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2014-11-26T00:23:51Z cojy: OH
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2014-11-26T00:42:55Z bbowes: is it possible to compile native MIT scheme with a portable c distribution installed?
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2014-11-26T03:42:26Z xyh: I just have learn the concurrent programming interface of erlang, is it possible to use call/cc in an concurrent programming interface ??
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2014-11-26T03:42:33Z xyh: * learned
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2014-11-26T03:45:31Z cojy: yes of course
2014-11-26T03:45:50Z cojy: there is a system based on that
2014-11-26T03:46:05Z cojy: https://code.google.com/p/termite/
2014-11-26T03:46:33Z xyh: cojy: :)
2014-11-26T03:46:41Z vanila: you could pause and resume a procedure with call/cc
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2014-11-26T03:49:07Z xyh: vanila: but I thought message passing is needed, for a function might be running on another machine
2014-11-26T03:49:21Z cojy: call/cc lets you reify/pause the computation... then you can do whatever scheduling, serialization etc. as you please once you have done that
2014-11-26T03:49:26Z vanila: oh between machines is differnet, I don't know about that
2014-11-26T03:49:50Z cojy: xyh: and chicken, gambit etc. let you serialize after you've paused with call/cc to send to a different machine
2014-11-26T03:51:15Z cojy: oh
2014-11-26T03:51:39Z xyh: oh what ?
2014-11-26T03:51:44Z cojy: the message passing itself is also just a matter of serialization
2014-11-26T03:53:03Z xyh: cojy: sending functions to a different machine would be cool. I have just came up with a algorithm to do serialize last night,
2014-11-26T03:54:22Z xyh: just like a copy-compress-GC
2014-11-26T03:55:15Z xyh: maybe I am re-inventing something again :P
2014-11-26T03:55:26Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/115066
2014-11-26T03:55:33Z vanila: hanoi example with callcc
2014-11-26T03:56:46Z cojy: yea xyh you will find a lot of material on it if you look up serializable continuations
2014-11-26T03:57:18Z xyh: cojy: do you have some links to share ? please
2014-11-26T03:57:44Z cojy: give me a second trying out vanila's example
2014-11-26T03:58:36Z xyh goes to eat some noodles :P
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2014-11-26T04:00:23Z yzzxy: hello, has anyone here used mit-scheme varients? I'm working through SICP and I could use some help with some environment questions if anyone has experience.
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2014-11-26T04:22:38Z xyh: yzzxy: do not ask to ask, just ask :)
2014-11-26T04:24:00Z yzzxy: ok. what is the best way to have variables or definitions persist in the scheme environment? Right now I keep things in scm files and serve them to the repl over tmux from tslime every time I start work
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2014-11-26T04:26:21Z xyh: yzzxy: you can (actually you should) ues emacs and it's cmuscheme-mode
2014-11-26T04:28:01Z xyh: this mode has a good solution for initialize REPL
2014-11-26T04:28:11Z xyh: * initializing REPL
2014-11-26T04:28:23Z yzzxy: xyh: my input setup is fine. I'm wondering more if there is a way to have my environment persist from use to use
2014-11-26T04:30:27Z xyh: "from use to use" ?  so, one "use" is you open the REPL and set it up, another "use" is you open the REPL and set it up another time ? is it ?
2014-11-26T04:30:55Z yzzxy: essentially. It seems like I should be able to do this, the debugger tells me it has thousands of definitions when I start it up
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2014-11-26T04:32:44Z xyh: maybe you mean module-system ?
2014-11-26T04:33:00Z yzzxy: that shoulds like what I'm looking for, I will look into it
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2014-11-26T04:34:13Z yzzxy: it appears mitscheme never got a module system
2014-11-26T04:36:33Z xyh: it is erlang :: http://www.erlang.org/course/sequential_programming.html#modules
2014-11-26T04:37:01Z xyh: do you mean some thing like this module system in scheme ?
2014-11-26T04:37:10Z yzzxy: xyh I am aware of erlang's module system but I need to use mit-scheme specifically
2014-11-26T04:37:48Z yzzxy: It doesn't have to bee that good, I'm happy with a messy way to have definitions persist every time I launch the scheme environment
2014-11-26T04:41:38Z xyh: yzzxy: I ues emacs and cmuscheme-mode, I have a file "/home/xyh/.emacs.d/scheme/cmuscheme-init-repl/init-mit-scheme.scm", every time I run mit-scheme in emacs, that file get loaded.
