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2015-12-15T11:32:49Z cousteau: Is Scheme "a Lisp", or is it "a Lisp derivative"?
2015-12-15T11:33:42Z jackdaniel: cousteau: lisp is a broad family of languages. Scheme is part of that family (however there are voices of disagreement on this, it's my opinion :)
2015-12-15T11:34:02Z cousteau: ok, so the former :)  thanks, that's what I wanted to know
2015-12-15T11:35:53Z cousteau: it's not like, say, C++, which is a derivative of C but not really the same language at all  (also, there's "one C" which might be extended, but as you said Lisp is a broad family)
2015-12-15T11:37:07Z jackdaniel: cousteau: it's more like C, C++, Java, C# belong to the algol languages family
2015-12-15T11:37:37Z cousteau: oh
2015-12-15T11:38:06Z cousteau looks up Algol on Wikipedia and gets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algol -- dammit
2015-12-15T11:38:19Z LeoNerd: Relationships and categorisation aren't always clear-cut black and white
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2015-12-15T11:38:37Z jackdaniel: ↑
2015-12-15T11:38:43Z cousteau: yeah
2015-12-15T11:39:11Z cousteau: ...to be fair Algol looks more like Pascal than C/C++/C#/Java
2015-12-15T11:39:55Z LeoNerd: BEGIN
2015-12-15T11:40:51Z cousteau: yeah see?  That's clearly a Pascal/Ada thing!
2015-12-15T11:42:16Z cousteau: jackdaniel, ok, so oversimplifying this, your point is that Scheme and CLisp would be like C and C++, except there's a name for the former ("Lisp family")
2015-12-15T11:43:27Z cousteau: so if I want to "learn Lisp", which was my original intention, one way to do it is by learning Scheme
2015-12-15T11:43:28Z jackdaniel: Common Lisp (clisp is one of the implementations)*. Yeah, both are lisps, neither is the true "Lisp" :p
2015-12-15T11:43:42Z jackdaniel: one true "lisp" that is (imo obv)
2015-12-15T11:43:54Z jackdaniel: and yes, scheme is a way to learn lisp
2015-12-15T11:43:56Z cousteau: jackdaniel, oh, thought clisp was short for "Common Lisp"...  guess it's more like "CPython"
2015-12-15T11:44:23Z jackdaniel: :)
2015-12-15T11:44:57Z cousteau: ...damn, ALGOL looks like a mixture between Pascal, APL, and INTERCAL
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2015-12-15T11:46:13Z mario-goulart: cousteau: some decades ago there was a language called Lisp.  Along the years, many variants of that language were created, but still in the same spirit of the original Lisp (parenthesized syntax, prefix notation, macros, GC, functions as first class objects etc.).  Now the original Lisp is dead, and some of its descendents are still alive.  Scheme is one of them.
2015-12-15T11:46:14Z cousteau: (NB: that means "it's ugly and I don't like it")
2015-12-15T11:47:02Z mario-goulart: https://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf describes this topic in details.
2015-12-15T11:49:20Z cousteau: uh... something that has PDP in it sounds like something that will be horrid to read.  I mean, those damn things used 36-bit words!  That can't be good.
2015-12-15T11:50:03Z cousteau: PDP are the first 3 letters that come to mind when I think of "weird computer"
2015-12-15T11:51:30Z jackdaniel: in that case you should shy away from unix/-like systems ;) have a nice day o/
2015-12-15T11:53:28Z cousteau: jackdaniel, but POSIX says that bytes have nice, easy-to-handle 8-bit size!
2015-12-15T11:55:00Z cousteau: 1.1 Organization of This Paper   >109 pages   >paper
2015-12-15T11:55:10Z cousteau is used to "papers" having 4-8 pages
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2015-12-15T11:58:28Z cousteau: mario-goulart, a lengthy but interesting read
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2015-12-15T12:01:26Z cousteau: mario-goulart, page 81 though...
2015-12-15T12:01:43Z cousteau: so many [?] references
2015-12-15T12:04:35Z mario-goulart: Maybe that's some kind of draft.  This one seems to have all references resolved: http://www.csee.umbc.edu/courses/331/resources/papers/Evolution-of-Lisp.pdf
2015-12-15T12:04:36Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/hyCEGSp9w1
2015-12-15T12:04:37Z ggole_: Does POSIX actually guarantee that? C doesn't, and there are actual systems on which bytes are the same size as words...
2015-12-15T12:05:51Z ggole_: I see that it mandates that CHAR_BIT = 8. Right.
