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2015-02-08T18:31:34Z haziz: How do I define a function that accepts a variable number of parameters? Using (lambda (x ...)) I keep getting error messages. I am using guile/geiser/emacs as my REPL.
2015-02-08T18:32:01Z pjb: (lambda arguments …) or (lambda (mandatory . rest-arguments)  …)
2015-02-08T18:32:01Z haziz: e.g.:  (define my_multiplication
2015-02-08T18:32:21Z sethalves: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12658406/scheme-how-do-i-handle-an-unspecified-number-of-parameters
2015-02-08T18:32:22Z vraid: rudybot: (define mult (lambda nums (apply * nums)))
2015-02-08T18:32:32Z vraid: oh, no rudybot?
2015-02-08T18:32:34Z haziz:         (lambda (x ...)
2015-02-08T18:32:35Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/qajh6og
2015-02-08T18:32:35Z rudybot: vraid: Done.
2015-02-08T18:32:47Z vraid: rudybot: (mult 1 2 3)
2015-02-08T18:32:48Z rudybot: vraid: ; Value: 6
2015-02-08T18:33:20Z haziz: (* x ...) produces errors
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2015-02-08T18:34:29Z vraid: haziz: the variable arguments will be a list
2015-02-08T18:40:12Z haziz: Thanks. I am still not sure I grokked it though. Reading through "Fixnum" right now, I don't get what he is saying (unusual, he is usually very clear). I find Dybvig to be very cryptic. Dybvig is certainly very cryptic when it comes to his definition of lambda etc.
2015-02-08T18:40:50Z pjb: haziz: (define (mult arg . other-args) (apply * arg other-args))
2015-02-08T18:41:01Z pjb: But (mult) will be an error.
2015-02-08T18:41:48Z pjb: (define (mult1 . args) (apply * args))
2015-02-08T18:42:07Z pjb: (mult1) --> 1, (mult1 2) --> 2, (mult1 2 3) --> 6
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2015-02-08T20:11:34Z haziz: Any Scheme tutorial videos other than the SICP ones or Brian Harvey's SICP course version from UC Berkeley? Not counting the multitude of hello world ones on youtube.
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2015-02-08T20:12:10Z z0d: try searching on Youtube
2015-02-08T20:12:21Z z0d: any topics you are specifically interested in?
2015-02-08T20:12:36Z haziz: @zOd Did that already
2015-02-08T20:13:04Z haziz: Programming in Scheme up to an intermediate level
2015-02-08T20:13:50Z cdtaylor: haziz:  Why wouldn't you want to do SICP?
2015-02-08T20:14:29Z cdtaylor: haziz:  There's HtDP.
2015-02-08T20:14:53Z haziz: I tried. I find their style too dense. Brian Harvey's version of the course from UC Berkeley is a bit more approachable.
2015-02-08T20:14:58Z cdtaylor: haziz:  But I feel like at the intermediate level, for any language, there's really not many any decent tutorials.
2015-02-08T20:15:16Z pjb: How to Design Programs -- An Introduction to Computing and Programming  http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/
2015-02-08T20:15:20Z cdtaylor: haziz:  We kinda get stuck with stack exchange and documentation.
2015-02-08T20:15:43Z cdtaylor: haziz:  I'm working through SICP now. It's very rewarding. I'd suggest you at least try to do it.
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2015-02-08T20:16:59Z haziz: Any videos? I will be reading from a book as well.
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2015-02-08T20:21:04Z cdtaylor: None that I know of.
2015-02-08T20:21:58Z cdtaylor: But actually, that prompts me a question of my own. HtDP is known to be easier than SICP and more practical. Would it be any good to work on both books simultaneously, working on HtDP faster for more practical knowledge, and a slower pace (one or two exercises a day) for SICP?
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2015-02-08T20:29:06Z wasamasa: would be too much work
2015-02-08T20:29:24Z cdtaylor: You really think so? I don't think SICP is too much work. I'm going about one section a day, and it leaves me just begging for more.