2014-11-26T04:42:10Z yzzxy: ok. Looks like I'm stuck with text files unless someone knows of a better way. Thanks
2014-11-26T04:43:35Z xyh: yzzxy: oh! you have to use text files, for mit-scheme is not a image of a VM
2014-11-26T04:44:15Z yzzxy: really? I had assumed it was because of the microcode components and stuff. I guess I need to start thinking in the '80s
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2014-11-26T04:48:33Z xyh: yzzxy: do you know smalltalk? smalltalk has a VM-image, when you run the VM-image, you can define a new function into it, and exit, the newly defined function stored into the VM-image, when you run the VM-image again the new function will be there.
2014-11-26T04:50:31Z xyh: yzzxy: do you mean this by "non-text-file" ?
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2014-11-26T06:36:23Z sibaru: Can anyone estimate the big-oh complexity of this: http://ideone.com/lgDrC2 ?
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2014-11-26T06:38:27Z MichaelRaskin: Looks like 2^n
2014-11-26T06:38:49Z MichaelRaskin: You call median two times with the argument being shorter by one
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2014-11-26T06:47:50Z sibaru: MichaelRaskin: Exponential time then? You feel pretty sure about that. I can tell that the algorithm isn't very efficiency. I initial thought quadratic.
2014-11-26T06:48:47Z MichaelRaskin: Am I right that median of something length:N>3 does 2 calls to median of something length:N-1?
2014-11-26T06:48:57Z MichaelRaskin: I just skimmed the code
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2014-11-26T06:49:28Z MichaelRaskin: Could miss some paren that changes the algorithm
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2014-11-26T06:51:18Z sibaru: Two recursions occur on the given list (of whatever size-n): One is for the given target, going through each succeeding element counting, to get the number of succeeding elements. The other is working through the list, taking each element as a target.
2014-11-26T06:51:56Z sibaru: The recursion has to be forked in one of two ways: 1. Get the cdr of the list and call the next recursion step while keeping the target as it is (like counting the succeeding values of a given target position, one by one).
2014-11-26T06:52:04Z MichaelRaskin: Then your call tree has depth ~N and branches in two on each level, right?
2014-11-26T06:52:10Z sibaru: 2. The function also can change the target to the next element of the list. In this case, the succeeding value of the old target plus the preceding value of the old target becomes the new preceding value of the (new) target. And the succeeding value becomes 0 and the count starts again in the next recursion.
2014-11-26T06:52:15Z sibaru: I believe so
2014-11-26T06:52:37Z MichaelRaskin: Each node does some minimal job of their own and there are ~2^n nodes
2014-11-26T06:53:03Z sibaru: Hm. I see, I believe I understand that then.
2014-11-26T06:53:07Z MichaelRaskin: (one on top, two with length one less, four with length two less than original etc.)
2014-11-26T06:53:29Z sibaru: Right, right, right. Not very efficient! But, I'm understanding.
2014-11-26T06:53:32Z sibaru: Hm!
2014-11-26T06:54:30Z sibaru: Thank you a lot, MichaelRaskin!
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2014-11-26T06:54:55Z MichaelRaskin: You are welcome
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2014-11-26T07:04:08Z sibaru: That's about all I can think about tonight. MichaelRaskin, thank you so much again. Good night!
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2014-11-26T07:31:59Z ska-fan: Which one is correct:
2014-11-26T07:32:15Z ska-fan: ((lambda (f) (f)) (lambda () 'a)) or ((lambda (f) (f)) '(lambda () 'a)) ?
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2014-11-26T07:38:25Z ska-fan: I kinda think that the first one is, and if it is, then there's an error in http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/jmc.ps (Link on http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html)
2014-11-26T07:38:42Z ska-fan: On page 4 at the bottom.
