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2015-12-30T07:47:25Z AlphaFuze: could some1 here please help me with getting scheme on my computer?
2015-12-30T07:48:21Z nalaginrut: AlphaFuze:  what's your operating system?
2015-12-30T07:48:33Z AlphaFuze: windows 64-bit
2015-12-30T07:48:41Z AlphaFuze: windows 8.1 to be more specific
2015-12-30T07:49:19Z nalaginrut: oh, then maybe you could choose http://racket-lang.org/download/
2015-12-30T07:50:43Z AlphaFuze: I saw racket, but wasn't sure if it was better to go with that or mit-gnu scheme.
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2015-12-30T08:06:23Z AlphaFuze: has anyone here ever used chez scheme?  I'm hesitant to use racket because it piles a lot of unnecessary stuff that I won't need if I'm only learning scheme.
2015-12-30T08:10:07Z nalaginrut: AlphaFuze:  if you just want to learn Scheme in Racket, you can do that http://www.neilvandyke.org/racket-sicp/
2015-12-30T08:10:44Z nalaginrut: AlphaFuze:  and if you don't mind to install a Linux, you may choose GNU Guile too
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2015-12-30T08:17:39Z AlphaFuze: alright, thanks.
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2015-12-30T13:44:16Z Necrosporus: What's the difference between clojure and regular result of higher-order function?
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2015-12-30T13:44:25Z Necrosporus: rudybot, (define (make-adder n) (lambda (x) (+ x n)))
2015-12-30T13:44:26Z rudybot: Necrosporus: your sandbox is ready
2015-12-30T13:44:28Z rudybot: Necrosporus: Done.
2015-12-30T13:44:55Z Necrosporus: rudybot, (define inc (make-adder 1))
2015-12-30T13:44:55Z rudybot: Necrosporus: Done.
2015-12-30T13:45:13Z Necrosporus: rudybot, (inc 29)
2015-12-30T13:45:14Z rudybot: Necrosporus: ; Value: 30
2015-12-30T13:46:02Z ggole: I take it you mean closure, not the JVM language
2015-12-30T13:46:13Z Necrosporus: yes
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2015-12-30T13:47:02Z ggole: Closure refers to when a lambda contains a reference to a variable bound outside the lambda
2015-12-30T13:47:35Z ggole: Higher order functions are functions that take or return functions.
2015-12-30T13:50:33Z Necrosporus: Let's say there is: let adder: int -> int -> int = (fn n x => n+x)
2015-12-30T13:51:16Z Necrosporus: Then we define another function:  let inc: int -> int = adder 1
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2015-12-30T13:51:51Z Necrosporus: Then we could use (inc 29) to get 30 just like in example above
2015-12-30T13:51:59Z Necrosporus: ggole, would it be a closure too?
2015-12-30T13:52:06Z ggole: Yep
2015-12-30T13:52:31Z ggole: Because a "two argument" SML function is actually a one argument function that returns another function
2015-12-30T13:53:18Z ggole: That is, in fn a => fn b => a + b, the inner function refers to a variable bound outside of itself in the same way that the Scheme function did.
2015-12-30T13:53:24Z Necrosporus: Then I do not get what is special about closures, if they are just regular functions with partial application
2015-12-30T13:54:12Z ggole: One of the major differences here is that scheme variables are mutable
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2015-12-30T13:54:46Z ggole: But really the benefit of closures is that you can write code like the SML example easily.
2015-12-30T13:59:38Z Necrosporus: ggole, but Scheme's n-arg functions are not same as a function which returns another function?
2015-12-30T14:00:02Z ggole: Nope.
2015-12-30T14:00:19Z ggole: Currying is very explicit in scheme.
2015-12-30T14:00:48Z Necrosporus: So, do I take it right, that closure is a way to implement things one would use currying for if it was supported?
2015-12-30T14:01:21Z ggole: Closures are a way to implement functions that have variables bound outside their scope.
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2015-12-30T14:01:32Z ggole: SML-style curried functions are one example of when that happens.
