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2015-12-31T01:26:02Z physixer: is this r7rs-large? (apply + `(,((lambda (|2+3|) #(1)2+3) #e2e3)  ,(* 120 .((*(/(+(/(* #e144#) 84))))))  ,(*(/(+ #e5/7)) 5)))
2015-12-31T01:26:19Z physixer: because if it's small then I don't want anything to do with scheme
2015-12-31T01:26:23Z taylan: there is no r7rs-large yet
2015-12-31T01:26:28Z taylan: hahaha
2015-12-31T01:27:04Z physixer: please tell me it's not r7rs-small
2015-12-31T01:27:09Z taylan: let's see ... #(1)2+3 looks wrong.  #e144# also looks wrong.  also lots of missing spaces...
2015-12-31T01:27:21Z taylan: physixer: you can write incredibly ugly code in any language.  this is certainly not normal Scheme code.
2015-12-31T01:27:43Z physixer: https://nalaginrut.com/archives/2014/03/27/a-way-to-write-shit-with-you-elegant-scheme-language
2015-12-31T01:27:43Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/j17mqZbCYH
2015-12-31T01:28:10Z taylan: haha, I know that person.  they're a Guile user, so I suppose that works on Guile.
2015-12-31T01:28:29Z taylan: physixer: as you see, they were trying to write ugly code intentionally
2015-12-31T01:28:32Z physixer: it worked in my DrRacket too
2015-12-31T01:28:34Z physixer: produced 2014
2015-12-31T01:29:21Z physixer: but I thought there's a reason they split r7rs into small and large, so variations of syntax could be reduced in small.
2015-12-31T01:29:33Z taylan: the code binds '2+3' as a variable, then #(1)2+3 kind of works.  not sure if this is standards-compliant.
2015-12-31T01:30:08Z taylan: Scheme has always had some weird syntax, especially for numbers
2015-12-31T01:30:21Z physixer: maybe we should have a r7rs-tiny
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2015-12-31T02:39:52Z physixer: I just had an amazing idea.
2015-12-31T02:40:09Z physixer: It actually ties to what I was thinking in the recent many months.
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2015-12-31T03:32:31Z physixer: what does (define S (quote (define x 1))) do? how do I (genfunc S) such that the output is (gendef x 1) or (quote (gendef x 1))?
2015-12-31T03:33:15Z physixer: I want to evaluate an s-expression by replace all scheme keywords by prefixing them with gen, e.g., gendefine, gencar, gencons, gencdr, etc
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2015-12-31T03:34:23Z physixer: then my (gendefine x 1) would output the string "(define x 1)" or "x = 1" (depending on whether I wanna generate scheme code, or python code)
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2015-12-31T03:53:02Z pjb: physixer: what does quote do?
2015-12-31T03:54:20Z pjb: (define (genfun S) (if (= 0 (random 2)) '(gendef x 1) '(quote (gendef x 1))))
2015-12-31T03:55:10Z pjb: physixer: now the question is whether you also want to perform those substitutions on eg. literal data or not.
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2015-12-31T03:55:45Z physixer: for everything other than scheme keywords I want to pass them through as they are.
2015-12-31T03:55:50Z pjb: (genify '(eval '(define x 1))) --> (defeval (quote (define x 1))) or --> (defeval (defquote (defdefine x 1))) ???
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2015-12-31T03:58:09Z physixer: well I thought quote would help make the internal s-expression some kind of literal.
2015-12-31T03:58:22Z physixer: can I do this? (define s (define x 1))?
2015-12-31T03:58:56Z pjb: (genify '(lambda (list) (display (cons 'the (cons 'list (cons 'is (cons list '()))))))) --> (genlambda (genlist) (gendisplay (gencons (genquote genthe) (gencons (genquote genlist) (gencons (genquote genis) (gencons genlist (genquote ())))))))
2015-12-31T03:59:46Z pjb: physixer: no, define doesn't return anything useful.
2015-12-31T03:59:53Z pjb: physixer: why don't you read the 50 pages of r5rs?
