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2014-12-10T00:48:37Z goglosh: what would be a good challenge to code in scheme?
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2014-12-10T00:54:08Z turbofail: a filesystem
2014-12-10T01:02:19Z pjb: goglosh: a whole capability based operating system.
2014-12-10T01:03:05Z pjb: with current hardware, you don't really need a file system. With capabilities, you can provide directories, and have the operating system manage the persistence, by using the RAM as a cache for the persistent memory devices.
2014-12-10T01:03:30Z pjb: see for example EROS (http://eros-os.org)
2014-12-10T01:04:04Z goglosh: woah
2014-12-10T01:04:16Z pjb: see http://wiki.osdev.org/Getting_Started for more information and resources about how to write an OS
2014-12-10T01:05:12Z pjb: for the challenging part, you will have to work on a scheme implementation, to be able to generate the code in the format required by the boot loader, to run in the initial modes of the processor, etc.
2014-12-10T01:06:51Z goglosh: I always wanted to see a Scheme-based OS
2014-12-10T01:06:52Z goglosh: but damn
2014-12-10T01:07:40Z pjb: It's not really that hard. You could have a look at Movitz, which is a CL implementation running on bare hardware (not an "OS" yet, but it could be a starting point).
2014-12-10T01:07:54Z pjb: http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/
2014-12-10T01:08:03Z goglosh: oh yeah I saw that once
2014-12-10T01:08:18Z goglosh: I actually wouldn't think anythying could be that hard done on scheme
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2014-12-10T01:08:58Z goglosh: but, well, an OS...
2014-12-10T01:09:34Z goglosh: I'd need to work hard on my C skills to get the implementation running
2014-12-10T01:09:41Z goglosh: the barebones
2014-12-10T01:10:07Z pjb: no no, you don't need C to write an OS at all.
2014-12-10T01:10:13Z goglosh: seriously?
2014-12-10T01:10:23Z goglosh: can it be done just with scheme? o.O
2014-12-10T01:10:29Z pjb: You don't even need C to write a unix system, a unix system has been written in Pascal once.
2014-12-10T01:10:32Z pjb: Yes.
2014-12-10T01:10:38Z goglosh: woah
2014-12-10T01:10:45Z goglosh: but.. wouldn't it be kinda slow?
2014-12-10T01:10:55Z goglosh: (like, a lot?)
2014-12-10T01:11:24Z pjb: You can write a LAP assembler in scheme, to generate the small routines that need have some specific constraints, like the boot loader, or the routines using the processor specific instructions to manipulate the processor state (priviledges, etc).
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2014-12-10T01:12:02Z pjb: And it wouldn't be slow at all; check http://cliki.net/Performance  you can obtain lisp program going faster than C or C++.
2014-12-10T01:12:23Z turbofail: there was dreamOS, which was written in a combination of scheme and an assembler-written-in-scheme
2014-12-10T01:12:26Z pjb: The latest example I have in mind is a HTTP server written in CL that is faster than any C web server.
2014-12-10T01:12:46Z turbofail: ran on bare metal, no C involved
2014-12-10T01:13:04Z turbofail: not sure where to find it these days though, the author's website is dead
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2014-12-10T01:13:37Z goglosh: damn
2014-12-10T01:13:44Z goglosh: sounds like a hell of a good project
2014-12-10T01:14:06Z pjb: One magical thing that you can do when you write an OS in a high level programming language, is to control the software using the language compiler.  If you can prove that your compiler will never generate "bad" code, then you can do away with a lot of features that unix had to implement because of C and assembler were used to write userland code.
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2014-12-10T01:15:06Z goglosh: like all the library interfacing, right?
2014-12-10T01:15:21Z pjb: Yes.
2014-12-10T01:15:38Z goglosh: well I could try and get a scheme optimizing compiler done on scheme
2014-12-10T01:15:54Z goglosh: I'd still have to learn about the macheen codes
2014-12-10T01:16:17Z pjb: goglosh: but before you start, you could watch: Alan Kay "Programming and Scaling" 2011 http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/14029/
2014-12-10T01:16:17Z pjb:  
2014-12-10T01:16:26Z pjb: (to the end)
2014-12-10T01:16:53Z pjb: goglosh: this should show you how you could even write seemingly "big" systems with relatively little code.
