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2015-05-13T00:19:47Z DrDuck: i think it's time to feel guilty and reference someone's solution
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2015-05-13T00:46:48Z pjb: DrDuck: don't let you become overwhelmed by the using only cons constraint.
2015-05-13T00:46:58Z pjb: DrDuck: the purpose of sicp is to teach you abstraction.
2015-05-13T00:48:28Z pjb: So once you've defined: (define (make-dll-node contents) (list 'dll-node contents dll-empty dll-empty)) (define (dll-node-contents node) (cadr node)) (define (dll-node-next node) (caddr node)) (define (dll-node-previous node) (cadddr node))  and the needed setters,
2015-05-13T00:48:51Z pjb: you don't have to think in terms of cons cells anymore, but in terms of nodes, using those functions.
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2015-05-13T00:58:09Z DrDuck: pjb: using (define (make-node item prev next) (cons prev (cons item next))) (define (item node) (cadr node))
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2015-05-13T01:00:00Z DrDuck: that's about the same as what you said i suppose
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2015-05-13T01:00:19Z DrDuck: been using java for the last few months and need to change my thinking
2015-05-13T01:00:49Z DrDuck: had to peek at what someone else did but i think i have enough of an idea to write it all out now... hopefully
2015-05-13T01:03:05Z Pixel_Outlaw: We you indulging in Java under your own will or was it for a corporate overloard?
2015-05-13T01:03:21Z Pixel_Outlaw: *overlord
2015-05-13T01:04:22Z DrDuck: needed to prepare for a job coming out of uni
2015-05-13T01:04:33Z DrDuck: it was the lowest hanging fruit i could think of
2015-05-13T01:04:42Z Pixel_Outlaw: ;)
2015-05-13T01:04:59Z DrDuck: the good part is i found a job. the bad part is i'm stumped now that i'm trying to do sicp again
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2015-05-13T01:06:40Z Pixel_Outlaw: Java is created from the top down with huge monolithic pieces. Lisp/Scheme were created around a handful of fundamental concepts with profound implications.
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2015-05-13T01:07:57Z Pixel_Outlaw: I suppose it would be like comparing the class and all possible scopes and method types with the lambda.
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2015-05-13T01:12:57Z DrDuck: do you guys use scheme in your day jobs? if so, for what?
2015-05-13T01:14:20Z vraid: i made some scripts that i use
2015-05-13T01:14:44Z Pixel_Outlaw: I think the closest most people come is using Clojure.
2015-05-13T01:14:59Z Pixel_Outlaw makes a cross sign with his fingers at the mention
2015-05-13T01:15:57Z Pixel_Outlaw: I've seen 2 job listings in the past year for a Common Lisp developer.
2015-05-13T01:16:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: Most people just refuse Lisp/Scheme out of SPS or Scary Paren Syndrome.
2015-05-13T01:16:42Z DrDuck: oh i didn't mean full time scheme/lisp developer. just wondered if many people here used it for scripting on the side at their main job
2015-05-13T01:16:55Z DrDuck: that is pretty cool btw vraid. do you use it often?
2015-05-13T01:19:23Z vraid: not very, unfortunately
2015-05-13T01:20:39Z Pixel_Outlaw: I use elisp on rare occasions.
2015-05-13T01:20:48Z Pixel_Outlaw: But it is more like MacLisp I guess than Scheme
2015-05-13T01:21:12Z Pixel_Outlaw: Scheme is just for fun to keep my mind sharp. (Until I can start making portable games perhaps)
2015-05-13T01:21:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: Actually, I do use scheme in Gimp on occasion.
2015-05-13T01:21:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: So there is that.
2015-05-13T01:23:11Z DrDuck: neat-o
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2015-05-13T01:43:48Z teurastaja: im using gauche scheme, could be using anything else. this code isnt working. need help debugging: http://pastebin.com/BE3qQb2t
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2015-05-13T01:46:09Z teurastaja: sorry got disconnected
2015-05-13T01:47:10Z teurastaja: what is wrong with it?
2015-05-13T01:48:15Z teurastaja: anyone there?
2015-05-13T01:49:25Z mikeyhc: what do you mean by not working
2015-05-13T01:50:29Z teurastaja: it says unbound variable: <node>
2015-05-13T01:51:29Z evhan: teurastaja: It's probably because define-record-type is undefined, or not working like you expect.
2015-05-13T01:52:17Z teurastaja: so gauche does not support define-record-type?
2015-05-13T01:53:08Z teurastaja: i thought it integrated r7rs transparently
2015-05-13T01:55:14Z evhan: teurastaja: It does when you provide the "-r7" flag.
2015-05-13T01:55:22Z teurastaja: oh...
2015-05-13T01:55:49Z teurastaja: still doesnt work...
2015-05-13T01:57:01Z teurastaja: why doesnt define-record-type not work?
