading it then stop if you feel overwhelmed. the intro takes 10 minutes to read so you could try 2016-06-16T19:50:58Z noethics: that book is mainly for learning haskell, not scheme 2016-06-16T19:51:18Z strykerkkd joined #scheme 2016-06-16T19:51:32Z teurastaja: well actually you can learn both with that book 2016-06-16T19:51:46Z teurastaja: but obviously you need to want to learn haskell too 2016-06-16T19:52:16Z teurastaja: ijp: what are you working on?\ 2016-06-16T19:52:55Z teurastaja: ijp: how would you define matrix multiplication using only lists? 2016-06-16T19:53:16Z raindev joined #scheme 2016-06-16T19:53:24Z ijp: I'm not working on anything, just thinking aloud about how to improve the code I posted 2016-06-16T19:53:29Z raindev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-16T19:53:49Z teurastaja: ijp: can i see? and can you review mine? 2016-06-16T19:54:33Z ijp: http://shift-reset.com/pastes/count-change.scm.html 2016-06-16T19:54:41Z n_blownapart: does the coin-change problem have two 50 cent pieces as a solution for change of a dollar? Or is only one 50-cent piece allowed, given the convoluted way the question is asked? 2016-06-16T19:55:06Z ijp: you're allowed two 2016-06-16T19:55:07Z teurastaja: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sNWjG1ihOn4YA2tmNE7fLlDp7AMTwEzAwwV-aILtFVE 2016-06-16T19:55:08Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/cai70AuClR 2016-06-16T19:55:42Z ijp: we're using google docs for code now? 2016-06-16T19:55:51Z teurastaja: well i am lol 2016-06-16T19:56:04Z webshinra joined #scheme 2016-06-16T19:56:36Z n_blownapart: I will say, the English in sicp is bizarre, though even with a background in literature, maybe I am just stupid. 2016-06-16T19:57:49Z ijp: teurastaja: well, doing matrix multiplication with lists is kinda weird, but shouldn't be too bad 2016-06-16T19:57:51Z n_blownapart: ijp so somewhere in that massive output of trees, two 50-cent pieces make up one solution. 2016-06-16T19:58:21Z teurastaja: ijp: im using lists only for my neural network except for matrix multiplication 2016-06-16T19:58:29Z teurastaja: i want to change that 2016-06-16T19:59:08Z ijp: n_blownapart: right, if you look at the output from my (make-change 10 uk-coins), you'll see one line for solution that would be found 2016-06-16T19:59:45Z ijp: teurastaja: transpose + nested maps? 2016-06-16T20:01:17Z teurastaja: ijp: i did that but only for vector times matrix. could you show me? 2016-06-16T20:02:43Z civodul joined #scheme 2016-06-16T20:02:47Z TheLemonMan: using lists as backing store for a matrix might be a not-so-good idea performance-wise 2016-06-16T20:02:50Z n_blownapart: ijp thanks 2016-06-16T20:04:10Z wasamasa: TheLemonMan: thanks, captain obvious! 2016-06-16T20:04:28Z wasamasa: you've saved the world once again 2016-06-16T20:05:31Z TheLemonMan: :'( I'll go back to my corner 2016-06-16T20:05:47Z wasamasa: noo 2016-06-16T20:07:02Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-06-16T20:07:10Z ijp: teurastaja: http://shift-reset.com/pastes/matrix-mul.html 2016-06-16T20:07:12Z fadein joined #scheme 2016-06-16T20:08:00Z TheLemonMan: I'll correct myself, a linked list of possibly boxed floats 2016-06-16T20:08:05Z ijp: thelemonman: I assure you, there is nothing efficient about what I just wrote 2016-06-16T20:08:23Z samw3 left #scheme 2016-06-16T20:08:40Z alezost quit (Quit: I live in GuixSD and Emacs ) 2016-06-16T20:08:45Z ijp: you get an apply, and you get an apply! everyone in the channel gets an apply! 2016-06-16T20:08:50Z wasamasa: let's only use srfi-4 vectors for advanced maths 2016-06-16T20:09:30Z ijp: no idea what that import is doing there 2016-06-16T20:10:35Z wasamasa: that was the next thing I wanted to ask 2016-06-16T20:10:47Z TheLemonMan: let's store floats bit-by-bit in plain old lists! 2016-06-16T20:11:21Z teurastaja: ijp: thanks thats hot! 2016-06-16T20:12:15Z teurastaja: are you all talking about my code? 2016-06-16T20:13:03Z teurastaja: ijp just simplified my view of synapses 2016-06-16T20:25:22Z teurastaja quit (Quit: Quitte) 2016-06-16T20:26:44Z TheLemonMan quit (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 2016-06-16T20:31:40Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2016-06-16T20:35:16Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-06-16T20:36:55Z andrewvic quit (Quit: andrewvic) 2016-06-16T20:40:14Z bokr joined #scheme 2016-06-16T20:45:55Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-06-16T20:45:55Z mokuso quit (Changing host) 2016-06-16T20:45:55Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-06-16T20:59:57Z juanfra_ quit (Quit: juanfra_) 2016-06-16T21:00:33Z juanfra joined #scheme 2016-06-16T21:02:35Z ASau joined #scheme 2016-06-16T21:08:02Z bokr quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-06-16T21:18:49Z nilg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-16T21:24:55Z Opodeldoc joined #scheme 2016-06-16T21:25:15Z Opodeldoc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-16T21:26:10Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-06-16T21:32:51Z mokuso quit (Quit: too shit for this old) 2016-06-16T21:34:27Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-16T21:34:35Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-16T21:41:25Z davorb: actually, vectors might also be non-optimal for a lot of use cases. 2016-06-16T21:42:59Z davorb: storing a matrix in a list *can* be a better solution than just putting it in a vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparse_matrix#List_of_lists_.28LIL.29 2016-06-16T21:46:42Z noethics quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-06-16T21:50:27Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-06-16T21:58:11Z m1dnight_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-06-16T22:08:31Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-16T22:09:08Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-16T22:14:56Z jlongster joined #scheme 2016-06-16T22:22:21Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-16T22:37:07Z strykerkkd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-16T22:40:10Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-16T22:49:11Z groscoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-16T22:50:20Z jlongster quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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