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2016-05-28T02:01:05Z galex-713: is there an incrementation form in scheme?
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2016-05-28T02:09:43Z pierpa: you mean incrementing a variable? if so, there's nothing built in
2016-05-28T02:11:39Z pierpa: (define-syntax incr (syntax-rules () ((_ var q) (set! var (+ var q))) ((_ var) (incr var 1)))) ; not tested
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2016-05-28T02:13:27Z galex-713: I see
2016-05-28T02:14:45Z galex-713: pierpa: you just need to also return the var you increment, and also to decide if you return the var before or after being incremented
2016-05-28T02:14:50Z galex-713: pierpa: what would you do?
2016-05-28T02:15:36Z galex-713: in C you have ++i to return the incremented value, and i++ to return the value before it was incremented
2016-05-28T02:16:30Z galex-713: pierpa: speaking of that, how do you do in scheme to give the value you want to return and then do a side-effect? like prog1 in elisp
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2016-05-28T02:17:23Z daviid: galex-713: you probably want to loop right? use do or a named let, or recursion [tail recursion]
2016-05-28T02:17:45Z galex-713: daviid: err no
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2016-05-28T02:19:23Z galex-713: daviid: It’s just I just translated a code from C to scheme, so it looks rather imperative (I used do instead of for), so no recursion, but I increment a var after a sequence of “if” that both would be ugly in the first argument of do and have to be done after some computation made in the loop body
2016-05-28T02:19:58Z jcowan chuckles
2016-05-28T02:20:05Z galex-713: And find a functional way of implementing that looks complicated to me
2016-05-28T02:20:06Z jcowan: `do` is in fact recursive under the covers
2016-05-28T02:20:13Z galex-713: Yes I know ;)
2016-05-28T02:20:18Z daviid: galex-713: so you loop
2016-05-28T02:20:19Z galex-713: it translate to a named let I think
2016-05-28T02:20:36Z jcowan: which in turn translates to lambda
2016-05-28T02:20:49Z galex-713: daviid: yes I already loop, but this is not the “loop increment”, it increment all the n iterations with n arbitrarily growing
2016-05-28T02:21:02Z galex-713: jcowan: what really? :o
2016-05-28T02:21:20Z galex-713: oh wait
2016-05-28T02:21:25Z pierpa: galex-713: you can return the value of the var, but it's not done in sane languages
2016-05-28T02:21:27Z galex-713: Yes that’s natural
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2016-05-28T02:21:47Z galex-713: pierpa: why? and what do you mean by sane language?
2016-05-28T02:22:06Z daviid: galex-713: you should train to write recursively, can you paste or is it too big?
2016-05-28T02:22:08Z galex-713: It’s eavily used in C and I find it useful to make more simple looking/beautiful code things
2016-05-28T02:22:38Z galex-713: daviid: yes but the code is mostly in french, should I translate it for you? :)
2016-05-28T02:22:59Z galex-713: oh wait not mostly
2016-05-28T02:23:27Z pierpa: galex-713: me, when I need prog1, I use prog1
2016-05-28T02:23:32Z galex-713: so let’s correct than
2016-05-28T02:24:04Z pierpa: (in scheme usually is called begin0, though)
2016-05-28T02:24:06Z galex-713: pierpa: do prog1 exists in scheme or did you coded it yourself?
2016-05-28T02:24:11Z galex-713: ohhhh coool begin0
2016-05-28T02:24:30Z pierpa: some schemes have it, sme don't
2016-05-28T02:25:31Z daviid: I speak perfect french too, but I will only help if it a small thing, and if you can clearly specify what the procedure needs to do, in short terms
2016-05-28T02:26:05Z galex-713: http://paste.debian.net/710050/
2016-05-28T02:26:20Z galex-713: daviid: ^
2016-05-28T02:26:26Z galex-713: you can easily observe the main loop
2016-05-28T02:26:34Z galex-713: Also event handling doesn’t work but I don’t care
2016-05-28T02:26:52Z galex-713: and the set of set! is quick to find
2016-05-28T02:27:49Z pierpa: don't use magic numbers
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2016-05-28T02:28:09Z galex-713: pierpa: where?