2015-05-13T01:57:12Z teurastaja: *work
2015-05-13T01:57:26Z evhan: Works for me: http://foldling.org/~evhan/tmp/r7rs.txt
2015-05-13T02:08:34Z teurastaja: huh?
2015-05-13T02:10:16Z teurastaja: i use: gosh -r7 scheme21.scm 0 9 0 0 6 7 .....
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2015-05-13T02:17:35Z teurastaja: does it compile?
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2015-05-13T02:19:29Z DrDuck: I'm going all wrong with my front-insert-dequeue! code it seems. Any advice, pjb? https://www.refheap.com/100988
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2015-05-13T02:27:34Z pjb: DrDuck: item takes one parameter. You're calling it with two.
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2015-05-13T02:29:57Z teurastaja: pjb: did you look at my code?
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2015-05-13T02:31:17Z pjb: teurastaja: I cannot read code with brackets.
2015-05-13T02:31:41Z teurastaja: why?
2015-05-13T02:32:01Z pjb: it hurts my eyes.
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2015-05-13T02:32:53Z teurastaja: then s/\[/\(/ and s/\]/\)/
2015-05-13T02:33:34Z zacts: what is Perl regex doing on #scheme
2015-05-13T02:33:37Z zacts: (kidding)
2015-05-13T02:34:13Z ijp: do you need to escape it in the output part of the expression?
2015-05-13T02:35:23Z teurastaja: the output part?
2015-05-13T02:35:36Z pjb: teurastaja: but otherwise, sorry, I don't have gauche scheme on my systems, so I can't help debugging.
2015-05-13T02:35:46Z teurastaja: what do you use?
2015-05-13T02:36:38Z pjb: bigloo and mit-scheme
2015-05-13T02:37:11Z pjb: But I don't know the implementation specific stuff, only the r5rs stuff.
2015-05-13T02:38:19Z teurastaja: you dont use r7rs?
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2015-05-13T02:40:23Z ijp: nobody does
2015-05-13T02:41:11Z pjb: not yet, but I'll have to upgrade to r7rs indeed.
2015-05-13T02:47:31Z teurastaja: so nobody can help?
2015-05-13T02:48:07Z pjb: teurastaja: I would note that you don't have tests.
2015-05-13T02:48:23Z pjb: Perhaps you could tests each function individually.
2015-05-13T02:48:44Z teurastaja: alright but the first line is failing...
2015-05-13T02:49:03Z pjb: (you will note that it's hard to test local functions, hence a reason to avoid them).
2015-05-13T02:49:32Z pjb: teurastaja: I'm assuming you have resolved this problem since it was the first thing mentionned to you a few hours ago.
2015-05-13T02:50:01Z pjb: teurastaja: <03:42:14><evhan> teurastaja: It's probably because define-record-type is undefined, or not working like you expect.
2015-05-13T02:50:20Z teurastaja: yes ive seen that
2015-05-13T02:50:48Z teurastaja: but apparently it works in interactive mode
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2015-05-13T12:43:26Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/repl.html#call-cc.scm <- *w00t*w00t* I've implmented escape continuations
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2015-05-13T12:46:27Z taylanub: kephra: might want to call it call-ec or so if it's just escape continuations
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2015-05-13T12:55:32Z kephra: taylanub, the current name is: call-escape - see the define at first line
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2015-05-13T12:56:39Z taylanub: ok
2015-05-13T12:57:18Z kephra: (list-length '(a b . c)) will result in 4, because my scheme look like has no cons cells, so this test was replaced by (list-length "foo")
2015-05-13T12:59:04Z kephra: but its nice, that call-ec comes cheap of only 18 lines javascript
2015-05-13T12:59:39Z kephra: so my design of the code stack engine was not that premature
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2015-05-13T13:08:05Z Pixel_Outlaw: Good morning.
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2015-05-13T13:09:17Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/repl.html#call-ec.scm <- just renamed the example, to make it more clear, that is is only "easy" escape continutations
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2015-05-13T13:26:22Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/r4rs-full.html <- fails one test more ... but tests escape continuations now
2015-05-13T13:26:48Z kephra: *feierabend* the weather is to nice to sit in front of the computer!
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2015-05-13T15:22:20Z Riastradh: klutometis: Your MX record is broken: there's no A record for its target.
2015-05-13T15:22:26Z Riastradh: klutometis: So nobody can get mail to you.
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2015-05-13T17:47:08Z ASau: Pixel_Outlaw: bullshit.
2015-05-13T17:47:10Z ASau: Java is very small and clean language.
2015-05-13T17:47:20Z ASau: It is just obscured by a number of libraries that make practical programming in Java a lot easier than in Scheme.
2015-05-13T17:47:53Z ASau: That's why in Java you don't invent not only double-ended queues but also a number of more complex data structures and algorithms.
