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2014-12-19T06:42:34Z Technodrome: Hey guys i have a few simple scheme questions
2014-12-19T06:43:15Z Technodrome: define vs let ,the difference here is define , defines global variables and functions and let defines local scope , aka local to the (let eetc etc )  , correct?
2014-12-19T06:45:00Z xyh: yes
2014-12-19T06:45:29Z Technodrome: now a define inside of another define, is that available in the scope the original define is sitting in? or does it become local to that define as well?
2014-12-19T06:45:55Z xyh: local
2014-12-19T06:46:23Z cojy: Technodrome: define is still local, it's just lifted to the top of the scope
2014-12-19T06:46:56Z xyh: you may want to learn letrec first
2014-12-19T06:47:03Z xyh: :P
2014-12-19T06:47:22Z Technodrome: so whats the real difference here between using define and let if they are both locked to the scope in which they are defined?
2014-12-19T06:48:09Z xyh: let can not be used in the top level
2014-12-19T06:48:15Z cojy: well for starters define gives a recursive binding
2014-12-19T06:49:00Z Technodrome: what do you mean by top level? as in top level of the stack?
2014-12-19T06:49:22Z cojy: it can be used anywhere
2014-12-19T06:49:24Z Technodrome: how is it still local if its lifted to the top of the stack?
2014-12-19T06:49:31Z Technodrome: so how is that local?
2014-12-19T06:49:38Z Technodrome: so basically any define can be used anywhere right?
2014-12-19T06:49:45Z cojy: nope
2014-12-19T06:50:09Z cojy: it's just accessible anywhere inside where the local scope was last delimited
2014-12-19T06:50:18Z cojy: for example by a define, let, or lambda
2014-12-19T06:50:53Z xyh: (let ([x <value>]) <body>) == ((lambda (x) <body>) <value>)
2014-12-19T06:51:14Z cojy: (lambda () (define a 1) a)
2014-12-19T06:51:19Z cojy: you can use a inside the body of hte lambda
2014-12-19T06:51:20Z cojy: but not outside
2014-12-19T06:51:38Z cojy: also you can't use the a before the define in that case, which is the difference from letrec
2014-12-19T06:52:07Z cojy: you can use it in a procedure before the define, if it gets evaluated after the define
2014-12-19T06:52:09Z Technodrome: so things defined inside of let is only available inside of the let body correct?
2014-12-19T06:52:16Z cojy: yes
2014-12-19T06:52:22Z Technodrome: so yes i get that just fine
2014-12-19T06:52:42Z Technodrome: i just don’t see how some define inside of another define is lifted to the top of the stack ?
2014-12-19T06:53:29Z Technodrome: unless i’m not sure what the top of the stack is in this case
2014-12-19T06:53:54Z cojy: i didn't say anything about stack
2014-12-19T06:54:09Z xyh: Technodrome: stack is too low level to view scheme
2014-12-19T06:54:19Z cojy: you can't use it outside of the outer define Technodrome
2014-12-19T06:54:32Z cojy: it's not global by any means
2014-12-19T06:54:33Z Technodrome: yes
2014-12-19T06:54:51Z Technodrome: so the define is only accessible to things in that scope as well
2014-12-19T06:55:00Z cojy: yes
2014-12-19T06:55:05Z Technodrome: but let creates its own scope inside of that scope pretty much?
2014-12-19T06:55:40Z xyh: Technodrome: "define in define" is hard to understand, it is because it is not the core language.  try to use "letrec" instead, when you first learn scheme :)
2014-12-19T06:55:42Z Technodrome: but that define will be availabl all throughout the scope in which defined correct?
2014-12-19T06:55:58Z cojy: yes
2014-12-19T06:56:21Z Technodrome: but for a let , (let (var val ) etc etc <body> )
2014-12-19T06:56:23Z cojy: a better comparison is letrec they are similar with the caveat i said earlier regarding ordering
2014-12-19T06:56:38Z Technodrome: so its like a scope inside of a scope? essentially creating its own scope ?
2014-12-19T06:56:53Z Technodrome: yes, i’m getting there
2014-12-19T06:56:58Z cojy: not quite
2014-12-19T06:57:31Z Technodrome: the scope is not available outside of the let body right? so it essentially dies then?
