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2014-11-11T06:46:24Z teurastaja: Clever ways to infinite loop competition? I start with a basic one: ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x)))
2014-11-11T06:47:29Z teurastaja: Lets see some call/cc or lazy eval or macros or whatever
2014-11-11T06:50:20Z teurastaja: Ok whatever lets sleep
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2014-11-11T14:33:17Z ecraven: are all forms of an OR defined to be in tail position?
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2014-11-11T14:38:20Z taylanub: ecraven: R7RS seems to imply only the last, but I remember there was some talk about this...
2014-11-11T14:39:49Z ecraven: that seems strange.. shouldn't it expand to nested ifs (which would have them all in tail positions)?
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2014-11-11T14:42:01Z taylanub: ecraven: R7RS implements 'or' via (let ((x expression)) (if x x (or rest-expressions ...))), and in the section about tail recursion there's some rationale that has an example exactly like that ("(let ((x (proc))) x)" roughly) where TCO is not mandated but "may be detected by the implementation"
2014-11-11T14:42:57Z ecraven: taylanub: but x is clearly in tail position in both of these (in the former example only the latter x, obviously)
2014-11-11T14:43:29Z taylanub: yes, but it's a variable reference, not a call.
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2014-11-11T14:45:56Z taylanub: ecraven: actually, is it even possible to make a tail-call in a non-last expression in 'or'?  now that I think of it, it seems impossible; the return-value of the call must be tested and, if false, the next expression be evaluated.
2014-11-11T14:46:21Z ecraven: taylanub: the point is, you never need to return out of the if, isn't it?
2014-11-11T14:46:38Z ecraven: in (if a b c), both b and c are in tail position iff the entire if is in tail position
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2014-11-11T14:47:27Z taylanub: yes, but you don't want (if (proc) (proc) <else>), you want (let ((value (proc))) (if value value <else))
2014-11-11T14:48:04Z ecraven: the last thing in a LET is also in tail position iff the entire let is in tail position
2014-11-11T14:48:16Z ecraven: I don't think value or proc makes a difference
2014-11-11T14:48:37Z taylanub: as I said, value is a variable; the non-tail call to proc already happened by the time the if is reached
2014-11-11T14:49:09Z ecraven: ah, now I see what you mean!
2014-11-11T14:49:13Z ecraven: sorry for misunderstanding
2014-11-11T14:49:36Z ecraven: so the answer should be "no, they are not" :)
2014-11-11T14:49:53Z taylanub: and unlike in the generic (let ((value (proc))) value) case, which is easy to optimize to just (proc), that can't be done when there's some additional thing to be done with 'value', so it seems impossible to me
2014-11-11T14:50:14Z taylanub: it's kinda tricky though, I'm not 100% confident
2014-11-11T14:50:51Z ecraven: the only thing in a tail position is the last item, I think :)
2014-11-11T14:51:15Z taylanub: yeah, that's also mandated by R7RS
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2014-11-11T16:48:10Z cjfromthesea: could I embed Racket into a C API to access my Racket libraries from C?
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2014-11-11T16:57:11Z cojy: cjfromthesea: there is a #racket channel that is more likely to help with that
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2014-11-11T16:58:46Z cjfromthesea: alright
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2014-11-11T18:33:33Z mark_weaver: ecraven, taylanub: the only operand of OR that's in tail position is the last operand.
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2014-11-11T18:35:12Z mark_weaver: think about it: the continuation of any non-final operand is not the same as the continuation of the entire OR, because the OR has to check the results of the non-final operands and continue evaluating more expressions whenever #f is returned.
2014-11-11T18:36:49Z mark_weaver: in other words, you shouldn't even need to consult any standards to know that the non-final operands of OR _cannot_ be in tail position.
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2014-11-11T20:03:50Z xyh: hi friends! does tail-call-optimization can help mutual recursion too ? how ?
2014-11-11T20:04:09Z xyh: DGASAU: :P
2014-11-11T20:05:18Z vanila: yes it does
2014-11-11T20:05:20Z vanila: example
2014-11-11T20:05:25Z vanila: (define (yin) (yang))
2014-11-11T20:05:30Z vanila: (define (yang) (yin))
2014-11-11T20:05:36Z vanila: this can infinite loop without stack overflow
2014-11-11T20:05:54Z vanila: in python, C, Go etc... this will stack overflow
2014-11-11T20:05:55Z xyh: vanila: thx :)
2014-11-11T20:06:54Z DGASAU: Add some useful side effects there, and you have Moore machine.
