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2014-12-02T00:04:36Z chaotic_good: hii deee hooo
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2014-12-02T00:06:54Z turbofail: hello gavino
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2014-12-02T00:08:02Z chaotic_good: say what?
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2014-12-02T00:12:44Z chaotic_good: web apps
2014-12-02T00:12:49Z chaotic_good: in scheme
2014-12-02T00:12:58Z chaotic_good: lets discusssss
2014-12-02T00:15:52Z chaotic_good: www.aidaweb.si  redone in scheme?
2014-12-02T00:16:05Z chaotic_good: prevayler backend data store
2014-12-02T00:16:15Z chaotic_good: like happstack.com
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2014-12-02T01:01:42Z TheCommieDuck: Hey; if I have a (mutable) cyclic s-exp..is there some way to split it to say 'car is X, cdr is Y; X has car X1 and cdr X2; Y is atomic; X1 has car X, cdr X' or whatever? The only ways I can think would be to traverse the expression depth-first, but it's going to be cyclic.
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2014-12-02T01:05:19Z vraid: TheCommieDuck: s-expressions are non-cyclic, but anyway, could you explain in more detail what you're trying to do?
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2014-12-02T01:06:00Z TheCommieDuck: vraid: Oh, my bad..is there some term for mutable expressions (i.e. set-car!/set-mcar!) then?
2014-12-02T01:06:21Z TheCommieDuck: er...cyclic expressions via set-car/set-mcar
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2014-12-02T01:07:51Z vraid: well.. cyclic list
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2014-12-02T01:08:57Z vraid: TheCommieDuck: ah, i see. you want to traverse or display it?
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2014-12-02T01:10:00Z vraid: the most straightforward way is to track which nodes you have visited already
2014-12-02T01:10:47Z TheCommieDuck: basically put the task is to be given some expression and produce a program that evaluates to that expression; however much googling around seems to produce little..I figured that if I can decompose it to that sort of association, it wouldn't be difficult to produce a list of set-car/set-cdrs. which is the given example.
2014-12-02T01:11:04Z TheCommieDuck: http://puu.sh/ddrL4/81f830db0f.png
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2014-12-02T01:22:57Z TheCommieDuck: I'll go for graph-search on it, thanks :P
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2014-12-02T02:23:39Z asumu: ska-fan: thanks
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2014-12-02T08:21:58Z taylanub: vraid: s-expressions sometimes (including in R7RS) support datum labels for recursion, like #1=(foo bar . #1#) => (foo bar foo bar foo bar ...)
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2014-12-02T16:20:36Z cky: taylanub: It's not "recursion" as such, but shared data.
2014-12-02T16:21:10Z cky: Although a common use for shared data is for circular lists, you can use shared data for finite data structures too.
2014-12-02T16:21:46Z cky: rudybot: (define foo (call-with-input-string "(#0=(foo bar) #0# #0#)" read))
2014-12-02T16:21:47Z rudybot: cky: your sandbox is ready
2014-12-02T16:21:47Z rudybot: cky: Done.
2014-12-02T16:21:58Z cky: rudybot: (eq? (car foo) (cadr foo))
2014-12-02T16:21:58Z rudybot: cky: ; Value: #t
2014-12-02T16:22:15Z cky: rudybot: foo
2014-12-02T16:22:15Z rudybot: cky: ; Value: '((foo bar) (foo bar) (foo bar))
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2014-12-02T16:27:28Z taylanub: cky: well, the '(foo . (bar . <>))' structure recurs, hence recursion :)
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2014-12-02T17:01:35Z theseb: is the ONLY difference between dynamic and lexical scoping that for lexical the lambda functions drag around the environment at the time of creation?
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2014-12-02T17:05:03Z vraid: theseb: no.. in dynamic scoping, functions will use the environment from where they are called
2014-12-02T17:06:14Z drdanmaku: isn't that implied by not capturing the environment at the creation site of the function?
2014-12-02T17:06:26Z drdanmaku: there's no other environment to use
2014-12-02T17:06:44Z vraid: hmm.. perhaps
2014-12-02T17:07:52Z theseb: vraid: yea..my point is both defs have to do with differences in environments only
2014-12-02T17:08:16Z theseb: vraid: one uses current env...other uses env at time of creation....i can't see anything else
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2014-12-02T17:10:59Z taylanub: theseb: yeah, one use the "static (lexical) environment" the other the "dynamic environment"
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2014-12-02T17:19:25Z cky: theseb: It's more than that. With dynamic scoping, each time you use `let` or function calls or the like, it has to save the original value of the variable, and restore it upon exit.
