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2014-12-27T06:41:46Z theseb: scheme  has a different command for defining and changing variables right?
2014-12-27T06:41:50Z theseb: can you use set! for both?
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2014-12-27T06:45:47Z Riastradh: There are languages that fail to distinguish creating variables from modifying existing ones.  Programs in these languages are error-prone and hard to read, because you can never be sure whether you're creating a local variable for a local purpose or accidentally modifying some other variable.
2014-12-27T06:46:58Z Riastradh: If you are intentionally modifying a variable you expect to exist already, and it doesn't, then conflating the two operations leads to masking a legitimate error which is likely to return to bite you later on.
2014-12-27T06:47:50Z theseb: Riastradh: yea in python there is not difference between initialization and mutation
2014-12-27T06:48:14Z Riastradh: I've been bitten many times by that idiocy in Python.
2014-12-27T06:48:39Z theseb: Riastradh: i was actually thinking of how to possibly "compile" a python program down to lisp......this was tripping me up
2014-12-27T06:49:03Z theseb: Riastradh: somehow i'd have to "detect" in python code whether it was an initialization or mutation...that may be possible..just never considered it :)
2014-12-27T06:49:13Z Riastradh: Someone did that for Racket a while ago, back when it was still called PLT.
2014-12-27T06:49:34Z theseb: Riastradh: yup...some guy named Silva et al... I've been reading up on that :)
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2014-12-27T06:49:39Z theseb: Riastradh: you are well informed :)
2014-12-27T06:49:46Z Riastradh: Note that a simple-minded transliteration won't help, because internal definitions are lexically scoped in Scheme, unlike in Python where they are idiotly scoped.
2014-12-27T06:50:01Z theseb: lol
2014-12-27T06:50:21Z theseb: Riastradh: i'm impressed you knew that
2014-12-27T06:50:42Z theseb: Riastradh: this was partly a little personal research to see exactly what the impedance mismatches such as what you mentioned there were
2014-12-27T06:51:16Z Riastradh: Probably what you want to do, to match Python's semantics, is to just create a hash table for every procedure body, and convert variable reference to lookup and variable assignment to insert-or-replace.
2014-12-27T06:51:23Z theseb: Riastradh: it all started when i heard some comments from somehow about how python was "lisp w/o the parentheses"..that got the curiosity burning in my head
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2014-12-27T06:53:01Z theseb: Riastradh: that hash table sounds a lot like lisp's notion of an "environment"
2014-12-27T06:53:07Z Riastradh: Not at all.
2014-12-27T06:53:36Z Riastradh: (OK, that's an exaggeration -- there is a correspondence.)
2014-12-27T06:54:15Z Riastradh: An environment is a map from names to meanings, and is a data structure that a program-analyzing program uses.
2014-12-27T06:55:12Z theseb: Riastradh: well to convert python to scheme i'm guessing the only stuff that would need to go in the "environment" would be the module level (global) variables...fortunately it is obvious what those are in python
2014-12-27T06:55:15Z Riastradh: A sensible compiler will generate code that is independent of the names that were in the environment, and store the values of variables in, e.g., contiguous arrays in memory or in registers.
2014-12-27T06:55:48Z theseb: Riastradh: err...wait...if you nested functions in python i guess you'd have a hierarchy of environment like in scheme..so see there is some similarity
2014-12-27T06:55:53Z Riastradh: A trivial example of this is a compiler from Scheme with named variables to Scheme with numbered variables and de Bruijn indices.
2014-12-27T06:57:06Z theseb: yea...that's just optimization......i'm way to early at this stage to think of speed
2014-12-27T06:57:20Z Riastradh: Of course, you could do something similar for Python too: for each procedure body, collect all the variables that are ever created in that body, and generate code that fills an array of values (and an array of flags saying whether or not the variable has been created yet).
2014-12-27T06:58:21Z Riastradh: There's more than just an optimization here: the important part is that the program's semantics be independent of the names you chose to write it.  (That's why the optimization is allowed.)
2014-12-27T06:59:08Z theseb: Riastradh: right..the names of parameters aren't crucial
2014-12-27T07:01:48Z theseb: Riastradh: superficially a lot of stuff *seems* similar....both scheme and python have an "if"....both have recursion..both have variable assignment....
2014-12-27T07:02:06Z theseb: Riastradh: i even implemented for and while loops in scheme using recursion in preparation
2014-12-27T07:02:17Z theseb: Riastradh: somehow someway they both will come together
2014-12-27T07:02:38Z theseb: python *will* be a little skin on top of lisp as the "Let Over Lambda" guy  used that phrase
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2014-12-27T09:02:16Z lrs: Im trying to make a scheme program that checks if the process is a int or boolean
2014-12-27T09:02:31Z lrs: For example > (check '(+ int int))
2014-12-27T09:02:31Z lrs:   int
2014-12-27T09:02:52Z lrs:  > (check '(= (< (+ int int) (quotient int int)) (> int int)))
2014-12-27T09:02:57Z lrs:  bool
2014-12-27T09:03:03Z lrs: Anyone have a tip?
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2014-12-27T09:50:21Z cojy: lrs: shouldn't that return an error
2014-12-27T09:51:27Z cojy: = should take numbers, not bools, unless this is a different language
2014-12-27T09:54:23Z C-Keen: there should be boolean? and some schemes have exact?
