2015-02-19T00:00:13Z kephra: as long as the server replies with an S-Expression
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2015-02-19T00:01:39Z kephra: the implementation is of course still asyncronous, as its running within a browser under JavaScript
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2015-02-19T00:01:59Z kephra: but the continuation is hidden from the user/coder
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2015-02-19T00:05:30Z koz_: Is this a channel for Scheme in general?
2015-02-19T00:05:44Z ijp: this is a channel for hatching schemes
2015-02-19T00:05:44Z kephra: koz_, sure
2015-02-19T00:06:10Z kephra: ijp, invasion of the toy schemes
2015-02-19T00:06:11Z koz_: OK, cool - I'm trying to learn Kawa Scheme at the moment, and I like the language. I'm just unclear on how Scheme does abstract data types.
2015-02-19T00:06:11Z ijp: which would be an amusing euphemism for forking Chicken
2015-02-19T00:06:22Z koz_: Like, say, I want a binary tree.
2015-02-19T00:06:29Z koz_: How would I implement this? Just using lists?
2015-02-19T00:06:30Z ijp: koz_: scheme doesn't
2015-02-19T00:08:10Z koz_: Or a better example would be a hashtable (or any other dictionary-type structure).
2015-02-19T00:08:58Z kephra: some schemes have an hash table type, but not r4rs (the base of all toy schemes)
2015-02-19T00:09:18Z ijp: the closest thing to a truly abstract type would be hiding the implementation with a module
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2015-02-19T00:09:51Z kephra: what about using a lambda/letrec to implement abstract data types
2015-02-19T00:09:55Z koz_: Ah, ok.
2015-02-19T00:10:00Z kephra: would this be possible?
2015-02-19T00:10:03Z koz_: Well, that's basically the main thing I needed to know.
2015-02-19T00:10:06Z ijp: kephra: sure, but I wouldn't
2015-02-19T00:10:22Z koz_: AFAIK, Kawa is R6RS-compliant.
2015-02-19T00:10:30Z ijp: I really doubt that
2015-02-19T00:11:13Z kephra: ijp, *yeah* I've stated to dislike common lisp after digging deeper how how objects are implemented (CLOS over common loops)
2015-02-19T00:11:32Z kongtomorrow: koz_: aware of vector? Basically an array. That's the only non-obvious thing I can think of that you'd want for a hash table.
2015-02-19T00:11:49Z kephra: this is so much bloat to do something, that is totally against Lisp
2015-02-19T00:11:57Z koz_: kongtomorrow: Yeah - I was just wondering if there was something higher-level. But that's OK - I can work with that.
2015-02-19T00:12:10Z koz_: Thanks - I'll go back to TSPL for now. :)
2015-02-19T00:12:36Z kongtomorrow: koz_: out of curiousity, what would be higher level than vector but lower level than the table itself?
2015-02-19T00:13:15Z koz_: Lol, what I meant was 'does Scheme already have something like a hashtable or dictionary-type thing'.
2015-02-19T00:13:21Z koz_: Like, in library form or something.
2015-02-19T00:14:14Z kephra: koz_, in short: abstract data types (aka objects), are glorified site effects from viewpoint of a scheme or lisp coder. and everybody here will tell, you that side effects are as evil as war, even if you start war (aka side effects) with the most justest intension, war stays evil!
2015-02-19T00:14:30Z koz_: kephra: Fair enough.
2015-02-19T00:14:43Z ijp: koz_: it depends what you mean by "scheme"
2015-02-19T00:14:48Z koz_: But you can have purely-functional data structures.
2015-02-19T00:14:59Z koz_: But I see your point.
2015-02-19T00:15:16Z kephra: koz_, /join ##smalltalk, and people will tell the opposite ;-)
2015-02-19T00:15:28Z kephra: s/people/I/
2015-02-19T00:16:11Z ijp: pre-r6rs: no, unless you think of alists as a suitable dictionary structure. r6rs has hashtables. future r7rs may or may not, I've stopped caring. any good implementation will of course have them in some more or less incompatible version.
