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2016-06-01T00:05:16Z taylan: jcowan: I have this note from you lying around, but don't understand it at the moment: (re. bytestructures) "6) There should be functions to extract the functions from a bytestructure descriptor.  This will be important later for supporting multidimensional arrays whose components are bytestructures."
2016-06-01T00:06:03Z taylan: jcowan: the accessors for all the fields of the <bytestructure-descriptor> record type are public.  (maybe it wasn't so at that time, or something)
2016-06-01T00:06:25Z taylan: oh, or it could be that they're undocumented
2016-06-01T00:06:37Z taylan: yup, they're undocumented
2016-06-01T00:09:41Z taylan: fixed
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2016-06-01T04:57:02Z n_blownapart: hi I could use some help with the text beginning on line 7 from sicp, if anyone has time . more to follow paste: https://www.refheap.com/119814
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2016-06-01T05:02:39Z n_blownapart: In fact, it is not hard to show that the number of times the procedure will compute (fib 1) or (fib 0) (the number of leaves in the tree recursion) is precisely Fib(n + 1). << this is problematic for me.
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2016-06-01T08:00:39Z jyc_: Is there a bot that logs this channel?
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2016-06-01T08:20:05Z leot: jyc_: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/scheme/
2016-06-01T08:20:53Z jyc_: leot: thanks
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2016-06-01T13:46:26Z autogen: Hello
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2016-06-01T13:48:47Z autogen: I wonder if there's a scheme-to-python type of compiler out there or at least a wrapper to essentially schemize python.. I know there's a similar idea for lisp called Hylang, and this is very nice. Similarly, Clojure.
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2016-06-01T13:59:28Z dTal: autogen: what are you trying to accomplish? Hylang is the only thing in that vein you're likely to find practically useful, but it's not Scheme - just s-expressions for Python
2016-06-01T14:00:43Z dTal: not "lisp" either, in the sense of Common Lisp - it is paren syntax with python semantics
2016-06-01T14:01:29Z autogen: Perhaps it making my own wrapper wouldn't be too tough then
2016-06-01T14:01:30Z autogen: Hmm
2016-06-01T14:01:49Z dTal: again, what are you trying to do
2016-06-01T14:02:01Z dTal: if you want paren syntax with scheme semantics, well then just use scheme
2016-06-01T14:02:25Z dTal: if you want interoperability with python, you need python semantics and Hylang is what you want
2016-06-01T14:12:44Z jcowan: http://norvig.com/lispy.html <-- Norvig's implementation of (minimal) Scheme in Python
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2016-06-01T14:29:11Z autogen: jcowan: this is incredibly easy to read.
2016-06-01T14:29:21Z autogen: Thank you :)
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2016-06-01T14:29:44Z autogen: dTal: you're right, hlang is the right way. Thank you :)
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2016-06-01T14:56:08Z groovy2shoes: has anybody used a Scheme to implement a C library?
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2016-06-01T14:56:35Z groovy2shoes: as in, I want to use Scheme to write a library that exposes a C API, so that C programs can use my library written in Scheme
2016-06-01T14:57:12Z groovy2shoes: compilation to C is not a hard requirement, though if that's the easiest way, that's fine
2016-06-01T14:59:49Z jcowan: Oh, I thought you meant "the C library" = libc.
2016-06-01T15:00:09Z jcowan: certainly Chicken libraries can expose C APIs
2016-06-01T15:02:03Z wasamasa: mhh
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2016-06-01T15:02:19Z wasamasa: I remember though that I didn't go through with that for some reason
2016-06-01T15:02:38Z wasamasa: must have been the host loading the library requiring to be compiled with chicken.h
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2016-06-01T15:05:53Z jcowan: Yes, you need chicken.h and runtime.c along with the C compiled versions of the library/program.
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2016-06-01T15:12:26Z groovy2shoes: static linking is much preferable to dynamic linking in terms of runtime in this case, and the more liberal the license the better...  last time I looked into chicken, there wasn't a supported way to do static linkage, is that still the case?
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2016-06-01T15:14:42Z wasamasa: that's right
2016-06-01T15:14:59Z wasamasa: it's in the plans for CHICKEN 5 to support it in favor of the -deploy option
2016-06-01T15:15:27Z eatonphil:  wasamasa: what do you mean? Chicken does not support static linking?
2016-06-01T15:15:51Z eatonphil: Isn't there the -static flag?