2015-05-13T17:48:47Z ASau: Most people don't use Lisp or Scheme at work precisely because of that.
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2015-05-13T17:50:25Z zacts: I don't like java as an exclusive teaching language though
2015-05-13T17:51:17Z ASau: I have mixed experience with various technologies.
2015-05-13T17:51:36Z zacts: although, yes as a 'real world' practical language java can be useful for certain domains
2015-05-13T17:52:13Z zacts: ASau: I almost have minix booted on my beaglebone computer
2015-05-13T17:52:21Z ASau: I can tell for sure that, for instance, when teaching students who're not on CS track,
2015-05-13T17:52:28Z zacts: so I'll likely be porting chibi to pkgsrc (my part of the deal)
2015-05-13T17:52:35Z ASau: you definitely need something more powerful than C or C++.
2015-05-13T17:52:44Z ASau: More powerful than Scheme too.
2015-05-13T17:52:51Z zacts: define powerful
2015-05-13T17:53:09Z zacts: more abstractions / paradigms?
2015-05-13T17:53:14Z ASau: As a chemist, I see that we have wasted a lot of time dealing with C.
2015-05-13T17:53:14Z zacts: or more libraries?
2015-05-13T17:53:39Z ASau: In the time when we could learn doing useful things to us,
2015-05-13T17:53:54Z vraid: scientific computing is exactly the kind of domain where C is a horrible choice
2015-05-13T17:53:58Z ASau: we have wasted whole semester on writing GJ elimination.
2015-05-13T17:54:21Z Pixel_Outlaw: ASau, what is bullshit about what I said?
2015-05-13T17:54:48Z ASau: <Pixel_Outlaw> Java is created from the top down with huge monolithic pieces.
2015-05-13T17:54:49Z ASau: Lisp/Scheme were created around a handful of fundamental concepts with profound implications.
2015-05-13T17:54:58Z Pixel_Outlaw: Sounds right.
2015-05-13T17:55:11Z Pixel_Outlaw: I wasn't talking about the libraries in Java.
2015-05-13T17:55:18Z Pixel_Outlaw: I was talking about the complexity of their classes.
2015-05-13T17:55:18Z vraid: ASau: not all lisps are like scheme
2015-05-13T17:55:24Z ASau: ...It would be a lot better if we started from where we have stable PLU right upfront.
2015-05-13T17:55:36Z ASau: Pixel_Outlaw: which exactly?
2015-05-13T17:55:57Z ASau: Pixel_Outlaw: a lot of things are damn trivial yet quite boring to implement,
2015-05-13T17:55:58Z Pixel_Outlaw: I was comparing it to Scheme even though I did say Lisp/Scheme.
2015-05-13T17:56:10Z ASau: especially when you need _correct_ implementation.
2015-05-13T17:56:27Z zacts: java versus scheme discussion
2015-05-13T17:56:33Z ASau: Java was written by very well experienced Lispniks.
2015-05-13T17:56:38Z contrapunctus: zacts: who'd've thunk?
2015-05-13T17:56:42Z zacts: lol
2015-05-13T17:56:55Z vraid: zacts: may cause permanent brain damage
2015-05-13T17:56:55Z zacts: gosling did an emacs
2015-05-13T17:57:06Z zacts: and I think rms borrowed some framebuffer code of it
2015-05-13T17:57:12Z zacts: (perhaps even more code)
2015-05-13T17:57:40Z Pixel_Outlaw: i was just saying how apples are different than oranges without claiming one was better.
2015-05-13T17:57:55Z ASau: BTW, I just want to remind you that despite quite nice features, FP is quite weak when it goes to performance.
2015-05-13T17:58:14Z zacts: FP versus OOP discussion
2015-05-13T17:58:20Z zacts: #scheme is hot today!
2015-05-13T17:58:23Z zacts: :-D
2015-05-13T17:58:40Z zacts: ok /me will bbl
2015-05-13T17:59:05Z contrapunctus: I thought one of the easier ways to get better performance off multicore processors was FP? o.O
2015-05-13T17:59:09Z ASau: BTW, Scheme is even a lot weaker than CL in comparison.
2015-05-13T17:59:20Z ASau: contrapunctus: seriously?
2015-05-13T17:59:22Z Pixel_Outlaw: I prefer CL.
2015-05-13T17:59:41Z Pixel_Outlaw: I appreciate both.
2015-05-13T17:59:53Z contrapunctus: s/get better performance off/make use of/
2015-05-13T18:00:49Z ASau: contrapunctus: just in case you haven't noticed, imperative languages (Java included) can do the same with multicore programming, while FPLs have problems with effective algorithms.
2015-05-13T18:01:00Z ASau: Thus raw performance of FPLs may suffer a big deal.
2015-05-13T18:01:42Z contrapunctus: o.O
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2015-05-13T18:02:42Z ASau: contrapunctus: FPLs cannot use "ephemeral" data structures effectively.