2015-12-31T03:59:54Z pjb: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2015-12-31T04:00:31Z physixer: ok I  will
2015-12-31T04:00:45Z pjb: I mean: (genify '(lambda (list) (display (cons 'the (cons 'list (cons 'is (cons list '()))))))) --> (genlambda (genlist) (gendisplay (gencons (genquote the) (gencons (genquote genlist) (gencons (genquote is) (gencons genlist (genquote ())))))))
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2015-12-31T04:01:25Z pjb: notice here, how the and is are not genified, but the parameter list is, as is the literal symbol list. So now the function displays (the genlist is …) instead of (the list is …).
2015-12-31T04:01:57Z pjb: physixer: more precisely, there are no scheme "keywords".
2015-12-31T04:03:26Z pjb: There are basically only two kinds of things: simple variables, like display cons list, and syntax definitions like define or if.
2015-12-31T04:04:02Z pjb: physixer: if I do (define foo list)   should (genify '(foo 1 2 3)) return (genfoo  1 2 3)? (genlist 1 2 3)?  (foo 1 2 3)?
2015-12-31T04:04:59Z physixer: just (foo 1 2 3)
2015-12-31T04:05:08Z pjb: You could collect the list of all the symbols used to name syntax in r5rs, but an implementation could provide more, and there's no standard way to 1- list all the symbols, 2- determine if a symbol is bound to a syntax or something else.
2015-12-31T04:05:46Z pjb: physixer: all right, but then (genify '(lambda (list) (cons list list))) should return what? (genlambda (list) (gencons list list)) or (lambda (genlist) (gencons genlist genlist))?
2015-12-31T04:07:13Z physixer: isn't using 'list' that way illegal?
2015-12-31T04:07:20Z pjb: Nope.
2015-12-31T04:07:25Z pjb: list is a normal variable.
2015-12-31T04:07:33Z pjb: as are car, cons, etc.
2015-12-31T04:07:47Z physixer: so can i also do this: (lambda (define) (cons define define))?
2015-12-31T04:09:09Z pjb: AFAIK, it's legal.
2015-12-31T04:09:15Z pjb: rudybot: ((lambda (define) (cons define define)) 42)
2015-12-31T04:09:16Z rudybot: pjb: your sandbox is ready
2015-12-31T04:09:16Z rudybot: pjb: ; Value: '(42 . 42)
2015-12-31T04:09:52Z pjb: ((lambda (define) (define (cons 1 2))) car)
2015-12-31T04:10:01Z pjb: this might be illegal, I don't know.
2015-12-31T04:10:41Z physixer: rudybot: (define define 1)
2015-12-31T04:10:41Z rudybot: physixer: your sandbox is ready
2015-12-31T04:10:42Z rudybot: physixer: Done.
2015-12-31T04:10:50Z physixer: rudybot: define
2015-12-31T04:10:51Z rudybot: physixer: ; Value: 1
2015-12-31T04:10:54Z physixer: wow
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2015-12-31T04:12:23Z pjb: 4.3 Macros says: "The syntactic keyword of a macro may shadow variable bindings, and local variable bindings may shadow keyword bindings." for macros.
2015-12-31T04:12:41Z physixer: define, lambda, if, cond        are different from       cons car cdr list
2015-12-31T04:12:52Z pjb: Yes.
2015-12-31T04:13:00Z physixer: first gives syntax error, second gives "#<procedure>"
2015-12-31T04:13:13Z pjb: the later are mere variables bound to proedures.  The first are syntax or special operators.
2015-12-31T04:13:32Z pjb: that is, the firsts are interpreted/processed specially by the compiler.
2015-12-31T04:13:48Z physixer: then I guess I only have problem with those: gendefine genlambda genif gencond
2015-12-31T04:14:12Z pjb: Nonetheless, the compiler still maintains the lexical shadowing needed to determine whether something like lambda means the special operator or is a mere variable (parameter).
2015-12-31T04:14:21Z pjb: physixer: a lot more.