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2015-12-30T14:06:18Z Necrosporus: ggole, as far as I see, variables are used mostly as notation, they are not variables, actually, but rather labels for arguments
2015-12-30T14:06:46Z Necrosporus: in some languages you can write all of that without variables
2015-12-30T14:07:41Z Necrosporus: let add = (+); let inc = add 1; let x = inc 29
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2015-12-30T14:08:45Z ggole: If you think so, consider (define (make-mutable-adder n) (cons (lambda (z) (set! n z)) (lambda (x) (+ x n))))
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2015-12-30T14:10:37Z Necrosporus: ggole, but isn't not functional programming any more if you use variables as regular variables instead of labels?
2015-12-30T14:11:21Z ggole: You are certainly no longer programming in the pure subset of Scheme if you do what I did.
2015-12-30T14:12:58Z ggole: In the pure subset of Scheme, arguably variables are just labels for values and don't behave like locations at all.
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2015-12-30T14:15:44Z Necrosporus: ggole, is it possible to use tacit notation in Scheme?
2015-12-30T14:16:20Z ggole: I'm not sure what you mean by tacit notation.
2015-12-30T14:16:35Z Necrosporus: In some languages, like J it's possible to define functions in term of composing other functions in different ways without using labels for arguments at all
2015-12-30T14:16:49Z wasamasa: ggole: how dare you're not intimately familiar with haskell!
2015-12-30T14:17:01Z ggole: Oh, you mean point-free style
2015-12-30T14:17:31Z Necrosporus: wasamasa, I am not familiar with Haskell, though I have learned J for a little
2015-12-30T14:17:49Z ggole: I would say it is possible but probably not useful
2015-12-30T14:18:19Z ggole: You could write a library of combinators, but they would not interact nicely with Scheme's native n-ary and variadic functions.
2015-12-30T14:18:47Z Necrosporus: It's like Scheme does not have currying ?
2015-12-30T14:19:16Z Necrosporus: I guess it's impossible to combine currying with variadic functions
2015-12-30T14:19:17Z wasamasa: it may be a bit hard to believe, but scheme is not J or haskell or what-have-you
2015-12-30T14:19:49Z wasamasa: you can of course bludgeon it into submission, but eh
2015-12-30T14:20:05Z ggole: You can write curried functions in Scheme, but it won't mesh well with what is already there
2015-12-30T14:20:14Z Necrosporus: How?
2015-12-30T14:20:33Z ggole: Because all of the basic operations are provided in uncurried form.
2015-12-30T14:21:53Z ggole: And the syntax of Scheme is not designed to make either defining or applying curried functions as smooth as it is in ML (or Haskell, or etc)
2015-12-30T14:22:26Z ggole: It's (lambda (a) (lambda (b) ...)) and ((f x) y) instead of fun a b -> ... and f x y
2015-12-30T14:23:13Z wasamasa: perhaps you could abuse cut/cute
2015-12-30T14:23:13Z ggole: (Wait, that's fn a b => ... - I think I just outed myself as an OCaml programmer.)
2015-12-30T14:23:46Z Necrosporus: I think that OCaml is fine
2015-12-30T14:24:00Z Necrosporus: I have read a book about OCaml and tried examples
2015-12-30T14:24:02Z ggole: Yeah, or you could provide some macros. I think you're right to suggest that it would be abuse.
2015-12-30T14:24:17Z Necrosporus: Though I somehow discovered that I forgot all of it
2015-12-30T14:25:07Z Necrosporus: I have also read OCaml and SML comparison because I wanted to run SML examples, and had only OCaml installed
2015-12-30T14:25:37Z ggole: They're much the same until you get into odd corners of the languages.
2015-12-30T14:25:38Z Necrosporus: So I do not really remember what is from OCaml and what's from SML, and what is from Haskell and use them interchageably
2015-12-30T14:25:57Z Necrosporus: Though slightly different syntax for fn, fun, function
2015-12-30T14:26:15Z Necrosporus: -> vs => and so on
2015-12-30T14:31:25Z pjb: (apply + (list (f) (g))) ; works nicely with n-ary functions. It's even primitive, no need for a library.
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2015-12-30T14:37:06Z Necrosporus: I understand that Scheme is not same as *ML/Haskell, but what does make it different beside simpler syntax?
2015-12-30T14:39:06Z davexunit: Necrosporus: latent typing instead of static typing, for example.
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2015-12-30T15:37:45Z jusss: hi there, if there's a list like ('+ 1 2) and how I can eval it like (+ 1 2) ?
