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2015-02-18T08:55:51Z taylanub: RRRS would be the third paper, AI Memo 848
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2015-02-18T08:56:29Z taylanub has R0 through 7RS on his PC :P
2015-02-18T08:56:56Z z0d: with R9Rs we're going to say goodbye to one-digit Rs
2015-02-18T08:57:28Z z0d: unless we use base-16
2015-02-18T09:01:15Z vanila: there probably wont be another scheme spec
2015-02-18T09:01:28Z vanila: dont you think?
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2015-02-18T09:12:22Z taylanub: vanila: why would you say that?
2015-02-18T09:12:34Z vanila: a couple reasons
2015-02-18T09:12:59Z vanila: mostly it seems like scheme is very unpopular these days, so there wont be a lot of interest in it
2015-02-18T09:13:31Z vanila: and secondly because now that we finally have a way to actually organize libraries of code, we can separate 'libraries' away from the actual language definition -- and the positive point of that is we wont have to keep changing the language again and again
2015-02-18T09:14:44Z vanila: I don't think that having to keep revising the spec again and again, updating code so that it works in the new spec.. updating allt he implementations etc..
2015-02-18T09:14:49Z vanila: I don't think that's good
2015-02-18T09:14:54Z taylanub: has Scheme ever been popular outside academia? :)  I think it can change, with things like GNU Guix and Racket...
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2015-02-18T09:15:15Z vanila: Well I could be wrong but my feeling is that scheme used to be much more popular compared to now
2015-02-18T09:15:47Z taylanub: well, Racket is still heavily focused on academia if I'm not mistaken...  perhaps it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that GNU Guix is currently the largest effort at bringing large-scale credibility to Scheme?
2015-02-18T09:16:39Z taylanub: vanila: standards usually keep backwards compatibility.  it's why e.g. call/cc won't be removed.
2015-02-18T09:18:38Z taylanub: but the incompatibilities of R6RS to 5RS and SRFIs, as well as the incompatibility of R7 to 6RS, are quite worrisome
2015-02-18T09:19:36Z taylanub: and there's also some R7RS to SRFI incompatibilities :\
2015-02-18T09:19:39Z vanila: i think we can ignore R6RS
2015-02-18T09:20:05Z taylanub: I don't think so, when large implementations like Racket and Guile are influenced by it
2015-02-18T09:20:09Z cojy_: incompatibilities are fine if the implementations adopt them
2015-02-18T09:20:15Z vanila: I suppose what it comes down to is implementations: If all the compilers are doing "X" and the spec doesn't cover that, a revision might need to include it
2015-02-18T09:20:22Z vanila: yeah like cojy_ says
2015-02-18T09:20:34Z cojy_: there are some things that do damage to hold on to
2015-02-18T09:20:59Z cojy_: mutation outside of reference cells as an example (which was cited in RRS)
2015-02-18T09:21:21Z cojy_: scheme would gain a lot from ditching that and call/cc
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2015-02-18T09:22:26Z vanila: i dont think so
2015-02-18T09:22:44Z vanila: it's just the flat closure model that makes set! seem like a problem, isnt' it?
2015-02-18T09:23:12Z vanila: you don't need mutation analysis if you used nested closures
2015-02-18T09:23:18Z vanila: or are there objections other than implementation?
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2015-02-18T09:24:55Z cojy_: there are reasons other than that for needing mutation analysis like threads, but i dont think thats the issue
2015-02-18T09:27:05Z cojy_: also if you are trying to stack allocate closures it's an issue
2015-02-18T09:27:37Z cojy_: i just think you don't really gain anything from it over having explicit cells, which are much simpler in implementation and use
2015-02-18T09:32:36Z cojy_: an example of how they are more intuitive is that you can pass them around, but you can't pass around the "hidden" cell that a mutable binding has
2015-02-18T09:33:11Z vanila: that makes sense
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2015-02-18T09:33:27Z vanila: im not convinced though :P
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2015-02-18T09:46:15Z taylanub: I wonder what exactly would revitalize RnRS.  I've heard different types of objections...
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2015-02-18T09:46:26Z vanila: what do you mean exactly?
