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2014-10-28T06:48:34Z ProbonoBonobo: Anyone found any R tutorials aimed at Schemers/Lispers?
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2014-10-28T15:18:09Z alexey: Hi all! Can I ask (and not for the flame war!) what are you using as Scheme IDE? Or maybe being more specific, how to setup Emacs + SLIME with Scheme? Or are there better alternatives?
2014-10-28T15:18:40Z LeoNerd: I just run vim
2014-10-28T15:19:55Z alexey: Hmm... I just got so used to all the goodies of SLIME (autocomplete, eldoc on functions)
2014-10-28T15:20:35Z alexey: chicken sets itself up with SLIME, but what if one wants to use another Scheme...
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2014-10-28T15:32:58Z taylanub: alexey: Emacs + Geiser works with Racket and Guile.  don't know about other Schemes within Emacs.
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2014-10-28T16:11:27Z DGASAU: taylanub: JFYI, "copyleft" means that only similar geeks or big corporations can use your code. This actually hurts your code.
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2014-10-28T16:12:41Z taylanub: corporations abusing GPL code is a problem.  giving up entirely and letting them use your code unrestricted and make proprietary versions is not exactly the best solution.
2014-10-28T16:13:08Z civodul: when one chooses copyleft, they do so to guarantee that the freedoms they give to their users will be preserved
2014-10-28T16:14:30Z taylanub: (by the way my previous implication that LGPL is not copyleft was wrong; it still copylefts the library)
2014-10-28T16:16:08Z DGASAU: taylanub: corporations will always abuse it.
2014-10-28T16:16:25Z DGASAU: You cannot compete with them in this.
2014-10-28T16:16:59Z taylanub: so I should allow them to abuse it even more, or what's the point of using non-copyleft? :)
2014-10-28T16:17:07Z DGASAU: No.
2014-10-28T16:17:42Z DGASAU: You should allow non-coprorations use your code, if you want it to be helpful for your fellows colleagues.
2014-10-28T16:18:03Z DGASAU: The rule is simple:
2014-10-28T16:18:16Z DGASAU: copyleft -> only coprorations can use your code,
2014-10-28T16:18:24Z taylanub: sounds like bull
2014-10-28T16:18:27Z dlowe: We have a lot of custom home router firmwares due to the abuses of corporations.
2014-10-28T16:18:30Z DGASAU: non-copyleft -> some good fellows can use it too.
2014-10-28T16:18:54Z DGASAU: That's the reality. Deal with it.
2014-10-28T16:19:18Z taylanub: yeah, that must be why Apple stopped updating GCC after 4.2 and now switched to LLVM
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2014-10-28T16:19:49Z DGASAU: Still, this lets other good guys (e.g. FreeBSD) use the code as well.
2014-10-28T16:20:09Z taylanub: FreeBSD is absolutely free to use as much GPL code as they like.  as is anyone.
2014-10-28T16:20:11Z DGASAU: And the whole lot of people in smaller companies too.
2014-10-28T16:20:28Z DGASAU: If FreeBSD starts using more GPL, less people will use it.
2014-10-28T16:20:40Z taylanub: yeah, like Apple
2014-10-28T16:20:46Z DGASAU: Apple doesn't use FreeBSD.
2014-10-28T16:20:47Z dlowe: Nobody is going to say anything new about this topic that hasn't been said over a decade ago.
2014-10-28T16:20:52Z dlowe: It's a lame topic.
2014-10-28T16:21:37Z taylanub: don't know if Apple still pulls from any BSD kernels, but Darwin and XNU, you know.
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2014-10-28T16:21:48Z DGASAU: Oh, really?
2014-10-28T16:22:13Z taylanub: also I agree with dlowe.  I'm not even an expert on this topic; let's drop the flamewar.
2014-10-28T16:22:29Z dlowe: Seriously, this is emacs vs vi stuff.
2014-10-28T16:22:34Z DGASAU: What I have noticed when I worked with Darwin, is that it doesn't even pull bug fixes from BSDs.
2014-10-28T16:22:55Z DGASAU: dlowe is wrong.
