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2014-11-19T04:40:30Z xyh: cojy: say we have #1=('x) and ('y #1#),  if GC copy #1=('x) first, then the #1# in ('y #1#) will be out of date !!
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2014-11-19T04:47:01Z cky: xyh: Surely, a moving GC system keeps indirect pointers (pointer-to-pointer) so that objects can be moved without having to update all the references.
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2014-11-19T05:06:23Z xyh: cky: I can imagine how "one-level-indirect" can be done for variables.
2014-11-19T05:06:24Z xyh: cky: but for list ???   in the memory, how a "cons"'s structure will be ??
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2014-11-19T05:17:33Z oleo: that depends totally on the implementation....
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2014-11-19T05:34:27Z xyh: oleo: yes, it do is the implementation tech  that I am trying to learn.
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2014-11-19T05:36:08Z Riastradh: When you first see #1, you move it and leave a forwarding address where it used to be.  When you next see #1, inside #2, you update #2 to use the forwarding address instead.
2014-11-19T05:39:05Z xyh: Riastradh: how about incremental ? there is some time  before #2 get updated.
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2014-11-19T05:41:21Z Riastradh: Then you need a read barrier to check the forwarding address -- when you try to take (cadr #2), it will have to check for a forwarding address.
2014-11-19T05:44:41Z xyh: Riastradh: build a interface into "cons" to do updating  ??
2014-11-19T05:44:47Z xyh: * an interface
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2014-11-19T16:12:42Z haole: I'm parsing a binary file and I have to find a control byte in it to start my parsing... does anyone have a fancy suggestion about implementing this? right now I'm writing a recursive function to iterate over bytes but it's not looking pretty :D
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2014-11-19T16:13:08Z vanila: maybe you could write a function to search for a byte, then use that
2014-11-19T16:16:39Z haole: hmm gonna try with simple strings then and complicate from there
2014-11-19T16:16:41Z haole: might work :)
2014-11-19T16:19:04Z ecraven: Riastradh: are there swifter methods for extracting a 32-bit unsigned integer (and all other variations) from a byte-string in MIT/GNU Scheme than vector-8b-ref on each part and proper multiplication / shifting? something built-in maybe?
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2014-11-19T16:27:29Z Riastradh: ecraven: Nope.  (Which unsigned integer?  Little-endian, big-endian, host-endian, nuxi-endian?)
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2014-11-19T16:30:43Z ecraven: Riastradh: all of them :)
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2014-11-19T16:32:14Z haole: can I read a string as a binary port?
2014-11-19T16:37:19Z cky: xyh: It won't be a special property of `cons` per se, but how your entire memory management system works.
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2014-11-19T16:39:38Z cky: xyh: Nobody said that Scheme locations have to be implemented as direct pointers. That's a sensible implementation strategy for non-moving GCs, but you might want to do something different for a moving GC.
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2014-11-19T16:40:38Z cky: xyh: The strategy Riastradh mentioned works too, then you don't always have to use double-indirection.
2014-11-19T16:41:29Z cky: ecraven: I'd like to think that there are ways to JIT-compile such things anyway.
2014-11-19T16:41:53Z Riastradh: ecraven: Anyway, no, nothing built-in.
2014-11-19T16:41:58Z cky: ecraven: (That is, the dynamic compiler sees that you're accessing those 4 bytes, so it reads in the whole word behind the scenes.)
2014-11-19T16:42:13Z Riastradh: haole: Depends on what Scheme system you're using...
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2014-11-19T16:42:24Z haole: Riastradh: guile
2014-11-19T16:42:33Z cky: haole: You should use bytevectors in Guile.
2014-11-19T16:42:37Z Riastradh: haole: Probably!  But I don't know how -- I don't use Guile.
2014-11-19T16:42:50Z cky: There are functions to convert strings into a bytevector "given a specific encoding".
2014-11-19T16:43:29Z ecraven: at least 32 bit integers are fixnums in MIT/GNU Scheme
2014-11-19T16:43:37Z Riastradh: ...on 64-bit systems.
2014-11-19T16:43:44Z cky: :-D
2014-11-19T16:43:57Z cky: Yes, pretty much every implementation I know reserves some bits for tagging.
2014-11-19T16:43:58Z Riastradh: On i386, fixnums are only 26 bits (signed).
2014-11-19T16:44:30Z cky: IIRC on a 64-bit system, Guile fixnums are 62 bits wide.
2014-11-19T16:44:41Z cky: Could be 61 though. I should double-check.
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2014-11-19T16:47:59Z Riastradh: ecraven: ...As an aside: why do you remark on 32-bit integers as fixnums?
2014-11-19T16:48:38Z ecraven: Riastradh: because 64 bit integers aren't fixnums in MIT/GNU Scheme, because they are tagged, right?
