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2014-11-22T11:58:27Z lritter: cheerio :)
2014-11-22T11:59:11Z lritter: i'm trying to implement syntax-rules into my scheme dialect but i'm not sure when syntax is supposed to be expanded
2014-11-22T11:59:32Z lritter: can it be done as part of eval or does it have to run somewhere else?
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2014-11-22T14:20:43Z jcowan: lritter: ping
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2014-11-22T14:31:45Z maddrmike: it's typically done before evaluation.  See references 3 and 6 from this article: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/bc-syntax-case.pdf
2014-11-22T14:32:14Z jcowan: Well, as the first stage of evaluation.
2014-11-22T14:32:41Z maddrmike: as well as the article itself, of course.
2014-11-22T14:33:05Z jcowan: It is possible, though tricky, to intertwine macro expansion and function application, but only SCM among current Schemes actually does so AFAICT.
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2014-11-22T14:47:17Z lritter: jcloud, pong
2014-11-22T14:47:32Z lritter: maddrmike, jcowan, thanks
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2014-11-22T14:49:06Z lritter: maddrmike, jcowan: another question that came up, which is kind of ungoogleable: what does (_ x y z) do?
2014-11-22T14:49:37Z pjb: Calls the function bound to _ with as arguments the result of evaluating x, y and z in any order.
2014-11-22T14:49:58Z lritter: okay, so _ is context dependent?
2014-11-22T14:50:03Z jcowan: In syntax-rules, the car of a pattern has no meaning and can be any symbol.  Some people like to write it as _, but I prefer to repeat the symbol being defined instead.
2014-11-22T14:50:12Z jcowan: It's important to grasp that syntax-rules *is not Scheme*.
2014-11-22T14:50:14Z lritter: yeah, that's what i'm often seeing
2014-11-22T14:50:19Z jcowan: It is a separate sublanguage.
2014-11-22T14:50:22Z lritter: yeah it is
2014-11-22T14:50:39Z lritter: wikipedia mentioned that the syntax forms plus the few forms surrounding lambda are enough to implement the rest of the language
2014-11-22T14:50:47Z lritter: and i like this approach
2014-11-22T14:50:51Z pjb: In syntax-case, when it's used in a patten, then it matches a list of 4 elements, the first is bound to _, the second to x, the third to y, the fourth to z.
2014-11-22T14:50:58Z LeoNerd: Scheme is lovely like that. Scheme is like Lego
2014-11-22T14:51:22Z jcowan: Literals, variables, if, lambda, quote, set!, letrec, and define are the whole language.
2014-11-22T14:51:29Z LeoNerd: A few simple basic ideas, carefully designed to be plugged together in all kinds of different and interesting ways, combined together to build higher and higher things
2014-11-22T14:51:41Z jcowan: pjb: Actually, nothing is bound to _
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2014-11-22T14:51:59Z LeoNerd: I think _ in car position is treated specially by the macro expander
2014-11-22T14:52:01Z lritter: LeoNerd, that's true
2014-11-22T14:52:11Z lritter: what i have my issues with is that some of the basic forms are a little unclean
2014-11-22T14:52:24Z lritter: that is, e.g. define and let have two different syntaxes
2014-11-22T14:52:45Z jcowan: The symbol in car position (at top level) is ignored by the macro expander.  _ in non-car position is treated specially in R6RS and R7RS expanders.
2014-11-22T14:52:50Z lritter: for a language that prides itself on not requiring syntax sugar, that's funny ;)
2014-11-22T14:53:05Z jcowan: Begin, too.
2014-11-22T14:53:09Z lritter: so i really like the principles, the standard is somewhat inconsequential.
2014-11-22T14:53:44Z lritter: syntax-rules/syntax-case seem to be introducing features that seem to be somewhat implicit in e.g. haskell
2014-11-22T14:53:54Z jcowan: Haskell has no equivalent of them.
2014-11-22T14:54:02Z lritter: haskell has pattern matching at the lowest level
2014-11-22T14:54:10Z lritter: every function declaration is a pattern
2014-11-22T14:54:16Z jcowan: Its syntax, like most languages, is not extensible.  The pattern matching in Haskell is against objects, not against syntax forms.
2014-11-22T14:54:29Z lritter: true
2014-11-22T14:55:08Z jcowan: Pure OTOH defines both functions and macros with the same syntax, except that syntax definitions are preceded by a keyword whereas function definitions are not.
2014-11-22T14:55:14Z lritter: most languages are too elaborate in their token sets to make syntax expansion unwieldy
2014-11-22T14:55:30Z lritter: lisp is so low fat on tokens that this is no problem
2014-11-22T14:55:44Z jcowan: so "a = b + c" means "rewrite b + c as a" at run time, whereas "def a = b + c" means "rewrite b + c as a" at compile time.
2014-11-22T14:56:04Z jcowan: "JRM's Syntax-rules Primer for the Merely Eccentric" is extremely useful to understanding syntax-rules.
2014-11-22T14:56:45Z lritter: i'll have a look
2014-11-22T14:56:49Z lritter: thanks for the pointers
2014-11-22T14:57:15Z jcowan: There was once talk of renaming named-let, but that ship sailed long ago.
2014-11-22T14:57:17Z lritter: what i'm working on is a bit weird; i'm implementing a scheme on top of lua that has tables as its homoiconic type, not lists
2014-11-22T14:57:24Z jcowan: Cool!