2014-12-10T01:17:52Z goglosh: I'll watch it
2014-12-10T01:18:58Z goglosh: but, in theory, if I can make an optimizing scheme->asm (no C in the middle) compiler, I could then use that to build any arbitrary system, right?
2014-12-10T01:20:35Z pjb: Yes.
2014-12-10T01:20:44Z pjb: I didn't mention it, because there are already such scheme implementations.
2014-12-10T01:21:18Z pjb: But I mentionned that you would have to touch it, because they may generate code that expect an underlying posix system (ie. libc).
2014-12-10T01:21:35Z goglosh: oh i see
2014-12-10T01:21:57Z pjb: For example, unix processus all manage the memory about the same way, with stack and heap, because there are some constraints given by the unix kernel.
2014-12-10T01:22:28Z pjb: If you write a new OS, the memory management can be different, and therefore the exact code generated can be different, the "ABI".
2014-12-10T01:22:47Z goglosh: sure
2014-12-10T01:22:58Z goglosh: the ideal thing would be to make a lisp-friendly ABI, right?
2014-12-10T01:23:14Z goglosh: kind of what a lisp-machine would do
2014-12-10T01:23:54Z pjb: eg. in the case of a capability based OS, and when the compiler ensures that no random pointers are possible, you can do without the separate memory spaces, which gives a whole different way to manage and share the memory between process and kernel and between processes.
2014-12-10T01:24:13Z pjb: Definitely, passing lisp typed objects would be natural.
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2014-12-10T01:25:03Z goglosh: shared spaces... as in DOS?
2014-12-10T01:25:09Z pjb: More like in emacs!
2014-12-10T01:25:27Z goglosh: haven't coded elisp
2014-12-10T01:25:37Z pjb: In emacs, you load tons of different software written by different people, and you never have any program overriding data from another.
2014-12-10T01:25:59Z goglosh: isn't that due to namespacing?
2014-12-10T01:26:01Z pjb: You can run a spreadsheet and a tetris, erc and gnus and w3m all applications in the same emacs process.
2014-12-10T01:26:08Z pjb: There's not even namespacing in emacs! :-)
2014-12-10T01:26:13Z goglosh: oh
2014-12-10T01:26:14Z pjb: No, this is because there are no random pointers.
2014-12-10T01:26:28Z goglosh: Oh I think I get it
2014-12-10T01:26:34Z goglosh: hmm
2014-12-10T01:26:35Z pjb: Of course, for security reasons, you'd want namespaces, managed by capabilities.
2014-12-10T01:26:35Z pjb:  
2014-12-10T01:27:01Z pjb: But this is orthogonal to the random pointer => separate memory space  problem.
2014-12-10T01:30:46Z goglosh: I... would have to do a lot of research
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2014-12-10T01:31:09Z pjb: You asked for a challenge :-)
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2014-12-10T01:31:13Z goglosh: lol
2014-12-10T01:31:15Z goglosh: yeah I did
2014-12-10T01:31:30Z goglosh: but I still don't quite get how memory would be managed at the low level
2014-12-10T01:32:17Z goglosh: I would REALLY need to study a lot of low-level stuff
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2014-12-10T01:34:08Z pjb: Well, assuming you want threads, and to run on a multi-core processor, you would already want to have a parallel garbage collector (perhaps even also a real-time GC).  This would help for the OS threads that will deal with devices (the device drivers).  You might want to be able to pin objects in RAM (so they're not moved by the GC, and not swapped out / flushed on persistent memory).  Therefore given that, you can use the normal sch
2014-12-10T01:34:08Z pjb: memory with this GC for both the kernel code and user code.
2014-12-10T01:34:31Z pjb: So yes, you'd have to read some papers about parallel GC and real-time GC.
2014-12-10T01:35:18Z goglosh: let's not push it
2014-12-10T01:35:39Z goglosh: I think the first thing would be to get some bootable code to run...
2014-12-10T01:35:47Z goglosh: good thing computers are simple at their core
2014-12-10T01:36:19Z pjb: Indeed, with current memory size, you can do a lot of things without a GC. Movitz hasn't any GC yet.