2015-12-15T12:05:58Z cousteau: ggole_, my experience: "I don't know if this Piccolo DSP uses 16- or 32-bit ints.  I know, I'll store sizeof (int) on a register and then read it; if it's 2 it means it's 16 bits, and if it's 4 then it's 32 bits"
2015-12-15T12:06:06Z cousteau: "...ok, it's 1, what??"
2015-12-15T12:06:36Z ggole_: Heh.
2015-12-15T12:06:44Z cousteau: and that's how I eventually learned that those things use 16-bit bytes
2015-12-15T12:06:53Z LeoNerd: Mmmm.. DSPs
2015-12-15T12:07:25Z mario-goulart: PDPs are much older than POSIX.
2015-12-15T12:08:10Z cousteau: yeah, iirc C was developed(?) on a 9-bit byte PDP (or something like that)
2015-12-15T12:08:24Z cousteau: (or was that Unix?  anyway, they're related)
2015-12-15T12:09:47Z cousteau: mario-goulart, some ugly syntax there :P  that DEFINE(( thing kind scares me
2015-12-15T12:10:19Z ggole_: The PDP-11? I thought that was a 16-bit machine.
2015-12-15T12:10:27Z cousteau: I think it was the -10
2015-12-15T12:10:36Z ggole_: Machines of unconventional widths were certainly common in those days, though.
2015-12-15T12:10:38Z cousteau: ...or -8?
2015-12-15T12:11:07Z cousteau: yeah, the advantage of 36-bit words was that you could have several different "character widths" -- 6, 9, 12...
2015-12-15T12:13:07Z ggole_: C's predecessors ran on earlier PDPs, but C was brought up on the PDP-11.
2015-12-15T12:13:16Z ggole_: https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.pdf
2015-12-15T12:13:48Z cousteau: The digraphs [) and (] are equivalent to BEGIN and END (they looked better on a Model 33 Teletype than they do here)  --  ok, you know what, "true LISP" scares me.
2015-12-15T12:14:48Z cousteau: hm, wasn't bell-labs.com/usr/dmr taken down?  Or only part of it?  Or was it brought back up?
2015-12-15T12:15:34Z ggole_: It 404s, but https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/ is there.
2015-12-15T12:15:38Z ggole_: No idea why.
2015-12-15T12:18:28Z cousteau: yeah, bell labs doing weird things
2015-12-15T12:18:42Z cousteau: that's how the K&R2 errata disappeared
2015-12-15T12:19:13Z cousteau: people at ##c had a hard-ish time finding a replacement, till they decided to just host a copy on their website
2015-12-15T12:20:41Z cousteau: ggole_, nice!  That PDF explains why the precedence of & and == is messed up, among other things... that's the sort of thing worth printing and keeping in your personal library
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2015-12-15T12:23:19Z cousteau: damn, those times would have been fun living in.  When long bearded guys experimented with computers and the new era was being brewed.  Well, except for the lack of internet.
2015-12-15T12:23:40Z cousteau: gotta go
2015-12-15T12:24:06Z ggole_: You had to be lucky to be in on the ground floor, though
2015-12-15T12:24:20Z ggole_: Not like now where anybody with an interest can dive in
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2015-12-15T13:01:58Z cousteau: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/koans.html#id3141171  lol
2015-12-15T13:05:13Z cousteau: that third one is rather close to XKCD's implementation of rand() (or that's how I understand it)
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2015-12-15T13:23:39Z cousteau: OK, so now's time for me to choose a Scheme interpreter, which seems to be a convoluted and even a controversial topic...
2015-12-15T13:23:43Z cousteau: Is Guile OK?
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2015-12-15T13:26:36Z cousteau: (one of the major advantages of guile over any other interpreter is that guile seems to be already installed on my machine, so using it involves less work)
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2015-12-15T13:31:23Z wasamasa: they're all ok
2015-12-15T13:32:11Z cousteau: ok then, Guile here I come!
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2015-12-15T13:32:42Z cousteau: (had just read http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations and ended up more confused than I started)
2015-12-15T13:32:43Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/bFcUKK1p1D
2015-12-15T13:32:58Z cousteau: lol @ url
2015-12-15T13:42:36Z cousteau: Before I continue with http://www.shido.info/lisp/idx_scm_e.html, do you recommend or discourage any Scheme tutorial in particular?
2015-12-15T13:43:27Z cousteau: was going with https://classes.soe.ucsc.edu/cmps112/Spring03/languages/scheme/SchemeTutorialA.html until I reached the part where they happily say  E ::= K | I | (E_0 E^*) | (lambda (I^*) E2) | (define I E')  and expect me to understand it
2015-12-15T13:43:28Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/LJdi0ZP4ji
2015-12-15T13:45:00Z cousteau: (and even if I did, that's not the proper way to start a "tutorial")
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2015-12-15T13:53:58Z cousteau: "atan accepts one or two arguments. if the value of atan is expected to be 1/2 π, use two arguments."  -->  ok, thanks for the explanation, verbose and comprehensive tutorial!  That totally clarifies the use of atan() and didn't need me experimenting in order to figure out what the heck it meant.
