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2015-01-27T15:03:08Z names: ccl-logbot hellofun` darveter fgudin mlaine racycle hiyosi leppie zadock uris77 alezost badkins twem2 taylanub fridim_ fsckd adu Bahman ivan\ davexunit pjdelport jumblerg turtleman_ c74d b4283 gravicappa agumonkey _5kg rotty vdamewood clog xjgrant civodul cmatei ventonegro redeemed jewel evhan stepnem wingo aretecode mrowez bjz dmiles_afk srenatus bb010g psy_ joneshf-laptop jrslepak Sgeo Vutral tobik thisisausername gabot fadein Riastradh greghendershott
2015-01-27T15:03:08Z names: samth dytrivedi_ pnkfelix zwer pjb shardz hive-mind aftershave pygospa gluegadget cojy_ zeroish kwmiebach superjudge araujo yosafbridge offby1 karswell` rtra salv00 necronian cdidd_ mdln zacts acarrico ggherdov Neet turbofail profil gf3 petercommand Soft ffs diginet Natch REPLeffect_ benaiah emma tstc` net4all_ sethalves averell dualbus fikusz akkad TrueShiftBlue teiresias ohama ByronJohnson eagleflo SirDayBat Cheery add^__ mario-goulart Intensity
2015-01-27T15:03:08Z names: acieroid FracV vukcrni nowhereman maxigas cjh`_ dpk serhart gnomon juanfra eMBee xfz SHODAN haroldwu GGMethos pflanze Kruppe Saeren asumu joast jkraemer mikeyhc yukko_ jyc amoe zbigniew arrdem ski C-Keen girrig z0d Khisanth choas weinholt LeoNerd balkamos mark_weaver tristero emlow aap Riviera antoszka cibs _shit_ Razz copec tessier ozzloy aking_ henrytill Nshag tsuyoshi edw nisstyre sigjuice kilimanjaro cross cky abbe pchrist ELLIOTTCABLE micro^ ft
2015-01-27T15:03:08Z names: defanor finnrobi DerGuteMoritz niklasl2 klutomet1s poucet_ certainty aksatac carc clauswitt Kryo utkarsh Blkt fizzie wasamasa kbtr nitrix rudybot dan64 ecraven vikraman chameco
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2015-01-27T16:05:39Z offby1: how?
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2015-01-27T16:17:09Z zacts: what?
2015-01-27T16:17:21Z zacts: oh wasamasa got there before me
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2015-01-27T16:18:03Z wasamasa: yeah and I suggest we stop, he's gone
2015-01-27T16:18:09Z wasamasa: since almost an hour
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2015-01-27T16:19:47Z z0d: who?
2015-01-27T16:19:55Z z0d: (sorry, couldn't resist)
2015-01-27T16:20:27Z offby1: which?
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2015-01-27T17:34:09Z teurastaja: Hey, i need a procedure which appends an element to a vector if theres an element else creates an empty vector. How do i do that without vector-append?
2015-01-27T17:38:47Z taylanub: teurastaja: if where is an element?
2015-01-27T17:39:45Z teurastaja: The way i know how to do it creates a vector of size 1 i ignore its first element. Then create another vector that holds a single element and vector-append for each new vector, still ignoring the first element
2015-01-27T17:40:00Z teurastaja: Very inefficient
2015-01-27T17:41:00Z teurastaja: Especially as i use it for many recursions
2015-01-27T17:41:26Z teurastaja: Any improvement ideas?
2015-01-27T17:42:39Z taylanub: I don't understand your description of what the procedure is supposed to do :\
2015-01-27T17:42:40Z teurastaja: Creating 3 vectors just for an element while wasting a slot...
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2015-01-27T17:46:04Z teurastaja: Well... If the procedure gets no argument it creates an empty vector (possible?) and if it has an argument it appends it to that vector
2015-01-27T17:47:55Z teurastaja: With vector-append i need to create 3 vectors and waste index 0
2015-01-27T17:48:30Z teurastaja: Is there another way?
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2015-01-27T17:54:34Z teurastaja: sorry was on phone now non computer did anybody answer?
2015-01-27T17:54:41Z teurastaja: *now on
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2015-01-27T17:56:21Z teurastaja: androirc is very unstable
2015-01-27T17:57:02Z teurastaja: so... dynamically resizable vectors?
2015-01-27T17:58:32Z Riastradh: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/xvector.scm
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2015-01-27T18:00:52Z teurastaja: thanks but that code is unfinished
2015-01-27T18:01:22Z teurastaja: its not even alpha stage
2015-01-27T18:02:52Z Riastradh: Well.  I think it works.