2014-11-11T20:07:06Z ecraven: vanila: just to be nitpicking, I believe gcc does some very limited form of tail call optimization in C sometimes :)
2014-11-11T20:07:43Z vanila: ecraven, it's actually amazing how good gcc is at optimizing, it can turn direct style factorial into a loop for example
2014-11-11T20:08:09Z vanila: but I think that if you at least compile these functions in separate files and link them together, the c calling convention forces it to stack overflow
2014-11-11T20:08:41Z ecraven: that is true
2014-11-11T20:09:57Z DGASAU: clang claims to overcome this problem.
2014-11-11T20:11:41Z turbofail: gcc can also turn a non-tail-recursive fibonacci implementation into a loop as well
2014-11-11T20:12:01Z taylanub: mark_weaver: thanks for confirming :)
2014-11-11T20:12:02Z turbofail: iirc
2014-11-11T20:12:34Z xyh: what else tail-call-optimization can helps ?
2014-11-11T20:12:36Z taylanub: vanila: does this "C calling convention" prohibit link-time optimization?
2014-11-11T20:13:07Z taylanub: xyh: a tail-call is essentially a jump to the start of the function you're calling, entirely "forgetting" about the one you were previously in.
2014-11-11T20:13:49Z ecraven: DGASAU: overcome it by using llvm-ir as the basis for code generation across multiple modules? or actually compiling and linking different machine code files?
2014-11-11T20:14:04Z vanila: idk dude
2014-11-11T20:14:47Z xyh: oh! I see. it is not about helps what or not. instead it is that  tail-call-optimization is the right thing, while  implementation without tail-call-optimization is wrong.
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2014-11-11T20:15:39Z DGASAU: xyh: it is not about right or wrong.
2014-11-11T20:15:49Z turbofail: well it is in scheme anyway
2014-11-11T20:15:56Z xyh: DGASAU: it is
2014-11-11T20:16:01Z DGASAU: No, it isn't.
2014-11-11T20:16:11Z DGASAU: It is about TCE changing semantics on machines with finite memory.
2014-11-11T20:16:27Z xyh: TCE ? :)
2014-11-11T20:16:35Z ecraven: tail call elimination
2014-11-11T20:16:47Z xyh: DGASAU: "right or wrong" is subjective :P
2014-11-11T20:17:10Z ecraven: only sometimes :)
2014-11-11T20:17:24Z taylanub: xyh: once you get sufficiently used to the idea, non-TCO languages seem "wrong," yes.
2014-11-11T20:17:33Z DGASAU: When you try to debug programs that don't give you backtraces, you'll understand that TCE isn't about right or wrong.
2014-11-11T20:17:41Z turbofail: a scheme implementation without TCE is non-subjectively wrong
2014-11-11T20:17:55Z xyh: turbofail: lol ..
2014-11-11T20:18:19Z taylanub: DGASAU: under TCO you can still save stack frames up to a given depth.  and if you implement your looping constructs on top of TCO, that means you get stack frames of previous iterations of your loops :)
2014-11-11T20:18:44Z taylanub: it's really amazing; TCO makes stack traces *better* after all, indirectly.  MIT/GNU Scheme implements that; I don't know what other systems do.
2014-11-11T20:19:03Z DGASAU: Only under some additional assumtions.
2014-11-11T20:19:18Z taylanub: the implementation has to implement it, yes
2014-11-11T20:19:32Z DGASAU: You can implement loops directly instead, and have nice stack traces without a lot of weirdness.
2014-11-11T20:19:33Z taylanub: it happens naturally if you just implement the "save up to n stack frames" though
2014-11-11T20:19:58Z taylanub: DGASAU: using looping constructs based on GOTO will not give you frames of previous iterations
2014-11-11T20:20:23Z xyh: taylanub:  `` save stack frames up to a given depth'' ??
2014-11-11T20:20:38Z taylanub: xyh: do you know what a stack frame is?
2014-11-11T20:21:32Z xyh: taylanub: another pointer?
2014-11-11T20:22:41Z taylanub: xyh: as an abstact notion, I mean
2014-11-11T20:23:01Z xyh: taylanub: no I do not know
2014-11-11T20:23:20Z xyh: taylanub: for local vars ?
2014-11-11T20:23:52Z taylanub: while a function is being executed, you're in the "frame" of that function.  if you call another function from there, a new frame for that function is stacked on top of the current, and that function is executed there, and when it returns it gives back a value to the frame below.  yes, local variables etc. are in the frame of a function.