2014-12-02T17:19:57Z cky: So each variable essentially has a "stack of values".
2014-12-02T17:20:14Z cky: and the top of the stack is the current value.
2014-12-02T17:20:28Z LeoNerd: Isn't that  fluid-let  ?
2014-12-02T17:20:47Z taylanub: fluid-let implements dynamic binding, yes
2014-12-02T17:21:15Z cky: theseb: Have you ever played with Perl? Do you understand the difference between `my` and `local`?
2014-12-02T17:21:36Z cky: theseb: `my` creates a lexically-scoped variable, and `local` sets up dynamic scoping for the variable.
2014-12-02T17:22:34Z cky: This is why if you want to override, say, `$\` temporarily, you'd use `local` to do it, and not `my` (which would create a new variable called `$\` and not cause the desired overriding effect).
2014-12-02T17:22:34Z theseb: cky: i'm a big python man
2014-12-02T17:22:44Z cky: theseb: Too bad, I don't think Python has dynamic scoping. :-P
2014-12-02T17:23:39Z LeoNerd: It doesn't, no
2014-12-02T17:24:07Z LeoNerd: Causes me much annoyance every time I have to write   foo_save = foo; try: foo = new_value; do a thing();  finally: foo = foo_save
2014-12-02T17:24:18Z LeoNerd: Especially things like loglevels during small calls I'm trying to debug
2014-12-02T17:24:21Z cky: theseb: With lexical scoping, you're creating new variables. With dynamic scoping, you're reusing existing (global) variables, with a value stack that gets popped when you exit the "scope".
2014-12-02T17:24:42Z theseb: cky: thanks.
2014-12-02T17:24:53Z cky: :-)
2014-12-02T17:25:14Z LeoNerd: { local $logger->loglevel = LOG_DEBUG; do_a_thing() }   # old log-level is restored here
2014-12-02T17:25:26Z cky: LeoNerd: :-D
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2014-12-02T17:25:59Z cky: LeoNerd: I actually like Perl a lot, even though lots of people like to hate on it.
2014-12-02T17:26:23Z cky: Ditto with C++, especially C++11 onwards.
2014-12-02T17:27:32Z cky: As would be expected, both Perl and C++ are in my top tags on Stack Overflow: http://careers.stackoverflow.com/cky :-)
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2014-12-02T18:34:13Z snyp: So I am following through a series of scheme articles, "Adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland", and the author has created his own macros, and I am trying to load the code into the Guile repl, but it says that the 'andmap' is an unbound variable.. so what is andmap?
2014-12-02T18:34:58Z snyp: http://paste.debian.net/134631/ line 48
2014-12-02T18:35:52Z snyp: He mentions this is R6RS compliant... so I guess it should work in guile
2014-12-02T18:37:57Z theseb: snyp: i'm a big python guy that is dabbling in lisp too
2014-12-02T18:38:01Z theseb: i'll take a look
2014-12-02T18:38:38Z cky: snyp: You can use `every` from (srfi srfi-1).
2014-12-02T18:38:45Z cky: snyp: It work the same way as `andmap`.
2014-12-02T18:39:03Z theseb: snyp: wow...too advanced for me
2014-12-02T18:39:37Z snyp: cky: can you modify the code and make it work in guile?
2014-12-02T18:39:46Z cky: Although, that code has some Racketisms in it, like define-for-syntax.
2014-12-02T18:40:51Z cky: snyp: Yes, it looks simple enough, in theory.
2014-12-02T18:41:00Z cky: Lemme try.
2014-12-02T18:41:11Z snyp: thanks
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2014-12-02T18:42:12Z snyp: ah andmap is fold with and http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8231383/andmap-ormap-chez-scheme
2014-12-02T18:42:35Z cky: snyp: Hence, `every`.