2014-11-26T07:40:57Z ska-fan: rudybot: ((lambda () 'a))
2014-11-26T07:40:57Z rudybot: ska-fan: ; Value: 'a
2014-11-26T07:41:01Z ska-fan: rudybot: ((lambda () a))
2014-11-26T07:41:01Z rudybot: ska-fan: error: a: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-11-26T07:41:06Z ska-fan: rudybot: ((lambda () '''a))
2014-11-26T07:41:07Z rudybot: ska-fan: ; Value: '''a
2014-11-26T07:41:18Z ska-fan: rudybot: (eval ((lambda () '''a)))
2014-11-26T07:41:18Z rudybot: ska-fan: ; Value: ''a
2014-11-26T07:42:48Z ska-fan: Hmm, rudybot says Paul Graham is wrong.
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2014-11-26T16:56:21Z theseb: ow implement "map" and "list" functions in lisp? anyone know of example code somewhere?
2014-11-26T16:56:28Z theseb: how*
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2014-11-26T16:58:18Z taylanub: theseb: 'list' must either be built-in, or can be implemented as (lambda x x).  'map' is simple in terms of 'fold', or you can just cons up the results then reverse them
2014-11-26T16:59:02Z theseb: taylanub: can both of those be done as functions rather than primitives?
2014-11-26T16:59:10Z theseb: any example code on web somewhere?
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2014-11-26T16:59:53Z Riastradh: (define (map f l) (if (pair? l) (cons (f (car l)) (map f (cdr l))) '()))
2014-11-26T16:59:53Z theseb: One more thing...besides being cool....WHEN do people actually use/need eval and apply?
2014-11-26T17:00:01Z taylanub: (define (map proc list) (let lp ((list list) (results '())) (if (null? list) (reverse results) (lp (cdr list) (cons (proc (car list)) results)))))  ;untested and doesn't handle multiple lists
2014-11-26T17:00:06Z theseb: Riastradh: just wow
2014-11-26T17:00:10Z theseb: that was awesome
2014-11-26T17:00:22Z theseb: thanks
2014-11-26T17:03:05Z Riastradh: (define (compose f g) (lambda x (f (apply g x)))), or (define (compose f g) (lambda x (call-with-values (lambda () (apply g x)) f)))
2014-11-26T17:03:14Z taylanub: theseb: 'apply' is very often useful; you'll hit a use-case soon enough if you start writing substantial code.  'eval' .. can be useful for a variety of things but generally only for specific cases where you really want a "second layer" of code; note that Scheme's standard 'eval' &co. give you no way to eval something within the current lexical scope, or let you mutate stuff in the environment of
2014-11-26T17:03:14Z taylanub: a library, etc.; there's just the somewhat vague (interaction-environment)
2014-11-26T17:03:18Z Riastradh: ((compose sqrt +) 5 3)
2014-11-26T17:07:01Z taylanub: see e.g. http://sprunge.us/DcbN for a "real-life" usage of R7RS's 'eval'.  (FWIW follow-up mail has a correction: http://sprunge.us/RMaSq )  (private e-mails but I doubt he cares :P)
2014-11-26T17:07:42Z theseb: Would there be any benefit to teaching programming via the "axioms" of lisp kinda like geometry has axioms you build up from?  I'm thinking of Paul Graham's beautiful Roots of Lisp paper where he revisits McCarthy's original work
2014-11-26T17:07:54Z taylanub: (haven't come around to putting that code to https://gitorious.org/taylan-scheme/srfi/ yet)
2014-11-26T17:08:06Z theseb: seems that would make a compelling quasi-math-programming class for high schools no?
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2014-11-26T17:08:50Z taylanub: education methods are probably quite a hard topic.  every mind is different etc.
2014-11-26T17:08:53Z jeapostrophe: theseb: you should read the Dijkstra note on the cruelty of teaching programming where he talks about starting from Hoare logic and read CMU's statement on how they do it
2014-11-26T17:09:05Z theseb: comp sci just teaches syntax w/o the underlying math and beaufiful structure
2014-11-26T17:09:51Z taylanub: "computer science" generally includes the underlying math.  "programming," "coding," and maybe "software engineering" might not necessarily (though the last probably does in the ideal case)
2014-11-26T17:10:07Z theseb: taylanub: McCarthy's implementation of eval in lisp is so breathtakingly beautiful that it seems it almost has to be taught in high schools imho
2014-11-26T17:10:15Z theseb: it *must* be useful somehow if geometry is
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2014-11-26T17:22:32Z theseb: taylanub: have you gone thru SICP?