2014-12-10T01:39:40Z goglosh: hmmm I guess a pair of processor registers (like EAX and EBX) could serve as a cons-cell
2014-12-10T01:40:51Z goglosh: damn it ain't easy
2014-12-10T01:42:20Z pjb: That's a question for the compiler.  Once you have a compiler that can generate code that you can load with a boot loader, you will just write the OS in scheme without thinking about that.
2014-12-10T01:43:27Z pjb: Notice the power of the previous sentence.
2014-12-10T01:44:03Z pjb: It basically means that your OS will be even more portable than unix to different processors (as long as you have a compiler for the new processors).
2014-12-10T01:45:07Z goglosh: yeah actually the big job would be to design a low-level scheme for..well Scheme
2014-12-10T01:45:52Z goglosh: an implementation that runs directly on the metal
2014-12-10T01:46:01Z pjb: This has already been done too. cf. prescheme for example.
2014-12-10T01:46:07Z goglosh: prescheme?=
2014-12-10T01:46:11Z goglosh: Ima check that
2014-12-10T01:47:00Z pjb: But it is also possible to write a compiler for scheme targetting the bare hardware dirrectly.  It's basically a question of not using libc for library functions.
2014-12-10T01:47:19Z pjb: and instead to provide some primitive scheme functions to do the required low level stuff.
2014-12-10T01:47:52Z goglosh: sure
2014-12-10T01:48:17Z goglosh: it'd be a translation from cons-cells and primitive types to state machine instructions
2014-12-10T01:48:33Z goglosh: and that's where I get kind of lost
2014-12-10T01:48:49Z goglosh: well it's quite complex to think of
2014-12-10T01:48:54Z pjb: No, this is done by the compiler.
2014-12-10T01:49:14Z goglosh: but I'd make the compiler
2014-12-10T01:49:14Z pjb: The problem is the implementation if the display function.
2014-12-10T01:49:41Z pjb: display can be implemented in scheme by calling the write-char function with a port.
2014-12-10T01:50:02Z pjb: But to implement write-char and to implement ports, you will have to write "system code".
2014-12-10T01:50:52Z goglosh: heh yeah
2014-12-10T01:50:57Z pjb: You must decide how you create ports, what system notion there is behind (devices, capabilities, "files", etc), and with that, how write-char will be implemented ("syscall"? dispatch?) and ultimately, you will have to implement a device driver to send the bytes somewhere.
2014-12-10T01:51:12Z goglosh: well... I don't really know much
2014-12-10T01:51:24Z goglosh: but I remember once I did an x86 bootable code
2014-12-10T01:51:45Z goglosh: it was in 16-bit mode and it had bios calls to output text
2014-12-10T01:51:48Z pjb: And for device drivers, you might need either primitives to write at specific addresses (! kind of pointers), or specific I/O instructions (outb on x86).
2014-12-10T01:52:00Z goglosh: yeah, that'd be hell
2014-12-10T01:52:03Z goglosh: I guess
2014-12-10T01:52:16Z pjb: Those will have to be provided by the compiler, and the compiler will have to ensure that only authorised code can use them.
2014-12-10T01:52:32Z pjb: (only driver code can use them, not user programs).
2014-12-10T01:52:45Z goglosh: and as such the bulk of the job would be to make the compiler
2014-12-10T01:53:26Z pjb: It'd not be hell, because you'd be programming all that in scheme. So the only questions would be to understand and design the concepts and principles.
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2014-12-10T01:53:33Z goglosh: yeah
2014-12-10T01:53:56Z pjb: Well, watch the Alan Kay presentation.  You'd be making compilers (or DSL) all the time :-)
2014-12-10T01:54:04Z goglosh: :D
2014-12-10T01:54:10Z goglosh: yeah I'll do that and
2014-12-10T01:54:26Z goglosh: I guess I have a project now
2014-12-10T01:54:32Z goglosh: lets begin with a compiler
2014-12-10T01:54:42Z goglosh: a native-macheen-code compiler
2014-12-10T01:54:54Z pjb: Hey! Not necessarily even!
