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2014-11-28T16:29:30Z _theseb: if you didn't have the begin special form is there another way to combine multiple sexps into one?
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2014-11-28T16:30:20Z stamourv: _theseb: You are confusing sexps and expressions.
2014-11-28T16:30:40Z stamourv: What `begin` does is sequencing expressions, so they are evaluated one after the other.
2014-11-28T16:30:53Z stamourv: And yes, you can do that without `begin`.
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2014-11-28T16:32:43Z stamourv: rudybot: ((lambda (f) (displayln "doing this") (f)) (lambda () (displayln "and that!")))
2014-11-28T16:32:43Z rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
2014-11-28T16:32:43Z rudybot: stamourv: ; stdout: "doing this\nand that!\n"
2014-11-28T16:33:08Z stamourv: Or even easier:
2014-11-28T16:33:40Z stamourv: rudybot: ((lambda (x y z) #f) (displayln "doing") (displayln 3) (displayln "things"))
2014-11-28T16:33:41Z rudybot: stamourv: ; Value: #f
2014-11-28T16:33:42Z rudybot: stamourv: ; stdout: "doing\n3\nthings\n"
2014-11-28T16:34:28Z stamourv: _theseb: Scheme does not specify the order in which arguments should be evaluated, so the latter is a bit brittle.
2014-11-28T16:34:32Z stamourv: Racket, on the other hand, does.
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2014-11-28T16:41:48Z theseb: stamourv: any way to simulate "begin special form" if lambda function invocations can only evaluate one expression?
2014-11-28T16:42:09Z theseb: stamourv: your example had 2 expressions in the 1st lambda
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2014-11-28T16:43:21Z stamourv: theseb: Sure, just use arguments.
2014-11-28T16:43:39Z stamourv: You don't even need to use their value, see the second example.
2014-11-28T16:48:28Z theseb: stamourv: oh hell...that's genius!
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2014-11-28T16:49:00Z theseb: stamourv: you used a lambda just to eval the arguments! i like it
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2014-11-28T16:57:56Z theseb: can essentially every lisp program be written to not use state? i.e. rewritten in "functional style" ?  i'm basically trying to see if STATE is a convience or a necessity to programming in general..
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2014-11-28T16:59:23Z offby1: of course not
2014-11-28T16:59:52Z offby1: some -- perhaps most --program's whole purpose in life is to maintain state
2014-11-28T17:00:31Z theseb: offby1: sure..a program that has state of course can't be written w/o state
2014-11-28T17:00:35Z offby1: the thing about functional programming is that there are more places than you'd expect, where you don't need state, and where, in fact, maintaining state turns out to be trouble.
2014-11-28T17:00:42Z offby1: But that doesn't mean that all state is worthless.
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2014-11-28T17:01:40Z theseb: offby1: what got me thinking is Paul Graham's Roots of Lisp paper....his (and McCarthy's) original lisp did NOT have mutation or state!
2014-11-28T17:02:07Z theseb: offby1: furthermore ..lambda calculus does not have state so there's a interesting point here somewhere
2014-11-28T17:02:22Z offby1: lambda calculus wasn't invented to solve problems in the real world, as far as I know.
2014-11-28T17:02:34Z offby1: McCarthy's original lisp didn't have set or setq?  That's surprising
2014-11-28T17:02:43Z theseb: offby1: they are Turing Complete!
2014-11-28T17:03:02Z theseb: offby1: so technically ANY function in any language can be done in lambda calculus
2014-11-28T17:03:03Z scoofy: compiling functional programs is making them have 'state'
2014-11-28T17:03:23Z theseb: scoofy: please elaborate
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2014-11-28T17:04:04Z scoofy: when you want to compile a functional program that has no state, you have to turn it into a series of 'steps', each of which has a state and relies on the state of the previous step
2014-11-28T17:04:58Z offby1: that went entirely over my head
2014-11-28T17:05:04Z scoofy: this is a functional program with no state: (* (+ a b) (- a b))
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2014-11-28T17:05:23Z offby1: sure
2014-11-28T17:05:28Z scoofy: when compiled (=translated to machine instructions), it translates to operands for a machine that has state (memory, registers, flags etc.)