2015-02-18T09:46:29Z vanila: to revitalize it?
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2015-02-18T09:46:54Z taylanub: implementors don't take them serious and don't want to contribute much to the processes
2015-02-18T09:47:01Z vanila: ohh
2015-02-18T09:47:16Z vanila: hmm yeah thats a good question
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2015-02-18T09:47:50Z vanila: maybe it's because the previous specs weren't as good as required
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2015-02-18T10:19:11Z vanila: taylanub, is Guix a distro?
2015-02-18T10:19:25Z vanila: im a bit lost just from reading the page
2015-02-18T10:19:39Z vanila: and how does it relate to nix?
2015-02-18T10:19:41Z zacts: vanila: guix is a distro and package manager based on nix
2015-02-18T10:19:44Z vanila: nixos
2015-02-18T10:19:48Z vanila: ooh
2015-02-18T10:19:57Z zacts: it wraps guile around nix somehow
2015-02-18T10:20:02Z zacts: I'm still learning about it too
2015-02-18T10:20:07Z taylanub: vanila: Guix is a Nix- and Guile-based package manager and recipe repository (in the same source tree, so the recipe language needn't be fixed in place).  the GNU distribution based on Guix is now called GuixSD
2015-02-18T10:20:13Z taylanub: Guix System Distribution
2015-02-18T10:20:19Z vanila: this is very interesting!
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2015-02-18T10:21:16Z vanila: are people using this as their main OS?
2015-02-18T10:21:55Z zacts: vanila: the guix developers use it as their main OS
2015-02-18T10:21:56Z taylanub: it's version 0.8.1 with central features being works in progress, but you can do a USB installation and it kinda works
2015-02-18T10:22:11Z zacts: I'm considering using guix as my Server OS
2015-02-18T10:22:15Z zacts: for my chat server
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2015-02-18T10:22:26Z vanila: can I make my own distro based on it?
2015-02-18T10:22:42Z vanila: i should probably use ubuntu for this
2015-02-18T10:22:50Z vanila: but i want to somehow package a bunch of software preinstalled on an iso
2015-02-18T10:22:55Z taylanub: I have it installed on top of Debian and am gradually replacing all my Debian packages with those from Guix.  will switch to GuixSD probably when I get to buy a Gluglug X200 and ensure that all packages I can't live without are packaged for Guix
2015-02-18T10:23:10Z vanila: that's so cool taylanub!
2015-02-18T10:23:51Z taylanub: note that it's a very isolated environment (purely functional and all) so it won't perfectly cooperate with the host system.  it will use its own version of everything, for dependencies and such.
2015-02-18T10:24:50Z vanila: so i was just wondering why would one use this rather than nix?
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2015-02-18T10:25:09Z taylanub: programs installed as Guix packages will frequently not even be able to see libraries on the host system; the purely-functional aspect of Nix/Guix means that e.g. a C program is constrained so hard (via its "rpath" or so in the ELF file) that it can only load *very* specific .so files (namely, ones which are in turn from Nix/Guix packages)
2015-02-18T10:25:49Z vanila: interesting!
2015-02-18T10:26:10Z taylanub: vanila: 1) Scheme APIs instead of a weird DSL+Perl+Bash+???, 2) GuixSD will use GNU dmd, Guile-based init system, instead of SystemD, 3) it's a GNU project, if you're into pure-free software
2015-02-18T10:27:11Z taylanub: it just has quite a different flavor I think, just based on the same central concept of purely functional package management (and reusing the core codebase of Nix; the main Guix developer is also still a Nix developer)
2015-02-18T10:27:32Z taylanub: no fork drama or anything :)
2015-02-18T10:27:41Z vanila: oh my god
2015-02-18T10:27:43Z vanila: this is so great
2015-02-18T10:28:01Z vanila: yeah I chcked out some of the debian forks but they're run by (4chan) assholes
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2015-02-18T10:38:40Z kephra: moin taylanub & vanila
2015-02-18T10:38:43Z taylanub: Tox was halfway decent though, wasn't it?  but yeah, since 4chan is full of excited youngsters who enjoy being offensive, they would probably hop right on to the personal hate campaign against Poettering :(
2015-02-18T10:40:03Z vanila: hey kephra :)
2015-02-18T10:40:17Z kephra: good progress yesterday
2015-02-18T10:40:17Z taylanub: kephra: hi
2015-02-18T10:40:26Z kephra: married my scheme with the GUI
2015-02-18T10:40:54Z vanila: tox is also terrible :P didnt mean to get into this but there's a lot of corruption in the dev team, basically completely untrustworthy people
2015-02-18T10:41:14Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/books.html <- first example, of how to extend my scheme
2015-02-18T10:42:26Z taylanub: vanila: heh, OK, that's a shame.  never looked much into it, just had the impression it was a promising project.
