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2016-06-15T00:26:06Z ijp: taylan: unregistered ones get an x- prefix
2016-06-15T00:26:28Z ijp: so you sometimes see text/x-scheme
2016-06-15T00:26:41Z dpk: ijp: even since RFC 6648?
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2016-06-15T00:28:21Z ijp: didn't know about that one *reads*
2016-06-15T00:30:14Z ijp: I see their point, but the recommendations are pretty vague
2016-06-15T00:31:57Z galex-713: I’m asking myself something… is ietf rough-consensus system sybil-attack-proof? what is needed to be part of ietf/to contribute to an rfc?
2016-06-15T00:32:38Z dpk: generally, a sensible idea and knowledge of the email address of the relevant mailing list
2016-06-15T00:34:10Z galex-713: dpk: are they hidden? O.o
2016-06-15T00:34:16Z dpk: no
2016-06-15T00:34:25Z galex-713: dpk: peer-communicated?
2016-06-15T00:34:40Z galex-713: with ietf mailing-list being small enough to be sybil-attack-proof?
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2016-06-15T00:35:28Z dpk: consensus means that the people 'in charge' of the spec (the chair of the relevant working group, the writers of the spec itself whose name appears in the top corner) are in general agreement with experts in the relevant field, whose credentials are known and have generally been proven through previous IETF work, that something is a good/bad idea
2016-06-15T00:35:42Z dpk: the WGs and their mailing lists are all listed here https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/
2016-06-15T00:37:24Z dpk: notably, consensus does not mean that if you pile on enough random apparently-different people in favour of something, that it necessarily will or will not happen
2016-06-15T00:38:30Z galex-713: dpk: are chairs designated by area directors? and who designate area directors/allow area creation? or is it static since internet creation?
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2016-06-15T00:39:02Z dpk: it's quite similar to the theory behind Wikipedia dispute resolution, except that on Wikipedia expertise isn't valued and anyone can participate anonymously, making the whole process worthless and basically equivalent to a vote; this is why Wikipedia bureaucracy is such an unmitigated disaster
2016-06-15T00:40:29Z galex-713: that is…?
2016-06-15T00:40:35Z dpk: good questions. i don't know. i think the answer to the first question is 'yes' (though it might just be a rubber-stamp approval); presumably if you have a proposal for a new area you can propose it at an IETF meeting or on a mailing list somewhere
2016-06-15T00:40:35Z galex-713: (sorry I don’t know well enough wikipedia)
2016-06-15T00:43:20Z galex-713: is it formal or unformal designation? -> “experts in the relevant field, whose credentials are known and have generally been proven through previous IETF work”
2016-06-15T00:43:50Z galex-713: if unformal, do disputes happens on that point?
2016-06-15T00:43:54Z galex-713: *happen
2016-06-15T00:44:44Z dpk: informal — there's no qualification process to participate in IETF discussions, as i said. you just send an email to the mailing list and people say what they think
2016-06-15T00:45:21Z dpk: i don't really think there's much dispute about whether someone is qualified or not to work on things. if you know what you're talking about, you know what you're talking about
2016-06-15T00:45:40Z dpk: the process and the organization itself are both obscure enough to be only accessible to experts anyway
2016-06-15T00:45:43Z galex-713: ok, so when a people express its disagreement but is not considered yet as “credited/proven expert” informally by other, what happens? chair decides?
2016-06-15T00:46:00Z galex-713: ah ok
2016-06-15T00:46:01Z dpk: essentially, yes
2016-06-15T00:46:32Z galex-713: so it’s basically a hierarchy where people with power are considered “open enough” in their field?
2016-06-15T00:47:15Z galex-713: dpk: ^
2016-06-15T00:48:16Z dpk: i don't quite understand the question, but the people who chair the committees and edit the specs do so because they're respected by their peers, who are generally the people who actually have to implement the technology they're specifying
2016-06-15T00:49:12Z galex-713: ok
2016-06-15T00:49:28Z galex-713: I am just interested in internet dev sociology :)
2016-06-15T00:49:33Z ijp: regulatory capture is a pretty decent explanation of why computing specs are where they are
2016-06-15T00:49:48Z dpk: also that
2016-06-15T00:49:52Z galex-713: regulatory capture?