2016-06-01T15:15:52Z wasamasa: eatonphil: you can statically link your stuff, it's just a lot more work
2016-06-01T15:16:02Z wasamasa: as opposed to languages like go
2016-06-01T15:16:24Z wasamasa: the future plans involve making it easier
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2016-06-01T15:17:05Z wasamasa: see http://www.foldling.org/scheme.html#compiling-statically-linked-chicken-scheme-programs-with-extensions to get a better idea of it
2016-06-01T15:17:06Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/1Z25Jpm6vR
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2016-06-01T15:18:54Z dTal: I find it really weird that eval'ing a (define) propagates the definition to the calling namespace
2016-06-01T15:19:56Z dTal: while at the same time definitions in the calling namespace do not propagate inward to the eval
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2016-06-01T15:23:08Z groovy2shoes: dTal, that's implementation-dependent
2016-06-01T15:23:20Z groovy2shoes: non-standard behavior
2016-06-01T15:24:17Z dTal: I find it hard to see what eval is supposed to be used for, idiomatically
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2016-06-01T15:24:55Z dTal: If it always evaluated in the current context, that would be useful
2016-06-01T15:25:10Z dTal: if it reliably evaluated in a specifiable environment, that would be useful
2016-06-01T15:25:31Z dTal: but as it is all that seems to be reliably doable with it is executing in a blank environment, which is nearly useless
2016-06-01T15:26:14Z groovy2shoes: it does reliably evaluate in a specifiable environment
2016-06-01T15:26:46Z dTal: both chez and chicken at least do the propagating defines thing I mentioned
2016-06-01T15:26:55Z dTal: that's not a very well isolated environment
2016-06-01T15:27:08Z groovy2shoes: in R5RS you had your choice of (scheme-report-environment 5), (null-environment 5), or (interaction-environment)...  R7RS-small retains those and also adds (environment <import spec> ...)
2016-06-01T15:27:29Z groovy2shoes: you didn't say isolated before :p  just specifiable!
2016-06-01T15:28:18Z groovy2shoes: in any case, traditional Lisp eval always used the current environment, whereas in Scheme it's always taken an environment as an argument
2016-06-01T15:28:44Z groovy2shoes: in many Schemes, I suspect (interaction-environment) will yield something akin to the "current environment"
2016-06-01T15:28:47Z eatonphil: wasamasa: damn. I thought it was simpler than that. Thanks for the reference.
2016-06-01T15:28:50Z dTal: and is there a standard way to get a new, blank environment
2016-06-01T15:28:54Z groovy2shoes: though even that isn't mandated by the report
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2016-06-01T15:29:05Z groovy2shoes: dTal, (null-environment 5)
2016-06-01T15:29:16Z dTal: why 5?
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2016-06-01T15:29:22Z ski: R5RS
2016-06-01T15:29:24Z groovy2shoes: because it's from R5RS
2016-06-01T15:29:29Z dTal: I see
2016-06-01T15:29:30Z wasamasa: eatonphil: it gets worse if you include eggs that weren't made to be built statically
2016-06-01T15:29:39Z groovy2shoes: in R7RS-small, I *think* (environment)  will give you an empty environment, as well
2016-06-01T15:29:43Z wasamasa: eatonphil: or just bindings to dynamically linked libraries
2016-06-01T15:30:52Z eatonphil: Are eggs labelled for static-compile-friendliness?
2016-06-01T15:31:26Z groovy2shoes: a standard way to construct a mutable environment would be nice...
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2016-06-01T15:32:00Z wasamasa: eatonphil: of course not :D
2016-06-01T15:32:17Z dTal: okay in Chez doing that and then attempting to use (define) inside the new blank environment yeilds "invalid definition in immutable environment"
2016-06-01T15:32:26Z groovy2shoes: would be a good way to get around the lack of standard associative arrays, too, since presumably production-quality Schemes don't use a-lists for environments...
2016-06-01T15:33:26Z groovy2shoes: dTal, the report allows for that
2016-06-01T15:33:30Z dTal: okay complain-mode: this whole eval-environment thing should be the crown jewel of Scheme but instead it has the feel of a bad compromise that leaves no one happy
2016-06-01T15:33:43Z dTal: end complain-mode
2016-06-01T15:33:51Z groovy2shoes: why should it be the crown jewel of Scheme?