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2015-12-30T15:39:11Z ggole: (apply (car list) (cdr list))
2015-12-30T15:40:22Z ggole: Or possibly eval, depending on what this form might look like
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2015-12-30T15:56:05Z jusss: ggole: get error mesg, '+ is not a procedure
2015-12-30T15:58:03Z jusss: ggole: I turn a string like "(+ 1 1)" to a list ('+ '1 '1), now I'd like to eval it like eval (+ 1 1)
2015-12-30T15:58:16Z ggole: O_o
2015-12-30T15:58:20Z ggole: Well, remove the quotes first
2015-12-30T15:58:22Z jusss: but I don't know how to transform
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2015-12-30T16:00:04Z jusss: ggole: how
2015-12-30T16:01:11Z ggole: jusss: figure out how to turn '1 into 1. Then, figure out how to do that for each element of the list.
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2015-12-30T16:03:53Z jusss: ggole: "(+ 1 1)", I can split it turn to ("+" "1" "1") then string->symbol can turn to ('+ '1 '1)
2015-12-30T16:04:58Z jusss: turn '1 into 1, is there symbol->number or what ? and it sounds not good
2015-12-30T16:05:17Z jusss: my thought is really bad
2015-12-30T16:05:47Z jusss: so how to turn "(+ 1 1)" to '(+ 1 1) ?
2015-12-30T16:06:14Z ggole: '1 is (quote 1), which you can get the second element of easily enough
2015-12-30T16:07:04Z ggole: I don't think there's a standard facility to read a sexp from a string though
2015-12-30T16:10:56Z jusss: ggole: do repl work like this ? read a string and eval
2015-12-30T16:15:04Z profan_: ggole: read from string port?
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2015-12-30T16:22:46Z pjb: jusss: you need to use map to remove the quoted form: (map (lambda (quoted-form) (cadr quoted-form)) '('+ '1 '2)) #| --> (+ 1 2) |#
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2015-12-30T16:24:11Z pjb: jusss: but it's idiotic to turn a string like "(+ 1 2)" into a list ('+ '1 '2). It would be saner to turn it into a list (+ 1 2) directly.
2015-12-30T16:24:41Z jusss: pjb: how ?
2015-12-30T16:24:58Z pjb: read from string port.
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2015-12-30T16:25:05Z pjb: in CL, just use read-from-string.
2015-12-30T16:25:13Z jusss: pjb: and scheme ?
2015-12-30T16:25:23Z pjb: in scheme read from string port.
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2015-12-30T16:26:59Z pjb: jusss: now, of course, string ports are not standard r5rs, so you would first save the string to a file then reopen the file and read from it.
2015-12-30T16:27:26Z jusss: pjb: how repl works ?
2015-12-30T16:27:53Z pjb: you launch a scheme implementation and type stuff
2015-12-30T16:28:52Z jusss: pjb: so repl don't receive your input stuff as strings ?
2015-12-30T16:29:38Z pjb: No, it uses read directly. REPL = (loop (print (eval (read)))).
2015-12-30T16:30:41Z pjb: jusss: you may find string ports in your implementation extensions.
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2015-12-30T16:31:01Z jusss: pjb: now I'm using racket
2015-12-30T16:31:51Z pjb: jusss: but it would be an impair to read lines as strings, to read them again with a string port, because this would prevent to write sexps over multiple lines (or make it exponentially more difficult for you to deal with).
2015-12-30T16:31:57Z pjb: Then read racket doc.
2015-12-30T16:31:59Z jusss: pjb: I have a little confused about symbol type, like (define a 10) so a is symbol type ?
2015-12-30T16:32:44Z pjb: a is a symbol, naming a variable, bound to a lisp object. That lisp object is of type integer, and of value 10.
2015-12-30T16:32:45Z jusss: I don't remember there's symbol type in other languages like c or python
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2015-12-30T16:33:35Z wasamasa: it is there in ruby though
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2015-12-30T16:37:08Z pjb: in MIT scheme, you can write a REPL as: (let ((env (make-top-level-environment))) (let loop () (display (eval (read) env)) (newline) (loop)))
2015-12-30T16:37:58Z jusss: pjb: can I turn 'a to a ?