2016-05-28T02:28:26Z pierpa: 48
2016-05-28T02:28:39Z pierpa: ** is builtin and called expt
2016-05-28T02:28:52Z galex-713: oh cool
2016-05-28T02:29:47Z daviid: pierpa: I'll let you help then, I actually have to work on something else
2016-05-28T02:29:59Z galex-713: pierpa: didn’t know the proper way :/ I first implemented this function thinking the now-commented-one implementation would be quicker, but it wasn’t, and after that I didn’t cleaned it up
2016-05-28T02:32:26Z pierpa: (not (negative?  is built in, called nonnegative?
2016-05-28T02:33:03Z galex-713: pierpa: is begin0 standard? if yes, which standard?
2016-05-28T02:33:34Z galex-713: pierpa: not on guile :/ what standard again?
2016-05-28T02:34:00Z pierpa: begin0 is traditional, I don't remember if it's in any standard. Probably not.
2016-05-28T02:34:12Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-05-28T02:34:13Z galex-713: (not in guile either)
2016-05-28T02:34:40Z galex-713: why didn’t they got standard? :(
2016-05-28T02:35:08Z pierpa: because if you stick to functional programming you won't ever need begin0
2016-05-28T02:35:14Z galex-713: I can understand for nonnegative (seems like an abbrev you could parameter your editor to do at your place), but not begin0
2016-05-28T02:35:17Z galex-713: oh I see
2016-05-28T02:35:19Z galex-713: ok
2016-05-28T02:35:58Z galex-713: pierpa: but scheme is not purely functional right? since begin and !-functions exists
2016-05-28T02:36:01Z pierpa: only, one can't stick completely to functional programming in scheme, so every now and then begin0 is useful :]
2016-05-28T02:36:09Z pierpa: exactly
2016-05-28T02:36:14Z galex-713: ok
2016-05-28T02:36:34Z galex-713: yet I can understand not to include nonnegative? to avoid bloat
2016-05-28T02:36:42Z pierpa: yes
2016-05-28T02:36:47Z galex-713: (yet a natnum? would be cool)
2016-05-28T02:37:06Z pierpa: nonnegative and integer?
2016-05-28T02:37:14Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-05-28T02:37:19Z galex-713: :)
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2016-05-28T02:37:58Z pierpa: never felt it missing, TBH
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2016-05-28T02:38:05Z galex-713: but I can understand it’s not included, maybe that kind of math is not needed enough
2016-05-28T02:38:08Z galex-713: yeah, precisely that
2016-05-28T02:38:17Z galex-713: Would be useful as a let-syntax-rule in math stuff
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2016-05-28T02:38:48Z pierpa: an example?
2016-05-28T02:38:56Z galex-713: to define expt?
2016-05-28T02:39:04Z pierpa: k
2016-05-28T02:39:12Z galex-713: ^^
2016-05-28T02:40:17Z galex-713: Speaking of that, I could make “square” inside a let
2016-05-28T02:40:41Z pierpa: have you checked if square is not already definied?
2016-05-28T02:40:54Z pierpa: say, in racket is predefined
2016-05-28T02:41:02Z galex-713: checked yep
2016-05-28T02:42:32Z pierpa: checked also sqr ?
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2016-05-28T02:43:13Z galex-713: checked sq*
2016-05-28T02:43:27Z pierpa: k
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2016-05-28T02:43:32Z galex-713: is there a standard for it?