2016-06-01T15:34:11Z dTal: because code is data and data is code
2016-06-01T15:34:28Z groovy2shoes: it's already the crown jewel of more traditional Lisps... Scheme's crown jewels are lexical closures, proper tail recursion, first-class continuations, and hygienic macros
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2016-06-01T15:34:50Z groovy2shoes: dTal, that's still the case even without reflective abilities
2016-06-01T15:35:20Z eatonphil: wasamasa: here's a strong vote in favor of adding something like that :)
2016-06-01T15:35:36Z wasamasa: eatonphil: you should voice that on #chicken, really
2016-06-01T15:35:54Z groovy2shoes: you can still use macros to manipulate code as data, and write metacircular interpreters, and you can still eval code even though you might not be able to create new bindings within eval (though you *should* be able to create new definitions in the (interaction-environment))
2016-06-01T15:35:57Z wasamasa: eatonphil: I'm just relaying what I've read
2016-06-01T15:37:18Z dTal: I guess worst comes to worst you can always hack whatever definitions you want to use in the form of (let) bindings around what you want to execute
2016-06-01T15:37:33Z dTal: just seems hacky
2016-06-01T15:38:05Z groovy2shoes: I don't think let bindings will be relayed into eval, at least not in standard-conformant Scheme
2016-06-01T15:38:31Z groovy2shoes: you're looking at a metacircular interpreter at that point
2016-06-01T15:38:32Z dTal: I mean if you have a form, you can add a let binding around it *before* passing it to eval
2016-06-01T15:38:48Z groovy2shoes: ah, yeah, that makes sense then :)
2016-06-01T15:39:08Z groovy2shoes: I think you actually want "letrec", though :p
2016-06-01T15:40:19Z groovy2shoes: "letrec*" actually
2016-06-01T15:41:46Z dTal: been playing with mpl with renewed interest now that chez is open
2016-06-01T15:42:28Z dTal: very clean CAS interface that plays nice with all the native scheme concepts like symbols and quoted forms
2016-06-01T15:42:44Z dTal: but it's not clear to be the best way to build on it
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2016-06-01T15:42:49Z dTal: *clear to me
2016-06-01T15:45:39Z groovy2shoes: content-addressable storage?
2016-06-01T15:45:52Z dTal: computer algebra system
2016-06-01T15:46:25Z groovy2shoes: ah
2016-06-01T15:46:40Z groovy2shoes: WHTMDAITI
2016-06-01T15:46:57Z groovy2shoes: we have too many damn acronyms in this industry
2016-06-01T15:47:55Z groovy2shoes: Chez is pretty effing great, no lie
2016-06-01T15:48:12Z dTal: honestly I hope symbolic programming is the next big thing
2016-06-01T15:48:39Z groovy2shoes: what do you mean?
2016-06-01T15:48:43Z dTal: that and a revival of array programming
2016-06-01T15:48:48Z groovy2shoes: symbolic programming was the next big thing back in the 60s
2016-06-01T15:49:05Z dTal: what's old is new again
2016-06-01T15:49:08Z groovy2shoes: what's so great about array programming?  logic programming is where it's at :p
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2016-06-01T15:49:30Z dTal: array programming is to structured programming what structured programming is to goto
2016-06-01T15:50:18Z ski: array programming as in e.g. Single-Assignment C ?
2016-06-01T15:50:29Z groovy2shoes: I was thinking APL
2016-06-01T15:50:35Z dTal: like APL yes
2016-06-01T15:50:55Z groovy2shoes: I don't understand the analogy, but I'm also not well-versed in APL... would you care to explain for me, dTal?
2016-06-01T15:51:03Z ski doesn't follow the analogy with structured programming and `goto'
2016-06-01T15:51:30Z dTal: if you can express your operation as a single action on a collection of objects, instead of an explicit loop, all the same algorithms are possible but you're programming at a higher level which is easier to reason about
2016-06-01T15:52:02Z dTal: other languages that do this: MATLab, numpy, and Mathematica
2016-06-01T15:53:23Z groovy2shoes: Scheme, ML, Haskell, Prolog, ...
2016-06-01T15:54:01Z ski: dTal : "add a let binding around it *before* passing it to eval" -- you mean something like :  (eval `(let ((foo ,the-foo)) ,expression) (scheme-report-environment 5))
2016-06-01T15:54:05Z ski: ?
2016-06-01T15:54:13Z dTal: ski: exactly that
2016-06-01T15:54:52Z ski: better is, i think : ((eval `(lambda (foo) ,expression) (scheme-report-environment 5)) the-foo)
2016-06-01T15:55:24Z groovy2shoes: they're equivalent
2016-06-01T15:55:39Z ski: since `the-foo' might be an object that isn't self-evaluable (or easily "liftable" into an expression that evaluates back to the desired value)
2016-06-01T15:56:00Z dTal: Can't speak for Haskell but Scheme does not offer APL-style array manipulation
2016-06-01T15:56:18Z groovy2shoes: ah, I see, ski, disregard my equivalency comment
2016-06-01T15:56:25Z kori: dTal: what a coincidence I was thinking about symbolic programming yesterday :P
2016-06-01T15:56:27Z dTal: closest you can do is mapping lambdas all over the place but it's a pain if you're used to first-class support
2016-06-01T15:56:50Z groovy2shoes: dTal, no, but Scheme *does* offer the ability to deal with "collections of objects without explicit loops"
2016-06-01T15:57:19Z groovy2shoes: `map` takes any function on a scalar and lifts into list-space
2016-06-01T15:57:45Z dTal: yes and I always end up using (map) all over the place
2016-06-01T15:58:56Z dTal: just for fun I rewrote a small graphics program I did to play with Chez scheme in Hylang+Numpy, to see how different it would be
2016-06-01T15:59:04Z dTal: it's much easier to read
2016-06-01T15:59:12Z ski: dTal : have you read Backus Turing award paper, btw ?