2014-11-28T17:05:37Z offby1: oh but that's not interesting to me
2014-11-28T17:05:46Z theseb: scoofy: but that's just implementation ....a compiler in principle could "compile" to a machine that didn't use state
2014-11-28T17:05:49Z offby1: what's interesting to me is: is it easy to understand what a function does, by looking at its source code
2014-11-28T17:05:50Z scoofy: ok, just saying that there's a mapping between functional programs --> programs with state
2014-11-28T17:06:00Z theseb: scoofy: not THAT is a good point
2014-11-28T17:06:07Z theseb: scoofy: s/not/now
2014-11-28T17:06:12Z offby1: Not That There's Anything Wrong With That™
2014-11-28T17:06:12Z scoofy: theseb, exactly. 'in princpile', such machine *could* exist. they just, don't.
2014-11-28T17:06:20Z scoofy: except maybe lisp machines of the past...
2014-11-28T17:06:24Z theseb: scoofy: you seem to be implying there is a 1 to 1 mapping between FP and stateful programs
2014-11-28T17:06:46Z scoofy: there's not necessarily always one. for example, for self-modifying programs you cannot easily do such mapping.
2014-11-28T17:07:23Z scoofy: so only a certain subset of functional programs compiles easily to a procedural program that is a set of instrucitons
2014-11-28T17:07:47Z scoofy: but, eventually, everything can be calculated, so... finding a mapping just becomes harder and harder
2014-11-28T17:08:45Z theseb: scoofy: fascinating...so state really is in many situations just a "convenience"
2014-11-28T17:09:00Z theseb: scoofy: in my limited understanding...stateless programming is great for parallelism....so i thought in future where we all have massive multicore PCs we'll want FP
2014-11-28T17:09:14Z scoofy: indeed true. 'dataflow programming' is a good theory.
2014-11-28T17:09:22Z offby1: in my understanding, stateless programming is great if you want people to be able to understand your code.
2014-11-28T17:09:24Z scoofy: feel free to research if interested in 'stateless parallel programming'
2014-11-28T17:10:48Z stamourv: theseb: In programming, everything is a "convenience".
2014-11-28T17:11:07Z offby1: naw, Windows is more of a pain in the butt
2014-11-28T17:11:14Z stamourv: theseb: That's what makes programming different from theory of computation.
2014-11-28T17:11:58Z stamourv: theseb: If you're looking for minimal models, look at Turing machines, lambda calculi, combinator calculi, etc.
2014-11-28T17:12:27Z stamourv: theseb: But it turns out, those are not suitable for programming, hence the "convenicences".
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2014-11-28T17:39:23Z gnomon: Riastradh, what in the world is PoC||GTFO?
2014-11-28T17:46:16Z offby1: gnomon: I have this in my .emacs: ;; perl-mode sucks.  cperl-mode doesn't.
2014-11-28T17:46:17Z offby1: (defun perl-mode () (interactive) (error "cperl or gtfo"))
2014-11-28T17:46:29Z offby1: gnomon: so I'm guessing it's similar
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2014-11-28T17:51:25Z gnomon: offby1, curl -H 'Range: bytes=298-700' http://mumble.net/~campbell/blag.txt
2014-11-28T17:52:22Z offby1: he make joke
2014-11-28T17:52:28Z offby1 didn't know about "Range:"
2014-11-28T17:52:37Z offby1: and I call myself a web programmer
2014-11-28T17:52:42Z gnomon: offby1, he make joke with 97MiB PDF-format punchline
2014-11-28T17:53:11Z offby1: we going out on that joke?  No, we do reprise of song.  That help.  But not much, no.
2014-11-28T17:54:10Z gnomon: offby1, heh, I've got an awkward kind of indexing thing based on Range: headers for indexing updates Riastradh makes to his blag.txt.  I assume the header is fixed-size and that updates are appended after the header and before the most recent update, so it counts backwards from the full file length minus the known/assumed header length...  I probably overthought it.