2014-11-19T16:48:57Z Riastradh: Yes.  But what prompted you to remark on it?
2014-11-19T16:49:06Z Riastradh: Performance concerns, or something else?
2014-11-19T16:49:47Z ecraven: yes, I've implemented a basic X11 interface in pure scheme, and it seems to be a bit slow at times. I still haven't profiled it properly though :-/
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2014-11-19T16:52:12Z Riastradh: Anything keeping you from profiling it?  How did the multithreaded profiling hack work?
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2014-11-19T16:52:52Z ecraven: Riastradh: didn't get to try it yet :-/ too much normal non-Scheme work
2014-11-19T16:53:50Z cky: .oO(Guile fixnums in 64-bit mode are 61 bits wide. Just for the record. :-P)
2014-11-19T16:54:11Z ecraven: Riastradh: on a related note, I've had good success making IO-bound processes much faster in racket by multi-threading them. Threads in Racket as I understand are not OS-threads. The concrete use case was running several hundred HTTP requests in parallel. Is there something like this in MIT/GNU Scheme, some sort of run-another-thread-if-blocking-on-io thing? Starting actual OS threads seems like it would probably be
2014-11-19T16:54:11Z ecraven:  slower :-/
2014-11-19T16:55:01Z Riastradh: If one thread blocks on I/O it doesn't block all the other ones on I/O in MIT Scheme.
2014-11-19T16:55:40Z Riastradh: It's pretty much the same threading model, more or less.
2014-11-19T16:55:51Z ecraven: Is there anything like for-each/parallel (which runs each function call in a separate thread) predefined?
2014-11-19T16:56:14Z ecraven: or even better, map/parallel
2014-11-19T16:56:24Z Riastradh: No, but it's easy to do -- just call CREATE-THREAD in FOR-EACH and then join the threads.
2014-11-19T16:56:46Z ecraven: Riastradh: How would I get results back, if I wanted to? Racket uses channels for that
2014-11-19T16:57:21Z Riastradh: (Easier if you make copypasta of THREAD-JOIN tests/runtime/test-thread-queue.scm than the built-in JOIN-THREAD, which is kludgey for no reason I know.)
2014-11-19T16:57:46Z ecraven: Thanks, I'll try that later tonight!
2014-11-19T16:58:00Z Riastradh: (define (map/parallel f l) (map thread-join (map (lambda (x) (create-thread #f (lambda () (f x)))) l)))
2014-11-19T16:58:22Z Riastradh: (Of course, `parallel' is a misnomer here.  The execution is merely interleaved.)
2014-11-19T16:58:49Z ecraven: hm... Was I misremembering that MIT/GNU Scheme supports actual OS threads?
2014-11-19T16:59:20Z Riastradh: Yes.  Matt Birkholz is working on that, but it won't be at the same level as CREATE-THREAD, and it won't be really ready for a while.
2014-11-19T16:59:39Z ecraven: ah, then this is the same as Racket. Still great, thank you!
2014-11-19T17:00:44Z theseb: why in lisp if something can be done just as easily with recursion and iteration do i feel like a failure if i use iteration?  somehow recursion got a rep as being more "proper" yes?
2014-11-19T17:00:47Z Riastradh: (Most of MIT Scheme is written under the assumption of a fundamentally sequential machine with total memory ordering.  He's got some of the pthread-based infrastructure in the microcode, and is replacing shallow-binding by deep-binding, but I don't think he's done anything about interprocessor synchronization or memory ordering issues yet.)
2014-11-19T17:02:07Z Riastradh: theseb: Not really.  Recursion is more expressive, but not always the clearest way to express something.
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2014-11-19T17:13:59Z ecraven: Riastradh: it sounds like a humongous task to port a system that wasn't designed with this in mind :-/
2014-11-19T17:14:27Z ecraven: I find ../parallel a good name because it *could* be parallel (it just perchance isn't yet :)
2014-11-19T17:14:48Z theseb: Riastradh: thanks! but what do you mean by "expressive" ?
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2014-11-19T17:33:21Z haole: I've written a quick snippet to find a byte in a give port, but I'm sure it's very stupid :)   can someone give me some suggestions or even a proper function in the standard libraries to do this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/144414
2014-11-19T17:33:34Z haole: (it seems to work, though)
2014-11-19T17:35:14Z ecraven: haole: you should use char=? to compare characters
2014-11-19T17:35:50Z haole: ecraven: thanks :)
2014-11-19T17:35:51Z ecraven: otherwise it seems fine ;)
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2014-11-19T17:37:45Z haole: is there a nice library around to represent sets graphically? like circles that I could expand or colapse and then be able to travel inside the sets of sets
2014-11-19T17:37:50Z haole: (this sounds like a bad acid trip)
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2014-11-19T21:31:02Z hypermagic: hello my friends
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2014-11-19T21:31:45Z ecraven: hey
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2014-11-19T21:38:44Z jenia: hello. what is the opposite of (list? '())? I mean, how do you ask if something is an atom?