2015-12-30T16:38:10Z pjb: (cadr ''a) #| --> a |#
2015-12-30T16:38:39Z pjb: (list 'quote 'a) #| --> 'a |#
2015-12-30T16:38:42Z pjb: (cadr (list 'quote 'a)) #| --> a |#
2015-12-30T16:39:07Z jusss: pjb: no, it's still 'a
2015-12-30T16:39:09Z pjb: Again, you should not have 'a. You should have a.
2015-12-30T16:39:13Z pjb: It is much more complex to have 'a.
2015-12-30T16:39:58Z pjb: 'a is a form: it's a data list representing some code.  To obtain it, you have to write a program to build this data representing code. Such as (list 'quote 'a).
2015-12-30T16:40:24Z pjb: Instead just use a.
2015-12-30T16:40:29Z jusss: pjb: so where string->symbol is expected to use ?
2015-12-30T16:40:50Z pjb: (string->symbol "a") #| --> a |#
2015-12-30T16:41:09Z pjb: (list 'quote (string->symbol "a")) #| --> 'a |# ;see, much more complex.
2015-12-30T16:41:33Z jusss: pjb: if a don't exist, so what's the meaning of (string->symbol "a")
2015-12-30T16:41:48Z pjb: (string->symbol "a") returns a symbol named "a".
2015-12-30T16:42:02Z pjb: (string->symbol "a") #| --> a |#
2015-12-30T16:42:40Z pjb: scheme is really too limited.  in CL: (type-of (intern "A")) #| --> symbol |#
2015-12-30T16:42:42Z jusss: so here's the stuff to make me confused, 'a is a symbol, also it's a variable name
2015-12-30T16:43:10Z pjb: No. 'a is a list: (list? ''a) #| --> #t |#
2015-12-30T16:43:31Z pjb: a is a symbol: (symbol? 'a) #| --> #t |#
2015-12-30T16:43:42Z jusss: pjb: and 'a is a procedure ?
2015-12-30T16:43:52Z pjb: No, 'a is a list: (list? ''a) #| --> #t |#
2015-12-30T16:44:19Z pjb: (car ''a) #| --> quote |#  (cadr ''a) #| --> a |#  (length ''a) #| --> 2 |#
2015-12-30T16:44:28Z pjb: (cdr ''a) #| --> (a) |#
2015-12-30T16:44:40Z jusss: ok then, now 'a is a symbol, a variable name, (quote a), and list you said
2015-12-30T16:44:49Z ggole: 'a is not a symbol
2015-12-30T16:44:50Z pjb: (list 'quotex 'a) #| --> (quotex a) |#  (list 'quote 'a) #| --> 'a |#
2015-12-30T16:45:23Z pjb: don't let the lisp printer confuse you. It prints lists such as (quote a) as 'a:  '(quote a) #| --> a |# But it's still a list containing the two symbols quote and a.
2015-12-30T16:45:34Z jusss: ggole: if it's not a symbol, so what's it ?
2015-12-30T16:45:40Z pjb: a list
2015-12-30T16:46:09Z pjb: Type: (list? (read)) RET 'a RET
2015-12-30T16:46:14Z pjb: Type: (symbol? (read)) RET 'a RET
2015-12-30T16:46:22Z pjb: what do you get for each?
2015-12-30T16:46:38Z ggole: Yep, it's shorthand for the form (quote a)
2015-12-30T16:46:40Z jusss: now what's symbol really
2015-12-30T16:46:55Z pjb: a is a symbol.  quote is a symbol.  foo is a symbol.
2015-12-30T16:47:26Z jusss: that's why lisp called symbol-expression ?
2015-12-30T16:47:29Z pjb: + is a symbol. * is a symbol.  --*-- is a symbol.
2015-12-30T16:47:45Z jusss: because everything is symbol in lisp ?
2015-12-30T16:47:47Z pjb: 42<35 is a symbol.
2015-12-30T16:47:50Z pjb: jusss: nope.
2015-12-30T16:48:05Z jusss: and I found the concept is not easy to understand
2015-12-30T16:48:14Z pjb: #t is not a symbol. 42 is not a symbol. #(1 2 3) is not a symbol.  (a b c) is not a symbol. 'a is not a symbol.
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2015-12-30T16:50:12Z jusss: pjb: and symbol is easy to understand in cl ?
