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2016-05-31T00:43:37Z mejja: anyone else noticed that get-bytevector-n! conses in chez scheme?
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2016-05-31T00:46:25Z groovy2shoes: no
2016-05-31T00:46:46Z groovy2shoes: who uses bytevectors?
2016-05-31T00:48:03Z mejja: So what do you recommend? bit-vectors or atom-vector or maybe quark-vectors?
2016-05-31T00:48:49Z mejja: spinning around filling up a buffer shouldn't cons...
2016-05-31T00:49:24Z mejja: chez conses approx 36 bytes per buffer fill.
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2016-05-31T01:02:44Z groovy2shoes: I recommend vectors
2016-05-31T01:05:31Z mejja: Context here is I/O..
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2016-05-31T01:25:23Z groovy2shoes: oh, well then I recommend ports
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2016-05-31T02:55:36Z galex-713: I’ve a question: theorically, the kind of “scoping” used in C would be dynamic scoping right?
2016-05-31T02:57:13Z groovy2shoes: no
2016-05-31T02:57:18Z groovy2shoes: C uses lexical scoping
2016-05-31T02:58:06Z groovy2shoes: along with virtually everything else invented since 1968, and many other things since 1960
2016-05-31T02:59:05Z groovy2shoes: iirc, Perl uses dynamic scope by default, unless you do the 'use strict' shit
2016-05-31T02:59:16Z groovy2shoes: and then there's "Newlisp"
2016-05-31T03:00:01Z groovy2shoes: but that's all I can think of other than the old pre-Scheme Lisp systems and Emacs Lisp that use dynamic scope
2016-05-31T03:00:09Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: but, I mean, a function use the values of global variables of when the function is ran, not declared, right?
2016-05-31T03:00:18Z groovy2shoes: I'm sure there are others, but not many, comparatively speaking
2016-05-31T03:00:23Z galex-713: lexical scoping makes closures, and C can’t do closures, right?
2016-05-31T03:00:41Z groovy2shoes: lexical scoping is necessary but not sufficient for closures
2016-05-31T03:01:06Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: dynamic scoping mean the value of variable is taken from function execution rather than function declaration right?
2016-05-31T03:01:10Z galex-713: or is it more complicated?
2016-05-31T03:01:22Z JoshS: Think of it this way, in dynamic scoping all variables are globals, and you do locals by temporarily pushing the globals and restoring them later
2016-05-31T03:01:44Z JoshS: In lexical scoping the local variables usually LIVE on the stack
2016-05-31T03:01:51Z groovy2shoes: in lexical scope, the binding of a variable is determined from the structure of the program text, statically, at "compile time" or equivalent
2016-05-31T03:02:28Z groovy2shoes: in dynamic scope, the binding of a variable is determined from the most recent dynamic binding of that variable at run time
2016-05-31T03:02:31Z galex-713: oh ok I think I see
2016-05-31T03:02:39Z groovy2shoes: it's easier to see with an example
2016-05-31T03:02:54Z galex-713: Yeah, guile’s manual has one, I just misunderstood it
2016-05-31T03:03:05Z galex-713: (or didn’t reread it recently enough x)
2016-05-31T03:03:14Z JoshS: que pasta, groovy2shoes
2016-05-31T03:04:03Z JoshS: For lack of better things to do, I've been writing an Othello (board game) playing program in c++ the last week
2016-05-31T03:04:37Z JoshS: Today's task, transposition tables and advanced search
2016-05-31T03:04:53Z groovy2shoes: (define x 'foo)  (define (print-x) (display x) (newline))    ; these are used by both programs
2016-05-31T03:05:34Z groovy2shoes: (let ((x 'bar)) (print-x))   ; prints "foo" under lexical scoping, "bar" under dynamic scoping
2016-05-31T03:06:00Z JoshS: good example
2016-05-31T03:07:10Z groovy2shoes: under lexical scoping, the `x` variable in `print-x` comes from the lexical (static, apparent from the program's source text) environment, whereas under dynamic scoping, it comes from the run-time, dynamic environment
2016-05-31T03:08:56Z galex-713: oh yeah ok
2016-05-31T03:09:22Z groovy2shoes: in a sense, you can think of lexical environments as being a stack of scopes at "compile time" (or equivalent), whereas dynamic environment is a stack of scopes at run-time  (in the example above, as soon as that (let ((x 'bar)) ...) form is exited at run-time, the dynamic environment for `x` is "popped" and `x` is restored to `foo`
2016-05-31T03:09:34Z groovy2shoes: )
2016-05-31T03:10:09Z groovy2shoes: does that make sense, galex-713 ?  or should I try another approach and/or example?