2015-05-13T18:03:01Z ASau: And persistent data structures are worse performance-wise.
2015-05-13T18:03:19Z Pixel_Outlaw: I don't think it is any great secret that refusing to mutate state is good for memory and speed.
2015-05-13T18:03:28Z Pixel_Outlaw: *not good
2015-05-13T18:04:22Z zacts: ASau: what is the best use case for FP?
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2015-05-13T18:06:36Z ASau: It is hard to say, actually.
2015-05-13T18:07:02Z ASau: Just in case you haven't noticed, there're very few programming languages today that lack higher-order functions.
2015-05-13T18:07:20Z zacts: yeah
2015-05-13T18:07:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: Kind of ruins the fun when they have to have the same signature to be passed.
2015-05-13T18:07:34Z zacts: I'm wondering if a mixture of multiple paradigms in a single project can often be best
2015-05-13T18:07:48Z zacts: rather than a strict single paradigm per project
2015-05-13T18:07:49Z Pixel_Outlaw: Sure.
2015-05-13T18:07:53Z ASau: Have you tried doing that?
2015-05-13T18:08:05Z zacts: ASau: me?
2015-05-13T18:08:12Z zacts: if so, no
2015-05-13T18:08:14Z ASau: zacts: you. :)
2015-05-13T18:08:23Z zacts: I'm still learning this stuff
2015-05-13T18:08:24Z ASau: zacts: try it some day.
2015-05-13T18:08:38Z zacts: I will likely within the next couple of months
2015-05-13T18:08:41Z contrapunctus: ASau: why's every language going more FP-esque if not outright FP, then, if it's so worthless?
2015-05-13T18:08:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: The fobidden DO loop and set! beckon!
2015-05-13T18:08:58Z contrapunctus: (well, the easiest answer to that is "well, OOP is popular too")
2015-05-13T18:09:05Z zacts: contrapunctus: why did 5 - 10 years ago every language go OOP if not outright OOP, if it's so worthless?
2015-05-13T18:09:13Z contrapunctus: da da dum.
2015-05-13T18:09:44Z ASau: contrapunctus: I haven't said it is worthless.
2015-05-13T18:10:12Z zacts: ASau: have you read the book Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming?
2015-05-13T18:10:12Z ASau: Yet, the way IPLs acquire FPLs features is different.
2015-05-13T18:10:24Z zacts: I'm going to be starting on that one in a couple of weeks
2015-05-13T18:10:24Z ASau: No.
2015-05-13T18:10:30Z Pixel_Outlaw: I think you need to simply tailor the program to meet your needs. Who in their right mind would write a putpixel function that recreates the entire bitmap?
2015-05-13T18:10:35Z zacts: there is a paper by the author, let me find it
2015-05-13T18:10:45Z zacts: (kind of may be relevant to this discussion)
2015-05-13T18:11:04Z ASau: zacts: the problem with multi-paradigm programs is that they are essentially broken into several domains per paradigm.
2015-05-13T18:11:10Z ASau: These domains communicate.
2015-05-13T18:11:13Z ASau: => I/O
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2015-05-13T18:11:33Z ASau: which is hard thing for any paradigm except imperative. :)
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2015-05-13T18:12:04Z zacts: ah I see
2015-05-13T18:12:16Z zacts: yeah I was mainly asking, as I don't have enough experience to know
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2015-05-13T18:13:12Z zacts: http://www.sm.luth.se/csee/courses/timber/reading/VanRoy.pdf
2015-05-13T18:13:15Z zacts: ^ here is the paper
2015-05-13T18:13:23Z zacts: Programming Paradigms for Dummies
2015-05-13T18:13:36Z zacts: it kind of outlines what the above book I'm going to read is kind of about
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2015-05-13T18:14:25Z zacts: but any critiques / insights into opinions of anything in that paper I would totally be interested in
2015-05-13T18:14:48Z Pixel_Outlaw: You just need to bridge everything with XML wrapped data.
2015-05-13T18:14:57Z Pixel_Outlaw: That is what all the "cool" kids are doing these days.
2015-05-13T18:15:00Z zacts: anyway, brb. Heading to a different network connection
2015-05-13T18:15:03Z Pixel_Outlaw: -_-;
2015-05-13T18:15:23Z ASau: Pixel_Outlaw: yes, that's exactly what we ended doing. :)
2015-05-13T18:16:05Z ASau: And I don't see another way.
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2015-05-13T18:16:34Z ASau: Basically that's what you do: write some nice-looking functional style code,
2015-05-13T18:16:36Z Pixel_Outlaw: What ever happened to SXML?
2015-05-13T18:16:52Z Pixel_Outlaw: You get to save a bunch of closing tags.
2015-05-13T18:16:58Z ASau: only to serialize what you've got so that you could pass it to another part.