2015-12-30T16:50:31Z jusss: it's not between scheme and cl ?
2015-12-30T16:50:40Z pjb: jusss: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_sec_6.3.3  says that: "The rules for writing a symbol are exactly the same as the rules for writing an identifier; see sections 2.1 and 7.1.1." and http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-5.html#%_sec_2.1 gives the rules.
2015-12-30T16:50:40Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/0MwuZhjr2C
2015-12-30T16:50:40Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/d7ZYtcV4AF
2015-12-30T16:50:58Z pjb: jusss: r5rs is fucking 50 pages only.  You can read 50 pages can't you?
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2015-12-30T16:52:27Z jusss: pjb: ok then, so 'a is not a symbol, and why (string->symbol "a") return 'a ?
2015-12-30T16:52:48Z pjb: CL is easier because you have more standardized tools, including introspection tools such as inspect, type-of, etc.  REPL can be written conformingly as (loop (print (eval (read)))) instead of (let ((env (make-top-level-environment))) (let loop () (display (eval (read) env)) (newline) (loop)))  which is not standard because interaction-environment is not mandatory by r5rs.
2015-12-30T16:52:57Z pjb: jusss: it does not.
2015-12-30T16:53:03Z pjb: (string->symbol "a")  returns a.
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2015-12-30T16:53:18Z pjb: You may be using a deficient implementation that prints 'a instead of a, but it's a.
2015-12-30T16:53:51Z pierpa: he uses an implementation whose output format can be taylored in several ways
2015-12-30T16:53:54Z pjb: racket contains a lot of deficient languages, supposedly pedagogical, but they confuse things more than anything.
2015-12-30T16:54:11Z ggole: There are several implementations which do that.
2015-12-30T16:54:13Z pierpa: some of which looks really obnoxious :)
2015-12-30T16:54:20Z pjb: and dumb.
2015-12-30T16:54:36Z jusss: pjb: (symbol? 'foo)                  ===>  #t
2015-12-30T16:54:40Z ggole: I don't think the decision was made without thought, but I really don't care for it myself.
2015-12-30T16:54:53Z pjb: jusss: here, the object tested is foo.
2015-12-30T16:55:40Z pjb: ggole: deficient thought.
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2015-12-30T16:56:03Z pjb: It ignores the modularity of the lisp reader.
2015-12-30T16:56:04Z jusss: pjb: I will try this (string->symbol "a") in guile
2015-12-30T16:58:52Z pjb: What did you get for
2015-12-30T16:58:52Z pjb: Type: (list? (read)) RET 'a RET
2015-12-30T16:58:52Z pjb: Type: (symbol? (read)) RET 'a RET
2015-12-30T16:58:56Z pjb:  
2015-12-30T16:58:59Z pjb: >
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2015-12-30T16:59:46Z jusss: pjb: in guile, (define a 10) (symbol? a) => #f
2015-12-30T17:00:27Z jusss: pjb: in guile, 'a => a, (string->symbol "a") => a, (car (cdr ''a)) => a
2015-12-30T17:00:29Z pjb: yes, 10 is not a symbol
2015-12-30T17:00:46Z pjb: (define sym 'a) (symbol? sym) -> #f
2015-12-30T17:01:01Z pjb: 10 is an integer.
2015-12-30T17:01:12Z pjb: have you read 2.1?
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2015-12-30T17:02:42Z pjb: Notice that by 2.1 42<35 is not a standard identifier, but implementation dependant. It could be something else than a symbol in a different implementation. DUH.  In CL it's a symbol by standard.
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2015-12-30T17:07:17Z jusss: now I'm totally confused about identifer and symbol
2015-12-30T17:07:34Z pjb: Yes, scheme is confusing.  Assume they're the same.
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2015-12-30T17:08:19Z ggole: Most of the difference is that you can create symbols from arbitrary strings with string->symbol: identifiers are the subset that read will create for you from scheme source.
2015-12-30T17:08:31Z ggole: (That's probably a bit of a simplification.)
2015-12-30T17:10:42Z jusss: (define a 10) (+ 1 (car (cdr ''a)))
2015-12-30T17:10:51Z jusss: get error
2015-12-30T17:11:43Z pjb: Yes, you cannot add symbols to numbers.
2015-12-30T17:11:52Z pjb: or numbers to symbols.