2014-10-28T16:22:57Z taylanub: dlowe: well it's politics so a tad bit more serious
2014-10-28T16:23:08Z DGASAU: There're other facts that have appeared during the last decade.
2014-10-28T16:23:22Z DGASAU: E.g. (L)GPLv3.
2014-10-28T16:23:26Z taylanub: DGASAU: then sum them up and write an article instead of flaming people on IRC
2014-10-28T16:23:48Z dlowe: seriously. You could at least point at Scheme projects.
2014-10-28T16:24:16Z DGASAU: For instance, if I would have some space for Scheme in a project for big corporation,
2014-10-28T16:24:37Z dlowe: non-hypothetical Scheme projects. :p
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2014-10-28T16:24:38Z DGASAU: I could have some chances to push something like Chicken (and I did once).
2014-10-28T16:25:51Z DGASAU: The deciding reasons were Chicken being free software without strings attached and non-critical (comparatively) task.
2014-10-28T16:27:37Z taylanub: DGASAU: did you ship a product or what?  you could have used Guile (LGPL); would it have been impossible to optionally provide object code which the client can link to their own version of Guile?  well, Guile uses shared libs even.
2014-10-28T16:27:59Z taylanub: and I'm not even scolding you for not making your whole application GPL :)
2014-10-28T16:31:31Z DGASAU: Yes, we did ship it.
2014-10-28T16:31:39Z DGASAU: No, I couldn't have used Guile.
2014-10-28T16:32:38Z taylanub: because it's LGPL?
2014-10-28T16:32:41Z DGASAU: Yes.
2014-10-28T16:32:43Z taylanub: why?
2014-10-28T16:32:54Z DGASAU: Because LGPL is no different to GPL in practical aspects.
2014-10-28T16:33:55Z taylanub: it is.  you can ship proprietary .o files that can be linked to an LGPL static library; you can ship an executable that dynamically loads an LGPL shared library.
2014-10-28T16:34:02Z DGASAU: No, it isn't.
2014-10-28T16:34:08Z DGASAU: You cannot ship object files.
2014-10-28T16:34:12Z taylanub: why not?
2014-10-28T16:34:25Z DGASAU: Because this is the sign of non-professionalism.
2014-10-28T16:34:40Z taylanub: huh?  you don't even do it by default; you do it if anyone asks you for them.
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2014-10-28T16:35:07Z DGASAU: For start, I don't know what jurisdiction you're in,
2014-10-28T16:35:31Z DGASAU: while this plays a major role.
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2014-10-28T16:35:59Z taylanub: I wouldn't be surprised though if many people with such silly "arguments" against the GPL don't know much about the linking model of C so it seems like unusual black magic to them when you say they must provide .o files.
2014-10-28T16:36:24Z DGASAU: Even if you ignore those issues, customers expect product to be in a state ready to run.
2014-10-28T16:36:29Z taylanub: what issues?
2014-10-28T16:36:47Z DGASAU: Issues that in many jurisdictions LGPL and GPL are the same.
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2014-10-28T16:37:55Z taylanub: as I said; you need to *offer* .o files when asked; you're still free to ship whatever you want by default.
2014-10-28T16:38:06Z taylanub: (someone correct me if I'm wrong; not many people seem to understand the LGPL)
2014-10-28T16:38:22Z DGASAU: That's another problem with GPL.
2014-10-28T16:38:41Z taylanub: yeah, "politics are hard, let's go shopping"
2014-10-28T16:38:42Z DGASAU: Software engineers have very vague knowledge of law.
2014-10-28T16:39:21Z taylanub: I like what Stallman (IIRC) has to say on that: if you don't take care of politics, politics will take care of you.
2014-10-28T16:39:42Z DGASAU: GPL and LGPL are written by lawyers from USA for lawyers in USA.
2014-10-28T16:39:49Z DGASAU: That wasn't Stallman.
2014-10-28T16:39:52Z DGASAU: That was Lenin.
2014-10-28T16:39:56Z taylanub: haha
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2014-10-28T16:40:02Z DGASAU: (At least.)