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2015-02-19T00:17:11Z koz_: OK, thanks - that's exactly what I needed to know.
2015-02-19T00:17:12Z ijp: I have two types of functional map in pfds (r6rs only), but I have no clue if they will run on kawa
2015-02-19T00:17:22Z kephra: the r6rs definition is much to complex to be of good use, its also overengineered at the wrong place, imho
2015-02-19T00:17:47Z ijp: kephra: of hashtables?
2015-02-19T00:18:09Z kephra: a hash table is a perfect example, where one can distinct between storage and access methods
2015-02-19T00:18:17Z ijp: if they have no good use, then I must be doing something ungood
2015-02-19T00:18:17Z kephra: in Perl speak bless and tie
2015-02-19T00:19:55Z kephra: instead of offering to tie the storage e.g. to disk, or to some C routine, or a cloud database, I have to think about a algo to produce good distributed numbers for the hash.
2015-02-19T00:20:13Z kephra: so I need a CS degree to use that hash
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2015-02-19T00:39:32Z kephra: koz_, (define stack (let ((pile ())) (lambda args (if (eqv? args ()) (let ((ret (car pile))) (set! pile (cdr pile)) ret) (set! pile (append args pile))))))
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2015-02-19T00:42:53Z davexunit: is there no way to do pattern matching or a case-lambda in r6rs or whatever?
2015-02-19T00:43:23Z davexunit: I don't like all that that car/cdring
2015-02-19T00:44:01Z kephra: koz_, (define stack (lambda () (let ((pile ())) (lambda args (if (eqv? args ()) (let ((ret (car pile))) (set! pile (cdr pile)) ret) (set! pile (append args pile)))))))
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2015-02-19T00:45:16Z kephra: koz_, the first implements a stack singleton, the later a stack class
2015-02-19T00:45:55Z ijp: davexunit: case-lambda is in r6rs, but not general matching
2015-02-19T00:46:30Z ijp: I forget if foof did it himself, but the shinn matcher has been ported
2015-02-19T00:46:50Z davexunit: thanks for the info ijp
2015-02-19T00:47:05Z davexunit: I have very little knowledge of what's actually in the various standards
2015-02-19T00:47:12Z davexunit: I just write Guile and go on with life.
2015-02-19T00:47:18Z cojy_: yo davexunit mind if i pm?
2015-02-19T00:48:15Z davexunit: go ahead
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2015-02-19T04:21:41Z offby1: rudybot: que es mas macho: foof o shinn?
2015-02-19T04:21:41Z rudybot: *offby1: forget to ask, are you Alex Shinn?
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2015-02-19T04:24:32Z offby1: rudybot: nossir, I am not
2015-02-19T04:24:33Z rudybot: *offby1: nossir
2015-02-19T04:24:37Z offby1: nuh-uh
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2015-02-19T05:49:32Z HisaoNakai: o/
2015-02-19T05:51:01Z HisaoNakai: How does one, non-implementation-specifically, manipulate the file pointer in R5RS Scheme?
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2015-02-19T05:56:28Z HisaoNakai: (I looked around in TYS and TSPL3 and didn't see anything..)
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2015-02-19T07:01:18Z HisaoNakai: Anyone? :\
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2015-02-19T07:26:35Z z0d: HisaoNakai: you mean seek()?
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2015-02-19T07:32:10Z HisaoNakai: z0d: If it lets one jump to arbitary locations in a file being read from/written to, then yes :)
2015-02-19T07:32:20Z z0d: yeah, it is
2015-02-19T07:32:34Z z0d: AFAIK R5RS doesn't define such thing. your best bet is to use an implementation-specific POSIX library
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2015-02-19T07:33:26Z HisaoNakai: z0d: no SRFI either?
2015-02-19T07:33:45Z HisaoNakai: (I think I saw one but was likely in the withdrawn category)
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2015-02-19T07:36:33Z z0d: I don't see any
2015-02-19T07:38:09Z z0d: oh, this one: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-68/srfi-68.html
2015-02-19T07:38:31Z HisaoNakai: Aye.