2014-11-11T20:24:20Z taylanub: now, when a program crashes, it will often dump out this stack, so you can see which series of function calls led to the point where the program crashed.
2014-11-11T20:25:13Z taylanub: if you do tail-call-elimination, it means that a function sometimes *replaces* (or reuses) its own frame for the function it's calling, instead of stacking that frame on top of its own, so when you later look at the stack dump, the frames of some function calls are missing  (those which tail-called into another function, causing their frame to be replaced by the other)
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2014-11-11T20:27:43Z taylanub: that can make debugging harder, but you can make the implementation intentionally keep around a limited number of frames to aid in debugging.  if you do that, and if the looping constructs of your language are based on tail-recursive functions, then you will also have "frames" of individual iterations of your loops, which conventional non-TCO languages don't give you
2014-11-11T20:28:42Z taylanub: xyh: more highly-interesting information can be found in http://funcall.blogspot.de/2009/04/you-knew-id-say-something.html and the follow-up blog posts with the same title (it goes up to part 5 IIRC)
2014-11-11T20:29:09Z xyh: thank you so muck taylanub :)
2014-11-11T20:29:14Z taylanub: np
2014-11-11T20:30:17Z xyh: do we have a clog :P
2014-11-11T20:30:37Z taylanub: clog?
2014-11-11T20:31:12Z xyh: channel log
2014-11-11T20:31:27Z taylanub: oh, no idea
2014-11-11T20:31:37Z taylanub: I have private logs, pretty much 24/7...
2014-11-11T20:31:37Z xyh: oh! I found it http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/scheme/
2014-11-11T20:31:41Z taylanub: neat
2014-11-11T20:37:06Z ecraven: taylanub: nice link, thanks :)
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2014-11-11T20:46:15Z xyh: taylanub: I am new programer I have never do a debug like this.
2014-11-11T20:46:24Z xyh: what is bad about implement local variables [6 at most] in the following way ::
2014-11-11T20:46:24Z xyh: instead of the main argument-stack, I use 6 more argument-stacks.
2014-11-11T20:46:24Z xyh: functions still use the main argument-stack to pass arguments.
2014-11-11T20:46:24Z xyh: at every beginning of the function call,
2014-11-11T20:46:24Z xyh: the function fetchs the arguments from the main argument-stack into the 6 stacks.
2014-11-11T20:46:49Z xyh: (except the bad that the number of local variables can not be more then 6.)
2014-11-11T20:47:43Z taylanub: xyh: are you implementing an interpreter or so?
2014-11-11T20:47:51Z xyh: taylanub: yes
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2014-11-11T20:50:53Z taylanub: I don't know much about that.  Implementing a basic lexically scoped language seems simple though, especially a meta-circular evaluator.
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2014-11-11T20:51:26Z mark_weaver: I haven't read the whole backlog, but in the context of Scheme, it's a mistake to call it "tail call optimization", because the word "optimization" suggests that it's optional.  In Scheme, it's a matter of semantics, not optimization.  Calls in tail position are actually GOTOs with arguments.
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2014-11-11T20:52:15Z xyh: mark_weaver: ok, sorry about the term miss usage
2014-11-11T20:52:33Z xyh: * mis-usage
2014-11-11T20:52:56Z mark_weaver: no worries, it's a common mistake.
2014-11-11T20:53:22Z xyh: is "miss usage" an english phrase at all ?
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2014-11-11T20:54:29Z mark_weaver: no, but "misused" is a word.
2014-11-11T20:54:42Z xyh: taylanub: the "lexically scope" is achieved by stack frames ?
2014-11-11T20:55:13Z DGASAU: xyh: not necessarily.
2014-11-11T20:55:17Z mark_weaver: in the general case, scheme activation frames must be allocated on the heap, because of first-class continuations.
2014-11-11T20:55:51Z DGASAU: You may have no traditional stack frames at all.
2014-11-11T20:55:54Z xyh: mark_weaver: even with CPS ?
2014-11-11T20:55:56Z DGASAU: E.g. CHICKEN.
2014-11-11T20:55:59Z mark_weaver: however, it is a worthwhile optimization to detect when it is safe to allocate frames on the stack.
2014-11-11T20:56:19Z vanila: that optimization is really hard :(
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2014-11-11T20:56:48Z turbofail: it's hard to get it right all the time, but it's not so hard to detect some more obvious cases
2014-11-11T20:57:02Z mark_weaver: well, when you use Cheney-on-the-MTA, as Chicken does, then the stack is not really a stack at all, because you never pop.  instead, it is best thought of a nursery for a generational GC.