2014-11-28T17:54:55Z offby1: https://crashlanden.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/fantastic-mr-fox5.jpg
2014-11-28T17:55:16Z gnomon is completely lost
2014-11-28T17:55:31Z gnomon: Fortunately this is a state not entirely unfamiliar to me.
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2014-11-28T17:57:12Z offby1: that's a picture of the badger from the movie "The Fantastic Mr Fox" (which I loved).  The badger is sort of dim.  He often has a brain-freeze, whenever anyone says anything at all complex to him.
2014-11-28T17:57:25Z offby1: That's a picture of a brain freeze.  His eyes get all peppermint-swirly.
2014-11-28T17:57:30Z offby1: I strongly identify with that picture
2014-11-28T17:57:34Z offby1: As does Mrs Offby1
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2014-11-28T18:00:10Z gnomon: offby1, I watched that movie and greatly enjoyed it, but I completely forgot about the badger.  I am going to have to watch it again.  Thank you for the prompting!  No doubt I will enjoy it even more a second time.
2014-11-28T18:00:58Z offby1: we're fairly big Wes Anderson fans here at Chez Offby1, but we've actually only seen a few of them
2014-11-28T18:06:00Z gnomon: offby1, what did you think of The Grand Budapest Hotel?
2014-11-28T18:06:07Z offby1: loved loved loved it
2014-11-28T18:06:11Z offby1: only seen it twice though!
2014-11-28T18:06:23Z offby1: fave is probably either Rushmore or Moonrise Kingdom
2014-11-28T18:06:55Z offby1: Oddly, despite adoring Gene Hackman, I couldn't watch The Royal Tenenbaums.  Too sour.  Ought to try it again sometime
2014-11-28T18:07:02Z gnomon: Moonrise Kingdom is at the top of the stack right now for me, though I think that's likely just because I've got the soundtrack queued up rather often.
2014-11-28T18:07:15Z gnomon: Hmm, good point, I haven't watched that one in ages either.
2014-11-28T18:07:34Z offby1: Liked The Djareeling Limited but wasn't crazy about it.
2014-11-28T18:07:41Z offby1: Gotta admire Adrian Brody's schnozz, though
2014-11-28T18:07:43Z gnomon: And I was all set to make a run out to $SHINY_DISC_STORE tonight, too.  That visit sounds like it might get dangerously expensive now.
2014-11-28T18:07:46Z offby1: it's Olympian
2014-11-28T18:08:09Z offby1: I was astonished to find that our local $SHINY_DISC_STORE, which I last visited 15 years ago, is still in business.  Who knew?
2014-11-28T18:08:25Z gnomon: I haven't watched Darjeeling yet.  Does Brody's shnozz hold a candle to Dépardieux's in Cyrano de Bergerac?
2014-11-28T18:08:57Z offby1: hm, now, that's a good comparison.
2014-11-28T18:09:21Z offby1: Yes, it holds a candle; but is still smaller.  (And I suspect that Mr Dépardieux may have had some prosthetic help)
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2014-11-28T18:31:41Z TheCommieDuck: Hey; http://paste.lisp.org/display/144522 I have this for a union of 2 sets (as flat lists), but it seems to fail if s1 intersection s2 is not empty..which would just call set-union (cdr s1) s2, which seems fine. Am I missing something here?
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2014-11-28T18:35:04Z TheCommieDuck: ...I forgot an else. I'm dumb.
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2014-11-28T20:30:31Z theseb: stamourv: ping
2014-11-28T20:32:00Z stamourv: theseb: pong
2014-11-28T20:33:14Z theseb: stamourv: i was just curious (and amazed) how you knew that trick to emulate a begin special form with ( (lambda a b c d #f) e1 e2 e3 e4)....
2014-11-28T20:33:38Z theseb: stamourv: the only way you'd know that is if you had spent time thinking deeply about what forms are critical and which are optional like i'm trying to do
2014-11-28T20:33:52Z theseb: stamourv: didn't you say you're a teacher with Racket program?
