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2015-04-16T00:26:32Z RexButler: Does anyone know how "local" differs from "let"
2015-04-16T00:26:33Z RexButler: ?
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2015-04-16T00:30:44Z vraid: which implementation has a 'local' form?
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2015-04-16T00:34:48Z RexButler: It's used in HTDP.
2015-04-16T00:34:57Z RexButler: Page 259
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2015-04-16T00:36:16Z RexButler: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/local.html
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2015-04-16T01:16:54Z RexButler: Is this a reasonable implementation of append?  Is there a way to avoid the reverse?
2015-04-16T01:16:56Z RexButler: http://sprunge.us/WSOX
2015-04-16T01:17:49Z RexButler: Hi zacts
2015-04-16T01:17:55Z zacts: hello
2015-04-16T01:18:02Z RexButler: Hi Tbone139
2015-04-16T01:18:07Z zacts: what's up RexButler ? :-)
2015-04-16T01:18:25Z RexButler: It's snowing here.
2015-04-16T01:18:40Z zacts: oh cool
2015-04-16T01:18:45Z zacts: it's raining and hot where I'm at
2015-04-16T01:18:52Z zacts: It's kind of tropical almost
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2015-04-16T01:21:23Z RexButler: Where do you live zacts?
2015-04-16T01:21:37Z zacts: RexButler: I live in the US
2015-04-16T01:21:41Z zacts: in the desert
2015-04-16T01:21:46Z RexButler: Utah here
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2015-04-16T01:22:15Z zacts: NM
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2015-04-16T01:27:56Z RexButler: I got a copy of HTPD.
2015-04-16T01:28:01Z RexButler: So far I like SICP better.
2015-04-16T01:28:14Z RexButler: But, I think I'll go over HTDP first.
2015-04-16T01:28:17Z zacts: yeah, I personally prefer the style and format of SICP much better than HTDP
2015-04-16T01:28:30Z zacts: RexButler: you may enjoy something like Scheme and the Art of Programming
2015-04-16T01:28:37Z zacts: although, it is pretty academic
2015-04-16T01:28:50Z zacts: some of the examples are too academically contrived, but it's still a cool book
2015-04-16T01:28:51Z RexButler: I might like that
2015-04-16T01:29:02Z zacts: it's free online, and you can get physical copies, but it's out of print
2015-04-16T01:29:05Z zacts: I own a copy of it
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2015-04-16T01:30:15Z RexButler: I can see why SICP isn't used as much anymore, but I like it.
2015-04-16T01:30:35Z zacts: well, SICP requires a calculus and math background, I guess
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2015-04-16T01:30:44Z zacts: but I don't think the math is all too difficult to learn
2015-04-16T01:31:06Z RexButler: I'm a math guy myself, so I don't mind
2015-04-16T01:31:09Z zacts: yeah
2015-04-16T01:31:20Z zacts: I like math too, but I'm reviewing much of it currently
2015-04-16T01:31:46Z zacts: I'm preparing to hopefully go for a two year math associates degree towards a bachelors and eventually masters
2015-04-16T01:33:39Z RexButler: I have an MS in math, but like CS training
2015-04-16T01:33:44Z RexButler: though I work as a software engineer
2015-04-16T01:33:59Z RexButler: err, not like, little
2015-04-16T01:34:33Z zacts: ah yeah, that's cool
2015-04-16T01:35:01Z RexButler: It's cool you are getting into scheme already
2015-04-16T01:35:04Z zacts: yeah
2015-04-16T01:35:08Z zacts: I'm all into CS and math
2015-04-16T01:35:29Z zacts: but, I find myself being a bit critical of many universities' CS pedagogy
2015-04-16T01:35:40Z zacts: and also math for that matter
2015-04-16T01:35:53Z RexButler: How so?
2015-04-16T01:35:53Z zacts: I'm teaching myself currently the math I was never taught in school
2015-04-16T01:36:04Z zacts: well, I'm still forming conclusions, and opinions.
2015-04-16T01:36:30Z zacts: but, I'm moving more towards the opinion that formal logic, at least an intro, and philosophy of logic should potentially be taught before algebra and calculus
2015-04-16T01:37:09Z zacts: and the foundations of math proofs should be taught much more early on
2015-04-16T01:37:29Z RexButler: hmm... At the U of Utah they don't have any discrete math classes or logic classes in the math dept, you have to go to CS and Phil. departments
2015-04-16T01:37:41Z RexButler: Which I didn't like
2015-04-16T01:37:46Z RexButler: (at least when I was there)
2015-04-16T01:37:47Z zacts: yeah, I'm starting to see math as more of a philosophy at it's core
2015-04-16T01:38:06Z zacts: you conjecture, and use logic to prove or disprove things, depending on assumptions
2015-04-16T01:38:15Z zacts: philosophy is all about questioning our assumptions
2015-04-16T01:38:25Z zacts: math is meaningless without proofs
2015-04-16T01:38:39Z BWV988: the uman love is just a philosophy XD
2015-04-16T01:38:44Z BWV988: math is math
2015-04-16T01:38:52Z zacts: BWV988: ?