2014-12-10T01:55:24Z pjb: You could also have a byte code compiler, and write the VM in (a subset of) scheme, and then write a small compiler to translate the VM to native code.
2014-12-10T01:55:32Z pjb: cf. eg. Squeak.
2014-12-10T01:55:48Z pjb: http://www.squeak.org/
2014-12-10T01:55:48Z goglosh: dman
2014-12-10T01:55:49Z goglosh: damn
2014-12-10T01:56:03Z goglosh: sounds even better
2014-12-10T01:56:23Z pjb: Notice that x86 is actually a VM: modern Intel processors implement actually the x86 byte code into their own microcode.
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2014-12-10T01:56:54Z pjb: Well, it just makes it easier to port the system on a new processor.
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2014-12-10T01:58:11Z goglosh: indeed
2014-12-10T01:58:24Z goglosh: and it wouldn't really be too inefficient if well done
2014-12-10T01:58:37Z goglosh: damn now I won't be able to sleep for days
2014-12-10T01:59:12Z pjb: The UCSD p-system used a VM. It was written in Pascal with a compiler generating this p-code.  And it was quite usable, even on those old hardware of the 80s.
2014-12-10T02:02:16Z pjb: Also, even in OS compiled to native code, there are often little VM inside, eg. to implement device drivers.
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2014-12-10T02:04:27Z goglosh: my idea so far on the low-level version of scheme is
2014-12-10T02:04:44Z goglosh: to have doublewords for all types of data
2014-12-10T02:05:09Z goglosh: and a magic number (3 bits or so) to describe the datatype
2014-12-10T02:05:31Z goglosh: which would be either cons|num|char
2014-12-10T02:05:41Z pjb: Yes, that's usually something like that.
2014-12-10T02:06:19Z goglosh: oh and primite procedure types... yeah I think that accounts for a solid basis
2014-12-10T02:06:27Z goglosh: and a lot of bugs
2014-12-10T02:06:27Z goglosh: :P
2014-12-10T02:07:09Z pjb: There are alternatives.  For example, sometimes we allocate all the object of a given type in the same page.  This avoids having to have the tag.  So you have a page full of 32-bit fixnums, another page full of 64-bit floats, etc.  The first word of the page can be used to store the type, and you can obtain its address by masking the lower bits of the address of the object.
2014-12-10T02:07:44Z goglosh: yeah that's a good idea too
2014-12-10T02:07:46Z pjb: But in recent compilers, it's usual to put the tag with the pointer to the object or the value in the case of int or char.
2014-12-10T02:08:17Z goglosh: but... what about manifest typing?
2014-12-10T02:08:19Z pjb: Depends.  It means that when you have a record, you will have data stored in different pages.  It may be a problem on current hardware, with L1/L2-caches.
2014-12-10T02:08:41Z goglosh: that and it'd be hard to account for bignums
2014-12-10T02:09:03Z pjb: You could allocate a page for each bignum :-)
2014-12-10T02:09:52Z pjb: This is manifest typing since you get the tag by doing (deref (logand #xfffff000 address) 'tag)
2014-12-10T02:10:55Z goglosh: oooh I could just make every object an actual pointer with it's associated metadata
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2014-12-10T02:11:23Z goglosh: that'd solve the bignum problem *and* the header problem
2014-12-10T02:11:31Z goglosh: it'd allow for a sort of lazyness
2014-12-10T02:11:42Z goglosh gives pjb a cookie
2014-12-10T02:11:44Z pjb: If you're considering writing the compiler yourself, I'd advise: Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
2014-12-10T02:11:46Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/ytswyk
2014-12-10T02:12:00Z goglosh gives pjb a package for cookies
2014-12-10T02:12:06Z pjb: Thanks. :-)
2014-12-10T02:13:41Z goglosh: yeah the idea would be making the compiler myself, I am schemer because I like things from scratch :P
2014-12-10T02:14:23Z pjb: This is a very good book.
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2014-12-10T02:28:38Z goglosh: hmmm making a bytecode and a VM would indeed make things much easier, the VM would natively support the lisp objects
2014-12-10T02:28:47Z goglosh: and the bytecode could be a regular lisp bc
2014-12-10T02:29:28Z pjb: It makes no difference really. The compiler take charge of supporting the lisp objects.