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2015-12-15T13:56:02Z cousteau: I'll go with HTDP as recommended by schemers.org
2015-12-15T14:00:45Z dpk: cousteau: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atan2
2015-12-15T14:01:32Z cousteau: dpk, well yeah, but I mean, "if the value of atan is expected to be 1/2 π" is NOT an explanation of how atan2 works
2015-12-15T14:03:58Z cousteau: "if instead of the slope you want to provide 2 coordinates to calculate the 'argument' of", maybe
2015-12-15T14:04:52Z cousteau: I mean, if they had literally said "atan2" in that tutorial I'd have understood it better
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2015-12-15T14:21:43Z cousteau: meh, I think I'll go back to the tutorial with the weird BNF description on it
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2015-12-15T14:30:04Z cousteau: https://classes.soe.ucsc.edu/cmps112/Spring03/languages/scheme/SchemeTutorialA.html -- you know what, I think this is a badly LaTeX formatted document
2015-12-15T14:30:04Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/LJdi0ZP4ji
2015-12-15T14:30:12Z cousteau: so many & in it
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2015-12-15T14:45:38Z cousteau: (rational? (atan 1)) => #t   OK, I don't understand the point of (rational?)
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2015-12-15T14:48:18Z taylan: cousteau: atan is arc tangent, a "well-known" mathematical function  (for some value of "well-known")
2015-12-15T14:49:03Z cousteau: taylan, what I'm complaining about is the explanation of atan with 2 arguments on that tutorial
2015-12-15T14:49:04Z taylan: rational? tells you whether a number is a rational number
2015-12-15T14:49:23Z taylan: cousteau: oh, I see :)
2015-12-15T14:49:32Z cousteau: (currently following "Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days")
2015-12-15T14:49:57Z cousteau: taylan, and that's another thing I was complaining; atan 1 is not a rational number
2015-12-15T14:50:20Z cousteau: (it is if you round it to a rational number using IEEE 754 floats, of course)
2015-12-15T14:50:38Z taylan: I guess it returns a rational number approximating (atan 1) since irrational numbers cannot be represented in finite computer memory
2015-12-15T14:51:44Z cousteau: ...yes they can; you just need another system
2015-12-15T14:53:01Z cousteau: (well, a subset of the irrational numbers can; for example π can be represented as "π".  It of course cannot be represented exactly using IEEE 754 floats, but that's just one way to represent things -- you can't represent 0.5 using integers either)
2015-12-15T14:53:31Z taylan: yeah I guess something similar to the way exact rationals work could be done
2015-12-15T14:54:09Z spew: you just need a rule for determining whether an irrational number is less than or greater than any rational number
2015-12-15T14:54:32Z spew: since that's all the irrationals are--the metric completion of the rationals
2015-12-15T14:55:29Z cousteau: btw, (/ 1 2) produces 0.5 on this interpreter rather than 1/2; the tutorial I'm following claims that it should produce 1/2 -- does this mean that my Scheme interpreter doesn't have an exact rational type, or maybe it just represents (prints) rational types in a funny way?
2015-12-15T14:55:53Z taylan: could be both.  what interpreter are you using?
2015-12-15T14:56:19Z cousteau: guile> (- (* (/ 1 49) 49) 1)  =>  -1.11022302462516e-16   YOU DUN MESS UP!
2015-12-15T14:56:34Z taylan: is that guile 1.x?
2015-12-15T14:56:41Z cousteau: yep, 1.6 I think
2015-12-15T14:56:47Z taylan: wow, that's ancient :)
2015-12-15T14:56:59Z cousteau: 1.6.8
2015-12-15T14:57:06Z taylan: I think even Debian stable has 2.0.x now
2015-12-15T14:57:33Z cousteau: don't think so; latest Ubuntu has 1.8 or that's what I thought
2015-12-15T14:58:02Z cousteau: wait, there's a guile-2.0 package
2015-12-15T14:58:06Z taylan: Ubuntu is doing something wrong then.  I remember hearing about that before though.  don't remember what the reason was.
2015-12-15T14:58:13Z taylan: aha
2015-12-15T14:58:42Z cousteau: actually there's no guile package; apparently you have to guess which one you want
2015-12-15T14:58:55Z taylan: Debian has 1.8 and 2.0.11 it seems
2015-12-15T14:59:09Z cousteau: so...  should I get rid of this guile and get something else (newer guile or different interpreter)?
