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2015-02-21T10:56:56Z zacts: hum..
2015-02-21T10:57:00Z zacts: what is the usefulness of OOP?
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2015-02-21T10:57:35Z zacts: when there is functional programming, such as Haskell / Erlang / Clojure
2015-02-21T10:57:57Z zacts: scheme seems to support multiple ways of thinking about things, and doing things
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2015-02-21T11:03:45Z wasamasa: clojure has support for OOP, too
2015-02-21T11:03:50Z wasamasa: see defgeneric and defmethod
2015-02-21T11:04:03Z zacts: ah cool
2015-02-21T11:04:08Z zacts: well when is OOP useful?
2015-02-21T11:04:19Z wasamasa: the problem is that nobody really knows what OOP means
2015-02-21T11:04:24Z wasamasa: neither do they know what FP means
2015-02-21T11:04:32Z zacts: oh
2015-02-21T11:04:53Z wasamasa: I personally define OOP as coupling state and behaviour
2015-02-21T11:04:56Z zacts: due to ignorance, or the inability for anyone to clearly define these?
2015-02-21T11:05:01Z wasamasa: the latter
2015-02-21T11:05:09Z zacts: oh
2015-02-21T11:05:13Z zacts: ok
2015-02-21T11:05:22Z zacts: so according to your definition, when is this useful?
2015-02-21T11:05:24Z wasamasa: and if I were to enforce my own definition, then closures would give you these for free :P
2015-02-21T11:06:03Z zacts: hum.. ok
2015-02-21T11:06:07Z wasamasa: well, it's useful whenever you need to create instances of a data type that has both state and behaviour
2015-02-21T11:06:31Z wasamasa: in C you'd have these with structs that contain normal fields and function pointers
2015-02-21T11:06:36Z wasamasa: in scheme records should suffice
2015-02-21T11:07:15Z wasamasa: clojure offers generic methods which you can use on anything resembling the data type you're operating on
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2015-02-21T11:07:31Z wasamasa: CL takes it a fair bit further with CLOS and allows you to implement your own idea of OOP thanks to MOP
2015-02-21T11:07:40Z zacts: CL == common lisp?
2015-02-21T11:07:42Z wasamasa: yes
2015-02-21T11:07:56Z zacts: hum.. perhaps I should learn CLOS and MOP
2015-02-21T11:08:00Z wasamasa: remember that all of these I've listed do it differently than languages like C++ and java
2015-02-21T11:08:09Z wasamasa: which are commonly used to teach people "OOP"
2015-02-21T11:08:27Z wasamasa: then these people are surprised when I tell them javascript is OOP, too :P
2015-02-21T11:08:30Z zacts: I guess I'm skeptical of people who say "functional programming trumps OOP". I'm wondering when to use which metaphor
2015-02-21T11:08:43Z wasamasa: zacts: I'd try what works best with your problem
2015-02-21T11:09:01Z zacts: hum.. how does CLOS differ from C++?
2015-02-21T11:09:15Z wasamasa: it's not tied to classes
2015-02-21T11:09:26Z wasamasa: so, you don't run into problems like multiple inheritance
2015-02-21T11:09:31Z zacts: oh I see, I think ruby is this way too
2015-02-21T11:09:45Z wasamasa: yes, ruby and python are thankfully flexible enough
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2015-02-21T11:10:09Z zacts: hum can scheme or lisp be compiled down to low level machine code? I do know of chicken..
2015-02-21T11:10:31Z wasamasa: sure
2015-02-21T11:10:52Z zacts: but efficiently
2015-02-21T11:11:16Z wasamasa: it's more work though than interpreting or compiling to another language
2015-02-21T11:11:33Z zacts: I guess I'm wondering when I would want to use C++ when I could compile lisp or scheme down to machine code also
2015-02-21T11:11:52Z zacts: hum.. I think there was sbcl and Clasp?
2015-02-21T11:11:55Z zacts: I can't remember
2015-02-21T11:12:00Z wasamasa: for CL I've only seen that the compilers emit machine code they use instead of interpreted code, however that doesn't apply to the "executable"
2015-02-21T11:12:29Z wasamasa: http://scheme2006.cs.uchicago.edu/11-ghuloum.pdf
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2015-02-21T11:13:00Z wasamasa: here's a paper that describes how one could build a scheme implementation that compiles to machine code specific to an architecture
2015-02-21T11:13:08Z zacts: oh neat
2015-02-21T11:13:25Z wasamasa: there's a few implementations out there that have taken this route
2015-02-21T11:13:56Z wasamasa: http://larcenists.org/
2015-02-21T11:14:29Z zacts: hum.. which scheme implementations would work well on embedded platforms?