2015-12-31T04:15:04Z pjb: physixer: and I've seen nothing in the standard saying that it limited the list of special operators, or allowed the program to introspect whether a symbol was bound to a syntax (a macro).
2015-12-31T04:15:22Z pjb: What I mean there is that I don't see any way to write a code walker in r5rs.
2015-12-31T04:15:41Z pjb: Are you sure you don't want to do that in Common Lisp instead?
2015-12-31T04:15:54Z physixer: well for a start let's keep it simple, I'm not gonna use it on programs that are doing things that I'm not aware of.
2015-12-31T04:16:25Z pjb: Perhaps a better solution would be to just provide your own bindings for r5rs operators?
2015-12-31T04:16:29Z physixer: really, r5rs is that limited compared to CL?
2015-12-31T04:16:33Z pjb: Yep.
2015-12-31T04:16:45Z physixer: what about r7rs-small?
2015-12-31T04:16:45Z pjb: 50 pages vs. 1150 pages of specifications.
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2015-12-31T04:17:22Z pjb: I've only browsed it, I couldn't say.  It looks like r7rs-small is almost as small; you'd have to consider r7rs-big I guess. Not read yet.
2015-12-31T04:22:25Z pjb: rudybot: (let ((cons (lambda (a d) (list 'cons a d)))  (car (lambda (c) (list 'car c)))  (cdr (lambda (c) (list 'cdr c))))   (car (cdr (cdr (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 '()))))))))
2015-12-31T04:22:26Z rudybot: pjb: ; Value: '(car (cdr (cdr (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 ())))))))
2015-12-31T04:23:27Z pjb: but then of course, if you need to call r5rs eval you need to provide an environment and there's no standard way to get or build environments. So instead you have to implement your own environments and your own eval.
2015-12-31T04:24:12Z pjb: (Not that this part is easier in CL, but in CL you can use the package system, so that car is not CL:CAR but YOUR:CAR, etc.)
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2015-12-31T10:16:16Z Necrosporus: Is lisp macros a complex idea or it's just a special kind of function which gets its arguments like if they were preceded by quotation?
2015-12-31T10:25:15Z ggole_: Macro systems in scheme are a bit more complex than that
2015-12-31T10:25:58Z pjb: Necrosporus: it's a trivial idea.
2015-12-31T10:26:11Z pjb: But it's not like you say.
2015-12-31T10:28:20Z ggole_: fexprs are a bit like that though
2015-12-31T10:29:54Z pjb: Necrosporus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304248
2015-12-31T10:30:09Z pjb: Yes, fexprs.
2015-12-31T10:31:59Z Necrosporus: Let's say there were a special form, which works just like (define), except that if it were invoked like a regular function it would get its argument verbatim and its return value is evaluated in the place of macro call
2015-12-31T10:32:05Z pjb: Macros are compiler hooks.  They let you transform some form into some other form, before compilation.  They're normal functions, only of the type form -> form.
2015-12-31T10:32:25Z Necrosporus: What is a form?
2015-12-31T10:32:33Z pjb: a sexp intended to be executed.
2015-12-31T10:32:56Z pjb: So yes, form -> form == T -> T
2015-12-31T10:33:12Z Necrosporus: But isn't that same as I described two messages earlier?
2015-12-31T10:33:29Z pjb: The difference is that it is not done while executing the form, but while compiling it.
2015-12-31T10:33:52Z pjb: Therefore there's no quotation involved, since there's simply no evaluation of the arguments, since there's no execution.
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2015-12-31T10:34:09Z pjb: The macro function gets the source sexp as argument.
2015-12-31T10:35:01Z Necrosporus: source of entire program or a (macro-call (some expr) (other expr)) ?
2015-12-31T10:35:23Z pjb: just  (macro-call (some expr) (other expr)).
2015-12-31T10:35:50Z pjb: If you have a macro named macro-call then the macro function gets the sexp (macro-call (some expr) (other expr)) as argument.