2015-05-13T18:17:20Z ASau: If you're trying to save bits, SXML sucks a lot.
2015-05-13T18:18:39Z ASau: If you want to save bits, you use XML.
2015-05-13T18:18:52Z ASau: Or ASN.1.
2015-05-13T18:18:57Z contrapunctus: ...
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2015-05-13T18:20:08Z ASau: Just in case you have missed it, XML is not only a markup language.
2015-05-13T18:20:22Z ASau: It is a whole stack of protocols.
2015-05-13T18:20:31Z ASau: One of them is Fast Infoset.
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2015-05-13T18:22:18Z davexunit: Pixel_Outlaw: SXML is alive and well.  so much better than working with XML directly.
2015-05-13T18:22:29Z Pixel_Outlaw: I worked at a healtcare company and we often had 200 MB XML files that took hours to process.
2015-05-13T18:22:48Z ASau: davexunit: nobody works with XML "directly."
2015-05-13T18:23:06Z ASau: Pixel_Outlaw: I worked on typography.
2015-05-13T18:23:17Z ASau: So, I know those files too. :)
2015-05-13T18:23:42Z davexunit: ASau: okay, but my point is that SXML is clearly a much nicer way to deal with XML than other means.
2015-05-13T18:23:56Z ASau: Still, unless somebody actually forces you to serialize infoset into XML, you have other options.
2015-05-13T18:24:03Z ASau: davexunit: bullshit.
2015-05-13T18:24:18Z davexunit: I use XML for writing HTML templates.
2015-05-13T18:24:20Z davexunit: SXML*
2015-05-13T18:24:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: Asau please mind your language, you're startling the timid!
2015-05-13T18:24:35Z ASau: I did that too. :)
2015-05-13T18:24:50Z davexunit: and it's great.  I can take advantage of quasiquote, Lisp's built-in templating system.
2015-05-13T18:25:04Z davexunit: very powerful stuff.
2015-05-13T18:25:23Z ASau: Working with SXML doesn't differ from working with another tree-like implementation of infoset.
2015-05-13T18:25:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: It would be fun to write a webpage in a Lisp.
2015-05-13T18:25:45Z davexunit: Pixel_Outlaw: we just did that for GNU Guix. :)
2015-05-13T18:26:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm not familiar with Guix.
2015-05-13T18:26:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: What is it?
2015-05-13T18:26:39Z davexunit: Pixel_Outlaw: package manager and distro.
2015-05-13T18:26:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ah cool.
2015-05-13T18:26:50Z Pixel_Outlaw: googling
2015-05-13T18:26:55Z contrapunctus: Pixel_Outlaw: my thoughts exactly - imagine seeing this for the first time in your life... http://wingolog.org/projects/tekuti/index.scm
2015-05-13T18:27:00Z davexunit: Pixel_Outlaw: https://gnu.org/s/guix
2015-05-13T18:27:05Z ASau: Pixel_Outlaw: It is special fun if your text has a lot of quotation marks. :)
2015-05-13T18:27:35Z Pixel_Outlaw: This is cool.
2015-05-13T18:27:40Z Pixel_Outlaw: I think it is cleaner than XML.
2015-05-13T18:27:42Z zacts: back
2015-05-13T18:27:52Z zacts: I <3 S-XML
2015-05-13T18:28:04Z zacts: I did a bit of it when I tried the chicken hyde egg
2015-05-13T18:28:05Z Pixel_Outlaw: The big word tags in XML take up a lot of line space.
2015-05-13T18:28:30Z ASau: I can tell you what Scheme's XML-related stack lacks. :)
2015-05-13T18:28:39Z davexunit: contrapunctus: I'm slowly hacking on a static site generator in Guile, a bit different use case than tekuti: https:
2015-05-13T18:28:41Z davexunit: oops
2015-05-13T18:28:45Z ASau: It lacks a tool like XSLT.
2015-05-13T18:28:46Z contrapunctus: zacts: who're the ops in this channel?
2015-05-13T18:28:48Z davexunit: https://gitorious.org/haunt/haunt
2015-05-13T18:28:51Z zacts: contrapunctus: /ops
2015-05-13T18:29:00Z zacts: I don't see any via that command though
2015-05-13T18:29:03Z zacts: I have no clue then
2015-05-13T18:29:05Z contrapunctus: ASau: err...SXSLT?
2015-05-13T18:29:13Z zacts: I thought Riastradh was an op
2015-05-13T18:29:19Z zacts: Riastradh: ^
2015-05-13T18:29:24Z contrapunctus: zacts: yeah, I guessed they would be :)
2015-05-13T18:29:50Z ASau: contrapunctus: is it real?
2015-05-13T18:30:01Z ASau: Last time I looked at it, it was... well...
2015-05-13T18:30:06Z ASau: Not entirely functional.