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2014-10-28T16:40:54Z taylanub: here's it: "Value your freedom or you will lose it, teaches history. "Don't bother us with politics," respond those who don't want to learn."  http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman
2014-10-28T16:41:21Z taylanub: well I remember something slightly different too.  anyway.
2014-10-28T16:41:24Z DGASAU: I can find a lot of similar quotes from Lenin.
2014-10-28T16:42:30Z DGASAU: Anyway, there's one fundamental problem with complex USA-style contracts (whether open or not) like (L)GPL.
2014-10-28T16:43:16Z DGASAU: First, you don't know law to the extent that you can defend your position in court.
2014-10-28T16:43:19Z taylanub: by the way your focus seems to have shifted from the GPL being harmful to the GPL not being fine-tuned for USA-external jurisdictions.
2014-10-28T16:43:34Z DGASAU: No.
2014-10-28T16:44:01Z DGASAU: Even in USA you have the same problem.
2014-10-28T16:44:32Z DGASAU: You're going to deal with laws that differ from state to state and that differ on state and on federal level.
2014-10-28T16:44:57Z taylanub: can you cite me a case where someone offered .o files that link to an LGPL static lib or shipped an application that loads an LGPL shared lib, and they still got issues?
2014-10-28T16:45:29Z DGASAU: This assumes that the legal system is based on precedence.
2014-10-28T16:45:32Z taylanub: or is your problem with people who do *less* than that and *don't* get issues (i.e. the LGPL failing to reach its goal) ?
2014-10-28T16:45:55Z DGASAU: For start, lack of such a precedent doesn't mean anything.
2014-10-28T16:46:39Z DGASAU: Second, it means even less under souvereign legal systems.
2014-10-28T16:47:11Z DGASAU: For instance, consider that I ship firmware.
2014-10-28T16:47:25Z DGASAU: I ship some image of restricted size.
2014-10-28T16:47:50Z DGASAU: How would offering object files to customer help the latter in reconstructing the image?
2014-10-28T16:48:18Z DGASAU: Does inability of customer to reconstruct the image from object files invalidate sublicensing?
2014-10-28T16:50:08Z taylanub: I gotta go to catch a bus now.  I don't know about your question.  generally you have to not make it impossible for them to relink/recompile stuff; no idea how that applies to firmware etc.
2014-10-28T16:50:09Z taylanub: laters
2014-10-28T16:50:14Z DGASAU: If yes, then what am I to do in order to be able to sublicense LGPL code?
2014-10-28T16:51:31Z DGASAU: "Generally" is too vague word for a commercial enterprise.
2014-10-28T16:51:41Z DGASAU: If it is small company, it brings in a lot of risk.
2014-10-28T16:51:50Z ijp: hire a lawyer
2014-10-28T16:52:32Z DGASAU: Small company cannot hire a team of good lawyers that a larger company can hire.
2014-10-28T16:52:48Z DGASAU: In fact, small company usually cannot afford hiring lawyer.
2014-10-28T16:53:16Z DGASAU: Basically, with words "hire a lawyer" you've reached the end:
2014-10-28T16:53:22Z ijp: but they can afford to hire someone who is not a lawyer, who spends their time arguing legal matters on irc?
2014-10-28T16:53:40Z DGASAU: in practice they mean that LGPL is no-no for a small commercial enterprise.
2014-10-28T16:55:21Z DGASAU: I have seen small company renaming their product so as to prevent even stepping into gray area where some big company from completely different industry wouldn't have any pretext for trademark dispute.
2014-10-28T16:58:53Z DGASAU: Step back a little.
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2014-10-28T16:59:56Z zap`: Beginner's Scheme question: Say I have a function (foo) that returns the list (1 2 3). How would I use that as an argument for another procedure that accepts lists as arguments, such as sort-list? If I wanted to sort those numbers, I could run (sort-list '(1 2 3) >), which only works when I quote (1 2 3). Otherwise I get a type error. (Why is that?) So I can't just run (sort-list (foo) >), and I can't do (sort-list '(foo) >). How would
2014-10-28T16:59:56Z zap`: I do this?