2015-02-19T07:38:48Z HisaoNakai: I guess I'll have to use Chicken's PORT-POSITION.
2015-02-19T07:39:23Z HisaoNakai: (and not bother about implementation-portable code, as the wiki said.)
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2015-02-19T07:43:29Z wasamasa: HisaoNakai: out of curiosity, why did you assume you can write all your code in an implementation-independent manner?
2015-02-19T07:43:51Z HisaoNakai: Hey, wasamasa . I didn't, was just curious if I could o.o
2015-02-19T07:44:13Z wasamasa: HisaoNakai: well, if you avoid implementation-specific stuff, you can :P
2015-02-19T07:44:29Z wasamasa: which is, a lot
2015-02-19T07:48:24Z wasamasa: it doesn't help that the more interesting SRFIs depend on implementation-specific support either
2015-02-19T07:48:48Z HisaoNakai: wow, wat ^
2015-02-19T07:49:42Z HisaoNakai: wasamasa: and, that chicken doesn't implement R6RS (which, I think, has more I/O built in)
2015-02-19T07:49:47Z wasamasa: like, SRFI-19
2015-02-19T07:50:11Z wasamasa: "This SRFI cannot be written in completely standard Scheme. In particular, there must be some system-independent method of finding the values for CURRENT-TIME. The GNU C function, gettimeofday might prove useful to implementors."
2015-02-19T07:50:37Z wasamasa: HisaoNakai: no, it instead went of implementing useful bits of r7rs
2015-02-19T07:50:46Z wasamasa: *for
2015-02-19T07:51:17Z HisaoNakai: :\
2015-02-19T07:51:24Z wasamasa: what?
2015-02-19T07:51:29Z wasamasa: I mean, think about it logically
2015-02-19T07:51:43Z wasamasa: how are you going to figure out other times if you don't know the current time
2015-02-19T07:52:06Z HisaoNakai: no, I directed that at R5RS -> R7RS
2015-02-19T07:52:28Z wasamasa: well, that's a different story
2015-02-19T07:52:33Z HisaoNakai: Is R7RS a superset of R6RS?
2015-02-19T07:53:23Z wasamasa: no, it's a clean break after the r6rs controversies
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2015-02-19T07:54:27Z wasamasa: with one committee working on a small and another on a large version
2015-02-19T07:55:17Z wasamasa: the former did finish their work a few years ago IIRC, the latter didn't yet
2015-02-19T07:55:19Z HisaoNakai: Ha, I was going to ask something about the 'large/small' thing...what consitutes a 'large language'? A lot of syntax/special forms? A large standard library?
2015-02-19T07:58:11Z wasamasa: I think it's more about the standard library
2015-02-19T07:58:23Z wasamasa: like, providing FFI
2015-02-19T07:58:44Z wasamasa: or making posix mandatory
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2015-02-19T07:59:35Z HisaoNakai: that doesn't sound like a bad thing.
2015-02-19T08:00:23Z wasamasa: I'm not sure why they voted for CLR FFI :P
2015-02-19T08:00:36Z HisaoNakai: wut
2015-02-19T08:01:37Z wasamasa: and java FFI
2015-02-19T08:02:15Z wasamasa: and loop syntax?
2015-02-19T08:02:22Z HisaoNakai: ^dafuq
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2015-02-19T08:02:29Z HisaoNakai: we can has recursion :|
2015-02-19T08:03:08Z wasamasa: at least they've dropped python FFI :P
2015-02-19T08:03:23Z HisaoNakai: lol
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2015-02-19T08:03:57Z wasamasa: http://tinyurl.com/wg2-votes
2015-02-19T08:05:04Z wasamasa: also, dbm?
2015-02-19T08:05:13Z wasamasa: that kind of stuff should go into an external library
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2015-02-19T08:10:16Z HisaoNakai: wasamasa: interesting.
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2015-02-19T08:10:29Z HisaoNakai: I wonder when they'll be finished.
