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2015-02-22T01:17:48Z acetoline: DrRacket seems pretty cool and well-designed
2015-02-22T01:17:57Z acetoline: what can you do with it
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2015-02-22T01:40:01Z ASau: zacts: OOP is useful when you have subtypes.
2015-02-22T01:40:33Z ASau: zacts: currently, I don't know another good way to handle them in conventional languages.
2015-02-22T02:07:53Z cojy_: row polymorphism
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2015-02-22T08:44:50Z acetoline: in typed racket, how do you check if a type is a subtype of another type?
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2015-02-22T12:12:46Z vanila: Hi
2015-02-22T12:13:07Z vanila: i want a while loop with 'break' inside
2015-02-22T12:13:21Z vanila: what would be the best way to implement it? I want to avoid call/cc if possible
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2015-02-22T12:31:40Z taylanub: vanila: in vanilla Scheme, call/cc is pretty much the only way.  otherwise delimited continuations will do; usually there's a convenience macro `let/ec' (let escape continuation) that one can use like e.g. (let/ec break (for-each (lambda (x) ... (when condition (break))) lst)).  the 'break' is any identifier that gets lexically bound; one can nest these as much as one wants, and it's basically
2015-02-22T12:31:40Z taylanub: continue, break, and return all in one!
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2015-02-22T12:32:42Z taylanub: it's analogous to Common Lisp's `block' macro
2015-02-22T12:33:03Z vanila: hmm i guess it's tricky because in scheme you're going to be able to pass 'break' around or even return it...
2015-02-22T12:33:22Z vanila: i dont want any of that, but i can't really stop it
2015-02-22T12:33:52Z taylanub: vanila: usually the compiler takes note of the continuation procedure not escaping (escape analysis), and can thus optimize it.
2015-02-22T12:34:36Z taylanub: it can really end up just as efficient as 'goto', more or less, from what I know, if the compiler is sufficiently smart
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2015-02-22T12:40:31Z vanila: argh :S
2015-02-22T12:40:40Z vanila: it's just i have this horrible monadic code
2015-02-22T12:40:54Z vanila: and it's so much simpler with a while loop, but i need a break
2015-02-22T12:41:04Z vanila: and I don't feel like i'm really simplifying anything if I switch a monad with call/cc
2015-02-22T12:41:36Z taylanub: I thought monads can support break and all
2015-02-22T12:41:55Z vanila: yeah but i want something simpler than monads
2015-02-22T12:42:02Z vanila: thats how i have it just now
2015-02-22T12:42:09Z taylanub: oh
2015-02-22T12:42:46Z taylanub: you could encapsulate the call/cc usage.  well, even without doing so, it isn't that horrible:  (call/cc (lambda (break) (for-each (lambda (x) ... (when condition (break))) lst)))
2015-02-22T12:43:09Z taylanub: almost as short as the let/ec variant, just perhaps less optimizable
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2015-02-22T13:58:25Z vibhavp: What does the sceme standard dictate about expressions like "(define define 1)"?
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2015-02-22T14:06:44Z vanila: I think you can have local variables called define e.g. (lambda (define) ..) but not actually (define define ..
2015-02-22T14:08:51Z vibhavp: vanila: (define define 2) does work
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2015-02-22T14:11:27Z taylanub: vibhavp: there is no authoritative RnRS implementation, so whichever implementation you tried it in might support it as an extension
2015-02-22T14:11:41Z taylanub: vibhavp: IIRC the standards explicitly give an example like (define define x), lemme check...
2015-02-22T14:12:04Z taylanub: page 27 of R7RS
2015-02-22T14:13:08Z taylanub: hm, that's about internal definitions.  dunno about the top-level
2015-02-22T14:13:39Z taylanub: oh, the top-level shouldn't matter because redefining an imported binding is an error
2015-02-22T14:13:50Z taylanub: and `define' will be imported from (scheme base)
2015-02-22T14:15:02Z vibhavp: it says its an error to define an identifier whose binding can determinate the meaning of the definition
2015-02-22T14:15:14Z vibhavp: taylanub: thanks
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2015-02-22T16:03:39Z Riastradh: gnomon: I'm thinking of splitting my blog into multiple files, sad as it makes me, because people started trying to link to it in papers submitted for publication.