2015-12-31T10:36:18Z pjb: This is hidden behind the &whole parameter in CL.  The rest of the macro lambda list is actually a destructuring of this single sexp argument.
2015-12-31T10:37:19Z Necrosporus: pjb, you are talking about CL and demonstrating examples while we are on #scheme... I'm not sure if I want to learn two flavors of lisp at once
2015-12-31T10:38:16Z pjb: Well, you asked for lisp macros.  r5rs doesn't have lisp macros. It has syntax definitions.
2015-12-31T10:38:38Z Necrosporus: Is it possible to take it's own name from a function define?
2015-12-31T10:38:55Z pjb: Those are 'hygienic "macros"'.  They're not scheme functions since they are not implemented in a syntax definition DSL.
2015-12-31T10:39:10Z pjb: What "it"?
2015-12-31T10:39:31Z Necrosporus: (define (hello-world) (some-thing-what-prints hello-world))
2015-12-31T10:39:35Z pjb: But you can implement usual lisp macros, with something similar to what I pasted.
2015-12-31T10:40:09Z pjb: Basically, you have to code walk the code, leaving the special operators alones, and processing the macros you have in your dictionary.
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2015-12-31T10:42:10Z pjb: Necrosporus: you could define a syntax definition that would let you do something like that (define-named-function (hello-world) (… self-name …))
2015-12-31T10:42:30Z Necrosporus: but it's not present by default?
2015-12-31T10:42:52Z pjb: Nope.
2015-12-31T10:43:09Z pjb: Well, as I wrote it it wouldn't  be hygienic.
2015-12-31T10:44:03Z pjb: You could do something like: (define-named-function my-name (hello-world) (… my-name …))
2015-12-31T10:46:54Z Necrosporus: But if function was defined via regular (define) there's no way for it to know its own name?
2015-12-31T10:47:08Z kephra: Necrosporus, lisp macros and scheme syntax are different - a lisp macro is just a special form that outputs something to eval at runtime
2015-12-31T10:47:32Z pjb: Necrosporus: yes, it's too late.
2015-12-31T10:47:33Z kephra: a scheme syntax definition is extending the syntax of the compiler
2015-12-31T10:47:40Z pjb: Also, a function doesn't have a name.
2015-12-31T10:47:51Z pjb: (define kar car) (kar (cons 1 2)) --> 1
2015-12-31T10:48:09Z pjb: what would the name of that function be? kar? car? first?
2015-12-31T10:48:13Z Necrosporus: ok, it could get the name under which is was called the last time
2015-12-31T10:48:28Z Necrosporus: in this case kar because it was called as kar
2015-12-31T10:48:39Z kephra: pjb, functions could have names, but those are only for humans to debug them - e.g. (define (myfun f b) ...) might give the function a name
2015-12-31T10:48:40Z pjb: Identifiers are thrown away. In compiled code you only have left addresses.
2015-12-31T10:49:12Z Necrosporus: is scheme compiled into machine code, not jit or interpreter?
2015-12-31T10:49:21Z kephra: depends on implementation
2015-12-31T10:49:40Z Necrosporus: are there  implementation that compile scheme into pure machine code?
2015-12-31T10:49:47Z pjb: of course.
2015-12-31T10:50:10Z kephra: Scheme is more compiler friendly then Lisp, because syntax rules could be compiled
2015-12-31T10:50:31Z Necrosporus: There are languages which cannot be compiled
2015-12-31T10:50:41Z Necrosporus: Perl5 for example
2015-12-31T10:50:45Z kephra: R4RS does not even have eval
2015-12-31T10:51:01Z kephra: so an R4 does not need an interpreter at all
2015-12-31T10:51:38Z kephra: R5 requires an addition interpreter
2015-12-31T10:51:45Z pjb: and in CL (defun eval (sexp) (funcall (compile nil `(lambda () ,sexp)))) is a valid implementation of eval, so you don't need an interpreter at all.
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2015-12-31T10:52:05Z pjb: kephra: I don't see what in r5rs would prevent an implementation of eval different than this CL eval.