2014-10-28T17:01:35Z DGASAU: zap`: whenever you write "(a b c)" it means "call procedure a with two arguments, b and c, respectively."
2014-10-28T17:01:44Z DGASAU: "(1 2 3)" is not an exception.
2014-10-28T17:02:25Z DGASAU: You can just run "(sort-list (foo) >)", unless you're doing something strange.
2014-10-28T17:03:21Z ijp: zap`: (sort-list (foo) >) shold certainly work
2014-10-28T17:03:59Z ijp: can you post the code that gives that error? (with error message)
2014-10-28T17:04:54Z DGASAU: zap`: Besides, "'(1 2 3)" may produce immutable list, while "sort-list" may expect mutable one.
2014-10-28T17:05:14Z DGASAU: zap`: this is common mistake in CL.
2014-10-28T17:05:34Z DGASAU: zap`: you may want to create a copy of your literal list.
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2014-10-28T17:08:34Z zap`: I'm working on some Project Euler stuff. In this case, I have a list, "number", that has 1000 elements. I have a procedure "prod-ls" which returns a list where every element is the product of the next thirteen elements in "number". I want to sort that list by calling "(sort-list (prod-ls number >))". It says
2014-10-28T17:08:34Z zap`: <unnamed port>:671:20: In procedure #<procedure 1295080 at <current input>:671:0 ()>:
2014-10-28T17:08:34Z zap`: <unnamed port>:671:20: Wrong type to apply: [...]
2014-10-28T17:09:45Z ijp: the problem there is that sort-list is only called with one argument
2014-10-28T17:09:55Z ijp: and prod-ls with two
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2014-10-28T17:10:49Z zap`: Sorry, typo. When I call it as "(sort-list (prod-ls (number)) >)" I get the same error.
2014-10-28T17:11:21Z ijp: zap`: where number is an actual number?
2014-10-28T17:11:25Z ijp: then that's your problem
2014-10-28T17:11:35Z zap`: number is a list of numbers.
2014-10-28T17:11:48Z ijp: lists of numbers are not functions
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2014-10-28T17:12:12Z ijp: (number) means "call the procedure number"
2014-10-28T17:12:50Z zap`: (prod-ls number) works as expected. It returns a list. How do I use that list as an argument for sort-list?
2014-10-28T17:13:16Z ijp: (sort-list (prod-ls number) >)
2014-10-28T17:14:10Z zap`: I still get the same error:
2014-10-28T17:14:10Z zap`: ERROR: In procedure sort-list:
2014-10-28T17:14:10Z zap`: ERROR: In procedure sort-list: Wrong type argument in position 1: (5000940 0 0 ...
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2014-10-28T17:15:19Z ijp: does your scheme expect the list of numbers first, or second?
2014-10-28T17:16:17Z zap`: I'm using Guile. The syntax for sort-list is "sort-list items less"
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2014-10-28T17:17:05Z LeoNerd: Try a tiny test case first; see what  (sort-list '(1 3 2) <)   does
2014-10-28T17:17:34Z zap`: (1 2 3)
2014-10-28T17:17:52Z DGASAU: Improper list?
2014-10-28T17:18:07Z zap`: What do you mean?
2014-10-28T17:18:27Z DGASAU: What exactly does your "(prod-ls number)" produce?
2014-10-28T17:18:34Z ijp: proper: (1 2 3)   improper: (1 2 . 3)
2014-10-28T17:18:56Z zap`: I guess it is improper.
2014-10-28T17:18:59Z LeoNerd: A proper list has a nil as its final cdr
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2014-10-28T17:20:50Z zap`: I'll try fixing that to produce a proper list.
2014-10-28T17:21:10Z LeoNerd: Well... first see if it -has- one
2014-10-28T17:21:24Z LeoNerd: No point blindly stabbing in the dark; inspect it to find ut
2014-10-28T17:22:40Z zap`: LeoNerd: (prod-ls number) returns an improper list:
2014-10-28T17:22:40Z zap`: (5000940 0 0 0 ...  0 . 0)
2014-10-28T17:23:12Z LeoNerd: Ahah. Well, there's your bug
2014-10-28T17:24:24Z DGASAU coughs.