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2015-12-30T17:13:24Z pjb: Also, (define a 10) defines the variable named a in an environment. To get access to its value from the symbol a, you would have to use eval (there's no symbol-value in scheme), and therefore you would have to find a way to obtain the environment where (define a 10) has defined the variable.  Most of the time it will be an implementation dependant way to find this environment.
2015-12-30T17:14:49Z jusss: completely confused now :-(
2015-12-30T17:15:08Z jusss: pjb: (define a 10) a is not a symbol
2015-12-30T17:15:26Z jusss: and now you say it's
2015-12-30T17:15:32Z pjb: jusss: but instead, you can define your own way to map symbols to values. For example, you could use an a-list.  (let ((vars '((a . 10) (b . 20))))  (+ (cdr (assoc 'a vars)) (cdr (assoc 'b vars)))) #| --> 30 |#
2015-12-30T17:16:25Z pjb: jusss: in (define a 10), define is a symbol. a is a symbol, 10 is an integer. (define a 10) is a form, which when evaluated in an environment, will define a variable, named by the symbol a, bound to the integer 10.
2015-12-30T17:17:39Z pjb: Now, if you do that at the REPL, and if your implementation provide the semi-standard interaction-environment procedure, then you could use (eval 'a (interaction-environment)) to get the value bound to the variable named a.  But it's only semi-standard, and not all implementations provide it.
2015-12-30T17:18:30Z pjb: And then, if you use this define in other environments, such as in a procedure: (lambda () (define a 10) …) then there are no standard way to get the environment allowing you to retrieve the variable named a in that procedure.
2015-12-30T17:19:32Z pjb: So instead, you can program your own kind of environment, for example, an a-list, where you map symbols to values and can do whatever you want. Of course, then you don't use define to put associations in your a-list, you would define your own procedures or macros.
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2015-12-30T17:20:38Z jusss: pjb: so a is a symbol before (define a 10) and after that a is not a symbol ?
2015-12-30T17:20:54Z pjb: a is always a symbol.
2015-12-30T17:21:13Z pjb: The question is whether there is a way to find the variable named by this symbol or not.
2015-12-30T17:21:54Z pjb: Notice that when you compile a program, the variable names (the symbol identifying those variables, aka the identifiers) are usually throw out. They're forgotten. Only remains native code.
2015-12-30T17:22:40Z jusss: pjb: 'a is (quote a) or a symbol ?
2015-12-30T17:22:42Z pjb: In such an environment (a compiled program), there's no way to go from a symbol to a variable, because the compiler may have even optimize out the variable, or duplicated it; in any case, it has forgotten the naming of the bytes in memory.
2015-12-30T17:22:50Z pjb: 'a is (quote a)
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2015-12-30T17:22:57Z pjb: Try: (read) RET 'a RET
2015-12-30T17:23:04Z pjb: Try: (read) RET (quote a) RET
2015-12-30T17:23:47Z pjb: Try: (let ((x (read)) (y (read))) (equal? x y)) RET 'a RET (quote a) RET
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2015-12-30T17:26:10Z pjb: jusss: see: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304200
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2015-12-30T17:30:02Z jusss: pjb: I really need a time to think about it, thanks very much
2015-12-30T17:30:20Z jusss: I have to go
2015-12-30T17:30:26Z pjb: Good night!
2015-12-30T17:30:35Z jusss: good night
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2015-12-30T21:46:47Z n_blownapart: hi jas$om gave me a lot of help last night but I had missed a preliminary version of it that swaps the old with the new arg (at top of paste). Now I am certain I don't know how it works.  pastie.org/10661852
2015-12-30T21:47:05Z n_blownapart: it being this example..
2015-12-30T21:48:01Z n_blownapart: I thought lines 22-23 are not used at all, but when I comment them out I realize they are key to the program.
2015-12-30T21:49:49Z n_blownapart: I'm beginning to dislike the little schemer book...
2015-12-30T21:51:55Z n_blownapart: sorry the program is here now : http://pastie.org/10661874
2015-12-30T21:53:30Z jcowan: (else (cond is mind-boggling
2015-12-30T21:54:05Z n_blownapart: my question is, what does line 11 do aside from returning the recursion part?
2015-12-30T21:54:07Z jcowan: just remove that and align the ((null? lat) ...) with the ((eq? (car lat) old) ...)