2014-11-26T17:23:00Z theseb: taylanub: i'm basically wondering about a kinda of dumbed down SICP curriculum for high school
2014-11-26T17:23:27Z theseb: maybe "dumbed down" isn't the right choice of words
2014-11-26T17:24:37Z taylanub: I went through almost exactly the first half IIRC, after which I lost motivation
2014-11-26T17:24:48Z taylanub: I didn't bother doing any exercises either really
2014-11-26T17:25:11Z theseb: taylanub: yea..no need to do all...but a few of the core simple ideas can carry you for the rest of your days
2014-11-26T17:25:58Z taylanub: learning Scheme one way or another teaches those ideas I think, though there might still be things I could learn from SICP.
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2014-11-26T22:23:33Z nehaljwani: What is the purpose of begin keyword in scheme?
2014-11-26T22:24:39Z taylanub: nehaljwani: example: (if foo (begin (display "foo is true\n") (blahblah)) (begin (display "foo is false\n") (blahblah)))
2014-11-26T22:24:44Z fizzie: "begin -- The <expression>s are evaluated sequentially from left to right, and the value(s) of the last <expression> is(are) returned. This expression type is used to sequence side effects such as input and output."
2014-11-26T22:25:09Z nehaljwani: taylanub, thanks
2014-11-26T22:25:53Z nehaljwani: Is it possible for me ask fizzie for more keywords?
2014-11-26T22:27:10Z taylanub: I don't think fizzie is a bot :)
2014-11-26T22:27:29Z nehaljwani: oops my bad
2014-11-26T22:27:30Z taylanub: nehaljwani: that was probably copied from the R5RS document.  (the newest version is R7RS-small)
2014-11-26T22:28:22Z taylanub: http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/raw-attachment/wiki/WikiStart/r7rs.pdf
2014-11-26T22:30:28Z nehaljwani: taylanub, I need to understand the keyword 'yield'
2014-11-26T22:30:39Z nehaljwani: Having some difficulty with it
2014-11-26T22:35:02Z ska-fan: So, '() evaluates to ()?
2014-11-26T22:35:25Z ska-fan: or rather, () evaluates to ()?
2014-11-26T22:35:37Z stamourv: rudybot: ()
2014-11-26T22:35:38Z rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
2014-11-26T22:35:38Z rudybot: stamourv: error: eval:1:0: #%app: missing procedure expression; <NEWLINE>  probably originally (), which is an illegal empty application <NEWLINE>   in: (#%app)
2014-11-26T22:35:54Z stamourv: ska-fan: No, `()` does not evaluate. It's an error.
2014-11-26T22:36:01Z pjb: () is bound to () so yes, () evaluates to ().
2014-11-26T22:36:15Z pjb: Sorry, I thought we were in #emacs.
2014-11-26T22:36:31Z stamourv: pjb: `()` can't be bound, it's not a variable. Or is it in elisp?
2014-11-26T22:37:09Z pjb: Yes, in scheme, () is a special object, not the symbol nil like in elisp.
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2014-11-26T22:38:59Z stamourv: pjb: No, I mean syntactically. It's not a variable. It does evaluate to the empty list in some lisps. I was just objecting to the use of the word "bound".
2014-11-26T22:39:03Z stamourv: </pedant>
2014-11-26T22:39:51Z ska-fan: Hmm, thanks.
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2014-11-26T22:43:18Z taylanub: nehaljwani: there's no 'yield' in standard Scheme
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2014-11-26T22:44:22Z taylanub: in Elisp () is just a synonym for nil, I think on the reader level.  and nil is a constant bound to .. wait for it .. nil.
2014-11-26T22:45:00Z taylanub: (symbolp nil) => t  ;it hurts!
2014-11-26T22:45:14Z taylanub: (symbol-name nil) => "nil"  ;stahp!
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2014-11-26T22:48:35Z pjb: funnier if you do it like: (symbolp '()) -> t ; (symbol-name '()) -> "nil" :-)
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2014-11-26T23:03:03Z ska-fan: So, honestly, does lisp syntax actually become readable after you got used to it?
2014-11-26T23:03:52Z ska-fan: One might state that its macro power comes at the cost of its not easily readable syntax.
