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I'm a big fan of microscheme too. 2015-01-06T03:43:33Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2015-01-06T03:48:29Z Rodya_ joined #scheme 2015-01-06T03:49:51Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-06T03:50:27Z oleo joined #scheme 2015-01-06T03:50:38Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2015-01-06T03:54:40Z zachstone joined #scheme 2015-01-06T03:55:02Z cojy: technomancy: i saw your blog on moving to thailand, you might be interested in talking to brucem since he lives there (maintainer of opendylan and im sure you've seen him post a ton on lobste.rs) 2015-01-06T03:57:07Z cojy: fantazo: one thing is there's minikanren hangouts going on again https://www.youtube.com/user/WilliamEByrd/videos & https://github.com/webyrd/miniKanren-uncourse 2015-01-06T03:57:59Z hiyosi joined #scheme 2015-01-06T04:01:00Z xyh joined #scheme 2015-01-06T04:12:33Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2015-01-06T04:15:10Z ecthiender joined #scheme 2015-01-06T04:17:19Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-06T04:23:22Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-06T04:23:52Z jlongster joined #scheme 2015-01-06T04:25:21Z Bor0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-06T04:27:14Z technomancy: cojy: cool; didn't know that 2015-01-06T04:33:24Z psy_ joined #scheme 2015-01-06T04:42:36Z amgarching joined #scheme 2015-01-06T04:42:39Z zv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-06T04:43:33Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-06T04:44:15Z Rodya_ quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-01-06T04:45:49Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-06T04:54:34Z ravi_ joined #scheme 2015-01-06T04:57:33Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2015-01-06T04:59:23Z psy_ joined #scheme 2015-01-06T05:00:33Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-06T05:01:36Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-06T05:02:02Z frkout joined #scheme 2015-01-06T05:02:58Z chu quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-06T05:03:11Z adu joined #scheme 2015-01-06T05:03:47Z goglosh quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-01-06T05:03:51Z chu joined #scheme 2015-01-06T05:04:09Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2015-01-06T05:06:52Z zachstone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-06T05:07:16Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-06T05:08:35Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-06T05:09:02Z frkout joined #scheme 2015-01-06T05:12:49Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2015-01-06T05:29:29Z jlongster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-06T05:29:35Z mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 2015-01-06T05:34:44Z zRecursive joined #scheme 2015-01-06T05:51:00Z turtleman_ joined #scheme 2015-01-06T05:51:11Z ecthiender quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-06T05:53:35Z ecthiender joined #scheme 2015-01-06T05:56:40Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-06T06:00:52Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2015-01-06T06:01:57Z BitPuffin joined #scheme 2015-01-06T06:04:35Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-06T06:06:10Z turtleman_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-06T06:06:39Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-06T06:10:13Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2015-01-06T06:30:23Z zachstone joined #scheme 2015-01-06T06:40:17Z adu joined #scheme 2015-01-06T06:40:50Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2015-01-06T06:47:58Z kazimir42 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-06T06:57:20Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-06T06:57:46Z frkout joined #scheme 2015-01-06T07:01:17Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I remember. but wasn't it that some implementations don't support that, was it? 2015-01-06T08:11:12Z cojy: (let ((a '())) (define (pred x) ...) (pred 'foo)) (pred 'bar) 2015-01-06T08:11:18Z cojy: the foo one works fine 2015-01-06T08:11:27Z cojy: the bar one, pred is unbound 2015-01-06T08:11:30Z cojy: and will error 2015-01-06T08:11:36Z cojy: fantazo: no it's standard always 2015-01-06T08:11:53Z cojy: since the earliest scheme afaik 2015-01-06T08:11:55Z Vutral joined #scheme 2015-01-06T08:12:01Z cojy: SICP uses it a lot 2015-01-06T08:12:44Z fantazo: ok, wtf brain, wtf?! 2015-01-06T08:20:18Z stepnem joined #scheme 2015-01-06T08:29:55Z frkout_ joined #scheme 2015-01-06T08:33:39Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-06T08:35:39Z zachstone quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-06T08:43:18Z Bahman joined #scheme 2015-01-06T08:43:37Z ravi_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-06T08:46:09Z vdamewood joined #scheme 2015-01-06T08:46:58Z uber_hulk joined #scheme 2015-01-06T08:47:44Z redeemed joined #scheme 2015-01-06T08:48:02Z ijp joined #scheme 2015-01-06T08:52:00Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 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2015-01-06T14:53:53Z Bahman joined #scheme 2015-01-06T15:00:46Z oleo joined #scheme 2015-01-06T15:01:52Z adu joined #scheme 2015-01-06T15:06:42Z bjz joined #scheme 2015-01-06T15:11:26Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2015-01-06T15:13:25Z eagleflo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-06T15:13:37Z emlow quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-06T15:14:13Z eagleflo joined #scheme 2015-01-06T15:22:17Z mrnugget joined #scheme 2015-01-06T15:22:31Z bjz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-06T15:23:05Z bjz joined #scheme 2015-01-06T15:26:52Z bjz quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-01-06T15:28:01Z bjz joined #scheme 2015-01-06T15:28:16Z mrnugget: Currently working through SICP. Can someone explain to me this: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-15.html#%_sec_2.2.2 -- I don't get how `(cons (list 1 2) (list 3 4))` results in a "list of three items". imho, it should be a pair with two pointers to a list each. That's why I can't make sense of figure 2.6 and the notation "((1 2) 3 4)" too. Any ideas? I won't dare to say that something in 2015-01-06T15:28:17Z mrnugget: the book is wrong. I rather think I'm mistaken somewhere :) 2015-01-06T15:30:25Z narendraj9: cons adds an element to an existing list. 2015-01-06T15:30:49Z narendraj9: cons makes it the head. And lists in Scheme can be non-homogeneous. 2015-01-06T15:31:01Z narendraj9: Do you see how we have three elements now? 2015-01-06T15:31:18Z mrnugget: aahh! 2015-01-06T15:31:53Z mrnugget: that makes sense! maybe I missed something in the book then. I was still under the impression that `cons` creates a "pair" 2015-01-06T15:32:56Z narendraj9: I may be wrong. 2015-01-06T15:33:46Z ecraven: mrnugget: cons does create a pair, a list is nothing but subsequent pairs 2015-01-06T15:33:52Z narendraj9: But aren't lists just cons applied over and over. '(1 2 3) is (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil)))? 2015-01-06T15:34:04Z ecraven: do you understand why '(1 2 3) is the same as '(1 . (2 . (3 . ())))? 2015-01-06T15:35:34Z mrnugget: yeah, I do. 2015-01-06T15:36:20Z ecraven: (cons (list 1 2) (list 3 4) is the same as (cons (cons 1 (cons 2 nil)) (cons 3 (cons 4 nil))) which is the same as (cons X (cons 3 (cons 4 nil))), thus a list of three items 2015-01-06T15:36:41Z narendraj9: ecraven: I don't understand the dots. Can you please explain what they do? :) 2015-01-06T15:36:56Z narendraj9: The ones in '(1 . (2 . (3 . ())))) 2015-01-06T15:37:03Z ecraven: narendraj9: '(a . b) is the same as (cons a b) 2015-01-06T15:37:07Z ecraven: it is just a shorthand 2015-01-06T15:38:12Z narendraj9: Somewhat strange shortand, to me. Thanks anyway :) 2015-01-06T15:39:46Z mrnugget: I think I get it now. When the book says "list of three items" it really means a list in the form of (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))), pairs where the last element points to another pair. and since (cons (list 1 2) (list 3 4)) can be reduced to this form of a list, the first element is a list... I thought "in pairs", if that makes sense 2015-01-06T15:40:39Z mrnugget: I thought about a pair with two pointers, each pointing to a pair with a value and a pointer... 2015-01-06T15:40:47Z ecraven: mrnugget: well, the total number of pairs that is created is 4, but any way you look at it the actual *list* only has 3 items 2015-01-06T15:40:59Z ecraven: (unless you count all sublists too, but that is not a "list" any more) 2015-01-06T15:41:06Z ecraven: if you look at it as a tree, it certainly has 4 leaves ;) 2015-01-06T15:42:34Z mrnugget: that does make sense, yes. I thought (cons (list 1 2) (list 3 4)) was equal to (list (list 1 2) (list 3 4)), but it's not 2015-01-06T15:42:47Z z0d: first item: '(1 2). second item: '(3 4). third item: nil, which terminates a proper list 2015-01-06T15:42:57Z ecraven: no, cons prepends an element to a list, while list creates a new list with all its parameters 2015-01-06T15:43:10Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-01-06T15:43:23Z ecraven: z0d: actually, first item is '(1 2), second item is 3, third item is 4, then nil 2015-01-06T15:43:45Z narendraj9: mrnugget: (list (list 1 2) (list 3 4)) is a list that has two elements in it. 2015-01-06T15:44:11Z narendraj9: As ecraven explained. 