2015-04-16T01:39:24Z BWV988: Human  XD
2015-04-16T01:40:37Z zacts: I think people have an incorrect notion of what a philosophy major truely can be
2015-04-16T01:40:52Z zacts: people equate philosophy as being similar to an english creative writing major or something
2015-04-16T01:40:59Z zacts: and that is not necessarily so
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2015-04-16T01:42:27Z BWV988: ok ok... it's better the silence. sorry for the bad written phrases. XD
2015-04-16T01:42:37Z zacts: BWV988: ah no, it's ok. :-)
2015-04-16T01:42:41Z zacts: I don't mean to scare you off
2015-04-16T01:43:07Z RexButler: I've always been interested in FOM (Foundations of Mathematics) and mathematical logic, but not as much in written philosophy
2015-04-16T01:44:10Z zacts: yeah, I took a logic class at my college a couple of semesters ago, and it's really influenced much of what I'm working on now
2015-04-16T01:44:23Z zacts: also, soon I'm going to skim through the MIT OCW Logic I / II / III
2015-04-16T01:44:37Z zacts: MIT even covers some ideas of Kurt Godel
2015-04-16T01:45:31Z zacts: RexButler: I have this idea to implement a math proof writing assistant in lisp / scheme, similar to another one that is on the web
2015-04-16T01:45:39Z zacts: I may even try for emacs lisp or something too
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2015-04-16T01:46:18Z RexButler: Which other one on the web?
2015-04-16T01:46:21Z zacts: but I feel often that people learn the mechanical process of solving equations, and then they reach a point where they have no idea what it means
2015-04-16T01:46:33Z zacts: and so then they reach a brick wall when trying to really understand higher level math
2015-04-16T01:46:46Z zacts: RexButler: http://www.cs.amherst.edu/~djv/pd/pd.html
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2015-04-16T01:48:46Z zacts: when I feel that the philosophy of logic and mathematical reasoning, and proofs, should be at the forefront of math near the beginning, after arithmetic, and possibly basic algebra
2015-04-16T01:49:14Z zacts: you should ask people to not only solve equations, but prove things to you, and things like that, and tie in math to other study domains
2015-04-16T01:49:53Z zacts: I think that the separate subdomains of study, majors, are artificial, and limiting
2015-04-16T01:50:03Z zacts: often
2015-04-16T01:50:47Z zacts: mathematical reasoning is more important than solving quadratic equations. If you don't know the fundamentals at a deep level, you'll eventually hit brick walls.
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2015-04-16T01:51:19Z zacts: but at least in the US, it seems many math departments don't teach proofs early on, or formal logic and reasoning
2015-04-16T01:51:22Z zacts: it's an afterthought
2015-04-16T01:51:25Z zacts: anyway, bbl
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2015-04-16T02:43:13Z Tbone139: RexButler: some implementations to mull over, the first being closest to yours http://blog.scheme.dk/2007/05/know-your-implementation.html
2015-04-16T02:43:48Z zacts: Tbone139: oh cool blog
2015-04-16T02:44:22Z zacts: although, why would you choose a scheme implementation based on speed benchmarks alone?
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2015-04-16T02:48:43Z Tbone139: just a blog I found, and I don't imagine you would
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2015-04-16T07:40:44Z taylanub: I know that recursion on a top-level binding can be slower than on one that's bound lexically, in some implementations.  those append implementations should probably control for the effect of that for the benchmark to be more meaningful.
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2015-04-16T07:43:54Z taylanub: and naive recursion grows the stack but I'm not sure if stack use has any effect on speed at all unless you hit the limit of a dynamically expanding stack and it reallocates it (and then the rarity of that operation, especially considering the likely exponential reallocation strategy, might still make it unimportant compared to other things)
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2015-04-16T07:45:55Z taylanub: and then the CPS variant can probably have all the lambda allocations optimized out in a smart implementation
2015-04-16T07:46:10Z taylanub: lots of implementation-specific things to consider.  dunno which optims are most common across all Scheme implementations.
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2015-04-16T18:04:22Z tcleval: hi, Do you guys know where I could find an simple expert system example in scheme?
2015-04-16T18:05:27Z ecraven: minikanren?
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2015-04-16T18:15:29Z kephra: tcleval, read Norvig - he explains how to write expert systems, macsyma and the like
2015-04-16T18:17:27Z kephra: tcleval, http://norvig.com/paip.html <- port chapter 16 source from Lisp
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