2015-12-15T14:59:21Z taylan: Guile 2.0 is good
2015-12-15T14:59:42Z saul: 1.8 is still needed for GNUcash (last I checked). Other than that, 2.0 is best
2015-12-15T15:00:02Z taylan: LilyPond has also not transitioned yet AFAIK
2015-12-15T15:00:05Z cousteau: well, this Ubuntu is old too... I don't want to touch it too much so I didn't upgrade since I installed 12.04 on this PC
2015-12-15T15:01:18Z cousteau: ah screw it; installing Racket
2015-12-15T15:01:34Z taylan: that works too
2015-12-15T15:05:09Z cousteau: what do you people normally use for trying Scheme?  (polling here)
2015-12-15T15:05:33Z gnomon: Guile, Racket, and Gambit, personally.
2015-12-15T15:05:45Z cousteau: thanks :)
2015-12-15T15:06:22Z cousteau: using 3 because each one excels at something different, or just to ensure compatibility?
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2015-12-15T15:06:53Z davexunit: I use Guile exclusively
2015-12-15T15:07:00Z wasamasa: I use CHICKEN exclusively
2015-12-15T15:07:10Z cousteau: oh, I read a paper on that
2015-12-15T15:07:10Z taylan prefers Guile because GNU
2015-12-15T15:07:28Z davexunit: Guile shares the same spirit as Emacs
2015-12-15T15:07:45Z cousteau: https://isotropic.org/papers/chicken.pdf
2015-12-15T15:07:53Z davexunit: a lot of other schemes have moved towards the static camp
2015-12-15T15:07:54Z wasamasa: no you didn't :>
2015-12-15T15:08:07Z gnomon: cousteau, it's less because each one excels at some particular domain (although each one does) and more because I picked up each one of those at different times for different reasons, so they (fairly or unfairly) slot into different use cases in my brain.
2015-12-15T15:08:08Z wasamasa: that's Chicken, not CHICKEN
2015-12-15T15:08:50Z taylan: wasamasa: hey, Scheme is case-insensitive now :P
2015-12-15T15:08:56Z taylan: err...
2015-12-15T15:09:01Z taylan: never mind, it's case sensitive now
2015-12-15T15:09:05Z taylan: /botched-joke
2015-12-15T15:09:12Z gnomon: womp x2
2015-12-15T15:09:22Z cousteau: wasamasa, weird; I'd have sworn they talked about CHICKEN in that paper
2015-12-15T15:09:31Z gnomon: Wait, that's Forth.  (x2 'womp)
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2015-12-15T15:09:53Z cousteau: gnomon, I see
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2015-12-15T15:12:07Z cousteau: maybe this is one of the peculiarities of Scheme.  For Java there's javac, for C there's gcc, for Python there's CPython, but there doesn't seem to be a "main option" for Scheme
2015-12-15T15:12:08Z ggole_ whacks taylan with a Common Lisp read table
2015-12-15T15:12:42Z taylan: ouch!  don't smack me with ugly languages.
2015-12-15T15:12:55Z cousteau: (sure, there's gcj, clang, and pypy; but those other 3 are like the "usual ones")
2015-12-15T15:12:59Z davexunit: cousteau: because Scheme is a family of languages
2015-12-15T15:13:10Z davexunit: not a single language
2015-12-15T15:13:14Z cousteau: I thought that was Lisp
2015-12-15T15:13:18Z davexunit: that too
2015-12-15T15:13:24Z cousteau: and that Scheme was more like "a family of dialects"
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2015-12-15T15:13:51Z davexunit: cousteau: I suppose that description works too, but I find that it's best to think of each implementation as its own language.
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2015-12-15T15:14:24Z taylan: most strictly extend R5RS though
2015-12-15T15:14:26Z gnomon: cousteau, for C there's gcc, clang, Intel's thing, IBM's thing, pcc, tinycc, uh...
2015-12-15T15:14:28Z cousteau: I don't think a language + extensions really constitutes a different language
2015-12-15T15:14:57Z taylan: thing is, R5RS lacks so fundamental things you can't write many portable programs in it
2015-12-15T15:15:00Z cousteau: ...although I guess this is more like "bash = sh + a lot of extensions", not like "Gnu C = C + some rarely used extensions"
2015-12-15T15:15:35Z cousteau: gnomon, yeah but, like, everybody uses gcc :P
2015-12-15T15:15:36Z taylan: indeed, it's like ash/dash, ksh, and bash, all of which extend the POSIX sh spec
2015-12-15T15:15:40Z davexunit: Racket is its own language.  it's diverged from Scheme significantly.