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2015-02-19T12:56:52Z ski: kephra : "abstract data types (aka objects)" -- abstract data types are different from objects ..
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2015-02-19T13:02:44Z kephra: objects is a wide term, where every language (but smalltalk) has its own wrong definition
2015-02-19T13:02:55Z kephra: abstract data types are a theory behind that
2015-02-19T13:03:10Z ski . o O ( <http://community.schemewiki.org/?object-oriented-programming> )
2015-02-19T13:04:36Z kephra: but basically both are same: I have a hidden state, and I'm only able to access this with methods that might have side effects on the state
2015-02-19T13:05:56Z ecraven: Riastradh: greetings :) do you have any idea how to make MIT/GNU Scheme WRITE strings exactly as they are read? for example "ä" works fine, but "ß" does not
2015-02-19T13:06:06Z ecraven: (just entering it at the REPL shows the problem)
2015-02-19T13:07:48Z ski: i agree that "object-oriented" is a vague term
2015-02-19T13:08:11Z ski: however, one common view of an object is a record of methods which closes over some state that can only be directly accessed by those methods
2015-02-19T13:09:28Z pjb: Alan Kay meant "message-oriented" when he said "object-oriented".  It would have been clearer if he had implemented message passing as an asynchronous procedure, instead of as a synchronous subroutine call.  Ie. if he had jumpted to actors directly.
2015-02-19T13:11:05Z pjb: Which may sound strange, since Sussman found that implementing actors and closures lead to the same code.
2015-02-19T13:11:18Z pjb: I must have a different actor model in mind.
2015-02-19T13:11:57Z Riastradh: ecraven: No, because there are multiple equivalent representations of each string.
2015-02-19T13:12:32Z Riastradh: For example, "\040" is the same as " ".  Should (write "\040") yield the text `"\040"'?
2015-02-19T13:13:37Z pjb: Well, I'm in accord with nowadays model of Actors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor_model ; I guess Sussman implemented a simplified (synchronous) version to find equivalence with closures.
2015-02-19T13:16:41Z ecraven: Riastradh: so the "solution" is to actually DISPLAY the strings instead of WRITE them?
2015-02-19T13:17:39Z kephra: ecraven, the ß might also be a character set problem
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2015-02-19T13:17:46Z kephra: do you use latin1 or uft8?
2015-02-19T13:18:07Z ecraven: kephra: the point is, MIT/GNU Scheme should ideally ignore the encoding, and just treat the string as a byte array (which it mostly does anyway)
2015-02-19T13:18:24Z ecraven: kephra: emacs takes care of only sending utf-8 and treating everything it gets as utf-8
2015-02-19T13:18:38Z kephra: *ok* did you try (display "Straße")
2015-02-19T13:18:49Z ecraven: kephra: yes, display works
2015-02-19T13:19:02Z kephra: thats a feature of write vs display
2015-02-19T13:19:07Z ecraven: however, when interacting with scheme with SLIME, the results of expressions are WRITEn, not DISPLAYd
2015-02-19T13:19:15Z kephra: write is the computer readable form, while display is the human readable form
2015-02-19T13:19:52Z kephra: sure, the REPL uses write for output
2015-02-19T13:20:44Z Riastradh: I think it's a little silly for WRITE to write any non-US-ASCII code points literally, really.
2015-02-19T13:20:54Z ecraven: indeed, but this makes working with utf-8 impossible (because MIT/GNU Scheme insists on mangling characters)
2015-02-19T13:21:20Z ecraven: Riastradh: well, I'd say that depends, if I *know* I want exactly that, why wouldn't it be ok to provide it?
2015-02-19T13:21:48Z Riastradh: It doesn't mangle anything -- READ will read back exactly the same string from the notation WRITE produces.
2015-02-19T13:22:33Z ecraven: and that would be great, if the repl didn't use WRITE :)
2015-02-19T13:23:22Z ecraven: of course, this is rarely a problem for english speakers, as everything they type work correctly anyway :-/
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2015-02-19T13:26:31Z Riastradh: Not disputing that.  All I meant by the US-ASCII comment is that ISO-8859-1 was a poor choice of limited default.