2014-12-02T18:42:46Z snyp: yeah
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2014-12-02T18:44:31Z snyp: however there seem to be other problems with the code too, guile is showing
2014-12-02T18:44:51Z cky: snyp: I told you that code snippet has some Racket-specific things in it. :-)
2014-12-02T18:44:58Z snyp: i see
2014-12-02T18:45:34Z cky: snyp: It's easy to port to Guile, but it won't be a straight cut-and-paste.
2014-12-02T18:46:01Z snyp: i see
2014-12-02T18:48:33Z snyp: you don't HAVE to do it for me if it's too non-trivial and uninteresting. i will just read the article then for now and learn the standard syntax-case stuff directly.
2014-12-02T18:51:17Z cky: I'm done, just testing it now.
2014-12-02T18:51:45Z snyp: cool
2014-12-02T18:53:07Z cky: snyp: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/644bc94824b2cb31c491
2014-12-02T18:54:26Z snyp: working!!
2014-12-02T18:54:33Z snyp: thanks a lot cky
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2014-12-02T18:55:47Z cky: snyp: :-D
2014-12-02T18:57:09Z snyp: cky: aww, it loads ok, but it says syntax-object->datum is unbound
2014-12-02T18:57:14Z snyp: lol
2014-12-02T18:58:16Z snyp: cky: i searched in guile manual. there's a function syntax->datum
2014-12-02T18:58:29Z snyp: that might be it
2014-12-02T18:58:33Z cky: It is.
2014-12-02T18:58:47Z cky: Lemme update the gist with that.
2014-12-02T19:00:17Z cky: snyp: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/dea00d72580ef6f868a9
2014-12-02T19:00:39Z cky: Apparently Gists can't be edited if posted anonymously, and it's not my code so I don't want to attach it to my GitHub account.
2014-12-02T19:00:49Z cky: So I had to create a new Gist. :-P
2014-12-02T19:01:20Z snyp: ah
2014-12-02T19:03:31Z snyp: aww yesss working now.
2014-12-02T19:03:36Z snyp: thanks cky. :)
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2014-12-02T21:32:01Z t10: is the recommended way to learn scheme still htdp -> sicp, or has something new come along since then?
2014-12-02T21:33:25Z stamourv: t10: I'd recommend HTDP (2nd edition, falling back to 1st for the parts that haven't been written yet), then PLAI.
2014-12-02T21:33:40Z stamourv: The latter is more about learning programming languages than about Scheme per se.
2014-12-02T21:35:16Z t10: stamourv, thanks, I'll look into it :)
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2014-12-02T21:35:53Z taylanub: t10: note that those are not actually for learning Scheme specifically...  regarding Scheme specific things, there's The Little Schemer and The Seasoned Schemer; don't know about others.
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2014-12-02T21:52:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: I find SICP to be a very good book about thinking in abstractions.
2014-12-02T21:52:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: But not a book to learn scheme specifically.
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2014-12-02T23:23:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: I mostly use CL but dip into Scheme on occasion. Is there anything technically wrong with constructing a loop macro using recursion?
2014-12-02T23:26:07Z cojy: how else would you do it?
2014-12-02T23:26:14Z cojy: and no
2014-12-02T23:28:19Z Pixel_Outlaw: The impression I've gotten is that recursion is preferred. I just wanted to make sure that iteration via a loop like macro was not dangerous in design.
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2014-12-02T23:30:44Z turbofail: scheme already ships with some loop-like macros, such as `do'
2014-12-02T23:31:37Z turbofail: racket has an extensive and extensible looping facility with its various `for' macros
2014-12-02T23:34:04Z turbofail: then there's foof-loop and other things.  basically recursion is only preferred if it happens to be the clearest way to express whatever you're doing, and important for if you want to implement your own looping constructs
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2014-12-02T23:43:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: Oh ok thanks turbofail
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2014-12-02T23:44:23Z Pixel_Outlaw: Just wanted to make sure it woun't expand into 10,000 lines of macro internally.
2014-12-02T23:44:47Z turbofail: oh it very well might
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2014-12-02T23:56:12Z mdibound: I have the function (define (driver expr input l)     and when I call (driver expression (get-input) '() )    where (get-input) is another function, I get Error: function driver has been called with 2 arguments, it requires 3 arguments.... but I gave it three arguments!!
2014-12-02T23:57:22Z cojy: would need to see the source to be able to help then
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