2015-05-13T18:30:30Z davexunit: why would you need xslt when you can just write a function to transform s-exps as needed?
2015-05-13T18:31:14Z contrapunctus: ASau: I'm a newb, so I don't know much of this stuff save by name.
2015-05-13T18:31:28Z ASau: Anyway.
2015-05-13T18:31:58Z ASau: I understand your NIH syndrome, yet it would be better if you would know better what you're criticising. :)
2015-05-13T18:32:17Z contrapunctus: I criticized something? o_o
2015-05-13T18:32:23Z ASau: davexunit: too many things to write.
2015-05-13T18:32:57Z ASau: davexunit: I can tell you that you don't need s-expressions since in a number of cases, using XSLT is shorter.
2015-05-13T18:33:03Z vraid: ah, good old "you're wrong, but i'm not telling you why"
2015-05-13T18:33:05Z davexunit: it doesn't sound like you like Scheme very much.
2015-05-13T18:33:37Z ASau: I may like it, but whenever I used it in production I had to deal with severe problems.
2015-05-13T18:34:22Z ASau: I understand that it is alright not to notice them when you program as hobby.
2015-05-13T18:34:51Z ASau: When you're trying to solve some real problem fast and have to pay, if you fail,
2015-05-13T18:34:54Z ASau: it is a lot different.
2015-05-13T18:35:15Z Pixel_Outlaw: Doesn't help when the programmer is not allowed to design the solution.
2015-05-13T18:35:30Z contrapunctus: davexunit: wasn't another Guile website generator being worked on? Or was it something else...
2015-05-13T18:35:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: Via flavor of the month nonsensical development techniques.
2015-05-13T18:35:55Z ASau: Pixel_Outlaw: I was given opportunity to design the solution, and still had severe problems.
2015-05-13T18:36:15Z ASau: XML has solid stack of protocols with solid implementations.
2015-05-13T18:36:27Z Pixel_Outlaw: And Oracle makes it easy to rip them apart.
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2015-05-13T18:36:43Z ASau: Oracle?
2015-05-13T18:36:46Z ASau: Oracle does't own XML.
2015-05-13T18:36:51Z Pixel_Outlaw: They do not.
2015-05-13T18:36:54Z ASau: Neither does Microsoft.
2015-05-13T18:36:57Z Pixel_Outlaw: Correct.
2015-05-13T18:37:05Z ASau: You have plenty of free and open-source solutions.
2015-05-13T18:37:11Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yes.
2015-05-13T18:38:04Z ASau: Sometimes you may consider commercial solutions even.
2015-05-13T18:38:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: A lot of companies just like Java for that reason. Oracle has made it easy.
2015-05-13T18:38:13Z contrapunctus: davexunit: and, considering moving from Gitorious? :)
2015-05-13T18:38:22Z ASau: Sun made it easy before Oracle.
2015-05-13T18:38:48Z zacts: I'm thinking I'm going to host my own blog and project repos
2015-05-13T18:38:55Z zacts: rather than using gitlab or github now
2015-05-13T18:39:00Z ASau: Pixel_Outlaw: I don't know your background, but deploying Java applications is really nice.
2015-05-13T18:39:16Z ASau: It is incomparably easier than anything else.
2015-05-13T18:39:38Z contrapunctus: zacts: not a bad idea if you can spare the time, I suppose.
2015-05-13T18:39:46Z Pixel_Outlaw: I have used it in a fortune 500 typical corporate setting.
2015-05-13T18:40:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: I simply just said it was very different than Scheme.
2015-05-13T18:40:36Z Pixel_Outlaw: I don't care for Java myself but can appreciate people who do.
2015-05-13T18:40:48Z ASau: What is really horrible is that in a number of important cases Java beats Scheme hands down.
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2015-05-13T18:41:39Z Pixel_Outlaw: How is it horrible?
2015-05-13T18:41:51Z ASau: Just to make it clear.
2015-05-13T18:42:05Z ASau: I'm not fanatically in love with Java.
2015-05-13T18:42:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: It is OK if it is faster and more people use Java. The important thing is that people have the freedom to choose the hammer that fits their hand best and still gets the desired results.
2015-05-13T18:42:40Z ASau: I just know it a little and see how it works really smoothly in some areas.
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2015-05-13T18:43:10Z ASau: I have seen Java outperforming C++ in high-throughput domain.
2015-05-13T18:43:52Z ASau: (Sure, those folks polished their code for half a decade for it, yet they did it!)
2015-05-13T18:44:27Z zacts: I want to host my repos and blog on my beagleboard
2015-05-13T18:44:37Z zacts: and it would be cool to use either racket or chicken
2015-05-13T18:44:45Z zacts: for the static blog generation
2015-05-13T18:45:01Z ASau: Oh, those fearless youngs. :D
2015-05-13T18:45:41Z ASau: OTOH, if you're not going to host git, it may work even. :)
2015-05-13T18:48:56Z Pixel_Outlaw: Racket has those sp00ky [ ] marks
2015-05-13T18:49:10Z Pixel_Outlaw: Pixel_Outlaw, those are optional.