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2014-11-28T20:35:40Z stamourv: theseb: That's just a standard trick that you can use to, e.g., make your compiler simpler. Not sure where I got it.
2014-11-28T20:36:08Z stamourv: theseb: I vut my teeth on compilers with Marc Feeley, could have gotten it from him.
2014-11-28T20:36:13Z stamourv: s/vut/cut/
2014-11-28T20:36:58Z stamourv: theseb: Can't say I spent much time thinking about minimalism and stuff. As I said earlier, this is irrelevant for programming, and is best left to theory of computation folks. Which I am not.
2014-11-28T20:37:54Z stamourv: theseb: So try having a look at theory of computation, you may enjoy it. Just don't confuse it with programming. :)
2014-11-28T20:38:06Z theseb: stamourv: yea...see that was another clever thing you said...distinguishing between computation theory and programming
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2014-11-28T20:38:44Z stamourv: theseb: As for teaching, I've taught HTDP in the past, yes. I haven't taught in some time, now mostly doing research and some Racket development.
2014-11-28T20:39:28Z stamourv: theseb: Programming and theory of computation are both important aspects of computer science. They are related, but it's important to understand that they have different goals.
2014-11-28T20:39:34Z theseb: yes
2014-11-28T20:39:46Z stamourv: theseb: If you get the chance, I recommend taking classes in both.
2014-11-28T20:40:27Z theseb: i have HtDP on my desk now..meaning to read it
2014-11-28T20:40:30Z theseb: i love SICP too
2014-11-28T20:41:34Z stamourv: I much prefer HTDP. It actually explains things and provides general principles, instead of throwing a bunch of examples at you and expecting you to infer the rest.
2014-11-28T20:42:13Z theseb: stamourv: yea...the criticism i heard is that SICP expects you to learn how to program on your own whereas HtDP teaches you..er...well.. how to actually *design* programs
2014-11-28T20:42:58Z theseb: stamourv: does HtDP break things down and analyze them as deeply as SICP?
2014-11-28T20:42:58Z stamourv: Right. HTDP is much more explicit about it, which (IME) makes it a lot more approachable for more students.
2014-11-28T20:43:16Z theseb: that is what is unique to SICP.....they teach you to understand the core of CS instead of just teaching a language
2014-11-28T20:43:19Z stamourv: What it does cover, it covers deeply.
2014-11-28T20:44:17Z theseb: sadly SICP is too much for a high school student or even most college freshmen perhaps....maybe what world needs is a "SICP-lite" combined with design princples of HtDP
2014-11-28T20:44:22Z stamourv: SICP covers a wider variety of topics, but not very deeply. The assortment of topics is odd, and some of it clings to notions that have been discredited since the 70s.
2014-11-28T20:45:10Z stamourv: If you want to learn about programming, pick up a programming book (e.g. HTDP). If you want to learn about languages, pick up a book about languages (e.g. PLAI, EOPL). Trying to do both at the same time is questionable.
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2014-11-28T20:45:30Z theseb: stamourv: i love python but I love how minimal and simple core of lisp is......dunno what your classes were like but students can start making programs with minimal lecturing on what s-exprs are
2014-11-28T20:45:38Z stamourv: Re teaching CS vs a language: Yes, SICP does that, but it's by no means unique. HTDP does the same.
2014-11-28T20:46:25Z stamourv: Re too much: As I said, it's because it's trying to do too many things at once, and ends up both being confusing and covering things poorly.
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2014-11-28T20:47:06Z theseb: stamourv: sadly i like both lisp and python for teaching......i wonder if a winning class would start with a minimal intro to lisp and then later move to python
2014-11-28T20:47:26Z theseb: stamourv: a big question mark for me is how to segway from lisp to python atm
2014-11-28T20:47:53Z theseb: segue*
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2014-11-28T20:48:12Z stamourv: Just curious, what's your teaching experience?