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2014-12-19T06:58:28Z cojy: not sure what you mean by dying, but the bindings aren't available outside, correct
2014-12-19T06:59:21Z Technodrome: yes sorry
2014-12-19T06:59:26Z Technodrome: poor choice of words there
2014-12-19T06:59:49Z Technodrome: but the define would obviosuly be available in the scope its defined, since it becomes a part of the scope in which its defined in
2014-12-19T06:59:55Z Technodrome: I think i get that now
2014-12-19T07:01:54Z xyh: cojy: how about (define <name> (lambda (x) (<body> (define <name-2> <sexp-2>)))) ? can I see <name-2> in <body> ??
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2014-12-19T07:02:34Z cojy: depends if that extra set of parens in the lambda body was intentional
2014-12-19T07:02:41Z Technodrome: i know i sound like a noob, but i’ve been a programmer for years in other languages, and messed with O’caml heavily in 2004
2014-12-19T07:03:21Z xyh: I am a newbie :)
2014-12-19T07:03:22Z cojy: but yea xyh you can see the name-2 before the define, BUT you can't access it before the define
2014-12-19T07:03:41Z cojy: foo (define foo 2) => error
2014-12-19T07:04:02Z cojy: (defien bar (lambda () foo)) (define foo 2) (bar) => 2
2014-12-19T07:04:21Z cojy: the difference is that foo wasn't accessed until after (define foo 2)
2014-12-19T07:05:27Z cojy: the binding is lifted, but not when a value gets assigned to it
2014-12-19T07:05:32Z cojy: which is the difference from letrec
2014-12-19T07:06:18Z xyh: sorry,  I meant  (define <name> (lambda (x) <body> (define <name-2> <sexp-2>)))
2014-12-19T07:07:44Z cojy: it will be the same as what i  just showed
2014-12-19T07:08:04Z cojy: whether it's inside the (define <name> (lambda (x) ....) or at toplevel
2014-12-19T07:13:05Z cojy: in chicken scheme http://lpaste.net/116847
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2014-12-19T07:14:59Z cojy: you can see it as "letrec*" in http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/raw-attachment/wiki/WikiStart/r7rs.pdf
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2014-12-19T07:21:00Z xyh: cojy: https://www.refheap.com/95149
2014-12-19T07:21:01Z xyh: :)
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2014-12-19T07:23:41Z xyh: cojy: chicken is ill ?
2014-12-19T07:24:28Z cojy: could be a difference in spec between r5rs and r6/7rs
2014-12-19T07:25:53Z xyh: oh!
2014-12-19T07:25:58Z cojy: could also just be that it happens to work in vicare despite nto being garutneed
2014-12-19T07:26:16Z cojy: theres other schemes it doesn't work in
2014-12-19T07:26:21Z cojy: the 2nd one
2014-12-19T07:29:14Z xyh: it is all about the order of computing.  in what situation the order of computing is wished NOT to be know ?
2014-12-19T07:29:32Z xyh: I never figure it out ...
2014-12-19T07:29:42Z cojy: parallelization
2014-12-19T07:30:04Z cojy: several compilers optimizations
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2014-12-19T07:31:56Z cojy: if the order is undefined then you can do arbitrary re-ordering or parallelization to speed things up
2014-12-19T07:33:43Z cojy: an example relevant to this are the differences in what can be done between letrec and letrec* (define)  in this paper http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/papers/fixing-letrec.pdf
2014-12-19T07:34:06Z cojy: that's just one small thing though
2014-12-19T07:34:16Z xyh: kent's paper :)
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2014-12-19T07:43:46Z xyh: cojy: about compilers optimizations, the language's semantic about order is not matter.
2014-12-19T07:43:46Z xyh: that matter is that the compiler should be able to tell when the order is matter and when the order is not matter.
2014-12-19T07:43:46Z xyh: if it can proof the order is not matter, then it can change the order, even if the language's semantic is with order.
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2014-12-19T07:46:28Z cojy: the two issues with that are 1. it's really hard to prove more than trivial cases and 2. if you tell the programmers they can't rely on it in the first place they have to program in a style more amendable to optimization in the first place.