2015-05-13T18:49:15Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yeah but they still sp00k me.
2015-05-13T18:49:23Z vraid: you can even use {} if you wish
2015-05-13T18:49:31Z Pixel_Outlaw recoils in horror
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2015-05-13T18:53:33Z Pixel_Outlaw: My periscope glasses have arrived now I can read in bed.
2015-05-13T18:54:14Z contrapunctus: Pixel_Outlaw: ...?
2015-05-13T18:55:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: http://76.my/Malaysia/periscope-glasses-lazy-easy-lie-bed-read-book-holder-bookstand-marcusee-1211-25-marcusee@1.jpg
2015-05-13T18:55:04Z rudybot: http://eensy.teensy.info/BAuoTcG9ht
2015-05-13T18:56:50Z contrapunctus: @____@
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2015-05-13T19:43:42Z klutometis: Riastradh: Thanks! Just transferred the domain to Google; must have screwed up the DNS.
2015-05-13T19:44:28Z Pixel_Outlaw: Why are job listings for programs so damned vague? Just list the languages and skills needed dammit. Nobody knows what "responsable for <corporate jargon here>" really means.
2015-05-13T19:44:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: *programmers
2015-05-13T19:45:28Z contrapunctus: Pixel_Outlaw: sounds like a document to assist in translation is in order. :D
2015-05-13T19:47:59Z wasamasa: an internship?
2015-05-13T19:48:29Z Pixel_Outlaw: nah, just looking through my options at the moment
2015-05-13T19:49:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: Business jargon is disgusting though. Usually it is made by people who want to appear like they are knowledgeable but really not and mask it with new vague language.
2015-05-13T19:50:42Z Pixel_Outlaw: I mean you go from writing a XML document to "leveraging the XML solution platform to passionately harness synergy for customer buy-in with maximum ROI"
2015-05-13T19:51:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: In the business world everything is either a "framework" "solution" or "platform". End everything must be leveraged. Oh and scalable.
2015-05-13T19:51:27Z wasamasa: and result in maximum ROI
2015-05-13T19:51:41Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yes for "client-facing solutions"
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2015-05-13T19:52:25Z Sizur: hi all
2015-05-13T19:52:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: Hello Sizur
2015-05-13T19:52:32Z Sizur: what does this line mean? https://github.com/webyrd/miniKanren-with-symbolic-constraints/blob/master/mk.scm#L138
2015-05-13T19:52:33Z rudybot: http://eensy.teensy.info/xTp3ug4Uzo
2015-05-13T19:53:11Z Sizur: what does the (let ((f^ c-inf)) e1)) mean?
2015-05-13T19:53:59Z klutometis: Riastradh: Appears to be working now; sincerely appreciate the heads up!
2015-05-13T19:54:05Z Sizur: ah duh... i read it wrong
2015-05-13T19:54:28Z Sizur: please ignore
2015-05-13T19:54:31Z Pixel_Outlaw: :)
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2015-05-13T19:56:27Z klutometis: Pixel_Outlaw: I have an ask for you, though; can you leverage the learnings of SICP for your functional vertical?
2015-05-13T19:57:22Z Pixel_Outlaw dies
2015-05-13T19:57:52Z klutometis never got why biz-folk nounify verbs.
2015-05-13T19:57:53Z Pixel_Outlaw: klutometis, we are trying to avoid boiling the ocean while getting more mindshare.
2015-05-13T19:57:59Z klutometis: Pixel_Outlaw: Heh!
2015-05-13T19:58:18Z klutometis: I mean, what the fuck are nouns, anyway; and why are they so interesting?
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2015-05-13T19:59:04Z klutometis: I asked a coworker the other day whether "learnings" was a Boratism that biz-folk had adopted or vice versa.
2015-05-13T19:59:11Z klutometis: According to him, it was the other way around.
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2015-05-13T19:59:42Z Pixel_Outlaw: Oh "learnings"
2015-05-13T19:59:45Z Pixel_Outlaw: that one kills me
2015-05-13T20:00:28Z Pixel_Outlaw: The absolute worst is when they mandate a "lunch-n-learn" and take away your lunch to lecture you on some flavor of the month management style.
2015-05-13T20:00:28Z klutometis: I'm not sure whether I rank it above or below "ask" as a noun.
2015-05-13T20:00:39Z ASau: Pixel_Outlaw: Actually, this "responsible for" is the most important part there.
2015-05-13T20:00:43Z klutometis: Heh! Speaking of which, have to head to one of those now.
2015-05-13T20:00:55Z Pixel_Outlaw: :D
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2015-05-13T20:01:13Z ASau: Pixel_Outlaw: all the rest is useless garbage, including programming languages.