2015-01-27T18:03:19Z teurastaja: are you the programmer?
2015-01-27T18:03:28Z Riastradh: Yes.
2015-01-27T18:04:02Z Riastradh: Coulda sworn I wrote some automatic tests for it, but either I didn't or I neglected to upload them to mumble.net.
2015-01-27T18:05:19Z z0d: Riastradh: what's the rationale behind (define (uninitialized)..) ?
2015-01-27T18:05:31Z z0d: why not just return #f ?
2015-01-27T18:05:36Z Riastradh: *shrug*
2015-01-27T18:05:54Z teurastaja: you know that if i include this in my program itll get at least twice bigger?
2015-01-27T18:06:23Z teurastaja: its a library?
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2015-01-27T18:09:04Z Riastradh: You could do a much simpler version with a geometric progression of vector sizes.
2015-01-27T18:09:15Z Riastradh: Typical factor is 2.
2015-01-27T18:09:38Z teurastaja: geometric progression?
2015-01-27T18:10:11Z Riastradh: As you add elements, when you expand the underlying vector, the first one has one slot; next one has two slots; next one has four; next one has eight; &c.
2015-01-27T18:10:24Z teurastaja: you mean big O^2?
2015-01-27T18:10:29Z Riastradh: (Might start with a bigger number too, like 16.)
2015-01-27T18:10:50Z teurastaja: oh
2015-01-27T18:11:44Z teurastaja: interesting so you just copy a vector in another twice as big when you reach the end?
2015-01-27T18:11:50Z Riastradh: Yes.
2015-01-27T18:12:31Z LeoNerd: It's the standard trick to handle realloc() in C
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2015-01-27T18:17:11Z teurastaja: nice algorithm but i dont think my code grows so big (factor of 2). it does try a lot of different branches that i record in a vector but it spends around as much time creating new vectors and destroying them than adding new elements
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2015-01-27T18:17:42Z teurastaja: thats why i want to limit vector creation
2015-01-27T18:18:05Z teurastaja: hmm... (thinking)
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2015-01-27T18:19:50Z teurastaja: and i guess i should check bounds by inspecting the elements when i iterate inside the vector?
2015-01-27T18:21:04Z teurastaja: because i certainly dont want to apply something like #f
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2015-01-27T18:23:28Z teurastaja: what is the asymptotic growth if i use an association list to iterate through index elements in order?
2015-01-27T18:24:47Z teurastaja: doesnt need to grow that big so maybe its a solution
2015-01-27T18:26:06Z teurastaja: O(n^2) ?
2015-01-27T18:26:54Z teurastaja: worst case?
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2015-01-27T21:57:44Z jcowan: hey ho
2015-01-27T21:57:50Z vanila: hi jcowan !
2015-01-27T21:57:50Z jcowan: home from work, alas
2015-01-27T21:58:06Z Riastradh: The city's been cancelled, eh?
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2015-01-27T21:58:21Z jcowan: Unnecessarily, as it turns out.
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2015-01-27T21:58:28Z vanila: jcowan, I showed you my pattern matcher before - I totally rewrote it much better today
2015-01-27T21:58:40Z jcowan: Excellent
2015-01-27T21:59:02Z Riastradh: One or two feet of snow a bit further northeast.
2015-01-27T21:59:03Z jcowan: So I'm losing money
2015-01-27T21:59:10Z jcowan: no play, no pay
2015-01-27T21:59:29Z vanila: also I will compare it with olegs and foofs matchers, I wonder if there are others i should compare with
2015-01-27T22:03:06Z jcowan: So I've been thinking about SRFI 33 and vector sorts.
2015-01-27T22:03:08Z vanila: jcowan, Oh is there a way to request er-macros for R7RS?
2015-01-27T22:03:32Z vanila: (right now I have to get this in different ways if i use sagittarius or chicken)
2015-01-27T22:03:33Z jcowan: vanila: They will be part of R7RS-large as things stand, but there may be other macro libraries as well; that's an open question.
2015-01-27T22:03:38Z vanila: oh great!
2015-01-27T22:03:49Z vanila: I think ir/er-macro is really important
2015-01-27T22:04:01Z vanila: looking up SRFI 33
2015-01-27T22:04:14Z jcowan: Don't, it's too hairy
2015-01-27T22:04:20Z vanila: ah
2015-01-27T22:04:27Z Riastradh: What's too hairy about SRFI 33?