2015-12-15T15:15:51Z gnomon: cousteau, say that in a room full of Apple developers.
2015-12-15T15:16:04Z davexunit: Chicken, Guile, everything else all have features that distinguish them
2015-12-15T15:16:10Z gnomon: cousteau, or in a room full of poor desperate sods stuck in an IBM/AIX ecosystem.
2015-12-15T15:16:11Z taylan: Racket hosts many languages, one of which is *pure* R5RS, but yeah, their "racket" language is actually incompatible with R5RS
2015-12-15T15:16:11Z davexunit: they are different languages in my mind
2015-12-15T15:16:36Z davexunit: people spend way too much time worrying about portable Scheme IMO
2015-12-15T15:16:37Z cousteau: gnomon, wait, is IBM/AIX worse than Visual Studio?
2015-12-15T15:16:38Z taylan: (that's the only big exception I think, among popular Scheme implementations.  others at least share the R5RS core)
2015-12-15T15:16:48Z gnomon: cousteau, oh my sweet summer child.
2015-12-15T15:16:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2015-12-15T15:17:35Z taylan: the BSDs are also GNUphobic and moving towards Clang now :(
2015-12-15T15:17:39Z cousteau: Visual Studio's C is like "Welcome to the nineties!"
2015-12-15T15:17:41Z davexunit: newcomers get especially hung up on the idea of Scheme as a single language.
2015-12-15T15:18:43Z taylan: FWIW, one can write some portable programs/libraries in R6RS and R7RS (... which are incompatible), but nearly nobody does so
2015-12-15T15:18:49Z davexunit: I write Guile Scheme, not Scheme.
2015-12-15T15:19:01Z taylan: I still have a bit of hope for an R7RS based future but don't bet on it
2015-12-15T15:19:30Z gnomon: cousteau, the AIX environment is like "welcome to the 70s!  But the awful corporate-anthem-and-too-tight-ties 70s, also we simultaneously despise you and consider you dumber than dirt".
2015-12-15T15:19:52Z cousteau: gnomon, so not even ANSI C?
2015-12-15T15:20:15Z gnomon: Never stuck around long enough to find out.
2015-12-15T15:20:18Z gnomon shudders
2015-12-15T15:20:22Z gnomon: Let's change the subject.
2015-12-15T15:20:58Z cousteau: davexunit, I often write GNU C too, but I think of it as "C using some GNU extensions" rather than "the GNU C language"
2015-12-15T15:21:26Z davexunit: sure
2015-12-15T15:21:30Z davexunit: Scheme is different
2015-12-15T15:22:44Z cousteau: I mean, you can do crazy stuff such as   __typeof__(x) y;   or   int x = ({int y; y = 2+2; y; })   in gnu C, but those are "minor details everybody knows are an extension"
2015-12-15T15:23:51Z taylan: yeah .. now imagine #include were a GCC extension, and there were 5-6 rivals to GCC all of which have a different mechanism to include files
2015-12-15T15:24:21Z cousteau: so sort of like #warning?
2015-12-15T15:24:34Z taylan: and that the two last C standards had their *own* different mechanisms to do that, which nobody uses
2015-12-15T15:25:00Z cousteau: ok, so it's more on a "bash vs sh" difference than a "gnu C vs standard C" one
2015-12-15T15:25:05Z taylan: that's how things are in Scheme, so it's easier to just consider the implementations to be different languages
2015-12-15T15:25:18Z cousteau: ok so bash
2015-12-15T15:25:40Z taylan: yeah...
2015-12-15T15:25:53Z gnomon pulls up a chair, has Opinions(tm) about shells
2015-12-15T15:26:23Z cousteau: the problem is that now I have to ask which are the most common Scheme engines
2015-12-15T15:26:46Z taylan: with shells, you at least have the bash monopoly though.  it's installed everywhere so you can just start your script with #!/usr/bin/env bash and write in Bash
2015-12-15T15:27:02Z taylan: with Scheme you have half a dozen competitors
2015-12-15T15:27:22Z taylan: cousteau: Guile, Chicken, and Racket are good general starter options I think
2015-12-15T15:27:39Z taylan: https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2015-12-15T15:27:40Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/sbR7vrszxw
2015-12-15T15:27:57Z taylan: and that's a good blog post for helping you choose an implementation for the longer term
2015-12-15T15:28:16Z cousteau: or better, which implementation will provide me a good view of Scheme and functional languages in general?  (I'm learning Scheme in order to get a good idea of functional languages)
2015-12-15T15:28:49Z taylan: Racket has somewhat stronger focus on FP than standard Scheme...