2015-12-31T10:52:48Z kephra: true - but I think its more common to skip the compile for eval
2015-12-31T10:52:56Z kephra: *could be totally wrong*
2015-12-31T10:54:05Z Necrosporus: but sexpr could be altered by user input
2015-12-31T10:54:23Z pjb: So what?
2015-12-31T10:55:06Z Necrosporus: It means that every binary produced by scheme compiler has to have scheme interpreter built-in?
2015-12-31T10:55:16Z Necrosporus: or not?
2015-12-31T10:56:16Z Necrosporus: Would code which does not run eval on anything which is derived from runtime environment be optimized in such a way it does not have any interpreters within?
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2015-12-31T10:58:26Z pjb: No, it needs to have an eval function.
2015-12-31T10:58:41Z pjb: But as I shown, eval can be implemented with a compiler.
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2015-12-31T10:59:22Z pjb: Of course, if the compiler can show that eval or the compiler is never called, then it can prune the compiler.
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2015-12-31T11:01:09Z Necrosporus: Is it possible to make scheme compiler produce code which is faster than code produced by code implementing same algorithm in C?
2015-12-31T11:02:19Z Necrosporus: I mean, like make scheme implementation compiled into executable which for example computes math stuff in less time than C code
2015-12-31T11:02:30Z Necrosporus: or which uses less memory
2015-12-31T11:02:41Z pjb: Yes.
2015-12-31T11:02:46Z pjb: have a look at staline.
2015-12-31T11:03:03Z Necrosporus: but is stalin compiled by itself?
2015-12-31T11:03:11Z pjb: Yes.
2015-12-31T11:04:12Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_%28Scheme_implementation%29
2015-12-31T11:08:41Z Necrosporus: https://github.com/barak/stalin this page says it's extremely limited
2015-12-31T11:09:31Z jackdaniel: Necrosporus: it depends on the compiler. C or Scheme is just a form of expressing ideas. Scheme allows you to express ideas in ways unreachable by C (given reasonable effort). How fast executables are is a question of compiler optimizations
2015-12-31T11:10:22Z Necrosporus: but it might be that some expressive powers of languages make efficient compilation theoretically impossible
2015-12-31T11:11:13Z jackdaniel: yes, I doubt it's a case with scheme. Also you may make your program faster purely by architectural gain (possible thanks to more expressive constructs)
2015-12-31T11:11:17Z Necrosporus: So it might be that some languages could not be compiled efficiently at all due to their innate nature
2015-12-31T11:12:13Z pjb: It doesn't matter.
2015-12-31T11:12:51Z jackdaniel: yes, you are right - some freedom may come with a cost. Forgive me the CL example, but metaobject protocol for instance imposes some limitations on optimizations you may perform
2015-12-31T11:13:30Z jackdaniel: but as I said - I doubt it's a case with scheme at all, and it affects CL only in a few very specific use-cases
2015-12-31T11:14:06Z jackdaniel: either way, have a nice day and a great New Years eve party :) o/
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2015-12-31T11:32:57Z jusss: pjb: hi, how to compare two symbol? like (eqv? (car '('|(| '+ '1 '1 '|)|)) '|(|)
2015-12-31T11:33:52Z jusss: I think about symbol, and it's still not clear for me, 'a is (quote a) is a list, but the return value of (quote a) is a symbol
2015-12-31T11:35:52Z nalaginrut: jusss:  a simple answer is that it's converted to symbol after read according to a rule like (quote a) => (symbol "a"), depends on implementation
2015-12-31T11:36:03Z jusss: "(+ 1 1)" now I can turn it to ('|(| '+ '1 '1 '|)|) , if I can match '|(|, and I think I can turn it to '(+ 1 1) use (list '+ '1 '1) or (cons '+ ...)
2015-12-31T11:39:12Z jusss: nalaginrut: so do you think 'a is a symbol ?