2014-10-28T17:24:30Z DGASAU: Too much debugging recently.
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2014-10-28T17:27:56Z zap`: Thanks guys.
2014-10-28T17:30:41Z zap`: That worked.
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2014-10-28T17:49:12Z DGASAU: taylanub: in the end, the question of licence is about your preferences, sure.
2014-10-28T17:49:22Z DGASAU: Yet you should understand consequences of your choice.
2014-10-28T17:50:11Z DGASAU: Once you publish your code under GPL or LGPL, it helps you to get some (quite dubious IMO) credit in organisations like FSF,
2014-10-28T17:50:46Z DGASAU: but on another hand it locks your code out of software development practice
2014-10-28T17:51:20Z DGASAU: by limiting its domain to yourself, perhaps some hobbyists, perhaps FSF, and that's all.
2014-10-28T17:52:43Z DGASAU: Given that you write the code in a fringe language, this harms your code and the community around it.
2014-10-28T17:53:07Z DGASAU: It becomes a lot harder to spend paid time on your code.
2014-10-28T17:54:41Z gnomon: Wait, what?
2014-10-28T17:54:46Z DGASAU: If you have free software (BSD, MIT, and similar terms),
2014-10-28T17:54:47Z gnomon reads DGASAU's scrollback
2014-10-28T17:54:57Z DGASAU: you have at least some chance that you can use it in some company.
2014-10-28T17:55:00Z DGASAU: Usually small one.
2014-10-28T17:55:56Z taylanub: DGASAU: if your customer has no technical means of reconstructing the firmware image which is a linkage of proprietary object files and an LGPL library, then yes, you're infringing on the LGPL as far as I know.  the customer must have a means of reconstructing the firmware.  your proprietary components must not prevent the customer from doing that, and neither must the platform they're for.  this
2014-10-28T17:55:56Z taylanub: is why, for example, you cannot use LGPL for iOS apps on the Apple App Store, which provides no means for iOS users to compile their own apps.  (also note that VLC is infringing on this and nobody cares so far)  I agree with this; platforms like the app store which are totally *based* on taking away the user's control should be boycotted.
2014-10-28T17:56:22Z gnomon is caught up
2014-10-28T17:56:50Z DGASAU: taylanub: there's gray area when customer lacks know-how.
2014-10-28T17:56:54Z taylanub: I gotta go again in five minutes BTW  (and don't intend to discuss this for all that long...)
2014-10-28T17:57:14Z DGASAU: For a fringe technology "know-how" becomes important to the point of survival.
2014-10-28T17:57:40Z gnomon: DGASAU, you're retreading very, very old territory, and independent of the question of whether your argument has any merit, you're not doing your adopted stance any favours by expressing it as you're doing right now.  Maybe try again later?
2014-10-28T17:57:42Z taylanub: DGASAU: then point them to documentation.  your only responsibility is making it technically possible for them to reconstruct the application from your proprietary components and the customer's own version of the LGPL library.
2014-10-28T17:57:46Z taylanub: you're
2014-10-28T17:57:57Z taylanub: er, your was just fine
2014-10-28T17:58:04Z DGASAU: taylanub: point them to which documentation?
2014-10-28T17:58:08Z DGASAU: Non-existing one?
2014-10-28T17:58:12Z taylanub: DGASAU: of the compiler, whatever
2014-10-28T17:58:23Z taylanub: DGASAU: they cannot sue you over their own ignorance
2014-10-28T17:58:32Z DGASAU: Oh, really?
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2014-10-28T17:59:11Z DGASAU: You can construct quite trivial argument against this,
2014-10-28T17:59:33Z DGASAU: are you claiming that the court won't accept that?
2014-10-28T18:00:25Z taylanub: if you point them out "here's the .o files, here's the compiler documentation, and every non-amateur programmer knows how to make an executable out of these," then yes.