2015-12-15T15:28:54Z davexunit: Guile, Chicken, or Racket :P
2015-12-15T15:29:24Z taylan: but it's not that big a difference I guess
2015-12-15T15:30:10Z cousteau: taylan, yeah I read that; I ended up more confused than I started
2015-12-15T15:30:13Z taylan: while e.g. cons cells are all mutable in Guile, you can just not mutate them in your code, limiting yourself to FP style.  it's best practice anyway.
2015-12-15T15:30:47Z davexunit: cousteau: you should just pick one and go.
2015-12-15T15:30:49Z cousteau: basically there wasn't "The Scheme for beginners" or "The Scheme for someone who wants to learn a functional PL"
2015-12-15T15:31:27Z cousteau: I'm using Racket because http://ds26gte.github.io/tyscheme/index.html uses Racket's(?) mzscheme
2015-12-15T15:31:56Z taylan: that's Racket's old name IIRC
2015-12-15T15:32:19Z taylan: FYI there's a #racket channel (and #guile and #chicken)
2015-12-15T15:32:23Z cousteau: >> MzScheme is the old name for the core Racket implementation.  For  most  cases,  running  mzscheme  is  the same as running racket, except that the default interaction language  is  slightly  different for backward compatibility.
2015-12-15T15:32:56Z cousteau: taylan, indeed, but I didn't want to learn Racket, but Scheme :)
2015-12-15T15:33:31Z cousteau: actually I wanted to learn Lisp.  Well no, actually I wanted to learn FP (just not Haskell).  So Scheme seemed like the option that made more sense.
2015-12-15T15:33:51Z taylan: good choice :)
2015-12-15T15:34:14Z taylan: any of Racket, Chicken, Guile will do really
2015-12-15T15:34:37Z cousteau: good :)
2015-12-15T15:35:56Z cousteau: ...any with an interactive interpreter with Readline?
2015-12-15T15:36:09Z davexunit: Guile
2015-12-15T15:36:48Z cousteau: oh... well, my Guile didn't have properly working arrows; it displayed those ugly ^[[A et al
2015-12-15T15:36:59Z davexunit: cousteau: you have to opt-in to readline
2015-12-15T15:37:09Z davexunit: readline is GPL licensed, Guile is LGPL license
2015-12-15T15:37:11Z davexunit: d
2015-12-15T15:37:19Z cousteau: oh
2015-12-15T15:37:24Z taylan: you can put these lines in your ~/.guilerc:
2015-12-15T15:37:24Z taylan: (use-modules (ice-9 readline))
2015-12-15T15:37:24Z davexunit: making Guile work with readline out-of-the-box would be a copyright violation
2015-12-15T15:37:24Z taylan: (activate-readline)
2015-12-15T15:38:21Z cousteau: nice!
2015-12-15T15:38:57Z cousteau: I guess there isn't something similar for `racket`, is there?
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2015-12-15T15:39:17Z taylan: it has this DrRacket GUI, don't remember if it has readline
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2015-12-15T15:40:08Z taylan: there's also a nifty CLI tool called 'rlwrap' that wraps any non-readline CLI into a readline CLI
2015-12-15T15:40:25Z taylan: so you run e.g.: rlwrap telnet example.org
2015-12-15T15:40:29Z cousteau: drracket seems to have been automatically translated to my language
2015-12-15T15:41:15Z cousteau: "Legacy Languages: R5RS / Muy Grande (Spanish for "Very Big") / Swindle"
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2015-12-15T15:42:08Z cousteau: also words such as "Syntaxis" (a hybrid between "syntax" and "sintaxis") and "Languajes" (a mix of "languages" and "lenguajes")
2015-12-15T15:42:29Z taylan: bad translation?
2015-12-15T15:43:46Z cousteau: ...anyway I probably won't be using that again in a short term
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2015-12-15T15:58:30Z cousteau: Lists work mostly as linked lists, right?  i.e. the "list" is a value-list pair, and ends in the "empty list"
2015-12-15T15:59:31Z cousteau: (not sure if the concept of pointer/reference is present here as well, but structurally it's like that, right?)
2015-12-15T16:00:33Z davexunit: yes that's correct
2015-12-15T16:00:40Z davexunit: lists are made of pairs
2015-12-15T16:00:49Z davexunit: to form a singly linked list
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2015-12-15T16:01:45Z cousteau: ok... damn, if the tutorial had started from there I'd have understood everything better.