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2016-06-01T16:02:11Z dTal: you know I'm not sure I ever have
2016-06-01T16:02:17Z dTal: read the title tons of times
2016-06-01T16:02:38Z ski: well he talks about what you mentioned above
2016-06-01T16:03:19Z ski: hm, a short while ago, i was thinking "express your operation as a single action on a collection of objects" (without explicit "internal iteration" operations like `map') could be thought in terms similar to dynamic scoping
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2016-06-01T16:04:35Z ski: in math, notation like `d y / d x' relies on `y' being defined as a dependent variable, (possibly) depending on the (independent) variable `x'. and this is basically dynamic scope
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2016-06-01T16:06:40Z ski: so it seems to me that, if you e.g. have a matrix `A', and you want to apply some function `f' elementwise on it, you can think of this as having a corresponding dependent "element" variable `a' depending implicitly on some coordinate variables (perhaps `i',`j', or perhaps referred to by position rather than name), which you can then apply `f' directly to, without having to overload `f' to work on nonscalars
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2016-06-01T16:09:08Z dTal: Wolfram wrote a typically bombastic thing where he mentions a previous math product he made tried to unify the concept of functions and arrays
2016-06-01T16:09:35Z dTal: it seems to me that concept has merit - an array is a function that maps index values to output values
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2016-06-01T16:10:44Z dTal: and from this viewpoint, performing a function on an array elementwise is just the composition of the two functions
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2016-06-01T16:12:38Z ski: from the point of view of linear logic, there's a difference in that a function is applied once, but the elements of an array are all used. in practice it tends to not be as extreme, but the dichotomy seems to still be present
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2016-06-01T16:14:24Z ski: (one could imagine a list-comprehension or set-comprehension -like syntax like `{[i,j] |-> f(a) | a = A[i,j]}' or something, to flip between the two views .. hmm)
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2016-06-01T16:22:58Z dTal: so if array programming is merely being able to express that one array is some function of a previous array, symbolic programming is being able to do that before the previous array is actually defined
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2016-06-01T16:29:10Z groovy2shoes: ski, that's just regular ol' set-comprehension: {f(a) | a € A}
2016-06-01T16:30:03Z groovy2shoes: also, that doesn't seem to have anything to do with dynamic scope to me, neither the derivative operator nor the map operator
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2016-06-01T16:56:54Z groovy2shoes: dTal, I dunno, man, I'm reading up on APL and I just don't see the appeal...
2016-06-01T17:00:19Z dTal: Watch this video of someone livecoding Game of Life in APL in about 7 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4
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2016-06-01T17:09:50Z pierpa: They prefer to livecode it rather than explaining a program already written :)
2016-06-01T17:11:52Z DGASAU: groovy2shoes: that not about Algol was true only when report was published.
2016-06-01T17:12:10Z DGASAU: groovy2shoes: there existed quite practical implementations of Algol back then.
2016-06-01T17:12:19Z DGASAU: At least in the Union.
2016-06-01T17:12:44Z ecraven: dTal: that is impressive, in a weird way.. I don't think I could ever be comfortable programming like that
2016-06-01T17:13:43Z dTal: Perhaps not so intensely, but like functional programming there's clearly some really powerful tools of thought in there that are worth getting your head around
2016-06-01T17:13:52Z groovy2shoes: DGASAU, what are you referring to?
2016-06-01T17:13:56Z ecraven: certainly
2016-06-01T17:14:23Z dTal: diehard goto programmers found wrapping their heads around structured programming a challenge too
2016-06-01T17:14:57Z DGASAU: groovy2shoes: IIRC, you cited the report on Algol where they noted that the language was not tested.
2016-06-01T17:15:04Z groovy2shoes: dTal, I think it'd be better to import the good stuff from APL into a more general-purpose, multi-paradigm language than to adopt APL or J or K or ...