2014-11-26T23:05:49Z stamourv: ska-fan: The cost is that eventually, no other syntax will be easily readable. ;)
2014-11-26T23:06:11Z MichaelRaskin: Well, it is easy to reformat automatically, and most people find at least one formatting style that is readable for them
2014-11-26T23:06:33Z stamourv: That, and it's amenable to structured editing, which makes life very nice.
2014-11-26T23:07:26Z MichaelRaskin: If you want unlimited macros and compilation and more classical syntax, try Julia
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2014-11-26T23:08:14Z ska-fan: Hmm, I'll look at Julia!
2014-11-26T23:08:19Z taylanub: ska-fan: I find Lisp very readable, yes.  I think my brain just picks up concrete visual cues like "(let ((", "(let-values (((", etc. and knows what to expect...
2014-11-26T23:09:10Z pjb: ska-fan: the big win, is that you don't have to deal with operator priorities.
2014-11-26T23:09:14Z MichaelRaskin: But lisps (maybe you need to choose syntax highlighting scheme) are quite readable after some experience
2014-11-26T23:09:14Z taylanub: with the `let-values' example I mean to stress that even parantheses-jungle like that is no issue once you pick it up
2014-11-26T23:10:09Z pjb: ska-fan: if you are able to tell us the 27 levels of operators priority of C++ right now without looking it up, then you're allowed to disparage lisp parentheses.  Otherwise you better accept the fact that lisp parentheses are superior.
2014-11-26T23:10:43Z taylanub: I think that's still opinionated, pjb
2014-11-26T23:11:02Z MichaelRaskin: I always wondered whether Pascal operator priorities were deliberately designed in such a way as to make parenthesis unavoidable
2014-11-26T23:11:18Z ijp: opinions are like arseholes. everybody has one, and they all stink
2014-11-26T23:11:27Z pjb: taylanub: you're in the university, to the study with control groups and all that is needed to prove that 27 levels of priority is too much.
2014-11-26T23:11:51Z pjb: s/to/do/
2014-11-26T23:12:34Z taylanub: "but we just use optional parantheses when it's too much" yadda yadda
2014-11-26T23:12:44Z taylanub: people will have their methods to deal with it
2014-11-26T23:13:01Z pjb: And you say that as if it wasn't a problem!
2014-11-26T23:13:13Z taylanub: but yeah, C-like syntax tends to leave a *lot* open with regard to code formatting style (where do braces go, where do I use explicit parantheses for clarity, etc.), and there's a dozen concrete styles to choose from.  in Lisp, there's very little dissent in coding style.
2014-11-26T23:13:13Z pjb: You shouldn't need to have methods to deal with man-made problems!
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2014-11-26T23:15:50Z ska-fan: taylanub: how many years did your brain get used to lisp syntax?
2014-11-26T23:16:10Z ijp: 1/365
2014-11-26T23:16:21Z pjb: It's so trivial…
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2014-11-26T23:16:58Z ijp: of all the things you could hate about lisp, the syntax is just being lazy
2014-11-26T23:17:00Z taylanub: I rarely write lisp and never once sat down to thoroughly learn it, rather leaving it to time, so no idea
2014-11-26T23:17:25Z taylanub: (rarely compared to other code I write as my job)
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2014-11-26T23:17:59Z ska-fan: pjb: I find say, Python, with lisp syntax just for expressions still way more readable.
2014-11-26T23:18:28Z taylanub: ska-fan: someone who sits down to edit Lisp code for an hour every day would probably get used to it in no more than a week.  you'll want to use a structured-editing mode like paredit or smartparens though.
2014-11-26T23:19:04Z ska-fan: I'd have to switch to emacs first, I guess ^^
2014-11-26T23:19:19Z taylanub: without such a mode, I imagine editing Lisp code being a chore; but with such a mode, I find it significantly nicer than editing any other language.
2014-11-26T23:19:25Z taylanub: ska-fan: there's a paredit for Vim too...
2014-11-26T23:19:41Z taylanub: and don't tell me you don't use either of these :P
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2014-11-26T23:22:01Z ska-fan: taylanub: I'll check out vim-paredit, thanks :)
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2014-11-26T23:23:44Z MichaelRaskin: I use vim and never used vim-paredit
2014-11-26T23:24:03Z MichaelRaskin: (my day job is mostly in Common Lisp)
2014-11-26T23:24:34Z MichaelRaskin: Just full use of built-in parenthesis helpers already gives a lot
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