2016-06-15T00:51:49Z dpk: though the IETF is less affected by that since many of its specs are developed by FLOSS people with the intention of making FLOSS implementations. not entirely impervious — i think the specs for stuff to do with network administration have been particularly affected by unnamed large companies selling routers — but at least in application space things are okay
2016-06-15T00:52:01Z dpk: but in that regard, the less said about WHATWG and especially W3C the better
2016-06-15T00:52:53Z galex-713: ah that is interesting though
2016-06-15T00:53:07Z galex-713: I thought IETF was mainly, dunno, broadcom, AT&T, etc. people
2016-06-15T00:53:31Z galex-713: like, big ISP and big software companies along with some free-software people
2016-06-15T00:53:50Z dpk: it's a big mix. partly those people, but also … those people tend to go to places like the ITU or ISO to get their specs made, because they're openly able to be bought
2016-06-15T00:54:17Z galex-713: ahhh ok
2016-06-15T00:54:19Z galex-713: I see
2016-06-15T00:54:29Z galex-713: and yet most of internet is standardized by IETF?
2016-06-15T00:54:41Z dpk: quite a bit of it, yes
2016-06-15T00:54:50Z galex-713: cool
2016-06-15T00:54:53Z galex-713: btw, afaik, W3C is increasingly being drived by these companies?
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2016-06-15T00:55:20Z dpk: W3C is and always has been owned and under the control of its members. now, here's a challenge: try to become a member of the W3C
2016-06-15T00:55:47Z dpk: here's a hint: if you're not a company with a few million to spare, that is basically impossible to do
2016-06-15T00:56:27Z galex-713: dpk: members had become mostly big companies you mean?
2016-06-15T00:56:54Z galex-713: because I heard long time ago Aaron Schwartz was in the RSS WG
2016-06-15T00:57:00Z dpk: all big companies. all of them. afaik and unless they've changed something, individuals can't become W3C members without a corporate affiliation
2016-06-15T00:57:26Z galex-713: dpk: corporate being a lucrative entity? like FSF couldn’t?
2016-06-15T00:57:57Z galex-713: or Open Source Initiative maybe
2016-06-15T00:58:02Z dpk: i don't think the FSF could, no. it'd probably be too expensive for them, as they depend on donations and need every penny they get
2016-06-15T00:58:11Z galex-713: argh
2016-06-15T00:58:42Z galex-713: dpk: how is that expensive? aren’t corporations naturally rejecting everything potentially harmful to their interests
2016-06-15T00:58:48Z galex-713: *?
2016-06-15T00:58:49Z dpk: that's a big part of why the W3C wasted so long on the XHTML debacle when that plan was so clearly not going to fly with web developers. they're just institutionally out-of-touch
2016-06-15T00:59:13Z dpk: also why they continue to spend a lot of effort on trying to get people to adopt the Semantic Web
2016-06-15T00:59:33Z galex-713: what do mean “fly with web developers”?
2016-06-15T00:59:54Z dpk: i mean they wouldn't have used XHTML 2.0 even if it was finished because it just wasn't practical
2016-06-15T01:00:01Z galex-713: what’s the problem of the semantic web? it’s great for accessibility for example
2016-06-15T01:00:29Z galex-713: why and for why wasn’t it practical?
2016-06-15T01:00:41Z dpk: in terms of corporations' rejection of things … as an example, see their rejection of HTML5 open video in favour of Flash until the W3C agreed to add DRM to HTML
2016-06-15T01:01:08Z galex-713: Yeah
2016-06-15T01:01:13Z dpk: the WHATWG is slightly better, but still basically has the same problem. the HTML spec is controlled by the browser makers: Apple, Google, Opera, Mozilla, and Microsoft
2016-06-15T01:01:56Z galex-713: whait what’s the difference between WHATWG and W3C
2016-06-15T01:01:57Z galex-713: *?