2015-12-31T11:39:39Z jusss: my misunderstand, it's not
2015-12-31T11:40:56Z nalaginrut: jusss:  'a is special form to convert "a" to a symbol
2015-12-31T11:41:12Z jusss: nalaginrut: yes, you're right
2015-12-31T11:41:15Z nalaginrut: it's actually (quote a) after read
2015-12-31T11:44:13Z jusss: nalaginrut: do you know how to compare symbols like this (eqv? (car '('|(| '+ '1 '1 '|)|)) '|(|) but this get #f
2015-12-31T11:45:33Z jusss: there's a list '('|(| '+ '1 '1 '|)|)) ,how I can match the first element ?
2015-12-31T11:46:25Z jusss: or ('|(| '+ '1 '1 '|)|))
2015-12-31T11:50:47Z nalaginrut: jusss:  a quick and dirty method to use eqv? is just to compare numbers and chars with it
2015-12-31T11:51:24Z nalaginrut: jusss:  and for strings and lists, use equal?
2015-12-31T11:52:00Z nalaginrut: jusss:  the rest are all use eq? This is not the best way to understand them, but practical and safer
2015-12-31T11:52:30Z jusss: nalaginrut: which procedure you suggest to compare symbols ?
2015-12-31T11:52:52Z nalaginrut: jusss:  you should reduce it according to the rule I gave you
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2015-12-31T11:56:59Z nalaginrut: jusss:  and in your case, the correct representation of the list is '(|(| + 1 1 |)|)
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2015-12-31T11:57:29Z nalaginrut: jusss:  you have redundant quote in the list, which may confuse the parser
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2015-12-31T11:57:39Z jusss: nalaginrut: no, it's ('|(| '+ '1 '1 '|)|)
2015-12-31T11:57:50Z jusss: nalaginrut: a list of symbols
2015-12-31T11:57:59Z nalaginrut: yes it is
2015-12-31T11:58:40Z nalaginrut: numbers never become symbols
2015-12-31T11:58:41Z jusss: if I cant match '|(|, then I can turn it to '(+ 1 1)
2015-12-31T11:59:22Z nalaginrut: could you just try '(|(| + 1 1 |)|)? I have to go now
2015-12-31T11:59:25Z jusss: ok, I know '1 => 1
2015-12-31T11:59:55Z jusss: nalaginrut: no, ('|(| '+ 1 1 '|)|)
2015-12-31T12:00:44Z jusss: because it get from (string->symbol "(")  (string->symbol "+") ...
2015-12-31T12:01:17Z nalaginrut: (eqv? (car '(|(| + 1 1 |)|)) '|(|)
2015-12-31T12:01:18Z jusss: put this elements in a list, so it's like ('|(| '+ 1 1 '|)|)
2015-12-31T12:02:32Z jusss: now I see, I compare two lists, not symbols
2015-12-31T12:03:23Z jusss: (list? (car '('|(| '+ '1 '1 '|)|))) => #t
2015-12-31T12:03:29Z nalaginrut: jusss:  if the implementation you use has pattern matching, it may save your time, but it's unnecessary
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2015-12-31T12:10:30Z jusss: yor're right, it should be (|(| + 1 1 |)|)
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2015-12-31T12:11:58Z jusss: racket@> (string->symbol "(") => '|(|, it's a symbol, not a list
2015-12-31T12:12:50Z jusss: '|(| let me think it's a list, I was wrong
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2015-12-31T12:46:51Z Necrosporus: Is there a list of special forms which would be list of scheme axioms? I have read paper about original lisp, it's based on quote, atom (which also true for () ), eq, cdr, car, cons, cond, lambda, and label/define
2015-12-31T12:47:12Z Necrosporus: Is scheme derived from same basic operations/forms or not?