2014-11-28T20:48:37Z theseb: i'm a physics and math teacher at community college and to homeschoolers
2014-11-28T20:48:46Z theseb: actually just physics at comm coll
2014-11-28T20:49:11Z theseb: mainly dabble in physics , math and programming for homeschoolers
2014-11-28T20:49:12Z stamourv: I like the curriculum we have at NEU, where the first course is HTDP and the second is using similar concepts, but in Java (introducing syntax, types, mutation, indexing, etc.).
2014-11-28T20:49:47Z theseb: stamourv: yea..that's how AP Comp Sci is structured in high school....1st sem is scheme and 2nd sem hits java hard for the spring exam
2014-11-28T20:50:11Z stamourv: That gives students exposure to most of the concepts they'll encounter while programming, which means they can pick up, e.g., python, quite easily.
2014-11-28T20:50:13Z theseb: stamourv: dunno if it would help to shove python in between scheme and java in an AP CS course
2014-11-28T20:50:19Z stamourv: So no need to teach it explicitly.
2014-11-28T20:50:21Z theseb: of one year duration
2014-11-28T20:51:26Z stamourv: I don't see how that would help. Python doesn't have anything that the other two don't.
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2014-11-28T20:51:45Z stamourv: And is fairly dain-bramaged in many ways, which makes it a bad choice for teaching.
2014-11-28T20:53:18Z theseb: stamourv: 1. Isn't it quite a culture shock to move from scheme to Java? 2. How is python brain damaged? just curious
2014-11-28T20:53:49Z theseb: i'm honestly on the fence about scheme vs. python....furthermore,, i hear arguments for both so confused
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2014-11-28T20:54:09Z theseb: both have their pros and cons
2014-11-28T20:54:54Z MichaelRaskin: \\\\
2014-11-28T20:54:57Z stamourv: Re culture shock: That's the point. Expose students to something different. But since the core ideas of the two courses are the same (e.g. the design recipe) students are not lost at sea.
2014-11-28T20:56:13Z theseb: stamourv: yea......i think i prefer scheme.....sadly i heard python is now #1 teaching language at major USA universities...so that makes me think they must know something i don't
2014-11-28T20:56:22Z stamourv: Re python: The language is a collection of special cases and exceptions. This makes learning it mostly about learning various bits of trivia and specificities.
2014-11-28T20:56:38Z theseb: stamourv: i agree with your point about python not having a clean core
2014-11-28T20:56:45Z stamourv: All of this gets in the way of teaching general principles that apply beyond the language.
2014-11-28T20:57:00Z scoofy: python has too much ___ for my liking. not clean design enough
2014-11-28T20:57:13Z stamourv: Re knowing something that you don't: I doubt it. They're going with what's fashionable.
2014-11-28T20:57:21Z theseb: stamourv: yes....but why do CS departments use python then? ....they abandoned that SICP mentality and HtDP too
2014-11-28T20:57:57Z turbofail: there were never that many CS departments using SICP afaik.  most of them were using C++ or java
2014-11-28T20:58:00Z stamourv: And some of them believe that their jobs is to deliver fully-formed interview candidates to the enterprise, and that they are thus doing their students a service by teaching them they language du jour.
2014-11-28T20:58:18Z scoofy: C++ is even ugly, compared to C
2014-11-28T20:58:57Z theseb: turbofail: yes but even MIT switched to Python which is disappointing
2014-11-28T20:59:08Z theseb: turbofail: i think they said it was for a trivial reason like
2014-11-28T20:59:09Z scoofy: I had to totally unlearn all the C++ I knew, to start learning C
2014-11-28T20:59:31Z theseb: turbofail: there were libraries for the robotics that worked with python
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2014-11-28T21:00:22Z theseb: scoofy: i always avoided C++ :)
2014-11-28T21:01:03Z scoofy: nowadays, me too... after 'unlearning' all the C++, and learning all the beauty of ANSI C, I avoid C++ whenever I can
2014-11-28T21:01:22Z theseb: stamourv: i'd expect that kind of skimping from a trade school but even top universities don't care to teach the deep concepts of CS...that is disappointing..