2016-05-28T02:44:14Z pierpa: probably not
2016-05-28T02:44:34Z galex-713: ok
2016-05-28T02:44:42Z galex-713: probably still not enough used :)
2016-05-28T02:44:51Z galex-713: a math srfi could be useful maybe
2016-05-28T02:45:06Z pierpa: surely I use it more than a lot of things that got in the standards
2016-05-28T02:45:51Z pierpa: probably is too simple to bother
2016-05-28T02:46:19Z galex-713: we should do massive grep on relevant schemes programs to define standards x)
2016-05-28T02:46:32Z galex-713: *to help define standards
2016-05-28T02:47:06Z pierpa: yeah
2016-05-28T02:47:25Z galex-713: the idea being we want to standardize what we want to promote as usage and not standardize what we want to disencourage
2016-05-28T02:47:48Z galex-713: don’t say why we should disencourage usage of squares
2016-05-28T02:47:52Z galex-713: *don’t know
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2016-05-28T02:49:19Z pierpa: they prefer circles
2016-05-28T02:49:27Z galex-713: x)
2016-05-28T02:49:47Z galex-713: ERROR: In procedure module-lookup: Unbound variable: pi
2016-05-28T02:49:47Z pierpa: good night peeps
2016-05-28T02:49:48Z galex-713: nope :p
2016-05-28T02:49:55Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-05-28T02:50:06Z galex-713: pierpa: anyway anithing to say about my loop and my set!s?
2016-05-28T02:50:16Z pierpa: ?
2016-05-28T02:50:46Z galex-713: when you said you could look at my code
2016-05-28T02:51:00Z pierpa: let me look again
2016-05-28T02:51:16Z galex-713: its the last “do”
2016-05-28T02:51:35Z galex-713: *it’s
2016-05-28T02:52:45Z galex-713: pierpa: also I don’t know if it’s good usage to use the first arg of do as if you were doing a let
2016-05-28T02:52:57Z galex-713: or if I should put it inside a let/use define before
2016-05-28T02:53:42Z galex-713: Anyway the main problem this whole thing doesn’t look functional is because SDL isn’t functional x)
2016-05-28T02:54:01Z pierpa: which line are you referring to exactly?
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2016-05-28T02:55:04Z jcowan: begin0 is not part of any Scheme standard
2016-05-28T02:55:07Z galex-713: well, I first spoke about replacing the set! at the end of the do with some “inc” form I asked if it were existing, and then I spoke about the fact I couldn’t imagine how to do that recursively/in a functional style (recursively and without set!)
2016-05-28T02:55:32Z galex-713: jcowan: yeah, that’s why we were arguing about the relevance of it not being standardized since begin is
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2016-05-28T02:58:07Z galex-713: pierpa: ^
2016-05-28T02:58:44Z jcowan: one of my concerns right now is which new syntax forms, if any, ought to be standardized in R7RS-large
2016-05-28T02:59:04Z jcowan: there don't seem to be any real principles for deciding which are useful and which are not
2016-05-28T02:59:06Z galex-713: “inc!”? ^^"
2016-05-28T02:59:12Z jcowan: if only Google Code Search was still with us
2016-05-28T02:59:45Z galex-713: jcowan: let’s take guile and other scheme implementations, their main modules/libraries/whatever, and do grep :p
2016-05-28T03:00:22Z pierpa: inc! is useful only when you are translitterating code written in another language
2016-05-28T03:00:23Z jcowan: The trouble with that is that it's very easy to add things like and-let* (SRFI 2) to an implementation
2016-05-28T03:00:36Z jcowan: it's just a short syntax-rules macro
2016-05-28T03:00:36Z pierpa: (which is a legittimate use case)
2016-05-28T03:00:47Z jcowan: but do any Guile or Chicken or whatever users actually use it?
2016-05-28T03:01:22Z galex-713: pierpa: why? I find it useful when incrementing anything, and when not writing in a functional style it can occurs regularly
2016-05-28T03:01:42Z jcowan: amb has been around since very early Lisp but never standardized by any Lisp variant
2016-05-28T03:01:46Z pierpa: so, write in functional style :)
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2016-05-28T03:04:22Z galex-713: jcowan: what’s amb?