2014-12-19T07:47:14Z cojy: for example in languages like ruby and python where they are allowed to relyh on it, all of the libraries and runtime become infested and it becomes impossible to optimize any of it
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2014-12-19T07:47:46Z xyh: the it in " rely on it " is ?
2014-12-19T07:48:01Z cojy: mostly execution order and mutation
2014-12-19T07:49:09Z cojy: even in languages like haskell where effects are explicitly typed and laziness frees up the execution order, it's hard writing optimizations
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2014-12-19T08:00:02Z xyh: cojy: if an optimizer depends on "the ability to re-order".
2014-12-19T08:00:03Z xyh: as some scheme and haskell implementations, then, when ever you do a something equals to "get the order back".
2014-12-19T08:00:03Z xyh: such as CPS and monad, it is to hurt the optimizer.
2014-12-19T08:00:17Z xyh: rigth?
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2014-12-19T08:01:26Z cojy: yes
2014-12-19T08:02:10Z cojy: much effort is needed to reclaim some of the optimizability after cps transformation specifically
2014-12-19T08:07:33Z xyh: actually I have no experience on optimization at all :P
2014-12-19T08:07:33Z xyh: in my naive view, the best optimization would be
2014-12-19T08:07:33Z xyh: transform an expression like an algebraic equation,
2014-12-19T08:07:33Z xyh: while reduce a value of that expression which is called "time".
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2014-12-19T09:45:52Z Alestan: I know it is possible to implement syntax-rules via syntax-case.  Is it possible to go the other way?  Add syntax-case as a syntax-rule?
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2014-12-19T17:50:29Z turbofail: no, it's not
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2014-12-19T19:10:12Z Alestan: That's what I thought.  In other words I should have spent the time implementing syntax-case...
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2014-12-19T20:50:09Z adu: is anyone here familiar with SRFI-110?
2014-12-19T20:50:52Z adu: what's the difference between "a \\ b" and "a $ b"?
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2014-12-19T21:02:02Z ecraven: adu: I am not familiar, but after a very cursory reading, it seems \\ is a prefix operator, while $ is infix
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2014-12-19T21:11:09Z adu: ecraven: roughly yes, but there are definitions for \\ as infix and $ as postfix
2014-12-19T21:12:09Z adu: ecraven: and so "a \\ b c" appears to be defined as (a b c) and "a $ b c" appears to be defined as (a (b c)), but I'm not sure
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2014-12-19T21:43:28Z Alestan: Well, that was easier than I expected to upgrade syntax-rules to syntax-case.
2014-12-19T21:44:12Z vanila: What was your reason for that? I thought to prefer syntax-rules
2014-12-19T21:47:25Z Alestan: Well, syntax-rules can be implemented with syntax case (guile does it that way), which means there is little reason to provide syntax-rules as a primitive (other than possible performance reasons).  While I doubt I'll do much with syntax-case, having it allows me to provide let-syntax and other similar forms without having to provide native implementations of them.
2014-12-19T21:48:32Z vanila: are you writing a scheme compiler?
2014-12-19T21:49:43Z Alestan: Interpreter, in python.
2014-12-19T21:49:58Z vanila: cool
2014-12-19T21:50:08Z vanila: how do you actually implement the macro systems?
2014-12-19T21:55:00Z Alestan: Well, I'm using a stack separate from the python stack, so that I can directly manipulate it easily.  As the processor moves down the code, it checks if it is pointed to the first element of a list and if the first element is a macro (I implemented macros as first-class objects).  If it is a macro, it calls it with the remaining elements of the list as parameters.  Since it hasn't passed over those elements yet, they are still the symbols from the syntax p
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2014-12-19T21:56:57Z Alestan: I've always liked scheme, but been limited by the fact that it's standard library is somewhat light and most of what I do is in python for interoperability reasons.  The existing published scheme interpreters for python are very light; basically only what you get from the 'write yourself scheme in 48 hours' tutorial, so I decided to write my own.  I use it mostly for processing XML files and running user-submitted code (I have a sandbox version)
2014-12-19T21:56:59Z vanila: so is macroexpansion mixed in with regular execution?
2014-12-19T21:57:38Z Alestan: Yup, which isn't exactly optimal, but it was the easy way to do it.
2014-12-19T21:57:51Z vanila: that's pretty interesting, different from normal scheme
2014-12-19T21:58:36Z Alestan: Well, my thinking was that it is essentially how it works in the repl, other than macros being first-class.