2016-06-01T17:15:24Z ecraven: dTal: "the shape of the shape" (rho rho) even sounds philosophical :D
2016-06-01T17:15:32Z groovy2shoes: for some applications, I can see the convenience, but for others, I can imagine it'd be a straightjacket
2016-06-01T17:15:43Z DGASAU: groovy2shoes: at the time of report preparation it was, probably, true, yet otherwise Algol was tested quite well.
2016-06-01T17:15:59Z groovy2shoes: DGASAU, you must have me confused with someone else
2016-06-01T17:16:00Z dTal: Rho, rho, rho of X
2016-06-01T17:16:00Z dTal: Always equals 1.
2016-06-01T17:16:01Z dTal: Rho is dimension; rho rho, rank.
2016-06-01T17:16:01Z dTal: APL is fun!
2016-06-01T17:16:08Z dTal: (oops)
2016-06-01T17:16:13Z DGASAU: groovy2shoes: maybe.
2016-06-01T17:16:13Z groovy2shoes: heheh
2016-06-01T17:16:20Z dTal: --Richard Stallman
2016-06-01T17:16:21Z DGASAU: groovy2shoes: sorry then. :)
2016-06-01T17:16:31Z groovy2shoes: DGASAU, no problem, it happens :)
2016-06-01T17:16:52Z DGASAU: As for APL, I see a lot of value in it.
2016-06-01T17:16:56Z ecraven: I also cannot imagine *reading* APL code
2016-06-01T17:17:06Z dTal: groovy2shoes: perhaps, but what *is* the good stuff, and how will you find out? :p
2016-06-01T17:17:37Z DGASAU: From time to time I find that instead of investigating Fortran I'd prefer to read equivalent code in APL.
2016-06-01T17:17:51Z groovy2shoes: dTal, the good stuff is pretty much the paradigm and the operations necessary to support it, sans the syntax and obscure naming conventions
2016-06-01T17:17:54Z ecraven: DGASAU: do you regularly investigate fortran code?
2016-06-01T17:18:15Z DGASAU: ecraven: not regularly, yet I run into Fortran-derived code from time to time.
2016-06-01T17:18:23Z ecraven: is there no apl-in-lisp-syntax? there must be at least some half-hearted attempts
2016-06-01T17:18:32Z ecraven: DGASAU: I've never had the (mis)fortune so far :)
2016-06-01T17:18:34Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, heheheh I'm sure there is!
2016-06-01T17:18:35Z ecraven: cobol neither
2016-06-01T17:18:35Z dTal: I think implementations should support both the original character set and english words
2016-06-01T17:18:38Z DGASAU: For instance, right now I'm trying to understand some code that looks like simplex method in linear programming.
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2016-06-01T17:18:46Z DGASAU: Whether it is correct or not, remains to be seen.
2016-06-01T17:18:54Z groovy2shoes: I used to help the engineering students at uni with their fortran homework for beer
2016-06-01T17:18:56Z ecraven: hehe, nih, rewrite it!
2016-06-01T17:19:01Z groovy2shoes: good times
2016-06-01T17:19:05Z DGASAU: Yet all these "izrov", "nll", "n1", "i1", "l1" are killing me.
2016-06-01T17:19:34Z groovy2shoes: god is real, jesus is an integer
2016-06-01T17:19:35Z dTal: Q'Nial is interesting, it uses english words and supports lispy syntax, if you want to use it
2016-06-01T17:19:54Z dTal: (purely by nature of its precedence and parentheses rules)
2016-06-01T17:20:28Z DGASAU: groovy2shoes: _unless_declared_otherwise._
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2016-06-01T17:36:05Z jcowan: The Algol 60 report came before implementation, but the revised report of '62-63 came after implementation, and the modified report of '72 is basically "What we did to the revised report to make it make sense"
2016-06-01T17:36:13Z jcowan: so very much reflects implementation.
2016-06-01T17:36:36Z jcowan: I'm in the early stages of working on a modern-ish array spec for r7rs-large
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2016-06-01T18:02:21Z manumanumanu: jcowan: will it bring scheme to the 70s and make it on-par with fortran? :D
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2016-06-01T18:04:48Z jcowan: Better than that, I hope
2016-06-01T18:05:00Z jcowan: something closer to NumPy
2016-06-01T18:07:31Z manumanumanu: jcowan: well, it took us a lot of years to get numpy. fortran was king of the hill for a long time
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2016-06-01T18:08:45Z jcowan: I'm not trying to provide NumPy itself, but rather a better foundation to build it on; my proposal has nothing specifically numeric except that it supports numeric-vector backing store.