2015-02-19T13:27:14Z ecraven: Riastradh: Would you happen to know where the code that does the slashification lives? Could I (with small changes) modify my local version of MIT/GNU Scheme to not slashify any characters?
2015-02-19T13:27:26Z ecraven: I've been looking in unpars, output and port, but haven't been successful so far
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2015-02-19T14:09:32Z serses: is there any other program to compile scheme besides mit-gnu scheme on windows?
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2015-02-19T14:17:26Z kephra: Riastradh, UTF8 is even worse. imho, its impossible to implement UTF8 both sane and correct. With the result that many perfectly stable old 8bit apps suddenly core dumped with bad UTF8 transition.
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2015-02-19T14:22:34Z Riastradh: Many perfectly stable old apps suddenly broke with bad XYZ for plenty of different XYZ.  Dealing with internationalization well is hard, and there's no silver bullet, but I haven't seen anything easier to deal with for internationalized text than UTF-8.
2015-02-19T14:23:19Z LeoNerd: UTF-8 is nice. It's on my list of "things I wish I'd invented, so I could claim the credit" :P
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2015-02-19T14:24:07Z Riastradh: ecraven: Check your mail for a detailed response with a suggested roadmap for how to proceed.
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2015-02-19T14:32:50Z ecraven: Riastradh: thank you very much!
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2015-02-19T20:46:38Z koz_: Hi all. This will sound daft, but I don't get continuations. I've read the relevant part of TSPL several times, but I still don't 'get it'.
2015-02-19T20:46:50Z koz_: Could someone help me out with understanding this concept?
2015-02-19T20:48:33Z wasamasa: someone explained it to me as a computed GOTO
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2015-02-19T20:50:45Z wasamasa: which is a concept that's more obvious for people who have written assembly or implemented a stack-based language for an interpreter
2015-02-19T20:51:03Z wasamasa: since in those pretty much all control structures compile down to GOTOs
2015-02-19T20:51:46Z koz_: Well, it's not obvious to me. I look at all the call/cc examples and they just plain don't make sense to me.
2015-02-19T20:52:04Z wasamasa: no, the concept of representing control flow with GOTOs I mean
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2015-02-19T21:12:11Z cojy_: koz_: what happens when evaluating the term 1?
2015-02-19T21:12:21Z koz_: cojy_: You get 1.
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2015-02-19T21:12:35Z koz_: Numbers in Scheme evaluate to themselves.
2015-02-19T21:12:49Z cojy_: how do you get 1, what happens for that 1 to reach you
2015-02-19T21:13:17Z cojy_: when evaluating 1 the continuation gets called with 1
2015-02-19T21:13:32Z koz_: Ummm, ok.
2015-02-19T21:14:27Z cojy_: so call/cc gives you the continuation
2015-02-19T21:14:49Z cojy_: when you call it, it returns the value
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2015-02-19T21:15:21Z cojy_: and then it continues the rest of the progrM in the same way
2015-02-19T21:15:44Z cojy_: if you call it multiple times, it continues the whole program multiple times
2015-02-19T21:15:57Z cojy_: effectively forking it
2015-02-19T21:15:58Z koz_: So call/cc returns a closure?
2015-02-19T21:16:15Z cojy_: a closure that represents the entire rest of the program
2015-02-19T21:16:27Z cojy_: it is very similar to forking a process
2015-02-19T21:16:28Z koz_: OK. And as I understand it, the closure takes one argument.
2015-02-19T21:16:38Z koz_: And that's the 'next thing it was meant to see'?
2015-02-19T21:16:50Z cojy_: yea which is the return value of the current expression
2015-02-19T21:17:00Z koz_: OK, let me see if I understand you correctly.
2015-02-19T21:17:04Z koz_: Suppose I have (+ 2 3).