2015-02-21T11:14:31Z wasamasa: ikarus would be another one
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2015-02-21T11:15:23Z wasamasa: hmm, that's a bit trickier to answer as it depends on the specific platform
2015-02-21T11:15:52Z wasamasa: https://github.com/technomancy/microscheme
2015-02-21T11:16:19Z wasamasa: here's one technomancy forked for writing firmware for his own mechanical keyboard
2015-02-21T11:16:39Z zacts: oh cool
2015-02-21T11:17:06Z wasamasa: chicken is less good for that I've heard since it requires a bit too much RAM
2015-02-21T11:18:11Z wasamasa: perhaps armpit scheme?
2015-02-21T11:21:29Z zacts: ah ok
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2015-02-21T11:33:49Z kephra: zacts, I suggest to take a look at a running Smalltalk application (inspector) to see the usefulness of OOP
2015-02-21T11:34:23Z zacts: ah ok
2015-02-21T11:34:52Z kephra: OOP was known to be extremely useful for non modal GUIs
2015-02-21T11:35:19Z kephra: prior to OOP style coding most UI had been modal
2015-02-21T11:35:30Z kephra: ask user for input, wait, process input
2015-02-21T11:36:00Z wasamasa: well, you can use FRP for that
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2015-02-21T11:36:28Z kephra: typical non modal UI/UX without OOP requires closures
2015-02-21T11:36:43Z wasamasa: game development can work with ECS
2015-02-21T11:36:57Z kephra: leading to the well known JavaScript callback hell (that is also caused by the lack of coroutines in JS)
2015-02-21T11:37:05Z wasamasa: which prefers composition over inheritance
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2015-02-21T11:39:49Z wasamasa: http://blog.lmorchard.com/2013/11/27/entity-component-system/
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2015-02-21T12:03:00Z kephra: ECS sounds interesting, but requires a lot of discipline if multithreaded in C
2015-02-21T12:06:10Z kephra: and of course the notation in the article rings bells, I was used to TLA + Hex notation
2015-02-21T12:08:31Z kephra: e.g.: UWP Usdiki 1015 C260683-4 913 K0 V M8 D
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2015-02-21T18:18:57Z ApeShot: Anyone here using Gambit-c ?
2015-02-21T18:19:21Z ApeShot: I am looking for something like `eval-when`
2015-02-21T18:19:31Z ApeShot: I need to have some state shared between various macro-expanders
2015-02-21T18:20:03Z ApeShot: I am porting a pattern matching library to Scheme and the extensible patterns are stored as functions in a compile-time table
2015-02-21T18:20:16Z ApeShot: Which is shared between the pattern matcher expander and the macro used to define patterns
2015-02-21T18:27:39Z Riastradh: If you are reaching for EVAL-WHEN, you need to rethink your program's organization...
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2015-02-21T18:39:13Z ApeShot: Riastradh: In ordinary circumstances I agree with you
2015-02-21T18:39:17Z ApeShot: But in this case I know what I am doin
2015-02-21T18:39:19Z ApeShot: g
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2015-02-21T18:40:15Z ApeShot: Even Racket has `define-for-syntax` which serves exactly this purpose
2015-02-21T18:40:28Z ApeShot: That is to say, one may wish to define utilities for expanding a set of similar macros
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2015-02-21T18:40:34Z ApeShot: As far as I can tell in Gambit this is not possible
2015-02-21T18:40:44Z ApeShot: That is to say, one cannot `define` a function and then use it in macro-expansion
2015-02-21T18:40:57Z ApeShot: So two macros cannot share external dependencies
2015-02-21T18:41:37Z ApeShot: If my purposes were simply to share a set of utility functions I could use gambit's `include` directive at the top level of each macro definition, but I also need to share state.
2015-02-21T18:42:25Z wasamasa: sharing state :E
2015-02-21T18:44:16Z ApeShot: Yes, under ordinary circumstances this is not advisable.  In this case, it is.
2015-02-21T18:44:41Z ApeShot: https://github.com/VincentToups/shadchen
2015-02-21T18:44:48Z ApeShot: I am porting that library to gambit-c
2015-02-21T18:45:24Z ApeShot: You will see that shadchen is an extensible pattern matcher.  Patterns are fundamentally macro-expansion time entities and so the user of the library must be able to extend the pattern matcher at macro-expansion time
2015-02-21T18:45:36Z wasamasa: oh dear
2015-02-21T18:45:46Z wasamasa: what's wrong with match?
2015-02-21T18:46:04Z wasamasa: http://download.plt-scheme.org/doc/103p1/pdf/match.pdf
2015-02-21T18:46:15Z ApeShot: Will match run on gambit?  Is match extensible?
2015-02-21T18:46:21Z wasamasa: it's available in guile and chicken at least
2015-02-21T18:46:23Z ApeShot: Does it really matter?
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2015-02-21T18:47:14Z ApeShot: I guess no one knows how to make gambit-c behave this way, is what I am getting from this discussion.