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2016-06-01T18:14:56Z manumanumanu: jcowan: sounds good
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2016-06-01T18:19:21Z jcowan: in particular it treats Scheme vectors and SRFI-4 numeric vectors as first-class backing store, so that there is a sharp distinction between array transformations (which produce new arrays that share the backing store) and other array operations (which do not).
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2016-06-01T19:55:05Z jcowan: "Lisp users are accustomed to being able to write programs that take program texts in different dialects (or older versions of the same dialect) and process them to bring them up to date. No single common linguistic feature supports this. And yet, Lisp users are accustomed to expecting that there will be some way to accommodate the needs of compatibility and translation." --kmp
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2016-06-01T20:30:37Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, I've seen Kent make that "compatibility" argument before, especially w.r.t. Scheme "not being a Lisp", but I really don't see it myself
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2016-06-01T20:31:06Z groovy2shoes: even in the past before standardization, there were tons of dialects, and not all of them were Maclisp-compatible at all
2016-06-01T20:31:18Z groovy2shoes: yet nobody would argue they don't belong to the Lisp family
2016-06-01T20:32:19Z groovy2shoes: Interlisp, VLISP, Le-Lisp, LISP/VM, Standard Lisp, etc.  hell, even Maclisp was rather different from LISP 1.5, I'd say
2016-06-01T20:33:18Z groovy2shoes: so I think his argument against Scheme is primarily political, with a thin veil of unsubstantiated "technical" justification thrown on top, and honestly I don't know where it comes from
2016-06-01T20:33:34Z jcowan: That comes from an article where he is not arguing against Scheme at all, AFAICT
2016-06-01T20:33:36Z groovy2shoes: I mean,  he's not the type who wouldn't know Lisp history...
2016-06-01T20:34:12Z groovy2shoes: that's fine, it's just that I've seen him make that argument in at least 3 different comp.lang.lisp posts, specifically with regard to Scheme
2016-06-01T20:34:35Z jcowan: https://web.archive.org/web/20160304012251/http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Lambda.html
2016-06-01T20:34:35Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/pZpgLSs68s
2016-06-01T20:35:06Z jcowan: Sometimes it's best for us all to act as a single body--when we have a common need or when we can help each other on our separate needs by acting as one body. On those occasions, it might be to the advantage of some or all of us to view Scheme and Dylan as members of the Lisp family. At other times, it's best for us to act independently, to avoid stepping on each other's toes. On those occasions, not only might Scheme and Dylan not be Lisps, but it might be
2016-06-01T20:35:06Z jcowan: important even to say that Common Lisp and ISLISP are sufficiently distinct that it is better to treat them as non-overlapping languages.
2016-06-01T20:35:25Z jcowan: So he is both for and against inclusiveness, as the needs of the situation demand.
2016-06-01T20:35:39Z jcowan: And so say I as well.
2016-06-01T20:35:57Z groovy2shoes: I disagree
2016-06-01T20:36:29Z groovy2shoes: I think it's always appropriate to consider Scheme a member of the Lisp family, just as English is a member of the Indo-European family
2016-06-01T20:36:45Z groovy2shoes: Dylan, on the other hand, ...
2016-06-01T20:37:58Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: look at s-expression dylan :)
2016-06-01T20:38:09Z ecraven: the semantics haven't changed, I've been told
2016-06-01T20:38:12Z groovy2shoes: s-expression dylan doesn't count, because it's not dylan :p
2016-06-01T20:38:28Z ecraven: groovy2shoes: well, it all depends what makes "a lisp"
2016-06-01T20:39:02Z groovy2shoes: it's a historical and sociopolitical classification, not a technical one
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2016-06-01T20:39:59Z jcowan: Is "#lang racket" a Scheme?  Most of the time, yes.  Is Kernel a Scheme?  Most of the time, no.  What about EuLisp (which should be called EuScheme in my opinion)?  Sort of, but from the other side of the curtain.
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2016-06-01T20:42:31Z groovy2shoes: I'd say Kernel is very much "a Scheme", in the sense that it's a member of the Scheme linguistic family, not in the sense that it's compatible with any particular agreed-upon Scheme implementation
2016-06-01T20:43:10Z groovy2shoes: and Racket a.k.a. PLT Scheme a.k.a. mzscheme is 100% a member of the Scheme family, no doubt about it
2016-06-01T20:48:34Z jcowan: English is a member of the IE family because it's descended from PIE, just as I'm a Cowan because I'm descended from the original Mac Eoghain
2016-06-01T20:48:48Z jcowan: (although some Cowans of my generation are named "Leyfert")
2016-06-01T20:49:11Z DGASAU: My question in these cases is always the same:
2016-06-01T20:49:17Z DGASAU: Is R-Lisp a Lisp or not?
2016-06-01T20:50:14Z jcowan: Is there documentation in English to read?