2014-10-28T18:00:41Z DGASAU: In Scheme it isn't like that.
2014-10-28T18:00:54Z DGASAU: There're a lot of things concealed from customer.
2014-10-28T18:01:02Z DGASAU: Your stance sounds this way:
2014-10-28T18:01:37Z DGASAU: "here's the .o files [go find out how we produced those],
2014-10-28T18:01:38Z taylanub: in Scheme it will generally be even easier.  depends on the implementation.  gotta go now, laters.
2014-10-28T18:01:49Z DGASAU: here's the compiler documentation [nearly non-existent],
2014-10-28T18:01:51Z taylanub: the .o files are your proprietary ones, you ship them as-is
2014-10-28T18:01:59Z taylanub: yeah, GCC documentation is non-existent
2014-10-28T18:02:10Z taylanub: laters
2014-10-28T18:02:31Z DGASAU: and every non-amateur programmer [Scheme programmer, i.e. a person who invested a lot of time and obtained know-how]
2014-10-28T18:02:35Z DGASAU: knows how to make an executable out of these,"
2014-10-28T18:02:57Z DGASAU: If you think that changing Guile to GCC changes it significantly, you're mistaken.
2014-10-28T18:03:06Z DGASAU: There're a lot of corner cases in GCC as well.
2014-10-28T18:03:25Z DGASAU: Sometimes changing between minor versions of GCC renders your project unbuildable.
2014-10-28T18:05:10Z DGASAU: Yes, after investing a lot of time you can (theoretically!) find the proper way to link,
2014-10-28T18:05:40Z DGASAU: but this is close to know-how, which court can take into account.
2014-10-28T18:06:29Z DGASAU: In fact, it is worse:
2014-10-28T18:06:59Z DGASAU: usually, software development company spends considerable amount of time
2014-10-28T18:07:11Z DGASAU: to establish build process.
2014-10-28T18:08:08Z DGASAU: In order to follow LGPL terms it needs to spend more time on debugging potential issues for customer.
2014-10-28T18:08:34Z DGASAU: If this work isn't done, court can easily decide in customer's favour.
2014-10-28T18:11:31Z DGASAU: Again, legal risk for software developer that is quite large for smaller companies.
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2014-10-28T19:52:54Z taylanub: DGASAU: I could explain all the ways in which you're wrong, but it wouldn't end the discussion, because you're talking not from legitimate knowledge on any issues with using the (L)GPL, but from fear, uncertainty, doubt, and an awfully entitled standpoint where you reject even the basic responsibility of giving support on how to build and run your software product.  now I gotta go again, and won't
2014-10-28T19:52:54Z taylanub: respond the next time unless you really surprise me.
2014-10-28T19:54:14Z DGASAU: taylanub: you're wrong. :)
2014-10-28T19:54:42Z DGASAU: You follow common beliefs of GPL proponents.
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2014-10-28T19:55:09Z DGASAU: One of them is that licence solves some problem.
2014-10-28T19:55:14Z DGASAU: In fact, it doesn't solve anything.
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2014-10-28T19:55:56Z DGASAU: Licence is a contract, thus it involves more than one party.
2014-10-28T19:56:43Z DGASAU: When legal department of big corporation says "No GPLv3 code in any product,"
2014-10-28T19:56:53Z DGASAU: it is neither fear, nor uncertainty, no doubt.
2014-10-28T19:59:43Z DGASAU: Try estimating risks of using GPLv3 code in smaller company.
2014-10-28T20:03:22Z DGASAU: I can bring up an example of big corporation extorting the source of application shipped.
2014-10-28T20:03:42Z DGASAU: GPL was one of pretenses then. :)
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2014-10-28T20:07:09Z DGASAU: taylanub: do you mean that when some company associated to Russian Railways threatens another company with a case of copyright infringement, it is FUD? ;)
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2014-10-28T20:18:21Z taylanub: no idea what you're talking about but I'm already convinced that the way you're trying to use it in this discussion is indeed FUD.  well, maybe it's ignorance instead.