2016-05-31T03:10:14Z JoshS: the irony of the trailing paren in a scheme chat
2016-05-31T03:10:26Z groovy2shoes: heheh yeah :D
2016-05-31T03:10:26Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: no it’s really clear, thank you :)
2016-05-31T03:10:32Z galex-713: JoshS: yeah x)
2016-05-31T03:10:34Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, no problem :)
2016-05-31T03:10:36Z galex-713: :)
2016-05-31T03:11:02Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, the reason why you can't have "real" closures without lexical scope is because there's no environment to close over without it
2016-05-31T03:11:12Z galex-713: yeah I see
2016-05-31T03:11:34Z galex-713: That is the thing I figured out, but the real definition of each scoping wasn’t rigorous enough in my mind I think
2016-05-31T03:12:02Z groovy2shoes: LISP 1.5 had the concept of a "funarg", which was like a closure, and used how closures are used today, but basically the programmer had to supply the necessary bindings at runtime, rather than the closure being able to "remember" them
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2016-05-31T03:12:26Z groovy2shoes: it was much more explicit
2016-05-31T03:12:34Z JoshS: scoping becomes a nightmare when you consider the problem of symbolic math packages where you have to pass variables around in expressions rather than in closures
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2016-05-31T03:13:01Z groovy2shoes: dynamic scoping is difficult to reason about, and makes a poor default, but does come in handy sometimes
2016-05-31T03:13:03Z galex-713: also, I just remembered something I wondered some time ago: how do you call a scheme procedure with the default value of an optional argument if, for example, you have another optional argument undefined?
2016-05-31T03:13:28Z groovy2shoes: that's up the the procedure, really
2016-05-31T03:13:45Z groovy2shoes: there are different ways programmers can handle that, if they opt to handle it at all
2016-05-31T03:14:49Z galex-713: Like here: (define (digit n . args) […] (let ((radix (car args))) (number->string n radix)))
2016-05-31T03:15:32Z galex-713: I mean radix here will be '() if the optional arg is not here, but that won’t make number->string use its default value (10), like it would with elisp or something
2016-05-31T03:16:25Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: is there a clean/proper/unrepetitive way of doing that?
2016-05-31T03:16:56Z groovy2shoes: case-lambda was pretty much invented for that use-case, I think
2016-05-31T03:17:18Z galex-713: like without (if (null? radix) (number->string n) (number->string n radix))
2016-05-31T03:17:42Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: I can as well use the if I just wrote, the problem stay I have to repete twice the “number->string”
2016-05-31T03:18:08Z groovy2shoes: mmhm
2016-05-31T03:18:21Z groovy2shoes: that's pretty much all you've got with standard Scheme
2016-05-31T03:18:56Z galex-713: :(
2016-05-31T03:19:05Z groovy2shoes: in this case, actually, since the optional arg is on the end, you can stick the args you *do* have in a list and use `apply`
2016-05-31T03:19:29Z galex-713: (still can’t imagine I have to do that horrible (if (null? x) […]) with scheme instead of (if x […])…)
2016-05-31T03:19:50Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: ohhhhhh good idea :D
2016-05-31T03:20:43Z galex-713: it woooorks \o/
2016-05-31T03:20:49Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: thank you again :)
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2016-05-31T03:21:07Z groovy2shoes: but in the general case, where the optional arg is in the middle or something, it's highly dependent on the procedure how to tell it "use the default"...  it may be that the programmer wrote it so you can give it #f, or nil, or some other value as a "non-arg", but maybe not
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2016-05-31T03:21:40Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: I miss nil :(
2016-05-31T03:21:46Z groovy2shoes: huh?