2015-12-30T21:54:31Z jcowan: It conses car lat on top of the recursive result
2015-12-30T21:56:12Z n_blownapart: jcowan:  thanks so much. one sec...
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2015-12-30T22:00:07Z n_blownapart: looking at line 23-24 (the completed version) once (cons old (cons new (cdr lat))) is completed, the flow goes to line 26 to add (car lat) ... the *only* operation on that line is (car lat)  .. the 'insertR new old' part is only used to recurse the (cdr lat) part prior to the final cons car lat. correct?
2015-12-30T22:00:12Z n_blownapart: jcowan: ^
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2015-12-30T22:11:38Z n_blownapart: I am getting warmer, I was under the impression line 26 was where new and old were cons from the innermost in the nest (old) to the left (new) and finally (cons (car lat) ..i.e. that the main part was on line 26
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2015-12-30T22:15:27Z n_blownapart: any comments on the above ? http://pastie.org/10661874
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2015-12-30T22:17:25Z jcowan: n_blownapart: pastie.org appears to be down, consider using lisppaste
2015-12-30T22:17:37Z n_blownapart: jcowan: sorry will do
2015-12-30T22:17:44Z jcowan: paste.lisp.org
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2015-12-30T22:21:23Z n_blownapart: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304210 thanks for looking. ^
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2015-12-30T22:34:34Z n_blownapart: I still have some questions regarding the finished program here, if anyone has time: the recursions occur at line 8 until the (eq? (car lat) old) is #t, then new and old are consed, and the current (cdr lat) is returned, but at that moment isn't (car lat) old again? (i.e. lines 7-8 don't cause an infinite loop?)  http://paste.lisp.org/display/304213
2015-12-30T22:36:32Z n_blownapart: no that can't be, the recursions happen at line 10 with insertR I believe. so I'm confused.
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2015-12-30T22:41:22Z jcowan: Right.  There is no recursion at line 8 needed, because we are changing only the first occurrence of old to old new, not all occurrences
2015-12-30T22:42:02Z jcowan: So we return the list (old new . <rest of lat>)
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2015-12-30T22:45:10Z n_blownapart: jcowan: so actually there is no recursion in this case from line 10 at all?
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2015-12-30T22:45:20Z jcowan: Right
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2015-12-30T22:45:29Z jcowan: well, there may be
2015-12-30T22:45:38Z jcowan: There are three cases to the recursion:
2015-12-30T22:45:46Z jcowan: base case: lat is empty, return empty
2015-12-30T22:45:58Z n_blownapart: ok
2015-12-30T22:46:12Z jcowan: active case: car matches old, prepend old and new to the rest of lat without looking at it
2015-12-30T22:46:26Z n_blownapart: without looking at it?
2015-12-30T22:46:27Z jcowan: recursion case: prepend car lat to the result of applying the function to cdr lat
2015-12-30T22:46:30Z jcowan: Right.
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2015-12-30T22:47:12Z jcowan: So if your input is '(ice cream with fudge and fudge) you get (ice cream with fudge topping and fudge)
2015-12-30T22:47:21Z jcowan: and not (ice cream with fudge topping and fudge topping)
2015-12-30T22:47:51Z jcowan: so the active case is also a base case
2015-12-30T22:47:58Z n_blownapart: right, it is designed to only insert the first instance...
2015-12-30T22:47:59Z jcowan: because there is no further recursion once you have a match
2015-12-30T22:48:28Z n_blownapart: ok, the thing is...
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2015-12-30T22:50:13Z n_blownapart: where are "Ice cream and" stripped off (popped in ruby) to be put in a buffer / staging area for the final cons.. ie on what line are they taken off to expose (eq? (car lat) old)   ?
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2015-12-30T22:50:52Z n_blownapart: to expose car lat == old
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2015-12-30T22:51:55Z jcowan: Well, think it through call by call.
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2015-12-30T22:52:53Z jcowan: On the first call, is lat empty? No.  Is car lat, namely 'ice, equal to old?  No.  Then the answer is 'ice consed on to the call (insertR 'fudge 'topping '(cream with fudge))
2015-12-30T22:53:54Z jcowan: s/with fudge/with fudge for dessert
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2015-12-30T22:54:36Z jcowan: The recursion takes the structure apart *implicitly* and the calls to cons build it up again.  You do not need to maintain the new version anywhere, it is done implicitly for you
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2015-12-30T22:57:00Z n_blownapart: that is trippy. so what was your notation s/with fudge/with fudge for dessert ... the s part ?