2014-11-22T14:57:34Z jcowan: There's a lot of appreciation for Lua among many Schemers
2014-11-22T14:57:46Z lritter: also, symbol binding is not by name but by address
2014-11-22T14:57:51Z jcowan: Eh?
2014-11-22T14:57:55Z lritter: which works mostly because there is no notation
2014-11-22T14:58:01Z lritter: that's right, no parser, no code generator :)
2014-11-22T14:58:37Z lritter: that is only possible because the code is not in text form
2014-11-22T14:58:48Z lritter: but exists as in-memory tree
2014-11-22T14:59:27Z lritter: binding directly to addresses/objects allows to build graphs without indirection
2014-11-22T14:59:57Z lritter: e.g. for (lambda (x) (+ x 1)), in text form, x would at parse time resolve to two different symbols with the same name
2014-11-22T15:00:00Z jcowan: Oh, okay.  The Lisp tradition has occasionally allowed such things, but not typically.
2014-11-22T15:00:05Z lritter: in this system, x is the exact same symbol in memory
2014-11-22T15:00:20Z jcowan: Actually no, there is no such thing as "two symbols with the same name"
2014-11-22T15:00:29Z jcowan: symbols are hashed so as to be unique.
2014-11-22T15:01:15Z lritter: jcowan, so you're saying for two lambda declarations after each other using x as argument name, x will resolve to the same object?
2014-11-22T15:02:45Z lritter: that's probably be no problem
2014-11-22T15:02:46Z jcowan: Yes
2014-11-22T15:03:05Z lritter: because even in nested contexts the closures bind it differently so there would be no collision
2014-11-22T15:03:10Z lritter: -be
2014-11-22T15:03:19Z jcowan: It's common to rename such identifiers so you do not have accidental collisions (this is called "alpha-conversion")
2014-11-22T15:03:38Z lritter: hm; okay - then i can guarantee that x is only in its context identical
2014-11-22T15:03:57Z jcowan: as the first stage in Scheme compilation/evaluation
2014-11-22T15:04:05Z lritter: because technically, in my system, names are just labels for documentation
2014-11-22T15:05:33Z lritter: i use a graphical representation, a bit like scheme blocks
2014-11-22T15:06:43Z lritter: a nice side-effect is that e.g. letrec is not needed, because graphically it's not difficult to have an unnamed lambda call itself
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2014-11-22T15:07:03Z jcowan: That is what letrec does, precisely: it ties a knot in the internal representation.
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2014-11-22T15:07:32Z lritter: the other neat side-effect is that changing the label of an argument changes it in the definition, which is a neat refactoring feature
2014-11-22T15:07:39Z jcowan: What is your back end: do you generate Lua, or bytecode, or is it a tree-walking interpreter?
2014-11-22T15:07:50Z lritter: it's a dumb tree-walking interpreter in its first stage
2014-11-22T15:07:57Z lritter: i plan to do the rest within the system
2014-11-22T15:08:18Z lritter: there are several targets planned; a code generator for GLSL and OpenCL, and a terra-based system that effectively talks to LLVM
2014-11-22T15:08:52Z jcowan: Fair enough.
2014-11-22T15:08:55Z lritter: i had a look at Extempore and i love what it does; what i do is headed in a similar direction, with some changes more suitable to game writing
2014-11-22T15:09:01Z jcowan: What about call/cc?
2014-11-22T15:09:14Z lritter panics and looks for the exit
2014-11-22T15:10:19Z lritter: to be honest, i have no idea what to do with it. lua has coroutines
2014-11-22T15:10:31Z lritter: so i thought i'd reuse some of that when it comes up
2014-11-22T15:10:50Z jcowan: Yes, which is equivalent to call/cc when you are only allowed to call the escape procedure once (known as `call-ec` in some dialects)
2014-11-22T15:11:02Z lritter: but it would only work in the lua context, GLSL and CL don't support it, for LLVM - no idea
2014-11-22T15:11:25Z jcowan: The key is not to map Scheme calls and returns into the host's calls and returns.
2014-11-22T15:11:43Z jcowan: Or alternatively to use the "Cheney on the MTA" system, like Chicken.
2014-11-22T15:12:05Z jcowan: since in Lua you don't have access to the control stack.
2014-11-22T15:12:09Z lritter: right
2014-11-22T15:12:48Z lritter: atm i'm busy getting to something that works at all, call/cc is somewhat of a luxury
2014-11-22T15:12:53Z jcowan nods.
2014-11-22T15:13:14Z jcowan: Just be aware that to support it in full you may need to throw away some or all of what you've got.
2014-11-22T15:13:42Z lritter: if that's only on the implementation side i can live with it i think
2014-11-22T15:13:59Z lritter: also a reason why i'm currently not optimizing anything
2014-11-22T15:14:13Z jcowan notes that OpenCL doesn't allow recursion
2014-11-22T15:14:21Z lritter: neither does GLSL
2014-11-22T15:14:56Z lritter: also, i'll have to add type inference support and general compiler friendliness
2014-11-22T15:15:51Z lritter: ah well; i'll read that pdf now. thanks for the thoughts
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2014-11-22T20:03:12Z hypermagic: hello my friends
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2014-11-22T20:03:53Z vanila: hi
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2014-11-22T20:44:12Z ecraven: Riastradh: is there any support for writing to syslog in MIT/GNU Scheme?
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2014-11-22T21:26:21Z Riastradh: ecraven: Nope.  (run-shell-command "logger -t myprog")...
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2014-11-22T22:01:10Z ecraven: Riastradh: thanks :) I was thinking about the ffi, but that's even simpler
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