2015-02-08T20:30:28Z Cheery: My 'lisp' just got a CFG definition
2015-02-08T20:31:33Z Cheery: https://github.com/cheery/textended-edit/commit/6e73b0827e64fd95f21c9c312ea2f9a51361f1d5
2015-02-08T20:31:39Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/oanrs9t
2015-02-08T20:31:51Z Cheery: stuff I did.. I think it'd be possible in a "traditional" lisp
2015-02-08T20:33:19Z Cheery: (rule def <stmt> (def symbol <argument>* <stmt>*))
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2015-02-08T20:33:49Z Cheery: then you'd go: (def thing (arguments) ((a) (b)))
2015-02-08T20:34:18Z Cheery: the schema would bind that into a function that constructs the function declaration
2015-02-08T20:36:01Z wasamasa: cdtaylor: are you beyond the first chapter even?
2015-02-08T20:36:17Z cdtaylor: wasamasa:  Almost.... x]
2015-02-08T20:36:25Z cdtaylor: wasamasa:  Does it get a lot harder?
2015-02-08T20:36:37Z wasamasa: cdtaylor: it gets more abstract the further you progress
2015-02-08T20:36:40Z cdtaylor: wasamasa:  I'm enjoying the difficulty so far.
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2015-02-08T20:37:13Z wasamasa: well, chapter 1 is just maths
2015-02-08T20:37:15Z cdtaylor: wasamasa:  But if it builds upon itself fairly linearly, I don't think I'll have any problem, except maybe splitting up a section over multiple days for a problem I have to particularly think about.
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2015-02-08T20:37:45Z cdtaylor: How well does Vi(m) support Scheme? Syntax highlighting, etc?
2015-02-08T20:38:00Z cdtaylor: I don't want to learn emacs... I used to know it and relearning is a PITA.
2015-02-08T20:38:10Z cdtaylor: And textmate sucks for Scheme.
2015-02-08T20:38:38Z wasamasa: you won't need more than one window where you edit scheme and another one where you evaluate it
2015-02-08T20:39:00Z cdtaylor: So basically what I'm doing right now. But it's not going to fuck me up with stupid indenting rules, etc?
2015-02-08T20:39:13Z wasamasa: everything is reimplementing emacs indentation rules anyways
2015-02-08T20:39:25Z cdtaylor: Not textmate!
2015-02-08T20:39:59Z vanila: I would recommend to use emacs since it has paredit - unless there is something equivalent in vim
2015-02-08T20:40:11Z wasamasa: there is supposedly
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2015-02-08T20:43:43Z wasamasa: I'm not aware of anything geiser-like for vim yet, but it shouldn't matter, really
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2015-02-08T20:44:26Z wasamasa: you're writing scheme so you'll have docs of the stuff you're hacking on open, be it in a browser or as source in a buffer of your editor
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2015-02-08T20:51:20Z haziz: Some of the C and Posix function definitions are documented using the Linux/Unix man pages. e.g. I can type in man 3 sprintf and get a description of the sprintf function. Anything similar for Scheme? Allegro CL has a web help feature where you can hover over a function and press F1 and get a common lisp definition. Anything similar within Scheme?
2015-02-08T20:54:50Z taylanub: haziz: depends on your Scheme implementation.  e.g. Guile has Info pages.  the standards have PDFs and R5RS has an HTML version: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/
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2015-02-08T20:56:40Z haziz: Are the guile info pages accessible within an Emacs/Geiser/Guile REPL?
2015-02-08T21:04:40Z wasamasa: M-x info
2015-02-08T21:05:55Z ASau: Scheme needs DESCRIBE and DOCUMENTATION.