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2014-12-10T02:30:50Z pjb: You have to understand that a compiler provides to the programmer a lisp virtual machine.  It can do that by using a so called "bytecode virtual machine" or a so called "native processor", but it's equivalent and irrelevant: you can build hardware to run the byte code directly, or your hardware could already be running the native code as a byte code (or not).
2014-12-10T02:31:56Z pjb: The point is that you want to write the OS using the lisp virtual machine provided by a scheme implementation.  With the constraint that this scheme implementation must let you run your OS program on a raw machine, loading it from a boot loader.
2014-12-10T02:32:34Z pjb: (and when I say raw machine, you could also choose to make it run in a Xen VM, so the raw machine would actually be a virtual machine running on a supervisor).
2014-12-10T02:32:43Z goglosh: lel
2014-12-10T02:32:53Z goglosh: a VM in a VM in a VM
2014-12-10T02:32:58Z goglosh: you know, the usual
2014-12-10T02:33:03Z pjb: Yes. Turing Machines.
2014-12-10T02:33:11Z goglosh: but yeah, I guess there's no difference really
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2014-12-10T02:33:46Z pjb: So the only thing, is that an OS needs to do some lowlevel stuff with the hardware, so the scheme implementation you use to compile the OS will have to provide the primitives to let the OS do those low level things.
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2014-12-10T02:34:42Z pjb: Like, perhaps, switching from the 16-bit mode to the 64-bit mode of an Intel processor, switching to a different ring, setting up and managing virtual memory tables, etc.
2014-12-10T02:34:59Z pjb: and accessing to I/O or memory mapped devices.
2014-12-10T02:35:11Z goglosh drools
2014-12-10T02:35:27Z pjb: Once you have that in the compiler, you can write your OS.
2014-12-10T02:35:42Z goglosh: and it'd be damn easier than doing it in C
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2014-12-10T03:07:58Z goglosh: I would need a stack for procedure calls...
2014-12-10T03:08:16Z pjb: Not necessarily.
2014-12-10T03:08:41Z pjb: I mean, it's not exactly a stack, and you don't have to use the processor stack.
2014-12-10T03:09:05Z goglosh: (define (foo x) (if (> x 0) (+ 1 (foo (- x 1)))))
2014-12-10T03:09:21Z pjb: Often the processor stack is also used by the processor to store some data, notably during trap and interuption processing.
2014-12-10T03:09:39Z pjb: Modern processors may also have a different stack for interruption processing
2014-12-10T03:10:19Z goglosh: um, the processor has a built-in stack? didn't know that :P
2014-12-10T03:10:42Z goglosh: anyway, I can't think of another way to deal with procedure calls
2014-12-10T03:10:44Z pjb: But in scheme you have closures and continuations, and they may escape the dynamic extent.  And you may want to implement multiple threads.  Therefore you should really consider whether it wouldn't be much better to put activation frames on the heap.
2014-12-10T03:11:08Z goglosh: hm
2014-12-10T03:11:29Z goglosh: continuations, yeah, that's an alternative of course... but...
2014-12-10T03:11:42Z pjb: The compiler is not forced to generate a JSR to call a function.  It can move the pc into a record on the heap, and JMP to the function.
2014-12-10T03:12:22Z goglosh: yeah you're right, I can just store the continuation like any other object
2014-12-10T03:12:32Z pjb: Well, it would be slower than a JSR, granted, so in the case where there's no continuation called in the function, you may still want to use a stack.
2014-12-10T03:12:34Z goglosh: I'm just not too used to conts
2014-12-10T03:12:54Z goglosh: can't it be done behind the camera?
2014-12-10T03:13:02Z goglosh: as a kernel feature?
2014-12-10T03:13:22Z pjb: But remember, I mention threads. That's because each thread needs a stack, and therefore you need to allocate stacks for each threads. When you expect a lot of threads, you can't have big stacks for all of them, therefore stack space for threads is generally quite limited.  This can be a problem.
2014-12-10T03:13:41Z pjb: It's a compiler problem.