2016-06-01T20:51:04Z jcowan: Algol 60 is not a Lisp, although McCarthy made contributions to both
2016-06-01T20:52:35Z groovy2shoes: I would not argue that Algol is a Lisp
2016-06-01T20:52:48Z groovy2shoes: Algol is the progenitor of a whole family of its own
2016-06-01T20:53:11Z jcowan: But it has recursive procedures and if-then-else expressions because of Lisp influence
2016-06-01T20:54:29Z groovy2shoes: that's fine, that's not enough
2016-06-01T20:55:14Z DGASAU: jcowan: on R-Lisp?
2016-06-01T20:55:24Z jcowan: Yes
2016-06-01T20:55:32Z jcowan: all the docs I find are in Russian
2016-06-01T20:55:33Z DGASAU: svn co http://svn.code.sf.net/p/reduce-algebra/code/trunk/doc/primers/primer.pdf
2016-06-01T20:56:13Z jcowan: will read
2016-06-01T20:56:44Z jcowan: Looks somewhat Dylan-like
2016-06-01T20:57:25Z DGASAU: Most likely it is the other way around.
2016-06-01T20:58:24Z jcowan: Wittgenstein on the definition of "game" is relevant here
2016-06-01T20:58:35Z jcowan: you can't pin down any single feature that all games and no non-games have
2016-06-01T21:00:08Z groovy2shoes: DGASAU, cursory look, I think I would
2016-06-01T21:04:05Z groovy2shoes: all lisps have conses, symbols, `quote`, higher-order functions, and a fundamentally expression-based semantics
2016-06-01T21:04:20Z groovy2shoes: (necessary but not sufficient)
2016-06-01T21:05:38Z DGASAU: procedure fact(n); begin integer a; a:=1; while n neq 0 do << a:=a*n; n:=n-1>>; return a; end
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2016-06-01T21:06:08Z DGASAU: Looks a lot like Algol-60. ;)
2016-06-01T21:06:36Z groovy2shoes: indeed
2016-06-01T21:07:20Z DGASAU: Alright, more like some later development in direction of Pascal.
2016-06-01T21:07:40Z DGASAU: In any case, given that it's not clear why Algol-60 is not Lisp.
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2016-06-01T21:09:01Z groovy2shoes: why would Algol be a Lisp?  it doesn't even have lists for LISt Processing...
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2016-06-01T21:11:32Z DGASAU: If you admit that R-Lisp is a Lisp, then Algol is a Lisp too.
2016-06-01T21:11:46Z DGASAU: It has pretty much the same semantics (in general) as R-Lisp.
2016-06-01T21:11:53Z DGASAU: And syntax too.
2016-06-01T21:12:39Z jcowan: I see a lot of talk about pairs there.  No pairs in Algol 60, only arrays.
2016-06-01T21:12:50Z DGASAU: If you propose subject (like "lists with cons cells") as differential criterium, things become a lot worse.
2016-06-01T21:13:01Z DGASAU: For start, there's no English.
2016-06-01T21:13:21Z groovy2shoes: I already proposed that as a criterion above
2016-06-01T21:13:32Z DGASAU: Because, say, miners and doctors talk of completely different things.
2016-06-01T21:13:44Z jcowan: As does kmp, though he dismisses it as fundamentally not to the point
2016-06-01T21:14:00Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, he dismisses it on its own, iirc?
2016-06-01T21:14:24Z jcowan: It's the only thing he can find that all lisps seem to have in common: same spelling, same semantics.  But it's trivial.
2016-06-01T21:14:27Z DGASAU: If you apply this to Lisp, then Prolog is a Lisp.
2016-06-01T21:14:34Z DGASAU: So is Haskell.
2016-06-01T21:15:29Z DGASAU: Oh, right, Python too. ;)
2016-06-01T21:15:32Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, you don't think all lisps also have higher-order functions, expression-semantics, symbols, and `quote`, at the very least?
2016-06-01T21:16:24Z groovy2shoes: anyway, like I said before, it's primarily a historical and sociopolitical distinction, not a technical one (not to say there are *no* technical aspects that constitute Lisp)
2016-06-01T21:17:57Z groovy2shoes: there's definitely a Lisp "culture"
2016-06-01T21:19:04Z groovy2shoes: and definitely "memes" as Richard Dawkins would put it -- sort of an abstract dual of genes
2016-06-01T21:19:26Z jcowan: ACL2 lacks functional arguments
2016-06-01T21:19:45Z jcowan: symbols, yes, but they have different APIs in different Lisps
2016-06-01T21:20:02Z groovy2shoes: I'm not super-concerned with API
2016-06-01T21:20:19Z groovy2shoes: just so long as they're a fundamental part of the language and not relegated to "library" or "roll-your-own" status
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2016-06-01T21:22:32Z groovy2shoes: ah, recursion would be another requirement
2016-06-01T21:22:50Z DGASAU: Prolog has cons-style linked lists in core language.