2015-05-13T20:01:31Z Pixel_Outlaw: I know that first hand.
2015-05-13T20:01:50Z Pixel_Outlaw: I was hired to program in Java but ended up finding out the job had no programming at all.
2015-05-13T20:01:56Z Pixel_Outlaw: Save Tibco Businessworks.
2015-05-13T20:02:13Z mdln quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2015-05-13T20:02:22Z Pixel_Outlaw: which is just horrible middleware that uses a terrible baby drag n drop programming language
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2015-05-13T20:02:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: No containers of any kind.
2015-05-13T20:02:49Z ASau: The worst part is when "HR" don't even care to check what skills are needed for your replacement.
2015-05-13T20:02:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yes.
2015-05-13T20:03:26Z ASau: On one of my jobs, replacement should have had understanding of networking stuff, FreeBSD and Scheme.
2015-05-13T20:03:34Z ASau: All the rest was useless.
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2015-05-13T20:03:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: No SQL eh?
2015-05-13T20:03:55Z ASau: Well...
2015-05-13T20:04:05Z ASau: If he knows Scheme, he knows SQL most probably.
2015-05-13T20:04:28Z Pixel_Outlaw: Good job managing to convince your boss to allow something different.
2015-05-13T20:04:37Z ASau: ...Instead, they posted "linux" (no, dammit, it required knowledge of any other BSD at least!)
2015-05-13T20:04:38Z ASau: and C.
2015-05-13T20:04:44Z Pixel_Outlaw: I thought it was all C# and Java these days. With PHP and JavaScript.
2015-05-13T20:05:18Z Pixel_Outlaw: Granted we'll be seeing a lot of Python too which is OK as it is fairly expressive.
2015-05-13T20:05:31Z ASau: Pixel_Outlaw: I was saving project from imminent danger. :)
2015-05-13T20:05:43Z ASau: So, I was given carte blanche at some point.
2015-05-13T20:06:03Z Pixel_Outlaw: What were you using for scheme?
2015-05-13T20:06:09Z ASau: CHICKEN.
2015-05-13T20:06:48Z Pixel_Outlaw: Were you leveraging the eggs of the Scheme solution?
2015-05-13T20:06:49Z Pixel_Outlaw: :D
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2015-05-13T20:09:16Z Pixel_Outlaw: What was the project that used Chicken?
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2015-05-13T20:50:35Z Pixel_Outlaw: Anyone seen any Scheme games? Ideally something that runs in a giant recursive game loop. I wonder how such a thing behaves.
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2015-05-13T20:58:39Z vraid: Pixel_Outlaw: flappy bird https://github.com/soegaard/flappy-bird
2015-05-13T21:00:05Z vraid: he made a breakout and space invaders too, they use timers rather than a loop though
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2015-05-13T21:52:41Z Riastradh: zacts: What's up about ops?
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2015-05-13T21:56:54Z turbofail: i think they were just trying to establish who the ops are
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2015-05-13T21:57:22Z turbofail: but i may be missing something because i have some selected people on ignore
2015-05-13T21:57:25Z Riastradh: Usually that comes up only if there is a problem in need of an op's assistance...
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2015-05-13T23:09:55Z Pixel_Outlaw: Kind of funny how sometimes I end up going back and making a scheme function much more simple than a version consisting of subfunctions.
2015-05-13T23:10:19Z Pixel_Outlaw: Cut down something from 3 subroutines into 1 . -_-
2015-05-13T23:12:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm reminded of some passages in Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution where there was extensive pride taking in refactoring "bumming" code until it was very "tense".
2015-05-13T23:13:04Z wasamasa: I prefer irky and clean
2015-05-13T23:13:09Z wasamasa: or squeaky even
2015-05-13T23:13:45Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yes. Bumming code has other connotations perhaps.
2015-05-13T23:15:13Z wasamasa: bumming sounds more like that atmospheric noise in lain
2015-05-13T23:16:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: Great book though.
2015-05-13T23:16:40Z wasamasa: that deeply discomforting hum of the wired
2015-05-13T23:16:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: Also fun to read "New Hacker's Dictionary"
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2015-05-13T23:20:57Z DrDuck2: do you guys think it's a bad idea for me to resume sicp while i've just started my first java/javascript job and i'm pretty unfamiliar with the codebase / process
2015-05-13T23:21:14Z DrDuck2: in free time
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2015-05-13T23:21:23Z wasamasa: hmm
2015-05-13T23:21:27Z vraid: DrDuck2: if you find it fun, go for it
2015-05-13T23:21:30Z wasamasa: reminds me that I should resume my studies of it
2015-05-13T23:22:47Z DrDuck2: feel like i should be spending my off time doing a big java project so i can get more comfy with the codebase at work quicker, but idk what will be the most useful long term to put free time in
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