2016-06-15T01:01:58Z dpk: of these, Opera now uses the same rendering engine as developed by Google, and Mozilla is utterly dependent on Google for revenue (about 95% of their income comes from the share they get from Google ads from people using the search box in Firefox)
2016-06-15T01:02:21Z galex-713: yeah I know that for mozilla
2016-06-15T01:02:35Z galex-713: (I even thought it was 98 or 99%)
2016-06-15T01:03:18Z galex-713: dpk: and what’s the problem with the semantic web?
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2016-06-15T01:04:55Z dpk: the WHATWG was set up by the browser makers while the W3C were fucking around with XHTML 2.0, to try to develop extensions to HTML 4.01 which would make the web a better platform for rich web applications, at a time when that was just taking off. their efforts on the 'Web Apps' spec turned into HTML5, while the W3C was eventually forced to abandon XHTML 2.0
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2016-06-15T01:06:39Z galex-713: dpk: but wasn’t W3C set up by browsers makers too? and what’s the deal with semantic web?
2016-06-15T01:06:42Z dpk: the Semantic Web is RDF, OWL, GRDDL, SPARQL and a bunch of other technologies; it has little to do with accessibility. it's a rehash of ideas that were developed during the AI boom in the 1980s but then went out of fashion. the W3C brought them back, and in turn guaranteed job security for all the researchers who had originally worked on this rubbish back in the day
2016-06-15T01:08:27Z dpk: the W3C was set up by Tim Berners-Lee and the other early specifiers of web technology after development of the web project left CERN and after it became clear that the IETF was not interested in hosting development of the HTML spec for various reasons
2016-06-15T01:08:41Z galex-713: ()
2016-06-15T01:08:47Z galex-713: (what various reasons?)
2016-06-15T01:09:02Z galex-713: And why did W3C brought semantic stuff back too?
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2016-06-15T01:10:21Z dpk: i think it came down to that the IETF thought that HTML and the Web was evolving too quickly, it would involve too many different specifications, there were too many competing ideas coming out at the same time, and it would have ended up being too big for the IETF and they wouldn't be able to develop the more core protocols like TCP/IP any more because the web stuff would just be too much
2016-06-15T01:11:01Z dpk: also, the IETF is mainly involved in specifying network protocols, not document formats, stylesheet languages, or programming languages
2016-06-15T01:11:07Z galex-713: I imagine that also saved IETF from invasion from rich corporations…
2016-06-15T01:11:43Z galex-713: dpk: is HTTP defined by W3C, WHATWG or IETF?
2016-06-15T01:12:06Z dpk: it's defined by the IETF, but the W3C host the mailing list for some reason
2016-06-15T01:12:07Z galex-713: Also, if browsers already have WHATWG, why to take over W3C, or, if the later happened first, why to create WHATWG?
2016-06-15T01:13:34Z dpk: when the W3C was first set up the 'browser makers' were called Microsoft and Netscape. you might have heard of Netscape … they had a nasty little browser war going on at the time and weren't much interested in following the specs anyway. which is why the fundamentals of HTML before HTML 5 were so out of whack with reality
2016-06-15T01:13:49Z dpk: i don't understand your question
2016-06-15T01:14:52Z ijp: the latter was already answered, the former is because it looks more official
2016-06-15T01:15:21Z galex-713: ah ok thanks
2016-06-15T01:15:51Z galex-713: dpk: and why did W3C brought semantic stuff back?
2016-06-15T01:16:22Z dpk: https://i.imgur.com/Cq5eeq2.png is an example of the crap that resulted from HTML not being implemented like it was defined, or defined like it was implemented
2016-06-15T01:16:28Z galex-713: and is keeping to try to get people on it?
2016-06-15T01:16:58Z galex-713: OMG O.O
2016-06-15T01:17:03Z galex-713: holly shit
2016-06-15T01:17:06Z ijp: note the doctype
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2016-06-15T01:18:16Z dpk: galex-713: i think TimBL sincerely believes in the promise of it. back in the early Semantic Web days there was a lot of talk about how it was going to enable 'intelligent assistants' and so on which could answer questions. none of that has materialized — today they tend to talk about more abstract benefits of adopting it
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2016-06-15T01:19:14Z galex-713: dpk: but if W3C is now owned by browsers corporations, why didn’t it take down the semantics stuff?