2016-06-01T21:22:59Z DGASAU: What about recursion?
2016-06-01T21:23:13Z DGASAU: SML has cons-style linked lists in core language too.
2016-06-01T21:23:17Z DGASAU: O'Caml...
2016-06-01T21:24:02Z groovy2shoes: you don't get it
2016-06-01T21:24:04Z jcowan: I think Lisps are like Russians
2016-06-01T21:24:10Z groovy2shoes: it's the combination of all of the features, not any one of them
2016-06-01T21:24:13Z jcowan: you are a Russian if you say you are a Russian and other Russians agree
2016-06-01T21:25:45Z DGASAU: You remind me of one Mordvin who was told he has archetypical true Russian look by one nationalist. :D
2016-06-01T21:27:09Z mikeyhc: the russian web of trust
2016-06-01T21:27:41Z DGASAU grins at "web of trust..."
2016-06-01T21:27:55Z mikeyhc: DGASAU: pretty much
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2016-06-01T21:29:52Z jcowan: Note that there is no analogous definition of "American", only of "American citizen"
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2016-06-01T21:30:25Z jcowan: although there are Americans without any known ethnic origin
2016-06-01T21:31:49Z DGASAU: bokr: you're right in time, we're discussing Russians.
2016-06-01T21:31:58Z DGASAU: And "linguistics" too.
2016-06-01T21:32:00Z DGASAU: :)
2016-06-01T21:32:31Z DGASAU wonders if anyone else recognises the reference...
2016-06-01T21:37:28Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, how is that different from sociopolitical definition?
2016-06-01T21:38:00Z jcowan: Of what?
2016-06-01T21:38:53Z jcowan: DGASAU: The underlying lisp is Standard Lisp, which is certainly a Lisp
2016-06-01T21:39:17Z DGASAU: jcowan: is Zeta-C a Lisp because of that??
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2016-06-01T21:39:42Z jcowan: No.
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2016-06-01T21:54:16Z jcowan: It would be cool to get that working again
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2016-06-01T22:16:02Z jcowan: Oho.
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2016-06-01T22:16:11Z jcowan: https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis <-- C to CL compiler
2016-06-01T22:18:47Z wasamasa: "* THINGS THAT PROBABLY WON'T BE SUPPORTED: […]- any kind of GCC extension"
2016-06-01T22:18:49Z wasamasa: excellent :D
2016-06-01T22:19:37Z jcowan: bummer, he should at least support nested procedures
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2016-06-01T22:22:14Z wasamasa: I hate it when I look through the sources of a cool looking CL thing and it appears to be too little code spread over too many files for solving the task at hand
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2016-06-01T22:27:30Z groovy2shoes: kinda hard to get by without Gcc extensions, in general
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2016-06-01T22:27:46Z groovy2shoes: they're almost a de facto standard on their own... there's a reason why clang supports them
2016-06-01T22:27:57Z groovy2shoes: iirc, even tcc supported a handful of gcc extensions
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2016-06-01T22:28:25Z groovy2shoes: (nested functions are good, and I'm also a fan of computed gotos)
2016-06-01T22:28:57Z groovy2shoes: though Turbo C's inline assembly was wayyyy better :p
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2016-06-01T22:38:43Z mejja: rudybot: MIT System 98 and Symbolics 5.0 have new package systems, which appear to even be compatible!
2016-06-01T22:38:48Z rudybot: mejja: If you do symbolics, CL is better than any of them.
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2016-06-01T22:42:07Z mejja: rudybot: Synonym streams are SOOOO WEIRD!
2016-06-01T22:42:08Z rudybot: mejja: 'The sequel, Cats & Dogs: The Revenge Of Kitty Galore, eases off on the hatefulness by providing a token nice kitty, but even she's subjected to waterboarding before she can be trusted. (Yes, a waterboarding joke. Because cats and dogs are just like people! Soooo cute!)'
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2016-06-01T23:11:18Z makufiru: can anyone recommend a good scheme implementation for creating games? or just one that has good windows support?
2016-06-01T23:11:51Z mikeyhc: have made some basic games in CHICKEN using the hypergiant library
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2016-06-01T23:56:03Z lewis1711: what is the reason that "if" is a special form? I realize the whole "procedures evaluate their arguments before they are called" thing, but you could easily write a version that takes arguments of the form (lambda () ... )