2015-01-06T15:44:12Z z0d: ecraven: err, yeah. my bad 2015-01-06T15:44:21Z mrnugget: narendraj9: yep, that's what I assumed (cons (list 1 2) (list 3 4)) was, hence my confusion. 2015-01-06T15:44:33Z mrnugget: thanks! I think I figured it out :) 2015-01-06T15:44:55Z narendraj9: mrnugget: Sorry. I read that wrong. 2015-01-06T15:47:22Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-06T15:49:02Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-06T15:49:21Z chu joined #scheme 2015-01-06T15:49:58Z chu is now known as Guest52215 2015-01-06T15:50:33Z pjb: (a . b) is not a short hand for (cons a b). (cons 'a 'b) would return a cons cell equal? to (a . b) (a . b) is a cons cell with the symbol a in the car, and the symbol b in the cdr. (cons a b) returns a cons cell with the value bound to a in the car, and the value bound to be in the cdr. 2015-01-06T15:50:58Z xyh joined #scheme 2015-01-06T15:54:39Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-06T15:55:54Z motersen joined #scheme 2015-01-06T15:56:49Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-06T16:01:27Z bjz joined #scheme 2015-01-06T16:04:14Z araujo joined #scheme 2015-01-06T16:04:28Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-01-06T16:04:29Z araujo joined #scheme 2015-01-06T16:06:53Z benregn quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I assume I'd be expected to recreate the list every time I wanted to change the color of a pixel? 2015-01-06T21:21:29Z Pixel_Outlaw: Seems like a LOT of excess consing to change the color of a pixel in something that could be thousands of elements. 2015-01-06T21:22:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: Torn between the ease of modification in vectors, and the ease of global operations in lists... 2015-01-06T21:22:37Z bjz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-06T21:24:23Z pjb: you can implement high level operations to work on vector and bitmaps too. 2015-01-06T21:24:40Z Pixel_Outlaw: But won't they still return a copy? 2015-01-06T21:24:44Z pjb: bitmaps are not vectors anyways, they're bidimentional arrays. 2015-01-06T21:24:59Z pjb: In CL, there's map and map-into. 2015-01-06T21:25:15Z pjb: So you may return a copy, or modify in place. 2015-01-06T21:26:06Z gnomon: Pixel_Outlaw, hang on, I seem to recall a short article tangentially pertinent to your question. 2015-01-06T21:27:03Z masm joined #scheme 2015-01-06T21:27:06Z Pixel_Outlaw: Cool thanks. I'm going through the old SICP lectures learning Scheme (I learned a large portion of CL and now want to see how "the other side" does it). 2015-01-06T21:27:25Z civodul joined #scheme 2015-01-06T21:29:31Z zv joined #scheme 2015-01-06T21:30:19Z Pixel_Outlaw: professor Abelson seems quite adamant about the avoidance of set! but it seems kind of unrealistic. 2015-01-06T21:31:14Z bjz joined #scheme 2015-01-06T21:32:25Z mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 2015-01-06T21:32:45Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-06T21:33:17Z alezost quit (Quit: I use GNU Guix ) 2015-01-06T21:39:27Z bjz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-06T21:39:53Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'll go with both :) 2015-01-06T22:49:42Z turbofail: Pixel_Outlaw: you can use set-car! and set-cdr! if you insist on using a list 2015-01-06T22:49:51Z turbofail: using those you can write a set-nth! 2015-01-06T22:49:56Z wasamasa: Pixel_Outlaw: better modify an array 2015-01-06T22:50:03Z turbofail: well you'll probably only need set-car! for this particular purpose 2015-01-06T22:50:09Z turbofail: that said an array is still better 2015-01-06T22:50:14Z wasamasa: Pixel_Outlaw: modifying lists can have unexpected side effects 2015-01-06T22:50:25Z wasamasa: Pixel_Outlaw: especially if your implementation happens to reuse lists 2015-01-06T22:50:27Z turbofail: even better would be a uniform array of primitives, which is outside the realm of r5rs 2015-01-06T22:50:38Z turbofail: r6rs has bytevectors which would be more appropriate 2015-01-06T22:56:23Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thanks for the help, I guess I didn't know about set-car! and set-cdr! 2015-01-06T22:56:40Z Pixel_Outlaw: Think I'll just stick 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