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2015-12-15T16:03:26Z davexunit: (list 1 2 3) is short for (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 '())))
2015-12-15T16:03:34Z davexunit: '() is the special empty list object
2015-12-15T16:04:09Z taylan: I think there's so many ways to write a tutorial (and so many levels of prior knowledge to target), they inevitably become either boring or too complicated for most people...  here's my fringe attempt, should it suit you better :P  http://taylanub.github.io/doc/lisp-rundown.html
2015-12-15T16:04:30Z taylan: it's a very brief "from bottom to top" guide to lisp in general (with a slight Scheme flavor)
2015-12-15T16:05:11Z cousteau: faving for later
2015-12-15T16:06:28Z cousteau: hmm, that tutorial might be better for learning the underlying theory of operation, which is actually what I wanted to know, thanks!
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2015-12-15T16:10:17Z cousteau: ...re: using sexprs in place of JSON, well, I'd rather use Tcl for that
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2015-12-15T16:11:10Z cousteau: (actually a Tcl "dialect" for describing data types I recently made up... maybe I should implement it or write it down or something)
2015-12-15T16:13:10Z cousteau: ok, so (begin) constructs something equivalent to a C "block"...
2015-12-15T16:13:58Z davexunit: yes, similar
2015-12-15T16:14:14Z davexunit: it's a way of creating a compound expression
2015-12-15T16:14:27Z davexunit: which is useful when using macros that expect a single expression
2015-12-15T16:14:35Z davexunit: 'if' is a good example
2015-12-15T16:14:38Z cousteau: I guess if you trim all the ' and . and other syntactic sugar of the language and instead use ugly stuff such as (quote) and (cons) it really becomes a pure list-based syntax
2015-12-15T16:14:52Z davexunit: yes
2015-12-15T16:15:04Z cousteau: I think that's what I'm more interested in
2015-12-15T16:15:22Z davexunit: okay
2015-12-15T16:15:46Z davexunit: it's still list-based anyway
2015-12-15T16:16:03Z davexunit: I don't see the point in not using the quoting syntax
2015-12-15T16:16:08Z cousteau: yeah, only the syntax doesn't reflect it directly if you use those candies
2015-12-15T16:16:16Z davexunit: yes, it does
2015-12-15T16:16:20Z kraehe: cousteau, (begin ....) does not create a new environment - so (set! ...) works on the surrounding (lambda, let or repl) environment
2015-12-15T16:16:34Z davexunit: yup, that's a good detail to mention
2015-12-15T16:16:39Z cousteau: kraehe, I see
2015-12-15T16:17:07Z davexunit: cousteau: 'begin' is useful occasionally, but thing like 'let' are useful constantly
2015-12-15T16:17:14Z davexunit: things*
2015-12-15T16:17:16Z cousteau: well, C blocks don't totally create a new environment; they kinda "inherit and extend" the upper one
2015-12-15T16:17:35Z kraehe: thats same in scheme with lambda or let
2015-12-15T16:17:41Z davexunit: Scheme is lexically scoped
2015-12-15T16:18:16Z kraehe: true, davexunit - so better call it a scope and not an environment (as I do from my interpreter point of view)
2015-12-15T16:18:39Z davexunit: SICP uses the term "environment"
2015-12-15T16:18:41Z cousteau: (begin) would be kinda like C's comma operator, right?
2015-12-15T16:18:52Z LeoNerd: Yes; that's a closer analogy
2015-12-15T16:18:54Z davexunit: "a new environment" doesn't mean an empty one
2015-12-15T16:19:09Z davexunit: an environment has a parent
2015-12-15T16:19:27Z davexunit: variable lookups that fail in the current environment are looked up in the parent, recursively
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2015-12-15T16:22:35Z cousteau: (define (foo x y) (+ x y)) is a combination of (define foo (lambda (x y) (+ x y))) right?
2015-12-15T16:22:49Z taylan: an abbreviation for it, yes
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2015-12-15T16:23:00Z cousteau: nice :)
2015-12-15T16:23:47Z kraehe: yes - and imho the preferred form ... when it comes to debugging, as the later binds an annonymous functions to a variable, while the first gives the lambda a name
2015-12-15T16:24:10Z kraehe: ... in many implementations
2015-12-15T16:27:44Z cousteau: ok, so ' , @ ` . are just syntactic sugar so that the language doesn't look too horrid, right?
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2015-12-15T16:27:57Z taylan: yup
2015-12-15T16:28:29Z taylan: well, not the dot
2015-12-15T16:28:59Z taylan: one could say the *lack* of dots is syntax sugar
2015-12-15T16:29:04Z cousteau: (personally I would have gone just with shorter names, like (') for (quote); at least for a mental map on how this works -- not really too pretty, just more consistent)
2015-12-15T16:29:10Z cousteau: taylan, oh
2015-12-15T16:29:55Z cousteau: was thinking on it as a replacement for (cons)
2015-12-15T16:29:59Z mario-goulart: I think old lisps didn't have the concept of improper lists, so they didn't have . as part of the syntax.