2014-12-10T03:14:07Z goglosh: hmm
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2014-12-10T03:14:28Z goglosh: I guess I'll delegate threading to the kernel phase
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2014-12-10T03:15:16Z pjb: So for now, what I'm saying is that if you want a simple compiler, you might want to allocate everything on the heap, even activation frames, so that it will work easily even with closures and continuations.  But you may write a more sophisticated compiler doing more sophisticated code analyses to determine when you can optimize things and put them on the processor stack instead of the heap.
2014-12-10T03:15:46Z pjb: You can't really delegate that to the kernel: multi-threading has consequences on the language.
2014-12-10T03:16:22Z pjb: Or, you're doing a unix system with multiple processes and separate addressing spaces.  Then you've delegated multiprogramming to the kernel.
2014-12-10T03:16:29Z pjb: Unix is great!
2014-12-10T03:16:43Z pjb: Given the original constraints.
2014-12-10T03:17:44Z pjb: A good book to read too is the Unix Hater Handbook.
2014-12-10T03:18:01Z pjb: http://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf
2014-12-10T03:18:07Z goglosh: oh yeah the satanist bible
2014-12-10T03:18:10Z goglosh: :P
2014-12-10T03:18:59Z goglosh: father Ritchie will come and haunt me in my sleep
2014-12-10T03:19:04Z pjb: No, it's a discussion of the Lisp Machine vs. Unix philosophies.
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2014-12-10T03:59:11Z sheilong: I'm stuck on exercise 1.7 of SICP. If someone can help me understand what I'm doing wrong http://paste.lisp.org/display/144644
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2014-12-10T10:48:56Z taylanub: I wonder if there's been any attempts at standardizing record serialization yet?  given R7RS records, it should be simple... but OK, I see two alternatives already: strict: #record(<type> <value-list>) errors if type <type> hasn't been defined with the same number of fields as elements in <value-list>, and sets fields positionally.  loose: #record(<type> <alist>) sets fields by name and fills
2014-12-10T10:48:56Z taylanub: remaining fields with a parameterized default value
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2014-12-10T15:25:03Z snyp: (let+ ((arg1 arg2 ... . rest) lst) expr)
2014-12-10T15:25:14Z snyp: what does this pattern match?
2014-12-10T15:25:29Z taylanub: snyp: is that a syntax-rules pattern?
2014-12-10T15:25:33Z snyp: yes
2014-12-10T15:25:38Z LeoNerd: let+  ?
2014-12-10T15:25:42Z taylanub: looks broken or non-standard then
2014-12-10T15:25:48Z snyp: let+ is the name of the macro
2014-12-10T15:26:00Z taylanub: can you paste the whole code?
2014-12-10T15:26:01Z snyp: ignore let+
2014-12-10T15:26:09Z snyp: (_ ((arg1 arg2 ... . rest) lst) expr)
2014-12-10T15:26:16Z taylanub: (say on paste.lisp.org
2014-12-10T15:26:19Z taylanub: )
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2014-12-10T15:26:54Z taylanub: it could be that it uses '...' as an identifier or so; otherwise (foo ... . rest) should be invalid
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2014-12-10T15:27:04Z LeoNerd: I recall r6rs had some weird rules about ... . in patterns, but I didn't bother reading about it
2014-12-10T15:27:07Z LeoNerd: It seemed odd
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2014-12-10T15:27:53Z taylanub: hm, I might be wrong ...
2014-12-10T15:27:54Z snyp: wait a bit
2014-12-10T15:28:44Z taylanub: looks like (<pattern> ... <pattern> <ellipsis> <pattern> ... . <pattern>) is valid  (read "..." as meta-syntax here, where <ellipsis> are real "..." in the code)
2014-12-10T15:29:39Z snyp: it's from adventures of a pythonista in schemeland
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2014-12-10T15:30:35Z snyp: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=249681
2014-12-10T15:30:41Z snyp: the last section
2014-12-10T15:30:53Z snyp: "A list destructuring binding form (let+)"
2014-12-10T15:31:41Z snyp: he is using his own macro definers - def-syntax and syntax-match
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2014-12-10T15:31:57Z taylanub: I'm reading the R7RS page 23 right column trying to figure out whether it's supposed to match greedily, but can't tell.  I'd say it's most likely meant to match greedily, and you can just try it and see.