2016-06-15T01:19:22Z galex-713: Or do TimBL still have power in it?
2016-06-15T01:19:34Z galex-713: through some organization I don’t know about
2016-06-15T01:19:35Z dpk: the W3C isn't owned by the browser corporations, the WHATWG is
2016-06-15T01:20:07Z galex-713: No, not properly, but ruled by them, as you said most members are corporations and it’s now impossible to join W3C otherwise
2016-06-15T01:20:10Z galex-713: So that’s alike
2016-06-15T01:20:34Z dpk: the W3C's members aren't just browser makers, which is the problem
2016-06-15T01:20:54Z dpk: the W3C's members are also companies like Netflix and the BBC
2016-06-15T01:21:00Z galex-713: how is that a problem and why those other members keep pushing for semantic web?
2016-06-15T01:21:04Z dpk: they were the main ones who pushed for DRM in HTML
2016-06-15T01:21:07Z galex-713: Ah yeah
2016-06-15T01:21:13Z galex-713: yeah understandable
2016-06-15T01:21:36Z ijp: BBC :/
2016-06-15T01:22:44Z galex-713: dpk: but then, *who* has power to make W3C keep pushing for semantic web?
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2016-06-15T01:23:54Z dpk: there are universities and research institutes who have significant numbers of their computer science staff tied up in Semantic Web research, for instance
2016-06-15T01:24:16Z galex-713: and these universities and research institutes are W3C members?
2016-06-15T01:24:29Z dpk: yes
2016-06-15T01:24:31Z dpk: ijp: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Feb/0153.html
2016-06-15T01:25:19Z ijp: dpk: I wasn't doubting, I was just disappointed
2016-06-15T01:25:23Z dpk: you can see the list here https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List
2016-06-15T01:27:23Z galex-713: dpk: and then these universities/instits has enough power to keep W3C get semantic web pushed even that not being directly interesting for corporations… but then, do they lack power to allow non-corporative members to come or are they unwilling to do for some reasons (like State/financial reasons)?
2016-06-15T01:27:46Z dpk shrugs
2016-06-15T01:28:46Z dpk: the W3C has never allowed non-corporate members. i think originally TimBL just set up the 'membership' idea so that the new W3C organization would have some funding, and wanted more public input into the process, but they ended up getting too much power, through access to private mailing lists and things
2016-06-15T01:29:44Z galex-713: dpk: wait what is a corporation? I don’t include universities in corporations but in the same range of stuff as FSF, except they’re financed by the State
2016-06-15T01:29:54Z galex-713: *kind of stuff
2016-06-15T01:30:46Z galex-713: dpk: I mean, if FSF asked to lower prices so they can come, would universities/research instits would be unable or unwilling to help?
2016-06-15T01:30:46Z dpk: galex-713: i think any non-natural person who can afford whatever absurd fee http://www.w3.org/Consortium/fees tells them to pay can be a member
2016-06-15T01:33:09Z galex-713: yeah but the minimal price is absurd
2016-06-15T01:33:38Z galex-713: then do universities/research instits supports that pricing or are they unable to do anything?