2016-05-28T03:04:30Z pierpa: galex-713: indeed I would write do in a different way.  You are being too clever there
2016-05-28T03:04:37Z pierpa: *your do
2016-05-28T03:04:48Z galex-713: too clever?
2016-05-28T03:04:59Z pierpa: yes
2016-05-28T03:05:07Z jcowan: http://community.schemewiki.org/?amb
2016-05-28T03:05:09Z galex-713: pierpa: it can’t totally be functionnal because SDL is not functional :/
2016-05-28T03:05:33Z galex-713: And making things half functional can be more complex than purely functional or more imperative
2016-05-28T03:05:35Z pierpa: yes, but still you can write that code in a dumber way
2016-05-28T03:05:43Z galex-713: What do you mean?
2016-05-28T03:06:02Z jcowan: (amb 1 2) is 1, unless that gets you in trouble later, in which case things are rewound and it becomes 2
2016-05-28T03:06:10Z pierpa: like you said, bind the variables in a let
2016-05-28T03:06:43Z pierpa: jcowan, are you familiar with qobi-scheme?  there's a nice implementation of the concept, there
2016-05-28T03:07:42Z jcowan: Not familiar, no, I've seen mention of it on Siskind's page
2016-05-28T03:08:28Z pierpa: it's intertwined with his record implementation, so it gets all assignments backtrackable
2016-05-28T03:08:40Z pierpa: even to record fields, I mean
2016-05-28T03:09:46Z galex-713: interesting
2016-05-28T03:09:56Z pierpa: Ok. Must leave. Good night.
2016-05-28T03:09:56Z galex-713: pierpa: what do you mean by let?
2016-05-28T03:10:04Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-05-28T03:10:13Z galex-713: I mean, what do you mean by doing that with let
2016-05-28T03:10:22Z galex-713: ahhhh, for the do you mean
2016-05-28T03:10:26Z pierpa: yes
2016-05-28T03:10:33Z galex-713: pierpa: what should I let in the do first arg then?
2016-05-28T03:11:08Z galex-713: What’s intended to be inside the first arg of the do
2016-05-28T03:11:11Z pierpa: tbh, I wouldn't use a do at all in this case. But that's my taste.
2016-05-28T03:11:21Z pierpa: 'night :)
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2016-05-28T03:11:44Z galex-713: what? what’s tbh?
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2016-05-28T03:18:56Z dsmith: galex-713, (To Be Honest)
2016-05-28T03:19:03Z galex-713: ah ok
2016-05-28T03:19:41Z galex-713: I thought that would be useful to understand why he disappeared so suddenly
2016-05-28T03:19:52Z galex-713: oh wait ok I missed a message
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2016-05-28T15:01:31Z turtleman: jcowan: what is this "R7RS syntax expander" i saw you mention earlier? can i see its progress online?
2016-05-28T15:01:43Z turtleman: R7RS + Stalin sounds too good to be true to me (even if it has not arrived yet)
2016-05-28T15:02:24Z jcowan: THere's one inside Larceny, by what I understand, but I don't know if it's easy or hard to liberate from its context.