2014-11-28T21:01:51Z theseb: scoofy: i love the clean languages like C and lisp....and compared to perl python is "clean" too
2014-11-28T21:02:16Z taylanub: since when is C clean? :P
2014-11-28T21:02:26Z theseb: taylanub: relative to C++! :)
2014-11-28T21:02:42Z taylanub: everything is clean relative to C++ :D
2014-11-28T21:02:45Z theseb: the worst of all possible world but be some pinhead that love perl and C++
2014-11-28T21:03:07Z theseb: that makes we want to vomit....the thought that some students mainly use perl and C++
2014-11-28T21:03:21Z theseb: and they love it too
2014-11-28T21:03:33Z scoofy: perl is hacky. ugly but efficient
2014-11-28T21:03:42Z scoofy: that could be said of C++ too
2014-11-28T21:03:55Z theseb: and common lisp! ;)
2014-11-28T21:03:59Z stamourv: theseb: Re teaching deep concepts of CS: That's not accurate. They still teach deep concepts of, e.g., algorithms, data structures, systems, ToC. They are not teaching deep concepts of *programming*.
2014-11-28T21:04:49Z stamourv: theseb: The reason for this is that a lot of faculty don't think that there's anything fundamental in programming, that it's mostly a matter of fashion.
2014-11-28T21:05:22Z stamourv: Or worse, that languages/etc. don't matter, because they're all equivalent (in the Turing-equivalence sense).
2014-11-28T21:05:29Z theseb: stamourv: where would the whole topic of lisp being able to build of from a subset of primitives and special forms and evaluation rules fit in?
2014-11-28T21:05:41Z stamourv: (Which is another very important difference between ToC and programming.)
2014-11-28T21:05:41Z theseb: stamourv: to be built up*
2014-11-28T21:05:49Z stamourv: theseb: It does not.
2014-11-28T21:05:59Z theseb: stamourv: is that CS or programming?
2014-11-28T21:06:11Z stamourv: It's at best a curiosity. Or a nice side observation in a ToC course.
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2014-11-28T21:06:33Z theseb: stamourv: aw man..that sucks...because the infrastructure of lisp is soo beautiful and elegant
2014-11-28T21:07:06Z stamourv: You can use it to make a point about modularity and orthogonality is programming (in which case, yes, it's relevant to programming). But on its own, it's at best cute.
2014-11-28T21:07:09Z theseb: stamourv: i love how you can write all of lisp from a few pieces ....Paul Graham says those pieces are like the axioms of lisp..that was breathtaking to me
2014-11-28T21:07:31Z stamourv: Yes, it's cute. But that's all there is to it.
2014-11-28T21:08:18Z stamourv: And frankly, I find this kind of talk (talk of axioms, Maxwell's equation) more akin to mysticism than to either science or engineering.
2014-11-28T21:09:01Z theseb: stamourv: if you would have replaced mysticism with mathematics i would have agreed with you
2014-11-28T21:09:11Z stamourv: There is a place for beauty in this world, and it *is* a beautiful idea. But we need to not confuse beauty and utility.
2014-11-28T21:09:36Z theseb: stamourv: you may be a more practical person....i wonder if somehow lisp would belong in a math class somehow
2014-11-28T21:09:50Z stamourv: theseb: If you want mathematics, then look at the lambda calculus. That's a solid mathematical system, and it's minimalist.
2014-11-28T21:09:53Z theseb: stamourv: start with the "axioms" of lisp...etc....that'd be awesome
2014-11-28T21:10:24Z stamourv: The kind of "ur-lisp" that you're talking about is essentially just an awkward middle ground.
2014-11-28T21:10:25Z theseb: stamourv: yes but lambda cal is TOO impractical....Racket/Scheme subset is just a tad more practical
2014-11-28T21:10:42Z stamourv: Not minimalist, elegant, and mathematically solid like lambda calculi.