2016-06-15T01:34:42Z dpk: i'm sure they could try to change it, but they're in a minority within the W3C, and outnumbered by the big corps who don't want change
2016-06-15T01:34:58Z galex-713: ok I see
2016-06-15T01:35:51Z galex-713: So if they have power to keep semantic web it’s not because of they number but because they’re big enough for making that ask for too much resources from corporations to argues/fight against them for something that doesn’t harm themselves directly
2016-06-15T01:35:55Z dpk: oh, and also, don't set aside the factor of face-saving. the W3C lost a lot of credibility when they had to cancel XHTML 2.0 after years of hyping it as the future. they, as an organization, don't want to lose more by dumping another long-term project they said was the future
2016-06-15T01:36:15Z galex-713: ah yeah
2016-06-15T01:36:46Z galex-713: well, XHTML HTML5-like wouldn’t be a shame… would be good… but it’s supported nowere :(
2016-06-15T01:37:12Z dpk: they don't have that much of a role in the development of HTML any more, for instance, but they keep publishing these numbered versions like HTML 5.0, 5.1, i think they're on 5.2 now, to make it look like they're involved. they just copy the WHATWG spec (with credit), change some things, and put a version number badge on it
2016-06-15T01:37:43Z galex-713: ok
2016-06-15T01:38:49Z dpk: the only spec they really control now that's used by web developers every day is CSS. and i notice the WHATWG has even started to take over tiny little bits of that now
2016-06-15T01:39:24Z dpk: like https://books.spec.whatwg.org/ and https://figures.spec.whatwg.org/
2016-06-15T01:39:27Z galex-713: argh
2016-06-15T01:39:51Z galex-713: I would have liked so much XML-FO were not crap :(
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2016-06-15T01:46:19Z galex-713: dpk: would be great to make a new xslt standard that is barely scheme in xml form :p then we would implement a *good* layout engine+typesetter taking the good parts of web engines and TeX and mixing up to something semantic, accessible and coherent so that it can replace CSS x) (and be written in XML form to please the W3C univ/research people)
2016-06-15T01:47:31Z dpk: there is still an open-source DSSSL processor out there … though its XML support is spotty
2016-06-15T01:47:33Z dpk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document_Style_Semantics_and_Specification_Language
2016-06-15T01:47:33Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/icaurzvXux
2016-06-15T01:47:34Z galex-713: we also have to find a way to translate xml syntax to json syntax to please mozilla/average web developers
2016-06-15T01:48:01Z galex-713: dpk: does DSSSL is turing complete and has homoiconicity?
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2016-06-15T01:48:21Z galex-713: and is DSSSL meant to do XSLT or XSL-FO job?
2016-06-15T01:49:07Z ijp resets the "N days without mentioning 'homoiconicity'" counter
2016-06-15T01:49:27Z galex-713: ?
2016-06-15T01:50:09Z dpk: yep, it's based on R4RS with these differences http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/DSSSLVsScheme
2016-06-15T01:50:32Z galex-713: oh
2016-06-15T01:50:46Z galex-713: We should make one based on r7rs-lite and merge it with a future xslt
2016-06-15T01:51:02Z galex-713: So it can be written both in xml and lisp syntax, and maybe json syntax too
2016-06-15T01:51:17Z galex-713: Yet I have to figure out how to do that in json…
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2016-06-15T02:03:58Z dpk: galex-713: alas, reforming XSLT is not going to happen. there is only one complete implementation of the most recent XSLT standard … and it happens to be written and sold by the company which is led by the editor of the spec
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2016-06-15T03:44:59Z galex-713: dpk: browsers implement it
2016-06-15T03:45:47Z galex-713: dpk: and keywords are similar to scheme’s… except maybe stuff like the map/for-each difference
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2016-06-15T09:19:08Z dpk: galex-713: no browser implements any XSLT version newer than 1.0, afaik
2016-06-15T09:19:36Z dpk: there is no open-source implementation of any version newer than that, even
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2016-06-15T09:26:30Z galex-713: oh :(
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2016-06-15T15:51:04Z nowolfer: Are there someone here using Chez Scheme implement?
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2016-06-15T15:55:04Z davorb: not yet, but I might try it in the future. i tried forking the repo and compiling it with a custom prefix, but that failed and so I gave up for the time being.
2016-06-15T15:59:23Z nowolfer: davorb: it work for me on my mac :)
2016-06-15T15:59:35Z nowolfer: davorb: Them which implement do you use?
2016-06-15T16:00:38Z davorb: nowolfer: i'm on ubuntu. compiling it worked great, but the problem was installing it to ~/home/MYUSER/bin
2016-06-15T16:01:14Z davorb: they had an open issue about it on github, and they ~might~ have fixed it since then.