2016-05-31T03:22:04Z galex-713: “Unbound variable: nil” :(
2016-05-31T03:22:11Z groovy2shoes: (define nil '())
2016-05-31T03:22:12Z galex-713: + the null? you have to use all the time
2016-05-31T03:22:27Z galex-713: I mean I don’t like #f
2016-05-31T03:22:28Z groovy2shoes: you don't *have* to use `null?`
2016-05-31T03:22:35Z groovy2shoes: `eq?` works on nil
2016-05-31T03:22:43Z groovy2shoes: (define false #f)
2016-05-31T03:22:52Z groovy2shoes: (define t #t)
2016-05-31T03:22:54Z galex-713: (there’s also #false)
2016-05-31T03:23:04Z galex-713: well '() is not-#f then it is like true
2016-05-31T03:23:08Z galex-713: That’s the thing I miss
2016-05-31T03:23:14Z groovy2shoes: why?
2016-05-31T03:23:14Z galex-713: Not the names
2016-05-31T03:23:32Z galex-713: Well, it’s like the 0=false in C, I like to have a default case the boolean are made for
2016-05-31T03:23:33Z groovy2shoes: I rather like having a disjoint boolean type
2016-05-31T03:23:46Z groovy2shoes: I never liked that about C, either
2016-05-31T03:24:08Z galex-713: seeing “==0”/“!=0” in C++ horrify most of the times
2016-05-31T03:24:12Z groovy2shoes: apparently, neither did James Gosling, because he added a disjoin boolean type to Java
2016-05-31T03:24:27Z galex-713: Err, when did Java become a reference?
2016-05-31T03:24:51Z groovy2shoes: early 90s sometime, don't remember
2016-05-31T03:26:07Z galex-713: Ok, let me reformulate: when did Java become a reference for lispers?
2016-05-31T03:27:40Z groovy2shoes: I'm not sure what you mean exactly
2016-05-31T03:28:29Z groovy2shoes: for what it's worth, Scheme's disjoint boolean type predates Java entirely, if I'm not mistaken...
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2016-05-31T03:30:12Z JoshS: Nil and Null is reminding me of this http://english.lem.pl/works/novels/the-cyberiad/146-how-the-world-was-saved
2016-05-31T03:30:13Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/rrpt5LO89c
2016-05-31T03:31:04Z JoshS: "Really, how can you two bicker at a time like this? Oh yes, I know what Nothing is, and Nothingness, Nonexistence, Nonentity, Negation, Nullity and Nihility, since all these come under the heading of n, n as in Nil. Look then upon your world for the last time, gentlemen! Soon it shall no longer be..."
2016-05-31T03:31:31Z groovy2shoes: lol
2016-05-31T03:35:01Z galex-713: xD
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2016-05-31T03:35:05Z groovy2shoes: I cringe when I see the ILOS class hierarchy, where <null> is a subclass of both <symbol> and <list>, and on top of that it also behaves as a boolean
2016-05-31T03:35:33Z groovy2shoes: symbols ought to be symbols, lists ought to be lists, and booleans ought to be booleans, if you ask me
2016-05-31T03:36:03Z JoshS: old man groovy shakes his fist
2016-05-31T03:36:30Z groovy2shoes: more like new man on this one, since it's the anti-traditional point of view, but you'd be correct that in general I'm pretty senile ;)
2016-05-31T03:38:01Z galex-713: groovy2shoes: (not (eq? nil (car (eval nil)))) => nil :P
2016-05-31T03:38:51Z JoshS: (car (eval nil))?