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2014-10-28T20:46:35Z DGASAU: taylanub: being convinced by propaganda is nice. :)
2014-10-28T20:46:48Z DGASAU: It saves a lot of decision making.
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2014-10-28T20:47:37Z krono: hi
2014-10-28T20:48:26Z krono: does anybody here has a bit knowledge of vicare/ikarus?
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2014-10-28T21:04:43Z taylanub: krono: I only know that the last stable release of Ikarus was 6 years ago according to Wikipedia :\
2014-10-28T21:05:25Z krono: vicare is afaik a fork of ikarus that is r6rs compliant…
2014-10-28T21:05:55Z turbofail: i wonder what abdulaziz ghuloum is up to these days
2014-10-28T21:06:41Z taylanub: ah, I didn't know of vicare  http://marcomaggi.github.io/vicare.html
2014-10-28T21:07:06Z taylanub: haven't heard anything about it during the whole R7RS discussion either.
2014-10-28T21:10:37Z taylanub: DGASAU: it's a little funny you'd say that when you've made a lot of statements that made you look like a deluded anti-GPL fanatic.  do you have any links talking about this Russian Railways issue or any other concrete cases that represent these supposed horrors of the GPL?
2014-10-28T21:12:49Z DGASAU: Why do you insist on presenting you concrete cases?
2014-10-28T21:13:25Z DGASAU: Do you really think that suitcase demonstrates the problem better than threat?
2014-10-28T21:13:32Z vanila: turbofail, rolling in piles of cash
2014-10-28T21:14:42Z DGASAU: In your opinion, it is better when a company gets involved into litigation than settle the issue out of court. Correct?
2014-10-28T21:15:05Z DGASAU: You must have deep pockets then.
2014-10-28T21:15:20Z ecraven: are you gavino?
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2014-10-28T21:15:23Z taylanub: DGASAU: you're just full of hot air.  your "theories" of how the (L)GPL can be abused against a company using them seem to be based on an overly cynical world view where everyone who can afford a good lawyer is coming to sue you.
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2014-10-28T21:15:33Z taylanub: ecraven: nope, doesn't seem so.
2014-10-28T21:15:53Z DGASAU: Oh, so, your lack of experience in the real world is now called "theory". :)
2014-10-28T21:16:09Z DGASAU: The world _is_ cynical, whether you like it or not.
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2014-10-28T21:16:30Z DGASAU: Does term "patent troll" tell you anything?
2014-10-28T21:16:35Z taylanub: did you just contradicted yourself by first saying you needn't show any concrete cases, then claiming that what you talk about is not purely theoretical?
2014-10-28T21:17:10Z taylanub: DGASAU: have you ever heard of an LGPL troll?  because I haven't.
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2014-10-28T21:17:36Z taylanub: no "evil company" out there writes (L)GPL software and then sues anyone using it.  that's too much even for them.
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2014-10-28T21:17:38Z krono: ok…
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2014-10-28T21:18:04Z taylanub: oh well, we gave a wrong impression of the channel
2014-10-28T21:18:08Z DGASAU: taylanub: that's because companies, especially larger ones, are not that stupid.
2014-10-28T21:18:26Z Riastradh: Can you take the licence wars to ##licence-wars?
2014-10-28T21:18:37Z DGASAU: In the case of patents the problem differs that you can violate vaguely defined patents you don't know about.
2014-10-28T21:19:23Z stamourv: turbofail: He's a professor at the American University of Kuwait, last I heard (2009).
2014-10-28T21:19:57Z stamourv: turbofail: My understanding was that he mostly fell off the face of the earth around that time.
2014-10-28T21:20:25Z stamourv: Also, (add1 Riastradh).
2014-10-28T21:20:26Z turbofail: hm
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2014-10-28T21:22:22Z vanila: The GPL is a tool of opression
2014-10-28T21:22:36Z vanila: software freedom is just a myth made to trick people into not buying microsoft windows
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2014-10-28T21:23:44Z taylanub: :)
2014-10-28T21:25:43Z turbofail: guess he's pretty busy teaching
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