2016-06-15T16:01:47Z nowolfer: davorb: i am not sure if i come with socket support. i want to use it develop some web application.
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2016-06-15T16:03:42Z davorb: nowolfer: i would be very surprised if it didn't have it. worst case scenario, you would have to use the FFI-interface and call C-functions (which is easy to work with) http://www.scheme.com/csug8/foreign.html#./foreign:h9
2016-06-15T16:04:46Z nowolfer: davorb: what are you use scheme for?
2016-06-15T16:06:09Z davorb: I guess "fun". the last thing I did in scheme, was an assignment a few weeks ago in numerical analysis. I wrote a program that took a set of bézier curves, and produced vector art in pdf-format.
2016-06-15T16:06:22Z davorb: well, control points for the bézier curves
2016-06-15T16:08:10Z nowolfer: davorb: which implement do you suggest?
2016-06-15T16:10:43Z davorb: nowolfer: for network stuff, I've found that chicken has libraries that are nice to work with. chicken also has super friendly people on their mailing list and irc channel.
2016-06-15T16:11:15Z davorb: otherwise I use racket a lot, and I like it.
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2016-06-15T16:16:42Z mokuso: nowolfer: I'm using mit-scheme along with the SICP course on Lubuntu, and it goes fine.
2016-06-15T16:18:56Z mokuso: ah, it seems that was for davorb  :$
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2016-06-15T16:20:31Z nowolfer: thank you
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2016-06-15T17:04:56Z ecraven: chez does have socket support
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2016-06-15T17:52:08Z noethics: ecraven, where?
2016-06-15T17:56:52Z gwatt: noethics: not built in. There's an example on using it included with chez
2016-06-15T17:56:53Z gwatt: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/blob/master/examples/csocket.c
2016-06-15T17:57:00Z gwatt: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/blob/master/examples/socket.ss
2016-06-15T17:59:17Z gwatt: Someone else did a pretty full thing called chezsockets: https://github.com/arcfide/chez-sockets
2016-06-15T18:00:54Z gwatt: but he created it with his literate programming tool, so it's difficult to read as is.
2016-06-15T18:01:38Z noethics: gwatt, yeah i'm aware of both of those but i was wondering if i had missed what ecraven was talking about
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2016-06-15T18:46:57Z ecraven: noethics: /usr/lib/csv9.4.1/examples/socket.ss on my system
2016-06-15T18:47:03Z ecraven: also, that arcfide code :)
2016-06-15T18:47:32Z ecraven: see also http://cisco.github.io/ChezScheme/csug9.4/foreign.html#./foreign:h9
2016-06-15T18:49:11Z noethics: ecraven, yeah that's hardly socket support :P it's an example
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2016-06-15T18:52:35Z ecraven: noethics: I've used arcfide's code before, worked well
2016-06-15T18:53:02Z noethics: ecraven, usually what people mean by 'has support' in terms of a language is that it's built into the language
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2016-06-15T18:55:16Z ecraven: noethics: is a library not "has support"?
2016-06-15T18:56:27Z ecraven: noethics: most languages don't have built-in support for sockets, but have them as some sort of library
2016-06-15T18:59:43Z noethics: ecraven, if someone on the street came to me and asked if my own language which i cherish very much had support for sockets, i would tell them no it does not. but they can use foreign functions to get them.
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2016-06-15T19:00:38Z noethics: if you want to debate the semantics of the word 'supports' with me. i'm not interested. sorry.
2016-06-15T19:01:29Z ecraven: noethics: well, then we just differ in our opinion about "is supported". for me, if I can have functions that do it, then it is supported, whether it's a library or builtin
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2016-06-15T21:40:38Z Jookia: Is there a Scheme with good reflection capabilities, including environment modification?