2014-12-19T21:58:59Z Alestan: https://github.com/perkinslr/schemepy
2014-12-19T21:59:30Z vanila: normally all macros are fully expanded and then all execution is done
2014-12-19T22:00:24Z Alestan: Right, and there are likely to be potential differences.
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2014-12-19T22:00:46Z vanila: i wonder if it lets you do some stuff that wouldn't normally be possible
2014-12-19T22:01:03Z Alestan: But with the repl, it usually won't matter, since the code-compilation segments are so short.
2014-12-19T22:01:21Z Alestan: Um, there are some things that execute for me which generate errors in racket.
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2014-12-19T22:01:51Z Alestan: 'though I don't have all the explicit error checking implemented yet.
2014-12-19T22:02:40Z Alestan: So where the difference is going to be is with something like (let () (some-function) (some-macro))
2014-12-19T22:03:04Z Alestan: Normally (some-macro) would expand first and then (some-function) would execute; the order is reversed in this implementation.
2014-12-19T22:03:37Z Alestan: I may go back at some point and try walking the tree twice, once expanding macros and once evaluating code.
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2014-12-19T22:04:55Z Alestan: Also, since it is designed to interface with python code, I've followed python's convention on truth rather than scheme's.  I'll probably add a switch to make it follow scheme's rules on a per-file basis.
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2014-12-19T22:05:24Z vanila: nice work
2014-12-19T22:05:46Z Alestan: Oh, the other thing that prompted me to write my own was support for call/cc, which is missing except for escape-continuations in every python-scheme implementation.
2014-12-19T22:06:01Z Alestan: Because they all just use the python stack, and the python-stack doesn't allow call/cc...
2014-12-19T22:06:20Z vanila: the most annoying thing to me about python is they don't do proper tail recursion
2014-12-19T22:06:56Z Alestan: Yeah, stackless does, as can pypy, but cpython decided that the better quality stack traces is more important.
2014-12-19T22:07:58Z Alestan: That is one thing I'm still working on getting with this is full TCO, some of the forms still have to fire up a separate call to process, which means they wind up the stack even in a tail position.
2014-12-19T22:08:37Z vanila: it is a bit tricky to do
2014-12-19T22:08:54Z ijp: the thing is, when you have proper tail recursion, a full stack trace would be next to useless
2014-12-19T22:09:14Z Alestan: but most of the common ones I've got working properly, such that I've yet to have a MaximumRecursionDepth error except when I have something wrong in the python code
2014-12-19T22:10:19Z Alestan: Right, that was the opinion on the python mailing lists (circa 1999) when the idea of tail recursion was discussed.  It led to stackless python being created, which does full TCO and gives much abridged stack traces.
2014-12-19T22:11:14Z Alestan: That's the other thing I still need to implement is a stack-trace and debugging facility for this.  So far errors crash the interpreter and then I can poke at the stack to see what went wrong, but it doesn't give information on line numbers or anything useful that way.
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2014-12-19T22:19:29Z Alestan: So the mixed execution and first-class macros means you can do things like (define some-function (lambda () (set! some-macro (syntax-rules () ((some-macro) (+ 5 6)))))) (some-function) (some-macro)
2014-12-19T22:20:58Z ijp: which is why most people don't like them
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2014-12-19T22:29:35Z wasamasa: Alestan: have you considered using RPython to implement your scheme?
2014-12-19T22:30:18Z z0d: blasphemy!
2014-12-19T22:30:27Z z0d brings holy water
2014-12-19T22:30:35Z wasamasa: uh, he's already using python for it
2014-12-19T22:31:24Z wasamasa: I'm just asking whether he thought about using the base pypy is built upon which would mean a fast interpreter and TCO
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2014-12-19T22:35:08Z Alestan: Well, I've done some profiling and ported the slowest parts to cython, so it isn't terribly slow.  It also will run on pypy, but no I haven't ever worked with rpython before.
2014-12-19T22:35:21Z tadni_: I had no idea till last night SICP was pronounced "Sick Pea".
2014-12-19T22:35:29Z tadni_: I've always heard it as Sippy.