2014-11-11T20:57:07Z xyh: DGASAU: I just had planed to study the CHICKEN implementation recently :P
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2014-11-11T20:57:19Z vanila: Cheney-on-the-MTA is true genius
2014-11-11T20:57:39Z vanila: this algorithm is so hard but it just sidesteps that entirely
2014-11-11T20:57:49Z xyh: vanila: Cheney-on-the-MTA ? chicken's author ?
2014-11-11T20:58:05Z vanila: yes
2014-11-11T20:58:06Z mark_weaver: Cheney on the MTA was not invented by chicken's author.
2014-11-11T20:58:07Z taylanub: vanila: *ingenius :)
2014-11-11T20:58:51Z xyh: Cheney-on-the-MTA is the chicken implementation tech ?
2014-11-11T20:58:57Z vanila: yes
2014-11-11T20:59:18Z xyh: taylanub: ingenius means "not genius" ?
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2014-11-11T20:59:43Z taylanub: xyh: a genius is a person.  things that aren't persons can be ingenius (like "made by a genius")
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2014-11-11T21:00:07Z taylanub: (well, "a genius person" is a person.  it's an adjective.)
2014-11-11T21:00:16Z xyh: :P
2014-11-11T21:00:29Z cojy: taylanub: what about brilliant?
2014-11-11T21:00:45Z xyh: whois cojy
2014-11-11T21:00:55Z cojy: hi
2014-11-11T21:01:13Z taylanub: .oO( hm, "genius" is a noun too after all.  linguistics is hard :P )
2014-11-11T21:01:38Z taylanub: cojy: that seems to be strictly an adjective
2014-11-11T21:02:12Z vanila: One insight I learned about TCO from trying to write a scheme compiler is that it can help with garbage collection too
2014-11-11T21:02:13Z mark_weaver: fwiw, "genius" as an adjective sounds awkward to me.  I think of it as primarily a noun.
2014-11-11T21:02:25Z taylanub: actually "genius" seems to be *primarily* a noun.  indeed.
2014-11-11T21:02:29Z vanila: if you use the stack as a root for GC, then TCO removes unneeded stack frames which can help you clear away more garbage
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2014-11-11T21:02:47Z taylanub: back to scheme :)
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2014-11-11T21:06:37Z xyh: vanila: I have only implemented a GC as a heap, how to implement it as a stack "use the stack as a root for GC" ?
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2014-11-11T21:06:53Z DGASAU: xyh: I think that either Scheme or O'Caml bibliography mentions a number of different approaches how to compile FPL.
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2014-11-11T21:07:46Z taylanub: xyh: the "Cheney on the MTA" method is detailed here: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html
2014-11-11T21:08:15Z cojy: xyh: well a GC needs a root to know where to start traversing for live objects
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2014-11-11T21:09:01Z xyh: cojy: Oh! I see.
2014-11-11T21:09:08Z xyh: taylanub: thx again :)
2014-11-11T21:09:21Z cojy: thinkgs on the stack are necessarily live so its a great root
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2014-11-11T21:09:43Z DGASAU: That's not true.
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2014-11-11T21:10:00Z cojy: DGASAU: how isn't it?
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2014-11-11T21:10:48Z vanila: also good about MTA http://www.more-magic.net/posts/internals-gc.html
2014-11-11T21:10:50Z DGASAU: Those objects in current stack frame that are no longer referenced by program are not "live".
2014-11-11T21:11:48Z cojy: DGASAU: yea but things on the stack isnt the same as things in the current stack frame
2014-11-11T21:12:24Z cojy: i guess the stack frame might still be on the stack so that is a caveat if you design it that way
2014-11-11T21:12:49Z cojy: but even then it will work fine just be delayed by 1 frame of execution
2014-11-11T21:12:52Z DGASAU: Same applies to other things on stack.
2014-11-11T21:13:13Z DGASAU: The point of GC is not to find which objects are live,
2014-11-11T21:13:28Z DGASAU: the point is to find which objects are dead, garbage.
2014-11-11T21:13:31Z vanila: so the stuff on the stack would be function calll parameters
2014-11-11T21:13:33Z DGASAU: Hence the name.