2016-05-28T15:02:32Z turtleman: hmm i see
2016-05-28T15:08:42Z ecraven: turtleman: just fyi, chez seems to be faster than stalin in general
2016-05-28T15:08:52Z turtleman: hmm is that so
2016-05-28T15:08:54Z ecraven: (though of course it isn't r7rs either)
2016-05-28T15:09:00Z turtleman: then i am less impressed by the idea :)
2016-05-28T15:09:10Z ecraven: http://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/benchmark.html
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2016-05-28T15:10:20Z turtleman: chez looks really nice
2016-05-28T15:10:42Z turtleman: i cant find any GUI bindings anyone made for it
2016-05-28T15:10:47Z ecraven: just keep in mind this is all benchmarks, not related to real-life performance at all :D
2016-05-28T15:10:50Z turtleman: true
2016-05-28T15:10:54Z turtleman: i will keep that in mind
2016-05-28T15:11:00Z ecraven: turtleman: there might not be any yet, but someone surely will make some soon
2016-05-28T15:11:05Z ecraven: it's only been open source for a few weeks
2016-05-28T15:11:10Z ecraven: might want to ask in #chez
2016-05-28T15:11:10Z turtleman: yes that is what i was thinking
2016-05-28T15:11:13Z turtleman: thanks
2016-05-28T15:11:19Z TheLemonMan: ecraven, chicken 4.11 is now out, time to update the benchmarks :)
2016-05-28T15:11:21Z ecraven: also, a few other schemes are really quite good on the benchmarks
2016-05-28T15:11:24Z ecraven: TheLemonMan: hehe, will do :D
2016-05-28T15:11:36Z ecraven: thanks for telling me, I don't follow all the schemes (yet)
2016-05-28T15:11:54Z TheLemonMan: it'd be nice to show the deltas across version bumps
2016-05-28T15:11:55Z turtleman: i have been using kawa lately and it has been OK
2016-05-28T15:12:11Z ecraven: it's not on the faster side of things, but it's very cool if you need to interface with Java
2016-05-28T15:12:27Z turtleman: yes, i never have to doubt the existence of some library
2016-05-28T15:12:33Z turtleman: because probably 1 person did it in java at least
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2016-05-28T15:15:13Z turtleman: any "impracticality" accusation kind of goes out the window once you have that
2016-05-28T15:15:40Z turtleman: not that racket, chicken, guile, etc. are impractical either
2016-05-28T15:20:18Z turtleman: maybe this is the kind of thing? https://github.com/mnieper/rapid-scheme
2016-05-28T15:20:28Z turtleman: it says it transpiles first
2016-05-28T15:23:06Z dTal: turtleman: I can't play with anything unless there's graphics output so I hacked up PostScript for Chez
2016-05-28T15:23:10Z jcowan: Well, syntax expander, transpiler, compiler, it's all the same idea
2016-05-28T15:23:31Z turtleman: dTal, that sounds cool!
2016-05-28T15:23:40Z turtleman: i know nothing about postscript :) except what it is
2016-05-28T15:24:00Z dTal: It's braindead simple, spawns ghostscript and pokes postscript commands down stdin
2016-05-28T15:25:34Z dTal: codepad.org/Bh3qTOnc if you want to play
2016-05-28T15:26:15Z turtleman: thanks
2016-05-28T15:26:22Z jcowan: That leads to an interesting idea for a compilation pipeline
2016-05-28T15:26:39Z dTal: uses (define-values) for multiple return values so not portable alas
2016-05-28T15:27:16Z jcowan: Start with Lisp, convert it to SSA (which is known to be equivalent to CPS, so not hard), transform the SSA to Postscript along the lines of Henry Baker's article,
2016-05-28T15:27:21Z jcowan: send it to your printer for execution!
2016-05-28T15:28:01Z jcowan: dTal: There's a portable expansion of define-values in R7RS section 7.3
2016-05-28T15:28:54Z dTal: oh and if you pass it exact values it breaks because postscript doesn't understand fractions
2016-05-28T15:30:41Z dTal: I've often thought about the equivalence of lisp and forth
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2016-05-28T15:54:27Z jcowan: Oops, that's the wrong sense of "linear" (talk about overloaded terms!) so what I said won't work, but linear Lisp in the relevant sense is interesting anyway
2016-05-28T15:57:05Z jcowan: Here's the HB paper I was talking about: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ForthStack.html
2016-05-28T15:58:01Z ecraven: hm.. just thought I'd debug my MIT/GNU Scheme FFI program with valgrind, but MIT/GNU Scheme proper throws so many valgrind warnings, this just doesn't work :-/
2016-05-28T16:00:19Z jcowan: It's pretty old code and probably long predates valgrind
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