2015-02-22T16:03:43Z Riastradh: Blag, excuse me.
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2015-02-22T16:36:30Z pjdelport: vibhavp: (define define 1) does not work everywhere, for what it's worth.
2015-02-22T16:37:12Z pjdelport: On Chicken, it fails with "Error: during expansion of (define ...) - redefinition of currently used defining form"
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2015-02-22T16:50:15Z ijp: it'll fail on all psyntax-based systems
2015-02-22T16:50:43Z ijp: doubly failing if imports are immutable
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2015-02-22T17:08:27Z kephra wonders, if this channel might be the right place to convince a scheme coder to join my project
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2015-02-22T17:10:01Z kephra: to delegate testing and error handling
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2015-02-22T19:56:29Z vanila: That web site has not been updated since the beta release of v0.98b1 in 2009. We are now working to add preliminary support for the R7RS (small) standard to Larceny
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2015-02-22T19:56:31Z vanila: \o/
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2015-02-22T22:30:30Z ManDay: Concerning ellipsis in define-syntax. Can  (define-syntax X (syntax-rules () [(_ (a ...) ...) Y]))  be made any sense of with an appropriate Y? Meaning how would Y know whether I mean to "continue" a ... along the outer repetition or the inner repetition.
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2015-02-22T22:33:07Z ManDay: Do you understand me?
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2015-02-22T22:35:22Z vanila: yes, I think the ...'s are ok
2015-02-22T22:35:27Z vanila: you can use them twice
2015-02-22T22:36:01Z ManDay: But according to my understanding, using "a ..." in Y then would be highly ambiguous
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2015-02-22T22:36:54Z ManDay: consider (X (u v w) (x y z) (r s t)) - would "a ..." expand to "u x r" or rather "u v w"?
2015-02-22T22:37:26Z ManDay: Clearly, the ambiguity can be increased by nesting it even deeper.
2015-02-22T22:37:38Z vanila: I think you need the same structure of ... pattern in Y
2015-02-22T22:37:50Z vanila: so: (a ...) ...
2015-02-22T22:37:56Z vanila: or: (foo bar a ...) ...
2015-02-22T22:38:02Z vanila: but you don't have a lot of other options
2015-02-22T22:38:34Z ManDay: But that would severely restrict me then, since I would not be able to "extract" either "u x r" nor "u v w" on their own
2015-02-22T22:39:11Z ManDay: Which I should be able to do, just like the (define-syntax) of "let" will expand: http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/further.html#./further:h0
2015-02-22T22:39:17Z vanila: yes with syntax-rules you are transforming one pattern into another
2015-02-22T22:39:37Z ManDay: vanila: "Yes" to what?
2015-02-22T22:39:39Z vanila: if you wanted to extract a specific one like the 2nd out of 3, you can do a pattern with no ...'s
2015-02-22T22:39:45Z vanila: "that would severely restrict me"
2015-02-22T22:40:02Z ManDay: vanila: Have you looked at how (let) is defined in that link?
2015-02-22T22:40:03Z vanila: it's quite restricted in the way it works
2015-02-22T22:40:03Z ijp: ManDay: you can think of there being a "level" associated with vars which says how many ...s the need to be used with
2015-02-22T22:41:00Z ManDay: ijp: But in the (let) case I *can* extract, say, "u r x" from (u a) (r b) (x c).
2015-02-22T22:41:40Z ManDay: This capability seems to stop when the ( ) have an ellipsis on their own, though.
2015-02-22T22:41:48Z ManDay: It seems... inconsistent?
2015-02-22T22:42:00Z vanila: it's very consistent
2015-02-22T22:42:00Z ManDay: (As in: Limited to exactly 1 "level")
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2015-02-22T22:43:38Z ManDay: Oh, yeah, might be, on a second though
2015-02-22T22:43:42Z ManDay: I guess I'll have to try
2015-02-22T22:44:27Z ManDay: Just another thing: (and) was defined using define-syntax in their. It should be doable with (lambda), though, correct?
2015-02-22T22:45:01Z ijp: ManDay: if you thunk all the arguments
2015-02-22T22:46:04Z ManDay: ijp: Ah, yeah. Right.
2015-02-22T22:46:12Z ManDay: Thanks!
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