2015-02-18T10:43:04Z vanila: kephra, that's really nice!
2015-02-18T10:43:12Z vanila: I just looked at view source and its all generated by scheme
2015-02-18T10:43:56Z kephra: yes, scheme is generating the list to pass to the GUI framework
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2015-02-18T14:33:53Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/unloop.html <- *w00t* I have let and let* up and running
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2015-02-18T14:34:35Z kephra: let* is basically a macro calling let recursively for each binding
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2015-02-18T14:35:43Z LeoNerd: let* can be thought of (and possibly implemented as) a sequence of nested one-element lets
2015-02-18T14:36:48Z kephra: thats my implementation currently, nested let
2015-02-18T14:37:12Z kephra: lets look at letrec next
2015-02-18T14:37:54Z LeoNerd: letrec and letrec* are more fun.
2015-02-18T14:38:18Z kephra: ;-)
2015-02-18T14:38:24Z LeoNerd: R5 forgets to define a letrec* but it sortof implies that the toplevel of a program itself, and the contents of any (begin) block, are -effectively- a letrec*
2015-02-18T14:39:11Z kephra: *aehm* w-hat?
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2015-02-18T14:40:41Z taylanub: LeoNerd: 'begin' contents don't bind variables
2015-02-18T14:41:26Z LeoNerd: I thought they can start with some definitions of new things..?
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2015-02-18T14:48:07Z taylanub: LeoNerd: yes, but that was defined in terms of 'letrec' and not the nonexisting 'letrec*'
2015-02-18T14:48:25Z taylanub: so you could not do (begin (define x 0) (define y (+ x 1)) y) and get 1
2015-02-18T14:48:39Z taylanub double-checks R5RS to make sure...
2015-02-18T14:48:54Z LeoNerd: Hrmm... but I thought you _are_ allowed to do that and rely on it?
2015-02-18T14:49:32Z taylanub: probably starting with R6RS
2015-02-18T14:49:53Z LeoNerd: I haven't looked at R6
2015-02-18T14:49:56Z taylanub: note that it's not the same as (begin (define x 0) (define y (lambda () (+ x 1))) (y)) which is sure to work
2015-02-18T14:50:05Z LeoNerd: Sure
2015-02-18T14:52:05Z taylanub: yes, section 5.2.2 of R5RS says that internal definitions are entirely equivalent to using 'letrec', which means (define x 0) (define y (+ x 1)) will fail
2015-02-18T14:52:13Z LeoNerd: Ah... hrm...
2015-02-18T14:52:22Z taylanub: R7RS says the same except using letrec* not letrec
2015-02-18T14:52:28Z LeoNerd: Ah maybe that's what I'm remembering
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2015-02-18T14:54:48Z taylanub: yeah seems letrec*, and defining internal definitions in terms of letrec*, was first introduced with R6
2015-02-18T14:55:34Z LeoNerd: I know 'letrec*' as a specifically named symbol was only introduced at R6/7, but I thought I remembered that the main program and inner defines are sortof implied to behave that way
2015-02-18T14:55:38Z LeoNerd: But maybe I misremembered it
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2015-02-18T15:12:40Z taylanub: LeoNerd: I think top-level forms already behaved like letrec*, except for non-definition ones allowed in-between...