2015-02-19T21:17:11Z cojy_: you can also decide to not call it, and not return
2015-02-19T21:17:14Z koz_: And I call/cc on the whole thing.
2015-02-19T21:17:31Z cojy_: call/cc the whole thing?
2015-02-19T21:17:59Z koz_: The current program state essentially doesn't have anything yet.
2015-02-19T21:18:09Z koz_: Because it hasn't started evaluating any part of (+ 2 3).
2015-02-19T21:18:10Z koz_: Right?
2015-02-19T21:19:55Z cojy_: koz_: think of it like this, if (+ 2 3) is your whole program
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2015-02-19T21:20:37Z cojy_: then it looks like ((lambda (a) ((lambda (b) (+ a b)) 2) 1)
2015-02-19T21:20:53Z cojy_: thats not quite fully cpsd but
2015-02-19T21:21:16Z cojy_: basically what call/cc does is give you one of those lambdas
2015-02-19T21:21:35Z cojy_: so you can call it as many times as you want, instead of just like once there with the given value
2015-02-19T21:21:57Z koz_: OH!
2015-02-19T21:22:13Z koz_: So basically it says 'please turn my program into lambda calculus'.
2015-02-19T21:22:32Z cojy_: (+ 1 (call/cc (lambda (k) (k 1)))) => 2; (+ 1 (call/cc (lambda (k) (+ (k 1) (k 1))))) => 4
2015-02-19T21:22:46Z cojy_: not quite
2015-02-19T21:22:51Z cojy_: it already is in a form like that
2015-02-19T21:22:58Z cojy_: its actually closer to machine language
2015-02-19T21:23:07Z cojy_: you never "return" a value
2015-02-19T21:23:10Z cojy_: you just call the continuation with it
2015-02-19T21:23:55Z koz_: So, in my example, if I call the continuation with, say, 10, I get back (lambda (b) (+ 2 b))?
2015-02-19T21:24:08Z koz_: But then what's the purpose of the single argument that the closure takes?
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2015-02-19T21:24:26Z cojy_: the closure _is_ the continuation
2015-02-19T21:24:44Z cojy_: that's the closure k in  (call/cc (lambda (k) ....))
2015-02-19T21:24:52Z koz_: AH.
2015-02-19T21:25:01Z koz_: OK, *now* I get it.
2015-02-19T21:25:42Z koz_: I think.
2015-02-19T21:25:48Z cojy_: basically if you only call your continuation instead of "returning", it lets you get a hold of any part, and fork the computation from there
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2015-02-19T21:25:57Z cojy_: if you are familiar with fork in a threaded system
2015-02-19T21:26:06Z koz_: Yeah, sorta.
2015-02-19T21:27:00Z koz_: Thanks - this definitely helps, but I think I'll need to look at TSPL's section on call/cc again.
2015-02-19T21:27:10Z koz_: But your explanation definitely clears things up for me.
2015-02-19T21:27:15Z cojy_: if you have knowledge of monads that helps oto
2015-02-19T21:28:41Z koz_: cojy_: Not really.... I'm only fairly noob at functional programming concepts.
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2015-02-19T21:30:20Z cojy_: imagine instead of the 2 i have call/cc ((lambda (a) ((lambda (b) (halt (+ a b))) 2) 1) and ((lambda (a) ((lambda (b) (halt (+ a b))) (call/cc (lambda (k) (k 2)))) 1)
2015-02-19T21:30:26Z cojy_: those are equivalent
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2015-02-19T21:31:19Z koz_: As I said, I'll re-read the relevant section of TSPL and see if it makes more sense to me now.
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2015-02-19T21:31:31Z koz_: That's the *one* biggest thing about Scheme I never got.
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2015-02-19T21:37:02Z cojy_: anyway just to finish the point if (+ 1 2) == ((lambda (a) ((lambda (b) (halt (+ a b))) 2) 1) then (+ 1 (call/cc fn)) => ((lambda (a) (fn (lambda (b) (halt (+ a b))))) 1)
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2015-02-19T21:47:56Z ski think it's nicer to think of the procedure obtained as *containing* the continuation
2015-02-19T21:48:54Z vanila: rather than being the continuation? what is the difference?