2015-01-27T22:04:30Z jcowan: look at http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/SortingShivers instead: same content, fully edited
2015-01-27T22:04:43Z jcowan: Very repetitive
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2015-01-27T22:05:08Z taylanub: vanila: Sagittarius should just implement syntax-case :)
2015-01-27T22:05:17Z jcowan: It defines four sorts on vectors: insert, heap, quick, and merge
2015-01-27T22:05:18Z vanila: I think that it does now?
2015-01-27T22:05:20Z taylanub: wait, isn't it R6RS?  I'm pretty sure Chicken has syntax-case too, so...
2015-01-27T22:05:27Z vanila: it's R6RS and R7RS
2015-01-27T22:05:29Z jcowan: Chicken has er/ir only
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2015-01-27T22:05:54Z taylanub: well, at least in some module it has it: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/3/syntax-case
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2015-01-27T22:06:08Z jcowan: Note the 3, that means Chicken 3, which is long obsolete
2015-01-27T22:06:22Z taylanub: ouch
2015-01-27T22:06:24Z vanila: http://compassoftime.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/implementing-non-portable-syntax-case.html
2015-01-27T22:06:26Z jcowan: I should write down which Schemes have what macro packages
2015-01-27T22:06:26Z vanila: "Sagittarius is using none of them but implementing own syntax-case expander and library system, it wouldn't hurt to write an article for this"
2015-01-27T22:06:31Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/mffc9r2
2015-01-27T22:06:52Z taylanub: vanila: I would lobby for syntax-case on the Chicken side :)
2015-01-27T22:06:53Z vanila: I'm using it to for R7RS code
2015-01-27T22:07:01Z taylanub: and syntax-parse as well as syntax-case on the R7RS side
2015-01-27T22:07:08Z jcowan: I'm thinking now that with introsort, which is quicksort that falls back to heapsort when things get ugly, it's enough just to have merge sort when you want stable sort and introsort when you don't care about stability.
2015-01-27T22:07:53Z jcowan: Personally I don't use low-level macros, so it doesn't matter to me what gets specified.  ER got a majority of votes, SC and syntax-case did not.
2015-01-27T22:08:03Z jcowan: But by popular demand I will reopen those votes later.
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2015-01-27T22:08:24Z vanila: jcowan, er/ir is very important because syntax-rules does not let me use a scheme function to write a macro
2015-01-27T22:08:48Z vanila: I can use ck macros to translate scheme code into a macro but it is extremely slow since syntax-rules is not optimized for this kind of abuse
2015-01-27T22:08:49Z jcowan: Any low-level variety allows that
2015-01-27T22:08:55Z jcowan: It is the point of low-level macro systems
2015-01-27T22:09:23Z jcowan: But afaik no one has ever proved that syntax-case and sc have equivalent power.
2015-01-27T22:09:29Z jcowan: expressive power, I mean
2015-01-27T22:09:44Z vanila: by sc you mean syntactic-closures?
2015-01-27T22:10:13Z vanila: sorry, what is SC short for
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2015-01-27T22:14:49Z jcowan: Whereas it is known that sc encompasses er/ir, and in fact most sc implementations include them.
2015-01-27T22:15:04Z vanila: ah okay
2015-01-27T22:15:54Z jcowan: or include er, anyway; ir is more recent and the Chicken implementation is O(N^2)
2015-01-27T22:15:54Z jcowan: So should I flush the individual sorting algos?
2015-01-27T22:15:54Z vanila: i am just reading this sortingshivers thing
2015-01-27T22:16:40Z vanila: (I do not really know about sc macros, I thought ir and er were enough for everything but I don't like the sound of O(N^2)...)
2015-01-27T22:17:14Z jcowan: Eh, it depends on how much work you do in the macro.
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2015-01-27T22:19:57Z vanila: I think it would be good to have all the sorting algorithms
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2015-01-27T22:22:35Z jcowan: The question is, given introsort (which is a quicksort that switches to heapsort when it is recursing too much), do you really need insertion sort (N^2) or quicksort (N log N average, but N^2 worst case)?
2015-01-27T22:23:43Z vanila: introsort sounds a bit magic, if it checks out in benchmark then it can subsume the
2015-01-27T22:23:45Z vanila: them both
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2015-01-27T22:24:16Z jcowan: Quicksort goes sour when the partitioning algorithm winds up partitioning too much.  In particular, when the partitions are "1 element" and "all the rest" each time.
2015-01-27T22:25:11Z jcowan: So watching the depth (hence the idea of introspective sort) tells you that that is happening, and then you can heapsort, which is always N log N.
2015-01-27T22:25:21Z jcowan: (that is, heapsort the bad stretch, not the whole thing)
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2015-01-27T22:25:58Z jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introsort
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2015-01-27T22:27:06Z vanila: amazing
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