2014-11-28T21:10:55Z theseb: i always thought McCarthy was trying to make a "practical lambda calculus" when he invented lisp
2014-11-28T21:11:03Z stamourv: And not a useful engineering tool, like more modern programming languages.
2014-11-28T21:11:18Z stamourv: theseb: Right, he made a practical lambda calculus-like for the 60s.
2014-11-28T21:11:51Z theseb: i guess ToC/elegance and PLT/utility and at far ends of a spectrum
2014-11-28T21:12:04Z theseb: everyone has their place along the spectrum they like to play in
2014-11-28T21:12:07Z stamourv: Programming was different then. We need to evolve. And that's what languages like, say, Racket or Clojure do. Take the good, solid ideas from the Lisp tradition, but include the things we've learned since then, and adapt to what programming is like today.
2014-11-28T21:12:12Z theseb: it is matter of taste how mathematical you want to go
2014-11-28T21:12:37Z theseb: at one extreme you play with lambda cal...at the other end you optimize common lisp code
2014-11-28T21:12:44Z theseb: or java
2014-11-28T21:12:47Z theseb: or c sharp
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2014-11-28T21:13:07Z stamourv: Re your above comment (was typing too much to read :) ) Yes, I would consider myself a practical person, but I can appreciate beautiful mathematics. It's just that, as I said above, early lisp is not it.
2014-11-28T21:13:29Z pnpuff: stamourv: which came first, the chicken or the egg?
2014-11-28T21:14:46Z stamourv: theseb: Re ToC vs programming: I recommend this: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/OnHtDP/turing_is_useless.html
2014-11-28T21:14:51Z taylanub: .oO( presumably there were many egg-laying birds before the chicken )
2014-11-28T21:14:56Z stamourv: pnpuff: Context?
2014-11-28T21:15:56Z theseb: stamourv: Racket is trying to do what i'm saying...your trying to have it both ways too like me
2014-11-28T21:16:28Z theseb: stamourv: Racket tries to have the elegance of lisp and the practicality of other languages
2014-11-28T21:16:45Z theseb: stamourv: it is a dream like i'm wishing i had....both in one language!
2014-11-28T21:16:48Z theseb: stamourv: you're*
2014-11-28T21:17:18Z theseb: stamourv: so you aren't that different from me after all :)
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2014-11-28T21:17:49Z stamourv: Right, but that has more to do with elegance and orthogonality in design (a key concept in engineering in general) than any kind of minimalism.
2014-11-28T21:18:00Z theseb: stamourv: if isn't as academic as lambda calculus nor as ugly and practical and python or java
2014-11-28T21:18:03Z stamourv: It's the cult of minimalism that I object to.
2014-11-28T21:18:09Z theseb: s/and/as
2014-11-28T21:20:55Z theseb: stamourv: i may have misspoken...i don't reduce things to their minimal essentials because i want to stay there...my goals are to go there to understand really well what is happening under the hood...then slowly build up from there ...if that clarifies things
2014-11-28T21:21:49Z theseb: stamourv: i'm a physicist.....we like to reduce things and understand how all the pieces fit together...it is also a math way of thinking
2014-11-28T21:21:59Z theseb: axioms...n' all that
2014-11-28T21:22:38Z stamourv: Right, that's useful when building models.
2014-11-28T21:23:00Z stamourv: And in fact, a lot of programming language researchers do similar things when they're trying to understand, e.g., a new language feature.
2014-11-28T21:23:20Z stamourv: But my claim is that this is not the mindset you want to have when programming.
2014-11-28T21:23:41Z theseb: stamourv: yes..models is a great word...lisp's system has a discoverable model whereas syntax heavy languages not so much
2014-11-28T21:24:08Z theseb: stamourv: you may be right about me having the wrong mindset
2014-11-28T21:24:21Z stamourv: (Oh, and boiling down languages to smaller sets of constructs is also very useful when writing compilers. See the Orbit paper and the Languages as Libraries paper for examples.)
2014-11-28T21:24:25Z theseb: stamourv: i may be applying my mindset from physics and math to an area it doesn't belong
2014-11-28T21:24:34Z stamourv: Syntax is a red herring there.
