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2014-12-22T04:34:51Z leo2007: how normally do one add multiple values support to a language that doesn't have it?
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2014-12-22T04:51:51Z cojy: leo2007: what do you mean by add? modify the interpreter/compiler to support it? or just a way to emulate it inside the language?
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2014-12-22T04:56:35Z leo2007: the latter
2014-12-22T04:56:42Z leo2007: I am looking at elisp.
2014-12-22T04:58:13Z technomancy: why would you want to add multiple values to a language?
2014-12-22T04:58:24Z technomancy: multiple values only makes sense for languages invented before pattern matching
2014-12-22T04:59:28Z leo2007: technomancy: I find uses for them when writing macros.
2014-12-22T04:59:56Z cojy: you could write them in continuation passing style
2014-12-22T05:00:22Z leo2007: no I am ready to turn every thing into cps.
2014-12-22T05:00:30Z leo2007: I am not*
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2014-12-22T05:01:38Z technomancy: leo2007: the only unfortunate reason scheme has multiple values is that you *can't* implement them in userspace.
2014-12-22T05:01:44Z technomancy: and with pattern matching, you wouldn't want to anyway
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2014-12-22T18:55:15Z names: haroldwu fikusz REPLeffect joneshf-laptop Sgeo necronian diginet joast mlaine technomancy mark_weaver c74d Intensity Soft- cky Razz gnomon weinholt nisstyre jrslepak averell aksatac fizzie 32NAARMUJ dan64- pygospa balkamos amoe transfinite cjh` gluegadget dytrivedi__ wilfredh__ greghendershott `nik` leppie arrdem duncanm_ acieroid FracV kilimanjaro__ peterhil` hive-mind tadni evhan pjdelport superjudge chameco jkraemer nitrix jyc ggherdov jcloud
2014-12-22T18:55:15Z names: ByronJohnson dsp ELLIOTTCABLE girrig PinealGlandOptic ivan\ Natch akkad emlow SHODAN finnrobi_ zeroish serhart net4all Khisanth kbtr ohama LeoNerd nowhereman gabot wasamasa niklasl clog ski sethalves CatPlusPlus samth kwmiebach Kryo cmatei z0d twem2 tsuyoshi SirDayBat micro^ fadein DerGuteMoritz certainty copec GGMethos rudybot byte48 vikraman ska-fan turbofail TrueShiftBlue offby1 tessier_ ozzloy benaiah kilimanjaro yrdz Riviera Blkt dualbus utkarsh
2014-12-22T18:55:15Z names: pchrist antoszka C-Keen eMBee aking cross poucet sigjuice zbigniew tstc rotty_ klutometis Neet aap defanor vukcrni eagleflo dpk yukko swilr mrowe_away emma carc shardz cojy teiresias gf3
2014-12-22T19:02:27Z wasamasa: Tau: I'm almost more interested in how stuff works than what it does :P
2014-12-22T19:02:59Z Tau:  wasamasa oh.
2014-12-22T19:03:13Z Tau:  wasamasa sounds a good approach.
2014-12-22T19:03:22Z wasamasa: Tau: emacs taught me it
2014-12-22T19:03:35Z Tau: heh.
2014-12-22T19:04:33Z wasamasa: since the manuals are dense and google didn't help, I dug through the sources of stuff
2014-12-22T19:04:43Z wasamasa: learned to get proficient at tracing the flow of execution
2014-12-22T19:04:54Z Tau: yeah.
2014-12-22T19:04:55Z wasamasa: and now I do that for pretty much anything I can get the sources of
2014-12-22T19:05:04Z wasamasa: sometimes I do it the other way around and use `strace` on it
2014-12-22T19:05:08Z Tau: it is a good skill to acquire.
2014-12-22T19:05:17Z Tau: :D
2014-12-22T19:06:51Z wasamasa: ironically I hated navigating to the sources of python modules and reading them before that
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2014-12-22T19:07:04Z wasamasa: but with the right tooling it's kind of fun
2014-12-22T19:07:10Z Tau: python std alibs are kind of messy.
2014-12-22T19:07:15Z Tau: it is like sausage.
2014-12-22T19:07:20Z wasamasa: well, not only those
2014-12-22T19:07:24Z Tau: if you are aware of how it is done then you dont eat it.
2014-12-22T19:07:44Z wasamasa: pah, if I were to think like that, I'd never use emacs
2014-12-22T19:07:51Z Tau: :P
2014-12-22T19:07:52Z wasamasa: or vim or anything substantially complicated
2014-12-22T19:08:15Z wasamasa: no, I want to understand those systems a bit better to hack and improve them
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2014-12-22T19:08:58Z Tau: some systems are so complicated and badly written that only rewriting them to improve.
2014-12-22T19:09:31Z wasamasa: well, you still need to understand how they work to not fall into the same traps
2014-12-22T19:09:41Z wasamasa: the libressl authors for instance did have the chops for that
2014-12-22T19:10:18Z Tau:  wasamasa sort of.
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2014-12-22T22:06:21Z greghendershott: If asumu stamourv` samth or anyone has any feedback: https://github.com/greghendershott/racket-mode/issues/67#issuecomment-67895916
2014-12-22T22:06:22Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/lkgllx3
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2014-12-22T22:07:06Z greghendershott: tl;dr I'm feeling unsure how it ought to work, what people really need.