2015-02-21T18:47:42Z ijp: wasamasa: match isn't extensible
2015-02-21T18:47:50Z wasamasa: blast
2015-02-21T18:48:00Z ijp: I mean, I can kinda think of a way to do it, but it's kinda awful
2015-02-21T18:48:08Z wasamasa: https://github.com/alvatar/sphere-core/blob/master/src/match-macros.scm
2015-02-21T18:48:16Z wasamasa: here it is for gambit I guess
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2015-02-21T18:48:27Z ijp: istr foof suggesting he'd get around to it eventually, whenever that is
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2015-02-21T18:49:08Z ijp: there is a racket inspired extensible matcher for guile, but it's not a part of guile proper, so no-one uses it
2015-02-21T18:49:16Z ApeShot: ijp: I tried writing a macro which invoked eval in its body (returning '()) but it seems that the environment in which macro-expansion happens does not permit `define`
2015-02-21T18:49:22Z ApeShot: Eg, it doesn't act like top-level
2015-02-21T18:49:57Z ApeShot: I'm frankly a bit surprised that one cannot even invoke previously defined functions in the macro-expansion context in gambit
2015-02-21T18:50:05Z ApeShot: Or at least I can't find the documented way to do so
2015-02-21T18:50:14Z ApeShot: At the very least that use case is uncontroversial
2015-02-21T18:50:23Z ijp: if gambit works like most implementations, those functions don't even exist when macros are expanded
2015-02-21T18:51:13Z ijp: but either way, I have no idea how gambit does anything, nor any inclination to find out
2015-02-21T18:52:37Z ApeShot: Well, this would be the use-case for `eval-when`.  Common Lisp gets along quite well giving the application programmer the ability to control very precisely the evaluation time of expressions.
2015-02-21T18:53:26Z ApeShot: Although in other contexts I have criticized the languages general philosophy of letting the application programmer do anything.
2015-02-21T18:53:32Z vanila: why are you using gambit-c?
2015-02-21T18:53:40Z ApeShot: lambdanative
2015-02-21T18:53:44Z ApeShot: I am writing apps for Android
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2015-02-21T18:53:52Z ijp: really? I thought everyone only used one specific set of options for eval-when
2015-02-21T18:54:15Z ijp: (load eval compile) or whatever
2015-02-21T18:54:21Z ApeShot: I have worked in commercial products where eval-when was used in complicated ways (not that I would say that it was used wisely)
2015-02-21T18:54:44Z ApeShot: Anyway, I absolutely love lambdanative as an app development environment
2015-02-21T18:54:46Z ApeShot: Its wonderful
2015-02-21T18:55:02Z ApeShot: But I miss some of the power of Common Lisp, I guess
2015-02-21T18:55:30Z vanila: im pretty surprised you can't call a user defined function from define-macro
2015-02-21T18:56:36Z ApeShot: I have found things which indicate that one should be able to do so if the function is defined in a previously `load`ed file
2015-02-21T18:56:39Z ApeShot: But this appears to not be the case
2015-02-21T18:56:43Z ApeShot: at least not in gsi
2015-02-21T18:57:10Z vanila: https://github.com/feeley/gambit/blob/88f730a281c1319f1292b29ba29b6e69a11a1aad/gsc/_x86%23.scm#L264
2015-02-21T18:57:10Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/oyx6njd
2015-02-21T18:57:17Z vanila: you can define things inside a macro.. at least
2015-02-21T18:57:34Z vanila: thats not enough to do what you wanted though
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2015-02-21T19:00:13Z ApeShot: I guess for my own purposes I can just extend the pattern matcher statically, as I need to
2015-02-21T19:00:19Z vanila: ApeShot, maybe you can use meta define & syntax-case ike this: https://github.com/feeley/gambit/blob/88f730a281c1319f1292b29ba29b6e69a11a1aad/lib/psyntax73.ss#L134
2015-02-21T19:00:19Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/m9hkhkd
2015-02-21T19:00:38Z ApeShot: I think if I roped in Syntax-case I could get it to work
2015-02-21T19:00:48Z vanila: well mayeb this meta thing even worse for define-macro
2015-02-21T19:00:53Z vanila: works*
2015-02-21T19:01:14Z vanila: there is even a mention of eval-when in there
2015-02-21T19:01:34Z vanila: i would have to actually have gambit to test any of this though
2015-02-21T19:01:36Z ApeShot: Good suggestion
2015-02-21T19:05:00Z Riastradh: ApeShot: DEFINE-FOR-SYNTAX, sure.  EVAL-WHEN, no.
2015-02-21T19:05:38Z Riastradh: No idea about Gambit, sorry.
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2015-02-21T19:17:46Z vanila: this idea of 'defpattern' is interesting
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2015-02-21T20:16:43Z acetoline: anyone here used Typed Racket?
2015-02-21T20:17:56Z offby1: acetoline: stick around for a day or so; a lot of the discussion here is indeed about typed racket; and some of the language's designers (or maybe just very knowledgeable users) show up
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2015-02-21T20:19:05Z acetoline: cool
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2015-02-21T20:30:58Z boycottg00gle: there is also #racket
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