2014-11-11T21:13:43Z vanila: if a procedure was like
2014-11-11T21:13:50Z DGASAU: (define (k x y) x)
2014-11-11T21:13:56Z vanila: (define (foo x y) (do-stuff-with x) (do-stuff-with y))
2014-11-11T21:14:02Z cojy: DGASAU: they aren't live in the same sense as how you want to mark things on the heap
2014-11-11T21:14:05Z vanila: then x might be dead during doing-stuff-with-y
2014-11-11T21:14:14Z cojy: but they ARE live on the machine
2014-11-11T21:14:33Z vanila: ofcourse if you do a tail call into do-stuff-with y then that x parameter will not be on the stack anymore
2014-11-11T21:14:42Z vanila: this is the sense in which TCO improves GC
2014-11-11T21:14:48Z DGASAU: cojy: in the definition above, if you have copied object to pass it as value "y", you have created garbage.
2014-11-11T21:15:01Z DGASAU: It is obvious that it is garbage from the very beginning.
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2014-11-11T21:17:10Z DGASAU: You can argue that "y" is referenced from "environment",
2014-11-11T21:17:24Z DGASAU: but that reminds how Berkeley argued about objects of real world
2014-11-11T21:17:38Z DGASAU: not disappearing because they are observed by God.
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2014-11-11T21:19:02Z DGASAU: (Or what philosopher was that? AFAICR, it was Berkeley.)
2014-11-11T21:20:03Z xyh: the only way to find which objects are garbage, is to find which objects are not garbage.
2014-11-11T21:20:22Z DGASAU: No.
2014-11-11T21:20:31Z DGASAU: Your understanding is wrong.
2014-11-11T21:20:55Z vanila: xyh, I think that's true
2014-11-11T21:20:56Z DGASAU: In the example above "y" is always garbage, and you can see it from the very beginning.
2014-11-11T21:21:09Z vanila: trying to track live objects with reference counting fails when you have a loop
2014-11-11T21:21:13Z cojy: DGASAU: do you have any code i can read to helpe me understand your point of view on this
2014-11-11T21:21:46Z DGASAU: You find garbage by tracking live objects _plus_(!) some objects that may be live.
2014-11-11T21:22:01Z vanila: there are other types of GC which i haven't studied yet
2014-11-11T21:22:04Z DGASAU: What remains are objects that _cannot_ be live.
2014-11-11T21:22:22Z cojy: DGASAU: is it impossible to have perfect precision?
2014-11-11T21:22:43Z taylanub: cojy: yeah, it reduces to the halting problem.  Felleisen has an amazing paper on the abstractoin of tracing GC.
2014-11-11T21:24:17Z DGASAU: That's easy to demonstrate, actually.
2014-11-11T21:25:08Z DGASAU: In particular, you know that there exist algorithms that cannot be proven to yield particular value for particular input.
2014-11-11T21:25:32Z DGASAU: (define (k' x y) (if (a x) x y))
2014-11-11T21:26:05Z DGASAU: If "a" is such an algorithm and always true, but you cannot prove it,
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2014-11-11T21:26:11Z DGASAU: then "y" is always garbage.
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2014-11-11T21:27:59Z xyh: in my implementation after (define k (lambda (x y) x)) and (k 1 2), you can still find the 2 from k.
2014-11-11T21:28:42Z xyh: arguments of the last apply is save
2014-11-11T21:29:05Z xyh: you always can check what are they
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2014-11-11T21:31:47Z DGASAU: You can modify example in such a way that everything happens nested deeper.
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2014-11-11T21:35:17Z xyh: taylanub:  about the "6 local variables without stack frames but with 6 more stacks" far above, you said ``Implementing a basic lexically scoped language seems simple though''. you mean ?
2014-11-11T21:37:01Z DGASAU: xyh: if you perform CPT, you compile your language into FSM-like representation already.
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2014-11-11T21:37:28Z DGASAU: If you resolve references at the same time, you have lexical scoping.
2014-11-11T21:38:01Z xyh: CPT ?
2014-11-11T21:38:18Z DGASAU: Transformation into CPS.
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2014-11-11T21:44:41Z xyh: DGASAU: the only reason I do my forth-like language, is that it is very easy to be understanded completely.   a CPT or a big compile-time optimization will break this feature.   so, no CPT.   I maybe implement call/cc in the old way.  lexical-scoping is also implemented in another way.
2014-11-11T21:45:47Z DGASAU: Ehm...
2014-11-11T21:45:57Z vanila: good idea
2014-11-11T21:46:29Z DGASAU: The whole point in not doing Forth-like languages is that you don't want to program in essentially machine code.
2014-11-11T21:47:17Z DGASAU: You can sit down and write Forth implementation within one day.