2015-12-15T16:30:27Z mario-goulart: No pairs.  Lists must be terminated by the empty list.
2015-12-15T16:30:38Z cousteau: improper lists are those containing a pair whose second element is not a list?
2015-12-15T16:30:49Z mario-goulart: cousteau: yes
2015-12-15T16:30:54Z cousteau: ok :)
2015-12-15T16:31:11Z mario-goulart: Not the second, but the last.
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2015-12-15T16:31:25Z cousteau: (of course, a list whose first element IS a list has no reason for not being a "proper list"; could be a list of lists or list containing a list...)
2015-12-15T16:31:27Z mario-goulart: Oh, you mentioned pair.  So, yes. :-)
2015-12-15T16:31:50Z taylan: cousteau: (cons x y) is a three-element list.  if evaluated as lisp code, it will call the cons function which then returns a pair.  (x . y) on the other hand is already a pair (and trying to evaluate it as lisp code will likely error)
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2015-12-15T16:32:08Z taylan: cousteau: it's a bit tricky to get used to this two-layer thinking of data/code
2015-12-15T16:32:14Z cousteau: taylan, well, thanks for that "tutorial" on the basics of Lisp; it really helped understanding the basics of s-expressions :)
2015-12-15T16:32:23Z taylan: happy to help :)
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2015-12-15T17:33:17Z f-a: so I cannot do (apply and '(2 3))
2015-12-15T17:33:21Z f-a: because and is a macro
2015-12-15T17:33:39Z f-a: right? is there any way around this?
2015-12-15T17:35:22Z ggole: (lambda (a b) (and a b))
2015-12-15T17:35:30Z f-a: thanks
2015-12-15T17:35:48Z jcowan: But that will not work with arbitrarily many arguments.  What you need is "any" from SRFI 1.
2015-12-15T17:36:48Z ggole: Er, of course... been programming in ML too much lately.
2015-12-15T17:40:42Z leppie: You can do: (and . (2 3)) :D
2015-12-15T17:41:15Z wasamasa: wat
2015-12-15T17:41:35Z leppie: rudybot: (and . (2 3))
2015-12-15T17:41:36Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: 3
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2015-12-15T17:44:43Z lambda-11235: That only work with a literal list, so (and . xs) wouldn't work.
2015-12-15T17:45:10Z leppie: lambda-11235: of course, hence the :D
2015-12-15T17:45:22Z wasamasa: and it only works with racket, right?
2015-12-15T17:45:36Z leppie: wasamasa: that example should work on all schemes
2015-12-15T17:46:02Z wasamasa: unbelievable
2015-12-15T17:46:08Z leppie: rudybot: (and . (list 2 3)) ; just for fun
2015-12-15T17:46:09Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: 3
2015-12-15T17:46:55Z leppie: wasamasa nothing funny, basic parsing of lists
2015-12-15T17:47:14Z leppie: last example is same as (and list 2 3)
2015-12-15T17:47:25Z ggole: leppie: cheating!
2015-12-15T17:49:48Z leppie: none of the suggestions are good, if you dont want to the arguments evaluated like AND does
2015-12-15T17:51:41Z leppie: rudybot: (and (begin (display 'i-live) #f) (display 'i-die))
2015-12-15T17:51:41Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: #f
2015-12-15T17:51:42Z rudybot: leppie: ; stdout: "i-live"
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2015-12-15T17:52:17Z leppie: rudybot: (lambda (a b) (and a b)) (begin (display 'i-live) #f) (display 'i-die))
2015-12-15T17:52:21Z rudybot: leppie: about the parens, I'm pretty much a die-hard match-column kinda guy... it helps me to see where structures begin and end
2015-12-15T17:52:47Z leppie: rudybot: ((lambda (a b) (and a b)) (begin (display 'i-live) #f) (display 'i-die))
2015-12-15T17:52:48Z rudybot: leppie: ; Value: #f
2015-12-15T17:52:49Z rudybot: leppie: ; stdout: "i-livei-die"
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2015-12-15T18:09:49Z jcowan: leppie: nothing wrong with `any`.
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2015-12-15T18:15:32Z leppie: jcowan: unless you looking for exact semantics, no :D
2015-12-15T18:18:30Z jcowan: what difference do you have in mind?
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2015-12-15T18:20:41Z leppie: the same as shown with those 2 rudybot evals, but it will probably never apply to an already evaluated list argument
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2015-12-15T18:38:08Z jcowan: Well, yes, any only operates on realized values, but then apply only operates on realized values too, unless you are calling (apply eval '(...))
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