2015-12-30T22:57:24Z jcowan: Oh, s/foo/bar/ means "I made a mistake, for 'foo' read 'bar'"
2015-12-30T22:57:46Z jcowan: substitute foo with bar
2015-12-30T22:57:54Z jcowan: Nothing to do with Scheme
2015-12-30T22:58:38Z jcowan: It's like an inductive definition.  The inductive definition of n! is: if n is zero, then 1, else n * (n-1)!, right?
2015-12-30T22:59:27Z jcowan: That translates directly into Scheme as (define (fact n) (if (= n 0) 1 (* n (fact (- n 1)))))
2015-12-30T22:59:32Z n_blownapart: ok, thanks kindly jcowan  .. I was thinking buffer, but 'Ice' is going along for the ride, then ice cream. There is no 'buffer' where a line of code actually strips of the (car lat) on each recursion...
2015-12-30T22:59:41Z jcowan: Right
2015-12-30T22:59:48Z jcowan: or rather there is, but it is completely behind the scenes
2015-12-30T23:00:01Z jcowan: You don't ask when you multiply 4 * 5 where the four 5s are being held
2015-12-30T23:00:07Z jcowan: It just happens
2015-12-30T23:00:47Z n_blownapart: ok I will ponder that last part .... excellent. yeah that is a big part of my problem. I think coding is like building a motorcycle engine...where nothing is implicit !
2015-12-30T23:01:13Z n_blownapart: I always look for *precisely where* something is happening.
2015-12-30T23:01:28Z n_blownapart: many thanks. I get it now jcowan
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2015-12-30T23:03:14Z n_blownapart: this is key to move on in the book. what do you think of the little schemer, pedagogically speaking?
2015-12-30T23:03:35Z n_blownapart: It is not always thorough, it seems.
2015-12-30T23:03:36Z jcowan_: Hard to say because I already knew Lisp/Scheme when I read it
2015-12-30T23:03:58Z n_blownapart: thank you
2015-12-30T23:04:13Z jcowan_: N0 one book can teach everybody, and no one teacher either
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2015-12-30T23:04:42Z n_blownapart: yeah, I heard good things about the scheme programming language. straightforward
2015-12-30T23:04:45Z jcowan_: Socrates, they say, didn't write down his teachings because he believed so strongly in person-to-person work
2015-12-30T23:04:52Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan
2015-12-30T23:05:23Z n_blownapart: I wish I had a tutor. I spend so much time on details incomprehensible because of wording / phrasing.
2015-12-30T23:07:37Z n_blownapart: Socrates was too much of a rationalist. I've been reading William Blake, an anti-platonist socratist. fantastic btw
2015-12-30T23:08:14Z n_blownapart: a real shaman. anyway, thanks !
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2015-12-30T23:16:05Z jcowan: n_blownapart: "What now is Prov'd was once only Imagin'd"
2015-12-30T23:17:09Z jcowan: "To Generalize is to be an Idiot. To Particularize is the Alone Distinction of Merit — General Knowledges are those Knowledges that Idiots possess."
2015-12-30T23:18:02Z jcowan: and finally
2015-12-30T23:18:29Z jcowan: "If the fool would persist in his folly he would become wise", which should be the motto of all Lispers
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2015-12-30T23:25:52Z n_blownapart: jcowan: love it. Drive your cart over the bones of the dead.
2015-12-30T23:27:12Z jcowan: When you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!
2015-12-30T23:28:03Z n_blownapart: if we fear to do the dictates of our Angels, & tremble at the Tasks set before us; if we refuse to do Spiritual Acts because of Natural Fears or Natural Desires! Who can describe the dismal torments of such a state! -- I too well remember the Threats I heard! -- If you, who are organized by Divine Providence for Spiritual communion, Refuse, & bury your Talent in the Earth, even tho' you should want Natural Bread, Sorrow and Despera
2015-12-30T23:28:03Z n_blownapart: tion pursues you thro' life, & after death shame & confusion of face to eternity.
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