2016-05-31T03:39:00Z galex-713: it does eval on emacs :p
2016-05-31T03:39:10Z galex-713: like the knight in the Holy Grail who barked: nil nil nil!
2016-05-31T03:40:08Z JoshS: the first few computer books I owned were on lisp so I have nostalgia for Lisp going back to my teen years
2016-05-31T03:40:22Z JoshS: I must have been quite a nerd, I have no idea how I bought those books
2016-05-31T03:41:05Z JoshS: I had this one that now goes for $170 http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Lisp-McGraw-Hill-computer-science/dp/007001115X
2016-05-31T03:41:05Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/qwGdljvXYu
2016-05-31T03:42:14Z JoshS: that was a book that looked like it was printed a 100 dpi
2016-05-31T03:43:01Z JoshS: written in TEX I'm sure
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2016-05-31T03:45:11Z galex-713: we could surely reimplement tex with lisp
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2016-05-31T03:56:39Z groovy2shoes: galex-713, you mean like Scribble?  ;)
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2016-05-31T07:05:58Z tm512: anyone here familiar with chibi-scheme's C API?
2016-05-31T07:06:42Z groovy2shoes: tm512, I am a little bit
2016-05-31T07:06:48Z groovy2shoes: foof is a lot, if he's around
2016-05-31T07:06:57Z tm512: I'm trying to get it to evaluate a file, but it isn't doing anything
2016-05-31T07:08:59Z tm512: doing tmp = sexp_c_string (ctx, "config.scm", -1); and sexp_load (ctx, tmp, env);
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2016-05-31T07:12:21Z tm512: oh, so it only evaluates the first s-expression in the file? weird
2016-05-31T07:12:28Z tm512: that isn't what I want
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2016-05-31T07:13:47Z groovy2shoes: sexp_load() is *supposed* to load the whole file
2016-05-31T07:14:44Z groovy2shoes: keep in mind that in R7RS, the initial environment is empty, and you need to use an `import` form to get any bindings
2016-05-31T07:15:05Z groovy2shoes: there's also sexp_load_standard_env()
2016-05-31T07:15:23Z tm512: I did the latter
2016-05-31T07:17:09Z tm512: I think it's silently failing because of something in my scheme code, dunno what though
2016-05-31T07:18:12Z tm512: http://hastebin.com/raw/odimaraxor is the config.scm file
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2016-05-31T07:20:40Z groovy2shoes: tm512, that code looks fine to me... have you tried writing the result of sexp_load() with sexp_debug() ?
2016-05-31T07:21:34Z tm512: I can check that right now
2016-05-31T07:22:17Z tm512: "#<Exception 34386155008>"
2016-05-31T07:24:22Z groovy2shoes: you probably want to do something like:  if (sexp_exceptionp(foo)) { sexp_print_exception(ctx, foo, sexp_current_error_port(ctx)); } else { sexp_debug(ctx, "", foo); }
2016-05-31T07:24:34Z tm512: ERROR on line 133 of file /usr/local/lib/chibi/init-7.scm: car: not a pair: [
2016-05-31T07:24:52Z groovy2shoes: huh
2016-05-31T07:24:55Z groovy2shoes: that's interesting
2016-05-31T07:26:03Z tm512: okay, so I can't use [] in place of ()?
2016-05-31T07:26:14Z tm512: cause it works when I go to normal parentheses
2016-05-31T07:26:19Z groovy2shoes: I don't know, I've never tried
2016-05-31T07:26:27Z groovy2shoes: it's not standard R7RS
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2016-05-31T07:26:58Z groovy2shoes: (it was standard R6RS, but that was undone, however many implementations have provided [] support for many years)
2016-05-31T07:27:24Z groovy2shoes: (even long before R6RS came around, which is likely why they added it)
2016-05-31T07:28:57Z groovy2shoes: which version of chibi are you using, btw?  all the *.scm and *.sld files were moved to $PREFIX/share/chibi, and only shared libraries remain in $PREFIX/lib/chibi now
2016-05-31T07:29:41Z tm512: it's 0.7.3
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2016-05-31T07:32:29Z groovy2shoes: huh, me too...