2014-12-22T22:08:04Z greghendershott: (And, "exactly like how DrR does it" probably isn't a realistic option.)
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2014-12-22T22:08:58Z enitiz: hello
2014-12-22T22:10:07Z greghendershott: Crap... and I was in the wrong channel. Sorry folks.
2014-12-22T22:10:14Z samth: greghendershott: taking this to #racket
2014-12-22T22:10:24Z vanila: hi
2014-12-22T22:11:55Z enitiz: what's a good ide/editor to do the exercises in sicp?
2014-12-22T22:12:13Z vanila: any text editor is fine
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2014-12-22T22:16:58Z enitiz: and which interpreter?
2014-12-22T22:17:14Z vanila: chicken or MIT scheme or racket
2014-12-22T22:18:25Z mikeyhc: if you do it in chicken there is a sicp egg which add the functions you need
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2014-12-22T22:26:10Z xyh: hi friends :) is the problem number 29 in the number 9 section of the book <to mock a mockingbird> fully solved ? is the shortest expression been proven ?
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2014-12-22T22:29:50Z ijp: xyh: care to remind us what the proble is so I don't have to dig the book out?
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2014-12-22T22:30:56Z vanila: xyh, it Llooks like it must be the smallest.. but it's hard to know - maybe one would have to do a brute force computation to check. I've been thinking about solving some of the problems in minikanren...
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2014-12-22T22:34:22Z xyh: ijp: :)  I am solving the problems in the book in my language, please wait for me to do some translations
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2014-12-22T22:34:41Z ijp goes in search of the book
2014-12-22T22:36:17Z xyh: L  a.k.a  lark,  (Lx)y = (xy)y,  try to use L to build identity function
2014-12-22T22:37:27Z vanila: its only got to be identity on itself though, no?
2014-12-22T22:37:28Z xyh: I have heared about "brute force computation", but I never truely understand it, I ll learn :P
2014-12-22T22:37:52Z vanila: xyh, I mean generate all L-expressions L, (LL), L(LL), (LL)L, ..... one by one, which are smaller than the given solution
2014-12-22T22:38:02Z vanila: and test to check if any of them works
2014-12-22T22:38:21Z ijp: brute force is not very elegant, since you'd have a number of solutions equal to the nth catalan number
2014-12-22T22:38:51Z xyh: oh! that is called "brute force computation" ??!! so un-cool
2014-12-22T22:39:15Z ijp: so there would be 208012 parenthesisations[sic] for 12 letters
2014-12-22T22:39:46Z ijp: summing up, you'd get something like double that
2014-12-22T22:40:07Z ijp: rudybot: (+ 1 1 2 5 14 42 132 429 1430 4862 16796 58786 208012)
2014-12-22T22:40:07Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 290512
2014-12-22T22:40:21Z ijp: sorry, 1.5x that
2014-12-22T22:41:50Z ijp: it probably isn't open, because someone will have bruteforced it before now
2014-12-22T22:42:55Z xyh: [maybe you ll be interested in]
2014-12-22T22:42:55Z xyh: in my new language [RPN] the problem is ::
2014-12-22T22:42:55Z xyh: have :: y ( x (L) ) = y (y) (x)
2014-12-22T22:42:55Z xyh: example as ::  L  =  [ [ .y (:y) (.:x) ] ]
2014-12-22T22:42:59Z xyh: solution is :: L (L) (L) ( L (L) (L) ) ( L (L) (L) ( L (L) (L) ) )
2014-12-22T22:43:39Z xyh: for example :: (lambda (x) (add x x)) ==>  [ .x .x (add) ]
2014-12-22T22:43:52Z ijp: you could try emailing smullyan, or beg one of the schemers at indiana to ask him in person
2014-12-22T22:44:18Z xyh: :P
2014-12-22T22:44:21Z ijp: hmm, except that it will be the holidays right now
2014-12-22T22:45:08Z xyh: actually, I had emailed Dan before :)
2014-12-22T22:45:38Z xyh: vanila: can you understand my language :)
2014-12-22T22:45:51Z vanila: yes :)
2014-12-22T22:46:00Z vanila: im trying to make a solver in mk now
2014-12-22T22:46:22Z ijp: I could flick through barendreght, but I doubt this sort of puzzle would make it in
2014-12-22T22:46:41Z ijp: hmm, and I still never spell his name right
2014-12-22T22:47:14Z xyh: just   use [] to do abstraction   and   use () to do application
2014-12-22T22:47:57Z xyh: happy thing is that there are still many chapters to read ^-^
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2014-12-22T22:48:42Z ijp: the one in curry's forest annoyed me. I ended up to using coq to check that my proof was right
2014-12-22T22:49:13Z vanila: yeah :)
2014-12-22T22:49:18Z vanila: it's a great book, so  much depth
2014-12-22T22:49:24Z vanila: i havent really done it... just some random bits
2014-12-22T22:51:37Z xyh: my notes [in Chinese] would be in here :: https://github.com/cicada-language/cicada/blob/%E9%81%93/note/note-on-combinator.org
2014-12-22T22:51:37Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/kufq66v
2014-12-22T22:51:38Z xyh: I am using the book to test my language, if wished, I will make an english version later on :)
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