2015-02-18T15:13:01Z LeoNerd: Yes.. toplevels
2015-02-18T15:13:07Z LeoNerd: Oh.. OK so maybe the actual toplevel is different from inner defines
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2015-02-18T15:14:23Z kephra: *w00t* http://kephra.de/o3proto/unloop.html <- letrec works ... big debug output, even for a the recursive even?/odd? example with only 8
2015-02-18T15:15:18Z kephra: I'll omit letrec* - those who need this can do a macro
2015-02-18T15:15:26Z kephra: its not part of r4rs, iirc
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2015-02-18T15:20:13Z taylanub: kephra: letrec* cannot be implemented as a macro
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2015-02-18T15:20:54Z kephra: well, "macro" in my engine is special form
2015-02-18T15:20:54Z taylanub: out of let, let*, letrec, and letrec*, let can be implemented as a macro in terms of lambda, and let* can be implemented as a macro in terms of let (or lambda).  letrec and letrec* need internal support.
2015-02-18T15:21:03Z kephra: not a hygenic scheme macro
2015-02-18T15:21:08Z taylanub: ok
2015-02-18T15:21:37Z taylanub: kephra: by the way is this some hobby/educational project, or do you have a problem to solve / target audience?
2015-02-18T15:21:52Z kephra: big problem: SAP for the poor
2015-02-18T15:22:50Z kephra: so the scheme itself will be later hidden under a reader macro *blush* to provide infix notation
2015-02-18T15:24:31Z kephra: btw, the even?/odd? example needs only 7 seconds for 8888 without debug display
2015-02-18T15:24:51Z kephra: thats fast enough for the code it will later run
2015-02-18T15:25:25Z taylanub: that sounds *VERY* slow, but if you think it'll be fast enough, then ok...
2015-02-18T15:26:06Z kephra: the most complicated calculation done by this engine is likely: sum(amount*price)
2015-02-18T15:26:56Z kephra: letrec is an expensive form, that likely wont be used in any code anyways
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2015-02-18T15:28:49Z taylanub: letrec is pretty ubiquitous if you count in internal definitions
2015-02-18T15:29:18Z kephra: taylanub, http://kephra.de/o3proto/books.html <- this is a mockup of how my scheme will later look to the user
2015-02-18T15:30:29Z kephra: well, its already a prototype, so the scheme is really executed to call primitive forms that are defined in a 2nd library
2015-02-18T15:30:52Z kephra: its mainly a proof, that I could link the UI and the interpreter
2015-02-18T15:33:42Z taylanub: for reference, even?/odd? defined via top-level bindings takes ~0.001 seconds to run on 8888 on Guile.  with letrec*, it oddly takes ~0.01 (would have expected shorter because top-level bindings tend to be less optimizable)
2015-02-18T15:34:22Z kephra: sure, but guile is not written in javascript
2015-02-18T15:35:01Z taylanub: oh, I think there's compilation time involved, and the letrec* is compiled in one piece whereas when I make top-level defines they're compiled separately and then only the compilation time of the procedure-call "(even? 8888)" is included in my timing
2015-02-18T15:35:40Z taylanub: kephra: I thought JS was very fast these days... :P
2015-02-18T15:36:01Z kephra: only if you write jasm
2015-02-18T15:38:13Z kephra: if you use higher level code, js drops a lot - I guess environment creation (var ne = Object.create(this.e);) take a lot of time. JS was not designed for a prototype chain that is at least 8888 levels deep ;-)
2015-02-18T15:38:40Z taylanub: O_o  why is there a prototype chain that long?
2015-02-18T15:39:13Z ecraven: shouldn't this be all tail calls?
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2015-02-18T15:43:47Z rrrr: hi, i am a new schemer
2015-02-18T15:44:24Z taylanub: rrrr: *bark* *bark*
2015-02-18T15:44:45Z taylanub: I mean, welcome :)
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2015-02-18T22:21:22Z kephra: I came up with an acronym for my AJAX replacement: SSEXI (syncronous s-expression injection)
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2015-02-18T23:55:10Z kephra: lets explain what I mean with SSEXI vs AJAX
2015-02-18T23:59:09Z kephra: ajax means, that my running code has to return, if I want something from the server, and the server reply will trigger the execution of a lambda/closure to continue work
2015-02-18T23:59:46Z kephra: SSEXI means that I can code: (list 1 2 (something-from-the-database) 3 4)