2014-12-10T15:32:10Z snyp: which are layers on the standard facilities i think
2014-12-10T15:32:28Z taylanub: it should be useful for things like ((foo) ... . rest), which could match ((x) (y) (z) a b c) where rest will be (a b c)
2014-12-10T15:32:53Z taylanub: but in your case I see no sense for it, since 'arg2 ...' will match the rest already and 'rest' will always be ()
2014-12-10T15:33:33Z snyp: he is definining a let+ form that assigns values to variables using pattern matching
2014-12-10T15:33:35Z snyp: (let+ ((x) '(1)) x)
2014-12-10T15:33:37Z snyp: x = 1
2014-12-10T15:33:50Z snyp: (let+ ((x y) (list 1 2)) (list x y))
2014-12-10T15:33:54Z snyp: x = 1 and y = 2
2014-12-10T15:34:56Z snyp: taylanub: arg1 seems to be a sublist
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2014-12-10T15:35:25Z taylanub: snyp: does this pattern appear in the template of another macro?  i.e. is there a macro generating macro in play?
2014-12-10T15:35:44Z snyp: taylanub: no, let+ is the main macro
2014-12-10T15:36:02Z taylanub: then from what I can tell 'rest' will always be ()
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2014-12-10T15:36:32Z snyp: how does the pattern arg1 arg2 ... . rest enforce arg1 to be a list ?
2014-12-10T15:37:00Z taylanub: snyp: this seems to be syntax-match not syntax-rules!
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2014-12-10T15:37:06Z snyp: taylanub: yes
2014-12-10T15:37:52Z snyp: his syntax-match macro
2014-12-10T15:37:54Z taylanub: then it might be declaring somewhere that 'arg2' should not just match anything, thus the 'arg2 ... . rest' would make sense
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2014-12-10T15:38:43Z taylanub: though I can't see it doing such a thing
2014-12-10T15:39:18Z taylanub: anyway, I don't know much about 'syntax-match' so I probably just don't understand
2014-12-10T15:40:53Z snyp: hmm.. it's ok.
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2014-12-10T16:41:04Z mlaine: hmm my sqrt program compiled (with gambit) is >5M
2014-12-10T16:41:09Z mlaine: how can that be?
2014-12-10T16:41:47Z mlaine: http://sprunge.us/dRjV?scm
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2014-12-10T16:53:37Z snyp: I am trying to understand macro expansion in general. The pattern (mm x y . rest) seems to match (mm 1 2 3) and rest is matched with (3)
2014-12-10T16:53:48Z snyp: (mm 1 2 3 4 5) and rest is (3 4 5)
2014-12-10T16:54:40Z snyp: so ". something" matches a list?
2014-12-10T16:54:58Z snyp: where can i get all the rules written?
2014-12-10T16:55:40Z snyp: uh
2014-12-10T16:55:47Z snyp: don't tell me
2014-12-10T16:56:04Z snyp: i've found it in my book
2014-12-10T16:57:10Z mario-goulart: snyp: remember that (1 2) is actually (1 . (2 . ())), or (1 . (2))
2014-12-10T16:59:00Z snyp: mario-goulart: yeah. i do. ok so TSPL mentions "nth cdr". Is that the tail of the list starting from the nth index?
2014-12-10T16:59:09Z snyp: assuming it's 0 based
2014-12-10T16:59:31Z snyp: what's the 3rd cdr of '(1 2 3 4 5) ?
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2014-12-10T17:00:18Z mario-goulart: What would be the first?
2014-12-10T17:00:35Z snyp: (2 3 4 5)
2014-12-10T17:00:42Z snyp: oh
2014-12-10T17:00:44Z snyp: i get it now
2014-12-10T17:00:48Z mario-goulart: :-)
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2014-12-10T17:22:11Z xyh: ^-^ http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html
2014-12-10T17:24:47Z xyh: any users of monofur ?
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2014-12-10T21:33:03Z offby1: *crickets*
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2014-12-10T21:43:43Z yiati: *leopards*
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2014-12-10T22:34:48Z offby1: really?  Where?
2014-12-10T22:36:27Z oleo: right behind you!
2014-12-10T22:36:28Z oleo: lol
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