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2015-12-31T13:34:24Z kephra: Necrosporus, there area few differences, when it comes to nil
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2015-12-31T13:36:00Z kephra: scheme has no concept of nil - in lisp a car of nil is nil, in scheme a (car '()) is an error
2015-12-31T13:36:23Z kephra: some scheme look likes (e.g. mine) relax this
2015-12-31T13:36:44Z Necrosporus: Strict is usually better
2015-12-31T13:36:46Z kephra: scheme coders wont notice, and lisp coders dont need to change their habit
2015-12-31T13:37:03Z kephra: but I also call it a Scheme look like, not a Scheme
2015-12-31T13:37:14Z Necrosporus: Like allows to spot errors earlier
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2015-12-31T13:37:36Z Necrosporus: What's your scheme look-like called?
2015-12-31T13:37:43Z kephra: o3db.com
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2015-12-31T13:38:24Z kephra: take a look at the HTML source of the demos
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2015-12-31T13:43:32Z Necrosporus: kephra, are there microcore implementations of scheme?
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2015-12-31T13:45:18Z Necrosporus: Like if I write some trivial code in other programming language to parse source tree and evaluate several core functions the other ones could be derived from them and form a complete scheme implementation?
2015-12-31T13:50:27Z wasamasa: it's not that simple
2015-12-31T13:50:33Z wasamasa: you'll at the very least need TCO
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2015-12-31T13:53:04Z Necrosporus: wasamasa, not necessarily
2015-12-31T13:53:20Z Necrosporus: I mean, of course it's preferred to have it, but programs will work without fine
2015-12-31T13:53:37Z wasamasa: no they won't
2015-12-31T13:53:44Z wasamasa: idiomatic scheme code relies on it
2015-12-31T13:54:02Z Necrosporus: What do you mean?
2015-12-31T13:54:49Z Necrosporus: Ofc without tco you won't be able to run code relying on anything bigger than a thousand of cycles or something
2015-12-31T13:55:03Z davexunit: without TCO, you do not have a Scheme implementation.
2015-12-31T13:55:04Z Necrosporus: but it won't change semantics of programs which still work
2015-12-31T13:55:27Z Necrosporus: ok, some language provide native tail call optimization anyway
2015-12-31T13:55:45Z nalaginrut: folks, Scheme needs proper tail call, the common TCO is not enough
2015-12-31T13:56:01Z davexunit: tail-call *semantics* are required
2015-12-31T13:56:04Z davexunit: it's not just an optimization
2015-12-31T13:56:05Z Necrosporus: But either way, is there some minimal Scheme standard, which could be used to derive the rest?
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2015-12-31T13:57:07Z Necrosporus: Like that I won't have to go through entire r7rs or something, but implement only a limited subset and then using some already written scheme code to cover the rest?
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2015-12-31T13:59:57Z Necrosporus: I am thinking about implementing something minimal
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2015-12-31T14:00:47Z Necrosporus: And probably I could even implement numbers as trees of empty lists
2015-12-31T14:01:04Z wasamasa: so you want to reinvent arrowlisp?
2015-12-31T14:01:15Z wasamasa: https://github.com/wasamasa/arrowlisp
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2015-12-31T14:04:09Z Necrosporus: Not quite
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2015-12-31T14:04:32Z Necrosporus: Something more minimal than that
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2015-12-31T14:04:51Z Necrosporus: With just about a 100 lines of non-lisp code
2015-12-31T14:05:18Z wasamasa rolls eyes
2015-12-31T14:05:21Z wasamasa: that's not scheme then
2015-12-31T14:05:31Z wasamasa: that's, uh
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2015-12-31T14:05:37Z wasamasa finds another minimal thing
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2015-12-31T14:06:21Z Necrosporus: wasamasa, I'm thinking about something which could be in principle extended to became complete scheme
2015-12-31T14:06:34Z Necrosporus: by adding only lisp code
2015-12-31T14:07:10Z Necrosporus: Even though it's going to be painfully small, given that it would not have native numbers and stuff
2015-12-31T14:07:18Z Necrosporus: * slow
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2015-12-31T14:55:49Z kephra: Necrosporus, 100 lines of ASM or C to implement a garbage collector and cps style interpreter/compiler would be a challenge
2015-12-31T14:56:25Z kephra: imho, continuation passing style perfectly fits for Scheme, as both TCO and call-cc come for cheap
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