2016-05-31T07:32:56Z groovy2shoes: perhaps I did something special when I installed chibi and don't remember...
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2016-05-31T07:38:07Z tm512: gotta say, trying to work with chibi is pretty frustrating so far :/
2016-05-31T07:38:54Z tm512: it's crashing right now because it's setting channel keys to invalid pointers
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2016-05-31T07:52:55Z groovy2shoes: seems like that kind of thing tends to happen when Lispers get to writing C
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2016-05-31T07:53:30Z wasamasa: :D
2016-05-31T07:53:47Z wasamasa: I'm not complaining too much, it's the debugging that gets me
2016-05-31T07:54:12Z tm512: I'm more familiar with C than I am with lisp
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2016-05-31T07:54:45Z wasamasa: after figuring out how to get symbol tables into the compiled C code, I'm somewhat annoyed that debugging scheme doesn't work that way
2016-05-31T07:55:28Z tm512: maybe I should try out picrin scheme or something
2016-05-31T07:55:41Z tm512: chibi-scheme just isn't working for me
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2016-05-31T07:56:15Z ecraven: for a benchmark comparison of picrin with chibi: http://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html
2016-05-31T07:56:18Z wasamasa: maybe you should try fixing your installation first
2016-05-31T07:56:20Z wasamasa: that's a bit less time-intensive than swiching implementations
2016-05-31T07:56:33Z wasamasa: haven't even heard of picrin
2016-05-31T07:56:45Z groovy2shoes: wasamasa, what do you mean about the symbol tables and the debugging?
2016-05-31T07:57:05Z groovy2shoes: last time I checked, Picrin used quite a bit more memory than Chibi
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2016-05-31T07:57:22Z wasamasa: groovy2shoes: -g
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2016-05-31T07:58:27Z groovy2shoes: wasamasa, ah
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2016-05-31T07:58:43Z wasamasa: gdb tells me then that it loaded up the symbol tables
2016-05-31T07:58:45Z tm512: I think the GC is freeing this string before the C code gets to it, somehow
2016-05-31T07:59:01Z groovy2shoes: tm512, make sure you read the API docs about the GC
2016-05-31T07:59:14Z tm512: I have
2016-05-31T07:59:17Z groovy2shoes: if you're accessing variables from C, you need to make sure the GC knows to preserve them for the C code
2016-05-31T07:59:21Z tm512: I still don't know what's going on
2016-05-31T07:59:24Z wasamasa: it's frustrating to see stack frames with all that information, then auto-generated CPS-style functions without anything
2016-05-31T07:59:53Z tm512: groovy2shoes: these variables are being accessed through the FFI
2016-05-31T08:00:50Z tm512: that's another thing that was annoying, the ffi is designed with shared libraries in mind
2016-05-31T08:02:42Z ecraven: Riastradh: have you ever run `valgrind mit-scheme'? Should I be worried that it shows so many warnings?
2016-05-31T08:03:03Z groovy2shoes: ecraven, yes, you should
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2016-05-31T08:05:13Z wasamasa: emacs doesn't even boot under valgrind :D
2016-05-31T08:05:47Z wasamasa: it's excellent for typical C programs, but stuff managing memory dynamically, not so much
2016-05-31T08:05:57Z wasamasa: very noisy output for CHICKEN
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2016-05-31T08:07:12Z ecraven: I was trying to verify whether I'm correctly freeing memory with the ffi, but that gets drowned in all the noise from mit-scheme proper :-/
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2016-05-31T08:12:29Z groovy2shoes: grep is your friend
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2016-05-31T08:45:34Z C-Keen: wasamasa: which is kind of the thing it was designed to help you with, no?