2014-11-19T21:39:01Z jenia: and not (not (list? '()) lol
2014-11-19T21:39:42Z oleo: (atom? blah)
2014-11-19T21:40:16Z Riastradh: Well, since (list? '()) is #t, the opposite of it is #f...  But anyway: why not (not (list? x))?  What are you really trying to accompplish by discriminating on whether something is an `atom' or not?
2014-11-19T21:40:48Z oleo: try both
2014-11-19T21:41:06Z jenia: Riastradh, I want to implement a function called firsts
2014-11-19T21:41:33Z jenia: is takes all the first elements as so '((a b c) (d e f))----> '(a d)
2014-11-19T21:41:33Z vanila: null?
2014-11-19T21:41:39Z vanila: use NULL? to detect the end of a list
2014-11-19T21:42:12Z jenia: but what is the list is '(a (b c d) (e f g)), then I need to check if the element is a list or an atom
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2014-11-19T21:42:52Z jenia: (define firsts  (lambda (L) (cond ((null? L) '())
2014-11-19T21:43:41Z jenia: ((atom? (car L)) (cons (car L) (firsts (cdr L)))
2014-11-19T21:43:54Z vanila: use SYMBOL?
2014-11-19T21:44:01Z jenia: (else (cons (car (car L)) (firsts (cdr L)))))
2014-11-19T21:44:06Z jenia: something like that
2014-11-19T21:44:18Z vanila: use SYMBOL? to detect if something is a symbol
2014-11-19T21:44:32Z vanila: there is no such thing as ATOM? in R5RS
2014-11-19T21:44:35Z jenia: vanila, symbol didnt work for me
2014-11-19T21:44:44Z vanila: can I see you code?
2014-11-19T21:44:46Z jenia: unbound variable...
2014-11-19T21:44:52Z jenia: (SYMBOL? 'a)
2014-11-19T21:45:02Z vanila: maybe you need to switch to R5RS scheme mode
2014-11-19T21:45:18Z jenia: ahh ups, I used (symbol? 'a) and it worked
2014-11-19T21:45:20Z jenia: thanks
2014-11-19T21:45:48Z vanila: oh good!
2014-11-19T21:46:01Z jenia: but what do you think, is it a good idea to distinguish between atom and list? Is my function ... kind of programmed the way scheme is suppose to be programmed or is there a better way to do that?
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2014-11-19T21:47:13Z vanila: what is it you want to do exactly?
2014-11-19T21:47:32Z vanila: oh
2014-11-19T21:47:38Z vanila: I see what you want to do
2014-11-19T21:47:45Z vanila: so you could define a subroutine like this
2014-11-19T21:47:55Z vanila: (first-of 'a) ;=> a
2014-11-19T21:47:56Z jenia: yup
2014-11-19T21:47:59Z vanila: (first-of '(a b c)) ;=> a
2014-11-19T21:48:03Z vanila: (first-of '(b c)) ;=> b
2014-11-19T21:48:07Z vanila: (first-of 'x) ;=> x
2014-11-19T21:48:11Z jenia: yes
2014-11-19T21:48:40Z vanila: using (cond ((symbol? thing) thing) ((list? thing) (car thing)) (else (error "no thing")))
2014-11-19T21:48:48Z jenia: but also (first-of '((a b c) (d e f)) ;=> (a d)
2014-11-19T21:48:52Z vanila: and then you can define FIRSTS in a simpler way
2014-11-19T21:48:56Z vanila: oh
2014-11-19T21:49:00Z vanila: I must have misunderstood
2014-11-19T21:49:11Z vanila: I think I understand now
2014-11-19T21:49:21Z jenia: its from little schemer
2014-11-19T21:49:25Z vanila: okay
2014-11-19T21:49:49Z vanila: how about using MAP?
2014-11-19T21:50:07Z jenia: map? ill check that function out.
2014-11-19T21:50:26Z oleo: eheh
2014-11-19T21:50:41Z jenia: you know. I like "lisp" a lot. I now understand why `-` is not used in variable names in c, javascript and so on
2014-11-19T21:50:43Z oleo: ja, will be flat!
2014-11-19T21:51:10Z jenia: (cause its not possible to distinguish in those languages if `-` is the character or the function)
2014-11-19T21:51:29Z jenia: so its assumed to be the function
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2014-11-19T21:56:14Z taylanub: it's a binary infix "operator" to be exact; it's recognized at the grammar level already.
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2014-11-19T23:14:32Z technomancy: I stumbled upon prescheme the other day which claims to compile programs with "very little runtime overhead"--I wonder if "very little" means "so little it could run on a microcontroller"?
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