2015-02-19T21:49:35Z ski: (⌜¬ τ⌝ being different from ⌜∀ ω. (τ → ω)⌝ and all that ..)
2015-02-19T21:50:06Z vanila: I don't know how that relates
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2015-02-19T21:50:45Z ski: in a sense, continuations can be thought of as being more primitive than functions
2015-02-19T21:51:51Z vanila: ah then reifying a continuation means wrapping it in a procedure, okay
2015-02-19T21:52:04Z ski: to call a function, you need to provide (a) an argument (or several); (b) a control point where the result will be received and where computation can resume after the call
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2015-02-19T21:52:33Z ski: to invoke a continuation, you just need an argument (or several)
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2015-02-19T21:54:17Z ski: conceptually, `call/cc' wraps the captured continuation in a function that, when it receives an argument (or several) and a return continuation, discards the return continuation, and instead invokes the captured continuation with the argument(s)
2015-02-19T21:55:27Z ski: if you want to, you can think of a function as being a continuation that accepts a tuple containing : the argument(s) and the return continuation (accepting a tuple containing the result(s))
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2015-02-19T21:56:57Z ski: (this is essentially saying that ⌜τ₀ → τ₁⌝ is logically equivalent to ⌜¬ (τ₀ × ¬ τ₁)⌝, in terms of types)
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2015-02-19T22:00:07Z vanila: that's so cool!
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2015-02-19T22:05:13Z vanila: how would you write a proof of ¬ (τ₀ × ¬ τ₁) ?
2015-02-19T22:05:22Z vanila: for the other one you can use lambda..
2015-02-19T22:05:57Z vanila: oh for this maybe it woul be something like  \/(a,k). k (f a)  where \/ is a binder that inhabits continuations
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2015-02-19T22:10:55Z vanila: oh thats wrong
2015-02-19T22:11:18Z vanila: \/(a,k). k (f a, halt)
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2015-02-19T22:34:28Z ijp: ski: it's been a while, how's life treating you?
2015-02-19T22:35:29Z ski is currently taking a topology course
2015-02-19T22:36:41Z ijp: cue terrible joke about donuts and mugs
2015-02-19T22:37:15Z ski: vanila : you need a syntax for invoking continuations. obviously such an invocation isn't an expression. you might call it a "jump". the body of your continuation-binder (sometimes written with a gamma) would be a jump
2015-02-19T22:37:23Z ski: `halt' would not be involved in here
2015-02-19T22:37:59Z ski: (i actually because interested in topology because of computing science ..)
2015-02-19T22:38:26Z ijp: like the "seemingly impossible programs" thing?
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2015-02-19T22:38:51Z ski: Martín H. Escardó's work mainly, yes
2015-02-19T22:38:55Z ski: and Paul Taylor
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2015-02-19T22:45:05Z ski: e.g. "Selection Functions, Bar Recursion, and Backward Induction" by Martín H. Escardó,Paulo Oliva in 2009-11-11 at <http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/selection-escardo-oliva.pdf> is interesting
2015-02-19T22:46:31Z ski: (related to to game theory, optimal strategies, &c.)
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2015-02-19T22:54:19Z pjb: "How is life threatening you?"? >:o{
2015-02-19T22:54:49Z ski: .. "Searchable Sets, Dubuc-Penon Compactness, Omniscience Principles, and the Drinker Paradox" by ibid in 2010 at <http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/dp.pdf> and "The universe is indiscrete" by Martín Escardó,Thomas Streicher in 2013-11-16 at <http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/universe-indiscrete.pdf> are more topological
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2015-02-19T22:59:14Z ski: ("It is a theorem in type theory that the universe is sequentially indiscrete, in the sense that any sequence of types converges to any desired type, up to equivalence. As a corollary we derive /Rice's Theorem for the universe/: it cannot have any non-trivial decidable property, unless WLPO, the weak limited principle of omniscience, holds.")
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