2016-06-15T21:42:09Z wasamasa: I'd expect racket to have that
2016-06-15T21:42:21Z wasamasa: and judging by the support in geiser, guile, too
2016-06-15T21:42:35Z mikeyhc: I know chicken used to, but I think it got deprecated a few releases ago. not sure if it got replaced
2016-06-15T21:42:54Z n_blownapart: hi a couple things about this sicp program. first, why the use of the 'degenerate cases' commented at bottom? https://www.refheap.com/120388 thank you for looking
2016-06-15T21:45:56Z Jookia: wasamasa: Not sure if those can take a function at closure and modify its code :\
2016-06-15T21:47:36Z ijp: jookia: schemes tend to be anti reflection in general
2016-06-15T21:48:28Z ijp: in guile, you can generally mess around with modules at runtime
2016-06-15T21:48:45Z n_blownapart: second, how on earth does the program work... ^
2016-06-15T21:49:03Z ijp: but you won't be able to tweak procedure code at runtime
2016-06-15T21:51:11Z ijp: n_blownapart: the thing at the bottom is just explaining the base cases
2016-06-15T21:51:12Z Jookia: ijp: Are there any pro-reflection lisps?
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2016-06-15T21:52:11Z ijp: I think most will probably rule out some form of procedure modification, I think even elisp does
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2016-06-15T21:54:01Z ijp: Did SICP really have that code for first-denomination? I guess they must have done, since lists didn't appear till chapter 2
2016-06-15T21:55:00Z n_blownapart: ijp:  thanks .. why count amount = 0 as 1 way to make change. ? Also, how do you read line 6, with that last 0 ?
2016-06-15T21:55:23Z ijp: you can take it as a convention, but it seems obvious to me that there is one way to make 0
2016-06-15T21:56:14Z ijp: line 6 covers the second and third "degenerate cases", it could easily have been two lines, but instead they used an 'or' in the condition
2016-06-15T21:56:23Z n_blownapart: ok its a figure of speech to allow for a base case.
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2016-06-15T21:57:12Z wasamasa: ijp: and what about nadvice modifying byte-code?
2016-06-15T21:58:10Z ijp: I like to pretend advice doesn't exist
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2016-06-15T22:01:16Z wasamasa: :D
2016-06-15T22:02:18Z n_blownapart: ijp  .. yeah, I overlooked something in line 6. makes perfect sense , thanks . if you have time...
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2016-06-15T22:05:16Z n_blownapart: if an experienced schemer were to look at this, where would it be likely that s/he would look first, to see what the crux of the program is doing? would it be, for example, the base case, then lines 7 - 12 ?
2016-06-15T22:05:25Z n_blownapart: ijp
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2016-06-15T22:07:10Z n_blownapart: that's not what I mean exactly ..
2016-06-15T22:07:23Z ijp: sure 7-12 is doing all the work
2016-06-15T22:08:06Z ijp: first-denomination is a weird hack so that you don't have to use a list for the coins
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2016-06-15T22:09:25Z n_blownapart: thanks ijp  . what I *sort of* mean is how can I look at this and immediately know how to hand-write the output.. because hand-writing output at this stage seems like the only way where I can grasp the structure of programs. ijp
2016-06-15T22:10:56Z n_blownapart: (its hard to ask a good question if one is vague in his understanding to begin with)
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2016-06-15T22:16:10Z ijp: not sure what you mean by "immediately write the output"
2016-06-15T22:17:04Z ijp: in cases like this, I'd draw out a tree showing how cc makes its recursive calls
2016-06-15T22:17:14Z n_blownapart: or any way to follow a full recursion cycle beginning with the 50-cent piece, which I guess is what it does. ijp
2016-06-15T22:18:04Z n_blownapart: a tree, ok. so far I've only used it for the fibonacci tree recursion.
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2016-06-15T22:20:09Z ijp: I wouldn't try and draw it in full, just enough levels to get a feel for it
2016-06-15T22:20:30Z ijp: either that, or start with a much smaller number than 100, like 30
2016-06-15T22:22:00Z n_blownapart: ok thanks ijp. the cond statements are sort of like key / value pairs, so all that last part does is 'assign' the denominations to a key (1..5)
2016-06-15T22:22:42Z n_blownapart: a key which is the counter for the whole program, right?
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2016-06-15T22:28:18Z n_blownapart: ijp thanks a lot I get it now.
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