2015-02-08T21:06:18Z wasamasa: I bet racket has these
2015-02-08T21:07:11Z wasamasa: or rather, `drracket`
2015-02-08T21:07:53Z ijp: haziz: you can usually use ,d
2015-02-08T21:08:10Z ijp: but those are docstrings, not links to the info pages
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2015-02-08T21:09:55Z ASau: In CLISP "(describe 'car)" gives you HyperSpec URL.
2015-02-08T21:10:28Z ijp: C-c C-d RET for modules gives you a list of bindings with a link to the man page
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2015-02-08T21:11:14Z ijp: apparently C-c C-d TAB is info lookup, but I never use it
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2015-02-08T21:12:17Z haziz: M-x info leads to the generic info pages. It does include an info page(s) for Geiser. I am not sure there is any guile or scheme specific stuff, or am I missing something?
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2015-02-08T21:21:52Z taylanub: haziz: if you use Guile via M-x run-guile RET (i.e. Geiser), you can use C-c C-d TAB to look up documentation
2015-02-08T21:22:07Z ijp: *cough*
2015-02-08T21:24:33Z haziz: @taylanub Thank! C-c C-d TAB does seem to lead to some Scheme definitions.
2015-02-08T21:24:46Z ijp: wth man
2015-02-08T21:33:30Z haziz: @ljp Thanks.
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2015-02-08T22:03:06Z cdtaylor: *sigh* I suppose I should start learning emacs again....
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2015-02-08T22:38:54Z haziz: While I strongly prefer Emacs, and not just for Lisp hacking; it is my standard text editor; I would think Vim should have decent Scheme and Lisp support. Sadly market share between Vim and Emacs seems to heavily favor Vim over Emacs nowadays.
2015-02-08T22:42:03Z pjb: You're not counting right.
2015-02-08T22:42:42Z pjb: If you count #emacs-users/#lisp-programmers  vs. #vim-users/#non-lisp-programmers, then you'll see that emacs is the big winner.
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2015-02-08T22:44:41Z haziz: However if you count all users of text editors, Vim has sadly won the editor wars. Of course that is counting only Unix and Linux CLI geeks. Actually notepad won the editor wars!
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2015-02-08T22:45:10Z cdtaylor: But the scheme/lisp community strongly leans towards Emacs, so, I think I should just learn it eventually.
2015-02-08T22:45:14Z pjb: haziz: who care?
2015-02-08T22:45:20Z pjb: haziz: again, you're not counting right.
2015-02-08T22:45:45Z ASau: haziz: who cares of people who either don't program or are inefficient in their programming?
2015-02-08T22:46:00Z pjb: haziz: on a planet far far away, there are two editors very similar to emacs and to vim, and there, there are 2 billion emacs users vs. 100  million vim users.
2015-02-08T22:46:04Z ASau: Most people using vim are sysadmins at most.
2015-02-08T22:46:43Z ASau: Besides, you don't count all those who don't care of either editors.
2015-02-08T22:47:04Z pjb: yes, all the other planets of the galaxy where they use something like notepad.
2015-02-08T22:47:11Z ASau: Believe me, Java programmers would rather laugh at both.
2015-02-08T22:47:20Z haziz: @cdtaylor As an Emacs fan, I would welcome your attempt to relearn Emacs. I was just trying to be helpful. Sorry, I personally avoid vi/Vim like the plague. About the only bit of vi I can do is Esc :q
2015-02-08T22:47:32Z cdtaylor: I think vim is easier, but I do prefer emacs. It's just a PITA to learn all over again, since it's been like 5 years.
2015-02-08T22:47:37Z ASau: E.g. Eclipse supports a lot more than Emacs, unless you put really a lot of effort in it.
2015-02-08T22:48:21Z cdtaylor: What bothers me are all the people who are like "Why learn vim/emacs!? Just get Dr Racket! You can do all your code in there it's great!"
2015-02-08T22:48:43Z taylanub: ASau: does Eclipse support keyboard macros?
2015-02-08T22:48:46Z wasamasa: cdtaylor: what's wrong with that?