2014-11-11T21:47:27Z xyh: DGASAU: well, views about this point is subjective.
2014-11-11T21:47:33Z DGASAU: Yet it is really horrible to program in such a language.
2014-11-11T21:47:33Z xyh: * are subjective
2014-11-11T21:47:45Z DGASAU: No, they are not.
2014-11-11T21:48:10Z vanila: yes one of the best things about scheme is you can understand it all at once
2014-11-11T21:48:26Z DGASAU: You can look around and see that all languages that used RPN died out
2014-11-11T21:48:40Z DGASAU: _despite_ being quite popular at some point in the past.
2014-11-11T21:50:12Z xyh: DGASAU: I do know the bad part of that kind of languages. and popular at current time ain't proving anything to me.
2014-11-11T21:50:51Z DGASAU: Steep decline in popularity is a very strong proof.
2014-11-11T21:51:14Z DGASAU: If you don't understand it, then you'll have problems working as engineer.
2014-11-11T21:51:38Z DGASAU: Maybe it isn't a proof, still it is very strong argument.
2014-11-11T21:52:11Z DGASAU: Popular ideas are not rejected without strong reasons.
2014-11-11T21:53:43Z mark_weaver: xyh: if you guarantee to save all arguments of procedure calls that have not yet returned, that is in direct violation of the proper tail call requirements of Scheme.
2014-11-11T21:55:04Z mark_weaver: but maybe I misunderstood what you wrote
2014-11-11T21:55:51Z xyh: mark_weaver: I ll try to restate it if you care
2014-11-11T21:56:20Z mark_weaver: okay
2014-11-11T22:00:51Z xyh: it is about "local var in stacks, but do not use stack-frames." (just for fun)
2014-11-11T22:00:52Z xyh: I use a "main-argument-stack" & 6 more "other-argument-stacks".
2014-11-11T22:00:52Z xyh: arguments returned by a function is saved in the main-argument-stack.
2014-11-11T22:00:52Z xyh: when a function apply to these arguments, it fetchs the arguments from main-argument-stack into 6 other-argument-stacks.
2014-11-11T22:01:35Z xyh: just this
2014-11-11T22:02:15Z xyh: am I re-inventing something again ?
2014-11-11T22:02:25Z mark_weaver: you use 7 stacks?
2014-11-11T22:02:45Z mark_weaver: well, I don't understand, but it's probably not important.  thanks anyway :)
2014-11-11T22:02:55Z DGASAU: I don't get the idea, actually.
2014-11-11T22:03:18Z DGASAU: I still think that it is over-complicated while solutions to the problem are well-known.
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2014-11-11T22:04:41Z xyh: mark_weaver: my bad  if you still don't understand :P
2014-11-11T22:04:49Z DGASAU: xyh: engineering is the science of combining known approaches into functional product.
2014-11-11T22:05:04Z xyh: DGASAU: I am trying to add local vars to Forth :P
2014-11-11T22:05:10Z DGASAU sighs.
2014-11-11T22:05:43Z DGASAU: What's wrong with the standard approach?
2014-11-11T22:07:19Z xyh: DGASAU: it is not wrong. but forth can not use it to implement local vars.
2014-11-11T22:07:49Z DGASAU: ???
2014-11-11T22:07:58Z DGASAU: Local variables are solved problem in Forth.
2014-11-11T22:08:19Z xyh: with stack frames ?
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2014-11-11T22:08:48Z DGASAU: There exist several approaches, but the problem is solved.
2014-11-11T22:09:08Z DGASAU: Yes, you can create a stack frame essentially.
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2014-11-11T22:09:23Z xyh: DGASAU: I ll look into it
2014-11-11T22:09:41Z DGASAU: In any case, you're wasting your time trying to pursue the road that leads nowhere.
2014-11-11T22:10:12Z xyh: I know some bad part of scheme too. that is partly the reason I implement my language. I ll point out it here someday.
2014-11-11T22:11:16Z DGASAU: If you want more conventional language, implement subset of Scheme.
2014-11-11T22:11:51Z DGASAU: Drop unlimited continuations, and you'll have enough power in your hands still.
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2014-11-11T22:13:07Z DGASAU: In particular, with some extra effort, you should be able to implement delimited continuations within your language.
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2014-11-11T22:15:13Z xyh: your criticisms are very valuable to me [those about optimization and lot of stuffs]. but I still believe (secretly and strongly) my language will be one of the best and the most interesting language.
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2014-11-11T22:15:41Z DGASAU: Critical thinking is important. :)
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