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2014-12-27T09:56:15Z cojy: lrs it sounds like you want to look up hindley-milner type checking/inference. though if what you have said is all you need, it will be very simple
2014-12-27T09:56:45Z lrs:  cojy Yes
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2014-12-27T10:00:03Z cojy: the easiest way to do it in scheme if you can use existing code is via minikanren, otherwise you should learn about unification
2014-12-27T10:00:41Z cojy: you can easily find examples of type inferencers in minikanren
2014-12-27T10:04:29Z cojy:  actually probably not a good idea for learning how it works, should just do your own
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2014-12-27T10:19:04Z lrs: cojy, Minkanren?
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2014-12-27T10:20:34Z cojy: don't worry about, it's something else, just learn how to do unification
2014-12-27T10:32:29Z lrs: cojy, Unification?
2014-12-27T10:43:30Z lrs: cojy, http://www.scheme.com/tspl3/examples.html#./examples:h10
2014-12-27T10:43:39Z lrs: cojy, Is this a good place to start?
2014-12-27T10:46:29Z lrs: cojy, Look at "defining abstract objects"
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2014-12-27T11:50:35Z lrs: Why isnt there a set-car! functioN?
2014-12-27T11:50:43Z lrs: And what do I use if I don want to use set-car
2014-12-27T11:51:45Z lrs: http://paste.pound-python.org/show/bnfmGhFOJO9e8P7ofgK6/
2014-12-27T11:51:51Z lrs: I need to convert that one
2014-12-27T11:52:32Z wasamasa: csi has set-car!
2014-12-27T11:53:18Z wasamasa: so has guile
2014-12-27T11:53:32Z wasamasa: racket however doesn't, hum
2014-12-27T11:53:38Z lrs: Right
2014-12-27T11:54:47Z wasamasa: inb4 it has rplaca instead :P
2014-12-27T11:55:15Z lrs:  wasamasa rplaca?
2014-12-27T11:55:34Z wasamasa: lrs: the CL equivalent of set-car!
2014-12-27T11:55:40Z lrs: CL?
2014-12-27T11:55:43Z lrs: Im using racket
2014-12-27T11:56:20Z wasamasa: I was making a joke about a certain other dialect of lisp than scheme
2014-12-27T11:57:06Z wasamasa: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9475366/set-car-set-cdr-unbound-in-racket
2014-12-27T11:57:06Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/mqkm3va
2014-12-27T11:57:23Z wasamasa: so, racket got rid of them
2014-12-27T11:57:23Z wasamasa: yay
2014-12-27T11:58:53Z wasamasa: I can sort of understand the motivation
2014-12-27T11:59:01Z lrs: wasamasa, Yeah I saw that one
2014-12-27T11:59:11Z lrs: But the require thing doesnt work
2014-12-27T11:59:14Z lrs: Cant improt it either
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2014-12-27T16:31:58Z sethalves: http://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=309ad9f49a5e5ee02e3eca266ff225a41f5850a7
2014-12-27T16:32:15Z sethalves: should that print abc or abbbbbb.... ?
2014-12-27T16:34:51Z Riastradh: Wrap it in a LET; then it will print abbbbb.  Type it into the REPL; then it will print abc.  (What's the continuation that CWCC captures at the REPL?  Not (display "b\n") and then go on; rather, read another input, evaluate it, print it, and then go on.)
2014-12-27T16:37:20Z sethalves: chibi and chicken and guache print abc.  guile and foment print abbbb.  kawa crashes
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2014-12-27T16:37:41Z sethalves: in programs, I haven't tried it in a repl
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2014-12-27T16:39:51Z sethalves: I understand why it prints abc in a repl.  I'm not sure I understand why there is disagreement about this code in program form
2014-12-27T16:40:15Z Riastradh: What's the continuation that you're invoking?  What does it do?
2014-12-27T16:41:06Z sethalves: oh is the disagreement just because it's at the top level?
2014-12-27T16:41:40Z Riastradh: No, top level is a red herring; I suggested the LET just to make sure that nothing would try to interpret the whole program as a sort of `REPL script'.
2014-12-27T16:42:10Z Riastradh: Although this might be helpful.  Consider the difference between the following two ways to run a program:
2014-12-27T16:42:35Z Riastradh: (let loop () (let ((form (read))) (if (not (eof-object? form)) (begin (print (eval form env)) (loop]
2014-12-27T16:43:11Z Riastradh: (let loop ((forms '())) (let ((form (read))) (if (eof-object? form) (for-each (lambda (form) (print (eval form env))) (reverse! forms)) (loop (cons form forms]
2014-12-27T16:44:08Z sethalves: sec, formatting in another buffer
2014-12-27T16:45:39Z sethalves: hm... yeah, I think I see what you mean
2014-12-27T16:45:52Z sethalves: with this one: http://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=309ad9f49a5e5ee02e3eca266ff225a41f5850a7#a1
2014-12-27T16:45:54Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/muwh56m
2014-12-27T16:46:03Z sethalves: they all print abbbbb.... (except kawa still crashes)
2014-12-27T16:47:36Z Riastradh: Yes, Kawa is broken.
2014-12-27T16:47:48Z sethalves: so I will go pesk Mr Bothner.  thanks for the help, Riastradh
2014-12-27T16:49:16Z Riastradh: Not likely to help.  It's been fundamentally broken forever, by intent.
2014-12-27T16:49:33Z Riastradh: CWCC doesn't work in general in Kawa.
2014-12-27T16:51:15Z sethalves: ah... "Also, call-with-current-continuation is only "upwards" (?). I.e. once a continuation has been exited, it cannot be invoked."
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