2014-11-28T21:24:48Z stamourv: There are nice and simple models of, say, the core of Java.
2014-11-28T21:25:19Z stamourv: Heck, lambda-JS is a core calculus for JavaScript. (Wouldn't call it small, though.)
2014-11-28T21:25:21Z theseb: stamourv: perhaps but i wasn't taught those models in my java class :(
2014-11-28T21:25:48Z stamourv: Right, they're useful when studying languages themselves as objects of study. Not so much for programming.
2014-11-28T21:26:00Z stamourv: They are both interesting activities (and I do both!) but they're distinct.
2014-11-28T21:26:08Z theseb: yea..i see what you mean
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2014-11-28T21:26:16Z stamourv: Maybe you want to do the former, then. :)
2014-11-28T21:26:31Z theseb: so tell me again what do you call what i'm interested in?
2014-11-28T21:26:37Z theseb: "modelling languages" ?
2014-11-28T21:26:47Z stamourv: But even then, models are just that, models. Useful for understanding phenomena, but necessarily an abstraction of reality.
2014-11-28T21:27:07Z stamourv: I think you may be interested in the study of programming languages.
2014-11-28T21:27:13Z theseb: PLT!
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2014-11-28T21:27:30Z stamourv: "Modeling languages" are something else, related to specifications, UML, etc. More of an SE thing.
2014-11-28T21:27:54Z theseb: ok...then i want to make a high school math class that is the basics of PLT...that'd be awesome...i'd start with lisp pieces and lambda cal...
2014-11-28T21:28:01Z stamourv: Re the PLT acronym: That acronym is not actually used at all within the research community, except to refer to PLT the research group, who develops Racket.
2014-11-28T21:28:02Z theseb: i'd have then write eval in lisp
2014-11-28T21:28:29Z stamourv: If you want to get into PL (the acronym that we *do* use), I highly recommend PLAI.
2014-11-28T21:28:34Z stamourv: Freely available online, too!
2014-11-28T21:28:45Z stamourv: https://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Books/ProgLangs/
2014-11-28T21:29:19Z theseb: cool..thanks!
2014-11-28T21:29:20Z stamourv: Shriram is one of the most interesting researchers in the field, IMO.
2014-11-28T21:29:43Z theseb: but i don't want to get too heavy....just scratch surface
2014-11-28T21:29:51Z theseb: high school student level i.e.
2014-11-28T21:30:15Z stamourv: My understanding is that the topics it covers are fairly independent, so you can probably pick bits and pieces here and there.
2014-11-28T21:30:31Z stamourv: But then again, not sure it's a good idea for students who don't have any exposure to programming.
2014-11-28T21:30:37Z stamourv: I was more recommending it for yourself.
2014-11-28T21:30:41Z theseb: ah
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2014-11-28T21:32:02Z theseb: PL is interesting and odd because it is academic yet it is not exactly computation theory
2014-11-28T21:32:15Z theseb: like turing machines and lambda cal
2014-11-28T21:32:32Z stamourv: Right, they're different subdisciplines.
2014-11-28T21:32:44Z stamourv: There's a lot of different subdisciplines within CS.
2014-11-28T21:34:12Z theseb: well thanks for the conversation..it was very enlightening....think i'll go rest now
2014-11-28T21:35:39Z stamourv: No problem, take care!
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2014-11-28T23:56:00Z theseb: help! trying to write a zip function that combines 2 lists this way... (zip '(x y z) '(a b c)) -> ( (x a) (y b) (z c) )
2014-11-28T23:56:08Z theseb: i got this far.. http://pastebin.com/EAfr2eDB
2014-11-28T23:56:30Z theseb: problem is i don't have to "exit" ....right now i return '() when done but that is wrong
2014-11-28T23:56:52Z theseb: s/have to/know how
2014-11-28T23:57:18Z theseb: i could safe the answer in an accumulator but wondered if there was a stateless way to do it
2014-11-28T23:57:20Z theseb: save*