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2016-05-31T08:47:30Z tm512: well, I gotta give up for tonight, but chibi-scheme is setting the string offset to 26430112, which gets added to the pointer, creating an invalid pointer
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2016-05-31T08:56:10Z groovy2shoes: tm512, I could probably help a little better if you pastebinned the code somewhere ;)
2016-05-31T08:57:03Z wasamasa: C-Keen: oh sure
2016-05-31T08:57:13Z wasamasa: C-Keen: I just wonder how exactly others using it do
2016-05-31T08:57:37Z wasamasa: C-Keen: custom debugging configs for extracting all the interesting values from the registers?
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2016-05-31T09:00:08Z tm512: groovy2shoes: I guess I could tarball it all up
2016-05-31T09:01:08Z groovy2shoes: tm512, if you don't have anywhere to host it, you can e-mail it to me:  cmburget (gmail.com)
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2016-05-31T14:15:07Z foof: tm512: it's very easy to corrupt the heap if you make a mistake in C.  there are various debugging tools to track these down, in particular SEXP_USE_CONSERVATIVE_GC, but i recommend you write everything in scheme and minimize the use of C.
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2016-05-31T14:36:39Z Riastradh: ecraven: Nope, haven't tried MIT Scheme under valgrind.  I know someone has -- that's why there's a `--enable-valgrind-mode' option to configure.
2016-05-31T14:36:47Z Riastradh: ecraven: It is needed in order to
2016-05-31T14:38:18Z Riastradh: ...mark mmapped regions as `malloc-like', or something like that.
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2016-05-31T14:50:34Z mejja: I think the trick is to use a syntaxed only runtime
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2016-05-31T15:37:53Z ecraven: Riastradh: thanks!
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2016-05-31T15:57:59Z ecraven: mejja: hm.. no idea how to generate one of those :)
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2016-05-31T16:21:38Z mejja: move, delete or rename all of the .com files and run etc/build-bands.sh should work..
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2016-05-31T16:25:14Z mejja: ecraven: Please revert the last r7 bench commit. Benchmarks should always run at highest optimization level. You are not compiling a library..
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2016-05-31T16:28:54Z ecraven: mejja: my main problem is, I don't know most of these schemes well enough to actually know what those settings are... but you do have a good point
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2016-05-31T18:21:18Z mejja: rudybot:  Lambda: The Ultimate Pissing Contest
2016-05-31T18:21:19Z rudybot: mejja: has an alias in his ~/.gitconfig whose name is "pissing-contest"
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2016-05-31T23:35:21Z taylan: jcowan: yo yo
2016-05-31T23:36:00Z taylan: I've ditched my [wage] slave master and will probably be free for the next couple months to work on stuff.  resumed working on bytestructures...
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2016-05-31T23:44:48Z groovy2shoes: taylan, congrats!
2016-05-31T23:45:47Z groovy2shoes: I've got such plans myself, after coming to the realization that as a computer programmer, I already own the necessary means of production in my industry, and can just as well liberate myself from the tyranny of the bourgoisie!  self-actualization, here I come!  :D
2016-05-31T23:46:35Z wasamasa: lol
2016-05-31T23:48:27Z taylan: hehe.  I have no idea what I'll be doing in the future work-wise.  for the next couple of months I'll probably just live on people's taxes.
2016-05-31T23:48:42Z groovy2shoes: heheheh
2016-05-31T23:48:47Z taylan: (but hey, I paid a fair share myself in the past 5 years, belonging to the highest tax class)
2016-05-31T23:49:02Z groovy2shoes: it's only fair
2016-05-31T23:49:06Z groovy2shoes: it's what it's there for, after all
2016-05-31T23:49:58Z groovy2shoes: I've got no fewer than four separate businesses lined up for after my resignation at the end of the year
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