2014-12-19T22:35:49Z wasamasa is glad to speak a language where nobody minds you pronouncing each letter individually
2014-12-19T22:40:45Z Alestan: As for pypy helping with TCO, I believe using pypy in stackless mode would prevent the possibility of hitting the maximum recursion depth, but there is no reason from that to write the interpreter itself in rpython, since you get that advantage just from using stackless or pypy-stackless to call your script.
2014-12-19T22:43:44Z turbofail: well rpython would give you a JIT compiler too
2014-12-19T22:44:08Z turbofail: (not for free, but for way less than writing your own)
2014-12-19T22:45:21Z Alestan: True, but unless it could actually compile the scheme code into python or C, I doubt the advantages of a JIT would particularly apply.
2014-12-19T22:45:54Z turbofail: erm.  pypy will create a JIT that compiles scheme code into machine code
2014-12-19T22:46:04Z turbofail: and remove type checks and boxing for numeric operations
2014-12-19T22:47:21Z Alestan: You mean it would translate my scheme interpreter into machine code?  Or do you mean I could point it at somefile.scm and have it spit out machine code?
2014-12-19T22:47:56Z turbofail: you would point the pypy machinery at your intepreter, and it would spit out a jit that will be able to compile scheme code to efficient native code at run time
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2014-12-19T22:48:07Z turbofail: and do dynamic optimizations
2014-12-19T22:48:41Z turbofail: see https://github.com/pixie-lang/pixie for another lisp using the pypy stuff
2014-12-19T22:48:43Z Alestan: Ah, that may actually be worth it.
2014-12-19T22:50:41Z wasamasa: turbofail: fascinating
2014-12-19T22:51:02Z wasamasa: turbofail: I wondered whether there was anything else than trifle that managed to exploit rpython to its fullest
2014-12-19T22:51:08Z wasamasa: turbofail: looks like there is
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2014-12-19T22:54:18Z Alestan: So is there a good tutorial on writing something in rpython?
2014-12-19T22:54:44Z wasamasa: the pixie readme links one
2014-12-19T22:54:56Z wasamasa: I remember a different one (for a brainfuck interpreter?)
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2014-12-19T22:58:15Z Alestan: Yeah, I just found that one.
2014-12-19T22:58:15Z Alestan: http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2011/04/tutorial-writing-interpreter-with-pypy.html
2014-12-19T22:58:16Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/6aqqj56
2014-12-19T22:58:21Z wasamasa: yes, that one
2014-12-19T22:58:30Z wasamasa: could very well be out of date by now though
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2014-12-19T23:01:24Z Alestan: The rpython page on readthedocs has a decent explanation.
2014-12-19T23:02:16Z Alestan: I suppose the other question is how having it in rpython will impact passing between python and scheme.
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2014-12-19T23:32:08Z asumu: wasamasa: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/samth/pycket-draft.pdf is an RPython JIT compiler for Racket.
2014-12-19T23:32:28Z wasamasa: asumu: thanks
2014-12-19T23:33:50Z wasamasa: this is the first time I've seen my surname in a paper
2014-12-19T23:35:27Z tadni_: wasamasa: Which one are you?
2014-12-19T23:35:44Z wasamasa: tadni_: I'll leave that as an exercise for you
2014-12-19T23:36:09Z tadni_: wasamasa: Okay, Mr.Pape.
2014-12-19T23:36:30Z tadni_: That's your name now, don't wear it out.
2014-12-19T23:36:39Z wasamasa: lol
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2014-12-19T23:37:29Z tadni_ 's introductory paragraph is borderline insane for this SICP learning blog series.
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2014-12-19T23:38:05Z tadni_: I'm being purposely overdramatic, to not bore people at the very beginning.
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2014-12-19T23:38:42Z tadni_: wzsk: Wb. o/
2014-12-19T23:39:14Z wzsk: hi
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2014-12-19T23:41:23Z wasamasa: tadni_: I assume your blog is back up now?
2014-12-19T23:42:01Z tadni_: wasamasa: Nope, been actively working on it and everything though. My plan is to have everything up by the second of January.
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2014-12-19T23:53:52Z Alestan: Oof, looks like it'd be quite a bit of work to convert it to rpython; plus if it was compiled with rpython, it wouldn't easily be able to pass data between scheme and python.
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