2015-02-08T22:48:48Z pjb: cdtaylor: those are babies, who have never had to change programming languages.
2015-02-08T22:48:59Z ASau: taylanub: I'm sure it does.
2015-02-08T22:49:12Z pjb: When you've changed IDE every couple of years, only then, when you're fed up, you can understand the point of emacs.
2015-02-08T22:49:14Z taylanub: ASau: does it have something analogous to Dired?
2015-02-08T22:49:27Z wasamasa: taylanub: it has project drawers!
2015-02-08T22:49:34Z ASau: No idea, most probably it has something, though most people don't use it.
2015-02-08T22:49:49Z cdtaylor: wasamasa:  Because having to leave the keyboard is so tedious.
2015-02-08T22:50:11Z ASau: What is really useful is that Eclipse can analyse your (Java or C++) program on the fly and show you procedure signatures.
2015-02-08T22:50:15Z taylanub: ASau: does it have something like Geiser, and Paredit?
2015-02-08T22:50:39Z taylanub: ASau: you can be sure both Emacs and Vim can do that
2015-02-08T22:50:44Z wasamasa: cdtaylor: other people find it tedious to work up a 2000 line emacs config
2015-02-08T22:50:47Z ijp: haziz: there were no winners in the editor war, only losers
2015-02-08T22:51:06Z wasamasa: cdtaylor: so, I don't really see a problem with them prefering such an environment
2015-02-08T22:51:29Z ijp: I should think that this conversation is proof enough of that
2015-02-08T22:52:08Z pjb: there are no lines in emacs config.  There are symbolic expressions.
2015-02-08T22:52:10Z cdtaylor: Hey, I'm just stating my preferences!
2015-02-08T22:53:02Z taylanub: ASau: what I'm saying is I can throw stuff at you all night :D  I doubt Eclipse is nearly as mature and feature-packed as Emacs
2015-02-08T22:53:02Z haziz: Interesting that this chat room heats up once we debate editors! I wonder why?
2015-02-08T22:53:19Z pjb: Eclipse is dead anyways. Nowadays it's Android Studio.
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2015-02-08T22:54:09Z ASau: taylanub: Eclipse has really useful features Emacs lacks totally.
2015-02-08T22:54:22Z taylanub: ASau: name them?
2015-02-08T22:54:27Z ASau: See above.
2015-02-08T22:54:32Z taylanub: where?
2015-02-08T22:54:46Z wasamasa: inb4 taylanub refers to CEDET
2015-02-08T22:54:47Z ASau: On the contrary, Dired is useful only in the absense of file managers.
2015-02-08T22:55:06Z ijp: dired is a file manager
2015-02-08T22:55:27Z ijp: but are all of you so stupid as to think you are going to change the other persons mind?
2015-02-08T22:55:32Z taylanub: I'm sure J. Random File Manager supports all the features Dired does
2015-02-08T22:56:22Z taylanub: ijp: I have a little hope in changing their mentality from "lol my favorite software is the best" to something less frustrating to onlookers
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2015-02-08T22:57:54Z offby1 double-checks to see if this is #emcas
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2015-02-08T23:00:55Z ASau: ijp: if you want to be pedantic read "in the absense of other file managers."
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2015-02-08T23:06:27Z offby1: of _course_ we want to be pedantic; it's who we are
2015-02-08T23:07:45Z zacts: offby1: are you still puppeting rudybot? dude, you need to get out more into sunlight.
2015-02-08T23:07:51Z zacts: (kidding)
2015-02-08T23:08:40Z offby1: *shrug*
2015-02-08T23:08:53Z rudybot: I'll let the bot answer that
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2015-02-08T23:22:32Z haziz: Any good source/book/website for "Scheme Macros for Dummies"? Dybvig is exceptionally opaque here. Even Sitaram in "Fixnum" is fairly dense, and seems to be using Racket specific terminology. An "Idiot's Guide to Scheme Macros" would be very welcome here.
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